Update: my gaming content will be on my 2nd channel: ua-cam.com/users/TPhGames (at least some LotR related gaming videos will still be posted here on the main channel though) If you have further questions, feel free to ask =) How is your point of view? Do you think, they maybe went a bit far with story shown in the Shadow of War trailer? Or do you see it as an interesting spin-off?
I live the thought of talion running around weakening the defences of sauron in his own revenge story while aragorn, frodo, Gandalf ect all deal the final blow in destroying the ring.
I love the auto-captions in this video. They're telling me that Kelly Rimbaud, the L, did not go to the hall of mondays after he died, but rather fused with an Italian to become a race, and this is the plot of the hit game, Cheddar of Model.
haha, I know there are many mistakes in it. Well somebody in the comments asked for subtitles and so I enabled them. I looked over them a bit and corrected a lot of stuff, but there are so many elvish names + my imprecise pronunciation and you end up with this mess :D I can imagine, it's quite funny.
A fun fact: sauron and balrogs are "siblings". They are all maiar who have gone to the dark side to support morgoth. Moreover, all the 5 wizards are siblings to them too as they are maiar as well.
maiar have no parents or children, and as the valar are referred to as siblings a few times in the silmarillion, i think it's fair that the same applies to the maiar.
They are all the "children" of eru illuvatar and created in the same moment, so they are siblings, the difference is: Valar came first and created the world, after that there came the Maiar, Balrogs and also Ungolianth. There are many of them who never came to this world and have no names because of that. By the way: At least one Maiar has a child. Luthien Tinuviel is the daughter of the Maiar Melian. Thats why she shines of power like the Noldor even when she could't have be in Valinor at the time of the two trees when the elves of Valinor got their strenght from their light.
Nope. Balrogs were created by the Dark Lord Melkor. While it is true that Melkor is a Valar (Archangel of sorts) the lesser angels weren't created by Archangels but by god. But yes, Sauron is a brother of the other wizards, and if you want a fun fact then the reason for the friendship between Gandalf and the eagles is that Gandalf is the champion of Manwë, King of the Valar and Lord of the Wind.
Afaik, when Melkor has gone to the dark side so to speak, Sauron as well some of the Maiar did the same and joined him thus becoming balrogs. I've never heard that Balrogs were created by Melkor (Morgoth).
I always look at it likes it’s a separate timeline where his stuff is possible, if you look at it through the lens of a Tolkien purist you’ll hate it, but if you take it for what it is, you’ll have an amazing time because who doesn’t want to play as a ranger of Gondor absolutely tearing through orcs
Yes agreed. I still thought a comparison video would be interesting (it was marketed as very lore friendly, same as Shadow of War) and I think from my perspective it was a good decision to make it too ^^ (it was my "break through" video on YT you could say and shifted my channel towards Tolkien content). I think I sound a bit too negative in the video. Game wise I liked palying Shadow of Mordor. Surprising good game.
ThePhilosophersGames oh I agree for the longest time I had no idea how it got in and I found out It didn’t after playing through Shadow of Mordor. I keep it as headcannon though most of the time because I like to think that’s what Sauron didn’t move on the free peoples earlier than he did was because he was dealing with Talion, it kinda gives me a reason why he didn’t just steamroll a weekend Gondor
@@ThePhilosophersGames shadow of Mordor has plenty of lore respect some runes have em even upgrades but. it was dropped with the badass gear oh well being a Nazgul makes it cooler
in shadow of mordor celebrimbor raised an orc army, used mind control, and possessed the ring of power for a while, using the power for evil deeds. in middle earth doing anything "unnatural" was a terrible thing. mind control, even just for uruks, would be a huge offence. could that not make him evil enough? saruman was also against sauron, because he was planning to betray him, it didn't make him any less evil.
Yes, the domination would be considered evil. I think in the video I made the argument, that Fëanor murdered other elves (kin-slaying) to reach his goals and was still granted access to the halls of Mandos. But you have a point. Saruman allied with Sauron at one point and build an army for him. So he was actively working together with Sauron. Celebrimbor at least didn't do that.
I've long been of the opinion that Shadow of Mordor started off as an original IP telling the story of a conflict between a "Dark Lord" and a "Bright Lord" who were each as bad as the other. It's only after Monolith pitched the idea to their Warner Bros overlords that it got saddled with the Middle Earth license. I suspect that the way Celebrimbor and Sauron mirror each other in the game (both can control orcs, both need hosts to interact with the physical world and so on) is an artifact of that initial concept.
In the games it's actually a bit blurred if Talion really died or not. He's been called a dead man quite often...then another thing that was said a few times is that he's "banished" from death, which i assume would mean he never went to the Halls of Mandos after he "died" and "merging" with Celebrimbor had a similar effect to a ring of power, turning him into a wraith...or half wraith as the game says. The canon lore however does not say if this is possible or it even says it is not possible. Well, the time differences are still the most obvious...plot hole? Well that and Celebrimbor's story... What a shame...i f*cking loved the story of the games...
@Anthony Johnson Of course they do. But remembering what happened to the Witch-king of Angmar and Glorfindel's prophecy regarding his end makes it important to differentiate between "man" and Hobbit in my opinion when talking about Tolkien's universe.
@Anthony Johnson I disagree, Talion could have easily passed on to see his wife and son in Shadow of Morder, but he made the selfless choice to not go and continue his fight to keep the forces of Mordor at bay, even after Celebrimbor betrayed him. He did so for centuries until he succumbed to the powers of Isildurs ring. I know the game ain't canon, but this is just my opinion.
:D Yes it's interesting that Lord of the Rings and Star Wars have some parallels (I also made a video about this, but only considering the classic trilogy).
I'm not a very knowledgeable LOTR fan and had just finished Shadow of Mordor and was interested in how they fit among the Cannon lore. I enjoyed the video. It seems Tolkien didn't know how big LOTR would become, I get why they took creative freedoms and I'm glad they did.
Thank you, happy you liked it =) Yes, a very good observation. The legend says, Tolkien when he was not that famous, needed some money and so he sold a movie and merch license for Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit (I think in the 60s; btw. not for the Silmarillion), but he couldn't imagine, that it was possible to actually make movies. Based on this license everything we have is created. But the Tolkien family (Tolkien Estate, not to get confused with Tolkien Enterprises or as they are now called Middle-earth Enterprises, who only have movie and merch rights), esp. his son Christopher Tolkien, is not hat happy about it. So there are still lawsuits going on as far as I know. e.g. if the license includes rights to make video games, etc. Christopher Tolkien hates the movies, I can understand that to a certain degree. So yes, he never thought it would be that big, nor that the movies would have such an impact or success.
ThePhilosophersGames Christopher hates literally everything cept the Lord of the Rings War in the North game cause it's mega book service over movie service and the story was very much like the books over the movies. It was a pretty good game tbh but it was a bit lacking in gameplay.
As far as the Peter Jackson films are concerned, I think the Shadow games fit rather nicely at least. I would have liked to see Legolas or even Aragorn make a cameo. That would have been cool.
Uh Shelob in goth human form? Nah, she simply was just a hungry monster that Sauron left alone to guard Mordor's secret passages. And Isildur and Helm Hammerhand being ring wraiths is BS too.
@@FatGouf The ''goth human form'' was prolly to attract the majority gamer fanbase, which is mostly male players. It's a good attraction strategy, so I guess they weren't shy about stretching it a bit.
@@FatGouf The rationale is that one of her parents could take a human form as well. Sure, that’s not true for the Legendarium, but there’s no reason it can’t be true for the Jacksonverse.
That’s how I view it as well. JRR and Christopher’s works are the main canon, but Peter Jackson’s universe can play fast and loose with details derived from the main canon.
11:50 there's the thing called "arogorn's pants". if something isn't mentioned in the source material, it doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. second, Kelebrimbor's motivation behind forging a new ring of power was out of pride. he was eager to fix his mistakes by making the new ring pure and untouched by Sauron. in the end the new ring ended up corrupted by the greed, jealousy and hate of Kelebrimbor himself, it wasn't an actual 10th ring of power, but just a manifestation of his own personal quest. also, he certainly can't interact with the material realm without the help of Talion. about Talion - he never died, so never visited the Halls of Mandos until the very end of the game, along with other nazgûl. the game fits pretty well into the more loose canon, if you don't take every single word of Silmarillion for the undebatable absolute truth. sometimes canon can be bent slightly, it doesn't really have that much of a lasting effect. also, all of this that i said does not relate to the excruciatingly immense gaping holes that the second game teared down with the appearance of Allatar and Kelebrimbor in the vision of Hammerhand becoming nazgûl. of course, Rohan didn't exist in the 2nd age. that vision must be a metaphor or something. i don't like the representation of the plot of Shadow of War, but i adore its concept, so i always advocate in its favor. the Grave Walker is one of my favorite Tolkien-related characters EVER, so that is that.
Thank you for clarifying a lot of stuff here, I just recently played both games this year. I have to say though, in spite of the fact they are not "lore-friendly" in terms of plot, the games still tell an amazing tale from start to finish. I don't have any big issue with the fact that it tells it's own interpretation of events, characters, even the creatures are different (e.g. Uruks replace Orks, Shelob can transform into a human, and Celebrimbor is a very grey character etc). It certainly doesn't try to step on any of the events in the Hobbit and LOTR movies or books.
Yes agreed. I liked the game and it tells a lot of correct lore too and let people dive deeper into it than most other LotR games. Ofc the main plot takes a lot of freedom, but the game is fun to play and a lot of other things work lore wise. I also have a video for Shadow War: ua-cam.com/video/Y-gvR7ioJjA/v-deo.html
The thing I've always thought of with these lotr games is let them be made. Although I thought Lucas made some mistakes with Star Wars one I praise him for is to let others add to the canon or make their own stores in alternate worlds. I always harken back to myths or epics like Beowulf. They were not made with one person writing a story, they were many people telling many different stories weaving them together to make what was remembered. While I think Tokien was a genius and made an amazing story and world. I also personally don't think that world should have a fence around it forever. Whose to say letting others tell their own tales in this world wouldn't make it better, and if they don't tell perfect or good tales, so what. Just because someone wrote something you don't enjoy, it doesn't ruin what Tolkien wrote, too much people seem to think a black mark will ruin the beauty of LOTR, but look at other stories like Star Wars and Harry Potter, they have both had recently bad reviewed movies that are canon and it hasn't ruined peoples enjoyment of the worlds that those movies existed in.
I think when it comes to Tolkien, people study his works and the making of it more than Star Wars, probably because he worked for so long on it and there is a lot of Philology in it. Lucas had for sure ideas for his universe, but it was bigger and more open. Tolkien tried to write a very detailed mythology, where every details is interconnected and referenced, so small mistakes create problems in consistency. A problem I assume Tolkien encountered himself and could not fully solve in his lifetime (like the Orc origin). Ofc the game does not ruin Tolkien, but they at least advertised it with fitting to the books, but that is not true, because some dates already contradict the timeline. So my intention was to show these differences for people who are interested in this topic. In addition (I notice that to even within myself) hardcore fans can get very defensive and annoyed when things are not fitting the lore. I guess it has to do with the passion for Tolkien's work ans what it means to us.
@@ThePhilosophersGames I really think you should look into old star wars legends to see how a story line can really flourish if allowed to flower. Things such as the rakata infinite empire are just super interesting things that don't effect the main plot or messages, but add more interesting parts to the world of starwars. certainly LOTR and star wars are very different in nature and what works for one won't work for others, but still, legends has some of the best stories to really dive into because people really could run with it. purists, no matter how good the source content often doesn't allow growth and renovation for a larger story to be told. imagine if someone had been able to tell a story of the 4th age, tolkien has started writing on the cults and strange mysteries of the post Sauron world and lost interest, it would be very interesting had someone been allowed to make their own take on the story, or perhaps the men from the east to would have been a great story to tell without effecting the main LOTR story, make up cultures and histories for these people who served sauron. what im saying is the LOTR universe really had a lot of content that people could have added too, but by keeping it so locked up tight means that potential is lost, for better or worse
Yes definitely, though they were advertised as very book friendly, which is maybe why some fans react a bit triggered to it ^^ (Still had a good time with it)
@@ThePhilosophersGames that's a really good point, looking back at the advertisements they were super trying to push for this being a official part of the lore. But that really does bring up the whole conversation of what is the official lore, as talking himself implied that the books are written by unreliable narrators and even implies that gondorians edited the text. So in the end Lord of the rings Canon is a funny thing.
@@number1Gameking yes canon is often debatable (I guess most agree on the LotR book and The Hobbit with the Second Edition changes being canon), but at least Tolkien wrote those texts himself 😅
Man. It sucks that the games aren't tied to the books, but I still enjoy them both! Maybe one day someone truly committed can make something that ties to the books that everyone can enjoy. I'm learning to be a teacher and it's encouraging to see someone simplify (within reason) something complicated so anyone can pick it up and be up to speed with everything connected to it. Like good food, it attracts good company!
Yes, that would be interesting. There is a Lord of the Rings mod for Mount & Blade Warband, that is relatively faithful to the books (but it's a "sandbox" game though). I also heard good things about Lord of the Rings Online, but I'm not into MMORPGs. It's a bit strange, that there are not games like this. I think the main reason could be, that the movie license holders (Middle-earth Enterprises) want to market their movie franchise further (which also has differences) and Christopher Tolkien & the Tolkien Estate have no interest to make games. Thank you :)
Man I wish a Game Dev like CDPR would make some LOTR games based off the LOTR universe. There are so many different creatures and beast. Exploring in an open world like that would be amazing.
I could try and explain some of these things: 1. Talion/Celebrimbor is a unique brand of undead, and the reason why the Hand of Sauron sacrificed Talion's family as well. Sauron was known as the Necromancer for a time, surely he knows various spells on how to deny the gift of man, especially when done preemptively. As for Celebrimbor, perhaps that was part of his punishment for the betrayal? Sauron is all about dominance and control. Having Celebrimbor's soul ready to be shoved in a vessel should he be needed is right up his ally. 2. Maybe, since Talion's physical body is doing the forging, the language on his ring is actually Westron (usually portrayed as English), but using elvish script. Just like how the One Ring is written in Black Speech using the elvish script.
1. The big problem (book lore wise) is, that Sauron does not have the authority to deny the gift of men or the access to the Halls of Mandos. Not even is master Morgoth could do that, e.g. Morgoth was imprisoned in the Halls of Mandos (for 3 Ages) and could not escape against the will of Mandos. Only Madnos can deny access. Also the Game implies, that Talion and Celebrimbor have access to the halls of Mandos. Necromancy is a bit strange in Lord of the Rings. Some would think it's about having an undead army, but actually it is only about few things: - Communication with wraiths - Limited control over evil spirits (probably fallen Maiar, who were once corrupted). The Barrow wights, it is not known what they are exactly. They are a mystery, but they are most likely no ordinary "souls". Same with the Two Wacthers. - Corruption and transformation of a living being into a undead wraith (Nazgûl), with is noted does not work on dwarves and probably not on elves, only on men and they must be alive. 2. But what is their physical body? Where does it come from ? Talion and Celebrimbor are both dead. Celebimbor also has no super healing powers. The Ring inscription is an interesting point. But it's still strange, that it does not use the proper Tengwar symbols, for the related vowels and consonants ^^
Its still a great game and you can think this as a side thing happening while the lore happening One can think that this Celebrimbor is a piece of his soul that Sauron split to use for his goals its why the Wraith form is so angry and cares more for vengeance Nobody is perfect maybe he wanted Celebrimbor to improve so it would work better on mortals minds cause he is a divine being and his ego made him have less understanding for the lover beings He is not interacting with the physicals world he is using the human body to forge it using his knowledge to forge a ring to counter The One Ring
I like the game as well ^^ I think it's a great game. I mean Talion is also dead and can behave like a spirit himself at times. That's quite inconsistent, esp. in Shadow of War.
In the Shadow of Mordor Appendices, it also states that the Black Hand of Sauron (the game's primary antagonist) MAY have killed the two blue wizards (Pallando and Alatar) and presented their heads to Sauron as a gift. Given that Pallando and Alatar are Istari mariar spirits (roughly comparable to Balrogs in-terms of raw power and fortitude) and the Black Hand is a black Numenorian (a long-lived, strong and powerful human but still mortal), he MAY have been able to defeat one of them but almost certainly not both. At least not simultaneously, that is. However, since we still don't know what happened to Alatar and Pallando, this is just as likely an explanation as any, I suppose. Just a fun fact!
Oh that's an interesting point. I have to say I did not focus much on the collectables and appendix entries in this video (or in the others). But I think they do some quite interesting things there. But I agree with you. The two Blue wizards were kind of work in progress. At the end of J.R.R. Tolkien's life he changed his mind and the concept completely, so that they were quite successful in the east. I copy it from Tolkien Gateway (tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Blue_Wizards): Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.
A few alternative interpretations to SoM could make it more lore friendly (though obviously non-canon). Sauron has the ability to prevent (temporary) people from going to the Halls of Mandos. At least, he does this for his Nazgul. They continue to exist as long as the ring exists and thus stay out of the Halls. Because in the game-lore Celebrimbor voluntarily wields the ring, Sauron might have been able to tie his fate to the ring as he did with the Nazgul. The ending of the Bright Lord DLC seems to imply something of this order. Celebrimbors fate would then have been similar to the Nazgul after they where 'killed' in the river but he would have been unable to gain a new body. Infusing beings with spirits does seem to empower them in Tolkiens world. The Barrow Wights are dead bodies who become quite formidible with a spirit infused in them. Werewolfs are superpowered wolfs with spirits in them. It is not a stretch to assume putting an Elf lord spirit into a dying ranger would empower him as well. However, in the game there seems to be a special power of Celebrimbor that Sauron seeks 'the power of the ringmaker'. This is of course made up for the games.
Yes, that is also what I understood from the Bright Lord DLC. The problem is (from the books perspective), that Sauron does not have the power/authority to negate Mandos' call. The Nazgûl are indeed strange, but they did not directly "die". The men wearing those 9 rings were slowly transformed into this new form, becoming the Nazgûl. The empowering part is correct, but I would argue, that it only works with Maiar or let's say Ainur. Those are spiritual being, that can change their appearance. They are complete with only their spirit. Elves (, men and dwarfs) are not complete with only their spirit on Arda, and so their spirit can't be wielded that easily. Either they go to the halls of Mandos or they haunt the land, without many options of interaction with the physical world, losing all their power. In SoM they treat Celebrimbor like he was a Maiar and not an elf. The element SoM tries to use, are barrow-wights (as mentioned by you). But those are more the exception to the rule and we don't know exactly what they are. They are described as evil spirits, maybe fallen Maiar. Which would make sense.
I know it's a little bit late, but I have a few disclaimers. First, Talion didn't die, he was dying and the merge with wraith put him in a Limbo(frozen state in time) (That is why when he is separated from Celebrimbor, he starts to dying again and not immediately drops dead.). Second, while Sauron was indeed tutoring under Aule, I don't think that he is all-knowing. I believe that small jewelry, such as rings, were invented much later. That is why he involved the help of the Elves. And when he created the One Ring, he still didn't have a "delicate hand" (you can even say he didn't have a "Silver hand") to stabilise it. So he took Celebrimbor in order to do it. Third, in the end Celebrimbor tried to defeat the Deceiver with his own weapon by putting part of his soul in it when he finished. (That is why the Ring burned blue, partly answered to him and even made him invisible to Sauron). But like many other good guys that believed that they could use the instrument of evil without being corrupted, he failed as well. And after his death he, just like Sauron, became formless but alive.
My comparison is based on what is in the books, so keep that in mind. I also had this discussion many times and I appreciate that so many people are passionate about the story of the game and want to make it work inside Tolkien's universe. But it simply does not work. The biggest argument is, that if Elves could really give humans super powers like that, this wold have been done in the First Age. There were many battles were powerful Men and Elves were killed together and the elves spirits could have just possessed the dying Men and make them an unstoppable force to defeat Morgoth's armies. That is not what happened. Celebrimbor can't help with the One Ring, because we know he died in Eregion, when Sauron and his Orcs attack. it would be strange to take Celebrimbor prisoner in Eregion, while attacking Eregion and Eriador, already having the One Ring and then bringing him to Mordor to "update" the One Ring and then bring him back to Eregion and kill him there. "Concerning the Three Rings Sauron could learn nothing from Celebrimbor; and he had him put to death. But he guessed the truth, that the Three had been committed to Elvish guardians: and that must mean to Galadriel and Gil-galad. In black anger he turned back to battle [in Eregion]; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung upon a pole, shot through with Ore-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond." Note how Sauron here has to take care of Elrond's army. This war was an ongoing conflict that resulted in conquering almost all of Middle-earth. Eregion was just th beginning. Sauron can't just leave the battles behind and fiddle around with his Ring in Mordor and fight with Celebrimbor for power for some time there. That premise does simply not work. Sauron does not need Celebrimbor to make the One Ring. He was literally the servant of the "God" of Crafting. There is not need for stabilising. It is his master plan, his invention. the Ring becomes a part of his being. Sauron is a spirit being (an Ainu and one of the Maia). He is a complete being in spirit form, losing his physical form (fana), has some negative consequences for sure here as well, but not on the scale of an Elf or a Human/Men. He can also "wield is will and power into an object. An Elf is not a spirit being. Elves need a body. They also just can't put their "spirit" or "souls" into things, that is not how they work. Having no body and their soul/sprit not going to the Halls of Mandos is a terrible situation for an Elf and might result in them becoming mad spirits. They 100% would not become a super powerful spirit entity that can melt with an Elf or Men and give them super powers. That is not how Tolkien's metaphysics and afterlife works. Dying does not give an Elf super powers, it's bad for them and they need to go to the Halls of Mandos. Slitting someone's throat will without treatment kill a human. As a result Talion dies there. An Elf spirit can't heal you or prevent your death. Forces much more powerful would have a word here. Talion himself is also not fully alive in the game. he is kind of a hybrid. When [spoiler] in Shadow of War Celebrimbo leaves Talion, Talion starts dying again from this slit throat wound -> as a result it was not healed. Fusing with Celebrimbor just seems to put the consequences of being deadly wounded on hold. Why would an Elf spirit be able to do this? It's not a "god" (Valar). The invisibility works by moving somebody into the "Unseen" aspect of Tolkien's world. Sauron as Spirit being lives in that world and can ofc see others there as well. So you can't hide from his eyes using the a Ring.
Souron tourtured calibrimbor, I feel like his methods could have implications on the natural ways of life for any being including elf’s, makeing me think calibrimbors forging of a pure ring could be possible, he is definitely the only one capable of that craft and after he’s lost his body and done so much more to get to the shadow games, and after already in his life makeing better elvin rings, even though still not pure. It just makes sense he would progress to the level he was at eventually. But That being said I’m not sure about the game in its entirety, but I feel calibrimbor has large roles in the future darknesses of the land, and if it isn’t for him crafting more i honestly don’t think the whole story to my understandings that notable, however I haven’t read the books only researched them when needed and went thrugh the games and movies, one last thing I’m trying to get is weather or not souron was destroyed by goloms leap of faith. Cause if he couldent come back eventually I think it also kills the livability of it, idk I think a big part of me wants this universe to be capable of telling endless stories, but the more I’m going into this rabbit hole I’ve never been this lovely quarantine, the more I’m thinking 2 things, 1 it’s just cause the movies and games are diffrent enough that without me looking into the books first it’s just not gonna make sense easy for me until I discover some tad bits I can argue on in the books, and 2 maybe it is just a closed tale
Great video! Thank you for mentioning that Celebrimbor was a good guy. I feel like the only thing that really bugs me about this game is how they decided to portray his morality.
yes I 100% agree! That was also what I disliked most. For me Celebrimbor is a tragic hero, who lost everything. he did not tell Sauron where the last rings were, which is a huge deed in my opinion.
@@ThePhilosophersGamesCelebrimbor WAS a good guy though, he was just corrupted by The One.(which i dont think actually happened, you can correct me on this)
That's all very interesting to me, because I had learned prior to SoM's release that the developers had worked very closely to the Tolkien estate. The developers said that they had worked very hard so that their game didn't contradict any cannon. Their intention was that while the game would never be accepted as cannon, it would be made so that it COULD be considered cannon.
This didn't work well for the main story, but a lot of lore implications in the game are correct and it allows players to probably dive deeper into the lore, than most other games. Not sure about working together with the Tolkien Estate, because I'm pretty sure there is still a lawsuit going on, that includes the Estate disagreeing with making video games with the movie and some product rights (including toys, but not video games) and harming Tolkien's legacy. www.theguardian.com/books/2012/nov/20/tolkien-estate-sues-hobbit-producers
@@ThePhilosophersGames they’re talking about the gambling video games that wb made in the article not the shadow games the worked closely with Tolkien estate with the shadow games then the money grabbing producers made gambling video games with lotr characters
This is an incredibly well thought out video and a brilliant explanation of the lore of Tolkien. I agree with you on many points, such as Sauron not needing any help crafting the Ring and the Dark Lord not being able to conduct a secondary war against Celebrimbor in the time frame given. The only thing I think might be plausible is the wraith scenario. In the Bright Lord dlc of Mordor, Sauron and Celebrimbor are constantly exchanging threats. Sauron says to the elf lord several times he will never walk the Western Shore. In other words, its pretty much stated Sauron cursed Celebrimbor, binding his soul to Mordor with much of his power intact. Part out of revenge, part because he foresaw the soul or 'fea' of the elf lord might prove useful in future. While this curse might not have been accepted by Eru, could it be Sauron as a divine being had enough power himself to make the curse stick? And as for Talion, it could be he never died. But was in the process of bleeding out when Celebrimbor bound himself to the Ranger. This is supported when the two are separated for a short time near the end of the game and Talion starts to die once more. Celebrimbor can only interact with the physical world because he's using Talion as an anchor, working through his body. Might make sense, might not. Still appreciate the games for what they are though. Once again, great video and it would be swell to hear your thoughts. Have a good one!
