Gendered Enough | a Detrans Story, with Leoaica Motanelul
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2024
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Rapid onset gender dysphoria = I spent 48 hours straight on the internet.
12:30 Here's my biggest difficulty with the Trans Identity: I'm biologically a man. I feel a certain way. I have no way of knowing how women feel, ***or even how other MEN feel***. I feel a certain way. I have some stereotypical male interests, and lack other stereotypical male interests. But that doesn't define how I "feel". To equate one's own gender identity with one "feeling like a man" or "feeling like a woman" doesn't sound like a remotely scientific basis upon which we should start radical medical treatments, nor create a need for society to validate those "feelings".
Thank you, I was just about say something similar. I know so many people and none of them are stereotypes. It is so that some people have sexual trauma that impacts their thinking in such a fundamental way that their view on the sexes is skewed in to something that creates self harm and difficulty with relationships.
I'm butch lesbian in middle 30s. As far as I remember I always wanted to be a boy. Each day I would pray to wake up as a boy. I wear only masculine clothes and even use old-fashioned cologne (like Chanel Antaeus or Drakkar Noir). Today a young person would be more likely to identify as transgender than gay. But no one can't change their sex. All we have is an illusion made by cross-sex hormones and surgeon. None of it is real. When people realize that they tend to detransition. So many FtMs would likewise grow up to be masculine women if they were left alone. But big pharma saw a new market, so these kids go on medications and surgeries for life.
"none of it is real". thank you. thats the issue i have. IMO, we are doing a disservice to trans people when we say things like "transwomen are women". we are preventing them from actually coming to terms with the reality of being transgender
@Dee Jay: well put. I'd lika also to say that being lesbian or even "butch" lesbian (or a tom boy) when puberty hits is awful.
On top of that put the pressure of society AND oneself to be "femenin" when you are not. To play girly, sucks and violates who you are. Just like when it happens to a "femenin" boy.
It"s called homophobia.
Nothing new under the sun.
But it's comming back.
And the most vulnurable will take the worst hit.
Add trauma and political agendas into all this and you have the perfect storm.
My question: where are the adults in the room??
@@mirrormirrorpool2935 I fought hard with my mum when I had to start wearing bras and shirts when swimming cause j was no longer like my brother. It hurt. And I am butch yes. I think a lot of it (for ftm) stems very much from that exact point and idea of it share to hit puberty and accept ur someone new and u now have restrictions and ur now somewhat lesser than I once were. I have always said as have some of my friend (we are in 30’s) if it was around when we were kids we surely would have pushed for transition.
@@lethalaffection9705 which is something that is necessary... There are things about my body that I can't change, like bone structure because it's just too late in the game for me. I wish there existed some sort of treatment that would help me actually accept this fact, but there isn't--at least not one specifically designed for this problem. HRT and surgery should not be the only solutions because they don't solve the entire problem.
It’s cool that you’re giving detrans people a platform. Certain communities are trying to silence them.
People need parents and friends to keep them grounded, that’s what’s my take away from this. People on the internet and so called therapists have an agenda, and not your best interest on mind.
@Haydee Gloss Why did you listen to him? I went to a gender therapist because of my AGP and he told me "hormones, are you f*ink crazy?"
Cat person interviews cat person.
The word "water" does not get us wet.
The problem is the obsession with language.
Words are not reality.
Words are only the signs and symbols
People are trapped in this confusion
Thinking the map is the territory
Mistaking the map for the territory, it happens alot.
Totally agree, language is just a abstract concept to help us understand the world and communicate with each other. I feel like a lot of SJW's need to reed some books on Zen.
Very true. Changing words doesn't change reality
I hate what they have done to these women. I hope she will be ok.
Being a woman doesn't always feel safe. I think that might be a key idea for her, considering that she experienced trauma at a young age. I dont know what trauma that is, but it sounds like abuse and the unsafe feeling of being a woman would make so much sense.
I'm still not convinced anyone can be "trans".
Gender appears to flow from sex. Cross culturally and throughout time the same gender binaries present themselves. There is some gender bending that happens and there are ppl with intersex conditions but the pattern of male/female, man/women always presents itself.
The claim that you can be born in the wrong body doesn't make sense either. What reference point could you use to know that?
I understand ppl being deeply uncomfortable and traumatised by their experience of being human. We are essentially an animal with the ability to be self aware and to think abstractly, if you're not freaked out by that then you're probably not very switched on.
//But if gender flows from sex then you can't transition between the genders. You can try to promote the expression of some of the secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex and you can alter your behaviour but you can't transition from one to the other.
Well, to answer one of the questions, being born on the wrong body was supposed to be a chill description of a mental illness... Dysphoria is pretty fucked up and in this area, it just means that the genitalia and body form feels wrong, disgusting and painful for the person, to the point of wanting to continuously hiding it or mutilating it. It's hard to understand, but compare it to when puberty hits and you're uncomfortable af, but X1000. It was taken seriously before at least. The point of reference is usually what the person wants to get rid off, instead of what they want to become.
@@paunaic5460 well I know you think you're speaking sound logic, but if we were face to face I'd bet you'd stop talking and stare at your feet.
@@VVershCSIV uh... okay buddy
So transgenderism can happen and gender does not flow from sex. Gender is a set of biological mechinism designed to operate your sex. During the prenatal phase out brains and body from at different times. If you are make you would typically receive more test for the body and brain but for Transgenderism to happen the mother would have a hormone imbalance between those 2 stages so that the brain has connections and structures for the opposite sex. As a person grows up the brains mechanisms to orientate your sex and your physical sex differ so you see the development of gender dysphoria. It becomes worse as a person hits puberty if its to extreme and the brain is unable to correct its connections and structures enough gender dysphoria will carry into adulthood and make it incredibly difficult for a person to function as the brain is unable to accept the biological sex. they are tied together though. Oxford has multiple studies published about brains being sexed and how hormones affect the brain. There are also studies showing trans people brains resembling that of the opposite sex.
