This video had an incredibly troubled production over the course of a month and a bit, on and off. But I decided to stick at it as I really liked the core idea of the video. I apologise if there are a few inconsistencies here and there! Edit: Spelt "Opportunistic" wrong
I like how the video starte with "nobody rated subclasses [or playstiles] as pick power support" and then it ends with "they're all pick, except for the ones that are barely considered subclasses by anyone"
Partway through this video, I realised this. And I also realised why no one bothered to rank them by the criteria before. But it was worth a go anyway!
@@Lonqudor @somnvm37 Honestly, I think there's still something valuable to gain from here. This way, we understand subclasses in a new dimension, which can help with coming up with weapons. Now we we understand that there's not much in the way of primarily support subclasses, for example, and can start asking how we'd go about it.
Disappointing to see you do not recognise MIGHTY Righteous Bison as its own subclass. If I were to rank it myself, it would place it as a Pick, Power and Support! The Morale boost of seeing an unbridled monster of a weapon on your side is better than any banner!
When I saw bonk boy I assumed it was going to be a play style that involves the atomic punch being used to help your team push by drawing fire and flanking
I wish we could replace both Heavy's Minigun and Shotgun with lunchboxes. Just running around as some kind of First-Aid Heavy and giving everyone healthpacks.
I think Heavy would appreciate a new unlock with a name that is reversed Russian. So I propose "Hscomop Ayaksnistdem Ayavrep" which is reversed "Pervaya Meditsinskaya Pomosch" which transcribes to "Первая Медицинская Помощь" which translates to "First Medical Aid"
Good thing I already watched Fish's video on the matter and now have a formed opinion of what is a subclass (I don't have my own thoughts so his opinions are mine)
Most people used to call this booties demo,or demospam I think when it used to be op combo(booties used to give speed boost even without shields so some demos opt in to use booties over grenades)
IMO I think something only counts as a true subclass when it changes the class's primary role to a different role (ie. power to pick in the case of demoknight). I also don't really consider hybrid roles to be a thing, since they're really just slight tweaks to the original playstyle. Scout, Sniper and Spy are pick classes, plus Battle Engie, Battle Medic, Demoknight, Fat Scout and Trolldier as pick subclasses. Heavy, Demo and Soldier are power classes. Medic, Pyro and Engineer are support classes. Pretty much all the mercs have some support options, and of course they can all get kills, so technically everyone is a mix. The reason all the subclasses are pick classes is because it's intrinsically easier to enable that role by scrapping supportive options than it is to add new supportive options. The Mad Milk exists I guess but obviously it's not that good. If they add that fanny pack concept for Scout then it's definitely a support subclass though. This also means that the only non-pick class to have no pick subclass is Pyro, because can you imagine how miserable that would be? I mean you could count Pyroshark but she has been blessedly constrained to the ocean so she doesn't wreak havoc. I'd be interested to see some really wacky mixups like a Power Medic or that Support Scout I mentioned. Support Heavy that sets up a grill and starts handing out burgers? Support Spy that's more focused on disabling? idk
I would have included the Dragon's Fury pyro myself. Generic pyro, and most pyro playstyles fall into pick/support with just a sprinkle of power if need be. DF changes pyeo into a powerhouse, reauiring an entirely different playstyle. With DF pyro is power, with a pinch of pick thrown in. Its my favorite weapon for how well it works, how it subverts pyro's normal playstyle while still feeling like Pyro
Agree that he should've included Dragon Fury Pyro but disagree with him being powerhouse. He's a pure pick, and you'd know it if you play tons of him like me where even if you shoot at the crowd of enemies you can still miss so much because of small hitbox. Also having weakest airblast also doesn't help him being a power class.
Fun fact, when done properly gunspy can also be a damn menace, which leads me to believe he’s Pick/Power since if your using the Amby or the Diamond back with the spycicle and dr you can maximise the time you spend alive with your dps if you’ve got good aim.
@@artifactU cause of the crazy amount of crits you can rack up even just by destroying buildings. But yeah Amby is better since you can always crit with headshots. With some prep diamondback can match up.
i think pybro isn't a subclass because it a change of playstyle rather than a huge change in how the class plays, you just get rid off your offensive capabilites by choice and strictly prioritize defence by helping your fellow engies. Also if you are doing a good job as pyro aka spy checking, reflecting projectiles heading for sentries or team mates you are objectively better than a pybro, since you are also able to help on offence(if you are able to do the before mentioned things first)-sorry for bad English but it's not my first language😅
I think of pyroshark, fat scout, and battle medic as sort of a situational mindset. I do what the class is supposed to do, but whenever I'm in a specific situation (underwater as pyro, too lazy to rev up my minigun, or there's no one to heal) I will switch to playing as that subclass for a few seconds until I'm able to play normally.
11:29 this just gave me an idea for a medic weapon. “Der Kugelschlauch” (The Bullet Hose) Normal medigun stats, but it has an ammo counter. Basically a mobile dispenser, heals a little slower than the medigun at the cost of replenishing the ammo on the healed player from your ammo reserve (does not affect heals), and that applies to all weapons. So if you do your pyro puff and sting, healed by a Kugelschlauch medic, and then need to puff a spy, your flaregun will be reloaded in your pocket by the time you pull it out again. On Übercharge, you gain infinite ammo to yourself and your healed target, + increased heal speed at the same rate as the quickfix. Non-über ammo and heal speeds are at minigun firerate and above dispenser heal rate respectively. On the note of ammo, you have 200, and 1 ammo is worth 1 ammo. That’s pretty much it. You can, thus, heal a heavy and give them bullets at the same rate he shoots them, giving him a second full ammo drum. The model I imagine would look like a modified MG-34 from ww2, because it’s on theme and fitting.
