Update: my gaming content will be on my 2nd channel: ua-cam.com/users/TPhGames (at least some LotR related gaming videos will still be posted here on the main channel though) It took some time, but finally it’s done: a very in-detail Lore Comparison between Shadow of War and Tolkien’s books. My intention is just explaining interested people the differences. This time I also tried to explore the references in the game and the idea or origin of some of the changes. I forgot a few things and probably missed some stuff. There are even parts I don’t fully understand, like Celebrimbor’s movement after he escapes from Sauron in Mordor. The start of teh video is a long explanation about life and death in the lore, maybe skip to 6:43 min. I hope you like it :) Maybe check my Shadow of Mordor lore comparison too. PS: There are as always some mistakes. I will list them here and in the description.
ThePhilosophersGames i actually thought Talion would be granted an afterlife because of his sacrifice for middle earth. His sanity being his final sacrifice, do you think him being forced into doing evil would void that or no?
There is the story of Gorlim, who fought with Barahir against Morgoth, but he got captured and tortured. Sauron suggested a a deal, that if he tells him where Barahir hides, he will be reunited with his wife. So Gorlim told Sauron. And Sauron explained, that his wife is dead and killed him too. He became a restless spirit too (Gorlim tried to warn Barahir's son though). So even with Gorlim fighting Morgoth and Sauron his whole life, enduring torture, this one time "screwed" him. Same could be said about Talion. He could have just died. The situation was forced by his deeds prior to that and the Nazgûl did many terrible things. I would say, maybe there is a chance for Talion to find peace in his afterlife, but you could at least also argue against it.
Could the difference however be that Gorlim told where Barahir's hideout was out of his own free will, although under pressure, where as Talion was literally being mind controlled when he ran out of strength to resist the ring after decades of using it to fight against Sauron?
Also, I was under the impression that Talion would end up in Valinor. Because he became a ring bearer out of necessity. His intentions are good while his actions were questionable. But like frodo and Bilbo, who held the one ring without actually wanting it. He held a power ring by accident, he also managed to release isildur. So I think the Valar would be bros about it and let his broken spirit rest at valinor before his true death
@John Matrix as the guy below me said. Tolkien actually liked people making interpretations of his world. So relax, not everyone is a turbo nerd who thinks the books are holy gospel.
I don't think Talion got to go to Valinor. The spirits of men are bound for a different fate then Elves; Frodo and Bilbo only got to go west to live out the rest of their days in the only place they could feel relief from the burden they had to bear. They too would have died eventually and then their spirits would move on. Seeing as Talion died at the end of the game I think his spirit went on to where the spirits of men go and depending on what that is he probably would have been reunited with his family.
SPOILER WARNING: In the game's final ending, Talion is released from darkness. He is, according to the game, the ring wraith (in the Return of the King) that was hit by a flaming boulder after the one ring was destroyed. At the end of the game, he is seen walking towards the light of day, welcomed into the halls of Mandos. This is where the game ties in pretty decently with the lore of Tolkien. In the halls of Mandos, Talion will be reunited with his wife and son, and together, all three will leave Arda, and enter the halls of Eru Illuvatar. This is the gift of men, the ability to have a fate separate of that from Arda. A good ending, if there ever was one.
@John Matrix the game actually did a really good job of staying within the realm of Tolkien's lore, and I'm quite sure Tolkien would have approved of this addition to his creation. This game has added new content to the Tolkien universe that fits nicely into the story we learn of in the time surrounding Bilbo and Frodo, the fellowship of the ring, and much of the third age of middle earth. The game's lore does much to fill in the blanks, and with creative flourish, tell us more of what is going on in Mordor, and why Sauron was held back so effectively. Don't cling to old things and refuse change. Tolkien never did. Doing so is the path towards darkness.
Thematically I think talon’s story is very Tolkien like even if it doesn’t work with the mythos. Tolkien out right stated that if any tried to beat the dark lord at his own game he would sit own the dark throne and become a new dark lord. Talon’s gift of mercy for isildor is also very thematically appropriate. That is to say the lore and facts of SoW don’t line up with the TLOTRs but the themes do very much.
@@dunfu7355 no it doesn't. They own the distribution rights to the movies. They can't change written lore and scripture when they want. Unless Tolkien wrote the story then it ain't canon
@@tramainecanty5846 i no that and ur right but i want u to no that cuz of whats going on lord of the rings and the hobbit will not ever be as big as star wars or harry potter cuz "fans" dont want to add to the universe of middle earth and also the hobbit rights are with amazon they got the full movie rights to anything hobbit so whatever they put out is there own cannon
@@dunfu7355No, Amazon only has tv rights of lord of the rings, they don't even have rights to the Silmarillion. Also, the world of Harry Potter has ended long ago, even the author has been writing a completely different series for the past decade and Harry Potter is probably likely to not return except for games and movies and don't get me started on Star Wars, that franchise is dying and losing many fans day by day. And I don't think you understand what canon means and the rights to LOTR is more complex than you think. I am quite glad that LOTR ended early and isn't just being milked for money with no end in sight. All good things must come to an end or else they were never good to begin with.
@@tramainecanty5846the movies change the lore too and aren’t considered canon so I guess you could say the Shadow of Mordor games are canon to the movies.
I love what these games did with the orcs! They have personality, relations, rivalries and ambitions of their own. I love it and choose to believe how the orcs are portrayed in the game are how they are in LOTR
Despite all of the screwy lore, I think the characterization of the orcs is going to be cemented into Tolkein fanon for quite some time. Even if only for lack of alternatives. Which is probably the best part of the game, so I'm glad that'll be it's legacy. I'm definitely expecting it to become common practice for tie-in materials to casually mention that an orc is of the Terror or Feral tribe.
Yes, I know what you mean. I see it quite similar. But I like what they do in these collectable item descriptions. Some nice references there considering, that they don't have access to the Silmarillion.
@sakor88 they are some fun ass games. Even being the blatant cash grabs that they are. I would even argue that the lore changes suit the gameplay. I guess you don't feel the same way. Either you're a pessimist or feel slighted by this game somehow. Either way, cheer up buttercup, it ain't so bad.
@sakor88 okay so you feel slighted about the game. This is a vid and convo about the lore. Did they lie about the lore? They didn't and never presented it as pure cannon. So like I said before. Cheer up buttercup and enjoy something for once.
Even after 50 minutes of Lore Breaks, the one that they 100% should have still done was have Talion walk into the light. It was such an emotional scene especially with Fires of War in the background.
I look at the story as in The Force Unleashed. It's fun but takes BIG liberaties with the source matereal. It' wasn't as fanficcy there as in here but what ever.
Yes Force Unleashed is a good comparison. Funnily as a lore fan, I had also huge problems with this game at first, same with SoM, but at some point I accepted it as a very fun game ^^
@@ThePhilosophersGames as a bit more of a Star Wars fan: TFU doesn't break the Star Wars lore. Even the power levels presented aren't really unpresidented in the EU (which is the continuity TFU belongs to).
You could excuse Talion going to the Afterlife when the Ring was destroyed by saying that he did not seek the Ring for Revenge or personal gain, he took it knowing full and well that it would be his demise and accepted the consequences that came with it. Then he used it to fight against the Evil of Sauron as a kind of warden untill the Ring overpowered his will, this sacrifice might have been what would cause Eru or Mandos to make an exception for him since he wasn't corrupted into taking the Ring out of Greed. Same as how Bilbo and Frodo were able to resist the ring for longer because they did not take it out of desire.
That is a good argument. I would say you can argue in both directions. He knew, that he would do terrible things at one point (when the transformation was complete) and accepted this. It's a very extreme case and I think the main problem is that he is a human/men. This rejecting the gift of men thing. Also there is the story about Gorlim, who became a wraith (pretty much the only known, that is not tied to rings). he fought Morgoth in the First Age and got captured by Sauron and tortured and "pressured" (not sure if black mail would be the right word), because Sauron seemed to have his wife too . In this extreme he just told Sauron where his Lord Barahir hides. He screwed up once, but became a wraith. When it comes to elves, it seems to be more generous, if we look at Celebrimbot's grandfather, who literally murdered his own people (to steal their ships), to get his revenge on Morgoth. Ofc I whish Talion to find peace :D But lore wise it's at least debatable.
@@ThePhilosophersGames i fully accept this arguement But at this point its literally a court case exept with gods Mann... Talion must be still signing papers that the ring waslike Contract for talion to keep in "Stasis" for what 60 years I mean for a god it must be a moment he was like Eru:U died go to heaven Talion:w-wait moment Talion:ok now we can go
@@ThePhilosophersGames I Believe, Talion is not dead. How Carnan said: "Not Lifless, but deathless" Celebrimbor could have been denied the right to go to Afterlife, cos he sided with Sauron one point in time (According to the game). It doesn't explaine his powers, but still... Maybe, he's something like ringwraiths, cos he's somehow "connected" to them, cos he created them, like Sauron created The One Ring and couldn't be killed without destroying the ring... Cos the whole game narative is around Duality (Celebrimbor/Sauron, Galadriel/Shelob, Dominate to protect/to control and etc)
Thank you :) Ofc there are huge differences (and I wished it would be closer to the original), but there are also some interesting references (which I appreciate), so I tried to explain both, which probably helped, that it did not sound as negative as my Shadow of Mordor video, where I focused only on the differences (I still like Shadow of Mordor).
I like to think of Talion as a myth men in LOTR spread to one another. It would explain any inconsistencies with the lore. “Talion the Gravewalker, the man who enthralled the Uruk-hai to his own ranks!”
Celebrimbor doesn't need to go to the halls of Mandos to have a life again or regain his power. Some Elves refused the summons of Mandos and became the Houseless spirits. These Elves had to forcefully take new bodies to return to life which is similar to what Celebrimbor did. Not to mention the Black Numenoreans had conducted a necromantic ritual to bind the spirit of Celebrimbor to Sauron but he instead was bound to Talion's body as Talion was dying. Being that in the game Celebrimbor had helped make the one ring and was bound to it I don't think it would be far off to venture the guess that Celebrimbor is like Sauron at this time. A shadow of his former self bound to the one ring caught between life and death as a Nazgul would be and the fact that he obtains a body much like a houseless spirit would allow him to once again obtain the power he had in life. It's also important to note that the Nazgul have no original power over death or other sorceries either. They receive their powers of sorcery/necromancy from Sauron, so one could assume that the shared bond between Celebrimbor, Sauron, and the One Ring also allows Celebrimbor access to similar powers of sorcery. The only thing I think is off is when Talion puts on Isildurs ring and he basically becomes a Nazgul (or at least gets their powers) almost immediately. Gollum had the One Ring for hundreds of years and even he hadn't fully transitioned into the wraith world yet and Talion wasn't stabbed by any morgul blade either to quicken the process. So I think given the lore Talion would have died after Celebrimbor left and he put on Isildur's ring. I don't think that would have saved him. Just my two cents lol
Honestly, I am quite glad to meet a person who doesn’t see this game as “MURDER OF ORIGINAL CANON!” and just enjoys for what it is. Great video btw. It is interesting to see many references that were put into this game which I missed or didn’t understood. Just a question, have you played any of the dlcs for that game? It is quite fun (desolation of Mordor is slightly unfair though) and BoG one has the best orcs is the game. If you played them, what is your opinion on them. Side question, if Monolith will creat a sequel to SoW (which is quite possible) how would you envision it? Is it even possible for the Orc army to rise even without Sauron? And if it can, who will lead it? A human or an Orc?
Thank you :) As a huge Tolkien fan it took a while to "accept" SoM, but I liked it game wise and it also had many correct lore references. Just the main plot is not as "book friendly" as the marketing said it would be. Still I enjoyed both games. And it also was a reason to make two interesting videos and why my channel got quite popular (the SoM lore comparison, which also sounds a bit more negative was my first little breakthrough on YT). So I also ow the game series. But as said: beyond lore, i think they were pretty interesting and fun games, even when i was more sceptical. I did not play the DLCs, but checked BoG's story and thought about making a video, but it took a lot of freedom lore wise, that I decided to not make another lore comparison. But it looked like the new ideas for orcs, etc looked really fun. The games put their finger on an interesting aspect: domination. It's unrelastic, that an "evil" Elf could get that level of domination, but originally Morgoth's and then later Sauron's influence on the orcs (throgh their powerful evil will) is a key ingredient on the Orcs existence (at least most orcs I would say). When Morgoth was defeated, orcs lost order and purpose and started to kill each other in great confusion. So you would need somebody powerful enough to control them. I think the time span between LotR and SoW has become too small, so make a sequel, but Mordor became Sauron's realm in Second Age 1000, so I would say a Shadow of Mordor game playing in that time would be interesting. The question would be: who is the Shadow? ^^ Or maybe later, when Sauron was not there (fled into the far East) and only his servants were active. Gondor controlled parts of Mordor for quite some time from the beginning of the Third Age to the time of the kin-strife in Gondor (Third Age 1447) and Great Plague Third Age 1637. So that would be possible too.
ThePhilosophersGames I really hope that if the sequel happens, this time we will play as an Orc, simply because I like the idea of being a low-some grunt in Mordor and then slowly growing to a legendary warrior with his own campaign (and that sounds honestly more lore friendly than the SoW). I mean, Tolkien wanted to develop Orcs a bit more, but he never managed to, and I believe games got that spect right: to create a development for orcs which they lacked in original material. They actually seems like an individuals with twisted out-view of the world. (Like, this game stated that Orcs were capable of cultural activity, which is proven ingame with existence of Bards, Historians, Scribes etc. or that their society is build up in power struggle etc.) It actually would be fun if we played as either an original breed of Orc or special breed and slowly became either a legendary Sauron’s servant, or maybe something that Sauron desperately wants out of his way (like an Orc who rebels against Sauron’s will due to being loyal to Morgoth or seeing Sauron as weak individual). Or, it can take venue bolder move and base a game after a fall of Sauron with main character trying to creat Order within now leaderless Orc society. But that is unlikely, since, well, WB won’t see post book/movie middle earth as something interesting.
Yes that's sound cool too and would fit the SoM/SoW style games. I could also imagine like a game (even though that would be a very different one), where you have to manage Mordor and slowly build up armies, equipment and supplies (I like tycoon games ^^). You could maybe play this from the perspective of an orc commander in the SoM/SoW style and follow a story too (where building armies for Sauron and equipment influences the game too). I think there is a lot of potential.
Gameplay wise, I enjoy it, no denying in that. Buuuuut its still lore rape, warner bros took a deep stinkin shittter on Tolkien's work! Again, I like gameplay and I still play it. Like others said here, I look it in a certain view to make it bearable. Also, why can't people see it like what you said tho? Have you read the books? Read them and come back, I guarantee you'll change your opinion unless you lack reading comprehension and analysis skill. Also if it wern't for the gameplay and warner bros, this would've been shambles from getgo. Fun fact, ima be namin me future son Celebrimbor 💪😁
Okay so I've been thinking about the Isildur thing and I have some thoughts on it. First of all we need to acknowledge the game dev economic realities: They already had Gondorian soldier sprites in the game from the prologue before Minas Ithil falls, and it's a lot easier and cheaper to reskin those into ghosts for the player to summon in the post-game than to make some kind of brand new wraith minions for you to summon, so of course they want to tie that into the story somehow. All that said, let's talk about Isildur. So even within the frame, the histories of middle-earth are just that, histories. They are the best estimation of events based on the probably often conflicting reports of the many eyewitnesses. But we do know pretty conclusively that Isildur's body was never found, I imagine that detail would be pretty consistent. But the poison used on the arrows is probably just the best guess of the historian, who may be embellishing to highlight the dangers presented by the orcs even after Sauron's fall. It's easy to assume that the party of orcs sent to capture Isildur was armed with a powerful paralysis poison: one that might appear as death on the battlefield. And it's also easy to imagine that the orcs brought the paralyzed body of Isildur to Barad-Dur and there gave him a ring of power (perhaps recovered from the least of the nine, who perhaps fell in the great battle while the attention of men and elves were on the deaths of their high kings?) before he was able to slip into death, and breaking him in the tower so he became a Ringwraith much faster than the other eight. It could actually work without violation of canon at all I think.
The body of Isildur is found by Saruman as Aragorn and friends later find out in Orthanc after the war. The problem is there are a lot of assumptions. Paralysing poison (never mentioned anywhere), etc. But that is not how Isldur died. The orcs saw his brow glowing red due to using the one Ring and thought he was some kind of monster when he came out of the water in the darkness (orcs have some night vision) and shot in its direction and fled in terror. If they had his body, they would also have his possessions, like the One Ring (he still had it when he came out of the water). The whole idea of Tolkien is, that after this the One Ring falls out of history. Not even Sauron and his servants know where it is and this includes Isildur's remains including the Star of Elendil or Elendilmir, which Aragorn/King Elessar finds later in Orthanc.
Just beat SoW. Very fun game but clearly more of an exploration of the going-ons of the orks and Mordor itself. Though the game is a bit “cartoonish” in its depiction of what are mindless murder monsters. Still, I don’t often go for 100% completion in a game but this is definitely one I will be doing that for. Shame about the pay to win stuff crippling it on release. Hopefully WB throws us another. I’d love to see a return of Conquest but set before the War of the Ring. Perhaps LOTR Conquest: The Last Alliance?
The thing about the orcs is that their personalities kind of needed to be a little bit cartoonish. It reduces the chance that the orcs you've interacted with most will begin to blend together in your head
I think the core thematic idea behind the New Ring was that incredible power doesn't need dark forces behind it to corrupt. It can do a perfectly good job of that by itself. It's a mess lore-wise, but I appreciate that about it. It's also a decent elaboration on the idea of Sauron's character, that even if it may stem from good intentions, seeking power above all else is a road to evil
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. No one is immune for this, not even the pure perfect elves, and I love that. It was a deep sense of complexity that is wholly absent form the books.
I appreciate the effort you took to explain these. I think most of us agree that the lore does not really fit the canon but you do admit plausibility/possibility where it can exist. Most others I've heard just say what is wrong with everything and that the changes were impossible but don't make the additional step of seeing if it could work. (We know it can't - developers know it can't but still some of us can try.)
In my SoM lore comparison video I also only focused on what is not possible, but getting some feedback and seeing the discussion in the comments I decided to also include what is possible and some references. So thank you :) Nice that you like the change ^^
First, I'm pretty sure the idea is that Talion isn't dead he's just dy-ing and celebrimbor's spirit and then the ring for keeping his body intact and making him "banished from death" as the game puts it. Second, I'd say the ending cutscene is him being forced to wander Middle Earth forever like you said but he sees that as Paradise compared the constant War he's been through for years at this point. All in all though good video!
that was a great summary. I think they were a bit clueless about Tolkien's lore because it wasn't clearly a number 1 priority to stick to it, so they didn't try that hard to be consistent. Game was entertaining though.
