Amen! Jesus I’m crying out to you. Please hear my cries. I’m struggling with my faith. I knew when I found Jesus my life wouldn’t be easy because I would have to give up on my sinful life style and follow him. I’m a single mother struggling to make ends meet. Since covid I have been struggling to get back on my feet. I lost my job for declining the vaccine. I declined due to my pre existing health conditions, lupus and heart disease so now I’m having a hard time providing for my children. Both of my sons are special needs. I’m overwhelmed I started homeschooling them due to bullying. I’m waitressing and I’m happy to be back working but I’m not making nearly enough to get by. I have nowhere to turn no family nor friends. No hope. I have been put down and mocked, over my situation. Prayers are all I want. I’m so ashamed and so embarrassed so please be kind. Every month I struggle with my children I’m barely making it. But I still keep faith. Praise Jesus. Please hear my prayers. I have faith God will continue to provide.
Both those preexisting conditions put you at much greater risk for COVID complications. I’m not a Dr., but I’d be extremely surprised if your Dr. Didn’t highly recommend you get the shot. I’m sorry for your situation. I hope things turn around
Child of God, keep loving Jesus. Darkness to light is His business. Stand in his kingdom righteousness, and you will be provided with what you need. Keep on asking. Persistence. Patience in your tears. God loves the diligent mother. Don't give up.
Jesus doesn't keep us from the furnace or the lion's den, we have to walk in with boldness and he will be by our side. God could have arranged the circumstances to avoid the furnace and the den, but how much more glorious that the fire didn't burn them and the starving lions sat there chill? I'm sure that was scary, but always keep your eyes on Christ and not the storm. A crazy storm is brewing, but fear not!
The Trinity had never been a problem for me since I did physics at school. There are plenty of weird things that scientists accept as true that don’t seem to make much sense at first. Quantum mechanics and wave-particle duality come to mind. If they can accept those things that are difficult to explain, then I can accept the Trinity. Why should I, a finite mortal, be able to easily understand the nature of the infinite immortal?
Terrible point and question! Scientists accept odd seeming results when they are testable and repeatable DESPITE our preconceptions. You are preconceiving a result DESPITE no evidence to back your claims. Sad
“My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the lord. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts. “The rain and snow come down from the heavens and stay on the ground to water the earth. They cause the grain to grow, producing seed for the farmer and bread for the hungry. It is the same with my word. I send it out, and it always produces fruit. It will accomplish all I want it to, and it will prosper everywhere I send it. Isaiah 55:8-11 NLT
@@SeanMcDowell You're a good man, Sean....but you have, like Many others, fallen for this Late 2nd--Early 3rd Centuries, Post Apostolic, Roman Catholic, pagan doctrine. There IS but ONE Literal, Almighty GOD----Therefore, there IS but ONE, Almighty Eternal, Omniscient....HOLY SPIRIT! Jesus is NOT a, "SPIRIT." GOD the FATHER IS! With respect.
@@SeanMcDowellI had asked and haven't seen a response maybe this doesn't go to an auto response to let me know that you have replied but who was God in John 1:1
The dimly lit room is the trinitarian room. That are not in the Bible to support the word Trinity which is not in the Bible. The Trinity is the Triad of old paganism with terms from the Bible. The Trinity is a denial of Jesus is the Lord God Almighty alone and by himself as father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. The original Orthodox Faith was modalist menarchism.
Royal Fred Sanders sounds like a liberal with his progressive revelation he doesn't believe that God gave the Jews the truth he only gave him a dimly lit room so they could barely see that God was truly 1.
@@TheCaledonianBoyNot necessarily, many times the Bible uses the word God but we know that he was addressing the Father. The best way to put is, because God is trinity then the word God can be used for any persons of the Trinity.
@SmallFridgeMinority The irony of you calling my wording "perverted" when this is literally the mainstream Christian doctrine. You'll need another 20 years before we can actually have a meaningful discussion about this and in all cases, in no way is Christianity or the bible endorsable by a thinking human-being. Jesus/God needs to die to save us from himself/themselves? So, no actually a God of mercy but a literal transaction and payment for the fact that God made us moral creatures and Adam made his first mistake? You don't realize that this is pure Pagan idolatry, human sacrifice and vicarious atonement (all Pagan ideologies). Islam is the truth and this is clearly falsehood. Even the name Jesus is false. The name Christian is false (since they're actually Paulians) and the names stamped to the gospels are also all false. This is so obvious for people that aren't going to hell.
I absolutely love this conversation. Trying to wrap my brain around this is difficult. I just believe it. But trying to explain it is the reason I try to find conversations like this. It is surprising to me how many people do not believe in the Holy Spirit.
Believing something without knowing what! Isn't this called a blind faith? Jesus knew the God whom he worshiped. He told the Samaritan woman: (John 4:22) You worship what you do not know; WE WORSHIP WHAT WE KNOW, because salvation begins with the Jews.
One of the primary reasons why this is confusing for humans is because we are one being (human) with one personhood (Sean, Fred, etc.). God is not like us in this regard, in that He is one being with three personhoods. Thus, we struggle to understand this, which is both logical and reasonable since this relates to God; divinity cannot be dissected and fully understood by a creature.
I’m agnostic on this doctrine because I’m careful to follow 1 Corinthians 4:6, where we are specifically told not to go “beyond what is written”. I believe this doctrine has done that and thus has essentially violated what Paul said. I also think it has the potential to be a thing that empties the Cross of its power as Paul speaks about in 1 Corinthians 1:17 and the beginning of Chapter 2. I think on this issue, we should also be Proverbs 3:5 thinkers and be extremely gracious about it and extra careful. Just stick with what the scriptures say, and use that language. Don’t invent other doctrines or phrases that may empty the cross of its power and might even lay a stumbling block in the way of someone, which is another thing Paul stresses not to do! For these matters, I follow all of these guidelines from the Scriptures: Learn by us not to go beyond what is written, rightly handling the word of truth, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Do not teach any different doctrine. See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit. I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments. Avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law or about words, for they are unprofitable and worthless, leading some to wander away into vain discussion, which promotes speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. Insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. Be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
Hi, Greg. I am just curious to know in which aspect you believe the doctrine of the Trinity goes beyond Scripture. 1) There is one God 2) The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God 3) The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are not each other That summarizes what the Bible teaches on the nature of God, so to not believe it would be to reject one of these three things. Thanks!
@@biblicalworldview1 - I’m agnostic on the general idea of the Trinity, in that God is one substance, composed of 3 persons. I also wonder if it really even matters, since from my perspective most of it is a philosophical exercise which, at the end of the day, doesn’t lead to producing good works but instead has ventured into speculation. But my biggest concern is that the church has done all of that and then placed a “you must believe this or you don’t have the correct Jesus” stamp on it. That is scary imo since it flirts with introducing infallible division by the means of a fallible interpretation by men who aren’t apostles and who didn’t write any scripture. I think the church has done this to such a degree that many of us can barely see straight and our faith rests in the wisdom of men rather than on the word of God.
@@babylonsfall7 I appreciate that, but when you reject the Trinity, you are saying either there is 1) NOT only one God, 2) The Father IS the Son or the Holy Spirit, or 3) Jesus is not God or the Holy Spirit is not God. A true believer would believe God as He is. It's not the same as having the rapture wrong or when the millenium is. If you'd read a short book, I highly recommend "The Forgotten Trinity" by James White. I understand being humble and agreeing that we cannot know everything about God, because He is God and we are not. But we surely ought to believe what He says about Himself in the Bible.
@@biblicalworldview1 - agnostic means something different than “reject”. However I do think that the church has swerved away from the truth due to human argumentation on issues like this. And have thus, emptied the Cross of its transforming power like Paul warned in 1 Cor 1:17 would happen if you added to the gospel or went beyond what is written. For example, I agree that Jesus is God but God just means “elohim”. As in Psalms 82 that Jesus quoted “you are gods”. But he also didn’t posses all knowledge, lacking where the Father wasn’t lacking. Also there can only be one “Most High” Elohim. If there are 3 person who share “Most High Status” and you addresses any of them singly, they would not be the “Most High”. Lastly, I can not make sense of a passage like this on the general Trinity rubric: “Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.” 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 ESV There are clearly two “entities” referenced here and only one of them is ruling over the kingdom at a time. And I think the issue here is that “God” can just mean “elohim” or spiritual being, and yet is universally translated as if it’s referring to the “Most High” father elohim. So for example in John when it says “was with God and was God.” If God means “Elohim” or spiritual being, then it makes sense in a way that is not saying what the usual Trinity definition is saying, which is that God here means “the Most High Elohim”, a title of the Father alone. Does this make sense?
@@biblicalworldview1 - anyways here is my current view on all of this, based on what I see in scripture: Father = Most High Elohim Son = Image of Most High Elohim, firstborn of the Father. Himself is Elohim, but not the Most High. Became->Jesus = permanent fusion of man and the pre-extant Son, truly man, but also truly Elohim, raised to power by the Most High Father to a status above all other created things, in charge of the Kingdom currently, but will one day hand it back over to the Most High Elohim, his Father. Holy Spirit = emanates from the Most High Father. Himself is Elohim, but not the Most High. Indwells Jesus and believers in him, granting them divine gifts.
Typically Church Councils, like the council in Jerusalem reported in Acts. It is perhaps hard for us moderns to understand in an age where everything is written down, but bear in mind that the Epistles were written before any of the Gospels had been committed to vellum. At the time Paul was writing he'd committed the teachings of Christ to memory. Similarly, the Didache seems to have been written at least before copies of the Gospels were widespread. Prior to that teachings of Christ were transmitted verbally by the disciples and their disciples, and even where they were written down they still required exposition to avoid the spread of misunderstanding and heresy, especially when preaching to gentiles who spoke a myriad of languages. To give you an idea of how quickly it spread, Jesus died c. AD 33, by AD there were churches in Syria, what's now Turkey, Macedonia, Rome, Ethiopia and Egypt, and by the end of the century there were churches in Spain, Gaul and perhaps even India. In a time when reproducing a single Gospel would take perhaps a week of copying if you had the resources much of the early spread must have been verbal. And don't under estimate their facilities of recall - Jesus could recite one line and his audience were expected to recognise the psalm/OT verse and understand all the cultural context that went with it. There are also writings from the Dead Sea scrolls at Qumran which seem to show that trinitarian thought was already present in Judea before the Birth of Christ. Just remember, the Early Church Fathers were much closer to Jesus and the Disciples than we are, and some of them knew disciples personally. Trust them before you trust anyone tainted by the enlightenment. God Bless
Great stuff brothers, stay encouraged! 3 dimensional beings… trying to describe our triune, loving God, who created time, space and all matter. What an amazing thing that He stepped into His creation, to reveal Himself to us, and pay the price that we may come to know and love Him back
Thanks so much for this. Have always had a nagging longing to better understand the Trinity. This has helped greatly, although my head is still spinning a bit. BUT…I do feel spurred on to pray for understanding and research deeper. Thanks again.
This is a really good explanation. I am trying to help my Tagalog speaking oneness Pentecostal friend to understand the trininty and it's been challenging.
Just stick with what the Scriptures say and don’t worry about these doctrines that are not in there. No one found it necessary to explain the “Trinity” in the first century, so there’s no reason we should need to do so today. As for Oneness, that easy to refute using clear and explicit Scriptural passages.
Oneness need to face the fact that Oneness makes Jesus a "fake son" not a real son... and when you get down to it, Oneness denies the deity of Christ, surprisingly. With Oneness, the relationship between the Father and the Son becomes a charade, because they believe the Father is the same person as the Son. So, there's no actual love relationship between persons. When they do make a distinction between the Father and the Son, they make the Son into a man only, which denies His deity. So, the main issue with Oneness is, they do not have both the Father and the Son. The love relationship between the Father and the Son is Eternal Life. To have Eternal Life you must be in the Son of the Father.
min 44..."its crucial to get it right" - soooo you noticed, side stepped...and posed to "organizations" being harder on it...which one is it? Yes or no for trinity req. and salvation?
Well I think he didn’t quite answer it either. I was envisioning a person who put their faith in Jesus as the son of God and Savior but didn’t really understand it very well yet. And maybe they didn’t understand the Holy Spirit at all yet. But they genuinely put their trust in Jesus as their savior. Then they would receive the Holy Spirit but not yet understand what that even was. That person could be saved I think. Then later they could come to understand better. But they could still be converted: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.” Right? Children, for example, don’t understand very much yet-certainly not the Trinity. But they can see their need for a Savior and understand that they have to put their trust in Him.
While hearing what was said about analogies, I need one. As a technologist, this is mine. Picture an AI. The same AI can be the "mind" of and animate multiple robots at the same time; each robot can be performing different activities. Interact with any individual robot (maybe one is red, a second is green and a third is blue) and you are still really interacting with the same, single back-end AI. The "what" is the AI; the "who" is the red robot, the green robot, the blue robot.
@First_Chapter the true Biblical understanding is that the Spirit is the breath/mind/power/presence of God. God is a spirit. He is breath and life. Jesus is the begotten Son of God. He was also spirit or breath. But Jesus then became the Son of Man, becoming human to manifest the character of God. He is His express or graven image. That is why we are not t9 make graven images. Because Jesus and humans are the ones He created. And Jesus is the only image of God we need. Because we corrupt any image we make and rely on our own works instead. Jesus then had to return to His Father to be glorified and so He could be made into a life giving Spirit again. As an unglorified human he couldn't be the parakletos. The Spirit of Christ is actually the Father sharing His spirit through the spirit of His Son. The spirit is the power and presence of both. When Christ knocks on the door of the church of laodicea, He is trying to tell the CHURCH to let Him in. They have the wrong spirit. HE is the Spirit, not some 3rd person of a God that doesn't exist.
Trinity in one verse, Isaiah 48:16 NKJV - “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me.”
@@djparsons7363 Why did the Lord GOD and His Spirit do something? Why is 'have' plural, instead of 'the Lord God has' (singular)? Please explain why this verse doesn't rightly read, 'And now the Lord GOD has sent Me'? After all, God is not divided - God is One.
@@Mic1904 That is just a matter of the translators choosing that rendering because it supports the idea of a trinity that has always been the agenda of a King James Bible. My NWT has no such bias, thus the rendering is clear. (Isaiah 48:16) Come near to me, and hear this. From the very start I have not spoken in secret. From the time it happened I was there.” And now the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has sent me, and his spirit.
@@djparsons7363 Jesus, however, is not, JEHOVAH. Jesus's Hebraic name is-----YESHUA, which differs from YHWH, ELOHIM, ADONAI, and, EL SHADDAI, which are the Names of GOD the FATHER. AND; HOLY SPIRIT, is not some Mysterious "FORCE," like some people Assert. GOD the FATHER is that One and Only HOLY SPIRIT. If GOD the FATHER ISN'T the HOLY SPIRIT....Then just what IS HE? With all respect.
@@raygsbrelcik5578 I have never said that Jesus is Jehovah because I know he isn't, Jehovah is almighty God, Jesus is his Son, the very first creation by the Father. I disagree about the Holy Spirit, it is not a person, It is a powerful force that Jehovah controls and uses in many different ways to accomplish his will. HE isn't Holy Spirit, it is a tool, so to speak, that he uses. Jehovah never leaves his Heavenly dwelling place, he projects his Holy Spirit to do many things, from parting the Red Sea, enabling Jesus to heal sicknesses and raise the dead, destroying Sodom and Gomorrah etc. For those who think the Holy Spirit is a living person, if that were so "he" would have a name, any prominent figure in Scripture has a name but not Holy Spirit because it isn't a person.
I have never read the bible through. I am really trying not to be mislead like I have been so many times. I don't like being put into a label or box. I just know I am a child of God. In your opinion, would it be better to read with prayer for clarity by myself or just pick a church to go to because they are a church and are the house of God and they know how to teach me? I hope this makes sense.
Hei, just begin by the gospels (the new testament). Then you can move to other parts. And when you have a relationship with the Creator, you can look for a church rear your house. I will be praying that the Holy Spirit Guide you along the way.
Start with genesis and keep going until you realize it's just mythological nonsense that primitive humans invented. I bet you don't make it to Numbers, the fifth book.
@justin10292000 I know you believe that Justin. Th same way 3 billion Muslims and Hindus on the planet today are convinced that their indoctrinated beliefs are true. You have been brainwashed, the same as them. Yahweh never existed. He was a human invention, the same as thousands of other gods humans invented to try and explain our existence.
@justin10292000 Yahweh was originally a second tier diety in the Canaanite pantheon from which Judaism evolved. The most high god was El. The Hebrew patriarchs worshipped El. Yahweh wasn't invented until the time of Moses. Exodus 6 2-3 NOG 2 Elohim spoke to Moses, “I am Yahweh. 3 I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as El Shadday, but I didn’t make myself known to them by my name, Yahweh. According to the myth, El and the goddess Asherah had many children. The sons of God (second tier dieties). Each son was given a nation to rule over. Chemosh-Moab, Baal- Canaan Milcom-Ammon, Qaus-Edom, Yahweh-Israel etc. Deuteronomy 32 8-9 ESV When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.[b] 9 But the Lord's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage. Editors later changed sons of God to angels of God to hide the polytheism but the oldest manuscript found at the dead sea scrolls says sons of God. I hope this helps.
Amazing...at 57:50...."praying to the Holy Spirit is not unbiblical but there are no examples in scripture for it." WOW...to me it sounds as if it is unbiblical if it is not in the scriptures.
He said it’s “not unbiblical in the deeper sense”, meaning it is not contrary to scripture or against the teachings of scripture, meaning there is freedom to do so. You need to learn what unbiblical means, how to listen carefully, and how to be charitable.
Our Lord used analogies. Here's one of mine: "Coming Closer to the Wind, Coming closer every day. He will bring us to the Father By the True and Living Way."
I think C.S. Lewis did great work in trying to explain the unexplainable - that God is an extra-dimensional being. His is not part of our universe and is not subject to its limitations. Things work differently in that dimension (he IS the dimension, in a sense.) Lewis described the difference between a first-dimensional line, a 2nd-dimensional square, and a 3rd-dimensional cube - the line from the first dimension is also in the second dimension, but it works and relates differently and creates a new and different thing, which is ONE square. The ONE square from the second dimension also exists in the third dimension but combines and functions differently to create ONE cube. In our dimension of time and space one person/being can have multiple roles or modes, as described in the video - but generally, they can only do or be one thing at a TIME. Yahweh exists as a single being that manifests as 3 persons that can function in the 3 roles independently and simultaneously without ever a splitting or having a separation of essence, which is apparently fully possible outside of our dimension. In the end though, illustrations do always fall short, but that does not make them less true - I scientist can write out a formulaic equation on a board that is a true and accurate analysis of how gravity works, but the equation on the board, though true, is not ACTUALLY gravity.
Genesis 1:26 Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness” If the Creator is “triune", that is 3 persons (or “minds”) in one God (as practically all of Christendom teaches), should we not see a reflection of this in His human creation? Well, from as far as we can tell, people, who are made in His image seem to be clearly defined as individuals, singles with a clear separation of distinctive individual bodies with one single unique mind and one single unique personality.
No, “practically all of Christendom” does **not** teach “three minds”! This is a serious area of confusion throughout trinitarian Christendom. Those who identify as “classical/historical” trinitarians teach that the Trinity only has one will, one mind. To teach three wills, three minds within the Godhead risks teaching tri-theism, in their view. When saying “person”, classical/historical trinitarians are careful to not use human-person analogies. Since three distinct human persons have three distinct minds, that is not analogous to the persons of the Godhead in the “historical/classical” view. Whenever they say “person”, they insist that terms like “subsistence” is more what they mean. (As to how you define “subsistence”, I have no clue.)
Genesis 1:26 in my opinion is most likely a reference to God speaking to the angels in the Divine Assembly - and right after he says for I have made man in my image- Male and Female HE created them. God is announcing the task that He is about to do to the Angels. It is called a cohortative clause and he is speaking to a group of people. If you read the trinity in that verse you have specifically the "us" making man but you have singular in all the other creative acts. It doesnt make sense to hold that view in my opinion and you would have the Father telling the Son and Holy Spirit that we are to be made in the Image of the Father- it doesnt make sense. However like Dr. Sanders said, most of our reasons for believing in the Trinity come from the NT and we should stick to fundamental texts like Matthew 11 and other NT texts, and then see the Adumbrations of the Trinity in the OT
@@marksbeats3053 I concede that part of what you say seems reasonable, and I sympathize with sticking to the New Testament texts while being cautious with our reading of the First Testament. That said, there’s a problem with the divine council view in Genesis. We see “us” in Genesis 11:7 as well, but then Genesis 11:8 clarifies that it’s the Lord God who goes down - with no divine council to be seen.
As a theologian you may want to consider . 1. Neither does the Flat Earth with an upturned edge under a Firmament contradict scriptures (which I believe) 2. Scriptures are designed for children to understand 3. Scriptures are self-explanatory if you need to explain them to someone then you're overthinking them.
Flat earth may not contradict scripture, but it contradicts science. Not all children can understand all scripture. People come from different backgrounds and educational levels. Some concepts may be harder for some to understand, and need more explanation.
@@lisanlovesName one culture that doesn’t understand the relationship between a father and his son? Will any one of them conclude that they are the same human “being”? No. It’s ridiculous. Therefore, the Trinity is likewise equally absurd.
@@lisanlovesThere is no such thing as an “eternal son.” This is just Trinitarian wishful thinking read into the text. All the language used to describe Christ is temporal, e.g. “son”, “firstborn”, “begotten”, “beginning”, “creation”, “created”, “origin”, “became”, “representation”, “image”, etc. There’s nothing that denotes “eternality” when it comes to Jesus. Such a notion is foreign to the Bible.
I'd like to hear Fred's justification for saying the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, rather than from the Father. If anyone has any recommendations for an explanation of the Western Church's argument for adding the Son to that part of the Nicene Creed, I'd like to read it. I don't have a commitment to either side of the Filioque question but would like to look into it. In any case, I found it a bit frustrating that Fred took a position on that issue without explaining or justifying his reason for taking that position.
Jesus says he will send his spirit in Luke 24. This has typically been the church’s defense. Fred doesn’t have to justify the statement, because the topic is not about the sending of the Holy Spirit and the discussion of the Filioque is a niche Christian disagreement.
I remembered "a great suggestion" in order to understand God: " Seek not to understand that you may believe, but seek to believe that you may understand ..."
Not a suggestion from the bible. As faith comes hope and we must reason our hope as 1 Peter 3:15. Blind faith allows people to believe in nonsense like Jesus being God, but if you read the Holy Bible he was not nor could legally be other than a man, whose Father was God.
@Simon Skinner You could not be more wrong. Many Scriptures make it clear that Jesus is God and claimed it repeatedly. However, one only has to point out that Jesus was crucified for blasphemy -- precisely the "blasphemy" of claiming to be God Himself, I Am. Do you not believe the Bible?
@@justin10292000 Jesus was possessed by the Holy Spirit that he received at baptism, as Jesus explained in John 5:31 he as a person was not witness to himself, but his Father who he impersonated. Blasphemy was for breaking Sabbath and calling himself Son of God as John 5:18, he never would or could claim to be God, he had to be born of a woman under the law to qualify to be the Messiah. When he said "I am'" those words came from God who was inside him. My latest Ytube video 'John 3:13 Did Jesus come down from heaven? No #28 Myths in so-called Christianity' exposes another misreading of the NT as people try to make Jesus into the Creator.
@@justin10292000 many scriptures make it clear that Jesus is God lol yet your church fathers, history, primary sources say otherwise. it's hilarious how, no matter what, idolators will find their way to the fire.
I needed this video. Thanks. I like the term Threeness of God and I have a suggestion for all those who think of God as Father (1) + Son (1) + HS(1) = 3 Persons...How about we say Father (1) x Son (1) x HS (1) = 1 Person
@ChristineLynnForTheWin Hi ChristineLynn. Thanks for the comment. I like the way you made your comment. It was gracious. I wish you could go a little further and help me understand how I might be heretical.