Thank you for you comment :D Still can't believe I got so many nice and detailed comments here and also so many views. Much appreciated. When Mandos summons a "Soul", nobody (except Eru) can prevent that, not even Sauron. I think it ii was mentioned somewhere, that if even Morgoth (the strongest of the Valar) would enter the Halls of Mandos, he can not leave without Mandos permission, so the Vala Mandos has an incredible authority here. Also, if Sauron or Morgoth were able to prevent others from entering the Halls of Mandos , they would have made use of it in the past. E.g. Glorfindel died, got reincarnated and returned to Middle-earth and for example later saved Frodo.
ThePhilosophersGames Ah well then the only way it makes sense is if Eru did indeed accept the curse. Which I don't see him doing since it came from Sauron and Celebrimbor was a pretty decent guy even if in this story he got seduced by power. The problem with adapting any of Tolkien's work is that its so iron-tight. He really did think up backstory for almost everything. Which is both impressive and a problem at the same time. It drives many content creators up the wall since there's almost no room for new creative ideas. Still I enjoy the games. They're very fun and a cool what-if scenario. Thanks for your feedback and the time you took to respond!
ThePhilosophersGames The Fëa itself can refuse the summons and remain lingering in Middle-earth, then becoming one of the Houseless. Refusing the summons is a sign of taint, and makes them particularly susceptible to the control of Morgoth and Sauron.
Two of the 'one' rings, an OP ring maker and orcs from different parts of England is my understanding of the plot so far (just finished 1st act of the game) , oh and ofc shelob who turns into the actress Kate Beckinsale so as not to scare the crap out of Talion when she's caressing the zombie rangers face. As for Lore, I really like the artifacts they mention, and I think they've made most of those Actually lore friendly.
Yes the artefacts are great, they definitely are some interesting dives into the lore. Shadow of War (compared to Shadow of War) reduced this part a bit though, if I remember correctly, which is a bit of a pity.
I like the Lotr lore and everything surrounding it but its so complicated but this video made it easier to understand somethings so good on you... i love shadow of mordor and shadow of war :) so thnx
Happy you liked it :) Yes LotR lore is indeed a very complex topic ^^ In case you haven't seen it, I also have a detailed video about (only) Shadow of War: ua-cam.com/video/Y-gvR7ioJjA/v-deo.html
Sir I salute for your serious work on this matter as well as your balanced attitude. Like another comment says the Shadow of Mordor/War games are fan fiction but they are the best fan fiction to date really
So, I tried to made SoM series fix with Tolkien’s story: - Remove Golum and Sauron from the game. Move the timeline to the period when Lich King have just returned the Mordor. - Lich King will become the greatest enemy instead Sauron. - Instead crafted all of these Rings, Celebrimbor just crafted three Elf Rings. - Remove any Necromancy and Ressurection from the game. New element of the story: - Instead is a soul which be ressurection, Celebrimbor is a member of Nazgul. Sauron turned him to a Nazgul before use his body as the banner in the war. The Alliance thought he had died while he actually still “ alive”. Although still under Sauron’s control, Celebrimbor still hold some of his mind, thank to some spell he prepared before Sauron had captured him. Understand Sauron’s system of Rings, he is trying to get out of the Sauron’s influence, and revenge again. - in SoM: + Celebrimbor saved Talion, and ordered him finish a series of question to kept him remove One Ring’s influence enough to fight against Sauron force against. + To revenge, both Celebrimbor and Talion refuse return to Hall of Mandos. + Until now, my idea is: Celebrimbor try to made another system of Rings. A group of Nazgul but under another Maia instead Sauron, to fight against Dark Lord. + May be that Maia will be: * Saruman: who have the ambition. Know much about magic and know how to cheat “ Sauron Ring’s influence”, he ready to help when know that Celebrimbor still “ alive”. A group of indepedence Nazgul, but under his influence. That is the great for him. * Balrog: which may be more darker and terrible than even Sauron. * Alatar or Pallando? + With the help of “ that Maia”, Celebrimbor and some cheat. Talion now become the independece Nazgul - who have enough power of Nazgul, but not be influence too much by Sauron. + In the end of SoM, Talion finally released Celebrimbor from Sauron. Talion+ Celebrimbor, now in one “body”, ready to craft their New Nine Rings. - In SoW: + After crafted New Nine Rings, Nazgul Talion/Celebrimbor now give it to their Orcs leader. + The Nazgul War begin, between Talion’s Nazgul and The Eights ( removed Celebrimbor). + Both Talion/ Celebrimbor have to fight against Sauron sometimes, in their mind ( look like Evil Within) ...
Very interesting and excellent presentation, thank you for uploading it! I had given myself an explanation to Celebrimbor's presence in the Shadow of Mordor's alternate timeline, though I knew many, many rules and history were being broken and altered. :) I had read in _Morgoth's Ring_ (very good book) that an Elf's fëa, its spirit, cannot be brought to the Halls of Mandos, but is summoned. This summons, "proceeds from just authority, and is imperative, yet it may be refused." "...Not all of these are kindly or unstained by the Shadow. Indeed the refusal of the summons is in itself a sign of taint." This could possibly insinuate that Celebrimbor refused the summons of Mandos to take revenge on Sauron. That is my weak explanation to the game's story, though I know it to be complete error :) I heartily agree with you when you say that you wish they had taken fewer freedoms! Celebrimbor is one of my very favourite elven characters and he was a very good guy. I enjoyed Shadow of Mordor as a game, but I don't like how they changed his character to be power hungry and desiring revenge so desperately. It really dampens his high, noble spirit that it was. Apologies for the long text. I very much enjoy your videos!
Yes, Morgoth's Ring (History of Middle-earth) has some explanations about Fëa and hröa, but because some of them have no counterpart in the told story or lore in Lord of the Rings, Hobbit, the Silmarillion or even Unfinished Tales I usually ignore them. But I have to admit, that the concept of refusing of the summoning of Mandos makes sense. So I agree, that's definitely a possibility, but I would argue, that even his "crazy" grandfather didn't refuse the summoning and went to the halls of Mandos. Agreed. I would also say, that in SoM and SoW Celebrimbor is much more like his grandfather Fëanor and not like - how I imagine - Celebrimbor.
Indeed and well said, my friend. These games are definitely what we might consider "fan-fiction": interesting and entertaining, but in the end changing too much of Tolkien's universe for our liking. :)
I have a question and since it seems like this video is still pretty active I thought I’d ask here. What happens to hobbits when they die? Men go somewhere unknown. Elves go to valinor and the dwarves wait for the end of the world I believe. But what about hobbits?
Even though I'm a bit late, there is a scene in Shadow of Mordor where Celebrimbor said "Sauron and Saruman both seek for the power of the ringmaker". Monolith might have picked up this in the Story of Shadow of War.
I think the game is supposed to be based in the movie universe. That's why the designs of the characters and creatures are almost identical to the movies. It also explains why the game differs from the books.
Yes it looks like this, but they also marketed it as book friendly. I think that was the reason why I wanted to make this video, because there was some confusion. It was also my first "breakthrough" on YT, so it was a good decision ^^
@@ThePhilosophersGames Yeah I really appreciate your videos and I love to see the comparisons you make. I love the books and the movies and I have always thought that it's impossible for anyone apart from the Tolkeins to make something entirely consistent with the books. Heck even they had trouble with keeping continuity sometimes.
Yes it is probably impossible. Alone the problem, that the film companies and game companies don't own the rights for the Silmarillion and so on. Amazon probably has some extended rights, but it's also just a fraction of what there is.
@@ThePhilosophersGames Yeah I always hear people go on about the rights to the Silmarillion. I always thought since it's directly connected to the lotr it should be fine to use. Very odd how they could only get the rights to the Lord of the rings and the hobbit.
@@wookieezzz2551 Yes Tolkien sold the Film and some merchandise rights of LotR and The Hobbit in the 60s (he needed some money). he thought it was impossible to makes film out of them anyway. However that's the reason why his family/the Tolkien Estate does not own the Film rights for those. Right now they are with a company called Middle-earth Enterprises (formerly known as Tolkien Enterprises). So if you want to show LotR and Hobbit era stuff you need to buy a license from them. The Silmarillion was publish after Tolkien's death also all the other works which were composed/edited by J. R. R. Tolkien's son Christopher Tolkien (who also worked with his father together). And they don't have the rights. It's quite likely that if Tolkien would not have sold his rights in the 60s, we would not have movies or very different ones. Same with the games. Interestingly there was a very long lawsuit going on between the Tolkien Estate and Middle-earth Enterprises and friends, because games are not films and not merchandise. So in the Estate's opinion they don't have the rights to make games at all. But it seems they found an agreement, but we don't know the details. For the Amazon series, Amazaon works together with the Tolkien Estate. So they can't show LotR and Hobbit stuff and it seems they only got a few rights. Must be complicated. Esp. I don't understand how the rights for the appendices work. Middle-earth Enterprises has the rights too, but the Amazon series also uses the Appendices, which is weird. But it can be due to overlapping stories in different works or maybe it's part of an out of court agreement f one of the lawsuits.
The most likely answer to why Celebrimbor wields the power he has in the SoM universe is that his power is directly linked to the One Ring. He wielded the One and used it's powers extensively, forcing his will over orcs he "purified" while growing increasingly more paranoid, ruthless, violent and power-hungry. When Sauron finally killed him, his soul had been stained enough that he was denied the passage to Halls of Mandos and forced to wander Mordor until the One was destroyed. This seems to be the case, for Celebrimbor acts quite coldly to everything, and his powers seem to be drawn from the one, or at least from a memory of it's power. A power to dominate minds and bend them to your will is pretty much the description of the One.
I would say, even if the One Ring is destroyed, this will not redeem Celebrimbor, if his deeds would deny him access to the Halls of Mandos. This would be an eternal thing. Also he fought against Sauron and his grandfather and uncle's did comparable things (e.g. murdered the Teleri elves to steal their ships, so they could sail to Middle-earth for revenge against Morgoth) and they got not denied access to the Halls of Mandos - ofc they were not allowed to reincarnate. In the SoM (and I guess in teh SoW) story Celebrimbor becomes more and more like another version of Sauron. The devs wanted to show what would happen, if someone like Galadriel, Saruman or Gandalf would have taken the One Ring.
Ok im replaying the games and i found something that looks minor but could be huge. When picking up a gondorian artifact(rudder) at Nurn the voice, i forgot the lady's name wonders if it was a slave who used it or a HUNGARIAN corsair. That to me is either an oversight or whoever is behind the game wants to say that the real world somehow exists in Tolkiens world and people know about it.
Yes really looks like an oversight, though Arda is supposed to be a mythological version of earth far in the past. There is even a story written by Tolkien where an Anglo-Saxon man (Ælfwine) from the 10th century sails over the ocean and finds the straight road and goes to Aman (Tol Eressëa) meeting the Elves and learning the lore from them. So there is a real world connection between Tolkien's universe and the real world, but the real world lies far in the future, so Hungarian corsairs make no sense.
The timeline and the travels would work, if Sauron captures Celebrimbor and his family in Eregion instead of killing him. After the War of the Elves and Sauron has concluded, the events of the game happen. In the game, Celebrimbor is forced by Sauron to forge the one ring. The creation of the one ring would thus take place after the war. The realization that Annatar is Sauron what the ring of power are intended for could still take place before this war. I do not know whether the canon states that the one ring already existed at the time of this war. From the game perspective, the reason why all sources state that Sauron created the one ring alone is that Celebrimbor is not heard of again after war until Talion's story starts. Celebrimbor can therefore not tell his story. It is thus believed that Sauron killed him in Eregion and forged the one ring himself. In the game, I believe that when the one ring was created, not only the live and faith of Sauron but also that of Celebrimbor were tied to the one ring. For this reason, Celebrimbor's spirit did not enter the Halls of Mandos. His spirit is bound to the one ring. In the game lore, we further see Celebrimbor wield the one ring in a full-out assault on Sauron without succumbing to Sauron's influence. Any normal elf would immediately become a puppet of Sauron while doing so. This is only possible if Celebrimbor has a very special relation with the one ring. His spirit being bound to the one ring would be such a relation. In the canon, we see Sauron affect the minds of living beings and influence the physical world while being in spirit form. He is able to do this because his life is bound to the one ring. If we accept that Celebrimbor's spirit is also bound to the one ring, it is not far stretched to believe that Celebrimbor could do the same. This is how Celebrimbor can interact with Talion and keep him from dying. Another argument brought up in the video is that book Celebrimbor is too good of a guy to do all the evil things that game Celebrimbor does. It is possible and even likely that Celebrimbor being bound for thousands of years to Sauron via the one ring will leave some lasting effects. Accepting that Celebrimbor has been corrupted this way, it is plausible that his motive has become to replace Sauron. To do this, he would have to take full and sole control of the one ring. As he cannot banish Sauron from the one ring, he decided to go another path: Create a new ring of power and bind his, and only his, live to that ring. If Celebrimbor now managed to somehow throw the one ring into the fires of mount doom, he would effectively have taken Sauron's place for good. This answers the question in the video about why Celebrimbor would want to create a new ring. Finally, one critic from the video is that Celebrimbor is but an elf and Sauron is a powerful Maiar. It is therefore implausible that they could wield a similar amount of power. The real question here is how much power Sauron got from being a Maiar and how much he got from the ring magic. If the ring magic was his main source of power, then this could be replicated the by a mere elf. I think this addresses all the plot holes described in the video. :) However, I do believe that there are some other plot holes. For example, what makes Celebrimbor so special that Sauron needed him to create the rings? In the book lore, Sauron makes Celebrimbor create most of the rings to win the trust of their future wearers as elfs, in contrast to Sauron, are considered trustworthy. The game lore does away with this explanation but does not replace it.
Sorry for the late answer. No that does not work. The One Ring is forged before the War. The One Ring and Sauron using it is the reason why the Elves of Eregion know that Annatar must be Sauron. Some had a suspicion, but nobody knew. Celebrimbor is captured and killed in a specific year (Second Age 1697) and for this idea to work it must all happen in that year (and most likely in less than a year) else it contradicts the timeline of the book. That does in my opinion not work either. Esp. you must consider that with the Sack of Eregion (where Celebrimbor was captured probably at the end) the War was not over. It continued for 4 more years and Sauron tried to conquer the rest of Middle-earth (with Lindon and Imladris/Rivendell being under Siege all the time) and we have accounts of Sauron being present. When Sauron lost, he also returned to Mordor and moved "classically" (walk, ride a horse). He did not fly or teleport, because he almost got caught by Númenor on his retreat and he and his guards was all that was left (Nazgûl did not exist yet). You need like 2 month from the Shire back to Mordor (if you travel 50km/31 miles every day). No There are immortal witnesses of the events in Eregion: Elrond and Celeborn. Elrond tried to defend Eregion, but was pushed back and almost killed. He retreated to the Misty Mountains and funded Imladris/Rivendell as stronghold there. We can read that Celebrimbor's body was put on a pole and carried through the streets as some kind of cruel banner. Beyond Elrond and Celeborn who fought there, there were also survivors, who fled to Imladris. It was later discussed if Eregion should be rebuild. The wise Elves did not forget Celebrimbor. He was smart enough to hide the 3 Rings of Power before the war (in Lindon and Lothlórien) and he did not reveal the location of the Rings under torture to Sauron. That's also a weird argument. We can read that Celebrimbor died in Eregion in the books and the one Ring existed already. There is no way that this works in the timeline of the books or makes any sense. Why is Celebrimbor bound to the One Ring? And why would this override the power of Mandos? Sauron is not more powerful and to create a Nazgûl you must transform a person into this state (the person can't die), which was not possible with Elves anyway it seems, because all Nazgûl were once Men. Sauron is bound to the One Ring because the one Ring is a part of Sauron. Sauron is a spirit being and he put a part of his spirit (will and power) into the One Ring. That is not possible for Celebrimbor in of itself (and in addition also not possible chronologically). > In the game lore, we further see Celebrimbor wield the one ring in a full-out assault on Sauron without succumbing to Sauron's influence. Yes and that is total nonsense. It simply doesn't work in the timeline (as explained) and it makes no sense inside the universe. The whole point of the One Ring is that nobody can wield it except for Sauron. The main problem here is, that Shadow of War was advertised as lore friendly and not as an "what if" scenario. And the what if ignored that Celebrimbor is not a good candidate for getting the One Ring. Galadriel and Gandalf both could have gotten the One Ring. And if they wielded the One Ring and managed overcoming Sauron's will for the most part too, they would still turn into Sauron 2.0. They don't need to be bound to the One Ring in the first place. > we see Sauron affect the minds of living beings and influence the physical world while being in spirit form No Sauron can do this because he is a spirit being and immensly powerful (even without the One Ring o before he made it). He still controls his servants and armies without the One Ring in the Third Age. The One Ring was a trick to control the Elves (which did not work) with some beneficial side effects for Sauron. As explained Celebrimbor was not bound to Sauron and my point is more that this fictive change of SoM/SoW does the character of Celebrimbor no justice. Celebrimbor is a tragic figure in the lore, but he is not driven by power or madness like his grandfather. If it was Fëanor and not Celebrimbor, all this would make more sense character wise. Also a wraith can't deny the Gift of Men. When Talion dies, he is dead - by the power of the most powerful entity in existence. The Nazgûl only work because the Men they were did not die, but were transformed into this state. Also it was needed that they wear the 9 Rings of Power and Sauron the One Ring for this transformation to work. Another option would be the Morgul-blade, but both were not present with Talion too. The Morgul-Blade is also a strange weapon. Talion "not dying" because Celebrimbor wants it so, is though not a good explanation when messing with death itself. No it does not answer the question, because of all people in the world of Tolkien, Celebrimbor knows best that making Rings is not a good idea. And why not just destroy the One Ring and make no new Ring? Why did Celebrimbor not run to Mount Doom and threw into the fire while he was in Mordor and had the One Ring? And that is why those Rings are a bad idea. But ofc Celebrimbor can't make a Ring like the One Ring. he can only make Rings of Power, the slave rings. I hope that clarifies my points further.
@ThePhilosophersGames > Sorry for the late answer. Thanks for even reading and taking the time to reply :) I agree with you that finding a way to make the timeline fit is really hard. I do not have enough book knowledge to argue with you here. :) Your main point is that Sauron would have to interrupt his war for the events of the game to take place and that there is not enough time for this interruption. My point is that, if you can somehow make the game events happen after the war, you can resolve the problem of not enough time. However, you run into other problems like the One Ring having to be forged after the war and Celebrimbor having to be alive at that point. So you need an explanation for why the elves felt that Sauron was linked to the rings that differs from Sauron using the One Ring. It is difficult to make it work. A thing that I overlooked in your video is that the black gate was no longer guarded by Gondor at the time of Talion. I do not really have an explanation for this. Personally, I think the likeliest explanation is that the game authors just did not look enough into time lines. However, if we really wanted to look for a deeper explanation, it is possible that the game authors were only allowed to draw from Lord of the Rings book and film but not Silmarillion material. As far as I understand, you need to negotiate with different entities to get licenses. Not making the time lines work could therefore be on purpose to defend against any legal claims of using Silmarillion material. > > we see Sauron affect the minds of living beings and influence the physical world while being in spirit form [which he can do because of the One Ring] > No Sauron can do this because he is a spirit being and immensly powerful You argue that every Maiar or Valar could influence Middle-Earth just because they are Maiar or Valar. I do not think that this is the case. It was possible to cast Morgoth into the void and prevent his return to Middle-Earth this way. If he could still influence Middle-Earth from there, he would do so, yet he does not. Sauron has also been cast into the void, yet he can influence Middle-Earth. There is therefore something special with Sauron. My understanding is that the One Ring was his anchor in Middle-Earth that prevented him from truly being cast into the void. This is the reason why he cannot return once the One Ring is destroyed. > And why would this override the power of Mandos? If being bound to the One Ring can keep Sauron in Middle-Earth, then it should also work for other beings whose spirit is tied to a ring. As long as the spirit is held in Middle-Earth, it does not go to the void or Mandos. > Why is Celebrimbor bound to the One Ring? Maybe because he - according to game lore - was there when it was forged. Maybe because - according to game lore - he forged it. Maybe some different reason. As I wrote, the fact that Celebrimbor was - according to game lore - even necessary for the forging is a mystery, if not a plot hole. In game lore, only Celebrimbor was able to make rings. Not Sauron. Sauron only taught Celebrimbor how to do it without being able to do it himself. My argument is that according to game lore Celebrimbor is bound to the One Ring but the game lore does not state many details. If we accept that Celbrimbor is bound to the One Ring, many of the other things you point out start to make sense. If we do not accept it, then my argumentation breaks down. This is a very central element of my argumentation. To be fair, the books are also pretty thin on where the ring magic comes from and how it really works. So I do not feel that it is fair to only blame the game for being vague here. I do not know whether the books explain why Sauron did not make any rings before Eregion events and why he did not create any afterwards. Nazgûl are pretty dope servants. Having some more would be useful. The game lore would fill this gap as without Celebrimbor Sauron cannot make any rings. > [Discussion about Celebrimbor wielding the One Ring against Sauron] > The whole point of the One Ring is that nobody can wield it except for Sauron. If you formulate it as "the point of the One Ring is that nobody can wield it except the spirit(s) bound to it", and accept that Celebrimbor is bound to it, then the game story makes more sense. > And why not just destroy the One Ring and make no new Ring? My argument is that being bound to the same ring as Sauron corrupted Celebrimbor. For this reason, he seeks total power. Destroying the One Ring before the new one would safe Middle-Earth but corrupted Celebrimbor would not get what he wants. In game lore we can see this clearly when Nazgûl-Isildur is killed. His corrupted form wants to take Sauron's place. > Why did Celebrimbor not run to Mount Doom and threw into the fire while he was in Mordor and had the One Ring? In game-lore, I believe that Sauron guarded Mount Doom in the time between the One Ring's forging and the battle where Celebrimbor loses it. For this reason, he needed an attack force to access Mount Doom. Without Mount Doom, the One Ring cannot be destroyed. (Maybe destroying Mount Doom somehow should have been prio 1 for Sauron... I digress.) > Also a wraith can't deny the Gift of Men. When Talion dies, he is dead I do not think that he dies. Ring magic keeps his wounds closed to prevent him from bleeding out and thus dying. First, it is the One Ring that keeps his wound closed, via the will of Celebrimbor. The works because of Celebrimbor's spirit being tied to the One Ring and thus Celebrimbor can use some of the rings powers. When the new ring is forged we briefly see Celebrimbor's ghost leaving Talion. This is the moment where Celembrimbor ceases to be tied to the One Ring and thus it is also the moment where it stops keeping Talion alive. Talion must therefore put on the new ring to keep his wound shut. When he looses the new ring, we see Talion bleeding heavily before taking one of the nine rings which seals his wound again. However, I do agree that there is one plothole/mystery here: Why the heck did Celebrimbor out of all people chose Talion? Maybe it has to do with the amnesia of game-Celebrimbor which is not well explained. Maybe he was not able to choose anyone before that and just picked the first person he could once he was able to. > The main problem here is, that Shadow of War was advertised as lore friendly and not as an "what if" scenario. > [...] > Celebrimbor is a tragic figure in the lore I fully agree that the game story is not close to something that Tolkien would write. It does not fit his style. I also fully agree that picture the game and books paint of Celebrimbor differ significantly. However, that is not the point of the discussion. :) The discussion is about whether one can make the story work in a logical sense. It is not about whether the original author would like it. Getting the Eregion timeline to work seems really difficult. Beyond that, I think the story can be made to work. I'm not saying that it is a good story though. > Sauron is not more powerful and to create a Nazgûl you must transform a person into this state (the person can't die), which was not possible with Elves anyway it seems, because all Nazgûl were once Men. I do not think that it is relevant for the discussion, but from where do you have the knowledge that elves cannot become Nazgûl? My understanding was that it was just never tried. This means that the effect of putting one of the nine rings onto an Elve is unknown.
They marketed it as very friendly towards the book lore, which it's clearly not. Hard to say how aware people are, who didn't red the books. I personally think it fits the films more, but no idea what the exact policy was. I assume they have to ask Middle-earth enterprises for the story first, so it could be film canon.