To be fair you would have to treat the Silmarrion like a history text book with classes and tests. Ive read it twice and have great reading retention and would be hard pressed to create extra content and keep historical accuracy intact.
I just imagine the games as an alternate reality of Tolkien's universe where in the forging of the ring's celebrimbor was somehow bound to them somewhat like sauron is, And because of that (and his immense hate for sauron acting like an anchor keeping him in middle earth)it makes his fëa not able to move on to the halls of Mandos and grants abilities a normal wraith wouldn't have. Absolutely love tolkiens world, he truly is one of a kind, it blows my mind how many thousands of years of history that man wrote all out of pure imagination, and He took it so many steps further creating actual history not just some fairytale, He created multiple legitimate languages, he created a world so complete that it tells you how the very universe was created to how it would end. People in the future are going to find his books one day and think it was some historian from a alternate dimension
Interesting points, but I can't help but wonder. All the cases of Eru's interventions are all plot convient points. As much as Tolkien did not like using magic, he does use it to 'ensure' specific outcomes, such as the ring. As much that the game gets wrong, some parts could in theory, make sense. For example, the Nazghul reverting (and talion) back to human is almost entirely going to happen, because they had never died. They could not become powerless shadows because they never really died in the first place, which is why they couldn't go to Mandos or become a wraith/ghost, so I imagine that this implies that until Mount Doom's final explosion, they could not die. What I am curious about though is if Eru himself could be partly responsible for preventing Talion's ultimate demise, but if Eru did intervene for Talion, I can see Eru keeping him alive a bit longer after the fact. In a sense, Talion's use of Isildur's ring was a sacrificial move to delay Sauron before his will was bound and subjugated, and isn't quite something we can say is a damning move, if Eru is assumed to have intervened. When the Ring war ends, I could actually see this happening. We know Bilbo and Frodo were removed from Middle Earth because of the effects the ring had on them, and the same can be applied towards Talion. If this is a case of Eru's intervention where Talion was made to slow down the shadow, I don't see it in Eru's character to just toss a servant of his will to the wind, and Eru would know where that path would end. Perhaps it's not Talion in the after life in the true ending, but rather with his curse broken, Eru prevents his body's death and calls him to Valanor to finally have peace, and because he still suffers from possible effects of the Rings. A part of me has to wonder though. A lot of people say one thing or another about how a Maiar can't be surpassed, yet Sauron did take on students. It is the nature of craftsmen to teach students who refine their teacher's work. In this sense, I have to wonder whether or not celebrimbor actually could have become a very good ring maker, and surpassed Sauron. Sauron was not faultless, and I imagine the same can be of his rings. Perhaps not what happens in the actual lore, but I can see some parts of this such as Celebrimbor being able to replicate work or improve on it. As far as Shelob, I also wonder this, but Ungoliant's power was rather extreme. If a Balrog is bad, Ungoliant is a nightmare. Even if she bred with lower spiders, her child being just a spider seems..off. It doesn't make sense. A favored form certainly, but I don't think shapeshifting is off the menu when shelob shared a much more literal dark webs. For context, she is literally turning shadows into physical manifestations that can bind people. I can only wonder then what else is not stated. I concede here that a lot doesn't fit, but then a lot can be called arbitrary about things, such as Maiar. For example, Gandalf should 100 percent always surpass Sauron in power at all levels, especially backed up by others. That Sauron is somehow stronger without the ring and weakened, despite no actual attributable traits making him so is very arbitrary from a story standpoint. It's good for the writing, but consistency it's a small caveat. Ultimately, it's not a lore friendly game, but it isn't obscene either I think. In a way, it creates a somewhat more interesting world. A side question, but One of the Valar, the one who amde the Dwarves, did not make life but animated stone which he called Dwarves until Eru gave them true life. What is the chance the Necromancer Zog wasn't qoute, using Necromancy, so much as a form of golemancy, aka, a magic that animates something, like say..a corpse?
That's a good theory. Some people here in the comments argued in a similar direction. I would say you can argue in both directions. For example if you look at Gorlim, who became a wraith. I wrote about it in another answer: There is the story of Gorlim, who fought with Barahir against Morgoth, but he got captured and tortured. Sauron suggested a a deal, that if he tells him where Barahir hides, he will be reunited with his wife. So Gorlim told Sauron. And Sauron explained, that his wife is dead and killed him too. He became a restless spirit too (Gorlim tried to warn Barahir's son though). So even with Gorlim fighting Morgoth and Sauron his whole life, enduring torture, this one time "screwed" him. Same could be said about Talion. (ofc there are some differences) And if you argue with Eru, I would agree, that in this case Talion should find peace. Maybe in Valinor as you point out. But I think when it comes to the Nazgûl and the ring bearers, who made it to Valinor there is a major difference. The Ring bearers tried to avoid Sauron, but probably failed, but they made things no other could. Bilbo was able to give the One Ring away. What a deed. Frodo and Sam made it to Mount Doom. They failed in destroying the One Ring themselves, but were very close to success. But I definitely see you point. I would argue, that Sauron did not took students, he took servants. he wanted to dominate the elves, but they didn't trust him. Gil-ggald and Elrond kicked him out. Galadriel wanted to, but had no power in Eregion. Saurom smartly did not come with already prepared artifacts, but taught them to forge their doom themselves, without them understanding his designs. Those rings were build to corrupt. But elves were to strong. I agree though probably Celebrimbor could have made better rings of power, actually he did, with the 3 elven rings. But hec ould not wield his sprit like Sauron did and put it into a ring. So if the New Ring would be just a better version of a ring of power I would agree with you, but it's like a new One Ring, with a part of Celebrimbor in it. The Bright Lord with Ring/Dark Lord with Ring theme makes it clear too I guess. I agree with Shelob, I just think it does not fit the tone of her nature or her description in the books. But That is just my opinion. She was definitely more than jut a giant spider. But: she was also a giant spider. The reason, why I said in the video that it is possible/plausible is, because that we have one other example. We have a half Ainur in the First Age: Lúthien. Her Mother Melian was a powerful Maia and her father an elf. She could change her form maybe-ish. She Took the form of the mentioned Thuringwethil and flew to Angband, but she used her "bat-fell", so it was not like she could just change her form however she wanted. But I agree, her changing her form has plausibility. Not sure if Gandalf could overpower Sauron (without the One Ring) so easily (but ofc with help that is true). He fought for days against the Balrog and he had a Ring of Power. Sauron also took his time to regain strength (centuries). Ofc he was not at his peak (esp. without the One Ring), but still very powerful. The concept of power is also quite complex. What does power mean? Sauron was powerful because of his armies, corruption, plans and many successes during the Third Age, that even the Istari could not prevent. But I understand your point. That's an interesting idea. The dead could just be like marionettes. But i would still argue why an orc should wield power like this, when the Vala Aulë was operating at the limits of his power. But still i like this idea. Thanks for commenting :) Good read.
Props to you Formous....SOW & SON definately forms a more interesting world & a more interesting game. Imagine if the game stuck to the immediate limits of the LORE lore, the game would probably suck alot. Most of the powers of Talion have an explanation & make sense in accordance of the game & these unlockable skills make the game more interesting. Imagine the limitations of the powers if the game followed the Lotr lore strictly, every explanation in the game makes sense & is understandable to the player & I believe that if Eru was always interfering in Middle Earth, why couldnt he intefere in the story of SOW???? Its possible that Eru was present in SOW but they did not explain how much he was present in the events that transpired in SOW
I absolutely love this video man you truly make some very awesome and beautifully detailed lore and lore comparasion vids of Tolkien's wonderful and great world of Middle Earth and I like the games very much too I completely agree with everything you said in this I love SOW and SOM but when it comes to Tolkien's lore its way off but I don't mind can't wait for another video!!!!! :)
The power levels seem consistent with Legolas behavior in the Hobbit :P And Shelob shouldn't have shapeshifted in the game. A psychological projection or illusion or even a wraith-like spirit projection may be better.
Personally? My theory is that WB had access to the Yennefer model from The Witcher 3, saw they were going to use Shelob and were thinking that talking to a spider might freak people out. So, they tweaked the model a bit, and slipped in best Geralt waifu to make it more 'palatable'. Just my theory. I still think talking to the spider version would've been scary levels of fun.
actually I think Shelob doesn't shapeshift. I think it's how Talion and Celebrimbor see her in the spectral plane. They just don't always show it that way
The only idea that might mitigate some of the clash is that most of the notable events that act as exceptions to the rules of death are one off events. So perhaps the power of these characters are the first and only instances of these things being possible. It is a huge stretch, I know.
Am I the only one who wants a simple game? With like a company of Ithilen rangers or something? Fighting a small campaign against raiding orcs/corsairs? with a personal story that doesn't require lore rape?
Yes possible, but I remember multiple occasions, where this is implied, that they all can't be metaphorical. Reading the books over the years after this video released confirmed the statement from the video even more.
haha happy you like it ^^ Always great to talk about Tolkien and I know arachnophobia is quite common, so I hint at it, even though Shadow of War Shelob in her spiderform does not look that spider like, more like some kind of big Zerg from StarCraft ^^ (the in-between transformation form looks scary though)
In SOM it's somewhat explained within Talions character overview. Somehow Celebrimbor acts as some sort of conduit that is similar to a ring of power. As for how that is possible: maybe through that ritual you see during the prolouge where Talions throat gets sliced. I belive that ritual was first used by sauron in that flashback in Mount doom where they forged the one ring to somehow bind Celebrimbors spirit until he proves useful again. But that's only my theory for that legends topic
Yes I thought it was helpful for people with arachnophobia (i think it's quite common in the west). Feedback so far was very positive and glad it helped :) Thank you for commenting!
But they are just like cats. If you like cute eyes, fuzzy things and little legs, spiders just have more of everything. A lot of beautiful eyes, a lot of legs, a fuzzy abdomen and the ability to build hammocks everywhere. Sounds great right. They are also great roommates, if you've ever found change in places where you didn't expect money, it's just spiders paying rent. They also get rid of mosquitos, flies and crickets for you.
spiders are amazing vreatures arachnafobia is a unrational fear.if you keep spiders you never worry about pests .and they are realy beautifull and have amazing physiology. i have normal house spiders i keep i clear the webs when they break or get dusty.and i have tarantulas in terarriums. facinating creatures that really do not harm i can pickup my spiders at any moment and pet them a little bit.
@@ricardomeertens9165 You might want to check your spelling first, it's "arachnophobia" by definition PHOBIAS are irrational fears ._. it's literally in the definition of the word.
I'm honestly a fan of mixing things up in the lore for the sake of a fun game. It's essentially a fanfic, where you can run around and have fun with a Tolkein setting. Part of me wants them to go balls to the wall crazy and make a 3rd game involving the Valar and Morgoth returning. Be badass fun being able to fight literal gods.
I would also like to play as an Uruk, sort of rouge like except you're sort of possessing them and keep certain skills, but lose the orcs individual traits. Like a swapped perspective shadow of Mordor/war.
They hint at a third game at the end of the dlc with the elf but most people including myself absolutely do not want that. The elf lady blew her chance at being a decent character when she betrayed talion and took the ring then do jack all with it but betray talion again.
Actually I disagree with you on 1 thing Talion and Celebrimbors Fusion would be possible based on the fact that Celebrimbor wore the 1 Ring at one point. If he became a wraith like the ring wraiths it might bypass Sauron not having power over the dead. Due tho that change in the lore it could theoretically allow this to work this would also be allowed since the wraiths are technically undead in Tolkiens books.
Also Celebrimbor’s situation is unique Sauron basically banned him from going to the afterlife as references in the DLC (he says he’ll do this in taunts and straight up says you are banished from death) It seems dodgy but considering we know Morgoth’s spawning of werewolves involved a similar process of controlling spirits, the Witch King does something similar with the Wights and Sauron is alluded to as a Necromancer of great import It’s not really out of line to say Sauron could bind someone to Mordor in a capacity. It’s certainly different to instances we see in lore but precedent is still somewhat there
Based on everything mentioned about death, the one possible explanation I can think of for Talion's survival is that whatever sort of chant the Hand of Sauron said while killing Talion and his family doesn't necessarily just banish one from death, but rather it simply binds the individual it's being performed on to Sauron and/or his minions, so when their spirit is judged, they appear to be tainted and/or corrupted by the darkness of Sauron, and so are banished from whatever afterlife or peace once awaited them. As for Celebrimbor, I assume that wearing the One Ring, even if only for a brief time, caused his spirit to be judged as unworthy due to the Ring containing a fraction of Sauron's own essence and soul, and so he was cast out and cursed to be a Wraith.
I think the problem with this is, that it would still give a lot of power to those servants and Sauron, while Mandos himself is vastly more powerful and wise (so is Eru). Also the end implies that Talion could have moved on to a peaceful afterlife. It's strange. For SoM/SoW Celebrimbor: if we look at the other Ring bearers we don't really see that (in the books he is ofc not a Ring bearer and as a result this problem does not exist). Some Elves maybe have done worse and could still enter Madnos Halls. I guess it's in addition not the problem, that an Elf becomes a wraith, but that he is so powerful as one. Even preventing a human body to die and his soul to not move on to the afterlife is really a feed that is unheard of. It would be different if Talion would have been killed with a Morgul blade and "transformed" into a wraith, but that is not what we see.
Also talion actually did become a nazgul and replaced isildur after decades of fighting of the forces of darkness as the ring slowly corrupted him and then the witch king came and made talion a ringwraith but talion then pretty much dies after the one ring is destroyed by froto in lotr it also shows him walking in a meadow as he drops all his gear as he is walking but I guess that doesn't really make since because we don't know where men go when they die but I thought I'd put this out there as a detail you missed or you already said all this and I typed this for nothing
It should be in the video. But ofc there is not evidence for this in the books' lore and Isildur can't be a Ringwraith from the books' perspective too.
Thank you for not being the absolute fucking worst and just cause shadow of war doesn’t care about the lore doesn’t mean people who do lore comparisons need to be the worst 10/10 video
47:35 its also worth noting that at that time the white council also had access to not one or two but three rings of power (the elven ones) when they attacked, so thats another reason for power disparity
Truthfully I feel like the bigger lore problem isn't how many times Celebrimbor and Sauron would have had to march all over middle earth, but the sheer fact that Celebrimbor was not only capable of USING the one ring against Sauron (which according to Tolkien only a Maiar would have had a real chance of accomplishing) but that Sauron needed Celebrimbor to finish making the ring for him. I'm assuming Carnan was intended to be an Entwife until someone pointed out Ents don't have magical shapeshifting powers and then she was rewritten to be more ambiguous. I must point out that Tolkien doesn't reference an 'ice drake' but rather a 'cold drake' and it's not clear if he means by that a dragon which can breathe ice or simply a dragon that's unable to breathe fire. Tolkien confirms that Sauron did bring the One ring with him to Numenor and managed to carry it off after it was destroyed. We don't know if he brought any other rings with him or if he even had any at that point that were not already bestowed elsewhere. Personally I think one of the most confusing elements in the game is how much it completely rejects Tolkien's philosophy of how you can't defeat evil by practicing its crafts. Both Celebrimbor and Talion succumb to this philosophy. Worse still the game presents Celebrimbor's actions as a fall and Talion's as a noble sacrifice when in essence there is really no difference between them.
Yes I fully agree. Esp. with the last point regarding Tolkien's philosophy. It's like the most "un-Tolkien" story ever. Yes it's ofc not clear if a "cold-drake" could have an "ice-breath" or something in this direction, but as said I assume it references those and they imagine them like that. I would not blame them for coming up with this idea ^^ But good point. At the time of Ar-Pharazôn, Sauron already gave (at least) his 16 (or 15 depending on your stance on when Durin got his Ring) Rings of Power he had to Dwarves and Men. The Nazgûl appear Second Age 2251 for the first time, Ar-Pharazôn was born Second Age 3118. Ofc Sauron could have collected the Rings from his Nazgûl and taken them with him to Númenor, but I see this as very unlikely. Really nice post ^^
I'm confused on how you mean the game rejects Tolkien's philosophy? Shelob (ignoring the tangent about her) says that Talion and Celebrimbor would've ended up replacing Sauron if they did fight him and win. Also Celebrimbor spends most of the early game saying of how perfect and free of corruption is new ring is, which sets up, storytelling-wise, how wrong he is when he ends up trying to fight for more power as the "Bright Lord." Talion differs from Celebrimbor in that he says he fighting for a better future for Middle-Earth, not simply Celebrimbor replacing Sauron, which causes Talion to be left for dead for good. And Talion doesn't even win when using Isildur's ring, at best getting stalemate before getting corrupted finally, which seems pretty fitting for LotR, having him finally succumb.
@@GMP1isReal Talion is using one of the Rings. Hes fighting Sauron using Saurons own craft. Yes it isn't Saurons ring nor did he make it personally but Talion is using dark sorcery (like necromancy) against Sauron. Tolkiens entire philosophy is that you can't fight evil using evils own arts.
@@mattmagliocca956 Defeat and Fight are two different things. Talion couldn't defeat Sauron but he did fight him. There is no reason why that wouldn't have been the case.
I think that celebrimbor merged remains of his soul and talion to empower him so he could survive but also stall talions death and besides it's not impossible for him to create the ring feanor created the silmarrilions so it's not implausible
As explained in detail in the video, that is not possible from the books' perspective, but feel to provide evidence, because to my knowledge dead elves don't empower other people and are not complete without their own body. Fëanor was the most powerful Elf "smith" in existence and he did not empower anyone after his death by becoming an Elf wraith. The whole idea makes no sense in Tolkien's universe and contradicts the principles of fëa and hröa. I also don't see how a dead Elf can stop the death of a Man and basically deny the effect of the "Gift of Men", which was given to them by none other than God himself. Also how does talions's body work? When he dies he suddenly respawns somewhere else? Why can he climb those destroyed towers? The whole concept seems not fully thought through. I mean the immortality of Talion is better than the immortality of the Ainur, because he does not lose power on death of his body. That makes no sense. It is possible to create a Ring, but not when Celebrimbor is dead and the Ring seems to basically require putting a part of himself into it (like the One), which elves can't do (only Ainur) and I never have heard that Fëanor made any rings without his own body.
