Autogynephilia: The Sexual Orientation Fueling Transition | with Phil Illy
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- Опубліковано 15 лют 2023
- Phil’s book: t.co/zC21tIYHvC
Compelled to understand his desire to transition, Phil Illy dove deep into the research on male sexuality, especially where it intersects with transgenderism. What he discovered, he believes, has been intentionally ignored by the trans community and various allies that push for affirmation-or-bust standards of care. He is currently finishing his book-length report on this topic, and hopes his work can spur honest discussion and sensible policy.
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Sometimes we lose the forest for the trees. The labels “paraphilia” vs “sexual orientation” regarding “agp” are an example here. Let’s zoom out and see the forest again: everyone has weird sexual behaviors. Everyone has the ability to choose whether or not to engage in those behaviors based on whether they are serving us or others. If you have sexual behavior that is harmful to your self then you should stop. If you can’t stop, get help from a therapist who can help you stop. If you have sexual behaviors that are harmful to others, then you should stop and/or people should and probably will stop you. The nuances of why we are attracted to what we’re attracted to or how that differs from what others are or aren’t attracted by or what strange kinks we may have or how we find sexual release mentally or physically really doesn’t matter beyond what I said in the previous sentences. Men who are turned on by pretending to be (their fantasies of) women is harmful to the men and to society and thus will never be accepted as a sexual orientation. It’s a CHOICE just like all our sexual choices. Compulsive sexual offending isn’t a “sexual orientation.” 🙄
Thank you for spelling this out!
@@BenjaminABoyce Thanks for giving it a read, and for your calmversations.
This came up in the most recent calmversation with Phill Illy (literally yesterday)... Phill thought that from a classically liberal standpoint, most males expressing AGP only do so to a mild extent and it's hard for him to see how that harms others, and I tend to agree... he notes an individual will generally need to grapple with shame and a discordant self-image as this sexual interest develops and unsettles their concept of masculinity; for those with such a strong manifestation of it is better off going down the self-acceptance route. He also says that this is how he sees it on the individual scale, but when zoomed out to society he thinks it probably isn't a good thing for society from the standpoint of healthy heterosexual relationships that produce and raise children... I too think that the tendancy in a marriage, pretty much independent of culture, the health of the male female bond will be very negatively impacted by the male partner having little interest in their wife and very interested in themselves as a woman. This is not good for the kids either.
I have some further thoughts... in this day and age of ubiquitous and divergent pornograpjy, teenagers should be warned about what sexual appetites they pursue and the potential consequences to their sexual functioning, addiction/self control, potentially painful self image consequences, etc. as there's definitely the progression of decreased arousal from vanilla and the pull towards extreme depictions and even "perversion". Phill's point that mild AGP doesn't hurt anyone, I could agree with conditional on it being stable and not disturbing to the self or partners, as you may increase your appetite by feeding it. In general, teens should NOT even indulge porn or fantasy that does unsettle them (even if only post climax). That discipline should be built, as should discipline to avoid porn addiction... overall one should not even engage with porn, and certainly at the very least not with websites that have a variety that includes that which lies outside the limits of what one would ever want to get pulled into.
I also wonder... for someone who doesn't experience shame with indulging AGP, is it possible it could nurture a kind of narcissism or personality disruption?
@@jtzoltan Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I think it’s extremely obvious to women that men like this are neurodivergent/mentally ill/personality disordered and have developed a sexually compulsive behavior centered around their challenged relationship with the opposite sex, that has metastasized onto their sense of self and negatively impacted their life. I can see with my eyes that these men’s behaviors are harmful to themselves and to all women. I don’t view it as a sexual orientation, but as a sexual paraphilia, which can be treated at any time if the sufferer lets go of their protective narcissism, their desire to control and possess the objects of their sexual desire from a place of narcissistic control or fear, and chooses to get help. I have zero issue maintaining a completely firm boundary with men like this- I don’t feel bad for them when they perpetuate this behavior, I don’t particularly care how they feel if they don’t seek help, and I recognize that their behaviors are a CHOICE that harms firstly women and secondly themselves, that they could stop at any time if they sought help. Sexually disordered behavior is not exclusive to them, and all people (yes, EVEN men) have the ability for self control and personal responsibility for how they treat themselves and others.
@@ejd5261 It's refreshing to hear other voices of sanity in this twisted, perverted world. Thanks for sharing.
I really really understand this guy & appreciated the explanation of the “it’s ma’ams” freaking out because they felt their inner girlfriend was being insulted. It also explains why I see the so called trans women reacting to resistance with uber masculine responses. I wouldn’t call myself a terf but I’m definitely terf adjacent. My main issue is this : is mens euphoria more important than women & children’s comfort & safety? As a woman I have to say no it is not .
Good point and I agree.
TERF adjacent. Nice. I relate.
@@LasPhoenix777 😆
Perhaps you are suffering from an autoandrophilic obsession?
@@TheGuiltsOfUs I suffer from no such thing . My pussy is like a steel trap & I couldn’t be happier. I LOVE being a woman ♥️
A couple of years ago Contrapoints made a video about autogynephilia where they argued that the phenomena is no different from females who are turned on by perceiving themselves as sexually attractive. I think the misunderstanding comes from interpreting the female experience as being arousal through imagining/perceving their own sexual attractiveness, when the arousal is actually from imagining or percieving others being aroused BY them, not being aroused by their own bodies or sexuality. That would seem to be an important distinction.
Good provocative comment. Thank you.
So... is there anything other than the second?
Can you even be turned on by yourself?
Isn't that way too incestuous? lol!
@@lloydgush yes, I think the comment starts off with the premise that some women get "turned on" by makeup, jewellery, clothing choices in and of themselves. As a biological woman, I've obseved this plenty of times in other women. Make-up parties, jewellery shopping, clothing choices, rarely are men referenced, despite what many men think or is portrayed in movies etc. Most women (in my observation) like "fashion" in and of itself not for who it will attract. There are (of course) exceptions- the choice of clothes for an evening where they're targeting a male.
@@lloydgush I don't experience being turned on by being female, or by my body in itself at all. I experience being turned on by the perception of myself turning someone else on, or imagining doing that, and that is the phenomena I see in other women.
It would make sense given that we know that females are less easily aroused and less visually sexually stimulated than males. So having sexual desire triggered by perceiving yourself to be desired by a male would make for better sexual compatibility.
My understanding is that autogynophilia is a sexual fetish not a sexual orientation. He says there is nothing wrong with his orientation but it sounds like this disorder makes it very difficult to for them to be in actual real relationships with real people as their inner crush on themselves gets in the way...its a tragic disorder and is destroying lives
Its only a fetish if it is approached as purely sexual. This person experiences his AGP as a spiritual and emotional orientation and there are spiritual traditions that speak of orienting the inner opposites to create the ideal of the Divine Androgyne. If a heterosexual divorces his sexual impulses from his emotional and spiritual self, then their sexuality would also play out like a fetish.
@@paigeu23 i don't believe inner gender feelings are real. you are the sex you are and whatever you're feeling, you are feeling in a sexed body, it is impossible to "Feel" like the opposite sex since you will never actually experience it. this is like a religious cult
@@paigeu23 interesting. So if it is more of a spiritual experience for them and we have separation of church and state in our country then this perspective would be a strong push for getting this agenda separated from our institutions. I am looking forward to future law suits filed by de transitioners and hoping they will understand this spiritual side to it all so this trans ideology cant be understood for what it is...a type of religion.
Yes. I think because he is still essentially oriented to be sexually attracted to other people who are female, but also the idea of himself as a female. I think it's better to just acknowledge it's a paraphelia. And that the reason for being "attracted" to women isn't really love or sex, but a kind of copycat mechanism. Another commenter noted how common autism and gender non-conforming identity is now, and I will recall to you that people with ASD often make friends they can copy masking behavior from successfully. It's possible some amount of AGP is a manifestation of ASD in some way 🤷♀️ we just don't understand.
Disorder, yes. Sexual orientation, no.
Growing up on tumblr, and seeing the fujoshi-to-ftm pipeline unfold starkly with my own eyes, I feel like people really need to shine a light on the female version of this
It lends to suggesting quite strongly that certain sexual paraphilias ARE in fact formed by, or at the very least, heavily influenced by exposure to specific types of erotic or pornographic media.
@@Gingerblaze yes, that's a fact. This origin of paraphilias has been researched and established. The mainstream media and universities won't touch that info with a ten foot pole though. You have to dig for this info if you want it.
I have witnessed so many of my friends in this pipeline, all on Tumblr and deviantart. One is getting top surgery and calls herself a gay man. It's actually heartbreaking.
Anybody else note that he experienced a profound, feminine energy well up in him *during a Lady Gaga performance*, presumably surrounded by screaming, ecstatic fan girls, and with the deified pop-star on huge, light up screens? Oh, and he took an entheogen/hallucinogen, and spent a year thereafter “afraid” that thát experience of feminine energy meant he had a female soul and was therefore trans?
They weren’t kidding about that “set and settings” stuff!
Yes, oh my God. Fujoshi aren’t as scary as autogynephiles, but holy hell are they embarrassing. You ever see some dumpy fat chick and go “this is a woman who writes fanfictions about Pickles the Drummer being trans and banging Nathan Explosion”.
8:05 Could that spirit of intense “feminine energy” he experienced have had something to do with the female pop star, or the crowds full of female fans he was surrounded by and sharing in exaltation of the pop star?