@@mattiOTX yea, it's one of those areas where ppl sight studies that support their positions. I'm not a scientist but there's always a bunch of different studies about "male brains" and "female brains". one lot of studies will prove one side is right and then another lot will undermine the firsts positions entirely.
To my eyes the trans issue has clearly become primarily political and philosophical, not scientific.
(It looks like your first two sentences contradict each other. )
The study about autoandrophylia was done by Blanchard. It was a VERY small study though, because the condition was rare.
What he had discovered was that the few women who exhibited symptoms where not aroused by the idea of "turning into men". One of the factors, although I believe there are probably others, was arousal from the act of gay sex and being able to participate, maybe due to roles/acts in the bedroom being different and a different partner dynamic, among other things. It was actually not the objectification of gay men themselves. It was quite different from the common AGP found in men. But this would make sense considering that males tend to be more object oriented and women are often more people oriented and this effects sexuality to an extent.
You can probably find the reference on Blanchard's twitter, or message him and I'm sure he could maybe link it. His main test subject also had Borderline personality disorder. BDP often causes feeling of body dysmorphia and/or dyshoria and lack of sense of self.
I wonder if it is more common now because of internet fandom and m/m fanfiction & shipping etc
@@jupiterisaak1004 1000%
This interview is great. Just got referred to it by Leigh. Autoandrophelia needs to be talked about. It's crummy when people claim it doesn't exist. That's like saying women can't have a sexuality or sexual fetishes. But it goes deeper than just that. It's self hatred. As a woman, you feel so terrible about being a woman and participating in heterosexual relationships that you feel you must be a gay man instead. Because gay male relationships are "superior". Just the same as with men who are autogynephilic. It's incredibly selfish and honestly pretty sick. I'm so glad I'm not tied up in that paraphilia any more. There's nothing wrong with heterosexuality, just as homosexuality is completely fine. It truly amazes me how we twist things in our brains about stuff like this, especially on the basis of self hatred.
Thank you for making this interview, Ben. :) Leigh is incredibly insightful and full of valuable information.
I see your cat is cannily keeping an eye out for danger 😁
Edit: "Being objectified as a woman felt unsafe," -- I think that's a really good way to describe it.
Yes! That cat's adorable and should sit in on every interview IMHO
Sexually abused by her therapist. Abusive relationship between therapist and gender dysphoric patients seems like a disturbing trend.
21:45 she did say she wanted to look like a young boy and a full beard is not the idea of herself she had. I wonder if that is worth exploring.
I believe it's the same thing with Ash Hardell
Well she got what she wanted she looks like a young boy
I find Lee very much someone I can relate with.
My parents didn't push gender roles, they encouraged stoicism and independence. So I never got a clear sense of what being female is beyond the obvious biological attributes. A female has a vagina; that is the extent of my understanding. I am an Xer, maybe other gen Xers can understand that best. We were this generation not so hung up on race and gender. It isn't what defines a person.
Prepuberty sex education introduced realities that I did not like at all.
I got along with boys more than girls and as we got older I preferred casual style and getting dirty to preening and boy chasing. I definitely wasn't what I envisioned as female aesthetically. Butched hair or long hair just combed, no makeup, not a fan of frills though I did like skirts. I still like skirts. The idea of breasts and periods was just so alien. I am in my 40s and I still hate it.
It distresses me though, to think that had the option presented itself or been mainstream I might have glommed onto the idea that I was transgender or(worse)my parents might have been directed to treat me like a boy and even to direct me toward transition because being female us uncomfortable but I am not a man either, I am also not not a female. I am absolutely female. I hate my period but I loved being pregnant and having my kids.
I hate being stereotyped as a not feminine enough or too male. It's stupid and kind of gross.
Although it's endearing from my husband who says it as a compliment and not as an insult, he's a little femme and I'm a bit of a guy but still he is a man and I am a woman.
@@silentvoice4970 I passed it on to my kids and let them lead, to a certain extent. My daughter is a girly girl. Given the choices between clothes that were pretty and clothes that were functional she chose pretty, she is also on the autism spectrum(diagnosed)so she is highly analytical.
My son is thoughtful, nurturing, stoic, insightful, and abrupt. Actually both are abrupt. They are both focused and secure in their persons.
It’s fine to be a masculine woman or a feminine man.
Ben: It sounds like an autoimmune thing. Get checked for lupus (I have it, and so does my 22yo son.).
I'VE BEEN WAITING AND HOPING FOR THIS VIDEO FOR SO LONG!! thank you guys!!
Here's the thing about being physically objectified: I only welcome it from my partner, not random men while I'm living my life out in the world. And even though I welcome it from my partner, he would not be my partner if he saw/treated me in an objectified way all or even much of the time! I agree there's a power differential that makes being objectified as a woman very different than for men. You elucidated that brilliantly. How much better society would be for all if we'd had a similar experience to you, opening our perspectives and affording us more empathy for the feelings of others. Great interview.
well put
So neither did you answer, what the difference is between being desired and objectified. You don't welcome being desired by other men?? It makes no sense.
You don't have to conform to normal gender stereotypes to be a woman or a man. That's what I get out of this.
15:21 I'm a cis woman but I've idolized male gay romance (mainly because of it's equal power energy) since I started reading fanfic, as a preteen. I still, to this day, find it very hard to read straight/lesbian romances.
There is something in the fanfic world called ABO verse, and I always wondered why it is so prevalent. It's one of the most common fanfic tropes. I've never liked it, because these types of relationships feel completely unequal to me, but SO MANY young girls do. Interesting how they enjoy reading gay fiction, but that is featuring completely unequal relationships, which are unequal because of (usually) an uncontrolable urge.
Someone needs to do a full psychoanalysis of fan-fiction written by women and write a book
Roman's were very into love between equals, so man love was ultimate. Didn't turn out so well for women.
Lovely humans humaning together. Yay. Thanks for the ongoing content and both demonstrating civil respectful conversation.
