Is the CARNIVORE DIET Safe? Dr. Layne Norton & Shawn Baker MD DEBATE!
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- Опубліковано 11 гру 2018
- We have two doctors in the house today, who are not only athletes themselves, but specialize in different ways of dieting. They are here today to debate Flexible Dieting vs. the Carnivore Diet as a way to maximize health and/or body composition.
Dr. Layne Norton is a bodybuilding/figure/physique coach and a proponent of flexible dieting as a way to guide his clients as well as himself nutritionally. He claimed his pro card at the age of 24, and is a professional powerlifter who set the raw squat record in 2015 IPF World Championships of 668lbs/303kg at 93kg. Layne obtained his PhD in Nutritional Sciences at the University of Illinois in 2010.
Dr. Shawn Baker is a doctor, an athlete, a father, and a proponent of a carnivorous lifestyle. He has competed in Strongman, powerlifting, the Highland Games, and track and field where he has either placed or broke records, and has played in semi-professional rugby. He has a BA in Biology, and obtained his Doctor of Medicine degree at Texas Tech University.
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Right off the bat I trust the guy without two cans of monster in front of him...
My thoughts exactly!
And how do you draw that conclusion if you only listened to the podcast instead of watching it?
BMGipe45 because I watched it and didn’t listen to it...
@@crisnguyen571 Fair enough. So why do you trust the guy who has a blatant bias towards his argument because that's literally his moneymaker right now?
BMGipe45 you seem upset. I side with what makes sense to me. That’s it. You’re looking too deep into a stranger’s opinion on the internet.
Dr Bakers thinking - this is a real nice desk, wow my hand is so big!
No...he was trying to be nice ...and not say what he was thinking...damn..Norton is an energy drink sucking fat little miget...
Lolol
@Chaitan Reddy Baker used to be fat. He looks great now from doing carni .
@Chaitan Reddy are you imagining things? There is nothing fluffy about his face. He has a chiseled jaw line.
@Chaitan Reddy then sir have some serious problems.
When layne said hunter gatherers only lived to 30 years old I completely checked out.
Yeah right. Do these guys consider ppl died due to famine, constant warfare, wild animals, the environment, and diseases that can be cured by modern medicine.
Ye that stat is total BS
The Inuit still typically live into their 50s in an environment too far away to rely on modern comforts. So that shoots a whole in that theory.
The masi (spelling) also commonly live to be 50/60s. Granted they are closer to modern comforts, however they still live very rudimentary and traditional lifestyles of rearing cattle and persistence hunting.
I could go on and on.
Also, life expectancy is an average. Up until a century or so, about half of children died before age 5, which lowered significantly the average.
The reason the life expectancy was so low back at that time is infant mortality...you get a cut back then and it goes septic and you die etc etc etc...It was not diet related issues lol
Layne agrees and disagrees with everyone....
That's a very attractive trait, shows he is nuanced and can recognise complexity.
@@PhilosophyLines shows he has zero sense for truth and is a little sophist agreeing because he is too much of a pussy to have any type of conflict or opposition
it is called sophism not nuance !
He was agreeing and disagreeing with himself
He is just a classical devils advocate
Layne “I believe in structured flexibility” Norton
tipical bodybuilding diet never worked for me, it lead me to bloating and binging ....I switch to carnivore, no cravings, no bloating, no binge eating....3 weeks in
Hows it going now?
Yeah how’s it going, weight loss?
A1Bokeh - She’s already binging on oreo’s and big macs. Like always, nobody follows these diets long term.
@@fluzzerr Ive been doing it for 2 years and I'm ripped. I wasted the previous 6 years following IIFYM, it's a complete waste of time, I could never control my weight because I never understood what was making me fat.
@@baldywaldy so what was it that was making you fat bro .... I need help .... I do IIFYM and as long as I work out and have my cheat meal here and there it works ... i started on strict keto but that didint work for me because no matter how much energy i had and how good i felt the strength was never there enough for me for my squats and hiit
The first time I heard Dr Baker, I thought he was crazy. The more I listened to him out of pure curiosity, the more he won me over with his arguments. I am still not carnivore, but the guy is a strong advocate for the movement.
Any new idea will struggle because there are never long term studies to support it. Doesn't mean its right or wrong necessarily. That being said I've been on it 2 weeks now. I had so much pain in my joints that I thought was something I would suffer with forever after my time in the Army, but in 2 weeks all that pain has gone away, down 8 lbs and feel great. We'll see how it goes long term.
Bro just give it a try for a month preferably 3 months. And if you start be aware of loose stools and urine a lot for the first 2 weeks....and you need lots of salt.
@@rbt772 have you found lots of benefit from it? If so what? I have been contemplating for half a year now, but I just haven't had the resolve to do it.
@@dreaminginnoother go to meatrx website and look for testimonials and read about what are the side effects before you start. Don't be shy just try.
@Will.J so you're implying it will make me super duper healthy and ripped? Because that would be very nice.
At the very least, Layne's performance here is a testament to laying off of the energy drinks.
Thought this was a debate, not the Layne Norton show.
Layne: Interrupts, bases entire argument on association, requires notebook, gives details that are not applicable.
Baker: listens patiently, replies concisely yet completely, does not require notebook.
Why would he need a note book when he only cites anecdotes.
Carnivore has never been studied as a diet. There's very little good research on any specific diet. The Virta Health study on low carb is the best recent study in several decades.
Requires notebook... that's just silly to criticize somebody for that. it wasn't a memory competition.
@@johnnypenso9574 There are tons of research on Keto. There are plenty of people who have been on the Carnivore diet for 10 years or more and have no harmful health issues, they have experienced nothing but benefits.
