Was Jesus a Created Being? Justin Peters Accepts My Challenge: My Response
Вставка
- Опубліковано 11 жов 2022
- A few weeks ago I did a rebuttal video to Justin Peters, who claimed that Word of Faith teachers teach that Jesus is a created being. I challenged him to provide evidence for that claim. On Tuesday he did a video accepting my challenge where he showed examples of what Kenneth Copeland, Perry Stone, and Jesse Duplantis said. This is my response.
Online version of Copeland's book "The Power of the Tongue - vdocuments.net/the-power-of-t...
I'm Rod Saunders, founder of Jew and Greek. I’m a musician, web developer, and a student of philosophy and economics. I recently published my first book on Amazon entitled Defending the Faith: Word of Faith Apologetics. It’s a response to the numerous charges against and misrepresentations of the Word of Faith movement and theology. I also have a CD of original music on CD Baby entitled Gates of Pearl. “Jew and Greek” is a good name because the two civilizations that influenced Western civilization the most were those of the Judeo-Christian and Greek worlds. From the Jews we received our values and a monotheistic theology, and from the Greeks we got philosophy which brought us science, sports, the arts, democracy, and economics. As a result I discuss all of the above in this blog and in my videos.
***************************
My PayPal Account (for one time donations) - rodsaunders@yahoo.com
My Patreon Account (for monthly donations) - / jewandgreek
My Blog - jewandgreek.com
My Twitter Account - / jewandgreek
My Facebook Page - JewAndGreek
My Book on Word of Faith Apologetics - www.amazon.com/Defending-Fait...
Great video Rod! Not surprising that JP didn’t do his due diligence on the “false teachers”
Thank you for all that you do and for this channel. I am a recent subscriber. It has helped me tremendously to bring clarity to these issues.
I am 45 years old and have been involved with the Word of Faith movement for all of my life. I’m a second generation Rhema graduate as my parents attended in the early 80’s and were pastors after graduating . Once I graduated from Rhema in 1998 I worked on staff at Rhema/Kenneth Hagin ministries for 8 years. I worked in the media duplication department that produced all of Brother Hagin’s messages on cassette tape and CD. Part of my job was quality control of the messages produced. Therefore, it included listening to all of his messages. I listened to his messages for 8 hours a day for 8 years. I have also listened to messages by other WOF ministers and have NEVER, NEVER heard them teach anything that JP or these “heresy hunters” say they do. They bare false witness and have nothing but straw man arguments. That doesn’t mean I agree with 100% of things taught by Kenneth Hagin or other WOF teachers but what JP and others are saying is ridiculous!
I also attended ORU and studied theology. For the better of almost 10 years I studied Reformed Theology as well. I didn’t listen to opposing views but listened and read from direct sources who taught it such as RC Sproul, John Piper, Steve Lawson, A.W. Pink, and the writings of the Puritans. Although, they have many truths that we can benefit from, it started to affect my faith in God. I also saw among many of Calvinism’s followers with a spiritual pride, arrogance, and lack of any love towards other people or views as seen in the comment thread for this video. The comments are repulsive. I think many of them see themselves as modern reformers. However, what Martin Luther did and others during the reformation was a move of the Spirit of God. This so-called modern reformation is a move of the flesh, carnality, and a spirit of pride.
My conclusion that the Reformed view of sovereignty is not the Bible’s view. God is sovereign and sovereignly chose man’s responsibility to be involved. Man still must live, walk, and please God by Faith. Even Charles Spurgeon understood this. These modern day heresy hunters who idolize Spurgeon would be shocked to really read what he said about Faith. The sovereignty of God and man’s faith are not opposed to each other.
Thanks again for the channel!
Tim
There were a lot of the old-line Baptist ministers who believed this. I remember as a teenager I read a book on the life of John R. Rice. Not to long after that I stumbled across a book by Kenneth E. Hagin. I was surprised how similarly they spoke about believing God and depending on Him. There was a story about God telling Rice to go minister somewhere that was many miles away. Most people still used horses in those days. He didn't have a horse. So, he told God 'ok, if you want me to do that then you'll provide the means.' Within about a week or so someone just happened to give Rice a horse. Sounds like every story Bro. Hagin ever told about his own ministry. Bro. Hagin was giving a tour of Rhema to a well-known visiting minister. The minister said 'Doesn't this keep you stressed out?' Bro. Hagin said 'No, i dont every worry about it.' the minister said 'Why?' Bro Hagin said 'It wasn't my idea to begin with. If Gods wants Rhema to succeed its al on Him. He'll provide the means as long as its what He wants.' Tons of stories from Rice's life like this.
Dear brother Timothy...
You are welcome at my fire anytime.
In the name of our Lord Jesus most holy and eternal, I offer you welcome.
I just discovered your channel and am so thrilled by the breath of fresh air your ministry provides. These so-called discernment teachers and critics are emitting a stench! They have long needed to be exposed for their error. Thank you for stepping up to do the job!
Given how thorough and accurate you are, maybe Justin will eventually find such clear, obvious reasoning to be the truth. But then, I always felt if someone heard the truth of the matter they would concede to it. However, as I’ve gotten older I’ve realized people like to hold onto their beliefs, no matter how false.
Justin gets corrected for saying stupid stuff and then doubles down in another video to defend himself and says even more stupid stuff. With him that's just par for the course.
But in his defense, he is too busy to do proper homework on these matters because he hes been traveling around to churches trying very hard to convince people that God doesn't do miracles anymore.
Discernment (so called) ministers are typically like that. It would be a great day when one of them truly repents of dishonesty an maligning other believers
Says the man who believes that the Word of Faith movement is heretical
When have you heard JP say God doesn't do miracles anymore? Can you bring any documentation that proves he's ever said that?
Sometimes I just feel sorry for JP. It seems that there's got to be some sort of bitterness in his life that causes him see things the way he does. In Acts chapter 8 Peter refers to Simon the Sorcerer. When he addresses his core issues he refers to bitterness and iniquity affecting the way he lives. It almost seems like there's some sort of stubborn unbelief. Something that is holding him in bondage.
At least with people like Melissa Dougherty, you can see where her new age background and limited experience limits her from being able to understand what spirit filled Word of Faith people are teaching. With John MacArthur, you can see the influence of a religious spirit affecting his judgment. But with JP there seems to be more than that because his judgment seems to be moving into genuine intellectual dishonesty. There's got to be some sort of bitterness there. I pray that the Lord would heal his disabilities and remove whatever is hindering him from seeing the truth
I kind of feel sorry for JP as well
Good observations
That’s because Benny can’t heal anyone. He’s a scam artist.
It was when he was 16. A faith healer with the last name Lamb came to his area. Of course he wasn't healed. He goes into more detail in his testimony I don't remember it all.
@Susan Throop I think he's referring to Nora Lam.