There's still plenty of holes in the theory I'm about to put here but I think maybe it could explain some stuff? I think Celebrimbor's soul was partially corrupted after he wielded the power of the One Ring (some of it anyway). Towards the end of the DLC for Shadow of Mordor, he is clearly changing, relishing in his control over the orcs. So he was not able to pass into the afterlife, and became something akin to the ringwraiths. His bond to Talion as far as I know has no basis in Tolkien's lore, but perhaps Celebrimbor was only able to possess Talion because Talion specifically was used to summon Celebrimbor back to Mordor? He only seemed able to possess Eltariel when she wore the new ring.
Ok, I'm about 3 years late to this party, and never got around to beating Shadow of Mordor (kept getting hunted down by this immortal orc immune to arrows, fire, sneak attacks, and who literally could only be killed by decapitation), but the Silmarillion kinda argues against you on the "putting some of himself into the ring" thing, what with Fëanor putting so much of his own essence into the titular artefacts, that being (in part) why they could never be recreated. So putting your own spirit into crafts is a thing elves can do, or at least Fëanor could. That is, unless the game is talking about something deeper than what Fëanor did, or if there's some explained distinction that I'm not picking up on.
For the Silmarilli Fëanor managed to put the Light of the Two Trees into them. I don't remember a mention of him putting a part of his spirit into these gems. Only that Varda also hallowed them.
@@ThePhilosophersGames It's taken me a couple days to track down my copy of the Silmarillion, and I concede that you are right, it never explicitly says that he put any of his spirit into the gems (apperently my memory just made that up). That said, his statement that he could never again make their like implies that it was more than just a physical thing that went into their creation. I'm still going to comb through more of Tolkien's works, because I'm still not sure that it is just my memory being bad, but I concede for the time being. However, there _is_ one instance of something being created by an elf that explicitly states that it consumed the spirit of its creator, although I'm not sure if the creation of Fëanor himself really counts in the same way.
In the History of Middle-earth books some of the other versions (Tolkien worked on) of many stories from the Silmarillion are published. Maybe there is something in it. I have to admit I don't quite remember for the Silmarilli, but I think in early versions they were less important and the idea of the Arkenstone from the Hobbit was distantly related (or borrowed) (see History of the Hobbit). So I would not be surprised if there would be another version of their creation. However how canon those old or newer draft/work in progress versions were is hard to say. I mean even the canon of the Silamrillion is heavily debated among some groups. I can't remember an instance where an Elf put his spirit into an object, because from what we know Elves could not "wield" their spirit freely. The spirit was bound to the body and it needed the body o be complete, else an Elf would fade or become a "phantom". This seems to be different for Ainur. The only objects (outside of the One Ring) that was a bit mysterious, maybe with a will of its own and which talked to its owner was Gurthang (made out of Anglachel). It was made by the Elves of Nargothrond (the original was made by Eöl the Dark Elf). The other was the Talking Purse of the Troll William. these two instances are very mysterious or mythological or you could say very "fairy tale-esque". Ofc there are also the statues in Cirith Ungol, but that again is Sauron's work. That is all I can think off.
Wulf isn't the man who ambushes Helm in Shadow of War, it is another man named Siric who is a Rohirrim Warlord with Dunlending heritage, he also spent years trying to make peace between the Dunlednings and Rohirrim. But Shadow of War lore says he was there when Freca demanded Aelda marry Wulf. It also says the daughter he wished to marry was named Bernwyn and that they did marry in secret when he saved from from Dunlendings and they had a child named Siri (short version Siric I guess). Anyway thought you should know they were two different people who are basically the same in that they both asked to marry Helm's daughter and got denied. It is claimed the reasons he tried to assassinate Helm was because he fear Helm was growing corrupt and tyrannical after he saw Helm kill Freca so he and "Loyal Rohirrim Rangers" went to kill Helm. But I'm pretty sure that just the cover up for him getting denied Bernwyns hand in marriage
I can't remember if I said this in one of my previous comments So I don't know if it's something the devs said or a theory, but here it is: There's an existing explanation about Isildur being a Nazgul. Some say that the devs take the reasoning that the nine we see in the game are not necessarily the first nine nazguls and some nazguls died before the story. So if you take that explanation, it could be argued than Isildur isn't one of the first nazguls at all, and he was just taken after so he can replace a dead Nazgul (I can't tell how one would kill a nazgul but it's a fairly common explanation I've read quite a few times)
So i have a question about deaths in middle earth. Elves go to valinor humans go somewhere beyond time I think? And dwarves await the end of the world to rebuild it. But what about hobbits and orcs?
Hobbits are closely related to men (and counted as men i guess, just quite small :D), so they have most likely the same fate as them. They all wait in the halls of Mandos for some time. For Orcs i don't have a good answer. Tolkien originally made them corrupted elves, but he distanced himself from that idea and wanted to change it, but he never decided before he died. So we actually don't know. There is so much lore, but sadly Orcs are a mystery.
ThePhilosophersGames funny that hobbits are more related to men than dwarves. I always thought hobbits would have come about by a cross breeding between the two.
If I had to guess about Orcs, I'd say they might be similar to the Nazgul in that their spirits don't really go anywhere and just linger on in Middle-Earth since they're highly corrupted Elves similar to how Nazgul are highly corrupted men. That's my assumption.
8:23 You know, the way the ring is being forged in this cutscene seems very silly. Shouldn't he have just some warm gold that was poked through with an iron spike or something? And then worked with more sophisticated tools? I mean, I'm not a goldsmithing expert, but the watching him slam down with a hammer trying to look all epic for this historic moment in the Simarillion, while at the same time trying not to make the (supposedly unfinished) ring bounce off the anvil with the force of the blow...it just looks remarkably impractical and under-researched.
Yes, that's a good point ^^ For fun I checked this video about making a rose gold diamond ring: ua-cam.com/video/eLlv2WC1Fv4/v-deo.html Quite interesting.
To be fair, he is forging items like they are in videogames. You slam a hammer on an anvil and wait for the bar to fill, then the background algorithm rolls for item quality. Bam. Ring of power.
I’m kinda disappointed that not a lot of it fits in the lore because I REALLY like it. I think the story is really cool but because it doesn’t fit very well with the original source it gets so much backlash.
if I understood correctly, at the end of the game, Sauron doesn't really appear in a fair form against Celebrimbor and Eltariel. He appears in the same dimension in which Celebrimbor can manifest himself and interact with Talion and Eltariel, that's kind of the same. So only Celebrimbor, Sauron, Celebrimbor's ring bearer, and probably Sauron's ring bearers can interact with this plane of manifestation. It's a fight that happens in their plane. I guess a normal human could only see Eltariel shadow slashing while they fight to the death.
@@mitsunitaiko1742 no problem ^^ My question was: wouldn't this other "plane" reveal his true evil form too, which is not fair? (the other plane is I assume what Tolkien called the "Unseen")
@@ThePhilosophersGames I don't believe there's a name given to this plane they're in. It's a plane Celebrimbor and Sauron are in and other people manage to interact with it. Namely Talion because of his connection to Celebrimbor and the ring, Eltariel maybe because of Galadriel's light, Gollum maybe because he wore the one ring and probably the Nazguls, and let's not forget Shelob. But Gollum doesn't seem to be able to interact with Celebrimbor, he can see and talk to him but I don't feel like he could touch him for example. While Shelob clearly can so she can interact in this plane
10:05 on the point of Shelob. In the Hobbit Bilbo can understand giant spiders of Mirkwood (Shelob's kin) while wearing the one ring, Gloumn's prolonged exposure to the one ring is probably why she can communicate with Gollumn, this is a more plausible explanation than her being somewhat telepathic.
Yes, good point. Though it could also be explicitly a power of the One Ring directly. Telepathic abilities are also not unusual in Tolkien's universe (e.g. Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel also communicate telepathically at the end of the LotR books on their way to the Grey Havens. In the Nature of Middle-earth book we find some sections that explain it further too).
Similar to the explanation of The Hobbit, I never thought that Shelob was telepathically communicating with Talion, but that he was simply able to understand her because he wore the New Ring
Good watch, I was wondering how these are or aren't possible to be with the lore and story. I quite enjoyed the artifacts and items to help with some aspects I may not have known before, like farming equipment.. Also, it helped establish a want in me to research the base lore and those of the origins of the universe. Also, established a stronger need to know more of Tolkien himself, his works and how he formed his beautiful world. Though when it came to the second it became harder to comprehend how such things are of any sense with the game... I could somehow manage to accept a bit of the first game, because I believed it had room to tell a tale in the universe, but separate enough to excuse a few lore mishaps. Then I researched more on Celegrimbor and such other things, the characters seemed as different alternate universe versions of themselves.. Then I played the second game... I couldn't really believe Talion would fall to the darkness, yet have a good ending once defeated. He should have kept to remaining himself to be a good and brave man. Also, another game I felt may have better fit into the LOTR story is War In The North, despite the main characters bumping into Aragorn and such other important characters... Thanks for the video and the spider-warning. I have a great fear of all spiders.
Just thinking I might start this game, was a bit dubious, as I am a ridiculous Tolkien fan. this was the exact video I needed to make that decision. Thankyou muchly
It's a good game, but imo he story leaves the path of the books even more than Shadow of Mordor. I see it as some kind of "fanfiction" ^^ With this it was enjoyable for me.
When necromancy first appeared in the game, I thought it was more like just filling an empty Orc body with some evil nonsense and setting the result loose. Of course that's disproven later.
I dislike putting words in a dead man's mouth but i think Tolkien wouldn't be upset with this as a albeit terrible writer I always think up new things to add constantly. Who knows maybe ge would've added the ork hierarchy if he was alive.
haha happy you liked it ^^ I would have not imagined, that somebody listens to my videos while driving, but I guess it makes sense 😅 Have a safe journey/trip/drive ^^ (no idea what the correct phrase is :D )
Awesome video! I haven't played it yet myself, but I have watched all of the cutscenes on youtube. You broke everything down perfectly. And I had no idea that guy was supposed to be Ar-pharazon! Really strange. Him becoming a nazgul sort of ruins his demise in the Silmarillion, where he is trapped in the chasm opened by Eru, upon entering Valinor. That gets thrown out the window. Helm hammerhand really caught me off guard, too. I don't understand why they reference these really obscure (to most fans) characters, that only the hardcore fans will recognize, but they completely change everything about them. Oh well. Also, there's a major plothole I noticed... In the first game, didn't Sauron need to reunite with Celebrimbor in order to take a physical form? Yet in this game, he doesn't. I thought that was the whole point of the first game!
Hi :D yes you are right, they threw this unite to get physical form part totally out of the window, not that it ever made any sense ^^ But I forgot about that. I think they just wanted to put references in the game. In case of Ar-Pharazôn they probably don't have rights for his story anyway (forgot to mention this in the video). Ar-Pharazôn is mentioned in the Appendix A of LotR, so I assume they could have used his name. Helm Hammerhand is also mentioned in the books and even in the movies, even though not much. So the ones who really payed attention, get the reference I guess and give an "aha moment" (not sure if this expression is a thing in English). For people, who don't know the story it will definitely work. Not sure why the altered it that much though, probably to fit in the Nazgûl thing. PS: Thanks for commenting as always :)
ThePhilosophersGames yeah, you're probably right. Although, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that they had the rights to use anything mentioned in the appendices? Im 95% positive that they mentioned several characters and events in the first game that are only in the appendices, and not the actual (LotR) book. Such as the blue wizards, morgoth, Gorthaur, Sauron's name in the first age, etc. Am I mistaken? (Oh also "aha moment" is a commonly used expression in English as well, my friend ^^ )
Thanks :D Wasn't sure about that phrase :D I thought so too (that they can use the appendices), but maybe they don't have access to his [Ar-Pharazôn's] full story from the Silmarillion. Also I found the reference for Helm's Nazgûl idea (forgot about that). After Helm's death, legends or stories were told, that he still haunts that place and sometimes you can still hear his horn. But it's a "story" ofc: "There stood Helm, dead as a stone, but his knees were unbent. Yet men said that the horn was still heard at times in the Deep and the wraith of Helm would walk among the foes of Rohan and kill men with fear."
True, they wouldn't be able to use Ar-pharazon's full backstory, but I don't understand why this warranted a name change. Very odd. And that is really interesting about the legend of Helm living on as a Wraith! Never knew that before. Where did you find that? Unfinished tales, or the histories of middle earth?
No it's directly in the lord of the Rings appendices (Appendix A, The House of Eorl section; at the end). What is important to note here is: "Yet men said that ..." It's a "rumor" or legend, that sometimes people/foes still hear his horn. SO I wouldn't stretch that too far, but it's a reference I guess.
Imo if it didnt break lore it wouldve been boring. People dont seem to like the story, but i thought it was great. I can see ilúvitar bringing him back even as an undead. Maybe its a punishment as well. He held out much longer than the other wraiths seemed to and never really turned evil until very very end of his story. So like how many years did he hold off coruption? Chad talion, virgin calebrimbor
But didn't Saruman actually find Isildur's remains? Iirc, there is a section in Unfinished Tales(?) where Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas actually enter Orthanc. While inside, Gimli discovers a secret room and find both the Elendilmir (the royal jewel of the High King of Arnor and Gondor) and a silver chain, which is immediately recognized as the chain Isildur wore around his neck to carry the Ring, meaning Saruman must have found Isildur.
A good point. I read it a bit as, that he only found the Elendilmir and the chain, and we don't know about his body. But it could be and the people are wondering about it. However, that makes the SoW scenario even more impossible :) Quote: For it seemed to them that these things, and certainly the Elendilmir, could not have been found, unless they had been upon Isildur's body when he sank; but if that had been in deep water of strong flow they would in time have been swept far away. Therefore Isildur must have fallen not into the deep stream but into shallow water, no more than shoulder-high, Why then, though an Age had passed, were there no traces of his bones? Had Saruman found them, and scorned them - burned them with dishonour in one of his furnaces? If that were so, it was a shameful deed; but not his worst.
Late reply but it could be the chain fell from his neck and that’s all Saruman found The gemstone of Arnor could have come from any manner of places, perhaps it was looted and in an Orc or Troll Hoard, perhaps it was recovered and Saruman purchased it in his search for clues to the One Ring’s whereabouts
@@ItsButterBean1020 We know the Elendilmir was lost at Gladden Fields with the Ring as well and was on Isildur's person at the time. He was taking it with him to Arnor to be coronated and the only thing we know of to have been salvaged were the Shards of Narsil. Given that Saruman was obsessed with Gladden Fields (he rejected basically every other theory as to the Ring's location prior to Gandalf telling him about Bilbo and Gollum, only agreed to move on Sauron at Dol Guldur when he feared that he might find the Ring first, and went so far as to dredge the Anduin) it's reasonable to assume that Saruman found them in the same area.
Well, as long as Celebrimbor has not been granted a revival in Valinor, he is just a bodyless soul in Mandos halls, so he could be summoned and fused with someone through foul witchcraft, and i could see Sauron as a Maiar have the knowledge and enough powerfull henchmen to pull something like this off.
It's definitely a vision and metaphor thing, but what I mean there is no real world red eye flying over Barad-dur, that everyone can see. Sauron also had his physical form back during LotR. But ofc is is mentioned in the books to some degree.
yes, they actually never said it was an eye on top of the tower, but it was represented as such, and it was related to the ring, as If the ring itself was the eye of Sauron. Still, I don't think Sauron had a form, it was an evil force, a shadow
Yes that is a good way of putting it. Agreed he was like a shadow, that is over Middle-earth, but there are some hints of him having a physical form or let's say they could be interpreted that way. However if you look at how Tolkien depicted Sauron in a sketch he is definitely like a shadow. tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:J.R.R._Tolkien_-_Sauron.jpg
all reference to his eye, to his hand, etc, are most likely a metaphor, but in case he had a physical form he would have been like a crippled being, a mere shadow of what he was when he had the ring. Nevertheless he had the power to brainwash and manipulate, and influence people who had darkness in their hearts, not only with his ring, but with something else. Probably with the other rings of power he had, the nazgul maybe, he was able to manifest through them or something, i guess we will never know
These games are just made by folks with just enough knowledge to say Hey this would be cool... but not enough to realize how ridiculous some of it hell most of it really is
Always nice to share the passion and discuss the lore with fellow Tolkien fans. It's so nice that it connects so many different people. Much appreciated!
I feel that celebrimbor in the helm Hammerhand cutscene was kind of like a metaphor or something like that because when celebrimbor created the rings he put part of his life essence in them (kind of like Sauron and the one ring) and when they showed celebrimbor they were kind of implying that the rings were part of celebrimbor implying that celebrimbor was there somewhat. so in conclusion, celebrimbor was somewhat there in the form of his rings. (I’m probably far off but you get what I’m saying.). :)
yall can say or feel how you want i understand, personally i understand there are heavy revisions and changes here but i accept them over the original source material even its straight up gold. Better then the movies even IMO but i wouldnt blame anyone for feeling any different of course
I know that Shadow of Mordor/War are different from the books like the movies are. But let's all agree that the movies and Shadow of Mordor/War is more closer to the books than the Rings of Power will even be.
Possible, but hard to say. I would say Shadow of War at least also consists of a ton of fanfiction as well. Whole premise with Celebrimbor as revenge seeking spirit that remained on Middle-earth is imo contradicting the books and Tolkien#s ideas massively. There is ofc a lot of correct lore and nice references, but it also very often takes a lot of freedoms. To compare it to Rings of Power I would need to see the show first.
@@ThePhilosophersGames Shelob doesn't scare me, but the environmental spiders do. Their sound design is so...skittery, and they move in a way that makes them deliberately hard to keep track of
Thanks for explaining the minis ithil business. I was confused because everything I read says this game took place after the hobbit but I know minis ithil fell a while ago.
some of the lore changes killed a book fan like me. I could not take it. it was like if sauron forced me to wear one of the nine rings of men and become a nazgul.
When SoM was released I had trouble with it too, but I also somehow liked the game. So I see it more as some kind of alternate universe story. I think it gives people, who are not into the books an opportunity to learn a bit more about the lore, even though the story does no fit so well. But many of the descriptions of items you can find, etc give more information about Tolkien's universe than other media (except the books ofc) and allow the players to dive deeper into it. But ofc I can totally understand you. It does not fit the tone of the books, nor the story and lore or the topics of the books quite well and can be tough for a book fan.
it is a fun game to play and I enjoyed it a lot. I did finish it minus the true ending but constant sieges just for that ain't what I call a good time. the lore let me down but at least most of the Tolkien characters were still themselves. sauron, the nazgul and such were still themselves. but you know what I could accept this game as a more darker alternate universe of Tolkien's world. I wonder where the series will go next maybe middle earth: morgoth's shadow. or maybe the fourth age.final thoughts to say is it still kept to the lore of the universe is based in in than a lot of other games do.