Great interview! I was excited to see Leigh here, because I watch her videos, too. I greatly appreciate what Leigh is doing, because it is a largely thankless effort (and so is Benjamin's, for that matter!). For simply saying, "Hey, maybe we should slow down a little", Leigh is called a transphobe-bigot-TERF-"you-were-never-really trans"-hater-fraud, despite her own first-hand experiences. But she replies with compassion and patience (you can see this in the comments on her videos).
Specifically, I think Leigh is breaking ground on the wider issue of mental health in the trans community. I am especially interested in her insight on BPD (borderline personality disorder) in the trans community, and how the classic core symptom of BPD -- which is an "unstable sense of self" -- might be responsible for gender dysphoria in some individuals who come to believe that they are trans. Here is a good video that she did on this matter, for anyone interested:
ua-cam.com/video/NE_ic32d80M/v-deo.html
I have been researching this, too, and I think this topic (BPD prevalence in trans individuals) may prove to be a major development in the coming years as more individuals (especially young women) detransition, because as Leigh mentions, sometimes it is only after the transisition/detransition cycle that individuals are actually offered the proper mental health intervention that they would have be offered *before* the trans-mania of the last decade or so.
In the past, these issues might have been discussed with a mental health practitioner, but today a practitioner is accused of malpractice or of attempted "conversion therapy" for even daring to suggest that a gender dysphoric individual's perspective might be shaped by non-trans-related mental phenomenon (ie, trauma, BPD, NPD, autistic spectrum, CPSTD, etc). In some US states, to do so is illegal, and I think it is illegal in most of Canada.
That people aren't offered proper mental health invention but instead scurried off to medical intervention/HRT/SRS surgery, is a direct result of the erroneous (and in my opinion, exceedingly cruel) practice of "affirmation-only" treatment approaches. This is because affirmation-only approaches elevate transition above any other possible remedies and typically present transition as a panacea -- even to individuals who might actually have significant comorbidities which are not only more fundamental than their gender dysphoria (ie, possible *causes* for their gender dysphoria), but that might also be more responsive to treatment. Leigh, and so many other detransitioners, are living proof that transition is not the panacea we are told it is (which is why the radical trans activists must call her names and discredit her, shamefully).
The other cruelty is that for those with BPD, infallible emotional thinking/conclusion is something they deal with all the time. This is to say that many borderlines are absolutely *convinced* by their emotions, to the degree that they feel their emotional responses are infallible. This explains much of their behavior, especially their tendency to engage in "splitting" and "black/white thinking". This is not their fault, of course, but when this tendency is over-laid with gender dysphoria, then the individual is absolutely convinced that their "feeling" is correct and that it cannot possibly be wrong. It is, then, devastating for those individuals when they do transition, only to discover that that transition "isn't working". They can fall into a dangerous spiral of self de-valuation and very severe depression.
I think we will soon find that many people (young women especially) who transition/detransition are actually borderlines, or have significant borderline traits, which I think may prove to be a common *cause* for gender dysphoria (not the only cause, of course, but one of many).
Also, there has been some recent research which shows that males who transition to women have much higher incidence of NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) and NPD traits than the general population. In my opinion, these discoveries and many others are why "affirmation only" is not a good idea, and the sooner we re-think that approach, the better. They also ought to be huge neon "STOP!" sign when it comes to transitioning children.
"I believe that there are true trans individuals out there" I'm not _trying_ to be an asshole, but what does that even mean? I would love to know.
It’s easier to say “I was wrong” than “I devoted years of my life to an entire worldview that was wrong.”
That some of us true trans people actually exist and she does not think she is one.
My interpretation is
"I'm afraid of the consequences I might face if I come out and call the whole thing a farce, so I'm taking a politically correct stance on the issue."
There's no such thing. True trans is those who commit their entire life to a nebulous idea of what they think gender is. Gender isn't what they think it is. It's all tribalist hierarchy of who can be the "best" at this idea. I thought I was true trans, Leigh is textbook "true trans" but we both detransitioned.
This is about the third or fourth time I've tried to complete this video. I thank the interviewee for their sincerity.
An insight into the confusion between sex and gender /gender roles/stereotyping. How sad. Being female is vested in whether you change a tyre or not etc.
I'm intetested to know how anyone knows how they are perceived by others in public spaces. Short of name calling /physical abuse by the public, how does anyone know how they're being perceived perceived?
Most people look at "unusual ones" and just don't say. We walk on. We accept the suspect appearance in the toilet - who wants a confrontation with a stranger?
And your "friends" ? Well, you'll be lucky to find one who gives you an honest opinion, knowing the medical journey you've put yourself through.
As for the concept (in another comment) of an "empowering feminist journey" - what could be less feminist than wanting to be (etc) a man? Imo
NO ONE KNOWS what other people feel like - male or female, young or old, black or white.
That is why the statement ' I am a man/woman in the wrong body' is absurd because it is neither provable or disprovable.
It is just an imagined feeling and I am impressed how refreshingly honest this woman is.
Plus, she is pretty😁
First I'm glad she found peace and second she is right there are not as many of us as people like to portray.
Yet.
@@Ao456kl yet what?
You're the sweetest most wise and charming man Benjamin. You're a model of a thinking person.
5:38 "I have a rich trauma history"
Interesting way of describing it
One big question I would have for leoaica is how the process of ageing might change their self immage?
Leo said they see their ideal kinda body immage as a sorta prepubescent boy.
But the effects of ageing will eventually take that away. They will be left with a immage that can't be fought against.
I would ask this question of all "young" trans/non-binary people. Do they think they will age as the ideal immage they want to maintain?
You are a good interviewer. I always enjoy the conversation.
This was an interesting interview. The older i get the more i appreciate how complex sexual orientation and gender expression can be.