I went online and found a copy of Ken Copeland's book The power of the tongue. It reads the way you said it and not the way Justin Peter's said. Kenneth Copeland literally said "So before Jesus came to earth, God spoke his word, and he spoke his word ..." He also wrote "The Word, which existed before the foundation of the earth , lived for thirty-three years as a man. His name was Jesus. Anyone can google the book and read that for themselves in the chapter God's Word Sent Forth. Justin Peter's should have done that before quoting what he did, but he did not since it served Justin's purpose to discredit Ken Copeland and his word of faith teaching. His purpose was if he could invalidate Ken Copeland for teaching something that is so wrong, then his teaching on faith must be wrong as well. If I could google the book and find it in 30 seconds he could have done the same. The site I came to when I googled it allows you to preview part of the book The Power of the Tongue before you buy it, and fortunately this chapter was included in that preview.
What he did is called lying. Misrepresenting what someone said is wrong. Jesus isn't happy with people lying.
I’ve read Kenneth Copeland’s book The Power of the Tongue. It doesn’t say what Justin Peters says.
The passage from Copeland’s book is right there on the screen. What more proof do you want??
What’s on the screen isn’t in the book - I have the book
@@jennilopez1984 It isn't in the book. You can do a search online and find PDF's of the book and do a search for that quote. Its not there.
Copeland is a heretic and needs to get saved
I like the way you and Justin did this. I'm sure you both felt like you won the "argument". I wish you two guys could set up a forum where you could sit at a table and have doctrinal discussions. I would greatly enjoy hearing a discussion......not a debate, but a discussion.
It's not about 'winning the argument' it's about what is true. JP may see too much into statements at times. But JG should himself get how false teachers operate. They shift and slide the statements they make. They start from scripture and then slowly shift meanings into something else. This isn't limited to "charismatics", it exists in the 'Reformed' camp as well. Bonhoeffer and Barth are classical examples for this (not even talking about the apparent extreme examples that also exist). The key issue is that those are all products of the Flesh (which can have an appearance of truth, but it is small t truth at best)... The Truth is however only a Gift of God via the Holy Spirit.
@@metapolitikgedanken612 THE Truth is Jesus Christ.
JUSTINE IS TYPICAL OHF HERICTIC HUNTERS HIDE ON YOU TUBE WILL NEVER CONFRONT FACE TO FACE
A MAN WENT TO JOHN MAC A AND WAS THROWN OUT CURCH THERS WAS A VIDEO OF HIS BAPTIST CHURCH 250 COMPLAINED IS WAS DRY LEGALISM NO POWER NO LIFE YOU THAT WHAT THE SPIRIT OF RELIGION DOES WONT ALLOW YOU CONFRONT FACE TO FACE
Rod Saunders, THANK YOU for this video.
Very Well Done Bro. Saunders! Justin is deceived Himself; it's Extremely Sad, but If He Would Be Willing To Have His Mind Renewed to the Truth, He could be transformed! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!
I have been praying for and challenging Justin for ages.
I wonder if this hole he has dug for himself and the stupidity of it is God calling him to account.
Will keep praying.
I have a God who answers prayer
@@John-Christchurch-NZ Amen. I am praying for his healing and the baptism of the Spirit on Pastor MacArthur and his church. I am encouraged by your prayer, let us keep praying for them.
Jew and Greek, I am so glad I found you. I am a Baptist born, Baptist bred, and Baptist educated (BM, MA, ThM, ThD) Charismatic Apologist, and have been one for about 45 years. I thought I was almost alone in that adventure. My problem with WOF is not Christology, so much as a redefinition of pistis. Faith is essentially trust and is only as good as the object of that trust. It is not an independent force, but a dependent trust. It can be grown by exercise only because we learn to trust Him as we grow in Him.
Nice to meet you. I don't believe that faith is an independent force. To my knowledge Kenneth Hagin never taught it that way either. Some like Copeland have taught faith in a reckless and irresponsible manner IMO, but Kenneth Hagin was the leader of the movement, and he was much more responsible with his wording. But if you're using "force" as a metaphor as in "the power of prayer", I don't really object to referring to faith as a force. A. B. Simpson compared faith to the force of gravity. As long as you avoid the pseudoscience implications of the Law of Attraction metaphors should be taken for what they are.
@@JewandGreek Very well put.
This is a masterclass video !
Thank you for your videos; it seems that when I approach a conversation with fellow Christian’s, I feel as though I can’t express my faith without being attacked. They always bring up these “arguments”, such as JP brought up. So thank you for clarifying and making things easy to understand!
It do be like that in Christian Circles sometimes. Lol
As a former critic of word of Faith. Though I'm not 100% word of Faith. The best thing you can do more than a debate is remain in love that'll speak louder then anything else. And more then likely yes it's an an attack like you said. Not a genuine love of correction to pull you out at false doctrine.
@@albertlopez2237 These guys seem to be on a crusade so any tactic they employ is fair use. Thats the sense I get with these Heresy Hunter types. Its kind of a game to them.
@@thetruthchannel349 the more critical I became of WOF the more critical I became of people that were in it. I had no love though I would never admit to it. My goal was to make them feel how foolish they were and beat them down with the so called truth. So anyone feeling they don't feel adequate to debate; know this if debating was the way to win men's hearts then these Christan apologist who debate people of various religions they should be leading thousands of people to salvation they are not. Not saying no one gets saved they are just not leaps and bounds leading more people out of what ever mind set. Knowing what you believe and why is more for you to affirm your faith then anything else. Joush McDowell said it best in studying the evidence of Jesus life he said it was not the evidence that saved him it was the love of Jesus that saved him. Jesus was the best debater though he brought his opponents to silence they still hated him they still did not bow their knee. Men still have to make a choice when truth is presented to them.
@@albertlopez2237 *I understand what you mean. Ya, keeping our hearts is hard work. Ya know seems to me its the same thing you hear about 'relationships are hard work.' Its the same thing with us and our own hearts. That relationship is hard work. Its not easy.*
The dishonesty among so called discernment ministers is shocking. The real purpose of ministries such as this one (Jew and Greek) is to awaken people whose faith has been shaken by these guys and those who have been caused to mistrust their pastors. The importance of this cannot be overstated
I am becoming more and more convince that the dishonesty is deliberate. Its not just a difference in opinion but deliberate maligning of other believers
A 100% truth right there brother. Thank you!
@Eucharist Angel thank you for a very consistent opinion. If you don't agree with the dishonesty bit then it's understandable that you won't consider it shocking. The only bit to highlight is the fact that it will not be that dramatic if you at all see the dishonesty
Really? Do you actually believe the false teachings of the heretical Word of Faith teachers?
These wolves have done enormous damage to the church for decades and shipwrecked the Faith of many. New false teachers pop up overnight like cockroaches.
Poor Justin Peter's. What a shame.
If Perry Stone believes that Jesus is a created being, then I seriously doubt that the Church of God would let him keep his ministerial license.
So sad. Peter's deliberately taking Perry Stone's comment out of context.. so dishonest disingenuous and dividing..
Also you gotta read in John 17:5
“And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.”
The Son of God as part of the Trinity is eternal. Jesus Christ created in the flesh as the manifest Son of God is Bible. These are two different things.
I don't understand why this is so hard to understand...
