Accurate. People carry the damn thing around like they glean knowledge by osmosis, but they are really saying they are afraid social progress and change in general. Hate covered by a very thin veneer of religiosity.
indeed. if you try to show an evangelical apologist that their views are not supported by scholarship, you will eventually find that any topic comes down to some critical details. it's all well and good to listen to scholars talk in generalities, and understand the big picture ... but you will need to know details if you have the time and patience to drive an apologetic claim into the ground. if you encountered the common claim that the dead sea scrolls prove the authenticity of daniel, you'd be stumped by the specious half truths of a good apologist if you didn't know the details. this is a great coverage of how the parts of daniel fit together and how the story is informed by the available manuscript fragments; and you're hearing it from people with experience in having the arguments with apologists trying to defend the "traditional" view. [which isn't really traditional, because mainstream scholars dated daniel to 2nd century BC a long time ago. but this recent work puts the cherry on top.] i've known for a long time that the book of daniel is especially devastating to the case of people trying to take the bible at face value and imagine that it proves prophecy, but amateurs can acquire a really solid understanding now. and if any of this is a bit unclear, i've heard kipp explaining daniel on a few different podcasts now and i found it useful to hear it explained in slightly different ways
I really enjoyed this talk. I do wish one thing: they would quote Bible verses more often instead of just saying a reference to what it generally says.
Phillipians 1 vs 6 he who started a good work in you will see it through to completion. All these guys will eventually come back to faith even if it's on their deathbed. Just look up famous atheist last words and moments to see more clear they are in rebellion and God will show them something from their extensive study to bring them back. Whatever you believe about the Bible whatever lies a pastor told you or whatever caused a church hurt or betrayal feeling in the mind will be worked out. Of course the Bible is not flawless and not edited that's stupid in my opinion to say man has sinful nature but we trust his hand in writing editing translation etc. people get hurt when they find something that shows this and feel betrayed. I've come to my own personal conclusion the general message cannot be changed can't take the word out of the word.
@@MrAlepedroza thank you friend. To what do I owe the Honor? I won't waste time on explanation of who I am but I promise you have a wrong idea of me. Tell me have you ever examined anything for yourself or just waste time listening to people talk and give regurgitated information on UA-cam? I'm guessing you don't believe anything or consider yourself educated so let's have your story? I'm no Christian nor am I bound by any religion just an observer
@@adonai136the Bible is not 100 percent perfect because people wrote down what their perception about the world around them was. That doesn’t change the fact that God and only God is perfect. I read about Islam Buddhism and dofferent religion but one thing is for sure true: we have a God who created us, loves us and gave us free will hoping that we follow theway of love This is my belief
@@anikomattison7568 thank you for sharing and your open mind. I have studied many paths myself until I've settled into the vedanta teachings specifically the lineage of sri ramakrishna paramahansa to swami Vivekananda here you find all paths are embraced and are paths to God. I'm always Leary of anyone claiming to have a monopoly on the truth. blessings my friend
I am 75 years old, and as an Episcopalian, have always been taught the the Book of Daniel was written as religious fiction. In high school, I had friends who were taught that the KJV, word for word, punctuation mark per punctuation mark was THEE TRUTH! The Last True, Inerrant, Revelation of God! I can see where if you were taught that to learn decades later, that the Bible was a collection of scrolls, written mostly be men, but probably at least a few women, over 10 or 15 centuries, and was mostly just their opinions about Israel's relationship with God, and their personal experiences with having a relationship with God. And like the AA Big Book: "Take what you can use and leave the rest."
i grew up in the australian equivalent of episcopalian. i stopped believing but still admire the fact that there are churches that can accommodate real scholarship; that can tolerate diverse opinions, and support christian belief without imposing the painful contradictions of bible worship. when i spent a lot of time arguing with evangelicals, i'd reject their claims of having proof, but i wouldn't suggest they give up their belief. i would however suggest they become anglicans
Some of the contents of the Bible seem to narrate Near Death Experiences of the authors, and later added narratives or changes to accomodate the power hunger of controllers of nations.
👑🌍🌍👑🌍 What you were taught in school was the opinions of men. The book of Daniel is carbon dated to the second century BC in the later copy of the GREEK SEPTUAGINT. THAT'S WHY THE PROPHECIES IN THE BOOK OF DANIEL ARE SO ASTOUNDING. THESE GUYS ARE NOW EXPOSED AS KNOW NOTHINGS.
There are people that really need to believe in something to become a better persons. And real knowledge can really damage them,instead of just "showing the truth"
The Bible isn't about making you a better person, its about choosing life everlasting or eternal damnation, and its not works based like every other religion of good deeds out weighing bad deeds.
Two of my favourite scholars, and together they're even better. I have watched some of Dr. K's full courses and they're excellent. I strongly encourage you to do more work on the Old Testament and Talmudic judaism.
The Book of Mormon is kind of a case where a person claimed to "go in the back room of the temple and find a book." It was a hill, not a room in the temple, but the principle is the same. In the 1800s it was a popular literary trope to claim that a book had a mystic origin. Back in the late 1960s there was a poem called "Desiderata" that was associated with a discovery myth. It was supposed to have been found in the wall of an old church. Lots of people believed the myth, even though the poem was from a published work.
But you gotta ask Yourself does God hide up records for a wise purpose and the answer is yes God does hide things if people are not ready to receive them....This is why he knowing this he put his greatest portions of blessings of both heads of the two brothers instead of just on one brother So its not just Judah involved but also his brother Joseph whom God led away into Egypt.
God doesn't hide these things. That's a false equivalency to earthly parenting with mortal parents. WE are unable to see our comprehend a situation, much like a child who feels they can drive because they've observed others drive. No one hid the secret of driving from the child, the child assumed they knew and are stunned to find out they don't know everything. The human hubris.
@@opheliemarin This is to do with God's priesthood authority which Jacob had when he blessed his two sone, the the two brothers with the greatest of God's blessings. One Brother Judah would be where the Bible comes from the Jews, and the other brother Joseph would be where the Book of Mormon and the restored church of Jesus Christ in the last days would come out from. So I go by prophecy of what God promised to the two brothers.
@@opheliemarin But God does hide things. .He has his mysteries and he reveals his secret to his servants the prophets (Amos 3:7). if you check adam's genealogy, you will find this. 18. Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. (Luke 3:38.) So Adam's Father God did not come from this planet. He came from another planet. Since God along with his other Son Jehovah made worlds without number so naturally God is a celestial being from outer space. That shouldn't surprise anyone since God formed this world. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon in the last days in Isaiah Chapter 29 the sealed book of scripture was one of the things that God hid up in the earth because of the wickedness of men....And would reveal it in the last days....And is in fulfillment of the blessings Joseph was promised by God in Genesis chapter 49 under the hand of Jacob.. That through the restored gospel God would remember his covenant he made with abraham to bless all nations and would gather in all the tribes of the house of israel. The great gathering of the house of Israel is one of the signs of the times. And now Born Again Evangelist Christians have a problem because they teach incorrectly for doctrine that Man is not the same species as God Contradicting Luke's account of Adam's Genealogy and teach that man cannot become like God which contradicts what Jesus taught about becoming just like himself and his Father and here Adam's Genealogy shows that his Father was God. And his Father is from another world other than this one. And that's confirmed in Acts when Paul says that God the Father is the Father of all spirits of all flesh. And that is why we believe we have a heavenly Father and that Jesus is the Father's Advocate.
I believe this is the first time that I've ever seen Dr. Josh not wearing a bowtie. In all seriousness Dr. Kip and Dr. Josh discussing the book of Daniel was so informational. Derek, thanks for this long discussion format.
Abomination of Desolation was when jesus trashed a temple, took it over and got worshipped in it. You might wanna read Deuteronomy 13 and 2 Thesselonians 2 to help your understanding.
It's intriguing to see a shelf lined with books in the background, hinting at a depth of knowledge and insight. However, mere education only sometimes guarantees an understanding of truth. Reflecting on your journey, the root issue lies not in a lack of salvation, as some may suggest, but rather in the absence of truth from the outset. To suggest that you were "never saved" might not accurately capture the essence of your experience. Instead, it's more apt to assert that genuine salvation couldn't have taken root without the foundational truth. Hence, the feeling of drifting away isn't so much a falling from grace but a realization that you never possessed what you thought you had. This realization unveils a sobering truth about many churches today: they often fall short in imparting the fundamental truths essential for genuine spiritual growth. It's not a matter of deliberate deceit but rather a lack of depth in teaching the foundational truths that underpin authentic faith. Your journey serves as a poignant reminder of the importance of seeking and embracing truth. It's not merely about surface-level knowledge or religious rituals but rather about diving deep into the core truths that transform lives. As you continue your quest for truth, may it lead you to a deeper understanding and a more profound experience of genuine salvation.
@@jackisgallantOh, you mean such as when Christians try to explain bible god's omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence with "divine mysteries?" since there is far too much global suffering to justify the simultaneous existence of all 3 traits? You of all people should not be accusing anyone of cognitive bias or blind faith. Follow your bible and take the plank out of your own eye.
@@joshuadouma999 Oh look, an overly emotional anti-theist who wants to attempt to argue. Well, let's give it a shot until my rebuttals are deleted outright, despite them having no profanity or direct insults. I'll even help you out and start with the positive claim: Premise: God's omni-trifecta is not dependant on the state, or mere existence, of suffering in the world. His omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence are not affected by the existence of suffering, nor is His righteousness affected by the willful actions of men that run counter to His [God's] prescriptions. Suffering is the byproduct of being given choice. Choice is necessary to affect a true understanding of the abstract concept of Love. Beings created in love cannot _not_ have the freewill to choose where to place their affections. And, just for fun, atheists have no proper justification for their interpretation of suffering nor how it applies to God and creation, other than their own appeals to personal incredulity. Your turn.
