The Book of Daniel as a Pious Fraud
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- Опубліковано 5 лип 2021
- Of books included in the canon of the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament, the Book of Daniel was the last to be written. By putting visions into the words of characters who lived centuries earlier, the book's authors were able to "predict" events that had already occurred in order to give credibility to additional predictions about the immediate future. Will look at the consequences of the inclusion of this kind of literary prophecy for adherents of Abrahamic faiths who have read such predictions literally.
What's interesting is that Joseph starts off as a slave and becomes an interpreter of dreams and ends of as the right hand of the pharoah, and then daniel starts off as an exile of judah but because of him being an interpreter of dreams he too is elevated to being the prime minister of a vast kingdom... Abraham Isaac and Jacob all have the same infertility story with the owmen they loved... Abraham lies about Sarah being his sister, and so does Isaac who lies that Rebekah is his sister. There's also stories that repeat in ways where there's a travelling male who stays with a father of a daughter and the father wants the stranger to stay longer than he is scheduled. This idea of repeating HAS to be literary devices and not coincidence.
This is called typology. It takes earlier exemplary persons and remodelles their behaviour and features unto later character to mark them as similarly exemplary and important.
@@johannesrosenbaumI wish they just stuck to the facts. Credibility is damaged when you realise they made at least some of this stuff up for effect.
@@undercoverbrother67Effect is the primary purpose of scripture.
@@johannesrosenbaum l grow up in the black churches in the early 70s now know Jesus is a fictional characters who never existed. Blacks favourite word is Jesus Jesus Blacks second favourite word is the devil the devil 👿.
@@anthonymarlowe6986Jesus is not fictional, Jesus mythicism is a fringe view among academics because the existence of Jesus is very well attested by pre-Pauline creeds, Paul's letters, Gospels, Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus, Lucian, Porphyry etc.
‘Daniel’ was the first book of the Bible I’ve read, at 7 years young. I also had a comic book version of the narrative part of the book.
I’ve grown to find that Apocalyptica brought way more harm than benefits to human kind.
I only read comic book versions of the Bible
Dan McClellan do you know
The thing that makes these lectures so informative and entertaining is the pure enthusiasm you have for history. It's a testimony to how passion ripples out and touches others. Thank you for sharing your insights and the fruits of your study. The more I listen, the more the pieces of the historic puzzle re-form and reshape themselves. The spirit of the message is eternal. Humankind's struggle to understand its meaning is what shows up in these texts that were written, rewritten, and revised once again to fit a narrative near and dear to their interpretation.
The problem with the pious fraud theory is that the book of Daniel calls the river Tigris "Hiddekel". No one in the 2nd century BC called it by that name.
This lecture provided additional information to what I had been made aware of through the years. As a whole the channel is suitable for christians and non-christians alike, which is quite a rare find nowadays.
As someone who has been brought up Christian, but changed myself to be an atheist (to attain a more closed / contingent worldview with what we know from science), I still find myself retaining an interest in the history of religion: I could not agree more! He certainly is delivering the goods!
I heard a different interpretation of the Gold headed statue.
The gold head was obviously Babylon.
The silver was the Medo-Persian empire.
Since the Medes were kings of the the Persians, hence the shoulders and two arms.
The Bronze was the hellenistic kingdom.
Because the bronze was the torso the four kingdoms after Alexander the great is depicted as the two legs and arms that always start at the torso.
The legs of iron represents the Roman empire. The two legs being the dual capitols of Constantinople and Rome.
And the feet of clay and iron being a dual Anglo-American empire. Like iron but being infused with clay, making it weaker.
Usually the first question on this is:"What about all the other empires in history and around the world"
And the answer is:"They had nothing to do with the Bible and it wasn't their God."
The answer given is incorrect. The good answer is that these empires were the powers that suppressed the Jews and Bible believing Christians
good points. but my understand of the question regarding all the other empires, is that all the other empires did not impact or control the extent of the known world in terms of such a vast expanse of politics and religion. aka they were not international standard status in their time of ruling. where as the Summers/Sumerians= Babylonian empire and all the others that followed (eg Medo-Persinas, Greek , Roman, and Modern Day Iron and Clay) was a dominant force (and Remains today) well beyond their locality (eg Globally) remains a controlling force.
From my understanding (Starting we Neo-Babylonia Empire Time Periods), in terms of linguistics and writing systems, the international language reading and writing system was Akkadian and cuneiform. not to mention mathematics, trigonometry astronomy, astrology, medicine, alchemy, was long in use and they had libraries and libraries of records pertaining to those systems of knowledge and practice, long before the Greek (classical era & Hellenistic) empire/culture. Actually the Greeks got their alphabet from the Phoenicians (ancestors of modern day Lebanon/Lebanese people), which were a Canaanite - northern sematic peoples. Also don't think in terms of Greeks being one people one nationality, or the Babylonians only being Chaldeans etc etc... just like in a modern day context Australians, Americans , Indians etc are multicultural under a national banner but the people themselves are of many ethnicities who identify as American citizens etc etc etc. It's been that way from the beginning of time where Politics are concerned. Various conflicting Terminology over time is what confuses all the pieces of the puzzle.
Does anyone know what software Mr. Hamer uses to make all his charts and graphs?
Adobe Illustrator, as per the q&a most closest to this comment (few weeks back)
totally unrelated: is there a lecture about Thoth Hermes Mercurius Trismegistus and Hermeticism? Or will there be? Any Chance?