I believe you are getting closer, we need a live debate with him. that is my challenge to you Rod, hope you will take it
I'm willing to debate Justin on "Is Word of Faith teaching heresy?" But I'm probably not going to push him on a debate, and from what I've read he's not interested in debating me. He prefers lobbing grenades from a safe distance. Strangely enough, according to Dr. Michael Brown, Justin offered to debate him on WoF, and Dr. Brown declined because he's not WoF. LOL Apparently the expert on WoF didn't realize that.
@@JewandGreek I'm going to write JP and challenge him on your willingness to debate him. Have you reached out to him an ask him if he'd be willing to sit down with you to have a open honest, mutually respectful conversation? Or a straight up debate? What have you read that leads you to say he's not interested in debating you?
@@TheDangerous123dan I would like to see a round table format. Maybe not a debate. It turns into a competition mindset as opposed to a 'Let us reason together' mindset. The goal should be to instruct, inform and grow people. Debates typically don't have that outcome.
@@thetruthchannel349 I agree. I also like the format you mentioned. Thanks 🙏🏽
@@TheDangerous123dan conversation would be my choice
Just found the PDF. This is everything I could find relating to the quote:
Once that covenant was established, God began to release His Word into the earth. He began to paint a picture of a Redeemer, a man who would be the manifestation of His Word in the earth. The only avenue God had to get His words into the earth was through men. As He would speak life- filled words in relation to His covenant with Abraham, His prophets would repeat those words in the earth. It was a very tedious and difficult process since the Old Testament prophets were not born-again men. Because they lived under the Abrahamic Covenant, they were able to receive
instruction from God and righteousness was imputed, or counted, unto them (Rom. 4:22).
So before Jesus came to the earth, God spoke His Word and then spoke His Word again.
How many times did He say the Messiah was coming? It was prophesied over hundreds, even thousands, of years. He kept saying, "He is coming. He is coming." The circumstances in the earth made it look as if there was no way He could accomplish it; but He just kept saying it. He would not be moved by what He saw. Once that Word was received into the earth by a man, it was here to stay. In Isaiah 55:11, God said, So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. God would not relent. Through the mouths of His prophets, He kept sending His Word and sending His Word.
Finally, the great moment came when that Word was brought forth in human form: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth (John 1:14). The Word, which existed before the
13
14
foundations of the earth, lived for 33 years as a man. His name was Jesus. He ministered for three years as a prophet under the Abrahamic Covenant; then He gave Himself to be the last sacrifice of the Old Covenant. He became the sacrificial lamb, offered upon the altar of the cross for one reason: to defeat Satan.
Jesus was the last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45), and He passed the test that the first Adam failed.
pg 12-14
Finally, Justin gets called out, on his twisted accusations.
Thank You Rod.
Was waiting for this :)
Amazing work thank you !!
Great Job!!!!!!!
Jesus himself even said to the Father "let me share the glory with you *before the world began*. in john 17:5
Ya John starting in around Chapter 13. There is so much there thats been looked over in favor of the 1 or 2 soundbites that Christian Bookstores and Hallmark Cards pulled out for Seasonal holidays.
Perry Stone obviously was referring to Jesus incarnation, as we are very familiar with his ministry - he is a solid biblical teacher.
Once again JPs accusations don’t hold water. He really needs to learn to do proper research and not assume negative conclusions - it makes him lose credibility as a reliable analyst.
I think to do the issue any justice, it is right to see Justin's video.
We can not ignore pure heresy in their teachings just because the church's statement of faith says otherwise.
Nor should you accuse somebody of heresy just because they make an ambiguous statement that could be interpreted (mostly by heretic hunters) as contradicting their statement of faith, especially when it's based on fabricated quotes or contradicts years of other content that they have created.
@@JewandGreek
What they actually teach versus what they put in their statement of faith is not the same. Unfortunately, WOF teachings are not what their statement of faith declares.
I attended a church based on their statement of faith. I really liked the people. However, teachings would be taught that would grieve my spirit and didn't line up with the scriptures. It was a mixture of truth and error. Eventually, I had to speak with the pastor and explain to him why I was leaving.
If JP is good in anything. He's a master of nit-picking. I haven't seen anybody else so professional in nitpicking like JP. Thank you Brother Rod
Marking the wolves. Try it sometime
JP seems to be so confident that he has proven his point but once again failed. . . . . next time he'd better do his research well or else quit trying to discredit the word of faith preachers
Another great video Rod!! Thanks for what you do
Hey man, I screenshot one of your comments and used it in a video I did to add another witness to the fact that 'quote' isn't in Copeland's Power of the Tongue Book.
@@thetruthchannel349 cool man! I’ll check it out..
How a Christian can defend the likes of Copeland and Hinn, I’ll never understand.
If a hypothetical choice was forced upon me between being a Charismatic or an atheist, I’m walking away entirely.
My challenge to Justin was to prove that WoF teachers teach Arianism, and he proceeded to provide a manufactured quote to support his bogus allegation against Copeland. That in no way is an across-the-board defense of everything Copeland says and does. I think most people are able to grasp that. And as for Benny Hinn, Justin claimed that he practices necromancy, and provided no evidence to support that claim. Regardless of your feelings about Benny Hinn, you as a Christian should be against lying. That's about as basic as you can get in Christianity - don't lie. Don't slander. Don't make up things to justify your condemnation of somebody you disagree with on secondary issues. Justin has a history of doing exactly that, and it's time he was held accountable for it.
"between being a Charismatic or an atheist" *Been thinking about this a lot recently. I can prove Biblically why holding to Calvinist/Cessationist views is far worse than either or both. The Apostles never had to face the false doctrine of Cessation but if you look at other things they taught and other things they viewed very strongly as being 'false teaching & heresy' then Cessation false somewhere between these two because it slanders both the Head of the Church and His Administrator - The Holy Spirit whom no word spoke against will be forgiven. The real dangers of Cessation are not being discussed. So, if I had a choice between belonging to ANY Group that didn't deny the demonstration of God's Power which in this context is the demonstration of the love of the Father I would pick any group that didn't deny the Spirit of God over either atheist or Cessationist. I dont think most people understand the dangers in doing this or its consequences in the Body of Christ. How can you function in the Body of Christ and deny the Spirit which animates it and gives it life? Look up every time the phrases 'through the Spirit' or 'by the Spirit' or 'with the Spirit' appears in connection with the Church. I dont think we can quantify the detrimental results of denying the FUNCTION of the Spirit. Its happening all across the Churches in North American and Europe. The last time this happened the Roman Catholic Church arose from the ashes of the churches that denied the Spirit. I'll tell you what it really comes down to. It comes down to OBEDIENCE. Denying the Spirit is a heart that is hardened through disobedience.*
Wonderfully said. As for waiting for hundreds, even thousands of years for the manifested promise from the Father...
I wait with fervent hope and faith, believing beyond earthly appearance of impossibility, for the day the world will recognize us by our love one for another. Albeit, I shudder to think of the level of persecution necessary to cause us to trust and love one another as one body, one bride, one church.
It have been a "fight" since the acts if God is still providing his Spirit like he did back then. He does.