This man Fred was very “unboring.” I liked this discussion. Weird that it popped up today. I am co-teaching 5-7 year olds on the “ABC’s of God.” This next Sunday we are teaching on the Trinity. I was wanting to listen to something to add to my understanding as I prepare. And this popped up! Fred, how would you explain the Trinity to 5-7 year olds?? I have some idea based on listening to this video….but I’d love to hear your exact wording.
@@carsonphillips1377..... tell us a bit more about this trinity thing. Yeah Patrick tell us but remember that we're simple people without your fancy education in books and learning and we're hearing about all of this for the first time so try to keep it simple.....Okay Patrick?
How important is the Trinity? I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Indeed not the word Trinity) are mentioned in the first 7 church creeds. Justification by faith is not mentioned in any of the early creeds. Hmmm?
The trinity is important for Satan. to make a Problem for the connention with GOD trough Jesus the Christ. The trinity is a Spirit of confusion. amd uncertainty
@@hommerecorder7003the only confusion is you trying to claim God let His church fall into complete heresy. The trinity is completely supported by scripture.
@@bruhmingo bud! you said "The trinity is completely supported by scripture." *can you show where Jesus himself teaches that God is 3 in 1 and all are equally divine?*
@@bruhmingothe church was falling into heresy during Paul’s time. And the Bible tells us that we will trade truth of God for a lie. There will be a falling away. False church, etc. not saying trinity is a heresy for sure or not, but that argument “God wouldn’t let his church” isn’t true because he literally warned them about it. Also there are stuff the church believes today that was deemed heretical back then and would have been kicked out or worse. Heresy became defined by human standards rather than God’s.
@@SeanMcDowell And WHY do we read the Following in Both, PSALM 8:5, and the N.T. Fulfillment....HEB.2:7-9; "You ( GOD) MADE him ( Jesus), a little LOWER than the Angels... and Crowned him with Glory and Honor." QUESTION; WHO, "Made" Whom? AND; WHO, "Crowned" Whom.....? And there are MANY more Scriptures that Debunk the, "Jesus is GOD," Crowd! Please, do NOT misunderstand me! This false, Pagan doctrine was Designed to DIVIDE the Churchworld Against itself! And That is PRE CISELY what it has DONE!
@@raygsbrelcik5578 If you check an interlinear, you will realize that "made ... lower" is one word. The word "made" is used in the same way as in the sentence "You made me happy". It is impossible for the verse to mean that the Son was created.
I'm curious why Sr. Sanders said a person should pray mostly to God, sometimes to Jesus, and it's ok or not unbiblical to pray to the Holy Spirit. Since the Trinity is One person, why should or does it matter which name one uses?
@@SeanMcDowell You're a good man, Sean----but there is MUCH You know NOT, concerning this, "trinity" thing! With all respect, it is a Man made, Post Apostolic, Dark Age Doctrine. There IS but ONE, Literal, Almighty GOD...Therefore, there IS but ONE, Almighty, Eternal, Omniscient HOLY SPIRIT. THAT can ONLY be...the FATHER! Jesus, contrastly....is NOT the FATHER. Nor is he a,....SPIRIT. "SON of GOD," is NOT the same as, IS GOD, my friend! Seek WISDOM. Seek Truth.
As one who identifies as trinitarian, I will admit there are challenges. Which version/model of the Trinity do we subscribe to? To take Dean’s advice, look at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy’s entry on the Trinity… it could be the case that we’re conflating several versions/models of the Trinity together. On that note, it’s important to focus on some differences. There are “classical/historical” trinitarians who say the Trinity only has one will. To teach more than one will is to risk teaching tri-theism, in their view. On the other hand, we have “social-hierarchical” trinitarians who claim that the Son is eternally subject to the Father’s authority. But the “classical/historical” pushback is that eternal subjection demands more than one will within the Godhead, which goes against the “classical/historical” view of there being one will in the Trinity. As well, how do we define “person”? Do we take the social-hierarchical route to say that the family unit, the Genesis 2:24 model is the best analogy for the three persons? (While maintaining that no analogy is perfect.) Or do we take the “classical/historical” route to avoid using human-person analogies - to instead emphasize that “person” is more like a “subsistence” or, as Boethius phrased it, “individual substance of a rational nature”? (And then, how do we even define such terms, like “subsistence”?) The more I dive in, the more I feel… dispirited.
Please stop 🛑. Don’t dive too far in without knowing how to ask the Holy Spirit. The three aspects/persons of The One God always point back to the same one Will. They always support each other’s testimony and never divert to lead one astray. With the subsistence,God being infinitely powerful Omnipotent, has the ability to not only sustain and support himself as one but as the Son Jesus Christ, and as The Holy Spirit. Please don’t keep asking SOO many questions at one time without stopping to wait for An Answer or Two. There is a song that literally states “ I’m going to wait for An Answer from you.” I fervently pray that you will not allow the questions to throw you further down the rabbit hole of infinite questions. Please let me know if this helps you at all and when you slow down I’m sure it will help as well.❤️🙏🏽💯
You are overcomplicating and overthinking this my friend. I can explain the Trinity via a simply demonstration. Since the essence of all three are exactly the same, it leads all three to the same will, yes Jesus wanted to rid himself of his cup (death) if there was another way, but he still yielded to the Father's will, so he trusted the Father and thus the Fathers will was his will. Jesus had to overcome the flesh also, thus he needed to pray. Jesus was led into the desert by the Spirit, when he denied Satan over a period of time he came out of the desert in the *Power of the Spirit* As per the Trinity: Lets take a three (3) trillion gallon reservoir of water, it has the exact same chemical makeup throughout in every ounce of water (PHD levels). Likewise the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE in Essence and Likeness, they are Love, Hope, Joy, Peace Kindness etc. etc. So, take 100 gallons (Jesus) of that water and pour it over your head, you will be soaking wet but A-OK. Again, take another 100 gallons of water (Holy Spirit) and pour that over your head also, again, you will no doubt be soaked, but not harmed in the least. NOW...........take the whole three (3) trillion gallons (God the Father) of water and pour that over your head and you will surely die !! Only God the Father has the Abundance of the Glory. Hence men could look upon Jesus and live, the Holy Spirit lives in our hearts and we are not harmed, hence we receive God's Peace, Joy, Love Hope etc. etc. but if we actually looked upon the Glory of God the Father we would die, like the 70 did who looked into the Ark of the Covenant, Moses saw His hinder parts and glowed it is said. Since they are all one in Spirit, they all have the exact same mind/will, but their offices are three different offices. We have God the Father, God the Redeemer and God the Helpmate. I understand you problem is via the will, but Love, Hope, Peace, Joy always has the will of perfection. There is no other choices for all three, when that happens you get Lucifer rebelling.
@@MrRondonmon Not really. This is basic stuff. Ironically, the complicated part rests within the historical/classical view of personhood, whereas the social-hierarchical view may be guilty of simplifying too much. I did focus on the “will” part , but there’s the issue of “mind” as well. How do we say there are three distinct “persons”, and yet only one mind as the “historical/classical” view teaches? It just seems like trinitarians struggle with a fine line between: - teaching modalism as to erase any real distinction on one hand - or teaching too much distinction between the “persons” - leaning towards “tri-theism” on the other. It just seems like there’s always a tension. As for the subjection of will (Luke 22:42), the classical/historical view teaches that Christ has two wills - one human will, one divine will. That it’s the human will that’s subject to the Father, not the one divine will possessed by the other two persons. That Christ has two wills is labeled “chalcedonian” - the Orthodox view of Christology, which many, if not most lay-trinitarians are not aware of.
I've found the Trinity to be confusing and beyond my ability to really comprehend. But what real thing isn't hard to understand? I would expect the finite to have a very hard time understanding the infinite. And the fact that people have a hard time understanding this I feel lends credence to it being the truth.
If you cant explain something to someone in an understandable way you don’t understand it yourself. But sure let’s give god a pass on explanation cause he’s only going to torture people for eternity…. Wait..
@@logan666 Wrong, God does not condemn anyone, people foolishly condemn themselves by refusing to accept the free gift of Salvation. So, God is a perfect and holy God, He CAN NOT enter the Presence of sin did you know that? His Holy Being would destroy that sin, that is why Jesus had to be left all alone on the cross and that why he cried out "My God, my God why have you forsaken (left) me? When Jesus rose and saw Mary, in John ch. 20, he told her touch me not for I have not yet ascended unto the Father, but 8 days later he told Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds. If Mary had merely touched Jesus she would have defiled the Sacrificial Offering and God could nit have accepted it because it would have had sin stained hands on the sacrifice. So, life lies in the blood, our sin is death and thus we needed and atonement of innocent blood in order for God to justify us, and cleanse of from our sins, he sent Jesus who loved us enough to do that or else Satan would have already defeated us. Satan is the god of this world as we speak, God had to win us back. So, in essence you were condemned to hell by the Sin Stain of Adam, and Jesus died for you, all you have to do is accept that FREE GIFT. Now, what would you call a man on *DEATH ROW* who refused a *Pardon* ? Most people would call him very, very dumb, and they would have to say what? Ultimately that man *CONDEMNED HIMSELF* and thus Gid is not torturing you, you are refusing His FREE GIFT that can give you life eternal, and you instead listen to the liar Satan who deceives you, you blame God when it was that LYING FOOL who created a chasm n=between man and God. Thus you will win your prize, Hell was created for Satan and his Demons, yet YOU............YOU..........YOU are choosing to be separated from God for eternity, because He can not welcome anyone to heaven with sin in their life. So, you will win your prize Satan and his demons will indeed torture you, and laugh at you, every time they defile you. And God is just not able to receive the FOOL who refuses the FREE GIFT of Eternal Life, because God's Presence can not abide sin. DUH
You spoke of the relationship of the Son to the Father in terms of what it is NOT.... not created, not subordinate. Is there a good way to explain in positive terms why Jesus chose these two family roles to explain their relationship?
@@cc3775 Actually, why couldn’t we say that He did choose? Couldn’t we say that God the Father chose that human word for the human role of father in order for us to more closely understand His relationship to us? He works within the boundaries of our limited language to convey lofty things.
@@yvichenj333 Jesus could not do anything by himself. Jesus only followed GOD's command. What are you saying??? In John 5:30, Jesus says, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge" Jesus could not do anything by himself and he needed permission and was dependent.
The Trinity for me is the hardest thing to understand.. when you read the bible, Jesus is praying to the father (third person) when Jesus gets baptised by John, As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”.. How are we supposed to get that all this is just one person. Is Jesus talking to himself, praising himself......... So difficult this to fathom in a logical sense, and like most, i do want to get this right, but i can see why some people can think this is some paganism creeping in to the early church... What makes more sense to me is, God is so divine, and outside time and space, not of this universe, that he needs divine holy Channels of communication, which is the Father, son and holy spirit... and again....... Jesus says the only way to God is through me, Jesus Christ. (God in the third person again) it just fries your brain the more you think about it, because all the evidence is there, that this trinity theory, in the way they want you to believe, is wrong, and made up, in a way, to stop it seeming like there is more than one God, so they have to come up with this convoluted idea, because without it, then we are getting into 3 Gods and paganism. We Accept Angels speaking for God, but they are not God, so why does Jesus have to be God, to be a representative of God, why cant he just be like Angel Gabriel who came to Mary. how can Jesus be God, when Jesus is sitting on the right side of God... Non of it makes any sense to me..
John 14:10-11 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. John 10:30 "30 I and my Father are one." John 14:20 "20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." Matthew 3:16 "16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:" Colossians 1:19 "19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;" Colossians 2:9 "9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Matthew 28:19 "19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Or when God describes himself in plural in Genesis 1:26 Genesis 1:26 "26 And God said, Let us make man in our image..."
@@-Pierre Do you think all of these John verses tell us that Jesus is God? John “17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.”KJV Hmmmm. It says here that all of Jesus’ disciples are one with him and with the Father. And that they are in them. Does that mean all of Jesus’ disciples are God too? Be consistent. Colossians verses. 1Corinthians “6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”KJV John “2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.”KJV Where does God dwell? In a temple right? Jesus is the temple of God. We are also the temple of God if we have the spirit of God dwelling within us. Again, according to your reading of scripture, all of Jesus’ disciples are God as well. A temple is the house God dwells in. The fullness of God dwells in his temple. God dwelled in the temple in Jerusalem, do you mistake that temple as being God as well? Again, be consistent. Mathew 28:29 what name do we baptize in? According to Acts, we baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. Acts “2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”KJV Is Gods name Jesus? No, Gods name is YHWH. Do Jesus and God have the same name? According to revelation they do not. Revelation “3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”KJV Another interesting tidbit regarding Acts 2:38. The Holy Spirit is a gift. Is a person a gift? Mathew 3:16. Ironically, this so called trinity proof text actually shows the moment that the word became flesh in a 30 year old man Jesus of Nazareth, absolutely destroying the trinitarian interpretation of John 1. Don’t take my word for it, see the testimony of the witness John provided in John 1. Genesis “1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”KJV You might have wanted to read just one verse farther. God was not alone in heaven when he created man BY HIMSELF. There were also angels present. When you start using plural pronouns to try to prove a trinity, you are actually acknowledging the fact that you worship more than one god. Is that really what you want to do? Perhaps you should think it through.
@@driller7714 You present a fairly coherent case as to why the doctrine of the Trinity should be examined. Yet, I think you overreach in your assumptions and do not take the whole of Scripture into consideration. You would probably say the same thing about those, like myself, who believe the Trinity to be correct doctrine. To answer your critiques and questions: In John 17, what is the "one" that Jesus is speaking of? Is it one in being? If it is, then you can say that your interpretation is correct. However, if it is not, then you are simply reading your viewpoint into the text. The context would seem to point to a oneness of purpose - "so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me...I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them." John 17:23 and 26. This would support the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons, one being, and one in purpose. In Colossians, Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation." This is referring to his place as ruler of all creation, his pre-eminence as eternal God. "In him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell" and "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily". Jesus is truly God and truly man. See also Philippians 2:5-11. Regarding the temple, the verse you quoted states that the Holy Ghost dwells in us. If God dwells in us and the Holy Ghost dwells in us, this would support the Trinity - that the Holy Ghost IS God. Acts 7:48-49 says, "Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made by hands, as the prophet says, 'Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest?'" Jesus's body was the temple of God - as the Colossians and Philippians passages demonstrate - precisely because He was literally God made flesh (John 1:14). You could also reference Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 9:6, Romans 8:3. I assume you mean Matthew 28:19 - and we baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." The Greek here supports the oneness of being and the separate persons. Basically, it is three "whos" (persons) and one "what" (being). Also, the "in" can be translated as "into", which would support the oneness of purpose from John 17 that Jesus prayed for his followers. This would also clarify the Acts 2:38 statement. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through him. (John 14:6) Thus, being baptized in the name of Jesus is being baptized INTO the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (God). Is God's name Jesus? Technically, no, the name of the Son is Yeshua. The name that God gives Moses is YHWH, or I AM. Yet, Jesus says in John 8:58: "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." He also says this in John 18:5 and 8. The term in Greek is "ego eimi" - this is how the Septuagint translates Exodus 3:14. See also in John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." The response by the Jews in John 8 and 10 is telling - they pick up stones to stone Jesus. Why? John 10:33: the Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God." The Jewish people recognized immediately what Jesus claimed - that he WAS God. Not a representative or a creation of God, but the same being. Revelation 3:12 - what is the new name? Revelation 19:11-13 would seem to answer that question: "Faithful and True" and "The Word of God." Thus, in Revelation 3:12, those who keep his word through patient endurance and hold fast to what they have will be called Faithful and True. I would not call Matthew 3:16-17 a "proof-text" for the Trinity, but it does seem to show the difference in person between the Father and the Son and the Spirit. As to the Holy Spirit being a gift and your question "Can a person be a gift?" - the answer quite clearly is yes, a person can be a gift. In Ephesians 4:11-12, people as gifts are given to the church "And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ..." The Holy Spirit is God - clearly seen in Acts 5:3-4. Additionally, the Holy Spirit is a person - he calls people and has work for them to do (Acts 13:1-3) is one example. As to Matthew "absolutely destroying the trinitarian interpretation of John 1" - I am not sure how you come to that conclusion. Jesus is God, he is co-eternal and co-equal with God. The Greek structure of John 1:1 makes that abundantly clear. Genesis 1:26-27 - the word for God in all of Genesis 1 is elohim. It is a plural form of the word eloah. Now, compare to Deuteronomy 4:35: YHWH is haelohim. Therefore, the plural form of God in Genesis 1, elohim, is also YHWH according to Deuteronomy 4:35. Indeed, this verse states that there is no other God beside him. How can a plural (elohim) also be a singular (YHWH)? The doctrine of the Trinity answers this question. God is one in being and three in person. Look at Isaiah 42:8: "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to anyone else, nor share my praise with carved idols." Yet Jesus receives worship from the disciples (John 20:24-29; Matthew 14:33 and 28:9). In Revelation 19:9-10, John falls down to worship the angel, but is told "You must not do that!...Worship God." If it is wrong to worship anyone but God and God himself says that He will not share His glory with another, how can Jesus say "glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."? (John 17:5) The only way this can happen is if Jesus IS God. And the doctrine of the Trinity presents this view, which is coherent with the whole teaching of Scripture. Is God addressing the angels when He speaks of creating man in Genesis 1:26? Nowhere in the Bible do we see the angels taking part in creation - Job 38 references them shouting for joy at the foundation of the earth, but they are not part of the creation process. Additionally, if God is a singular person, then He could not have had attributes clearly associated with God, especially love. "God does not live in temples made by human hands, nor is He served by humans, as if He needed anything." Acts 17:24-25. Yet, if God was singular, the only way He could love would be to create - which would mean that He did need something from humans. This, too, points to the triune nature of the Godhead.
Not adding anything of value here other than to say, you are not alone in this brain understanding disconnect. I’ve always believed the Trinity and it wasn’t until recently when trying to figure out how to pray to God the Father as Christ gives the example, that I pray to God the Father, through Christ the Son in the Holy Spirit. A hierarchy always comes to my mind… the God the Father is the Almighty, Christ the Son is the Savior, Messiah, ordained and given Authority by the Father and the Holy Spirit is His omnipresence aspect.. we’re trying to describe a concept that is beyond space and time with words that are limited by the constructs He ordained. Is it enough to say the Christ is my Savior, sent by God the Father and once you accept His salvation, He provides the Holy Spirit to seal and direct us? Do we have to understand the Trinity to be saved? I’m not sure… if God the Father gives Christ the Son Authority, it’s His to give anyway, so that makes Christ God anyway. I’m not smart enough to know how that might break things down further in scripture and possibly cause more questions or contradictions. Trinity to me, is just the word used for explaining how the Three have all Authority and are holy, worthy of praise and worship. Maybe in there we lose the personhood of the Holy Spirit to just sound like an entity, I don’t believe that. All this to say, people have been discussing this deeply for centuries, there must be some depth to arguments we do not agree with that we could understand why/how they can think that way. Maybe this is an in house discussion that doesn’t necessarily take someone out of the realm of salvation? I’ve been a Christian for almost 25 years, the doc of Trinity has always been difficult to understand, but clearly there is a relationship between the Three that is above all. I am a Trinitarian but only in as much as I can’t explain the Godness of Father, Son and Holy Spirit in any other way that does not devalue Son and Holy Spirit. Clearly, Jesus is Savior - worthy of worship!!! - clearly the Holy Spirit is holy and even the “unforgivable sin” relates to blaspheming the Holy Spirit, so He is essential too. Remember that God is just but merciful, this is important absolutely, but will He have mercy in not fully understanding the relationship between the Three? I believe so.
@@oftheborg The Scripture says Whosoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God 2jn1:9 Jesus said No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son Again; Jesus said O righteous Father the World have not known you but I know you and this have known that you sent me Jn17:25 Kjv Very Very Clear Verse JESUS SAID THE WORLD HAS NOT KNOWN GOD ALMIGHTY Jesus said and I have DECLARED to them your NAME and will declared it that the love with which you Love me may be in them and I in them (Jn 17:26) JESUS DECLARED TO HIS DISCIPLES THE NAME OF THE FATHER John said this is the MESSAGE WHICH WE HAVE HEARD FROM HIM And Declared to you that GOD IS LIGHT ( 1jn1: 5 KJV) GOD IS LIGHT JESUS IS LIGHT So.. JESUS IS THE NAME OF THE FATHER John said Only ONE SAT on the throne Rev 4:2 Paul said Jesus Throne is forever and ever heb1: 8 Question Where is the Throne of Others..? If God is 3 person..? Where is the Throne of Jehovah, Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim, Yhwh, ect..? God is One and ALONE Before me there was NO GOD formed, neither shall there be AFTER ME God was manifest in the flesh (1tim3:16) His name is,== JESUS (Not Jehovah, Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim, Yhwh, ect.) John said for many deceivers have gone out into the World who do not confess Jesus Christ come in the flesh, this is Deceiver An Antichrist 2 Jn1:7 Jesus said the first of all the commandment is HEAR O ISRAEL the Lord our God is One Lord Mark 12:29 Question Who is One Lord..? Answer Paul said Jesus Christ is One Lord (1Cort 8:6) I am the Lord and there is none else, THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE ME, I girded thee though thou has not known me Isa 45:5 One Lord one faith and One baptism One God and Father of all Paul said but even if we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you let him be Accursed (Gal 1: 8)
Where's your verse for "Jesus is the divine son of God"? Jesus calls Peter "blessed" in Matthew 16 for getting his identity right. Jesus explains in John 14:10-11 that God INDWELLS him. If he were God, that would be a ridiculous thing to say. And the first letter of John would look VERY different if the Trinity were true and Jesus were God. Would he really repeat his warning in 1st John 4:2-3 if Jesus were divine??? The man you replied to has an excellent UA-cam channel which you would do well to watch.
@@leenieledejo6849 John 10:33-3- The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
One of the best discussions on the trinity yet. One thing wasn't addressed - the definition of "person" since the claim is God in 3 persons. Sean, you are self conscious, intelligent, with a brilliant mind and some creative power, you are made in the image of God after all. Do you think your mind and creative power is another person or part of your own self? God is supremely self conscious, intelligent and has perfect mind with unlimited creative power. Why do you think God's mind and power is a separate person and not just part of HIS OWN SELF?
Do you use I am, me and myself for one literal person or three persons? GOD uses singular PROSOPO for GOD in Heb 9:24 which means FACE OR PERSON(singular and not plural), so GOD is ONE PERSON
"Three persons and one essence" or "three hypostases and one ousia" are simply them using philosophical language to get around biblical contradictions. One part of the Bible says only one God. Another part says Jesus is God. Yet multiple others treat Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit as distinct entities. Have to resolve that somehow, and they employed language from Aristotelian and Neo-Platonic metaphysics so that they could articulate it in a way that, at least grammatically, contains no contradiction. Theology involves a lot of word worship. Mystical powers are ascribed to words, such that they assume that what you are allowed to do with words is the same as what reality allows and that what words do not allow is the same as what reality disallows.
Essences are found in the store and used for cakes. There is only one occurrence of its use in the Bible. Psalms 119:160 The very essence of your word is truth, Jesus highlighted this when praying to his God Jehovah: John 17:17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.
What a horrible misrepresentation. We are trying to articulate the way God has revealed himself. If you don’t like it, take it up with God. The trinity is 100% correct because God’s word is infallible.
