[TF2] Weapons and How to Do Counterplay
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- Опубліковано 20 кві 2023
- Tf2 has a lot of weapons, and a the threat of seagulls is higher than ever, how do these weapons interact with the concept of counterplay? #tf2
Music provided by:
Kevin Macleod: incompetech.com/
Blank and Kytt: blankkytt.bandcamp.com/
![[TF2] Weapons Vs TF2 Classic Weapons](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KlP6MSohEyo/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Weapons Vs TF2 Classic Weapons](/img/tr.png)
![[TF2] Kritz Always Sucked](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/H0wdj8A-bII/mqdefault.jpg)
i cant believe they finally made a tf2 youtuber that is funny
elmaxo
@@AAAJZA debatable
@@dudewithnolifepoop mass debatable
@@AAAJZA elmidxo
LazyPurple
tf2 has gotten a lot of weapons that are just like "wow wouldn't it be cool if they had this?" followed by intense controversy because it is cool but sucks to play against
thermal thruster is cool but it doesnt suck to play against
Not a lot but a few loud examples
20:52 who's going to tell him that because of source spaghetti, the loose canon's projectiles are actually slower
Probably the 19 other comments that mentioned it
@@kalukagamingfellaguyIts funny you complain about the loose cannon and not STICKY SPAM and the weapon that literally makes hitting pipes much easier with no downsides, I think you need to get good, I love the loose cannon but in no way is it overpowered or hard to deal with, if you can dodge other pipes you can dodge the loose cannon even moreso.
@@kalukagamingfellaguyYOU USE THE IRON BOMBER LOL, thats such a funny thing to cope about when you use the crutch weapon thats broken.
@@NikotheleepicThe Iron Bomber was fixed over a year ago. This video was 11 months ago
I think the definitive argument of "balanced by execution" in TF2 is The Sniper. And I think it's wrong.
Yeah. Weapons should be balanced at their skill ceiling IMO. Difficulty should be counteracted by satisfaction, not performance.
@@dojelnotmyrealname4018 weapons shouldn't be balanced at there skill ceilings, they should be balanced, period, make it fun for both players at every skill level, with some items being more favored towards either side of the bell curve
@@dojelnotmyrealname4018 both of these sentences contradicts each other
@@theman4life No they don't.
@@dojelnotmyrealname4018 I wrote a long comment but for some reason it's gone, didn't even use a bad word but all my efforts for my argument has vanished and I completely lost the morale to write another one. Please just elaborate.
This mans writing and delivery tickles my ADHD brain with glee and I enjoy it.
Yes
Yes
I think they are a bit unhinged but I love it
Nah
@@lememeass3054 how many of them are in this video? it's just this guy. he is talking and playing. not multiple people.
I'd like if the Sniper backpacks operated closer to the Soldier banners. Like if you had to withstand a certain amount of damage to activate some buffs, or do a certain amount of headshot damage for certain effects, yknow stuff like that. The buffs can be stronger than they currently are, but on a timer, just like the banners. That would be more fun, and would force the sniper player to be more active or hang around his team more if the effects are AOE
*Waving around half empty bottle*
Ehat does it even MATTER?! It’s not like we’re gettin any UPDATES to fix anything at all! Why should we even CARE ANYMORE?! (Sobbing tears of depressive alcoholism)
Another idea I just had was make them literal camping items. You get locked down into a position, but you gain certain resistances or immunities, none of which are passive unless you're locked down. Now you can no longer move to assist your own aiming, dodge rockets or flares, or dodge a Spy's revolver shots. You are *locked down.* Quite literally camping. You have to select the best possible spots, or you're more vulnerable than a turtling Engineer.
@@mdbgamer556 ah sort of like a ramped up Brass Beast but on a more fragile character with less longevity. I think that would be an interesting idea to mess around with
You know what would be even better? If you had to manually select the backpack like any other weapon (minus the boots). You become resistant to backstabs or being set on fire, but only while you are holding them up, meaning you cant use your melee or sniper rifle in the mean time. You drastically increase your defensive capabilities on a class that lacks movility or defensive options but remove completely your offense, which is what the class normally excels at. You temporarily go from a glass canon to a stone wall.
@@M4x_P0w3r This kinda defeats the point of the Razorback, but give it and that Darwins Danger Shield some extra utility, and this could be an interesting idea.
Aside from the knockback, the Loch n Load is pretty much the equivalent. Plus the 20% projectile compensate for how the Loose Cannon flies in the air. You would be surprised that actually not that fact and bit slower than Stock, barely reaching the same distance while flopping to the ground.
You deserve so much more subscribers. The writing of your videos is absolutely INCREDIBLE.
Thanks! I'm sure I'll grow as long as I make stuff that's good, I mostly do this cause it's fun.
If this ends up becoming an SF6 channel, I'm all for it.
I've mostly made my peace with FG, I can't really play them because I have an obsessive personality and that doesn't play well with competitve grinding.
But I do plan on making an SF6 video cause I don't trust kotaku or whoever to do even 1% of a good job.
@@kalukagamingfellaguy what are you talking about
@@sim-pli-s-te4015 Street Fighter 6
yes 🙌
Would love to see some anti zangief propaganda
Sniper backpacks should have activated effects like the soldier back packs imo. Adds potential for sniper to become more of a 'front line' class, allowing for a different play style to sniper
Yes, the problem with sniper is that he's too far from frontline, he should be near and more weak
huntsman
What if the cozy camper made to function like a ammo-only dispenser for your team?
@@voodoodummiesnipers are alone most of the time so that's useless but that might encourage snipers to play near their teammates but I think that's gonna fail hard.