You're right. I was just thinking about that 2 days ago. The ONE thing the principalities fear is the spirit-filled Church. Its the one thing the world fears as well.
Good job Rod!
I can see how JP gets to his conclusions but sadly he seems to miss the context and meaning of what is being said. Kinda like the proof texts of Calvinism. Blessings, Rod!
How dare you. It was determined before the foundation of the earth that before the decree was made, that some day JP would take these guys out of context.
🤣🤣
@@Telkor 🤣🤣🤣 🤜💥🤛
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom he have crucified, both Lord and Christ."(Acts2:36)
Hey, brother Rod. Love your Biblically sound and balanced approach to the issues you’ve been addressing so far. May the Almighty God reward you richly in Jesus’ name. I’d like to know when you’ll be given opportunity to address the Billy Graham controversy. It’s sad that many of our fellow Christian brothers and sisters still believe in those false accusations made against Billy Graham, from “he’s a Freemason” to “he said all religion leads to heaven in an interview.” If there’s a way to clear up those controversies, especially for the sake of the many whose lives have been greatly touched by Billy Graham’s evangelistic life and message, please do. I look forward to hearing your response.
God bless you, brother.
I'm planning a series of videos on certain men of God, so I might add Billy Graham into the mix. Be warned though, because I don't sugar coat things. There were things about him that would disappoint a lot of his supporters.
Keep that man honest, Rod! Justin doesn't seem to really look at any contrary evidence. He takes the smallest thing and makes a big deal out of it.
My prayer is that we will see some kind of integrity, some kind of acknowledging that he's taking his anti-charismatic fight too far!
Thanks for this Rod. Looking at that Kenneth Copeland quote in the context of this discussion, would you agree that the "pre-incarnate" Christ is the Word of God. After all, John 1 says that in the beginning was the word and that the "word became flesh and dwelt among us". This is my view on the matter. I think the pre-incarnate Christ is the Word of God. Before Jesus was born in the flesh, there was no "Jesus, the son of God". Would you agree?
Yes. Jesus (or Yeshua) was His earthly name, which is essentially the same name as Joshua. Messiah, (or Christ - "anointed one") was His earthly title. In the OT He's known as The Lord or The Messenger of The Lord. In John He's "The Word" and 1 John He's "The Word of Life" or "The Life". In Revelation He's "The Ancient of Days". Justin is just following the MO of most discernment hacks, assigning the worst conceivable interpretation to a statement in order to justify condemning people he disagrees with.
8:01 my thoughts exactly! Good video Rod
THE LORD BECAME WORD BECAME FLESH
Hey Tod I have a question for you. Why do you think a lot of these Christian UA-camrs are Calvinist heretic head hunters? It’s like the Christian UA-camr heretic hunter starter kit is:
1. Make videos answering questions like “Should Christian’s do fill in the blank”
2. Make videos warning the flock of “false” teachers. Like - Joel Osteen, TD Jakes, Joyce Myers, Etc.
3. Use old outdated videos about false teachers.
4. Edit and post sermons of famous reformed preachers.
I see this pattern over and over again. Why do you think this is?
because everyone you just mentioned is a false teacher and the fact another human has to point that out is scary to say the least...this isn't a denomination thing these people are absolutely false listen to any of them regarding and biblical doctrine...
It's a business model that works. As long as it works, why shouldn't they do it? Unless they're troubled by a bad case of ethics.
@shake - well said. Speaking the truth.
Ya know I was just thinking about that after waking up from a short nap. When I see a pattern I infer a Conspiracy of some kind. I know a lot of people hear the word 'Conspiracy' and they go cloak and dagger and tin-foil hat and want nothing to do with that conversation and that's fine. One thing people seem to forget. If you removed ALL Conspiracies from 8,000 years of recorded human history all you'd have left is Birth Dates and Deceased Records and nothing else. History itself is one long procession of Conspiracy Failures and Conspiracy Successes. The only question for me is "Is the Organization Loose or Strong?" They usually begin Loosely with people of common interests and motive. As they progress they become stronger and more connected until you have a culture of Conspiracy where you have similar targets, language, creedo, etc. Eschatology itself is a Conspiracy. I agree with Rod that the way people are encouraged in the current age of ME-MEDIA to participate is attention, 'fame' and revenue. But I think theres obviously a spiritual Conspiracy giving way to an Emotional Conspiracy which leads people to act in concert towards an outcome. I also think the reason voices like Peters and those like his is elevated and amplified on UA-cam while say Rod's is attenuated is obvious. Peters is more useful to the atheist element that controls social media. He is anti-Faith. Well? So, are they. So, he becomes a weapon in THEIR hands. Thats why we need to ask God for wisdom. I find myself believing God for more wisdom because with more wisdom comes the realization that Im a bigger fool than I had originally thought. And that is utterly heart breaking.
Thank You so much brother, Rod, I'm glad that Brother Justin Peters is starting to address you directly. Now, maybe I'm being too naive but I'm praying that Brother Justin may be healed in the hope that it will bring unity to the body of Christ. I do admit that error does exist but the way it is being addressed by the discernment world brings division. God is still moving and if He moves in Brother Justin's life maybe that can open room for all of us to build one another in our most holy faith. There is One Body of Christ and One Spirit. If I'm being naive help me, brother Rod, I'd appreciate your input.
We would all love to see Justin receive his healing, but it's not likely without a spiritual breakthrough first. As long as he opposes what the Word says about faith and healing and clings to his view on God's sovereignty he'll likely remain as he is.
@@JewandGreek Thank you, Brother Rod, then we pray for a spiritual breakthrough and that the deception falls in Jesus' Name. This is our struggle. 2 Corinthians 10:5. Keep up the Good Work Brother🙏
@Eucharist Angel thank you for what you said. How in the world can someone say “clings to the view of God’s sovereignty“?? If God isn’t sovereign the entire foundation of Christianity is shattered. How can these people say that God is not sovereign?
@@JewandGreek What?? “Clings to the view of God’s sovereignty”? If God is NOT sovereign then we have absolutely NO foundation as believers… and then what is the point??
@Eucharist Angel Even R. C. Sproul acknowledged that all Christians affirm the sovereignty of God. We just disagree on the implications of God's sovereignty. Reformed people believe that God's sovereignty determines who gets saved and who doesn't. I'm not Reformed/ Calvinist. I believe that God desires for all to be saved, and I also believe that it's God's will for us to live in health, which is why He provided physical healing in the atonement in Isaiah 53:4,5. You can believe in the sovereignty of God and still believe in man's responsibility to exercise faith to appropriate what God has provided. They're not mutually exclusive concepts.
Justin seems intent on digging himself into a hole.
He did himself no favours adding his opinion to what Copeland and others actually said.
In this video he continually added to what people were actually saying.
Kenneth Copelands opinion according to Justin Peters, not Kenneth Copelands opinion according Kenneth Copeland.
Sadly Justin's hatred for WOF seems to have blinded him to what they are talking about.