Really interesting video ! It is all very clear for everybody to understand and at the same time you go deeply in Tolkien's universe. It is a really rich lore, hugely more complex than just a transposition of catholicism or northern religion into fantasy, as I sometimes hear. As you explain, there is lot of things that does not match between books and the game. Nonetheless, I think the game is pretty brilliant. For example, it follows Tolkien when he describes mankind mortality as a "gift" : at the end, after Talion craved for joining his dead family during the whole game, he eventually accept to stay in Mordor to figt Sauron, even if he "do not want to" ; we might argue that the game becomes really repetitive we finish it (and that's true), but it fits with Talion's choice : he is doom to repetitive life to help fighting Sauron, it is Sisyphean. I also liked the DLC "Lord of Light", which is an illustration of what Galadriel says to Frodon in The Lord of the rings : even if Celebrimbor is a good guy as you say, by our action he becomes a kind of symetric of the Dark lord. He may thinks he serves the light, but in the end he acts exactly like Sauron does. The brilliant idea is that his army is formed of orcs, exactly like Sauron's army ; so it is also reprensented in the gameplay. I hope this is understandable, I am not really good in English ^^
Thank you. Yes I agree with you. Shadow of Mordor dives probably deeper into the lore than most other games. I answered to someone here in the comments and I talked about Gorlim who betrayed Beren's father Barahir. And I'm pretty sure there is a reference in the game. Shadow of Mordor does many things right. It's a great game, even though I would personally prefer, if it wouldn't mess too much with some very essential topics. But I'm still happy, that the game exists.
Yes probably more to the films, which makes sense, because a different company (Middle-earth-Enterprises, former known as Tolkien Enterprises) owns the film rights, while the Tolkien Family (Tolkien Estate) only owns the book rights for the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings (J. R. R. Tolkien sold the film and merchandise rights in the 60s). I guess Middle-earth Enterprises created their own LotR film universe and the games are based on the merchandise rights and are part of that I assume (at least since WB Games does LotR games; EA had the license too once and some of their games feel different).
we do see sauron take form in the game (I believe the game uses the same idea that sauron needs a strong ring of power to gain his power back and take form like in the movie although the movies only deal with the one ring, I know the book he is always present just in a weakened state). although I don't think the rings of power are necessarily for control anymore. sauron took back all the dwarves rings, sauron can control the ring wraiths without the one ring so he doesnt really need their rings, and the elves don't wear their rings while sauron is present in arda. so if they do in fact have sauron only take form with a ring of power maybe he gets a hold of ours? I believe we are becoming more and more corrupt throughout shadow of war the longer we hold the ring. you can hear celebrimbor say before the boss fight let us take back what is ours and before the siege he says something similar. Now I don't think it's the one ring. I think it's s different ring of power. I seen a video with a good explanation. like in the first game anytime talion finds a talisman from celebrimbor past he cries out in agony when he touches it. when the ring slips on his finger in the trailer he cries out in pain and then we gained a new ability anytime we found one. I think we take celebrimbors talismans and use them to forge this ring. it's not gold and its made out of other metal and the cries of pain remind me from the first one all those cutscenes so I think they were on to something. they said it's the pain and memories we gain power from and so we take all those and forge this new ring which gives us emense power. I think it's all about power in the game and not control with regard to the ring we forge. maybe sauron finally gets celebrimbors spirit to join his and that's how he comes back (spoilers ahead) like at the end of shadow of mordor before we stop him. I think the black hand when calling celebrimbor at the beginning of shadow of mordor he expected him to merge with himself instead of talion. but celebrimbor saw talion and merged with him instead. this game is amazing tho. and shadow of war is gonna be even better. it wouldn't suprised me if shadow of war won a bunch of awards again, including game of the year. I can not wait for it. august is too far away
Thank you for making this video; I really enjoyed it. I love the books, PJ films, Shadow of Mordor game... and really like it when other folk can see that different media versions of the same story, though not canon and sometimes close to fan fiction, still hold value and interest. I thought that Monolith Productions had made a pretty good fist of creating an evocative and rich version of Mordor for Players to explore in SoM. I can’t wait to see what happens with Shadow of War. You did a great job of explaining the book lore differences to a potentially non-read audience and I believe that anything that brings a greater audience nearer to the books is a good thing. In fact, I may print and wear a PhilosophersGames 'I’m as canon as possible' t-shirt someday. Again, thanks. ;)
Thank you. I agree and I hope some people might become interested in the books. I'm also interested to see how Monolith develops their game concepts further. Haha that would be funny (bzw. that's an awesome line for a t-shirt :D). I'm very happy, that this video gets such a positive response and enjoy the interaction here. So thanks to you too.
Still Sauron was a Maiar and in the time that is not documented in the books who knows what he did to Celebrimbor. It must have to do something with the ritual, I would say. Somehow Celebrimbor became a wraith. When Saurons minions summoned this Celebrimbor-Wraith he merged with the dying Talion to have a body again and he uses the power of the rings he created, that are kinda a part of him aswell as a part of Sauron, to let him survive any wound. As long as the ring is destroyed after the game's story is finished it is "acceptable".
It is somewhat documented what Sauron did in that time (if I understand you correctly here): he conquered Middle-earth. He was in war with the elves and dwarfs for several years. As mentioned in the video, this is also how Imladris/Rivendell was founded as one of the last bastions not controlled by Mordor. Only with the help of Númenor they could beat Sauron, else he would have won. (In the Unfinished Tales you can also read, that orcs carried the dead body of Celebrimbor on a pole through Eregion at that time. The Rings of Power are not known to have a "will" of their own as the One Ring. I also think that Sauron could create the One Ring and put part of his will into it because, he is a Maia - a sprit being, that can have a physical form, but are not bound to it. Elves and co are not and only "complete" with a body. So they can't build an artifact similar to the "One Ring". As mentioned in the video it is very difficult for Celebrimbor to become a wraith. Sauron's power is not great enough to overcome the authority of Mandos. I assume the Nazgûl never got summoned into the halls of Mandos and were just "transformed" into this wraith state, but it seems, that it does not work with elves and dwarfs.
celebrimbor talks about the death of men in the game. he says something like the discovery of what awaits after death is for men along. that is the gift of men. or something like that. it's in shadow of mordor. I've been replaying it getting hyped for shadow of war and that's what it said.
As a ghost celebrimbor can't access the physical form but while his spirit is residing inside the party of talion which is a physical form he's using that and in the game he was taught how to forge rings of Power by Sauron style that's how he knows how to create it far weaker than sauron's sure he ain't no angel demon but both his will and Talons will and Spirits are definitely put into the ring and celebrimbor was cursed by Sauron so he couldn't go back to Heaven until the the black hand was killed but talian and convinced him to stay and fight
Having an alliance with someone or a group don't always mean they are really a part of the alliance. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer meaning to know about them, how the function and their needs. If you put a ferrel dog in a dog house with 6 feet of chain there's no way in hell he's going to let you to the dog house. Balrogs could be a similar situation. Like dragons they feel they are invincible. If you were the Balrog in Moria and living the way he lived, would you ever consider that anyone could come in and take you out?
I have to admit I made this video such a long time ago, that I can't really remember what I said in the Balrog section. I think I discussed the idea that Sauron could not control a Balrog, but maybe he is an ally. When Shadow of War came out (I think 6 month after I released this video) I also learnt that the Balrog was not an ally of Sauron at all and just a weird "side quest".
@@ThePhilosophersGames I binge watch your videos. I guess I need to pay attention to dates. I had the Simorillion and 3 others books but somebody liked them more then me. I should replace them. I still have a box set with the Hobbit and LOTR. I need to read them again.
haha you seem to like them then ^^ Your comment is probably valid, but after a few years I also start to forget things. This was my first little "breakthrough" video (and my first LotR lore related video), that boosted my channel from like 75 subs to ~1500k out of nowhere, so a very special video for me personally. Probably would have made it more precise, if I would have made it today. Yes it's always worth re-reading the books, they are just so good.
its crazy how messed up the games timeline is after the 2nd game: the first one only works if it is set between Hobbit and LotR. but the 2nd Game starts with the fall of Minas Ithil and that was 2002 3rd Age, so over 1000 years before LotR. With that Gollum should not apear in both games because he was born 428 years after the fall of Minas Ithil.
Which is exactly why I hated it and don't even want to play shadow of war despite getting it for free and thinking some of the locations are ultra cool (like the castle the witch king lived near shelobs lair)
The game doesn't fit the lore, taking way too many liberties. However, the overall tone of the story does fit that of the books (Talion seeks the Gift of Men, Celebrimbor's ambition backfires, arrogance being the downfall of the Bright Lord, Sauron is depicted as a deceiver who corrupts his victims...)
Very nice video. I must admit Shadow of mordor's view on middle earth pissed me of. There were ways to make a great game and stay in the canon. But the newly announced Shadow of war seems to confirm that Warner is not willing to go in this direction at all
Thank you :) I wish you a lot of fun with the games (note: I also have a detailed "lore comparison" video for Shadow of War alone: ua-cam.com/video/Y-gvR7ioJjA/v-deo.html ).
The balrog was summoned Mordor by orc Sorcerers and acolytes in hopes to be able to control it to serve the dark lord that was never going to happen you can't control the balrog and so it actually runs rampant killing the Orcs that summoned it
Yes they are definitely an exception, but I would argue, that we don't know their exact nature. They could be the remains of fallen Maiar, which is a theory I personally agree on. Some argue they could be elves, but their ability to use spells in this "ghost" form is for me a good indicator for Maiar like entities. The mention of evil spirits also does not appear related to elves in the books.
ThePhilosophersGames The video and your channel in general are both awsome!!!But these two games are just fantasies by their developers without any real connection to the books or movies. For example the fortresses of Gondor in Mordor definetley didn't have the power to maintain control there for so much time.And how in the world the armies of Sauron are "imprisoned" in Mordor if they had so much armies,a civilaised Orc society,an entire army of huge Trolls and Dragons and Wargs and fire and gunpowder weapons that could blow entire fortresses as it is shown in the game??
ThePhilosophersGames The right senario would it been one that in the war of the Ring Sauron wins the war and takes over Middle Earth and Talion's family is murdered when the evil forces invade in the Gondorian heartland.Talion is revived by Celedribor and he performs Guerilla warfare to liberate Middle Earth from Sauron and all these weapons and thousands of evil armies were created because nobody was left to oppose Sauron.Also the human prisoners were ones that were just captured to be slaves.In Shadow of War Talion gets a new ring and he has much more influence on Sauron's armies so he can perform a full on war on him to liberate Middle Earth and Shelob helps hin because Sauron betrayed her before
Celebrimbor forges the ring through Talion. Celebrimbor himself does not interact with the world around him, but through Talion... Discounting of course the more fantastical abilities you have in the game... its not unreasonable. Men as well as elves is able to do "magic", tough magic in Tolkien's universe is... not what we would call magic. Arwyn when she floods the river and wards of the ring-wraiths she does so by waking the god/spirit of the river, through an ancient tongue (which is more or less elvish). Tombombadil sings to pacify the forest (though there are more forces at play there too) And in the silmarillion one of the great elves literally sings to make his ship fly into the great maw of the first of the dragons (deathwing in world of warcraft is puny in compared to this beast) and kills it. The Creator also sings to bring the valar to be, and together they sing a choir that creates the world, (Melkor intentionally sings off tune at this time causing all things bad to be made). So... song is the medium of magic.
As mentioned in the video, that's hard to do, because even if Celebrimbor would not be in the halls of Mandos, he would not be able to interact with a human (including communication), nor partially control him. I also assume that it's not that easy to forge a Ring of Power, considering that Celebrimbor and Sauron both are very experienced in crafting artifacts and men are not well known to use magic (only curses and vows). So even Celebrimbor instructing Talion to build one for him is imo quite a stretch. Agreed magic is special and often tied to words (or music) in Tolkien's Universe. But that does not mean, that everyone can simply wield it. I would argue, that it also involves some kind of authority or at least Ilúvatar accept those words. In the books Glorfindel (instead of Arwen) lures the Nazgûl into the river (Bruinen) at Imladris/Rivendell and Elrond (and Gandalf) summon the flood.There are some fan theories, that is has to do with Elrond's ring of power (Vilya). I think in most examples for magic (as you mentioned) were words involved. E.g. in the video I mention Isildur cursing the Oathbreakers, which denies them access to the halls of Mandos until they fulfill there oath. I think that is also why, they still can interact at least a little bit with the world (even though they can not physically fight in the books).
Yup, While in the movies Suroman throws a fireball down at Gandalf and company... well I don't know if its possible lore wise... Hmm, it has been too long since I read/listened to the books. So to my shame its the movies I remember the most. while good in and of themselves, the fact Tombombadil isn't in it is a sad thing. Or the dark forest in general
Wirklich super gemachte Videos! Da ist richtig viel Wissen reingeflossen. :) Bin dabei, die anderen Tolkien Lore comparison Videos auch anzusehen, aber ich muss gestehen, dass ich jetzt schon weiß, dass ich die Spiele nicht spielen kann... evil-Celebrimbor ist für mich ein echtes no-go. ;) Die Videos sind trotzdem sehr interessant und ich bin gespannt, was für Themen du in Zukunft angehst.^^ Was mir bei diesem Video hier aber aufgefallen ist und mich etwas irritiert hat: dass Saruman nicht nach Mandos' Hallen kommen kann. Ich denke nicht, dass er da je hinkommen würde, da er ja schließlich ein Ainur ist? Schlangenzunge hat zwar seinen Körper getötet, aber damit ist der Maia Saruman ja noch lang nicht "tot". Den Westwind, der Saruman mehr oder weniger "davon weht" hätte ich eher allgemein als Zurückweisung von Valinor und den Valar allgemein gesehen, denn Sarumans Schicksal nach dem Tod verhält sich sicherlich anders als das einer abgewiesenen Menschen- oder Elbenseele. :)
Thank you :) I answer in English (that's my personal rule for the comment section, but ofc you can answer in German). It's a bit difficult to explain, but I'll try. I think it comes down to interpretation. The text implies, that Saruman tried to get back to Valinor, but a wind from the west blew him away (banishment). I can Imagine that if an Ainu loses his body, that he can be summoned there. What i mean with this is, that's it's more like a "shortcut". Going there does not mean, that he is dead, only that his spirit returns to Valinor (as you said). But ofc, it could also mean, that he tried to return there on his own. Sauron can also move around without his body, which makes sense for spirit beings. But ofc the Istari also had to clad in flesh, which should be considered too. Saruman's doom after he dies is definitely different compared to others, because the powers of Valinor saw his betrayal and his death has parallels to Sauron's death: Quote (LotR, The Last Debate): For he [Sauron] will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed. and (LotR, The Field of Cormallen) The realm of Sauron is ended!’ said Gandalf. ‘The Ring-bearer has fulfilled his Quest.’ And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell. So we have some parallels and the phrase (The Scouring of the Shire): but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing. So Saruman's spirit was dissolved into nothing and was never able to take a shape again. This banishment and losing his power, was the consequence of his actions. So in the end his state could be comparable to an rejected Elf or Men soul, because there is not much left of him I guess. In the Unfinished Tales we can also read: Whereas Curunír [Saruman] was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whither-soever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.
The timeline does not work for the baseline of the story. E.g. Gondor did not guard the Blackgate any more for ~1500 years when this game takes place, because Gondor as weakened over time a lot. In addition Celebrimbor 100% died in Eregion. he never went to Mordor and started a rebellion there, stealing the One Ring or helping refining it. Currently working on a video about this time in the Second Age and I have much greater knowledge of this time in comparison to what I knew 2017 when it made this video (in march 5 years ago). The premise is incompatible with LotR's story and Tolkien's vision of it and this character. I like the game. it's fun and it has some correct lore and some interesting ideas in it, but it's more of an what if/alternate history/"parallel universe" story.
Could it be that Celebrimbor did enter the halls of mendos, but instead of going to valinor became a pure spirit being wether by his own request or a detieties suggestion for some unknown reason, perhaps so that he may pose a fight against a weakend sauron at a later date. The ritual the hand did could be seen as the finishing touches on a ritual Sauron could have been conducting for years as he was not finished tormenting the elf lord and it was a chance to further his powers and make sure an elf with the knowledge of ring craft didn't return and make another ring of power not tied to him to challenge him. The ritual could have wript him from the halls of mendos or wherever he went but in a last state of defiance he fused with Celebrimbor. Ones fussed his mind could be influenced by Talions thoughts at his last moment, amplifying his sorrow and wrath by there fold, turning Talion (a man that's used to dealing with wiled emotions) to serve as a conscience of sorts while they both seek the same goal but try not to fall to there rage and sorrow, but Celebrimbor unused to dealing with so much rage would have a worse time controlling it unlike Talion who seems rather composed in all the trailers so far in comparison to Celebrimbor.
Once in the Halls you can't escape against Mandos will. When Melkor/Morgoth (Sauron's Master) was captured by the Valar, they imprisoned him there for 3 Ages. And not even Melkor as the most powerful of the Valar could escape against the will of Mandos. Sauron and Morgoth simply don't have the authority for that. When elves dwell in the halls they have a chance of being "reincarnated" on Aman, so they get a new body. That e.g. happened to Glorfindel, who also got more powers, because of his noble sacrifice and later send back to Middle-earth to help against Sauron. But this is one of few exceptions. Most reincarnated stay in Valinor. Elves also need a body on Arda to be complete, which is e.g. different for Ainur.
ThePhilosophersGames Hmmm alright, that part of the theory is gone. XD Still could be an interesting turn of events if Celebrimbor was treated similar to Glorfindel only sent back to deal with problems of the wraith world aka a weakend sauron (still has the wring but not in his possession) so as to either keep him from gathering his strength or slow the process as well as other non physical entities, but sauron got wind of it and conducted a ritual to bind this spirit (which could have been powered up by Eru eluvatar or another maia for The specific purpose of battling non physical threats) to one of his captain's but In a last act of defiance possesd the dying body of Talion the mental things happend, and now he's a sort of fusion character that deals with physical and non-physical threats. Just desperately trying to have the Talion Celebrimbor and there insane feats make sense to me in order to enhance my enjoyment of the games XD I fully recognize that it's far fetched and probably not what happend but it is interesting and with my limited knowledge of Tolkiens world it makes some sense to me.
haha you are trying really hard and it sounds almost plausible :P But how does Talion's dead body regenerate? He is dead too. They should not have a physical form. I would say if Celebrimbor would be a Maia, all this could make a little bit more sense.
ThePhilosophersGames All one can do is try XD The dead body thing. The easy explanation is game mechanics, though it would have been pretty cool if the game was all about the spirit of Celebrimbor fighting sauron saying in the wraith world... I smell a missed opportunity. The harder answer is lore wise and in all honesty Im not sure i can answer it. But I believe the simplest explanation is that it doesn't regenerate. Notice that there aren't a billion corpses of Talion lying about and you never hear of any orc or uruk using his corps for anything only planing to. My theory is that the 'body' of Talion is actually similar to saurons armour just a form the now two spirits take when traveling the physical realm, and that when this "body" dies it dissipates and ones the spirits have enough strength the reform it, similar to what sauron does. The towers they always apear on are in my guess simply ways to make this reforming easier as there essentially clusters of 'good magic' in a land of 'evil magic' if you want to get Extremly technical XD Light and shadow.
Also Minas Ithil fell to the Witch King a thousand years before the events of the Lord of the Rings. Shadow of War has decided that it happened at the same time.
Yes, they seem to compress time a lot and put the story of Minas Ithil into Shadow of War. My (probably) next video will be partly about the story of Minas Ithil. I hope I can finish it soon.
I love the game and the books. Even though, as you said, I would have preferred them to stay closer to the books, the game is still fun and very innovative with the nemesis system. Very informative video and enjoyed it thoroughly, keep up the good work.
Incorrect, the oathbreakers broke that Rohan kings legs so he died in the mountain, therefore they can interact with the environment as part of their curse, otherwise they'd never be able to lift the curse because they wouldn't be able answer the call to fight. Scaring people isn't fighting, fighting is fighting.
Incorrect, LotR does not mention broken legs for the corpse (the word "leg" or "legs" is not even mentioned in the whole chapter) and the books I mainly used for this video as foundation and source were: The Silmarillion, The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. For some additional info: a bit of the Unfinished Tales and a bit of Morgoth's Ring when I had to, here the Quote from LotR: "Nonetheless he drew near, and saw Aragorn kneeling, while Elladan held aloft both torches. Before him were the bones of a mighty man. He had been clad in mail, and still his harness lay there whole; for the cavern’s air was as dry as dust, and his hauberk was gilded. His belt was of gold and garnets, and rich with gold was the helm upon his bony head face downward on the floor. He had fallen near the far wall of the cave, as now could be seen, and before him stood a stony door closed fast: his finger-bones were still clawing at the cracks. A notched and broken sword lay by him, as if he had hewn at the rock in his last despair. Aragorn did not touch him, but after gazing silently for a while he rose and sighed. ‘Hither shall the flowers of simbelmynë come never unto world’s end,’ he murmured. ‘Nine mounds and seven there are now green with grass, and through all the long years he has lain at the door that he could not unlock. Whither does it lead? Why would he pass? None shall ever know!" - The Lord of the Rings, The Passing of the Grey Company The only source for broken legs we find in the Vinyar Tengwar Issue 42, The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor, Halifirien, Note 6: "But the door was shut in his face, and enemies that had followed him silently came up and broke his legs and left him to die in the darkness, unable to find any way out." I don't consider this text canon and I did not use this as source for any of my videos. A reason for this is stated in the text itself: "At the words "It may however have been a tomb", Tolkien abandoned this text, and (no doubt immediately) marked the entire account of the Halifirien for deletion." This was never intended by Tolkien to be published and you don't find a note of broken legs in any of the main and secondary works. This is an philosophical essay If you have another source I'm not aware of, please feel free to provide a source.
@@ThePhilosophersGames my only source was geekzone and his video on the oathbreakers, where he did use that letter/thing as canon and because it didn't contradict any lotr lore from the books I took it as canon too. Thanks for the clarification ThePhilosophersGames. Love the channel btw and keep up the fantastic work.
Interesting and well researched then by GeekZone. It's imo a fairly hidden piece of information. But yes canon can be often debated, I still struggle a bit with what information to take as canon and what not. It would be the only instance where the Oathbreakers would potentially cause physical harm to someone (maybe they scared him and he fell down, breaking his legs, but that would be pure speculation of my side). Back in the day when I made this video, I had not red these issues of the Vinyar Tengwar and to this day I haven't red all of them. It's really very special material. Maybe there is a note of it somewhere else in HoMe. I know parts of the "The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor" was published in the Unfinished Tales, but I think this part with the broken legs is not in it (I could not find it at least). PS: Thank you :)
@@ThePhilosophersGames for me canon is any information that doesn't contradict any of the mainstream canon like the hobbit, lotr and the silmarilion, spelling maybe bad on that lol. Although as you say it's always up for debate, I'm not going to debate you on lotr though, you know much more than I. most of my info comes from either you, geekzone, men of the west or alachier galadurithan, all good channels. First time I've ever commented on your stuff. Favourite vids of yours are, numinor lore/aragorn, sauron/morgoth and the Istari videos 😍. Honestly I did not expect you to answer on such an old video but it seemed I actually had some information not included in your video, only time that's happened and I couldn't resist.
haha no problem. When you write a new comment (not an answer to an old comment), it's very likely that I see the comment, because the comment list in YT's creator studio shows all new comments independent of when a video was posted. That is not the case with answers to old comments though. Ever comment and answers to it is like a thread, so when the top comment does not show up in my list, the answers don't show up either. I have basically no chance to see the answers to old comments. I try to answer as much as possible though or at least let people know, that I red the comment (by marking and upvoting it; exceptions are borderline unfriendly comments ^^). Yes I guess most people have their own idea of canon. For me it's mainly LotR, Hobbit, Silmarillion, Letters (if they were send) and the published poems of Tolkien (considering the context). I ofc take corrections and additions into account from e.g. the HoMe books (including Great Tales), History of the Hobbit and esp. Unfinished Tales, which I like a lot. As long as the information does not contradict the main works it's OK, but sometimes there is a reason why Tolkien did not publish it or abandoned it (like the Round World Version). I take those with a grain of salt. With information published in the Parma Eldalamberon or the Vinyar Tengwar I'm a bit careful though, esp. when Christopher Tolkien did not put them into any of the HoMe books and also people outside of Tolkien and Christopher Tolkien worked on those.