I believe you missed my point ^^^. It's a fact that the carnivore diet has never been studied in a clinical setting. The logical extension of that is that all we have are anecdotes which is why I made that response to Chris Richardson. It's also true that most diets have never been studied clinically and that the Virta Health study is one of the very few and it contained very positive outcomes for a low carb/high fat approach to eating which is very close to a carnivore diet.
Well done gentlemen! This is how all of these conversations/debates should take place. Informative, patient, courteous etc. Really, really helpful, thanks guys.
Well would have been nice if Layne would have let Shawn talk for longer than 2 minutes at a time 😂
I mean Baker was courteous and fair, but the other guy no he was on his phone when Baker was talking and took up most of the airspace of the talking
When I personally eliminate fiber from my diet I have way better appetite control. I didn't just try it for a day or two either. I actually followed Layne Nortons dietary advice and lost weigh and got lean but I was hungry constantly. I did it for around 9 months. Eating a keto diet I maintained my weigh and have barely any hunger cravings. Plus I honestly feel better. Again, anecdotal but that's all that matters for me personally. To each their own.
Same here, initially got lean following Layne’s advice (if it fits your macros and reverse diet bullshit) but was fucking starving all the time which led me to binge eat til I put all the weight back on ... have done carnivore and keto for many years on and off, I concur that carbs make me a lot puffier than the same caloric dose of fat.
This too has been my experience. I love macro counting as it has always allowed me my guilty pleasures in their moderate controlled amounts. And I got shredded using the principles of IIFYM, but man all I ever thought about was food. I too was constantly hungry as well....and I too would binge eventually at some point. Thanks for sharing your similar experience
Just another guy commenting with the same experience
@@Wavesurfa I find diets that have no variety bullshit because I get too many cravings. Eating less calories was the easiest way too loose weight.
@@thomasffrench3639
That’s where I am at these days, eat whatever but don’t overdo it and if I get a bit fat just eat a bit less for a week ☺️
Nothing is off limits and now I crave nothing coz I allow myself to have it
Dr. Baker is honestly starting to expose the people arguing against him
Ian Watson Baker has visible signs of inflammation in his face,
an affect of eating corpse flesh, as well,
visible gynecomastia. More like sagging boobs.
And so you think eating corpse flesh can be healthy?
Only in a seriously starving situation.
@@duaneyoutbe nah he recently took a pic showing off some results. You're just jealous vegan.
mryoyo I call it as I see it.
I’m not a vegan.
And it’s probably a 99.99% probability that you don’t even know what a vegan is.
I’m five years older than this guy and I have youthful looks he doesn’t have.
And I don’t hardly ever workout.
There is a video of Shawn wearing a baseball cap that’s white and black,
He sitting in a car talking and filming himself,
He’s wearing a tank top with black borders and maybe orange or pink color,
And his face is obviously affected with inflammation in the jaw and in the mouth.
Tony Soza
You will have to wait til I start posting videos.
@@duaneyoutbe Do you have actual science to back this up or are just talking out your ass? Layne eats meat as well, is he showing signs of inflammation in his face? GSP, one of the best and most athletic MMA fighters to ever compete, also eats meat. Is his face inflamed? Robb Wolf? Mark Sisson? David Goggins?
Does Dr. Baker get to talk on the Layne Norton show?
Just wondering.
Indeed Not......
He hasn't got anything to say because he's a quack or had his license revoked. He lost his mind and gives dangerous, batshit advice.
Esoteric Eclipse 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Congratulations on being 100% wrong. That takes true dedication.
@@elliotthedissident6077 He got it back and he lost it because he did not want to just DRUG & SHRUG like most of his profession...oh and he wanted to get to the root of the disease; which actually cuts into his profits. He makes his living cutting. So simply put, it was office politics that got his license revoked.
@@unicornadrian1358 true dedication indeed!!!!
Shawn dominated that. Constantly interrupting made Layne appear to be defensive all the time and therefore weak in his convictions and lacking confidence in his statements. Shawn was patient and confident, like a teacher talking, without being condescending, to a student.
very observant, well done.
Actually, if you spend a lot of time with really good scientists, yoi notice, the good ones are not typically hyperconfident. The data is just too nuanced....the bullshitters that are never wrong or never say "I do not know" are just fill of shit.
@@janstone2365 my father is a bio-chemist, my mother is a medical statistics analyst. I've spent enough time around academics, and debated enough with data and logic driven individuals, to know when an argument is failing due to a lack of understanding as opposed to over confidence. In my opinion, this was a lose due to a lack of personal understanding, Layne has not tested his perspective or theories enough to be confident with the conclusions. Shawn has. It shows in the debate. Therefore I place more gravity in Shawn's opinions.
@@Adrian-km7jx WHAT THE FUCK did you watch you moron ! ? It was quite the opposite ! Shawn don't know what the hell he's talking about. They are not on a same level
Layne provides really lousy arguments. Does not counter any arguments convincingly.
And sucks up all the talking time making him look really bad here
Michael Harrington yep the caffeine hike didn’t help him.
That's his career in a nutshell.
Layne is smaller than most natural guys and he has been on roids for years. Why would any natural athlete trust him? He doesn't get how natural athlete bodies work and doesn't get the huge health impacts of fasting and meat for natural athletes.
@@MrMhtmht Fasting has nothing to do whether you are natural or not what are you on about
I wish we could get a debate where the moderator forces them to stay on each topic long enough to really hash it out with enough input from both sides.
Jesus, Layne drones on, on and on.
He has a lot of knowledge.