That’s a really good idea. I feel it’d make Medic help out even more on the frontlines because (unless there’s a payload cart nearby) you can very easily keep your team both healed and supplied to keep the fight up instead of running back for an ammo pack midway through
i'd argue pybro is pure support, every class role is going to involve elements of power or pick, so it's more useful to categorize those if they're exemplary in those roles whereas support is somewhat more rare. (which the chart shows in the end pretty clearly) In this case Pyro is primarily dedicated themselves to buzzing around something or someone they want to defend, usually sentry nests, and making it difficult to attack it. I think i'd also kick Battle Engie to Support/Power, it's definitely not what you'd imagine as a power class, but I envision pick classes as classes that have tools to run into a situation and cut a specific target down easily - battle engie is very limited to what he can double team with his sentry unless he has FJ crits on tap, but I do think he qualifies as "power" to at least some degree. I think the nature of TF2 also just limits what can and can't be a "power class", given that they kind of need at least reasonable killing power and staying power all the same - which is why I can see the argument for Demoknight being pick-power
as far as gunspy goes I've always thought of it more focused on the dead wringer than the revolver playstyle wise, with it giving you a reactive option to use in combat. essentially just playing spy fast, engaging with your team using revolver instead of trying to get behind enemies while acting mostly alone and using invis or feign to reposition or disengage, the damage reduction and later speed boost of the dead ringer was a big help for that also battlemedic if you consider it more about selfish play (rather than not healing people because you think its funny) can get a lot out of vaccinator, the easiest medigun by a long way to use selfishly (outside of two meds uberchaining). charges quickly if you put some healing out in downtime or land an Ubersaw and the bubbles can really let you engage on opponents
This was a pretty cool video, I haven't seen anyone really talk about this before. If you decide to do a part two (because there are still plenty more subclasses even under your rules, Charged-Shot Soldier and Hoovy come to mind), I personally would like to nominate the Dragon's Fury Pyro, as while the playstyle may look similar from an outside perspective, it actually differs rather substantially when you look a bit deeper. Notably, it trades a massive amount of Pyro's support effectiveness for an equally massive increase in power, which is normally something that Pyros tend to struggle with due to to the extremely limited range and and sub-par damage output of the flamethrower. Additionally, a note on Gunspy, it HAS been a thing for a long time, it was just mostly focused on the Ambassador prior to its nerf. People only started using stock because they stopped using the Amby after JI and realized "Oh hey, this thing is actually surprisingly powerful if you can consistently land your shots with it."
I must say, please acknowledge dragon's fury Pyro (I like to call it 'Pyro cannon') as a subclass. I think it categorizes as Power. 'Pyro cannon' is dragon's fury Pyro with a flare gun of one's choice as well as the powerjack. 'Pyro cannon' focuses on offence over spy checking and is very different to a normal flame thrower. The dragon's fury can bust down sentry nests extremely fast and is on-par with the power of a Soldier or Demo. 'Pyro cannon' is a sub-class that takes skill and practice to turn pyro into an offensive powerhouse.
now that the gas passer allows for wet enemies on demand, I'd say that noble pyro (which is pyro shark with the gas passer) is all 3, as his flamethrower has good aoe damage, the neon gives massive single taget damage and the gas passer still works as a decent support tool
i would say that battle engie is actually power support and not pick support because you don't really go for picks you go and fight on the front line. I also think pybro is all 3 mostly because i don't think it matters what flame thrower you are using, pyro is a power class he can deal lots of damage to groups and thats for every flame thrower, pybro can be the best of the three worlds cause you can have your flame thrower for power, one of the flare guns for pick, and then the homewrecker for support (it also makes it so pyro can deal with building without needing the dragons fury)
i remember playing sticky tank but not knowing the name for it at the time. i just thought it was cursed as hell that i was using the booties with the scottish resistance specifically lol
My favourite psuedo-subclass is Skrumpyknight. Prove your worth while downing a bottle the entire time. Essentially: "I'm drunk, you don't have an excuse!"
okay well if gun spy and pyroshark can be subclasses then melee heavy (bison steak + a melee of your choice, usually either fists of steel or holiday punch depending on the situation) can be too. It is genuinely a very effective way of playing (especially if you're good with effective pathing). I would personally put it in the pick category also i personally like the playstyle of caber jumper (sticky jumper + caber + a grenade launcher of your choice, in my case it is the loose cannon) which is actually quite good on maps with high ceilings like koth maps (especially suijin and harvest, both because of the high ceiling, but also due to the lack of too many tall props and the overabundance of overly confident sniper and spy players)
Even if I disagree a lot with your videos you always atleast provide interesting content, and that's no exception. Realy bewildering video ngl, I get(or I think I do) the logic behind why you think pyro shark is a subclass worthy, but if that's the case, why isn't there piranha scout subclass? Because atomizer can let scout be strong underwater in same way neon sign lets you and yet he's not on the list, and yet there's *milk boy?* Cmon maaan, are we really using secondary unlocks to define a class? 😅 Remember majority of classes, if not all 9, are defined by their primaries(Engy, Medic, Spy are exceptions but they're defined by one weapon still, it's just not called primary). If banner soldier is subclass worthy then is shotgun soldier subclass worthy? See why most people define subclasses by primaries? 😅 Only real big critique is you missing out on real subclasses like Dragon Fury Pyro, cmon, you literally go from inconsistent flames to strong projectile this ought to make a new subclass no? 🥺
Gun spy is people who wanted to play sniper, but didn't want to shoot in le head, and saw that revolvers are more efficient than noscoping, and way more fun than waiting 2-3 seconds in between hs with the Sydney Sleeper. (Also, the revolver is a decent weapon, not the main point of spy though, as sniper is better than him at picking with a gun.)
From experienve: The best battle medic playstyle is to carry something that can heal someone really quickly so you can both then continue shooting the enemy. So probably the quick fix. Kritz also has the taunt that heals you, can surprisingly save you at times. Any primary really works but it depends on what you want to accomplish. Base syringe gun is decently reliable, just like the blutsauger. The crossbow is long ranged, deals a great deal of damage and can heal in a pinch. Overdose gets slandered a lot but it's not a bad weapon. Having uber and getting that speed boost can either help you close or widen the gap between enemies, but it's definitely the weaker choice still. Stock melee is a great choice. Ubersaw is better if you're going with overdose. The Vow allows you to pick fights more easily because you can see their health. The other melee are not as useful sadly. And experience from gun spy: Any revolver works, but most people will get more reliable damage from any other weapon that isn't the amby. The most useful one is probably diamond. Get some saps and backstabs when possible, then pull out your pocket rifle and kill everything. After all, you are still a spy, if an opportunity appears, you should take it. As for the knife, definitely spycicle. If a pyro hugs you, ut can give you a second small chance. Dead ringer serves the same purpose really. As for the sapper... I know this sounds bad but red tape recorder. If you disguise yourself and quickly sap a sentry, there's a chance you may survive the damage from a level 2 or 1, it gives you a bit more breathing room.