The way i see objectification v desire is that when someone is objectified theyre being reduced to a specific utility and their full humanity essentially ignored. So sexual objectification is to reduce a person's worth to their ability to sexually excite, and economic objectification is to reduce a person's worth to the skills and energy they expend to produce a commodity or service. You can desire someone without reducing them in such a way.
I just see a lot of people who are too concerned with roles and don't question them enough. Be the change you want to see happening!
We aren't defined by the box used by society to aggregate us. The box is an approximation of reality not a prescription.
I can relate to not knowing what people mean when they say they feel like a specific gender. And not knowing what that even means.
Ahh, I love Lee, I actually recommended her under a video to talk to you!! :)
Objectified is you are treated as an object and does not extend past the physical where desired extends past the realm of physical attraction and use. At least as I understand this.
I'm glad to see Ben differentiate between being objectified and being desired. these are NOT the same thing but a lot of people seem to think they are and it causes a lot of miscommunication
I think to objectify just means to not respect a persons humanity, autonomy or self-determination in all context of attraction. So for all rapes an objectification is a necessary condition, but not all objectification is rape. The rapist is obviously attracted to his victim but that doesnt matter. I ask myself if a look can also be objectifiying? Why can't we judge just one aspect of a human being, like the appearance of someone or just the aspect of how much someone turns oneself on? I dont think that objectifying is a problem in terms of rights and what you are allowed or not allowed to do. But it may be interesting to use objectification in judging the health of a relationship.
There is definitly a difference between loving someone and willing to do anything for them or using somebody as an object to satisfy ones lust. It seems like this objectification topic is just a usefull subject for talking about the health of relationships. Funny enough catholics and other religious people strongly are in favour of love and against the sole usage of somebody as an satisfaction Tool. It's funny that basically the right and the left agree on this point but it hasn't been explained well enough and alienated people, if im right in my understanding.
I dont know if one night stands are good or bad and even on what Dimension. Ofc when both do it consentually then its no Problem but is it good or bad for the soul? Ons are definitly an objectification celebration.
When you look at porn or stuff, you dont really care about the performers desires, so you are also objectifying them, but you are doing it without the performer noticing it, so you haven't affected the performer at all, so it doesn't matter. Furthermore given that a porn performer is doing it voluntarily then there is also no problem. I ask myself if a prostitute objectifies her customers because she sees them just as money Machines and not as human beings and the customers objectify her as a satisfaction Tool, and i ask myself if that musn't be soul crushing?
@@dualfluidreactor rape does not require objectification, same with killing. You can recognize them as a person and still commit atrocious acts. Objectification is how the military teaches you, you think of the person as a target. There is no other attachments. It makes it easier to shoot someone because most people are not killers. Most of the time the majority of soldiers just shoot around the enemy because even being taught how to objectify someone it's still hard to implement when things get chaotic.
@@dualfluidreactor good or bad for the soul hmmm. I tend to not look at actions as good or bad. Not to say I'm a sociopath, I am an aspie though so I'm very logical. It's kinda hard to judge some actions as good or bad without seeing the outcome. I believe their are bad beliefs such as the current woke left. Actions on the other hand are kinda goofy if they are not obvious. Like rape, murder, stealing.
Ps I'm still reading your comment and replying, it's easier for me to sort my thoughts. Thank you for your understanding.
@@dualfluidreactor I don't know if people are objectifying pornstars. I think that might be the opposite. They are embracing that person's expression of self. It all might be used to accomplish a goal for both parties in which case it's business. On the other hand even close relationships people are using each other. They may really like or eve love the person but they are still using one another. Someone to grow old with, to take care of one another. At the basic level human society is about use. Unlike the woke though I'm a liberal who thinks we should probably keep our general system and fix a few things. I don't want to throw western society away full of myself thinking that I can build it better than long established chains of wisdom that have stood test of time. Religion being one of those pillars. I'm a UA-cam student of Dr Peterson lol
Sounds like she’s still working it out
She is and fully admits that it's a journey. Are you still working on things?
Me No I’ll be sure to check with you from now on, Me No, that all my thinking is correct and doesn’t offend you
"It's not true gender dysphoria because it was caused by trauma," sounds to my ear like "It's not true asphyxia because it was caused by water in the lungs instead of garrote."
This confusion in language has to stop. Terms need to be openly and clearly defined so everyone can tell what we're actually talking about.
Yeah, it sounds to me like she doesn’t want to offend the trans community. Sounds like something that a trans person that doesn’t believe in detransitioning would say.
I can't imagine obsessing this much about my gender, my looks, what kind of man/woman I want to be, how I want others to perceive me, how my body looks (except muscle tone/fat), where I fall on some spectrum of masculinity-femininity etc. I am constantly discovering and exploring thoughts and points of view and trying out perspectives and challenging my fears, finding my boundaries, etc etc. and trying to learn new things. It must be very exhausting to be that obsessed.
Does anyone know where Leoaica Motanelul is now in 2022? I just hope sh'e okay.
Stellaris! The game my friends got me for my birthday and proceeded to not give me any pointers on how to do anything. Maybe I'll reinstall it and do the dirty work myself
“In my mind there were all these ideas about how a man should be...” If we only would be able to have lesser strong gender stereotypes in our mind we’ll have less people harming their body to adequate it to these gender stereotypes...
Another very interesting and inspiring interview - Leoaica sounds like a wonderful person who has fought through her difficulties to reach, I hope, a positive and fulfilling life.
One thing, though, that her story does seem to bring out is how damaging (I won't say h*rmf*l, for obvious reasons) the politicization of the issue has become. We can clearly see, through her account, the differences between the gender roles imposed by society - men are supposed to be like this, women are supposed to be like that - and her realization that she doesn't really fit into either of them, her personal dissatisfaction (perhaps a stronger word might be appropriate) with her body, and her biological sex. In an ideal, or even a tolerable, world, the label "non-binary" seems exceptionally appropriate to her. However. If someone says "I _identify as_ non-binary" today, they're immediately associating themselves with a particular ideology and everything that comes with it - a point that many of your guests have made. The SJW movement, despite its avowed aims, has _prevented_ Leoaica and people like her from being comfortable in and honest about her true identity. Keep up the fight against it!