@@stevenhewes1990 He literally said we don't know if sugar causes obesity.
@@jonw9119 well, on its own it doesn't lol. Too much intake of probably everything causes obesity. Just don't eat like a dickhead, and you don't become a fatty.
@@jonw9119 because sugar consumption has gone down while obesity has gone up.
16 months carnivore, still no scurvy. Carnivore is not causing metabolic disease that is for sure.
I'm a year in. No negative side effects. plenty of positive ones
I've been seeing good results on keto. I wish there were more people talking about benefits of carnivore above keto. Dr Berry is the only example I know of.
Oh no, you are killing yourself! LMAO. I'm beginning to transition from Keto to Carnivore. Mainstream society is so ignorant to listen to what "conventional wisdom" is telling us. Obesity has been on the rise for the past 30 years due to high carb, high sugar diets.
@@patrickh709
Keto person: no longer obese. A1c down below normal. Normal blood pressure. No more insulin. Off psych meds.
Average sugar eating American: BuT wUt AboUT Ur ChoLesterOl
@@Chris-zd8cs shawn Baker, hpo podcast, carnivore cast, food lies, healthcoach kait, paul saladino, phil escott,
Not gonna take advice from a guy drinking two cans of monster back to back. Shawn baker seemed to have alot more mental/cognitive clarity by his concise speech versus Layne who would stumble over his words often.
He carries himself like an overly hyped up millennial vegan. Talks too much and sounds pompous. Its no wonder Baker resonates with people more.
Carnivore is known to increase mental clarity
@@bigjim7561you are correct
Joshua Giuseppe Fontanella Or do mentally clear people choose to go carnivore? 🤔😉
@@bigjim7561 lol good question 😂
Layne is new to me. He rubs me the wrong way.
Same here. Never instantly disliked anyone until now. Wow....
Yep. Me too. He shouldn’t drink monster and debate he can’t shut up. Baker is the man.
He is a prick...but that doesn't mean he is wrong.
Too much bro, not enough science...
Too much weight training ,not enough cardio bro.
Dr. Shawn Baker is very knowledgeable and just a pleasure to hear his interviews.
layne norton you lost the debate
All I can say on this is I started out Keto with 20 grams or less of veg and when I went basically Carnivore that's when I stopped having the inflammation & bloating and stopped having the IBS symptoms, have also been able to come off several medications that I was taking and feel so much better, no more IBS, gout, osteoarthritis, cholesterol med's that I took on a daily basis, and I don't feel I have to eat 6 times a day to have energy. Meat Heals in my book...
How's the meat diet going, are you still on it?
@@Ki77a_WhSpRz The question indeed.
Wow. It’s a miracle. !!!
Cool anecdotal evidence. That is worth nothing in science.
@@professorxavier9692 Anecdotal evidence, is still evidence, lol.
Very educational! I think debates like this is a great way to learn, and not be forced into one side.
Great discussion. I like the clips of them working out between...the barbell and exercise is like a peace pipe. Also, really glad that so many people are having success with the carnivore diet, but I'm relieved that I can still have variety in my diet...
And NO. I will not cut off the charred parts of grilled meat...that's sacrilege.
Large spent a lot of time talking about nothing. Baker made few points that were concise and deliberate. Seemed like Layne wasn't ready for this
He was as ready as he could be with a poorly supported viewpoint.
Drinking a monster doesn’t discredit your knowledge on a subject matter so I don’t know why so many are clinging to that. Most people watching this follow Mark and are more likely to be fans of the carnivore diet so the bias against Layne is extreme in this comment section. I’m not a huge fan of Layne but tend to agree here. Carnivore is another extreme just like being vegan but on the opposite end. Humans have molars and canines for a reason. We produce the enzymes to digest carbohydrates, proteins, and fats for a reason. We are biologically designed to eat plant matter and meat. Not just one or the other.
Watching Shawn in the last 5 minutes of this was fascinating. Great self restraint Shawn! Props!
Shawn is the man, a truly proper masculine presence, very grounded.
Mark you failed as a moderator.
Lifting heavy objects is his specialty, not deep-thinking.
A guy drinking monster and talking about grilled meat causing cancer; Layne clearly skipped the chapter on “relative risk”.
no correlation to monster and cancer or anything negative really especially sugar free ones
correct even in artificial sweeteners tested in doses up to 5 times found in a normal diet soda no correlation to disease. unfortunately, the majority of views from this video are people who probably searched up 'the carnivore diet' because are after a quick fix and act as if the last 50 years of nutrition research including fruit and vegetables don't exist.
The problem is that the research is absent of people on a diet of meat and zero refined foods. All research on fruits and vegetables use a baseline of the SAD
Yeah, the more I see Layne Norton, the more convincing he is as a paid shill. His insistence on CICO (calories in, calories out etc) being correct and nothing else matters was the big giveaway for me, as he is intelligent enough, and has access to the same data everyone else does. But for some reason (probably being paid to), he deliberately misinterprets that data and throws his lot in with the 'mainstream narratives'. He looks like he is intentionally defending the mainstream narrative while attacking any science that says otherwise (not to mention he intentionally tries to discredit other doctors).
@@zalamael wtf are you even saying. CICO is the most important factor in weight loss. Random conspiracy theories are not going to fly here bud
Really hard to take this guy seriously when he has 2 cans of Monster next to him
Oh my god 2 cans of monsters. Well clearly if he has 2 cans of mobsters obviously must not know anything. It's amazing to me people can't see how silly they sound when they say things like this.
@@Sick96stang It shows that he doesn't practice what he preaches about health. "Do as I say, not as I do."