@@bruhmingocareful to use that argument. sounds a bit prideful “____is 100% correct because the Bible is infallible” when different denominations use that exact reasoning when they clearly have incorrect views sometimes
@@the.dannyboy The only thing that is “mixed” up is your ability to interpret scripture. Paul knows full well that there is an ontological distinction between God the Father and his only-begotten, firstborn of all creation, Jesus Christ. In fact he makes yet another ontological distinction in the very chapter of Romans you absurdly claim supports your pagan, spiritually perverted view when he asks, “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”-Rom. 11:34 This is clearly a reference to Jah proven by the fact that Paul is essentially quoting himself at 1 Cor. 2:16 where he says, "For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.” Thus you embarrass yourself by pointing to a chapter where Paul clearly spells out the fact that as Christians we can’t have the “mind of the Lord/Jah” but we can have the “mind of Christ” showing a clear distinction in nature between God’s mind and Christ’s mind. Try again…
Shalom Bro 🙋♂️ Lets have a Look at that Passage you Quoted because the Whole Chapter is About *Food offered to Idols* or False gods & lords ....Paul was Writing to a Pagan Area that had a god for this and a god for that and a lord for this and a lord for that ..... *1 Corinthians 8:5-6* (N.I.V) (5) For even if there are so-called gods , weather in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and lords) (6) yet for us there is but *ONE GOD THE FATHER FROM WHOM ALL THINGS COME FOR WHOM WE LIVE* and there is but *ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST THROUGH WHO ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE* . =================== Right it Looks to me like the FATHER & SON have the Same function " *THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE* " Or we could use your Logic and Say THE FATHER cant be LORD and the Son Cant be God ...hmmm so EVERYTIME we see LORD in the OLD TESTAMENT its Yeshua/Jesus ....Only when FATHER is Mentioned it is GOD 🙋♂️ I love the Book of Romans ESPECIALLY *Romans 9:5* (N.I.V)
Hmm my post got removed that ok i just print it out again 🙋♂️ Shalom Bro , The Scripture you Quoted , Paul was Writing to An Pagan Area in Corinth who had a god for this and a god for that and a lord for this and a lord for that ...If you read the Whole Chapter of *1 Corinthians 8* its ALL ABOUT FOOD OFFERED TO IDOLS/FALSE gods & lords. *ACTS 17:21-31* (N.I V) *1 Corinthians 8:5-6* (N.I.V) (5) For even if there are so-called gods weather in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and lords) BUT FOR US THERE IS ONLY *ONE GOD THE FATHER FROM WHOM ALL THINGS CAME AND FOR WHOM WE LIVE* and there is only *ONE LORD JESUS THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE* =================== Right to me its seems THE FATHER AND THE SON have the same Function " *FROM WHOM ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE* " But if i were to use your Logic that will be like saying *God the Father can not be LORD and Jesus the SON can not be God* Ok so Every time the word LORD is mentioned in the Old Testament it is YESHUA and ONLY when the Word FATHER is Mentioned is it God .... I love the Book of Romans ESPECIALLY *Romans 9:5* (N.I.V)
as mentioned in history, the trinity was formulated in its current form AFTER 400 YEARS - acc to Britannica - The Council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the Son is “of the same substance [homoousios] as the Father,” even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit. Over the next half century, St. Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula, and, by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of St. Basil of Caesarea, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.
Illustrations at 35:05? The confounding nature of the trinity is echoed in the confounding nature of matter. The elements of the periodic table that make up matter consist of a nucleus and electrons. The nucleus is made up of nucleons--protons and neutrons--the building blocks of atomic nuclei. Within nucleons we encounter the strongest of the fundamental forces--the strong nuclear force. Each nucleon is made up of 3 quarks--that's one nucleon consisting of 3 quarks, which cannot exist in isolation of each other. Whereas the force of electromagnetism and gravity weakens with distance between particles, the strong nuclear force increases in strength, such that it is impossible to separate quarks from each other. It's as if God imprinted the very fundamental nature of matter with his triune signature.
Really enjoyed this discussion and will be sharing it with others. As for explaining the trinity to others, I found the best analogy which is not a perfect one is that... God is the divine "family" name, and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the only members of that "family". It is similar to if only myself, my brother, and sister were the only three people left in my family. Our family name is "Skelton" but only three people make up that family name now. Like I said, it is not a perfect analogy but it seems to get the point across that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are NOT three Gods but rather "family" God consists of three divine beings! The ONE TRUE GOD, consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all interacting with each other, of the same mind and purpose, but yet, with their own unique function within the Godhead. I hope that helps with some in grasping the trinityish nature of God. ______________________ Though I don't feel it is a salvation issue, but rather a scripture technicality issue, one thing Dr Sanders stated was that Jesus has "existed always as the Son of the Father, Eternally generated or begotten second person" (about 17:32-17:58 in the video). If I understand those statements correctly, he is saying that Jesus existed as the Son of God prior to Him taking on flesh. Unless I missed a passage or more, I can't really find that idea from scripture. However, I can find that He existed prior to taking on flesh... > As God the Word: John 1:1-14, > In the form of God: Philippians 2:5-8 > As LORD GOD: Hebrews 1:8-12 > In a higher state than the angels: Hebrews 2:9-18 > As the Alpha and the Omega, the Almighty: Revelation 1:8, 17 > As I AM: John 8:58-59 There are other scriptures that show how He was known prior to taking on flesh and I can't find any that say He was known as the Son of God prior to that time. There are O.T. prophecies of Him becoming and called the Son of God but that is not seeing at the time the prophecy was made HE IS THE SON OF GOD at that time. From my understanding of scripture, Jesus was known as all of the above and by other names or designations but then He humbled Himself, placing Himself in subjection to God the Father, the Ancient of Days, the Most High God, and took on flesh. At that point, He fulfilled the prophecies about becoming and being called the Son of God, the beloved Only Begotten of the Most High God. Though God the Father, the Most High God, declared Jesus at His baptism and mount of transfiguration event as His beloved Only Begotten Son, it was through Jesus resurrection that He was confirmed beyond doubt that HE IS the Son of God (Romans 1:4) and will now forever be known as such. In other words, though all three of the Godhead knew He would become and be called the Son of God, He did not actually take on that designation and become such until He took on flesh and blood. That is how I understand it all.
I LOVE this. I grew up in a cult that denied the Trinity. It called it a "doctrine of demons" and that it was polytheism. Since I understood it (to the limited degree of human comprehension) I fell in love with the Trinity. The way you did it is the way I did it! 1. There is ONE God. 2. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. 3. They are not each other. And I do the same thing with honing in on the part with which they disagree. I like how James White puts it -- there is one What (Being): God, and there are three whos. So it's not like we're saying 1 = 3, or 1 + 1+ 1 = 1 as we are straw manned at times, because the numbers on both side of the equal side do not represent the SAME THING. I also agree that we should stay away from "object lessons" (states of matter, triangles, eggs, etc.) because they ALL fall short and fail in some way, and that's a GOOD thing. This is GOD. He is like nothing in all creation. He is unique and set apart. He is other.
Special pleading 101. 3 =/= 1 3 = 1 but the equal sign doesn’t count Question for you: if God is unique and set apart, then how can he interact in this world that is not part of him? And if he is part of nature but set apart from us then why did he make us “in his image”? No one has ever been able to tell me what parts of humanity are godly and what parts are ‘set apart’ from god…
@@logan666 I'd reread my comment, because you are committing a Straw Man fallacy regarding the 3 =/= 1, etc. You have to respond to my actual argument. You are set apart from a computer you may build, but you can certainly interact with it despite being outside of it. We are distinct from animals in that we have the capacity to reason, as God does with volition, as God has. We are moral beings, while animals are amoral. So in some ways we are like God (made in His image) in ways that nothing else in all creation is. But the ways in which God is set apart from us is almost infinite. He is holy, righteous, perfectly good, omniscient, omnipotent, Spirit, etc. We are none of those things.
@@biblicalworldview1 Exegetical Hermeneutics are required to determine Biblical Truth, my friend. GOD is ONE ( SPIRIT.). HE IS ONE ( LORD). Jesus, on the other hand-----Is NOT a, Spirit. GOD bless.
I am not the authority on the subject but I can try to answer; I think it’s because the Father and Word/Son and the Spirit have eternally existed as distinct persons, and if each were merely different ‘modes’ of God than perhaps they are less than God. But we need our Savior to be fully God and fully Man to secure our salvation. I’m sure there are better answers but I believe the answer is in this area.
Modalism is heresy because it removes the distinction between the persons of the trinity, instead proposing that God is one person who expresses himself in three different forms, ie a man can be a father, a husband, and a coach. Modalism teaches that the father son and Holy Spirit are three roles the one person of God plays, rather than the orthodox trinitarian view which states the father son and Holy Spirit and three distinct persons who share one divine essence.
I am curious explain to me from the scriptures how, under Trinitarian thinking it's logical that Jesus and God are the same person...at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations [“the times of the Gentiles,” King James Version] are fulfilled.” now we know that jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation and was the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. We can read that at Psalm 48:1, 2 these kings were unique among national leaders because they actually sat on on God's throne” as representatives of God himself. (1 Chronicles 29:23) so jerusalem was a symbol of Gods rulership right? This "trampling on by the nations happened in 607 bce when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians, God's throne became vacant and the line of kings that descended from David had been interrupted (you can read this at 2 kings 25:1-26) now this trampling wouldn't go on forever... Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: “Remove the turban, and take off the crown. . . . It will not belong to anyone until the one who has the legal right comes, and I will give it to him.” (the person saying "I" is God) (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) “The one who has the legal right” to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) so the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became king...now I can go into when exactly that happened and all that but I say all this to say or ask..if God and Jesus are the same person if Jesus was simply "God in the flesh" then went back to being "God again" after being resurrected why are we givin significant scriptures in the Bible that show that Jesus is given authority and rulership of a kingdom from his father? And then we are told from the Bible that he gives that rulership BACK to his father after he accomplishes everything he is set to do under that title of King 1Corinthians 15:24-28 says "Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him that God may be all things to everyone." He wasn't handing "himself the kingdom back and forth to himself" at different times in history he actually handed it over to his actually literal son then his son gives it back to him once it's all said and done. In Daniel 7:13,14 daniel is given a vision showing that God (the ancient of days and sovereign ruler of the universe) appoints his Son, "Jesus" rulership over his kingdom In Matthew 28:18 Jesus says he is given all authority not only on earth but also in heaven 1 Corinthians 15:27,28 states that God subjected all things under his sons feet all things EXCEPT himself Jesus earned his right to rule over his father's kingdom right? He did what Adam was unable to do, he showed that a perfect man with free will can remain loyal to God he fulfilled all the prophecies that were written about him hundreds of years before he was born on earth and he accomplished what he was sent here to accomplish. He bought back mankind's opportunity to live forever with his own life and established Christianity which enables all of us the opportunity to have a relationship with the sovereign ruler of the universe, God. He wasn't just some rich entitled brat who was handed his kingship solely on the fact that he was next in line..no he earned it. Fast forward Jesus continues to accomplish his fathers will he brings ruin to all the wicked governments does away with wicked people and establisheses peace and destroys mankind's real enemy "death" or the ability to die...Then when it's all done after after 1000 year reign the scriptures say that Jesus hands the kingdom back over to his father at 1 Corinthians 15:24 Now try and explain how this info is harmonious and accurate under the trinity doctrine...God takes the crown off his own head changes his entire identity puts the crown back on his head then takes it off again changes his identity back and them puts the crown back again??..🤴🏾🤴🏻🤴🏾 God bestowing his Kingship to his Son takes place in heaven...Jesus Giving the kingship back to his father takes place in heaven there is no "oh there is distinction of him being made flesh so we can understand it"..or "it is the essence of him that made him take his crown off and give himself a completely different identity then change is identity back and give himself the crown back" that isn't logical at all this happened in a spirit realm between 2 completely separate entities.
I want to tell you the fascinating story about when the Trinity verse was added to the Bible. This is a well-documented fact, detailed in "Whose Word Is It?: The Story Behind Who Changed the New Testament and Why" by Professor Bart Ehrman, an expert in biblical textual criticism. In the 16th century, Erasmus, a Dutch scholar, produced the first printed edition of the Greek New Testament. The New Testament was originally written in Greek, but had been translated into Latin over the centuries. Erasmus aimed to create a critical scholarly edition based on Greek texts, relying mainly on late medieval manuscripts from the 12th century. Erasmus’s edition of the Greek New Testament was later used by the translators of the King James Bible and other versions until the end of the 19th century. However, the Greek manuscripts Erasmus used were not of high quality and were produced about eleven hundred years after the originals. For example, his main manuscript for the gospels included the story of the woman taken in adultery and the last verses of Mark, which were not part of the original gospels. One key passage missing from Erasmus’s manuscripts was 1 John 5:7-8, known as the Johannine Comma, which explicitly supports the doctrine of the Trinity. This passage is found in Latin Vulgate manuscripts but not in the majority of Greek manuscripts. The King James Version includes this verse: "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one." Bart Ehrman notes, "The Greek manuscripts that Erasmus used were not of the best quality... produced some eleven hundred years after the originals." Erasmus did not find this verse in any Greek manuscripts he consulted, so he omitted it from his first edition. This omission outraged theologians of his time, who accused him of tampering with the text. Erasmus reportedly agreed to include the verse in future editions if a Greek manuscript containing it could be produced. Consequently, a Greek manuscript was created in the 16th century, likely by translating the Latin text into Greek. Despite his reservations, Erasmus included the verse in subsequent editions. These editions formed the basis for the King James Bible and other translations for centuries. The phrase "Textus Receptus" refers to this widely accepted form of the Greek text, despite its reliance on inferior manuscripts. Modern textual scholars now insist on using older and better manuscripts to base the Greek New Testament on scientific principles. The Textus Receptus, though still revered by some fundamentalists, is based on late medieval manuscripts, whereas earlier manuscripts, such as the Codex Sinaiticus, do not contain the Johannine Comma or other later additions. Ehrman explains, "This passage... states the doctrine directly and succinctly," but it "was not in Erasmus's primary manuscript or in any of the others that he consulted." This realization challenges the solid basis for the Trinity doctrine in the Bible, making it difficult for some Christians to accept.
The Trinitarian Doctrine has really fascinated me lately, as well as the Resurrection, as well as...pretty much everything else! That being said, this interview was really insightful, Sean. I think the concept of the Trinity will always be a topic of debate. It's a very complicated thing for people to conceptualize, myself included. The way that I see it now, as a believer in the Trinity, is this: if God is the perfect being, then I should expect several aspects of His essence and nature to be beyond me. That doesn't mean I won't try to understand it, but I have to be okay with the fact that I won't get to "figure it all out" if that makes sense. Since God is the perfect being, then why would it be out of the realm of possibility to consider that He could be one essence with 3 persons? I think this is where people get caught up again. As humans, each individual is one person, as far as we currently know! But if we base our premise on solely a human perspective, then we've already forgotten his "beyondness." Anyway, thanks so much! I'm sure you get this all the time, but your content has really lit a fire in me to study apologetics and theology, and to really start looking more closely at my faith and why I believe what I do. Who knows? Perhaps one day I'll be in one of your classes! Take care!
The trinity is the test strip for Christian indoctrination. If you can stifle cognitive dissonance enough to believe that MONOtheism can be carried out by 3 gods, then you can be manipulated to believe anything. It’s actually fairly ingenious if your goal is control. (Which, if it’s not, why have sermons at all? Just read your Bible, don’t listen to anyone else interpret for you)
@@jperez7893 OH, but there IS a, "DEBATE!" The, "Athanasian Creed," is Not BIBLICAL-----It was Crafted by the Corrupt Roman Catholic religion! The term, "trinity' didn't even EMERGE onto the Churchworld until the Late 2nd--Early, 3rd Centuries. Historical FACT. AND; The term trinity is found NOWHERE in the HEBREW, or, GREEK Languages. Amen.
Sean McDowell For the Trinity "not a problem" that took a lot of complicated waffling. Unfortunately for the trinitarian you must engage in this merry dance in order to prove this non biblical doctrine.
The first division of the year is found in Genesis 1. This is where the year is divided into two seasons of summer/day and winter/night. The six days begin at the spring equinox and end at the autumn equinox and the six nights begin at the autumn equinox and end at the spring equinox. This is modified when the first night (Libra) is moved above the equinoctial line and added to the six days (Aries - Virgo) to get the sacred seven signs (Aries thru Libra). This left five nights/months representing winter (Scorpio thru Pisces). The trinity divides the year into three seasons of four months (120 days) each. An example is Nahor/winter (Sagittarius thru Pisces), Abram/spring (Aries thru Cancer), and Haran/Summer (Leo thru Scorpio). This is also the trinity of Vishnu, Brahma, and Siva. The four sons of Reuben (Aquarius/Janus) divides the year into four seasons of 90 days each.
The way I see it is like a programer creating a metaverse. The programer is outside of the metaverse but interacts with the metaverse through code and through his avatar. The Father is the programer, the Word/ Spirit is the code, the avatar is the Son. The programer can only be seen in the metaverse through his avatar and by the works he does through code. So this is why Jesus says if you see me you see the Father and that his works are by the Father or Holy Ghost. I believe Jesus is the Father and the Holy Ghost and the Son, if you are interacting with Jesus or are face to face with him, you are in the presence of the Father in his visible form and all his works are done by his Spirit. This is why if you don't know Jesus you can't know the Father because he is the Father in the flesh. Scripture also says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, just as the Father speaks the Word and Jesus' body is the Spirit made flesh. I hope this makes sense to some people. I pray to the Lord Jesus and know that my prayers go to the Father.
I like what you’re attempting here. You’ve already noticed mine, so you already know the difference. The reason I would go with an AI and subprocesses is that the Avatar of a programmer is an echo of the programmer (or User if we wanted to harken back to Tron). But the avatar of the Programmer is separate from the avatar. They aren’t the same substance, thus creating multiple gods. The self-contained subprocesses avatar of an AI that runs the meta verse is still the same substance with its subprocess, thus you can have three “persons” or as I like to say “loci of thought” but still only one being.
I’m actually impressed with these metaphors. I feel like you’ve gotten the closest to a coherent idea of the trinity compared to many others. My only gripe would be that in all the examples above, the ‘father’ God contains more information than the others. The ‘son’ and ‘spirit’ are sub populations of the father still. In these examples Jesus wouldn’t be God, he would be an avatar in gods control, or a sub process of god. You wouldn’t say that my hand and I are two separate things with the same substance (me). This is all an exercise in futility, as the trinity is inherently incoherent.
@@logan666 Well, a subprocesses could have access to all the information that the central process has or it can have less at the discretion of the central process so long as the central process left that door open and didn’t partition it’s infinite hard drive. The subprocess could be limited without infringing upon the central AI, the way Jesus was voluntarily limited. And I would say that your hand is the same substance as you. It wouldn’t be a separate person. Unless your hand had its own brain the way stegosaurus is said to have a brain in its tail. I think one of the amusing aspects of the infinite AI analogy is that if you split the processing power of an infinite AI in half each process has infinite processing power. You can make half the first again to make a third process and they will all three have infinite processing power. And while we say that the Trinity is incomprehensible by it’s nature, I’m not sure that’s true. Maybe we have just never had an information based universe before to analogize from. Or maybe I just don’t know when to quit. Either way.
@@AaronOfJerusalemAndAthens Jesus explained who God wss bv14 john 18:37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
Sometimes these people with phd have no idea what they are talking about . You have to be filled with the holy spirit to understand Scriptures ... meaning god has to Make to known to you . This guy talking about son father and holy spirit describes the trinity when in reality they are titles of one god! But if you go to act 2:38 its reveals who those titles belong to!
I have a question for all 'trinitarians'; When John said "We had a view of his Glory ,a Glory belonging to an 'only begotten from a Father" ( John 1:14). So who was this? was it 'God's only begotten Son who had come down from heaven from his Father? Or was it just a materialised human form called 'Jesus'?
It is true that there is through the New Testament the motive of Father, son, and Spirit, however this does no mean that their relationship agrees with the doctrine of the Trinity as it has been stated since 325 AD.. There are many problems that arise when we try to make sense of Jesus preexisting as God also. There are ontological problems to start with. From scripture, and studying what Adam was made of, we can see that he was made from the dust of the ground and then God breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living being. A human, then it is made of a physical body and the spirit that comes from God, so in the case of Jesus, Jesus’s body made of flesh received a spirit from God, so if we assume Jesus preexisted, where does he fit in in the body and spirit already made in the womb of Mary? Unless we say the spirit given to that body is Jesus, which that creates problems already. The angel Gabriel spoke of that child in the future tense, there was not a hint of a preexisting person coming down into Mary either. Furthermore, as we know, God is Spirit, according to Jesus, and God also never changes his nature, being human is a special creation of God, and to think God changes or can change his nature, is not scriptural or fits our understanding of who God is. Jesus, according to Paul in 1 Timothy 2:5, is a man, and so is the opinion of Peter as in Acts 2:14-36. Despite of a few verses which are used to prove Jesus’s divinity, Paul never refers to Jesus as God in any of his salutations in his letters. With respect to the Spirit, Paul in 1 Corinthians 2 10-11, shows us that the Spirit is not a separate person, but it is part of the Father, it comes from within the Father in a similar way with us, we have a spirit within us, God also has a Spirit within him called the Holy Spirit. So the model of God being a Trinity is incorrect and incoherent with the whole panoply of the Scriptures.
@TheChristianLife And one more ignorant christian. Yes, it is very true that christians do not agree on the trinity. One rather famous example of a christian who was an antitrinitarian is Isaac Newton. "That's not true it doesn't matter what you believe not all people that believe that can explain it just as well."
If a person rejects the actual Trinity, they reject God as He is and therefore cannot be a Christian. It's okay to be confused in some way or not able to fully grasp it, because we're talking about the infinite God revealing Himself to finite and limited humans.
@@velkyn1 Then Newton was not a Christian, but a theist. There's a difference between not fully grasping it, and actually rejecting Jesus' divine nature.
Pharisees, making the trinity a doctrinal requirement for salvation... So the thief on the cross gets a pass...but everyone after , no.....please. The audacity of man to place this as a requirement, when the first hundred years didn't "articulate" this doctrine.
Each person will be judged according to the degree of Revelation he or she had. The thief on the cross had so much time left to figure things out, and he did. Most of us have decades. Let's be faithful and keep (and not deny) that amount of truth that was revealed to us.
There's a degree to where human understanding of this is limited. However which of the tenets of the doctrine can you reject and still worship the God of the Bible? 1. There is ONE God. 2. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. 3. Neither is the other. (They personally relate to one another.) Maybe you can make a case for #3 if someone just doesn't understand it, but if they reject it, they are worshiping a god that is different than God's revelation in the Bible. The thief on the cross didn't have access to the New Testament.
Heard one apologetic that delved into 4 dimensional viewed in a 3d world. Was struck by it seemingly being a philosophical solution. Depends what the 4th dimension is I suppose
I have never heard such thought and verbal gymnastics. Right from the beginning saying that the word bible is not used in the bible as an example to explain why the word trinity is not in the bible is disingenuous.. The word bible (Byblos) describes what it is and not any of its contents. A Dickens novel is a book even though the word book doesn't appear in its pages. I'm afraid It doesn't get any better after that nonsense.
@@nikkilengyel Part of explaining sounding complex is to answer questions. I didn't realize if I didn't explicitly explain that, some of the readers would think I meant an hour monologue.
Amen, brother! Jesus never seemed to be able to explain this “important” doctrine. He spent a lengthy amount of time, in the sermon on the mount, to teach us how to live, yet he couldn't spend even ten minutes to reveal to teach about the trinity to Jews who never heard of it, even telling a Samaritan that her people don't know what they worship, but that we Jews know what we worship - even though the Jews didn't know anything about a trinity.
Well, if logic and reason is an appropriate tool for discerning truth from error, this argument matters: 1. There is only 1 Most High God. 2. The Father is the Most High God. 3. Jesus is not the Father. 4. Therefore, Jesus is not the Most High God. The argument is valid and sound. Modalists can reject premise 3. But what premise can Trinitarians reject? Contradictions are falsehoods. God doesn't want us believing in falsehoods:) Respectfully, brothers, both Scripture and logic are against this teaching.
