As a harcore Tolkien fan, I gotta say, since it's not a NON CANON game, the changes made to the lore for dramatic and entertaining experiences, didin't bothered me much.
Im not saying it's fair or anything, It's just an "If story" of some kind. Just not the canon that I gre reading, and since it's not part of the REAL story, I find no reason to get upset :)
Emanuel Stenberg well creating a whole New fantasy feanchise with orks and an Elf gohst and magical rings would have been called a lord of the rings Ripoff from the Start.
I think you're missing the biggest lore break of them all. Possibly you didn't mention it because you thought it was implied, or because you saw it more as a Shadow of Mordor lore break than Shadow of War. But here it is... Celebrimbor is the ring maker. In the games, Celebrimbor forges all the rings of power, including the one ring. In the actual lore, Sauron is the master smith who forges the one ring. He also teaches the craft of ring forging to the elves, and Celebrimbor is able to forge 3 lesser rings (lesser in power and also in corruption). These are the rings of the elves, worn by Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf. In the books, only Sauron is mighty enough to forge the one ring, and only he is its master. He is a maia who was taught how to craft and forge magic items by the Vala Aulë the smith, who is (more or less) the god of the forge. So he really doesn't need an elf to forge a magic ring for him.
elbentzo you know, i like the game version better, it makes sauron look like more of a parasite with all that thing about fooling celebrimbor to forge the rings. thoughts?
elbentzo, you are absolutely right on this point. 100%. For myself, because I enjoy this series, I have a personal head canon for this critical detail. My theory is that in this timeline (because by this point, this is absolutely an alternate universe) Sauron wanted greater influence over the Three that Celebrimbor forged independently, and dragged him to Mt. Doom to "forge" a greater connection between the One and the Three so that his master plan of controlling all the races would have greater chance of success. However, Celembrimbor stole the One and rebelled, and by the time Sauron retrieved it, the bearers of the Three had already sensed the threat and removed their rings as in canon, foiling Sauron's plan.
Sean Francis no, in the original game (SoM) they explicitly say and show that it was Celebrimbor who forged the one ring for Sauron. Not that I mind too much, it was still a very fun game. I'm just saying, if you're going to make a list of places where they broke the lore - this should probably be number one.
felipisr666 I like the Silmarilion version better. Makes Sauron much more powerful and menacing. He is a near god, not just some dude who plays others for fools. But to each his own, I can see how you can have a different idea of Sauron than me.
minor note, but you mentioned that Celebrimdor also forged the one ring to rule them all. The one ring was actually forged by Sauron in secret. And the three rings for the elven kings were forged in secret from Sauron in a way that, while still subject to the one ring, were much less corrupted than the others.
From what it looks like in the cutscenes of Shadow of Mordor, it almost looked as if Sauron made the One Ring then made Celebrimbor add his own touches to it some point afterwards, while at the same time he secretly did this in an attempt to turn the One Ring on Sauron and take it for himself, only for Sauron to reclaim it as its true master.
@@NiCoNiCoNiCola I’m pretty sure he feigned seduction and tricked Sauron into thinking he willingly helped him perfect his One Ring or whatever he was doing. Maybe he was applying the runes.
Except for the Shadow Wars at the end. That oh-so-enjoyable slog of doing one siege defense (or siege assault if you fail the defense) after another after another ad infinitum.
Zach Buford Kinda is a massive understatement, it broke the lore like a snapped twig. It's like a bad fanfic. BUT you can still enjoy the game, thats fine.
I actually liked the idea of more fleshed out backstories for some of the Nazgul. The books only ever told us that most of them were kings who got corrupted by their rings but we never really got to know them. However, choosing someone like Isildur or Helm Hammerhand as a Nazgul was complete bogus. Sauron never gave a shit about Rohan and he deeply hated Isildur for taking the ring from him.
I can imagine how this idea came about. Developers sitting in a conference room Dev 1: Hey, in our sequels let's include the 9 Dev 2: sure! and give them backstories Dev 3: "Isildur" and "Helm Hammerhand" are mentioned in the movies, how about these names? Everyone: Great Idea!!!
That whole Helm being a Nazgul pissed me off: -Helm being a Nazgul. When the Nazguls were formed thousands of years before Helm was born -Celebrimbor being there, alongside Sauron, when Helm received the ring. When Celebrimbor died in the Second age -Sauron having an elven guise. When he lost the ability to have it for good after Numenor fell.
@@konstantinoskalavrezos5273 Mostly because that's not how the Rings work. You can't put one of them on somebody and they instantly turn into your slave. It takes decades of willing use of the ring. Isildur, in that situation, could simply take it off. Or kill himself. Or use it to fight his way out with the power boost, THEN take it off. The danger was in the temptation to use them for power, and it took centuries for them to work the ill effects. The instant slavery was only possible if Sauron had the One. And, in this case, he didn't. (And even then... it was possible to take a ring off to escape the enslaving. At least for those wearing the Three.)
@@Swiftbow I find it even funnier how Orcs fished out a giant ass human king clad in heavy metallic armour, but not a small ring that specifically watns to come back to it's master and would easily get into the hands of an orc in a lake like that
Hold on a sec--that whole thing about Isildur and Helm getting turned into wraiths by having rings put on them after death? That means that Sauron knew exactly where Isildur died, because he found his ruddy corpse! And yet he never found the One Ring, despite it being in the lake right next to Isildur's body and presumably calling out to its master?
Not to mention, the ring fell of isaldurs finger when he entered the river, it's entirely possible the ring drifted further up the river than isaldurs body, and smeagol found the ring before sauron could dispatch goblins to get it.
The Ring fell to the river. Even if Sauron knew where to look for, it could've been anywhere by the time he recovered. Remember that it took him a couple thousand years to regain some strenght. Besides, the idea here is that by just putting on the One Ring, even if for a brief period of time, it is enough to grant corruption. That's why all Ringbeares eventually went to Valinor. Isuldur died and his spirit as already enthralled. Doesn't explain how he got one of the Nine posthumously thou, and whatever happened to it's previous user...
Well, that's kind of the point. What would be left of Isildur's corpse after Sauron reformed himself, which, as you say, took a thousand years or more? Enough to put a ring on it and bring it back as a Ringwraith? It just doesn't make sense either way.
Dude, they are wraiths. They don't have, or need bodies. That's why they are "invisible", they are the physical manifestation of their corrupted spirits. If, giving Shadow of War's interpretation, Isuldur was corrupted by just using the One Ring once, then what happened to his corpse doesn't really matter.
Question: Can Elves wield magic? Answer: Yes. Question: What are Orcs? Answer: Elves twisted by Morgoth's dark magic and influence. Question: Can Orcs wield magic? Answer: No? Because why?
Daniel Howard You answered yourself in that comment. Morgoth hated elves, and that’s why he kidnapped some and twisted them to be his slaves, the orcs. And besides, they weren’t created with pure intentions and that doubtlessly took away much of what they could have been if a pure-hearted Morgoth had made them with Eru Illuvitar’s blessing.
@@lokki3791 Intelligence isn't linked to magic in the world of Arda, magic draws from one's Fëa. The Fëa of orcs is weak and tainted, which would be why they can't use magic is my bet
Not all elven factions are the same. Celebrimbor is one of the Noldor, and Noldor are more powerful than e.g. the common wood elves of Mirkwood, owing to their time spent in Valinor. Of course it's nowhere close to how Tolkien envisioned the whole thing, but it's definitely nowhere near as egregious as some of the things listed here either.
Gandalf actually says, in the extended edition of the Fellowship of the Ring, that he studied orc magic. It might just be a movie thing but it’s at least mentioned.
It's so laughable when people talk about these 2 videos games in relation to the original Arda Legendarium created by JRR Tolkien! Obviously, they are not set in that universe but the Arda Legendarium of the live-action 'The Hobbit' & 'The Lord of The Rings' film trilogies instead!
@@Optimegatrongodzilla The movies didn't make Isuildur or Helm into Nazgul... You can talk about taking liberties in the movies but Christ man, don't cherry pick.
@@dr.feelgoodmalusphillips2475 They never said in the movies that that didn't happen though, so, that opened the door for Monolith to add to the mythos that Peter Jackson & Philippa Boyens created for their film adaptations of Tolkien's material.
I agree with pretty much everything here, and there are other moments you have not mentioned as well, some pedantic fans might get really upset. But I just wanted to say, please don't. As a whole and aside microtransactions, this is a very solid, fun game. Monolith never promised a "by the book" adaptation, and basic mechanics of Nemesis and siege would never allow that anyway. Still, writers did a great job of moderately molding the lore and making new one, so you could play a fun game about different aspects of Mordor and Middle-earth, and they would still seem legitimate. Both those that never read Tolkien and die hard fans can enjoy this game, on condition that they don't take it *really* seriously lore-wise. I mean, running around Mordor with an elf wraith inside you, meeting Shelob (although it would be cooler if she was always a spider, think about people with arachnophobia), seeing similar-yet-different culture among orcs, who sing and drink and discuss and stuff (rather than just abstract evil army), are all so fun and cool and you would not be able to do that if all LotR games were 100% faithful. I think fun and variability outweighs the need of some people to say "hey they fucked up book lore"
I've never read the books or watch the movies myself but I love this game and because of that I kind of want to watch the movies then maybe even read the books
You really should. One thing is certain, Lord of the Rings is one of pylons, staples of fantasy genre. It would never have gotten so much praise and popularity if it wasn't good anyway. It's a huge, detailed saga that makes simple "good vs evil" trope come alive through a big detailed world and plethora of interesting, relatable and different characters and well knit story that is fun to follow. Assuming one does not have allergy to reading/fantasy, probably every man should read the trilogy. And even if you don't, LotR movie trilogy is just as good as popular, naturally making some adjustments but still doing great justice to the books as much as a movie could have. Surely you can find few hours for simple to watch and understand, fun movies that immerse you in the books atmosphere correctly. TL;DR don't just want to watch the movies, watch them. And afterwards you will likely make up your mind whether you want the books or not
Lore trumps everything for me. Fun and variability are irrelevant at the end of the day if the product isn't lore friendly, at least when it comes to Tolkien's works.
To be fair Shelob is a shape changing entity, much like gandalf took the form of a human when he came to middle earth, Shelob took the form of a demon spider.
Tybalt S I assume they are from Khand buddy, Games workshop gave Khand a Chinese vibe in their Khand models for their tabletop game so I guess that’s where they got the inspiration from, that’s also where Suladân comes from too... though he isn’t a Nazgûl, just a king of Harad
@@pepebabushki9376 because those two broke control of Sauron, even though Sauron should have full control over them. Two Asian ladies also apparently killed two Nazguel as well, which I call bullshit on.
I'm fairly certain that Minas Ithil fell twice in the lore, the first time in the war against Sauron shortly after the fall of Numenor and the second time after the Gondorian kin-strife
Actually, the second time was shortly after the elves and men of Gondor destroyed thwWitch Kings realm of Angmar. Later on, he would gather all nine ring-wraiths and take Minas Ithil. It's still several centuries before the game takes place though
The Isildur and Helm thing, while kinda cool and obviously put in to rope some fans in....was completely insane and I can't believe they got the go-ahead for that. I wont even mention the Shelob being Sauron's lover paradox or her inclusion in general. I would have found it interesting though if due to Talion's fall to becoming a wraith she was permanetly transofrmed into a spider and her mind slowly drained away into the version we know from the movies.
The Nazgul can add more to their ranks its is stated that both king and man can fall into the servitude of becoming a nazgul as long as Sauron demands it. So even if he was not born at the time they where spotted they added more to their ranks. Sauron can add or remove who he pleases.
Not every nazgul were “created” at the same time. The which king being the first. In the eltarial dlc we saw 2 nazgul being proper killed and being replaced by the 2 sisters. So it’s entirely possible that helm could be a nazgul,
2:57 actually u are correct there. I dont remember what type of spirit took the form of a spider that laid the eggs off Shelob, but she actually cant take the form of a human
The only part of the game that truly broke the lore was that Celebrombor crafted the rings when he only really made the three elven rings and the new ring.
According to the game some of the 9 get replaced so Isildur replaced one. What doesn't make sense, however is that Sauron hated Isildur because he is the one resposible for his fall. Personally i would have prefered a game about what Aragorn did before the events of the LotR since that way, they wouldn't have had to mess with the lore.
As far as I know they have not told us about when he went to Umbar or the Easterlings or Harad. He is my favourite character and I don't feel like he is that flushed out. even a game about the Fall of Numenor, the wars against Melkor or the last Alliance would be epic. There are so many storys in Tolkins lore that they could have done instead of making a new story.