But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going,
because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:11
Sad to say that these JP camp doesn't consider WOF or Charismatics brothers, they consider them as blinded and deceived people on their way to hell
@@bahrtnph1971 Something I wrote and have posted before sums it up:
You silly people.
Do you really believe people who
Love Jesus,
Pray to Him,
Trust Him,
Worship Him
Love the Word of God,
have committed their lives to Him,
know that He died for their sins,
believe that He has saved them,
just because they sing some songs that have some silly lyrics,
have some preachers that don't behave according to your expectations
who don't display your required level of Holiness and correctness.
are going to Hell because they don't believe your doctrine?
Get a Life.
@@bahrtnph1971 *I hope JP is a 'brother.' In every kingdom there are vessels to honor and dishonor.*
I don't know any Word of Faith people that believes in modalism or that Jesus is a created being. I have heard the direct opposite from all of them. Certain Pentecostal circles believe in modalism but that is it. Heretic hunters like to take the various groups of charismatic denominations and lump them all together as Word of Faith teaching when that is far from the case. Furthermore, many of these heretic hunters will find some fringe teaching by someone and make the false claim that everyone in the Word of Faith believes this. This is not even remotely true. There are a few things that Kenneth Copeland said that I strongly disagree with. These heretic hunters need to look at the core doctrines of what everyone believes and make their so-called discernment from there.
I agree.
I'd go one step further and ask these heretic hunters to be more careful calling people "False Teachers" or heretics. As you said, I also find some of the things Kenneth Copeland has said to be troubling, but do I believe he is deliberately trying to mislead people away from Jesus? Uh, that's a no for me. It's a bridge too far for me to say that these guys are deliberately and maliciously trying to keep people from knowing Jesus Christ and him crucified. Which is really the yardstick we should use to judge these teachers.
Can we disagree with them on doctrine? I think so. But the way the early church and the apostles saw false teaching and heretics is vastly different than the cavalier way in which modern day Christians understand that term.
Guy I want to inform you of who you're defending. You're not defending Jesus Christ you're not defending Martin Luther King you're not defending Fred Rogers you're defending Kenneth Copeland let that sink in...
What I'm defending is the truth. If you don't care about the truth then maybe you should let that sink in.
Well done Rod.
Clearly Justin Peters needs to repent and make amends for violating the 9th commandment. He needs to quit teaching people to rebel against God by teaching people not to desire spiritual gifts and especially the gift of prophecy!
Justin is repeating misquoted opinions. Lol. Justin is no scholar.
Ya, I was originally very angry after watching JP's video last evening but after going through the comments and viewing the level of ignorance and contempt present in those who frequent his channel its more important that I make up my mind that I'm not going to be like them. Theres a trap there. We have to step over it or go around it. Can do neither if we can't recognize it.
6:43 I believe I've seen that statement of faith on five other church websites...
Justin Peters looks for quotes that SOUND LIKE what he is looking for. He misinterprets what others say. It seems like he doesn't read what he is critiquing. I hope he is just a sloppy heresy hunter and that he's not deliberately lying to those that listen to him.
It's sad. Justin Peter's seems to take the worst possible interpretation of what someone says without looking at the context. Clearly Perry was talking about Jesus coming to earth as a man. He wasn't saying before then He never existed. Perry Stone and these others he cited clearly believe in the Eternal Jesus. It's so dishonest of him to take a supposed quote by Copeland without going to the actual source
Discernment ministries misrepresented someone? Color me shocked! In my opinion,
On another note, Justin Peters is out of his depth when he discusses theology. He is apparently too lazy to make sure his criticisms are accurate.
P.S. Technically, the early Church taught that Jesus has always been incarnate. There was never a time when he was not (read St. Athanasius of Alexandria's work on the incarnation--it was written in response to arian theology). Of course, I recognize this is a Protestant channel, but I wanted to throw that out there.
Justin Peters routinely twists stuff to get what he wants out of it and I suspect he is not self aware enough to realize it. Just look at his own doctrinal statement on his website. He uses 1 Tim 5:23 ESV: "Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses." and Gal 4:13 ESV: As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you,".....as proof texts for cessationism.
You think he is not self aware? Most of it seems deliberate in my opinion
@@wenhari06 You could be right on that.
TBF, proof texts for cessationism are really, really hard to find. Lol.
@@Telkor That is because they do not exist.
@@Telkor *Cessationism exists in the modern church world because of a battle of pre-eminence that emerged between the Catholic Church and the Reformers. I have a short video on that on my channel. It was just a political ploy used to answer a claim made by the Church about the Reformers. A chess blocking move turned into a doctrine. It never had anything to do with the Bible really. It was just a battle for the minds of The People of that time.*
Thank you brother from Italy. Justin, boo.
Jesus appeared to Abram as Almighty God in Gen 17.
Jesus appeared to Moses as Jehovah, whereas before he was not known by that name Ex 6:3.
Jesus is God, Jesus is Jehovah!
In John ch. 8, Jesus told the Jews, Abraham rejoiced to see my day, appearing to him on more than one occasion.
Everybody ought to know who Jesus is, he is Lord, and he is God, he is creator of all things, Savior of the world.
I grew up in a family that started their Christian journey by watching many WOF preachers on TV. I have never heard any of them teach Jesus was a created being or was ever taught that by my parents who watched them at the time. My parents went on to become more aligned with reformed theology, however none of their current disagreements with WOF doctrine ever surrounded Jesus not being God, or being created. That is a first for me.
You're correct. While my disagreement with Kenneth Copeland stems from his wealth and health gospel that has no basis in reality for many people on the ground, it would be dishonest to suggest that he teaches Arianism. I think Peters is being dishonest
@@kevinevans8892
Copeland teaches all kinds of false doctrines along with many of them. Also, the lies and claiming they went to heaven or hell are ridiculous by the likes of Katt Kerr, Jessie Duplants, Copeland and so many others. The entire movement is not sound in bible doctrine.
The Trinity has no beginning and no end. It's eternal. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit have always 'been'. I couldn't really follow this video because it jumped around a lot from JP to this guy. Anyway, Jesus was most definitely not created. He always 'was'
*Where did Jesus get the body he walked around in his 33 years on earth?*
At the risk of splitting theological hairs, let's just say that Jesus or Christ the man was created in the sense that all men are created, but the second member of the godhead or the Word (logos GR) is eternal. The unique thing about Jesus is He has a dual nature. This is known as the hypostatic union - fully God and fully man. When Copeland, Perry, and Duplantis said He wasn't there, or didn't exist, or was created, they're referring to the incarnation. They're not denying his eternal nature as the second member of the godhead. I think the only people who would draw that conclusion are people who are predisposed to by virtue of their theological bigotry.
"This is known as the hypostatic union - fully God and fully man" *yes*
I had not heard standard operating for heretic hunters before but it is true. I perceive that deep down they really want to discredit those who believe in the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and those who believe in speaking in unknown tongues, and those who believe God still does healing miracles, and those believe in deliverance from evil spirits. and those who believe in being blessed by God for giving tithes and offerings. Since many word of faith believers believe in the above mentioned things deep down they know if they can discredit word of faith in a major doctrine that most people would know is wrong, they automatically can get people to assume that these other things the word of faith believe are also wrong. Once they can do that they then have more opportunity to teach Calvinism which is what they believe. It is evidently very easy for them to push untruths about other ministries considering they have been so easily and fully deceived to believe that what Calvin taught is true.