Is that not the setting in which he says he ate fungus and then had this transformative experience?
I was wondering “what does female energy feel like, and how would he know?” and then I’m like, oh lady gaga concert, screaming fangirls, outfit, lights, stage dancing.
That female energy was just your social surroundings when you took your trip, dude. Imagine if you’d been camping instead!
This! A certain style of clothing or outward appearance/behaviour is not what makes us women! Only our biology does.
Or locked in a male prison instead of a highly glamorized, sexualized experience catering to teen girls (whom he still emulates)
Exactly this. The same way trans women say they feel like a woman, without actually knowing what it is to be a woman.
That Gamestop “Ma’am” is a terrifying brute. 17:02
That behavior is the reason women generally dislike and avoid autogynephiles.
After all, if someone called me “Sir,” I would not lose my shit like that.
I do appreciate that this person understands that they shouldn’t play basketball against natal women.
AGPs are more violent to women than normal men. They are more prone to sex crimes. They are more likely to hold bigoted and sexist political views. Normal men don’t scare me. I have male doctors who touch me. But I would never let an AGP near me.
I guess I understand that if someone called me “Sir,” I would just assume they had misspoken. And of course, I don’t have an identity that doesn’t match my reality.
Definitely AGP and misguided. No feminine mannerism whatsoever and aggressive male vocals. I’m from the same town where this person lives and incident happened. Embarrassing and not surprising but I know it’s everywhere.
@@Late70sRocker I heard that Macho Ma’am Randy Savage is a felon who makes bad electronic music. So, like, every other MTF.
He-Ma'am displays typical male aggression, in this case to his fetishistic delusion being questioned by being called Sir. Other men have the same reaction to their girlfriend being called a name or to their masculinity being questioned, or to a woman saying no to him or mocking him. It's male aggression that's the reason most girls and women don't want males in our female-only spaces.
AGP sufferer here.
Developed during my youth years.
I found out it had its roots in attachment trauma with my mom and dad.
Agp was a survival mechanism I developed.
I became a Christian and with the love that God gave me I was able to let the whole phantasm vanish. I got a deep inner peace.
Whenever I revive the phantasm of having a vagina, it creates a deep arousal but I literally feel that I open a spiritual door in my spirit. It always ends with losing my spiritual peace and having a spiritual battle with lust and pride, also feel a inner blockade.
For me I need to learn to let it go, to let the phantasm eliminate and to act from my male self, including intimicy with women.
In the meanwhile I continu to work on my root traumas.
That sounds like a good plan. I'm not religious myself, but I think your faith acts in the same way my mental process worked to overcome various issues I had. It is, as you say, a battle, but the battle is to let it go, so I think of it as a yielding marshial art if any, like aikido. Agitation and frustration don't help, which is how most of us think of fighting. Instead, a calm affirmation does wonders, developing belief in oneself. It can be really useful to develop one's life in new ways, find new hobbies, friends, interests, and the old patterns are starved of energy.
@@lettersquash Yes I agree with you.
Putting the focus on other things in stead of feeding the fantasy.
But in the same time, suppressing it will not work.
Better find the emotions that are suppressed and let eventually to the the development of the AGP.
I know that shame is an important emotion to look at because shame is difficult to recognize.
@@Michel777 Absolutely right - I agree we need to learn to recognise our emotions and work towards understanding what they mean, not suppress them. My suggestion about finding other outlets was just because it can become too much if we're absorbed in our issues too much.
@@Michel777If the delusion of god is the only help then we are truly lost. I prefer suicide over delusion.
Christians blame every paraphilia on attachments to parents.
It strikes me as dangerous for the human well being and existence that behaviour s and thoughts once considered paraphilias are being rebranded as "sexual orientations"
Exactly. To call paraphilia's a sexual orientation is Newspeak. And it is dangerous to women and children to do so.
Yes and no, AGP is in a weird spot, it is both a paraphilia and a sexual orientation at the same time
For me that depends on the underlying mechanisms. If being AGP is somehow wired into the brain in the same way as being straight or gay, then it's a sexual orientation, right? Just like p3d0filya. That doesn't take away from the fact that the law still applies and that they latter group can't legally (and ethically) action their sexuality.
It's a matter of semantics, maybe but language shapes our world views. When you call it sexual orientation, you neutralize the term, digressing from potential negative consequences. I understand it sounds better, for those who have it, especially if they feel there is nothing they can do about it. I don't know technically speaking. Science tells us our brains are very much plastic. What is innate, cultural, behaviourally learned, believed, medical and free choice... It's all a mush. Apart from the glimpses of gender euforia or the "AGP Kick", he doesn't sound particularly thrilled about his tendencies. For example, he cannot hold a meaningful relationship with a real woman. And this is only one of many more consequences. If society moves to relativism, I suspect there is more harm than good, overall, down the line...
Exactly...the P paraphilia is NOT an orientation, it is a FETISH.
Fascinating video. As a woman myself, hearing him describe his feelings and his connections with femininity, it all sounds to me like a man describing what he incorrectly perceives femininity to be from a male perspective. This has always been my experience hearing other trans women and AGP's describe the experience. It seems like a misguided attempt to know femininity from what will always be a male perspective. I feel for him, but this is why we need to retain female-only spaces because there is no ultimate crossing over. It reminds me of Narcissus falling in love with his own reflection, but imagining that it is a woman he is perceiving in the water.
You’re ideologically possessed
Totally 💯
Many women comment like you but none of them make sense to me. Why are you saying autogynophelia is narcissistic while a a woman who 'feels sexy dressing up in the mirror' is completely acceptable? Why are you assuming the feelings and connections of people with autogynophelia with feminity are not valid or 'truly feminine' if such people tend to like the same activities, entertainment and mannerisms and socializing that women have?
Incredibly insightful comment. Dr. “Anne” Lawrence, a self-acknowledged autogynephile, said that the reason so many AGPs refuse to acknowledge their disorder is because _they know_ that their obsession with being a woman is the greatest proof that they _aren’t_ women. Both in the sense that you can’t want to be something you are, and because they know that sort of paraphiliac obsession is a masculine trait _by default._
@@Sam-rk5oc 1. If what women are saying doesn’t make sense, then you should listen to them instead of listening to an autogynephile’s excuses. Listen to trans-widows like Ute Haggen if you want insight into autogynephilic abuse.
2. A man fantasizing about possessing a body that isn’t his is not the same as someone fantasizing about a body they _do_ inhabit. There is a difference between an Asian person admiring themselves in the mirror and a white person pulling their eyelids back while laughing at their own reflection.
B. When AGPs masturbate, they engage in several paraphiliac behaviours that women (or normal men, for that matter) do not. The AGP will often steal the panties of women and girls they know. They pair their “feminine” clothing with autoerotic asphyxiation, self-harm, and bondage, which is unusual for men and basically unheard of in women. The AGP reaches orgasm, whereas a woman checking herself out in the mirror does not. Comparing some chick looking at herself in the mirror to some 40 year old man in his daughter’s underwear jerking off while he strangles himself is completely idiotic and shows a real lack of understanding for the paraphiliac mind.
3. Except these men do not have the same preferred “activities, entertainment, mannerisms and socializing” as women. They are actually less like women than normal men without autogynephilia. AGPs tend to be ultra-masculine, and are overrepresented in industries such as the military, computer science, and engineering. Many of them are athletic. They are significantly more violent than their fellow men, who are, in turn, much more violent than women. Hell, AGPs don’t even _vote_ like women do. Regular men are more similar to women than the men who claim to be women. I don’t know where you got this absurd idea, but basically every piece of research on AGP demonstrates how ultra-masculine they are.
4. Autogynephilia is a fetish, not an orientation, because orientations by definition have to be directed outside the self onto another person.
B. There is no evidence AGP is innate. There is evidence that, like pedophilia, it is a product of excessive pornography use. See the works of Jon Uhler.
C. Autogynephilia doesn’t exist in nature, but homosexuality and heterosexuality do.
5. Autogynephilia is correlated with personality disorders, particularly Cluster B pathology which _includes narcissism._
B. Autogynephilia is correlated with serial murder, serial sex offending, domestic abuse, etc. Criminals are narcissistic. Autogynephiles are more likely to be criminals. Therefore, autogynephiles are more likely to be narcissistic.
C. Autogynephiles have ruined women’s sports, prisons, domestic violent shelters, and bathrooms. That is narcissistic behaviour. No group of people has ever caused as much damage to women as autogynephiles.
They’re narcissists. All the data shows it. The best you have to counter this evidence is going “but women like looking in the mirror”. Yeah, women look in the mirror. Men with autogynephilia choose the person in the mirror over their families. That seals the deal, doesn’t it?
What do we do about it? First and foremost we stop lying that anyone can ever be something they are not.
Best comment so far!
Absolutely critical we do that.
We get them as children to not engage in mushrooms or any other illicit drugs, then we keep them close to home where they won't join or want to join groups of messed up people whose sole purpose in life is to experiment by "playing" at being whatever they're not. That's a start.
Homeschool kids and keep them away from their cell phone and their computer, as tech CEOs do with their kids.