Not to put to fine a point on it, but lets be honest. The whole game is lore-breaking. Wraiths do NOT posses people, they kill them and drain their life. They do not retain their personalities either, no matter what race they are or how important they were in life. the whole franchise would have J.R.R. Tolkien screaming in rage for days if he saw it. But its a game. Enjoy it for what it is.
That really depends the type of person he is. I know personally I wouldn’t mind if a game took a world I created and changed it as long as it was amazing and made it clear that it wasn’t canon. This game has done both
Your Lord and Savior - Balrog No it hasn't, they keep attempting to justify that the game is still mostly lore friendly from what I've seen. He also didn't seem to happy when people adapted his works to fit their own ideas.
Tolkien was extremely particular about his work. When they made the 1st LOTR, Hobbit Movies/Cartoon he was so appalled by it that he refused to sell the rights to his other works. BTW this is why we don't have movies about the 1st and 2nd age.
Ray Mobley, My mistake. Christopher Tolkien who more or less controls the Estate until he dies was appalled by the 2000's films. He said he wouldn't sell the rights to Tolkien's other work.
What strikes me a lot in this game is the fact that you can win faces a balrog. Even Gandalf is afraid fighting it, and in this game, you do it so easily...That's a balrog ! A creation a Morgoth, not just a pitty pet !
I know I am really late to the party, but I would like to add something. According to Tolkien none of the Ringwraiths were in possession of the rings of power, Sauron had them all. The rings were use to corrupt them, but it never stated explicitly that any of them men actually wore them.
Most of the people who played the game are casual fans of the LOTR movies/books. As one of them, I didn't even really notice half of these my first time through and I could have totally bought all of it. If that's what they were going for, they definitely nailed it. They did have to make a compelling game set in a well established universe with it's own lore after all. People can be free to interpret books as they will and often do with anything that is not said explicitly by an author. Where did Tolkien ever say Shelob WASN'T a woman who then later chose to be a giant spider or that Ringwraiths can't be replaced with other people posthumously?
where did Tolkien write that Aragorn wasn't a jedi? where did Tolkien write that Sauron wasn't really an Alien from Mars in hiding? where did Tolkien say that Peter Parker wasn't the one who found the ring before Gollum? I can go on for hours... point is your argument is very weak at best.
HAHAHAHA then in my mind you've helped me prove it's a terrible argument. Art is nonsense, at least in modern times, that's what I learnt at art school, I remember my teacher would say "if you want to be a politician come to an art school because we'll teach you how to bullshit properly."
(Before I start, I enjoyed the game. I only dislike people defending massive breaks from the lore as something that actually makes sense and should be the new lore) Well.... Shelob was the child of Ungoliant, the orginial Giant Spider, neither Ungoliant or Shelob has ever been mentioned to have shapeshifting powers as I can recall (though it has been almost a decade since I read the Silmarillion). All spiders descended from Ungoliant, which was a creature even the valar and maiar didn't know the origins of, but they theorised it was born from pure darkness. Basically, all Shelob is, is a fat spider born from the original, most evil, biggest and fattest spider. The "it never said it wasn't possible in the books" is a silly argument, you could use that to argue that Aragorn can shapeshift into a rainbow coloured flying pig.
That being said, I don't mind Shelob in the game too much personally. The Isildur and Hammerhand thing is more annoying because it feels so lazy and it's so unnecessary.
Saruman: "Sauron has regained much of his former strength. He cannot yet take physical form, but his spirit has lost none of its potency.". Yet in Shadow Of War we see Sauron take to physical form plenty of times. This is one of the big lore breakers to me. It defeats the purpose of him being detached from the ring.
Late asf but he has a body in the LOTR movies. Aragon uses the Palantir to threaten him and you see Sauron hold up his Palantir, using his armoured body. It makes sense that Sauron wouldn't show Saruman the whole truth since he is the deceiver
@@AlexS-nx2oh I also think the 'not being able to take physical form' thing is film only. In the books, it is implied he still has a physical form, he just never shows up. Though he should be stuck in his 'Dark Lord' form at this point.
I'm actually fine with the ending. Only 2 of the Nazgul were ever named (witch king of angmar and his second in command). Who says Talion couldn't have been one of them?
Sauron forged his own ring of power by the way, the elves didn't help him, he literally forged the One ring in SECRET, nobody knew about it, until it was waaaaaaay to late.
When we're talking about the wraiths, lets also mention Suladan, proclaimed wraith by monolith, but also a present general of the southrons at the Battle of the pelennor fields
If only that were so simple, but unfortunately, as Tolkien wrote it, the Nazgul are basically indestructible as long as the One Ring exists and Sauron grows stronger as Gandalf said: "You cannot destroy Ringwraiths like that,' said Gandalf. `The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him." Nazgul grow stronger as Sauron does, he can empower them additionally. It requires a rare special kind of weapon to even harm them since ordinary weapons disintegrate upon touching them (at least Witch-king but most likely all): "Look!' he [Strider] cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. 'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.'" With the Nine Rings it is actually an interesting thing that it appears Sauron after losing the One, took the Nine rings from Nazgul and kept them himself (probably insurance against theoretical loss of control if someone were to claim the Ruling Ring). I other words the Nazgul would not have the rings with them.
fantasywind The Barrow blades disintegrate if they hit a Nazgûl because Merry's actually did. The quote you gave of Strider is saying that Frodo's attack missed.
Yeah...and there is also stated "all blades perish that pierce that dreadful king", which definitely means that weapons used against them are destroyed and Nazgul can't be really slain by them, even when pierced. And only the Barrow Downs blades are capable of really harming them, since they were made specifically for that purpose, "wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor." It appears that even when used on Barrow-wights the blades might be damaged since blade Frodo uses to hack wight's arm is broken.
What Tolkien meant to portrait is what the people of Middle Earth THOUGHT about the Nazguls. Case in point, the Witch King WAS KILLED by a normal blade. Nazguls were all smoke and mirrors, their main weapon was the dread they brought with their names.
Yeah after the MAGICAL BLADE did it's damage: "But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee. 'Éowyn! Éowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang." ... "Then he looked for his sword that he had let fall; for even as he struck his blow his arm was numbed, and now he could only use his left hand. And behold! there lay his weapon, but the blade was smoking like a dry branch that has been thrust in a fire; and as he watched it, it writhed and withered and was consumed. So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." Besides both 'enchanted' blade of Merry and Eowyn's ordinary sword got destroyed, hence Aragorn's words "all blades perish that pierce that dreadful king" are true in the universe, a knowledge gained by thousands of years of encountering this menace. Characters in story may have limited knowledge of certain things but others are proved to be true statements. Just as there was knowledge of how to deal with dark magic of morgul-knife to prevent victim from turning into a wraith, in Elrond's head, there was some knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of Nazgul gained by painful experience. Indeed their great weapon was fear, but they had other strengths and powers.
I actually like that they changed it. It feels good see something else besides the main story line. This video sounds like he just didn't like the game and was mad about how they did things. Also if it's not canon what does matter if they broke lore.
Actually, the only bad part about Helm is in fact the timeline error. He was alive when Celebrimbor and Sauron came with the ring and as we all know, he willingly accepted the ring and it's power
The ring was never "free of corruption." It may be free from Sauron, but that idea of it being pure was used to trick Talion, until the end of the game, where Talion realizes what Celebrimbor is doing. Also pretty sure Shelob became a spider after being betrayed by Sauron.
Another point I'll add: the game seems to fundamentally misunderstand why the lesser rings were even created in the first place. The Elves did not create them to bring "order" to the peoples of Middle-earth, as Celebrimbor says after the Helm Hammerhand flashback. The Elves created them with the power to *preserve*--to prevent change, to decelerate what they viewed as decay. Being immortal, the Elves wanted to shape their environments to be long-lasting, and to that end, they planned to keep and use the rings themselves. Sauron--who yes, took on a fair physical form and called himself Annatar--helped Celebrimbor forge the rings with another secret purpose in mind: domination (of the Elves in particular). He made sure each of the lesser rings was crafted in a way that their holders could be controlled by the holder of the One Ring to rule them all, which he crafted secretly in Mordor. Indeed, the holder of the One Ring could perceive and control the very thoughts of people who held lesser rings. But when Sauron put on the One Ring, the Elves sensed what he was trying to do, and they immediately took the lesser rings off their fingers. Sauron hadn't expected this. Enraged, he sent an army to destroy Celebrimbor's home and retrieve the lesser rings. He succeeded in retrieving 16 lesser rings; 3 evaded him and were sent to other Elves, and Celebrimbor refused to reveal their locations. Sauron then killed Celebrimbor, and only THEN did he start distributing the 16 lesser rings he had retrieved--7 to Dwarves, 9 to Men. He figured that he might not be able to use the One Ring to dominate Elves who held lesser rings, but he might be more successful in dominating the minds of Dwarves and Men. He was only partially correct. The Dwarves were too hardy and could not be dominated. But the nine Men were indeed dominated, and they eventually became the ringwraiths--the Nazgul. Turning into wraiths was a side-effect of the lesser rings' power to preserve--the rings "preserved" their holders as wraiths. The game drastically changes all of this. There is no hint that any of the lesser rings was created to preserve; they are only shown as instruments of domination, even when Celebrimbor and Annatar first made them.
But... they _were_ instruments of domination? Just because Sauron told them the rings would preserve things (which, you know... they also did, considering the Ringwraiths are still alive-ish) doesn't mean that was their primary purpose. Why would we see their fake, purported abilities (long after the original deception, when it might have mattered), when the game is focused on the domination aspect... which they also had? I'd hardly call that a drastic change, simply a tonal shift.
In The Silmarillion and his letters, Tolkien stated that the Elves created the lesser rings with the purpose of preservation. Sauron worked with Celebrimbor to make 16 of the lesser rings, and he secretly had other purposes (domination) in mind when he was helping craft them--these 16 rings he later stole from Celebrimbor and further tampered with them before distributing them to Dwarves and Men. So yes, because of Sauron's involvement, these 16 rings could be used to both preserve and to dominate. But that was entirely because of Sauron's meddling. The Elves' motivation for creating the rings was to preserve their own realms. The 3 other lesser rings--those that were eventually held by Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf--never were touched by Sauron, and thus they could not be used for domination. The drastic change the game makes is declaring that a power-crazy Celebrimbor created the rings with Annatar/Sauron to "bring order" to Middle-earth, and it has the two of them distributing the rings to others (like Helm Hammerhand) to achieve this purpose. This is far from a tonal shift. In the books, the Elves never wanted to use the rings to dominate others, and they certainly never distributed the rings to other races. The game changes the Elves' fundamental purpose for the rings, and along with it, the entire history of the rings.
You kind of answered your own point. It's Celebrimbor who does these things, not the 'Elves' as a race. The games did an excellent job of showing us his slow slide into power-mad control-freak - from being initially deceived by Annatar, to the realisation of betrayal, his war against Sauron (in both lives) and his eventual betrayal of Talion. (And yes, I know that in the books Celebrimbor had nothing to do with the 16 lesser rings and delegated the task to Eregion smiths - but if we're not accepting the premise that Celebrimbor had a direct hand in all of the rings of power as the game shows, then all the other lore bending become somewhat irrelevant anyway) All i'm saying is that the game didn't (purposefully or otherwise) 'misunderstand' the secondary purpose of the rings, it just chooses to focus on their primary purpose as dictated by Sauron's corrupting influence as it's 1) more relevant 2) allows for the otherwise difficult to implement gameplay aspects and 3) makes for a better story. But yes, I will concede that the somewhat unexplained motivations behind presenting the Kings of men with rings of power _with_ Sauron (as opposed to that coming after Sauron realised they wouldn't work on Elves) is a bit confusing. I assume that Annatar explained some kind of plan that made sense at the time (He's the Deceiver, who knows?)
The game indicates that domination was a motive not just Sauron had in making the rings, but also Celebrimbor. After the Helm Hammerhand flashback, Celebrimbor justifies standing by Sauron in distributing the rings to the kings of men because "Those rings were meant to bring order." That's his direct quote, and it indicates that Celebrimbor had a domination motive when he created the rings--well before the game's events. He does also complain that he was "deceived" by Sauron, sure--presumably because Sauron wanted to dominate even him. He then doubles down, consoling Talion by noting that at least this time, "It is not noble men we are dominating, but savage Orcs." So Celebrimbor made the rings "to bring order" to Middle-earth and dominate "the minds of noble men." This is a radical change to the lore. I'd have much preferred if they had maintained the original story and instead showed Celebrimbor falling into a power-crazed state during the game rather as he gained more and more power--rather showing him as having tyrannical motivations since the time he forged the rings.