Look up billy carson
I would differ with the speaker in one point. I have an overall paradigm, developed from the data, that apparently most all significant major texts have been often altered for a very precise political goal. In this sense I would disagree with the occasional implication that some of these things are thrown together with vague rationals. I don't believe in fact I know that when new beginnings and ending are added they are not to add interest, spice it up or what have you but to alter meaning. Adding a begining allows for a whole different MOTIVATION for the action being added... adding a new ending allows whole different conclusions and results to be drawn. New beginnings and new endings to texts (the part psychologically most remembered and retained) can and does completely alter the intention and meaning of the original text. This is one of standard methods of falsifying history for politic goals I won't discuss here. There are many other 'tools' regularly used by the document forger, the addition or removal of single letters to change words. The very frequent confounding of TITLES with NAMES. There is the frequent confounding of EPITHETS with NAMES. There is the frequent avoiding of family names and connections in favor of hollow epithets to hide meaningful family ties. Etc Etc. But let me point out another example of 'adding a new ending and a new beginning' to a classic text to totally change the meaning: The Illiad. Now this is an interesting very special case which LIKE YOUR EXAMPLE lets the dodument doctoring be seen very clearly and obviously such that, as you say, similar conjunctures can be supported in less obvious cases. So if you look at the Illiad as we get it officially, it is very very clear that the front and end of the document have been cut off, perhaps with some flourishes added to dress the wounds. The Illiad begins in the 9th year of the war (an illogical time to start) and doesn't tell you how the war ends! Obviously ths is not the full original text. But WE SEE alternate beginnings and endings added by COMPLETELY DIFFERENT sources and added to the story as if there is no question of their truthfullness. We really don't know how the war ends, but Greek plays tell us the very unbelievable Trojan Horse Story, the 'Greek Victory' (though Greece disappears from history thereafter for a few hundred years... odd indeed) and further events in Trojan Woman Sophicles play and in the work of a very different (unhomeric hand) the Odyssey. Similarly we don't really know the CAUSUS BELLI of the war as we just see the phrase 'Judgement of Paris' once in the Illiad and the description of what this means (which could be completely false and indeed is very mythical sounding) is found in OTHER sources. I KNOW why this is... the intent and purpose of this very calculated forgery. The same thing is done with Thucydides' Peloponessian war. It makes a FIRM POINT of calling the war 27 years long, BUT the war is actually 40 years long and the author omits the first 13 years! Surely his having not been in office those years of the war is no excuse for pretending that those war years didn't exist... he could have and would have inquired as to what happened. Also the war doesn't conclude though we of course assume a logical reason like Thucydides untimely death. But coincidentally AGAIN we don't know the real CAUSE of the war and we don't know the REAL RESULT of the war... just as cause and effect is added to the Book of Daniel. These forgeries are systematic and have a single unified purpose. They aren't casual and random. Paris Sparrow. Check my personal page for frequent posts about these topics. The speaker is welcome and encouraged to friend me!
Ever heard of paragraphs?
I'm interested in talking with you about Daniel's prophetic timeline you've mentioned in your talk... This is the first time I've ever heard this particular perspective.
Also I'm wondering what you do with Ezekiel's real time endorsement of Daniel, Maccabees' endorsement of Daniel in 2nd C, Jesus' 1st C endorsement of Daniel, Josephus' 1st C endorsement as well as the Nabonidus Cylinder and the Cyrus Cylinder.
Also I looked up Randall Helms on Daniel it seems he wrote on the gospels but not Daniel... was the Daniel piece an online article?
I'm glad you brought those points into mention. The fact remains that no matter how many different scholars and historians try to put the pieces into place by connecting the dots into a modern day explanation. it does not negate that they are not working with all the info. iv been looking into this stuff myself a long time, and have come to a conclusion that regardless of the differing Authors of the bible and the different ways of trying to discredit , question , or explain its sources and meanings. There is or must be some substance to its stories and meaning in terms of humanity as a collective and the time period were3 are living in today. There is just far too many coincidences of facts and events for it not to be something substantial. And, how is it that so many different cultures and nationality (pre-Christianity) share commonality in the stories. history, linguistics also has evidence. And in a modern day context, the biggest proof that something bigger is at play can be seen in our modern day events of the geopolitical, secular and religious world in the heart of the most controversial bit of real-estate (in the holy land). Regardless of weather you believe in God, Christianity or The Bible, the fact is that the dominant Political and Religious players have been in alignment for a long time. for the very reasons that are recorded in the scriptures. Why do you think all these wars seem to be going on? The dominating forces have to subdue the non-compliant opposing forces. It's a modern day continuation of the ancient days of the tower of Babel. One world administration.
PS does the C stand for Centaury?
@@HeartSpaceMee yes 2nd Century... 1 Maccabees 2:59 "Ananias and Azarias and Misael by believing, were delivered out of the flame. 60 Daniel in his innocency was delivered out of the mouth of the lions."
This is where Daniel and his friends are referenced past tense. A, A and M were young adults in Babylon when they were thrown into the fiery furnace and Daniel was around 80 years of age in the lion den. They were also a world away from the Maccabees in Jerusalem and the 3 Friends and Daniel in Babylon. There's no way these things could've had any co-relation in real time. Daniel does not reference the Maccabees even though they led a VERY significant revolution that is still celebrated to this day!
@@pastorsharpie wow. Cool. Yeah iv not read the Maccabees yet. It was never in the bible versions I owned. It wasn't until my son introduced me to the greek orthodox study bible that I got a lot more insight into things I'd been wondering about. So now, I don't discount other books. Like Jubilees, etc . Because the truth is that what we have today is also a result if censorship and crafted narratives throughout the ages by the conquerors of different time periods in history..
Cornish as a language has all but vanished, Welsh survives only because of a conscious movement. The same can be said of Spanish dialects, Scots and Irish.
Basque and Catalonia are not Spanish dialects. But I don't think you meant those anyway. Just had to make sure noone misunderstand this.
@@maxmeggeneder8935, I did mean them but I was referring to the languages in a general geographical sense. I meant no offence.
Welsh would still be alive regardless of conscious movements, just about as alive as it is now, but it would certainly have fewer schoolkids learning it who wouldn't learn it otherwise (and as far as I can see, never use it after leaving school).
@@danielwarren3138that seems appropriate tho after Westminster used the school system and the Welsh Not to try and kill the language
so the prophecy and predictions are not reliable and are wrong.
The lecturer's name should be here somewhere. Anyone know his name? thanks.
John Hamer
As mentioned in the lecture, the dream of the four beasts/kingdoms is the last Aramaic text in Daniel (Daniel 7). It is this chapter that details the arrogant little horn that is Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who desecrates the holy ones for 1+2+1/2 periods (years) = 3.5 years, and then the kingdom of God arrives.
It is unclear how this chapter is not contemporary with the following Hebrew text, predicting similar outcomes more elaborately within the same timelines, just adding prophetic support. The switch in languages requires a more nuanced explanation. It seems evident the Aramaic text had multiple authors at different times, some of the stories which aren't anachronistic possibly much earlier than presented, serving as the kernel of the book, and the book of Daniel at least two authors at Hasmonaic time.