You said it, translation. This channel thrives off translation mistakes but that does not discredit the Torah. To think one mistake discredits the entire wisdom given is a reflection of your ability to understand and comprehend high level knowledge. 😆👍🏼
@@DC-cg2jp The way I interpreted this translation is that these so called “sacred” texts had lost its association to the divine. It’s such a harsh translation from a scroll to a sickle. I’m glad to see these people picked up on the royal propaganda when the Septuagint was written. 😂🤘🏻
@@DC-cg2jp Yeah baby! That’s the feedback I like to hear. Instead of some ridiculous apologetic mental gymnastics pitch. I may not have academic qualifications but I surely study books and take courses from these wonderful people that do have these qualifications. Social media doesn’t require qualifications last I’ve heard. Have a great evening. 🤘🏻
@@Cloudryder read the Tanakh bruhv. Learn Hebrew and go directly to the Hebrew Scriptures. These kids channels only by focus on New Testament Greek translations. I’m speaking for the Torah. Everyone is recycling jokes about the transitions but that doesn’t discredit the Torah.
The story of the person going into the back of the temple and finding a new law is in Deuteronomy. In the book itself, it says that the high priest found a "long lost" text in the temple and then read it to the king.
2nd Kings 22. There is a public reading of the law toward the end of Deuteronomy, but finding it in the temple and reading it to the king (Josiah) is in 2nd Kings 22 (and copied in 2nd Chron 34).
Everyone interested in this topic today owes a debt to Robert Eisenman for his (and other hard working, dedicated peoples) efforts to open up the Dead sea scrolls. Having them to use as early comparisons and for otherwise unknown information is invaluable, R. Eisenmans approach to This subject helped to popularise it online. For that we have to thank him and the others, who helped to free the scrolls so that we could have the chance to learn from them.
I find it interesting they think the final kingdom is Greece because it mentions Greece in Chapter 8. Chapter 8 identifies a ram it associates with Medo-Persia. Then it identifies a goat from the west to conquer that it called Greece. If we look back at chapter 2, we know the statues starts with gold with the Babylon empire, then three (4?) more. We know Babylon fell to the (Silver) Medo-Persians and we know the Medo-Persians fell to Alexander the Great (Bronze). That leaves one more kingdom of iron, or two if the iron and clay are a different kingdom (rather than a weakening of iron). Am I missing something?
The other is the small horn of the goat are the Medes that give way to the larger horn (Persians) on the same goat head since they were part of the same empire. I don’t think it is as clear cut as they make it seem here.
@@phil42 The ram is Medo-Persian in chapter 8. It is explicitly stated. Shouldn't we see the Silver kingdon (w/two arms) as Medo/Persia? Why would you separate them in to Silver/Bronze? What is your rationale?
@@chrisazure1624 Yes. Wrote goat while thinking ram. The point I was trying to make and made poorly is that the first context, the Medes and Persians where treated as parts of a one single entity in the first dream so why would we assume they are now separate in this parallel dream?
There are Christians who do believe Greece was the final kingdom, I believe Hank Hanegraaff (the bible answer man), takes this position, though there are good arguments for Rome as well. With that aside, Daniel predicts not only the Messiah being cut off for sins, but His ascension to God to receive His kingdom, as well as the destruction of Jerusalem at the end of their age. In other words, no matter how liberal one gets in the interpretation of Daniel, somehow he got all of that right, and he got it right based on the dating that the book claims (the 70 weeks prophecy), which means even if the late date is true, that was one heck of a guess. One of the reasons these guys have to date things later is because they cannot accept predictive prophecy within their rules/framework.
@@bringemyoungpbuh4123 Not His sins, but sin in general. Daniel 9 talks of the end of sin and the Messiah being cut off-but not for Himself. All this happening in the same time period. Look for the 70 weeks prophesy.
@@flamingswordapologetics I miss identified your motive. I noticed your name and realize what you were arguing for. I pointed out the error in the video about Greece being the last kingdom. It is the last of two in Chapter 8, but it is the third of 4 if you align chapter 8 with chapter 2.
I don’t agree with all the conclusions but I found it interesting and learned several things. I find it interesting that the panel glossed over the fact that at least a portion of the book was admittedly dated to very early 2nd century AD and despite Kipp’s admission that it was a problem for the late dating of the book, it was never seriously addressed other than postulating that it could be an autograph copy. I think this remains a fairly big issue for a second century date. The panel even admits if you move it back another 50 years (from the carbon date of 185 BC) it becomes impossible to agree with the current skeptical hypothesis. Another component not addressed is there have been several analysis of the form of Aramaic used in those portions of Daniel that find it more consistent with 5th ish century BC Aramaic not 4-2nd CenturyBC. Given Kipp’s background I expected him to at least give his opinion or try and refute these studies. Finally, there are other alternatives to the formation hypothesis including parallel texts that were written as normal stories/literature ..ie similar to “fan fiction” that used Biblical figures that the people at the time would have known to not be “scripture” but still read and appreciated. There are other examples that are known at the time and we have plenty of modern examples today. 2000 years ago someone looking back would be wrong to conclude that Jesus Christ superstar or Life of Brian were considered gospel stores take seriously by 21st century Christians. Additionally, there could be an older Aramaic portion of the text that does date to 5th century that had more recent Hebrew texts added to it. That would make it a potentially corrupted text but not necessarily an out right forgery.
Note: i am a believer in Jesus Christ. I find Daniel's prayer in chapter 9:1-19 to be unique in the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. David's psalm 51 probably has some greater intensity than does Daniel's prayer. But David is praying for forgiveness for himself after committing adultery and killing her husband. Daniel's prayer is for his own sins and that for all of the sins of the Jews. From our point of view, Daniel probably only sinned infrequently. It is almost certain that Daniel was made to be a(n) eunuch in childhood. Saul/Paul probably had very intense prayers asking God for forgiveness, but did not leave a copy of them for us to read. Jesus Christ probably had the most intense prayers. Not for forgiveness, but for the strength to remain faithful to His Father during His crucifixion. Daniel came to realize how sinful he is. He also came to realize how sinful his people, the Jews, are. Just one verse (16) to get a sense for this prayer: O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let your anger and You fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and our iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us. Rabbinic Judaism seem to take a laissez faire attitude about being good and bad. Just try to be good. If not, try again. If we are good enough, we might make it so that the Messiach will come. I am a gentile. Relatively few Jews understand that one of their brothers, Jesus/Yeshua, is Our Savior. Jesus can change our hearts and minds to seek goodness, rather than evilness.
Welcome to the lion's den. All of that is great, but its important for Christians to understand the arguments, evaluate, research, and then decide whether these guys have it all right, part right, or not right at all. Daniel whether it was written based on the conservative view or this liberal view, got a lot of things right, especially as it pertains to Jesus, so still some amazing prophecy. I'm with the early dating, these guys partially have to date late because they can't accept predictive prophecy, even though the late date still has fulfilled predictive prophecy. We probably have the dead seas scrolls to thank for that.
Did we watch the same video? My takeaway is that at least part of Daniel is fiction. Even worse is pretending that recent history was written down as prophecy before the events instead of after, as we now know. That is blatant dishonesty. Also, there are no specific prophecies in the Old Testament that predict the messiah will be crucified. I mean specific. Instead, Christians look for any potential vague clue like looking for faces in clouds. If you squint hard enough, you can imagine anything.
@@lawrencemurray568 These guys are secular scholars, its simply not allowed as part of their interpretive paradigm to allow for predictive prophesy, this bias's them heavily to a late date. Psalm 22 is clearly a picture of crucifixion and is a picture of exactly what happened when Jesus was on the cross. I would suggest you watch James White and Michael Brown discuss this here on You-Tube, you can find it with a simple search. Prophesy, types, shadows, were purposely ambiguous enough that the Jews would crucify Jesus, yet clear enough to look back and see they all fit Him. If you think about it, that makes the probabilities even more, as the same scriptures accomplished two purposes . Daniel predicted the destruction of Jerusalem. Even if you take a late date, he made some good guesses, Messiah being killed (but not for Himself), sin ending, etc... Isaiah 53 also fits His death for sin, paying for someone else's iniquity.
You don’t know Jesus. You think you know Jesus based on a book that talks about Jesus and none are first hand accounts. That’s like saying you know Plato because you read Socrates.
They seem confused. There are two dream interpretations; in one, it shows Lion (Babylon), Bear with one side raised up (Media-Persia), Leopard with four wings (Greece), and then a fearsome beast with iron teeth and ten horns (Rome?). This is Daniel 7. In Daniel 8, it shows a ram that's killed by a goat. It explicitly states "the ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power." It does not contain any creature besides the goat. So Daniel 7 describes Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome(?) or some unknown empire, but it DOES NOT label these empires. This is my own labelling Daniel 8 describes Media-Persia and Greece, and it DOES label these empires in the text. However, it does not describe another empire.