Absolutely. We do exactly that.@@sarahm9723
appreciate this guy's honesty, but can't stand the idea that some kids really would benefit from being sterilized and made dependent on lifelong medicalization but the problem is just selecting the right ones
also think "morphological freedom" is nonsense- adults don't medically transition themselves anymore than kids do; nothing about being over 18 means that the pharmaceutical industry should be free to prey on you
@Somnus523 I accept that there are men who wish they had a vagina but am very very skeptical that anyone seriously wants a neovagina, ie, a nonhealing wound that smells like feces; this is all lies and vaporware - no ethical physician could possibly square any of it with the Hippocratic oath
@Somnus523 No the industry wasn't created because there was a desire. The industry promoted the desire as the new Beatles and people with autism and mental problems fall for it. ua-cam.com/video/lS7t40d_A84/v-deo.html
@Somnus523 science says it's good to remove people's genitals and replace them with nonheaing wounds that smell like feces? hadn't considered that, better start creating more of them then
@Somnus523 Scientific evidence of who's promoting the trans thing? Like a trans doctor saying they have found the gene for government promotion? Just open your eyes and look around you to see what has happened over the last decade, and it is obvious that it comes from top down. Grassroots don't have national banks and police forces promoting and backing their cause. Grassroots don't have MSM promoting their cause and silencing opponents. Grassroots don't have police forces interrogating opponents and big cooperations fyring opponents for wrong think. Grassroots don't have the governments changing laws in their favour before the public even knows about the cause. Grassroots don't have the governments and medical system and medicine industry backing them. Grassroots don't have the state forcing people to believe in their cause.
My ex husband was more in love with the fantasy woman he wished he could be than he could ever possibly love a real woman.
These men are all abusers. I am super sorry about your situation. I hope you got the house, custody, and the kids. Your ex sounds repulsive.
@@wormwoodcocktail The original comment did not mention abuse at all. Your comment seems extreme given the context and unhelpful in understanding different situations.
@@markn866 A man coming out “as a woman” to his wife is abusive by default.
Sounds like he was addicted to lust and “lust kills love.”
@@Late70sRocker Exactly. It’s an “erotic location error”, or the misdirection of lust. Basically, male paraphiliacs have this tendency to want to *become* the object of their lust.
Why does this happen? It’s not clear. This video is correct in saying that ETLEs are more common amongst those with higher mutational load. My *personal* theory is that it has to do with the visual nature of male sexual arousal.
Men typically become fixated on specific images. That’s why “adult” content targeted at men tend to focus on pictures and videos. Furthermore, the pictures and videos will have consistent subjects, such as compilations of specific acts or body parts.
If it’s not visual stimuli, it’s sound. That’s where you get a lot of ASMR. Either way, it is a sensory experience for men. For women, on the other hand, there is a preference for the *abstract.* They prefer to read and write erotica. If they look at images, it is not in the form of dissected sequences of multiple women’s breasts. Instead, it is usually a serialized comic book.
That’s one theory as to why men will become aroused when looking at MTFs or fantastical representations thereof (ex. “F!ta”). They see the visual stimuli they like with women (breasts, bum), and the visual stimuli of an erect member. The latter, being a visual stimuli associated with masturbation and orgasm as the man looks down, becomes linked and thus eroticized. They aren’t looking at the figure as a whole, but as a visual piece of monkey bread one can flip through. Penis. Butt. Boob. Repeat.
So my theory has always been that these visual symbols become so engrained in the male psyche that, if he’s a pervert, he will obsess over them. Every time he sees something tangentially related to this library of visual images he associates with arousal he becomes aroused and happy. What better way to generate an endless supply of erotica than to *turn yourself into the thing you lust for?*
That’s why men who like putting their 🍆 inside plush toys of My Little Pony characters fantasize about becoming plush toys. It’s why furries tend to get caught abusing their dogs. And it’s why autogynephiles *just love* calling themselves “girls” instead of women.
Their lust supersedes love. Most normal men just look at compilations of whatever they’re into. The man who is a pervert, it’s all he thinks about. He wants it constantly, all the time. His addiction subsumes him and leads him further into perversion as he needs more stimuli to get off.
In Dr. Lawrence’s book “Men Trapped in Men’s Bodies”, the author says that autogybephiles consider their feelings the strongest they know. That they worship these feelings. They chose this. They continued to voluntarily sink deeper into perversion and further fuse those neural connections together. Now, like a drug addict, life without cooming becomes miserable.
Lust does more than supercede love, it destroys one’s capacity for it. We know that men who are AGP are more sexist, more violent, and more *distinct* from women than *normal men.* Lawrence himself admits this. These men threaten, hurt, and abuse women (and men) who interfere with their lust.
Imagine being a *doctor, a grown man,* and the strongest feeling you ever had was *jerking it.* Not the birth of your child (and most of these dudes have kids), not getting married, a dream, an aesthetic experience, but *busting in a sock while wearing your mom’s underwear.* It’s stomach churning. It’s the opposite of love. It’s something bleak.
Phil was brutally honest and was fantastic. At times, maybe a bit scattered, but that is because he wants to say what he thinks and maybe not alienate some who should hear what he has to say. I think we just may hear more about him when this book gets published. We will see if the activists get activated over it.
I agree
I love hearing all perspectives
I need the balance of it all . And brutal honestly is what helps
@@mynx6969 ... My 🦘GRL ❤
He is very smart
As a "TERF" I enjoyed listening to this and really respected his views, but was disappointed with his views on children transitioning and wanted to know his views on female spaces?
TERF here. I absolutely enjoyed this conversation too! I would be interested in responses to those questions as well.
I had a co-worker whose daughter was going thru precocious puberty and the doctor told him it was from going to McDonalds and other fast food places. He stopped with the junk food and went on all organic and she went back to normal.
Did her armpit hair fall out? Did her period stop? Or was the so called precocious puberty a simple case of excess body fat, leading to the appearance of breasts and big thighs?
@@katieandnick4113 She was 5 years old, normal weight, and was developing breasts, her hormones were off, and other signs of puberty.
@@lilylittlemonster5LOL, I like how that accuser didn’t respond with an apology despite being quick to doubt you. Congratulations on getting your child on a more healthy path and thank you for sharing your experiences here.
@@tablescissors Thanks for your support on that. Trolls can be annoying- LOL. By the way it was my co-worker who was having the problem with is daughter.
This guy is so naïve as to how screwed up and even vicious people are in this movement. If the movement was as accepting and easy going as this guy is there wouldn't be such a massive pushback.
Indeed. 'Is' and 'Ought'
Society is circling the drain for sure.
We never used to have issue with tranvestites back in the day - as they weren't insisting we let them in our spaces - although the older lesbian community say they used to try to get in with them but were kicked out.
He's a special case. I notice a LOT about his first principles. One major difference between him and the Woke is his unflinching orientation towards truth.
He basically has the same epistemology and metaphysics that most people operate from. That is, he believes there is objective truth, and he believes that the world exists independent of his mind.
The Woke do not do truth like normal people. Truth to them is operational success: it doesn't matter if being trans is real or whether it's authentic, what matters it's if they can create a fake reality and have people participate in the illusion ... because then that reality is good enough in its effects.
The Woke also differ in epistemology, that is the theory of how we know things to be true.
They believe that the mind is primary and that what you imagine is real. And they believe that if they've had a personal experience and interpreted it that is "a truth" ... this is described in standpoint epistemology, or they call it lived experience.
I think he explained that, at least from his point of view.
"I don't get offended" and thus this fine gentleman displays his masculine nature. I thank you, Mr Boyce, yet again for contributing mightily to clarifying these deeply conflated, fraught, and distorted issues
I find Phil's ideas about MTFs interesting, because _my_ experience with heterosexual women who identify as transgender is that they're driven _very_ differently from men, usually by a desire to prolong childhood or keep themselves physically safe (or otherwise connected in some way to some implication of physical puberty, and gaining the attributes and capabilities of a woman).
There really is a spectrum of “trans” identities and underlying reasons. All of them are messed up and none of them justify these behaviours.
I remember when we had "Transvestites", and "Transexuals". That made sense.
Now, there is a whole mess of this ridiculous stuff. Trans can mean just about anything these days.
@shadow inc As another comment said, the fujoshi-to-trans pipeline is real.
@shadow inc interesting theory. I understand the biggest interest in male gay fiction is teenage girls.
In a similar vein, I see lots of teenage and early twenties girls/women dressed in toddler clothes. bright coloured children's styles with cartoon motifs, fluffy backpacks etc. I often think they're maybe not wanting to appear as a woman. I was a tomboy so also was uncomfortable in trad women's clothes but the toddler thing is a bit worrying to me!
Agreed, married 48 years to a man with "high functioning" autism. We both have science degrees. I swam in autism waters for 30 years at work. We need them. They are frustrating, annoying and "facts over feelings" every time. But, we neurotypicals need them. It's a spectrum. Sure, the dysfunctional ones are disabled in our society, but we need them, too, because they keep the range of genes in the pool that gets us the extremely frustrating emotionally (at times) that provide us with technology, maths, high art, science, the best music (repetition of practice), engineers, mechanics etc. In my experience & opinion they make up 10% of our population, many unrecognised and undiagnosed to this day (my hb was age 58 at dx) but we sure do need them.
I love one of these types, myself. A mechanical engineer. ❤
Well, there are plenty of more "normal" geniuses.
Seems it's a challenge to at least try to deal better with whatever makes us "dysfunctional".
This needs to be emphasized more.