@@Thomas_Angelo it's a minimum thing, and it could encourage huntsmen snipers to pick it up.
tbh loose cannon is in my opinion good design weapon, it has a counter play which is getting closer to the demoman, to deal some meaningful damage he needs to charge the cannonball, making his rate of fire horrible, giving him 1 shot to save him self sometimes two, its much more interactive and counterable (if that's even a word) then normal pipes, it a high risk high reward weapon
> the demonman
well I know he's strong, but damn, you don't gotta insult him like that! D:
@@dexterity494 I never knew about that typo till now lmao
@@destinyj.5432 haha no worries. I saw an opportunity, and I took it :P
Oh, a fellow FGC TF2 enjoyer, love to see a clean SF combo in a well made TF2 video! Great job brotha😊
After coming back to the TF2 community as an adult I’ve realized a bunch of my interests are shared by others who have also enjoyed TF2 throughout their lives lol. It’s kinda cool to come back to your favorite game ever and find UA-camrs who have the same music taste as you or also enjoy the FGC and LoL. If only I could find a drummer and keyboard player the same way
one of my favourite topics when counterplay discussion comes up is the stock launcher vs the iron bomber.
your style and editing is really good, maybe don't limit yourself to just tf2 bc you're entertaining regardless of the topic
Thanks! I don't plan on it, TF2 is just a good game for expressing lots of topics.
@@kalukagamingfellaguy when next tf2 video????
The Loose Cannon's bonus 20% projectile speed is actually there to compensate for the simulated air drag of the cannon balls. It ultimately comes out to the same speed as stock while also being shorter range than stock due to the faster fuse time.
I feel like even the gunboats provide something interesting because it improves a skill that soldier already has, which is rocket jumping. Sure, there’s no skill in using the gunboats by itself, but it provides more layers to what the soldier can do, opened up by being able to rocket jump more. It’s also interesting because soldier gets a lot of use from his secondaries, so not having a secondary weapon provides counterplay that enemies can take advantage of.
The cost of shields is: no smg. When having a backpack equipped, you are less venerable to whatever that backpack is specially for, but you lose the versatility of having a quick projectile.
the smg is hitscan
Excellent video as always! The editing, humor, and script are top-notch! Even though I love your tf2 stuff, I'm all for you branching out and I can't wait to see what topics you discuss next. After all, in my opinion, the best videos come from youtubers talking about what they want to, not what they think their audience wants to see. With this video quality, you'll hit 10k in no time👍
I like where your head is at with this argument, but I disagree with using the Loose Cannon as an example. While yes, if he times and lands his shot properly, you will be knocked back and double-donked, the counterplay interaction that comes into play when you fight a Loose Cannon Demo is BEFORE he fires his shot, and it's actually an increased vulnerability from what the stock grenade launcher has.
That counterplay interaction is *_not engaging the demo at mid range._* The Loose Cannon's range is shorter than Stock, making him vulnerable to enemies that are farther away. Situations where you might be able to corner peak while firing off long-range pipes at a 45° angle are no longer an option, as the projectile will explode well before it hits the target on the other side of its arc path.
On the other side of things, at extremely close range, the Demo has to take more time to charge up his shot (while tracking you) if he wants to land a lethal blow. Scouts are already a difficult matchup for Demo, but equipping the Loose Cannon takes away his ability to hit a point blank flick pipe for 100 damage. On top of that, the Demo having to track while charging up a point blank cannonball makes erratic movement very effective. It essentially heightens the level of skill needed to fight someone who is in his face. It significantly increases the threat level of any class you're fighting in close quarters, especially Scouts.
Another thing I should add is that the stock grenade launcher does CC enemies if you aim at their feet, popping them into the air and making a follow-up pipe easier to land. Sure, that's a skill-based mechanic, but so is landing double donks.
Basically, the Loose Cannon _is_ something you interact with and it _does_ have counterplay. Sure, it lowers counterplay at mid range by making the projectile faster and giving it huge burst potential, but it compensates for that by increasing counterplay at long and very short range, where the weapon's effectiveness is either weakened or completely nullified.
Fun fact: the loose cannon is the only grenade launcher with damage falloff
@@PoneDtheGuy So that explains why you can't kill snipers with a single double donk at max range.
i would disagree. if you play heavy against a loose cannon its VERY HARD to do anything with your gun. youre just being spammed away with easy double donks as heavy needs to rev up to shoot /:
@@usedhalfcart easy fix, dont play heavy
@@usedhalfcart One class having an unfavorable interaction doesn't mean there's no counterplay...
how do you not have more subscribers your videos are very good and entertaining to watch
I don't have pepper spray... But I have a Kunai!!!
:D
Except wrong
Loose cannon is if not doen grade , the fastest travel speed end up slower due to physical calculations and the hitbox is smaller in fact while proactively large when contact with map geometry , also has shorter effective range and lower dps slower reload speed too .
If those weren't enough you can stay far since it has damage fall off unlike other grenade , btw argumented hp point make it awkward (solider 200 / overheal in general) , wost of all time crouch so you surf away from donk could ever happening!!!
The thing that sucks about the razorback is that it removes the one downside of sloppily playing sniper, which is a competent spy.
and if you have a second sniper in the nest with you, and you both have the razorback, all you have to do is hear the spy shooting at one of you, and turn around to kukuri or SMG them to death.
If they're not using the ambassador or enforcer, they're likely not even going to kill you, because you'll shred them.
Oh, I very strongly believe that anti headshot sandwitch should not only be in game, but be all class
Even sniper?!