For those genuinely seeking truth, it's essential to recognize that what we witness today is not unprecedented. Similar debates and denials have unfolded throughout history, from ancient Israel to the time of Christ, where scholars, Pharisees, and political leaders disregarded evidence and truth. The existence of Israel itself is undeniable, as are the ongoing battles in the region, prompting us to question why some deny Israel's heritage or the shared ancestry claimed by Arabs and Jews alike. Human nature often leads us to perceive and believe what aligns with our preconceptions and biases, a phenomenon exacerbated by modern media's dissemination of conflicting narratives, as witnessed in recent political events. This begs the question: Is there an objective truth, or are we merely subject to the agendas of those in power? The attempt to discredit the Bible is not new, yet it overlooks the fundamental question of whether truth itself exists. Despite the proliferation of alternative theories and prophecies, the Bible remains a timeless source of wisdom, its truths enduring despite attempts to deconstruct or reinterpret them. Many who challenge the Bible lack a foundational understanding of its teachings, often driven more by skepticism than genuine inquiry. While some subjects may indeed be complex, particularly for those without a deep theological background, the existence of spiritual adversaries and societal divisions reaffirms the Bible's relevance in today's world. The rise of secularism and social movements should not come as a surprise, as predicted societal shifts align with biblical prophecies of a "falling away" from religion. However, rejecting biblical truths in favor of popular ideologies highlights society's susceptibility to manipulation and deception. While skepticism may lead some to discount the Bible's authority, the absence of belief in God does not negate the existence of moral absolutes or societal norms. The universality of concepts such as right and wrong, theft, and the sanctity of life underscores the enduring relevance of biblical principles in shaping ethical behavior, inviting all of us to participate in this shared understanding. Ultimately, embracing or rejecting the Bible's teachings carries profound consequences, challenging individuals to confront the possibility of divine judgment and eternal consequences. Skeptics may dismiss such warnings as coercion, yet pursuing truth demands sincere reflection and critical examination of one's beliefs. In a world where truth is increasingly subjective and malleable, individuals must exercise discernment and humility in their quest for understanding. Rather than succumbing to societal pressures or intellectual trends, we must anchor our beliefs in timeless truths that transcend human whims and fashions. In conclusion, the attempts to discredit the Bible and undermine its authority are nothing new, reflecting age-old struggles between truth and deception. While skeptics may seek to redefine reality according to their own preferences, the enduring relevance of biblical principles serves as a steadfast anchor in an ever-changing world. Let us approach these debates with open hearts and minds, seeking truth above all else, for therein lies the path to genuine enlightenment and understanding.
Where did Dr. Kip get an Astroboy t-shirt? Is Astroboy making a comeback? I haven’t seen Astroboy in 60 years. [edit] I see they made an Astro Boy animated film in 2009. Even the wise are drawn to Astro Boy’s mysterious power to create a vacuum where there should be entertainment.
There was also a bit of a revival and some new merch arrived with the anime adaptation of Naoki Urasawa's Pluto which came out in the past year or two iirc. (it's a great adaptation, and I highly recommend both the anime and the manga). If you'ce unfamiliar, Pluto was an adaptation of the Astroboy story The Greatest Robot on Earth in Urasawa's signature style.
Same with John the Revelator, he was talking about HIS times, about the Romans. they werent talking about the future, it applies to what was going on in their worlds. Many things were taken from Babylonian and Sumerian gods/religion/stories, very interesting to know more about bible's roots.
@@johnfitzgerald2426 The 1st beast(from the sea) has 10 horns and on those horns 10 crowns.... The Greek informal for year is hroniá... It is saying that he had a 10 year reign.... I know who he was.... he pre-dates Rome.
@Highspergamy the prince of Grecia will rise from the bottomless pit and he will be behind the antichrist leading a confederacy of 10 nations against Israel
I would highly recommend James Tabor's 31 part series 'Bible Prophecy Through the Ages' for a good general overview of the problems with 'end-times' prophecy.
35:20 2 Esdras does not say (that Daniel was told) that the 4th empire is Greece. See 2 Esdras 12: 10-12 [Gabriel] said to me, “This is the interpretation of this vision that you have seen: The eagle that you saw coming up from the sea is the fourth kingdom that appeared in a vision to your brother Daniel. But it was not explained to him as I now explain to you or have explained it. I am reading in English of course, so I certainly could be mistaken... but it sounds to me like 2 Esdras is saying "Daniel was not given the interpretation, but I'm interpreting it for you now." Josh is saying (that 2 Esdras is saying) "I'm correcting the interpretation that Daniel was given." Regardless, 2 Esdras does not say (that Daniel was told) that empire 4 is Greece.
And so often misunderstood. How can chapter 7 refer to Antiochus Epiphanes? The 4th Empire can't be Greece, because Greece is obviosly the 3rd empire (4 heads in chapter 7, 4 horns in chapter 8). The 4th empire comes after Greece, it is Rome. The Antichrist comes out of Rome, and there is someone, who fits the prophecy. The papacy changed times and laws, persecuted the saints, blasphemed God, had power for 3.5 times (Revelation 12:6,14; Ezechiel 4:6) from 538 to 1798, when it received a mortal wound, which was healed (Revelation 13). And if you add together the letters of the Pope's title, "Vicarivs Filii Dei", you get the number 666.
@@anikomattison7568 I = 1 V = 5 X = 10 L = 50 C = 100 D = 500 Vicarivs Filii Dei (or Vicarius; the Romans used the V for the U): VIC(ar)IV(s) = 5+1+100+1+5 = 112 (f)ILII = 1+50+1+1= 53 D(e)I = 500+1 = 501 112+53+501=666
I don't know how believers can admit that Daniel and other parts of the Bible aren't what they were initially claimed to be and still say, "It doesn't matter. It's still meaningful and relevant."
If Daniel is a problem for believers, it does not seem well-argued here. The problems of this discussion seem to be: 1. Use of Esdras to interpret anything authoritatively. 2. Assuming Greece as the fourth kingdom, which seems a minority belief of Christians. 3. The assumption that the penitential prayer is not Daniel when it actually fits perfectly in Daniel 9. 4. The vague mention that 11:35 and subsequent as not fulfilled did not help any argument 5. Mention of some stuff being the yet-future event - which I see as inaccurate interpretation. It is bad for these guys to ridicule scripture based on misinterpretations of it. 6. The assertion as ultimate truth ideas that Kipp should only assert as probable from his perspective.
@@carstenstampe My point about misinterpretations concerns Christian's not understanding the text correctly or consistently. Sure, the point carries over to the atheist use of those misinterpretations to make their points. For example, if think the mention of four corners of the earth means the earth is square, the atheists can take this to mean the bible says the earth is square. Any argument they build on that idea then is a flop. The other problem I saw is that these PhDs do not recognize scripture as another testimony of historical events and may be more accurate than other sources on history -- or may be highlighting details when other writers of history may go into greater details or address unrelated details. Mostly, my points are for showing inquisitive minds the potential problems in the views shared in the video.
@@mikeswhitneyThe Bible is nowhere close to be reliable enough to be considered a trustworthy historical source, specially the Old Testament. The Illiad and the Aeneid may be even more reliable even despite mentioning gods and nymphs all the time too.
@@carstenstampeWhat you call misinterpretation is doctrine or dogma for other Christian denominations...and vice versa. You folks can't even agree among yourselve and often won't cross check in good faith other than to attempt to prove others as satanic.
@@MrAlepedroza You read things backwards. The skeptics have so often been found wrong when thinking the scriptures are inaccurate on historical details. I guess you will side with the wrongthinkers. I've not investigated all the times the skeptics are wrong but it may be more often than not that the skeptics rely on wrong interpretations of scripture to find that as an indication that scripture is wrong. If you are so skeptical about scripture accuracy you cannot hardly trust any history before the 19th century either.
@35:35 "...Daniel thought it was Greece" that brought to mind John 12:21-31 20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: 21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. 22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus. 23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. 30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31 Now is the judgment of this world:
Could you do a video on Steven Hawkings book the grand design and the debates that it started about his assertions about the laws of gravity and the explanation of physical existence arising due to the operation of natural laws and that the Big Bang was an inevitable consequence of the laws of physics. So, question arose that, did the laws of physics existed before creation or before the point of origin of the universe and if yes then we have replaced on entity (god) with that of another (gravity) as the creator of the universe. This is a quote from Steven Hawkings: "Because there are laws such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going." So, debate over the pros and cons of Hawkings about this would be very interesting.
Weren't multiple copies of Daniel found in Nag Hammadi Egypt dated first century bc therefore Daniel must have been written at least second century bc?
I forget the proper name,but Nebucanezer some think had a werewolf syndrome,that drove him into the wilderness.Its interesting the connection of worship the moon God and the word lunacy.
My preacher dad took daniel as gospel, But had to include a time jump where Antiochus Epiphanies Was really a future despot 2k years later that would invade a new jewish temple and bring about the tribulation. But maybe it was just a failed prediction from the second century bc. hmmm....
Can someone explain why the portions of Daniel that are written in Aramaic pose a problem? Wasn't Aramaic spoken and widely around the Jews were in Babylonian captivity?
What I’m interested in hearing is what 21st-century science is showing on the shroud of Turin, I have been studying apologetics for 40 years, and I am amazed at the evidence Stephen better than the anthropic cosmological principle
Funny how it took until the 1850's before Archeologists found out what Daniel knew in the 6th century regarding Belshazzars existence, and that he was in fact the heir to the throne. Herodotus never mentioned him, but Daniel knew who he was long before Archeology proved it.
38:20 Agreed! I'm fairly certain about everything I'm writing here, but I could be mistaken. The book of Jubliees was written about the same time Daniel was written. There is a copy a Jubilees dating to 110-115 BCE using Paleography. It claims to be further revelation from Moses. It was revered by the Essenes, just decades after it was written. This parallels the late Daniel hypothesis quite amazingly.