The definition for subclass has always been very wishy-washy but i do think there is a fine line between a playstyle/just a loadout and a subclass, i don't know the criteria either so its somewhat based on my opinion but i dont think stuff like banner soldier, bonk boy, sticky tank, combo pyro, gun spy, and roamer count as subclasses but simply just peoples playstyles.
What I do when I play gun spy is that I usually hang around my team more, trying to deal damage with my revolver and help them push, but I do sometimes just disappear from my team in order to get a few stabs. The main difference being that gun spy spends less time trying to get that pick and more time just dealing damage with their revolver. A good way you can go about it is if your team is holding a ground or is pushing, but you can see that the push is gonna fail or that the enemy team will take that space away, you can just cloak away and wait till the enemy pushes up to stab them in the back.
I'm really glad to see someone talk about this. I've always defined subclasses by how they change the classes position in the pick, power, support dynamic. Anything that doesn't actually change that is at best a playstyle. I fully get the roamer hate. Genuinely that role seems tk attract a special kind of basement dweller who always has a vac or crit medic girlfriend. Just unpleasant to fight against and disruptive ti the game flow. Random medium health class in your backline with far too much ability to engage and disengage at a moments notice and considerable damage outpit plus the ability to push you around. Annoying bastard.
some additions id like to implement are the Combat Medic and Artillery soldier subclasses. Now yes, combat medic is different than battle medic - difference is combat medic actually *fucking HEALS* his teammates only choosing to engage in fights in self defense or to close out a fight that is simply taking too long, that ones going in pick-supp. Artillery Soldier on the other hand (CM5K+BB) I'd argue to be all 3 because yes you're likely going to be picking off random players at sniper ranges but you're also doing 170 dmg in one shot to potentially multiple people and once you have banner, if you do choose, you can rush in and destroy everyone's asses or just continue to hang back but spam regular cow mangler shots now mini-crit boosted by the BB.
@@magnum78923 well no cuz normal medics run the crossbow, combat medic uses syringe gun. and if you'd wanna simplify it like that i could say that trolldier is soldier with a shovel... when ya simplify it it doesn't sound like much but then again thats all subclasses. demo w/ sword, heavy w/ shotgun, spy w/ gun. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@TMCRGaming ...no, let me rephrase it. Normal medics just run the crossbow because it's the best in generalized use. Even if they ran the syringe gun, medic is still medic: he heals, buffs and ubercharges teammates. These are the crux of the class. You can choose 'not' to do those things, but the class remains the same. Battle medic is a meme, but it isn't a subclass. And no, i'm not simplifying it. Trolldier IS a subclass because he can't do what a regular soldier does- he is strictly a pick subclass.
Sticky tank/sticky knight is so underrated. It's not better than pipes but the ability to bomb more and have scarier crit ubers is amazing. BTW sticky tank and sticky knight are technically different subclasses. If the boots offered some form of blast resistance it might actually be viable or at the very least have a niche.
If you can't aim the melee with speed and bleed. The sun on a stick miiiiiight help with encountering pyros since a single particle either way will kill your boost but the son on a stick (s.o.a.s) has a chance at being useful for it.
Funny enough I am both a Huntsman and Gunspy player. I love the huntsman because you can spam arrows and get some easy kills, As for gunspy sure it can be hard to get some easy kills but I feel happy whenever I kill a Pyro with a gun I always want to try and be a battle engineer which I normally play on community servers so I could use different weapons for him that actually work
First off, i was expecting the video to be about using categorization to DEFINE what should be a subclass, not ranking them on a pie chart. Even though it makes less sense, i'd make the title say "rank" so there's no confusion. (or show the chart in the thumbnail) Second, you didn't explain what the categories mean in any capacity before getting into it. (which is weird considering there's a section of video called "categories explained". I was so confused when you were putting sticky tank in support, because it doesn't buff anything, so i have no idea what it means yet
i can push past chokes entirely on my own (half zatoichi and an extreme amount of luck) but demoknight is a pick class id call stickytank a stickyknight dont ask why
Hi I am one of those people who will disagree with some subclasses, banner soldier I don’t say is a subclass because his play style doesn’t vary too far from “stock” play style, air strike and roamer are more play style, air strike is less
Team fortress 2 only has 5 subclasses: Trolldier, Dragon's fury pyro, demoknight, gunslinger engineer and huntsman sniper. Everything else is just the same class, the same class but played with gimmicks or in an arbitrary way.
You know, we need to know a difference between subclass and playstyle. Most of them are just playstyles. The only subclasses here are demoknight, troldier, maybe huntsman and battle engine, but the last to are arguable.(they don't change their gameplay that drastically). Others are just playstyles. Like banner soldier is just using his unlockable, fat scouts just handicapping themselfs for fun and gunspy just use his damn primary more often. These can't be considered as subclasses. I by no means offending the author, just bringing my opinion.
It’s funny that you say that, because it kind of proves my point in the beginning. I personally do not consider using the Huntsman to be a subclass, it’s one weapon change, with a rather different playstyle, but nowhere near as different as others like Demoknight or Troldier. We as a community really cannot agree on what a subclass is. I did include several “subclasses” on my list that I personally wouldn’t think are subclasses, but there would be outrage if I didn’t include them. Like the Huntsman. You are right in that I probably should have gone into greater depth about the subject
Like I said in another comment, I think a subclass is a loadout that makes the player unable to fulfill their class' original role. A trolldier for example, cannot fight like a normal soldier does, their rockets do no damage, but a pyroshark can leave the water and pull out their flamethrower to be a normal pyro, and a gun spy...can just use the rest of his loadout
@@-RandomStranger- imo subclasses should be defined from a third person pov- if i see a fat scout on my team or my enemies i'm going to play around them very differently from if i see a heavy, so fat scout or roamer are subclasses whereas something like bleed scout wouldn't be
@@Lonqudor so, you include all of these just to not enrage the community? Yeah, as long as I know it, this is reasonable. I am going to answer to your comment and comment below: I suppose subclass can be defined by a single weapon, that changes playstyle drastically. For example: demoknight can be defined by using shield. Hybrid knight is still demoknight because he uses shield, just different playstyle of his. Stickytank is still demoman, even with booties and eyelander, just because he doesn't use the shield. Troldier is also like this. He can be all stock or even direct hit user, as long as his main source of damage is market gardener, he should be considered troldier. The variation of other weapons should be considered as playstyle of such subclass. Same with engine and gunslinger. Huntsman sniper on other side, while technically has one defining weapon, that changes his playstyle, hardly can be considered a subclass because he is, well, still sniper. Just more aggressive. You know, giving how spammy and luck based it's arrows, he should be pick-power lol. I hope I give my point on subclasses. Btw, brass beast or Natasha heavy with dalokosh bar effect can tank a fully charged huntsman headshot.