Sorry, it may be valid and sound, but it would ONLY be a true argument if #2 said, "ONLY the Father is the Most High God." Since Jesus is referred to as the Yahweh of the Old Testament, worshiped as God, and called, "God", we have to assume He IS the Most High God as well as the Father and the Holy Spirit. Think of your argument, if you were to draw it out, as a large circle titled "The Most High God". Within that circle, you include the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as separate small circles. All three are the Most High God. It's like John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." On the surface, this would mean the Son is NOT the only true God. But this is why the Trinity is the only consistent explanation for all of Scripture, because the Father IS the only true God, but so is the Son and the Holy Spirit. You'd have to be a polytheist to say otherwise.
@@djparsons7363 Sure. I can think of two specifically. 1. John 12:37-41 v. 41 says, "These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him." NKJV So where is John quoting here, when he says Isaiah saw Jesus' glory? It's Isaiah 6, when Isaiah saw Yahweh. You can compare them and read it for yourself. 2. Hebrews 1:10-12, where right before the Father calls the Son, "God", it quotes about Jesus in Psalm 102:25-27, referring to Yahweh once again. Jesus is worshiped by God by his disciples and others without any correction. Jesus is called God by Paul and other disciples. Jesus is referred to as the "Word made flesh", the Word who is God in John 1:1-2. That's just a tiny sample. The Bible cannot be more clear that Jesus is God incarnate, and denying it is denying Jesus.
@@biblicalworldview1 Isaiah spoke of the people not putting faith in Jehovah despite all the signs he performed. John is applying Isaiah's words to the way the people reacted to Jesus and the signs he performed. The glory Isaiah saw was Jehovah's, not Jesus'. Why does Hebrews 1:10-12 quote Psalm 102:25-27 and apply it to the Son, when the psalm says that it is addressed to God? Because the Son is the one THROUGH WHOM God performed the creative works there described by the psalmist. (See Colossians 1:15, 16; Proverbs 8:22, 27-30.) It should be observed in Hebrews 1:5b that a quotation is made from 2 Samuel 7:14 and applied to the Son of God. Although that text had its first application to Solomon, the later application of it to Jesus Christ does not mean that Solomon and Jesus are the same. Jesus is “greater than Solomon” and carries out a work foreshadowed by Solomon.-Luke 11:31. John 1:1 is not an accurate rendering in the KJV, many other Bible translators DO NOT AGREE with the Word being God. Five German Bible translators use the term “a god” in that verse. At least 13 others have used expressions such as “of divine kind” or “godlike kind.” These renderings agree with other parts of the Bible to show that, yes, Jesus in heaven is a god in the sense of being divine. But Jehovah and Jesus are NOT THE SAME BEING, the same God.-John 14:28; 20:17. With the KJV rendering of John 1:1 being opposed by so many other Bible translators you cannot be dogmatic that the KJV is the absolute truth, it is full of inaccuracies.
@@djparsons7363 I don't generally use the KJV, so I'm not sure why you are taking issue with it. The same translation of these verses is found in every modern English translation. Although the KJV is certainly a much better translation than the NWT, because it doesn't add words not found in the Greek to support aberrant theological beliefs. I go by what the Greek says. The Isaiah quote is related to John 12:41 where it says, "Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him" (ESV), regardless of the translation, they ALL say that Isaiah SAW Jesus' glory and spoke of him. Please consider this and don't just dismiss it. I grew up in a religious group that denied the Trinity and taught it as polytheism and a doctrine of demons. I denied the Trinity until I really looked into what the Bible taught about God separated from my prior beliefs. Hebrews 1:10-12 is directly talking about the Son as Creator God Himself and calling him "Yahweh" relating Him to the same Yahweh Psalm 102:25-27 is talking about, because it quotes it verbatim. No good Bible translator adds words to the Greek text to make it say something else. There is one God, not Jehovah God and demigods. I wouldn't compare 13 bad translators to thousands of good ones and say that somehow refutes the good ones. Who are the German translators you speak of? Would you agree that God doesn't share His glory with any other, for He is a jealous God?
Modalism doesn’t explain the biblical data. When Jesus was baptized how could the Father appear as a voice from the heavens and the Holy Spirit appear as a dove? Matthew 3:16-17. Modalism doesn’t account for bilocation.
@@TheContrarian32 Not at all. God the Son, the Memra, is an emanation of God. Where was God when he was on the mercy seat? Was no one running the universe? Surely not. As an emanation of God the Father, the Word and the Spirit of God can appear on earth while God the father remains enthroned in heaven. There are two rules of doping out the Trinity. You can’t split the being or “essences” and you can’t collapse the loci of thought, ie confuse the persons. God can have emanations and those emanations can even have a perspective and thought process and there not be more than one God.
@@ianmartinesq Trinitarians misrepresent the monarchian proposing that we teach a sequential modalism ( That is when he is Father he cannot be Son, and that God must change from one mode to another). THIS is all falsehood. There is even no evidence that the Monarchian teachers of Old ( Sabellius, Praxeaus etc) and the Oneness teachers of Today. DAVID Bernard, STEVEN Ritchie etc teach a sequential modalism. We believe God is Omnipresent, and he can be Father and Son at the same time. JUST as Israel had the presence of God as the pillar of cloud and fire in their camp and the same time as God reigning in his throne in heaven. The Baptism issue is easily settled with an understanding of the omnipresence of God. I challenge any Trinitarian to provide any first source historical quote that the Modalist of yesterday and today teach a sequential modalism.
@@samuellundin5328 can you clearly and distinctly distinguish your position from what you term the Trinitarian position? But I think you mean the Athanasian position. But before I discuss misrepresentations or misunderstandings or whatever, I would first like to be clear on what you say your position is.
Every time I hear someone try to explain the 3 in 1 trinity I get a huge headache. It just absolutely makes zero sense that Jesus speaks to himself in the Bible.
@@wallysmet5076 Well that statement explains your heart. Your reaction speaks volumes. I suggest you learn to follow Jesus Christ and reserve your judgement for Him that has power to judge.
The Trinity was one of the foretold twisted doctrines that the apostates would bring in. A twisted doctrine can never be comprehended with logical minds. (Acts 20:30) and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves. When the apostate Roman Church brought this teaching in, all members had to believe it. It any dared to question it or even check a Bible (none available), a bonfire awaited such one. Now we have Bibles to check. Thence come in the excuses. They are one God but different persons and such. Make absolutely no sense either way.
And this is why I'm an atheist, I hate intellectual dishonesty and the mental gymnastics it takes to create pseudo intelectual apologetics for religious claims.
The concept of trinity cannot make you an atheist. You are an atheist if you believe there is no God regardless of the eschatology. And if we will be intellectually honest, you know that is correct. God bless
28:28 Dr. Sanders says, "If Trinity isn't from Scripture, we don't want it." Roman Catholic "Hypostatic Union" trinity is not in the Scripture. The "Prosopic Union" trinity of Theodoret is in the New Testament. Please search "Counter-statements to Cyril's 12 Anathemas".
24:48 - Huge problem, he is confusing the idea that "person" is a property of "being", which logically means that while "God" possesses those "divine attributes", yet NONE of the "persons" can possess those attributes.
@@raygsbrelcik5578God is one God Humans try to put God into our realm and use human concepts to attribute Him with such as unitarianism. If God is superior in all ways, then multi-personal is the way to go
Especially one as important as the nature of God! He has waay too many clear concise scriptures talking about Himself in the Hebrew bible to fail to mention this one important part.
It’s not only the word “Trinity” which is not in Scripture. The concept that God is three persons in one being is completely absent from Scripture. In order to come up with the Trinity, you have to take a verse from here and a verse from there and put them together to make a theory. The problem is that no New Testament writer ever talked about this idea. There are only verses that seem to hint at it. That is not nearly enough to consider something a Scriptural doctrine, much less central to biblical faith! Just stick with biblical terms and you won’t end up with man’s teaching. Remember, Jesus told Peter that it was not flesh and blood that revealed who he is, but the Father in heaven. And what did the Father reveal? That Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God (see Matthew 16).
I agree with the analogies being imperfect, but I think the 3 in 1 apple book I had as a child really helped me conceptualize God, so they have their place, I think.
ONE GOD FATHER have his word - he create everything with his word and since he is almighty his word can become anything so it can become flesh - Son living word of God-I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God and God have his holy Spirit
At 29 minutes the guest says that all church fathers say that the trinity is straight from the Bible. Is this really the case? "When one does speak of unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say the last quadrant of the 4th century ... Herein lies the difficulty. On the one hand, it was the dogmatic formula "one God in Three Persons" that would henceforth for more than 15 centuries structure and guide the Trinitarian essence of the Christian message ... On the other hand, the formula itself does not reflect the immediate consciousness of the period of origins; it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development." - New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p.295 "The trinity of God is defined by the church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief. The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneously applied to God by some theologians." - Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, 1965 p. 899. "This does not mean however, that we consider the traditional Scripture proof text method as mandatory or even possible. In the sense of definition the doctrive of Trinity is stated nowhere in Scripture." - The Encyclopedia of the Lutheran Church, 1965, vol. III, p. 2414
What a gross twisting of quotes. All these say is the obvious, that the word and definition of trinity are not explicitly stated in scripture. What the guest said is that all the fathers used scripture to support the trinity, and that the trinity IS foundationally based in scripture. This is most certainly true. How dare you have the arrogance to think the God would let his church commit complete and total blasphemy for 2000 years.
Trinity seems to be trending and continues to confuse: so here’s an analogy by way of explanation. Water is H20. Ice is H20. Steam is H20. None of these have the same form but all share the same compound. Father, Son & Holy Ghost. None share the same form but all are God.
Can the same molecule of water be in THREE DIFFERENT PLACES at the same time ??! Oh, so you want to use Physics when convenient and ignore Physics when convenient. LOL
More mental gymnastics from Christians, The trinity doctrine was concocted by the church fathers just think which of the previous prophets worshipped a triune God answer - NONE
What about Isaiah? “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6 ESV This verse at least reveals that Isaiah prophesied that “Mighty God” would be a child given.
Sean, a great conversation. I wish you brought up Triunity Vs Trinity. That seems to be a term thrown around in Christian circles and I believe it's a different understanding of scripture.
I say Trinity as Holy Trinity, where there are two divine and one human, but all holy. I guess a divine Trinity would be Triunity, meaning one nature, not one purpose alone.
@@jeffdowns1038 It was admitted that the OT, that the Jews lived by, did not express a Holy Trinity. The OT did however say a man would be raised from his people under the law as the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18, this man was not expected to be God, and only had the presence of God in him by baptism. I was baptised CofE but the NT never taught me Jesus could ever do miracles with the Spirit of God in him, he impersonated his Father.
@@simonskinner1450 Friend, what you say is interesting and I disagree. But, you have changed the subject. You said, I wish you brought up Triunity Vs Trinity. That seems to be a term thrown around in Christian circles and I believe it's a different understanding of scripture. I'm asking, what theologians have you read that make the distinction you think is there. I'm saying the words are used, in Christians circles, interchangeably.
I will admit before I comment that I did not listen to this whole video. The reason is I picked up pretty quickly that this was more of a philosophical conversation than a scriptural conversation which I was disappointed in. I am apostolic. So we are oneness believers. We believe that Jesus was God, fully revealed to man kind. Fully God and Fully man. I like to say STRICT monotheism. All that to say I have a few questions I would like to offer up about the trinity that I have yet to have answered from scripture. First- Which of these persons of the God head is the Father that Jesus refers to when He speaks and prays? Because Like 1:35 and Matthew 1:18 say the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. So is the Holy Spirit the Father? My next question: What does Jesus mean when He says in John 10:30 when he said "I and my Father are one" I've heard people say it's like how a husband and wife are one. As in one in Unity. But that wouldn't make since taking into account John 14:8-11. Philip asks to see the Father and Jesus says'If you've seen me you've seen the father". So unless if I've seen you I've seen your wife also. And finally- Colossians 2:8-10. How can the fullness of the Godhead (AKA the essence of who God is) dwell in Jesus Christ? Wouldn't it just be part of the God head? I ask these in the hopes that they would make you think and consider looking more into Apostolic Oneness theology. We believe that the Holy God Yahweh of the Old Testament exists as only ONE spirit. And that ONE spirit was robed in flesh- fully God and Fully Man as Jesus Christ.
Hi, Mikaela. I would like to answer your questions with respect. If I misunderstand a question, please feel free to correct or clarify. First, can we agree that God is not like human beings and there are aspects to God that, while not contradictory, can exceed our capabilities of fully understanding? God is the Creator and not the Creation. If we can start with the fact that God cannot contain logical contradictions (like a square circle), but still will have aspects to Him that we can't understand, we're in a good, humble place and escape the danger of putting God in a box that our minds can contain. I think we will also agree that the Bible is God's revelation of Himself to us and is our ultimate guide for who He is. Also, I am gratified to know that you do not deny the deity of Christ! I was once a modalist 1) Q: Which of these persons of the God head is the Father that Jesus refers to when He speaks and prays? Because Luke 1:35 and Matthew 1:18 say the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. So is the Holy Spirit the Father? A: Jesus prays to the Father. I think you take a modalist perspective, that God is one in being and one in person. Is that correct? So He changes forms or reveals/manifests Himself as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Luke 1:35 says, "And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God." This verse seems to actually emphasize the different 'persons' of the Trinity. Otherwise Jesus' spirit would be overshadowing Himself? 2) Q: What does Jesus mean when He says in John 10:30 when he said "I and my Father are one" A: The Trinity teaches that there is only one God, and so the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the one, true God. Human analogies don't work with God all the time, because human beings are one in being and one in person, unlike God. God isn't like us. We are like Him in some respects (made in His image). For John 14:8-11, you have to read the whole passage where Jesus explains what he means by "You have seen the Father", because Jesus and the Father are the one, true God, so when you have seen one, you have seen the other. This isn't saying they are the same person, but as Jesus says, "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." 3) Q: Colossians 2:8-10. How can the fullness of the Godhead (AKA the essence of who God is) dwell in Jesus Christ? Wouldn't it just be part of the God head? A: I mean this respectfully, but I don't think you understand the Trinity doctrine well enough. God is not divided, like a triangle or an egg, into parts. God is like nothing else in all Creation. He alone is God. There is ONE being, God, who cannot be divided into parts. Oneness cannot account for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simultaneously existing and personally relating to one another. -Kris
@@biblicalworldview1 So you believe the Spirit in Jesus is not the Holy Spirit? Do you not believe you have received the Spirit of the Son? Because the scriptures say that. Or the Spirit of Christ? The scriptures also say you should have received that? So how many spirits does one receive when they get saved if the Holy Spirit is not the Spirit of the Son or Christ? You must believe God was manifest in the flesh, would not every Jew understand that as the Eternal only God the Father in the flesh? And not the eternal only second person son spirit coming in the flesh? When Jesus says if you see him you see the Father, isn't he clarifying that it is indeed the Father who is in the flesh? Are you not adding to the scriptures? You quoted the part the Lord says I am in the Father and the Father is in me, but can you honestly say you understand the meaning in terms of the trinity? The Lord in context was speaking about who he really is and he was saying that his true identity is God who dwells in him as the Father or Spirit and his body which is outside is the Father's body. The Lord sees his Body as himself not only his Spirit being him, this is why he says things like eat my flesh and drink my blood, because his Body is God who is Spirit made flesh. You see how it all comes together? I don't believe in the Pope's doctrine of the trinity. Whosever confesses Jesus is the Son of God is saved, if the Son of God is a second person the Pope is also saved. But if the Son of God is the Father in the flesh, perhaps not? May God judge, or should I say the Lord Jesus Christ the Almighty.
@@biblicalworldview1 Hi Friend. I actually wonder if you understand the trinity. Yes we are starting in the same place with your first two assumptions though I wouldnt call myself a modelist. I think we also would both agree that what we are trying to do is understand an infinate God with our finate minds. And so I must say I don't think I made this clear. Modelist works but I don't think it quite allows for the full understanding of my faith which is why I prefer to use strict numerical oneness beliver. The Orthodox trinitarian view is God in three persons- so God the Father God the Son God the Holy Ghost BUT the Father is not the son is not the Holy Ghost is not the Father. you may see the triangle with the Titles of the Godhead in the corners. That is my understanding of the Trinity and that is what I am arguing against. I am specifically pointing at the "Is nots" in my questions. So if the Father IS NOT the Holy Ghost then why was it the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit who overshadowed Mary. Would that not make the Father and the Holy Ghost the same 'person'. And if Jesus is not the Father then why would He say 'If you've seen me you've seen the Father'. If they are only one in Unity then my question would be "If youve seen me have you seen my husband?' because we are one in Unity. I look at scripture starting in Genesis and through the Jewish lense of the Old Testament recognizing that God made it so clear that He is only one and so unwilling to compromise what Jesus Himself said is the greatest commandment I cannot divide God into 'persons' for the sake of my own understanding. God is the Father. God is the Son. God is the Holy Ghost. God is the Great I Am. God is the Cloud by Day and the Fire By night. God is the alpha. God is the omega. God is the Rose of Sharon. God is the prince of Peace. And Jesus was That God Manifested in the flesh. The Fullness of The Godhead. The fullness and complete essence of God was born as a man, lived as a man and died as a Lamb and complete sacrifice for the sins of this world. I think the language in the bible is confusing because we are all finate humans trying to articulate a infinate God but this is the best that I can articulate it in a UA-cam comment! Haha!
To answer your question, John 10:30 is easily explained with another Scripture (John 10:30) I and the Father are one.” (John 17:20-22) “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, SO THAT THEY MAY ALL BE ONE, JUST AS YOU, FATHER, ARE IN UNION WITH ME AND I AM IN UNION WITH YOU, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE IN UNION WITH US, so that the world may believe that you sent me. I have given them the glory that you have given me, IN ORDER THAT THEY MAY BE ONE JUST AS WE ARE ONE. BEING ONE MEANS BEING IN AGREEMENT, UNITED IN A COMMON PURPOSE. (John 14:9) Whoever has seen me has seen the Father also. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Jesus reflected his Father's personality so perfectly it was AS IF seeing Jesus would be like seeing the Father. Jesus came to earth as the exact equal of Adam before he sinned, a perfect man, 100% human but sinless. He was not a God-man, that would not have been a proper redeeming sacrifice, he had to be Adam's equal.
Lol. Both of you struggled to explain explicitly what the doctrine is, because you know you will run into contradiction doing it explicitly, but you believe that one needs to believe that to be saved?? Lol
So sad. Did you even listen to the post!! So so sad. So so so much you need to learn about being a disciple of wisdom as the Bereans were. Humility is the key to understanding.
@@paulenzor6993 So since I'm right and you can't say anything against that you just say so so sad since it doesn't agree with your brainwashing. How pathetic! I assume you also worship Paul using Jesus' name in vain.
John 8:58 Jesus calls himself the I AM and the Jewish crowd picks up stones to stone him, doing exactly what the OT commands them to do to someone who claims to be God. That crowd knew EXACTLY what he was saying, and they'd disagree with your statement.
Simply not true. The eyewitness testimony presented in the gospels is clear about that. Jesus made clear claims that he is the God of Israel, and his followers understood this, and his enemies understood this.
It seems the best way to answer “does someone need to believe in the Trinity to be saved”, is in it’s salvivic context. Jesus says “ whoever does not honor. The son does not honor the father who sent him.“ or what Paul gets to in 2 Corinthians 5, “All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ…” christ is not acting independently apart from the father, nor is the father acting independently of the son. So what about the spirit“ Paul says, in first Corinthians,“ no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the spirit.“ So, can someone be saved apart from the doctrine of the trinity “no”, but, can someone be saved without a full understanding of how the trinity functions, and operates to its exact specifications as creator/preserver, justifier, and sanctifier, yes.
Amen! Jesus I’m crying out to you. Please hear my cries. I’m struggling with my faith. I knew when I found Jesus my life wouldn’t be easy because I would have to give up on my sinful life style and follow him. I’m a single mother struggling to make ends meet. Since covid I have been struggling to get back on my feet. I lost my job for declining the vaccine. I declined due to my pre existing health conditions, lupus and heart disease so now I’m having a hard time providing for my children. Both of my sons are special needs. I’m overwhelmed I started homeschooling them due to bullying. I’m waitressing and I’m happy to be back working but I’m not making nearly enough to get by. I have nowhere to turn no family nor friends. No hope. I have been put down and mocked, over my situation. Prayers are all I want. I’m so ashamed and so embarrassed so please be kind. Every month I struggle with my children I’m barely making it. But I still keep faith. Praise Jesus. Please hear my prayers. I have faith God will continue to provide.
I’ll pray for you, sister.
Both those preexisting conditions put you at much greater risk for COVID complications. I’m not a Dr., but I’d be extremely surprised if your Dr. Didn’t highly recommend you get the shot. I’m sorry for your situation. I hope things turn around
Child of God, keep loving Jesus. Darkness to light is His business. Stand in his kingdom righteousness, and you will be provided with what you need. Keep on asking. Persistence. Patience in your tears. God loves the diligent mother. Don't give up.
Jesus doesn't keep us from the furnace or the lion's den, we have to walk in with boldness and he will be by our side. God could have arranged the circumstances to avoid the furnace and the den, but how much more glorious that the fire didn't burn them and the starving lions sat there chill? I'm sure that was scary, but always keep your eyes on Christ and not the storm. A crazy storm is brewing, but fear not!
Prayers your way…God has promised He will never leave u nor forsake u. hope u can find more external support as well so that u can become stronger
The Trinity had never been a problem for me since I did physics at school. There are plenty of weird things that scientists accept as true that don’t seem to make much sense at first. Quantum mechanics and wave-particle duality come to mind. If they can accept those things that are difficult to explain, then I can accept the Trinity.
Why should I, a finite mortal, be able to easily understand the nature of the infinite immortal?
Exactly.
Great point and question!
This is the perfect God of the Gaps reasoning and will get the most upvotes. Guaranteed.
LOLZ
Terrible point and question! Scientists accept odd seeming results when they are testable and repeatable DESPITE our preconceptions.
You are preconceiving a result DESPITE no evidence to back your claims. Sad
That's how I feel as well. If it's true there should be things I don't really understand.
You’re upping your thumbnail game, man! I love it!
Thanks for the providing this interview. Good stuff.
“My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the lord. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.
“The rain and snow come down from the heavens and stay on the ground to water the earth. They cause the grain to grow, producing seed for the farmer and bread for the hungry.
It is the same with my word. I send it out, and it always produces fruit. It will accomplish all I want it to, and it will prosper everywhere I send it.
Isaiah 55:8-11 NLT
Yes, well, the Doctrine of the Trinity is all men's thoughts.
Definitely long over due. Thanks Sean. I appreciate your ministry.
Glad you enjoyed!
@@SeanMcDowell You're a good man, Sean....but you have, like
Many others, fallen for this Late 2nd--Early 3rd Centuries, Post Apostolic,
Roman Catholic, pagan doctrine.
There IS but ONE Literal, Almighty GOD----Therefore, there IS but ONE,
Almighty Eternal, Omniscient....HOLY SPIRIT!
Jesus is NOT a, "SPIRIT."
GOD the FATHER IS!
With respect.
@@SeanMcDowellI had asked and haven't seen a response maybe this doesn't go to an auto response to let me know that you have replied but who was God in John 1:1
The dimly lit room is the trinitarian room.
That are not in the Bible to support the word Trinity which is not in the Bible. The Trinity is the Triad of old paganism with terms from the Bible. The Trinity is a denial of Jesus is the Lord God Almighty alone and by himself as father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. The original Orthodox Faith was modalist menarchism.
Royal Fred Sanders sounds like a liberal with his progressive revelation he doesn't believe that God gave the Jews the truth he only gave him a dimly lit room so they could barely see that God was truly 1.
For there is *one God and one mediator between God* and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God. John 1:1
@@bruhmingo If God is a trinity then Jesus must be triune.
"And the Word was God"
@@TheCaledonianBoyNot necessarily, many times the Bible uses the word God but we know that he was addressing the Father. The best way to put is, because God is trinity then the word God can be used for any persons of the Trinity.
@@ruelf6231 Is there a passage in the Bible where the triune God speaks?