Maybe don't criticise the game for misunderstanding things when you yourself are confusing the Three Rings with the other Sixteen, and both with the lesser rings (of which there were many). The Three Rings were made without Sauron's knowledge or involvement, and numerous lesser rings were also created before the Elves mastered the craft of ring-making. Further, while it's true that the primary power of all the rings was preservation, they also "enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching ‘magic’, a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination." It's not too much of a stretch to think Celebrimbor might have fallen to their influence, especially after his time under Sauron's power. Also, Sauron only retrieved 15 of the 16: the Nine he captured immediately, and Celebrimbor revealed the locations of another 6 after succumbing to torture. The 16th had already been given (by Celebrimbor himself) to Durin III, at least according to dwarven tradition. The fact that multiple such traditions exist mean there is still room here for changing the story slightly without "breaking" the lore. The history we know may not be the full truth.
One major critique of this video, Monolith explicitly stated that the lore of SoM/SoW is canon within the LOTR Cinematic Universe, not the books. Basically, the movies are one canon, and the books another. Within the canon of the movies, SoM/SoW isn't lore breaking at all.
Its still not canon with the movies (Balrog in Mordor? Completely non canon, Minas Ithil falling after The Hobbit? Non Canon, Helm Hammerhand and Isildur being wraiths? Non Canon. All are non canon to the movies, fuck outta here with that
It’s not canon in any way shape or form to the books/movies or the upcoming TV series lmao. Monolith can try and say what they want, I’m not even gonna bother checking up on if they actually said that because it doesn’t matter (I’m sure Monolith didnt say anything of the sort because they don’t have the authority to make that sort of statement without permission from the LoTR estate or Peter Jackson). Not to mention that the games CONTRADICT the fucking movies as well if you’ve bothered to watch them. Take this game for what it is, an enjoyable albeit flawed experience. But don’t fool yourself into thinking this ingame universe is in any way shape or form canon to the actual LoTR universe. The movies took certain liberties sure, but they still retained the core plot of the original. This game perverts even the core concepts lol.
@@adittya9002 peter Jackson isn't the one they'd need permission from. They'd need Warner bros permission, which they have. If WB gives Monolith authority to say the games are canon, the games are canon, end of discussion.
It was explained in the in game appendix page for the nazgul, it was stated that not all the nazgul are the original nine men doomed to die and that the others aquired them through "unknown means", helm and isildur could still infact have been made ringwraiths thousands of years later
To me, it makes sense that they can make a new ring because Celebrimbor did originally make the rings of power so its not crazy that he can make another one.
You mean the whole two games ? Don´t get me wrong these games are enjoyable and fun to play but from the lore perspective they make no sense. They changed so much lore that these games might as well take place in any other fantasy universe .
which lore exactly? because this dude is wrong Shelob was a Maiar "Being of divine origin and possessing great power, the Maiar can wander the world unseen or shape themselves in fashion of Elves, Humans or other creatures with these "veils", called fanar. Rarely did the Maiar adopt their visible forms to elves and man, and for that reason, very few of the Maiar have' names in their tongues, and the elves do not know how many of the Maiar exist."
It's never specified which Ungoliant truly was. I personally believe she's an abomination from the Void, but that's one perpetration. She could very well have been a Maia. That's not a head canon that I like, but it's still a possibility. In short, no one is wrong about this, because Tolkien never gave a proper explanation of what Ungoliant was. But if Ungoliant was a Maia, it wouldn't make a difference. Shelob should still look a spider. Ainur when they mated and bore children became bound to the form they wore when those children had been conceived. So yeah, whether Ungoliant was a Maia or not, is rendered moot any ways. Shelob should still look like a bloody spider, and you both are potentially correct.
The Minas Ithil to Minas Morgul transformation was a great battle that we got to play through but I think that they should have at least have made it a flashback battle, maybe playing as celebrimbor or some other character from that time
What's also funny is that the game actually describes how the Witch King betrayed Earnur, the last king of Gondor, but conveniently doesn't mention he did it from Minas Morgul which he already ruled at the time lol
The ridiculous thing they did with Shelob puts me off bothering with this game, regardless of how developed the gameplay is. I also agree about the over the top sorcery of the orcs. Balrogs were servants of Morgoth, not only would orcs be incapable of summoning them, they also would never be trusted to by Sauron. Nazgul don't fit into boring hack and slash settings, and though I actually quite liked the idea of telling the tale of how the kings of men fell under Sauron in Minas Morgul, judging by cutscenes I have scene it's more a case of them being tricked and turned into reckless beserkers by the power of their rings. In the books it's clearly more the case that they slowly withered away, much like Gollum did without becoming a wraith. Also, in both games, the idea of Cerebrimbor himself being a wraith in the first place is pretty stupid really. He was tortured to death and filled with arrows and left on display by Sauron for the elves to see, I don't see why that would turn him into a wraith. As for Isildur being a wraith..... oh dear... just no...
Robert Kelly A straight up Nazgul like they did does not make sense no, but his spirit remaining as some form of Wraith due to the Ring’s corruption would actually make some sense, as a way of showing how the ring poisoned both his body and his very soul
Sauron would probably not have minded the Balrogs, and the Valaraukar would have probably accepted his authority. Sauron ruled Angband while Morgoth was playing jailbird, and the balrogs evidently had no issue with answering to him.
Minas Ithil actually fell (and turned to Minas Morgul) third age 2002, after being laid siege for a total of two years (the beginning of the siege happening in T.A 2000). The “Fall of Minas Ithil” referenced is a battle in S.A 3429, that forced Gondorians out of the city and eventually sparked the War of the Last Alliance, after which they did reclaim the city. Two different battles
I like to think of the games as an alternate timeline in the story. Like the stuff with the hobbit and lord of the rings still happen and all that other lore stuff. Just shadow of war puts its own little twists on the timeline, that break the original, but also explains a lot of things.
1. I will concede the value of this point. 2. Shelob, daughter of Ungoliant works for me as Sauron and numerous maiar all take differing forms and since Luthien, daughter of Merian (A maiair) is mystical then it follows that Shelob should have certain mystical traits passed down genetically from Ungoliant. 3. Orcs are corrupted elves, therefore it follows they should be capable of magic similar to elves and being corrupted it would mean the magic would be necromancy. Also, one must remember that black numenoreans are mystical being taught by Sauron himself, why wouldn't orcs learn such skills? 4. I do disagree with the inclusion of the Nazgul in a disappointing manner especially with the falling of certain legendary men, however I think under creative liberty it is a pretty exciting idea. Although it would have been greater if they had included more Numenoreans and second age character as that would have fitted better in the time line as you mentioned. (Maybe the Nazgul is a mantle handed down and they maybe die or lose their life forces for unknown reasons) 5. I like the idea of Isildur falling but merely out of pure enjoyment of complex character development. Agree with character tension points you make. 6. The siege of Minas Ithil occurred twice, once in second age and again in Third age (TA2000) and it then transformed into Minas Morgul, so yes it doesnt necessarily fit but it can be done. Great video, very much enjoyed your analysis and hope you do not feel offended by my comments, as a fan of both Tolkien and Shadow of series I believe good debate is enjoyable and can be educational for all involved. Links for more info on minas Ithil: lotr.wikia.com/wiki/TA_2000
So I'm trying to keep myself pretty spoiler free so I didn't watch this video. But since you do seem to know a lot about LotR lore along with the past game's lore (I've actually not finished it but I do plan on doing that at some point), I have a bit of a question. Does all the Shadow of games' "break" with the LotR cannon break only with the book's cannon, or does it with the movies' cannon too? I know the two are suppose to be the same, but since the movies aren't allowed to use the Sumarrelian (apologies for butchering the spelling; on my phone right now and don't want to chance wiping what I've written thus far by opening another app to check) and as such the Hobbit trilogy took a lot more liberties with the cannon, I kinda see the two as two different cannons now.
I believe they have made a new story for themselves that can fit in (not canonically) with the rest of tolkiens work by adding details in between differing stories, like the hobbit and lotr time gap is being filled with this conflict but it isnt set in stone as being definitively apart of Tolkiens work, merely inspired in lore and an advancement of certain plot elements. So one could say they break with canon but it doesnt impact the overall story and adds in my mind more enjoyable elements to the overall idea of what Tolkiens middle earth is all about.
Totally agree. You've made some excellent points Hugh. I love LotR and look at Tolkien as a bit of a hero. I'm super happy that great mainstream video games are finally being made within his universe. Of course creative liberties are going to be taken. As an example I will just point out that double jumping doesn't exist in Middle Earth. Its a feature added for the sake of the video game which clearly bends canon. I think purists need to take a step back and realize that this is a video game and in order to create good fun narrative liberties are bound to be taken. So what if Shelob can turn into a woman in this canon. Its great to see her appear as a character that has greater motivations and approachability that a giant spider. Same goes for the wraiths. I'm glad to finally get to see some humanity behind those cowls, even if it doesn't make total sense within the structure of Tolkien's canon.
One thing I'd like an answer on is: Were all Nazgûl created at similar time periods? Because what if they were created with a couple hundred years or so in between each other. //A guy who haven't read the books and is hoping to not get eaten alive by lore buffs.
I believe they all appeared around the same time during the second age but this doesn't necessarily mean they all were turned into wraiths together, unless of course we take PJ's cinematic intro as truth which means they all huddled around a pedestal and picked up rings and fangirled all over them. Thankyou William Rey for the nice comments and I do agree with your points as well except maybe double jumping can exist cause Legolas literally walks and jumps like he's a bloody parkour legend or maybe not.
Monolith is creating its own Lore to *expand* the Tolkien's universe. Peter Jackson didn't do the same thing when he made the movies. I can't remember what he quoted, but I remember he mentioned how "I created what I imagined Middle Earth was." I don't mind the new Lore they are creating, as it would be easier for a more simplified fan to enjoy.
They're not simplifying it, though, they're changing important lore events and characters to a point it's no longer Tolkien's work. Not that I care really, but still, If you're going to change the lore at least make the changes make sense.
Isildur and Helm Hammerhand were born long after the Nazgul were created. They are not, and never will be part of The Nine. Also Shelob is a sexy lady because someone at Warner Bros marketing said tits sell. Almost as well as lootboxes.
there's a difference between adding to or expanding the lore and completely throwing out the lore and trying to retcon everything for your game. Monolith has done the latter. It was forgivable in Shadow of Mordor with Celebrimbor because there was actually a potential lore-friendly explanation. Helm and Isildur becoming ringwraiths however sounds like a bad fanfic.
And Peter Jackson was talking about the visualization of middle earth for the film adaptation. He stuck to the lore for the most part in plot. The death of Saruman and leaving out the scouring of the Shire was the only thing I wish he hadn't altered.
It's established that SoW totally strayed from the lore, and well SoM was something a bit better in reinvention save the complications and conflicts with Necromancy. I've been thinking about it for a while. And now I realize the Ring of Celebrimbor could work for a 3rd entry for The Shadow of Middle-Earth series possibly Shadow of The Ring, that could take place in the later period of Tolkien's unfinished sequels, the years post War of the Rings, one of which is titled The New Shadow.
Also I don’t remember the public being promised a lore perfect game, and while some of these are rather lore breaking the game is not canon so it is just enjoyable in its form of a different middle earth
I think monolith just wanted a nazgul with a hammer, and Helm being the "Hammer-Hand" makes him the obvious choice no matter how lore breaking it may be
Actually I think having this kind of "none canon" story added onto Tolkien's world fits in with what he was trying to do with his world. Tolkien wasn't a "fantasy" writer in the way we understand the genre now, instead he was a scholar of mythology and folklore; what he tried to do with his world wasn't to create a 100% coherent fantasy world, rather he tried to create his own mythology so that he can craft his own epic saga(s) in - in the tradition of Anglo Saxon and Germanic Epics. If you look at traditional epics of all cultures, they take the basic mythological world and build their story within it - but the story of the particular saga takes precedence over perfect continuity. Often you get contradictions and alternative narratives of how events went down - and that is the case in Tolkien's writings as well. I think Tolkien would have been chuffed that someone was creating a new saga utilising his mythology - whether or not he would have been impressed by the story is another matter...
I agree man, I fucking love the story of this game. Finally there is a good fucking game based on the world of Middle-Earth and people try to ruin it with lore issues.. "Its not canon" has never sounded more annoying
I mean, there is middle earth conquest which doesnt break the lore, but is still good. However this isnt canon though, it ruined itself by fucking up the lore with bullshit. J.R.R tolkien would most likely hate this and his son already does hate most adaptations of his fathers works.