@@davisdf3064 Sniper is not a class, sniper is a mistake.
But yes. Even sniper. I would love to see 2fort sandwich meta
You’re killing it with the thumbnails tbh I’ve never seen anything like them, great video btw!
Ty!
Those are some really great points! Also, thank you for including gameplay of Factorio in that small window!
5:35 holy crap that demoman got headshot through somebody
The razorback can actually be actively used and create an interesting counter play. I have seen snipers fight spys at close range with their melee out forcing the spy to back up to have an easier time shooting them or pull out their knife to get a few butter knifes in. However with the right timing the sniper turns around tricking the spy into back stabbing them leaving them vulnerable. It's rare to see but when you do it's hella flashy and impressive to watch.
I mean, I've actually seen that being used, but any competent spy would still pick their gun over their knife against a razorback sniper because the gun deals more damage, can deal guaranteed crits (Amby, Diamondback) or random crits and has more range.
The Sniper can just M2 + M1 the Spy tho
Fun fact the loose cannon’s projectile is actually 15% slower due to how the source engine does physics, so the stats are actually wrong
I have some dissagreement with the razorback being COMPLETELY useless. If the sniper is within range of a sentry, or turns around between gunshots and random crits you, you are boned, and extending spies window of vulnerability from a few seconds go get in, stab, and get out to get in, shoot 2-4 times, get out, makes the spy much easier to notice and kill.
Great video, keep up the good work
I couldn't pay attention to a single thing you said, I just kept focusing on Cami's thighs
Gulag
@@kalukagamingfellaguy memes aside i lost my shit when you just made the gameplay in the bottom right the same sniper gameplay, good job man
@@feIIas ty lmao
yoo tf2 and street fighter thats like a weird fever dream but i like it
God i'm glad Splitgate got talked about in a video essay. It's underrated as heck so seeing it in non-specific media is always nice.
not paying attention to the mini footage and then looking at it every 5 mins is wack.
Was very surreal
Since you didn't suggest anything, and since I'm studying to balance games professionally, lemme take a crack at revamping those backpacks:
Camper - Keep it the same. As you said, it's inoffensive.
Darwin's - Increased base movement speed, and less movement penalty while scoping/drawing an arrow. Helpful for Sniper duels.
Razorback - General damage resistance, except against crits. Something to help out aggressive Huntsman snipers.
One thing to note is that Razorback makes Sniper near invincible to spy when he's parked near a good teammate or a level 3 sentry.
out of all the years of watching tf2bers, im enjoying this man the most by a mile
The Nyet 3 gameplay in the corner was a huge help. Thanks man.
I'm an adamant Loose Cannon main, and hearing this breaks my heart into tiny little pieces. But in all seriousness, you're right; sometimes I'll see a Scout before he sees me, and one donk later, he's playing poker with Tom Jones up in heaven. However, I believe I can defend this beautiful weapon AND point fingers at a bigger culprit.
First of all, donks don't consistently kill light classes. The Loose Cannon is the only Demo primary that has fall-off; when you get a donk from far away, the light class will typically survive and live to hit you again (and fortunately, a full-power donk won't kill a Medic, which I think is important and necessary).
Second of all, the Loose Cannon doesn't actually have a faster projectile speed than stock; something something Source Engine bs probably, the projectiles are the same speed (and the same size -- at least, smaller than the old Iron Bomber hitbox) as stock.
Third of all, and this is basically a moot, obvious point, but the Loose Cannon rewards you for good aim and punishes you for bad aim. I would need to hit three direct hits on a Scout to kill him if I'm missing all my Donks (and splash damage), and that's ample time for me to replace him in Tom Jones heaven. And the reward isn't too great (other than the indescribable feeling that takes over my body every time I hear the Double Donk sound effect, but don't worry about that). However, I'll note that the knockback mechanic is the worst part about it, but Demo is just scared of people getting close to him, and likes his personal space (with an explosive, self-damaging primary, he suffers when opponents get close)
Fourth, given the fact that you have to prime your shots for at most a second, your firing rate is drastically lower than it would be with Stock. In practice, you're likely to put out less damage over time. Many veterans opt for stock or the Iron Bomber.
Now, let's get to my scapegoat, one that drives many people nuts (and perhaps rightfully so?): the Sniper Rifle.
Contrasted to my points:
- a headshot with the Sniper Rifle will consistently kill non-overhealed light classes, a Medic (which is pretty major), and when charged, all classes. A charged bodyshot will do the former two.
- instant fire, but this isn't a point against the Rifle at all. Of course, lack of counterplay can be added to this point; if a good Sniper looks at you, and you look back at him funny (and you happen to be 5 in every 9 men and not wielding a hitscan weapon for some reason), you're probably dead, no matter how far you are.
- the Sniper Rifle rewards you incredibly for good aim, which is splendid and deserved, and does indeed punish you for bad aim. But the fact that Snipers, being the class that they are, are able to sit in the back lines and charge up bodyshots rather than push up to mid-range as a Demo might have to, certainly counts against this weapon. And the reward -- an insta-kill on half the game's roster at any range -- is a bit too big (and easily exploitable, see Bots).
- can't really make a point against this. The Sniper Rifle is the Sniper Rifle, and there isn't really an easily comparable weapon off the top of my head. Of course, many people complain about the Sniper being able to fire too quickly at all (see, Quickscopes), but I don't think this is too big an issue.