7:49 people play ROAMER SOLDIER not because they are the Gods of the game but because he is VERY FUN TO PLAY, I am not surprised that you think that he isn't because you are a heavy main.
I gotta say I agree with the definition of what a subclass is, however it pains me watching contradict the definition itself immediately stating pyroshark is a subclass giving that none of the other weapons synergizes (idk if that's correctly spelled) with the neon sign
I basically had two definitions of what I thought a subclass was. I believe Pyroshark to be a legitimate subclass as it gives Pyro a completely an utterly unique fighting style in a very specific situation, water. Pyro’s flamethrowers do not work underwater. This subclass counteracts that very small niche weakness of his, which is why I think it is a real subclass. Something like the back scratcher, for example, fixes no niche weakness of Pyros whilst also encouraging a unique style. I don’t consider that a subclass because it does not tick two boxes.
15:37 You know playing gun spy doesn't mean throwing your knife away, you could've backstabbed that heavy because there is no way you will be able to gun him down before he kills you, john is very disapointed in you
I’m surprised that most tf2 subclasses are mostly pick classes. I was kinda of hoping for the subclasses to be more diverse rather than a pick class most of the time.
This video had an incredibly troubled production over the course of a month and a bit, on and off. But I decided to stick at it as I really liked the core idea of the video. I apologise if there are a few inconsistencies here and there!
Edit: Spelt "Opportunistic" wrong
WHY DID'NT YOU ADD SOLDIERAI IN THERE?!!
@@chickentbored2 what
@@TrixterTheFemboy soldierai is a sub class that only use the katana with the conch
I like how the video starte with "nobody rated subclasses [or playstiles] as pick power support" and then it ends with "they're all pick, except for the ones that are barely considered subclasses by anyone"
Battle engineer isn't a subclass‼️
The jag is the real battle engineer weapon nobody uses
Partway through this video, I realised this. And I also realised why no one bothered to rank them by the criteria before.
But it was worth a go anyway!
@@Lonqudor @somnvm37 Honestly, I think there's still something valuable to gain from here. This way, we understand subclasses in a new dimension, which can help with coming up with weapons. Now we we understand that there's not much in the way of primarily support subclasses, for example, and can start asking how we'd go about it.
@@Lonqudor face now i need to see
Ah yes throwaway lvl 3 sentries.
"Battle engineer isn't a subclass, it's a mindset, you got your mind stuck to the meta game"
-Frontier Justice Song Guy
Du du duuu dudududu dudududu dudududu-du
Uncle dane
I like how scout has a sub-class of "speed and bleed" and then there is "BONK BOY"
Disappointing to see you do not recognise MIGHTY Righteous Bison as its own subclass.
If I were to rank it myself, it would place it as a Pick, Power and Support!
The Morale boost of seeing an unbridled monster of a weapon on your side is better than any banner!
When I saw bonk boy I assumed it was going to be a play style that involves the atomic punch being used to help your team push by drawing fire and flanking
Interesting definition of what a subclass is. It's a very difficult thing to differentiate between subclass and playstyle change, very fuzzy.
CHRIS WHEN WILL YOU MAKE YOUR GLORIOUS RETURN TO ATF2L!?
@@switZ7Q wtf are you doing here
also I live in europe now so ATF2L is off the table for me
@@TheCrappyCompletionist i watch lonqudor! when will you come back to singapore!?!
@@switZ7Q I'm not, I've moved away for a while now.
Yeah like Pybro. Which isn't a subclass at all. It's a playstyle where you focus on assisting the Engineer. Doesn't even need a specific loadout
I wish we could replace both Heavy's Minigun and Shotgun with lunchboxes. Just running around as some kind of First-Aid Heavy and giving everyone healthpacks.
I think Heavy would appreciate a new unlock with a name that is reversed Russian. So I propose "Hscomop Ayaksnistdem Ayavrep" which is reversed "Pervaya Meditsinskaya Pomosch" which transcribes to "Первая Медицинская Помощь" which translates to "First Medical Aid"
So… BEEG medic?
Good thing I already watched Fish's video on the matter and now have a formed opinion of what is a subclass (I don't have my own thoughts so his opinions are mine)
First mention of sticky tank I've seen, and as a hybrid demo player it's the only way I use stickies. Great vid!
Most people used to call this booties demo,or demospam I think when it used to be op combo(booties used to give speed boost even without shields so some demos opt in to use booties over grenades)
IMO I think something only counts as a true subclass when it changes the class's primary role to a different role (ie. power to pick in the case of demoknight). I also don't really consider hybrid roles to be a thing, since they're really just slight tweaks to the original playstyle. Scout, Sniper and Spy are pick classes, plus Battle Engie, Battle Medic, Demoknight, Fat Scout and Trolldier as pick subclasses. Heavy, Demo and Soldier are power classes. Medic, Pyro and Engineer are support classes. Pretty much all the mercs have some support options, and of course they can all get kills, so technically everyone is a mix. The reason all the subclasses are pick classes is because it's intrinsically easier to enable that role by scrapping supportive options than it is to add new supportive options. The Mad Milk exists I guess but obviously it's not that good. If they add that fanny pack concept for Scout then it's definitely a support subclass though. This also means that the only non-pick class to have no pick subclass is Pyro, because can you imagine how miserable that would be? I mean you could count Pyroshark but she has been blessedly constrained to the ocean so she doesn't wreak havoc.
