I talk about TF2's balance once again and how some classes are weaker or stronger than others and why it's a good thing. I don't know what else to put here.
@@LeopardCatTherianThis. Pyro would maybe become a full-time Generalist if his buggy flamethrowers' ramp up was fixed and Detonator got its downsides removed.
I have realized something, a lot of my individual opinions on the state of TF2 are honestly so far from the majority that honestly, I exist as a statistical anomaly. I am not a competitive player despite my tryhard tendencies, I am not a casual player despite my casual methods, I do not really care about the balance of the game despite agreeing with the camp that asks for random crits to be removed, I do not agree with how all of the classes are grouped up in the hierarchy as I believe that TF2's skill ceiling makes every single class in the game hypothetically balanced if everyone plays at their peak. Overall, I just have such weird opinions and observations to the point where I'm convinced I'm not really a TF2 player. Despite maining Medic with a weird playstyle of abusing Ubers for my own purposes and utilizing teammates if they come to me, and sneaking around and picking off targets like a more powerful version of Spy. Usually, it does not work out in my favor, and I usually resort to playing precisely like every other Medic, hiding behind their patients and letting them take the fights instead of me, but when I kill enemies, I slaughter them one by one without many of them taking notice. Despite this weirdly aggressive playstyle that basically forces other players to have to take care of me while I overextend and drag them along to the flanks or the frontlines, I do not really feel like a TF2 player, more often than not I feel like an intruder with opinions not a lot of other people like to hear.
Cant think about a way to fix spy? How about fixing the 900 bugs associated with his disguises, removing spawnhacks, and ensuring hitting disguised spys doesnt play a hitsound? Aka reverting the many ways spy got inadvertently nerfed over the years affecting everyone but the kunai deadringer spam spys. A lot of the reason players feel spy is bad is because 1/4th of his kit has been nerfed into oblivion by things like bugs and qol features which weren't implemented with him in mind. Fix these and spy is actually a rather ok to straight up good class who gets hardcountered by pyro.
Now if only they nerf the better spy class, sniper. Lowering his ammo count to 13, making his reload .5 seconds instead of .2 so that way each shot has more weight to it and leaves him open, possibly adding Classic tracers to all rifles except machina, and maybe implementing a voice speak calling out sniper.
@@rockowlgamer631or you could just -Make it so you need at least 50% charge for headshots to critical hit, if you do it too soon it only minicrits Boom, fixed sniper (i main the guy)
@@rockowlgamer631 all this does is make him more annoying to play he still onetaps you from across the map his reload isnt .2 seconds the fuck? thats the headshot timer
ive got an interesting way to think about the classes. Imagine a 3 role "pie" and then place all the classes accordingly based on their numbers. Scout becomes damage support, soldier damage, pyro damage defense, demo defense damage, heavy defense, engi defense support, medic support defense, sniper support and spy support damage.
More like those circle chart things that overlap (completely forgot the name, excuse me) that overlap, so engie for example would be in a defense support hybrid circle, and demo in the defense power circle, and something like heavy full defense.
@@Grimmmmy-boyYes the triple venn diagram. The game itself seems to distinguish the classes in this way and their playstyles match and make sense with it.
right now he sounds like just a nerd it just sounds like what a nerd would sound like in my head well like a typical nerd from a tv show but overall good video
Lets be honest. Any class can shut down a whole pub game if the player is good at it some people may say that sniper is op but it really depends on the player. And a really good spy can also shut down a whole game.
Well, yeah, the main problem is that sniper rewards skill too much, a good sniper can one shot quick scope 7/9 classes, and the two that aren't insta killed can simply be quick scoped again, it's the reason bots are snipers, the class rewards skill too much, combined with a pretty non existant skill cap makes him extremely powerful.
@@orionblackstorm7926 well yeah sniper is a strong class but a really good spy can stop any class from getting anything done. A good demo can stop an entire push with good positioning and good sticky placement. Sure sniper is the strongest but people that manage to get to the level where they can shut down a whole server deserve to be rewarded for thier skill.