The Sniper Rifle is too easy a scapegoat, and I bring it up because it highlights the points you made in your video even more than the Loose Cannon might (I'm sure you didn't want to make a Remove/Nerf Sniper video, which is super common these days). The fact that this video also had a lot of Sniper gameplay in it made me cry (especially where you were popping off at 22:14, destroying their team from your spawn as you spoke about counterplay -- felt like an ironic, sarcastic jab). I know that Sniper is filling his own niche in the game and all, but still. Counterplay against a good Sniper is virtually impossible, while counterplay against a Demoman is get lucky in your guesses, dodge wisely, and shoot/melee him given the fact that he likely isn't across the map.
I do believe that yes, Loose Cannon counterplay sucks, but I just wanted to say that the Sniper Rifle does it worse.
Also, this video is hilarious, and I love it. Your writing and editing style is peak TF2 content creator, and I can't wait to see more.
To be entirely fair with the Loose Cannon: You can still *miss*. A good Scout is still not gonna get hit. A soldier taking the aggressive route and jumping in from a blind spot to counter the Demo's aim is not gonna get hit. A heavy/medic combo can deal with basically anyone easily, uber or no uber. The counterplay there still exists, and the Cannon still takes skill to use.
Besides, the Loose Cannon trades consistency for damage potential (one shotting light classes and sending everyone else to kingdom come). The LC requires better aim and mastering the charge mechanic to hit the double donks in all ranges, is much weaker at close ranges due to needing to charge for longer and can't be spammed like the other grenade launchers because you need to charge. Plus, if you charge for too long, you get very damaged. It's got a lot of counterplay and weaknesses to make up for its admitedly strong upsides.
14:14 seals, sea puppies even
:)
Babe wake up new goated tf2 channel dropped
Ty!
It was interesting to hear your opinions on the loose cannon. As someone who rarely played demoman I held almost the same opinion but with even more of me not knowing why I died. After trying it out I really clicked with the wildcard potential it holds. It is really hard to be consistent with it due to having to factor another element other than just point and click and the less dmg potential if you dont hit the donks. But it can also be insanely powerful gaining you kills that you couldn't be able to get using stock. You can even semi consistently stuff ubers by knocking back the medic or recipient of the uber. But now when I die to a loose cannon I know that I can respect the hustle and the dedication to a weapon that will screw you over.
PS. I advocate for consent. No means no folks!
14:40 I want that sandvich to be real, just make it heal less to balance it.
no
Clearly you use the razorback.
@@kamakiriisabean7059 it should also work like the razorback, Heavy should not be able to be 1 shot.
@@chrisbelair5916 Clearly you are a heavy main.
this video is so good, hope the algorithm graces you soon
Honestly as someone who uses the scorch sometimes I would honestly say it isnt overpowered by definition, but rather just terribly flawed in design. Is it REALLY powerful and easy to use/spam? Yes. But so are a lot of other weapons and entire weapon groups for classes. And I do think said other weapons desperately need change too if a more balanced tf2 was desired.
I feel like the most prominent issue is just that it's not fun to deal with. Having to get a friendly pyro or medic up your ass to counter afterburn or scrambling for health kits for being near a corner the scorch pyro was looking at isn't fun and gets extremely annoying, for little effort on the pyro's part. The only real problem it presents in balance is that it makes the phlog's normal risk of use way lower since it's mmph can be obtained a lot more effortlessly. Conversely, the scorch also works extremely well - especially with the phlog - to counter another agreeably badly designed weapon, the Vaccinator. Afterburn weakens the shields it can make, so by effortlessly keeping that medic and his patients on fire pyro can directly counter the unfair edge that it can often lead to, even further with the phlog since he can farm mmmph off it and actually see some boost from the crits due to weakening the shields, if the medic can even react quickly enough.
It's like using one "overpowered" weapon to counter another. From a vacuum standpoint neither are really "overpowered" due to having very present counterplay, but at the same time that counterplay is extremely uncommon in casual, tf2's undoubtedly main mode. So because of that, they too often do feel overpowered, because they just aren't well fitted to the casual setting.
I feel like this is more of a problem with casual gamemode. There are plenty of weapons that are hard to counter without some sort of coordination. Phlog is easy to counter with either stickies under emoting pyro or just keeping distance, Wrangler cant survive two coordinated explosive classes, Vaccinator requires quite a lot of teamwork to shut down, Spy is pretty much countered with comunication no matter what kind of loudout he's using, so on and so forth.
The problem here is that it all requires teamwork. Pubs don't do that, unless you queue with friends. It is more of a poor philosophy behind weapon design than bad weapon design.
@@nihili4196 I've leaned further into considering scorch just overpowered now, but I'd definitely agree with you to some volume there. I think the big issue is that it's a weapon design kind of inconsiderate of tf2's casual focus in the current day, which is probably more an issue with how valve introduced casual and made the game funnel attention primarily into it without much work on every other aspect of the game to better fit into that (as opposed to weapon designs being introduced carelessly since by the time casual was set in place most of the game's weapons already existed).
Just watched the rest of the vid. Absolutely amazing. Dragon punch still confuses me but very good vid!
i will never stop loving my beloved loose cannon
I appreciate the use of splitgate
the superior halo infinite
I believe you are wrong about the loose cannon. It's counterplay is that of another demo weapon, the Scottish resistance. They both excel when you are prepared, like being at optimal donking distance or having all stickies laid down, but they are very weak when you are caught with your pants down, like being rushed with either weapon. A double donk on a close range, constantly moving target is as hard as its pipe counterpart and the loose cannon has limited range. Not only that, but a double needs time to charge(especially at close range) so enemies can rush you before you can output enough damage or donk them.