Levi Ackerman Does not matter at all. Tolkien was an awful storyteller. The books are some of the worst written shite pieces ever. The framework is superb however, so i like what more talented people are doing with it.
This is the kind of lore breaking that really doesn't bother me, if only amazon had done a show based on this game....it would've been far better than the rings of power.
I would have liked it if this games story was actually the lore of the main story arc. It's so damn interesting. I am dying to see sequel as calibrimbor escapes after blade of galadriel DLC.
you forget the detail of baranor's character that in gondor there are no men of color that the books do not even mention that among them there have even been, because that is a mistake in terms of the history of the peoples of middle earth.
what? really? that kinda takes away from the movies the climax of "no man can kill a nazgul" as Eowyn kills him to his surprise being a woman..if 2 nazgul where women already then he wouldn't be surprised of woman warriors..
The inclusion of the nazgul COULD have been really exciting if handled better. Since only two were ever named by Tolkien, monolith had the creative freedom to come up with cool backstories for the other seven. But No. They casually drop isildurs name in for a bit of tension. One of the most legendary human kings is now a wraith? Come on monolith..
meh legendary... Isildur is overrated. He was merely lucky and then threw away the chance to win the war once and for all. If Sauron made him a Nazgul canonically I wouldn't have cared less
Haven't played the game but in the movies at least he is simply shot by Orcs and loses the ring. I thought you were supposed to slip into the shadow world like Frodo would have, had Elrond not healed him.
Frodo was "slipping into the shadow" because he got stabbed with a morgul blade. And to be fair to Isildur, he only dies that death after fleeing rather than being slaughtered with the rest of his men who were massively outnumbered by orcs.
I'm a die hard fan of Tolkien Universe and this is NOT CANNON! These changes were created to make the campaign more dramatic! Fans shouldn't be upset, I enjoyed the game too much same with Shadow of Mordor
Shelob wasn’t considered as a shape-shifter originally, but neither was Ego originally considered the father of Star-Lord. People change the lore of certain things to make their product of passion possible. That goes for full fledged releases and fan fictions.
In an interview Monolith said “like Peter Jackson said that he wasn’t making a copy paste of the book into a movie he was making a good movie based off the book as books and movies are very different thing and that Monolith was doing that but with a game” it’s also a NON-canon GAME
Honestly I would have preferred it if they just broke the lore completely and changed the ending of LOTR, wouldn't bother me since the games not canon.
In 3429 S.A. Minas Ithil is conquered by Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance, but it was taken back in 3434 S.A. by the Last Alliance, prior to the last battle at Mount Doom. It was besieged by the Nazgul in 2000 Third Age and taken in 2002 T.A. After that the Witch-King turned Minas Ithil to Minas Morgul and made it his "home" (because he already lost his "old home" Angmar). Tolkin created the Nazgul to have no identity, so they could appear as like "faceless ghosts", and so everybody knows, that humans should never get their hands on a ring of power, because then they would share the fate of the Nazgul. It began to corrupt Isildur, it changed Boromir and so on.
The sixth item isn't lore breaking at all, you should probably review the actual history of Minas Ithil. The short version: Yes, Sauron captured it in the Second Age, but his hold on the city was broken only two years later, and then soon after he was defeated by the Last Alliance. He didn't remove the Palantir from the city at this time either, and it didn't become Minas Morgul until it was retaken again by the in the Third Age.
No one ever said that the Shadow of War ring was immune to any corruption, what was only mentioned was that the ring was immune to Sauron's infuence, nothing more, nothing less.
I'll tell you the most Lore-Breaking fact of them all. The fact that you can dominate Orcs and Uruks and Trolls, to fight for you aka "The Good Side" is absolutely mad..
well its more of a lesser evil then good as both Talion and Celebrimbor are both driven by the need for revenge and see them as merely tools Celebrimbor is the worse as he is not only using Talion as shown in shadow of mordor but betrays and abandons him when he finds what he thinks is a better host
I have explaination for nazgul crap: so after blade of Galadrial came out people began playing and I used a mythical device called youtube to watch them. And in one of the cutcenes it showed two ladies killing a nazul and they took it's ring and got corrupted. So what I am saying is that there has been more nazgul than we thought.
There's one more that you missed out among possibly many, is that Sauron lost the ability to shapeshift after the One Ring was cut off from his hand. In fact, he couldnt take physical form leave alone shapeshifting.
"6 time shadow of war broke the law" I don't follow laws in Shadow of War it's all about murdering to survive and intimidating uruk to join my revolution
"Its disrespectful to the lore!" screams the lotr elitist all while completely ignoring the fact that both installments are non-canon. Because apparently, to these socratic elitists, everything lotr-related in the media **MUST** adhere to how tolkien imagined it to be without any deviation or compromise.
The Witch King actually lays siege to Minas Ithil in TA2000 and takes control of it in TA2002, The city is built by Numenoreans in SA3320 who escaped the sinking of their island. The city also had the first White Tree. I'm not a die hard fan but I found all that information for about 5 minutes and I'm agitated that the devs didn't give attention to the timeline.
See thing is you could easily make a game similar to the Shadow of Mordor without infringing on the lore. People get annoyed because such massive alterations to theme and characters show at best laziness in examining the source material and at worst outright contempt for it. I guess Monolith's writers thought they knew Tolkien's work better than he did himself....although given that most reviews say that the story is the weakest part of Shadow of war then I'd say they were ultimately proven wrong.
You hit the nail on the head there. There's plenty of material to use. I understand they can't touch the Silmarillon because of copyright bullshit but there is still plenty of stuff to use. Swap Helm and Isildur with fallen Numenorian kings who worshipped Sauron.
A lot of people dont seem to understand this but this is a video game fan-fiction seperately based off of the main books and everything else meaning its Non-Canon.Its like people writing fanfics of other things but they replace characters with themselves or with the readers. The story wasnt meant to stay 100% true to the lore of LOTR. Basically they created a whole new story with new characters and few changes so i dont know why people shit on Monolith for "not knowing the lore " or some BS like that.
Oh sure people recognize its something akin to fanfiction and people who have ever bothered to look up fanfics of any kind would know that 99 per cent of them are utter trash. It begs the question though of why even keep LOTR in the title? Why not just call it 'Shadow of war' and have it be a completely original IP? It could still have orcs, trolls, dragons and the like but they would have greater scope to spin the story any which way they like and no one would complain. Its clearly what they wanted to do from the start but some exec obviously chimed in and said that attaching a recognizable brand name like LOTR would be more profitable. So we end up with Monolith clearly chaffing to get further and further from the LOTR lore to tell their own tale and unfortunately giving off the impression that they think they could write Tolkien's tale better than the man himself by completely re-inventing his characters and themes. Shadow of war in terms of story is pretty awful in general but the fact that it skirts so close to canon defilement is what ticks off a lot of people the most methinks..but ymmv.
I dont really think its about "more profit" they gave it the Middle earth nametag because IT IS happening in middle earth, there ARE characters from middle earth so if they didnt do that it would be confusing for some while other might complain that they are taking from Tolkien even if they had permission to use his world for their game and so and so.And while 99% fanfics are pretty trashy i would count this one into the 1%. Plus props to Monolith for making the game fun. If they were to remake the game 100% after books there would be a lot less things like graugs, caragors, necromancers, or even the orc types like bard, rhymer. The point is if you want true to lore game go play Battle for middle earth 1 and 2 which are RTS games and not RPGs + base assault/defense so the gameplay and storytelling is also very different.
Arclight104 The game honestly wouldn't be fun if you stuck that closely to the lore. Also we would never get the Nemesis System and that would be a tragedy.
Other detail is the fact that, after losing The One Ring Sauron lost his capability of shapeshifting, being stuck as the big ass armoured dude we get to see on the movies. Also, the Nazgul didn't wear the rings once their transformations concluded, Sauron took them back. And, how did the body of that Balrog end up in Mordor, when ALL the Balrogs died at the War of Wrath except for Durin's Bane.
You pointed out that Hammerhead was born years after the Nazgul were spotted, yes. But the game offers an explanation to this: the rings get passed around a lot and find new owners.
matt roberts Helm didn’t die in his bed as seen in the game. He died standing up, frozen during a siege on the Hornburg. Also we see Celebrimbor with Sauron when he puts the ring on Helm’s hand. The timeline has clearly been messed up. The ringwraiths also don’t get replaced.
As a harcore Tolkien fan, I gotta say, since it's not a NON CANON game, the changes made to the lore for dramatic and entertaining experiences, didin't bothered me much.
Im not saying it's fair or anything, It's just an "If story" of some kind. Just not the canon that I gre reading, and since it's not part of the REAL story, I find no reason to get upset :)
'it's not a NON CANON game'. So it is canon in the middle earth lore?
yes
Emanuel Stenberg well creating a whole New fantasy feanchise with orks and an Elf gohst and magical rings would have been called a lord of the rings Ripoff from the Start.
Same here, as long as people know that the game is just a non canon game with a what if setting I love it
I think you're missing the biggest lore break of them all. Possibly you didn't mention it because you thought it was implied, or because you saw it more as a Shadow of Mordor lore break than Shadow of War. But here it is... Celebrimbor is the ring maker. In the games, Celebrimbor forges all the rings of power, including the one ring. In the actual lore, Sauron is the master smith who forges the one ring. He also teaches the craft of ring forging to the elves, and Celebrimbor is able to forge 3 lesser rings (lesser in power and also in corruption). These are the rings of the elves, worn by Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf. In the books, only Sauron is mighty enough to forge the one ring, and only he is its master. He is a maia who was taught how to craft and forge magic items by the Vala Aulë the smith, who is (more or less) the god of the forge. So he really doesn't need an elf to forge a magic ring for him.
elbentzo you know, i like the game version better, it makes sauron look like more of a parasite with all that thing about fooling celebrimbor to forge the rings. thoughts?
elbentzo, you are absolutely right on this point. 100%. For myself, because I enjoy this series, I have a personal head canon for this critical detail. My theory is that in this timeline (because by this point, this is absolutely an alternate universe) Sauron wanted greater influence over the Three that Celebrimbor forged independently, and dragged him to Mt. Doom to "forge" a greater connection between the One and the Three so that his master plan of controlling all the races would have greater chance of success. However, Celembrimbor stole the One and rebelled, and by the time Sauron retrieved it, the bearers of the Three had already sensed the threat and removed their rings as in canon, foiling Sauron's plan.
It never says or shows Celebrimbor forging the one ring he only improved it which I know is still breaking lore
Sean Francis no, in the original game (SoM) they explicitly say and show that it was Celebrimbor who forged the one ring for Sauron. Not that I mind too much, it was still a very fun game. I'm just saying, if you're going to make a list of places where they broke the lore - this should probably be number one.
felipisr666 I like the Silmarilion version better. Makes Sauron much more powerful and menacing. He is a near god, not just some dude who plays others for fools. But to each his own, I can see how you can have a different idea of Sauron than me.
I don't remember Gandalf buying crates.
That's where he went before Helm's Deep. Ran away, opened a few loot crates with army bonuses and Bob's your uncle.
Buy You fools!
Sorry
How do you think he got that white robe?
He saw how P2W the Balrog was and bought some boxes to make sure he wouldn't have a hard fight ever again.
You Shall not Pass!!!!
Frodo: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - moneyyyy!
Gandalf: Gimme money or no Shire endgame grind for you!
I just kinda ignore the lore and enjoy the game for what it is
That's too hard for me to do... I play the game and while I can enjoy it, it constantly gnaws at me that the game breaks lore often.
Poisonedcrow I know a lot about lotr lore and this game does prickle me sometimes but I can still enjoy it as a great game
What is lore?
Baby don't hurt me,
Don't hurt me,
No more !
U r right
_I broke the lore, and the lore won!_
i fucking knew someone would do this bloody brilliant
Should have dominated the lore. Then you could have commanded it to change the plot.
lol
I was just about to post this, thank you
Breaking the lore, Breaking the lore *guitar shred*
Breaking the lore, Breaking the lore
minor note, but you mentioned that Celebrimdor also forged the one ring to rule them all. The one ring was actually forged by Sauron in secret. And the three rings for the elven kings were forged in secret from Sauron in a way that, while still subject to the one ring, were much less corrupted than the others.
he said that shadow of Mordor revealed that, he never said that it was canon.
Celebrimbor didn't really forge the One Ring. In Shadow of Mordor it's revealed he just added some finishing touches
From what it looks like in the cutscenes of Shadow of Mordor, it almost looked as if Sauron made the One Ring then made Celebrimbor add his own touches to it some point afterwards, while at the same time he secretly did this in an attempt to turn the One Ring on Sauron and take it for himself, only for Sauron to reclaim it as its true master.