Or when "God" is mentioned it is referring to the 3 person God?
@@TheCaledonianBoy well Genesis 1:27 is an example of that plurality. But the basis of the Trinity is how God revealed Himself in the Bible.
Who coined the word trinitas or trinity and who formulated the doctrine of the trinity?
some other pagan. does it really matter? god committed suicide to himself to save us from himself so we don't have to do anything!
@SmallFridgeMinority The irony of you calling my wording "perverted" when this is literally the mainstream Christian doctrine.
You'll need another 20 years before we can actually have a meaningful discussion about this and in all cases, in no way is Christianity or the bible endorsable by a thinking human-being.
Jesus/God needs to die to save us from himself/themselves? So, no actually a God of mercy but a literal transaction and payment for the fact that God made us moral creatures and Adam made his first mistake? You don't realize that this is pure Pagan idolatry, human sacrifice and vicarious atonement (all Pagan ideologies).
Islam is the truth and this is clearly falsehood. Even the name Jesus is false. The name Christian is false (since they're actually Paulians) and the names stamped to the gospels are also all false. This is so obvious for people that aren't going to hell.
Thanks for this. Excellent discussion.
I absolutely love this conversation. Trying to wrap my brain around this is difficult. I just believe it. But trying to explain it is the reason I try to find conversations like this. It is surprising to me how many people do not believe in the Holy Spirit.
Believing something without knowing what! Isn't this called a blind faith?
Jesus knew the God whom he worshiped. He told the Samaritan woman:
(John 4:22) You worship what you do not know; WE WORSHIP WHAT WE KNOW, because salvation begins with the Jews.
One of the primary reasons why this is confusing for humans is because we are one being (human) with one personhood (Sean, Fred, etc.). God is not like us in this regard, in that He is one being with three personhoods. Thus, we struggle to understand this, which is both logical and reasonable since this relates to God; divinity cannot be dissected and fully understood by a creature.
Where is God ever described as triune or three in one?
@@cc3775 Listen to the video.
@@Mairiain I don’t need to. The same old nonsense I was told for 30 plus years. I’m asking where in scripture?
@@cc3775 The video tells you where in the Bible.
@@Mairiain not possible because it’s nonexistent. God is described as one and uses personal pronouns.
I’m agnostic on this doctrine because I’m careful to follow 1 Corinthians 4:6, where we are specifically told not to go “beyond what is written”. I believe this doctrine has done that and thus has essentially violated what Paul said.
I also think it has the potential to be a thing that empties the Cross of its power as Paul speaks about in 1 Corinthians 1:17 and the beginning of Chapter 2. I think on this issue, we should also be Proverbs 3:5 thinkers and be extremely gracious about it and extra careful.
Just stick with what the scriptures say, and use that language. Don’t invent other doctrines or phrases that may empty the cross of its power and might even lay a stumbling block in the way of someone, which is another thing Paul stresses not to do!
For these matters, I follow all of these guidelines from the Scriptures:
Learn by us not to go beyond what is written, rightly handling the word of truth, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Do not teach any different doctrine.
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit. I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments.
Avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law or about words, for they are unprofitable and worthless, leading some to wander away into vain discussion, which promotes speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.
Insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works.
Be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
Hi, Greg. I am just curious to know in which aspect you believe the doctrine of the Trinity goes beyond Scripture.
1) There is one God
2) The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God
3) The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are not each other
That summarizes what the Bible teaches on the nature of God, so to not believe it would be to reject one of these three things.
Thanks!
@@biblicalworldview1 - I’m agnostic on the general idea of the Trinity, in that God is one substance, composed of 3 persons. I also wonder if it really even matters, since from my perspective most of it is a philosophical exercise which, at the end of the day, doesn’t lead to producing good works but instead has ventured into speculation.
But my biggest concern is that the church has done all of that and then placed a “you must believe this or you don’t have the correct Jesus” stamp on it. That is scary imo since it flirts with introducing infallible division by the means of a fallible interpretation by men who aren’t apostles and who didn’t write any scripture. I think the church has done this to such a degree that many of us can barely see straight and our faith rests in the wisdom of men rather than on the word of God.
@@babylonsfall7 I appreciate that, but when you reject the Trinity, you are saying either there is 1) NOT only one God, 2) The Father IS the Son or the Holy Spirit, or 3) Jesus is not God or the Holy Spirit is not God.
A true believer would believe God as He is. It's not the same as having the rapture wrong or when the millenium is. If you'd read a short book, I highly recommend "The Forgotten Trinity" by James White.
I understand being humble and agreeing that we cannot know everything about God, because He is God and we are not. But we surely ought to believe what He says about Himself in the Bible.
@@biblicalworldview1 - agnostic means something different than “reject”. However I do think that the church has swerved away from the truth due to human argumentation on issues like this. And have thus, emptied the Cross of its transforming power like Paul warned in 1 Cor 1:17 would happen if you added to the gospel or went beyond what is written.
For example, I agree that Jesus is God but God just means “elohim”. As in Psalms 82 that Jesus quoted “you are gods”. But he also didn’t posses all knowledge, lacking where the Father wasn’t lacking. Also there can only be one “Most High” Elohim. If there are 3 person who share “Most High Status” and you addresses any of them singly, they would not be the “Most High”.
Lastly, I can not make sense of a passage like this on the general Trinity rubric:
“Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.”
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 ESV
There are clearly two “entities” referenced here and only one of them is ruling over the kingdom at a time.
And I think the issue here is that “God” can just mean “elohim” or spiritual being, and yet is universally translated as if it’s referring to the “Most High” father elohim.
So for example in John when it says “was with God and was God.” If God means “Elohim” or spiritual being, then it makes sense in a way that is not saying what the usual Trinity definition is saying, which is that God here means “the Most High Elohim”, a title of the Father alone.
Does this make sense?
@@biblicalworldview1 - anyways here is my current view on all of this, based on what I see in scripture:
Father = Most High Elohim
Son = Image of Most High Elohim, firstborn of the Father. Himself is Elohim, but not the Most High. Became->Jesus = permanent fusion of man and the pre-extant Son, truly man, but also truly Elohim, raised to power by the Most High Father to a status above all other created things, in charge of the Kingdom currently, but will one day hand it back over to the Most High Elohim, his Father.
Holy Spirit = emanates from the Most High Father. Himself is Elohim, but not the Most High. Indwells Jesus and believers in him, granting them divine gifts.
Who decides what concepts are accepted if the words are not written
Typically Church Councils, like the council in Jerusalem reported in Acts.
It is perhaps hard for us moderns to understand in an age where everything is written down, but bear in mind that the Epistles were written before any of the Gospels had been committed to vellum.
At the time Paul was writing he'd committed the teachings of Christ to memory. Similarly, the Didache seems to have been written at least before copies of the Gospels were widespread.
Prior to that teachings of Christ were transmitted verbally by the disciples and their disciples, and even where they were written down they still required exposition to avoid the spread of misunderstanding and heresy, especially when preaching to gentiles who spoke a myriad of languages.
To give you an idea of how quickly it spread, Jesus died c. AD 33, by AD there were churches in Syria, what's now Turkey, Macedonia, Rome, Ethiopia and Egypt, and by the end of the century there were churches in Spain, Gaul and perhaps even India.
In a time when reproducing a single Gospel would take perhaps a week of copying if you had the resources much of the early spread must have been verbal.
And don't under estimate their facilities of recall - Jesus could recite one line and his audience were expected to recognise the psalm/OT verse and understand all the cultural context that went with it.
There are also writings from the Dead Sea scrolls at Qumran which seem to show that trinitarian thought was already present in Judea before the Birth of Christ.
Just remember, the Early Church Fathers were much closer to Jesus and the Disciples than we are, and some of them knew disciples personally. Trust them before you trust anyone tainted by the enlightenment.
God Bless
Great stuff brothers, stay encouraged!
3 dimensional beings… trying to describe our triune, loving God, who created time, space and all matter.
What an amazing thing that He stepped into His creation, to reveal Himself to us, and pay the price that we may come to know and love Him back
Thanks so much for this. Have always had a nagging longing to better understand the Trinity. This has helped greatly, although my head is still spinning a bit. BUT…I do feel spurred on to pray for understanding and research deeper. Thanks again.
Yes, please research deeper. Best wishes to you.
Thank you Sean McDowell, timely, relevant topic. Another great guest.
God is unique!
AKA: Holy! Set apart, like nothing else. That's why God is a challenge for us to understand because God is literally incomparable. Shalom!
the trinity is of the antichrist it denies that Jesus came only in the flesh
This is a really good explanation. I am trying to help my Tagalog speaking oneness Pentecostal friend to understand the trininty and it's been challenging.
Just stick with what the Scriptures say and don’t worry about these doctrines that are not in there. No one found it necessary to explain the “Trinity” in the first century, so there’s no reason we should need to do so today.
As for Oneness, that easy to refute using clear and explicit Scriptural passages.
It’s challenging because it’s incoherent nonsense.
Oneness need to face the fact that Oneness makes Jesus a "fake son" not a real son... and when you get down to it, Oneness denies the deity of Christ, surprisingly.
With Oneness, the relationship between the Father and the Son becomes a charade, because they believe the Father is the same person as the Son. So, there's no actual love relationship between persons.
When they do make a distinction between the Father and the Son, they make the Son into a man only, which denies His deity.
So, the main issue with Oneness is, they do not have both the Father and the Son. The love relationship between the Father and the Son is Eternal Life. To have Eternal Life you must be in the Son of the Father.
@@ro6ti Jesus isn’t a deity
@@cc3775 So cool when you meet someone who is smarter than 2000 years of church history
min 44..."its crucial to get it right" - soooo you noticed, side stepped...and posed to "organizations" being harder on it...which one is it? Yes or no for trinity req. and salvation?
They didn’t side step it in the slightest. You’re just unable to approach the subject with nuance.
Well I think he didn’t quite answer it either. I was envisioning a person who put their faith in Jesus as the son of God and Savior but didn’t really understand it very well yet. And maybe they didn’t understand the Holy Spirit at all yet. But they genuinely put their trust in Jesus as their savior. Then they would receive the Holy Spirit but not yet understand what that even was. That person could be saved I think. Then later they could come to understand better. But they could still be converted: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.”
Right? Children, for example, don’t understand very much yet-certainly not the Trinity. But they can see their need for a Savior and understand that they have to put their trust in Him.
While hearing what was said about analogies, I need one. As a technologist, this is mine. Picture an AI. The same AI can be the "mind" of and animate multiple robots at the same time; each robot can be performing different activities. Interact with any individual robot (maybe one is red, a second is green and a third is blue) and you are still really interacting with the same, single back-end AI. The "what" is the AI; the "who" is the red robot, the green robot, the blue robot.
@First_Chapter the true Biblical understanding is that the Spirit is the breath/mind/power/presence of God. God is a spirit. He is breath and life. Jesus is the begotten Son of God. He was also spirit or breath. But Jesus then became the Son of Man, becoming human to manifest the character of God. He is His express or graven image. That is why we are not t9 make graven images. Because Jesus and humans are the ones He created. And Jesus is the only image of God we need. Because we corrupt any image we make and rely on our own works instead.
Jesus then had to return to His Father to be glorified and so He could be made into a life giving Spirit again. As an unglorified human he couldn't be the parakletos.
The Spirit of Christ is actually the Father sharing His spirit through the spirit of His Son. The spirit is the power and presence of both. When Christ knocks on the door of the church of laodicea, He is trying to tell the CHURCH to let Him in. They have the wrong spirit. HE is the Spirit, not some 3rd person of a God that doesn't exist.
@@oftheborg Thank you. Need do some digesting here!
The universe is made in God's image: time, space and matter. But it's not a perfect analogy because the only perfection is God
@@First_Chapter and made a mistake. Jesus was not created. Sorry
@@sigurdholbarki8268 huh? Where do you get that?
No mention of the Johannine comma?
It is irrelevant. It is not proof of a trinity.
Trinity in one verse,
Isaiah 48:16 NKJV - “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”
Not a trinity, God's Holy Spirit is His powerful force that he uses to accomplish his will, it is NOT a person.
@@djparsons7363 Why did the Lord GOD and His Spirit do something? Why is 'have' plural, instead of 'the Lord God has' (singular)? Please explain why this verse doesn't rightly read, 'And now the Lord GOD has sent Me'? After all, God is not divided - God is One.
@@Mic1904 That is just a matter of the translators choosing that rendering because it supports the idea of a trinity that has always been the agenda of a King James Bible. My NWT has no such bias, thus the rendering is clear.
(Isaiah 48:16) Come near to me, and hear this. From the very start I have not spoken in secret. From the time it happened I was there.” And now the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has sent me, and his spirit.
@@djparsons7363 Jesus, however, is not, JEHOVAH. Jesus's Hebraic
name is-----YESHUA, which differs from YHWH, ELOHIM, ADONAI, and,
EL SHADDAI, which are the Names of GOD the FATHER.
AND;
HOLY SPIRIT, is not some Mysterious "FORCE," like some people
Assert. GOD the FATHER is that One and Only HOLY SPIRIT.
If GOD the FATHER ISN'T the HOLY SPIRIT....Then just what IS HE?
With all respect.
@@raygsbrelcik5578 I have never said that Jesus is Jehovah because I know he isn't, Jehovah is almighty God, Jesus is his Son, the very first creation by the Father.
I disagree about the Holy Spirit, it is not a person, It is a powerful force that Jehovah controls and uses in many different ways to accomplish his will. HE isn't Holy Spirit, it is a tool, so to speak, that he uses.
Jehovah never leaves his Heavenly dwelling place, he projects his Holy Spirit to do many things, from parting the Red Sea, enabling Jesus to heal sicknesses and raise the dead, destroying Sodom and Gomorrah etc.
For those who think the Holy Spirit is a living person, if that were so "he" would have a name, any prominent figure in Scripture has a name but not Holy Spirit because it isn't a person.
I have never read the bible through. I am really trying not to be mislead like I have been so many times. I don't like being put into a label or box. I just know I am a child of God. In your opinion, would it be better to read with prayer for clarity by myself or just pick a church to go to because they are a church and are the house of God and they know how to teach me? I hope this makes sense.
Hei, just begin by the gospels (the new testament). Then you can move to other parts. And when you have a relationship with the Creator, you can look for a church rear your house. I will be praying that the Holy Spirit Guide you along the way.
Start with genesis and keep going until you realize it's just mythological nonsense that primitive humans invented. I bet you don't make it to Numbers, the fifth book.
@@paulallen7962 You are wrong, but don't take OUR word for it: you will find out for yourself soon enough!!
@justin10292000 I know you believe that Justin. Th same way 3 billion Muslims and Hindus on the planet today are convinced that their indoctrinated beliefs are true. You have been brainwashed, the same as them. Yahweh never existed. He was a human invention, the same as thousands of other gods humans invented to try and explain our existence.
@justin10292000 Yahweh was originally a second tier diety in the Canaanite pantheon from which Judaism evolved. The most high god was El. The Hebrew patriarchs worshipped El. Yahweh wasn't invented until the time of Moses.
Exodus 6 2-3 NOG
2 Elohim spoke to Moses, “I am Yahweh. 3 I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as El Shadday, but I didn’t make myself known to them by my name, Yahweh.
According to the myth, El and the goddess Asherah had many children. The sons of God (second tier dieties). Each son was given a nation to rule over. Chemosh-Moab, Baal- Canaan Milcom-Ammon, Qaus-Edom, Yahweh-Israel etc.
Deuteronomy 32 8-9 ESV
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.[b]
9 But the Lord's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.
Editors later changed sons of God to angels of God to hide the polytheism but the oldest manuscript found at the dead sea scrolls says sons of God. I hope this helps.
Amazing...at 57:50...."praying to the Holy Spirit is not unbiblical but there are no examples in scripture for it." WOW...to me it sounds as if it is unbiblical if it is not in the scriptures.
He said it’s “not unbiblical in the deeper sense”, meaning it is not contrary to scripture or against the teachings of scripture, meaning there is freedom to do so. You need to learn what unbiblical means, how to listen carefully, and how to be charitable.
Our Lord used analogies. Here's one of mine:
"Coming Closer to the Wind,
Coming closer every day.
He will bring us to the Father
By the True and Living Way."
That’s not an analogy
I think C.S. Lewis did great work in trying to explain the unexplainable - that God is an extra-dimensional being.
His is not part of our universe and is not subject to its limitations. Things work differently in that dimension (he IS the dimension, in a sense.)
Lewis described the difference between a first-dimensional line, a 2nd-dimensional square, and a 3rd-dimensional cube - the line from the first dimension is also in the second dimension, but it works and relates differently and creates a new and different thing, which is ONE square. The ONE square from the second dimension also exists in the third dimension but combines and functions differently to create ONE cube.
In our dimension of time and space one person/being can have multiple roles or modes, as described in the video - but generally, they can only do or be one thing at a TIME.
Yahweh exists as a single being that manifests as 3 persons that can function in the 3 roles independently and simultaneously without ever a splitting or having a separation of essence, which is apparently fully possible outside of our dimension.
In the end though, illustrations do always fall short, but that does not make them less true - I scientist can write out a formulaic equation on a board that is a true and accurate analysis of how gravity works, but the equation on the board, though true, is not ACTUALLY gravity.
Thx..that's good
Genesis 1:26 Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness” If the Creator is “triune", that is 3 persons (or “minds”) in one God (as practically all of Christendom teaches), should we not see a reflection of this in His human creation? Well, from as far as we can tell, people, who are made in His image seem to be clearly defined as individuals, singles with a clear separation of distinctive individual bodies with one single unique mind and one single unique personality.
Humans do have a triune nature. Our bodies, our minds and our soul.
No, “practically all of Christendom” does **not** teach “three minds”!
This is a serious area of confusion throughout trinitarian Christendom.
Those who identify as “classical/historical” trinitarians teach that the Trinity only has one will, one mind.
To teach three wills, three minds within the Godhead risks teaching tri-theism, in their view.
When saying “person”, classical/historical trinitarians are careful to not use human-person analogies.
Since three distinct human persons have three distinct minds, that is not analogous to the persons of the Godhead in the “historical/classical” view.
Whenever they say “person”, they insist that terms like “subsistence” is more what they mean. (As to how you define “subsistence”, I have no clue.)
Well said, I completely agree with you.
Genesis 1:26 in my opinion is most likely a reference to God speaking to the angels in the Divine Assembly - and right after he says for I have made man in my image- Male and Female HE created them. God is announcing the task that He is about to do to the Angels. It is called a cohortative clause and he is speaking to a group of people. If you read the trinity in that verse you have specifically the "us" making man but you have singular in all the other creative acts. It doesnt make sense to hold that view in my opinion and you would have the Father telling the Son and Holy Spirit that we are to be made in the Image of the Father- it doesnt make sense. However like Dr. Sanders said, most of our reasons for believing in the Trinity come from the NT and we should stick to fundamental texts like Matthew 11 and other NT texts, and then see the Adumbrations of the Trinity in the OT
@@marksbeats3053 I concede that part of what you say seems reasonable, and I sympathize with sticking to the New Testament texts while being cautious with our reading of the First Testament.
That said, there’s a problem with the divine council view in Genesis.
We see “us” in Genesis 11:7 as well, but then Genesis 11:8 clarifies that it’s the Lord God who goes down - with no divine council to be seen.
As a theologian you may want to consider .
1. Neither does the Flat Earth with an upturned edge under a Firmament contradict scriptures (which I believe)
2. Scriptures are designed for children to understand
3. Scriptures are self-explanatory if you need to explain them to someone then you're overthinking them.
Exactly. The problem is Trinitarians fell in love philosophy and that killed their common sense, e.g. sons are not the same age as their fathers. 😂
Flat earth may not contradict scripture, but it contradicts science. Not all children can understand all scripture. People come from different backgrounds and educational levels. Some concepts may be harder for some to understand, and need more explanation.
@@unletteredandordinaryEarthly sons aren’t the same age as their fathers. An eternal son would be the same age as an eternal father.
@@lisanlovesName one culture that doesn’t understand the relationship between a father and his son? Will any one of them conclude that they are the same human “being”? No. It’s ridiculous. Therefore, the Trinity is likewise equally absurd.
@@lisanlovesThere is no such thing as an “eternal son.” This is just Trinitarian wishful thinking read into the text. All the language used to describe Christ is temporal, e.g. “son”, “firstborn”, “begotten”, “beginning”, “creation”, “created”, “origin”, “became”, “representation”, “image”, etc. There’s nothing that denotes “eternality” when it comes to Jesus. Such a notion is foreign to the Bible.
19:16 As a Catholic I think Thomas Aquinas's doctrine of the analogy might help here.
I'd like to hear Fred's justification for saying the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, rather than from the Father. If anyone has any recommendations for an explanation of the Western Church's argument for adding the Son to that part of the Nicene Creed, I'd like to read it. I don't have a commitment to either side of the Filioque question but would like to look into it.
In any case, I found it a bit frustrating that Fred took a position on that issue without explaining or justifying his reason for taking that position.
Jesus says he will send his spirit in Luke 24. This has typically been the church’s defense. Fred doesn’t have to justify the statement, because the topic is not about the sending of the Holy Spirit and the discussion of the Filioque is a niche Christian disagreement.
Why not have Dr Fred debate Dale Tuggy?
Perhaps Fred doesn't do debates, as you suggest. No big deal. Also, you state it like Sean has control over either person. Nope.
I remembered "a great suggestion" in order to understand God:
" Seek not to understand that you may believe, but seek to believe that you may understand ..."
Not a suggestion from the bible. As faith comes hope and we must reason our hope as 1 Peter 3:15.
Blind faith allows people to believe in nonsense like Jesus being God, but if you read the Holy Bible he was not nor could legally be other than a man, whose Father was God.
@Simon Skinner You could not be more wrong. Many Scriptures make it clear that Jesus is God and claimed it repeatedly. However, one only has to point out that Jesus was crucified for blasphemy -- precisely the "blasphemy" of claiming to be God Himself, I Am. Do you not believe the Bible?
@@justin10292000 Jesus was possessed by the Holy Spirit that he received at baptism, as Jesus explained in John 5:31 he as a person was not witness to himself, but his Father who he impersonated.
Blasphemy was for breaking Sabbath and calling himself Son of God as John 5:18, he never would or could claim to be God, he had to be born of a woman under the law to qualify to be the Messiah.
When he said "I am'" those words came from God who was inside him.
My latest Ytube video 'John 3:13 Did Jesus come down from heaven? No #28 Myths in so-called Christianity' exposes another misreading of the NT as people try to make Jesus into the Creator.
@@justin10292000 many scriptures make it clear that Jesus is God lol yet your church fathers, history, primary sources say otherwise. it's hilarious how, no matter what, idolators will find their way to the fire.
@@justin10292000 .. what verses are you reading?
You're only giving your opinion and making assumptions which are not supported in scripture.
I needed this video. Thanks. I like the term Threeness of God and I have a suggestion for all those who think of God as Father (1) + Son (1) + HS(1) = 3 Persons...How about we say Father (1) x Son (1) x HS (1) = 1 Person
Trinitarian = one God in three Persons.
@ChristineLynnForTheWin Hi ChristineLynn. Thanks for the comment. I like the way you made your comment. It was gracious. I wish you could go a little further and help me understand how I might be heretical.
Where does David Alexander go wrong in his UA-cam video on the Trinity?
This man Fred was very “unboring.” I liked this discussion.
Weird that it popped up today. I am co-teaching 5-7 year olds on the “ABC’s of God.” This next Sunday we are teaching on the Trinity. I was wanting to listen to something to add to my understanding as I prepare. And this popped up!
Fred, how would you explain the Trinity to 5-7 year olds?? I have some idea based on listening to this video….but I’d love to hear your exact wording.
Excellent discussion!
As Hans Fiene would say "That's modalism, Patrick!"
Totally under appreciated sketch.
"I'm not picking up what you're laying down.""
Oh Patrick...