What option goes through everything in SF4? If you mean DP xx FADC forward, you can just backdash it on the opponents wakeup, and it's negative on block in the latest balance patch. If you mean DP XX FADC backward, you can still make the initial FADC whiff with a backdash on their wakeup. If you mean backdash, it's both option selectable and reactable. If you mean delay crouch tech, that not only had it's own version in SFV, it got blown up by everyone with a hopkick. (Though, the SFV version where you jump back before inputting throw did eventually get patched out.)
Love seein another street fighter / tf2 fan lol. Good video
Ty!
3:49
I see what you did with that joke, a good one well played.
this video was a fever dream
A fun one thou.
22:15 that sniper kill on the pyro was so dirty XD
This was a great video
I think that the cozy camper is a very fun weapon because it allows you to be more agressive and have to retreat less. Using it with the huntsman is especially fun because huntsman sniper stays near the front lines most of the time and if you happen to get hit with a splash rocket or something then you normally would have to retreat and get a health pack or risk dying to some more light splash damage, but with passive healing you can decide to risk it and stay on the front lines and get your health back over a small but not instant period of time. Deciding to do that instead of running away means that you can keep fighting for longer, but it also is a big risk because you can die much easier. I play with it in a way that is more fun than stock sniper, and I think it's more fun to fight an agressive sniper who takes risks that a sniper who has to run away every time they take 15 chip damage. So even though it's a passive ability, it still has a big impact on my gameplay.
I agree with most of the points in this video though. I think that the other backpacks suck as weapons because they don't really allow you to make different decisions than you would normally.
On sniper flinches, a good bit of counterplay for the sniper is to shoot between flinches, because your aim has enough time to fully reset in between ticks of damage over time. I've caught out pyros while burning before because they thought they were safe to pepper flares while doing nothing to dodge.
23:01
how did you know that I make rap 💀💀💀
2:43 LMAO, nearly did a spit-take after hearing that one
When you mentioned that maybe it should be a resource that you can fail at and takes skill, There's already an item for that, in the same slot. and works against the same 2 classes effectively as well as the other 7 pretty well. That's the Jarate. (also combined with the Bushwacka its just amazing btw)
I think a cool idea to rework a backpack would be something that when fully charged and unmoving for 5 seconds you become cloaked for 5 seconds
Love seeing a fighting game featured in a video
Thank you for talking about my favorite digital fashion show
i never saw the patreon content on bareback streets! thanks!
I like how at 11:56 the gameplay in the corner turns to the gameplay in the video
My favorite part of the video is when _cza found a postal pummeller
Self-aware but not in a weird cringey way, I love it
great video
The loose cannon is loose consents when it comes to gameplay
Factual
Loose cannon can also throw a heavy even while spun up and ubered directly backwards to the skybox on spam because it has a low fuse unlike the old version.
There's also the behind-the scenes counterplay between medics on opposite teams, of which Medigun to use. Big brain stuff
But yeah I think the devs aren't as concerned with balancing weapons against the enemy interaction any more per se, but against that character's own other weapons these days.
I love your sense of humor so much
I fucking love the cozy camper. That health regen when playing huntsman sniper is so nice to have
19:50
I don't agree with most of this section. Focusing solely on the potential damage per shot is ignoring most of the vulnerabilities the LC has.
First I'll mention that in practice the Loose Cannon doesn't actually have a 20% faster projectile speed. TF2 calculates air physics, and since the LC bombs have a much larger model they experience more drag. At the distances where the projectile speed would actually matter it isn't getting there much faster than stock.
Now for everything else, the LC doesn't just have to time shots, it has to *delay* shots. Sacrificing a half-second before you can fire at mid-range is a significant delay, and the closer the enemy gets the more time you have to spend charging. Spending .9 seconds charging to fire a single decently damaging projectile is far too slow to adequately defend yourself, and gives more than enough time for any close-range ambush (sans Heavy) to rip you to shreds. Thanks to this, any Soldiers, Demomen, Scouts, or Pyros who notice you have the LC can choose to ambush you much more recklessly, since when using the LC you struggle to deal good damage in close range.
This is where the knockback would come into play, since when you get ambushed at close range you can at least move them into your comfort zone. However, you still take significant damage before you can knock them away, in enclosed spaces you can't push them far enough away to adequately protect yourself, and knocking an enemy away allows them to disengage before you can fire a follow-up shot.
This is especially bad since the other options Demo has aren't that great for close range either. The Stickybombs suck in close range, the shields can't do decent damage in close range, and the melee options rely on the shields to do anything at all. Charging away to safety is the only non-LC option Demoman really has when using the LC, and that requires sacrificing your stickybomb launchers.
The charge delay isn't only bad for close range fights, either. It also forces you to spend time charging shots that other grenade launchers would just spend firing. Increasing your fire delay by upwards of .3s reduces your damage output significantly, and against anything that isn't a light class the damage bonus isn't worth the loss of fire rate. Any full-health class with 150 health and above takes the same number of bombs to kill, and any damaged class with more than 131 health still takes 2 shots. This makes the Loose Cannon worse against Soldier, Pyro, Demoman, and especially Heavy.
The knockback is a double-edged sword as well. It's great for pushing enemies out of position and stuffing Ubers, but it also moves enemies out of your effective range. Landing a bomb or possibly double-donk can make it difficult to land follow-up shots, which makes it much easier for enemies to retreat or pester you from outside your effective range. Soldiers and Heavies in particular like this, since they can survive a double-donk and proceed to punish you for hitting them. Heavies can also use this opportunity to retreat, since Heavies caught out of position often have to stand their ground and die, something they may not have to do against the Loose Cannon.