@@teleportedbreadfor3days I feel like Celebrimbor being forced to do something to the one ring has to do with Elven rings of power
@@NiCoNiCoNiCola I’m pretty sure he feigned seduction and tricked Sauron into thinking he willingly helped him perfect his One Ring or whatever he was doing. Maybe he was applying the runes.
"Sauron's crack-team of scary mates" Fantastic.
did it break the lore? kinda
does it really matter? not really, the product we got was very enjoyable
Except for the Shadow Wars at the end. That oh-so-enjoyable slog of doing one siege defense (or siege assault if you fail the defense) after another after another ad infinitum.
it was okay but not really as good as the first game was at the time.
BaronVonHoovy My game glitched at the last stage so I didn't get to see the ending
wow that sucks
Zach Buford Kinda is a massive understatement, it broke the lore like a snapped twig. It's like a bad fanfic. BUT you can still enjoy the game, thats fine.
"a good deal of carnan's questline, undoubtely the worst in the game btw" *etariel backstabbing you with Celebrimbor in the background*
I actually liked the idea of more fleshed out backstories for some of the Nazgul. The books only ever told us that most of them were kings who got corrupted by their rings but we never really got to know them.
However, choosing someone like Isildur or Helm Hammerhand as a Nazgul was complete bogus. Sauron never gave a shit about Rohan and he deeply hated Isildur for taking the ring from him.
I can imagine how this idea came about.
Developers sitting in a conference room
Dev 1: Hey, in our sequels let's include the 9
Dev 2: sure! and give them backstories
Dev 3: "Isildur" and "Helm Hammerhand" are mentioned in the movies, how about these names?
Everyone: Great Idea!!!
What is sweeter revenge than making one of your most hated enemies your steadfast ally by corrupting his very soul to the point of no return?
That whole Helm being a Nazgul pissed me off:
-Helm being a Nazgul. When the Nazguls were formed thousands of years before Helm was born
-Celebrimbor being there, alongside Sauron, when Helm received the ring. When Celebrimbor died in the Second age
-Sauron having an elven guise. When he lost the ability to have it for good after Numenor fell.
@@konstantinoskalavrezos5273 Mostly because that's not how the Rings work. You can't put one of them on somebody and they instantly turn into your slave. It takes decades of willing use of the ring. Isildur, in that situation, could simply take it off. Or kill himself. Or use it to fight his way out with the power boost, THEN take it off. The danger was in the temptation to use them for power, and it took centuries for them to work the ill effects.
The instant slavery was only possible if Sauron had the One. And, in this case, he didn't. (And even then... it was possible to take a ring off to escape the enslaving. At least for those wearing the Three.)
@@Swiftbow I find it even funnier how Orcs fished out a giant ass human king clad in heavy metallic armour, but not a small ring that specifically watns to come back to it's master and would easily get into the hands of an orc in a lake like that
If you're mad about Helm and Isildur, wait until you see the "true ending".
they took it down sadly and unless you want spoilers
Low FPS Gaming they took it down, some German UA-cam channel uploaded it.
As Willy Wonka once said: *YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE! GOOD DAY SIR!*
LOL!!!
the way i see it this world is basically lord of the rings the wraith unleashed
Hold on a sec--that whole thing about Isildur and Helm getting turned into wraiths by having rings put on them after death? That means that Sauron knew exactly where Isildur died, because he found his ruddy corpse! And yet he never found the One Ring, despite it being in the lake right next to Isildur's body and presumably calling out to its master?
d2factotum well sauron never recovered the body himself, and orcs dont make the best deep sea divers.
Not to mention, the ring fell of isaldurs finger when he entered the river, it's entirely possible the ring drifted further up the river than isaldurs body, and smeagol found the ring before sauron could dispatch goblins to get it.
The Ring fell to the river. Even if Sauron knew where to look for, it could've been anywhere by the time he recovered. Remember that it took him a couple thousand years to regain some strenght.
Besides, the idea here is that by just putting on the One Ring, even if for a brief period of time, it is enough to grant corruption. That's why all Ringbeares eventually went to Valinor. Isuldur died and his spirit as already enthralled.
Doesn't explain how he got one of the Nine posthumously thou, and whatever happened to it's previous user...
Well, that's kind of the point. What would be left of Isildur's corpse after Sauron reformed himself, which, as you say, took a thousand years or more? Enough to put a ring on it and bring it back as a Ringwraith? It just doesn't make sense either way.
Dude, they are wraiths. They don't have, or need bodies. That's why they are "invisible", they are the physical manifestation of their corrupted spirits.
If, giving Shadow of War's interpretation, Isuldur was corrupted by just using the One Ring once, then what happened to his corpse doesn't really matter.
Question: Can Elves wield magic?
Answer: Yes.
Question: What are Orcs?
Answer: Elves twisted by Morgoth's dark magic and influence.
Question: Can Orcs wield magic?
Answer: No?
Because why?
Daniel Howard You answered yourself in that comment. Morgoth hated elves, and that’s why he kidnapped some and twisted them to be his slaves, the orcs. And besides, they weren’t created with pure intentions and that doubtlessly took away much of what they could have been if a pure-hearted Morgoth had made them with Eru Illuvitar’s blessing.
@@lokki3791 The orcs of Arda are actually one of the smartest races, and posses a love of industry.
@@lokki3791 Intelligence isn't linked to magic in the world of Arda, magic draws from one's Fëa. The Fëa of orcs is weak and tainted, which would be why they can't use magic is my bet
Not all elven factions are the same. Celebrimbor is one of the Noldor, and Noldor are more powerful than e.g. the common wood elves of Mirkwood, owing to their time spent in Valinor. Of course it's nowhere close to how Tolkien envisioned the whole thing, but it's definitely nowhere near as egregious as some of the things listed here either.
Because they are twisted
Gandalf actually says, in the extended edition of the Fellowship of the Ring, that he studied orc magic. It might just be a movie thing but it’s at least mentioned.
It's so laughable when people talk about these 2 videos games in relation to the original Arda Legendarium created by JRR Tolkien! Obviously, they are not set in that universe but the Arda Legendarium of the live-action 'The Hobbit' & 'The Lord of The Rings' film trilogies instead!
@@Optimegatrongodzilla The movies didn't make Isuildur or Helm into Nazgul... You can talk about taking liberties in the movies but Christ man, don't cherry pick.
@@dr.feelgoodmalusphillips2475 They never said in the movies that that didn't happen though, so, that opened the door for Monolith to add to the mythos that Peter Jackson & Philippa Boyens created for their film adaptations of Tolkien's material.
I agree with pretty much everything here, and there are other moments you have not mentioned as well, some pedantic fans might get really upset.
But I just wanted to say, please don't. As a whole and aside microtransactions, this is a very solid, fun game. Monolith never promised a "by the book" adaptation, and basic mechanics of Nemesis and siege would never allow that anyway. Still, writers did a great job of moderately molding the lore and making new one, so you could play a fun game about different aspects of Mordor and Middle-earth, and they would still seem legitimate. Both those that never read Tolkien and die hard fans can enjoy this game, on condition that they don't take it *really* seriously lore-wise. I mean, running around Mordor with an elf wraith inside you, meeting Shelob (although it would be cooler if she was always a spider, think about people with arachnophobia), seeing similar-yet-different culture among orcs, who sing and drink and discuss and stuff (rather than just abstract evil army), are all so fun and cool and you would not be able to do that if all LotR games were 100% faithful. I think fun and variability outweighs the need of some people to say "hey they fucked up book lore"
Best comment I've seen on this video, or any video on this game really
I've never read the books or watch the movies myself but I love this game and because of that I kind of want to watch the movies then maybe even read the books
You really should. One thing is certain, Lord of the Rings is one of pylons, staples of fantasy genre. It would never have gotten so much praise and popularity if it wasn't good anyway. It's a huge, detailed saga that makes simple "good vs evil" trope come alive through a big detailed world and plethora of interesting, relatable and different characters and well knit story that is fun to follow. Assuming one does not have allergy to reading/fantasy, probably every man should read the trilogy.
And even if you don't, LotR movie trilogy is just as good as popular, naturally making some adjustments but still doing great justice to the books as much as a movie could have. Surely you can find few hours for simple to watch and understand, fun movies that immerse you in the books atmosphere correctly.
TL;DR don't just want to watch the movies, watch them. And afterwards you will likely make up your mind whether you want the books or not
Lore trumps everything for me. Fun and variability are irrelevant at the end of the day if the product isn't lore friendly, at least when it comes to Tolkien's works.
k
lore break: the hammer of sauron was easier to defeat than sauron himself
This game was amazing. Loved the story, music, gameplay and new upgrade system.
To be fair Shelob is a shape changing entity, much like gandalf took the form of a human when he came to middle earth, Shelob took the form of a demon spider.
Haaaaaaaaaaaaave you played the "Blade of Galadriel" DLC? Enjoy the asian ring wraith.
Tybalt S I assume they are from Khand buddy, Games workshop gave Khand a Chinese vibe in their Khand models for their tabletop game so I guess that’s where they got the inspiration from, that’s also where Suladân comes from too... though he isn’t a Nazgûl, just a king of Harad
Ah yes, khamul who has existed since the hobbit films.... What's the issue with an Asian ring wraith?
@@pepebabushki9376 because those two broke control of Sauron, even though Sauron should have full control over them. Two Asian ladies also apparently killed two Nazguel as well, which I call bullshit on.
Pretty sure Khamul the Easterling was the only one Tolkein ever named, and with the title 'the Easterling' something tells me he wasn't from Europe.
Honestly Khand always gave a middle eastern /Turko-Persian vibe to me not Chinese, it's like they skipped a whole region for this to work.
I'm fairly certain that Minas Ithil fell twice in the lore, the first time in the war against Sauron shortly after the fall of Numenor and the second time after the Gondorian kin-strife
Actually, the second time was shortly after the elves and men of Gondor destroyed thwWitch Kings realm of Angmar. Later on, he would gather all nine ring-wraiths and take Minas Ithil. It's still several centuries before the game takes place though
The Isildur and Helm thing, while kinda cool and obviously put in to rope some fans in....was completely insane and I can't believe they got the go-ahead for that. I wont even mention the Shelob being Sauron's lover paradox or her inclusion in general. I would have found it interesting though if due to Talion's fall to becoming a wraith she was permanetly transofrmed into a spider and her mind slowly drained away into the version we know from the movies.
The Nazgul can add more to their ranks its is stated that both king and man can fall into the servitude of becoming a nazgul as long as Sauron demands it.
So even if he was not born at the time they where spotted they added more to their ranks.
Sauron can add or remove who he pleases.
Not every nazgul were “created” at the same time. The which king being the first. In the eltarial dlc we saw 2 nazgul being proper killed and being replaced by the 2 sisters. So it’s entirely possible that helm could be a nazgul,
2:57 actually u are correct there. I dont remember what type of spirit took the form of a spider that laid the eggs off Shelob, but she actually cant take the form of a human
The only part of the game that truly broke the lore was that Celebrombor crafted the rings when he only really made the three elven rings and the new ring.
Talion will alwyas be canon in my heart.
Same buddy
Edit: The corrupted gravewalker with the purest heart in all of middle earth
Me too
its a non canon game. so like it didnt break lore because it was never lore. soo...yea
How could isildur be one of the 9 when he stole the 1 ring AFTER sauron corrupted the 9 LOL
According to the game some of the 9 get replaced so Isildur replaced one. What doesn't make sense, however is that Sauron hated Isildur because he is the one resposible for his fall. Personally i would have prefered a game about what Aragorn did before the events of the LotR since that way, they wouldn't have had to mess with the lore.
Stefan Blumberg But Aragorn was an already flushed out character. They wanted to make a new story
As far as I know they have not told us about when he went to Umbar or the Easterlings or Harad. He is my favourite character and I don't feel like he is that flushed out. even a game about the Fall of Numenor, the wars against Melkor or the last Alliance would be epic. There are so many storys in Tolkins lore that they could have done instead of making a new story.
I think the Tolkein estate still owns the rights to the relevant lore like the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales.
kiwipile oh
Not to put to fine a point on it, but lets be honest. The whole game is lore-breaking.
Wraiths do NOT posses people, they kill them and drain their life. They do not retain their personalities either, no matter what race they are or how important they were in life. the whole franchise would have J.R.R. Tolkien screaming in rage for days if he saw it.
But its a game. Enjoy it for what it is.