Well. They give a great deal of a shit about THEIR OWN feelings, don’t get confused there; it’s not as “rational” as it appears perhaps to others. However, caring about one’s own feelings to the exclusion of others and having a predisposition to struggling with the empathy to understand others can easily lead to very toxic places.
There is an expression in French. When the lie takes the elevator, the truth takes the stairs. It may take a while but the truth catches up in the end.
God I would love to see him talk with Exulansic. They’re both so intelligent, scientifically minded, and articulate. That would be an incredible conversation.
This was a great interview.
That would be amazing!
Exulansic would destroy him
@@CourtneyFagras Cool! Would be fun to watch!
This is a very interesting and worthwhile conversation. The self-awareness and stringent honesty Phil demonstrates is commendable and the quality of Benjamin's listening and responses make this a deeply valuable contribution to the trans conversation.
Coincidentally, I recently watched a UA-camr called Healthy Gamer, investigate a study that shows why autism and gender identity are connected. He discusses statistics that were produced in a study published in December 2022 which are startling in that recently a larger preponderance of trans identifying early plus children/teens are autistic females rather than the previous cohort which used to be teen boys, in small numbers. It would appear that a greater proportion of Autistic people are likely to also have non gender conforming sexual orientation. Then the numbers of non gender conforming people turn out, in significant numbers to be either undiagnosed or diagnosed with Autism. And part of what appears to be a contagion - social media driven - amongst the female cohort of early teen trans children has to do with a difficulty of “Mentalisation” of these children’s inner world landscape not just what was understood heretofore as the major impediment for people with autism, the lack of innate “Mentalisation” skills when it comes to other human beings. This brings statistics to the thesis proposed by your guest and underpins his argument with facts. I see the likely veracity of these observations by your guest and by the numbers as a parent of a 40 something high functioning autistic man from the perspective of understanding the constant day to day challenge of mentalising other people, for him. And indeed I can imagine the complicating factor of gender confusion where clarity of boundaries is not present. At the same time, AGP, can it be called, “orientation” , it seems to me from this discussion, emerges in fully developed, sexually mature, adult human males. And I will stand corrected if I am wrong. I am very glad to spend the time listening to this honest man bring the subtleties of his AGP maturation and life experience to those who want to understand, correctly, what is at play here and why the truth has been buried. There may be hope here for a way of untangling the reality of the AGP male “trans” human experience from ideology plus the deep misunderstanding by many women supporters, as this man describes, of promoting fast tracking children into medicalising a process that should rather be one of psychological support through puberty into fully formed adulthood where they then make decisions about their future lives. With fully formed brains, and no endocrinological harm done, to become hopefully, better informed to consent to body altering processes which children cannot do. In fact any “detransitioners “ would say that they could not and still cannot give informed consent because these “medical interventions” are experimental with few to no statistics or studies done on “successful” outcomes or harms that cannot be reversed and cause, for many, major life long medical problems. And then there is the body dysmorphia cohort, with its own serious issues also.
Healthy gamer is definitely not an expert in autism although he can be good at other matters.
@@Souxie123 He was reading from a study that was published last December. He was not prognosticating off his own bat. And as a parent of a high functioning autistic man, not to mention other professional, accomplished family members with autism, I have enough discernment and personal experience to tell the difference.
Benjamin has a beautiful interview, on his channel, with a college-age young man and his father. The young man has high-functioning autism - and they speak wonderfully about the type of things you’re discussing here.
I think you’d really enjoy it. It’s one of my all-time favorite pieces of tape
@@nonpareilstoryteller5920 ok thank you
We’re more likely to latch onto something that promises to fix us is all that connection is
So much respect for Illy...what a raw, honest, extremely well academically-underpinned talk! I am so glad Phil had the strength to suffer the sad downside of truth-telling. Keep up the great work.
For the past year... I've been saying Munchausens by proxy is a huge factor
Phil's expectations about his book bring him lots of money once its published are completly unrealistic. Most nonfiction books sell very few copies. Most authors earn very little in the way of royalties. All authors need another way to make a living.
Yeah I know that books typically don't sell much. This particular situation is kinda unique, so I don't think it'll be typical.
I giggled when he said he wanted someone/or people to subsidise his living to write his book, the audacity for an unknown author. Then to think he will make living from the umm royalties. He does not have the audience volume for such a book. Narcissism at its best, or delusional. He sounds like a grifter.
The "social pressure to and unwillingness to lie" resonates hard
Thank you for this conversation. It is really important. It’s so good to hear from a reasonable AGP. So many of them seem completely unreasonable and so driven by their desires. Phil makes it seem possible for society to have the conversations that are needed to sort this mess out. It gives me hope that I can agree with a lot of what he has said.
The idea that there are any kids that can be put on a transition pathway as a valid life choice is insane. Ur born into the body ur born into and that is it end of story, anything else is fantasy made up in the mind
And a disgusting fantasy fueled by hatred of women
Tell that to the kardashians 😂
@@Sanecheck1 You joke, but *yeah.* Cosmetic surgery is a grotesque waste of medical resources and people should be shamed publicly for getting it.
@@MaliciousMalcontent Good luck with your transition!
@@wormwoodcocktail ... I would not use "cosmetic" surgery for what is happening to our youth, but I know what you mean, just not the word I would use is all.
I think Phil errs in contending that AGPs are the only males who've tried to imagine, and are capable of imagining, what it's like to be female and that as a result, AGPs are the men and boys most likely to have empathy for us. I believe he makes this error because as an AGP, he's a narcissist who sees females only through the lens of his own post-pubescent male sexuality - as possible sex partners and romantic love interests. Whereas most males grow up seeing females in a far broader (LOL) context - as their mothers, sisters, grans, aunts, carers, teachers, friends. Lots of little boys try to imagine what life is like for their mums, sisters and female friends - and they develop empathy (& other feelings towards us) that way. Lots of dads do the same with their daughters. Whereas Phil's worldview seems to miss all that... because of his AGP.
Yes, this appears to be an observably common trait amongst many with hetero trans identified men and even amongst "cis"men who consider themselves "heterosexual" while having an exclusive preferrance/ fetish for trans identifying men which supercedes any sexual attraction they may have for biological women.
Did I say "only"? Or did you?
For the record he didn’t imply that at all. You are just projecting your hate and twisting the truth.
I don't think these men who claim they are lesbian (they are not, males can't be lesbian) realize how angry and disgusted lesbians are by these men's intrusion into their sex-class and sexual orientation. These men can be quite aggressive and lesbians have for decades had to deal w/ these disordered males invading their spaces and insisting that lesbians date them and sleep w/ them, it's disgusting.
I'm interested in autoandrophilia. I wish this topic was explored more, because I think I may have a mild form of that. But this is interesting too. It's nice to see someone who can be honest about autogynophilia as part of their personality. It's ok to emulate and prefer a certain gender, but not to deny that you are physically the opposite in this lifetime. And self love and care is important no matter what.
I think, for heterosexual women, there is an interest in male homosexuality. I think their autoandrophilia is more autohomoandrophilia than anything else. People call it the fujoshi to FTM pipeline.
You sometimes see this in AGPs who want to be “lesbians”, however most of them settle for sexless T4T relationships.
I think it’s because they’re more interested in being a woman than being a lesbian, specifically. Lesbianism to them is a very specific cherry on top. A fetish within a fetish. Subsequently, anything about the female experience is “up for grabs” in the mind of the AGP. AGPs will steal used tampons, smear jam on their underwear, fantasize about pap smears, etc. Their focus is on the woman.
By contrast, fujoshi / heterosexual FTMs do not seem interested in men as a general thing. I’ve never seen one of these chicks get off to the prospect of a prostate exam, for instance. They don’t fantasize about having testicular torsion. They don’t want to sniff the skid marks of actual men.
Instead, their focus seems entirely centered on male homosexuality. Like the AGPs, these “AAP” FTMs often enter sexless relationships with similarly disordered people. Two heterosexual women who think schlicking to the same yaoi series makes them homosexual men even though both of them are too fat to f!ck. Unlike the AGPs, who are gross and terrifying, these chicks are the former only.
@@wormwoodcocktail yeah I know about most of this because I grew up around it. Most of my female friends who liked M4M media have transitioned at this point. I get that stereotype entirely, but it ain't me.
I also know some MTFs and cringeworthy non-binary males (some females) There's some other elements to autoandrophilia that are often overlooked, I believe. Like the guest on the show, there are rational and level headed people that enjoy celebrating the opposite sex in many different ways (even non-sexually ones), but it never becomes a debilitating delusion. Gender play can be understood and acted out with taste and discretion. But when it's a daily necessity, any egotistical fantasy can become an issue. Similar to gambling, drug and sex addictions or eating too many sweets. Relying on plastic surgery and non essential HRT is not a cure for depression, it's enabling the addiction.
But at the end of the day I don't think all cross gender fixations are strictly degenerate or harmful by default. It's a form of therapy or play one can engage in to self soothe, be it acted out IRL occasionally or written/drawn in a notebook. Imagination can be a path most of these people can take to avoid unnecessary medicalization of their inherent psychological dispositions. They shouldn't be told the feelings reflect hard reality, but reminded it's a fantasy that should be taken lightheartedly if ever it's indulged.
The Blanchardists and TERFs believe AAP doesn't exist, only AGP. They also believe that AMABs and AFABs were fundamentally different, like different species, and each and every individual can be put in one of two sex boxes. I say AMAB and AFAB because they have no better and non-arbitrary distinction line between what they think is "male" and "female".