I'd be interested to see some really wacky mixups like a Power Medic or that Support Scout I mentioned. Support Heavy that sets up a grill and starts handing out burgers? Support Spy that's more focused on disabling? idk
Piss
For pyroshark you can Air blast victim into water, detonator jump after them, hold jump to slide on top of the water
I would have included the Dragon's Fury pyro myself. Generic pyro, and most pyro playstyles fall into pick/support with just a sprinkle of power if need be. DF changes pyeo into a powerhouse, reauiring an entirely different playstyle. With DF pyro is power, with a pinch of pick thrown in. Its my favorite weapon for how well it works, how it subverts pyro's normal playstyle while still feeling like Pyro
Agree that he should've included Dragon Fury Pyro but disagree with him being powerhouse. He's a pure pick, and you'd know it if you play tons of him like me where even if you shoot at the crowd of enemies you can still miss so much because of small hitbox. Also having weakest airblast also doesn't help him being a power class.
@@danielsurvivor1372 thats fair, Im not super experienced with Pyro as I dont play TF2 very often, but I do watch vids about it often
Fun fact, when done properly gunspy can also be a damn menace, which leads me to believe he’s Pick/Power since if your using the Amby or the Diamond back with the spycicle and dr you can maximise the time you spend alive with your dps if you’ve got good aim.
why would you use the diamondback with gunspy
@@artifactU cause of the crazy amount of crits you can rack up even just by destroying buildings. But yeah Amby is better since you can always crit with headshots. With some prep diamondback can match up.
Gunspy with enforcer pierces Wrangler's sentry shield, and also vaccinator, and dead ringer death resistances gets ignored
but then you have to actually use the Enforcer.
@@KomajuDraws so? The enforcer isn't even a bad weapon.
@@Welcometoyourlocalchannel yea im nust goofin. i just never see people use it cause really, when does the situation arise.
@@KomajuDraws I mean if you use the Your Eternal Reward you technically can get more use out of the damage bonus stat
@@Welcometoyourlocalchannel i did not realize that. i dont play spy like ever so i dont know the Strats. thank u for the info ill have to mess w it
Lonqudor upload---->Endorphins released
i think pybro isn't a subclass because it a change of playstyle rather than a huge change in how the class plays, you just get rid off your offensive capabilites by choice and strictly prioritize defence by helping your fellow engies. Also if you are doing a good job as pyro aka spy checking, reflecting projectiles heading for sentries or team mates you are objectively better than a pybro, since you are also able to help on offence(if you are able to do the before mentioned things first)-sorry for bad English but it's not my first language😅
English is pretty good
everyone is entitled to their own opinions, nno matter how wrong they are
Fat scout is NOT a pick subclass. It's a power subclass, it's even a viable power subclass.
11:52 combo pyro is the jack of all trades
I think of pyroshark, fat scout, and battle medic as sort of a situational mindset. I do what the class is supposed to do, but whenever I'm in a specific situation (underwater as pyro, too lazy to rev up my minigun, or there's no one to heal) I will switch to playing as that subclass for a few seconds until I'm able to play normally.
BRO'S MARRIED???
He did the impossible
Yeah, to a truck
Gunspy is like trying to play sniper but with a shitty gun and the ability to cloak
It’s better to call it Stealth Sniper
No, that's ambassador spy. I think Gunspy is more of a ScoutSpy.
@@YishaiBarr they nerfed the ambassador so it can’t get good shot from far away anymore
@@Flamma_Dreemurr Just as well. Sniper but with a shitty gun.
I prefer to play gun spy with a dr tbh. I don’t use it otherwise.
11:29 this just gave me an idea for a medic weapon. “Der Kugelschlauch” (The Bullet Hose) Normal medigun stats, but it has an ammo counter. Basically a mobile dispenser, heals a little slower than the medigun at the cost of replenishing the ammo on the healed player from your ammo reserve (does not affect heals), and that applies to all weapons. So if you do your pyro puff and sting, healed by a Kugelschlauch medic, and then need to puff a spy, your flaregun will be reloaded in your pocket by the time you pull it out again. On Übercharge, you gain infinite ammo to yourself and your healed target, + increased heal speed at the same rate as the quickfix. Non-über ammo and heal speeds are at minigun firerate and above dispenser heal rate respectively. On the note of ammo, you have 200, and 1 ammo is worth 1 ammo. That’s pretty much it. You can, thus, heal a heavy and give them bullets at the same rate he shoots them, giving him a second full ammo drum.
The model I imagine would look like a modified MG-34 from ww2, because it’s on theme and fitting.
That’s a really good idea. I feel it’d make Medic help out even more on the frontlines because (unless there’s a payload cart nearby) you can very easily keep your team both healed and supplied to keep the fight up instead of running back for an ammo pack midway through
@@Candee_The_Reaper pretty much, the plan was to be a personal payload cart. And in conjunction with the payload cart, you get double the effect
It would be funny if it was an actual hose, but modified to fire bullets.
@@Aaa-vp6ug an MG34 with a garden hose spliced to the barrel,
@@Jaqoum_The_Wizard_King heck yeah!
i'd argue pybro is pure support, every class role is going to involve elements of power or pick, so it's more useful to categorize those if they're exemplary in those roles whereas support is somewhat more rare. (which the chart shows in the end pretty clearly) In this case Pyro is primarily dedicated themselves to buzzing around something or someone they want to defend, usually sentry nests, and making it difficult to attack it.
I think i'd also kick Battle Engie to Support/Power, it's definitely not what you'd imagine as a power class, but I envision pick classes as classes that have tools to run into a situation and cut a specific target down easily - battle engie is very limited to what he can double team with his sentry unless he has FJ crits on tap, but I do think he qualifies as "power" to at least some degree.