As ever, incisive scholarship cuts straight through pathetic apologetics. Btw, I did the voice over for the prayer of Nabonidas in Kipp's show - but there wasn't the space in that one to explain more about him ... Thanks for all the extra info now 🙂
Sadly in c. 1947 an Egyptian retrieved from a Judaean Bedouin rifling through cave 2 (?) came across a copy of Daniel 1-12 with a line by line ‘pesher’ commentary inserted after each 1 or 2 verses (‘Interpreted, this refers to v.g. the Wicked Priest who attacked the Teacher upon Yom Kippur’ ..&c.) forming a fat, long single 60-foot scroll which was eventually brought to jazz-pianist cum CIA operative working out of his office in Damascus = ‘Miles Copeland Jr’ born in 1916) whose wife who held archaeology degrees swore up and down for 25 years after his death that her husband & several junior photographic CIA operatives had gone to the roof of their Damascus office building to ‘get enough sunlight’ to photograph the opened scroll and made TWO high resolution Colour photographs of all 60-feet of this invaluable scroll (causing some of the ‘edges to blow away like large pieces of ash in a stiff wind’ (!!!) BUT…after having shewn some of the photographs to the American Embassy in Beirut representing large sections of the text for translation to be given to ancient-language experts to decipher (‘which my husband was told was written both in Hebrew & in Aramaic’ though he could not read it himself because the script was very cramped & largely in Aramaic which he was not able to read or translate with any ease of comprehension’). His wife swore on her Bible that soon after not only the scroll itself but also BOTH Colour photos of the complete scroll mysteriously (ahem) ‘disappeared without a trace’ from our bedroom where they had been stored…where they ended up she could not say for sure - She was only able to state that her late husband suspected the Jesuits working secretly as spies for the Ecole Biblique who had recently ‘taken over’ the Dead Sea scrolls publishing project placing ONLY Roman Catholics in charge of piecing-together then translating what was found ‘careful not to publish anything without express permission of the Ecole that might impinge upon the image of our Lord Jesus’ - NB: the only non-Catholic on the original Ecole Biblique Dead Sea Scrolls translation team was the great Manchester & Oxford linguist John Marco Allegro (an avowed atheist) who rapidly published ALL the fragments given to him in 1960 (including ‘The Copper Scroll’ & ‘A Genesis Apocryphon’ & a pile of ‘pesherim [4Q158 to 4Q186 & layer 4Qpesher Nahum] fragments of commentaries on select verses’) without ‘express permission’ (especially the ‘copper scroll’ from cave 3) and soon fell afoul of the Ecole Biblique and peremptorily asked ‘to leave’ the group…confiscating the scrolls he held in his own possession… Where the full scroll of the pesherDaniel may be hiding in some hidden (Vatican ?) underground safe is not known - it would be VERY interesting if these original Miles-Copeland Colour photos of the original 60-foot intact scroll ever came to light in toto-without any Vatican shenanigans like ‘removing any passages embarrassing to the Holy Mother Church’ - maybe someone reading this comment may ‘know something others do not know’ about them…
The contradictions in the Bible are no problem for most people. There are a handful of people who feel it necessary to justify their existence like William Lane Craig who care.
There are numerous contradictions in the Bible that would make it an unreliable authority. If a book contains false statements then it loses its authenticity. How can one trust the scriptures if its authenticity is in question?
Hello! Do you happen to have debates with other sects of Christianity that don’t subscribe to sola scriptural theology like Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, both of which rely on church tradition in addition to scripture as authoritative and supplement their understanding of Christian faith with the writings of well-respected philosophers such as Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine? I ask because I can understand why many Christians who are raised with the fundamentalist sola scripture mentality go away from the faith once they get to college and can’t reconcile intellectualism with Christianity. I have, however, found that in academia many of my friends convert to Catholicism or some other Orthodox faith to reconcile intellectualism, philosophy, etc with a belief in God. I think someone like Bishop Barron or Trent Horn would be very interesting guests on your show, if you have not debated or interviewed them yet!
Daniel says three things; 1- He himself did not understand what the prophecies mean. 2- The book could not be understood until the time of the end was here. 3- Only the genuine true followers of God would understand but not until at the time of the end. So all discussion of Daniel will avail nothing.
@@thedude0000 {I've read it and written papers on it. It's quite apparent that you did not watch the video...} Yes, you've got me there, I didn't watch the video. The video is 44 mins long. The speakers were just fluffing about with chitty chat & I was not wanting to waste time & chew through data listening to that. I admit, I did get a bit impatient. So I thought I would just make a fundamental observation re Daniel & prophecy which many people seem to be blissfully unaware of. Your following response, indicates you may be one of them. {I've seen some mental gymnastics defending the Book of Daniel, but you just took the gold medal."} This is what I said; "Daniel says three things; 1- He himself did not understand what the prophecies mean. 2- The book could not be understood until the time of the end was here. 3- Only the genuine true followers of God would understand but not until at the time of the end. So all discussion of Daniel will avail nothing." I was going to cite verses in support of my claims, but you of all people should be able to tell me what the relevant verses are and should be able to demonstrate they don't say what I claim. So, I'll leave it up to you.
>2 Esdras 12:10-12 is the “correction” of Daniel’s prophesy. The angel says it was not explained to Daniel the same way that it is being explained to Esdras. Greece and Rome are not mentioned specifically but it’s clear the writer is addressing a problem with Daniel’s prophesy. >Ezekiel 14:14 mentions Noah, Daniel, and Job as bastions of righteousness. Seems kind of an odd grouping and odd timing; the time setting of Ezekiel is virtually simultaneous with young Daniel and friends getting started in Babylon. ~6th year of first wave of exiles. >Bel and the Dragon is a trip. It includes a version of Daniel and the lions den, where the prophet Habakkuk makes a stew in Judaea, is flown to Babylon by angels clutching his hair to feed the stew to Daniel in the lion’s den.
Daniel did not prophesy falsely. He prophesied, that the little horn Antichrist comes out of Rome, and he was right. It is not Daniel, who is wrong, it is the majority of churches, who are wrong, who think he was talking about Antiochus IV.
I think it's fascinating how every other source of a particular story is plausible but we must always doubt the reliability of the Bible for some reason. Can someone tell me why?
"Plausible" in what sense? They aren't suggesting other ancient myths actually happened as written; they're explaining the evolution of storytelling that led to the books we have today.
@@davesfriendhal It always seems that the stories worth remembering are in the Bible but the narrative is that somehow the biblical stories are not true because some other similar stories are more plausible. It just seems more plausible that the Biblical stories are true because they stood the test of time. The other ones are fictional or a little distorted. Seems more obvious to me that people before us would have wanted the truth to be preserved.
@@remainhumble6432 You seem to be starting off from the very dangerous position of assuming a story is true or meant to reflect a literal lived experience. You also seem to be assuming that's what other people believe when they are critical and point out literary sources. But maybe Im misunderstanding you. I'm not sure where they do what you're talking about in the video.
No hate but I really wish you’d tone down your titles. When I share these with Christians, they’re often immediately put off by how the titles look. Again no hate just my opinion
@mythvisionpodcast 😢😢😢 your scholars are too far away from the mic. Causing huge echo. Its a good idea to have them together for the energy but they need some direction on how to podcast. Maybe a table between? Maybe they want their laptops. But definitely get closer to the mic. I hope this helps!
Most bible believers are not bible readers.
“The Bible is the best-selling book that nobody ever reads.”
-Dan Barker
Most Bible believers have Bible studies but don't study the Bible just doctrine or dogma.
Best statement I think I have ever heard love it thats very powerful statement of truth.
Accurate. People carry the damn thing around like they glean knowledge by osmosis, but they are really saying they are afraid social progress and change in general. Hate covered by a very thin veneer of religiosity.
@@DesGardius-me7gfWow thats powerful and true
Dude, these edited, long form conversations about one specific topic SLAP. Keep em coming, I love this format.
True, I love it. Just Derek and Kipps shirts are somewhat distracting from what they're saying.
@@JesseMeijerclose your eyes 😅
indeed. if you try to show an evangelical apologist that their views are not supported by scholarship, you will eventually find that any topic comes down to some critical details. it's all well and good to listen to scholars talk in generalities, and understand the big picture ... but you will need to know details if you have the time and patience to drive an apologetic claim into the ground. if you encountered the common claim that the dead sea scrolls prove the authenticity of daniel, you'd be stumped by the specious half truths of a good apologist if you didn't know the details. this is a great coverage of how the parts of daniel fit together and how the story is informed by the available manuscript fragments; and you're hearing it from people with experience in having the arguments with apologists trying to defend the "traditional" view. [which isn't really traditional, because mainstream scholars dated daniel to 2nd century BC a long time ago. but this recent work puts the cherry on top.] i've known for a long time that the book of daniel is especially devastating to the case of people trying to take the bible at face value and imagine that it proves prophecy, but amateurs can acquire a really solid understanding now. and if any of this is a bit unclear, i've heard kipp explaining daniel on a few different podcasts now and i found it useful to hear it explained in slightly different ways
I really enjoyed this talk. I do wish one thing: they would quote Bible verses more often instead of just saying a reference to what it generally says.
KEVVVV
I love it that they love the Bible even more upon finding out its complexity and that they don't have to believe it but enjoy it.
Phillipians 1 vs 6 he who started a good work in you will see it through to completion. All these guys will eventually come back to faith even if it's on their deathbed. Just look up famous atheist last words and moments to see more clear they are in rebellion and God will show them something from their extensive study to bring them back. Whatever you believe about the Bible whatever lies a pastor told you or whatever caused a church hurt or betrayal feeling in the mind will be worked out. Of course the Bible is not flawless and not edited that's stupid in my opinion to say man has sinful nature but we trust his hand in writing editing translation etc. people get hurt when they find something that shows this and feel betrayed. I've come to my own personal conclusion the general message cannot be changed can't take the word out of the word.
@@adonai136 🐑🐑🐑 Keep coping.
@@MrAlepedroza thank you friend. To what do I owe the Honor? I won't waste time on explanation of who I am but I promise you have a wrong idea of me. Tell me have you ever examined anything for yourself or just waste time listening to people talk and give regurgitated information on UA-cam? I'm guessing you don't believe anything or consider yourself educated so let's have your story? I'm no Christian nor am I bound by any religion just an observer
@@adonai136the Bible is not 100 percent perfect because people wrote down what their perception about the world around them was. That doesn’t change the fact that God and only God is perfect. I read about Islam Buddhism and dofferent religion but one thing is for sure true: we have a God who created us, loves us and gave us free will hoping that we follow theway of love
This is my belief
@@anikomattison7568 thank you for sharing and your open mind. I have studied many paths myself until I've settled into the vedanta teachings specifically the lineage of sri ramakrishna paramahansa to swami Vivekananda here you find all paths are embraced and are paths to God. I'm always Leary of anyone claiming to have a monopoly on the truth. blessings my friend
I am 75 years old, and as an Episcopalian, have always been taught the the Book of Daniel was written as religious fiction.