Randall Buth wrote an article stating that Jesus spoke Hebrew. Hebrew died completely about 400 and not as early as the speaker suggests.
obviously, The "kingdom of God"...did NOT arrive. what do you think of that, "unapologetics"?
Great lecture, much to consider here
If I could suggest content for a future lecture it would be a thorough critique on the Divine validity of the Book of Mormon
Thanks Aaron. We explore the historicity, authorship, and context of the BOM in these lectures www.centreplace.ca/lectures-mormonism, but yours is a great suggestion. We'll plan to add it to the library.
@FRED LIMA thanks for sharing, Fred. I am very familiar with this timeline. However, I fall back on Matt 24:36
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."
@FRED LIMA your lord told his followers that he will return during their lifetime
@@kinanshmahell8065 Where? Back that up with an example or stand down.
@@davidrobbins3018 mathew 16:28
So, the date that I’ve heard the book of Daniel was written was 165-164 b.c.and if is contained in the Septuaginta, which was translated around 280 b.c., how can Daniel have been written after it was translated?
seeminly the translation of the Thora started in the 3th century BC, the rest of the Tanach took a few centuries more.
@@kamion53The original Septuagint was the translation of just Torah. The much later Septuagint translation by the Church was in early 300's AD and was the entire Tanak. The first one either burned with the Alexandrian library and synagogue or it was stolen. Consensus is it burned but Im a skeptic.
@@debrapaulino918 I think you are confusing the Septuagint with the Vulgata.
the Septuagint was intended for the Greek speaking Jews in Diaspora, which more or less started after Alexander the Great.
The Vulgata was intended for the Latin Church and translated from the Tanakh at about 400 CE.
@@kamion53 She is correct and you are mistaken.
Why does Daniel get to be a pious fraud but Dionysius get labeled "psuedo"?
Because they like mythology but not the word of God. I don't know why this dude keeps popping up in my feed. All his lectures are anount the same thing, relegating the bible to fake or fraud and constantly trying to prove it's nothing but compilations of past myths. Now you know this guy's whole teaching without watching hour after hour of his droning lectures.
He does it because most people understand myths but actually believe the Bible to be written by God and cannot be questioned.
@@deborahdean8867A collection of myths along with Neolithic, bronze-age and early iron-age oral traditions is an appropriate way to describe the bible - at least the old testament.. The new testament is more of a Roman empire/hellenistic written version of the game telephone - full of hearsay and savior-legends. And all that has been thrown into a historical blender of thousands of years of translations, transcription errors and even politically and religiously convenient editing until biased theologians and scholars (but male only) without any scientific or objective means, determined what they felt was the inspired word of their mysterious God, and which conveniently agreed with what had become the traditions and practices they wanted to maintain in the early centuries AD.
Don't let the Fundamentalists hear you. What about the stories about Daniel in the Apocrypha? The Great Disappointment was an account of predictions based on Daniel that didn't work. Dom-Daniel was the college in magic, under the sea, that witches attended. In "The Sword in the Stone," Merlin calls Madame Mim "a double first at Dom-Daniel."
You fell into my feed, I really enjoyed this lecture, thank you so much
How is Daniel the last when it is followed by Ezra? Why do we assume the Bible false when it contradicts history? Isn't history also based on our faith in its authors?
See Gunnar Heinsohn Toronto Conference.
Our chronology & history of the first millennium are in disarray.
Archeology spent a hundred years fooling around with what they were told was history.
Christians arguably should consider the Deuterocanon (eg. Tobit, WIsdom of Solomon, Judith, etc.) canonical:
(A) Most of the Deuterocanon was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Plus, the three special Septuagint sections of Daniel (eg. Susanna) are quite different in their two ancient Greek translations (Old Greek Version and Theodotion's), implying a Semitic original rather than the Greek translators merely copying a Greek original.
(B) The Deuterocanon was typically written in about the 2nd-1st century BC, like during the Maccabean period. Perhaps some Jews in that period, like Maccabean Jews, considered the Deuterocanon to be canonical, and only later the rabbis formed a consensus that the Deuterocanon was noncanonical.
(C) The Christian OT canon should arguably be fixed by the Christian community, rather than by the rabbinical community. In Matthew's Gospel, Jesus considered John the Baptist the last of the prophets who came before Him, yet in the NT, Jesus notes that the pharisees did not accept John the Baptist. The rabbinical idea is that the line of OT prophets ended centuries earlier with Malachi.
(D) The NT makes very many allusions to the Deuterocanon. In Hebrews 11:35, Paul writes: "Women received their dead by resurrection. Others were tortured, refusing to accept release, in order to obtain a better resurrection." Although the part about women receiving their dead refers to the story of ELisha raising a woman's son, 2 Maccabees 7 has a story where a woman's sons were killed for refusing to violate Torah and the sons expected everlasting life. The first son said, "...the King of the universe will raise us up to a renewal of everlasting life, because we have died for his laws.”
(E) Church fathers talked about different Deuterocanonical books as if they were canonical or cited them in a straightforward way as if they recorded sacred history. The Muratorian Canon from the mid-late 2nd century AD is the first known list of the Christian canonical books and it considers the Wisdom of Solomon to be canonical.
(F) The 7th Ecumenical Council approves the canons of the Council of Trullo, and Trullo in turn names lists of canonical books, like that of Carthage and that of St Gregory the Theologian's letter. All of the Eastern Orthodox Deuterocanon can be found approved in those various canon lists (eg. Carthage's list). However, St Gregory the Theologian's letter instructs its recipient that he shouldn't consider the OT books outside of the Protocanon (ie. outside of the rabbis' and Protestants' OT canon) to be canonical. My own conclusion therefore when reading the Council of Trullo is that it approves Christians considering the Deuterocanon to be either canonical or noncanonical. In effect, the Deuterocanonical's canonicity is optional. Thus, a modern theologian would be within the bounds of the 7th Ecumenical Council whether he considered the Deuterocanon to be canonical or not.
(G) Eastern Orthodox theologians have a range of views as to whether the Deuterocanon is canonical. Modern Greek theologians typically consider it canonical, whereas modern Russian theologians typically consider it noncanonical. However, both Greeks and Russians consider it to be part of Christian Tradition, and so either way, the Orthodox Church treats it as an authority instead of following Luther's "Sola Scriptura" theory.