WhEn yOu tAkE aWaY hIs HeAdShOtS tHe sNiPeR hAs bArElY aNy dAmAgE >sniper can one shot 5/9 classes with a body shot if he waits literally 3 seconds for his rifle to charge
I see Demo and Scout as both being more powerful than Soldier in different ways. Soldier is overall more reliable than either, because he's like the middle ground between the Strengths of Demo and Scout, while mitigating their weaknesses, however not excelling higher than their strengths.
I'm making my own balance discussion video, so this video was a nice surprise to see in my recommended, and thoroughly talks about what things need to be avoided when talking about class balance. Though, I think there is something to be said here about the way you talk about any of the specialist classes getting any kinda buffs to be more generalist. You talk about how annoying it could potentially be, but you fail to bring up that classes could potentially be REWORKED, meaning that with the buffs, comes trade-off that makes their more annoying parts less annoying. A compensation for a Pyro buff, you could see changes to airblast. Maybe airblast has a "clip" where similar to the Thermal Thruster, it has 4 charges and needs to recharge if you end up running out. Airblast could also not remove your ability to strafe, so you could potentially surf away from a Pyro trying to airblast lock you. Maybe the spread of Flame Throwers are shrunk down to make them more aim dependent similar to a Lightning Gun but its damage is increased? As for Spy, when thinking about buffs, one of my favorite ideas is making the Sapper more applicable. Allowing the base Sapper to be throwable, and then be remotely activated. This would disable enemy buildings (not damaging them), but also deal fast ticking damage similar to a bleed or Afterburn to those in the radius, like an electric shock. It is called the "Electro Sapper" afterall. And, this thrown Sapper can be destroyed at anyone with 100 damage, just like a Mini-Sentry. What I'm saying is, there is a lot more nuance to the discussion than just "buffing bad class is bad because they're annoying". When rebalancing a class who undeniably isn't as good as classes like Scout, Demoman, Soldier, and Medic, it's crucial that you tone down the annoying parts so the buffs don't cause them to get out of hand.
I was thinking that they threw a lot of stuff at the wall for its weapons and machanics. And hot take, I think they need to nerf soldier to not have so much knockback and damage. And Medic should not be as strong by having classes have more healing options, and or, have maps have more health packs.
Look, I think you have a good video here, but I hate to say it the intro was long. In the future/going forward, if you can kindly consider shortening the intro just to a minute that would be great.
I honestly think valve has private servers where they experiment with bots set to human peraminaters to test glitches and strategies and differing scenarios to see where it works best and have othere bits to watch and observe how a an actuall game goes. With this idea in mind I wonder If they are actually working on tf2 they just can't say they are because they know what hackers will do if there was something to get HL beta leak for example, the Fact that anyone even knew it existed it resulted in chaos so perhaps maybe just maybe the number we can not count to exists....
The only problem with Soldier is how busted his unlocks are: There are Banners that grant passive healing which accelerates over time or additional +20 max hp to a class with the second highest max hp pool in the game. It's very hard to miss with Rocket Launcher, yet there's one that gives you free hp for hitting targets. It's the same as giving a Pyro a Flamethrower with 150 max ammo that heals him +4hp per particle, or a Scattergun that heals Scout +3hp per pellet. Why is Soldier the only one with such primary? It's so stupid
Soldier shines in his simplicity, so it's easy to give him weapons like this and balance them around his stock. In Comp, Soldier's still prefer Gunboats over Battalions, and most people agree the Black Box is perfectly balanced, but none of his launchers compare to stock, why is that? Soldier at a base level is just busted, and giving him niche upsides will radically boost certain play styles because they hardly conflict with his base play style, which is so simple to understand and be effective with. It's not any more overpowered than a stock soldier is, but because it gives such upsides that hardly conflict with Soldier, they let Soldier excel at frankly ridiculous things, with simply limiting certain options that don't come into direct conflict with his abilities. And still, Stock, Gunboats, any melee But stock and The Equalizer, is the Comp roamed Soldier META, the most effective way for a soldier to be powerful alone, and it all lays in the rocket launcher. There's ways to balance Soldier, but it'd have to come at a base level and nerf the core of the character somehow. But, Valve ain't touchin' this game with a ten foot pole, maybe an eleven foot one if we're lucky.