I think it would make sense that Talion would be given a pass into the afterlife if you looked at his story, i mean he was cursed and only wanted vengeance for the death of his family and also wanted to die in peace with them, he had a tragic life so i think he deserve a place in the afterlife even if he did join the Nazgul, unwillingly though.
Yes someone asked about that in the comments here too. I would say you could argue both ways. I copy a part of my answer. There is the story of Gorlim, who fought with Barahir against Morgoth, but he got captured and tortured. Sauron suggested a a deal, that if he tells him where Barahir hides, he will be reunited with his wife. So Gorlim told Sauron. And Sauron explained, that his wife is dead and killed him too. He became a restless spirit too (Gorlim tried to warn Barahir's son though). So even with Gorlim fighting Morgoth and Sauron his whole life, enduring torture, this one time "screwed" him. Same could be said about Talion. Also he could have just left the world several times, but decided against it. Revenge is not a noble motivation either, even though stopping and opposing Sauron is maybe something different. But he could have just died, without becoming a Nazgûl many other people who die, don't get that option and Talion was already dead anyway. But yes he was making a big sacrifice to fight Sauron, so you can also argue in the other direction, agreed.
I just assumed that Eru made an exception for Talion since in the game he is the only thing holding Sauron back for decades, without him in this version middle earth would've been overrun. Perhaps Eru recognised that aswell as the great sacrifices Talion made and showed Mercy on him, it's a stretch for sure but it's interesting to think about
A very well made video that fairly takes a look at things from the game, and how they contrast (one way or another) with he original world. I for one like Shadow of War for what it is; a game inspired by the world of Tolkien, but doesn't claim to do everything by the book. I really don't see the point in some people just complaining about the game - it doesn't take the original world away, and it doesn't claim to set new canon of Tolkien's world any more than, say; the the Lord of the Rings-The Hobbit movies. I'm a huge fan of Tolkien's world, but I'm not the kind of puritan who can't be open minded about works like this: I just take them like I would any work like this (no matter what IP), and see if I personally find them enjoyable.
Thank you :) This time I tried to work out a bit better, the positive things the game does, when it comes to some lore references (compared to my Shadow of Mordor and Tolkien's Lore video, where I focused more on the differences, which made it sound quite negative). I think a problem for many Tolkien fans is partially the marketing, which claimed, that it would fit perfectly into the books, which is no fully true. However the games let people, who are not so deep into the lore, explore it far more, than most games or even the movies. I can appreciate the games for this. They also put some effort into some parts, e.g. a story explanation for respawning, etc.
Lore breaks aside I actually find SoW's depiction of Shelob far more impressive and tolkien-like than the way she was portrayed in the movies, aka just a giant spider. So I mean that's something
That's nice to hear :) I put a lot of time into researching pronunciations or deciding on one, when it's not 100% clear. It also makes recording more difficult, because I often have to re-read paragraphs, when I'm not happy with the pronunciation or make mistakes (happens a lot).
One thing there is with the Barrows. as far as i remember, he never specifically says it is elves buried there, so it is possible that "his greatest warriors" buried there are exclusively Uruk. As for getting them built, the towers in Shadow of Mordor were also built by Uruk, so they aren't lacking in craftsmanship, especially under Celebrimbor's guidance. as for the giant soldier elf statues, i chalk that up to Celebrimbor simply having carved what he knows.
Yes that would make some sense, but wouldn't it be strange, that he builds barrows for Orcs? I red somewhere in my comment section, that this scene and parts of the story were planned differently, but the devs had to change some parts of it (maybe because Middle-earth Enterprises, who have the movie rights for The Hobbit and LotR, but are not the Tolkien family, disliked their ideas) and this is so to say a left over, which is why it feels a bit off. I think it's really strange.
I really love your video's man, but a question: I know elfes can deny the summon of Mandos, but can menkind also? I never really thought about it, but denying it means staying on Arda. I always thought they had to move on, having no choice in the matter.
Thank you :) It's hard to say. Men can be "banished" and stay on Arda as spirit like Gorlim, maybe it was also partially his decision, because he tried to warn Beren, but it was too late. I would argue, that they were able to deny the summon too, so they have a choice and aren't forced, but as with elves it would be pretty much unheard of.
haha yes I remember making this video when the game came out. To this day I have no idea how I made it this fast and it even turned out to be a decent video.
haha :D Good to hear, so the effort was worth it. I know some people, who suffer from arachnophobia and it's quite common in the west, so I thought it was a good idea.
Isn't one of the best ways to overcome arachnophobia to slowly introduce spiders into your world? Like pictures of them at first, all the way up to the point you can hold a tarantula in your hand. By all means put a spider warning in your videos, it doesn't detract from their quality at all. I just want to give some friendly advice that pictures are a good place to start when confronting a phobia. I used to be terrified of heights, so I started watching free climbing videos. As a result, when a tree fell on our house earlier this year and we had no other options but to repair the house ourselves, I was able to get on the roof and shingle as well as climb ladders to put up siding. It's a huge burden off my shoulders to know that when shit hits the fan that I won't be crippled by my fear. This has probably been too much for this simple youtube thread, but I just thought I'd share it because I was wondering why there was a spider warning.
Yeah, exposure is important for overcoming phobias but it's something that should be done in a controlled environment, usually along with cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). That actually has a success rate at around 85%-90%. However, many "cured" patients re-develop their phobias after a while - especially if they're very specific and pertains to something they don't get exposed to naturally in their daily lives. But you're right in that exposure is important, for sure, but even when it's not done in CBT you have to *willingly* expose yourself, otherwise it's just gonna be a chock which could send you straight into a panic attack. So I would argue that the "Spider Warning" is a good thing for both groups - and like you said, it's not like a tiny warning is inconveniencing those who don't have phobias :) Also I have to say I enjoy talking to someone on YT in a civil manner for a change :D So kudos for not being a dick about it :P
Right on, I can get on board with what you're saying, and I didn't know that many patients re-develop their phobias. Makes sense, I know I definitely still don't like heights, it's just the panic is easier to fight back. Yeah I was just curious about why there was a spider warning, and wether a picture of a spider could trigger the fear response as well. Now I know. No problem dude, and thank you for being civil as well.
Great video! Very informative. I was thinking perhaps in the fight between Celebrimbor and Sauron, we see Sauron in his fair form because of a perception related flashback through the perspective of Celebrimbor.
Yes, the "r"s are rolled, and I have travelled around the world hearing other languages like Spanish that rolls its "r"s. However, some online narrators/explainers roll the "r" for TOO LONG, so it sounds like a lawnmower motor unsuccessfully trying to start up over and over. You should say "m-ah-n-d-o-s" and "m-oh-r-d-oh-r", not "mandoTH" and moRRRRRRdoRRRRRR".
I'm from Germany, but from a region, where rolling the "r" is not typical at all (e.g it's more typical in south Germany). At the start I try to roll them shorter, but after a time it's more convenient to do it longer. It's also easier with "Sauron" than with Mordor. Mandos is /ˈmandos/. I form an /s/ at the end not a /θ/. But I sometimes mess up. Speaking regular english (which isalso not my native language) in between, gives me some problems. Saying the word alone is one thing, saying it in the middle of a sentence I find it quite difficult after a while or let's say, I tend to get sloppy. But thanks for the feedback :)
Fell out of love with the LOTR/Tolkein universe, or just stopped caring, But these videos have dragged me back in, incredibly well put together pal. Listen to these on the way to work/ when I'm just chilling I have them on in the background Got a sub from me
Thank you! Oh that's a compliment :) I think Lord of the Rings has this kind of magic to it, that can really draw you into the world. Ofc it's not working for everyone, but it's so rich when it comes to details.
I'm pretty curious, what they do after Shadow of War. I could imagine, that it will be something new, or they will find another scene in the lore and build something around it. When they still work with Middle-earth Enterprises, there will be for sure differences, which also means for me, that I can make videos, so I wouldn't complain either way :P
Yes that works too. The idea of comparing it to a god pantheon came from, that there are Valar with different tasks and abilities. Like Aulë - Smithing; Yavanna - Nature; Varda - Stars and Light; Mandos - Death and Fate/Doom; etc So I thought it makes sense too and Tolkien was probably inspired by ancient mythologies (Norse, Greek, etc.) Thank you :)
I treat the game as a fanfiction, a very, very good and detailed fanfiction, they're as equally as good as any fanfiction i've read :) I think what i love about the World of Middle-earth is that, while it is incredibly rich with lore and story, it also leave some gap and holes here and there for reader, writer, artist, and gamer alike to fill it in their own way. I have my own "Head canon" that make me happy, it's the one that Maeglin escaped the city of Gondolin alive, and go live with some human tribes, doing what he love, forging and stuff. and i made that solely because i like him, absolutely nothing more. That make me happy. Some people find some event relatable to their own experience, and adapt it to their own imagination. I'm an artist myself, and have drawn my favorite Tolkien character in a way that i like to see, what if Legolas have dark hair? What if warg as a puppy? what if i twist the ending a bit and Boromir didn't die? what if Frodo met Olorin, the true form of Gandalf, in Valinor? I want to draw them reading together, smoking pipe and showing other Ainur how firework look like. It's just that so many people color down their own Middle-Earth in their own way. And this game is a really well-written "Head canon" too/
I can totally understand that. I often thought too about what if the story was a bit different at this point or what could happen if I chane up some things. I would even argue, hat this is very human to do, because we want to develop what we know and what we have learned further. So I agree SoM and SoW is good fan fiction ^^
I've been thinking about this thing of Zog the necromancer orc. I think he didn't exactly revive the balrog, or at least when I played it last week, I interpreted he just gave him the last push he needed to wake up. He didn't control it, but he sure as hell thought he could, which doesn't mean he did. And his necromancy thing isn't exactly bringing people back to life, and is more so puppetting orcs bodies much like Talion does later(the orcs he brings back cannot speak and can only fight, their mind is still gone, it's just the body that moves by itself). The only orc who seemingly does come back to life is Zog himself during the game. But I don't think he actually comes back to life, it's more of a bluff and he never truly died. Maybe you don't know but in free roaming you can randomly find Zog again and he tells us we can't kill him, which is true to some extent. When we kill him in free roaming, he can **always** come back, unless you cut his head off. So it's not really an exception and more so a very hard Uruk to kill which has unknown weird stuff that will keep him together (Also for the Nazguls, I believe I've read that Shadow of war's reasoning is that the Nazguls we see in shadow of war are not necessarily the first nine and Sauron doesn't care who are the nazguls as long as he has 9 nazguls. In the game Isildur dies and Talion replaced him. The game's logic is apparently that this wasn't the first time this happened but Sauron sneakily replaced the missing Nazgul everytime and no one noticed)
No problem ^^ Yes I think that is one of my "unique" traits for this channel. I wanted to reply to your comment, but had not found the time yet, but I red it already. Writing long answers can be time consuming and I'm currently a bit stuck working on my next video. (also in some cases I simply forget to answer). In a way I'm inspired by Tolkien here, who also often answered in detailed letters to fan letters he got. So the least I can do is answer my comment section. In addition I think it helps making it a more positive place, because people know the creator might read this. (I only have trouble seeing comments buried in old threads of comments, because I can only sort by new stand alone comments independent of when a video was uploaded).
After beating this game, I feel this games story is perfect for someone who has ZERO knowledge of the source material outside the movies. However once you learn at least ONE fact that they changed, the whole thing kind of falls apart. I went from feeling the story was serviceable, to simply not caring. I saw someone compare this to Star Wars Force Unleashed, but there are some differences with that. First off, Forced Unleashed was a better game so let's not go their. Second off, unlike this game, the Star Wars games at least had SOME form of cannoicity before Disney hit the reset button. I know Tolkeins son hates the movies cause of how they simplified the story. But I feel he would have a heart attack if he saw what they did with this game.
I think it is respectful for SOW to bend lore a bit as it doesn’t lower story quality too much especially since it only plays with smaller more untouched things like the identity of the Nazgûl
Yes some find them annoying, but that's about how they are pronounced. Sometimes I mess up. esp. the stress. Sounds better when Tolkien reads Quenya: ua-cam.com/video/6de_SbVUVfA/v-deo.html
I'm pretty much aware about the pronunciations, but you sir, you were perfect. especially when you mention CELEBRIMBOR. :D Keeleeybrimbor. Wonderful video great job.
Thank you ^^ That word often gives me trouble trilling a bit shorter (I often try to trill shorter, so it sounds not like a overemphasis on it). Happy you liked it :)
For Celebrimbor's rebellion and the timeline, I'd say it is one of the points were they took bigger liberties in order to have the plot they wanted. In the game, Celebrimbor is not in Eregion. Instead Sauron takes him to mount Doom in order to put the finishing touches on the One Ring. Then he steals the ring, forms a rebellion by mind-controlling a bunch of orks, but then the ring betrays him and he gets captured by Sauron, who then executes his family and him. This all happens within Mordor, and it takes quite a bit of time, as it is implied that he was the one who built all the towers you have to climb in SoM. By the same note, it is also implied that he built the original fortress that later became Minas Ithil, as he says that Sauron was using "his towers" to put the Haedir stones. If we consider that, it is possible he built the Barrows underneath at the same time, in preparation, even though there were no elves fighting on his side at the time. Speaking of Haedir stones, I was under the impression that they weren't working the same way as the Palantír. Instead they were practically windows through which Sauron could observe the world as if he was looking through a Palantír, but for them to work, they had to be placed close to the action, so to speak. It's because of this limitation that Sauron really wanted the Palantír in the tower. Furthermore, it is also likely that Sauron must have had something like a fake Palantír, or maybe a damaged one that needed the Haedir stones to fulfill its function but could still influence the people who were trying to use the other Palantírs.
Yes exactly, that is how I originally understood his movement in the game too. But the implication that he got some elves and went to Mordor, building barrow for them, threw me off a bit. Someone here noted, that they originally planned it a bit differently, but then things changed during development and said screw it, now he has barrows in Minas Ithil. I would not have a problem with the Haedir towers, but after Sauron receives the Minas Ithil Palantír, Celebrimbor mentions, that they extend the range, which makes not sense (book) lore wise. Thank you for commenting :)
![The Complete History of the Rings of Power [COMPILATION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rsCaXGvMypM/mqdefault.jpg)
Update: my gaming content will be on my 2nd channel: ua-cam.com/users/TPhGames
(at least some LotR related gaming videos will still be posted here on the main channel though)
It took some time, but finally it’s done: a very in-detail Lore Comparison between Shadow of War and Tolkien’s books. My intention is just explaining interested people the differences. This time I also tried to explore the references in the game and the idea or origin of some of the changes. I forgot a few things and probably missed some stuff. There are even parts I don’t fully understand, like Celebrimbor’s movement after he escapes from Sauron in Mordor. The start of teh video is a long explanation about life and death in the lore, maybe skip to 6:43 min.
I hope you like it :)
Maybe check my Shadow of Mordor lore comparison too.
PS: There are as always some mistakes. I will list them here and in the description.
ThePhilosophersGames i actually thought Talion would be granted an afterlife because of his sacrifice for middle earth. His sanity being his final sacrifice, do you think him being forced into doing evil would void that or no?
There is the story of Gorlim, who fought with Barahir against Morgoth, but he got captured and tortured. Sauron suggested a a deal, that if he tells him where Barahir hides, he will be reunited with his wife. So Gorlim told Sauron. And Sauron explained, that his wife is dead and killed him too. He became a restless spirit too (Gorlim tried to warn Barahir's son though). So even with Gorlim fighting Morgoth and Sauron his whole life, enduring torture, this one time "screwed" him. Same could be said about Talion. He could have just died. The situation was forced by his deeds prior to that and the Nazgûl did many terrible things.
I would say, maybe there is a chance for Talion to find peace in his afterlife, but you could at least also argue against it.
no problem :) hope you liked it ^^ That also means, that I did something right with my video tags :P
Question, is there anything that breaks the games from being in the movies? as a kind of Movieverse?
Could the difference however be that Gorlim told where Barahir's hideout was out of his own free will, although under pressure, where as Talion was literally being mind controlled when he ran out of strength to resist the ring after decades of using it to fight against Sauron?
Also, I was under the impression that Talion would end up in Valinor. Because he became a ring bearer out of necessity. His intentions are good while his actions were questionable. But like frodo and Bilbo, who held the one ring without actually wanting it. He held a power ring by accident, he also managed to release isildur. So I think the Valar would be bros about it and let his broken spirit rest at valinor before his true death
John Matrix why don’t you just look at it as a spin on Tolkien’s story. Tolkien liked people making deferent adaptations of his work.
@John Matrix as the guy below me said. Tolkien actually liked people making interpretations of his world. So relax, not everyone is a turbo nerd who thinks the books are holy gospel.
I don't think Talion got to go to Valinor. The spirits of men are bound for a different fate then Elves; Frodo and Bilbo only got to go west to live out the rest of their days in the only place they could feel relief from the burden they had to bear. They too would have died eventually and then their spirits would move on. Seeing as Talion died at the end of the game I think his spirit went on to where the spirits of men go and depending on what that is he probably would have been reunited with his family.
SPOILER WARNING: In the game's final ending, Talion is released from darkness. He is, according to the game, the ring wraith (in the Return of the King) that was hit by a flaming boulder after the one ring was destroyed.
At the end of the game, he is seen walking towards the light of day, welcomed into the halls of Mandos.
This is where the game ties in pretty decently with the lore of Tolkien. In the halls of Mandos, Talion will be reunited with his wife and son, and together, all three will leave Arda, and enter the halls of Eru Illuvatar. This is the gift of men, the ability to have a fate separate of that from Arda.
A good ending, if there ever was one.
@John Matrix the game actually did a really good job of staying within the realm of Tolkien's lore, and I'm quite sure Tolkien would have approved of this addition to his creation.
This game has added new content to the Tolkien universe that fits nicely into the story we learn of in the time surrounding Bilbo and Frodo, the fellowship of the ring, and much of the third age of middle earth. The game's lore does much to fill in the blanks, and with creative flourish, tell us more of what is going on in Mordor, and why Sauron was held back so effectively.
Don't cling to old things and refuse change. Tolkien never did. Doing so is the path towards darkness.
I don’t think Celebrimbor revived Talion. I believe he more so held Talion together.
So what you're saying is, Calebrimbor is like the super suit in the game Crysis!
Thematically I think talon’s story is very Tolkien like even if it doesn’t work with the mythos. Tolkien out right stated that if any tried to beat the dark lord at his own game he would sit own the dark throne and become a new dark lord.