David as a real historical person? Seems like a tear down of facts might reveal something.
Please tell me this lecturer’s name. I want to view more of his videos. He’s very good at his trade. Bill Bryan
John Hamer, pastor of the Toronto “Centre Place” congregation of the Community of Christ.
@@markcrego9397 It looks like he has a quite a few books on history, especially uncovering the fabrication thereof.
Note: the interpretation of the Statue of Gold, Silver, Iron and Clay doesn't have to recommend different kingdoms... that's just one interpretation and other interpretations copy cat that... but different interpretations are possible of course.- the explicit interpretation is Daniel's not inherent to the dream. The interpretations is obviously insulting to the Hellenic kingdoms which is we assume the intent.
Feet of clay is the roman empire after it become weak. And the stone is Islam (Islamic power).. a stone cut without human hand that destroyed the statue . So prophecy fullfilled.
@@xS146roarIslam is terribly human.
Our common expression "feet of clay" for a disabling flaw is from The Book of Daniel, presumably via the King James Bible.
The title of,
The Idol with Hands of Clay (1923) a story about an incompetent surgeon by Frederick "Elephant Man" Treves,
is a nod to Nebuchadnezzar's vision.
@@alanpennie8013
Feet of clay is the roman empire after it become weak. And the stone is Islam .. a stone cut without human hand that destroyed the statue . So prophecy fullfilled.
I wonder if anyone has ever thought about taking all the books of the Bible both Hebrew and Christian and doing a computer analysis of the writing to determine how many authors were involved in each book. I think that would solve many of the mysteries if we could determine where a text is clearly shown to be interpolated or the work of many authors. I think many of these hypotheses could be verified or disproven in a more scientific way
Do you think those books were written like a Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings series over a few years? Some of those books go back thousands of years based on oral traditions. Not to mention the fact that they were written in different dialects and languages over millenniums, how would a computer help? You are applying modern thinking and oversimplifying something that is very complex and esoteric in nature. It is almost insulting to the works.
Scholars do use computer analysis, at least on Christian texts. I’m sure it’s fine on Old Testament as well. This is a fairly mainstream technique in literary criticism.
Try "Caesar's Messiah" and the Mythvision channel for numerous PhDs and authors working on that very subject. In the same manner as John was looking at the literary breakdown of Daniel and its various authors; there is some amazing work on who wrote the Gospels. Google "Who Wrote the Gospels". Incredible.
Who is this speaker? What is his background and credentials? excellent lecture.
Keep in mind that Jesus himself called Danial a prophet in Matthew 24:15
And Mark's central thesis is the scroll of Daniel.
😢😢😢
So what?
what I also don't like , is how modern church pastors re =interpret Daniel's prophecy into modern times and think that this 70 wees applies to our day and age. It doesn't. its the old testament. Its talking about the antiochioses who sat in the ancient Hebrew temple chair and stopped practices. Then came the Macchabees. Thats it. Its not a prophecy about the antichrist of End times. How do they do the STRETCH of their mind and re interpretation?
[ANTIOCHUS IV]
The narrator considers whether the three special Septuagint Sections in Daniel (like "Susanna and the Elders") were written in Greek or in Semitic (eg Hebrew). The narrator notes that the Sections have Hebraisms, but he asserts that this could be because the author was writing in Greek with Semitic as his native language. Strong evidence that the three Sections were written in Semitic, not Greek, is that there are two quite different ancient Greek translations of these three sections: 1) The "Old Greek Version" and 2) Theodotion's mid-2nd century version. Theodotion translated the main, Protocanonical portion of Daniel (Daniel Chapters 1-12) quite closely into Greek, so one would expect that he would also give an accurate translation of the three special LXX sections (eg. Susannah). Further, Theodotion made his translation after the Old Greek version was written. If Theodotion and the Old Greek Version were working from a Greek original (like if the Old Greek Version were original), then these two Greek versions (Theodotion's and the Old Greek version) would be the same, since their compilers would have simply copied down the same Greek words.
Are you asserting that Theodotion's Daniel is later or earlier, and less or more accurate?
minor slide error: 1:09:57 1st line "male goal" supposing this is "male goat"
You sir, are a scholar and a treasure. You have your topic nailed, and you use diagrams beautifully. But, your name isn't anywhere.
Do you author books?
It could of happened that way. Maybe Daniel shit his pants and the lions looked at each other and said, "You go first." "No you go first." "No, I insist. You first." "No way. I'm half barfing right now."
@Razor Face Regional slang like saying "ax" instead of "ask". I forgot this was a Canadian site. I'll make sure I use proper King's English in the future.
@Razor Face At least one person here and a sense of humor. :-)
WHAWHA
or maybe they put in two Lions of Judah who started to discuss if the offered food was gosher or not.
"wait a second, this book of Daniel is different" this one has him riding on a plane"
"What a Cartesian Plane?"
"I guess, but wait ..at night !?!?"
Believe it or not this was the high point in the talk - but it barely got my blood running - sorry, I love the intentions, but I'm just not sure of them. and as I like to listen to these while doing other chores (sorry) I don't get much other than a flat baterry 🙏😁
Thx for your conference. Very informativ
Funny to hear the Persians call the Greeks "cosmopolitan." Ouroboros indeed!
Jacopo Leone warned us that "they" would try to discredit the Scriptures, just as this person is doing.
MythVision on You Tube does a good job of it every day.
what do you know of the Jehovah`s Witness version of the Book of Daniel
Thank you John Hamer, for your excellence in research and presentation. The historicity of the Bible, the foundations of Christianity, and the vast history of ancient Egypt, Babylonian, Greek, and Roman civilizations is an amazing subject, one that has captivated my interest over the past year. I have watched a hundred hours of video on the subject by some very well educated PhD's and authors. I bet from your stats you can see that I have watched quite a few of your videos and find them fascinating.
I was especially drawn to the foundations of Christianity in the Roman Empire, and how they co-opted Greek Mythology and wrote themselves into the picture. I did not know that the story of the Trojan Horse actually came from Roman foundation myth rather than from the Greeks. i still have a ways to go yet because it is a vast subject. I am going to look into the foundations of Greece next.