@@redactedoktor Finally someone understands that. Thank you. I would start nerfing splash radius. It has diameter of 292 hammer units, and has layers that go from the core to the edge - 100%(112 hp damage) 90% 80% 70% 60% 50%(56 hp damage). Visualisation here ua-cam.com/video/fAo2KLyuTCM/v-deo.htmlsi=QznGH6XAHB-1p_Hf. I would make so the edge of splash would only deal 25%(28hp damage) yet leave core with its 100% and then do the math with layers that are between them, but feel lazy rn. This would encourage Soldiers to aim and punish for abusing splash radius.
@@FakeCoconut-v7o Yeah, a damage nerf is definitely in need. The splash radius is also just really big and forgiving, you could take out a medic just by grazing them with the edge of the blast radius from 3 rockets, at max ramp up but still. What stands out to me is the verticality you get by shooting at the ground, just a total wall of damage. It only needs to touch the feet to deal any damage, why does it need to be so high? I think it's just because it was intuitive to program honestly, but having it gradually flatten instead of curve, just slightly less like a perfect half sphere dome and more like a bulbous fried egg with a slope, it would mean that further out from the blast you could feasibly jump over some of the damage and be able to use your movement to punish a Soldier's poor aim, which would be awesome honestly. That is perhaps one of the most minor changes you could give the Rocket Launcher though, and the damage layers thing is definitely more effective of a nerf, but it goes to show how maybe it really is in need of a quite a few minor but important nerfs. Compared to a lot of other games, TF2's balance issues are like small fries with the meta defining completely unfun and broken strategies other developers have accidentally dropped every couple months for years, but with the extra polish and being more than just by far not the worst, it'd be an even more enjoyable experience which is why balancing matters, especially the longer a game goes on because the issues become more noticeable with time.
@@redactedoktor Yeah, jumping over this radius should definitely be a thing and will set Soldier in his proper place - as a class for new players to learn basic TF2 mechanics and so then they would move on to other classes. And that was actually his design, Valve intended for Soldier to be good but outclassed by everyone at their specialities. But who needs to play Demo and learn how to place stickies to maximize damage output when you can do it faster and pretty close to Demo's damage as Soldier just by shooting at ground? That's why people prefer sticking to Soldier, because he can do half-everything other classes can, but with zero effort, while other classes need to apply themselves for doing even half of what they can, Scout is the perfect example. I would really want to see your changes for Soldier in the game, but I'm afraid this community is incredibly biased. Even slightest nerf would cause massive outrage making Valve revert all changes just because "Scout counters Soldier in comp" while he truly doesn't and it just shows Scout's skill not Soldier weakness.
![[TF2] I Don't Like The Machina](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VL5AAp-X6nQ/mqdefault.jpg)
14:35 bottom left corner: average tf2 convo
i don't think pyro is a specialist, he is both a power and support class atst,i think that would put him on generalist pool
Pyro can easily be in pick with the right weapons too
Pyro is a Generalist, yes. But the worst one - everything he does other classes do better without switching weapons
@@FakeCoconut-v7o but then he can do other things that those classes can’t, best way to describe pyro:
Jack of all trades, master of none
He is the General Specialist! As opposed to Medic, the Special Generalist.
@@LeopardCatTherianThis. Pyro would maybe become a full-time Generalist if his buggy flamethrowers' ramp up was fixed and Detonator got its downsides removed.