I'm interested in that as well. I've known several girls who are obsessed with gay porn and imagine themselves as males in homosexual relationships. Specifically imagine themselves as *boys* in homosexual relationships 🤦♀️. I'm not sure why, but I think it's pretty bizarre. I know Feminists would claim imagining yourself as a man would mean you wish to be a member (🤣😉😉👌) of the Patriarchy and use domination as a tool to reclaim power you didn't have as a woman, but why would a woman imagine herself as a homosexual BOY??? That clearly isn't a dominant thing, but blatantly submissive. I think it's a Peter Pan syndrome, but maybe it's more complicated?
@@erinlikesacornishpasty4703 Fujoshis. You’re thinking of fujoshis.
It is so irritating to be called a "TERF" since I dont call myself a feminist, let alone a radical one. I just dont think males should be allowed in women's only areas OR sports! Seems like a pretty normal opinion to me.. "Cis" "Terf" This stupid lingo. I think people have too much time on their hands these days.
Not trying to be rude but he's a dead ringer for Lee Harvey Oswald!
More like Buffalo Bill
@@sean5388 talk about standard fare agp insult. At least they're being honest about the nature of the condition.
Yes, has his facial features!
I see it.
I think this might be the most fascinating video yet. It all makes so much SENSE! THNK YOU!
Conservatives, especially Christian conservatives, generally take seriously the idea that eugenics are a bad thing -- we don't want people to "sterilize themselves." It's an appalling thought.
I wholeheartedly agree and I am secular (ex-Roman Catholic until 10yrs young) from 🇬🇧. I have searched to find a religion that is not solely controlled by men, and left R.C when my mother told me she was informed by an alcoholic celibate priest with no idea of sex between couples whatsoever that if ‘SHE’ was ‘barren’ then my parents were to sleep (sexually NOT engage) in separate beds/bedrooms. This same priest broke my 10yr heart by stating my adored Labrador dog had no soul so would not go to ‘heaven’ . Excuse my anger, it is not aimed @ good folk like you Rebecca. This is my experience and I have searched for a belief that encompasses females equally for 6 decades to no avail 🥺.
With much love and respect for your beliefs, 🥰 from 👵🏻☮🇬🇧
The Bible teaches healing through Jesus Christ that all humans need. This is just another version of our fallen nature.
Who cares?
It is
@@nickypiccallo that's a very shallow analysis
He describes his experience in such an eloquent, nuanced way. Thank you, both. Interviews like this are what we need to expand the discussion in a compassionate way.
Lovely comment. Encapsulates my thoughts. I have been struggling to simply understand and make sense of Trans and culture and all thse complex topics. I found this conversation very lucid, fair.....interesting and open. It helped me see a different side of the AGP. I just want to understand, learn and know.
He almost explained nothing about himself !
Honestly Benjamin, the more I think about ur videos I’ve watched with reflections from AGP’s the more I think it’s validating abnormal sexuality. Hear me out, if we were to sit and listen to people analyze for hours and hours things like every intricacy of why they like everything they like in the bedroom from having their back rubbed to their ballsack licked and how it all has great meaning. I think we r all devolving into narcissism myself included by spending time nazel gazing and analyzing this as if it’s anything other than strange sexual proclivities
Counterpoint: is sexuality ever *not* strange?
@@BenjaminABoyce I think some sexuality is VERY normal and not strange at all. Boy meets Girl, form bond, commit, produce offspring, nurture and raise prodigy, look to prodigy to support them in old age. Nothing strange about that is there? The urge to reproduce your expression of life?
truly! why are we acting like this is some variation of normal human sexuality when it isn't? there also needs to be a look into how porn is fueling a lot of the AGP fetish. AGP is a fetish, not a sexuality.
@@fairnsquare888 yeah, this conflation of orientation with abberant paraphilias is very lol. a little too simplistic, to say the least.
I agree. Hearing this guy may only help other AGP to admit their paraphilia. This itw was quite disturbing bc of the lack of distance needed in that matter. The guy’s nice but the « sexual orientation » stuff is not serious. Better off inviting Dr. Lawrence, even though « she » may be as biased as the man you invited here.
This interview was very enlightening and informative. I found Phil extremely knowledgeable, levelheaded, and non-judgmental. I look forward to a more balanced approach to this whole societal issue.
Wow. I am blown away. This person is so good at describing their situation. I have great empathy for them. Much respect.
I'm feeling kinda creepy because this is like the third interview I've heard of Phil's in the last 24 hours (I'm not sure what his pronouns are I'm not trying to be disrespectful ) I just think he's a really decent person that we can learn a lot from.
“This misunderstood sexual minority”… well said. This discussion was so grounded in reality it inspired true compassion within me that being forced to lie and believe people can be born in the wrong body certainly does not. Thank you for speaking truth Phil! Integrity trumps everything!
This has been extremely interesting. I had never heard it explained in this way and it’s a lot of food for thought. I have heard so many fascinating insights on your channel over the years and feel like I have had glimpses into various male/masculine perspectives which as a female I can never fully understand. I feel sexuality/sexual orientation is complex and seems very different males compared to females. Thank you for this interview.
I'm a straight male and as a teenager I remember badly wanting curly hair like my crush, which has seemed kind of weird in retrospect. Very interesting conversation! There are trans people I know and this is very illuminating.
That ideation you are mentioning is described in psychology as twinship described by Heinz Kohut’s as a mirroring and idealizing transference onto a love object which becomes self object. Completely normal development.
@@matthewkopp2391Oh no, not “normal” eeek, anything but that!
If there is no such thing as "trans" then individuals are just men and women with differences in presentation and mental perspective. Why isn't that ok? And I would argue that people being "conservative" doesn't mean they are actively working against anyone not heteronormative. I just get cranky when people are lumped into groups and assigned the same characteristics and views on all topics, which is simply not correct.
I appreciate this guests dedication to getting this information out regarding first hand information about the AGP and AAP type of trans identified ppl. Especially as they make up the highest percentage of Trans identifiying people.
In terms of the whole eugenics line of thinking, an interesting thing to note is that if trans identities have no genetic aspect, then the sterilization of an entire trans generation would not affect the lineage of the identity. Therefore, what we are seeing now actually makes sense if seen from a pseudoe evolutionary lineage like lens. That is, the only way the meme continues is through non-biological reproduction. This could explain the focus on youth and schools that is so prevalent within the trans ideology today.
The same could be said of lgbtq+ as a whole? WTF is your point here?
Sounds like the deepest form of narcissism Almost like a mirror “reflection” of the original myth.
I would really like to know if there is any comorbidity or correlation between Autogynophilia and Narcissism.
Look at phil illy conversation with realsmeth, also an AGP. Now that guy is a narcissist.
This was a great conversation. Phil is very reflective and thoughtful. I couldn’t help but notice that he did not talk at all about his early childhood family dynamics.
I think with ALL sexuality - hetero, homo, auto - our society is afraid to talk about how early attachment and family dynamics affect the expression of whatever predispositions (genetic or fetal hormonal exposure) might also play a part in the natural development of sexuality.
We can acknowledge that people don’t choose their sexuality- that it’s not a moral choice, acknowledge that genetics and fetal hormonal exposure influence our sexual development, AND explore how violence, neglect and emotional ISOLATION in infancy and early childhood also effect how and who we form attraction to.
I understand why emotional experiences are hard to measure, but everyone of every orientation needs practice with functional family attachment in order to functionally partner.
I would ask Phil how many autogynephiles he knows that came from loving, stable, functional homes… I mean really solid homes. The perfect family does not exist, but functioning, loving families do and we need to have honest conversations about how not being raised in such a family affects one’s ability to attach romantically and sexually in a functional way.
We need to be able to talk about the cause and effect outside of genetics and hormones.
You're speaking my language here (cptsd survivor). I've had to do A LOT of work on my attachment style (FA) and trauma healing (inc. specialised therapy) to get to where I am now and know myself and form a sense of identity (and comfort about it). It takes a lot of work. And bc that's where I've been the last couple of years, it's really overwhelmingly blatant to me that what's going on in the current climate with all this trans, gender and identity disruption, is most likely early trauma/neglect based. I think children should be given holistic identity affirming, not specifically gender affirming, care and theraputic resources made available in schools to mitigate whatever failings might be happening in their home life. That way, the next generation wouldn't grown up as fractured and dysphoric as the last few have.
im so glad that people are able to explain what they are experiencing, increasingly , because its understanding that helps progress in all human relationships ...
This is an amazing interview. I really respect the amount of hard core research Phil has done. He is so knowledgeable and I like his common sense, logical perspective. All the best to him as continues throughout life.
Really appreciated the discussion and the honesty. I am glad to have heard it.
From a woman's point of view listening to these two men discussing femininity is so crazy...they haven't the remotest clue.
I am not saying that men who want to be women aren't "going through" something but they are certainly not experiencing being a woman.
He describes an occasion when he became "'filled with a feminine energy". Fair enough, he can certainly take mushrooms and describe the subsequent experience any way he likes. The only problem is what he defines as a 'feminine energy' could be anything - as a man he has no idea what actual feminity is.
The interviewer also says he channels his "feminine energy" into literary pursuits... 😂 neither of these men has a clue.