TL;DR, the Loose Cannon has very powerful traits that make it a valuable tool, especially in a more supportive role. However, the dramatic reduction in fire rate, potentially significant delay before you can fire a powerful double-donk, and knockback mechanics give the Loose Cannon a number of vulnerabilities unique to this weapon that enemies can exploit to gain the upper hand. In particular, approaching a LC Demoman becomes a viable way to win interactions, since the closer an enemy gets the slower and more unwieldy the Loose Cannon becomes.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the Loose Cannon in Team Fortress 2. While I appreciate your concerns, I believe that there are a few points that need to be addressed.
Firstly, I agree that the Loose Cannon may not have a significant advantage over the stock grenade launcher in terms of projectile speed. However, the Loose Cannon's projectile trajectory is much flatter than the stock launcher, which allows for more precise aiming and makes it easier to hit targets at range. Additionally, the knockback effect of the Loose Cannon can be a valuable tool in denying space to enemy players and creating opportunities for your team.
Regarding the issue of delay before firing, it's important to note that the Loose Cannon can be charged while you are moving, unlike the stock launcher. This allows for more flexibility in terms of positioning and can help you avoid enemy attacks while charging your shots. It's true that the delay before firing can be a disadvantage in close-range combat, but the same can be said for the stock launcher, which also requires a certain amount of time to arm each grenade. In fact, the Loose Cannon can be more effective in close range combat due to its knockback effect, which can allow you to create space and prevent enemies from getting too close.
I also disagree with the assertion that the Loose Cannon is not effective against heavier classes like Soldier, Pyro, Demoman, and Heavy. While it's true that these classes may require more shots to take down, the Loose Cannon's ability to deal burst damage and knockback can still be a valuable tool in disrupting their movements and creating opportunities for your team to attack. In particular, the Loose Cannon can be an effective counter to Heavy's who are using their minigun, as the knockback can cause them to lose accuracy and make it easier for you to take them down.
As for the issue of follow-up shots, it's important to note that the Loose Cannon's knockback effect can also make it easier to hit subsequent shots. By knocking an enemy away from you, you create space and make it easier to line up your shots without fear of retaliation. Additionally, the knockback can prevent enemies from taking cover behind obstacles, making it harder for them to avoid subsequent shots.
While it's true that the Loose Cannon may have certain vulnerabilities that can be exploited by enemy players, I believe that these weaknesses are outweighed by the weapon's strengths. The Loose Cannon can be a powerful tool in disrupting enemy movements, denying space, and creating opportunities for your team to attack. With practice and skill, it can be a valuable addition to any Demoman's arsenal.
@@cibervader The arc may be flatter, but I don't agree that this makes the weapon easier to land shots with. With enough understanding of a weapons arc you will naturally aim to compensate for it. Without much practice the Loose Cannon may be easier since a flatter arc is easier to compensate for, but once both are understood the results will be roughly the same. None of the grenade launchers are reliable at the ranges where the Loose Cannon could be better anyway, and at the ranges where they are most useful there won't be a significant difference.
You can charge a shot while on the move, but doing so won't allow you to accurately time shots to take advantage of double-donks. On top of that, doing so will waste valuable ammunition that will be sorely missed if you get ambushed. I'm also not sure what you mean by the stock launchers having a delay. The grenade launchers don't have a delay before firing, which is where they are superior to the Loose Cannon in close range. When I talked about the stickybomb launchers, that was in reference to Demoman's lack of other good options for close range combat. By taking the Loose Cannon you sacrifice your only reliable option.
I also did not claim that the Loose Cannon is not effective against Soldiers, Pyros, Demomen, or Heavies. Just that it is less effective against them than the other grenade launchers. The Loose Cannon takes the same number of shots to kill them if you can land double-donks, but is forced to fire much more slowly due to the need to charge your shots before you can fire. This makes you much more vulnerable to being ambushed and can easily double your TTK.
Speaking of which, something I forgot to mention for Pyro specifically is that the need to charge your shots to deal good damage makes your shots more predictable. For a Pyro who knows roughly the charge time you would need to land a double-donk, they can airblast them back at you much more consistently than they could if you used one of the other grenade launchers. To be fair this is a much more situational vulnerability, but it does exist.
The issue of follow-up shots is in regards to knocking enemies outside of your effective range. If an enemy closes in to try and exploit the Loose Cannons close range vulnerabilities they will end up in your optimal range, but if they are already in your optimal range and you hit them, you can knock them too far away for follow-up shots to connect reliably. This is where a Soldier or Heavy can exploit your knockback mechanics to disengage or continue to attack from their newfound position of safety.
I agree that the Loose Cannon is a very valuable support tool, since in team fights the ability to knock enemies out of position, stuff Ubers, or Double-Donk multiple enemies is extremely valuable. Additionally, the weaknesses of the Loose Cannon, namely slower TTK's on relevant classes and a vulnerability to ambushes, are not as important when you have a team to rely on. However, in the types of chaotic 1v1 encounters that often happen in TF2, the Loose Cannon's slower, more unwieldy nature make it a weaker option.
@@calsalitra4689 Thank you for your reply. I appreciate the thoughtful points you've raised about the Loose Cannon and its strengths and weaknesses. While I do agree with some of the points you've made, I also believe that there are other aspects of the Loose Cannon that make it a valuable weapon to consider.
Firstly, I agree that understanding a weapon's arc is important and can help compensate for it. However, I do believe that the flatter arc of the Loose Cannon does make it easier to land shots with compared to the other grenade launchers, especially for those who are still learning to use it. While the results may be roughly the same once both weapons are understood, the learning curve may be less steep with the Loose Cannon.