It is clear to me that the Christian Religion was assembled by the Romans, and used as a vehicle to capture the Empire and replace the polytheistic culture of Paganism with a mono-theistic culture of Christendom. It is much easier to manage for Rome. The Romans were builders, and they built things to last. Christianity is perhaps one of their greatest accomplishments because it survives to this day. The religion was held in strict control for so many years, but now with the internet we are able to collaborate and learn from those who are doing real and meaningful research in this field, not the same old talking points from Christian apologists that I have heard a hundred times in various churches. I can't tell you how many pastors I have heard shoehorn the book of Daniel into their Revelations studies, ending up with scenarios that sound like the Timothy LaHaye fictional "Left Behind" series. To think that a large number of voters and congressmen believe this scenario and apply their insight into the Middle East peace process is scary.
I have found a lot of talk about the Caesar's Messiah theory, and even the Piso authorship of the New Testament Gospels. When you see how skilled the Romans were with their propaganda and synchronism in order to fabricate new gods by combining traits of gods from adjacent cultures, It certainly seems plausible that the Gospel of Mark was fabricated as part of the plan to end the Zealot's and Messianic Jew's quest for their messiah after the decimation of Israel in 70 AD. We saw in this video a lot of evidence of authors who are tempted to back date stories to prove the authenticity of prophesies, and their willingness to combine disparate stories from various authors to create a book for public consumption. I am digging into the questions of the origin of Christianity and trying to put together a timeline that makes sense. With so much of the Gospel hanging on the books of Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Daniel, if they are fabricated then what sort of foundation is that for the Gospel?
Do you believe that Jesus was a character made up by authors in the Roman Imperial court after the death of Nero and during the beginning of the Flavian dynasty in order to end Judaism? Or do you believe that Jesus was an actual character who somehow came to teach in Galilee whose story was folklore that was later embellished, and that all the miracles from competing religions were added to his resume? Or do you believe that Jesus did all those miracles and that similar stories from the surrounding empires were all fakes, even though they came before the Jesus story. This is what Christians will tell you and what the church teaches them.
Thanks!
Thank you! We're glad you are finding value in our content!
Hi Scott, Weren’t those stories about other figures performing miracles written much later than in the case of New Testament?
@@Bhojani1 I suppose there are always such stories. I have read recounts of stories of some performing miracles in the 1800s and 1900s, so who knows? I was referring to Paganism in general, and the fact that up to Rome, all of the empires had their religions as a feature of the government and the "media" was controlled by the govt. Many of their "gods" had offspring that preformed miracles.
All scripture is inspired of God, beneficial for teaching, reproving, for setting things straight, for discipling in righteousness.
Omgoodness these Boomers can't save their questions til the end?? 😳
Please cut us some slack. We grew up under the cloak of Christianity and it is only now, after the past decade or two, that the curtain has been pulled back and we can see what has been going on. I struggled to fit into the Christian mold and it was a difficult, frustrating journey. I was kicked to the curb and asked to find another church more than once for asking simple and logical questions. Now to see what has been carefully guarded for nearly two millennia unpeeled and exposed is so liberating, and we have so many questions that are dying to be answered. Peace, bro. God help us, we have way to many people in Congress who have been sold bum scoop and are negotiating our way through current affairs. It is scary.
Daniel and Revelations have caused more grief than any other myths that came out of antiquity. Isaac Newton’s math gave him the year 2060 as the end, so we have 40 years to repent.
Newton wasnt what he appears to be. I wouldnt go by his timeline, why? We have the best advantage of all, EYE witnessing the beginning of the birth pains.
It'll see me out.
I think Newton's calculation was rendered invalid because he used an incorrect date or assumption.A shame, because he spent a lot of time on it
When Eve bit the forbidden fruit of knowledge of good and evil, she saw all the splendor civilization would provide mankind. All the wealth, all the luxury, all the leisure, up until our day and time. So she offered the fruit to Adam. When Adam bit the fruit, he saw WAR. Perpetual war, one war after another. Every war man would fight, up until our day and time. It was at this moment, he realized what God meant, when he said. " Eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and you will surely die." Morality brings us together only to fight over who's right and who's wrong. Love is salvation
" Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor like you love yourself. " A society based on love is superior, to a civilization built on morals. Civilization is the beast of Daniel and Revelations.
@@hershelfowler6257 you know that story is an allegory, right? it wasn’t literally fruit and they weren’t literally in a garden….. and also isn’t a Hebrew story, it comes from the Sumerians.
I appreciate your topics and viewpoint very much... it's that of a traditional classical scholar: i.e. balanced, logical, seeking truth rather than agenda. Rare in this world and lovely to see. I suspect the speaker is a branch of the original human race (see my paradigm) which includes original French, Italian, Greek... all the way to India, a 'modified' indoeuropean group concept but not including nw Europe which is of a distinctly different genetic lineage with different thought patterns.
The agenda are ruining The academic work
Daniel had his servants strew ashes on the floor of the temple, not flour.
Revelation do not re interpret but remind the reader of those exact prophecy since iesus is coming back in 70
The story of Bel idols is also told as Abraham proves his father, who made idol status, that these idols are not living ...
How can people claim Daniel to be a "fraud" citing 2nd century B.C. authorship when the book is already found in the Septuagint completed a century earlier?
Neither book was written like we write books today that is you sit down start at the beginning and keep writing until it's finished. Both books were written more like diaries where you just keep adding stuff to it every day and then for one reason or another you quit adding stuff then that's when the book is finished, but there is always older stuff in the book and newer stuff. In the earliest versions of the septuagint the book of daniel does not exist. it took somewhere around 200 years to write the septuagint. as soon as daniel was written it was immediately added because it was such a great story that everyone liked and it claimed to be old, which was good enough. paster john didnt go into this in detail but it's pretty interesting.
legend has it that the Septuagint was translated in the 3th Century BC, but that is just legend. the start of the translation of the Thora coulld have started in the 3th century, but the rest took a few centuries more. The septuagint surely was not finished in the reign of Ptolemy II Philadelpis. That he had something to do with it could as wel be make belief or legend.
What I know is that there were two Septuagint. The first was done in 3rd century BC and was the Torah aka first five of Moses.
Loved this lecture 👍
Who is the lecturer?
John Hamer, Toronto CoC.