In high school, I had friends who were taught that the KJV, word for word, punctuation mark per punctuation mark was THEE TRUTH! The Last True, Inerrant, Revelation of God! I can see where if you were taught that to learn decades later, that the Bible was a collection of scrolls, written mostly be men, but probably at least a few women, over 10 or 15 centuries, and was mostly just their opinions about Israel's relationship with God, and their personal experiences with having a relationship with God. And like the AA Big Book: "Take what you can use and leave the rest."
i grew up in the australian equivalent of episcopalian. i stopped believing but still admire the fact that there are churches that can accommodate real scholarship; that can tolerate diverse opinions, and support christian belief without imposing the painful contradictions of bible worship. when i spent a lot of time arguing with evangelicals, i'd reject their claims of having proof, but i wouldn't suggest they give up their belief. i would however suggest they become anglicans
Some of the contents of the Bible seem to narrate Near Death Experiences of the authors, and later added narratives or changes to accomodate the power hunger of controllers of nations.
If Daniel is fiction how can Jesus be real? It all falls apart without Daniel because daniel is taken very seriously in the New Testament
🙏🏻
👑🌍🌍👑🌍 What you were taught in school was the opinions of men.
The book of Daniel is carbon dated to the second century BC in the later copy of the GREEK SEPTUAGINT.
THAT'S WHY THE PROPHECIES IN THE BOOK OF DANIEL ARE SO ASTOUNDING. THESE GUYS ARE NOW EXPOSED AS KNOW NOTHINGS.
There are people that really need to believe in something to become a better persons. And real knowledge can really damage them,instead of just "showing the truth"
The Bible isn't about making you a better person, its about choosing life everlasting or eternal damnation, and its not works based like every other religion of good deeds out weighing bad deeds.
Then they aren't really becoming better people. It's a crutch for morality that becomes a dependence. It's dangerous and stupid.
Thanks for this amazing discussion! ❤❤
Thanks for making scholarship and digging deep into the sources a cool thing
Talking with two of my favorite people. Love it.
Derek
I really appreciated how you guys slowed it down time for us non formally educated students
Thanks
Long form and in depth! Love it.
OMG, I am half way through and it is soooooo good!!! Thank you for your hard work!!!
Love this episode, Josh and Dr. Kill are Awesome 💯😎
Thank you.
Kip has a great channel. I love the music and the discourse.
Two of my favourite scholars, and together they're even better. I have watched some of Dr. K's full courses and they're excellent. I strongly encourage you to do more work on the Old Testament and Talmudic judaism.
YALL MAKE ME SO HAPPY
The Book of Mormon is kind of a case where a person claimed to "go in the back room of the temple and find a book." It was a hill, not a room in the temple, but the principle is the same. In the 1800s it was a popular literary trope to claim that a book had a mystic origin.
Back in the late 1960s there was a poem called "Desiderata" that was associated with a discovery myth. It was supposed to have been found in the wall of an old church. Lots of people believed the myth, even though the poem was from a published work.
But you gotta ask Yourself does God hide up records for a wise purpose and the answer is yes God does hide things if people are not ready to receive them....This is why he knowing this he put his greatest portions of blessings of both heads of the two brothers instead of just on one brother So its not just Judah involved but also his brother Joseph whom God led away into Egypt.
God doesn't hide these things. That's a false equivalency to earthly parenting with mortal parents. WE are unable to see our comprehend a situation, much like a child who feels they can drive because they've observed others drive. No one hid the secret of driving from the child, the child assumed they knew and are stunned to find out they don't know everything.
The human hubris.
@@opheliemarin This is to do with God's priesthood authority which Jacob had when he blessed his two sone, the the two brothers with the greatest of God's blessings. One Brother Judah would be where the Bible comes from the Jews, and the other brother Joseph would be where the Book of Mormon and the restored church of Jesus Christ in the last days would come out from. So I go by prophecy of what God promised to the two brothers.
@@germanslice I stand by my statement.
@@opheliemarin But God does hide things. .He has his mysteries and he reveals his secret to his servants the prophets (Amos 3:7).
if you check adam's genealogy, you will find this.
18. Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. (Luke 3:38.)
So Adam's Father God did not come from this planet. He came from another planet. Since God along with his other Son Jehovah made worlds without number so naturally God is a celestial being from outer space.
That shouldn't surprise anyone since God formed this world.
The coming forth of the Book of Mormon in the last days in Isaiah Chapter 29 the sealed book of scripture was one of the things that God hid up in the earth because of the wickedness of men....And would reveal it in the last days....And is in fulfillment of the blessings Joseph was promised by God in Genesis chapter 49 under the hand of Jacob.. That through the restored gospel God would remember his covenant he made with abraham to bless all nations and would gather in all the tribes of the house of israel. The great gathering of the house of Israel is one of the signs of the times.
And now Born Again Evangelist Christians have a problem because they teach incorrectly for doctrine that Man is not the same species as God Contradicting Luke's account of Adam's Genealogy and teach that man cannot become like God which contradicts what Jesus taught about becoming just like himself and his Father and here Adam's Genealogy shows that his Father was God. And his Father is from another world other than this one.
And that's confirmed in Acts when Paul says that God the Father is the Father of all spirits of all flesh.
And that is why we believe we have a heavenly Father and that Jesus is the Father's Advocate.
I believe this is the first time that I've ever seen Dr. Josh not wearing a bowtie. In all seriousness Dr. Kip and Dr. Josh discussing the book of Daniel was so informational. Derek, thanks for this long discussion format.
I definitely like Josh's new look.
Please visit, Babylon and Tyre and check for yourself ‼️Ever heard of a nation dispersed throughout the world and regathered as nation again ⁉️
Syllibine orioles are 7th century AD. Anybody can come along later and write an interpretation.
Abomination of Desolation isn't Smaug?
Hahaha 🤣
Abomination of Desolation was when jesus trashed a temple, took it over and got worshipped in it. You might wanna read Deuteronomy 13 and 2 Thesselonians 2 to help your understanding.
Hey, Derek, I had made a similar comment to Dr. KIP. As an atheist I love & appreciate the Bible even more than I did when I was a Fundagelical.
I dont read much historical fiction. Thx for the summary.
intro is wild lol
It's intriguing to see a shelf lined with books in the background, hinting at a depth of knowledge and insight. However, mere education only sometimes guarantees an understanding of truth. Reflecting on your journey, the root issue lies not in a lack of salvation, as some may suggest, but rather in the absence of truth from the outset.
To suggest that you were "never saved" might not accurately capture the essence of your experience. Instead, it's more apt to assert that genuine salvation couldn't have taken root without the foundational truth. Hence, the feeling of drifting away isn't so much a falling from grace but a realization that you never possessed what you thought you had.
This realization unveils a sobering truth about many churches today: they often fall short in imparting the fundamental truths essential for genuine spiritual growth. It's not a matter of deliberate deceit but rather a lack of depth in teaching the foundational truths that underpin authentic faith.
Your journey serves as a poignant reminder of the importance of seeking and embracing truth. It's not merely about surface-level knowledge or religious rituals but rather about diving deep into the core truths that transform lives. As you continue your quest for truth, may it lead you to a deeper understanding and a more profound experience of genuine salvation.
Mythvision is like seeing the whole iceberg.
You should read Dr. Bowen's book! 🤘🤘🤘
The whole iceberg of cognitive bias in practice.
Someone who thinks all you see is all there is probably isn't seeing the whole iceberg.
@@jackisgallantOh, you mean such as when Christians try to explain bible god's omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence with "divine mysteries?" since there is far too much global suffering to justify the simultaneous existence of all 3 traits? You of all people should not be accusing anyone of cognitive bias or blind faith. Follow your bible and take the plank out of your own eye.
@@joshuadouma999 Oh look, an overly emotional anti-theist who wants to attempt to argue. Well, let's give it a shot until my rebuttals are deleted outright, despite them having no profanity or direct insults. I'll even help you out and start with the positive claim:
Premise: God's omni-trifecta is not dependant on the state, or mere existence, of suffering in the world.
His omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence are not affected by the existence of suffering, nor is His righteousness affected by the willful actions of men that run counter to His [God's] prescriptions.
Suffering is the byproduct of being given choice. Choice is necessary to affect a true understanding of the abstract concept of Love. Beings created in love cannot _not_ have the freewill to choose where to place their affections.
And, just for fun, atheists have no proper justification for their interpretation of suffering nor how it applies to God and creation, other than their own appeals to personal incredulity.
Your turn.
I enjoy reading the Septuagint. Hey Kipp, Why does the translation of the flying scroll change to flying sickle in Zechariah 5: 1-4?
You said it, translation. This channel thrives off translation mistakes but that does not discredit the Torah. To think one mistake discredits the entire wisdom given is a reflection of your ability to understand and comprehend high level knowledge. 😆👍🏼
@@DC-cg2jp The way I interpreted this translation is that these so called “sacred” texts had lost its association to the divine. It’s such a harsh translation from a scroll to a sickle. I’m glad to see these people picked up on the royal propaganda when the Septuagint was written. 😂🤘🏻
@@Cloudryder the fact that you are talking about a Septuagint shows you’re not even qualified to make a remark bruhv. NEXT
@@DC-cg2jp Yeah baby! That’s the feedback I like to hear. Instead of some ridiculous apologetic mental gymnastics pitch. I may not have academic qualifications but I surely study books and take courses from these wonderful people that do have these qualifications. Social media doesn’t require qualifications last I’ve heard. Have a great evening. 🤘🏻
@@Cloudryder read the Tanakh bruhv. Learn Hebrew and go directly to the Hebrew Scriptures. These kids channels only by focus on New Testament Greek translations. I’m speaking for the Torah. Everyone is recycling jokes about the transitions but that doesn’t discredit the Torah.
great forensics
Excellent
Thank you Dr Bowen, Dr Davis and Derek. Such an educational conversation. Great work, keep it up!