@@carsonphillips1377..... tell us a bit more about this trinity thing. Yeah Patrick tell us but remember that we're simple people without your fancy education in books and learning and we're hearing about all of this for the first time so try to keep it simple.....Okay Patrick?
How important is the Trinity? I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Indeed not the word Trinity) are mentioned in the first 7 church creeds. Justification by faith is not mentioned in any of the early creeds. Hmmm?
The trinity is a litmus test for Christian indoctrination. Congrats you are less manipulatable than many of your peers
The trinity is important for Satan. to make a Problem for the connention with GOD
trough Jesus the Christ. The trinity is a Spirit of confusion. amd uncertainty
@@hommerecorder7003the only confusion is you trying to claim God let His church fall into complete heresy. The trinity is completely supported by scripture.
@@bruhmingo bud!
you said "The trinity is completely supported by scripture."
*can you show where Jesus himself teaches that God is 3 in 1 and all are equally divine?*
@@bruhmingothe church was falling into heresy during Paul’s time. And the Bible tells us that we will trade truth of God for a lie. There will be a falling away. False church, etc. not saying trinity is a heresy for sure or not, but that argument “God wouldn’t let his church” isn’t true because he literally warned them about it. Also there are stuff the church believes today that was deemed heretical back then and would have been kicked out or worse. Heresy became defined by human standards rather than God’s.
As a Catholic and a CCD teacher, I'm saying this is really good teaching!
Thanks for watching!
Garbage! Go ask a Jew! LOl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@SeanMcDowell If Jesus is GOD-----Literally, then just WHO is GOD
the FATHER, Sean?
With respect.
@@SeanMcDowell And WHY do we read the Following in Both,
PSALM 8:5, and the N.T. Fulfillment....HEB.2:7-9;
"You ( GOD) MADE him ( Jesus), a little LOWER than the Angels...
and Crowned him with Glory and Honor."
QUESTION;
WHO, "Made" Whom?
AND;
WHO, "Crowned" Whom.....?
And there are MANY more Scriptures that Debunk the, "Jesus is GOD,"
Crowd!
Please, do NOT misunderstand me! This false, Pagan doctrine was
Designed to DIVIDE the Churchworld Against itself! And That is PRE
CISELY what it has DONE!
@@raygsbrelcik5578 If you check an interlinear, you will realize that "made ... lower" is one word. The word "made" is used in the same way as in the sentence "You made me happy". It is impossible for the verse to mean that the Son was created.
I'm curious why Sr. Sanders said a person should pray mostly to God, sometimes to Jesus, and it's ok or not unbiblical to pray to the Holy Spirit. Since the Trinity is One person, why should or does it matter which name one uses?
Interesting, thanks
Of course!
@@SeanMcDowell You're a good man, Sean----but there is MUCH
You know NOT, concerning this, "trinity" thing! With all respect, it is a
Man made, Post Apostolic, Dark Age Doctrine.
There IS but ONE, Literal, Almighty GOD...Therefore, there IS but ONE,
Almighty, Eternal, Omniscient HOLY SPIRIT.
THAT can ONLY be...the FATHER!
Jesus, contrastly....is NOT the FATHER.
Nor is he a,....SPIRIT.
"SON of GOD," is NOT the same as, IS GOD, my friend!
Seek WISDOM.
Seek Truth.
As one who identifies as trinitarian, I will admit there are challenges.
Which version/model of the Trinity do we subscribe to?
To take Dean’s advice, look at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy’s entry on the Trinity… it could be the case that we’re conflating several versions/models of the Trinity together.
On that note, it’s important to focus on some differences.
There are “classical/historical” trinitarians who say the Trinity only has one will. To teach more than one will is to risk teaching tri-theism, in their view.
On the other hand, we have “social-hierarchical” trinitarians who claim that the Son is eternally subject to the Father’s authority. But the “classical/historical” pushback is that eternal subjection demands more than one will within the Godhead, which goes against the “classical/historical” view of there being one will in the Trinity.
As well, how do we define “person”? Do we take the social-hierarchical route to say that the family unit, the Genesis 2:24 model is the best analogy for the three persons? (While maintaining that no analogy is perfect.)
Or do we take the “classical/historical” route to avoid using human-person analogies - to instead emphasize that “person” is more like a “subsistence” or, as Boethius phrased it, “individual substance of a rational nature”?
(And then, how do we even define such terms, like “subsistence”?)
The more I dive in, the more I feel… dispirited.
Please stop 🛑. Don’t dive too far in without knowing how to ask the Holy Spirit. The three aspects/persons of The One God always point back to the same one Will. They always support each other’s testimony and never divert to lead one astray. With the subsistence,God being infinitely powerful Omnipotent, has the ability to not only sustain and support himself as one but as the Son Jesus Christ, and as The Holy Spirit. Please don’t keep asking SOO many questions at one time without stopping to wait for An Answer or Two. There is a song that literally states “ I’m going to wait for An Answer from you.” I fervently pray that you will not allow the questions to throw you further down the rabbit hole of infinite questions. Please let me know if this helps you at all and when you slow down I’m sure it will help as well.❤️🙏🏽💯
I hear ya, brother. It is a very difficult concept. Thank God for grace.
You are overcomplicating and overthinking this my friend. I can explain the Trinity via a simply demonstration. Since the essence of all three are exactly the same, it leads all three to the same will, yes Jesus wanted to rid himself of his cup (death) if there was another way, but he still yielded to the Father's will, so he trusted the Father and thus the Fathers will was his will. Jesus had to overcome the flesh also, thus he needed to pray. Jesus was led into the desert by the Spirit, when he denied Satan over a period of time he came out of the desert in the *Power of the Spirit* As per the Trinity:
Lets take a three (3) trillion gallon reservoir of water, it has the exact same chemical makeup throughout in every ounce of water (PHD levels). Likewise the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE in Essence and Likeness, they are Love, Hope, Joy, Peace Kindness etc. etc. So, take 100 gallons (Jesus) of that water and pour it over your head, you will be soaking wet but A-OK. Again, take another 100 gallons of water (Holy Spirit) and pour that over your head also, again, you will no doubt be soaked, but not harmed in the least. NOW...........take the whole three (3) trillion gallons (God the Father) of water and pour that over your head and you will surely die !! Only God the Father has the Abundance of the Glory. Hence men could look upon Jesus and live, the Holy Spirit lives in our hearts and we are not harmed, hence we receive God's Peace, Joy, Love Hope etc. etc. but if we actually looked upon the Glory of God the Father we would die, like the 70 did who looked into the Ark of the Covenant, Moses saw His hinder parts and glowed it is said.
Since they are all one in Spirit, they all have the exact same mind/will, but their offices are three different offices. We have God the Father, God the Redeemer and God the Helpmate.
I understand you problem is via the will, but Love, Hope, Peace, Joy always has the will of perfection. There is no other choices for all three, when that happens you get Lucifer rebelling.
Thanks for noticing! Rarely does anyone bother clarifying this for me!
@@MrRondonmon Not really. This is basic stuff.
Ironically, the complicated part rests within the historical/classical view of personhood, whereas the social-hierarchical view may be guilty of simplifying too much.
I did focus on the “will” part , but there’s the issue of “mind” as well.
How do we say there are three distinct “persons”, and yet only one mind as the “historical/classical” view teaches?
It just seems like trinitarians struggle with a fine line between:
- teaching modalism as to erase any real distinction on one hand
- or teaching too much distinction between the “persons” - leaning towards “tri-theism” on the other.
It just seems like there’s always a tension.
As for the subjection of will (Luke 22:42), the classical/historical view teaches that Christ has two wills - one human will, one divine will. That it’s the human will that’s subject to the Father, not the one divine will possessed by the other two persons.
That Christ has two wills is labeled “chalcedonian” - the Orthodox view of Christology, which many, if not most lay-trinitarians are not aware of.
You can believe whatever you want, but that does not make it more true.
Collossians 2;9
I've found the Trinity to be confusing and beyond my ability to really comprehend. But what real thing isn't hard to understand? I would expect the finite to have a very hard time understanding the infinite. And the fact that people have a hard time understanding this I feel lends credence to it being the truth.
If you cant explain something to someone in an understandable way you don’t understand it yourself.
But sure let’s give god a pass on explanation cause he’s only going to torture people for eternity…. Wait..
@@logan666 Wrong, God does not condemn anyone, people foolishly condemn themselves by refusing to accept the free gift of Salvation. So, God is a perfect and holy God, He CAN NOT enter the Presence of sin did you know that? His Holy Being would destroy that sin, that is why Jesus had to be left all alone on the cross and that why he cried out "My God, my God why have you forsaken (left) me? When Jesus rose and saw Mary, in John ch. 20, he told her touch me not for I have not yet ascended unto the Father, but 8 days later he told Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds. If Mary had merely touched Jesus she would have defiled the Sacrificial Offering and God could nit have accepted it because it would have had sin stained hands on the sacrifice.
So, life lies in the blood, our sin is death and thus we needed and atonement of innocent blood in order for God to justify us, and cleanse of from our sins, he sent Jesus who loved us enough to do that or else Satan would have already defeated us. Satan is the god of this world as we speak, God had to win us back. So, in essence you were condemned to hell by the Sin Stain of Adam, and Jesus died for you, all you have to do is accept that FREE GIFT. Now, what would you call a man on *DEATH ROW* who refused a *Pardon* ? Most people would call him very, very dumb, and they would have to say what? Ultimately that man *CONDEMNED HIMSELF* and thus Gid is not torturing you, you are refusing His FREE GIFT that can give you life eternal, and you instead listen to the liar Satan who deceives you, you blame God when it was that LYING FOOL who created a chasm n=between man and God. Thus you will win your prize, Hell was created for Satan and his Demons, yet YOU............YOU..........YOU are choosing to be separated from God for eternity, because He can not welcome anyone to heaven with sin in their life. So, you will win your prize Satan and his demons will indeed torture you, and laugh at you, every time they defile you. And God is just not able to receive the FOOL who refuses the FREE GIFT of Eternal Life, because God's Presence can not abide sin. DUH
@@MrRondonmon Don't throw your Pearls Before Swine. In other words this guy's just here to fight and insult people. Best not to engage him.
Can you understand that Jesus is a man approved by God?
Rubbish! The truth is simple and uncomplicated, it's the lies that don't make a bit of sense.
You spoke of the relationship of the Son to the Father in terms of what it is NOT.... not created, not subordinate. Is there a good way to explain in positive terms why Jesus chose these two family roles to explain their relationship?
Jesus didn’t choose
...Yes, but what aspect of “sonship” and “fatherhood” applies to their relationship?
@@cc3775 Actually, why couldn’t we say that He did choose? Couldn’t we say that God the Father chose that human word for the human role of father in order for us to more closely understand His relationship to us? He works within the boundaries of our limited language to convey lofty things.
@@yvichenj333 I never said God didn’t. I said Jesus didn’t.
@@yvichenj333 Jesus could not do anything by himself. Jesus only followed GOD's command. What are you saying???
In John 5:30, Jesus says, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge" Jesus could not do anything by himself and he needed permission and was dependent.
Sean, what are your thoughts about the Orthodox Church doctrine of the "Monarchy of the Father" and how this relates to the filioque clause?
The Trinity for me is the hardest thing to understand.. when you read the bible, Jesus is praying to the father (third person) when Jesus gets baptised by John, As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”.. How are we supposed to get that all this is just one person. Is Jesus talking to himself, praising himself......... So difficult this to fathom in a logical sense, and like most, i do want to get this right, but i can see why some people can think this is some paganism creeping in to the early church... What makes more sense to me is, God is so divine, and outside time and space, not of this universe, that he needs divine holy Channels of communication, which is the Father, son and holy spirit... and again....... Jesus says the only way to God is through me, Jesus Christ. (God in the third person again) it just fries your brain the more you think about it, because all the evidence is there, that this trinity theory, in the way they want you to believe, is wrong, and made up, in a way, to stop it seeming like there is more than one God, so they have to come up with this convoluted idea, because without it, then we are getting into 3 Gods and paganism. We Accept Angels speaking for God, but they are not God, so why does Jesus have to be God, to be a representative of God, why cant he just be like Angel Gabriel who came to Mary. how can Jesus be God, when Jesus is sitting on the right side of God... Non of it makes any sense to me..
It makes no sense because it is false. There is no trinity. There is only one God, the God of our lord Jesus Christ.
John 14:10-11
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
John 10:30
"30 I and my Father are one."
John 14:20
"20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."
Matthew 3:16
"16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"
Colossians 1:19
"19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;"
Colossians 2:9
"9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
Matthew 28:19
"19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
Or when God describes himself in plural in Genesis 1:26
Genesis 1:26
"26 And God said, Let us make man in our image..."
@@-Pierre
Do you think all of these John verses tell us that Jesus is God?
John “17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.”KJV
Hmmmm. It says here that all of Jesus’ disciples are one with him and with the Father. And that they are in them. Does that mean all of Jesus’ disciples are God too? Be consistent.
Colossians verses.
1Corinthians “6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”KJV
John “2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.”KJV
Where does God dwell? In a temple right? Jesus is the temple of God. We are also the temple of God if we have the spirit of God dwelling within us. Again, according to your reading of scripture, all of Jesus’ disciples are God as well.
A temple is the house God dwells in. The fullness of God dwells in his temple. God dwelled in the temple in Jerusalem, do you mistake that temple as being God as well? Again, be consistent.
Mathew 28:29 what name do we baptize in? According to Acts, we baptize in the name of Jesus Christ.
Acts “2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”KJV
Is Gods name Jesus? No, Gods name is YHWH. Do Jesus and God have the same name? According to revelation they do not.
Revelation “3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”KJV
Another interesting tidbit regarding Acts 2:38. The Holy Spirit is a gift. Is a person a gift?
Mathew 3:16. Ironically, this so called trinity proof text actually shows the moment that the word became flesh in a 30 year old man Jesus of Nazareth, absolutely destroying the trinitarian interpretation of John 1. Don’t take my word for it, see the testimony of the witness John provided in John 1.
Genesis “1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”KJV
You might have wanted to read just one verse farther.
God was not alone in heaven when he created man BY HIMSELF. There were also angels present.
When you start using plural pronouns to try to prove a trinity, you are actually acknowledging the fact that you worship more than one god. Is that really what you want to do?
Perhaps you should think it through.
@@driller7714 You present a fairly coherent case as to why the doctrine of the Trinity should be examined. Yet, I think you overreach in your assumptions and do not take the whole of Scripture into consideration. You would probably say the same thing about those, like myself, who believe the Trinity to be correct doctrine.
To answer your critiques and questions:
In John 17, what is the "one" that Jesus is speaking of? Is it one in being? If it is, then you can say that your interpretation is correct. However, if it is not, then you are simply reading your viewpoint into the text. The context would seem to point to a oneness of purpose - "so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me...I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them." John 17:23 and 26. This would support the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons, one being, and one in purpose.
In Colossians, Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation." This is referring to his place as ruler of all creation, his pre-eminence as eternal God. "In him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell" and "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily". Jesus is truly God and truly man. See also Philippians 2:5-11.
Regarding the temple, the verse you quoted states that the Holy Ghost dwells in us. If God dwells in us and the Holy Ghost dwells in us, this would support the Trinity - that the Holy Ghost IS God. Acts 7:48-49 says, "Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made by hands, as the prophet says, 'Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest?'" Jesus's body was the temple of God - as the Colossians and Philippians passages demonstrate - precisely because He was literally God made flesh (John 1:14). You could also reference Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 9:6, Romans 8:3.
I assume you mean Matthew 28:19 - and we baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." The Greek here supports the oneness of being and the separate persons. Basically, it is three "whos" (persons) and one "what" (being). Also, the "in" can be translated as "into", which would support the oneness of purpose from John 17 that Jesus prayed for his followers. This would also clarify the Acts 2:38 statement. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through him. (John 14:6) Thus, being baptized in the name of Jesus is being baptized INTO the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (God).
Is God's name Jesus? Technically, no, the name of the Son is Yeshua. The name that God gives Moses is YHWH, or I AM. Yet, Jesus says in John 8:58: "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." He also says this in John 18:5 and 8. The term in Greek is "ego eimi" - this is how the Septuagint translates Exodus 3:14. See also in John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." The response by the Jews in John 8 and 10 is telling - they pick up stones to stone Jesus. Why? John 10:33: the Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God." The Jewish people recognized immediately what Jesus claimed - that he WAS God. Not a representative or a creation of God, but the same being.
Revelation 3:12 - what is the new name? Revelation 19:11-13 would seem to answer that question: "Faithful and True" and "The Word of God." Thus, in Revelation 3:12, those who keep his word through patient endurance and hold fast to what they have will be called Faithful and True.
I would not call Matthew 3:16-17 a "proof-text" for the Trinity, but it does seem to show the difference in person between the Father and the Son and the Spirit. As to the Holy Spirit being a gift and your question "Can a person be a gift?" - the answer quite clearly is yes, a person can be a gift. In Ephesians 4:11-12, people as gifts are given to the church "And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ..." The Holy Spirit is God - clearly seen in Acts 5:3-4. Additionally, the Holy Spirit is a person - he calls people and has work for them to do (Acts 13:1-3) is one example. As to Matthew "absolutely destroying the trinitarian interpretation of John 1" - I am not sure how you come to that conclusion. Jesus is God, he is co-eternal and co-equal with God. The Greek structure of John 1:1 makes that abundantly clear.
Genesis 1:26-27 - the word for God in all of Genesis 1 is elohim. It is a plural form of the word eloah. Now, compare to Deuteronomy 4:35: YHWH is haelohim. Therefore, the plural form of God in Genesis 1, elohim, is also YHWH according to Deuteronomy 4:35. Indeed, this verse states that there is no other God beside him. How can a plural (elohim) also be a singular (YHWH)? The doctrine of the Trinity answers this question. God is one in being and three in person. Look at Isaiah 42:8: "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to anyone else, nor share my praise with carved idols." Yet Jesus receives worship from the disciples (John 20:24-29; Matthew 14:33 and 28:9). In Revelation 19:9-10, John falls down to worship the angel, but is told "You must not do that!...Worship God." If it is wrong to worship anyone but God and God himself says that He will not share His glory with another, how can Jesus say "glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."? (John 17:5) The only way this can happen is if Jesus IS God. And the doctrine of the Trinity presents this view, which is coherent with the whole teaching of Scripture.
Is God addressing the angels when He speaks of creating man in Genesis 1:26? Nowhere in the Bible do we see the angels taking part in creation - Job 38 references them shouting for joy at the foundation of the earth, but they are not part of the creation process. Additionally, if God is a singular person, then He could not have had attributes clearly associated with God, especially love. "God does not live in temples made by human hands, nor is He served by humans, as if He needed anything." Acts 17:24-25. Yet, if God was singular, the only way He could love would be to create - which would mean that He did need something from humans. This, too, points to the triune nature of the Godhead.
Not adding anything of value here other than to say, you are not alone in this brain understanding disconnect. I’ve always believed the Trinity and it wasn’t until recently when trying to figure out how to pray to God the Father as Christ gives the example, that I pray to God the Father, through Christ the Son in the Holy Spirit. A hierarchy always comes to my mind… the God the Father is the Almighty, Christ the Son is the Savior, Messiah, ordained and given Authority by the Father and the Holy Spirit is His omnipresence aspect.. we’re trying to describe a concept that is beyond space and time with words that are limited by the constructs He ordained. Is it enough to say the Christ is my Savior, sent by God the Father and once you accept His salvation, He provides the Holy Spirit to seal and direct us? Do we have to understand the Trinity to be saved? I’m not sure… if God the Father gives Christ the Son Authority, it’s His to give anyway, so that makes Christ God anyway. I’m not smart enough to know how that might break things down further in scripture and possibly cause more questions or contradictions. Trinity to me, is just the word used for explaining how the Three have all Authority and are holy, worthy of praise and worship. Maybe in there we lose the personhood of the Holy Spirit to just sound like an entity, I don’t believe that. All this to say, people have been discussing this deeply for centuries, there must be some depth to arguments we do not agree with that we could understand why/how they can think that way. Maybe this is an in house discussion that doesn’t necessarily take someone out of the realm of salvation? I’ve been a Christian for almost 25 years, the doc of Trinity has always been difficult to understand, but clearly there is a relationship between the Three that is above all. I am a Trinitarian but only in as much as I can’t explain the Godness of Father, Son and Holy Spirit in any other way that does not devalue Son and Holy Spirit. Clearly, Jesus is Savior - worthy of worship!!! - clearly the Holy Spirit is holy and even the “unforgivable sin” relates to blaspheming the Holy Spirit, so He is essential too. Remember that God is just but merciful, this is important absolutely, but will He have mercy in not fully understanding the relationship between the Three? I believe so.
The God of Jesus is not a three person being. Since there is only one true God, how is it that you have a God which Jesus does not?
You're right. Jesus is the divine Son of God. If you do not know the real Father and His Son, you do not have life.
@@oftheborg
The Scripture says
Whosoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God 2jn1:9
Jesus said No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son
Again;
Jesus said O righteous Father the World have not known you but I know you and this have known that you sent me Jn17:25 Kjv
Very Very Clear Verse
JESUS SAID THE WORLD HAS NOT KNOWN GOD ALMIGHTY
Jesus said and I have DECLARED to them your NAME and will declared it that the love with which you Love me may be in them and I in them (Jn 17:26)
JESUS DECLARED TO HIS DISCIPLES THE NAME OF THE FATHER
John said this is the MESSAGE WHICH WE HAVE HEARD FROM HIM And Declared to you that GOD IS LIGHT ( 1jn1: 5 KJV)
GOD IS LIGHT
JESUS IS LIGHT
So..
JESUS IS THE NAME OF THE FATHER
John said Only ONE SAT on the throne Rev 4:2
Paul said Jesus Throne is forever and ever heb1: 8
Question
Where is the Throne of Others..? If God is 3 person..?
Where is the Throne of Jehovah, Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim, Yhwh, ect..?
God is One and ALONE
Before me there was NO GOD formed, neither shall there be AFTER ME
God was manifest in the flesh (1tim3:16)
His name is,== JESUS
(Not Jehovah, Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim, Yhwh, ect.)
John said for many deceivers have gone out into the World who do not confess Jesus Christ come in the flesh, this is Deceiver An Antichrist 2 Jn1:7
Jesus said the first of all the commandment is HEAR O ISRAEL the Lord our God is One Lord Mark 12:29
Question
Who is One Lord..?
Answer
Paul said Jesus Christ is One Lord (1Cort 8:6)
I am the Lord and there is none else, THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE ME, I girded thee though thou has not known me Isa 45:5
One Lord one faith and One baptism
One God and Father of all
Paul said but even if we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you let him be Accursed (Gal 1: 8)
Where's your verse for "Jesus is the divine son of God"?
Jesus calls Peter "blessed" in Matthew 16 for getting his identity right.
Jesus explains in John 14:10-11 that God INDWELLS him.
If he were God, that would be a ridiculous thing to say.
And the first letter of John would look VERY different if the Trinity were true and Jesus were God.
Would he really repeat his warning in 1st John 4:2-3 if Jesus were divine???
The man you replied to has an excellent UA-cam channel which you would do well to watch.
Correct
@@leenieledejo6849 John 10:33-3- The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
One of the best discussions on the trinity yet. One thing wasn't addressed - the definition of "person" since the claim is God in 3 persons. Sean, you are self conscious, intelligent, with a brilliant mind and some creative power, you are made in the image of God after all. Do you think your mind and creative power is another person or part of your own self?
God is supremely self conscious, intelligent and has perfect mind with unlimited creative power.
Why do you think God's mind and power is a separate person and not just part of HIS OWN SELF?
Would love to see this addressed. Great points
Do you use I am, me and myself for one literal person or three persons? GOD uses singular PROSOPO for GOD in Heb 9:24 which means FACE OR PERSON(singular and not plural), so GOD is ONE PERSON
Where does it say in the Bible that they are of the same substance or essence? I’m having trouble finding that.