This whole phenomenon is so difficult to understand. It seems to boil down to men idealizing what they imagine we are and then attempting to claim that as part of themselves. 🤯
I was rather hoping that the concerns about women prisoners and girls etc having single-sex facilities would have been addressed more.
It was interesting tangentally though.
Phil is obviously struggling with fitting in and is making an effort to understand his disorder.
I found the idea that his disorder was a "sexual orientation" very shoe-horned.
It has occurred to me that once we accept homosexuality we are then hard pushed not to accept an ever growing host of paraphilias and aberrant behaviours into the social realm.
I often reflect on how Dissociative Identity Disorder and Schizophrenia are currently pathologised yet we don't treat them by creating environments to accommodate the needs of their various psychological states.
In fact we consider this to be damaging and disorientating for them.
As predicted a long time ago on the IDW, this deconstruction of norms through adopting Critical Theory, Standpoint Epistemology and Intersectionality will inevitably end with the liberal notion we are all individuals and identities are so complex that identity politics is damaging and demeaning.
Splitting AGPs into two types is just part of the process.
I think they are perhaps experiencing a union with the numinous, a connection to the Divine Mother, who is all encompassing love. but then they personify it as woman, when it really is a divine energy that everyone has access to. curious.
> "From a woman's point of view listening to these two men discussing femininity is so crazy...they haven't the remotest clue."
If only feminists recognized that they are every bit as clueless about masculinity as men are about femininity, unfortunately they have seen fit to completely monopolize the subject despite the fact that they're utterly clueless about it.
Remember that masculine and feminine qualities and archetypes have always existed outside of the trans discussion. Channelling feminine or masculine energy in that context makes sense.
I’d make a man experience real femininity by first making him have a kidney stone, and eat a one pound bag of sugar-free gummy bears. Then I’d use a taser of his tits to make them hurt too and kick him in the abdomen over and over for a week while spraying him with a hose. That’s the closest a man is ever going to get to femininity and how much it hurts.
I appreciate the honesty of Phil Illy about what he described as "his kind" ,and how this condition is misrepresented by many men that have it as it is important that the truth of this be exposed/ explained ( depending on how you see it) in order that individuals with these feelings and those who know them and who treat them can better understand and deal with them. Phil confronts this topic with honesty and is courageous in doing so as he will inevitably get a lot of backlash for doing so. He articulates particulary well the pain underneath all of this and different forces pushing different ways.
However I worry about a possible intention of Phil's to "normalise" this as some sort of ok "alternate identity" We can have sympathy for people suffering from these conditions but not validate each and every one as "normal" under the auspices of people having the right to "freedom of expression ". Boundaries and societal rules are there for a reason ; they keep the fabric of society reasonably psychologically sane.
It's so refreshing to watch an interview on this subject where both sides remain calm and respectful. Phil was a fantastic guest and I think he did a great job of explaining his own feelings. I fear that he will be attacked by the aggressive online Trans activists. I hope not.
The need for self understanding is vital. Best of luck with the book.
I "am" a woman! I understand what a woman is, and the hardships women face being born and going through life as a real, biological women! This dude only imagines what being a woman is through his male perspective! Being female is a lot harder than putting on makeup, or female clothing!
It is insane that I am expected to give up my hard won rights, my sports, awards, opportunities, and jobs to be dominated by men again, just because they want to be their own sex toy! He doesn't love women! He loves himself!
I was upset when he started talkimg about soul and stuff like that. I really liked the conversation as a whole, but clearly there's a religious part in gender ideology that's very toxic. My bet is cognitive behavioural therapy could alleviate most of those feelings without resorting to making it your identity. Anyway, thank you for speaking with Ben, it was very interesting.
But being a male, he simply cannot known what being a woman means, how it feels. In fact, is there even such a thing as "feeling like a woman"? I feel multiple different feelings during the day as a woman, I might be frustrated, angry, confident, anxious, in a funny mood, whatever it might be- are these then "female feelings"? And another woman who has a different character and personality to me surely often feels very different compared to myself, even though she is a woman too!
He is projecting his personal assumption of what it is like to be a woman. And as he is male, he can only do this from a male perspective. He is projecting his male view of what it might be like to be a woman. With dress, for instance. Clothing is not something that makes us women. He just has a certain idea of what women typically wear (according to his view of women) and then believes he feels "female" when he wears this.
Terf is a misogynist term.
It’s definitely a way to shut women up, but I call myself a TERF because it’s funny. They try to use it as an insult and it’s like, “yes, I do exclude you lol, just like your parents”.
Not really anymore, since the terfs have adopted it like black rappers adopted the n-word before woke supremacists said they weren't allowed anymore. I have no problem being a trans excluding rational female. I don't think trans is good for anyone.
@@wormwoodcocktail it`s not °to shut women up°, it's to show that a tiny minority of cis women has a special transphobic and misandric ideology with many inner contradictions. Your crazy comments here show all these contradictions perfectly and probably keep many powerful potential allies who read them away from you, thank you for that.
I know longer care. Proud to be one.
It's vindictive and hateful. As is being called cis/het. A therapist group calling for a "cis/het" therapist made my skin crawl. The younger generation has embraced identity politics and these radical gender terms. We are the 99 percent. Not assigned at birth. No birthing persons. Makes me physically ill for what's in store for our children.
Phil, i think your book is the most important publication in the whole discussion of the last twenty years. This needs to be out there. It makes so much sense i can't tell you! Its like these people are in love! Thats why they are so fervent in their output. Is that right?
Finally someone is talking about facts about the hormone pathways, the feedback loop our bodies have and how pharma impacts mitochondrial dysfunction
Yeay
Throughout this conversation I’ve struggled with extreme discomfort. In questioning the root of that discomfort my conclusion is that ; as a female my instincts are on high alert as I’m witnessing a man play out his sexual kink. This is a private solo enterprise and like all overt sexual behaviours needs to be kept in the private domain. The fear women feel is rooted in this non consensual exposure . Sex should be private. If someone’s sexually aroused by wearing latex and being whipped, that’s fine. Should that be forced on the public? Of course not. In fact it’s a perfect example of male privilege to think it ok to force one’s sexual proclivities on others. Women, for obvious reasons, need to be worried in highly sexualised environments as we’re the ones who suffer the consequences. Weaker men often suffer also as they would fast become the victims of rape were women not available. We see this in prisons, the army etc. It’s been really informative to gain that perspective and help me understand why I feel this way.
It’s only though honest discussions that we can understand each other and hopefully find pathways through this. It’s the AGPs that scare women because we instinctively know it’s about sex. Comparing marriage, a union of two people with a shared goal to establish a life, raise a family etc to an introspective sexual proclivity was bizarre. Much heterosexual behaviour is about just sex but if we saw groups of naked people making out in public, we’d rightly be disturbed. There’s no many arms to this gender issue . The ultra feminine gay boys and masculine gay girls who are so ostracised from their sexual peers they believe life would be easier if they were the opposite sex.The autistic teenagers who simply can’t cope with puberty and the AGPs. Each needs different things so I welcome discussion such as this whole heartedly.
Let's not forget the children of both sexes are vulnerable to the consequences of oversexed males.
The only form of male sexuality that is remotely tolerated culturally are those expressions of male sexuality that fall under the [LGBTQ...] umbrella, straight male sexuality is still just as socially stigmatized as it's always been in the western world.
> "Much heterosexual behavior is about just sex but if we saw groups of naked people making out in public, we’d rightly be disturbed."
Unless, of course, those naked men are gay and it's at a pride parade. Somehow, millennial women (in particular) seem not to understand that gay male sexuality is every bit as male as straight male sexuality is; yet they perceive a threat in virtually any (even innocent) expression of the latter, while going out of their way to clap along to any display of the former. Maybe it's no wonder a repressed straight young man would develop an AGP fixation, "queer" seems to be the only form of male sexuality that isn't characterized as toxic, repulsive, and disgusting; to add even more incentive, non-straight male sexuality is even celebrated publicly.
You make a good point. Knowing that I am being forced to witness the fantasy of the AGP being played out by being in their proximity as they act out being a woman is disturbing to me. And maybe even being forced to call the AGP “ma’am” and treat him as a woman, which is essentially making me a participant in the sexual fantasy is even more disturbing. I have no issue with anyone’s sexuality or orientation, so long as it involves consenting adults in privacy.
That's why AGP men deny it's sexual, or just about sex, they claim it's somehow spiritual. They may even believe that, but maybe they'd say anything that will allow them to get away with playing out their fetish openly. I'm concerned that if I express discomfort by a man dressed up and trying to act as female I'm told I'm prejudiced and shouldn't trust my instincts. It's not the guy that should keep this behavior private, it's me that should be compassionate and open-minded.
@@user-jo2rk7iw5i What do you mean by "just about sex"? No one is asking, or expecting, you to be "compassionate", by all means treat people as you choose, the issue is that you seem offended by the very notion that there is anything even vaguely human about males with AGP that warrants an explanation deeper than the vapidity of prejudices like: "it's just about sex".
I just see someone who spends too much time thinking about himself and indulging himself
Thank goodness for those who seek truth. Thanks for staying with "is" and not jumping to "ought."
Why do you assume autogynephilia is hereditary and will therefore disappear if every AGP sterilizes himself (before having children)? There is no knowledge on what causes it. None.
It’s probably epigenetic, there’s arguably evidence of autogynephiles (crossdressers) existing for thousands of years and there doesn’t seem to be a clear genetic lineage.