"I won't say h*rmf*l, for obvious reasons"
It 's not obvious to me...
@@zecchinoroni "Harmful" is the most common description by SJWs for opinions that disagree with theirs. Benjamin frequently emphasises this in his videos.
Leoaica in Romanian is what we call a Female Lion.... Motanel in Romanian is Male Cat.... very very interesting name lol
In the 70's you could be anything you want to be. No need for surgeries, no need for labels. We didn't talk about gender, just be who you want to be: David Bowie, Boy George, so many examples in celebrity world, where it is celebrated. It seems we have lost the freedom somewhere. Changing fysical appearance to fit labels! Endangering health by using hormonal supplements for the rest of your life. Transition-detransition..omg, so sad.
Hi Benjamin,
I'm only half way the video and I am sitting here with my jaw dropped, because this conversation touches on so may things I have been wondering about for a long time. I am in a Tumblr Vampire Chronicles fandom, dominated by women playing gay men and it always fascinated me how big that demographic is (reaching basically into any fandom imaginable) and how closely related that community is to trans identifying people. I always believed there was a link and I have always wanted to start an investigation into this, but did not know where to start. Only just learning the word autoandrophilia opened up that door for me. Thank you for this crutch!
Also, it sounds to me like our dear friend, was attracted to the idea of being a boy. Not a man. Boys are unique, because they can have this androgynous flair, that girls, nor women have and boys lose when they become men. So becoming too masculine, was not what he wanted. And I understand. I wrote my thesis on the unique beauty of boys and Germaine Greer wrote about it too in the book The Boy. It's a fascinating read. Okay, I'm going to continue watching now. ♥
If you haven't watched this one between @GNC_Centric and I, it goes into the gay fandom topic quite deeply: ua-cam.com/video/QAMar22S0ck/v-deo.html
@@BenjaminABoyce WOW thanks so much!!! This is literally the first thing I found about it. Is there more, do you know? (Will watch this one tonight. Thank you for contacting me directly ♡)
Look into GNC Centric’s channel or our other interviews. I’m not sure if there’s a central location for research into this-if you’re a writer it might be something to consider covering in more depth!
@@BenjaminABoyce It's certainly a start! Thank you do much. ♡
@26:12 doesn’t sit well with me. Some traits are listed that are stereotypically feminine, and are then tied to the idea of “being a better man”. So a better man is one who behaves like a woman (stereotypically)? I’m not sure this was the intention (prob not exactly), but it read with a masculinity=toxic vibe to me.
Using one trait listed as an example - “take care of people”. The masculine version of that would be protect or provide for other people. A no less necessary function (and imo virtuous), but it’s a worse version of a man?
semantics? "take care of people" can mean "protect or provide" for other people. and you think being caring is only for women? is kindness a gendered trait to you? that sounds kinda sexist to me.
I drew from the context of other traits listed, and other comments during the discussion. It wasn’t mentioned in a vacuum. Of course a man can be nurturing and kind and it’s perfectly fine, but those are archetypically feminine traits. The exclusion of archetypically masculine traits and the association with “being a better man” is what rubs wrong.
@@HO-zi5qe what ideal "masculine" traits would you like to hear used in a description of a "better man"? honest question.
@RM - idk that I’d tie “better man” to gendered traits. I’d struggle to call a man who is, say, assertive and industrious a better man than one who is agreeable and compassionate just on the traits alone. In each case, the man could be better or worse than the average man depending on how they manifest those traits and make an impact on the world around them. Either version could be good. Or, you could be assertive and industrious to the point where you destroy the lives of those around you - you could be agreeable and compassionate to the point you enable bad behavior of those around you and allow destruction to occur. I don’t see the traits as being the thing that makes a “better man”.
To be a better man, I’d say the important thing is to find a purpose that benefits you, your family, and your community. Find a burden and lift it, carry it for the betterment of of those things. If you do that through the arms of personal traits that are more commonly found in men or more commonly in women isn’t the important thing.
If I’m picking something archetypically masculine, I’d say be a protector, be a provider. Be strong and dependable. But I wouldn’t say those things are necessary to be a “better man”. Outliers, men who have a stronger nurturing side, can be a “better man” too. But it’s not the traits themselves - you can be a protector and provider who’s a tyrant, you can be a toxic nurturer who cripples growth by doing everything for those in your care. Masculine and feminine traits have their positive and negative sides.
My issue with that bit in the interview was the implication that most men need to be better, and the reason they need to be better is they lack these feminine traits. It would rub me just as wrong if a person said ‘I want to be an unusual woman, a woman who is assertive and industrious and protects people around her - I want to be a better woman than most of the women out there’
@@HO-zi5qe thanks for the detailed response. I feel I understand better where you're coming from now. Things to think about.
To what extent is this idea of using consumable medicine and surgery as a palliative for identity problems a bi-product of consumer culture?
I love listening to podcasts like yours while playing stellaris, funny to see you like stellaris too.
The more interviews I watch the more I see two things emerge.
1 self hatred and the positive effect of the development of self love.
2 the problems that all these labels bring to people who are trying to find which label they fit under.
I would love to understand what would happen if people were helped to learn radical self acceptance and self love and labelling themselves (ourselves) as just ‘me’.
After all no matter our gender or appearance, the sooner as individuals we develop self confidence in our lives the sooner we can get on with the things in our lives which bring us fulfilment, peace and inevitably love.
testosterone is a hell of a drug, i thought that was a gay fella.
It's not testosterone, it's her original look that makes her look like that. Testosterone does 2% of the job if that. I'm 9 years on testosterone and I still look like Britney Spears :)
@Leoaica Motanelul thanks for the reply, im glad you are happy the way you are but when all is said and done?
was it really necessary?
could you have been happy just being you?
i fear trhat a lot of people , especially those who are very young, are going to destroy their lives with this medicalised erxperimentation and meddling.