It is totaly possible for elves to become wraiths. If elves, or men die their spirits were *summoned* to the Halls of Mandos. Elves can refuse the call and their fëa wil remain. "For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly: the limit of their lives is the life of Arda [...] As the weight of the years [...] gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalië on earth will have becomes spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly." -Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs of the Elves The spirits of men can be forced to stay (Ringwraiths, Dead Men of Dunharrow). If the Nazgul died or just traveled to the Wraith World...the result would still be the same. The rings bound them to both worlds and to Sauron. We don't know for sure if dwarfs were summoned to the Halls of Mandos or even dwelled there. At least it was what they believed. Even after Saruman was stripped of his rank and titel he was still a Maiar and had powers left. He could still use his 'voice' and I am sure after his death he also was summoned to Halls of Mandos to be judged by Mandos himself. He could have refused the call... Edit: Don't get me wrong I did enjoy the video ❤
I had this discussion a lot. The only hint for Elves becoming wraiths written in The Lord of the Rings is the possibility of fading, when they don't leave Middle-earth. Círdan is the oldest known Elf living in Middle-earth (he has also not seen the Light of the Two Trees) and he did not fade. Ofc he had a Ring of Power for ~1000 years, but he potentially left Middle-earth in the Fourth Age as Elf not Wraith. So fading due to living on Middle-earth for too long (becoming a Wraith) is not an option for Celebrimbor, because he is far too young in the Second Age. Refusing the summon of Mandos is potentially possible (should have not denied that theoretical possibility so strictly in the video), but not even Fëanor did that, quote: "and his [Fëanor's] likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos." - Silmarillion, Of the Return of the Noldor It's simply unheard of to my knowledge, esp since I partially ignore the History of Middle-earth books for this video (ofc some information can only be found there). There are some special cases that could in theory be Elvish wraiths, like the Barrow-wights, but I know no case, esp. in the material I used for this video. In addition SoM and SoW only had access to Hobbit and LotR + Appendices from a license/rights perspective. Ofc they still included elements like the Blue Wizards, which are only mentioned in the Unfinished Tales and Peoples of Middle-earth. Another important point: SoM implies, that both Celebrimbor and Talion could have left Middle-earth at the end, but refusing the summon once (which Celebrimbor would have to do to become a wraith) seems quite definitive in my opinion. E.g. Gorlim was refused or refused himself to be summoned and it does not appear, that he could do anything about it after this. So the question is: why would Celebrimbor, who was overall "wiser" than his grandfather Fëanor, be more foolish than his grandfather in death and refuse the summon to the Halls of Mandos? That makes no sense and as I said is unheard of for Elves as far as I know. The Nazgûl in contrast never died. They were transformed into "Ringwraiths" through the powers of their Rings and are bound to the One Ring through this. Celebrimbor was not bound by a Ring, since Elves resonated differently. Gil-galad did not become a wraith and he died and wore a Ring of Power too. The Oathbreakers/Dead Men of Dunharrow broke an oath and were cursed by a Dúnedain King. The Dúnedain Kings (even later the Ruling Stewards) could call upon Eru for an oath and so God himself accepted this oath and curse and it became reality. This case however demonstrates that Wraiths are quite powerless. In the books the Oathbreakers just frighten the Corsairs of Umbar, who jumped off their ships, fleeing in terror. But it seems they could not physically interact with the world. In conclusion: the state as wraith seems terrible and is always portrait with a loss in power. Even Sauron suffered this, when he lost the One Ring. Saruman was refused to enter the halls of Mandos it seems: "To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into *nothing* ." - The Lord of the Rings, The Scouring of the Shire He does not seem happy and it's implied that his power was lost. Gandalf only expelled Saruman from the Order of the Istari and broke his staff (in my opinion a symbol of his authority). ofc he could still use his powerful voice. He was (as you say) still a Maia. In Shadow of Mordor/War (and this is my main point in the video) Talion/Celebrimbor receive "next level immortality" due to Celebrimbor being a wraith and him somehow fusing with a dying Talion. They can interact with the world, talk to people still having a physical form thanks to Talion, die over and over again and they don't lose power or suffer from the state of being "wraiths". It has no consequences for them, which is untypical for what we now from the works. Nt only that in my opinion it clearly contradicts the books. Esp. why would an Elvish Wraith be able to stop Talion from dying? Why can he do things, not even a living Elf could do? Elrond was a powerful healer, but I'm not sure that a slit throat + the resulting trauma + heavy bloodloss could have saved Talion. And was we later see in SoW, Talion is not healed at all. When Celebrimbor leaves him, his wounds reappear. So what exactly did he do to Talion. Actually we see Talion's spirit in SoM, so he definitely died. And with all this it becomes very difficult to plausible explain, what hapens in the game. To end on a positive note: I still like that the game tries to find a "story" explanation for respawning after death, an effort not many games make. But in this video I compare that to the main books' lore and there it does not fit, when they don't suffer any consequences. I revisited this topic a bit in my Shadow of War lore comparison: ua-cam.com/video/Y-gvR7ioJjA/v-deo.html in case you are interested.
@@ThePhilosophersGames Your right about Saruman (how could I forget) and probably right about the fading part. But ... "It would seem that in these after-days more and more of the Elves, be they of the Eldalië in origin or be they of other kinds, who linger in Middle-earth now refuse the summons of Mandos, and wander houseless in the world, unwilling to leave it and unwilling to inhabit it, haunting trees or springs or hidden places that once they knew." -Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs of the Elves And there is still the possibility of a Morgul-Knife...hypothetically. The Black Hand(Black Númenórean?) made some kind of blood sacrifice (Sauron did similar things[I don't know for what purpose] at his temple on Númenor). He tried to bind Celebrimbors fëa to himself but Celebrimbor defied him and bound himself to Talion. Celebrimbor did not intend to bind himself to someone in the first place but was forced. Don't ask me how that works^^ "...Gil-galad did not become a wraith and he died and wore a Ring of Power too." It is told that the Elves did not wear their Rings while Sauron was in posession of The One (except for the moment Sauron put his Ring on). The Three were also never touched/corrupted by Sauron. "The Oathbreakers/Dead Men of Dunharrow broke an oath and were cursed by a Dúnedain King [...]This case however demonstrates that Wraiths are quite powerless. In the books the Oathbreakers just frighten the Corsairs of Umbar, who jumped off their ships, fleeing in terror. But it seems they could not physically interact with the world." Does this count for elves too? Not sure about that. Especially the Calaquendi. The Calaquendi live in both worlds at the same time. Maybe they still wield this power in death. I think we can agree on one thing. The Games are not very lore friendly but still fun :)
Neither is breaking someone's neck sure the body stops moving in the heart stops breathing but all the motor functions are in the head your Consciousness is in the head your brain still working as it slowly dies with no oxygen to be pumped through
I got something that could explain what the hell is going on in shadow of Mordor. What if, this is a timeline gone wrong somehow, I don't know how this could happen. But if something is messing with Middle Earth and making Sauron more powerful somehow for some kind of long term plan. It could be that Celebrimbor was brought as wraith to restore balance and quell this dramatically over powered version of Sauron and his army. I mean it makes sense, you take over his army, kill his most powerful servants and then when his One ring is becoming to powerful. A new one is crafted but instead of being a influence of evil it's a influence of balance or Light.
That definitely an interesting idea, but I feel like Shadow of Mordor feels more like a different universe, where basic rules of the world changed. But different timeline could fit too. Not a bad theory, a bit like Matrix (in a very distant way), if I understand you correctly ^^ We will see, in what direction Shadow of War is going.
So the Ring of Power forged by Sauron has his Spirit/Essence in it, which is why it is such a corrupting force. The ring being forged by Talion/Calebrimbor would not have this effect, but (if made the same way) would have Talion/Calebrimbor's Spirit/Essence in it. Theoretically, this ring of power would not be a corrupting force... well it would corrupt in the sense that it is overriding another persons personality and emotions. Sauron is not corrupted by his ring, because it is himself that is in it. So, the new ring should not corrupt Talion/Calebrimbor, cuz it is a part of them inside of it. Now if someone else wore it, then THAT person would start having the creator's Spirit/Essence overriding their own. Even still the overriding force in the new ring might not even be bad or evil, it would be Talion/Calebriombor's drive for Justice/Revenge. You know infinitely more about the lore, so I will differ to your judgement on my theory.
I'm happy, that people here put so much thought into their ideas and theories. All those are pretty borderline scenarios. And it's often hard to find a conclusion. I would argue here, that Sauron is a Maia. That are by nature "divine spirit beings"/angel like beings. They are complete with only their spirit (even though having a physicalform seems to help them or make them more powerful). Elves and men on the other side are body and spirit beings and only complete with both. So a powerful entity as Sauron can put part of his will inside an object like The One Ring, because he can manipulate his bodiless form, it's not bound to "space" on the same level, if this makes sense. Celebrimbor or Talion can't do that. Also Celebrimbor is not complete, because he has no body. It feels a bit like Celebrimbor is portrayed like a Maia in Shadow of Mordor/War. Funnily enough, all this would make more sense that way. I would also argue that the One Ring is not necessarily overriding in a sense of domination. It's more slowly manipulating and giving a new "evil" perspective. The Ringbearers don't turn evil immediately, but develop parts of it over time not knowing that they are part of the big plan returning the One Ring to Sauron. So you are right, if there would be another one Ring filled with Revenge, it would also slowly manifest over time and bring them to go for revenge, I guess. It's hard to say. Sauron is a powerful entity and driven by manipulating and dominating others. So the ring empowers those tendencies inside its wearer. I guess it would be the same, if another One Ring could exist. But this ring would imo also be considered evil. It's a complicated matter :D
Obviously Sauron couldn't "summon" Celebrimbor from the Halls of Mandos, and Talion could not be resurrected as death is absolute. However, what if neither actually died? Both had their bodies destroyed, but theoretically Celebrimbor was bound to the world by the Ring, and Talion was bound as well through the blood sacrifice. They wouldn't be wraiths in the normal sense (not allowed by Mandos to fully die), but that they cannot die without either both resolving the blood sacrifice or the Ring being destroyed.
Not sure if I understand you correctly. I try to answer, as I understand it. Maybe I overlooked something. It's indicated in the books, that Celebrimbor dies. A ritual sacrifice was not mentioned. In the Unfinished Tales we can read: "In black anger he (Sauron) turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond." In a "what if" scenario, even if you get sacrificed in a ritual, you still die and enter the Halls of Mandos. The only entity who could change that, would be Ilúvatar himself. He would have to accept the sacrifice and for some reason deny the (in these cases innocent) "offering" access to the Halls of Mandos or transform his spirit. I think that's very unlikely and not heard of in the books. If human sacrifices are mentioned (as far as I know), worshiping Melkor/Morgoth is connected to it. But Morgoth while powerful, still can't do that. I assume Morgoth's only option would be to transform or change a living creature into something else. This part is actually not that well defined in the books, but I think he usually can't "create" so powerful beings like Celebrimbor (in Shadow of Mordor). Also Morgoth was banned into the void, which should limit his options massively. The bounding to the One Ring after death, would also not work, because we know other Ring-bearers, who (simply) died and did not live on as ghost like being. E.g. Isildur or Déagol. The only beings (still alive), where some kind of transformation worked (Rings of Power), were the humans, who became Nazgûl. E.g. on Dwarfs it did not work, probably not on elves either. It seems that Tolkien put a lot of power into the spoken word (like vows and curses), as in Christianity (which is no accident). But there's only one entity in the LotR universe, that has the authority to give these words enough "power" and that would be Ilúvatar. I hope that helps =)
you make a good point, and really i think im just playing devils advocate here, but you forgot about sauron being bound too the one ring, i think it might be abit different if you make the ring and imbue it with your will, which is supposedly exactly what celebrimbore did with not only the one ring of power, but talions ring as well in Shadow of War, my only problem with my own theory is that sauron is Maia and maybe thats why he can bind his will to objects, meaning celebrimbor wouldnt be able too.
Yes, very good point and I would answer the same: Sauron can do this, because Sauron is a Maia. E.g. Men can't do it, else this would be a way to become immortal and at some point someone would have tried it (e.g. Númenor). Elves are different ("immortal"), but also bound to the world through their body, which they need to be outside the halls of Mandos or to interact with the physical world. Maiar and Valar have a different "level" of immortality, because they are not (that strongly) bound to their physical forms and have control abut their spirit. They are complete with only their spirits (I think called ëalar). In contrast elves and men need their bodies and spirits to be complete.
yeah, thats certainly my worst fear, i think the tolkien lore needs to be continued, but if we leave it up to corporate gaming company's, there gonna butcher it, similar to the hobbit.
I'm pretty much on the side, that I like that the universe is or feels complete. The story was already told. I know many people love getting more, but personally I like, if stories end and then the writer/creator moves on. I often feel, that in today's story telling, it often goes too much into the direction of: how can we open the door for a sequel. That is a tendency I often dislike.
If anything, Tolkien should have given some leeway into the development and lore of the games and movies. There could have been a lot of opportunity for him to expand his fan base further. But Shadow of Mordor, despite being essentially an alternate version of Middle-Earth, does have that LoTRs feel to it; which is good!
Christopher Tolkien hates the movies and even though I personally (at least) like the expended edition of LotR, I can see why. He would not be pleased with the direction of the games too. I would in case of Shadow of Mordor even say, that the basic gamedesign document existed before they knew, they would get the LotR license, like with Ultima Underworld. Still I agree it fits to the movie universe and catches the spirit of it, but some aspects are a bit off, esp. when it comes to the story. Still I like the game and I think it's a great game.
Maybe, but I think the Tolkien fanbase is still big enough to not get influenced by it or see it as "canon". It's basically fan fiction. As far as I know it was originally also planned to be a new Batman game (related to Nolan's Batman series). But they did not get permission and so the concepts were recycled into their next project which was Shadow of Mordor.
ThePhilosophersGames amazing how all these fan fiction games manage to distort Tolkien’s original ethos that there is indeed a difference between good and evil. Themes like repentance, forgivemensss, redemption are no t addressed. It’s only about conflict and power. Very sad.
Celebrimbor's state as a wraith is somewhat plausible, if you take into consideration that perhaps he's bound to the ring, due to his help in it's creation, and cannot depart until it has been unmade. It's absurd that Sauron would need his help in the first place, but still. I'm just theorizing!
The problem with this is, that it would make more sense, when Celebrimbor was a Maia himself. But he is an elve and without body not fully complete. A Maia is a more spirit-like being, that is complete as a spirit, has control over it and can, as Sauron, bind himself to an object like The One Ring. The only reason for Celebrimbor to be bound to the Ring, would be a curse by Eru Ilúvatar. But Celebrimbor actively tried to trick and oppose Sauron, so why would he have been cursed? It seems, that curses are different in SoM or they fused Maiar and Elves together.
ThePhilosophersGames I'm trying to think, does it ever say specifically that Eru approved of Isildúr's curse laid upon the men of the white mountain? And it wouldn't have worked if he didn't? They were bound to middle-earth, and denied departure, is there any reason why the same couldn't have happened to Celebrimbor?
The King's of men are close to Eru and can call him in important/meaningful situations. This is probably a bit more vague, than I explain it here, but it goes into this direction. That is probably also why Eru himself destroyed Númenor's fleet and he island, because men were rejecting his gift to them with their actions. The Oathbreakers, also (once) worshiped Sauron and in addition broke their oath to Isildur. They worked pretty hard on getting cursed. It can happen to Celebrimbor, but he opposed Sauron. He did not tell him where he hd the 3 elven Rings of Power, even under torture. And if we consider only the events of SoM Celebrimbor didn't tell him and he tried to trick and destroy/beat Sauron. Actually it's to some degree heroic, even though you can question his ways. I would argue, that this is not enough for a curse of this magnitude.
ThePhilosophersGames Rewatching your video, that is a very good point about the Ringwraiths never dying, where as Celebrimbor did. This games treat wraiths like ghosts, which they aren't.
I know this is an older video but very informative and after playing the games again, I think on the surface just from watching the hobbit and lotr the games fit very well if you’re ignorant the deeper lore lmfao but they do a good job not step onto the deep established lore
Maybe eru illuvitar made an exception and saw talions suffering so he merged the soul of celebrimbor with talion and granting him the powers he has ?? Just a thought
Thank you :D That would be possible, but quite unlikely. Eru rarely interferes the affairs of his children and when King's or great evil powers are usually involved. But if that was the official explanation, it would be strange but you could not argue against it.
As for Celebrimbor being an uncorruptable good guy. Lotr has shown us many times that almost anyone can be corrupted from Valar to Hobbits and Sauron is the master of corruption. Celebrimbor was tortured, and since Sauron has no regards for well anything and given that elves can wistand a lot more pain and damage than motral men I am sure that he was tortured a lot. And if anything can break a man is torture until death.
You are right in that regard. We know the example of Gorlim. But we know for a fact, that Celebrimbor did not break, because he id not tell Sauron, where he hid the last 3 Rings. Celebrimbor succeeded. He did not join sides with Sauron and even in the game he is opposing Sauron, which makes sense. The point I tried to make is: if you succeed in this, why would you not allowed to enter the Halls of Mandos? His grandfather did worse, and even he was allowed to go there. So the other possibility would be: to chose to not go to the Halls of Mandos, but why would he do that? He could have gotten a new body in Valinor and brought back to life. There is pretty much no advantage in staying and all elves knew that.
1. the thing about "the gift of man" talion COULD Escape this as he became half elf because celebrimbor choose to be a wraith (not compareble to the nazgul) and not to go to the halls of mandos so he could be summoned to Talion making Talion half-elf but where celebrimbor/Talion power Comes from. Sauron has power over him because in shadow of Mordor + the Bright Lord DLC celebrimbor had the ring and was partly corupted. the black hand of Sauron is probably a "empty" human contolled by Sauron. and Sauron tried to "recruit" celebrimbor and later also Talion/ celebrimbor so Talion could Escape "the gift of man" 2. ThePhilosophersGames I agree with a lot you are saying but there are some things you have wrong (no offense) but the elves could be a wraith 1. they can choose to not go to the halls of mandos 2. maybe by a ring but than only the one and even that is not sure what is a wraith? a soul human, elve etc. maybe even orc witch is bound to middle earth and banned to say so from there hall I think a sideffect of the rings on humans is that it destroys there body's but keeps there souls in ME elf's can choose to stay if there is this kind of effect on other species is unknown, men's have always seeked the gift of elves and vice versa
Thanks for you thoughts. I try to answer this: 1. There are several problems with this. Talion's body is dead. Elves are resistant, but if you slit the throat of an elf, they die too. There is only one instance known, where a men became an elf and that is Túor. And in this instance, that was a gift by Eru, as stated in Tolkien's letter #153: Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. It is also not heard of, that you can become a half-elf through being possessed by an elvish spirit. I think that is very untypical lore wise and does not make a lot of sense. You are born a half-elf and are then allowed by Eru to chose one path. If Talion dies he goes to the halls of Mandos. If not, he is at maximum a very powerless spirit/wraith, that can barely interact with the physical world. Same with an elf. There are statements, that a spirit has the choice to not go to the halls of Mandos, but they came much later and as far as I know, there is no instance known in Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion. Again: a human, a dwarf or an elf is only complete with their spirit and their body. The books do not imply, that they can control their spirits like a Maia, who is complete with only the spirit. The case of possessing a body is really rare and untypical in Lord of the Rings. Even considering the barrow-wights. Also as stated in the letter, mortality and immortality are the domain of Eru himself. Not even a Vala can easily mess with this and change the rules and neither can Celebrimbor or Sauron. They simply do not have the authority. At least from the books perspective. 2. I talk about this case in the video, so I don't see a mistake there, but maybe I can clarify it. What I mean (and I think I only mentioned this here in the comments not in the video), elves can probably not become Nazgûl (Ringwraith). Dwarfs can't and why would it possible for the resistant and immortal Elves? We can also read, that they sensed the corruption of the One Ring and they were still able to take off their rings. So elves are at least capable of avoiding Sauron's power. The other case would be, that an elf or men does not enter the halls of Mandos and wanders Middle-earth as a spirit or "wraith" (also mentioned in the video). I can't remember that it is stated in the Simarillion or in the Lord of the Rings, that elves or men were able to chose, if they want to go to the halls of Mandos or not (maybe in the later works like HOME, but I only look from the perspective of J.R.R. Tolkien's work). Even if that was possible, it wouldn't make a big difference. Why should Celebrimbor not go to the halls of Mandos? He could be reincarnated and Sauron does not have the authority to prevent this. I also think there is no case known, where this actually happened. We only know, that "souls" got denied access to the Halls of Mandos, like the Oathbreakers, Saruman or Gorlim (I mention these cases in the video, except for Gorlim). They can be considered wraith. But all those instances are very powerless. The only case, where someone dies and his spirits flies around after his physical death and is still very powerful is Sauron and he is a powerful Maia and had the One Ring (created it). With all that said, my point still stands: Ofc Celebrimbor can become a wraith, but it is very unlikely and Sauron does not have the authority or power to force or curse him into being a wraith. If he becomes a wraith (for whatever reason), he wields no power, because he is not a Maia. Talion is dead. Celebrimbor (and Sauron) don't have the power and authority to bring him back to life or deny him access to the halls of Mandos. As mentioned here in the comments: SoM treats Celebrimbor like he was a Maia.
ThePhilosophersGames Men don't go to the halls of Mandos. It is stated to be unknown what happens to men when they die but also that they will be present in the second making of music.
At the end and during the game celebrembor showed some evil traits especially at the ending. So the thought of him becoming a wraith is fathomble also the reason he might have not told sauron was out of spite instead of self sacrifice
Celebrimbor definitely becomes more and more evil. Agreed. But at least I imagined him as a good guy (in the books) when he was alive. So why should he not go to the halls of Mandos. he had the chance of getting a new body this way (like Glorfindel, who sacrificed himself, died, went to the halls of Mandos, was resurrected in Valinor and later sent back to Middle-earth, to help against Sauron) So my problem is more, that Celebrimbor had to reject the summoning of Mandos on purpose to become a wraith in the first place. But I agree, how he acts in the games, it can make sense, that he becomes a wraith. On the other side, we have his grandfather (Fëanor), who even killed his own kind to reach his goals and get his revenge. Even he was not rejected to enter the Halls of Mandos, but he was not "resurrected".
This is a very tough question. He would be somehow corrupted yes. Like Galadriel said: "In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!" Something like that Celebrimbor could have become too.
These days, you have to be careful, people sometimes see the smallest information as spoilers ^^ I also released this video before SoW was out and I knew from the first trailer footage, that this would include Mordor conquering Minas Ithil (resulting in it becoming Minas Morgul). Not a big spoiler, but still not obvious, if you don't know the books quite well.
![The History of Morgoth [COMPILATION] | Tolkien Explained](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ktet64d9O-c/mqdefault.jpg)
Update: my gaming content will be on my 2nd channel: ua-cam.com/users/TPhGames
(at least some LotR related gaming videos will still be posted here on the main channel though)
If you have further questions, feel free to ask =)
How is your point of view? Do you think, they maybe went a bit far with story shown in the Shadow of War trailer? Or do you see it as an interesting spin-off?
I live the thought of talion running around weakening the defences of sauron in his own revenge story while aragorn, frodo, Gandalf ect all deal the final blow in destroying the ring.
Sounds more like the 2 blue wizards to me.
Well Talion isn’t canon sooo
He becomes one of the wraiths and all his Orcs become Sauron's again.
Achully I believe that talion in Shaw dow of war takes place between 17 years when gandalf left the shire
First time playing this game and I had the same daydream! awesome
I love the auto-captions in this video.
They're telling me that Kelly Rimbaud, the L, did not go to the hall of mondays after he died, but rather fused with an Italian to become a race, and this is the plot of the hit game, Cheddar of Model.
haha, I know there are many mistakes in it. Well somebody in the comments asked for subtitles and so I enabled them. I looked over them a bit and corrected a lot of stuff, but there are so many elvish names + my imprecise pronunciation and you end up with this mess :D I can imagine, it's quite funny.
For me, it says that kilogram board can't transform into a school.
I got kelly rainbow!
@@Sara3346 mine is caleb rimbaud
A fun fact: sauron and balrogs are "siblings". They are all maiar who have gone to the dark side to support morgoth. Moreover, all the 5 wizards are siblings to them too as they are maiar as well.
tyraelpl is siblings the right term just cause there the same race dont mean there brother and sisters
maiar have no parents or children, and as the valar are referred to as siblings a few times in the silmarillion, i think it's fair that the same applies to the maiar.
They are all the "children" of eru illuvatar and created in the same moment, so they are siblings, the difference is:
Valar came first and created the world, after that there came the Maiar, Balrogs and also Ungolianth. There are many of them who never came to this world and have no names because of that.
By the way: At least one Maiar has a child. Luthien Tinuviel is the daughter of the Maiar Melian. Thats why she shines of power like the Noldor even when she could't have be in Valinor at the time of the two trees when the elves of Valinor got their strenght from their light.
Nope. Balrogs were created by the Dark Lord Melkor. While it is true that Melkor is a Valar (Archangel of sorts) the lesser angels weren't created by Archangels but by god. But yes, Sauron is a brother of the other wizards, and if you want a fun fact then the reason for the friendship between Gandalf and the eagles is that Gandalf is the champion of Manwë, King of the Valar and Lord of the Wind.
Afaik, when Melkor has gone to the dark side so to speak, Sauron as well some of the Maiar did the same and joined him thus becoming balrogs. I've never heard that Balrogs were created by Melkor (Morgoth).
I always look at it likes it’s a separate timeline where his stuff is possible, if you look at it through the lens of a Tolkien purist you’ll hate it, but if you take it for what it is, you’ll have an amazing time because who doesn’t want to play as a ranger of Gondor absolutely tearing through orcs
Yes agreed. I still thought a comparison video would be interesting (it was marketed as very lore friendly, same as Shadow of War) and I think from my perspective it was a good decision to make it too ^^ (it was my "break through" video on YT you could say and shifted my channel towards Tolkien content). I think I sound a bit too negative in the video. Game wise I liked palying Shadow of Mordor. Surprising good game.
ThePhilosophersGames oh I agree for the longest time I had no idea how it got in and I found out It didn’t after playing through Shadow of Mordor. I keep it as headcannon though most of the time because I like to think that’s what Sauron didn’t move on the free peoples earlier than he did was because he was dealing with Talion, it kinda gives me a reason why he didn’t just steamroll a weekend Gondor
@@ThePhilosophersGames shadow of Mordor has plenty of lore respect some runes have em even upgrades but. it was dropped with the badass gear oh well being a Nazgul makes it cooler
in shadow of mordor celebrimbor raised an orc army, used mind control, and possessed the ring of power for a while, using the power for evil deeds. in middle earth doing anything "unnatural" was a terrible thing. mind control, even just for uruks, would be a huge offence. could that not make him evil enough? saruman was also against sauron, because he was planning to betray him, it didn't make him any less evil.