Porn is often pointed out on this fetish
there is no such thing as transition. you can redraw the map but it doesn't change the land.
I really like Phil. He's self-aware and the whole package and he's wholesome and honest about it. I bought a copy of Autoheterosexuality, it's quite a tome but it's a fascinating read. I hope it succeeds in reshaping discourse.
Thanks Benjamin for interviewing Phil. Good to hear from a hoola hooping mechanical engineer, his insights and honesty.
Very cool podcast.
Answered a lot of questions I had.
I'll get the book if for no other reason then to support the author.
WOW. I think this is one of my favoritest calmversations. I missed the premiere and chat because I was listening to a presentation regarding the co-occurence of autism spectrum and dysphoria. It drove home the reason why I am not overly fond of the DSM-5. People are so fascinatingly unique and we want to group them into these little boxes with a label on them. The truth is that most of us don't fit tidily into any one box. Shouldn't the goal be as Benjamin says, "to accept yourself as yourself?" How do we express ourselves in ways that we can be ourselves without imposing ourselves on other people being themselves? Wouldn't it be nice if we could undulate in flight like those birds on I-5?
Accepting yourself as yourself does not involve pretending to be the opposite gender.
I'm glad you enjoyed the conversation. I have a chapter on the overlap between autism and transgenderism in my forthcoming book. Autism seems to contribute to gender variance in a few ways (greater rates of nonheterosexuality, greater rates of autoheterosexuality, and autistic gender alienation).
I have heard mention of an overlap in transgenderism and sleep disorders.
"How do we express ourselves without imposing"- it used to be called being polite and considerate.
Something Critical Theory has swept away as worthless.
Critical Theory also swept away motherhood and childhood for similar reasons. The great irony of Feminists placing a man's role at the peak of their aspirations.
It's the logical conclusion of the idea of False Consciousness and Social Deconstructionism.
Get rid of mechanisms that promote social norms and understanding. Burn it all down.
@@phililly Many autistic people state that the confusion comes from the fact that their brains typically want to make things “black” or “white”….they struggle harder with the concept of androgynous (along with others). Further, an addiction to pornography online, also not uncommon among autists contribute toward gender confusion - particularly with fetishes, such as “sissy hypno porn”.
Fantastic interview, Benjamin. I loved your guest, Phil, and look forward to hearing more from him in the future.
I miss the cats at the start. It's an expectation 😞
"League of Extraordinary GentleThem" 😂😂
Nicely punned Benjamin 👍
You mean the sexual fetish it’s not a sexual orientation. If you use that language you will be calling pedophillia a sexual orientation soon and it will be legalised.
Hmm, this is interesting. What's the distinction between fetish and orientation you think?
@@annabelroberts4792 completely different parts of the brain are involved. The research was done years ago. They are not researching these things now due to it NOT supporting gender identity ideology nonsense. Look up the work of James Cantor. He has been interviewed by Benjamin on this channel I think.
His book is out now, and funny enough he touches on this and where we draw the line. And spoiler alert he also calls it also a sexual orientation that obviously doesn't pass the do no harm test to be ethical in action. His intention of calling it orientation vs a fetish is it better communicates the degree it becomes an identity to the person and also transcends pure sex. E.g. MJ almost certainly was one and a large part of his identity, but it didn't make it OK.
@@Don-x1t sexual orientation and fetish occur in different parts of the brain. BRain scans and research from the 1990’s show this.
Other research shows that when alzheimers / senility set in sexual orientation remains while sexual fetish can be forgotten.
Excellent interview, thanks guys. Hope I get the opportunity to read the book.
Thank you so much for this insightful lecture. It is information I have not been exposed to before. Phil you are an incredible human being ❤
How many hours of porn was discussed?
@@somnus5238 not yet because I'm rather fed up with porn addictions feeding this fetish social contagion
@@somnus5238 I asked a legit question. The fact you were offended by it, truly isn't my problem.
So at the age of 5, you had fantasies as a male, having sex as a woman and somehow you think this is ok or normal?
5 year olds aren't sexually aroused nor have thoughts of having sex as the opposite sex unless they were introduced to sex by the predatory adults in their life.
No, this too isn't going to be normalized.
@@somnus5238 I was looking for a legit answer and no, this isn't going to be normalized
@@somnus5238 again, it won't be normalized.
@@somnus5238 Not in anyone with a sound mind.
We can keep this up all day. I believe your fake intent just as much as I believe you've never watched a drop of porn. Lies always show themselves & the truth is already inherent.
But nice try!
Very interesting topic. It’s good to have a better knowledge and broadcast of this phenomenon, but I think the vast majority of people in the West don’t care what people do in their private lives.
The issue that gets people riled up are the political ones- among them those involving infringement on women’s spaces (sports, locker rooms, sexual assault crisis centers, etc), the desire of some to expose young children to age-inappropriate sexual ideologies, and the rise of NewSpeak trying to enforce grotesque simulacra terms like “chest feeders” , “birthing people”, and “people with penises”. Illy was gracious in the acceptance that he is too physically imposing to entertain the idea of participating in women’s sports, but the opposite conclusion is made by too many.
@@amandak.4246 Agree 100%. I was referring more to “behind closed doors”, rather than the impact on the military, health care costs, women’s spaces, etc.
Regressives feel the same way about women, lgbtq+, minorities, etc. What exactly is your point here?
just starting, but thank you both for doing this.
I absolutely positively need your book in audio format in order to be able to “read” it. Which I am very eager to do.
This is an interesting and important topic to discuss. We need to learn more about autogynephilia so
I'll wager it's already been studied very closely in the psychiatric literature
Having experienced it myself, I totally understand some things that contributed and led to my feelings. And I have sympathy for people experiencing these things, like trans feelings and gender confusion. Ultimately, for me, I realized it was largely a cognitive and emotional thing, derived around sexual fetishim, and not that I was in the wrong body
It’s a misogynistic fetish derived from an obsession with displacing the female sex object. It’s correlated with other dangerous paraphilias like exhibitionism and voyeurism - crimes that have increased since men have been allowed into women’s spaces. It’s disgusting and usually starts when a man becomes addicted to pornography (usually “femdom”), anime, or stealing the underwear of women in his life for his own sexual gratification.
People should know about it. There’s a reason it’s more common in serial killers. Women should have clauses in their prenups granting them no-fault divorce if a man troons out. They shouldn’t be allowed to be cops, teachers, doctors, or in positions in power. Women should consider autogynephilia as a massive red flag and dump any and all men who exhibit it.
Research into autogynephilia has been stunted by male autogynephiles. Why? Because they want to continue recording women urinating, stealing used tampons, and flashing women in changerooms. Basically, modern day Ed Geins are stopping forensics research into the nature of their own crimes. It’s repugnant.
@@wormwoodcocktail you're right about a lot here, but seem to be overcorrecting in how to deal with this. Being barred from society simply for having these propensities is extreme and drastic and solves nothing for those experiencing such things.
It doesn't exist
I can't watch all of this. It is pretty obvious there is a mental illness going on. There uis also a lot of self love going on. He seems to want to love himself, so he can if he is a man and pretends to be a woman, problem solved.
I met a older man once. After 67 ,retired, big overweight. And you could tell, after being around him a while that he had issues (like c- dependence) but was also very smart and a reader. ANyway, one day we get around to talk and he tells me that he has lived a life of a transperson without being about to express it publicly. It started with puberty (I shld mention he was living in an apt w/strict Italian parents - He also was a big guy. Construction worker type. Not effeminate in the least. So, I was fascinated and would pick his brain endlessly. He was really gay. I asked him if would fantasize about males and he said not really. I would have to be as a woman to enjoy being with another man. Pretty incredible to think about. He just li
Hey now, most female autistics (and a few males,) are focused on people and animals. I'm an autistic animal lover, and I used to help people with reptile care every day. I would still be doing it if I had enough time. I actually love public speaking. One on one non-topical conversations make me sweat though.
If you want an example of what I'm talking about, look no further than our queen Temple Grandin 👑. She focused on the mindset of farm animals so much that she invented modern slaughterhouses as we know them today. She's now a professor, educating people about animal behavior.
'your brain is wired like a woman's'
This sentence is scientifically illiterate.
The variations in human brains is
1. the same variations can occur across the 2 sexes and all races etc.
2. brains are malleable, they change in response to stimuli.
3. The few sex specific variations are related to sexed bodies. e.g. men cannot have responses to menstruation because they cannot menstruate.
No matter what a man says to excuses his fetish he is not 'thinking like a woman', he does not have a woman's brain.
On average, agp guys tend to have *some* brain structures that are closer to female brains than the average male. This doesn't mean it's a carbon copy of a female brain. It just means that there are likely causes that are structural (intractable) in nature.
As for the brain being "malleable," this is not as relevant as you might think. Neural plasticity doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with it. Suggesting that neural plasticity means any structural difference can be trained into and out of existence is like saying you can drive an 18-wheeler to the top of Mount Everest just because the truck can go up and down hills.
@@somexp12
This is not true.
When talking about neuroscience you have to remember that in fact when you control there is no significant difference between male and female brains anyway.
In addition to which brains have plasticity. This means that they rewire in response to experience. So when researching brain differences similarity of experiences has to be taken into account.
There is a tiny, really tiny, area where brains of gay males on the whole - so a certain percentage of them - may have some miniscule similarity with brains of females people - again a certain percentage.