The Father is eternal but not begotten Jesus is eternal but begotten The Holy Spirit is eternal but proceeds -St. John Damascus
You seem like a good man defending the wrong group of people.
What I'm defending is the truth. Whether these guys are good or bad, you have no right to manufacture quotes and misrepresent their teaching as Justin Peters does.
@Jew and Greek you're right. This is the first time I've ever heard of this Arianism allegation regarding Copeland. If Peters is telling the truth, which I most certainly don't believe he is, the Bible Answer Man would've documented this years ago.
Justin Peters is a humble man full of integrity. You need to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith. Are you seriously defending Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn?
Justin Peters is either an incompetent researcher or a pathological liar. I have lots of issues with Kenneth Copeland and Benny hinn, but they don't go around lying about what their theological opponents believe and teach. I've done dozens of videos showing that that's exactly what Justin Peters does.
Why is everyone making this about defending Copeland? Ya know Rod here? Me and a close friend all come from Rhema. We all came from Kenneth E. Hagin's ministry. Do you know why we don't think in terms of 'defending Copeland? Because Bro. Hagin instilled in us an HONOR for The Word of God and that comes before MEN, it comes before ANGELS, it comes before every CREATED thing and every created being. I don't see that among those who seem to follow Justin Peters. Its like I told someone on his channel earlier. You accept everything Peters despite SOME things being wrong and that prevents you from being open and clear-minded with OTHER things. The motive here is fear not faith and that is precisely what you'd expect to find among people who abandoned the doctrines of FAITH to cling to lesser things. Thats what Peters did and you're all following him down a path of shadows. The Word of God is a LAMP. The Word of God is the candle of the Lord. We examine OURSELVES in the light of HIS Word.
"Karen Weiss
7 hours ago
Justin Peters is a humble man full of integrity." *This bothers me. Are you married to him?*
*Im not a man full of integrity. I probably have more integrity than most but by my standards Im sorely lacking in certain areas that probably wouldnt be important to others but are important to me. I wouldn't say this about myself & I wouldn't say it about someone I hadn't closely worked alongside, eaten alongside, lived alongside and observed in everyday life.*
@@thetruthchannel349 do I have to be married to a man to see his humility and integrity?
BTW, I’m a happily married woman to my husband for 38 years now. You have a nasty mind. “The Truth Channel” 😂😂😂
Rod,
Do you believe that Kenneth, Perry, and Jesse are truly preaching God's word and are prophetically sound? Or do you see them as false teachers and false prophets? I am truly asking for a honest answer here sir.
I would consider that a false choice. False teachers and prophets as I understand the terms lead people away from the faith. I consider them flawed teachers, and I wouldn't recognize any of them as prophets. Frankly I wouldn't walk across the street to listen to any of them, but they aren't leading people away from the faith. They're just not bringing them to maturity in the faith. But the issue here isn't the quality of their ministries. The issue is Justin Peters' credibility. Anybody who uses a fabricated quote, allegedly from a book that actually teaches the opposite of what the quote implies, is not credible. Anybody who takes quotes that are accurate but ambiguous, and assigns the worst possible interpretation to those quotes, while ignoring the statements of faith and the decades of doctrinal history of the ministers in question, isn't credible. Justin has been getting away with this shtick for years, and it's time people are made aware of what he's doing.
Kenneth Copeland claims to be a prophet. He is a proven liar and false prophet. He is not a Christian. He is a wolf.
@@JewandGreek
I would consider them false teachers and deceivers. Especially the ones at the top. Others get in and are not mature and eventually are drawn out. I was in it for a few years back in the day of Hagin, Capps, Seville, Tilton, Roberts and others. Prior, while in the military I was in a solid AOG church. Many AOG churches are not what they used to be either. It has taken me awhile to find a solid community church that teaches very sound doctrine. The main thing is to test everything by the word of God as the Bereans. If the teachings don't reconcile with the scriptures, then find a church that teaches the truth without the errors.
I'm a little confused. 😕 Is this a parody or are you and JP actually debating in real time? 🤔
This is probably the closest you'll ever get to seeing Justin debate me.
😂 I also got the surprise of a life time. For me this is progress and an answer to my prayers.
Great picture of that con artist Copeland ! It's exactly as I picture him !
👏👏 Whether intentional or not, JP is so incredibly dishonest. Thank you for sharing! 👏👏
Dishonest how? Everything he teaches is straight from the Bible. Provide an example of his dishonesty
Yes, how? If you’re going to discredit people then give evidence.
@@ShepherdMinistry I've done dozens of videos showing that he's either an incompetent researcher or a liar. Check out the playlist on Justin Peters.
But Copeland, Jessie, Creflo, and to many others to name are all honest?
They have been spewing doctrines of demons for decades.
Yes I have seen this with these type of things, the critics that is, if you going to stand for the truth and expose false teachings, well good, but then you need actually present the truth and check your facts. Many of these critics also twist things to fit their views, that is not truth. I have written to some of them, that they are doing the very thing they accuse others of, did not have a pleasant response. These critics seems as if they write people off.
"Many of these critics also twist things to fit their views, that is not truth. I have written to some of them, that they are doing the very thing they accuse others of, did not have a pleasant response. These critics seems as if they write people off." *Thats what I encountered with the Flat Earth perps a few years ago. I tried to be reasonable and I tried to get conversations started. They became immediately unhinged and refused to communicate. So, I wrote them off and went about it another way which caused them a lot more grief than if they had just sat down and had the conversation. Its the same thing we see on the left. In fact, the term 'woke' began in the Flat Earth 'movement.' Its also very odd that right after the FE fiasco had started petering out suddenly the Left started redefining what everything means and the word used to describe it became 'woke.' It was everything we saw in Flat Earth. Everything. I could go into detail as to why that is but I wont bore with details. When people only want to EXPOSE but they don't want to DEBATE theres something else happening. Thats a militant stance. Again, thats the same thing we see happening on the Marxist Left. Its my contention its the same spirit behind each of these cults and of course, they have to use men to express their plans and purposes just like God does.*
Good work Rod!! When word of faith teachers never confront heretic hunters like Justin Peters, they lead many into the same cessationist ditch they are stuck in (refusing to "teach them to do all that I commanded you" which includes cast out demons, heal the sick, or speak in tongues which their beloved KJV bible declares are supernatural signs that will follow Christ's disciples -- and sadly NEVER follow John Calvin's disciples).
I’d listen/subscribe more, but the commercials are distracting.
JP does a great job at picking apart others, maybe he should turn the mirror to himself. Most people that hear that nonsense JP says and doesn't study out the truth, that in itself helps keep hus twisted logic alive. But thank you Rod for your studies.