@@patrickh709 practice what you preach and having knowledge are completely separate things. A person can be extremely knowledgeable on a health issue but choose to not follow that. Not sure how else to explain this.
@@JasonFinlay I'd take you a bit more seriously if you provided any actual reasoning behind this. As timeless as "you're dumb" is, it doesn't provide room for progression.
@@Sick96stang the fact that you think it's ok for some1 to take a firm stance in a health debate against another doctor and have monsters as a energy source,......is crazy to me.
stopped watching when the other guy said that "We can't say sugar causes obesity." Ok...
Alieeeson von Megatron if you look at it scientifically you can’t.... he is saying this because someone can eat 100 grams of pure sugar every day and not gain weight and actually lose weight. He never said it was your healthiest option...
Totally agree Alieeeson, I'm not even going to waste my time. I was down to lettuce, meat and celery with carrots and still my body wouldn't lose weight with a deficit.
Gather, Create, Live with Leslie H. So if that was all you were eating and you wouldn’t lose weight then what was it? Or you were over eating those few selections and actually not in a deficit.
Energy balance. If you people don’t know what that means it’s not even worth commenting. I eat 150g sugar a day and have single digits body fat. Count your macros not just your carbs.
@@gathercreatelivewithleslie8340 so you've figured out a way to break the laws of thermodynamics...
Layne put forth the most nonsensical arguments I've ever heard. He just talks in circles. First thing he should learn is that epidemiology is a very low-level science that should not be used to base opinions on - especially diet epidemiology which depends on people's honesty and memory. Nothing could be more inaccurate.
2 year old comment but SO TRUE - all the nutrition data is absolute shit
Most of the time they stop asking half way thru and just make up the data they think the participants would have given 😂
My grandpa has been eating grilled meats several times a week for years in Mexico. Hes 96 and strong as a horse, he aslo eats eggs and beans fried in lard. The difference is most of his food has always been organic non processed. He also walks a lot and has never been overweight. I think that has more to do with it than anything.
its probably all of it,
Sounds like a stud. God bless him.
my grampa have smoked cigarettes for 70 years, that does not prove cigarettes are not bad for you.
A life spent calorie restricting and working and doing zone 2 type cardio.
It's the king for longevity. Studies are quite clear.
Does he also eat a lot of corn tortillas and drink beer? I think it's all relative.
I cant have a big person conversation with some one drinking a Monster drink, much less take diet advice. Anyway, I have eaten clean for 15+ years. the BEST thing I have ever done to date is the carnivore. in days I could feel a difference. Strength shot up fast and just feel awesome!
I am a nutritional biochemist. I can say with certainty that energy drinks in normal intake have no negative outcomes. Would you care to have a conversation on the biochemistry of this with me?
@@CryptoKeeper36 Many things we consume with normal ingestion may have no negative outcomes. But these energy drinks are toxic. Worse than colas
@@larshader9265 What ingredient do you mean? Where is it you get this information? I can't find any studies or evidence of any kind that support this. Everything is toxic by the way. Vitamin C is more toxic then aspartame.
@@CryptoKeeper36 www.energydrinkslawsuit.com/5-most-potentially-harmful-ingredients-energy-drinks/
@@larshader9265 That is a scam website created by some lawyers trying to make a buck. It is full of false and misleading claims. They haven't made a post in 3 years and had 0 successful lawsuits.
So Layne first disses antropology, to then use it in his next argument. Does the same with anecdotal evidence. He literally does everything he complains about himself
😂😂😂😂
Layne lost my confidence when he said that he doesn’t care about the ancestral human diet.
Yeah, how could two million years of evolution possibly have an effect on our physiology? It’s anti science not to take paleo seriously. And yes, we can know a lot about it because we know where humans evolved and what the climate was like. There was absolutely no way that we were living on fibrous veggies. Go to Southern Africa and find me some fibrous vegetables to sustain human health. Good luck.
@@coffeemachtspass Paleo humans lived and ate like shit, they shouldn't be gold standard by which we should strive for, especially when there's so much misunderstanding of how paleo people ate. You should monitor how diet affects you now, not how it affected ancestral humans. I don't care if they weren't living on fibrous veggies, I care if fibrous veggies are good for me right now.
Meister Dejv
But the point is that what humans ate in the past for millions of years has conditioned what we can eat healthfully today. Why do you think pandas can only eat crappy bamboo? Because they got stuck in the bamboo alley for millions of years and can’t get out now. Bamboo sucks, but it is what they have got. Back to humans. They clearly do badly on some diets and better on others. I contend that the key to understanding why is their evolutionary history.
Ultimately, suit yourself as an individual, but the science of the matter is not a matter of mere preference.
@@coffeemachtspass Bamboos are inefficient for pandas, they'd do better on other food and it's the same for people too. Also, humans of the past had to eat inefficiently in order to get any calorie they can get, before becoming conditioned to something. Being conditioned to something doesn't mean you shouldn't try something else, especially when nowadays we have multiple mechanisms of bypassing negative aspects of certain foods. Even paleo humans developed ability to cook food which allowed them to better absorb or absorb nutrition at all of many different food groups.
Summary: Layne: Need fiber because it protects when looking at rates of cancer. Shawn: Only essential thing is meat and the fat in meat. Mark: Rules change when you don’t eat carbs or fiber, not enough data on these individuals yet. So requirement could be different.
Arguing against Layne is as easy as saying a few things then letting him contradict himself.
Absolutely!
😂😂😂fuckin A
He is the worst behaving nutrition expert. It leads him around. It. makes him make those mistakes.
@@drsaintdc yeah him and Vegatable Police. At least the latter is entertaining about it.