I think the nature of TF2 also just limits what can and can't be a "power class", given that they kind of need at least reasonable killing power and staying power all the same - which is why I can see the argument for Demoknight being pick-power
Why is there just random cow grooming footage lmaoo anyway another banger video
as far as gunspy goes I've always thought of it more focused on the dead wringer than the revolver playstyle wise, with it giving you a reactive option to use in combat. essentially just playing spy fast, engaging with your team using revolver instead of trying to get behind enemies while acting mostly alone and using invis or feign to reposition or disengage, the damage reduction and later speed boost of the dead ringer was a big help for that
also battlemedic if you consider it more about selfish play (rather than not healing people because you think its funny) can get a lot out of vaccinator, the easiest medigun by a long way to use selfishly (outside of two meds uberchaining). charges quickly if you put some healing out in downtime or land an Ubersaw and the bubbles can really let you engage on opponents
This was a pretty cool video, I haven't seen anyone really talk about this before. If you decide to do a part two (because there are still plenty more subclasses even under your rules, Charged-Shot Soldier and Hoovy come to mind), I personally would like to nominate the Dragon's Fury Pyro, as while the playstyle may look similar from an outside perspective, it actually differs rather substantially when you look a bit deeper. Notably, it trades a massive amount of Pyro's support effectiveness for an equally massive increase in power, which is normally something that Pyros tend to struggle with due to to the extremely limited range and and sub-par damage output of the flamethrower.
Additionally, a note on Gunspy, it HAS been a thing for a long time, it was just mostly focused on the Ambassador prior to its nerf. People only started using stock because they stopped using the Amby after JI and realized "Oh hey, this thing is actually surprisingly powerful if you can consistently land your shots with it."
I must say, please acknowledge dragon's fury Pyro (I like to call it 'Pyro cannon') as a subclass. I think it categorizes as Power. 'Pyro cannon' is dragon's fury Pyro with a flare gun of one's choice as well as the powerjack. 'Pyro cannon' focuses on offence over spy checking and is very different to a normal flame thrower. The dragon's fury can bust down sentry nests extremely fast and is on-par with the power of a Soldier or Demo.
'Pyro cannon' is a sub-class that takes skill and practice to turn pyro into an offensive powerhouse.
God I love this channel
thank you for the subclass logos! i think thats actually rly neat
2 uploads on one day? We’re eating good💯
Amby mains: i'm afraid not 16:30
Think it's so funny you mentioned sticky tank, because I just played it for the first time yesterday
Great pictures for each subclass btw
I found a new sub-class.Piss sniper,which includes The Sidney Sleeper+Jaraty+The Bushwaka.
I like playing battle medic with the amputator. I heal a big group, then neglect them until the next cover we find
now that the gas passer allows for wet enemies on demand, I'd say that noble pyro (which is pyro shark with the gas passer) is all 3, as his flamethrower has good aoe damage, the neon gives massive single taget damage and the gas passer still works as a decent support tool
Can't believe Demopan isn't featured smh
i would say that battle engie is actually power support and not pick support because you don't really go for picks you go and fight on the front line. I also think pybro is all 3 mostly because i don't think it matters what flame thrower you are using, pyro is a power class he can deal lots of damage to groups and thats for every flame thrower, pybro can be the best of the three worlds cause you can have your flame thrower for power, one of the flare guns for pick, and then the homewrecker for support (it also makes it so pyro can deal with building without needing the dragons fury)
i remember playing sticky tank but not knowing the name for it at the time. i just thought it was cursed as hell that i was using the booties with the scottish resistance specifically lol
Grenade Launcher Demoman subclass
16:49 I like how all but one of them are a form of Pick.
My favourite psuedo-subclass is Skrumpyknight. Prove your worth while downing a bottle the entire time. Essentially: "I'm drunk, you don't have an excuse!"
I'd say that, if you change weapons, it's a subclass, if you exclude weapons, it's a mindset.
okay well if gun spy and pyroshark can be subclasses then melee heavy (bison steak + a melee of your choice, usually either fists of steel or holiday punch depending on the situation) can be too. It is genuinely a very effective way of playing (especially if you're good with effective pathing). I would personally put it in the pick category
also i personally like the playstyle of caber jumper (sticky jumper + caber + a grenade launcher of your choice, in my case it is the loose cannon) which is actually quite good on maps with high ceilings like koth maps (especially suijin and harvest, both because of the high ceiling, but also due to the lack of too many tall props and the overabundance of overly confident sniper and spy players)
the neon annihilator can remove sappers, so pyroshark can be support I guess if some engineer decided to build their nest next to a water source?
Even if I disagree a lot with your videos you always atleast provide interesting content, and that's no exception. Realy bewildering video ngl, I get(or I think I do) the logic behind why you think pyro shark is a subclass worthy, but if that's the case, why isn't there piranha scout subclass? Because atomizer can let scout be strong underwater in same way neon sign lets you and yet he's not on the list, and yet there's *milk boy?* Cmon maaan, are we really using secondary unlocks to define a class? 😅
Remember majority of classes, if not all 9, are defined by their primaries(Engy, Medic, Spy are exceptions but they're defined by one weapon still, it's just not called primary). If banner soldier is subclass worthy then is shotgun soldier subclass worthy? See why most people define subclasses by primaries? 😅
Only real big critique is you missing out on real subclasses like Dragon Fury Pyro, cmon, you literally go from inconsistent flames to strong projectile this ought to make a new subclass no? 🥺
Gun spy is people who wanted to play sniper, but didn't want to shoot in le head, and saw that revolvers are more efficient than noscoping, and way more fun than waiting 2-3 seconds in between hs with the Sydney Sleeper. (Also, the revolver is a decent weapon, not the main point of spy though, as sniper is better than him at picking with a gun.)
From experienve:
The best battle medic playstyle is to carry something that can heal someone really quickly so you can both then continue shooting the enemy. So probably the quick fix.
Kritz also has the taunt that heals you, can surprisingly save you at times.
Any primary really works but it depends on what you want to accomplish.
Base syringe gun is decently reliable, just like the blutsauger.
The crossbow is long ranged, deals a great deal of damage and can heal in a pinch.
Overdose gets slandered a lot but it's not a bad weapon. Having uber and getting that speed boost can either help you close or widen the gap between enemies, but it's definitely the weaker choice still.
Stock melee is a great choice.
Ubersaw is better if you're going with overdose.
The Vow allows you to pick fights more easily because you can see their health.
The other melee are not as useful sadly.
And experience from gun spy:
Any revolver works, but most people will get more reliable damage from any other weapon that isn't the amby. The most useful one is probably diamond. Get some saps and backstabs when possible, then pull out your pocket rifle and kill everything.
After all, you are still a spy, if an opportunity appears, you should take it.
As for the knife, definitely spycicle. If a pyro hugs you, ut can give you a second small chance.