I can see that Daniel was progressively pieced together from 3 different languages over a significant amount of time. Given that, what specifically makes it a "pious fraud" ? Please help me because I need to watch this again, and probably missed some key details I'm sure. And BTW I have no problem with it being a pious fraud.
Because it contains anachronisms (like the wrong order of kings, which a person living at the time would know), and because it seems very accurate until it's not. So it all reads as a contemporary author writing as an ancient author who predicted all of history until now, and then adds a "the end is near" prophecy at the end meant for the people reading it now (that ends up not happening).
You're an excellent lecturer
i thoroughly enjoyed your presentation.
MENE MENE TEKEL PERES literally means, "numbered, numbered, weighed, divided."
@Razor Face and...?
It's a bit telegraphic.
It seems to expanded roughly thus.
(Your days are) numbered x2.
(You are) weighed (and found wanting).
(Your kingdom is) divided (between The Medes and Persians).
Of course it could have referred to fields of grain, but that wouldn't have been very interesting.
This timeline does not add up to 70 weeks of years.62 weeks of years(434years) and 7 years until the end time is only 63 weeks of years,the timeliness is missing 7 weeks of years or 49 years.
It's kinda funny how before the canonization of important religious texts, people seem to be more than willing to change them around, even if it destroys the legitimacy of said texts. The facts of the world do not point to a bible that is divinely written all at the same time.
Nobody claims the Bible was written at the same time.
@@wallaceanthony4707 tons of Christians do. Believe me
@@HistoryandReviews I don't know any and I know a lot of Christians. So, to say "tons of Christians do" is definitely not accurate. Of course you could find some people that literally know nothing about the bible, but it's a small percentage.
@@wallaceanthony4707 “a small percentage “ try a majority of christians. Most popular compilation of books, letters, and poetry, barely read
@@wallaceanthony4707 your social circles are.....highly compromised Christians.
Sound level is good 👍
Nice presentation. But who is this guy? What are his credentials?
Interesting that the prophecy is almost fulfilled on time by the rededication of the temple (though not the end of the world). Inspired?
Well at least he admitted he doesnt know. And the people making these arguments dont know. They are putting forth a theory, or opinion.really. And thats what it boils down too. We know people have their biases and they work their way into these opinions, and then reputations careers, legacies and egos cause people to ruthlessly defend them.
how to explain Daniel painlessly [relatively]
He doesn't explain why there are five parts of the statue but only four beasts.
@@alanpennie8013 If I find out the answer to that problem (I intend to continue with this book ) I shall ( indubitably) let you know the answer ✌️🤞
@@gda295
That would be most kind.
Part 1 = Babylon
Part 2 = Medes and Persians
Part 3 = Greeks
Part 4 = Roman Empire
"Part 5" actually Part 2 of Part 4 = Roman Empire divided, and the appearance of the Germanic barbarian kingdoms
That means you also think Ezekiel was as he mentions him as his contemporary. This idea came from Porphyry and was refuted by Eusebius.
That doesn't necessarily follow because a pious forger will use a name of a particular early authour then try to pass his own work off as that of the famous one.
Do you know mormon Dan McClellan channel
All these ancient middle Eastern folks sure were pasty. Must not have gotten a lot of sun
Top notch.
This is a highly commendable work. Thanks for the effort you put into it.
Paris Sparrow is the name of page.
OK sorry... Was too impatient for the end of the lecture!!!.... I think you ended it well enough!!...
Did not John the Baptist have red hair?
I think you may be thinking of Esau. The twin brother of Jacob.
They faught in the womb and their mother Rachel haloed Jacob fool their father into giving Jacob Esau's blessing.
Esau was described as quite hairy and has red hair
@@babsbylow6869 Hi Babs. I did some research and you are right! By going into my search a little more, I stumbled across a scripture that gives you the impression that there were believers in reincarnation. Thank you. I have jewish friends who believe also. Very interesting.
Interesting. But too much interpretation.
1. For one, Jeremiah's reference to 70 years of exile and desolation of the land has nothing to do with the seventy weeks of years. Josephus is quite clear that 70 years of desolation followed the deportation of the Jews from Egypt in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar.
.
Ant. 11.1.1:
. [An. 536.] In the first year of the reign of Cyrus; which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon; (2) God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people: according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the Prophet, before the destruction of the city; that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar, and his posterity; and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers; and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity."
What is missing is acknowledgment of changes made to the timeline by the Persians and Greeks. 82 fake years were added to the Persian period and 26 years removed from the Neobabylonian kings. The speaker thus said that there was no king named Darius the Mede, which is false. Darius the Mede conquered Babylon with Cyrus and then ruled over Babylon for six years before Cyrus began to rule and release the Jews to rebuild. Zechariah 1 confirms 70 years from the destruction of Jerusalem expired in year 2 of Darius the Mede. This means Darius the Mede ruled for six years before Cyrus came to the throne.
In the revised records from the Persian period, the Nabonidus chronicle cryptically refers to Darius the Mede as both Ugbaru and Gubaru. It assigns 14 years as governor over Babylon which is six years as king and 8 years as governor.
You professors need to address the true timeline which per the Bible dates the return from Babylon in 455 BCE. The Jews spent 70 years in exile which Josephus confirms.
These changes were made in order to cover the fact that Xerxes and Artaxerxes I were the same king. Darius the Great died early in his reign after six years per Ezra 6:14,15. The revised history gives him 36 years.
Since you enjoy bashing the Bible you need to bash Greek historians as well. The Bible and pagan history are often incompatible.
Daniel's 70 weeks predicted the Holocaust during the 63rd week of 1940-1947!
Finally, the four beasts out of the sea are not successive world powers but concurrent world powers!!
It's funny when amateurs think they can interpret scripture. The covenant for the Israelites is 70 jubilees, 3430 years from 1435 BCE to 1996 AD. That's seven days of 490 years. The understanding of Daniel was to be sealed up until the end times.
Daniel was RESURRECTED in 1991. So when correctly understood the numbers all work out perfectly.
Correct the timeline! The return from Babylon occurred in 455 BCE. Remove 82 years from the Persian timeline: 30 years each for Darius I and Artaxerxes II, 21 years for Xerxes who was Artaxerxes, and one year for Kambyses. 82 years!!
Replace 26 years to the Neobabylonian period:
2 years for Nebuchadnezzar
16 years for Evil-Merodach
2 years for Nabonidus
6 years for Darius the Mede
Thank you.