@@chaimnissim8813 nope, im 50 years old and never in my life have i mistaken a woman for a man.
true androgyny is incredibly rare.
she might well have looked like a masculine female beforehand but she still looked female i will bet you any money, if not?
then why bother transitioning?
@Leoaica Motanelul im worried that we even entertain such language, "trans children" is not something that exists, its something that they are trying to create.
i think the language itself has become very dangerous, "transitioning betwixt sexes is not possible.
yet this label is what it is, it panders to a delusion, no matter if its a hopeful one, no matter if its brimming with acceptance and inclusion, its still not possible.
in fact its far far worse because of the hope it inspires that such a transition is possible, to teach kids that it is?
even if they were denied the chance to transition at an early age?
is pure child abuse and medical malpractice on a scale never before seen.
I think after 2 to 3 years of therapy for all other issues if gender dysphoria is an extreme case I could see transitioning at 15 though no sooner. I would have been one of those cases had my therapists growing up knew what gender dysphoria was. We do need gatekeeping for sure.
Most kids desist from trans identities during puberty (50 - 90%). There's also data that puberty blockers has negative implications for bone health, brain health, mood disorders, suicidality, and fertility. IMO we should allow trans kids to go through puberty to allow for desistance should happen and the kids who don't desist by mid puberty should be helped through transition (but with CAUTION!)
27:38 doing the right thing never makes you safe. Although sometimes you have to pick your battles too
Females and males come in all sorts of different shapes, sizes and we need to just assure our children and young people that they are 100% fine the way they are. If you’re gender non-conforming that is absolutely fine, just because a little boy wants to play with dolls or a little girl wants to play with trucks it doesn’t mean they aren’t in the correct body/gender/sex it just means they are playing with the toy they like. Just let people be who they are.
So I'm hearing insecurity is a thing we need to confront. Some people obsess over it, others don't.
Love the term gender non conforming woman ... that’s me! As a girl I felt masculine my whole life, was a Tom boy and “one of the guys” as a teenager.
I felt like a gay man in a woman’s body. I only began to be more in touch with my feminine side a couple years ago as I was approaching 50.
I went looking for it. It’s more of an internal thing than external for me although I’m much more comfortable now wearing feminine attire that is flattering to my figure :)
Leigh is awesome. Love this. ❤️
Oh my god she hasn’t been on for so long. I’m glad to know she is healthy
There was a video where j was saying “you’re not always what you think you are” and people ATTACKED me. They were triggered and started saying like “no, you can be whatever you want, biology has nothing to do with it”
Sounds like a bunch of dummies.
The average person doesn't live such a complicated existence
Stellaris ! A man of culture I see ! ;) love your Channel, best regards from France !
Trauma would cause a disassociation in your brain to try to cope with it.
In this case, it seems like you've internalized the trauma and associated that happening with your being a girl, 'this wouldn't have happened if I were a boy.'
If we don't acknowledge the underlying trauma causing these thoughts, you will continue to walk a path you're not meant to be on..
This was an incredibly interesting and insightful interview.
I was watching Leoaica's videos just today after seeing her at Mars's channel incidentally. If this interview wasn't as personal and as much about gender, just by the way she's talking and ending your questions with a "yes" almost every time I would say that this she's a socially intelligent person in her manic phase. I don't say this to insult her, I've recognized that because I had more hypomania at her age. :)
Strange things people do with themselves. I used to be in a one to one cult as an adolescent for 6 years (which is always abusive in part and by nature) and that later helped me stand more firmly on my own feet. I never regretted being in it or felt damaged by it. There was one thing though. I stopped eating meat because of that relationship, which helped me avoid certain diseases that run in my family, and continued to be a vegetarian for the next 17 years after that relationship was ended (by me). Kind of with what she did with testosterone and her identity formation. Yet, 5 years ago I stopped that. Then I found out how hypomanic phases I had in life were connected to my body and food more than my "mind".
I saw L talking about dieting, just thought I might leave this story here. ;)
"Leoaica Motanelul" means Lioness Tomcat kitten
The one thing that strikes me most from these interviews (not all of them) is that a lot of these people spend way too much time thinking about themselves. The reason ‘gender identity’ is such a middle class thing is because the middle classes don’t have enough actual problems to worry about. If these people spent more time thinking about others, doing thing for others, and living outwardly, they wouldn’t worry so much about their gender or how other people see them. What a waste of a life. It’s sad because a lot of them speak eloquently and intelligently - if only they could channel that energy outward instead of navel-gazing.
I know that I am not the same person presently that I thought I was during my teens. I look back wondering who the hell was that person!
People do change and hopefully, evolve with age and experience.
Have you taken any antibiotics lately, Benjamin? If so, check if they are from the fluoroquinolone family of biotics. Fluoro toxicity causes similar symptoms.
I hope she reported the gender "therapist" to the appropriate professional association.
16:05 I really had to pause the video and think about that one for awhile
I know quite a few straight women who prefer lesbian porn because it tends to be more equal and lack power differentials compared to mainstream hetero porn where men act very aggressive and domineering.
"society" is starting to sound like a big ol' excuse
I think trans dudes have more luck with bi women and men.
Strange how it’s not ok these days to be just a lesbian. The ‘Therapist’ needs to be reported and struck off
13:40 "listen to the way you treat your body when someone else is objectifying you"
Really interesting. Not something ive thought about, because ive really never been objectified all that much.
35:35 "The bathroom where you are the safest." An idea--if you're harassing others in the other bathroom, are you really being "safe"? Like, it's not you at danger, it's someone else at danger, and can you be truly safe if it's others you're putting in danger? (Overall I think we just need to make family/unisex bathrooms be a thing next to the male/female ones, but yanno, if there's got to be a binary, it's maybe an aspect to consider.)