Fantastic
The story of the person going into the back of the temple and finding a new law is in Deuteronomy. In the book itself, it says that the high priest found a "long lost" text in the temple and then read it to the king.
2nd Kings 22. There is a public reading of the law toward the end of Deuteronomy, but finding it in the temple and reading it to the king (Josiah) is in 2nd Kings 22 (and copied in 2nd Chron 34).
Everyone interested in this topic today owes a debt to Robert Eisenman for his (and other hard working, dedicated peoples) efforts to open up the Dead sea scrolls. Having them to use as early comparisons and for otherwise unknown information is invaluable, R. Eisenmans approach to This subject helped to popularise it online. For that we have to thank him and the others, who helped to free the scrolls so that we could have the chance to learn from them.
Professional quality picture!
I find it interesting they think the final kingdom is Greece because it mentions Greece in Chapter 8. Chapter 8 identifies a ram it associates with Medo-Persia. Then it identifies a goat from the west to conquer that it called Greece. If we look back at chapter 2, we know the statues starts with gold with the Babylon empire, then three (4?) more. We know Babylon fell to the (Silver) Medo-Persians and we know the Medo-Persians fell to Alexander the Great (Bronze). That leaves one more kingdom of iron, or two if the iron and clay are a different kingdom (rather than a weakening of iron). Am I missing something?
That's one interpretation. Another is
Gold = Babylon
Silver = medes
Bronze = Persia
Iron = Greece
The other is the small horn of the goat are the Medes that give way to the larger horn (Persians) on the same goat head since they were part of the same empire. I don’t think it is as clear cut as they make it seem here.
@@phil42 The ram is Medo-Persian in chapter 8. It is explicitly stated. Shouldn't we see the Silver kingdon (w/two arms) as Medo/Persia?
Why would you separate them in to Silver/Bronze? What is your rationale?
@jmassey7037 The Goat is Greece. The Ram is medo-persia. It is stated in ch 8.
@@chrisazure1624
Yes. Wrote goat while thinking ram. The point I was trying to make and made poorly is that the first context, the Medes and Persians where treated as parts of a one single entity in the first dream so why would we assume they are now separate in this parallel dream?
There are Christians who do believe Greece was the final kingdom, I believe Hank Hanegraaff (the bible answer man), takes this position, though there are good arguments for Rome as well. With that aside, Daniel predicts not only the Messiah being cut off for sins, but His ascension to God to receive His kingdom, as well as the destruction of Jerusalem at the end of their age. In other words, no matter how liberal one gets in the interpretation of Daniel, somehow he got all of that right, and he got it right based on the dating that the book claims (the 70 weeks prophecy), which means even if the late date is true, that was one heck of a guess.
One of the reasons these guys have to date things later is because they cannot accept predictive prophecy within their rules/framework.
Where does Daniel predict the Messiah will be cut off because of his sins?
@@bringemyoungpbuh4123 Not His sins, but sin in general. Daniel 9 talks of the end of sin and the Messiah being cut off-but not for Himself. All this happening in the same time period. Look for the 70 weeks prophesy.
@@flamingswordapologetics So what is the issue? We know Christ died for our sins, but he himself is sinless.
@@bringemyoungpbuh4123 Yes, no issue, not sure what you are referring to. You asked where in Daniel this was, so I told you.
@@flamingswordapologetics I miss identified your motive. I noticed your name and realize what you were arguing for.
I pointed out the error in the video about Greece being the last kingdom. It is the last of two in Chapter 8, but it is the third of 4 if you align chapter 8 with chapter 2.
I don’t agree with all the conclusions but I found it interesting and learned several things. I find it interesting that the panel glossed over the fact that at least a portion of the book was admittedly dated to very early 2nd century AD and despite Kipp’s admission that it was a problem for the late dating of the book, it was never seriously addressed other than postulating that it could be an autograph copy. I think this remains a fairly big issue for a second century date. The panel even admits if you move it back another 50 years (from the carbon date of 185 BC) it becomes impossible to agree with the current skeptical hypothesis. Another component not addressed is there have been several analysis of the form of Aramaic used in those portions of Daniel that find it more consistent with 5th ish century BC Aramaic not 4-2nd CenturyBC. Given Kipp’s background I expected him to at least give his opinion or try and refute these studies. Finally, there are other alternatives to the formation hypothesis including parallel texts that were written as normal stories/literature ..ie similar to “fan fiction” that used Biblical figures that the people at the time would have known to not be “scripture” but still read and appreciated. There are other examples that are known at the time and we have plenty of modern examples today. 2000 years ago someone looking back would be wrong to conclude that Jesus Christ superstar or Life of Brian were considered gospel stores take seriously by 21st century Christians. Additionally, there could be an older Aramaic portion of the text that does date to 5th century that had more recent Hebrew texts added to it. That would make it a potentially corrupted text but not necessarily an out right forgery.
Note: i am a believer in Jesus Christ. I find Daniel's prayer in chapter 9:1-19 to be unique in the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. David's psalm 51 probably has some greater intensity than does Daniel's prayer. But David is praying for forgiveness for himself after committing adultery and killing her husband. Daniel's prayer is for his own sins and that for all of the sins of the Jews. From our point of view, Daniel probably only sinned infrequently. It is almost certain that Daniel was made to be a(n) eunuch in childhood. Saul/Paul probably had very intense prayers asking God for forgiveness, but did not leave a copy of them for us to read. Jesus Christ probably had the most intense prayers. Not for forgiveness, but for the strength to remain faithful to His Father during His crucifixion.
Daniel came to realize how sinful he is. He also came to realize how sinful his people, the Jews, are. Just one verse (16) to get a sense for this prayer: O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let your anger and You fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and our iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us.
Rabbinic Judaism seem to take a laissez faire attitude about being good and bad. Just try to be good. If not, try again. If we are good enough, we might make it so that the Messiach will come. I am a gentile. Relatively few Jews understand that one of their brothers, Jesus/Yeshua, is Our Savior. Jesus can change our hearts and minds to seek goodness, rather than evilness.
Welcome to the lion's den. All of that is great, but its important for Christians to understand the arguments, evaluate, research, and then decide whether these guys have it all right, part right, or not right at all. Daniel whether it was written based on the conservative view or this liberal view, got a lot of things right, especially as it pertains to Jesus, so still some amazing prophecy. I'm with the early dating, these guys partially have to date late because they can't accept predictive prophecy, even though the late date still has fulfilled predictive prophecy. We probably have the dead seas scrolls to thank for that.
Did we watch the same video? My takeaway is that at least part of Daniel is fiction. Even worse is pretending that recent history was written down as prophecy before the events instead of after, as we now know. That is blatant dishonesty.
Also, there are no specific prophecies in the Old Testament that predict the messiah will be crucified. I mean specific. Instead, Christians look for any potential vague clue like looking for faces in clouds. If you squint hard enough, you can imagine anything.
@@lawrencemurray568 These guys are secular scholars, its simply not allowed as part of their interpretive paradigm to allow for predictive prophesy, this bias's them heavily to a late date.
Psalm 22 is clearly a picture of crucifixion and is a picture of exactly what happened when Jesus was on the cross. I would suggest you watch James White and Michael Brown discuss this here on You-Tube, you can find it with a simple search.
Prophesy, types, shadows, were purposely ambiguous enough that the Jews would crucify Jesus, yet clear enough to look back and see they all fit Him. If you think about it, that makes the probabilities even more, as the same scriptures accomplished two purposes .
Daniel predicted the destruction of Jerusalem. Even if you take a late date, he made some good guesses, Messiah being killed (but not for Himself), sin ending, etc...
Isaiah 53 also fits His death for sin, paying for someone else's iniquity.
If repentance is enough, the human sacrifice of Jesus is USELESS. The Messiah is also not cursed like in Xtianity
You don’t know Jesus. You think you know Jesus based on a book that talks about Jesus and none are first hand accounts. That’s like saying you know Plato because you read Socrates.
What is the best book about Daniel?
When fundies and evangelicals say they "believe in" the Bible they mean they worship it as an object. Its like a statue to them, not a book.
Where does it say in Daniel: "the final kingdom is Greece"?
l tried looking for the verse but cant find it😊
They seem confused. There are two dream interpretations; in one, it shows Lion (Babylon), Bear with one side raised up (Media-Persia), Leopard with four wings (Greece), and then a fearsome beast with iron teeth and ten horns (Rome?). This is Daniel 7. In Daniel 8, it shows a ram that's killed by a goat. It explicitly states "the ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power." It does not contain any creature besides the goat.
So Daniel 7 describes Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome(?) or some unknown empire, but it DOES NOT label these empires. This is my own labelling
Daniel 8 describes Media-Persia and Greece, and it DOES label these empires in the text. However, it does not describe another empire.
This is an excellent study!🎉 love your work and topics brother!🙌🏼🙏🏼😇
For those genuinely seeking truth, it's essential to recognize that what we witness today is not unprecedented. Similar debates and denials have unfolded throughout history, from ancient Israel to the time of Christ, where scholars, Pharisees, and political leaders disregarded evidence and truth. The existence of Israel itself is undeniable, as are the ongoing battles in the region, prompting us to question why some deny Israel's heritage or the shared ancestry claimed by Arabs and Jews alike.
Human nature often leads us to perceive and believe what aligns with our preconceptions and biases, a phenomenon exacerbated by modern media's dissemination of conflicting narratives, as witnessed in recent political events. This begs the question: Is there an objective truth, or are we merely subject to the agendas of those in power?
The attempt to discredit the Bible is not new, yet it overlooks the fundamental question of whether truth itself exists. Despite the proliferation of alternative theories and prophecies, the Bible remains a timeless source of wisdom, its truths enduring despite attempts to deconstruct or reinterpret them.
Many who challenge the Bible lack a foundational understanding of its teachings, often driven more by skepticism than genuine inquiry. While some subjects may indeed be complex, particularly for those without a deep theological background, the existence of spiritual adversaries and societal divisions reaffirms the Bible's relevance in today's world.