I have realized something, a lot of my individual opinions on the state of TF2 are honestly so far from the majority that honestly, I exist as a statistical anomaly. I am not a competitive player despite my tryhard tendencies, I am not a casual player despite my casual methods, I do not really care about the balance of the game despite agreeing with the camp that asks for random crits to be removed, I do not agree with how all of the classes are grouped up in the hierarchy as I believe that TF2's skill ceiling makes every single class in the game hypothetically balanced if everyone plays at their peak. Overall, I just have such weird opinions and observations to the point where I'm convinced I'm not really a TF2 player.
Despite maining Medic with a weird playstyle of abusing Ubers for my own purposes and utilizing teammates if they come to me, and sneaking around and picking off targets like a more powerful version of Spy. Usually, it does not work out in my favor, and I usually resort to playing precisely like every other Medic, hiding behind their patients and letting them take the fights instead of me, but when I kill enemies, I slaughter them one by one without many of them taking notice. Despite this weirdly aggressive playstyle that basically forces other players to have to take care of me while I overextend and drag them along to the flanks or the frontlines, I do not really feel like a TF2 player, more often than not I feel like an intruder with opinions not a lot of other people like to hear.
since when did playing a game require you to have homogeneous thoughts? this is why the community is full of morons zawg...
“Not some ginger from Texas”
Undeniably a cheeky reference and hilarious comment.
XDDDD
Alt universe where whatifalthist played tf2 instead of being racist
Wait for the 10k sub mark.
I'm joking I'm joking, but
Cant think about a way to fix spy?
How about fixing the 900 bugs associated with his disguises, removing spawnhacks, and ensuring hitting disguised spys doesnt play a hitsound?
Aka reverting the many ways spy got inadvertently nerfed over the years affecting everyone but the kunai deadringer spam spys.
A lot of the reason players feel spy is bad is because 1/4th of his kit has been nerfed into oblivion by things like bugs and qol features which weren't implemented with him in mind.
Fix these and spy is actually a rather ok to straight up good class who gets hardcountered by pyro.
Now if only they nerf the better spy class, sniper.
Lowering his ammo count to 13, making his reload .5 seconds instead of .2 so that way each shot has more weight to it and leaves him open, possibly adding Classic tracers to all rifles except machina, and maybe implementing a voice speak calling out sniper.
@@rockowlgamer631or you could just
-Make it so you need at least 50% charge for headshots to critical hit, if you do it too soon it only minicrits
Boom, fixed sniper (i main the guy)
@@rockowlgamer631 all this does is make him more annoying to play he still onetaps you from across the map
his reload isnt .2 seconds the fuck? thats the headshot timer
remmeber when cosmetics and weapons other than stock where gone for like 2 days? spy instantly became 5 times more fun
ive got an interesting way to think about the classes. Imagine a 3 role "pie" and then place all the classes accordingly based on their numbers. Scout becomes damage support, soldier damage, pyro damage defense, demo defense damage, heavy defense, engi defense support, medic support defense, sniper support and spy support damage.
More like those circle chart things that overlap (completely forgot the name, excuse me) that overlap, so engie for example would be in a defense support hybrid circle, and demo in the defense power circle, and something like heavy full defense.
@@Grimmmmy-boyYes the triple venn diagram. The game itself seems to distinguish the classes in this way and their playstyles match and make sense with it.
@@ryorai5804 yeah, that’s it
1:32 that power point pyro lmao
Well put together video, hope your voice gets better!
True.
right now he sounds like just a nerd it just sounds like what a nerd would sound like in my head well like a typical nerd from a tv show but overall good video
6:55 - demoman gets yeeted :D
My average ping whenever an enemy comes into view: 1:31
Lets be honest. Any class can shut down a whole pub game if the player is good at it some people may say that sniper is op but it really depends on the player. And a really good spy can also shut down a whole game.
Well, yeah, the main problem is that sniper rewards skill too much, a good sniper can one shot quick scope 7/9 classes, and the two that aren't insta killed can simply be quick scoped again, it's the reason bots are snipers, the class rewards skill too much, combined with a pretty non existant skill cap makes him extremely powerful.