Talon’s gift of mercy for isildor is also very thematically appropriate.
That is to say the lore and facts of SoW don’t line up with the TLOTRs but the themes do very much.
Warner bros owns the rights to lord of the rings movies tv shows and games as of 2021 so the shadow games are cannon
@@dunfu7355 no it doesn't. They own the distribution rights to the movies. They can't change written lore and scripture when they want. Unless Tolkien wrote the story then it ain't canon
@@tramainecanty5846 i no that and ur right but i want u to no that cuz of whats going on lord of the rings and the hobbit will not ever be as big as star wars or harry potter cuz "fans" dont want to add to the universe of middle earth and also the hobbit rights are with amazon they got the full movie rights to anything hobbit so whatever they put out is there own cannon
@@dunfu7355No, Amazon only has tv rights of lord of the rings, they don't even have rights to the Silmarillion. Also, the world of Harry Potter has ended long ago, even the author has been writing a completely different series for the past decade and Harry Potter is probably likely to not return except for games and movies and don't get me started on Star Wars, that franchise is dying and losing many fans day by day. And I don't think you understand what canon means and the rights to LOTR is more complex than you think. I am quite glad that LOTR ended early and isn't just being milked for money with no end in sight. All good things must come to an end or else they were never good to begin with.
@@tramainecanty5846the movies change the lore too and aren’t considered canon so I guess you could say the Shadow of Mordor games are canon to the movies.
I love what these games did with the orcs! They have personality, relations, rivalries and ambitions of their own. I love it and choose to believe how the orcs are portrayed in the game are how they are in LOTR
Despite all of the screwy lore, I think the characterization of the orcs is going to be cemented into Tolkein fanon for quite some time. Even if only for lack of alternatives. Which is probably the best part of the game, so I'm glad that'll be it's legacy.
I'm definitely expecting it to become common practice for tie-in materials to casually mention that an orc is of the Terror or Feral tribe.
To make the sting of fake lore a lot more bearable, I imagine SOW and SOM as alternate realities or what if scenarios for Tolkiens universe
Yes, I know what you mean. I see it quite similar. But I like what they do in these collectable item descriptions. Some nice references there considering, that they don't have access to the Silmarillion.
@sakor88 idk man playing in a similar to LOTR world as a ringwraith was pretty badass and fun regardless of lore imo
@sakor88 i mean the game world of shadow of war. Not canonical lotr but similar enough to suspend disbelief
@sakor88 they are some fun ass games. Even being the blatant cash grabs that they are. I would even argue that the lore changes suit the gameplay. I guess you don't feel the same way. Either you're a pessimist or feel slighted by this game somehow. Either way, cheer up buttercup, it ain't so bad.
@sakor88 okay so you feel slighted about the game. This is a vid and convo about the lore. Did they lie about the lore? They didn't and never presented it as pure cannon.
So like I said before. Cheer up buttercup and enjoy something for once.
Even after 50 minutes of Lore Breaks, the one that they 100% should have still done was have Talion walk into the light. It was such an emotional scene especially with Fires of War in the background.
It was a fantastic scene. Throwing the weapons and armor down, finally done fighting. Beautiful.
@@spyguy888 And the flower growing next to the dagger...
So in short:
You better of looking at the story as a realy fun fanfic.
That's what I do anyway.
haha yes
I look at the story as in The Force Unleashed. It's fun but takes BIG liberaties with the source matereal.
It' wasn't as fanficcy there as in here but what ever.
Yes Force Unleashed is a good comparison. Funnily as a lore fan, I had also huge problems with this game at first, same with SoM, but at some point I accepted it as a very fun game ^^
You could look at it as a legend within the actual universe.
@@ThePhilosophersGames as a bit more of a Star Wars fan: TFU doesn't break the Star Wars lore. Even the power levels presented aren't really unpresidented in the EU (which is the continuity TFU belongs to).
You could excuse Talion going to the Afterlife when the Ring was destroyed by saying that he did not seek the Ring for Revenge or personal gain, he took it knowing full and well that it would be his demise and accepted the consequences that came with it. Then he used it to fight against the Evil of Sauron as a kind of warden untill the Ring overpowered his will, this sacrifice might have been what would cause Eru or Mandos to make an exception for him since he wasn't corrupted into taking the Ring out of Greed.
Same as how Bilbo and Frodo were able to resist the ring for longer because they did not take it out of desire.
That is a good argument. I would say you can argue in both directions. He knew, that he would do terrible things at one point (when the transformation was complete) and accepted this. It's a very extreme case and I think the main problem is that he is a human/men. This rejecting the gift of men thing.
Also there is the story about Gorlim, who became a wraith (pretty much the only known, that is not tied to rings). he fought Morgoth in the First Age and got captured by Sauron and tortured and "pressured" (not sure if black mail would be the right word), because Sauron seemed to have his wife too . In this extreme he just told Sauron where his Lord Barahir hides. He screwed up once, but became a wraith. When it comes to elves, it seems to be more generous, if we look at Celebrimbot's grandfather, who literally murdered his own people (to steal their ships), to get his revenge on Morgoth.
Ofc I whish Talion to find peace :D But lore wise it's at least debatable.
@@ThePhilosophersGames okay, I thought he ended I Valinor, because he was a ring bearer lol?
@@ThePhilosophersGames i fully accept this arguement
But at this point its literally a court case exept with gods
Mann... Talion must be still signing papers that the ring waslike
Contract for talion to keep in
"Stasis" for what 60 years
I mean for a god it must be a moment he was like
Eru:U died go to heaven
Talion:w-wait moment
Talion:ok now we can go
@@ThePhilosophersGames I Believe, Talion is not dead. How Carnan said: "Not Lifless, but deathless"
Celebrimbor could have been denied the right to go to Afterlife, cos he sided with Sauron one point in time (According to the game). It doesn't explaine his powers, but still...
Maybe, he's something like ringwraiths, cos he's somehow "connected" to them, cos he created them, like Sauron created The One Ring and couldn't be killed without destroying the ring... Cos the whole game narative is around Duality (Celebrimbor/Sauron, Galadriel/Shelob, Dominate to protect/to control and etc)
It's nice to see a tolkein lore buff not hating the games
Thank you :)
Ofc there are huge differences (and I wished it would be closer to the original), but there are also some interesting references (which I appreciate), so I tried to explain both, which probably helped, that it did not sound as negative as my Shadow of Mordor video, where I focused only on the differences (I still like Shadow of Mordor).
I love the books read em all but i love the games in my head canon there connected
I like to think of Talion as a myth men in LOTR spread to one another. It would explain any inconsistencies with the lore.
“Talion the Gravewalker, the man who enthralled the Uruk-hai to his own ranks!”
"The dark lord will be brought to its knees by a dead man a gravewalker
And a wraith leading an ork army"
It must feel unreal
Celebrimbor doesn't need to go to the halls of Mandos to have a life again or regain his power. Some Elves refused the summons of Mandos and became the Houseless spirits. These Elves had to forcefully take new bodies to return to life which is similar to what Celebrimbor did. Not to mention the Black Numenoreans had conducted a necromantic ritual to bind the spirit of Celebrimbor to Sauron but he instead was bound to Talion's body as Talion was dying. Being that in the game Celebrimbor had helped make the one ring and was bound to it I don't think it would be far off to venture the guess that Celebrimbor is like Sauron at this time. A shadow of his former self bound to the one ring caught between life and death as a Nazgul would be and the fact that he obtains a body much like a houseless spirit would allow him to once again obtain the power he had in life. It's also important to note that the Nazgul have no original power over death or other sorceries either. They receive their powers of sorcery/necromancy from Sauron, so one could assume that the shared bond between Celebrimbor, Sauron, and the One Ring also allows Celebrimbor access to similar powers of sorcery. The only thing I think is off is when Talion puts on Isildurs ring and he basically becomes a Nazgul (or at least gets their powers) almost immediately. Gollum had the One Ring for hundreds of years and even he hadn't fully transitioned into the wraith world yet and Talion wasn't stabbed by any morgul blade either to quicken the process. So I think given the lore Talion would have died after Celebrimbor left and he put on Isildur's ring. I don't think that would have saved him. Just my two cents lol
Honestly, I am quite glad to meet a person who doesn’t see this game as “MURDER OF ORIGINAL CANON!” and just enjoys for what it is. Great video btw. It is interesting to see many references that were put into this game which I missed or didn’t understood.
Just a question, have you played any of the dlcs for that game? It is quite fun (desolation of Mordor is slightly unfair though) and BoG one has the best orcs is the game. If you played them, what is your opinion on them.
Side question, if Monolith will creat a sequel to SoW (which is quite possible) how would you envision it? Is it even possible for the Orc army to rise even without Sauron? And if it can, who will lead it? A human or an Orc?
Thank you :) As a huge Tolkien fan it took a while to "accept" SoM, but I liked it game wise and it also had many correct lore references. Just the main plot is not as "book friendly" as the marketing said it would be. Still I enjoyed both games. And it also was a reason to make two interesting videos and why my channel got quite popular (the SoM lore comparison, which also sounds a bit more negative was my first little breakthrough on YT). So I also ow the game series. But as said: beyond lore, i think they were pretty interesting and fun games, even when i was more sceptical.
I did not play the DLCs, but checked BoG's story and thought about making a video, but it took a lot of freedom lore wise, that I decided to not make another lore comparison. But it looked like the new ideas for orcs, etc looked really fun.
The games put their finger on an interesting aspect: domination. It's unrelastic, that an "evil" Elf could get that level of domination, but originally Morgoth's and then later Sauron's influence on the orcs (throgh their powerful evil will) is a key ingredient on the Orcs existence (at least most orcs I would say). When Morgoth was defeated, orcs lost order and purpose and started to kill each other in great confusion. So you would need somebody powerful enough to control them. I think the time span between LotR and SoW has become too small, so make a sequel, but Mordor became Sauron's realm in Second Age 1000, so I would say a Shadow of Mordor game playing in that time would be interesting. The question would be: who is the Shadow? ^^
Or maybe later, when Sauron was not there (fled into the far East) and only his servants were active. Gondor controlled parts of Mordor for quite some time from the beginning of the Third Age to the time of the kin-strife in Gondor (Third Age 1447) and Great Plague Third Age 1637. So that would be possible too.
ThePhilosophersGames I really hope that if the sequel happens, this time we will play as an Orc, simply because I like the idea of being a low-some grunt in Mordor and then slowly growing to a legendary warrior with his own campaign (and that sounds honestly more lore friendly than the SoW). I mean, Tolkien wanted to develop Orcs a bit more, but he never managed to, and I believe games got that spect right: to create a development for orcs which they lacked in original material. They actually seems like an individuals with twisted out-view of the world. (Like, this game stated that Orcs were capable of cultural activity, which is proven ingame with existence of Bards, Historians, Scribes etc. or that their society is build up in power struggle etc.)
It actually would be fun if we played as either an original breed of Orc or special breed and slowly became either a legendary Sauron’s servant, or maybe something that Sauron desperately wants out of his way (like an Orc who rebels against Sauron’s will due to being loyal to Morgoth or seeing Sauron as weak individual). Or, it can take venue bolder move and base a game after a fall of Sauron with main character trying to creat Order within now leaderless Orc society. But that is unlikely, since, well, WB won’t see post book/movie middle earth as something interesting.
Yes that's sound cool too and would fit the SoM/SoW style games.
I could also imagine like a game (even though that would be a very different one), where you have to manage Mordor and slowly build up armies, equipment and supplies (I like tycoon games ^^). You could maybe play this from the perspective of an orc commander in the SoM/SoW style and follow a story too (where building armies for Sauron and equipment influences the game too). I think there is a lot of potential.
Gameplay wise, I enjoy it, no denying in that. Buuuuut its still lore rape, warner bros took a deep stinkin shittter on Tolkien's work! Again, I like gameplay and I still play it. Like others said here, I look it in a certain view to make it bearable.
Also, why can't people see it like what you said tho? Have you read the books? Read them and come back, I guarantee you'll change your opinion unless you lack reading comprehension and analysis skill. Also if it wern't for the gameplay and warner bros, this would've been shambles from getgo.
Fun fact, ima be namin me future son Celebrimbor 💪😁
Well now since warner bros owns the rights to lord of the rings movies games and tv shows this means the shadow games are part of the cannon
The necromancer, Zog, seemingly just gave Tar Goroth that little extra push as he was already waking up. And he wasn't able to control it
Okay so I've been thinking about the Isildur thing and I have some thoughts on it.
First of all we need to acknowledge the game dev economic realities: They already had Gondorian soldier sprites in the game from the prologue before Minas Ithil falls, and it's a lot easier and cheaper to reskin those into ghosts for the player to summon in the post-game than to make some kind of brand new wraith minions for you to summon, so of course they want to tie that into the story somehow.
All that said, let's talk about Isildur.
So even within the frame, the histories of middle-earth are just that, histories. They are the best estimation of events based on the probably often conflicting reports of the many eyewitnesses. But we do know pretty conclusively that Isildur's body was never found, I imagine that detail would be pretty consistent. But the poison used on the arrows is probably just the best guess of the historian, who may be embellishing to highlight the dangers presented by the orcs even after Sauron's fall. It's easy to assume that the party of orcs sent to capture Isildur was armed with a powerful paralysis poison: one that might appear as death on the battlefield. And it's also easy to imagine that the orcs brought the paralyzed body of Isildur to Barad-Dur and there gave him a ring of power (perhaps recovered from the least of the nine, who perhaps fell in the great battle while the attention of men and elves were on the deaths of their high kings?) before he was able to slip into death, and breaking him in the tower so he became a Ringwraith much faster than the other eight. It could actually work without violation of canon at all I think.
The body of Isildur is found by Saruman as Aragorn and friends later find out in Orthanc after the war. The problem is there are a lot of assumptions. Paralysing poison (never mentioned anywhere), etc. But that is not how Isldur died. The orcs saw his brow glowing red due to using the one Ring and thought he was some kind of monster when he came out of the water in the darkness (orcs have some night vision) and shot in its direction and fled in terror. If they had his body, they would also have his possessions, like the One Ring (he still had it when he came out of the water). The whole idea of Tolkien is, that after this the One Ring falls out of history. Not even Sauron and his servants know where it is and this includes Isildur's remains including the Star of Elendil or Elendilmir, which Aragorn/King Elessar finds later in Orthanc.
Just beat SoW. Very fun game but clearly more of an exploration of the going-ons of the orks and Mordor itself. Though the game is a bit “cartoonish” in its depiction of what are mindless murder monsters. Still, I don’t often go for 100% completion in a game but this is definitely one I will be doing that for. Shame about the pay to win stuff crippling it on release. Hopefully WB throws us another. I’d love to see a return of Conquest but set before the War of the Ring. Perhaps LOTR Conquest: The Last Alliance?
The thing about the orcs is that their personalities kind of needed to be a little bit cartoonish. It reduces the chance that the orcs you've interacted with most will begin to blend together in your head
I think the core thematic idea behind the New Ring was that incredible power doesn't need dark forces behind it to corrupt. It can do a perfectly good job of that by itself.
It's a mess lore-wise, but I appreciate that about it. It's also a decent elaboration on the idea of Sauron's character, that even if it may stem from good intentions, seeking power above all else is a road to evil
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
No one is immune for this, not even the pure perfect elves, and I love that. It was a deep sense of complexity that is wholly absent form the books.
I appreciate the effort you took to explain these. I think most of us agree that the lore does not really fit the canon but you do admit plausibility/possibility where it can exist. Most others I've heard just say what is wrong with everything and that the changes were impossible but don't make the additional step of seeing if it could work. (We know it can't - developers know it can't but still some of us can try.)
In my SoM lore comparison video I also only focused on what is not possible, but getting some feedback and seeing the discussion in the comments I decided to also include what is possible and some references. So thank you :) Nice that you like the change ^^
First, I'm pretty sure the idea is that Talion isn't dead he's just dy-ing and celebrimbor's spirit and then the ring for keeping his body intact and making him "banished from death" as the game puts it.
Second, I'd say the ending cutscene is him being forced to wander Middle Earth forever like you said but he sees that as Paradise compared the constant War he's been through for years at this point.
All in all though good video!
that was a great summary. I think they were a bit clueless about Tolkien's lore because it wasn't clearly a number 1 priority to stick to it, so they didn't try that hard to be consistent. Game was entertaining though.
Thank you :) Agreed game was fun ^^
To be fair you would have to treat the Silmarrion like a history text book with classes and tests. Ive read it twice and have great reading retention and would be hard pressed to create extra content and keep historical accuracy intact.
I just imagine the games as an alternate reality of Tolkien's universe where in the forging of the ring's celebrimbor was somehow bound to them somewhat like sauron is, And because of that (and his immense hate for sauron acting like an anchor keeping him in middle earth)it makes his fëa not able to move on to the halls of Mandos and grants abilities a normal wraith wouldn't have. Absolutely love tolkiens world, he truly is one of a kind, it blows my mind how many thousands of years of history that man wrote all out of pure imagination, and He took it so many steps further creating actual history not just some fairytale, He created multiple legitimate languages, he created a world so complete that it tells you how the very universe was created to how it would end. People in the future are going to find his books one day and think it was some historian from a alternate dimension
Interesting points, but I can't help but wonder. All the cases of Eru's interventions are all plot convient points. As much as Tolkien did not like using magic, he does use it to 'ensure' specific outcomes, such as the ring. As much that the game gets wrong, some parts could in theory, make sense. For example, the Nazghul reverting (and talion) back to human is almost entirely going to happen, because they had never died. They could not become powerless shadows because they never really died in the first place, which is why they couldn't go to Mandos or become a wraith/ghost, so I imagine that this implies that until Mount Doom's final explosion, they could not die. What I am curious about though is if Eru himself could be partly responsible for preventing Talion's ultimate demise, but if Eru did intervene for Talion, I can see Eru keeping him alive a bit longer after the fact. In a sense, Talion's use of Isildur's ring was a sacrificial move to delay Sauron before his will was bound and subjugated, and isn't quite something we can say is a damning move, if Eru is assumed to have intervened. When the Ring war ends, I could actually see this happening. We know Bilbo and Frodo were removed from Middle Earth because of the effects the ring had on them, and the same can be applied towards Talion. If this is a case of Eru's intervention where Talion was made to slow down the shadow, I don't see it in Eru's character to just toss a servant of his will to the wind, and Eru would know where that path would end. Perhaps it's not Talion in the after life in the true ending, but rather with his curse broken, Eru prevents his body's death and calls him to Valanor to finally have peace, and because he still suffers from possible effects of the Rings. A part of me has to wonder though. A lot of people say one thing or another about how a Maiar can't be surpassed, yet Sauron did take on students. It is the nature of craftsmen to teach students who refine their teacher's work. In this sense, I have to wonder whether or not celebrimbor actually could have become a very good ring maker, and surpassed Sauron. Sauron was not faultless, and I imagine the same can be of his rings. Perhaps not what happens in the actual lore, but I can see some parts of this such as Celebrimbor being able to replicate work or improve on it.