"Three persons and one essence" or "three hypostases and one ousia" are simply them using philosophical language to get around biblical contradictions. One part of the Bible says only one God. Another part says Jesus is God. Yet multiple others treat Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit as distinct entities. Have to resolve that somehow, and they employed language from Aristotelian and Neo-Platonic metaphysics so that they could articulate it in a way that, at least grammatically, contains no contradiction.
Theology involves a lot of word worship. Mystical powers are ascribed to words, such that they assume that what you are allowed to do with words is the same as what reality allows and that what words do not allow is the same as what reality disallows.
Essences are found in the store and used for cakes.
There is only one occurrence of its use in the Bible.
Psalms 119:160 The very essence of your word is truth,
Jesus highlighted this when praying to his God Jehovah:
John 17:17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.
I'm not sure it's necessary to go to all these lengths to try and put God in a nice neat little Box that might be wrong anyway.
What a horrible misrepresentation. We are trying to articulate the way God has revealed himself. If you don’t like it, take it up with God. The trinity is 100% correct because God’s word is infallible.
@@bruhmingocareful to use that argument. sounds a bit prideful “____is 100% correct because the Bible is infallible” when different denominations use that exact reasoning when they clearly have incorrect views sometimes
1 Cor. 8:6 is the oldest recorded Christian creedal statement and directly contradicts the Trinity. Anything beyond that is from the wicked one.
Funny how ~3 years later Paul called God "Lord" and mixed the attributes of the Father and the Son in Romans 11.
@@the.dannyboy The only thing that is “mixed” up is your ability to interpret scripture. Paul knows full well that there is an ontological distinction between God the Father and his only-begotten, firstborn of all creation, Jesus Christ. In fact he makes yet another ontological distinction in the very chapter of Romans you absurdly claim supports your pagan, spiritually perverted view when he asks, “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”-Rom. 11:34 This is clearly a reference to Jah proven by the fact that Paul is essentially quoting himself at 1 Cor. 2:16 where he says, "For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.” Thus you embarrass yourself by pointing to a chapter where Paul clearly spells out the fact that as Christians we can’t have the “mind of the Lord/Jah” but we can have the “mind of Christ” showing a clear distinction in nature between God’s mind and Christ’s mind. Try again…
Shalom Bro 🙋♂️ Lets have a Look at that Passage you Quoted because the Whole Chapter is About *Food offered to Idols* or False gods & lords ....Paul was Writing to a Pagan Area that had a god for this and a god for that and a lord for this and a lord for that .....
*1 Corinthians 8:5-6* (N.I.V)
(5) For even if there are so-called gods , weather in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and lords) (6) yet for us there is but *ONE GOD THE FATHER FROM WHOM ALL THINGS COME FOR WHOM WE LIVE* and there is but *ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST THROUGH WHO ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE* .
===================
Right it Looks to me like the FATHER & SON have the Same function " *THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE* "
Or we could use your Logic and Say THE FATHER cant be LORD and the Son Cant be God ...hmmm so EVERYTIME we see LORD in the OLD TESTAMENT its Yeshua/Jesus ....Only when FATHER is Mentioned it is GOD 🙋♂️
I love the Book of Romans ESPECIALLY *Romans 9:5* (N.I.V)
Bless you Brother ❤ *2 Corinthians 13:14* ❤
Hmm my post got removed that ok i just print it out again 🙋♂️ Shalom Bro , The Scripture you Quoted , Paul was Writing to An Pagan Area in Corinth who had a god for this and a god for that and a lord for this and a lord for that ...If you read the Whole Chapter of *1 Corinthians 8* its ALL ABOUT FOOD OFFERED TO IDOLS/FALSE gods & lords. *ACTS 17:21-31* (N.I V)
*1 Corinthians 8:5-6* (N.I.V)
(5) For even if there are so-called gods weather in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and lords) BUT FOR US THERE IS ONLY *ONE GOD THE FATHER FROM WHOM ALL THINGS CAME AND FOR WHOM WE LIVE* and there is only *ONE LORD JESUS THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE*
===================
Right to me its seems THE FATHER AND THE SON have the same Function " *FROM WHOM ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE* "
But if i were to use your Logic that will be like saying *God the Father can not be LORD and Jesus the SON can not be God*
Ok so Every time the word LORD is mentioned in the Old Testament it is YESHUA and ONLY when the Word FATHER is Mentioned is it God ....
I love the Book of Romans ESPECIALLY *Romans 9:5* (N.I.V)
I could listed to you two talk about the trinity for hours. Thanks for this.
2000 years and it’s still illogical and makes no sense
If Jesus is FATHER.
THEN
Was Jesus pregnant her mother?
@@ahsanalijutt3502 I'm seriously shocked the🏳🌈 "progressives" haven't seized the opportunity of calling the trinity THEY/THEM yet?!? God bless!!😇
🤢
@@ahsanalijutt3502 You're a Moron!
as mentioned in history, the trinity was formulated in its current form AFTER 400 YEARS - acc to Britannica - The Council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the Son is “of the same substance [homoousios] as the Father,” even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit. Over the next half century, St. Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula, and, by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of St. Basil of Caesarea, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.
Illustrations at 35:05? The confounding nature of the trinity is echoed in the confounding nature of matter. The elements of the periodic table that make up matter consist of a nucleus and electrons. The nucleus is made up of nucleons--protons and neutrons--the building blocks of atomic nuclei. Within nucleons we encounter the strongest of the fundamental forces--the strong nuclear force. Each nucleon is made up of 3 quarks--that's one nucleon consisting of 3 quarks, which cannot exist in isolation of each other. Whereas the force of electromagnetism and gravity weakens with distance between particles, the strong nuclear force increases in strength, such that it is impossible to separate quarks from each other. It's as if God imprinted the very fundamental nature of matter with his triune signature.
Really enjoyed this discussion and will be sharing it with others. As for explaining the trinity to others, I found the best analogy which is not a perfect one is that...
God is the divine "family" name, and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the only members of that "family".
It is similar to if only myself, my brother, and sister were the only three people left in my family. Our family name is "Skelton" but only three people make up that family name now.
Like I said, it is not a perfect analogy but it seems to get the point across that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are NOT three Gods but rather "family" God consists of three divine beings! The ONE TRUE GOD, consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all interacting with each other, of the same mind and purpose, but yet, with their own unique function within the Godhead.
I hope that helps with some in grasping the trinityish nature of God.
______________________
Though I don't feel it is a salvation issue, but rather a scripture technicality issue, one thing Dr Sanders stated was that Jesus has "existed always as the Son of the Father, Eternally generated or begotten second person" (about 17:32-17:58 in the video). If I understand those statements correctly, he is saying that Jesus existed as the Son of God prior to Him taking on flesh. Unless I missed a passage or more, I can't really find that idea from scripture.
However, I can find that He existed prior to taking on flesh...
> As God the Word: John 1:1-14,
> In the form of God: Philippians 2:5-8
> As LORD GOD: Hebrews 1:8-12
> In a higher state than the angels: Hebrews 2:9-18
> As the Alpha and the Omega, the Almighty: Revelation 1:8, 17
> As I AM: John 8:58-59
There are other scriptures that show how He was known prior to taking on flesh and I can't find any that say He was known as the Son of God prior to that time. There are O.T. prophecies of Him becoming and called the Son of God but that is not seeing at the time the prophecy was made HE IS THE SON OF GOD at that time.
From my understanding of scripture, Jesus was known as all of the above and by other names or designations but then He humbled Himself, placing Himself in subjection to God the Father, the Ancient of Days, the Most High God, and took on flesh. At that point, He fulfilled the prophecies about becoming and being called the Son of God, the beloved Only Begotten of the Most High God. Though God the Father, the Most High God, declared Jesus at His baptism and mount of transfiguration event as His beloved Only Begotten Son, it was through Jesus resurrection that He was confirmed beyond doubt that HE IS the Son of God (Romans 1:4) and will now forever be known as such. In other words, though all three of the Godhead knew He would become and be called the Son of God, He did not actually take on that designation and become such until He took on flesh and blood.
That is how I understand it all.
What is the Holy Spirit's name? Such an important person must have a name, don't you think?
Fred Sanders is great.
Hey! Nice seeing you here Mike! Loved having Fred on the show.
You would think so with your total lack of accurate knowledge.
I LOVE this. I grew up in a cult that denied the Trinity. It called it a "doctrine of demons" and that it was polytheism. Since I understood it (to the limited degree of human comprehension) I fell in love with the Trinity. The way you did it is the way I did it! 1. There is ONE God. 2. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. 3. They are not each other. And I do the same thing with honing in on the part with which they disagree. I like how James White puts it -- there is one What (Being): God, and there are three whos. So it's not like we're saying 1 = 3, or 1 + 1+ 1 = 1 as we are straw manned at times, because the numbers on both side of the equal side do not represent the SAME THING.
I also agree that we should stay away from "object lessons" (states of matter, triangles, eggs, etc.) because they ALL fall short and fail in some way, and that's a GOOD thing. This is GOD. He is like nothing in all creation. He is unique and set apart. He is other.
Glad you enjoyed, thanks for watching!
Special pleading 101.
3 =/= 1
3 = 1 but the equal sign doesn’t count
Question for you: if God is unique and set apart, then how can he interact in this world that is not part of him? And if he is part of nature but set apart from us then why did he make us “in his image”? No one has ever been able to tell me what parts of humanity are godly and what parts are ‘set apart’ from god…
@@logan666 I'd reread my comment, because you are committing a Straw Man fallacy regarding the 3 =/= 1, etc. You have to respond to my actual argument.
You are set apart from a computer you may build, but you can certainly interact with it despite being outside of it.
We are distinct from animals in that we have the capacity to reason, as God does with volition, as God has.
We are moral beings, while animals are amoral.
So in some ways we are like God (made in His image) in ways that nothing else in all creation is. But the ways in which God is set apart from us is almost infinite. He is holy, righteous, perfectly good, omniscient, omnipotent, Spirit, etc. We are none of those things.
@@logan666 This requires SCRIPTURE, my friend...Not Math!
@@biblicalworldview1 Exegetical Hermeneutics are required to
determine Biblical Truth, my friend.
GOD is ONE ( SPIRIT.).
HE IS ONE ( LORD).
Jesus, on the other hand-----Is NOT a, Spirit.
GOD bless.
I’ve got a question Sean: I just recently heard the term modalism, and I heard in your conversation. How is this thinking heretical?
I am not the authority on the subject but I can try to answer; I think it’s because the Father and Word/Son and the Spirit have eternally existed as distinct persons, and if each were merely different ‘modes’ of God than perhaps they are less than God. But we need our Savior to be fully God and fully Man to secure our salvation. I’m sure there are better answers but I believe the answer is in this area.
Modalism is heresy because it removes the distinction between the persons of the trinity, instead proposing that God is one person who expresses himself in three different forms, ie a man can be a father, a husband, and a coach. Modalism teaches that the father son and Holy Spirit are three roles the one person of God plays, rather than the orthodox trinitarian view which states the father son and Holy Spirit and three distinct persons who share one divine essence.
I am curious explain to me from the scriptures how, under Trinitarian thinking it's logical that Jesus and God are the same person...at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations [“the times of the Gentiles,” King James Version] are fulfilled.” now we know that jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation and was the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. We can read that at Psalm 48:1, 2 these kings were unique among national leaders because they actually sat on on God's throne” as representatives of God himself. (1 Chronicles 29:23) so jerusalem was a symbol of Gods rulership right? This "trampling on by the nations happened in 607 bce when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians, God's throne became vacant and the line of kings that descended from David had been interrupted (you can read this at 2 kings 25:1-26) now this trampling wouldn't go on forever... Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: “Remove the turban, and take off the crown. . . . It will not belong to anyone until the one who has the legal right comes, and I will give it to him.” (the person saying "I" is God) (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) “The one who has the legal right” to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) so the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became king...now I can go into when exactly that happened and all that but I say all this to say or ask..if God and Jesus are the same person if Jesus was simply "God in the flesh" then went back to being "God again" after being resurrected why are we givin significant scriptures in the Bible that show that Jesus is given authority and rulership of a kingdom from his father? And then we are told from the Bible that he gives that rulership BACK to his father after he accomplishes everything he is set to do under that title of King
1Corinthians 15:24-28 says "Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him that God may be all things to everyone."
He wasn't handing "himself the kingdom back and forth to himself" at different times in history he actually handed it over to his actually literal son then his son gives it back to him once it's all said and done.
In Daniel 7:13,14 daniel is given a vision showing that God (the ancient of days and sovereign ruler of the universe) appoints his Son, "Jesus" rulership over his kingdom
In Matthew 28:18 Jesus says he is given all authority not only on earth but also in heaven
1 Corinthians 15:27,28 states that God subjected all things under his sons feet all things EXCEPT himself
Jesus earned his right to rule over his father's kingdom right? He did what Adam was unable to do, he showed that a perfect man with free will can remain loyal to God he fulfilled all the prophecies that were written about him hundreds of years before he was born on earth and he accomplished what he was sent here to accomplish. He bought back mankind's opportunity to live forever with his own life and established Christianity which enables all of us the opportunity to have a relationship with the sovereign ruler of the universe, God. He wasn't just some rich entitled brat who was handed his kingship solely on the fact that he was next in line..no he earned it. Fast forward Jesus continues to accomplish his fathers will he brings ruin to all the wicked governments does away with wicked people and establisheses peace and destroys mankind's real enemy "death" or the ability to die...Then when it's all done after after 1000 year reign the scriptures say that Jesus hands the kingdom back over to his father at 1 Corinthians 15:24
Now try and explain how this info is harmonious and accurate under the trinity doctrine...God takes the crown off his own head changes his entire identity puts the crown back on his head then takes it off again changes his identity back and them puts the crown back again??..🤴🏾🤴🏻🤴🏾
God bestowing his Kingship to his Son takes place in heaven...Jesus Giving the kingship back to his father takes place in heaven there is no "oh there is distinction of him being made flesh so we can understand it"..or "it is the essence of him that made him take his crown off and give himself a completely different identity then change is identity back and give himself the crown back" that isn't logical at all this happened in a spirit realm between 2 completely separate entities.
When was Jerusalem and the temple destroyed by the Babylonians?
@@kevinfromcanada4379 607 BCE
I want to tell you the fascinating story about when the Trinity verse was added to the Bible. This is a well-documented fact, detailed in "Whose Word Is It?: The Story Behind Who Changed the New Testament and Why" by Professor Bart Ehrman, an expert in biblical textual criticism.
In the 16th century, Erasmus, a Dutch scholar, produced the first printed edition of the Greek New Testament. The New Testament was originally written in Greek, but had been translated into Latin over the centuries. Erasmus aimed to create a critical scholarly edition based on Greek texts, relying mainly on late medieval manuscripts from the 12th century.
Erasmus’s edition of the Greek New Testament was later used by the translators of the King James Bible and other versions until the end of the 19th century. However, the Greek manuscripts Erasmus used were not of high quality and were produced about eleven hundred years after the originals. For example, his main manuscript for the gospels included the story of the woman taken in adultery and the last verses of Mark, which were not part of the original gospels.
One key passage missing from Erasmus’s manuscripts was 1 John 5:7-8, known as the Johannine Comma, which explicitly supports the doctrine of the Trinity. This passage is found in Latin Vulgate manuscripts but not in the majority of Greek manuscripts. The King James Version includes this verse: "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one."
Bart Ehrman notes, "The Greek manuscripts that Erasmus used were not of the best quality... produced some eleven hundred years after the originals." Erasmus did not find this verse in any Greek manuscripts he consulted, so he omitted it from his first edition. This omission outraged theologians of his time, who accused him of tampering with the text. Erasmus reportedly agreed to include the verse in future editions if a Greek manuscript containing it could be produced. Consequently, a Greek manuscript was created in the 16th century, likely by translating the Latin text into Greek. Despite his reservations, Erasmus included the verse in subsequent editions.
These editions formed the basis for the King James Bible and other translations for centuries. The phrase "Textus Receptus" refers to this widely accepted form of the Greek text, despite its reliance on inferior manuscripts. Modern textual scholars now insist on using older and better manuscripts to base the Greek New Testament on scientific principles.
The Textus Receptus, though still revered by some fundamentalists, is based on late medieval manuscripts, whereas earlier manuscripts, such as the Codex Sinaiticus, do not contain the Johannine Comma or other later additions. Ehrman explains, "This passage... states the doctrine directly and succinctly," but it "was not in Erasmus's primary manuscript or in any of the others that he consulted." This realization challenges the solid basis for the Trinity doctrine in the Bible, making it difficult for some Christians to accept.
Fortunately, there are so many other verses in the Bible, both in the Old and the New Testament, that help Christians realize the Trinity.
Bart doesn't believe in God so why would I listen to him? I'll stick with the early church fathers ta. (They were also better writers)
The Trinitarian Doctrine has really fascinated me lately, as well as the Resurrection, as well as...pretty much everything else! That being said, this interview was really insightful, Sean.
I think the concept of the Trinity will always be a topic of debate. It's a very complicated thing for people to conceptualize, myself included. The way that I see it now, as a believer in the Trinity, is this: if God is the perfect being, then I should expect several aspects of His essence and nature to be beyond me. That doesn't mean I won't try to understand it, but I have to be okay with the fact that I won't get to "figure it all out" if that makes sense.
Since God is the perfect being, then why would it be out of the realm of possibility to consider that He could be one essence with 3 persons? I think this is where people get caught up again. As humans, each individual is one person, as far as we currently know! But if we base our premise on solely a human perspective, then we've already forgotten his "beyondness."
Anyway, thanks so much! I'm sure you get this all the time, but your content has really lit a fire in me to study apologetics and theology, and to really start looking more closely at my faith and why I believe what I do. Who knows? Perhaps one day I'll be in one of your classes!
Take care!
Glad you enjoyed. Hope this helped satisfy your fascination a bit.
The trinity is the test strip for Christian indoctrination. If you can stifle cognitive dissonance enough to believe that MONOtheism can be carried out by 3 gods, then you can be manipulated to believe anything.
It’s actually fairly ingenious if your goal is control. (Which, if it’s not, why have sermons at all? Just read your Bible, don’t listen to anyone else interpret for you)
there is no debate if you define the Trinity. Just recite the athanasian creed.
@@jperez7893 OH, but there IS a, "DEBATE!" The, "Athanasian Creed," is
Not BIBLICAL-----It was Crafted by the Corrupt Roman Catholic religion!
The term, "trinity' didn't even EMERGE onto the Churchworld until the
Late 2nd--Early, 3rd Centuries.
Historical FACT.
AND;
The term trinity is found NOWHERE in the HEBREW, or, GREEK
Languages.
Amen.
Sean McDowell For the Trinity "not a problem" that took a lot of complicated waffling.
Unfortunately for the trinitarian you must engage in this merry dance in order to prove this non biblical doctrine.
That was excellent!
The first division of the year is found in Genesis 1. This is where the year is divided into two seasons of summer/day and winter/night. The six days begin at the spring equinox and end at the autumn equinox and the six nights begin at the autumn equinox and end at the spring equinox. This is modified when the first night (Libra) is moved above the equinoctial line and added to the six days (Aries - Virgo) to get the sacred seven signs (Aries thru Libra). This left five nights/months representing winter (Scorpio thru Pisces).
The trinity divides the year into three seasons of four months (120 days) each. An example is Nahor/winter (Sagittarius thru Pisces), Abram/spring (Aries thru Cancer), and Haran/Summer (Leo thru Scorpio). This is also the trinity of Vishnu, Brahma, and Siva.
The four sons of Reuben (Aquarius/Janus) divides the year into four seasons of 90 days each.
Interesting! There is a lot of numerology in the Bible too.
The way I see it is like a programer creating a metaverse. The programer is outside of the metaverse but interacts with the metaverse through code and through his avatar. The Father is the programer, the Word/ Spirit is the code, the avatar is the Son. The programer can only be seen in the metaverse through his avatar and by the works he does through code. So this is why Jesus says if you see me you see the Father and that his works are by the Father or Holy Ghost. I believe Jesus is the Father and the Holy Ghost and the Son, if you are interacting with Jesus or are face to face with him, you are in the presence of the Father in his visible form and all his works are done by his Spirit. This is why if you don't know Jesus you can't know the Father because he is the Father in the flesh. Scripture also says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, just as the Father speaks the Word and Jesus' body is the Spirit made flesh. I hope this makes sense to some people. I pray to the Lord Jesus and know that my prayers go to the Father.
I like what you’re attempting here. You’ve already noticed mine, so you already know the difference. The reason I would go with an AI and subprocesses is that the Avatar of a programmer is an echo of the programmer (or User if we wanted to harken back to Tron). But the avatar of the Programmer is separate from the avatar. They aren’t the same substance, thus creating multiple gods. The self-contained subprocesses avatar of an AI that runs the meta verse is still the same substance with its subprocess, thus you can have three “persons” or as I like to say “loci of thought” but still only one being.
I’m actually impressed with these metaphors. I feel like you’ve gotten the closest to a coherent idea of the trinity compared to many others. My only gripe would be that in all the examples above, the ‘father’ God contains more information than the others. The ‘son’ and ‘spirit’ are sub populations of the father still. In these examples Jesus wouldn’t be God, he would be an avatar in gods control, or a sub process of god. You wouldn’t say that my hand and I are two separate things with the same substance (me). This is all an exercise in futility, as the trinity is inherently incoherent.
@@logan666 Well, a subprocesses could have access to all the information that the central process has or it can have less at the discretion of the central process so long as the central process left that door open and didn’t partition it’s infinite hard drive. The subprocess could be limited without infringing upon the central AI, the way Jesus was voluntarily limited.
And I would say that your hand is the same substance as you. It wouldn’t be a separate person. Unless your hand had its own brain the way stegosaurus is said to have a brain in its tail.
I think one of the amusing aspects of the infinite AI analogy is that if you split the processing power of an infinite AI in half each process has infinite processing power. You can make half the first again to make a third process and they will all three have infinite processing power.
And while we say that the Trinity is incomprehensible by it’s nature, I’m not sure that’s true. Maybe we have just never had an information based universe before to analogize from. Or maybe I just don’t know when to quit. Either way.
Believe what you like but it's completely wrong.
@@djparsons7363 Well, how is it wrong?
Uh, I think you spelt George Lucas incorrectly there Sean
ive heard so many definitions of the trinity i gave up referring to it
Trinitarians can’t even agree on one theory
@@cc3775 This is so dumb, because it is false.
Since there are different metaphysical views about God, it is natural to see many ways of defining the Trinity.
@@AaronOfJerusalemAndAthens Jesus explained who God wss
bv14 john 18:37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason
I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth.
Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
@@raysalmon6566 Jesus didn't give us a metaphysical discussion on the nature of God.
Sometimes these people with phd have no idea what they are talking about . You have to be filled with the holy spirit to understand Scriptures ... meaning god has to Make to known to you . This guy talking about son father and holy spirit describes the trinity when in reality they are titles of one god! But if you go to act 2:38 its reveals who those titles belong to!
I have a question for all 'trinitarians'; When John said "We had a view of his Glory ,a Glory belonging to an 'only begotten from a Father" ( John 1:14). So who was this? was it 'God's only begotten Son who had come down from heaven from his Father? Or was it just a materialised human form called 'Jesus'?