The rise of secularism and social movements should not come as a surprise, as predicted societal shifts align with biblical prophecies of a "falling away" from religion. However, rejecting biblical truths in favor of popular ideologies highlights society's susceptibility to manipulation and deception.
While skepticism may lead some to discount the Bible's authority, the absence of belief in God does not negate the existence of moral absolutes or societal norms. The universality of concepts such as right and wrong, theft, and the sanctity of life underscores the enduring relevance of biblical principles in shaping ethical behavior, inviting all of us to participate in this shared understanding.
Ultimately, embracing or rejecting the Bible's teachings carries profound consequences, challenging individuals to confront the possibility of divine judgment and eternal consequences. Skeptics may dismiss such warnings as coercion, yet pursuing truth demands sincere reflection and critical examination of one's beliefs.
In a world where truth is increasingly subjective and malleable, individuals must exercise discernment and humility in their quest for understanding. Rather than succumbing to societal pressures or intellectual trends, we must anchor our beliefs in timeless truths that transcend human whims and fashions.
In conclusion, the attempts to discredit the Bible and undermine its authority are nothing new, reflecting age-old struggles between truth and deception. While skeptics may seek to redefine reality according to their own preferences, the enduring relevance of biblical principles serves as a steadfast anchor in an ever-changing world. Let us approach these debates with open hearts and minds, seeking truth above all else, for therein lies the path to genuine enlightenment and understanding.
We Are MythVision
I want to know where Kipp found that cool Astro Boy shirt? I watched the cartoons in the early 60s. "Go go go, Astro Boy!"
Where did Dr. Kip get an Astroboy t-shirt? Is Astroboy making a comeback? I haven’t seen Astroboy in 60 years.
[edit] I see they made an Astro Boy animated film in 2009. Even the wise are drawn to Astro Boy’s mysterious power to create a vacuum where there should be entertainment.
His t shirt triggered me back to my childhood. Astro Boy, Eighth Man, Ultra Man….
There was also a bit of a revival and some new merch arrived with the anime adaptation of Naoki Urasawa's Pluto which came out in the past year or two iirc. (it's a great adaptation, and I highly recommend both the anime and the manga). If you'ce unfamiliar, Pluto was an adaptation of the Astroboy story The Greatest Robot on Earth in Urasawa's signature style.
Same with John the Revelator, he was talking about HIS times, about the Romans. they werent talking about the future, it applies to what was going on in their worlds. Many things were taken from Babylonian and Sumerian gods/religion/stories, very interesting to know more about bible's roots.
Wrong... he was talking about the past.
I know what the source material is the Bible is based on....
Revelation 1:19 things which you have seen (Past) things which Are( present)
Things that will be HEREAFTER (future)
Revelation 4 and on is future
@@johnfitzgerald2426 The 1st beast(from the sea) has 10 horns and on those horns 10 crowns....
The Greek informal for year is hroniá...
It is saying that he had a 10 year reign....
I know who he was.... he pre-dates Rome.
@Highspergamy the prince of Grecia will rise from the bottomless pit and he will be behind the antichrist leading a confederacy of 10 nations against Israel
I would highly recommend James Tabor's 31 part series 'Bible Prophecy Through the Ages' for a good general overview of the problems with 'end-times' prophecy.
35:20 2 Esdras does not say (that Daniel was told) that the 4th empire is Greece.
See 2 Esdras 12: 10-12 [Gabriel] said to me, “This is the interpretation of this vision that you have seen: The eagle that you saw coming up from the sea is the fourth kingdom that appeared in a vision to your brother Daniel. But it was not explained to him as I now explain to you or have explained it.
I am reading in English of course, so I certainly could be mistaken... but it sounds to me like 2 Esdras is saying "Daniel was not given the interpretation, but I'm interpreting it for you now." Josh is saying (that 2 Esdras is saying) "I'm correcting the interpretation that Daniel was given." Regardless, 2 Esdras does not say (that Daniel was told) that empire 4 is Greece.
I am just reading Daniel’s book now, goin through the Bible from page 1, it is a fascinating part ofthe Bible
And so often misunderstood. How can chapter 7 refer to Antiochus Epiphanes? The 4th Empire can't be Greece, because Greece is obviosly the 3rd empire (4 heads in chapter 7, 4 horns in chapter 8). The 4th empire comes after Greece, it is Rome. The Antichrist comes out of Rome, and there is someone, who fits the prophecy.
The papacy changed times and laws, persecuted the saints, blasphemed God, had power for 3.5 times (Revelation 12:6,14; Ezechiel 4:6) from 538 to 1798, when it received a mortal wound, which was healed (Revelation 13). And if you add together the letters of the Pope's title, "Vicarivs Filii Dei", you get the number 666.
@@DominikKoppensteiner if i add it up it’s 16 so if i reduce it to one number it’s 7
How did you get 666?
@@anikomattison7568
I = 1
V = 5
X = 10
L = 50
C = 100
D = 500
Vicarivs Filii Dei (or Vicarius; the Romans used the V for the U):
VIC(ar)IV(s) = 5+1+100+1+5 = 112
(f)ILII = 1+50+1+1= 53
D(e)I = 500+1 = 501
112+53+501=666
Was this video slowed down?
I know what this video will be about, but for a half second I thought, “They mean Dan McClellan is a massive problem for Bible believers”. 😂
Yes
Kipp's shirt is spectacular
Oh. I thought Astro boy referred to Derek’s haircut.
I don't know how believers can admit that Daniel and other parts of the Bible aren't what they were initially claimed to be and still say, "It doesn't matter. It's still meaningful and relevant."
Where on earth is Kipp Davis getting the idea that King Nebuchadnezzar didn’t remember his dream? It doesn’t say that anywhere in the text.
If Daniel is a problem for believers, it does not seem well-argued here. The problems of this discussion seem to be: 1. Use of Esdras to interpret anything authoritatively. 2. Assuming Greece as the fourth kingdom, which seems a minority belief of Christians. 3. The assumption that the penitential prayer is not Daniel when it actually fits perfectly in Daniel 9. 4. The vague mention that 11:35 and subsequent as not fulfilled did not help any argument 5. Mention of some stuff being the yet-future event - which I see as inaccurate interpretation. It is bad for these guys to ridicule scripture based on misinterpretations of it. 6. The assertion as ultimate truth ideas that Kipp should only assert as probable from his perspective.
Ridiculing scripture based on misinterpretation is all these guys have and so that is what they go with.
@@carstenstampe My point about misinterpretations concerns Christian's not understanding the text correctly or consistently. Sure, the point carries over to the atheist use of those misinterpretations to make their points. For example, if think the mention of four corners of the earth means the earth is square, the atheists can take this to mean the bible says the earth is square. Any argument they build on that idea then is a flop. The other problem I saw is that these PhDs do not recognize scripture as another testimony of historical events and may be more accurate than other sources on history -- or may be highlighting details when other writers of history may go into greater details or address unrelated details. Mostly, my points are for showing inquisitive minds the potential problems in the views shared in the video.
@@mikeswhitneyThe Bible is nowhere close to be reliable enough to be considered a trustworthy historical source, specially the Old Testament. The Illiad and the Aeneid may be even more reliable even despite mentioning gods and nymphs all the time too.
@@carstenstampeWhat you call misinterpretation is doctrine or dogma for other Christian denominations...and vice versa. You folks can't even agree among yourselve and often won't cross check in good faith other than to attempt to prove others as satanic.
@@MrAlepedroza You read things backwards. The skeptics have so often been found wrong when thinking the scriptures are inaccurate on historical details. I guess you will side with the wrongthinkers. I've not investigated all the times the skeptics are wrong but it may be more often than not that the skeptics rely on wrong interpretations of scripture to find that as an indication that scripture is wrong. If you are so skeptical about scripture accuracy you cannot hardly trust any history before the 19th century either.
@35:35 "...Daniel thought it was Greece"
that brought to mind
John 12:21-31
20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgment of this world:
Matthew 12:36-37. Matthew 6:33. When you tell me that you me. Psalms 144:9. Hebrew 5:13. Hebrew 6:18. Hebreo 4:12. Malachi 1:11?
Could you do a video on Steven Hawkings book the grand design and the debates that it started about his assertions about the laws of gravity and the explanation of physical existence arising due to the operation of natural laws and that the Big Bang was an inevitable consequence of the laws of physics. So, question arose that, did the laws of physics existed before creation or before the point of origin of the universe and if yes then we have replaced on entity (god) with that of another (gravity) as the creator of the universe. This is a quote from Steven Hawkings: "Because there are laws such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going." So, debate over the pros and cons of Hawkings about this would be very interesting.
loving Derek's hoodie 😅
0:33 This intro was terrifying lol
I can’t follow this 😮
It jumps from one person to another and it is hard to follow .😮
I really love this channel. I dont like preaching. Every time a prostilyzer comes toward me I leave. But these discussions are much more engaging.
Kipp's Astroboy t-shirt is awesome.
I love that bandana and goatee!
I’m going to become a Patreon supporter of you now
You’re doing good works
Excuse the Bible pun
Not intended
Weren't multiple copies of Daniel found in Nag Hammadi Egypt dated first century bc therefore Daniel must have been written at least second century bc?
167 BCE is 2nd century BC.
I forget the proper name,but Nebucanezer some think had a werewolf syndrome,that drove him into the wilderness.Its interesting the connection of worship the moon God and the word lunacy.
By the way, did they speak Aramaic in Babylon at these times, or still Acadian?
My mom, a gifted biblical scholar, insisted every night, that it was, " Shadrack, Mishak and to-bed-we-go."
it does say things like the lowest of mankind and a stone that would replace the statue
My preacher dad took daniel as gospel, But had to include a time jump where Antiochus Epiphanies Was really a future despot 2k years later that would invade a new jewish temple and bring about the tribulation. But maybe it was just a failed prediction from the second century bc. hmmm....
Daniel was written by Bernie Taupin.