Yes, the domination would be considered evil. I think in the video I made the argument, that Fëanor murdered other elves (kin-slaying) to reach his goals and was still granted access to the halls of Mandos. But you have a point. Saruman allied with Sauron at one point and build an army for him. So he was actively working together with Sauron. Celebrimbor at least didn't do that.
ThePhilosophersGames feanor I believe DID go to the halls of mandos but was not reincarnated
Yes, as I said Fëanor went to the halls of Mandos (and he was not allowed to reincarnate).
jjdude00 You should read the Silmarillion.
Did multiple times
I've long been of the opinion that Shadow of Mordor started off as an original IP telling the story of a conflict between a "Dark Lord" and a "Bright Lord" who were each as bad as the other. It's only after Monolith pitched the idea to their Warner Bros overlords that it got saddled with the Middle Earth license.
I suspect that the way Celebrimbor and Sauron mirror each other in the game (both can control orcs, both need hosts to interact with the physical world and so on) is an artifact of that initial concept.
That makes a lot of sense. I always assumed, that the fundamental concepts of the game existed before it was Lord of the Rings.
In the games it's actually a bit blurred if Talion really died or not. He's been called a dead man quite often...then another thing that was said a few times is that he's "banished" from death, which i assume would mean he never went to the Halls of Mandos after he "died" and "merging" with Celebrimbor had a similar effect to a ring of power, turning him into a wraith...or half wraith as the game says. The canon lore however does not say if this is possible or it even says it is not possible.
Well, the time differences are still the most obvious...plot hole? Well that and Celebrimbor's story...
What a shame...i f*cking loved the story of the games...
Talion is one of the most selfless men in middle earth
@Anthony Johnson Nah, i love Sam but he doesn't compare to Talion.
@Anthony Johnson Samwise Gamgee is no man. He's a hobbit.
@Anthony Johnson Of course they do. But remembering what happened to the Witch-king of Angmar and Glorfindel's prophecy regarding his end makes it important to differentiate between "man" and Hobbit in my opinion when talking about Tolkien's universe.
@Anthony Johnson I disagree, Talion could have easily passed on to see his wife and son in Shadow of Morder, but he made the selfless choice to not go and continue his fight to keep the forces of Mordor at bay, even after Celebrimbor betrayed him. He did so for centuries until he succumbed to the powers of Isildurs ring. I know the game ain't canon, but this is just my opinion.
Anthony Johnson That was a lie that Celebrimbor told Talion to ultimately manipulate him for his ultimate plan to dominate Sauron.
Both count doku and and saruman ploted to destroy their "masters" but died by the end of it. Poor Christopher Lee's characters.
:D Yes it's interesting that Lord of the Rings and Star Wars have some parallels (I also made a video about this, but only considering the classic trilogy).
Wait, where did Dooku plot to overthrow Palpatine??
@@christianbethel Sith students always want to kill their master, look up the rule of the two.
Even tho Saruman wasn't a true ally of Sauron
I'm not a very knowledgeable LOTR fan and had just finished Shadow of Mordor and was interested in how they fit among the Cannon lore. I enjoyed the video. It seems Tolkien didn't know how big LOTR would become, I get why they took creative freedoms and I'm glad they did.
Thank you, happy you liked it =) Yes, a very good observation. The legend says, Tolkien when he was not that famous, needed some money and so he sold a movie and merch license for Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit (I think in the 60s; btw. not for the Silmarillion), but he couldn't imagine, that it was possible to actually make movies. Based on this license everything we have is created. But the Tolkien family (Tolkien Estate, not to get confused with Tolkien Enterprises or as they are now called Middle-earth Enterprises, who only have movie and merch rights), esp. his son Christopher Tolkien, is not hat happy about it. So there are still lawsuits going on as far as I know. e.g. if the license includes rights to make video games, etc. Christopher Tolkien hates the movies, I can understand that to a certain degree. So yes, he never thought it would be that big, nor that the movies would have such an impact or success.
ThePhilosophersGames Christopher hates literally everything cept the Lord of the Rings War in the North game cause it's mega book service over movie service and the story was very much like the books over the movies. It was a pretty good game tbh but it was a bit lacking in gameplay.
It doesnt fit in canon lore, period.
@Chosen One i agree you it's a fun alt universe
As far as the Peter Jackson films are concerned, I think the Shadow games fit rather nicely at least. I would have liked to see Legolas or even Aragorn make a cameo. That would have been cool.
Uh Shelob in goth human form? Nah, she simply was just a hungry monster that Sauron left alone to guard Mordor's secret passages. And Isildur and Helm Hammerhand being ring wraiths is BS too.
@@FatGouf The ''goth human form'' was prolly to attract the majority gamer fanbase, which is mostly male players. It's a good attraction strategy, so I guess they weren't shy about stretching it a bit.
Gollum appears in both games and his design is based off of the movies
@@FatGouf The rationale is that one of her parents could take a human form as well.
Sure, that’s not true for the Legendarium, but there’s no reason it can’t be true for the Jacksonverse.
That’s how I view it as well. JRR and Christopher’s works are the main canon, but Peter Jackson’s universe can play fast and loose with details derived from the main canon.
11:50
there's the thing called "arogorn's pants". if something isn't mentioned in the source material, it doesn't mean it couldn't have happened.
second, Kelebrimbor's motivation behind forging a new ring of power was out of pride. he was eager to fix his mistakes by making the new ring pure and untouched by Sauron. in the end the new ring ended up corrupted by the greed, jealousy and hate of Kelebrimbor himself, it wasn't an actual 10th ring of power, but just a manifestation of his own personal quest. also, he certainly can't interact with the material realm without the help of Talion.
about Talion - he never died, so never visited the Halls of Mandos until the very end of the game, along with other nazgûl.
the game fits pretty well into the more loose canon, if you don't take every single word of Silmarillion for the undebatable absolute truth. sometimes canon can be bent slightly, it doesn't really have that much of a lasting effect.
also, all of this that i said does not relate to the excruciatingly immense gaping holes that the second game teared down with the appearance of Allatar and Kelebrimbor in the vision of Hammerhand becoming nazgûl. of course, Rohan didn't exist in the 2nd age. that vision must be a metaphor or something.
i don't like the representation of the plot of Shadow of War, but i adore its concept, so i always advocate in its favor. the Grave Walker is one of my favorite Tolkien-related characters EVER, so that is that.
Thank you for clarifying a lot of stuff here, I just recently played both games this year. I have to say though, in spite of the fact they are not "lore-friendly" in terms of plot, the games still tell an amazing tale from start to finish. I don't have any big issue with the fact that it tells it's own interpretation of events, characters, even the creatures are different (e.g. Uruks replace Orks, Shelob can transform into a human, and Celebrimbor is a very grey character etc). It certainly doesn't try to step on any of the events in the Hobbit and LOTR movies or books.
Yes agreed. I liked the game and it tells a lot of correct lore too and let people dive deeper into it than most other LotR games. Ofc the main plot takes a lot of freedom, but the game is fun to play and a lot of other things work lore wise. I also have a video for Shadow War: ua-cam.com/video/Y-gvR7ioJjA/v-deo.html
The thing I've always thought of with these lotr games is let them be made. Although I thought Lucas made some mistakes with Star Wars one I praise him for is to let others add to the canon or make their own stores in alternate worlds. I always harken back to myths or epics like Beowulf. They were not made with one person writing a story, they were many people telling many different stories weaving them together to make what was remembered. While I think Tokien was a genius and made an amazing story and world. I also personally don't think that world should have a fence around it forever. Whose to say letting others tell their own tales in this world wouldn't make it better, and if they don't tell perfect or good tales, so what. Just because someone wrote something you don't enjoy, it doesn't ruin what Tolkien wrote, too much people seem to think a black mark will ruin the beauty of LOTR, but look at other stories like Star Wars and Harry Potter, they have both had recently bad reviewed movies that are canon and it hasn't ruined peoples enjoyment of the worlds that those movies existed in.
I think when it comes to Tolkien, people study his works and the making of it more than Star Wars, probably because he worked for so long on it and there is a lot of Philology in it. Lucas had for sure ideas for his universe, but it was bigger and more open. Tolkien tried to write a very detailed mythology, where every details is interconnected and referenced, so small mistakes create problems in consistency. A problem I assume Tolkien encountered himself and could not fully solve in his lifetime (like the Orc origin).
Ofc the game does not ruin Tolkien, but they at least advertised it with fitting to the books, but that is not true, because some dates already contradict the timeline. So my intention was to show these differences for people who are interested in this topic. In addition (I notice that to even within myself) hardcore fans can get very defensive and annoyed when things are not fitting the lore. I guess it has to do with the passion for Tolkien's work ans what it means to us.
Well Disney ruined starwars. So they actually have good reason to keep their gates up right now lol
@@ThePhilosophersGames I really think you should look into old star wars legends to see how a story line can really flourish if allowed to flower. Things such as the rakata infinite empire are just super interesting things that don't effect the main plot or messages, but add more interesting parts to the world of starwars. certainly LOTR and star wars are very different in nature and what works for one won't work for others, but still, legends has some of the best stories to really dive into because people really could run with it.
purists, no matter how good the source content often doesn't allow growth and renovation for a larger story to be told. imagine if someone had been able to tell a story of the 4th age, tolkien has started writing on the cults and strange mysteries of the post Sauron world and lost interest, it would be very interesting had someone been allowed to make their own take on the story, or perhaps the men from the east to would have been a great story to tell without effecting the main LOTR story, make up cultures and histories for these people who served sauron.
what im saying is the LOTR universe really had a lot of content that people could have added too, but by keeping it so locked up tight means that potential is lost, for better or worse
I feel that the games are taking a "What if" view in witch Celebrimbor turned on Saron in much the same way as Saruman.
Yes definitely, though they were advertised as very book friendly, which is maybe why some fans react a bit triggered to it ^^ (Still had a good time with it)
@@ThePhilosophersGames that's a really good point, looking back at the advertisements they were super trying to push for this being a official part of the lore. But that really does bring up the whole conversation of what is the official lore, as talking himself implied that the books are written by unreliable narrators and even implies that gondorians edited the text. So in the end Lord of the rings Canon is a funny thing.
@@number1Gameking yes canon is often debatable (I guess most agree on the LotR book and The Hobbit with the Second Edition changes being canon), but at least Tolkien wrote those texts himself 😅
The games are a nice What if scenario in the lore. Like what if celebrimbor's spirit survived and rebelled
Yes. They are also fun, though they advertised it as lore friendly. I think if they advertised it as "what if scenario", it would have been better.
Man. It sucks that the games aren't tied to the books, but I still enjoy them both! Maybe one day someone truly committed can make something that ties to the books that everyone can enjoy. I'm learning to be a teacher and it's encouraging to see someone simplify (within reason) something complicated so anyone can pick it up and be up to speed with everything connected to it. Like good food, it attracts good company!
Yes, that would be interesting. There is a Lord of the Rings mod for Mount & Blade Warband, that is relatively faithful to the books (but it's a "sandbox" game though). I also heard good things about Lord of the Rings Online, but I'm not into MMORPGs. It's a bit strange, that there are not games like this. I think the main reason could be, that the movie license holders (Middle-earth Enterprises) want to market their movie franchise further (which also has differences) and Christopher Tolkien & the Tolkien Estate have no interest to make games.
Thank you :)
You have to check out LOTRO. I hate MMORPG's but I love LOTRO!
You have to check out LOTRO. I hate MMORPG's but I love LOTRO!
go play lotro. thats the closest game to be faithful to tolkien's work
Lotro is the game for you then. It is respectfull towards Tolkien's lore and story and it is basically you helping the Fellowship behind the scenes.
Man I wish a Game Dev like CDPR would make some LOTR games based off the LOTR universe. There are so many different creatures and beast. Exploring in an open world like that would be amazing.
Yes that could be amazing, agreed :)
celticpride859 pluse all legal stuff
I could try and explain some of these things:
1. Talion/Celebrimbor is a unique brand of undead, and the reason why the Hand of Sauron sacrificed Talion's family as well. Sauron was known as the Necromancer for a time, surely he knows various spells on how to deny the gift of man, especially when done preemptively. As for Celebrimbor, perhaps that was part of his punishment for the betrayal? Sauron is all about dominance and control. Having Celebrimbor's soul ready to be shoved in a vessel should he be needed is right up his ally.
2. Maybe, since Talion's physical body is doing the forging, the language on his ring is actually Westron (usually portrayed as English), but using elvish script. Just like how the One Ring is written in Black Speech using the elvish script.
1. The big problem (book lore wise) is, that Sauron does not have the authority to deny the gift of men or the access to the Halls of Mandos. Not even is master Morgoth could do that, e.g. Morgoth was imprisoned in the Halls of Mandos (for 3 Ages) and could not escape against the will of Mandos. Only Madnos can deny access. Also the Game implies, that Talion and Celebrimbor have access to the halls of Mandos.
Necromancy is a bit strange in Lord of the Rings. Some would think it's about having an undead army, but actually it is only about few things:
- Communication with wraiths
- Limited control over evil spirits (probably fallen Maiar, who were once corrupted). The Barrow wights, it is not known what they are exactly. They are a mystery, but they are most likely no ordinary "souls". Same with the Two Wacthers.
- Corruption and transformation of a living being into a undead wraith (Nazgûl), with is noted does not work on dwarves and probably not on elves, only on men and they must be alive.
2. But what is their physical body? Where does it come from ? Talion and Celebrimbor are both dead. Celebimbor also has no super healing powers. The Ring inscription is an interesting point. But it's still strange, that it does not use the proper Tengwar symbols, for the related vowels and consonants ^^
I think the games are a lot of fun cause it puts you in this universe in a different way
Its still a great game and you can think this as a side thing happening while the lore happening
One can think that this Celebrimbor is a piece of his soul that Sauron split to use for his goals its why the Wraith form is so angry and cares more for vengeance
Nobody is perfect maybe he wanted Celebrimbor to improve so it would work better on mortals minds cause he is a divine being and his ego made him have less understanding for the lover beings
He is not interacting with the physicals world he is using the human body to forge it using his knowledge to forge a ring to counter The One Ring
I like the game as well ^^ I think it's a great game.
I mean Talion is also dead and can behave like a spirit himself at times. That's quite inconsistent, esp. in Shadow of War.
In the Shadow of Mordor Appendices, it also states that the Black Hand of Sauron (the game's primary antagonist) MAY have killed the two blue wizards (Pallando and Alatar) and presented their heads to Sauron as a gift. Given that Pallando and Alatar are Istari mariar spirits (roughly comparable to Balrogs in-terms of raw power and fortitude) and the Black Hand is a black Numenorian (a long-lived, strong and powerful human but still mortal), he MAY have been able to defeat one of them but almost certainly not both. At least not simultaneously, that is. However, since we still don't know what happened to Alatar and Pallando, this is just as likely an explanation as any, I suppose. Just a fun fact!
Oh that's an interesting point. I have to say I did not focus much on the collectables and appendix entries in this video (or in the others). But I think they do some quite interesting things there. But I agree with you.
The two Blue wizards were kind of work in progress. At the end of J.R.R. Tolkien's life he changed his mind and the concept completely, so that they were quite successful in the east. I copy it from Tolkien Gateway (tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Blue_Wizards):
Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.
Mitchell Fechter well that explains the fact that there was a broken staff artifact in one of the games
To be honest that explanation alone breaks any sense of immersion I might have had for this game, it is antithetical to the Tolkien's mythos.
I think it would have made a little more sense if shadow of Mordor took place before the events of the hobbit
A few alternative interpretations to SoM could make it more lore friendly (though obviously non-canon).
Sauron has the ability to prevent (temporary) people from going to the Halls of Mandos. At least, he does this for his Nazgul. They continue to exist as long as the ring exists and thus stay out of the Halls. Because in the game-lore Celebrimbor voluntarily wields the ring, Sauron might have been able to tie his fate to the ring as he did with the Nazgul. The ending of the Bright Lord DLC seems to imply something of this order. Celebrimbors fate would then have been similar to the Nazgul after they where 'killed' in the river but he would have been unable to gain a new body.
Infusing beings with spirits does seem to empower them in Tolkiens world. The Barrow Wights are dead bodies who become quite formidible with a spirit infused in them. Werewolfs are superpowered wolfs with spirits in them. It is not a stretch to assume putting an Elf lord spirit into a dying ranger would empower him as well. However, in the game there seems to be a special power of Celebrimbor that Sauron seeks 'the power of the ringmaker'. This is of course made up for the games.
Yes, that is also what I understood from the Bright Lord DLC. The problem is (from the books perspective), that Sauron does not have the power/authority to negate Mandos' call. The Nazgûl are indeed strange, but they did not directly "die". The men wearing those 9 rings were slowly transformed into this new form, becoming the Nazgûl.
The empowering part is correct, but I would argue, that it only works with Maiar or let's say Ainur. Those are spiritual being, that can change their appearance. They are complete with only their spirit. Elves (, men and dwarfs) are not complete with only their spirit on Arda, and so their spirit can't be wielded that easily. Either they go to the halls of Mandos or they haunt the land, without many options of interaction with the physical world, losing all their power. In SoM they treat Celebrimbor like he was a Maiar and not an elf.
The element SoM tries to use, are barrow-wights (as mentioned by you). But those are more the exception to the rule and we don't know exactly what they are. They are described as evil spirits, maybe fallen Maiar. Which would make sense.
I know it's a little bit late, but I have a few disclaimers. First, Talion didn't die, he was dying and the merge with wraith put him in a Limbo(frozen state in time) (That is why when he is separated from Celebrimbor, he starts to dying again and not immediately drops dead.). Second, while Sauron was indeed tutoring under Aule, I don't think that he is all-knowing. I believe that small jewelry, such as rings, were invented much later. That is why he involved the help of the Elves. And when he created the One Ring, he still didn't have a "delicate hand" (you can even say he didn't have a "Silver hand") to stabilise it. So he took Celebrimbor in order to do it. Third, in the end Celebrimbor tried to defeat the Deceiver with his own weapon by putting part of his soul in it when he finished. (That is why the Ring burned blue, partly answered to him and even made him invisible to Sauron). But like many other good guys that believed that they could use the instrument of evil without being corrupted, he failed as well. And after his death he, just like Sauron, became formless but alive.
My comparison is based on what is in the books, so keep that in mind. I also had this discussion many times and I appreciate that so many people are passionate about the story of the game and want to make it work inside Tolkien's universe. But it simply does not work. The biggest argument is, that if Elves could really give humans super powers like that, this wold have been done in the First Age. There were many battles were powerful Men and Elves were killed together and the elves spirits could have just possessed the dying Men and make them an unstoppable force to defeat Morgoth's armies. That is not what happened.
Celebrimbor can't help with the One Ring, because we know he died in Eregion, when Sauron and his Orcs attack. it would be strange to take Celebrimbor prisoner in Eregion, while attacking Eregion and Eriador, already having the One Ring and then bringing him to Mordor to "update" the One Ring and then bring him back to Eregion and kill him there.
"Concerning the Three Rings Sauron could learn nothing from Celebrimbor; and he had him put to death. But he guessed the truth, that the Three had been committed to Elvish guardians: and that must mean to Galadriel and Gil-galad. In black anger he turned back to battle [in Eregion]; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung upon a pole, shot through with Ore-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond."
Note how Sauron here has to take care of Elrond's army. This war was an ongoing conflict that resulted in conquering almost all of Middle-earth. Eregion was just th beginning. Sauron can't just leave the battles behind and fiddle around with his Ring in Mordor and fight with Celebrimbor for power for some time there. That premise does simply not work.
Sauron does not need Celebrimbor to make the One Ring. He was literally the servant of the "God" of Crafting. There is not need for stabilising. It is his master plan, his invention. the Ring becomes a part of his being.
Sauron is a spirit being (an Ainu and one of the Maia). He is a complete being in spirit form, losing his physical form (fana), has some negative consequences for sure here as well, but not on the scale of an Elf or a Human/Men. He can also "wield is will and power into an object.
An Elf is not a spirit being. Elves need a body. They also just can't put their "spirit" or "souls" into things, that is not how they work. Having no body and their soul/sprit not going to the Halls of Mandos is a terrible situation for an Elf and might result in them becoming mad spirits. They 100% would not become a super powerful spirit entity that can melt with an Elf or Men and give them super powers. That is not how Tolkien's metaphysics and afterlife works. Dying does not give an Elf super powers, it's bad for them and they need to go to the Halls of Mandos.
Slitting someone's throat will without treatment kill a human. As a result Talion dies there. An Elf spirit can't heal you or prevent your death. Forces much more powerful would have a word here. Talion himself is also not fully alive in the game. he is kind of a hybrid. When [spoiler] in Shadow of War Celebrimbo leaves Talion, Talion starts dying again from this slit throat wound -> as a result it was not healed. Fusing with Celebrimbor just seems to put the consequences of being deadly wounded on hold. Why would an Elf spirit be able to do this? It's not a "god" (Valar).
The invisibility works by moving somebody into the "Unseen" aspect of Tolkien's world. Sauron as Spirit being lives in that world and can ofc see others there as well. So you can't hide from his eyes using the a Ring.
Souron tourtured calibrimbor, I feel like his methods could have implications on the natural ways of life for any being including elf’s, makeing me think calibrimbors forging of a pure ring could be possible, he is definitely the only one capable of that craft and after he’s lost his body and done so much more to get to the shadow games, and after already in his life makeing better elvin rings, even though still not pure. It just makes sense he would progress to the level he was at eventually. But That being said I’m not sure about the game in its entirety, but I feel calibrimbor has large roles in the future darknesses of the land, and if it isn’t for him crafting more i honestly don’t think the whole story to my understandings that notable, however I haven’t read the books only researched them when needed and went thrugh the games and movies, one last thing I’m trying to get is weather or not souron was destroyed by goloms leap of faith. Cause if he couldent come back eventually I think it also kills the livability of it, idk I think a big part of me wants this universe to be capable of telling endless stories, but the more I’m going into this rabbit hole I’ve never been this lovely quarantine, the more I’m thinking 2 things, 1 it’s just cause the movies and games are diffrent enough that without me looking into the books first it’s just not gonna make sense easy for me until I discover some tad bits I can argue on in the books, and 2 maybe it is just a closed tale
Really great video! I'm especially impressed by the deconstruction of the lettering on the new ring, and how it doesn't make sense.
Great video!
Thank you for mentioning that Celebrimbor was a good guy. I feel like the only thing that really bugs me about this game is how they decided to portray his morality.
yes I 100% agree! That was also what I disliked most. For me Celebrimbor is a tragic hero, who lost everything. he did not tell Sauron where the last rings were, which is a huge deed in my opinion.
@@ThePhilosophersGamesCelebrimbor WAS a good guy though, he was just corrupted by The One.(which i dont think actually happened, you can correct me on this)
That accent just make the name sound more epic. Excellent video, clear and concise.
Thank you, happy you liked it :)
That's all very interesting to me, because I had learned prior to SoM's release that the developers had worked very closely to the Tolkien estate. The developers said that they had worked very hard so that their game didn't contradict any cannon. Their intention was that while the game would never be accepted as cannon, it would be made so that it COULD be considered cannon.
This didn't work well for the main story, but a lot of lore implications in the game are correct and it allows players to probably dive deeper into the lore, than most other games. Not sure about working together with the Tolkien Estate, because I'm pretty sure there is still a lawsuit going on, that includes the Estate disagreeing with making video games with the movie and some product rights (including toys, but not video games) and harming Tolkien's legacy. www.theguardian.com/books/2012/nov/20/tolkien-estate-sues-hobbit-producers
@@ThePhilosophersGames they’re talking about the gambling video games that wb made in the article not the shadow games the worked closely with Tolkien estate with the shadow games then the money grabbing producers made gambling video games with lotr characters
This is an incredibly well thought out video and a brilliant explanation of the lore of Tolkien. I agree with you on many points, such as Sauron not needing any help crafting the Ring and the Dark Lord not being able to conduct a secondary war against Celebrimbor in the time frame given. The only thing I think might be plausible is the wraith scenario.
In the Bright Lord dlc of Mordor, Sauron and Celebrimbor are constantly exchanging threats. Sauron says to the elf lord several times he will never walk the Western Shore. In other words, its pretty much stated Sauron cursed Celebrimbor, binding his soul to Mordor with much of his power intact. Part out of revenge, part because he foresaw the soul or 'fea' of the elf lord might prove useful in future. While this curse might not have been accepted by Eru, could it be Sauron as a divine being had enough power himself to make the curse stick? And as for Talion, it could be he never died. But was in the process of bleeding out when Celebrimbor bound himself to the Ranger. This is supported when the two are separated for a short time near the end of the game and Talion starts to die once more. Celebrimbor can only interact with the physical world because he's using Talion as an anchor, working through his body.
Might make sense, might not. Still appreciate the games for what they are though. Once again, great video and it would be swell to hear your thoughts. Have a good one!
Thank you for you comment :D Still can't believe I got so many nice and detailed comments here and also so many views. Much appreciated.