@@orionblackstorm7926 well yeah sniper is a strong class but a really good spy can stop any class from getting anything done. A good demo can stop an entire push with good positioning and good sticky placement. Sure sniper is the strongest but people that manage to get to the level where they can shut down a whole server deserve to be rewarded for thier skill.
By any class you mean soldier, sniper, demo and scout? Without a medic or bad enemy team the rest cant do that
WhEn yOu tAkE aWaY hIs HeAdShOtS tHe sNiPeR hAs bArElY aNy dAmAgE
>sniper can one shot 5/9 classes with a body shot if he waits literally 3 seconds for his rifle to charge
"sniper needs headshots to function"
-Introducing: The Classic
I see Demo and Scout as both being more powerful than Soldier in different ways. Soldier is overall more reliable than either, because he's like the middle ground between the Strengths of Demo and Scout, while mitigating their weaknesses, however not excelling higher than their strengths.
that pyro was lagging bad
The Dragon's Fury's is very sexy and cool
I'm making my own balance discussion video, so this video was a nice surprise to see in my recommended, and thoroughly talks about what things need to be avoided when talking about class balance.
Though, I think there is something to be said here about the way you talk about any of the specialist classes getting any kinda buffs to be more generalist. You talk about how annoying it could potentially be, but you fail to bring up that classes could potentially be REWORKED, meaning that with the buffs, comes trade-off that makes their more annoying parts less annoying.
A compensation for a Pyro buff, you could see changes to airblast. Maybe airblast has a "clip" where similar to the Thermal Thruster, it has 4 charges and needs to recharge if you end up running out. Airblast could also not remove your ability to strafe, so you could potentially surf away from a Pyro trying to airblast lock you.
Maybe the spread of Flame Throwers are shrunk down to make them more aim dependent similar to a Lightning Gun but its damage is increased?
As for Spy, when thinking about buffs, one of my favorite ideas is making the Sapper more applicable. Allowing the base Sapper to be throwable, and then be remotely activated. This would disable enemy buildings (not damaging them), but also deal fast ticking damage similar to a bleed or Afterburn to those in the radius, like an electric shock. It is called the "Electro Sapper" afterall.
And, this thrown Sapper can be destroyed at anyone with 100 damage, just like a Mini-Sentry.
What I'm saying is, there is a lot more nuance to the discussion than just "buffing bad class is bad because they're annoying". When rebalancing a class who undeniably isn't as good as classes like Scout, Demoman, Soldier, and Medic, it's crucial that you tone down the annoying parts so the buffs don't cause them to get out of hand.
i think depending on what loadout you use for engie you could probably bump him up a level
Really good video👍
I was thinking that they threw a lot of stuff at the wall for its weapons and machanics. And hot take, I think they need to nerf soldier to not have so much knockback and damage. And Medic should not be as strong by having classes have more healing options, and or, have maps have more health packs.
Look, I think you have a good video here, but I hate to say it the intro was long. In the future/going forward, if you can kindly consider shortening the intro just to a minute that would be great.
I honestly think valve has private servers where they experiment with bots set to human peraminaters to test glitches and strategies and differing scenarios to see where it works best and have othere bits to watch and observe how a an actuall game goes.
With this idea in mind I wonder If they are actually working on tf2 they just can't say they are because they know what hackers will do if there was something to get HL beta leak for example, the Fact that anyone even knew it existed it resulted in chaos so perhaps maybe just maybe the number we can not count to exists....
I mean no disrespect but that makes no sense
I mean a decent bit of disrespect. That makes no sense.
The only problem with Soldier is how busted his unlocks are: There are Banners that grant passive healing which accelerates over time or additional +20 max hp to a class with the second highest max hp pool in the game. It's very hard to miss with Rocket Launcher, yet there's one that gives you free hp for hitting targets. It's the same as giving a Pyro a Flamethrower with 150 max ammo that heals him +4hp per particle, or a Scattergun that heals Scout +3hp per pellet.