39:10 That's me. Always felt like one of the dudes, have an unusually high testosterone to prove it, though never had much discomfort about puberty except that these dang things on my chest were uncomfortable to run with until I discovered underwire bras. I had a pretty messed up teenagerhood as it was, though. I can't IMAGINE adding on the medicalization of a transition on top of that, and I'm sure I would have considered it if it had been a thing back then. Now, I love my body. Just turned out I had to lose some weight and learn some dance to really be able to feel it, and feel beautiful in it (which I do now).
If someone is harassing others in bathrooms they should be kicked out but most gnc and trans people are just trying to pee. Others being uncomfortable around them doesn't necessarily mean they were harassing people. Obviously there's always going to be a percentage of people who claim to be trans and enter certain spaces for malicious intent and that's a problem
20:00 I don’t want to put words in the lady’s mouth, obviously, but it sounds (to me) like she simply accepted her homosexuality, at that point.
My niece is going through the same thing and I suspect that she’s bisexual and needs the same epiphany as BB’s guest.
Objectification.
"... It depends on how they do it."
Or, rather, it depends on 'who' does it?
Perhaps there should be three spaces. A men's space, a women's space and a gender neutral one. IMO that's a good work around. I relate to leoaica. I'm pretty masculine so I get odd looks in female spaces but I feel uncomfortable in male spaces. There are certain situations where the female space is the most comfortable however. So I think a third space would help me sometimes and women only spaces in other situations
What happened to Leigh’s channel?
Mannnnn it really is tricky. On the one hand I totally see her point (around 29:00) regarding how exhausting it can be to live up to male stereotypes all the time. But I dont know part of me feels like in our cutthroat world (not really right now but evolutionary) that's just the price that needs to be paid sometimes.
I'm quite feminine and small, and I've given up on the male stereotypes, probably why women never see me as partner material. That's life I guess.
@@Tim_G_Bennett hmmm not necessarily I don't think. There is a certain amount of "alphaness" that definitely comes to play in a dating sense I would say. But the older I get the more I realize it doesn't have to be a phsyical macho alpha. It can be a calm, assertive, would totally listen to this guy in a crisis alpha.
@@joelvilleneuve7037 Thanks, I found out a few years ago (at 40) I'm autistic (Asperger's) that doesn't help anything. I'm getting worn down by the all men are bad thing that's everywhere now though. I'm a volunteer ambulance officer so I'm good in a crisis though.
@@Tim_G_Bennett That is a crazy story man! Way to overcome. Reminds me of the good doctor but ambulance spin-off version :P
And i'm completely with you on the "all men are bad" thing. I think it feels particularly cutting to people (like myself) who really bought into the feminism thing and tried to downplay our own "male privilege". I feel like it becomes a bit self-fulfilling however. I thought I was being morally superior and doing the right thing, but deep down I really just wanted woman, and it seemed to be implied that woman wanted more sensitive, conscientious men. However when it turns out that they aren't really _attracted_ to that man, young men like myself get resentful and lash out... and end up going too far and turning into the exact fratbro types we thought we hated. Hence self-fulfilling lol.
It also allows for a complete shift of mindset when you drop the baggage of "male priviledge". It's the difference between viewing hard work (especially historically) as something you are doing to gain power over women, and something you are doing to protect and advance your woman. The second is much more empowering I am learning!
But keep it up Tim! I'm sure it'll end well if you persevere. 40 is after-all the new 30 :P . (btw I definitely stole that idea from someone, probably Jordan Peterson lol)
29:40 you were not perceived as a threat. Women tend to want a man who can be a threat yet has tempered his aggression. It might be women saw you as someone who could not be a threat so in turn you also could not be seen as a protector.
U made me turn my phone sideways. Yup. Duh. 😀
@@heidileeshire5959 I don't follow lol what do you mean?
I agree with autoandrofilia, I dont know If I have it or if I am really a trans guy.
Oh! I literally thought this was a cute gay guy. I thought, well, he's detransitioned, but at least there are no visible effects. He just looks cute. But shes' a woman! In that case, the cross-sex hormones have had a very noticable effect, unfortunatley. I can only imagine how confusing it would be to wrongly use cross-sex hormones, and deal with the after effects.
Benjamin You’re a Good listener
I don't know, I think this generation is experiencing things in a way that we didn't, it's not their fault, I think that first of all the world is in crisis and they are witnessing things like animal species dying out, global warming, lots of class and wealth disparity and I think that they are more fragile: social media, internet are contributing factors. We want to be kind to people but people are more and more demanding as to how much we need to bend to individual preferences. The more we teach kids that they should say, "Screw you, I will do whatever I want and I am more important than you are" at least in terms of how they see themselves and how they live, the more we are creating people who want to tell others how to think because they have to be catered to, but if they are confused in their thinking they are going to feel very frustrated. How can you demand that I refer to you as male or female when you don't know for sure yourself what you prefer, right? So it's frustrating to them. It's not just about gender, though, it's about anything that people usually experiment with when younger. Also, because of the stressors I mentioned above, they are so fragile they can become self-hating when traumatized by what the world is dishing out . I grew up with male siblings and HATED that they could pee outside, standing up, and I hated the way girls and women were objectified by them and my male classmates but I never once thought I was a boy or that I preferred to be a boy. I know truly dysphoric people don't just feel that, I am talking abut these young girls who wind up transitioning and then regretting it: they usually felt trapped by some unsavory (to them) askpect of the female gender roles and all that it represents and the way that it enslaves you to certain things. I didn't feel I had a choice, I guess, but I also never really wished for it. I think I wished I could pee standing up and outside but I never thought, "I want to be male instead." We are catered to in this society: in my day I had to listen to the radio and hope my favorite artist or song got played. Yes, people could go out and buy their favorite songs (on vinyl, tape, CD depending on the year) but some of us couldn't afford that. So imagine my happiness when Pandora and Spotify and their predecessors and later the MP3 players came around and could be a way to cater exactly to my tastes. YT caters to me. Everything does in life now, even pervs who watch porn (don't @me for for hating porn, I do think it's objectifying of women) can be catered to whereas in my day they had to like whatever the Pussycat Theater was showing or (later) whatever Blockbuster had on tape. So these folks who are used to getting what they want but then feel stumped when asked, "What DO you want?" can make some terrible mistakes. What if Apple had come up to you and asked which artist was your favorite because they were going to give you their music free for life? Who would you choose? Would you even KNOW who to choose? What if you chose at 16 and now you can't stand that artist? I don't know if my ramblings make sense and I am certainly not trying to denigrate trans people, I just know that the detransitioning people were never really trans and are now stuck with the ramifications of this huge mistake and I am trying to figure out how/why it is happening. Because we live our life out on social media what we present as is very important, it's vital, so I think having an identity is vital and people are suffering for it. In the olden days that even predated me people were always trying to go "find themselves" and sometimes they were in their 20s and 30s or older so how can a person make a decision like this at 16? It's too much! I hope this makes sense.