When Mandos summons a "Soul", nobody (except Eru) can prevent that, not even Sauron. I think it ii was mentioned somewhere, that if even Morgoth (the strongest of the Valar) would enter the Halls of Mandos, he can not leave without Mandos permission, so the Vala Mandos has an incredible authority here. Also, if Sauron or Morgoth were able to prevent others from entering the Halls of Mandos , they would have made use of it in the past. E.g. Glorfindel died, got reincarnated and returned to Middle-earth and for example later saved Frodo.
ThePhilosophersGames
Ah well then the only way it makes sense is if Eru did indeed accept the curse. Which I don't see him doing since it came from Sauron and Celebrimbor was a pretty decent guy even if in this story he got seduced by power.
The problem with adapting any of Tolkien's work is that its so iron-tight. He really did think up backstory for almost everything. Which is both impressive and a problem at the same time. It drives many content creators up the wall since there's almost no room for new creative ideas.
Still I enjoy the games. They're very fun and a cool what-if scenario. Thanks for your feedback and the time you took to respond!
ThePhilosophersGames The Fëa itself can refuse the summons and remain lingering in Middle-earth, then becoming one of the Houseless. Refusing the summons is a sign of taint, and makes them particularly susceptible to the control of Morgoth and Sauron.
Two of the 'one' rings, an OP ring maker and orcs from different parts of England is my understanding of the plot so far (just finished 1st act of the game) , oh and ofc shelob who turns into the actress Kate Beckinsale so as not to scare the crap out of Talion when she's caressing the zombie rangers face. As for Lore, I really like the artifacts they mention, and I think they've made most of those Actually lore friendly.
Yes the artefacts are great, they definitely are some interesting dives into the lore. Shadow of War (compared to Shadow of War) reduced this part a bit though, if I remember correctly, which is a bit of a pity.
I like the Lotr lore and everything surrounding it but its so complicated but this video made it easier to understand somethings so good on you... i love shadow of mordor and shadow of war :) so thnx
Happy you liked it :) Yes LotR lore is indeed a very complex topic ^^
In case you haven't seen it, I also have a detailed video about (only) Shadow of War:
ua-cam.com/video/Y-gvR7ioJjA/v-deo.html
Thanks so much for making this video. I was highly confused about how the game fit into the lore bu your video was very good at clearing that up.
No problem. I'm happy it helped you =)
Sir I salute for your serious work on this matter as well as your balanced attitude. Like another comment says the Shadow of Mordor/War games are fan fiction but they are the best fan fiction to date really
Thank you, much appreciated! Yes, totally agree.
So, I tried to made SoM series fix with Tolkien’s story:
- Remove Golum and Sauron from the game. Move the timeline
to the period when Lich King have just returned the Mordor.
- Lich King will become the greatest enemy instead Sauron.
- Instead crafted all of these Rings, Celebrimbor just
crafted three Elf Rings.
- Remove any Necromancy and Ressurection from the game.
New element of the story:
- Instead is a soul which be ressurection, Celebrimbor is a
member of Nazgul. Sauron turned him to a Nazgul before use his body as the
banner in the war. The Alliance thought he had died while he actually still “
alive”. Although still under Sauron’s control, Celebrimbor still hold some of
his mind, thank to some spell he prepared before Sauron had captured him. Understand
Sauron’s system of Rings, he is trying to get out of the Sauron’s influence,
and revenge again.
- in SoM:
+ Celebrimbor saved Talion, and ordered him finish a series
of question to kept him remove One Ring’s influence enough to fight against Sauron
force against.
+ To revenge, both Celebrimbor and Talion refuse return to
Hall of Mandos.
+ Until now, my idea is: Celebrimbor try to made another
system of Rings. A group of Nazgul but under another Maia instead Sauron, to
fight against Dark Lord.
+ May be that Maia will be:
* Saruman: who have the ambition. Know much about magic and
know how to cheat “ Sauron Ring’s influence”, he ready to help when know that
Celebrimbor still “ alive”. A group of indepedence Nazgul, but under his
influence. That is the great for him.
* Balrog: which may be more darker and terrible than even
Sauron.
* Alatar or Pallando?
+ With the help of “ that Maia”, Celebrimbor and some cheat.
Talion now become the independece Nazgul - who have enough power of Nazgul, but
not be influence too much by Sauron.
+ In the end of SoM, Talion finally released Celebrimbor
from Sauron. Talion+ Celebrimbor, now in one “body”, ready to craft their New
Nine Rings.
- In SoW:
+ After crafted New Nine Rings, Nazgul Talion/Celebrimbor
now give it to their Orcs leader.
+ The Nazgul War begin, between Talion’s Nazgul and The
Eights ( removed Celebrimbor).
+ Both Talion/ Celebrimbor have to fight against Sauron
sometimes, in their mind ( look like Evil Within)
...
Very interesting and excellent presentation, thank you for uploading it! I had given myself an explanation to Celebrimbor's presence in the Shadow of Mordor's alternate timeline, though I knew many, many rules and history were being broken and altered. :)
I had read in _Morgoth's Ring_ (very good book) that an Elf's fëa, its spirit, cannot be brought to the Halls of Mandos, but is summoned. This summons, "proceeds from just authority, and is imperative, yet it may be refused." "...Not all of these are kindly or unstained by the Shadow. Indeed the refusal of the summons is in itself a sign of taint." This could possibly insinuate that Celebrimbor refused the summons of Mandos to take revenge on Sauron. That is my weak explanation to the game's story, though I know it to be complete error :)
I heartily agree with you when you say that you wish they had taken fewer freedoms! Celebrimbor is one of my very favourite elven characters and he was a very good guy. I enjoyed Shadow of Mordor as a game, but I don't like how they changed his character to be power hungry and desiring revenge so desperately. It really dampens his high, noble spirit that it was.
Apologies for the long text. I very much enjoy your videos!
Yes, Morgoth's Ring (History of Middle-earth) has some explanations about Fëa and hröa, but because some of them have no counterpart in the told story or lore in Lord of the Rings, Hobbit, the Silmarillion or even Unfinished Tales I usually ignore them. But I have to admit, that the concept of refusing of the summoning of Mandos makes sense. So I agree, that's definitely a possibility, but I would argue, that even his "crazy" grandfather didn't refuse the summoning and went to the halls of Mandos.
Agreed. I would also say, that in SoM and SoW Celebrimbor is much more like his grandfather Fëanor and not like - how I imagine - Celebrimbor.
Indeed and well said, my friend. These games are definitely what we might consider "fan-fiction": interesting and entertaining, but in the end changing too much of Tolkien's universe for our liking. :)
They should make the movie the shadow of war. To see how it all began when the Hobbit started.
I have a question and since it seems like this video is still pretty active I thought I’d ask here. What happens to hobbits when they die? Men go somewhere unknown. Elves go to valinor and the dwarves wait for the end of the world I believe. But what about hobbits?
As far as I know they share the same fate as men, because they are very closely related to them (they are men too you could say).
Beanyundead made a theory that it was actually saruman that was trying to get Celebrimbor by controlling the black hand
That's an interesting thought. I wonder what role he could play in Shadow of War.
Even though I'm a bit late, there is a scene in Shadow of Mordor where Celebrimbor said "Sauron and Saruman both seek for the power of the ringmaker". Monolith might have picked up this in the Story of Shadow of War.
I think the game is supposed to be based in the movie universe. That's why the designs of the characters and creatures are almost identical to the movies. It also explains why the game differs from the books.
Yes it looks like this, but they also marketed it as book friendly. I think that was the reason why I wanted to make this video, because there was some confusion. It was also my first "breakthrough" on YT, so it was a good decision ^^
@@ThePhilosophersGames Yeah I really appreciate your videos and I love to see the comparisons you make. I love the books and the movies and I have always thought that it's impossible for anyone apart from the Tolkeins to make something entirely consistent with the books. Heck even they had trouble with keeping continuity sometimes.
Yes it is probably impossible. Alone the problem, that the film companies and game companies don't own the rights for the Silmarillion and so on. Amazon probably has some extended rights, but it's also just a fraction of what there is.
@@ThePhilosophersGames Yeah I always hear people go on about the rights to the Silmarillion. I always thought since it's directly connected to the lotr it should be fine to use. Very odd how they could only get the rights to the Lord of the rings and the hobbit.
@@wookieezzz2551 Yes Tolkien sold the Film and some merchandise rights of LotR and The Hobbit in the 60s (he needed some money). he thought it was impossible to makes film out of them anyway. However that's the reason why his family/the Tolkien Estate does not own the Film rights for those. Right now they are with a company called Middle-earth Enterprises (formerly known as Tolkien Enterprises). So if you want to show LotR and Hobbit era stuff you need to buy a license from them. The Silmarillion was publish after Tolkien's death also all the other works which were composed/edited by J. R. R. Tolkien's son Christopher Tolkien (who also worked with his father together). And they don't have the rights.
It's quite likely that if Tolkien would not have sold his rights in the 60s, we would not have movies or very different ones. Same with the games. Interestingly there was a very long lawsuit going on between the Tolkien Estate and Middle-earth Enterprises and friends, because games are not films and not merchandise. So in the Estate's opinion they don't have the rights to make games at all. But it seems they found an agreement, but we don't know the details.
For the Amazon series, Amazaon works together with the Tolkien Estate. So they can't show LotR and Hobbit stuff and it seems they only got a few rights. Must be complicated. Esp. I don't understand how the rights for the appendices work. Middle-earth Enterprises has the rights too, but the Amazon series also uses the Appendices, which is weird. But it can be due to overlapping stories in different works or maybe it's part of an out of court agreement f one of the lawsuits.
The most likely answer to why Celebrimbor wields the power he has in the SoM universe is that his power is directly linked to the One Ring. He wielded the One and used it's powers extensively, forcing his will over orcs he "purified" while growing increasingly more paranoid, ruthless, violent and power-hungry. When Sauron finally killed him, his soul had been stained enough that he was denied the passage to Halls of Mandos and forced to wander Mordor until the One was destroyed.
This seems to be the case, for Celebrimbor acts quite coldly to everything, and his powers seem to be drawn from the one, or at least from a memory of it's power. A power to dominate minds and bend them to your will is pretty much the description of the One.
I would say, even if the One Ring is destroyed, this will not redeem Celebrimbor, if his deeds would deny him access to the Halls of Mandos. This would be an eternal thing. Also he fought against Sauron and his grandfather and uncle's did comparable things (e.g. murdered the Teleri elves to steal their ships, so they could sail to Middle-earth for revenge against Morgoth) and they got not denied access to the Halls of Mandos - ofc they were not allowed to reincarnate.
In the SoM (and I guess in teh SoW) story Celebrimbor becomes more and more like another version of Sauron. The devs wanted to show what would happen, if someone like Galadriel, Saruman or Gandalf would have taken the One Ring.
Love your videos very detailed 💜
This one is my first lore related video and a little breakthrough for my channel (so a special video for me). Happy you enjoyed it ^^
Ok im replaying the games and i found something that looks minor but could be huge. When picking up a gondorian artifact(rudder) at Nurn the voice, i forgot the lady's name wonders if it was a slave who used it or a HUNGARIAN corsair. That to me is either an oversight or whoever is behind the game wants to say that the real world somehow exists in Tolkiens world and people know about it.
Yes really looks like an oversight, though Arda is supposed to be a mythological version of earth far in the past. There is even a story written by Tolkien where an Anglo-Saxon man (Ælfwine) from the 10th century sails over the ocean and finds the straight road and goes to Aman (Tol Eressëa) meeting the Elves and learning the lore from them. So there is a real world connection between Tolkien's universe and the real world, but the real world lies far in the future, so Hungarian corsairs make no sense.
The timeline and the travels would work, if Sauron captures Celebrimbor and his family in Eregion instead of killing him. After the War of the Elves and Sauron has concluded, the events of the game happen. In the game, Celebrimbor is forced by Sauron to forge the one ring. The creation of the one ring would thus take place after the war. The realization that Annatar is Sauron what the ring of power are intended for could still take place before this war. I do not know whether the canon states that the one ring already existed at the time of this war.
From the game perspective, the reason why all sources state that Sauron created the one ring alone is that Celebrimbor is not heard of again after war until Talion's story starts. Celebrimbor can therefore not tell his story. It is thus believed that Sauron killed him in Eregion and forged the one ring himself.
In the game, I believe that when the one ring was created, not only the live and faith of Sauron but also that of Celebrimbor were tied to the one ring. For this reason, Celebrimbor's spirit did not enter the Halls of Mandos. His spirit is bound to the one ring.
In the game lore, we further see Celebrimbor wield the one ring in a full-out assault on Sauron without succumbing to Sauron's influence. Any normal elf would immediately become a puppet of Sauron while doing so. This is only possible if Celebrimbor has a very special relation with the one ring. His spirit being bound to the one ring would be such a relation.
In the canon, we see Sauron affect the minds of living beings and influence the physical world while being in spirit form. He is able to do this because his life is bound to the one ring. If we accept that Celebrimbor's spirit is also bound to the one ring, it is not far stretched to believe that Celebrimbor could do the same. This is how Celebrimbor can interact with Talion and keep him from dying.
Another argument brought up in the video is that book Celebrimbor is too good of a guy to do all the evil things that game Celebrimbor does. It is possible and even likely that Celebrimbor being bound for thousands of years to Sauron via the one ring will leave some lasting effects.
Accepting that Celebrimbor has been corrupted this way, it is plausible that his motive has become to replace Sauron. To do this, he would have to take full and sole control of the one ring. As he cannot banish Sauron from the one ring, he decided to go another path: Create a new ring of power and bind his, and only his, live to that ring. If Celebrimbor now managed to somehow throw the one ring into the fires of mount doom, he would effectively have taken Sauron's place for good. This answers the question in the video about why Celebrimbor would want to create a new ring.
Finally, one critic from the video is that Celebrimbor is but an elf and Sauron is a powerful Maiar. It is therefore implausible that they could wield a similar amount of power. The real question here is how much power Sauron got from being a Maiar and how much he got from the ring magic. If the ring magic was his main source of power, then this could be replicated the by a mere elf.
I think this addresses all the plot holes described in the video. :)
However, I do believe that there are some other plot holes. For example, what makes Celebrimbor so special that Sauron needed him to create the rings? In the book lore, Sauron makes Celebrimbor create most of the rings to win the trust of their future wearers as elfs, in contrast to Sauron, are considered trustworthy. The game lore does away with this explanation but does not replace it.
Sorry for the late answer.
No that does not work. The One Ring is forged before the War. The One Ring and Sauron using it is the reason why the Elves of Eregion know that Annatar must be Sauron. Some had a suspicion, but nobody knew.
Celebrimbor is captured and killed in a specific year (Second Age 1697) and for this idea to work it must all happen in that year (and most likely in less than a year) else it contradicts the timeline of the book. That does in my opinion not work either. Esp. you must consider that with the Sack of Eregion (where Celebrimbor was captured probably at the end) the War was not over. It continued for 4 more years and Sauron tried to conquer the rest of Middle-earth (with Lindon and Imladris/Rivendell being under Siege all the time) and we have accounts of Sauron being present. When Sauron lost, he also returned to Mordor and moved "classically" (walk, ride a horse). He did not fly or teleport, because he almost got caught by Númenor on his retreat and he and his guards was all that was left (Nazgûl did not exist yet). You need like 2 month from the Shire back to Mordor (if you travel 50km/31 miles every day).
No There are immortal witnesses of the events in Eregion: Elrond and Celeborn. Elrond tried to defend Eregion, but was pushed back and almost killed. He retreated to the Misty Mountains and funded Imladris/Rivendell as stronghold there. We can read that Celebrimbor's body was put on a pole and carried through the streets as some kind of cruel banner. Beyond Elrond and Celeborn who fought there, there were also survivors, who fled to Imladris. It was later discussed if Eregion should be rebuild. The wise Elves did not forget Celebrimbor. He was smart enough to hide the 3 Rings of Power before the war (in Lindon and Lothlórien) and he did not reveal the location of the Rings under torture to Sauron. That's also a weird argument. We can read that Celebrimbor died in Eregion in the books and the one Ring existed already. There is no way that this works in the timeline of the books or makes any sense.
Why is Celebrimbor bound to the One Ring? And why would this override the power of Mandos? Sauron is not more powerful and to create a Nazgûl you must transform a person into this state (the person can't die), which was not possible with Elves anyway it seems, because all Nazgûl were once Men. Sauron is bound to the One Ring because the one Ring is a part of Sauron. Sauron is a spirit being and he put a part of his spirit (will and power) into the One Ring. That is not possible for Celebrimbor in of itself (and in addition also not possible chronologically).
> In the game lore, we further see Celebrimbor wield the one ring in a full-out assault on Sauron without succumbing to Sauron's influence.
Yes and that is total nonsense. It simply doesn't work in the timeline (as explained) and it makes no sense inside the universe. The whole point of the One Ring is that nobody can wield it except for Sauron. The main problem here is, that Shadow of War was advertised as lore friendly and not as an "what if" scenario. And the what if ignored that Celebrimbor is not a good candidate for getting the One Ring. Galadriel and Gandalf both could have gotten the One Ring. And if they wielded the One Ring and managed overcoming Sauron's will for the most part too, they would still turn into Sauron 2.0. They don't need to be bound to the One Ring in the first place.
> we see Sauron affect the minds of living beings and influence the physical world while being in spirit form
No Sauron can do this because he is a spirit being and immensly powerful (even without the One Ring o before he made it). He still controls his servants and armies without the One Ring in the Third Age. The One Ring was a trick to control the Elves (which did not work) with some beneficial side effects for Sauron.
As explained Celebrimbor was not bound to Sauron and my point is more that this fictive change of SoM/SoW does the character of Celebrimbor no justice. Celebrimbor is a tragic figure in the lore, but he is not driven by power or madness like his grandfather. If it was Fëanor and not Celebrimbor, all this would make more sense character wise. Also a wraith can't deny the Gift of Men. When Talion dies, he is dead - by the power of the most powerful entity in existence. The Nazgûl only work because the Men they were did not die, but were transformed into this state. Also it was needed that they wear the 9 Rings of Power and Sauron the One Ring for this transformation to work. Another option would be the Morgul-blade, but both were not present with Talion too. The Morgul-Blade is also a strange weapon. Talion "not dying" because Celebrimbor wants it so, is though not a good explanation when messing with death itself.
No it does not answer the question, because of all people in the world of Tolkien, Celebrimbor knows best that making Rings is not a good idea. And why not just destroy the One Ring and make no new Ring? Why did Celebrimbor not run to Mount Doom and threw into the fire while he was in Mordor and had the One Ring? And that is why those Rings are a bad idea. But ofc Celebrimbor can't make a Ring like the One Ring. he can only make Rings of Power, the slave rings.
I hope that clarifies my points further.
@ThePhilosophersGames
> Sorry for the late answer.
Thanks for even reading and taking the time to reply :)
I agree with you that finding a way to make the timeline fit is really hard. I do not have enough book knowledge to argue with you here. :) Your main point is that Sauron would have to interrupt his war for the events of the game to take place and that there is not enough time for this interruption. My point is that, if you can somehow make the game events happen after the war, you can resolve the problem of not enough time. However, you run into other problems like the One Ring having to be forged after the war and Celebrimbor having to be alive at that point. So you need an explanation for why the elves felt that Sauron was linked to the rings that differs from Sauron using the One Ring. It is difficult to make it work.
A thing that I overlooked in your video is that the black gate was no longer guarded by Gondor at the time of Talion. I do not really have an explanation for this.
Personally, I think the likeliest explanation is that the game authors just did not look enough into time lines. However, if we really wanted to look for a deeper explanation, it is possible that the game authors were only allowed to draw from Lord of the Rings book and film but not Silmarillion material. As far as I understand, you need to negotiate with different entities to get licenses. Not making the time lines work could therefore be on purpose to defend against any legal claims of using Silmarillion material.
> > we see Sauron affect the minds of living beings and influence the physical world while being in spirit form [which he can do because of the One Ring]
> No Sauron can do this because he is a spirit being and immensly powerful
You argue that every Maiar or Valar could influence Middle-Earth just because they are Maiar or Valar. I do not think that this is the case. It was possible to cast Morgoth into the void and prevent his return to Middle-Earth this way. If he could still influence Middle-Earth from there, he would do so, yet he does not. Sauron has also been cast into the void, yet he can influence Middle-Earth. There is therefore something special with Sauron. My understanding is that the One Ring was his anchor in Middle-Earth that prevented him from truly being cast into the void. This is the reason why he cannot return once the One Ring is destroyed.
> And why would this override the power of Mandos?
If being bound to the One Ring can keep Sauron in Middle-Earth, then it should also work for other beings whose spirit is tied to a ring. As long as the spirit is held in Middle-Earth, it does not go to the void or Mandos.
> Why is Celebrimbor bound to the One Ring?
Maybe because he - according to game lore - was there when it was forged. Maybe because - according to game lore - he forged it. Maybe some different reason. As I wrote, the fact that Celebrimbor was - according to game lore - even necessary for the forging is a mystery, if not a plot hole. In game lore, only Celebrimbor was able to make rings. Not Sauron. Sauron only taught Celebrimbor how to do it without being able to do it himself. My argument is that according to game lore Celebrimbor is bound to the One Ring but the game lore does not state many details. If we accept that Celbrimbor is bound to the One Ring, many of the other things you point out start to make sense. If we do not accept it, then my argumentation breaks down. This is a very central element of my argumentation.
To be fair, the books are also pretty thin on where the ring magic comes from and how it really works. So I do not feel that it is fair to only blame the game for being vague here.
I do not know whether the books explain why Sauron did not make any rings before Eregion events and why he did not create any afterwards. Nazgûl are pretty dope servants. Having some more would be useful. The game lore would fill this gap as without Celebrimbor Sauron cannot make any rings.
> [Discussion about Celebrimbor wielding the One Ring against Sauron]
> The whole point of the One Ring is that nobody can wield it except for Sauron.
If you formulate it as "the point of the One Ring is that nobody can wield it except the spirit(s) bound to it", and accept that Celebrimbor is bound to it, then the game story makes more sense.
> And why not just destroy the One Ring and make no new Ring?
My argument is that being bound to the same ring as Sauron corrupted Celebrimbor. For this reason, he seeks total power. Destroying the One Ring before the new one would safe Middle-Earth but corrupted Celebrimbor would not get what he wants. In game lore we can see this clearly when Nazgûl-Isildur is killed. His corrupted form wants to take Sauron's place.
> Why did Celebrimbor not run to Mount Doom and threw into the fire while he was in Mordor and had the One Ring?
In game-lore, I believe that Sauron guarded Mount Doom in the time between the One Ring's forging and the battle where Celebrimbor loses it. For this reason, he needed an attack force to access Mount Doom.
Without Mount Doom, the One Ring cannot be destroyed.
(Maybe destroying Mount Doom somehow should have been prio 1 for Sauron... I digress.)
> Also a wraith can't deny the Gift of Men. When Talion dies, he is dead
I do not think that he dies. Ring magic keeps his wounds closed to prevent him from bleeding out and thus dying. First, it is the One Ring that keeps his wound closed, via the will of Celebrimbor. The works because of Celebrimbor's spirit being tied to the One Ring and thus Celebrimbor can use some of the rings powers. When the new ring is forged we briefly see Celebrimbor's ghost leaving Talion. This is the moment where Celembrimbor ceases to be tied to the One Ring and thus it is also the moment where it stops keeping Talion alive. Talion must therefore put on the new ring to keep his wound shut. When he looses the new ring, we see Talion bleeding heavily before taking one of the nine rings which seals his wound again.
However, I do agree that there is one plothole/mystery here: Why the heck did Celebrimbor out of all people chose Talion? Maybe it has to do with the amnesia of game-Celebrimbor which is not well explained. Maybe he was not able to choose anyone before that and just picked the first person he could once he was able to.
> The main problem here is, that Shadow of War was advertised as lore friendly and not as an "what if" scenario.
> [...]
> Celebrimbor is a tragic figure in the lore
I fully agree that the game story is not close to something that Tolkien would write. It does not fit his style. I also fully agree that picture the game and books paint of Celebrimbor differ significantly. However, that is not the point of the discussion. :) The discussion is about whether one can make the story work in a logical sense. It is not about whether the original author would like it.
Getting the Eregion timeline to work seems really difficult. Beyond that, I think the story can be made to work. I'm not saying that it is a good story though.
> Sauron is not more powerful and to create a Nazgûl you must transform a person into this state (the person can't die), which was not possible with Elves anyway it seems, because all Nazgûl were once Men.
I do not think that it is relevant for the discussion, but from where do you have the knowledge that elves cannot become Nazgûl? My understanding was that it was just never tried. This means that the effect of putting one of the nine rings onto an Elve is unknown.
i think most people knew this would not be cannon within the books the bigger question is is it cannon within the movies
They marketed it as very friendly towards the book lore, which it's clearly not. Hard to say how aware people are, who didn't red the books. I personally think it fits the films more, but no idea what the exact policy was. I assume they have to ask Middle-earth enterprises for the story first, so it could be film canon.
Fantastic video! This helps me enjoy Shadow of Mordor with a clean conscience haha
Thank you :) Have fun :D If you play the new one, maybe check the other video :P (shameless self-promotion)
ua-cam.com/video/Y-gvR7ioJjA/v-deo.html
I beat shadow of mordor and i was confused how it could connect to lord of the rings this cleared it up
Really interesting video ! It is all very clear for everybody to understand and at the same time you go deeply in Tolkien's universe. It is a really rich lore, hugely more complex than just a transposition of catholicism or northern religion into fantasy, as I sometimes hear.