Good research. I think you ll find that Perry Stone is halfway towards Modalism and that's why he'd say Jesus didn't exist, because that's essentially how Modalism plays out in denying the preexistence of Jesus. He used the terminology of Trinity but it's not the historical idea he explains but more a hybrid version, he's not word of faith anyway so JPs critique is irrelevant. The source is a video sermon where he explains the his version of "Trinity" to answer Islamic objections and mentions UPC people there.. I searched and it's no longer on UA-cam.. you might be able to uncover it
Thanks, Paul. I'm no expert on PS, so you could be right. But the CoG Cleveland is mainstream on the Trinity.
Finally! Justin is one of the most damaging teachers in the Faith. He destroys you pursuing intimacy and communing with the Father, in Jesus Christ, through the Person of Holy Spirit.
"Finally! Justin is one of the most damaging teachers in the Faith" *Yes. The target does appear to be the FAITH of believers.*
Wondering if he is a cessationist?
Yes, he's a rabid cessationist.
I appreciate everything you do and I love your videos! The only thing I can’t understand is how you can defend a money hungry preacher such as Copeland. He obviously serves mammon
I don't know Copeland's heart so I can't pass judgment on him when it comes to money. That's between him and God. What I can judge is doctrine. I disagree with Copeland on a number of things from a doctrinal standpoint, and I have discussed that in the past. At the same time there are those who say things about Copeland that I think are not fair. Justin's claim in this video is a good example. The fact that you disagree with someone's theology doesn't give you the right to manufacture evidence to justify condemning them. You're entitled to your own opinions but you're not entitled to your own facts.
@@JewandGreek I mean this is the guy that says “ money cometh to me now! There’s more and it’s not like you have to really go looking for it, it’s pretty obvious. I really respect you , and have been watching your videos for a long time. I’m just not sure how you can justify anything he does , and cannot discern him. God bless 🙏🏼
@@SetTheCaptivesFree4797 I don't defend Copeland when he says and does things like that. But I will defend him when somebody like Justin Peters says that he teaches something that he doesn't teach. I don't understand why that's an issue. Do you believe that it's okay to lie about somebody because you disapprove of some things that they've said?
I wish he would just agree to sit down and talk with you. The unwillingness to do so is an indictment of character.
Some people do not do well at all in a public debate type setting.
Of course I say that and then immediately think of the videos JP has put out going to Charis and attempting to call out teachers and students there. I'm not sure if he just feels he can outclass bible students or what. But when JP is challenged properly with someone who knows the Bible as well as he does then he comes up short.
@Susan Throop Ya, theres a lot of passive aggression there. I even see it with some on his channel. Its odd.
@Susan Throop I've never heard JP say he won't debate anyone, including this guy. If you've heard him refuse to sit down and have a conversation, can you post that source? Thanks
If any charismatic said they believed in baby baptism. Peter's,, Mcky, and the gang would be crying out heresy all over the place
I have been around some Calvinist and multiple Reformed theology guys and the majority of those guys purposely find things to misunderstand about anything you say. (I was one of those kinds of people who found fault before God disciplined me and I repented.). It's kind of like childish tattle tailing to make one look good. It's also just like the movie Pollyanna where she says if you look for the bad in people you shall surely find it. I have since learned that the true motive is to put anyone in the body of Christ down that they might exalt themselves over them. It is so they can prove themselves right in some way in order to show off their knowledge or virtue signal how much better they are than you or how much they either defend or live God more than you. They will even tell you what you meant when you said something rather than ask you to explain. Justin is out to be admired and make himself look good, even at the expense of God's kingdom.
Mark 12:13. And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.
Once again thank you for your careful examination of Justin.
JP's approach to these things is really absurd. It's like professing to be wise, and yet becoming like a fool.
I have this compassion for Justin Peters. Instead of always trying to prove other people in the Word of faith wrong, he should just tell God, "Father, I am tired of trying to prove other people, especially your sons, wrong. Let me take an infinite break from slandering, accusing them because that is the devil's work and nature. Even if they are wrong, proving people wrong needs a lot more research which I cannot do because I have no time. So, if I am not able to, best let You defend Yourself. Afterall, you are the only righteous Judge and Jesus is the best defense lawyer.
I admit I don't have what it takes to get my facts accurately right. Thank You."
🤣🤣😂
Using the Lord's name in vain is what most of these men are guilty of. People think that saying a phrase like Gosh darn is what this commandment is about. Using the Lord's name in vain is about using God for selfish desire. The word of faith movement is just the most obvious. Nonbelievers can easily see this is a money grab. These men make themselves and their organization out to be the financial advisors of God's kingdom. They tell people if they give money to God he will return the money with massive gains. This should be illegal to say. All while they use the money for lavish lifestyles. The idea that God wants us to be wealthy came around the time of Napoleon Hills' book "think and grow rich" and it infiltrated the church slowly but surely. This is the opposite of the message of Jesus. There is not one Bible story where a man tells God what his selfish desires are and God grants them. God directs the men who submit their wills to him not the other way around. This is the problem with word of faith. It turns the Gospel upside down, and pastors become motivational speakers.
That's a nice diversion attempt, but the topic is Arianism. Justin claimed that word of faith teachers teach that Jesus is a created being, and he did not provide evidence to support that claim.
@@JewandGreekJustin doesn't believe the Holy Spirit is needed anymore because the Bible is the perfect fullness. He is scared of anything that is non cessation. He likes to point the finger a whole lot. "Discernment" people are typically focused on what everyone else is doing wrong and do not have time to grow fruit. I'm sorry if I changed the subject, I just think that the prosperity gospel is mixed up. But I have not found a church that doesn't have a man made doctrine.
@@jamisonniezurawski7092 "Jamison Niezurawski
6 hours ago
@Jew and Greek Justin doesn't believe the Holy Spirit is needed anymore" *And nothing could be more obvious by observing him.*
Almost stopped having faith to heal the sick, prophesy because of Justin Peters. He would create all kinds of wrong citations and outside context stuff to discredit people's
Me also..I grew up in the apostolic faith mission church in SA..and I must confess..I nearly lost my faith because of Justin Peters..i
Your testimony is the reason why I started commenting and responding to these guys
That's why we should rely on what the bible says, not on these man made theology such as cessationism, calvinism, etc. These theologies don't even exist in the bible.
@@wenhari06 I saw your comments on that video comment section. Very good words.
ME too 😆.. @Lizette Massmann I'm also in AFM SA. God Bless You, and be relentless!
Ok, "Jesus wasnt even there" God the Father, God the son, and God the son, is the Trinity.
Jesus was a man, and at the time he's referring to He wasn't a man yet. He was the Son, or the Word (GR logos) but not Jesus or Christ. As I said, Copeland was referring to the incarnation which had not yet occurred.
You can tell clearly it's a lie It almost looks like a parody with Copeland's face Being in A ambiguous Lock Almost like a parody In my opinion this is very dishonest If you truly want to show discernment towards someone else then you do not need props and you do not Copy other documentsFrom someone else's page. This is juvenile.
It's not what you would expect from a mature minister, and is a pathetic way to show the Goodness of God.