As far as Shelob, I also wonder this, but Ungoliant's power was rather extreme. If a Balrog is bad, Ungoliant is a nightmare. Even if she bred with lower spiders, her child being just a spider seems..off. It doesn't make sense. A favored form certainly, but I don't think shapeshifting is off the menu when shelob shared a much more literal dark webs. For context, she is literally turning shadows into physical manifestations that can bind people. I can only wonder then what else is not stated.
I concede here that a lot doesn't fit, but then a lot can be called arbitrary about things, such as Maiar. For example, Gandalf should 100 percent always surpass Sauron in power at all levels, especially backed up by others. That Sauron is somehow stronger without the ring and weakened, despite no actual attributable traits making him so is very arbitrary from a story standpoint. It's good for the writing, but consistency it's a small caveat. Ultimately, it's not a lore friendly game, but it isn't obscene either I think. In a way, it creates a somewhat more interesting world.
A side question, but One of the Valar, the one who amde the Dwarves, did not make life but animated stone which he called Dwarves until Eru gave them true life. What is the chance the Necromancer Zog wasn't qoute, using Necromancy, so much as a form of golemancy, aka, a magic that animates something, like say..a corpse?
That's a good theory. Some people here in the comments argued in a similar direction. I would say you can argue in both directions. For example if you look at Gorlim, who became a wraith.
I wrote about it in another answer:
There is the story of Gorlim, who fought with Barahir against Morgoth, but he got captured and tortured. Sauron suggested a a deal, that if he tells him where Barahir hides, he will be reunited with his wife. So Gorlim told Sauron. And Sauron explained, that his wife is dead and killed him too. He became a restless spirit too (Gorlim tried to warn Barahir's son though). So even with Gorlim fighting Morgoth and Sauron his whole life, enduring torture, this one time "screwed" him. Same could be said about Talion. (ofc there are some differences)
And if you argue with Eru, I would agree, that in this case Talion should find peace. Maybe in Valinor as you point out. But I think when it comes to the Nazgûl and the ring bearers, who made it to Valinor there is a major difference. The Ring bearers tried to avoid Sauron, but probably failed, but they made things no other could. Bilbo was able to give the One Ring away. What a deed. Frodo and Sam made it to Mount Doom. They failed in destroying the One Ring themselves, but were very close to success. But I definitely see you point.
I would argue, that Sauron did not took students, he took servants. he wanted to dominate the elves, but they didn't trust him. Gil-ggald and Elrond kicked him out. Galadriel wanted to, but had no power in Eregion. Saurom smartly did not come with already prepared artifacts, but taught them to forge their doom themselves, without them understanding his designs. Those rings were build to corrupt. But elves were to strong.
I agree though probably Celebrimbor could have made better rings of power, actually he did, with the 3 elven rings. But hec ould not wield his sprit like Sauron did and put it into a ring. So if the New Ring would be just a better version of a ring of power I would agree with you, but it's like a new One Ring, with a part of Celebrimbor in it. The Bright Lord with Ring/Dark Lord with Ring theme makes it clear too I guess.
I agree with Shelob, I just think it does not fit the tone of her nature or her description in the books. But That is just my opinion. She was definitely more than jut a giant spider. But: she was also a giant spider. The reason, why I said in the video that it is possible/plausible is, because that we have one other example.
We have a half Ainur in the First Age: Lúthien. Her Mother Melian was a powerful Maia and her father an elf. She could change her form maybe-ish. She Took the form of the mentioned Thuringwethil and flew to Angband, but she used her "bat-fell", so it was not like she could just change her form however she wanted. But I agree, her changing her form has plausibility.
Not sure if Gandalf could overpower Sauron (without the One Ring) so easily (but ofc with help that is true). He fought for days against the Balrog and he had a Ring of Power. Sauron also took his time to regain strength (centuries). Ofc he was not at his peak (esp. without the One Ring), but still very powerful. The concept of power is also quite complex. What does power mean? Sauron was powerful because of his armies, corruption, plans and many successes during the Third Age, that even the Istari could not prevent. But I understand your point.
That's an interesting idea. The dead could just be like marionettes. But i would still argue why an orc should wield power like this, when the Vala Aulë was operating at the limits of his power. But still i like this idea.
Thanks for commenting :) Good read.
Props to you Formous....SOW & SON definately forms a more interesting world & a more interesting game. Imagine if the game stuck to the immediate limits of the LORE lore, the game would probably suck alot. Most of the powers of Talion have an explanation & make sense in accordance of the game & these unlockable skills make the game more interesting. Imagine the limitations of the powers if the game followed the Lotr lore strictly, every explanation in the game makes sense & is understandable to the player & I believe that if Eru was always interfering in Middle Earth, why couldnt he intefere in the story of SOW???? Its possible that Eru was present in SOW but they did not explain how much he was present in the events that transpired in SOW
I absolutely love this video man you truly make some very awesome and beautifully detailed lore and lore comparasion vids of Tolkien's wonderful and great world of Middle Earth and I like the games very much too I completely agree with everything you said in this I love SOW and SOM but when it comes to Tolkien's lore its way off but I don't mind can't wait for another video!!!!! :)
Thank you :)
ThePhilosophersGames Your welcome!!! :)
Luke Skywalker the 2nd it’s just so good to have someone pronounce everything correctly omg
The power levels seem consistent with Legolas behavior in the Hobbit :P
And Shelob shouldn't have shapeshifted in the game. A psychological projection or illusion or even a wraith-like spirit projection may be better.
Haha :P Yes that's true.
Agreed, I guessed that they will go with the illusion powers in one of my earlier videos. It would have fitted better.
Personally? My theory is that WB had access to the Yennefer model from The Witcher 3, saw they were going to use Shelob and were thinking that talking to a spider might freak people out. So, they tweaked the model a bit, and slipped in best Geralt waifu to make it more 'palatable'.
Just my theory. I still think talking to the spider version would've been scary levels of fun.
@@Dogmelter42 This feels like a solid theory.
actually I think Shelob doesn't shapeshift. I think it's how Talion and Celebrimbor see her in the spectral plane. They just don't always show it that way
The only idea that might mitigate some of the clash is that most of the notable events that act as exceptions to the rules of death are one off events. So perhaps the power of these characters are the first and only instances of these things being possible. It is a huge stretch, I know.
Am I the only one who wants a simple game? With like a company of Ithilen rangers or something? Fighting a small campaign against raiding orcs/corsairs? with a personal story that doesn't require lore rape?
That sounds actually amazing. Agreed
Yes
No you're not, but big companies are trying to shove as much "iconic" imagery into their game which requires much lore rape
Star Wars had a game like that
I always thought that Sauron "holding the 9 and 7" was more metaphorical than literal
Yes possible, but I remember multiple occasions, where this is implied, that they all can't be metaphorical. Reading the books over the years after this video released confirmed the statement from the video even more.
I love this man purely on the facts that 1 he talks about Lotr and 2 he warns about spiders.
haha happy you like it ^^ Always great to talk about Tolkien and I know arachnophobia is quite common, so I hint at it, even though Shadow of War Shelob in her spiderform does not look that spider like, more like some kind of big Zerg from StarCraft ^^ (the in-between transformation form looks scary though)
In SOM it's somewhat explained within Talions character overview. Somehow Celebrimbor acts as some sort of conduit that is similar to a ring of power. As for how that is possible: maybe through that ritual you see during the prolouge where Talions throat gets sliced. I belive that ritual was first used by sauron in that flashback in Mount doom where they forged the one ring to somehow bind Celebrimbors spirit until he proves useful again. But that's only my theory for that legends topic
Morgoth: I'm mister lonely (mr. Lonely) I have NO BODY (I have no body) TO CALL MY OWN.
1:44 he gives an actual spider warning. I absolutely love that. Hate those damn things.
Yes I thought it was helpful for people with arachnophobia (i think it's quite common in the west). Feedback so far was very positive and glad it helped :) Thank you for commenting!
@@ThePhilosophersGames It had me in stitches lmao
But they are just like cats. If you like cute eyes, fuzzy things and little legs, spiders just have more of everything. A lot of beautiful eyes, a lot of legs, a fuzzy abdomen and the ability to build hammocks everywhere. Sounds great right. They are also great roommates, if you've ever found change in places where you didn't expect money, it's just spiders paying rent. They also get rid of mosquitos, flies and crickets for you.
spiders are amazing vreatures arachnafobia is a unrational fear.if you keep spiders you never worry about pests .and they are realy beautifull and have amazing physiology. i have normal house spiders i keep i clear the webs when they break or get dusty.and i have tarantulas in terarriums. facinating creatures that really do not harm i can pickup my spiders at any moment and pet them a little bit.
@@ricardomeertens9165 You might want to check your spelling first, it's "arachnophobia" by definition PHOBIAS are irrational fears ._. it's literally in the definition of the word.
I'm honestly a fan of mixing things up in the lore for the sake of a fun game. It's essentially a fanfic, where you can run around and have fun with a Tolkein setting.
Part of me wants them to go balls to the wall crazy and make a 3rd game involving the Valar and Morgoth returning. Be badass fun being able to fight literal gods.
I would also like to play as an Uruk, sort of rouge like except you're sort of possessing them and keep certain skills, but lose the orcs individual traits. Like a swapped perspective shadow of Mordor/war.
They hint at a third game at the end of the dlc with the elf but most people including myself absolutely do not want that. The elf lady blew her chance at being a decent character when she betrayed talion and took the ring then do jack all with it but betray talion again.
@@theblackbaron4119 That is Watch Dogs Legion
Actually I disagree with you on 1 thing Talion and Celebrimbors Fusion would be possible based on the fact that Celebrimbor wore the 1 Ring at one point. If he became a wraith like the ring wraiths it might bypass Sauron not having power over the dead. Due tho that change in the lore it could theoretically allow this to work this would also be allowed since the wraiths are technically undead in Tolkiens books.
Not too mention we don know if talion was already dead or in the process of dying when he was cursed that's a big thing depending on which it was.
Also
Celebrimbor’s situation is unique
Sauron basically banned him from going to the afterlife as references in the DLC (he says he’ll do this in taunts and straight up says you are banished from death)
It seems dodgy but considering we know Morgoth’s spawning of werewolves involved a similar process of controlling spirits, the Witch King does something similar with the Wights and Sauron is alluded to as a Necromancer of great import
It’s not really out of line to say Sauron could bind someone to Mordor in a capacity. It’s certainly different to instances we see in lore but precedent is still somewhat there
@@cory2925 Yeah I guess if you just make shit up anything is possible.
Based on everything mentioned about death, the one possible explanation I can think of for Talion's survival is that whatever sort of chant the Hand of Sauron said while killing Talion and his family doesn't necessarily just banish one from death, but rather it simply binds the individual it's being performed on to Sauron and/or his minions, so when their spirit is judged, they appear to be tainted and/or corrupted by the darkness of Sauron, and so are banished from whatever afterlife or peace once awaited them. As for Celebrimbor, I assume that wearing the One Ring, even if only for a brief time, caused his spirit to be judged as unworthy due to the Ring containing a fraction of Sauron's own essence and soul, and so he was cast out and cursed to be a Wraith.
I think the problem with this is, that it would still give a lot of power to those servants and Sauron, while Mandos himself is vastly more powerful and wise (so is Eru). Also the end implies that Talion could have moved on to a peaceful afterlife. It's strange. For SoM/SoW Celebrimbor: if we look at the other Ring bearers we don't really see that (in the books he is ofc not a Ring bearer and as a result this problem does not exist). Some Elves maybe have done worse and could still enter Madnos Halls. I guess it's in addition not the problem, that an Elf becomes a wraith, but that he is so powerful as one. Even preventing a human body to die and his soul to not move on to the afterlife is really a feed that is unheard of. It would be different if Talion would have been killed with a Morgul blade and "transformed" into a wraith, but that is not what we see.
I feel like the game was very similar to the movie Gladiator. The story of revenge and even Talion's death as he walks through the field.
Yes I can see some similarities now that you mention it.
We are blessed to have so many educated creators representing this artwork to the next age, thank you seriously.
Also talion actually did become a nazgul and replaced isildur after decades of fighting of the forces of darkness as the ring slowly corrupted him and then the witch king came and made talion a ringwraith but talion then pretty much dies after the one ring is destroyed by froto in lotr it also shows him walking in a meadow as he drops all his gear as he is walking but I guess that doesn't really make since because we don't know where men go when they die but I thought I'd put this out there as a detail you missed or you already said all this and I typed this for nothing
It should be in the video. But ofc there is not evidence for this in the books' lore and Isildur can't be a Ringwraith from the books' perspective too.
Thank you for not being the absolute fucking worst and just cause shadow of war doesn’t care about the lore doesn’t mean people who do lore comparisons need to be the worst 10/10 video
haha thank you 😅 I liked the game quite a bit and tried to be as "fair" as I could as big book fan.
47:35 its also worth noting that at that time the white council also had access to not one or two but three rings of power (the elven ones) when they attacked, so thats another reason for power disparity
Yes good point this comes on top of this.
(also sorry for the late answer)
@@ThePhilosophersGames no problem i recognize that this is an OOOOOOOOOOOOOld video
Truthfully I feel like the bigger lore problem isn't how many times Celebrimbor and Sauron would have had to march all over middle earth, but the sheer fact that Celebrimbor was not only capable of USING the one ring against Sauron (which according to Tolkien only a Maiar would have had a real chance of accomplishing) but that Sauron needed Celebrimbor to finish making the ring for him.
I'm assuming Carnan was intended to be an Entwife until someone pointed out Ents don't have magical shapeshifting powers and then she was rewritten to be more ambiguous.
I must point out that Tolkien doesn't reference an 'ice drake' but rather a 'cold drake' and it's not clear if he means by that a dragon which can breathe ice or simply a dragon that's unable to breathe fire.
Tolkien confirms that Sauron did bring the One ring with him to Numenor and managed to carry it off after it was destroyed. We don't know if he brought any other rings with him or if he even had any at that point that were not already bestowed elsewhere.
Personally I think one of the most confusing elements in the game is how much it completely rejects Tolkien's philosophy of how you can't defeat evil by practicing its crafts. Both Celebrimbor and Talion succumb to this philosophy. Worse still the game presents Celebrimbor's actions as a fall and Talion's as a noble sacrifice when in essence there is really no difference between them.
Yes I fully agree. Esp. with the last point regarding Tolkien's philosophy. It's like the most "un-Tolkien" story ever.
Yes it's ofc not clear if a "cold-drake" could have an "ice-breath" or something in this direction, but as said I assume it references those and they imagine them like that. I would not blame them for coming up with this idea ^^ But good point.
At the time of Ar-Pharazôn, Sauron already gave (at least) his 16 (or 15 depending on your stance on when Durin got his Ring) Rings of Power he had to Dwarves and Men. The Nazgûl appear Second Age 2251 for the first time, Ar-Pharazôn was born Second Age 3118. Ofc Sauron could have collected the Rings from his Nazgûl and taken them with him to Númenor, but I see this as very unlikely.
Really nice post ^^
I'm confused on how you mean the game rejects Tolkien's philosophy? Shelob (ignoring the tangent about her) says that Talion and Celebrimbor would've ended up replacing Sauron if they did fight him and win. Also Celebrimbor spends most of the early game saying of how perfect and free of corruption is new ring is, which sets up, storytelling-wise, how wrong he is when he ends up trying to fight for more power as the "Bright Lord." Talion differs from Celebrimbor in that he says he fighting for a better future for Middle-Earth, not simply Celebrimbor replacing Sauron, which causes Talion to be left for dead for good.
And Talion doesn't even win when using Isildur's ring, at best getting stalemate before getting corrupted finally, which seems pretty fitting for LotR, having him finally succumb.
@@GMP1isReal Talion is using one of the Rings. Hes fighting Sauron using Saurons own craft. Yes it isn't Saurons ring nor did he make it personally but Talion is using dark sorcery (like necromancy) against Sauron. Tolkiens entire philosophy is that you can't fight evil using evils own arts.
@@mattmagliocca956 Defeat and Fight are two different things.
Talion couldn't defeat Sauron but he did fight him. There is no reason why that wouldn't have been the case.
I think that celebrimbor merged remains of his soul and talion to empower him so he could survive but also stall talions death and besides it's not impossible for him to create the ring feanor created the silmarrilions so it's not implausible
As explained in detail in the video, that is not possible from the books' perspective, but feel to provide evidence, because to my knowledge dead elves don't empower other people and are not complete without their own body.
Fëanor was the most powerful Elf "smith" in existence and he did not empower anyone after his death by becoming an Elf wraith. The whole idea makes no sense in Tolkien's universe and contradicts the principles of fëa and hröa. I also don't see how a dead Elf can stop the death of a Man and basically deny the effect of the "Gift of Men", which was given to them by none other than God himself. Also how does talions's body work? When he dies he suddenly respawns somewhere else? Why can he climb those destroyed towers? The whole concept seems not fully thought through. I mean the immortality of Talion is better than the immortality of the Ainur, because he does not lose power on death of his body. That makes no sense.
It is possible to create a Ring, but not when Celebrimbor is dead and the Ring seems to basically require putting a part of himself into it (like the One), which elves can't do (only Ainur) and I never have heard that Fëanor made any rings without his own body.
There's still plenty of holes in the theory I'm about to put here but I think maybe it could explain some stuff? I think Celebrimbor's soul was partially corrupted after he wielded the power of the One Ring (some of it anyway). Towards the end of the DLC for Shadow of Mordor, he is clearly changing, relishing in his control over the orcs. So he was not able to pass into the afterlife, and became something akin to the ringwraiths.
His bond to Talion as far as I know has no basis in Tolkien's lore, but perhaps Celebrimbor was only able to possess Talion because Talion specifically was used to summon Celebrimbor back to Mordor? He only seemed able to possess Eltariel when she wore the new ring.
Ok, I'm about 3 years late to this party, and never got around to beating Shadow of Mordor (kept getting hunted down by this immortal orc immune to arrows, fire, sneak attacks, and who literally could only be killed by decapitation), but the Silmarillion kinda argues against you on the "putting some of himself into the ring" thing, what with Fëanor putting so much of his own essence into the titular artefacts, that being (in part) why they could never be recreated. So putting your own spirit into crafts is a thing elves can do, or at least Fëanor could. That is, unless the game is talking about something deeper than what Fëanor did, or if there's some explained distinction that I'm not picking up on.