As you explain, there is lot of things that does not match between books and the game. Nonetheless, I think the game is pretty brilliant. For example, it follows Tolkien when he describes mankind mortality as a "gift" : at the end, after Talion craved for joining his dead family during the whole game, he eventually accept to stay in Mordor to figt Sauron, even if he "do not want to" ; we might argue that the game becomes really repetitive we finish it (and that's true), but it fits with Talion's choice : he is doom to repetitive life to help fighting Sauron, it is Sisyphean.
I also liked the DLC "Lord of Light", which is an illustration of what Galadriel says to Frodon in The Lord of the rings : even if Celebrimbor is a good guy as you say, by our action he becomes a kind of symetric of the Dark lord. He may thinks he serves the light, but in the end he acts exactly like Sauron does. The brilliant idea is that his army is formed of orcs, exactly like Sauron's army ; so it is also reprensented in the gameplay.
I hope this is understandable, I am not really good in English ^^
Thank you. Yes I agree with you. Shadow of Mordor dives probably deeper into the lore than most other games. I answered to someone here in the comments and I talked about Gorlim who betrayed Beren's father Barahir. And I'm pretty sure there is a reference in the game. Shadow of Mordor does many things right. It's a great game, even though I would personally prefer, if it wouldn't mess too much with some very essential topics.
But I'm still happy, that the game exists.
Nice video , really help me understand more about the Tolkien universe
Thank you, happy to hear that =)
So it’s canon to the movies but not the books
Yes probably more to the films, which makes sense, because a different company (Middle-earth-Enterprises, former known as Tolkien Enterprises) owns the film rights, while the Tolkien Family (Tolkien Estate) only owns the book rights for the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings (J. R. R. Tolkien sold the film and merchandise rights in the 60s). I guess Middle-earth Enterprises created their own LotR film universe and the games are based on the merchandise rights and are part of that I assume (at least since WB Games does LotR games; EA had the license too once and some of their games feel different).
we do see sauron take form in the game (I believe the game uses the same idea that sauron needs a strong ring of power to gain his power back and take form like in the movie although the movies only deal with the one ring, I know the book he is always present just in a weakened state). although I don't think the rings of power are necessarily for control anymore. sauron took back all the dwarves rings, sauron can control the ring wraiths without the one ring so he doesnt really need their rings, and the elves don't wear their rings while sauron is present in arda. so if they do in fact have sauron only take form with a ring of power maybe he gets a hold of ours? I believe we are becoming more and more corrupt throughout shadow of war the longer we hold the ring. you can hear celebrimbor say before the boss fight let us take back what is ours and before the siege he says something similar.
Now I don't think it's the one ring. I think it's s different ring of power. I seen a video with a good explanation. like in the first game anytime talion finds a talisman from celebrimbor past he cries out in agony when he touches it. when the ring slips on his finger in the trailer he cries out in pain and then we gained a new ability anytime we found one. I think we take celebrimbors talismans and use them to forge this ring. it's not gold and its made out of other metal and the cries of pain remind me from the first one all those cutscenes so I think they were on to something. they said it's the pain and memories we gain power from and so we take all those and forge this new ring which gives us emense power.
I think it's all about power in the game and not control with regard to the ring we forge. maybe sauron finally gets celebrimbors spirit to join his and that's how he comes back (spoilers ahead) like at the end of shadow of mordor before we stop him. I think the black hand when calling celebrimbor at the beginning of shadow of mordor he expected him to merge with himself instead of talion. but celebrimbor saw talion and merged with him instead. this game is amazing tho. and shadow of war is gonna be even better. it wouldn't suprised me if shadow of war won a bunch of awards again, including game of the year. I can not wait for it. august is too far away
Thank you for making this video; I really enjoyed it. I love the books, PJ films, Shadow of Mordor game... and really like it when other folk can see that different media versions of the same story, though not canon and sometimes close to fan fiction, still hold value and interest. I thought that Monolith Productions had made a pretty good fist of creating an evocative and rich version of Mordor for Players to explore in SoM. I can’t wait to see what happens with Shadow of War. You did a great job of explaining the book lore differences to a potentially non-read audience and I believe that anything that brings a greater audience nearer to the books is a good thing. In fact, I may print and wear a PhilosophersGames 'I’m as canon as possible' t-shirt someday. Again, thanks. ;)
Thank you. I agree and I hope some people might become interested in the books. I'm also interested to see how Monolith develops their game concepts further.
Haha that would be funny (bzw. that's an awesome line for a t-shirt :D). I'm very happy, that this video gets such a positive response and enjoy the interaction here. So thanks to you too.
Still Sauron was a Maiar and in the time that is not documented in the books who knows what he did to Celebrimbor. It must have to do something with the ritual, I would say. Somehow Celebrimbor became a wraith. When Saurons minions summoned this Celebrimbor-Wraith he merged with the dying Talion to have a body again and he uses the power of the rings he created, that are kinda a part of him aswell as a part of Sauron, to let him survive any wound. As long as the ring is destroyed after the game's story is finished it is "acceptable".
It is somewhat documented what Sauron did in that time (if I understand you correctly here): he conquered Middle-earth. He was in war with the elves and dwarfs for several years. As mentioned in the video, this is also how Imladris/Rivendell was founded as one of the last bastions not controlled by Mordor. Only with the help of Númenor they could beat Sauron, else he would have won. (In the Unfinished Tales you can also read, that orcs carried the dead body of Celebrimbor on a pole through Eregion at that time.
The Rings of Power are not known to have a "will" of their own as the One Ring. I also think that Sauron could create the One Ring and put part of his will into it because, he is a Maia - a sprit being, that can have a physical form, but are not bound to it. Elves and co are not and only "complete" with a body. So they can't build an artifact similar to the "One Ring".
As mentioned in the video it is very difficult for Celebrimbor to become a wraith. Sauron's power is not great enough to overcome the authority of Mandos. I assume the Nazgûl never got summoned into the halls of Mandos and were just "transformed" into this wraith state, but it seems, that it does not work with elves and dwarfs.
celebrimbor talks about the death of men in the game. he says something like the discovery of what awaits after death is for men along. that is the gift of men. or something like that. it's in shadow of mordor. I've been replaying it getting hyped for shadow of war and that's what it said.
Hey man, thanks for making this video; it was very informative. I can't wait for Shadow of War!
No Problem :D Thank you for watching. Yes, I'm looking forward to it too.
As a ghost celebrimbor can't access the physical form but while his spirit is residing inside the party of talion which is a physical form he's using that and in the game he was taught how to forge rings of Power by Sauron style that's how he knows how to create it far weaker than sauron's sure he ain't no angel demon but both his will and Talons will and Spirits are definitely put into the ring and celebrimbor was cursed by Sauron so he couldn't go back to Heaven until the the black hand was killed but talian and convinced him to stay and fight
Having an alliance with someone or a group don't always mean they are really a part of the alliance.
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer meaning to know about them, how the function and their needs.
If you put a ferrel dog in a dog house with 6 feet of chain there's no way in hell he's going to let you to the dog house.
Balrogs could be a similar situation. Like dragons they feel they are invincible.
If you were the Balrog in Moria and living the way he lived, would you ever consider that anyone could come in and take you out?
I have to admit I made this video such a long time ago, that I can't really remember what I said in the Balrog section. I think I discussed the idea that Sauron could not control a Balrog, but maybe he is an ally. When Shadow of War came out (I think 6 month after I released this video) I also learnt that the Balrog was not an ally of Sauron at all and just a weird "side quest".
@@ThePhilosophersGames I binge watch your videos. I guess I need to pay attention to dates.
I had the Simorillion and 3 others books but somebody liked them more then me. I should replace them. I still have a box set with the Hobbit and LOTR. I need to read them again.
haha you seem to like them then ^^ Your comment is probably valid, but after a few years I also start to forget things. This was my first little "breakthrough" video (and my first LotR lore related video), that boosted my channel from like 75 subs to ~1500k out of nowhere, so a very special video for me personally. Probably would have made it more precise, if I would have made it today.
Yes it's always worth re-reading the books, they are just so good.
Really good video. Yes, please do more.
its crazy how messed up the games timeline is after the 2nd game: the first one only works if it is set between Hobbit and LotR. but the 2nd Game starts with the fall of Minas Ithil and that was 2002 3rd Age, so over 1000 years before LotR. With that Gollum should not apear in both games because he was born 428 years after the fall of Minas Ithil.
haha yes in Shadow of War they amped up the "we change things" elements to 11 😂 Much more as I could foresee in this video.
Easy answer. IT DOESN'T.
That's the short version :D
@@ThePhilosophersGames lol, yep. love your videos though man, keep up the great work!
Thank you :)
Which is exactly why I hated it and don't even want to play shadow of war despite getting it for free and thinking some of the locations are ultra cool (like the castle the witch king lived near shelobs lair)
@@HugoStiglitz88 missing out on a great game then :/
videos like these are awesome
Thank you, happy you liked it =)
The game doesn't fit the lore, taking way too many liberties. However, the overall tone of the story does fit that of the books (Talion seeks the Gift of Men, Celebrimbor's ambition backfires, arrogance being the downfall of the Bright Lord, Sauron is depicted as a deceiver who corrupts his victims...)
Very nice video. I must admit Shadow of mordor's view on middle earth pissed me of. There were ways to make a great game and stay in the canon. But the newly announced Shadow of war seems to confirm that Warner is not willing to go in this direction at all
Le Savoir des Anneaux what's wrong with their depiction of Mordor?
legit question.
So awesome. I will also check out the games. You are very accurate. 👍
Thank you :) I wish you a lot of fun with the games (note: I also have a detailed "lore comparison" video for Shadow of War alone: ua-cam.com/video/Y-gvR7ioJjA/v-deo.html ).
I just figured they were canon to the movies
The balrog was summoned Mordor by orc Sorcerers and acolytes in hopes to be able to control it to serve the dark lord that was never going to happen you can't control the balrog and so it actually runs rampant killing the Orcs that summoned it
The Borrow Weights can interact with the world.Some of them were fighting with Sauron
Yes they are definitely an exception, but I would argue, that we don't know their exact nature. They could be the remains of fallen Maiar, which is a theory I personally agree on. Some argue they could be elves, but their ability to use spells in this "ghost" form is for me a good indicator for Maiar like entities. The mention of evil spirits also does not appear related to elves in the books.
ThePhilosophersGames The video and your channel in general are both awsome!!!But these two games are just fantasies by their developers without any real connection to the books or movies.
For example the fortresses of Gondor in Mordor definetley didn't have the power to maintain control there for so much time.And how in the world the armies of Sauron are "imprisoned" in Mordor if they had so much armies,a civilaised Orc society,an entire army of huge Trolls and Dragons and Wargs and fire and gunpowder weapons that could blow entire fortresses as it is shown in the game??
Yes agreed. They ae definitely fan fiction ^^ But I like speculating about them and explaining the differences :D
PS: Thank you :)
ThePhilosophersGames The right senario would it been one that in the war of the Ring Sauron wins the war and takes over Middle Earth and Talion's family is murdered when the evil forces invade in the Gondorian heartland.Talion is revived by Celedribor and he performs Guerilla warfare to liberate Middle Earth from Sauron and all these weapons and thousands of evil armies were created because nobody was left to oppose Sauron.Also the human prisoners were ones that were just captured to be slaves.In Shadow of War Talion gets a new ring and he has much more influence on Sauron's armies so he can perform a full on war on him to liberate Middle Earth and Shelob helps hin because Sauron betrayed her before
Accidentally left the Subtitles on. Its official. Talion is now italian, from gundalian with his fellow gundalian Rangers.
😂
Celebrimbor forges the ring through Talion. Celebrimbor himself does not interact with the world around him, but through Talion... Discounting of course the more fantastical abilities you have in the game... its not unreasonable. Men as well as elves is able to do "magic", tough magic in Tolkien's universe is... not what we would call magic.
Arwyn when she floods the river and wards of the ring-wraiths she does so by waking the god/spirit of the river, through an ancient tongue (which is more or less elvish).
Tombombadil sings to pacify the forest (though there are more forces at play there too)
And in the silmarillion one of the great elves literally sings to make his ship fly into the great maw of the first of the dragons (deathwing in world of warcraft is puny in compared to this beast) and kills it.
The Creator also sings to bring the valar to be, and together they sing a choir that creates the world, (Melkor intentionally sings off tune at this time causing all things bad to be made).
So... song is the medium of magic.
As mentioned in the video, that's hard to do, because even if Celebrimbor would not be in the halls of Mandos, he would not be able to interact with a human (including communication), nor partially control him. I also assume that it's not that easy to forge a Ring of Power, considering that Celebrimbor and Sauron both are very experienced in crafting artifacts and men are not well known to use magic (only curses and vows). So even Celebrimbor instructing Talion to build one for him is imo quite a stretch.
Agreed magic is special and often tied to words (or music) in Tolkien's Universe. But that does not mean, that everyone can simply wield it. I would argue, that it also involves some kind of authority or at least Ilúvatar accept those words.
In the books Glorfindel (instead of Arwen) lures the Nazgûl into the river (Bruinen) at Imladris/Rivendell and Elrond (and Gandalf) summon the flood.There are some fan theories, that is has to do with Elrond's ring of power (Vilya). I think in most examples for magic (as you mentioned) were words involved. E.g. in the video I mention Isildur cursing the Oathbreakers, which denies them access to the halls of Mandos until they fulfill there oath. I think that is also why, they still can interact at least a little bit with the world (even though they can not physically fight in the books).
Yup, While in the movies Suroman throws a fireball down at Gandalf and company... well I don't know if its possible lore wise...
Hmm, it has been too long since I read/listened to the books. So to my shame its the movies I remember the most. while good in and of themselves, the fact Tombombadil isn't in it is a sad thing. Or the dark forest in general
Yes, I totally agree with you. Tom Bombadil and the Old Forest are definitely missing in the movies!
Wirklich super gemachte Videos! Da ist richtig viel Wissen reingeflossen. :)
Bin dabei, die anderen Tolkien Lore comparison Videos auch anzusehen, aber ich muss gestehen, dass ich jetzt schon weiß, dass ich die Spiele nicht spielen kann... evil-Celebrimbor ist für mich ein echtes no-go. ;)
Die Videos sind trotzdem sehr interessant und ich bin gespannt, was für Themen du in Zukunft angehst.^^
Was mir bei diesem Video hier aber aufgefallen ist und mich etwas irritiert hat: dass Saruman nicht nach Mandos' Hallen kommen kann. Ich denke nicht, dass er da je hinkommen würde, da er ja schließlich ein Ainur ist?
Schlangenzunge hat zwar seinen Körper getötet, aber damit ist der Maia Saruman ja noch lang nicht "tot". Den Westwind, der Saruman mehr oder weniger "davon weht" hätte ich eher allgemein als Zurückweisung von Valinor und den Valar allgemein gesehen, denn Sarumans Schicksal nach dem Tod verhält sich sicherlich anders als das einer abgewiesenen Menschen- oder Elbenseele. :)
Thank you :) I answer in English (that's my personal rule for the comment section, but ofc you can answer in German). It's a bit difficult to explain, but I'll try.
I think it comes down to interpretation. The text implies, that Saruman tried to get back to Valinor, but a wind from the west blew him away (banishment). I can Imagine that if an Ainu loses his body, that he can be summoned there. What i mean with this is, that's it's more like a "shortcut". Going there does not mean, that he is dead, only that his spirit returns to Valinor (as you said). But ofc, it could also mean, that he tried to return there on his own. Sauron can also move around without his body, which makes sense for spirit beings. But ofc the Istari also had to clad in flesh, which should be considered too.
Saruman's doom after he dies is definitely different compared to others, because the powers of Valinor saw his betrayal and his death has parallels to Sauron's death:
Quote (LotR, The Last Debate):
For he [Sauron] will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.
and (LotR, The Field of Cormallen)
The realm of Sauron is ended!’ said Gandalf. ‘The Ring-bearer has fulfilled his Quest.’ And as the Captains gazed south to the Land
of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.
So we have some parallels and the phrase (The Scouring of the Shire):
but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.
So Saruman's spirit was dissolved into nothing and was never able to take a shape again. This banishment and losing his power, was the consequence of his actions. So in the end his state could be comparable to an rejected Elf or Men soul, because there is not much left of him I guess.
In the Unfinished Tales we can also read:
Whereas Curunír [Saruman] was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whither-soever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.
@@ThePhilosophersGames bist du Deutscher?
@@tumhornkingslayer6411 Yes, I'm from Germany
@@ThePhilosophersGames cool,ich auch. Hast du wahrscheinlich am Namen erkannt.
@@tumhornkingslayer6411 haha yes, I thought so ^^ (I always answer in English in case you wonder)
Great vid! You just got a new sub. Keep up the good work!
Thank you =) Also Dark Souls
ThePhilosophersGames lol ;)
Even if they are not Canonized, they don't break the Canon too much.
So I see no issues here. Lore-friendly (Non-AU) Fanfic is good Fanfic.
The timeline does not work for the baseline of the story. E.g. Gondor did not guard the Blackgate any more for ~1500 years when this game takes place, because Gondor as weakened over time a lot. In addition Celebrimbor 100% died in Eregion. he never went to Mordor and started a rebellion there, stealing the One Ring or helping refining it. Currently working on a video about this time in the Second Age and I have much greater knowledge of this time in comparison to what I knew 2017 when it made this video (in march 5 years ago). The premise is incompatible with LotR's story and Tolkien's vision of it and this character. I like the game. it's fun and it has some correct lore and some interesting ideas in it, but it's more of an what if/alternate history/"parallel universe" story.
Could it be that Celebrimbor did enter the halls of mendos, but instead of going to valinor became a pure spirit being wether by his own request or a detieties suggestion for some unknown reason, perhaps so that he may pose a fight against a weakend sauron at a later date.
The ritual the hand did could be seen as the finishing touches on a ritual Sauron could have been conducting for years as he was not finished tormenting the elf lord and it was a chance to further his powers and make sure an elf with the knowledge of ring craft didn't return and make another ring of power not tied to him to challenge him.
The ritual could have wript him from the halls of mendos or wherever he went but in a last state of defiance he fused with Celebrimbor.
Ones fussed his mind could be influenced by Talions thoughts at his last moment, amplifying his sorrow and wrath by there fold, turning Talion (a man that's used to dealing with wiled emotions) to serve as a conscience of sorts while they both seek the same goal but try not to fall to there rage and sorrow, but Celebrimbor unused to dealing with so much rage would have a worse time controlling it unlike Talion who seems rather composed in all the trailers so far in comparison to Celebrimbor.
Once in the Halls you can't escape against Mandos will. When Melkor/Morgoth (Sauron's Master) was captured by the Valar, they imprisoned him there for 3 Ages. And not even Melkor as the most powerful of the Valar could escape against the will of Mandos. Sauron and Morgoth simply don't have the authority for that.
When elves dwell in the halls they have a chance of being "reincarnated" on Aman, so they get a new body. That e.g. happened to Glorfindel, who also got more powers, because of his noble sacrifice and later send back to Middle-earth to help against Sauron. But this is one of few exceptions. Most reincarnated stay in Valinor. Elves also need a body on Arda to be complete, which is e.g. different for Ainur.
ThePhilosophersGames
Hmmm alright, that part of the theory is gone. XD
Still could be an interesting turn of events if Celebrimbor was treated similar to Glorfindel only sent back to deal with problems of the wraith world aka a weakend sauron (still has the wring but not in his possession) so as to either keep him from gathering his strength or slow the process as well as other non physical entities, but sauron got wind of it and conducted a ritual to bind this spirit (which could have been powered up by Eru eluvatar or another maia for The specific purpose of battling non physical threats) to one of his captain's but In a last act of defiance possesd the dying body of Talion the mental things happend, and now he's a sort of fusion character that deals with physical and non-physical threats.
Just desperately trying to have the Talion Celebrimbor and there insane feats make sense to me in order to enhance my enjoyment of the games XD
I fully recognize that it's far fetched and probably not what happend but it is interesting and with my limited knowledge of Tolkiens world it makes some sense to me.
haha you are trying really hard and it sounds almost plausible :P But how does Talion's dead body regenerate? He is dead too. They should not have a physical form.
I would say if Celebrimbor would be a Maia, all this could make a little bit more sense.
ThePhilosophersGames
All one can do is try XD
The dead body thing. The easy explanation is game mechanics, though it would have been pretty cool if the game was all about the spirit of Celebrimbor fighting sauron saying in the wraith world... I smell a missed opportunity.
The harder answer is lore wise and in all honesty Im not sure i can answer it. But I believe the simplest explanation is that it doesn't regenerate. Notice that there aren't a billion corpses of Talion lying about and you never hear of any orc or uruk using his corps for anything only planing to.
My theory is that the 'body' of Talion is actually similar to saurons armour just a form the now two spirits take when traveling the physical realm, and that when this "body" dies it dissipates and ones the spirits have enough strength the reform it, similar to what sauron does.
The towers they always apear on are in my guess simply ways to make this reforming easier as there essentially clusters of 'good magic' in a land of 'evil magic' if you want to get Extremly technical XD
Light and shadow.
Also Minas Ithil fell to the Witch King a thousand years before the events of the Lord of the Rings. Shadow of War has decided that it happened at the same time.
Yes, they seem to compress time a lot and put the story of Minas Ithil into Shadow of War. My (probably) next video will be partly about the story of Minas Ithil. I hope I can finish it soon.
I love the game and the books. Even though, as you said, I would have preferred them to stay closer to the books, the game is still fun and very innovative with the nemesis system. Very informative video and enjoyed it thoroughly, keep up the good work.
Thank you much appreciated =) Yes agreed.
i will never understand how its a gift to be mortal...
Thanks for this!!!
No problem and thank you for commenting and watching ^^
9:00 why does "a very good guy" sounds like an insult? lol
I should have delivered this with less emphasis ^^ But Celebrimbor was actually quite a nice elf (a contrast to his grandfather Fëanor)
@@ThePhilosophersGames I got the subtext. It was perfect and funny
ThePhilosophersGames yes, Celebrimbor was a very different elf to his father and grandfather.
You but does Brûz the Australian Olog Hai exist in Tolkien’s legendarium?
haha sadly no ^^
Incorrect, the oathbreakers broke that Rohan kings legs so he died in the mountain, therefore they can interact with the environment as part of their curse, otherwise they'd never be able to lift the curse because they wouldn't be able answer the call to fight. Scaring people isn't fighting, fighting is fighting.
Incorrect, LotR does not mention broken legs for the corpse (the word "leg" or "legs" is not even mentioned in the whole chapter) and the books I mainly used for this video as foundation and source were: The Silmarillion, The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. For some additional info: a bit of the Unfinished Tales and a bit of Morgoth's Ring when I had to, here the Quote from LotR:
"Nonetheless he drew near, and saw Aragorn kneeling, while Elladan
held aloft both torches. Before him were the bones of a mighty
man. He had been clad in mail, and still his harness lay there whole;
for the cavern’s air was as dry as dust, and his hauberk was gilded.
His belt was of gold and garnets, and rich with gold was the helm
upon his bony head face downward on the floor. He had fallen near
the far wall of the cave, as now could be seen, and before him stood
a stony door closed fast: his finger-bones were still clawing at the
cracks. A notched and broken sword lay by him, as if he had hewn
at the rock in his last despair.
Aragorn did not touch him, but after gazing silently for a while
he rose and sighed. ‘Hither shall the flowers of simbelmynë come never
unto world’s end,’ he murmured. ‘Nine mounds and seven there are
now green with grass, and through all the long years he has lain at
the door that he could not unlock. Whither does it lead? Why would
he pass? None shall ever know!"
- The Lord of the Rings, The Passing of the Grey Company
The only source for broken legs we find in the Vinyar Tengwar Issue 42, The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor, Halifirien, Note 6:
"But the door was shut in his face, and enemies that had followed him silently came up and broke his legs and left him to die in the darkness, unable to find any way out."
I don't consider this text canon and I did not use this as source for any of my videos.
A reason for this is stated in the text itself:
"At the words "It may however have been a tomb", Tolkien abandoned this text, and (no doubt immediately) marked the entire account of the Halifirien for deletion."
This was never intended by Tolkien to be published and you don't find a note of broken legs in any of the main and secondary works. This is an philosophical essay
If you have another source I'm not aware of, please feel free to provide a source.
@@ThePhilosophersGames my only source was geekzone and his video on the oathbreakers, where he did use that letter/thing as canon and because it didn't contradict any lotr lore from the books I took it as canon too. Thanks for the clarification ThePhilosophersGames. Love the channel btw and keep up the fantastic work.
Interesting and well researched then by GeekZone. It's imo a fairly hidden piece of information. But yes canon can be often debated, I still struggle a bit with what information to take as canon and what not. It would be the only instance where the Oathbreakers would potentially cause physical harm to someone (maybe they scared him and he fell down, breaking his legs, but that would be pure speculation of my side).
Back in the day when I made this video, I had not red these issues of the Vinyar Tengwar and to this day I haven't red all of them. It's really very special material. Maybe there is a note of it somewhere else in HoMe. I know parts of the "The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor" was published in the Unfinished Tales, but I think this part with the broken legs is not in it (I could not find it at least).