That really depends the type of person he is. I know personally I wouldn’t mind if a game took a world I created and changed it as long as it was amazing and made it clear that it wasn’t canon. This game has done both
Your Lord and Savior - Balrog No it hasn't, they keep attempting to justify that the game is still mostly lore friendly from what I've seen. He also didn't seem to happy when people adapted his works to fit their own ideas.
Tolkien was extremely particular about his work. When they made the 1st LOTR, Hobbit Movies/Cartoon he was so appalled by it that he refused to sell the rights to his other works. BTW this is why we don't have movies about the 1st and 2nd age.
Extremeredfox Tolkien was a bit dead by the time of the movies.
Ray Mobley, My mistake. Christopher Tolkien who more or less controls the Estate until he dies was appalled by the 2000's films. He said he wouldn't sell the rights to Tolkien's other work.
What strikes me a lot in this game is the fact that you can win faces a balrog. Even Gandalf is afraid fighting it, and in this game, you do it so easily...That's a balrog ! A creation a Morgoth, not just a pitty pet !
As a hardcore shadow of war fan that bought the gold edition I must say “Only six?!”
As far as I remember it was never specified that Shelob was only a spider. To be fair, I don't mind that part.
At least Monolith did not said: Rewritting Middle-Earth in way Tolkien was never able to
Yeah, it was lore breaking but damm also hella fun
I know I am really late to the party, but I would like to add something. According to Tolkien none of the Ringwraiths were in possession of the rings of power, Sauron had them all. The rings were use to corrupt them, but it never stated explicitly that any of them men actually wore them.
Most of the people who played the game are casual fans of the LOTR movies/books. As one of them, I didn't even really notice half of these my first time through and I could have totally bought all of it. If that's what they were going for, they definitely nailed it. They did have to make a compelling game set in a well established universe with it's own lore after all. People can be free to interpret books as they will and often do with anything that is not said explicitly by an author.
Where did Tolkien ever say Shelob WASN'T a woman who then later chose to be a giant spider or that Ringwraiths can't be replaced with other people posthumously?
where did Tolkien write that Aragorn wasn't a jedi? where did Tolkien write that Sauron wasn't really an Alien from Mars in hiding? where did Tolkien say that Peter Parker wasn't the one who found the ring before Gollum?
I can go on for hours... point is your argument is very weak at best.
If anybody made a StarWars and LOTR crossover, I'd make the same argument. Art can be interpreted in an endless number of ways.
HAHAHAHA then in my mind you've helped me prove it's a terrible argument. Art is nonsense, at least in modern times, that's what I learnt at art school, I remember my teacher would say "if you want to be a politician come to an art school because we'll teach you how to bullshit properly."
(Before I start, I enjoyed the game. I only dislike people defending massive breaks from the lore as something that actually makes sense and should be the new lore)
Well.... Shelob was the child of Ungoliant, the orginial Giant Spider, neither Ungoliant or Shelob has ever been mentioned to have shapeshifting powers as I can recall (though it has been almost a decade since I read the Silmarillion). All spiders descended from Ungoliant, which was a creature even the valar and maiar didn't know the origins of, but they theorised it was born from pure darkness.
Basically, all Shelob is, is a fat spider born from the original, most evil, biggest and fattest spider. The "it never said it wasn't possible in the books" is a silly argument, you could use that to argue that Aragorn can shapeshift into a rainbow coloured flying pig.
That being said, I don't mind Shelob in the game too much personally. The Isildur and Hammerhand thing is more annoying because it feels so lazy and it's so unnecessary.
Saruman: "Sauron has regained much of his former strength. He cannot yet take physical form, but his spirit has lost none of its potency.".
Yet in Shadow Of War we see Sauron take to physical form plenty of times. This is one of the big lore breakers to me. It defeats the purpose of him being detached from the ring.
Late asf but he has a body in the LOTR movies. Aragon uses the Palantir to threaten him and you see Sauron hold up his Palantir, using his armoured body. It makes sense that Sauron wouldn't show Saruman the whole truth since he is the deceiver
@@AlexS-nx2oh I also think the 'not being able to take physical form' thing is film only. In the books, it is implied he still has a physical form, he just never shows up. Though he should be stuck in his 'Dark Lord' form at this point.
I'm actually fine with the ending. Only 2 of the Nazgul were ever named (witch king of angmar and his second in command). Who says Talion couldn't have been one of them?
Sauron forged his own ring of power by the way, the elves didn't help him, he literally forged the One ring in SECRET, nobody knew about it, until it was waaaaaaay to late.
When we're talking about the wraiths, lets also mention Suladan, proclaimed wraith by monolith, but also a present general of the southrons at the Battle of the pelennor fields
if a king were to manage a successful kill of a nazgul and keep the ring, would it be a stretch to say he would replace him and become nazgul himself?
If only that were so simple, but unfortunately, as Tolkien wrote it, the Nazgul are basically indestructible as long as the One Ring exists and Sauron grows stronger as Gandalf said:
"You cannot destroy Ringwraiths like that,' said Gandalf. `The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him."
Nazgul grow stronger as Sauron does, he can empower them additionally. It requires a rare special kind of weapon to even harm them since ordinary weapons disintegrate upon touching them (at least Witch-king but most likely all):
"Look!' he [Strider] cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. 'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.'"
With the Nine Rings it is actually an interesting thing that it appears Sauron after losing the One, took the Nine rings from Nazgul and kept them himself (probably insurance against theoretical loss of control if someone were to claim the Ruling Ring). I other words the Nazgul would not have the rings with them.
fantasywind The Barrow blades disintegrate if they hit a Nazgûl because Merry's actually did. The quote you gave of Strider is saying that Frodo's attack missed.
Yeah...and there is also stated "all blades perish that pierce that dreadful king", which definitely means that weapons used against them are destroyed and Nazgul can't be really slain by them, even when pierced. And only the Barrow Downs blades are capable of really harming them, since they were made specifically for that purpose, "wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor." It appears that even when used on Barrow-wights the blades might be damaged since blade Frodo uses to hack wight's arm is broken.
What Tolkien meant to portrait is what the people of Middle Earth THOUGHT about the Nazguls. Case in point, the Witch King WAS KILLED by a normal blade. Nazguls were all smoke and mirrors, their main weapon was the dread they brought with their names.
Yeah after the MAGICAL BLADE did it's damage:
"But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.
'Éowyn! Éowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang."
...
"Then he looked for his sword that he had let fall; for even as he struck his blow his arm was numbed, and now he could only use his left hand. And behold! there lay his weapon, but the blade was smoking like a dry branch that has been thrust in a fire; and as he watched it, it writhed and withered and was consumed.
So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."
Besides both 'enchanted' blade of Merry and Eowyn's ordinary sword got destroyed, hence Aragorn's words "all blades perish that pierce that dreadful king" are true in the universe, a knowledge gained by thousands of years of encountering this menace. Characters in story may have limited knowledge of certain things but others are proved to be true statements. Just as there was knowledge of how to deal with dark magic of morgul-knife to prevent victim from turning into a wraith, in Elrond's head, there was some knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of Nazgul gained by painful experience. Indeed their great weapon was fear, but they had other strengths and powers.
I actually like that they changed it. It feels good see something else besides the main story line. This video sounds like he just didn't like the game and was mad about how they did things. Also if it's not canon what does matter if they broke lore.
yeah this guy just sounds like a nerd
Honestly i think it easily can be lore to an extent as tolkien has been dead for 47 years so honestly no one tell me whats canon and whats not anymore
Weak ass lotr fans here
@@IcyTorments Wow someone doesn't read books it seems
Actually, the only bad part about Helm is in fact the timeline error. He was alive when Celebrimbor and Sauron came with the ring and as we all know, he willingly accepted the ring and it's power
The ring was never "free of corruption." It may be free from Sauron, but that idea of it being pure was used to trick Talion, until the end of the game, where Talion realizes what Celebrimbor is doing. Also pretty sure Shelob became a spider after being betrayed by Sauron.
Another point I'll add: the game seems to fundamentally misunderstand why the lesser rings were even created in the first place. The Elves did not create them to bring "order" to the peoples of Middle-earth, as Celebrimbor says after the Helm Hammerhand flashback. The Elves created them with the power to *preserve*--to prevent change, to decelerate what they viewed as decay. Being immortal, the Elves wanted to shape their environments to be long-lasting, and to that end, they planned to keep and use the rings themselves. Sauron--who yes, took on a fair physical form and called himself Annatar--helped Celebrimbor forge the rings with another secret purpose in mind: domination (of the Elves in particular). He made sure each of the lesser rings was crafted in a way that their holders could be controlled by the holder of the One Ring to rule them all, which he crafted secretly in Mordor. Indeed, the holder of the One Ring could perceive and control the very thoughts of people who held lesser rings. But when Sauron put on the One Ring, the Elves sensed what he was trying to do, and they immediately took the lesser rings off their fingers. Sauron hadn't expected this. Enraged, he sent an army to destroy Celebrimbor's home and retrieve the lesser rings. He succeeded in retrieving 16 lesser rings; 3 evaded him and were sent to other Elves, and Celebrimbor refused to reveal their locations. Sauron then killed Celebrimbor, and only THEN did he start distributing the 16 lesser rings he had retrieved--7 to Dwarves, 9 to Men. He figured that he might not be able to use the One Ring to dominate Elves who held lesser rings, but he might be more successful in dominating the minds of Dwarves and Men. He was only partially correct. The Dwarves were too hardy and could not be dominated. But the nine Men were indeed dominated, and they eventually became the ringwraiths--the Nazgul. Turning into wraiths was a side-effect of the lesser rings' power to preserve--the rings "preserved" their holders as wraiths.
The game drastically changes all of this. There is no hint that any of the lesser rings was created to preserve; they are only shown as instruments of domination, even when Celebrimbor and Annatar first made them.
But... they _were_ instruments of domination? Just because Sauron told them the rings would preserve things (which, you know... they also did, considering the Ringwraiths are still alive-ish) doesn't mean that was their primary purpose. Why would we see their fake, purported abilities (long after the original deception, when it might have mattered), when the game is focused on the domination aspect... which they also had? I'd hardly call that a drastic change, simply a tonal shift.
In The Silmarillion and his letters, Tolkien stated that the Elves created the lesser rings with the purpose of preservation. Sauron worked with Celebrimbor to make 16 of the lesser rings, and he secretly had other purposes (domination) in mind when he was helping craft them--these 16 rings he later stole from Celebrimbor and further tampered with them before distributing them to Dwarves and Men. So yes, because of Sauron's involvement, these 16 rings could be used to both preserve and to dominate. But that was entirely because of Sauron's meddling. The Elves' motivation for creating the rings was to preserve their own realms. The 3 other lesser rings--those that were eventually held by Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf--never were touched by Sauron, and thus they could not be used for domination.
The drastic change the game makes is declaring that a power-crazy Celebrimbor created the rings with Annatar/Sauron to "bring order" to Middle-earth, and it has the two of them distributing the rings to others (like Helm Hammerhand) to achieve this purpose. This is far from a tonal shift. In the books, the Elves never wanted to use the rings to dominate others, and they certainly never distributed the rings to other races. The game changes the Elves' fundamental purpose for the rings, and along with it, the entire history of the rings.
You kind of answered your own point. It's Celebrimbor who does these things, not the 'Elves' as a race. The games did an excellent job of showing us his slow slide into power-mad control-freak - from being initially deceived by Annatar, to the realisation of betrayal, his war against Sauron (in both lives) and his eventual betrayal of Talion. (And yes, I know that in the books Celebrimbor had nothing to do with the 16 lesser rings and delegated the task to Eregion smiths - but if we're not accepting the premise that Celebrimbor had a direct hand in all of the rings of power as the game shows, then all the other lore bending become somewhat irrelevant anyway)
All i'm saying is that the game didn't (purposefully or otherwise) 'misunderstand' the secondary purpose of the rings, it just chooses to focus on their primary purpose as dictated by Sauron's corrupting influence as it's 1) more relevant 2) allows for the otherwise difficult to implement gameplay aspects and 3) makes for a better story.
But yes, I will concede that the somewhat unexplained motivations behind presenting the Kings of men with rings of power _with_ Sauron (as opposed to that coming after Sauron realised they wouldn't work on Elves) is a bit confusing. I assume that Annatar explained some kind of plan that made sense at the time (He's the Deceiver, who knows?)