Thankyou for such a good talk. While the bible is one of the great influences in my life (now 70+), we need to accept the human influences that are behind the growth of all the great religions that are still so important to us. As in all things, try to live by the good and ignore the extremes.
They are telling you thar dead sea scrolls Daniel was canonized just 50 to 100 yrs sooner with public ignorance lol
I'm 50 2021 and grew up with great grandma born 1864 right at civil war end.
You won't canonize a single word that way .
Its their ignorance to assume this .
But they can't say it was added any more current cause it was so widely spread by 150 bc that we still dug one up .lol
Talking about slow distribution it was no printing press .
Our bias ignorant scholars here are thinking of such cnn tactics of instant brainwashing
Read the Quran before you die
@@FoodforThought-Plus it is like the book of Mormon ,unhistorical fiction written to contradict the Bible .
@@wendymitchell8245 Read the Quran first before judging.
@@FoodforThought-Plus I have read enough to know it is just changing the main points of Christian teaching .
Forget the lions, I like the story of Kneeslap, Caddyshack and ToBedWeGo.
Heres one for you, the last empire is the british/american, so how could he possibly have known? there will be none after this and what will follow we will come to know
mike winger made a video entitled defending Daniel and destroyed critics of Daniel
Mike Winger failed miserably. Mike is a propagandist.
Mike is an apologist. Not even wrong.
Those Courtiers responsible for having Daniel thrown in the lions' den would be today's GOP (Grand Orc Party).
Those Courtiers sought racial and religious purity of the King's court.
14:33 Which is interesting because the original God of Egypt is "a ram" God.
Corresponding with the ages of the Zodiac, Jesus was around the beginning of the age of Pisces. Aries the Ram precedes that. Taurus, the Bull was a sacred animal in Mesopotamia and India before that.
@@Scott_works In the Ancient Khemetic Zodiac, Aries is Amen. In the Hindu Rashichakra, Aries is Mesha. Amen(in "Jesus' name" we pray)is a contraction of Immanuel/Emmanuel. Mesha is a contraction of Messhia/Messiah. In the bible Meshael/Mishael/Michael means who is like God?
@@Scott_works Even Micah, which is on the same page as Jon-ah whom God compared himself emotionally to.
@@Scott_works Also Meshach means who is like God?
@@Scott_works John came to bear witness about the light, he was not the light. Jesus fed the multitudes with fish (pisces)he was not the fish.
the horror of that English replacing Dutch!
and then Dutch would many onlt survive as a religious language.
He does not have any idea how stuffy the religious use of Dutch is the 1619 Dutch translation of the Bible is.
And dario had nothing to do with sirio
Jerusalem was independent
They called the romans later
I just presented Daniel to a group of Episcopalians. Got tripped up on the date of composition by a guy with an NIV bible. 😐
The virgin presenter, the Chad NIV appreciator
Thanks!
Thank you for your support!!
Scholarship.
I agree read the book by Collins
Wrong interpretation of the timeline to the end of time in the prophecy!!!!...
Lol as if you know everything
I think you got the kingdom succession wrong!!!...... The medes and the Persians ruled as one kingdom in succession!!!....not distinct!!!.... So they be as follows.... Babylon, medo -Persians, Greeks, then Rome!!!!..... After break of Rome Came the mixed kingdoms of Europe!!!.... France, Italy etc..... Which will never unite as one!!!.... Till Jesus comes to reign for a millennium!!!!!!!.....
He reigns for an eternal reign, the final 1k, being imminent, otherwise spot on.
Did you ever stop to wonder how Constantine may have believed he was Christ returning? Rome actually created two Christian Empires that lasted 1,000 years. The Byzantine and the Holy Roman. You are still full of a lot of church propaganda. Do you really expect Jesus to return and sit on a throne in Jerusalem for 1,000 years? We've been there, done that.
The East Gate of Jerusalem has long been walled in. There was a prophecy that the messiah would enter Jerusalem by that gate. There have been many conquerors of Jerusalem over the years that have broken that gate open so they could enter there. Later it would be resealed. It is the ridiculous attempts of one after another who believe they are fulfilling prophecy that was written in the bible. And there have been many, many through history to believe that they are one of the two witnesses who are to come and prophecy for 1260 days in the court of Gentiles before the return of Christ. It is insanity.
The notion that Jesus could return at any minute keeps people on the edge of their seats, keeps them coming to church, and keeps the offering plates full. How else can the Joe Osteen's of the world pay for their mansions and private jets. How else could the Mormons acquire nearly $100 billion in their war chest, supposedly waiting for Jesus to return to spend it?
This same notion compels our congressmen and senators to go to war on behalf of Christendom, to this day. It keeps them from entering agreements with nations of other religions to control our footprint on the planet. What's the point if Jesus is going to return, eliminate all opposition, and terraform the earth magically into a paradise? Jesus.
I was just going to dip in and knowing my scripture having studied in root Hebrew and not relying on others to translate was just going to call this man out for just being a hater. I instead listened to his plea as much as humanly possible and was so releaved to find his rebutals vague and way off the mark on almost every level. I am coming away thinking that anyone this man happens to convince that Daniel is not God inspired scripture is just trying to find any way possible to avoid the fact that the entire Bible is not just a book but rather the Creators message in a bottle to his much loved creation that is living side by side with unseen and very visible enemies that wish not just harm but genocide on Gods favorite creation,Mankind! Jesus warned of deception but this guy, Come on, his argument does not hold water to the discerning Christian. Hold your faith friends because it wont be much longer until that stone that the builders rejected does come and shatter the last evil kingdom set up by Satan. Be patient and watch, for he comes as a thief in the night,,,,,.....!!!!! Repent.
What denomination Church, do you have Faith in
❤❤👍👍
Actually the main and most true and meaningful (I'm sure) translation of Old Testament into Greek was done by Ptolemy Philadelphos (son of Alexander's general and brother, Ptolemy). I suspect this was a very violent (even more) and embarassing original translation which now is different. Of course with hand copying it would be quite a while before this revolutionary 'tool' for understanding Judaio-hebraic culture to the Greek World spread and was read by alot of people. I believe one of the main impetuses for burning the library of Alexandria -to destroy this translation among others. Probably it more patently revealed the inherently violent and warlike intentions of Hebraic culture for all to see and fear. This is for one discussed in the original translator's note in the King James Bible. A commentator in a learner's version of the king james bible, written recently, attributes the same translation not to Greek scholars, as told in the self-same introduction by Englishmen, but by Jewish Scholars who did it willingly with no embarassment (though the translation, I'm sure but can only guess, was probably very very different) Paris Sparrow.