Why is Soldier the only one with such primary? It's so stupid
Soldier shines in his simplicity, so it's easy to give him weapons like this and balance them around his stock. In Comp, Soldier's still prefer Gunboats over Battalions, and most people agree the Black Box is perfectly balanced, but none of his launchers compare to stock, why is that? Soldier at a base level is just busted, and giving him niche upsides will radically boost certain play styles because they hardly conflict with his base play style, which is so simple to understand and be effective with.
It's not any more overpowered than a stock soldier is, but because it gives such upsides that hardly conflict with Soldier, they let Soldier excel at frankly ridiculous things, with simply limiting certain options that don't come into direct conflict with his abilities. And still, Stock, Gunboats, any melee But stock and The Equalizer, is the Comp roamed Soldier META, the most effective way for a soldier to be powerful alone, and it all lays in the rocket launcher.
There's ways to balance Soldier, but it'd have to come at a base level and nerf the core of the character somehow. But, Valve ain't touchin' this game with a ten foot pole, maybe an eleven foot one if we're lucky.
@@redactedoktor Finally someone understands that. Thank you.
I would start nerfing splash radius. It has diameter of 292 hammer units, and has layers that go from the core to the edge - 100%(112 hp damage) 90% 80% 70% 60% 50%(56 hp damage). Visualisation here ua-cam.com/video/fAo2KLyuTCM/v-deo.htmlsi=QznGH6XAHB-1p_Hf.
I would make so the edge of splash would only deal 25%(28hp damage) yet leave core with its 100% and then do the math with layers that are between them, but feel lazy rn.
This would encourage Soldiers to aim and punish for abusing splash radius.
@@FakeCoconut-v7o Yeah, a damage nerf is definitely in need. The splash radius is also just really big and forgiving, you could take out a medic just by grazing them with the edge of the blast radius from 3 rockets, at max ramp up but still.
What stands out to me is the verticality you get by shooting at the ground, just a total wall of damage. It only needs to touch the feet to deal any damage, why does it need to be so high? I think it's just because it was intuitive to program honestly, but having it gradually flatten instead of curve, just slightly less like a perfect half sphere dome and more like a bulbous fried egg with a slope, it would mean that further out from the blast you could feasibly jump over some of the damage and be able to use your movement to punish a Soldier's poor aim, which would be awesome honestly. That is perhaps one of the most minor changes you could give the Rocket Launcher though, and the damage layers thing is definitely more effective of a nerf, but it goes to show how maybe it really is in need of a quite a few minor but important nerfs.
Compared to a lot of other games, TF2's balance issues are like small fries with the meta defining completely unfun and broken strategies other developers have accidentally dropped every couple months for years, but with the extra polish and being more than just by far not the worst, it'd be an even more enjoyable experience which is why balancing matters, especially the longer a game goes on because the issues become more noticeable with time.
@@redactedoktor Yeah, jumping over this radius should definitely be a thing and will set Soldier in his proper place - as a class for new players to learn basic TF2 mechanics and so then they would move on to other classes.
And that was actually his design, Valve intended for Soldier to be good but outclassed by everyone at their specialities. But who needs to play Demo and learn how to place stickies to maximize damage output when you can do it faster and pretty close to Demo's damage as Soldier just by shooting at ground? That's why people prefer sticking to Soldier, because he can do half-everything other classes can, but with zero effort, while other classes need to apply themselves for doing even half of what they can, Scout is the perfect example.
I would really want to see your changes for Soldier in the game, but I'm afraid this community is incredibly biased. Even slightest nerf would cause massive outrage making Valve revert all changes just because "Scout counters Soldier in comp" while he truly doesn't and it just shows Scout's skill not Soldier weakness.
yeah because soldier definitely needs to be worse in comp lol
blow your nose lil bro.