Jesus didn't start to exist until he was conceived I'm Mary by The Holy Spirit.
But Jesus is only the incarnated Son, the Son himself, preincarnate, is uncreated.
What started to exist isn't The Son, it's the human personae of Jesus.
And yes, God created Christ... Christ is a title, its "the anointed one", it's contextually bound and not a timeless divine attribute, like love or mind or justice. It only exists in the created relational/covenantal context.
Thus God created the concept of the title: Christ.
Creating Christ can only be taken as a reference to the incarnation if you're trying to make it fit for the sake of defending the heretic who taught it.
*John even said the Word 'BECAME' flesh. That means that a Pre-Existent State gave way to a NEW EXISTENT state not that it had never EXISTED before but that it had never EXISTED in that STATE. The same happened when Christ was Resurrected. Theres so much in that progression to be examined as it speaks to the Nature of the Universe itself, the State of Mankind, etc. Jesus dove into the ocean of fallen humanity for the pearl of price that IS humanity. To Rescue US, Himself becoming the firstfruits of a NEW CREATION, a NEW KIND of being that had previously NEVER existed - God inhabiting MEN. These are the things we should be discussing. 2,000 years later and we are still children playing in a playpen. Jesus establishing Himself as the FINISHER of our FAITH... Smart idea. We'd never make it if He hadnt.*
@@thetruthchannel349 none of that accounts for statements like "God created Christ", "Jesus didn't exist yet" etc
@@TheDrumDuke *When you are determined NOT to understand one thing is determinate - You won't - ON PURPOSE.*
@@TheDrumDuke John didn't say "Jesus became human". He said the Word BECAME flesh. He changed forms. The Word always existed but Jesus was created just as Adam was created. He was the last Adam. The word "Christ" is never used in reference to the pre-incarnate state of the second member of the godhead. This is heretic hunting doubletalk.
@@JewandGreek you just said the thing you challenged JP to give examples of! The double speak is coming from you in defence of manifestly obvious false teachers.
Discernment ministers a sad copy of William Branham . My question is why God has not sent to earth another man like William Branham that raised people from the dead , miracles , signs and wonders ? Never we have seen a ministry like his again. I am from México . We have seen all kinds of quacks but never someone like William Branham . Why???
Branham is dead. Jesus is alive. I suggest that you forget about Branham and follow Jesus.
@@JewandGreek And that's IT.
God bless you brother. I seen what you had said. I stand with William Branham 100% we know he was Malachi 4:5-6 the spirit of Elijah, the seventh Church age messenger and revelation 10 7 this has been fulfilled. Whether the world believes it or not. It's true. May God bless you, shalom
@@JewandGreek how you know if Jesus is dead you wasn't back there when he came to Earth. I didn't meet William Branham. And I met a lot of them that stood with him. And I've heard enough tapes. To believe that he was right. He stayed right with the Bible. So I'm asking you have you been baptized in the name of Lord Jesus Christ? Acts 2:38 and if you haven't you need to read Mark 16:16 that will tell you where you're going. So I hope you've been baptized correctly. I'll be waiting on your answer.
@@revc5852 I didn't say that Jesus is dead. I said Branham is dead and Jesus is alive. Maybe you should read my comment over. Yes I've been baptized according to the Bible. And no, Branham didn't teach the Bible accurately. He taught serpent seed nonsense and he said the Trinity is a doctrine of devil's. He also taught a lot of legalism. The man wasn't called to teach. He was called to preach the gospel and minister to the sick. When he got away from his calling God took him off the scene because too many people were being misled and hurt.
As the old saying goes, when you live in a glass house....
don't throw stones.
I do wonder how many accusations Peters has thrown out there, hoping some would stick?
I believe He is being shown that he is accountable for his statements.
Wait are you defending the teachings of Copeland??
He isn't. He's defending the integrity of Apologetics. Once you've 'attacked' a man for what he DID NOT say you no longer have right to ever 'attack' him over ANYTHING he ACTUALLY DID say. That's why being ACCURATE is important. This has nothing to do with Copeland. It has to do with Integrity.
There are legitimate criticisms for Kenneth Copeland concerning stuff he has said over the years. Arianism is not one of those things.
JP spends a fair amount of his time trying to debunk the existence of Jesus as the eternal God. Boy, is he going to be in for a surprise when he sees Jesus at the judgement seat!
Nice
Listen, the reformed need a literal decree to get a drink of water. For them God cannot be sovereign over evil unless evil comes from him as first source. IE God must decree every evil doctrine, not only that, but the Holy Spirit must bring those evil doctrine into existence.
*They are a hop and a skip away from atheism.*
@@thetruthchannel349 Yup, and determinism makes Atheism God's decree. All be it his secret or occult decree. The power behind atheism or the evil spirit that promotes it to man, must be ""energized" by the Holy Spirit. Why are they bemoaning Gods will. It is a very remarkanly strange doctrine. And is is amazing that the heretic hunters seem to come from this camp.
@@granthollandvideos *Ya. In other words, its intellectual chaos. That always happens when you subscribe to an idea you don't really understand yourself. Stevie Wonder 'When you believe in things you dont understand..."*
@@thetruthchannel349 I think this point you bring up is just so important. I wish the Lord would give me more insight. Yes there is mystery and things we can't explain, but that can't mean the simplest moral truth that evil cannot come from a secret will of God.. How it is people come to believe this is amazing. And then act so intelligent.
@@granthollandvideos *They look at God as being 2 dimensional. Its Either/Or. its A/B. I think its so incredibly complex that its beyond our ability to understand in our current state. We are operating in such a narrow bandwidth of time, space and Creation. I think thats why God limits information in this area. Its too much for us to grasp. Its a mercy.*
I just had to comment again. Peters almost denies the incarnation. The incarnation is an actual place in our time. Jesus is not eternally incarnate and not changing his nature. He does change and become incarnate.
you think Peters has an Ice maker? Maybe he calls it a Water Maker instead to maintain congruency.
These Calvinist/Fundamentalist are so certain of their cessationist theology. If they were more humble in their presentation they would be much more persuasive.
Please Justin. It's hard to listen to him at times. He's creepy.
A friend of mine said that to me today as well. Same thing.
Christ was not created, He Is. Jesus Christ, was made, so, in Spirit, He Is God, but in the flesh, He is Jesus. And Jesus was made of the seed of David. And if we really want to go down to the root, made and created are different. Created, is from nothing, but made is using something that already exists. For example, Jesus Christ was made of the seed of David. Jesus was born but Christ was not born. Jesus was the genetic material that Christ used to dwell in.
Justin Peters may not understand the preciseness of language that must be used when discussing or teaching theology. Technically, the eternal pre-incarmate Son of God took on humanity at the moment of conception in Miriam's/Mary's womb ... and took the name "Jesus" eight days after she gave birth to Him.
From the human perspective, there is a precise chronology of temporal events that unfold in time -- and Perry Stone was not necessarily incorrect.
If JP speaks at a place close to you hope you can sit on the front row where he can see ya. Just wondering if he would try to get you removed. As he likes to sneak in to WoF meetings