Can someone explain why the portions of Daniel that are written in Aramaic pose a problem? Wasn't Aramaic spoken and widely around the Jews were in Babylonian captivity?
What’s with the zombie scene in the opening?
What I’m interested in hearing is what 21st-century science is showing on the shroud of Turin, I have been studying apologetics for 40 years, and I am amazed at the evidence Stephen better than the anthropic cosmological principle
Thanks Church GPT
which texts in daniel and ezra say that greece is the last power and later that the romans is the last worldpower before gods kingdom would come
Under what grounds are you saying this is second century BC???
I am not religious at all, but I find all mythologies/religions fascinating. I thought the Dead Sea scrolls were found to be forgeries.
Loving the アトム tee shirt, Dr Kipp.
The reason for the change from Daniel 7 to 8 is obvious. In the last verse of Daniel 7, he changes sides.
Funny how it took until the 1850's before Archeologists found out what Daniel knew in the 6th century regarding Belshazzars existence, and that he was in fact the heir to the throne.
Herodotus never mentioned him, but Daniel knew who he was long before Archeology proved it.
Excited about the applications of Ai into comparison of the script. A great time to be alive
Remember the Gemini A I. depicted George Washington as a black man when asked to create a image. The programmers bias affects the result.
38:20 Agreed! I'm fairly certain about everything I'm writing here, but I could be mistaken. The book of Jubliees was written about the same time Daniel was written. There is a copy a Jubilees dating to 110-115 BCE using Paleography. It claims to be further revelation from Moses. It was revered by the Essenes, just decades after it was written. This parallels the late Daniel hypothesis quite amazingly.
Joseph smith produces a book and it’s accepted immediately
As ever, incisive scholarship cuts straight through pathetic apologetics.
Btw, I did the voice over for the prayer of Nabonidas in Kipp's show - but there wasn't the space in that one to explain more about him ... Thanks for all the extra info now 🙂
Psalm 123:4 Our soul has had more than enough of the scorn of those who are at ease, of the contempt of the proud
Could “ father” mean spiritual father, as in mentor?
Imagine a self proclaimed scholar not knowing the difference between copying stories and having different accounts of the same stories.
Ask Tovia Singer about that
😂😂
Sadly in c. 1947 an Egyptian retrieved from a Judaean Bedouin rifling through cave 2 (?) came across a copy of Daniel 1-12 with a line by line ‘pesher’ commentary inserted after each 1 or 2 verses (‘Interpreted, this refers to v.g. the Wicked Priest who attacked the Teacher upon Yom Kippur’ ..&c.) forming a fat, long single 60-foot scroll which was eventually brought to jazz-pianist cum CIA operative working out of his office in Damascus = ‘Miles Copeland Jr’ born in 1916) whose wife who held archaeology degrees swore up and down for 25 years after his death that her husband & several junior photographic CIA operatives had gone to the roof of their Damascus office building to ‘get enough sunlight’ to photograph the opened scroll and made TWO high resolution Colour photographs of all 60-feet of this invaluable scroll (causing some of the ‘edges to blow away like large pieces of ash in a stiff wind’ (!!!)
BUT…after having shewn some of the photographs to the American Embassy in Beirut representing large sections of the text for translation to be given to ancient-language experts to decipher (‘which my husband was told was written both in Hebrew & in Aramaic’ though he could not read it himself because the script was very cramped & largely in Aramaic which he was not able to read or translate with any ease of comprehension’).
His wife swore on her Bible that soon after not only the scroll itself but also BOTH Colour photos of the complete scroll mysteriously (ahem) ‘disappeared without a trace’ from our bedroom where they had been stored…where they ended up she could not say for sure -
She was only able to state that her late husband suspected the Jesuits working secretly as spies for the Ecole Biblique who had recently ‘taken over’ the Dead Sea scrolls publishing project placing ONLY Roman Catholics in charge of piecing-together then translating what was found ‘careful not to publish anything without express permission of the Ecole that might impinge upon the image of our Lord Jesus’ -
NB: the only non-Catholic on the original Ecole Biblique Dead Sea Scrolls translation team was the great Manchester & Oxford linguist John Marco Allegro (an avowed atheist) who rapidly published ALL the fragments given to him in 1960 (including ‘The Copper Scroll’ & ‘A Genesis Apocryphon’ & a pile of ‘pesherim [4Q158 to 4Q186 & layer 4Qpesher Nahum] fragments of commentaries on select verses’) without ‘express permission’ (especially the ‘copper scroll’ from cave 3) and soon fell afoul of the Ecole Biblique and peremptorily asked ‘to leave’ the group…confiscating the scrolls he held in his own possession…
Where the full scroll of the pesherDaniel may be hiding in some hidden (Vatican ?) underground safe is not known - it would be VERY interesting if these original Miles-Copeland Colour photos of the original 60-foot intact scroll ever came to light in toto-without any Vatican shenanigans like ‘removing any passages embarrassing to the Holy Mother Church’ - maybe someone reading this comment may ‘know something others do not know’ about them…
The contradictions in the Bible are no problem for most people. There are a handful of people who feel it necessary to justify their existence like William Lane Craig who care.
There are numerous contradictions in the Bible that would make it an unreliable authority. If a book contains false statements then it loses its authenticity. How can one trust the scriptures if its authenticity is in question?
@@traced78 The mass of Christians who don't care. They just blindly follow.
@@traced78 Millions of Christians just don't care. They just blindly follow.
❤
Hello! Do you happen to have debates with other sects of Christianity that don’t subscribe to sola scriptural theology like Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, both of which rely on church tradition in addition to scripture as authoritative and supplement their understanding of Christian faith with the writings of well-respected philosophers such as Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine? I ask because I can understand why many Christians who are raised with the fundamentalist sola scripture mentality go away from the faith once they get to college and can’t reconcile intellectualism with Christianity. I have, however, found that in academia many of my friends convert to Catholicism or some other Orthodox faith to reconcile intellectualism, philosophy, etc with a belief in God. I think someone like Bishop Barron or Trent Horn would be very interesting guests on your show, if you have not debated or interviewed them yet!
Daniel says three things;
1- He himself did not understand what the prophecies mean.
2- The book could not be understood until the time of the end was here.
3- Only the genuine true followers of God would understand but not until at the time of the end.
So all discussion of Daniel will avail nothing.
I've seen some mental gymnastics defending the Book of Daniel, but you just took the gold medal
@@thedude0000
Why are you ignorant as to what the Book of Daniel says, have you never read it?
@@glenwillson5073 I've read it and written papers on it. It's quite apparent that you did not watch the video...
@@thedude0000
{I've read it and written papers on it. It's quite apparent that you did not watch the video...}
Yes, you've got me there, I didn't watch the video.
The video is 44 mins long. The speakers were just fluffing about with chitty chat & I was not wanting to waste time & chew through data listening to that. I admit, I did get a bit impatient.
So I thought I would just make a fundamental observation re Daniel & prophecy which many people seem to be blissfully unaware of.
Your following response, indicates you may be one of them.
{I've seen some mental gymnastics defending the Book of Daniel, but you just took the gold medal."}
This is what I said;
"Daniel says three things;
1- He himself did not understand what the prophecies mean.
2- The book could not be understood until the time of the end was here.
3- Only the genuine true followers of God would understand but not until at the time of the end.
So all discussion of Daniel will avail nothing."
I was going to cite verses in support of my claims, but you of all people should be able to tell me what the relevant verses are and should be able to demonstrate they don't say what I claim.
So, I'll leave it up to you.
>2 Esdras 12:10-12 is the “correction” of Daniel’s prophesy. The angel says it was not explained to Daniel the same way that it is being explained to Esdras. Greece and Rome are not mentioned specifically but it’s clear the writer is addressing a problem with Daniel’s prophesy.
>Ezekiel 14:14 mentions Noah, Daniel, and Job as bastions of righteousness. Seems kind of an odd grouping and odd timing; the time setting of Ezekiel is virtually simultaneous with young Daniel and friends getting started in Babylon. ~6th year of first wave of exiles.
>Bel and the Dragon is a trip. It includes a version of Daniel and the lions den, where the prophet Habakkuk makes a stew in Judaea, is flown to Babylon by angels clutching his hair to feed the stew to Daniel in the lion’s den.
Daniel did not prophesy falsely. He prophesied, that the little horn Antichrist comes out of Rome, and he was right. It is not Daniel, who is wrong, it is the majority of churches, who are wrong, who think he was talking about Antiochus IV.
I think it's fascinating how every other source of a particular story is plausible but we must always doubt the reliability of the Bible for some reason. Can someone tell me why?
your premise is wrong. ancient texts often are or become implausible
@@5naxalotl not sure what you mean as you're saying that another ancient source is more implausible than another??
"Plausible" in what sense? They aren't suggesting other ancient myths actually happened as written; they're explaining the evolution of storytelling that led to the books we have today.
@@davesfriendhal It always seems that the stories worth remembering are in the Bible but the narrative is that somehow the biblical stories are not true because some other similar stories are more plausible. It just seems more plausible that the Biblical stories are true because they stood the test of time. The other ones are fictional or a little distorted. Seems more obvious to me that people before us would have wanted the truth to be preserved.
@@remainhumble6432 You seem to be starting off from the very dangerous position of assuming a story is true or meant to reflect a literal lived experience. You also seem to be assuming that's what other people believe when they are critical and point out literary sources. But maybe Im misunderstanding you. I'm not sure where they do what you're talking about in the video.
No hate but I really wish you’d tone down your titles. When I share these with Christians, they’re often immediately put off by how the titles look. Again no hate just my opinion
My name is Daniel! 😀
Doesn't appear that way
read between the lines dan
why was it canonized?
@mythvisionpodcast 😢😢😢 your scholars are too far away from the mic. Causing huge echo.
Its a good idea to have them together for the energy but they need some direction on how to podcast. Maybe a table between? Maybe they want their laptops. But definitely get closer to the mic. I hope this helps!