An attempt to discredit the accurate prophecies contained in daniel that so many christians lean on?
Actually, there are many who have come to these conclusions. There are a growing number of scholars who are now taking on the subject of the historicity of the bible, now that we have the internet, where many can and do collaborate to fund this type of research. Previously, you needed a grant from a church or denomination to pay for the research. And if an author went outside of the established norm, they could be ostracized and put out of work for suggesting anything in the bible was not 100% God's word and infallible. For over fifteen hundred years this could get one killed.
Look at what happened to Galileo when he proved that the earth revolved around the sun. He brought his findings to the church, who accepted them. Later, once they realized that they would look like fools for teaching flat earth theory, they changed their mind and brought Galileo in. He explained that it wasn't the bible (the book of Job) that was in error, it was actually just the way the church was reading and teaching it. That made them even angrier, and they forced him to recant his findings and kept him in house arrest the remained of his life.
The modern Christian church relies on the prophesies of Jeremiah, Isaiah, Daniel, and Ezekiel to prove that Jesus is the Messiah. Once these are found out to be back-dated propaganda or religious novels for inspiration, what does that make the Gospel into?
Repentvmy friend or you will drink a full cup, and you don't want that.
The bible is full of historic events
Were you there
@@herminepursch2470 God was there.
That were already in the north
King James por favor
Do you realize a lot of this guys words are "supposedly, probable , maybe " etc. Because men love not truth God himself shall give them over to delusion so tbT they will belive lies.
@@latchmanbickram9742 If your God is willing to "give them over to delusion" then your God is crap.
interestingly, King James, whose mother was beheaded, succeeded a queen whose own mother was beheaded. James, of course, promised tolerance but delivered zero, like Elizabeth. Not good for a personality to have your mom's head cut off, especially by your dad, as in the case of Queen Bess
Who said they were jews
There are two calculations in the 70 week prophecy because of the two types of calendars used and the two languages. And by the way, BOTH calculations based on 2 different calendars in the 70 week prophecy were fulfilled by Jesus and the date of His crucifixion. So you have evidence that those prophecies were accurate. THAT should make a believer out of you.
One is 70 another 69.
If the Book of Daniel is written in the 2nd century, how could it be accepted into the Jewish canon immediately - how was it included in the Septuagint?
According to *The Bible Readers Encyclopaedia and Concordance* in my KJV Bible, the following is stated.
"Author. Conservative critics have never doubted that Daniel was the author, and the many recent findings of archaeology have verified the historicity of the book and confirmed the assurance that Daniel wrote it!"
So as Almighty God decided it was to be put into the Holy Oracles of God, in effect, it wouldn't really matter who was the author.
For....."16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for
doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all
good works".
2 Timothy 3:15-17 (KJV)
As Christ might say to those who disagree and are endlessly seeking to find faults and "Strain at gnats".
"Oh! ye of little faith why do you doubt?"...
Because your bible has been been used for atrocities and that a group of people chose the parts that they wanted. It is so easy to say well you have to go on faith if it does not make sense.
You don't have to believe the bible to beleieve in god.
@@donaldcharles3331
To believe in the One True God who "Created the heavens and the earth" you have to.
Good show brother. You did your good and proper service to our Lord YHVH/YESHUA.
11:15 Rude!!!
1 scribe x 1.5 yrs per copy at the best master at this craft. Not to mention papyrus processed to be used .
66 Copys per 100 yrs per 1 scribe .
So they are suggesting we dug one up in dead sea scrolls just 150 yrs after its creation lol
Despite canyonizing Daniel next Moses books and public had no knowledge and just accepted that? Come on stop playing idiots
Especially considering Daniel was one of the favorite prophets of Qumran community
A book doesn't become famous in a day
It's circulates and then accepted
Leaving aside prophets don't generally talk about each other but we have ezekiel saying he knows where Daniel's grave is.
Daniel has less Greek elements then it has Babylonian content
All the things that he said to give evidence for Maccabian dating can easily be challenged
Especially since
1) Daniel as a literary unity with patterns existing in visions
2) Enoch being composed in 200 BC or earlier
3) Enoch drawing on Daniel not the other way around
Daniel older than Enoch
So Daniel can't be late
@@tribeofeleazerthepriest9132 enoch is much later ad. Its not referenced in the Bible thats miss info and out of context miss translation Arian linage. 350 to 450 ad .
But yes Daniel was 538 bc so the grandchildren was helenized by 386. By 200bc was an explosion of revision and language merger. It wouldve cooked a century then under a unified revision everything would've been copied to Greek.
I suspect the book of dainel was traveling with Moses books but may not have been canonized until that massive revision in 200bc.
Every works in literature was copied from 200bc all through ptolamaic rule in Alexandria 450 ad.
The papyrus days was over and animal skin paper was affordable by this time.
@@tribeofeleazerthepriest9132 the context was flawed by the narrow septugent line they got to far removed from the context of words. By this we know the author of the book of enoch read from that flawed context.
Enoch lived 365 days. And he was no more .
By that later ptolomaiac flaw it lives on in some orthodox and at that time small Jewish in Egypt versions.
Book of enoch is much later has to be after 300 ad.
@@tribeofeleazerthepriest9132 its also placing enoch into genesis gap periods. Wrong place wrong times as well as mixing it with pre Noah times.
@@tribeofeleazerthepriest9132 i got curious dug it up and I only knew if the Ethiopian discovery of enoch but they did raw early fragments on some dead sea scrolls will a date upto 100 bc ish..
I am a true believer and nothing will ever change me .
Do you care if your beliefs are true?
I certainly do Ken
@@andrewswan4911 Then why don't you care enough to fact check anything?
@@Ken_Scaletta because I have faith Ken
Nice known you Ken
Excellent presentation. Thank-you. You provide a great historical, geographical, political, mythological, critical and literary framework within which to begin to understand this work of fiction.
The north israel was never like the south judea
Names done by the romans