The game indicates that domination was a motive not just Sauron had in making the rings, but also Celebrimbor. After the Helm Hammerhand flashback, Celebrimbor justifies standing by Sauron in distributing the rings to the kings of men because "Those rings were meant to bring order." That's his direct quote, and it indicates that Celebrimbor had a domination motive when he created the rings--well before the game's events. He does also complain that he was "deceived" by Sauron, sure--presumably because Sauron wanted to dominate even him. He then doubles down, consoling Talion by noting that at least this time, "It is not noble men we are dominating, but savage Orcs." So Celebrimbor made the rings "to bring order" to Middle-earth and dominate "the minds of noble men." This is a radical change to the lore. I'd have much preferred if they had maintained the original story and instead showed Celebrimbor falling into a power-crazed state during the game rather as he gained more and more power--rather showing him as having tyrannical motivations since the time he forged the rings.
Maybe don't criticise the game for misunderstanding things when you yourself are confusing the Three Rings with the other Sixteen, and both with the lesser rings (of which there were many). The Three Rings were made without Sauron's knowledge or involvement, and numerous lesser rings were also created before the Elves mastered the craft of ring-making. Further, while it's true that the primary power of all the rings was preservation, they also "enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching ‘magic’, a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination." It's not too much of a stretch to think Celebrimbor might have fallen to their influence, especially after his time under Sauron's power.
Also, Sauron only retrieved 15 of the 16: the Nine he captured immediately, and Celebrimbor revealed the locations of another 6 after succumbing to torture. The 16th had already been given (by Celebrimbor himself) to Durin III, at least according to dwarven tradition. The fact that multiple such traditions exist mean there is still room here for changing the story slightly without "breaking" the lore. The history we know may not be the full truth.
SHADOW OF WAR IS NON CANON, IT DOESNT MATTER IF THEY DONT FOLLOW LORE
it's set in middle earth, therefore it matters... to me at least and from the other comments I've read it also seems to matter to many other people.
@sakor88 the developers never claimed it followed the lore. In fact they were quite clear that it is their own story. It was lore friendly not lore.
One major critique of this video, Monolith explicitly stated that the lore of SoM/SoW is canon within the LOTR Cinematic Universe, not the books. Basically, the movies are one canon, and the books another. Within the canon of the movies, SoM/SoW isn't lore breaking at all.
Its still not canon with the movies (Balrog in Mordor? Completely non canon, Minas Ithil falling after The Hobbit? Non Canon, Helm Hammerhand and Isildur being wraiths? Non Canon. All are non canon to the movies, fuck outta here with that
It’s not canon in any way shape or form to the books/movies or the upcoming TV series lmao. Monolith can try and say what they want, I’m not even gonna bother checking up on if they actually said that because it doesn’t matter (I’m sure Monolith didnt say anything of the sort because they don’t have the authority to make that sort of statement without permission from the LoTR estate or Peter Jackson). Not to mention that the games CONTRADICT the fucking movies as well if you’ve bothered to watch them.
Take this game for what it is, an enjoyable albeit flawed experience. But don’t fool yourself into thinking this ingame universe is in any way shape or form canon to the actual LoTR universe. The movies took certain liberties sure, but they still retained the core plot of the original. This game perverts even the core concepts lol.
@@adittya9002 peter Jackson isn't the one they'd need permission from. They'd need Warner bros permission, which they have. If WB gives Monolith authority to say the games are canon, the games are canon, end of discussion.
It was explained in the in game appendix page for the nazgul, it was stated that not all the nazgul are the original nine men doomed to die and that the others aquired them through "unknown means", helm and isildur could still infact have been made ringwraiths thousands of years later
To me, it makes sense that they can make a new ring because Celebrimbor did originally make the rings of power so its not crazy that he can make another one.
You mean the whole two games ?
Don´t get me wrong these games are enjoyable and fun to play but from the lore perspective they make no sense. They changed so much lore that these games might as well take place in any other fantasy universe .
which lore exactly? because this dude is wrong
Shelob was a Maiar
"Being of divine origin and possessing great power, the Maiar can wander
the world unseen or shape themselves in fashion of Elves, Humans or
other creatures with these "veils", called fanar. Rarely did the Maiar
adopt their visible forms to elves and man, and for that reason, very
few of the Maiar have' names in their tongues, and the elves do not know
how many of the Maiar exist."
Ryan Rule Shelob wasn't a Maia. She is one child of Ungoliant and Ungoliant wasn't a Maia or a Vala.
After a while, Ungoliant couldn't change her form, neither her children.
It's never specified which Ungoliant truly was. I personally believe she's an abomination from the Void, but that's one perpetration. She could very well have been a Maia. That's not a head canon that I like, but it's still a possibility. In short, no one is wrong about this, because Tolkien never gave a proper explanation of what Ungoliant was. But if Ungoliant was a Maia, it wouldn't make a difference. Shelob should still look a spider. Ainur when they mated and bore children became bound to the form they wore when those children had been conceived. So yeah, whether Ungoliant was a Maia or not, is rendered moot any ways. Shelob should still look like a bloody spider, and you both are potentially correct.
@@ryanrule8583 shelob isn't a Maia she's the first daughter of ungoliant who was a maia
The Minas Ithil to Minas Morgul transformation was a great battle that we got to play through but I think that they should have at least have made it a flashback battle, maybe playing as celebrimbor or some other character from that time
What's also funny is that the game actually describes how the Witch King betrayed Earnur, the last king of Gondor, but conveniently doesn't mention he did it from Minas Morgul which he already ruled at the time lol
The ridiculous thing they did with Shelob puts me off bothering with this game, regardless of how developed the gameplay is. I also agree about the over the top sorcery of the orcs. Balrogs were servants of Morgoth, not only would orcs be incapable of summoning them, they also would never be trusted to by Sauron. Nazgul don't fit into boring hack and slash settings, and though I actually quite liked the idea of telling the tale of how the kings of men fell under Sauron in Minas Morgul, judging by cutscenes I have scene it's more a case of them being tricked and turned into reckless beserkers by the power of their rings. In the books it's clearly more the case that they slowly withered away, much like Gollum did without becoming a wraith.
Also, in both games, the idea of Cerebrimbor himself being a wraith in the first place is pretty stupid really. He was tortured to death and filled with arrows and left on display by Sauron for the elves to see, I don't see why that would turn him into a wraith. As for Isildur being a wraith..... oh dear... just no...
Amen.
Robert Kelly A straight up Nazgul like they did does not make sense no, but his spirit remaining as some form of Wraith due to the Ring’s corruption would actually make some sense, as a way of showing how the ring poisoned both his body and his very soul
Sauron would probably not have minded the Balrogs, and the Valaraukar would have probably accepted his authority. Sauron ruled Angband while Morgoth was playing jailbird, and the balrogs evidently had no issue with answering to him.
Oh man that would suck IF IT WAS CANON
As far as I know, Celebrimbor’s body was used like a weird banner for Sauron’s armies, and used to demoralize Elrond and his army.
Minas Ithil actually fell (and turned to Minas Morgul) third age 2002, after being laid siege for a total of two years (the beginning of the siege happening in T.A 2000). The “Fall of Minas Ithil” referenced is a battle in S.A 3429, that forced Gondorians out of the city and eventually sparked the War of the Last Alliance, after which they did reclaim the city. Two different battles
So to summarize: this battle was not moved thousands of years forward in time.
I like to think of the games as an alternate timeline in the story. Like the stuff with the hobbit and lord of the rings still happen and all that other lore stuff. Just shadow of war puts its own little twists on the timeline, that break the original, but also explains a lot of things.
1. I will concede the value of this point.
2. Shelob, daughter of Ungoliant works for me as Sauron and numerous maiar all take differing forms and since Luthien, daughter of Merian (A maiair) is mystical then it follows that Shelob should have certain mystical traits passed down genetically from Ungoliant.
3. Orcs are corrupted elves, therefore it follows they should be capable of magic similar to elves and being corrupted it would mean the magic would be necromancy. Also, one must remember that black numenoreans are mystical being taught by Sauron himself, why wouldn't orcs learn such skills?
4. I do disagree with the inclusion of the Nazgul in a disappointing manner especially with the falling of certain legendary men, however I think under creative liberty it is a pretty exciting idea. Although it would have been greater if they had included more Numenoreans and second age character as that would have fitted better in the time line as you mentioned. (Maybe the Nazgul is a mantle handed down and they maybe die or lose their life forces for unknown reasons)
5. I like the idea of Isildur falling but merely out of pure enjoyment of complex character development. Agree with character tension points you make.
6. The siege of Minas Ithil occurred twice, once in second age and again in Third age (TA2000) and it then transformed into Minas Morgul, so yes it doesnt necessarily fit but it can be done.
Great video, very much enjoyed your analysis and hope you do not feel offended by my comments, as a fan of both Tolkien and Shadow of series I believe good debate is enjoyable and can be educational for all involved.
Links for more info on minas Ithil: lotr.wikia.com/wiki/TA_2000
So I'm trying to keep myself pretty spoiler free so I didn't watch this video. But since you do seem to know a lot about LotR lore along with the past game's lore (I've actually not finished it but I do plan on doing that at some point), I have a bit of a question. Does all the Shadow of games' "break" with the LotR cannon break only with the book's cannon, or does it with the movies' cannon too? I know the two are suppose to be the same, but since the movies aren't allowed to use the Sumarrelian (apologies for butchering the spelling; on my phone right now and don't want to chance wiping what I've written thus far by opening another app to check) and as such the Hobbit trilogy took a lot more liberties with the cannon, I kinda see the two as two different cannons now.
I believe they have made a new story for themselves that can fit in (not canonically) with the rest of tolkiens work by adding details in between differing stories, like the hobbit and lotr time gap is being filled with this conflict but it isnt set in stone as being definitively apart of Tolkiens work, merely inspired in lore and an advancement of certain plot elements. So one could say they break with canon but it doesnt impact the overall story and adds in my mind more enjoyable elements to the overall idea of what Tolkiens middle earth is all about.
Totally agree. You've made some excellent points Hugh. I love LotR and look at Tolkien as a bit of a hero. I'm super happy that great mainstream video games are finally being made within his universe. Of course creative liberties are going to be taken. As an example I will just point out that double jumping doesn't exist in Middle Earth. Its a feature added for the sake of the video game which clearly bends canon.
I think purists need to take a step back and realize that this is a video game and in order to create good fun narrative liberties are bound to be taken. So what if Shelob can turn into a woman in this canon. Its great to see her appear as a character that has greater motivations and approachability that a giant spider.
Same goes for the wraiths. I'm glad to finally get to see some humanity behind those cowls, even if it doesn't make total sense within the structure of Tolkien's canon.
One thing I'd like an answer on is: Were all Nazgûl created at similar time periods? Because what if they were created with a couple hundred years or so in between each other.
//A guy who haven't read the books and is hoping to not get eaten alive by lore buffs.
I believe they all appeared around the same time during the second age but this doesn't necessarily mean they all were turned into wraiths together, unless of course we take PJ's cinematic intro as truth which means they all huddled around a pedestal and picked up rings and fangirled all over them. Thankyou William Rey for the nice comments and I do agree with your points as well except maybe double jumping can exist cause Legolas literally walks and jumps like he's a bloody parkour legend or maybe not.
Do not come between the Nazgul and his Lore ...
This nazgul lore also affects dain ironfoot in the hobbit dain got his last name by killing azog but azog is alive...
Monolith is creating its own Lore to *expand* the Tolkien's universe.
Peter Jackson didn't do the same thing when he made the movies. I can't remember what he quoted, but I remember he mentioned how "I created what I imagined Middle Earth was."
I don't mind the new Lore they are creating, as it would be easier for a more simplified fan to enjoy.
They're not simplifying it, though, they're changing important lore events and characters to a point it's no longer Tolkien's work.
Not that I care really, but still, If you're going to change the lore at least make the changes make sense.
Isildur and Helm Hammerhand were born long after the Nazgul were created. They are not, and never will be part of The Nine.
Also Shelob is a sexy lady because someone at Warner Bros marketing said tits sell. Almost as well as lootboxes.
Except the "new" lore doesn't seem to reconcile with a lot of the source material, of which there is a lot of.
there's a difference between adding to or expanding the lore and completely throwing out the lore and trying to retcon everything for your game. Monolith has done the latter. It was forgivable in Shadow of Mordor with Celebrimbor because there was actually a potential lore-friendly explanation. Helm and Isildur becoming ringwraiths however sounds like a bad fanfic.
And Peter Jackson was talking about the visualization of middle earth for the film adaptation. He stuck to the lore for the most part in plot. The death of Saruman and leaving out the scouring of the Shire was the only thing I wish he hadn't altered.