Unfollowed him this year...his insta posts are often toxic
Good job Mark.
This is a good podcast
Norton has a castle built out of associations.
And monsters
Debate? 10 min in Dr. Baker literally has uttered two sentences.
And he still said more than lane
Never heard this Dr. Layne before, but I do believe he likes to hear himself speak. Secondly, if 2 Doctors are trying to give health advice, the one without a Monster drink is who I'm assuming cares about health more.
Great observation
Such a shallow way to judge someone
Layne is very knowledgeable and generally impartial. His approach is evidence based. He said, if in future new evidence appears he will adjust his position. It's how science works.
Never heard of a person who looks like he is 70 and eats only one product. Never heard of variaty, lol
I'm only a month in on carnivore. Down ten lbs. Inflammation WAAAAAY down! My chronically inflamed rt toe, which was usually red and swollen from minimal activity, ( no not gout I have some cysts there) was completely back to normal after 4-5 days on Carnivore. And it has help up with strenous exercise including sled pushing and pulling. No inflammation at all. I'm urinating stronger, (less prostate inflammation,) and my eyesight seems to be improving. Tried many diets before this, which never worked. That's anecdotal, but for me, it's the real deal so far.
HEY LANE!
GET OFF THR ADDERALL AND STOP INTERUPTING BAKER SO GOD DAMN MUCH!
This ain't the lane Norton show, it's meant to be a conversation or "debate"
Luke Robinson *Layne
Lol homies got 2 monster energy drinks in front of him, he already lost the debate to me 🤣
Wow Layne sure talks alot..............
Yeah, it’s like blah blah blah! Gives me a headache.
When will this stupid "cavemen lived until 30" error ever die? And, we don't habe to wildly speculate about what prehistoric man ate. If they lived in northern climates, they would have eaten what was available. Ask a Sami or an Innuit. Broccoli?
Richard Beaumont the average age of mortality may have been that age because of a violent life but it’s not relevant to any discussion that it is used in. . I looked into this more, I knew Plato died at 82. In 500 BC. This didn’t make sense from what they teach us, well it turns out if we just take out violent deaths our longevity hasn’t changed in at least the last 3000 years probably more. But they love to sell us that myth.
@@slikasrick exactly. Julius Caesar was cut down "in his prime" at age 44. The examples are endless. But 50% infant mortality and deaths by war and childbirth bring down the average to a meaningless level. The Athenian army expected men to serve until they were 60, and that was in the days of long forced marches and physical combat. I'd be surprised if most 55 year olds today could handle it.
One thing that I wonder about is the fact that most of what we call vegetables did not even exist 10000 years ago, so how can it be argued that we evolved to eat "vegetables"?
@@slikasrick Well, really, it is all about infant mortality.
@@douglascarkuff1969 Given that we are prone to diabetes with "too much" carbs I would think that we evolved first as meat eaters and carb eating was an adaptation for survival when meat was not readily available.
Norton is so worried about fiber and how it protects our bodies all while sipping on his monster energy drink.
Man talking about what's healthy and theres a chemical drink (monster) sitting right in front of him
What is a "chemical drink" exactly?
ooooooohhno!!! something is made out of chemicals!!!
@@full-timepog6844 you know how stupid you sound. It's chemicals does that sound like something a human should be consuming?
@@NamelessViking01 you are right. Chemicals are dangerous.
Baker crushed this debate. Never knew who Layne Norton was but after seeing this disgraceful display and his inability to argue points I certainly do not want to hear more from him.
This podcast episode should’ve been called “Dr. Layne Norton talks the entire time.”
Great debate !
Great debate
Layne made the poorest scientific argument possible on this topic, I would guess his PhD is in sales rather than in the research field.
There’s only on way to find out. Do it and see for yourself. This is day three for me and are amazed at the results!
Dude, dude, .....oxalates, lectin, sugar, indigestible cellulose, unavailable nutrients = veg and fruits... how do you not know this.
MEAT
Ikr! But if you cook some foods, it breaks it down to be more edible
Carnivore Diet has significantly improved my Health Status over the heavily plant-based Omnivorous Diet I was on. My Anecdote is my own personal proof. +1 Shawn Baker
Use to follow Layne.... No chance I'll listen to him anymore! Shawn was on point throughout the discussion. Ive made so much more progress on Carnivore than on high carb
How about moderate carb? Who ever said layne promotes high carb? Lol
@@Sublimemelancholy People don't understand moderation lol either it has to be high carb vegan or carnivore.
Yeah they want to commit to a religion. A religion is either X or Y. It cannot be a shade of grey apparently
I have a friend who's in constant GI distress and keeps trying more and more fiber to make it stop. Classic insanity
great debate!
Loved this
Layne always sets up a straw man...if there is one exception, it can’t be generally true...no one is saying EVERYONE should be a carnivore. I like Layne and he has lots of good things to say and even subscribe to his channel but he gets on his horse about certain topics...the high meat diet studies often have to many confounding factors that aren’t controlled, eg vegans are much less likely to smoke than people who eat meat...the confounding factors are much more likely to be the cause.
kid have a bs "nutiyion" bizz going on,gotta be multitarget
Layne should debate Dr Paul Saladino, but he doesn't accept! He hasn't the guts for it!
ua-cam.com/video/l6eg369y_so/v-deo.html
Honestly, Dr Baker is way more informed.
Baker is so strong at his age and not even a single carb. Insane
No its not...carbs have nothing to do with strength
Josh Eakins well, glucose is a faster burning fuel source. I’ve always been stronger in the gym when running off of carbs, but I feel better throughout the day when running off of fat. I don’t mind being weaker in the gym because I still feel good. But carbs do help with strength
Only recently right!?