PS: Thank you :)
@@ThePhilosophersGames for me canon is any information that doesn't contradict any of the mainstream canon like the hobbit, lotr and the silmarilion, spelling maybe bad on that lol. Although as you say it's always up for debate, I'm not going to debate you on lotr though, you know much more than I. most of my info comes from either you, geekzone, men of the west or alachier galadurithan, all good channels. First time I've ever commented on your stuff. Favourite vids of yours are, numinor lore/aragorn, sauron/morgoth and the Istari videos 😍. Honestly I did not expect you to answer on such an old video but it seemed I actually had some information not included in your video, only time that's happened and I couldn't resist.
haha no problem. When you write a new comment (not an answer to an old comment), it's very likely that I see the comment, because the comment list in YT's creator studio shows all new comments independent of when a video was posted. That is not the case with answers to old comments though. Ever comment and answers to it is like a thread, so when the top comment does not show up in my list, the answers don't show up either. I have basically no chance to see the answers to old comments. I try to answer as much as possible though or at least let people know, that I red the comment (by marking and upvoting it; exceptions are borderline unfriendly comments ^^).
Yes I guess most people have their own idea of canon. For me it's mainly LotR, Hobbit, Silmarillion, Letters (if they were send) and the published poems of Tolkien (considering the context). I ofc take corrections and additions into account from e.g. the HoMe books (including Great Tales), History of the Hobbit and esp. Unfinished Tales, which I like a lot. As long as the information does not contradict the main works it's OK, but sometimes there is a reason why Tolkien did not publish it or abandoned it (like the Round World Version). I take those with a grain of salt. With information published in the Parma Eldalamberon or the Vinyar Tengwar I'm a bit careful though, esp. when Christopher Tolkien did not put them into any of the HoMe books and also people outside of Tolkien and Christopher Tolkien worked on those.
5:25 family tree is a circle
haha yes a very big circle though 😅
damn man nice breakdown
Thank you :D
His lore level is over 9000!
It is totaly possible for elves to become wraiths.
If elves, or men die their spirits were *summoned* to the Halls of Mandos. Elves can refuse the call and their fëa wil remain.
"For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly: the limit of their lives is the life of Arda [...] As the weight of the years [...] gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalië on earth will have becomes spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly."
-Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs of the Elves
The spirits of men can be forced to stay (Ringwraiths, Dead Men of Dunharrow). If the Nazgul died or just traveled to the Wraith World...the result would still be the same. The rings bound them to both worlds and to Sauron. We don't know for sure if dwarfs were summoned to the Halls of Mandos or even dwelled there. At least it was what they believed.
Even after Saruman was stripped of his rank and titel he was still a Maiar and had powers left. He could still use his 'voice' and I am sure after his death he also was summoned to Halls of Mandos to be judged by Mandos himself. He could have refused the call...
Edit:
Don't get me wrong I did enjoy the video ❤
I had this discussion a lot. The only hint for Elves becoming wraiths written in The Lord of the Rings is the possibility of fading, when they don't leave Middle-earth. Círdan is the oldest known Elf living in Middle-earth (he has also not seen the Light of the Two Trees) and he did not fade. Ofc he had a Ring of Power for ~1000 years, but he potentially left Middle-earth in the Fourth Age as Elf not Wraith. So fading due to living on Middle-earth for too long (becoming a Wraith) is not an option for Celebrimbor, because he is far too young in the Second Age.
Refusing the summon of Mandos is potentially possible (should have not denied that theoretical possibility so strictly in the video), but not even Fëanor did that, quote:
"and his [Fëanor's] likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos." - Silmarillion, Of the Return of the Noldor
It's simply unheard of to my knowledge, esp since I partially ignore the History of Middle-earth books for this video (ofc some information can only be found there).
There are some special cases that could in theory be Elvish wraiths, like the Barrow-wights, but I know no case, esp. in the material I used for this video. In addition SoM and SoW only had access to Hobbit and LotR + Appendices from a license/rights perspective. Ofc they still included elements like the Blue Wizards, which are only mentioned in the Unfinished Tales and Peoples of Middle-earth.
Another important point: SoM implies, that both Celebrimbor and Talion could have left Middle-earth at the end, but refusing the summon once (which Celebrimbor would have to do to become a wraith) seems quite definitive in my opinion. E.g. Gorlim was refused or refused himself to be summoned and it does not appear, that he could do anything about it after this.
So the question is: why would Celebrimbor, who was overall "wiser" than his grandfather Fëanor, be more foolish than his grandfather in death and refuse the summon to the Halls of Mandos? That makes no sense and as I said is unheard of for Elves as far as I know.
The Nazgûl in contrast never died. They were transformed into "Ringwraiths" through the powers of their Rings and are bound to the One Ring through this. Celebrimbor was not bound by a Ring, since Elves resonated differently. Gil-galad did not become a wraith and he died and wore a Ring of Power too.
The Oathbreakers/Dead Men of Dunharrow broke an oath and were cursed by a Dúnedain King. The Dúnedain Kings (even later the Ruling Stewards) could call upon Eru for an oath and so God himself accepted this oath and curse and it became reality. This case however demonstrates that Wraiths are quite powerless. In the books the Oathbreakers just frighten the Corsairs of Umbar, who jumped off their ships, fleeing in terror. But it seems they could not physically interact with the world.
In conclusion:
the state as wraith seems terrible and is always portrait with a loss in power. Even Sauron suffered this, when he lost the One Ring. Saruman was refused to enter the halls of Mandos it seems:
"To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into *nothing* ." - The Lord of the Rings, The Scouring of the Shire
He does not seem happy and it's implied that his power was lost. Gandalf only expelled Saruman from the Order of the Istari and broke his staff (in my opinion a symbol of his authority). ofc he could still use his powerful voice. He was (as you say) still a Maia.
In Shadow of Mordor/War (and this is my main point in the video) Talion/Celebrimbor receive "next level immortality" due to Celebrimbor being a wraith and him somehow fusing with a dying Talion. They can interact with the world, talk to people still having a physical form thanks to Talion, die over and over again and they don't lose power or suffer from the state of being "wraiths". It has no consequences for them, which is untypical for what we now from the works. Nt only that in my opinion it clearly contradicts the books. Esp. why would an Elvish Wraith be able to stop Talion from dying? Why can he do things, not even a living Elf could do? Elrond was a powerful healer, but I'm not sure that a slit throat + the resulting trauma + heavy bloodloss could have saved Talion. And was we later see in SoW, Talion is not healed at all. When Celebrimbor leaves him, his wounds reappear. So what exactly did he do to Talion. Actually we see Talion's spirit in SoM, so he definitely died. And with all this it becomes very difficult to plausible explain, what hapens in the game.
To end on a positive note: I still like that the game tries to find a "story" explanation for respawning after death, an effort not many games make. But in this video I compare that to the main books' lore and there it does not fit, when they don't suffer any consequences.
I revisited this topic a bit in my Shadow of War lore comparison: ua-cam.com/video/Y-gvR7ioJjA/v-deo.html in case you are interested.
@@ThePhilosophersGames
Your right about Saruman (how could I forget) and probably right about the fading part. But ...
"It would seem that in these after-days more and more of the Elves, be they of the Eldalië in origin or be they of other kinds, who linger in Middle-earth now refuse the summons of Mandos, and wander houseless in the world, unwilling to leave it and unwilling to inhabit it, haunting trees or springs or hidden places that once they knew."
-Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs of the Elves
And there is still the possibility of a Morgul-Knife...hypothetically.
The Black Hand(Black Númenórean?) made some kind of blood sacrifice (Sauron did similar things[I don't know for what purpose] at his temple on Númenor). He tried to bind Celebrimbors fëa to himself but Celebrimbor defied him and bound himself to Talion. Celebrimbor did not intend to bind himself to someone in the first place but was forced. Don't ask me how that works^^
"...Gil-galad did not become a wraith and he died and wore a Ring of Power too."
It is told that the Elves did not wear their Rings while Sauron was in posession of The One (except for the moment Sauron put his Ring on). The Three were also never touched/corrupted by Sauron.
"The Oathbreakers/Dead Men of Dunharrow broke an oath and were cursed by a Dúnedain King [...]This case however demonstrates that Wraiths are quite powerless. In the books the Oathbreakers just frighten the Corsairs of Umbar, who jumped off their ships, fleeing in terror. But it seems they could not physically interact with the world."
Does this count for elves too? Not sure about that. Especially the Calaquendi. The Calaquendi live in both worlds at the same time. Maybe they still wield this power in death.
I think we can agree on one thing. The Games are not very lore friendly but still fun :)
Neither is breaking someone's neck sure the body stops moving in the heart stops breathing but all the motor functions are in the head your Consciousness is in the head your brain still working as it slowly dies with no oxygen to be pumped through
I got something that could explain what the hell is going on in shadow of Mordor. What if, this is a timeline gone wrong somehow, I don't know how this could happen. But if something is messing with Middle Earth and making Sauron more powerful somehow for some kind of long term plan. It could be that Celebrimbor was brought as wraith to restore balance and quell this dramatically over powered version of Sauron and his army. I mean it makes sense, you take over his army, kill his most powerful servants and then when his One ring is becoming to powerful. A new one is crafted but instead of being a influence of evil it's a influence of balance or Light.
That definitely an interesting idea, but I feel like Shadow of Mordor feels more like a different universe, where basic rules of the world changed. But different timeline could fit too. Not a bad theory, a bit like Matrix (in a very distant way), if I understand you correctly ^^ We will see, in what direction Shadow of War is going.
So the Ring of Power forged by Sauron has his Spirit/Essence in it, which is why it is such a corrupting force.
The ring being forged by Talion/Calebrimbor would not have this effect, but (if made the same way) would have Talion/Calebrimbor's Spirit/Essence in it.
Theoretically, this ring of power would not be a corrupting force... well it would corrupt in the sense that it is overriding another persons personality and emotions.
Sauron is not corrupted by his ring, because it is himself that is in it. So, the new ring should not corrupt Talion/Calebrimbor, cuz it is a part of them inside of it.
Now if someone else wore it, then THAT person would start having the creator's Spirit/Essence overriding their own.
Even still the overriding force in the new ring might not even be bad or evil, it would be Talion/Calebriombor's drive for Justice/Revenge.
You know infinitely more about the lore, so I will differ to your judgement on my theory.
I'm happy, that people here put so much thought into their ideas and theories. All those are pretty borderline scenarios. And it's often hard to find a conclusion. I would argue here, that Sauron is a Maia. That are by nature "divine spirit beings"/angel like beings. They are complete with only their spirit (even though having a physicalform seems to help them or make them more powerful). Elves and men on the other side are body and spirit beings and only complete with both. So a powerful entity as Sauron can put part of his will inside an object like The One Ring, because he can manipulate his bodiless form, it's not bound to "space" on the same level, if this makes sense. Celebrimbor or Talion can't do that. Also Celebrimbor is not complete, because he has no body. It feels a bit like Celebrimbor is portrayed like a Maia in Shadow of Mordor/War. Funnily enough, all this would make more sense that way.
I would also argue that the One Ring is not necessarily overriding in a sense of domination. It's more slowly manipulating and giving a new "evil" perspective. The Ringbearers don't turn evil immediately, but develop parts of it over time not knowing that they are part of the big plan returning the One Ring to Sauron. So you are right, if there would be another one Ring filled with Revenge, it would also slowly manifest over time and bring them to go for revenge, I guess. It's hard to say. Sauron is a powerful entity and driven by manipulating and dominating others. So the ring empowers those tendencies inside its wearer. I guess it would be the same, if another One Ring could exist. But this ring would imo also be considered evil. It's a complicated matter :D
Obviously Sauron couldn't "summon" Celebrimbor from the Halls of Mandos, and Talion could not be resurrected as death is absolute. However, what if neither actually died? Both had their bodies destroyed, but theoretically Celebrimbor was bound to the world by the Ring, and Talion was bound as well through the blood sacrifice. They wouldn't be wraiths in the normal sense (not allowed by Mandos to fully die), but that they cannot die without either both resolving the blood sacrifice or the Ring being destroyed.
Not sure if I understand you correctly. I try to answer, as I understand it. Maybe I overlooked something.
It's indicated in the books, that Celebrimbor dies. A ritual sacrifice was not mentioned.
In the Unfinished Tales we can read:
"In black anger he (Sauron) turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's
body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces
of Elrond."
In a "what if" scenario, even if you get sacrificed in a ritual, you still die and enter the Halls of Mandos. The only entity who could change that, would be Ilúvatar himself. He would have to accept the sacrifice and for some reason deny the (in these cases innocent) "offering" access to the Halls of Mandos or transform his spirit. I think that's very unlikely and not heard of in the books. If human sacrifices are mentioned (as far as I know), worshiping Melkor/Morgoth is connected to it. But Morgoth while powerful, still can't do that. I assume Morgoth's only option would be to transform or change a living creature into something else. This part is actually not that well defined in the books, but I think he usually can't "create" so powerful beings like Celebrimbor (in Shadow of Mordor). Also Morgoth was banned into the void, which should limit his options massively.
The bounding to the One Ring after death, would also not work, because we know other Ring-bearers, who (simply) died and did not live on as ghost like being. E.g. Isildur or Déagol. The only beings (still alive), where some kind of transformation worked (Rings of Power), were the humans, who became Nazgûl. E.g. on Dwarfs it did not work, probably not on elves either.
It seems that Tolkien put a lot of power into the spoken word (like vows and curses), as in Christianity (which is no accident). But there's only one entity in the LotR universe, that has the authority to give these words enough "power" and that would be Ilúvatar.
I hope that helps =)
you make a good point, and really i think im just playing devils advocate here, but you forgot about sauron being bound too the one ring, i think it might be abit different if you make the ring and imbue it with your will, which is supposedly exactly what celebrimbore did with not only the one ring of power, but talions ring as well in Shadow of War, my only problem with my own theory is that sauron is Maia and maybe thats why he can bind his will to objects, meaning celebrimbor wouldnt be able too.
Yes, very good point and I would answer the same: Sauron can do this, because Sauron is a Maia. E.g. Men can't do it, else this would be a way to become immortal and at some point someone would have tried it (e.g. Númenor). Elves are different ("immortal"), but also bound to the world through their body, which they need to be outside the halls of Mandos or to interact with the physical world.
Maiar and Valar have a different "level" of immortality, because they are not (that strongly) bound to their physical forms and have control abut their spirit. They are complete with only their spirits (I think called ëalar). In contrast elves and men need their bodies and spirits to be complete.
yeah, thats certainly my worst fear, i think the tolkien lore needs to be continued, but if we leave it up to corporate gaming company's, there gonna butcher it, similar to the hobbit.
I'm pretty much on the side, that I like that the universe is or feels complete. The story was already told. I know many people love getting more, but personally I like, if stories end and then the writer/creator moves on. I often feel, that in today's story telling, it often goes too much into the direction of: how can we open the door for a sequel. That is a tendency I often dislike.
If anything, Tolkien should have given some leeway into the development and lore of the games and movies. There could have been a lot of opportunity for him to expand his fan base further. But Shadow of Mordor, despite being essentially an alternate version of Middle-Earth, does have that LoTRs feel to it; which is good!
Christopher Tolkien hates the movies and even though I personally (at least) like the expended edition of LotR, I can see why. He would not be pleased with the direction of the games too. I would in case of Shadow of Mordor even say, that the basic gamedesign document existed before they knew, they would get the LotR license, like with Ultima Underworld. Still I agree it fits to the movie universe and catches the spirit of it, but some aspects are a bit off, esp. when it comes to the story. Still I like the game and I think it's a great game.
Well, that's sad to hear. The Tolkien part I mean.
Money making exercises which have devalued the entire Original Concept
Maybe, but I think the Tolkien fanbase is still big enough to not get influenced by it or see it as "canon". It's basically fan fiction. As far as I know it was originally also planned to be a new Batman game (related to Nolan's Batman series). But they did not get permission and so the concepts were recycled into their next project which was Shadow of Mordor.
ThePhilosophersGames amazing how all these fan fiction games manage to distort Tolkien’s original ethos that there is indeed a difference between good and evil. Themes like repentance, forgivemensss, redemption are no t addressed. It’s only about conflict and power. Very sad.
Yo, that Bleach: Immortal Soul ad is pretty hard. Off topic I know, but still...
Celebrimbor's state as a wraith is somewhat plausible, if you take into consideration that perhaps he's bound to the ring, due to his help in it's creation, and cannot depart until it has been unmade. It's absurd that Sauron would need his help in the first place, but still. I'm just theorizing!
The problem with this is, that it would make more sense, when Celebrimbor was a Maia himself. But he is an elve and without body not fully complete. A Maia is a more spirit-like being, that is complete as a spirit, has control over it and can, as Sauron, bind himself to an object like The One Ring. The only reason for Celebrimbor to be bound to the Ring, would be a curse by Eru Ilúvatar. But Celebrimbor actively tried to trick and oppose Sauron, so why would he have been cursed? It seems, that curses are different in SoM or they fused Maiar and Elves together.
ThePhilosophersGames I'm trying to think, does it ever say specifically that Eru approved of Isildúr's curse laid upon the men of the white mountain? And it wouldn't have worked if he didn't? They were bound to middle-earth, and denied departure, is there any reason why the same couldn't have happened to Celebrimbor?
The King's of men are close to Eru and can call him in important/meaningful situations. This is probably a bit more vague, than I explain it here, but it goes into this direction. That is probably also why Eru himself destroyed Númenor's fleet and he island, because men were rejecting his gift to them with their actions. The Oathbreakers, also (once) worshiped Sauron and in addition broke their oath to Isildur. They worked pretty hard on getting cursed. It can happen to Celebrimbor, but he opposed Sauron. He did not tell him where he hd the 3 elven Rings of Power, even under torture. And if we consider only the events of SoM Celebrimbor didn't tell him and he tried to trick and destroy/beat Sauron. Actually it's to some degree heroic, even though you can question his ways. I would argue, that this is not enough for a curse of this magnitude.
ThePhilosophersGames Rewatching your video, that is a very good point about the Ringwraiths never dying, where as Celebrimbor did. This games treat wraiths like ghosts, which they aren't.
I know this is an older video but very informative and after playing the games again, I think on the surface just from watching the hobbit and lotr the games fit very well if you’re ignorant the deeper lore lmfao but they do a good job not step onto the deep established lore
Maybe eru illuvitar made an exception and saw talions suffering so he merged the soul of celebrimbor with talion and granting him the powers he has ??
Just a thought
Great video by the way !
Thank you :D That would be possible, but quite unlikely. Eru rarely interferes the affairs of his children and when King's or great evil powers are usually involved. But if that was the official explanation, it would be strange but you could not argue against it.
As for Celebrimbor being an uncorruptable good guy. Lotr has shown us many times that almost anyone can be corrupted from Valar to Hobbits and Sauron is the master of corruption. Celebrimbor was tortured, and since Sauron has no regards for well anything and given that elves can wistand a lot more pain and damage than motral men I am sure that he was tortured a lot. And if anything can break a man is torture until death.
You are right in that regard. We know the example of Gorlim. But we know for a fact, that Celebrimbor did not break, because he id not tell Sauron, where he hid the last 3 Rings. Celebrimbor succeeded. He did not join sides with Sauron and even in the game he is opposing Sauron, which makes sense. The point I tried to make is: if you succeed in this, why would you not allowed to enter the Halls of Mandos? His grandfather did worse, and even he was allowed to go there. So the other possibility would be: to chose to not go to the Halls of Mandos, but why would he do that? He could have gotten a new body in Valinor and brought back to life. There is pretty much no advantage in staying and all elves knew that.
1.
the thing about "the gift of man" talion COULD Escape this as he became half elf because celebrimbor choose to be a wraith (not compareble to the nazgul) and not to go to the halls of mandos so he could be summoned to Talion making Talion half-elf but where celebrimbor/Talion power Comes from. Sauron has power over him because in shadow of Mordor + the Bright Lord DLC celebrimbor had the ring and was partly corupted. the black hand of Sauron is probably a "empty" human contolled by Sauron. and Sauron tried to "recruit" celebrimbor and later also Talion/ celebrimbor so Talion could Escape "the gift of man"
2.
ThePhilosophersGames I agree with a lot you are saying but there are some things you have wrong (no offense) but the elves could be a wraith
1. they can choose to not go to the halls of mandos
2. maybe by a ring but than only the one and even that is not sure
what is a wraith?
a soul human, elve etc. maybe even orc witch is bound to middle earth and banned to say so from there hall I think a sideffect of the rings on humans is that it destroys there body's but keeps there souls in ME elf's can choose to stay if there is this kind of effect on other species is unknown,
men's have always seeked the gift of elves and vice versa
Thanks for you thoughts. I try to answer this:
1. There are several problems with this. Talion's body is dead. Elves are resistant, but if you slit the throat of an elf, they die too. There is only one instance known, where a men became an elf and that is Túor. And in this instance, that was a gift by Eru, as stated in Tolkien's letter #153:
Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.
It is also not heard of, that you can become a half-elf through being possessed by an elvish spirit. I think that is very untypical lore wise and does not make a lot of sense. You are born a half-elf and are then allowed by Eru to chose one path. If Talion dies he goes to the halls of Mandos. If not, he is at maximum a very powerless spirit/wraith, that can barely interact with the physical world. Same with an elf. There are statements, that a spirit has the choice to not go to the halls of Mandos, but they came much later and as far as I know, there is no instance known in Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion. Again: a human, a dwarf or an elf is only complete with their spirit and their body. The books do not imply, that they can control their spirits like a Maia, who is complete with only the spirit. The case of possessing a body is really rare and untypical in Lord of the Rings. Even considering the barrow-wights.
Also as stated in the letter, mortality and immortality are the domain of Eru himself. Not even a Vala can easily mess with this and change the rules and neither can Celebrimbor or Sauron. They simply do not have the authority. At least from the books perspective.
2. I talk about this case in the video, so I don't see a mistake there, but maybe I can clarify it.
What I mean (and I think I only mentioned this here in the comments not in the video), elves can probably not become Nazgûl (Ringwraith). Dwarfs can't and why would it possible for the resistant and immortal Elves? We can also read, that they sensed the corruption of the One Ring and they were still able to take off their rings. So elves are at least capable of avoiding Sauron's power.
The other case would be, that an elf or men does not enter the halls of Mandos and wanders Middle-earth as a spirit or "wraith" (also mentioned in the video). I can't remember that it is stated in the Simarillion or in the Lord of the Rings, that elves or men were able to chose, if they want to go to the halls of Mandos or not (maybe in the later works like HOME, but I only look from the perspective of J.R.R. Tolkien's work). Even if that was possible, it wouldn't make a big difference. Why should Celebrimbor not go to the halls of Mandos? He could be reincarnated and Sauron does not have the authority to prevent this. I also think there is no case known, where this actually happened. We only know, that "souls" got denied access to the Halls of Mandos, like the Oathbreakers, Saruman or Gorlim (I mention these cases in the video, except for Gorlim). They can be considered wraith. But all those instances are very powerless. The only case, where someone dies and his spirits flies around after his physical death and is still very powerful is Sauron and he is a powerful Maia and had the One Ring (created it).
With all that said, my point still stands:
Ofc Celebrimbor can become a wraith, but it is very unlikely and Sauron does not have the authority or power to force or curse him into being a wraith. If he becomes a wraith (for whatever reason), he wields no power, because he is not a Maia.
Talion is dead. Celebrimbor (and Sauron) don't have the power and authority to bring him back to life or deny him access to the halls of Mandos.
As mentioned here in the comments: SoM treats Celebrimbor like he was a Maia.
ThePhilosophersGames Men don't go to the halls of Mandos. It is stated to be unknown what happens to men when they die but also that they will be present in the second making of music.
At the end and during the game celebrembor showed some evil traits especially at the ending. So the thought of him becoming a wraith is fathomble also the reason he might have not told sauron was out of spite instead of self sacrifice
Celebrimbor definitely becomes more and more evil. Agreed. But at least I imagined him as a good guy (in the books) when he was alive. So why should he not go to the halls of Mandos. he had the chance of getting a new body this way (like Glorfindel, who sacrificed himself, died, went to the halls of Mandos, was resurrected in Valinor and later sent back to Middle-earth, to help against Sauron)
So my problem is more, that Celebrimbor had to reject the summoning of Mandos on purpose to become a wraith in the first place. But I agree, how he acts in the games, it can make sense, that he becomes a wraith. On the other side, we have his grandfather (Fëanor), who even killed his own kind to reach his goals and get his revenge. Even he was not rejected to enter the Halls of Mandos, but he was not "resurrected".
ThePhilosophersGames it possible having the one ring corrupted him when he used it against souron in the game
Thanks you for reinforcing my point im a new subscriber and i'm a fan of your lord of the rings videos keep up the good work
This is a very tough question. He would be somehow corrupted yes. Like Galadriel said:
"In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!"
Something like that Celebrimbor could have become too.
First time i heard someone talk/warn about Lord of the rings spoilers hahah
These days, you have to be careful, people sometimes see the smallest information as spoilers ^^ I also released this video before SoW was out and I knew from the first trailer footage, that this would include Mordor conquering Minas Ithil (resulting in it becoming Minas Morgul). Not a big spoiler, but still not obvious, if you don't know the books quite well.