You can pee outside, you have to plant your legs far apart and squat slightly. Can you aim it? Maybe not as well but a little, in ancient China women used urinals and pulled their vulva back to aim slightly higher.
i blame gender studies degrees for this rambling nonsense. learning to become a plumber or computer programmer has more value...
These archetypes (man/woman) need to be embodied and acted out. If a person looks like a masculine man with a beard but do not try and become a man they will not feel right. Man and woman are aspirational.
16:18 im so confused right now. Im trying to hold all the pieces together, can't quite do it.
10:37 to be fair, I think most people woulda thought that made sense. I would have thought it made sense, even knowing what I know now. You think your a guy your whole life, definitions of things are highly ambiguous, its no wonder you decided transitioning was a good idea. If I was your friend I don't think I would have objected. And im pretty against the politically correct stuff still.
@15:20 10000% !!!
Nobody is "actually trans".
I like them
12:40 I also don't know what if feela like to be a man or a woman but I do know my sex is wrong. I'm suppose to be female. Maybe that's what that means but I don't care for how its said because man and woman also has a social connotation that's attached and cross dressing can be considered trans if you use the term man or woman.
If you want to wear a dress, do it at home. If you enjoy doing things that are physical, go for it with your vagina intact. Nobody knows what being a man or woman is like. We only know what we ourselves are like. However, the world today allows for the max in terms of what biological males and females can do and how they express themselves.
“I’m supposed to be female”
I dont understand what this means. I can grasp a person feeling like they’re “supposed” to be a man or a woman. There’s some element of expectation there - personal, social. Biological sex is tied to reproductive roll - females produce large gametes, males produce small. Who’s expectation is at play here, beyond nature (or God, if you prefer)?
@@HO-zi5qe I don't get what you mean. My brain sends signals of negative responses when I see male specific characteristics. Penis and testies, the structure of my face, how wide my hips are to my shoulders. When I see those things my brain focuses in and wont let me think about anything else and I'm getting signals of distress that say my body is not right. These things are not suppose to be like they are. Its so distracting I'm unable to even live my life and I'm slowly wasting away in a slow death. I already decided I won't commit suicide though Tbh its much better than being in constant mental distress as this feels like torture. I've tried a great many perscription drugs and nothing H elos to alleviate the feeling. 4 months into transition and I'm starting to see bodily changes where I don't look so masculine and my brain seems to be responding by not flipping out so bad. To be a woman 1 is the biological sex aspect 2 would be a brain that would orientate the female sex and 3 would be the social aspect. Since the social aspect is a construct we built on too of the other 2 ideas that make up woman I dont get what feels like a woman means. That is also how the radical ideologues justify self id. They choose to only accept the social aspect as being a woman and ignore the other 2. People like me who are trans med believe the social aspect only helps us blend in and the important part is 2 since the brain is really where everything happens. Gender critical feminist only accept 1 to justify what a woman is. It takes all three so I feel like a woman makes no since because I don't know what it feels like to be a biological female. I hope that explained my thought process and if you have questions id be glad to answer them. Also this study was published in Oxford showing the connections of trans people brains compared against the opposite sex and how our brains resemble the gender we identify as. academic.oup.com/cercor/article/25/10/3527/387406
@@applesandpears9756 on the clothing thing I only wear clothes I like anyway plus I dont look good in a dress so that's a no go for me anyway. I also don't disagree you can express yourself pretty radically and most people don't care. Your point would be contested if I was a radical ideologue about binaries but I don't actually care for their ideas. If I could just be a effeminate gay man I would but my brain won't accept my sex as apart of the deal. Granted had I been born female if be a tomboyish chick anyway so being overly feminine is not my thing. I would disagree about know what it feels loke to be a man or woman. I believe neurotypical people understand it so intrinsically they don't actually realize they understand it because there has not been a reason for then to articulate what being a man or a woman feels like. I believe some sexual abuse victims do end up having to articulate the ideas of man and woman so that they can process their trauma but that's one of the extreme cases where it has to be articulated. Another would be us trans people. I hope I explain that well. I'm still trying to figure out how to explain this simply becauae it is not an easy thing to put into words and there are still things I need to explore so my ideas on this might change.
@@mattiOTX You're bored. Way too much time being spent of things that matter very little. Do something useful with your time.
Thankfully her voice didn’t deepen at least not noticeable male that she will de transition back without too much more trauma.
The typical "i want to look like a kid boy" case.. its whole tiktok. These are people that are not trans, these are people with other difficult and different issues falling into the rabbithole(trans comunity), because they feel finally accepted in there. But they dont reflect enough, cause these doesnt cure there depression and Problems.. pretty ofton it is the oposite.
I really hope we get this socially solved some day. But NGOs and their activists, push the Agenda..
Stellaris is a crazy time sink. And now that you've brought it up I'm gonna have to play it again 😭🤣.
Everyones decision to transition
Dogs are fascist! Have you ever seen a police cat? Great interview guys thanks for sharing 😀