@@josheakins5137 that's just dumb. Is it essential? No but are the athletes in the world strongest men going with out carbs?
No carbs, just test.
Northern European hunter gatherer's of the past didn't have a lot of fruit or vegetables, they're main food source was animals. So it would stand to reason that descendants of Northern Europeans would do much better on a mostly meat diet. Disease, plagues, wars, weather etc were much more of an issue with regards to death.
Exactly, thats why people died early and we cant tell IF they had any source of cancer or whatsoever. So actually coming up with those "Well, X hundred years ago we ..." is not a point at all. Because people died early anyways, so they couldnt really develop any source of real illness we have today, lets say many different types of cancer, obesity and so on and also there wasn't any science around to actually figure it out.
In my opinion it makes no sense at all to actually mention anything we did more than 100 years ago, because we life longer now, so the goal might be to NOT die in your mid 30s, we have way more poisons around us, in the air, water etc. and also we have pretty decent information on what MIGHT harm us and what not. So why be stupid enough to question things you probably dont need instead of just avoiding them? I'm not saying you should get rid of everyting that someone say is bad for you ... and probably have that one study that proofs is ... but you can actually eat less of that shit. I understand why scientists argue about specific points, because thats what scientists do, but for us "normal" human beings, we can just be like "Oh, that MIGHT be harmfull? Maybe i should eat less of that shit instead of going totally ham dicussing it day in and out on the internet".
scandinavians where the last hunters and gatherers in europe
@@JohnnyHandsomeCapital thats a bunch of bullshit we dont live longer now. only the median age of the pupulation has risen. eskimo's lived to over 100 on only meat before they got shit from the white man.
Most Europeans are genetically more closely related to ancient farmers than ancient hunter gatherer populations.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4170574/
Think of the creativity and intelligence required by ancient farmers for the new paradigm in food sourcing that they introduced - to go from hunting animals and berries to cultivating them. They were some of the most intelligent people to walk the Earth, why would anyone disavow that?
@Ariel Valenzuela Thats one very small single aspect of my argumentation ... and it isnt even relevant for the discussion topic. I just wanted to make a point that it makes litterally no sense at all to compare humans lifestyles hundreds or thousands of years ago to nowadays. And i still think that my point it valid.
Lane reminds me off a Jacked Charlie from "it's always sunny in Philadelphia"
After I read this I can't unsee it 😂😂😂😭😭😭
Finally somebody said it!
jimmy pena LMAO!
Sensory specific satiety is one advantage to less variety in the diet. There is also data to show that some ancestral populations had access to a ton of plant foods but they only enjoyed a handful of them. I think that data comes from Stephan Guyanet (forgive me if I miss quote).
I think it’s cool they had a workout together before hand.
Also, I loved that it wasn’t a debate but a discussion. I hate the “meathead” vs. “soyboy” sanctimonious vegan debates.
This was great!
I like dr. Layne and have some valid points but in this debate BIG thumb up for dr. Shawn. :-)
"Not going to die from meat, but not getting the protective effects of fiber." Layne 9:30. The protective effects of fiber are only needed if you are consuming a high carb, plant toxin filled diet. As are many recommendations for certain vitamins. The protection is needed only for the carb/plant diet. So if you aren't eating the toxins you don't need the protection from those toxins, protection which often doesn't adequately protect fully against the inflammation and toxicity in the first place.
Citation for that claim?
Awesome debate both guest were really good. I think Shawn showed a much better composure but nevertheless for me layne norton presented better arguments.
@shawn baker But if you're already eating high protein, moderate fat, but also plenty of vegetables and fruits (no grains, legumes, or seed oils), would eliminating those fruits and vegetables and replacing with saturated fats need healthy Dr Baker?
Layne Norton is proof you can become a doctor with below-average intelligence. Dude gives me a headache
Ouch! (But, true dat!)
He's not a medical doctor. He's a researcher.
Hey, bro! Shut up! Lay off the energy drinks (artificial), and go eat a steak.........
That's my Dr. Shawn Baker, love you man!!!
That was really interesting. The only thing, though that I really learned is that we may never have the proper studies to figure out how nutrition impacts the body.
25:50 Shawn just completely tunes out Layne and starts playing with his hand on the table, lmao
So near the end Shawn Baker is in a way saying... well science is off so we can't be sure you're right and we can't be sure I'm wrong.
It was kind of fun to see Layne get triggered though lol
Science is clear. You need nutrients from sources other than meat; otherwise you will get sick and die.
Chosen Two then why are carnivores getting sick and checkin out
@@richardpartin9378 Did you see this guy's blood test? He has low testerone and diabetes lmao
Chosen Two yes I did see his blood test. He isn’t diabetic. What is the definition of diabetes... insulin resistance. He is extremely insulin sensitive. His blood sugar is high in the morning which is something that has been seen in low carb high level athletes and the assumption is to provide the energy needed for intense exercise. His a1c was high but his insulin sensitivity extremely low. You have to understand this diet doesn’t have any science. Never even been really studied. But I do know that 99% of the people that try it, including myself, notice a lot of benefits.
@@Ainttrippin There is 0 evidence that an all meat diet does/doesn't supply you with everything you need. Mikhaila Peterson had blood work done before and after carnivore and her bloodwork improved as well as her health (extreme auto immune issues).
i would also love to hear them explain why you’re better off not stimulating the production of butyrate and propionate
Would like to see the entire interview
Next time, it would be great to see a real debate instead of “The Layne Show.“
Really hard to respect Layne with 2 Monster drinks in front of him. Obviously his Adrenals are depleted. Thank you Shawn Baker for talking true science but more importantly suggesting that you should be your on true test of how you feel!