It's established that SoW totally strayed from the lore, and well SoM was something a bit better in reinvention save the complications and conflicts with Necromancy. I've been thinking about it for a while. And now I realize the Ring of Celebrimbor could work for a 3rd entry for The Shadow of Middle-Earth series possibly Shadow of The Ring, that could take place in the later period of Tolkien's unfinished sequels, the years post War of the Rings, one of which is titled The New Shadow.
Also I don’t remember the public being promised a lore perfect game, and while some of these are rather lore breaking the game is not canon so it is just enjoyable in its form of a different middle earth
I think monolith just wanted a nazgul with a hammer, and Helm being the "Hammer-Hand" makes him the obvious choice no matter how lore breaking it may be
Actually I think having this kind of "none canon" story added onto Tolkien's world fits in with what he was trying to do with his world. Tolkien wasn't a "fantasy" writer in the way we understand the genre now, instead he was a scholar of mythology and folklore; what he tried to do with his world wasn't to create a 100% coherent fantasy world, rather he tried to create his own mythology so that he can craft his own epic saga(s) in - in the tradition of Anglo Saxon and Germanic Epics.
If you look at traditional epics of all cultures, they take the basic mythological world and build their story within it - but the story of the particular saga takes precedence over perfect continuity. Often you get contradictions and alternative narratives of how events went down - and that is the case in Tolkien's writings as well. I think Tolkien would have been chuffed that someone was creating a new saga utilising his mythology - whether or not he would have been impressed by the story is another matter...
Doesn't matter if it breaks lore, I find it more interesting this way
I agree man, I fucking love the story of this game. Finally there is a good fucking game based on the world of Middle-Earth and people try to ruin it with lore issues.. "Its not canon" has never sounded more annoying
I mean, there is middle earth conquest which doesnt break the lore, but is still good.
However this isnt canon though, it ruined itself by fucking up the lore with bullshit. J.R.R tolkien would most likely hate this and his son already does hate most adaptations of his fathers works.
Levi Ackerman if it’s not canon then why do people care so much? It’s a great game with a good story.
Levi Ackerman Does not matter at all. Tolkien was an awful storyteller. The books are some of the worst written shite pieces ever.
The framework is superb however, so i like what more talented people are doing with it.
MultiFlachzange *LOL* at this
This is the kind of lore breaking that really doesn't bother me, if only amazon had done a show based on this game....it would've been far better than the rings of power.
Make a video about the six times it did NOT brake the lore.
Great game though, 140 hours on record, would recommend.
Impossible
I would have liked it if this games story was actually the lore of the main story arc. It's so damn interesting. I am dying to see sequel as calibrimbor escapes after blade of galadriel DLC.
'I know this game isn't canon but I'm going to now proceed about many things that break the canon'
doiiiiii.
If the game wasn’t so much fun I’d be pissed at the disrespect done to Tolkien’s work
you forget the detail of baranor's character that in gondor there are no men of color that the books do not even mention that among them there have even been, because that is a mistake in terms of the history of the peoples of middle earth.
Bro, Baranor he was born in Umbar as Warad ._.
Wow, Monolith's explanation to Johnny about Shelob actually made me even angrier than I was already.
You also forgot that they made 2 of the Nazgul women! Complete ruined it for me
what? really? that kinda takes away from the movies the climax of "no man can kill a nazgul" as Eowyn kills him to his surprise being a woman..if 2 nazgul where women already then he wouldn't be surprised of woman warriors..
giorgan maca that translation of "no man can kill me" is wrong as women are still part of the race of men so he was killed by a man
The inclusion of the nazgul COULD have been really exciting if handled better. Since only two were ever named by Tolkien, monolith had the creative freedom to come up with cool backstories for the other seven. But No. They casually drop isildurs name in for a bit of tension. One of the most legendary human kings is now a wraith? Come on monolith..
What about the others? I mean, if you name three of them, the least you could do is name the rest of the Nine. Don't do it half-baked.
meh legendary... Isildur is overrated. He was merely lucky and then threw away the chance to win the war once and for all. If Sauron made him a Nazgul canonically I wouldn't have cared less
It seems like a lazy choice compared to all the interesting new characters they’ve come up with.
Haven't played the game but in the movies at least he is simply shot by Orcs and loses the ring. I thought you were supposed to slip into the shadow world like Frodo would have, had Elrond not healed him.
Frodo was "slipping into the shadow" because he got stabbed with a morgul blade. And to be fair to Isildur, he only dies that death after fleeing rather than being slaughtered with the rest of his men who were massively outnumbered by orcs.
I find this better than the original lore
I'm a die hard fan of Tolkien Universe and this is NOT CANNON! These changes were created to make the campaign more dramatic! Fans shouldn't be upset, I enjoyed the game too much same with Shadow of Mordor
Even if the game isn’t accurate. The plot is still really good
lets just say this happens in a different multiverse lol
middle earth - 616 perhaps
It's based in the movie universe I think. That's why it doesn't line up with Tolkien Law
Ok tell me I’m not the only one who would love a game where you play as ringwraith talion during the event of lord of the rings
Shelob wasn’t considered as a shape-shifter originally, but neither was Ego originally considered the father of Star-Lord. People change the lore of certain things to make their product of passion possible. That goes for full fledged releases and fan fictions.
In an interview Monolith said “like Peter Jackson said that he wasn’t making a copy paste of the book into a movie he was making a good movie based off the book as books and movies are very different thing and that Monolith was doing that but with a game” it’s also a NON-canon GAME
*grabs popcorn*
Also, what the hell is Gollum doing in SA 3429?
He got the ring in TA 2463.
The games take place in the Third age though...
Eh, cuz everyone loves Gollum, and he's played by Liam O'Brian you can't go wrong.
Because its non cannon.....
Zogs title is eternal not necromancer
smh, he IS a Necromancer.
Honestly I would have preferred it if they just broke the lore completely and changed the ending of LOTR, wouldn't bother me since the games not canon.
In 3429 S.A. Minas Ithil is conquered by Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance, but it was taken back in 3434 S.A. by the Last Alliance, prior to the last battle at Mount Doom. It was besieged by the Nazgul in 2000 Third Age and taken in 2002 T.A. After that the Witch-King turned Minas Ithil to Minas Morgul and made it his "home" (because he already lost his "old home" Angmar). Tolkin created the Nazgul to have no identity, so they could appear as like "faceless ghosts", and so everybody knows, that humans should never get their hands on a ring of power, because then they would share the fate of the Nazgul. It began to corrupt Isildur, it changed Boromir and so on.
Honestly, I like what they did. Especially with Shelob.
*MAIAN SHELOB IS LOVE. MAIAN SHELOB IS LIFE.*
Yeah, generic sexy lady witch. So inventive.
Well good thing it’s not cannon
The sixth item isn't lore breaking at all, you should probably review the actual history of Minas Ithil. The short version: Yes, Sauron captured it in the Second Age, but his hold on the city was broken only two years later, and then soon after he was defeated by the Last Alliance. He didn't remove the Palantir from the city at this time either, and it didn't become Minas Morgul until it was retaken again by the in the Third Age.
No one ever said that the Shadow of War ring was immune to any corruption, what was only mentioned was that the ring was immune to Sauron's infuence, nothing more, nothing less.
I'll tell you the most Lore-Breaking fact of them all. The fact that you can dominate Orcs and Uruks and Trolls, to fight for you aka "The Good Side" is absolutely mad..
well its more of a lesser evil then good as both Talion and Celebrimbor are both driven by the need for revenge and see them as merely tools Celebrimbor is the worse as he is not only using Talion as shown in shadow of mordor but betrays and abandons him when he finds what he thinks is a better host
is this game series gonna be a star wars force unleashed where its not canon? Thats kinda looking where its going. Still love the game though
Rokar 686 it never was canon, the only thing that's canon are the books
The difference is the Force Unleashed story made a lot more sense
Channing Callahan force unleashed is a pile of rubbish
How are you level 39 doing that quest at the start
007 on the road He probably replayed the mission
I have explaination for nazgul crap: so after blade of Galadrial came out people began playing and I used a mythical device called youtube to watch them. And in one of the cutcenes it showed two ladies killing a nazul and they took it's ring and got corrupted. So what I am saying is that there has been more nazgul than we thought.
There's one more that you missed out among possibly many, is that Sauron lost the ability to shapeshift after the One Ring was cut off from his hand. In fact, he couldnt take physical form leave alone shapeshifting.
"6 time shadow of war broke the law" I don't follow laws in Shadow of War it's all about murdering to survive and intimidating uruk to join my revolution
Well Shelob in human form looks like Stoya if you know what i mean. 😊
"Its disrespectful to the lore!" screams the lotr elitist all while completely ignoring the fact that both installments are non-canon. Because apparently, to these socratic elitists, everything lotr-related in the media **MUST** adhere to how tolkien imagined it to be without any deviation or compromise.
StringStorm And the know what Tolkien would have thought about a game set in his universe because they are such big fans and know everything.
The Witch King actually lays siege to Minas Ithil in TA2000 and takes control of it in TA2002, The city is built by Numenoreans in SA3320 who escaped the sinking of their island. The city also had the first White Tree.
I'm not a die hard fan but I found all that information for about 5 minutes and I'm agitated that the devs didn't give attention to the timeline.
See thing is you could easily make a game similar to the Shadow of Mordor without infringing on the lore. People get annoyed because such massive alterations to theme and characters show at best laziness in examining the source material and at worst outright contempt for it. I guess Monolith's writers thought they knew Tolkien's work better than he did himself....although given that most reviews say that the story is the weakest part of Shadow of war then I'd say they were ultimately proven wrong.
You hit the nail on the head there. There's plenty of material to use. I understand they can't touch the Silmarillon because of copyright bullshit but there is still plenty of stuff to use. Swap Helm and Isildur with fallen Numenorian kings who worshipped Sauron.
A lot of people dont seem to understand this but this is a video game fan-fiction seperately based off of the main books and everything else meaning its Non-Canon.Its like people writing fanfics of other things but they replace characters with themselves or with the readers. The story wasnt meant to stay 100% true to the lore of LOTR. Basically they created a whole new story with new characters and few changes so i dont know why people shit on Monolith for "not knowing the lore " or some BS like that.
Oh sure people recognize its something akin to fanfiction and people who have ever bothered to look up fanfics of any kind would know that 99 per cent of them are utter trash. It begs the question though of why even keep LOTR in the title? Why not just call it 'Shadow of war' and have it be a completely original IP? It could still have orcs, trolls, dragons and the like but they would have greater scope to spin the story any which way they like and no one would complain. Its clearly what they wanted to do from the start but some exec obviously chimed in and said that attaching a recognizable brand name like LOTR would be more profitable.
So we end up with Monolith clearly chaffing to get further and further from the LOTR lore to tell their own tale and unfortunately giving off the impression that they think they could write Tolkien's tale better than the man himself by completely re-inventing his characters and themes. Shadow of war in terms of story is pretty awful in general but the fact that it skirts so close to canon defilement is what ticks off a lot of people the most methinks..but ymmv.
I dont really think its about "more profit" they gave it the Middle earth nametag because IT IS happening in middle earth, there ARE characters from middle earth so if they didnt do that it would be confusing for some while other might complain that they are taking from Tolkien even if they had permission to use his world for their game and so and so.And while 99% fanfics are pretty trashy i would count this one into the 1%. Plus props to Monolith for making the game fun. If they were to remake the game 100% after books there would be a lot less things like graugs, caragors, necromancers, or even the orc types like bard, rhymer. The point is if you want true to lore game go play Battle for middle earth 1 and 2 which are RTS games and not RPGs + base assault/defense so the gameplay and storytelling is also very different.
Arclight104 The game honestly wouldn't be fun if you stuck that closely to the lore. Also we would never get the Nemesis System and that would be a tragedy.
What?" Carnans questline was the best!!
i love klling the balrog and zog
It was drawn out because of the fact that Zog just kept showing up. The Bruz one is drawn out too because of the traps
Other detail is the fact that, after losing The One Ring Sauron lost his capability of shapeshifting, being stuck as the big ass armoured dude we get to see on the movies. Also, the Nazgul didn't wear the rings once their transformations concluded, Sauron took them back. And, how did the body of that Balrog end up in Mordor, when ALL the Balrogs died at the War of Wrath except for Durin's Bane.
You pointed out that Hammerhead was born years after the Nazgul were spotted, yes. But the game offers an explanation to this: the rings get passed around a lot and find new owners.
matt roberts Helm didn’t die in his bed as seen in the game. He died standing up, frozen during a siege on the Hornburg. Also we see Celebrimbor with Sauron when he puts the ring on Helm’s hand. The timeline has clearly been messed up. The ringwraiths also don’t get replaced.
Who cares? It's non-canonical anyway