Dead ringer serves the same purpose really.
As for the sapper... I know this sounds bad but red tape recorder. If you disguise yourself and quickly sap a sentry, there's a chance you may survive the damage from a level 2 or 1, it gives you a bit more breathing room.
Spycicle turns you into a pyro DELETER. Some braindead W+M1 pyro walks into you and you can just decimate them with damage ramp up
The definition for subclass has always been very wishy-washy but i do think there is a fine line between a playstyle/just a loadout and a subclass, i don't know the criteria either so its somewhat based on my opinion but i dont think stuff like banner soldier, bonk boy, sticky tank, combo pyro, gun spy, and roamer count as subclasses but simply just peoples playstyles.
This makes me wonder if there should be more Support and Power Subclasses in TF2.
I don't agree that you didn't add piss sniper.But good video after all.
the lonqudor intro made me have my qudor become lon
As a gun spy main can confirm, we do use knives too.
What I do when I play gun spy is that I usually hang around my team more, trying to deal damage with my revolver and help them push, but I do sometimes just disappear from my team in order to get a few stabs.
The main difference being that gun spy spends less time trying to get that pick and more time just dealing damage with their revolver. A good way you can go about it is if your team is holding a ground or is pushing, but you can see that the push is gonna fail or that the enemy team will take that space away, you can just cloak away and wait till the enemy pushes up to stab them in the back.
if you gun people as a spy near your teammates then just play any other class
@@Astareia7312 But I wanna play spy.
@@gehrillagaming6172 Play better spy aka sniper XD
@@Astareia7312 Lol, fair. Just make sure you won't get mad the next time I quickscope you :D
@@gehrillagaming6172 gl with that when i'll bomb-rush you as a scout
I'm really glad to see someone talk about this. I've always defined subclasses by how they change the classes position in the pick, power, support dynamic. Anything that doesn't actually change that is at best a playstyle.
I fully get the roamer hate. Genuinely that role seems tk attract a special kind of basement dweller who always has a vac or crit medic girlfriend. Just unpleasant to fight against and disruptive ti the game flow. Random medium health class in your backline with far too much ability to engage and disengage at a moments notice and considerable damage outpit plus the ability to push you around. Annoying bastard.
Demoknight is just a blunt tanky spy, just as much a pick.
some additions id like to implement are the Combat Medic and Artillery soldier subclasses. Now yes, combat medic is different than battle medic - difference is combat medic actually *fucking HEALS* his teammates only choosing to engage in fights in self defense or to close out a fight that is simply taking too long, that ones going in pick-supp.
Artillery Soldier on the other hand (CM5K+BB) I'd argue to be all 3 because yes you're likely going to be picking off random players at sniper ranges but you're also doing 170 dmg in one shot to potentially multiple people and once you have banner, if you do choose, you can rush in and destroy everyone's asses or just continue to hang back but spam regular cow mangler shots now mini-crit boosted by the BB.
So... they are just Normal Medic and Soldier w/ Banner, basically
@@magnum78923 well no cuz normal medics run the crossbow, combat medic uses syringe gun. and if you'd wanna simplify it like that i could say that trolldier is soldier with a shovel... when ya simplify it it doesn't sound like much but then again thats all subclasses. demo w/ sword, heavy w/ shotgun, spy w/ gun. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@TMCRGaming ...no, let me rephrase it. Normal medics just run the crossbow because it's the best in generalized use. Even if they ran the syringe gun, medic is still medic: he heals, buffs and ubercharges teammates. These are the crux of the class. You can choose 'not' to do those things, but the class remains the same. Battle medic is a meme, but it isn't a subclass. And no, i'm not simplifying it. Trolldier IS a subclass because he can't do what a regular soldier does- he is strictly a pick subclass.
You just became Stampy 0.5 seconds
Battle engie isn’t specifically based on loadout, you can have a battle engineer without the gunslinger but that’s different in it’s own right.
Sticky tank/sticky knight is so underrated. It's not better than pipes but the ability to bomb more and have scarier crit ubers is amazing. BTW sticky tank and sticky knight are technically different subclasses. If the boots offered some form of blast resistance it might actually be viable or at the very least have a niche.
I'd wager Battlemedic also having the potential of being insanely powerful, when über-chaining with another Medic.
12:08 I actually like the waiting for the prey, makes the kill as the more worth it.
*_DEAR GOD, IT'S ALL JUST PICK_*
If you can't aim the melee with speed and bleed. The sun on a stick miiiiiight help with encountering pyros since a single particle either way will kill your boost but the son on a stick (s.o.a.s) has a chance at being useful for it.
Noone ever recognises beggars solly for what he do
There is bing soys pyroshark which uses airblast to force opponents into water insteaf if just waiting
0:12 Battle engy is way more of a playstyle, Huntsman is a better subclass representation imho.
Speed and bleed? I just call it the period scout
That’s the worst thing I’ve ever heard
@@Lonqudor I know I’m sorry
Funny enough I am both a Huntsman and Gunspy player.
I love the huntsman because you can spam arrows and get some easy kills,
As for gunspy sure it can be hard to get some easy kills but I feel happy whenever I kill a Pyro with a gun
I always want to try and be a battle engineer which I normally play on community servers so I could use different weapons for him that actually work
Demoknight is like special ed scout, definitely more pick then power but definitely still powery
You're gonna be doing WHAT TO THE ENEMIES?!1?!? ( 8:43 )
Part 2 ?
Pisssniper
-Sydney Sleeper
-Jarate
-Bushwacka
Demoro
supportive demoman, kills spy and protects metics.
-Loose Cannon
-Chargin' Targe
-Half-Zatoichi
H.K.T=Hybid knight tank.
-Iron Bomber
-Chargin' Targe
-Half-Zatoichi
This is rather a simple playstyle change
Seriously he sounds like strampylonghead!