For the Silmarilli Fëanor managed to put the Light of the Two Trees into them. I don't remember a mention of him putting a part of his spirit into these gems. Only that Varda also hallowed them.
@@ThePhilosophersGames
It's taken me a couple days to track down my copy of the Silmarillion, and I concede that you are right, it never explicitly says that he put any of his spirit into the gems (apperently my memory just made that up). That said, his statement that he could never again make their like implies that it was more than just a physical thing that went into their creation. I'm still going to comb through more of Tolkien's works, because I'm still not sure that it is just my memory being bad, but I concede for the time being.
However, there _is_ one instance of something being created by an elf that explicitly states that it consumed the spirit of its creator, although I'm not sure if the creation of Fëanor himself really counts in the same way.
In the History of Middle-earth books some of the other versions (Tolkien worked on) of many stories from the Silmarillion are published. Maybe there is something in it. I have to admit I don't quite remember for the Silmarilli, but I think in early versions they were less important and the idea of the Arkenstone from the Hobbit was distantly related (or borrowed) (see History of the Hobbit). So I would not be surprised if there would be another version of their creation. However how canon those old or newer draft/work in progress versions were is hard to say. I mean even the canon of the Silamrillion is heavily debated among some groups.
I can't remember an instance where an Elf put his spirit into an object, because from what we know Elves could not "wield" their spirit freely. The spirit was bound to the body and it needed the body o be complete, else an Elf would fade or become a "phantom". This seems to be different for Ainur.
The only objects (outside of the One Ring) that was a bit mysterious, maybe with a will of its own and which talked to its owner was Gurthang (made out of Anglachel). It was made by the Elves of Nargothrond (the original was made by Eöl the Dark Elf). The other was the Talking Purse of the Troll William. these two instances are very mysterious or mythological or you could say very "fairy tale-esque". Ofc there are also the statues in Cirith Ungol, but that again is Sauron's work.
That is all I can think off.
Wulf isn't the man who ambushes Helm in Shadow of War, it is another man named Siric who is a Rohirrim Warlord with Dunlending heritage, he also spent years trying to make peace between the Dunlednings and Rohirrim. But Shadow of War lore says he was there when Freca demanded Aelda marry Wulf. It also says the daughter he wished to marry was named Bernwyn and that they did marry in secret when he saved from from Dunlendings and they had a child named Siri (short version Siric I guess). Anyway thought you should know they were two different people who are basically the same in that they both asked to marry Helm's daughter and got denied. It is claimed the reasons he tried to assassinate Helm was because he fear Helm was growing corrupt and tyrannical after he saw Helm kill Freca so he and "Loyal Rohirrim Rangers" went to kill Helm. But I'm pretty sure that just the cover up for him getting denied Bernwyns hand in marriage
I can't remember if I said this in one of my previous comments
So I don't know if it's something the devs said or a theory, but here it is: There's an existing explanation about Isildur being a Nazgul. Some say that the devs take the reasoning that the nine we see in the game are not necessarily the first nine nazguls and some nazguls died before the story. So if you take that explanation, it could be argued than Isildur isn't one of the first nazguls at all, and he was just taken after so he can replace a dead Nazgul
(I can't tell how one would kill a nazgul but it's a fairly common explanation I've read quite a few times)
So i have a question about deaths in middle earth. Elves go to valinor humans go somewhere beyond time I think? And dwarves await the end of the world to rebuild it. But what about hobbits and orcs?
Hobbits are closely related to men (and counted as men i guess, just quite small :D), so they have most likely the same fate as them. They all wait in the halls of Mandos for some time.
For Orcs i don't have a good answer. Tolkien originally made them corrupted elves, but he distanced himself from that idea and wanted to change it, but he never decided before he died. So we actually don't know. There is so much lore, but sadly Orcs are a mystery.
ThePhilosophersGames funny that hobbits are more related to men than dwarves. I always thought hobbits would have come about by a cross breeding between the two.
To my knowledge the exact origin is unknown, but they are somehow related to the Northmen. Sadly I have not a more satisfying answer.
Indeed hobbits are but little men and have the same fate as men. The only difference is size.
If I had to guess about Orcs, I'd say they might be similar to the Nazgul in that their spirits don't really go anywhere and just linger on in Middle-Earth since they're highly corrupted Elves similar to how Nazgul are highly corrupted men. That's my assumption.
8:23 You know, the way the ring is being forged in this cutscene seems very silly. Shouldn't he have just some warm gold that was poked through with an iron spike or something? And then worked with more sophisticated tools?
I mean, I'm not a goldsmithing expert, but the watching him slam down with a hammer trying to look all epic for this historic moment in the Simarillion, while at the same time trying not to make the (supposedly unfinished) ring bounce off the anvil with the force of the blow...it just looks remarkably impractical and under-researched.
Yes, that's a good point ^^ For fun I checked this video about making a rose gold diamond ring: ua-cam.com/video/eLlv2WC1Fv4/v-deo.html Quite interesting.
To be fair, he is forging items like they are in videogames.
You slam a hammer on an anvil and wait for the bar to fill, then the background algorithm rolls for item quality.
Bam. Ring of power.
I’m kinda disappointed that not a lot of it fits in the lore because I REALLY like it. I think the story is really cool but because it doesn’t fit very well with the original source it gets so much backlash.
They never said it was equal to the one ring just that it was a new ring so and based on the ending it’s just equal to the other rings
if I understood correctly, at the end of the game, Sauron doesn't really appear in a fair form against Celebrimbor and Eltariel. He appears in the same dimension in which Celebrimbor can manifest himself and interact with Talion and Eltariel, that's kind of the same. So only Celebrimbor, Sauron, Celebrimbor's ring bearer, and probably Sauron's ring bearers can interact with this plane of manifestation. It's a fight that happens in their plane. I guess a normal human could only see Eltariel shadow slashing while they fight to the death.
Maybe, but he also transforms back and forth. Shouldn't the Unseen not reveal the truth more than the physical world?
@@ThePhilosophersGames I wonder if I got your reply correctly, my english is not flawless XD
But that's the most common explanation I saw
@@mitsunitaiko1742 no problem ^^
My question was: wouldn't this other "plane" reveal his true evil form too, which is not fair? (the other plane is I assume what Tolkien called the "Unseen")
@@ThePhilosophersGames I don't believe there's a name given to this plane they're in. It's a plane Celebrimbor and Sauron are in and other people manage to interact with it. Namely Talion because of his connection to Celebrimbor and the ring, Eltariel maybe because of Galadriel's light, Gollum maybe because he wore the one ring and probably the Nazguls, and let's not forget Shelob.
But Gollum doesn't seem to be able to interact with Celebrimbor, he can see and talk to him but I don't feel like he could touch him for example. While Shelob clearly can so she can interact in this plane
How did Celembrimbor travel back and fourth so fast to his barrow in mordor, he fast tracked, duh?! Lol.
^^
10:05 on the point of Shelob. In the Hobbit Bilbo can understand giant spiders of Mirkwood (Shelob's kin) while wearing the one ring, Gloumn's prolonged exposure to the one ring is probably why she can communicate with Gollumn, this is a more plausible explanation than her being somewhat telepathic.
Yes, good point. Though it could also be explicitly a power of the One Ring directly. Telepathic abilities are also not unusual in Tolkien's universe (e.g. Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel also communicate telepathically at the end of the LotR books on their way to the Grey Havens. In the Nature of Middle-earth book we find some sections that explain it further too).
Similar to the explanation of The Hobbit, I never thought that Shelob was telepathically communicating with Talion, but that he was simply able to understand her because he wore the New Ring
Good watch, I was wondering how these are or aren't possible to be with the lore and story. I quite enjoyed the artifacts and items to help with some aspects I may not have known before, like farming equipment.. Also, it helped establish a want in me to research the base lore and those of the origins of the universe. Also, established a stronger need to know more of Tolkien himself, his works and how he formed his beautiful world. Though when it came to the second it became harder to comprehend how such things are of any sense with the game... I could somehow manage to accept a bit of the first game, because I believed it had room to tell a tale in the universe, but separate enough to excuse a few lore mishaps. Then I researched more on Celegrimbor and such other things, the characters seemed as different alternate universe versions of themselves.. Then I played the second game... I couldn't really believe Talion would fall to the darkness, yet have a good ending once defeated. He should have kept to remaining himself to be a good and brave man. Also, another game I felt may have better fit into the LOTR story is War In The North, despite the main characters bumping into Aragorn and such other important characters... Thanks for the video and the spider-warning. I have a great fear of all spiders.
Greatly appreciated for the arachnophobic on giving the spider warning!
happy it helped you ^^
Just thinking I might start this game, was a bit dubious, as I am a ridiculous Tolkien fan. this was the exact video I needed to make that decision. Thankyou muchly
It's a good game, but imo he story leaves the path of the books even more than Shadow of Mordor. I see it as some kind of "fanfiction" ^^ With this it was enjoyable for me.
When necromancy first appeared in the game, I thought it was more like just filling an empty Orc body with some evil nonsense and setting the result loose. Of course that's disproven later.
I dislike putting words in a dead man's mouth but i think Tolkien wouldn't be upset with this as a albeit terrible writer I always think up new things to add constantly. Who knows maybe ge would've added the ork hierarchy if he was alive.
Thank you ! I love listening when I’m driving.
haha happy you liked it ^^ I would have not imagined, that somebody listens to my videos while driving, but I guess it makes sense 😅
Have a safe journey/trip/drive ^^ (no idea what the correct phrase is :D )
Awesome video! I haven't played it yet myself, but I have watched all of the cutscenes on youtube. You broke everything down perfectly. And I had no idea that guy was supposed to be Ar-pharazon! Really strange. Him becoming a nazgul sort of ruins his demise in the Silmarillion, where he is trapped in the chasm opened by Eru, upon entering Valinor. That gets thrown out the window. Helm hammerhand really caught me off guard, too. I don't understand why they reference these really obscure (to most fans) characters, that only the hardcore fans will recognize, but they completely change everything about them. Oh well. Also, there's a major plothole I noticed... In the first game, didn't Sauron need to reunite with Celebrimbor in order to take a physical form? Yet in this game, he doesn't. I thought that was the whole point of the first game!
Hi :D
yes you are right, they threw this unite to get physical form part totally out of the window, not that it ever made any sense ^^ But I forgot about that.
I think they just wanted to put references in the game.
In case of Ar-Pharazôn they probably don't have rights for his story anyway (forgot to mention this in the video). Ar-Pharazôn is mentioned in the Appendix A of LotR, so I assume they could have used his name. Helm Hammerhand is also mentioned in the books and even in the movies, even though not much. So the ones who really payed attention, get the reference I guess and give an "aha moment" (not sure if this expression is a thing in English). For people, who don't know the story it will definitely work. Not sure why the altered it that much though, probably to fit in the Nazgûl thing.
PS: Thanks for commenting as always :)
ThePhilosophersGames yeah, you're probably right. Although, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that they had the rights to use anything mentioned in the appendices? Im 95% positive that they mentioned several characters and events in the first game that are only in the appendices, and not the actual (LotR) book. Such as the blue wizards, morgoth, Gorthaur, Sauron's name in the first age, etc. Am I mistaken? (Oh also "aha moment" is a commonly used expression in English as well, my friend ^^ )
Thanks :D Wasn't sure about that phrase :D
I thought so too (that they can use the appendices), but maybe they don't have access to his [Ar-Pharazôn's] full story from the Silmarillion.
Also I found the reference for Helm's Nazgûl idea (forgot about that). After Helm's death, legends or stories were told, that he still haunts that place and sometimes you can still hear his horn. But it's a "story" ofc:
"There stood Helm, dead as a stone, but his knees were unbent. Yet men said that the horn was still heard at times in the Deep and the wraith of Helm would walk among the foes of Rohan and kill men with fear."
True, they wouldn't be able to use Ar-pharazon's full backstory, but I don't understand why this warranted a name change. Very odd. And that is really interesting about the legend of Helm living on as a Wraith! Never knew that before. Where did you find that? Unfinished tales, or the histories of middle earth?
No it's directly in the lord of the Rings appendices (Appendix A, The House of Eorl section; at the end). What is important to note here is:
"Yet men said that ..."
It's a "rumor" or legend, that sometimes people/foes still hear his horn. SO I wouldn't stretch that too far, but it's a reference I guess.
Imo if it didnt break lore it wouldve been boring. People dont seem to like the story, but i thought it was great. I can see ilúvitar bringing him back even as an undead. Maybe its a punishment as well. He held out much longer than the other wraiths seemed to and never really turned evil until very very end of his story. So like how many years did he hold off coruption?
Chad talion, virgin calebrimbor
But didn't Saruman actually find Isildur's remains? Iirc, there is a section in Unfinished Tales(?) where Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas actually enter Orthanc. While inside, Gimli discovers a secret room and find both the Elendilmir (the royal jewel of the High King of Arnor and Gondor) and a silver chain, which is immediately recognized as the chain Isildur wore around his neck to carry the Ring, meaning Saruman must have found Isildur.
A good point. I read it a bit as, that he only found the Elendilmir and the chain, and we don't know about his body. But it could be and the people are wondering about it. However, that makes the SoW scenario even more impossible :)
Quote:
For it seemed to them that these things, and certainly the Elendilmir, could not have been found, unless they had been upon Isildur's body when he sank; but if that had been in deep water of strong flow they would in time have been swept far away. Therefore Isildur must have fallen not into the deep stream but into shallow water, no more than shoulder-high, Why then, though an Age had passed, were there no traces of his bones? Had Saruman found them, and scorned them - burned them with dishonour in one of his furnaces? If that were so, it was a shameful deed; but not his worst.
Late reply but it could be the chain fell from his neck and that’s all Saruman found
The gemstone of Arnor could have come from any manner of places, perhaps it was looted and in an Orc or Troll Hoard, perhaps it was recovered and Saruman purchased it in his search for clues to the One Ring’s whereabouts
@@ItsButterBean1020 We know the Elendilmir was lost at Gladden Fields with the Ring as well and was on Isildur's person at the time. He was taking it with him to Arnor to be coronated and the only thing we know of to have been salvaged were the Shards of Narsil. Given that Saruman was obsessed with Gladden Fields (he rejected basically every other theory as to the Ring's location prior to Gandalf telling him about Bilbo and Gollum, only agreed to move on Sauron at Dol Guldur when he feared that he might find the Ring first, and went so far as to dredge the Anduin) it's reasonable to assume that Saruman found them in the same area.
Well, as long as Celebrimbor has not been granted a revival in Valinor, he is just a bodyless soul in Mandos halls, so he could be summoned and fused with someone through foul witchcraft, and i could see Sauron as a Maiar have the knowledge and enough powerfull henchmen to pull something like this off.
I read the books and just finished last week, they do mention the eye of fire if I remember well
I think it is when Frodo sees the visions in the well with Galadriel, she said that she can see it too
It's definitely a vision and metaphor thing, but what I mean there is no real world red eye flying over Barad-dur, that everyone can see. Sauron also had his physical form back during LotR. But ofc is is mentioned in the books to some degree.
yes, they actually never said it was an eye on top of the tower, but it was represented as such, and it was related to the ring, as If the ring itself was the eye of Sauron. Still, I don't think Sauron had a form, it was an evil force, a shadow
Yes that is a good way of putting it. Agreed he was like a shadow, that is over Middle-earth, but there are some hints of him having a physical form or let's say they could be interpreted that way. However if you look at how Tolkien depicted Sauron in a sketch he is definitely like a shadow.
tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:J.R.R._Tolkien_-_Sauron.jpg
all reference to his eye, to his hand, etc, are most likely a metaphor, but in case he had a physical form he would have been like a crippled being, a mere shadow of what he was when he had the ring. Nevertheless he had the power to brainwash and manipulate, and influence people who had darkness in their hearts, not only with his ring, but with something else. Probably with the other rings of power he had, the nazgul maybe, he was able to manifest through them or something, i guess we will never know
Even though SOW and SOM are not considered canon and instead as alternate scenarios, the games are still very good to play and re-play.
That's the good Thing about Games.
Movies with shitty Stories are just shitty Movies.
But Games with a shitty Story can still be amazing Games.
These games are just made by folks with just enough knowledge to say Hey this would be cool... but not enough to realize how ridiculous some of it hell most of it really is
haha yes some stuff (e.g. the main plots) is very off and I can see that it triggers some fans of Tolkien's lore. It was still fun playing.
This is probly my 5-6 time listening to this , awesome explainer video
Thank you ^^
@@ThePhilosophersGames im a Tolkien fanatic and you just make awesome videos man just gotta say.
Always nice to share the passion and discuss the lore with fellow Tolkien fans. It's so nice that it connects so many different people. Much appreciated!
@@ThePhilosophersGames need Tolkien more than ever these days
Yes I can imagine. Difficult times for a lot of people.
Shelob's ability to see the future may just be a reference to the role spiders play in other mythologies
As she says in one of her memories:
"I took the form of a spider because I wanted to walk the web of fate."
I feel that celebrimbor in the helm Hammerhand cutscene was kind of like a metaphor or something like that because when celebrimbor created the rings he put part of his life essence in them (kind of like Sauron and the one ring) and when they showed celebrimbor they were kind of implying that the rings were part of celebrimbor implying that celebrimbor was there somewhat. so in conclusion, celebrimbor was somewhat there in the form of his rings. (I’m probably far off but you get what I’m saying.). :)
Yep he says this straight up to Talion
yall can say or feel how you want i understand, personally i understand there are heavy revisions and changes here but i accept them over the original source material even its straight up gold. Better then the movies even IMO but i wouldnt blame anyone for feeling any different of course
Holy shit. For someone who’s only played shadow of Mordor and can’t remember the hobbit movies this is so confusing
haha yes there is a lot of stuff 😂 sorry if it was a bit confusing.
The game has some flaws but it's not terrible and given what the dlcs have given us it's safe to say the next game will be magnificent.
I'm also quite curious on what Monolith is working right now to be honest. I hope we see more Lord of the Rings related games ^^
I know that Shadow of Mordor/War are different from the books like the movies are. But let's all agree that the movies and Shadow of Mordor/War is more closer to the books than the Rings of Power will even be.