Regarding charging shots while on the move, I agree that it may not be the best option for timing shots to take advantage of double-donks. However, it can still be a useful tactic in certain situations where the enemy is not actively engaging you, allowing you to move while still charging a shot to be ready for the next engagement. And while it is true that charging shots can waste valuable ammunition, this can be mitigated by good ammo management and being aware of your surroundings.
As for the delay of the stock launchers, I believe the delay being referred to is the time it takes for the grenade to arm after it's been fired. While it may not be a significant delay, it can still make a difference in close range engagements where every second counts. In contrast, the Loose Cannon's ability to immediately detonate on impact can make it a more reliable option in those situations.
Regarding the lack of other good options for close range combat, I believe the Loose Cannon can still be a viable option for close range engagements, especially with its ability to immediately detonate on impact and knock enemies back. While it may not be as reliable as the stickybomb launcher, it can still provide a way to disengage from close range combat and reposition for a better engagement.
In terms of effectiveness against certain classes, I do agree that the Loose Cannon may be less effective against Soldiers, Pyros, Demomen, and Heavies compared to the other grenade launchers, especially with the need to charge shots before firing. However, I do believe that the ability to knock enemies back and disrupt their positioning can still be valuable in team fights and chaotic 1v1 encounters.
Regarding the issue of follow-up shots, I agree that knocking enemies out of your effective range can be a problem. However, I also believe that the knockback effect can be used strategically to control the battlefield and create space for yourself and your team. By knocking enemies away and forcing them to reposition, you can create opportunities for your team to take advantage of the chaos and gain the upper hand.
In summary, while I do concede some of the points you've raised about the Loose Cannon's weaknesses, I still believe that it can be a valuable weapon to consider, especially in certain situations and team compositions. Its ability to immediately detonate on impact and knock enemies back can provide strategic advantages in team fights, and its flatter arc and lack of delay can make it a more reliable option in close range engagements. While it may not be the best option in all situations, it can still be a viable and effective choice in the right circumstances.
@@cibervader Yes, it would probably be an easier weapon to learn the arc of, I think that makes sense. I'm not sure that offers much of an advantage though, since using the weapon properly requires much more than just proper aim, thanks to the charge mechanic.
I don't quite agree with this usage of the charge, personally. I'll admit I don't make significant use of the Loose Cannon so I don't have the experience to know for sure.
I think you're mistaken or confused on something here. The grenade launchers have no arm time. The instant they are fired they can detonate. This is what makes them Demoman's best close range option, since so long as he can aim properly he can deal damage instantly. Stickybomb launchers do have an arm time though, which makes them slow and unwieldy in close range. That is why I said that equipping the Loose Cannon leaves Demoman with no reliable close range options. The Loose Cannon and stickybomb launchers are slow and unwieldy in close range, the shields can't deal good damage in close range, and melee is situational.
Additionally, the Loose Cannon does not detonate immediately on impact. On impact, the Loose Cannon deals damage and knocks back the enemy. I'm not sure why you thought that it does, honestly, that's the whole purpose of the Double-Donk. Precisely timing the detonation of the projectile such that it explodes immediately after impacting the target.
That charge time is why the Loose Cannon becomes so unwieldy when the enemy gets too close. At close range you may need to charge the projectile for as long as .8s, by which point you'll likely already be dead. By the time the Loose Cannon has an opportunity to get a Double-Donk, a regular grenade launcher will have already fired twice and killed the enemy. You can fire a regular shot to push the enemy into your preferred range, but this eats up even more time that you can't afford to waste.
I have already stated in all of my comments thus far that I think the Loose Cannon is great for pushing enemies out of position and stuffing Ubers, even in my original comment before you replied. In that support role the Loose Cannon is great, and in that role its weaknesses (relatively low DPS, difficulty in close range) are not as pronounced. In this role it is undeniably great.
However, to reiterate what I've stated, in the chaotic 1v1s that often happen in TF2, the Loose Cannon's unwieldy nature makes it a weaker option. This does not mean I am saying it is a bad weapon, or that it is worse than stock. Just that in the context of 1v1 engagements, especially when taken by surprise, the Loose Cannon will underperform relative to the regular grenade launchers.
my new favourite UA-camr.
not limited in the words He can use, W
WHOO I LOVE STREET FIGHTER
I love this guys humor
15:05 Apparently I was watching a glimpse into the upcoming TF2 update.
awesome vid. You use a lot of footage from Borneo. I think this is one of the games best maps. Do you have any critiques or praise of it? You seem pretty knowledge on game design and I would love to hear your thoughts on this map.
It's a good map. A lot of the TF2 maps that came out later on are good, Pier, Borneo, stuff like that. The worst offenders are easily the 2009 maps that rely on chokes to try and teach players to play medic. Like Goldrush.
11:40 bro its valentines day what a great video to watch today with that in here lol
Excellent video, I subscribed. What’s your opinion on the sniper rifle then? It seems a bit like you dodged that question through the whole video.
Thanks
Issue about you claiming that loose cannon is harder to dodge because of the projectile speed:
due to how source handles flying projectiles of different sizes, the canonball is actually slower than the other grenade types due to how air resistance is simulated, so really your conclusions there are literally opposite of the game's reality. This can be seen on toofty's stock vs iron bomber video at the 3:10 mark
Would you coinsider the sapper similar to things like the razor back and danger shield?
Counterpoint for the razorback: it's only poorly designed for back-line snipers.