A) That is a fallacy as it has no bearing on his argument
B) Do you have any evidence that Monster leads to Andrenal depletion?
Thank goodness for fast forward.
I think the most convincing way to have these conversations is have a screen and put up all the studies people want to use as proof of their point. Every time someone mentions a study, I want to know what it said and how it overlooked facts and took guesses and thus came up with conclusions. Or else what you usually get is a constant back and forth without the ability to prove. What has been the most convincing to me is just seeing what plant toxins do on a molecular level to the body. Thats undeniable, but if you just talk about well its good bc it makes you poop more, you are ignoring a TON of facts. Or if someone mentions antioxidants in plants but ignores all the toxins in that same plant, then who cares about the antioxidant? When you see meat has antioxidants and helps make them and also has no toxins then the faulty studies are shown to be even more faulty, The science doesnt lie. People refer to these bad studies as science. The real science is what it does, what do the toxins do?
This type of convo would be great as a series of arguments, where each guy pulls up the study in real time, and we can see it and it can be picked apart by the other, because when I read studies, its really easy to pick them apart, The reasons vegans for example are so convinced what they do is healthy is because they have a ton of missing information and parrot inconclusive studies and studies that ignore 90 percent of what the plant does and focuses only on small benefits that are outweighed by the accumulation of negative benefits. As soon as people can see these studies for how crappy they are, they will quickly start to think off themselves and be open to the truth, until then, everyone was come out of it thinking's , "well.. they both had good points " even though there is clearly one right side. Once you know the science, then all the "well this is so confusing bc im told something is bad then its good another day" talk goes away and you see we are misinformed not because the science is changing, but because the propaganda is based off of ridiculous studies and cherry picked.
BTW, thats a ridiculous amount of caffeine that guy is drinking, maybe he needs it to balance out the insulin crash of his diet.
Shawn Baker wins the debate.
Ben Steele yeah,
he had those drooping man boobs, and the inflammation in the face. Especially the neck, chin, and jaw.
Don’t believe it, go look at his recent UA-cam videos.
He is very young too. Only 52.
@@duaneyoutbe He's also very tall, a big guy! Man boobs? It's his body type. Meat didn't make him look older? He's only done it for 3 years...he looked like this when started it.
WarriorHealth
WarriorHealth
this Shawn guy,
He has a great genetic structure,
I bet he looked really good in his youth.
But he ruined his health with his eating habits.
He could have kept his youth into his 70’s and maybe even into his 80’s,
But dirty early eating destroys the gut,
then the lack of nutrition and the unhealthy gut flora together,
destroys the youth one used to so abundantly possess.
When I say dirty early eating.
I’m referring to all food that has been affected by glyphosate.
Glyphosate was DESIGNED to destroy the gi tract of bugs,
Pesticide/humicide,
yeah,
problem is, we are a bug.
So it destroys our health too.
Old people get the opposite of
diverticulitis,
Verticulosis i.e.
(can’t hold their shi t in)
So they need a diaper when they get older.
Younger people get these affects,
IBS irritable bowel syndrome,
Crohn disease
Ciliacs disease.
Lactose intolerance
Etc..
All of this is from glyphosate and some other self sabotaging eating practices.
Organic everything is the way to survive these maladies.
Ronnie Coleman for example.
What a wonderful man, but he isn’t even aware of that when he ate, and what he ate, it destroyed him. His physical injuries were only part of his fall.
He was eating corpse big time, and filthy corpse at that.
The food in the commercial food industry is filthy filthy, poison everywhere.
And this is
ON PURPOSE
The people who WERE in charge,
they set things up to commit genocide on the majority of the planet thru poisoning the food supply.
Hidden in plain sight.
Written in u.s. policy.
Right in plain sight.
Scary scary
for those not in the know.
But things are changing today.
ua-cam.com/video/9RPUhf4kEQs/v-deo.html
@@duaneyoutbe Eating Corpse?? Common, thats stupid talk...Plants are living too. Your eating their corpse? Enough with that Vegan scare word.
I completely agree with you on Organic is the way to go! Also grass fed meat. I agree dangerous chemicals are very bad. I completely believe in vegetables too. However grain is a "famine" or "survival" food. Grains are issue I believe. We are not designed to eat them long term.
Said no one ever😂😂😂
i would love to hear them talk about the effects of a high protein diet on longevity.
No! Stick to high fat moderate protein!
Listen to Dr. Anthony Chaffee for that.
@@danimal2659which podcast
I’m watching this in 2022 and you would think it was 2022. You are absolutely correct and relevant
I agree I eliminated healed my gut then added fruit vege back in and I feel so much better and I’m losing weight since I added back in with meat dairy eggs etc
Can’t finish a sentence to save his own life
im carnivore for life thanks to Dr. Shawn Baker. I feel great!!!
im not taking advice from a man who drinks monster energy drinks....
how is carnivore working for you now that its been 2 years since this comment?
You probably already have clogged arteries. But good for you, just dig your own grave ..