OBVIOUSLY gun spy is a power class! (if you have a kritz medic backing you up) (ive been that medic and cleared servers)
First off, i was expecting the video to be about using categorization to DEFINE what should be a subclass, not ranking them on a pie chart. Even though it makes less sense, i'd make the title say "rank" so there's no confusion. (or show the chart in the thumbnail)
Second, you didn't explain what the categories mean in any capacity before getting into it. (which is weird considering there's a section of video called "categories explained". I was so confused when you were putting sticky tank in support, because it doesn't buff anything, so i have no idea what it means yet
i love how everybody gobjobs on the claidheamh mor due to how ridiculous the amount of consonants there is, I Always pronounced it as Claid'ham'or
i can push past chokes entirely on my own (half zatoichi and an extreme amount of luck) but demoknight is a pick class
id call stickytank a stickyknight dont ask why
What about a dragons fury pyro
Because he is changed from an area denial to a offensive class
Where is Dragon fury pyro?
Hi I am one of those people who will disagree with some subclasses, banner soldier I don’t say is a subclass because his play style doesn’t vary too far from “stock” play style, air strike and roamer are more play style, air strike is less
Team fortress 2 only has 5 subclasses: Trolldier, Dragon's fury pyro, demoknight, gunslinger engineer and huntsman sniper.
Everything else is just the same class, the same class but played with gimmicks or in an arbitrary way.
You know, we need to know a difference between subclass and playstyle. Most of them are just playstyles. The only subclasses here are demoknight, troldier, maybe huntsman and battle engine, but the last to are arguable.(they don't change their gameplay that drastically). Others are just playstyles. Like banner soldier is just using his unlockable, fat scouts just handicapping themselfs for fun and gunspy just use his damn primary more often. These can't be considered as subclasses.
I by no means offending the author, just bringing my opinion.
It’s funny that you say that, because it kind of proves my point in the beginning. I personally do not consider using the Huntsman to be a subclass, it’s one weapon change, with a rather different playstyle, but nowhere near as different as others like Demoknight or Troldier.
We as a community really cannot agree on what a subclass is. I did include several “subclasses” on my list that I personally wouldn’t think are subclasses, but there would be outrage if I didn’t include them. Like the Huntsman.
You are right in that I probably should have gone into greater depth about the subject
Like I said in another comment, I think a subclass is a loadout that makes the player unable to fulfill their class' original role. A trolldier for example, cannot fight like a normal soldier does, their rockets do no damage, but a pyroshark can leave the water and pull out their flamethrower to be a normal pyro, and a gun spy...can just use the rest of his loadout
@@-RandomStranger- imo subclasses should be defined from a third person pov- if i see a fat scout on my team or my enemies i'm going to play around them very differently from if i see a heavy, so fat scout or roamer are subclasses whereas something like bleed scout wouldn't be
@@Lonqudor so, you include all of these just to not enrage the community? Yeah, as long as I know it, this is reasonable. I am going to answer to your comment and comment below: I suppose subclass can be defined by a single weapon, that changes playstyle drastically. For example: demoknight can be defined by using shield. Hybrid knight is still demoknight because he uses shield, just different playstyle of his. Stickytank is still demoman, even with booties and eyelander, just because he doesn't use the shield.
Troldier is also like this. He can be all stock or even direct hit user, as long as his main source of damage is market gardener, he should be considered troldier. The variation of other weapons should be considered as playstyle of such subclass. Same with engine and gunslinger.
Huntsman sniper on other side, while technically has one defining weapon, that changes his playstyle, hardly can be considered a subclass because he is, well, still sniper. Just more aggressive. You know, giving how spammy and luck based it's arrows, he should be pick-power lol. I hope I give my point on subclasses.
Btw, brass beast or Natasha heavy with dalokosh bar effect can tank a fully charged huntsman headshot.
@@-RandomStranger- hello. I gave my subclass definition in the comment to Lonqudor. You can read it and share your opinion.
this is a video of all time
I’m the milkman my milk is delicious
battle engie is a mindset
My ranks:
Demo Knight: Pick
Hybrid Knight: Pick/Power
Sticky Tank: Power
Demoflight: Pick
Roamer: Power/Support
Trolldier: Pick
Banner Soldier: Power/Support
Paratrooper: Power
Beggars Bazooka: Power
Shortstop/Milk Man: Power/Pick/Support
Bonk Boy: Power/Pick
Speed N’ Bleed: Power
Melee Scout: Pick
Pyro Shark: Pick/Support
Pybro: Support
Melee Pyro: Pick
Combo Pyro: Power/Support
Flank Pyro: Pick
Phlog Canceller: Power
Dragon’s Fury: Power
Hoovy: Support
Fat Scout: Power
Boxer: Power/Pick
Defense Heavy: Support/Power
Offense Heavy: Power/Support
Battle Engineer: Power
Ninjaneer: Pick/Power
Battle Medic: Power/Support
Amputator: Support
Huntsman: Power/Pick
Bushwacka Synergy: Pick
Gun Spy: Power
7:49 people play ROAMER SOLDIER not because they are the Gods of the game but because he is VERY FUN TO PLAY, I am not surprised that you think that he isn't because you are a heavy main.
Why does the beginning sound like stamps
80% of these aren't subclasses
9:15 wasn’t that called mosquito scout?
I gotta say I agree with the definition of what a subclass is, however it pains me watching contradict the definition itself immediately stating pyroshark is a subclass giving that none of the other weapons synergizes (idk if that's correctly spelled) with the neon sign
I basically had two definitions of what I thought a subclass was. I believe Pyroshark to be a legitimate subclass as it gives Pyro a completely an utterly unique fighting style in a very specific situation, water.
Pyro’s flamethrowers do not work underwater. This subclass counteracts that very small niche weakness of his, which is why I think it is a real subclass. Something like the back scratcher, for example, fixes no niche weakness of Pyros whilst also encouraging a unique style. I don’t consider that a subclass because it does not tick two boxes.
15:37 You know playing gun spy doesn't mean throwing your knife away, you could've backstabbed that heavy because there is no way you will be able to gun him down before he kills you, john is very disapointed in you
I don't really think banner soldier is a subclass???
technically, by your criteria on what is and isnt a subclass, spyro (pyro with a backscratcher) is a subclass, because you play pyro as a spy.
Caber demo is a sublass both as demoknight or combined with sticky jumper and base jumper a shame its not ranked 😢
I’m surprised that most tf2 subclasses are mostly pick classes. I was kinda of hoping for the subclasses to be more diverse rather than a pick class most of the time.
the only thing that needs to be changed is battle medic should be a pick power and support
He sounds like mumbo jumbo
Обожаю сабклассы, спасибо за ролик :)