Possible, but hard to say. I would say Shadow of War at least also consists of a ton of fanfiction as well. Whole premise with Celebrimbor as revenge seeking spirit that remained on Middle-earth is imo contradicting the books and Tolkien#s ideas massively. There is ofc a lot of correct lore and nice references, but it also very often takes a lot of freedoms. To compare it to Rings of Power I would need to see the show first.
haha "spider warning". if only all spiders looked like this one!
Yes, Shelob doesn't look so scary in SoW, but some people already thanked me for putting the spider warning in the video, so it worked out I guess.
@@ThePhilosophersGames Shelob doesn't scare me, but the environmental spiders do. Their sound design is so...skittery, and they move in a way that makes them deliberately hard to keep track of
Thanks for explaining the minis ithil business. I was confused because everything I read says this game took place after the hobbit but I know minis ithil fell a while ago.
yes I can imagine it being confusing. They definitely changed the time line for this game a lot. Still a fun game!
Hmm...I would still prefer to work with a giant spider rather than a sexy gothic lady. Just seems more interesting.
haha I understand what you mean, I would still prefer the gothic lady ^^
@@ThePhilosophersGames I bet you do. Ha ha ha.
Man this game is beautiful and really deserves a bigger fandom
yes it's a pretty cool game
some of the lore changes killed a book fan like me. I could not take it. it was like if sauron forced me to wear one of the nine rings of men and become a nazgul.
When SoM was released I had trouble with it too, but I also somehow liked the game. So I see it more as some kind of alternate universe story.
I think it gives people, who are not into the books an opportunity to learn a bit more about the lore, even though the story does no fit so well. But many of the descriptions of items you can find, etc give more information about Tolkien's universe than other media (except the books ofc) and allow the players to dive deeper into it.
But ofc I can totally understand you. It does not fit the tone of the books, nor the story and lore or the topics of the books quite well and can be tough for a book fan.
it is a fun game to play and I enjoyed it a lot. I did finish it minus the true ending but constant sieges just for that ain't what I call a good time. the lore let me down but at least most of the Tolkien characters were still themselves. sauron, the nazgul and such were still themselves. but you know what I could accept this game as a more darker alternate universe of Tolkien's world. I wonder where the series will go next maybe middle earth: morgoth's shadow. or maybe the fourth age.final thoughts to say is it still kept to the lore of the universe is based in in than a lot of other games do.
Also you should do a video on the New Ring vs the One Ring differences and similarities
Now that is something I've always been curious about
I think it would make sense that Talion would be given a pass into the afterlife if you looked at his story, i mean he was cursed and only wanted vengeance for the death of his family and also wanted to die in peace with them, he had a tragic life so i think he deserve a place in the afterlife even if he did join the Nazgul, unwillingly though.
Yes someone asked about that in the comments here too. I would say you could argue both ways.
I copy a part of my answer.
There is the story of Gorlim, who fought with Barahir against Morgoth, but he got captured and tortured. Sauron suggested a a deal, that if he tells him where Barahir hides, he will be reunited with his wife. So Gorlim told Sauron. And Sauron explained, that his wife is dead and killed him too. He became a restless spirit too (Gorlim tried to warn Barahir's son though). So even with Gorlim fighting Morgoth and Sauron his whole life, enduring torture, this one time "screwed" him. Same could be said about Talion.
Also he could have just left the world several times, but decided against it. Revenge is not a noble motivation either, even though stopping and opposing Sauron is maybe something different. But he could have just died, without becoming a Nazgûl many other people who die, don't get that option and Talion was already dead anyway.
But yes he was making a big sacrifice to fight Sauron, so you can also argue in the other direction, agreed.
Agreed, he did what any man would have done.
I just assumed that Eru made an exception for Talion since in the game he is the only thing holding Sauron back for decades, without him in this version middle earth would've been overrun. Perhaps Eru recognised that aswell as the great sacrifices Talion made and showed Mercy on him, it's a stretch for sure but it's interesting to think about
Great content here man, very organised and comprehensible enough, thanks!
Thank you. Structuring the video and information always takes a lot of time in my production. Happy you liked it :)
A very well made video that fairly takes a look at things from the game, and how they contrast (one way or another) with he original world. I for one like Shadow of War for what it is; a game inspired by the world of Tolkien, but doesn't claim to do everything by the book. I really don't see the point in some people just complaining about the game - it doesn't take the original world away, and it doesn't claim to set new canon of Tolkien's world any more than, say; the the Lord of the Rings-The Hobbit movies. I'm a huge fan of Tolkien's world, but I'm not the kind of puritan who can't be open minded about works like this: I just take them like I would any work like this (no matter what IP), and see if I personally find them enjoyable.
Thank you :) This time I tried to work out a bit better, the positive things the game does, when it comes to some lore references (compared to my Shadow of Mordor and Tolkien's Lore video, where I focused more on the differences, which made it sound quite negative). I think a problem for many Tolkien fans is partially the marketing, which claimed, that it would fit perfectly into the books, which is no fully true. However the games let people, who are not so deep into the lore, explore it far more, than most games or even the movies. I can appreciate the games for this. They also put some effort into some parts, e.g. a story explanation for respawning, etc.
Orcs are quite sufficient builders they just need to be put to a task and they'll get it done rather quickly
I can only wish this game was canon. It made me want to watch The Lord of the Rings movies.
well the canon is a bit problematic for the most part ^^' But the LotR films and esp. the books are great
Lore breaks aside I actually find SoW's depiction of Shelob far more impressive and tolkien-like than the way she was portrayed in the movies, aka just a giant spider. So I mean that's something
I like how he says eru, really
Thank you, I like saying it too :) I also like the saying Sauron and Mordor, I think the sound fits their nature.
ThePhilosophersGames yes, I do think the way it is said by you really captures the essence and feel of the character or place
That's nice to hear :) I put a lot of time into researching pronunciations or deciding on one, when it's not 100% clear. It also makes recording more difficult, because I often have to re-read paragraphs, when I'm not happy with the pronunciation or make mistakes (happens a lot).
One thing there is with the Barrows. as far as i remember, he never specifically says it is elves buried there, so it is possible that "his greatest warriors" buried there are exclusively Uruk. As for getting them built, the towers in Shadow of Mordor were also built by Uruk, so they aren't lacking in craftsmanship, especially under Celebrimbor's guidance.
as for the giant soldier elf statues, i chalk that up to Celebrimbor simply having carved what he knows.
Yes that would make some sense, but wouldn't it be strange, that he builds barrows for Orcs? I red somewhere in my comment section, that this scene and parts of the story were planned differently, but the devs had to change some parts of it (maybe because Middle-earth Enterprises, who have the movie rights for The Hobbit and LotR, but are not the Tolkien family, disliked their ideas) and this is so to say a left over, which is why it feels a bit off. I think it's really strange.
Yeah, i fully see your point there.
I really love your video's man, but a question: I know elfes can deny the summon of Mandos, but can menkind also? I never really thought about it, but denying it means staying on Arda. I always thought they had to move on, having no choice in the matter.
Thank you :) It's hard to say. Men can be "banished" and stay on Arda as spirit like Gorlim, maybe it was also partially his decision, because he tried to warn Beren, but it was too late. I would argue, that they were able to deny the summon too, so they have a choice and aren't forced, but as with elves it would be pretty much unheard of.
Perfect. Really wanted someone to make this haha
And had no idea it happened
haha yes I remember making this video when the game came out. To this day I have no idea how I made it this fast and it even turned out to be a decent video.
@@ThePhilosophersGames it's very good! My compliments to the chef. And a Sub earned!
thank you and welcome ^^
Your "Spider Warning" is the best thing on the Internet. Someone needs to make that shit mandatory ^^
haha :D Good to hear, so the effort was worth it. I know some people, who suffer from arachnophobia and it's quite common in the west, so I thought it was a good idea.
ThePhilosophersGames It's awesome! Most people don't think about phobias, so it's a nice thing to see :D
Isn't one of the best ways to overcome arachnophobia to slowly introduce spiders into your world? Like pictures of them at first, all the way up to the point you can hold a tarantula in your hand. By all means put a spider warning in your videos, it doesn't detract from their quality at all. I just want to give some friendly advice that pictures are a good place to start when confronting a phobia. I used to be terrified of heights, so I started watching free climbing videos. As a result, when a tree fell on our house earlier this year and we had no other options but to repair the house ourselves, I was able to get on the roof and shingle as well as climb ladders to put up siding. It's a huge burden off my shoulders to know that when shit hits the fan that I won't be crippled by my fear. This has probably been too much for this simple youtube thread, but I just thought I'd share it because I was wondering why there was a spider warning.
Yeah, exposure is important for overcoming phobias but it's something that should be done in a controlled environment, usually along with cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). That actually has a success rate at around 85%-90%. However, many "cured" patients re-develop their phobias after a while - especially if they're very specific and pertains to something they don't get exposed to naturally in their daily lives. But you're right in that exposure is important, for sure, but even when it's not done in CBT you have to *willingly* expose yourself, otherwise it's just gonna be a chock which could send you straight into a panic attack. So I would argue that the "Spider Warning" is a good thing for both groups - and like you said, it's not like a tiny warning is inconveniencing those who don't have phobias :) Also I have to say I enjoy talking to someone on YT in a civil manner for a change :D So kudos for not being a dick about it :P
Right on, I can get on board with what you're saying, and I didn't know that many patients re-develop their phobias. Makes sense, I know I definitely still don't like heights, it's just the panic is easier to fight back.
Yeah I was just curious about why there was a spider warning, and wether a picture of a spider could trigger the fear response as well. Now I know. No problem dude, and thank you for being civil as well.
Great video! Very informative. I was thinking perhaps in the fight between Celebrimbor and Sauron, we see Sauron in his fair form because of a perception related flashback through the perspective of Celebrimbor.
Yes that's an interesting idea. I would also say it makes sense for the depiction in the game and as the visual part of story telling.
Yes, the "r"s are rolled, and I have travelled around the world hearing other languages like Spanish that rolls its "r"s. However, some online narrators/explainers roll the "r" for TOO LONG, so it sounds like a lawnmower motor unsuccessfully trying to start up over and over. You should say "m-ah-n-d-o-s" and "m-oh-r-d-oh-r", not "mandoTH" and moRRRRRRdoRRRRRR".
What is you native language? Because I never heard this in other countries, but hear these pronunciations from SPECIFIC person online.
I'm from Germany, but from a region, where rolling the "r" is not typical at all (e.g it's more typical in south Germany). At the start I try to roll them shorter, but after a time it's more convenient to do it longer. It's also easier with "Sauron" than with Mordor.
Mandos is /ˈmandos/. I form an /s/ at the end not a /θ/. But I sometimes mess up. Speaking regular english (which isalso not my native language) in between, gives me some problems. Saying the word alone is one thing, saying it in the middle of a sentence I find it quite difficult after a while or let's say, I tend to get sloppy.
But thanks for the feedback :)
Fell out of love with the LOTR/Tolkein universe, or just stopped caring, But these videos have dragged me back in, incredibly well put together pal.
Listen to these on the way to work/ when I'm just chilling I have them on in the background
Got a sub from me
Thank you! Oh that's a compliment :) I think Lord of the Rings has this kind of magic to it, that can really draw you into the world. Ofc it's not working for everyone, but it's so rich when it comes to details.
I rather they create a new IP, and keep the nemesis system. The game doesn't have to set in Tolkien's world.
I'm pretty curious, what they do after Shadow of War. I could imagine, that it will be something new, or they will find another scene in the lore and build something around it. When they still work with Middle-earth Enterprises, there will be for sure differences, which also means for me, that I can make videos, so I wouldn't complain either way :P
I wonder if Tolkein was alive today, what he would think of the games and films and his opinion on what they tried doing to help.
I think he would be ok with it as long as the essence of the games is in touch with his philosophy, which I believe that it is for the most part
TheSSBBfan666 I most wonder what he would think about Sauron being a Giant Flaming Eye in the movies and not having a physical form
Skullhoof nope its just what it needs
Great video, btw I always thought of Valar as Archangels rather than a god pantheon
Yes that works too. The idea of comparing it to a god pantheon came from, that there are Valar with different tasks and abilities. Like Aulë - Smithing; Yavanna - Nature; Varda - Stars and Light; Mandos - Death and Fate/Doom; etc So I thought it makes sense too and Tolkien was probably inspired by ancient mythologies (Norse, Greek, etc.)
Thank you :)
I treat the game as a fanfiction, a very, very good and detailed fanfiction, they're as equally as good as any fanfiction i've read :)
I think what i love about the World of Middle-earth is that, while it is incredibly rich with lore and story, it also leave some gap and holes here and there for reader, writer, artist, and gamer alike to fill it in their own way.
I have my own "Head canon" that make me happy, it's the one that Maeglin escaped the city of Gondolin alive, and go live with some human tribes, doing what he love, forging and stuff. and i made that solely because i like him, absolutely nothing more. That make me happy.
Some people find some event relatable to their own experience, and adapt it to their own imagination.
I'm an artist myself, and have drawn my favorite Tolkien character in a way that i like to see, what if Legolas have dark hair? What if warg as a puppy? what if i twist the ending a bit and Boromir didn't die? what if Frodo met Olorin, the true form of Gandalf, in Valinor? I want to draw them reading together, smoking pipe and showing other Ainur how firework look like.
It's just that so many people color down their own Middle-Earth in their own way. And this game is a really well-written "Head canon" too/
I can totally understand that. I often thought too about what if the story was a bit different at this point or what could happen if I chane up some things. I would even argue, hat this is very human to do, because we want to develop what we know and what we have learned further. So I agree SoM and SoW is good fan fiction ^^
I've been thinking about this thing of Zog the necromancer orc. I think he didn't exactly revive the balrog, or at least when I played it last week, I interpreted he just gave him the last push he needed to wake up. He didn't control it, but he sure as hell thought he could, which doesn't mean he did. And his necromancy thing isn't exactly bringing people back to life, and is more so puppetting orcs bodies much like Talion does later(the orcs he brings back cannot speak and can only fight, their mind is still gone, it's just the body that moves by itself).
The only orc who seemingly does come back to life is Zog himself during the game. But I don't think he actually comes back to life, it's more of a bluff and he never truly died. Maybe you don't know but in free roaming you can randomly find Zog again and he tells us we can't kill him, which is true to some extent. When we kill him in free roaming, he can **always** come back, unless you cut his head off. So it's not really an exception and more so a very hard Uruk to kill which has unknown weird stuff that will keep him together
(Also for the Nazguls, I believe I've read that Shadow of war's reasoning is that the Nazguls we see in shadow of war are not necessarily the first nine and Sauron doesn't care who are the nazguls as long as he has 9 nazguls. In the game Isildur dies and Talion replaced him. The game's logic is apparently that this wasn't the first time this happened but Sauron sneakily replaced the missing Nazgul everytime and no one noticed)
I appreciate your effort of reading every comment even years after a video released. I know none other who does that
No problem ^^ Yes I think that is one of my "unique" traits for this channel. I wanted to reply to your comment, but had not found the time yet, but I red it already. Writing long answers can be time consuming and I'm currently a bit stuck working on my next video. (also in some cases I simply forget to answer). In a way I'm inspired by Tolkien here, who also often answered in detailed letters to fan letters he got. So the least I can do is answer my comment section. In addition I think it helps making it a more positive place, because people know the creator might read this. (I only have trouble seeing comments buried in old threads of comments, because I can only sort by new stand alone comments independent of when a video was uploaded).
@@ThePhilosophersGames no worries, I get it if you can't answer. As I said, it's already incredible you still read back
After beating this game, I feel this games story is perfect for someone who has ZERO knowledge of the source material outside the movies. However once you learn at least ONE fact that they changed, the whole thing kind of falls apart. I went from feeling the story was serviceable, to simply not caring. I saw someone compare this to Star Wars Force Unleashed, but there are some differences with that. First off, Forced Unleashed was a better game so let's not go their. Second off, unlike this game, the Star Wars games at least had SOME form of cannoicity before Disney hit the reset button. I know Tolkeins son hates the movies cause of how they simplified the story. But I feel he would have a heart attack if he saw what they did with this game.
Agreed :) I like the phrase falling apart, when you know one fact.
Daniel Silva "heart attach" lolwut
I think it is respectful for SOW to bend lore a bit as it doesn’t lower story quality too much especially since it only plays with smaller more untouched things like the identity of the Nazgûl
The pronunciations. Mah Gawd.
Yes some find them annoying, but that's about how they are pronounced. Sometimes I mess up. esp. the stress. Sounds better when Tolkien reads Quenya:
ua-cam.com/video/6de_SbVUVfA/v-deo.html
I'm pretty much aware about the pronunciations, but you sir, you were perfect. especially when you mention CELEBRIMBOR. :D Keeleeybrimbor. Wonderful video great job.
Thanks a lot ^^ I would say sometimes it's elvish with a German accent :P
Your "Mordor" pronunciation sounds great =D
Thank you ^^ That word often gives me trouble trilling a bit shorter (I often try to trill shorter, so it sounds not like a overemphasis on it). Happy you liked it :)
For Celebrimbor's rebellion and the timeline, I'd say it is one of the points were they took bigger liberties in order to have the plot they wanted. In the game, Celebrimbor is not in Eregion. Instead Sauron takes him to mount Doom in order to put the finishing touches on the One Ring. Then he steals the ring, forms a rebellion by mind-controlling a bunch of orks, but then the ring betrays him and he gets captured by Sauron, who then executes his family and him. This all happens within Mordor, and it takes quite a bit of time, as it is implied that he was the one who built all the towers you have to climb in SoM. By the same note, it is also implied that he built the original fortress that later became Minas Ithil, as he says that Sauron was using "his towers" to put the Haedir stones. If we consider that, it is possible he built the Barrows underneath at the same time, in preparation, even though there were no elves fighting on his side at the time.
Speaking of Haedir stones, I was under the impression that they weren't working the same way as the Palantír. Instead they were practically windows through which Sauron could observe the world as if he was looking through a Palantír, but for them to work, they had to be placed close to the action, so to speak. It's because of this limitation that Sauron really wanted the Palantír in the tower. Furthermore, it is also likely that Sauron must have had something like a fake Palantír, or maybe a damaged one that needed the Haedir stones to fulfill its function but could still influence the people who were trying to use the other Palantírs.
Yes exactly, that is how I originally understood his movement in the game too. But the implication that he got some elves and went to Mordor, building barrow for them, threw me off a bit. Someone here noted, that they originally planned it a bit differently, but then things changed during development and said screw it, now he has barrows in Minas Ithil.
I would not have a problem with the Haedir towers, but after Sauron receives the Minas Ithil Palantír, Celebrimbor mentions, that they extend the range, which makes not sense (book) lore wise.
Thank you for commenting :)