@@cherryl225 99% sure he became one of those carnivores who also eats frut and vegetables and rice and eggs and dairy and milk and potatoes etc...you know...basic carnivore stuff you dont need
Could I say this about the carnivore diet. As I'm doing more research into nutrition and other fields I see its application. And how you could be healthy with it currently I'm not in a position to try this effectively and not skewing the data. When I'm in a position to do a proper carnivore diet such as different cuts of meat for difficult vitamins considering different body parts store different nutrients. I will definitely try it when I'm in a position to do so but also overcome my fear of eating organ meats such as heart ,liver,and gizzard. I've eaten a high protein diet and meat and I like it from a performance perspective but I think it's important to eat organ meats and to rotate cuts for the different vitamin and nutrient contents. Current I'm doing a low carb one meal a day diet that's somewhat keto. I'm into athletics and train 5-6 days a week so I'm interested in performance and improving recovery. When I'm able to implement carnivore properly I'll let you know my results and even ask how I can improve my diet in terms of carnivore. I've listened to Shawn and you and Rogan. Currently I'm ok with my diet with my situation being homeless and worrying about crazed vegans skewing data. I'm also willing to try vegan sometime to act as a mediator but currently my diet is the best I can do with my resources.
This is an interesting question that I posted to other pro carnivore proponents. Neither of them answered my question. My question is, how does fiber, for example psyllium husk, affect the low carb carnivore diet?. I always was told that fiber was a zero sum carb, because while beneficial to gut bacteria (according to modern science) it is not a sorved by the body and therefore is no impact to your nutritional profile, but great for your gut bacteria health.
If that is true one would assume it should not impact the diet in the same manner that a fruit would for example, because the fruit has additional components of carbohydrates that are unavoidable.
I recently started a carnivore high fat very low carb diet. I've lost 28 pounds in the first week and then have maintained a 220 weight +-2 pounds in the second week, while eating about 1700 calories on average. The weight loss period I was eating much less calories, but I have not gained any weight when I increased my intake from 500 or less calories to 1700ncalories. Body composition has changed dramatically. I am hungry only once per day, generally after 20 -22 hours, which means I naturally fast for those intermittent hours, without any effort such as when I ate normalized American diet where intermittent fasting seemed like a constant battle.
My skin has become much nicer, my noticable inflammation has completely visually disappeared, I have great energy, and my body temperature is always comfortable. My arthritis has seemingly gone and my face no longer suffers from histamine responses due to certain foods or combinations of foods.
I believe that the carnivore or extreme keto diet is beneficial. I have allowed up to 10% carbs by eating some strawberries and raspberries usually in a bowl with pure whipping cream liquid. I eat lots of avocado and I'll eat herb salad and reintroduced some tomato and red bell pepper , (both nightshades) for a couple days to test my response. So far I seem to be clear. Two weeks ago, I lived in fear of food. My face would break out with redness, deep bloody cracks, peeling flaky skin, hair loss of eyebrows and redness oiliness itchiness and my scalp would itch constantly as well as my beard areas. My eyelids would swell and crack as well and get sores in the cold which were very painful. All of that happened almost constantly in a cycle and was affected by some foods or all good of just my insane imagination it seemed. I though t I was allergic to all foods and was exasperated trying to "elimination diet" my way to discovery. My kids would laugh every time I would say "I think I am allergic to ... X food". They would roll their eyes and say, dad, you always say this food or that food...!.
Suddenly, when I stopped eating all carbs, it disappeared. Not only that, I can now eat cheese again and milk products again, which I have not been able to enjoy for the last 10 to 12 years. It's crazy. I believe for some humans, carbs are dangerous. I have struggled with weight for the last 15 years and in fact tried using NOOM to lose weight which is a psychological method of teaching food science (based on calorie in calorie out). Using their logic I logged all foods and ate low calorie food to keep my sense of fullness (popcorn, artichoke hearts, grapes). I lost 4 pounds in 8 months and then gained 12 pounds when I gave up since it was so hard to do while starving constantly. On the flip side, eating high fat, I eat once per day, fill myself to satiety and never overeat, and never throughout the day feel that I must eat something or I'll collapse. It's truly amazing. Trailer life changing.
I love it at about 26:09 Dr.Baker is so bored of this guys rambling on and on.......he starts zoning out on his hand on the table.
I think Dr Baker was trying to control himself from punching Layne in the face
There is no long term study on either diets!! It's purely anecdotal Do what works for you. Personally, I thrive off of beef and veggies. Never let the bias, confirm what your body agrees with.
A lot of truth to that
Have you tried eliminating veggies?
I went mostly carnivore, and have strength like never before, as well as no joint pains
Layne talks to much because he knows he's wrong so is trying to make a point but ends up contradicting himself! Baker is the man 💪💪🥩🥩🥩
Layne just loves arguing which is why I never watch him. I love your stuff Mark but skipping this one. Sorry mate but that guy is a turnoff
Paul Saladino ate Layne for breakfast the other week.
Norton salad
Dr. Baker owned this debate. Everything he spoke on was realistic and applicable. Dr. Norton spoke redundantly and referenced research that is questionable at best. I also found it very disrespectful when Dr. Norton was on his phone during the debate while Dr. Baker listened intently to what he was saying.
Mark hit the nail on the head in this video. When he asserts that Shawn implies, when you change how you eat, it changes some of the landscape to these issues being talked about (paraphrased). If your needs are met with just a few certain foods, then adding more and experimenting becomes a mental thing, not necessity. This is what the downfall is. If you don't need variety, then you don't need it.
When Layne says, there's a lot of benefits of eating fruits, vegetables, and adding fiber, it leads to the point above. If it is not needed, then why does that matter? It doesn't. It becomes what we are taught, which is always changing. It becomes or view, justified or not.
Our brains are made of fat (EPA & DHA) and cholesterol. All classes of steroid hormones, glucocorticoids, mineralocorticoids, and sex hormones, are derivatives of cholesterol. If this is the case, sugar is not a primary source of fuel for the body. It NEEDS fat and cholesterol.