On huntsman snipers, it creates just enough of a disruption for a spy that he needs to more meaningfully pick his backstab targets rather than getting one and suddenly having full speed/health-boosted power to trickstab the entire team. All this at the cost of genuinely useful secondary that would make finishing off low-health enemies much easier.
I compare it to the huo long heater in that it covers the areas you can't always be watching, but doesn't completely shut down a spy's effectiveness. (Since sniper isn't exactly the most effective at close range without his jarate)
New TF2 youtuber that is actually quite funny? Im in
Lets go
Razorback is not a useless item. If sniper sits around his teammates or around his sentry with razorback then he basically becomes invincible to any of spy's weapons except the diamondback. The only way for the spy to actually kill sniper in this scenario is to sacrifice himself in exchange to snipers life (if sniper sits around level 3 sentry then even this strat might not work).
Trading after a backstab is half of spy's entire gameplan. If you're paying attention to your surroundings the SMG is better, and if you're positioned next to a sentry you can still get revolver 2 tapped. A competent spy isn't gonna attack when he's in view of a sentry - especially when he now doesn't have to be close enough for a backstab. The Razorback is only good against bad spies - which is the case for literally every weapon in the game.
@@kalukagamingfellaguy I think you have a major flaw in your argument. You are saying that razorback doesnt fulfill its purpose of protecting sniper from spies. In the same time you admit that any competent spy will not attack sniper with razorback in front of the enemy's team or a sentry. So razorback actually counters spy after all? All sniper needs to do is stay around his teammates or a sentry and he will be nearly impossible to kill. And if the spy needs to sacrifice himself to kill sniper because of the razorback, then I am pretty sure razorback did its job perfectly. Im not arguing that razorback is better than other secondary weapons. All im saying is that this weapon is unfair and should be deleted since it is capable with little effort of nullifying the only class that counters sniper.
not enough people talk about the actual game design of tf2 thank you
fun fact razorback blocks holiday punchs back stab thingy
I am obsessed with this dry, “I personally hate you, the viewer” energy
ty lmao
Loose Cannon doesn't have a faster rocket speed lmfao. It's way slower. Problem is Valve just added it so it would seem better than it already is. On release the projectile speed was 50% faster. Now that was way faster than normal pills. Then they nerfed the speed by 30% and its now slower than normal pills.
I know the Loose Cannon has a listed projectile speed bonus but I feel like it isn't faster than the other pills? idk could just be me
Well that because the projectile of the Loose Cannon experiences drag, which slows it down compared to other grenades…
Notice that even with just a 5% speed difference the Loose Cannon never reach the same distance the Loch n Load can reach.
ua-cam.com/video/ACfafLuLmy8/v-deo.html
This old video demonstrates the range of the grenade projectiles without any speed bonuses.
Hey just a note: due to tf2 (surprisingly) calculating air resistance, the loose cannon actually has roughly the same projectile speed as stock, and is as about as difficult to hit.
Contrary to your claim the loose cannon does actually have counterplay; its charge timing and its range.
Regrading its range, if you encounter a god-tier loose cannon demo you can just stay out of his range pretty easily, since the cannonball explodes faster then all the other pills it has a noticeably shorter range (~drangon's fury range at best) you can just... chip away at him like a pyro and be on your merry way.
The more technical and "big brained" way of dealing with a L.C demo would be to... move backwards... or forwards!
Since the L.C works by the charging of the weapon lowering its airtime to sync an collision with the projectile with its explosive, basically meaning that the demo has to match the charge with your distance, you can abuse his constant charging speed by either:
- rushing down the demo faster then he can charge the weapon, forcing him to either continue charging, giving you time to kill him or shooting early, forgoing the double donk and just hitting you for 50+something splash.
-moving back, since the demo cant increase the airtime of the projectile it forces the demo to release the halfcharged projectile prematurely, wasting time and clip, giving you ample opportunity to move in/get away.
This is why the loose cannon allows you to cannon jump, since it gives the demo a built in ability (thats not the sticky bomb launcher) to enter a battle in a positional advantage to surprise an opponent thats moving in a consistent pace or to gain a height advantage that makes the moving back and forward strategy less effective.
Moreover, the nature of the charging means forgoing range and dps, which are fundamental to the role of a demoman. With the L.C, the demo specialises in either single target elimination or the rare massive burst of damage against a big group, instead of a even more massive ~400 dmg 4 pills can get you in the time you can shoot 1.5 cannon shots
Tldr: you can still move out of the way of cannon shots, the pill speed is the same, and the weapon has counterplay
something something the loose cannon projectile is actually very slightly slower than stock because of aerodynamics and the shape of the cannonball
Where did my bottom right video tuned to my preferences go? I was watching that until I wasn't and now it's gone : (
8:20 Every copy of Kakula 64 is personalized.
with the phlog
even a semi-competent demoknight
(a subclass which usually can't even hit pyro)
can completely wall the pyro
cuz all of the shields have fire resistance, the booties give extra health, and the swords deal good damage
I feel like the sniper rifles have this problem. Interactions with snipers are extremely onesided and unfun for the person in the sightline, and dying to a good sniper is way more infuriating than dying to a good
Talking about loose cannon again i can't agree with your point because it really is possible to counterplay and minimize the dmg you take against it if u know how you yourself would aim it. Unlike most weaponst where strafing left to right is more effective, loose cannon requires prediction of the distance, and by knowing it and seen enemy demo with loose cannon you know you can move closer or further from him unpredictably to get upperhand. Altough i agree that knockback part is stupid. And if you keep in mind what i just said, maybe it is not the design of the timing mechanic is unfun, but the knockback, which is not under control of any player. Great vid!