But that possible tiny difference from straight male brains is not apparent in AGP males.
The problem you have is the misinformation put out by TRA's where they take a possible difference in gay males and 'ship of theseus' it until it somehow becomes 'trans'.
@@AeronwenTrewent yes correct. I studied neurology during my masters degree. Brains are too individual to compare, the equivalent would be looking for similarities in snowflakes, impossible!
@@somexp12 incorrect. Neuroscience provides strong evidence that brains are so individual that they can't be grouped in any categories especially male and female or trans identifying males.
@@zenbumblebee What a marvellously succinct and expressive explanation. I am going to steal that.
I knew Lady Gaga was somehow responsible for this gender craze. 😂 Damn you Gagaaaaa! ✊
I still don't understand what he meant when he said "I love women, and wanted to be like them". What was it exactly that he felt he was loving and wanted to be like? There are all sorts of women out there, what was the 'essence' he was loving? Because wearing blue nail polish, eye shadow, and feminine clothing isn't the essence of womanhood, so that can't be it. What was it he was trying to embrace or become? What does 'feminine energy' mean to him?
Autogynephilia is real. They just labeled Blanchard as wrong. But it is obvious that there are certain feel of autogenephilia. It is visible when you read under detransition videos, so many people write basically about autogynephilia tendencies (like playing dolls or cars, desire being a tomboy for teenage girls etc). Personally I believe in Jung way of explaining it, so it is a debate what is a reason and what is a consequence
People have ALL kinds of weird things pop into their minds to include dark and twisted things. Just because certain thoughts or ideas pop into your mind and or are persistent DOESN'T mean that they should be ENTERTAINED and FED! Guess what happens when you feed something and dwell on it!? It GROWS and can CONSUME you with terrible results!
Sexual things don't really "grow" like that. What *can* happen is someone gets into the habit of responding to them in antisocial ways and then acclimates to violating other people's rights. What also can happen is certain people find violating taboos itself arousing, and they seek out greater and greater taboos as previous ones no longer feel so dangerous.
The idea of the sex offender getting consumed by pornography exposure and gradually developing more and more depraved kinks until they snap is mostly a myth perpetrated by predators telling interviewers what they want to hear. For example, when Ted Bundy gave his interview to Dr. Dobson. Bundy probably wouldn't have been looking for a harmless outlet because this would've spoiled the thrill of it. Most likely, his goal was always to become an awful human being.
Amazing guest. Best voice I have ever heard on this subject. Brilliant.
An incredible interview. Wow.
Every time I see one in the “lesbian” section of a dating app, I get severely uncomfortable because most of them are really creepy, overly sexual, & into hard core/strange kinks
This was a super interesting discussion. Phil was so open and able to describe the autogynophlic experience that I could put my judgement on hold to listen to him. Thanks for exploring this difficult topic in a sane manner.
When most of us start feeling sorry for ourselves over minor hiccups in our lives we need to remember how much some others suffer so terribly every minute of their lives. I wish we had sensible solutions for people who struggle with mental health issues like this. Alas, probably no funding or appetite for studying these issues and finding ways to help. Thank you Benjamin for allowing a few of these struggling individuals to educate us about their reality and allow us a little glimpse into these issues.
Suffer so terribly ? I don’t know what’s your value for actual suffering but it seems to me that you have a very high level of sensitivity.
@@Souxie123 If you have never had a mental illness you have no idea how much suffering that can entail. To dismiss mental suffering as minor is simply not accurate in many cases. It is simply an acknowledgment that some people never escape the anguish in their heads that never goes away.
@@dgh5760 sure but it’s not a mental illness but a fetish, a sexual one
@@Souxie123 Really? Why don't you consider a fetish to be a mental illness? Is it considered normal to have these kinds of compulsions?
@@dgh5760 the definition of normal ? A fetish is not a mental illness and may not be a pb as soon as the fetishist doesn’t harm (kids, animals etc.). A fetish is considered a paraphilia, not a mental illness.
1. Avoid pornography (especially trans)
2. Stop yourself from daydreaming (or while looking at your body parts)
3. Look women in the eyes (avoid body parts)
4. Admit to yourself that you love women and that you respond to female aesthetics
5. Admit to yourself that you feel intense love pain when a woman is attracted to you
6. admit to yourself that the root of that love pain is caused by the fear of abandonment and loneliness, which is characteristic of borderline cases
7. admit to yourself that autogynophilia is a maladaptive narcissistic character that serves to cope with that separation anxiety
8. you will experience anxious depressive episodes on the one hand and emptiness on the other - this is normal, because you have illuminated the root of your problem
9. admit to yourself that you are prone to partial dissociativeness, because if you weren't, you wouldn't have that mechanism of imagining yourself as a woman, your body part, different sado macho scenarios, etc.
10. KEY-use that dissociativeness in another direction:
-Stand in front of the mirror and look into your eyes. Imagine that the figure in the mirror loves you
-Don't worry, you won't become homosexual, because your problem is that you are extremely heterosexual with a strong fear of abandonment
-Over time, stronger and stronger narcissistic kicks will appear that serve you to overcome that fear, which you turned towards your own femininity, which is an integral part of every psyche
-You also imagine parts of that person's body in the mirror - in time you will feel those erotic love kicks like when you now imagine that you are a woman
- Start masturbating on that figure who loves you in the mirror, imagine his penis, eyes, chest and hands
- Do it regularly and enjoy it, because you will
-Over time, your daily thought will be taught to overcome that fear in this way, not autogynophilic.
-Women will excite you less, but they will bring you to the level of the average heterosexual who does not idealize women but sees them realistically
- This will allow you to connect more deeply with your partner over time
- Even if you happen to experience intense anxiety after an intensely deep relationship with a woman and an out-of-series orgasm (as if you were a little unprotected child), don't worry, because the image in the mirror will help you to quickly return to yourself
-Don't go overboard with the mirror image either, because the point is to connect with an average level of narcissism, not to become the greatest lover in the world
- Respect other people, because no one is without problems
-The rest of the time, try to control your emotions as much as you can, because the root of everything is that you are a borderline personality with a strong dissociative mechanism.
- Use antidepressants only when the sadness is too intense, since they numb the emotions, and that is the way to what we essentially call depression
-If this helps you, share further
p.s. It's likely that this approach will catch on when the fad of trans ideology passes and someone else takes the glory, but as long as it helps people, I'm fine with it.
Excellent talk, thank you for that. Though I wish you'd ask him for his thoughts about the psychological roots of Autogynephilia and to see if they align with those of Andrius/Clarity River who, based on a book he read, opined that the separation process of the boy from his mom could not be completed. If you did, my apologies, I could not be 100% attentive the entire time.
@@mrminer071166 huh? please rephrase im not that smart
@@mrminer071166 fascinating and I don’t disagree but for me, life is a never ending cycle of finding and losing solid ground and home and security never to be achieved for long. Along the way I picked some skills like jamming on a guitar and drawing but none of them can define who I am for very long. Also along the way I peered into some systems of thoughts and ideas and it helped me for a while to believe I’m an INFP but mbti is a model of archetypes and cannot tell you if you’re healthy and if not why not and how to fix it so I delved into narcissistic wounds theories and I might be covert narcissist but it wouldn’t help me much to know as those kind of personality disorders are manageable but incurable. Anyway, I’m rambling. The idea I brought up was quoted from Andrius which himself quoted a scholarly book. Search his video on this channel and either in the description or in the video itself, you’ll find an email to contact him. I did it about half a year ago and he was very kind and more than willing to help. I’m sure he can clarify it for you much better than I can as I haven’t read the book and don’t even remember its title, nor the author’s name
“Men trapped in men’s bodies “ by Anne Lawrence!!!She is an AGP male who wrote a very long book on this !
I was with an AGP male for a year ! They only love themselves as a woman. It’s not just about sex it’s about love for them. And as the outside woman, you could never compete!
I am sorry you had that experience! Ann Lawrence, understanding this dynamic, seems to think that AGP males should never date in order to avoid harm, getting themselves castrated if necessary.
"you take mushrooms as one does" man that sounds like me early adulthood 😂
Shrooms and lady gaga...well if it works for you..why not..
It’s very much a teenage girl image he seems drawn to. I’m trying hard to grasp all this. I find it very confusing to be honest.
Can we not just go back and call these people transvestites? When I was younger I know one transsexual woman and met some transvestites, these were very different people.
True. Back in my day (I am 60) it was just tranvestites and transsexuals and one could easily tell the difference between the two. New words, terms and phrases coined within the last twenty years and now everyone who either identifies or pretends to be the opposite of their birth gender is put under this large umbrella of “transgender” and it’s got many therapists and the media misinformed.
No, the AGP's fund and control the whole trans movement. They will always claim to be "a real woman" because they want access to female spaces at all costs.
They all have Transvestic paraphilias. The difference now is, men are getting braver in pushing their fetish on us. So few "trans women" have gender dysphoria, most are just acting out their paraphilia and demanding we play along.
Not when we are navigating a whole generation to understand themselves and make the right decisions in a world pushing gender transition.
Its so easy to say that. In the past, minorities were seen in a much worse way. Now, that the truth is revealed about them - that they were in silence the whole time to not be judged by others, you say things like this, like they are a burden for you because they suffer, and you see them doing that because they share experiences...
Cool music! Let's get this show on the road! :)
Phil Illy is a nice person, really appreciate this interview