It is true that there is through the New Testament the motive of Father, son, and Spirit, however this does no mean that their relationship agrees with the doctrine of the Trinity as it has been stated since 325 AD.. There are many problems that arise when we try to make sense of Jesus preexisting as God also. There are ontological problems to start with. From scripture, and studying what Adam was made of, we can see that he was made from the dust of the ground and then God breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living being. A human, then it is made of a physical body and the spirit that comes from God, so in the case of Jesus, Jesus’s body made of flesh received a spirit from God, so if we assume Jesus preexisted, where does he fit in in the body and spirit already made in the womb of Mary? Unless we say the spirit given to that body is Jesus, which that creates problems already. The angel Gabriel spoke of that child in the future tense, there was not a hint of a preexisting person coming down into Mary either. Furthermore, as we know, God is Spirit, according to Jesus, and God also never changes his nature, being human is a special creation of God, and to think God changes or can change his nature, is not scriptural or fits our understanding of who God is. Jesus, according to Paul in 1 Timothy 2:5, is a man, and so is the opinion of Peter as in Acts 2:14-36. Despite of a few verses which are used to prove Jesus’s divinity, Paul never refers to Jesus as God in any of his salutations in his letters. With respect to the Spirit, Paul in 1 Corinthians 2 10-11, shows us that the Spirit is not a separate person, but it is part of the Father, it comes from within the Father in a similar way with us, we have a spirit within us, God also has a Spirit within him called the Holy Spirit. So the model of God being a Trinity is incorrect and incoherent with the whole panoply of the Scriptures.
the trinity is a problem since not even all christians accept that concept.
Since when does the truth of a concept depend on people believing it? Fallacious comment.
@TheChristianLife And one more ignorant christian. Yes, it is very true that christians do not agree on the trinity. One rather famous example of a christian who was an antitrinitarian is Isaac Newton.
"That's not true it doesn't matter what you believe not all people that believe that can explain it just as well."
Lots of "Christians" don't believe a lot of things. That term has lost much meaning
If a person rejects the actual Trinity, they reject God as He is and therefore cannot be a Christian. It's okay to be confused in some way or not able to fully grasp it, because we're talking about the infinite God revealing Himself to finite and limited humans.
@@velkyn1 Then Newton was not a Christian, but a theist. There's a difference between not fully grasping it, and actually rejecting Jesus' divine nature.
Pharisees, making the trinity a doctrinal requirement for salvation...
So the thief on the cross gets a pass...but everyone after , no.....please. The audacity of man to place this as a requirement, when the first hundred years didn't "articulate" this doctrine.
Each person will be judged according to the degree of Revelation he or she had. The thief on the cross had so much time left to figure things out, and he did. Most of us have decades. Let's be faithful and keep (and not deny) that amount of truth that was revealed to us.
What do you think is necessary for salvation?
@@nymbusDeveloper86 where does that end, though? People who have never heard of Jesus or God at all, how shall they be judged?
@@ianmartinesq Read the book of Romans chapter 2 and 3 in the NT. Paul explains there. If it is still not clear, go to Romans chapters 9-11.
There's a degree to where human understanding of this is limited. However which of the tenets of the doctrine can you reject and still worship the God of the Bible?
1. There is ONE God.
2. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
3. Neither is the other. (They personally relate to one another.)
Maybe you can make a case for #3 if someone just doesn't understand it, but if they reject it, they are worshiping a god that is different than God's revelation in the Bible. The thief on the cross didn't have access to the New Testament.
Dr. Sanders is goated
Heard one apologetic that delved into 4 dimensional viewed in a 3d world. Was struck by it seemingly being a philosophical solution. Depends what the 4th dimension is I suppose
I have never heard such thought and verbal gymnastics.
Right from the beginning saying that the word bible is not used in the bible as an example to explain why the word trinity is not in the bible is disingenuous.. The word bible (Byblos) describes what it is and not any of its contents. A Dickens novel is a book even though the word book doesn't appear in its pages. I'm afraid It doesn't get any better after that nonsense.
If you don't believe in the Trinity you're not a Christian.
Yes. It is a problem if takes you an hour to explain a core belief of your faith.
Context matters. He answered several questions and didn't just monologue for an hour straight as you're suggesting here.
@Nikki Lengyel maybe but an hour on this is a little down syndromish
@@nikkilengyel Part of explaining sounding complex is to answer questions. I didn't realize if I didn't explicitly explain that, some of the readers would think I meant an hour monologue.
@@_.Leo_. It's not "downsyndromeish". It's a very complex, abstract, and counterintuitive concept.
It's a hard problem..
Amen, brother! Jesus never seemed to be able to explain this “important” doctrine. He spent a lengthy amount of time, in the sermon on the mount, to teach us how to live, yet he couldn't spend even ten minutes to reveal to teach about the trinity to Jews who never heard of it, even telling a Samaritan that her people don't know what they worship, but that we Jews know what we worship - even though the Jews didn't know anything about a trinity.
Well, if logic and reason is an appropriate tool for discerning truth from error, this argument matters:
1. There is only 1 Most High God.
2. The Father is the Most High God.
3. Jesus is not the Father.
4. Therefore, Jesus is not the Most High God.
The argument is valid and sound.
Modalists can reject premise 3.
But what premise can Trinitarians reject?
Contradictions are falsehoods. God doesn't want us believing in falsehoods:)
Respectfully, brothers, both Scripture and logic are against this teaching.
Sorry, it may be valid and sound, but it would ONLY be a true argument if #2 said, "ONLY the Father is the Most High God." Since Jesus is referred to as the Yahweh of the Old Testament, worshiped as God, and called, "God", we have to assume He IS the Most High God as well as the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Think of your argument, if you were to draw it out, as a large circle titled "The Most High God". Within that circle, you include the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as separate small circles. All three are the Most High God. It's like John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." On the surface, this would mean the Son is NOT the only true God. But this is why the Trinity is the only consistent explanation for all of Scripture, because the Father IS the only true God, but so is the Son and the Holy Spirit. You'd have to be a polytheist to say otherwise.
@@biblicalworldview1 Jesus is NEVER referred to as Yahweh of the Old Testament, you don't know what truth is.
@@djparsons7363 Sure. I can think of two specifically.
1. John 12:37-41 v. 41 says, "These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him." NKJV
So where is John quoting here, when he says Isaiah saw Jesus' glory? It's Isaiah 6, when Isaiah saw Yahweh. You can compare them and read it for yourself.
2. Hebrews 1:10-12, where right before the Father calls the Son, "God", it quotes about Jesus in Psalm 102:25-27, referring to Yahweh once again.
Jesus is worshiped by God by his disciples and others without any correction. Jesus is called God by Paul and other disciples. Jesus is referred to as the "Word made flesh", the Word who is God in John 1:1-2.
That's just a tiny sample. The Bible cannot be more clear that Jesus is God incarnate, and denying it is denying Jesus.
@@biblicalworldview1 Isaiah spoke of the people not putting faith in Jehovah despite all the signs he performed. John is applying Isaiah's words to the way the people reacted to Jesus and the signs he performed. The glory Isaiah saw was Jehovah's, not Jesus'.
Why does Hebrews 1:10-12 quote Psalm 102:25-27 and apply it to the Son, when the psalm says that it is addressed to God? Because the Son is the one THROUGH WHOM God performed the creative works there described by the psalmist. (See Colossians 1:15, 16; Proverbs 8:22, 27-30.)
It should be observed in Hebrews 1:5b that a quotation is made from 2 Samuel 7:14 and applied to the Son of God. Although that text had its first application to Solomon, the later application of it to Jesus Christ does not mean that Solomon and Jesus are the same. Jesus is “greater than Solomon” and carries out a work foreshadowed by Solomon.-Luke 11:31.
John 1:1 is not an accurate rendering in the KJV, many other Bible translators DO NOT AGREE with the Word being God.
Five German Bible translators use the term “a god” in that verse. At least 13 others have used expressions such as “of divine kind” or “godlike kind.” These renderings agree with other parts of the Bible to show that, yes, Jesus in heaven is a god in the sense of being divine. But Jehovah and Jesus are NOT THE SAME BEING, the same God.-John 14:28; 20:17.
With the KJV rendering of John 1:1 being opposed by so many other Bible translators you cannot be dogmatic that the KJV is the absolute truth, it is full of inaccuracies.
@@djparsons7363 I don't generally use the KJV, so I'm not sure why you are taking issue with it. The same translation of these verses is found in every modern English translation. Although the KJV is certainly a much better translation than the NWT, because it doesn't add words not found in the Greek to support aberrant theological beliefs. I go by what the Greek says. The Isaiah quote is related to John 12:41 where it says, "Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him" (ESV), regardless of the translation, they ALL say that Isaiah SAW Jesus' glory and spoke of him. Please consider this and don't just dismiss it.
I grew up in a religious group that denied the Trinity and taught it as polytheism and a doctrine of demons. I denied the Trinity until I really looked into what the Bible taught about God separated from my prior beliefs.
Hebrews 1:10-12 is directly talking about the Son as Creator God Himself and calling him "Yahweh" relating Him to the same Yahweh Psalm 102:25-27 is talking about, because it quotes it verbatim.
No good Bible translator adds words to the Greek text to make it say something else. There is one God, not Jehovah God and demigods. I wouldn't compare 13 bad translators to thousands of good ones and say that somehow refutes the good ones. Who are the German translators you speak of?
Would you agree that God doesn't share His glory with any other, for He is a jealous God?
Evidence in Acts shows they didn’t baptize by enunciating Matt 28:19. They used Jesus’ name.
18:58
Why take away the truth we find in those words? Not fair IMO
You guys should have stuck with modalism. You would have avoided so much paradoxical reasoning
Modalism doesn’t explain the biblical data. When Jesus was baptized how could the Father appear as a voice from the heavens and the Holy Spirit appear as a dove? Matthew 3:16-17. Modalism doesn’t account for bilocation.
@@ianmartinesqsounds like you have more than one deity
@@TheContrarian32 Not at all. God the Son, the Memra, is an emanation of God. Where was God when he was on the mercy seat? Was no one running the universe? Surely not. As an emanation of God the Father, the Word and the Spirit of God can appear on earth while God the father remains enthroned in heaven. There are two rules of doping out the Trinity. You can’t split the being or “essences” and you can’t collapse the loci of thought, ie confuse the persons. God can have emanations and those emanations can even have a perspective and thought process and there not be more than one God.
@@ianmartinesq Trinitarians misrepresent the monarchian proposing that we teach a sequential modalism ( That is when he is Father he cannot be Son, and that God must change from one mode to another). THIS is all falsehood. There is even no evidence that the Monarchian teachers of Old ( Sabellius, Praxeaus etc) and the Oneness teachers of Today. DAVID Bernard, STEVEN Ritchie etc teach a sequential modalism. We believe God is Omnipresent, and he can be Father and Son at the same time. JUST as Israel had the presence of God as the pillar of cloud and fire in their camp and the same time as God reigning in his throne in heaven. The Baptism issue is easily settled with an understanding of the omnipresence of God. I challenge any Trinitarian to provide any first source historical quote that the Modalist of yesterday and today teach a sequential modalism.
@@samuellundin5328 can you clearly and distinctly distinguish your position from what you term the Trinitarian position? But I think you mean the Athanasian position. But before I discuss misrepresentations or misunderstandings or whatever, I would first like to be clear on what you say your position is.
Every time I hear someone try to explain the 3 in 1 trinity I get a huge headache. It just absolutely makes zero sense that Jesus speaks to himself in the Bible.
What your thinking of is modalism. Jesus is not the same person as the Father but fully shares the same essence as the Father and the Holy Spirit.
@@wallysmet5076 Well that statement explains your heart. Your reaction speaks volumes. I suggest you learn to follow Jesus Christ and reserve your judgement for Him that has power to judge.
The Trinity was one of the foretold twisted doctrines that the apostates would bring in. A twisted doctrine can never be comprehended with logical minds.
(Acts 20:30) and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.
When the apostate Roman Church brought this teaching in, all members had to believe it. It any dared to question it or even check a Bible (none available), a bonfire awaited such one.
Now we have Bibles to check. Thence come in the excuses. They are one God but different persons and such. Make absolutely no sense either way.
And this is why I'm an atheist, I hate intellectual dishonesty and the mental gymnastics it takes to create pseudo intelectual apologetics for religious claims.
The concept of trinity cannot make you an atheist. You are an atheist if you believe there is no God regardless of the eschatology. And if we will be intellectually honest, you know that is correct. God bless
28:28 Dr. Sanders says, "If Trinity isn't from Scripture, we don't want it." Roman Catholic "Hypostatic Union" trinity is not in the Scripture. The "Prosopic Union" trinity of Theodoret is in the New Testament. Please search "Counter-statements to Cyril's 12 Anathemas".
24:48 - Huge problem, he is confusing the idea that "person" is a property of "being", which logically means that while "God" possesses those "divine attributes", yet NONE of the "persons" can possess those attributes.
Trinity makes no sense. God is one and singular.
Correct. God is one. This is basic Trinitarian theology.
@@Mic1904 ONE WHAT?
You make NO Sense, whatsoever.
@@raygsbrelcik5578God is one God
Humans try to put God into our realm and use human concepts to attribute Him with such as unitarianism. If God is superior in all ways, then multi-personal is the way to go
There is a lot about God that makes no sense. God does not need to fall within the perameters of human understanding to be God.
Agreed.
So, who coined the word trinitas or trinity and who formulated the doctrine of the trinity?
If it needs an hour to explain a bible teaching .. something is wrong.
Especially one as important as the nature of God! He has waay too many clear concise scriptures talking about Himself in the Hebrew bible to fail to mention this one important part.
Occam’s razor fallacy says otherwise.
It’s not only the word “Trinity” which is not in Scripture. The concept that God is three persons in one being is completely absent from Scripture. In order to come up with the Trinity, you have to take a verse from here and a verse from there and put them together to make a theory. The problem is that no New Testament writer ever talked about this idea. There are only verses that seem to hint at it. That is not nearly enough to consider something a Scriptural doctrine, much less central to biblical faith! Just stick with biblical terms and you won’t end up with man’s teaching. Remember, Jesus told Peter that it was not flesh and blood that revealed who he is, but the Father in heaven. And what did the Father reveal? That Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God (see Matthew 16).
You are absolutely wrong. You do not know Scripture!
I agree with the analogies being imperfect, but I think the 3 in 1 apple book I had as a child really helped me conceptualize God, so they have their place, I think.
ONE GOD FATHER have his word - he create everything with his word and since he is almighty his word can become anything so it can become flesh - Son living word of God-I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God and God have his holy Spirit
At 29 minutes the guest says that all church fathers say that the trinity is straight from the Bible. Is this really the case?
"When one does speak of unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say the last quadrant of the 4th century ... Herein lies the difficulty. On the one hand, it was the dogmatic formula "one God in Three Persons" that would henceforth for more than 15 centuries structure and guide the Trinitarian essence of the Christian message ... On the other hand, the formula itself does not reflect the immediate consciousness of the period of origins; it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development." - New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p.295
"The trinity of God is defined by the church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief. The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneously applied to God by some theologians." - Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, 1965 p. 899.
"This does not mean however, that we consider the traditional Scripture proof text method as mandatory or even possible. In the sense of definition the doctrive of Trinity is stated nowhere in Scripture." - The Encyclopedia of the Lutheran Church, 1965, vol. III, p. 2414
What a gross twisting of quotes. All these say is the obvious, that the word and definition of trinity are not explicitly stated in scripture. What the guest said is that all the fathers used scripture to support the trinity, and that the trinity IS foundationally based in scripture. This is most certainly true. How dare you have the arrogance to think the God would let his church commit complete and total blasphemy for 2000 years.
Trinity seems to be trending and continues to confuse: so here’s an analogy by way of explanation. Water is H20. Ice is H20. Steam is H20. None of these have the same form but all share the same compound. Father, Son & Holy Ghost. None share the same form but all are God.
Uh no. Bad analogy. No one should use analogies or metaphors to explain the Trinity. They all far apart.
That sounds more like a modalism approach. Different modes, instead of different persons, with that comparison.
Can the same molecule of water be in THREE DIFFERENT PLACES at the same time ??!
Oh, so you want to use Physics when convenient and ignore Physics when convenient.
LOL
@@sanjeevgig8918 your ignorance is overwhelming: God is Spirit not molecules : it a bad analogy and you are only debunking a bad analogy ! LOL 😆
@@davidjanbaz7728 AND you have NO EVIDENCE. ONLY CLAIMS and more CLAIMS ... like your previous 25 idiotic replies to me.
HA HA HA HA
Silliness.
it's called idolatry and you know nothing about it! Leave it to the professionals!
More mental gymnastics from Christians, The trinity doctrine was concocted by the church fathers just think which of the previous prophets worshipped a triune God answer - NONE
What about Isaiah?
“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
Isaiah 9:6 ESV
This verse at least reveals that Isaiah prophesied that “Mighty God” would be a child given.
Sean, a great conversation. I wish you brought up Triunity Vs Trinity. That seems to be a term thrown around in Christian circles and I believe it's a different understanding of scripture.
No, different terms, same meaning.
I say Trinity as Holy Trinity, where there are two divine and one human, but all holy. I guess a divine Trinity would be Triunity, meaning one nature, not one purpose alone.
@@simonskinner1450 I know of no other (especially theologian who makes that distinction.
@@jeffdowns1038 It was admitted that the OT, that the Jews lived by, did not express a Holy Trinity. The OT did however say a man would be raised from his people under the law as the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18, this man was not expected to be God, and only had the presence of God in him by baptism. I was baptised CofE but the NT never taught me Jesus could ever do miracles with the Spirit of God in him, he impersonated his Father.
@@simonskinner1450 Friend, what you say is interesting and I disagree. But, you have changed the subject. You said, I wish you brought up Triunity Vs Trinity. That seems to be a term thrown around in Christian circles and I believe it's a different understanding of scripture.
I'm asking, what theologians have you read that make the distinction you think is there. I'm saying the words are used, in Christians circles, interchangeably.
I will admit before I comment that I did not listen to this whole video. The reason is I picked up pretty quickly that this was more of a philosophical conversation than a scriptural conversation which I was disappointed in. I am apostolic. So we are oneness believers. We believe that Jesus was God, fully revealed to man kind. Fully God and Fully man. I like to say STRICT monotheism. All that to say I have a few questions I would like to offer up about the trinity that I have yet to have answered from scripture. First- Which of these persons of the God head is the Father that Jesus refers to when He speaks and prays? Because Like 1:35 and Matthew 1:18 say the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. So is the Holy Spirit the Father?
My next question: What does Jesus mean when He says in John 10:30 when he said "I and my Father are one" I've heard people say it's like how a husband and wife are one. As in one in Unity. But that wouldn't make since taking into account John 14:8-11. Philip asks to see the Father and Jesus says'If you've seen me you've seen the father". So unless if I've seen you I've seen your wife also.
And finally- Colossians 2:8-10. How can the fullness of the Godhead (AKA the essence of who God is) dwell in Jesus Christ? Wouldn't it just be part of the God head?
I ask these in the hopes that they would make you think and consider looking more into Apostolic Oneness theology. We believe that the Holy God Yahweh of the Old Testament exists as only ONE spirit. And that ONE spirit was robed in flesh- fully God and Fully Man as Jesus Christ.
Hi, Mikaela.
I would like to answer your questions with respect. If I misunderstand a question, please feel free to correct or clarify. First, can we agree that God is not like human beings and there are aspects to God that, while not contradictory, can exceed our capabilities of fully understanding? God is the Creator and not the Creation. If we can start with the fact that God cannot contain logical contradictions (like a square circle), but still will have aspects to Him that we can't understand, we're in a good, humble place and escape the danger of putting God in a box that our minds can contain.
I think we will also agree that the Bible is God's revelation of Himself to us and is our ultimate guide for who He is.
Also, I am gratified to know that you do not deny the deity of Christ! I was once a modalist
1) Q: Which of these persons of the God head is the Father that Jesus refers to when He speaks and prays? Because Luke 1:35 and Matthew 1:18 say the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. So is the Holy Spirit the Father?
A: Jesus prays to the Father. I think you take a modalist perspective, that God is one in being and one in person. Is that correct? So He changes forms or reveals/manifests Himself as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Luke 1:35 says, "And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God." This verse seems to actually emphasize the different 'persons' of the Trinity. Otherwise Jesus' spirit would be overshadowing Himself?
2) Q: What does Jesus mean when He says in John 10:30 when he said "I and my Father are one"
A: The Trinity teaches that there is only one God, and so the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the one, true God. Human analogies don't work with God all the time, because human beings are one in being and one in person, unlike God. God isn't like us. We are like Him in some respects (made in His image). For John 14:8-11, you have to read the whole passage where Jesus explains what he means by "You have seen the Father", because Jesus and the Father are the one, true God, so when you have seen one, you have seen the other. This isn't saying they are the same person, but as Jesus says, "I am in the Father and the Father is in me."
3) Q: Colossians 2:8-10. How can the fullness of the Godhead (AKA the essence of who God is) dwell in Jesus Christ? Wouldn't it just be part of the God head?
A: I mean this respectfully, but I don't think you understand the Trinity doctrine well enough. God is not divided, like a triangle or an egg, into parts. God is like nothing else in all Creation. He alone is God. There is ONE being, God, who cannot be divided into parts.
Oneness cannot account for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simultaneously existing and personally relating to one another.
-Kris
@@biblicalworldview1
So you believe the Spirit in Jesus is not the Holy Spirit? Do you not believe you have received the Spirit of the Son? Because the scriptures say that. Or the Spirit of Christ?
The scriptures also say you should have received that? So how many spirits does one receive when they get saved if the Holy Spirit is not the Spirit of the Son or Christ?
You must believe God was manifest in the flesh, would not every Jew understand that as the Eternal only God the Father in the flesh? And not the eternal only second person son spirit coming in the flesh? When Jesus says if you see him you see the Father, isn't he clarifying that it is indeed the Father who is in the flesh? Are you not adding to the scriptures?
You quoted the part the Lord says I am in the Father and the Father is in me, but can you honestly say you understand the meaning in terms of the trinity? The Lord in context was speaking about who he really is and he was saying that his true identity is God who dwells in him as the Father or Spirit and his body which is outside is the Father's body. The Lord sees his Body as himself not only his Spirit being him, this is why he says things like eat my flesh and drink my blood, because his Body is God who is Spirit made flesh. You see how it all comes together?
I don't believe in the Pope's doctrine of the trinity. Whosever confesses Jesus is the Son of God is saved, if the Son of God is a second person the Pope is also saved. But if the Son of God is the Father in the flesh, perhaps not? May God judge, or should I say the Lord Jesus Christ the Almighty.
@@biblicalworldview1 Hi Friend. I actually wonder if you understand the trinity. Yes we are starting in the same place with your first two assumptions though I wouldnt call myself a modelist. I think we also would both agree that what we are trying to do is understand an infinate God with our finate minds. And so I must say I don't think I made this clear. Modelist works but I don't think it quite allows for the full understanding of my faith which is why I prefer to use strict numerical oneness beliver. The Orthodox trinitarian view is God in three persons- so God the Father God the Son God the Holy Ghost BUT the Father is not the son is not the Holy Ghost is not the Father. you may see the triangle with the Titles of the Godhead in the corners. That is my understanding of the Trinity and that is what I am arguing against. I am specifically pointing at the "Is nots" in my questions. So if the Father IS NOT the Holy Ghost then why was it the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit who overshadowed Mary. Would that not make the Father and the Holy Ghost the same 'person'. And if Jesus is not the Father then why would He say 'If you've seen me you've seen the Father'. If they are only one in Unity then my question would be "If youve seen me have you seen my husband?' because we are one in Unity.
I look at scripture starting in Genesis and through the Jewish lense of the Old Testament recognizing that God made it so clear that He is only one and so unwilling to compromise what Jesus Himself said is the greatest commandment I cannot divide God into 'persons' for the sake of my own understanding. God is the Father. God is the Son. God is the Holy Ghost. God is the Great I Am. God is the Cloud by Day and the Fire By night. God is the alpha. God is the omega. God is the Rose of Sharon. God is the prince of Peace. And Jesus was That God Manifested in the flesh. The Fullness of The Godhead. The fullness and complete essence of God was born as a man, lived as a man and died as a Lamb and complete sacrifice for the sins of this world.
I think the language in the bible is confusing because we are all finate humans trying to articulate a infinate God but this is the best that I can articulate it in a UA-cam comment! Haha!
@@mikaeladonegan2430 Amen sister!
To answer your question, John 10:30 is easily explained with another Scripture
(John 10:30) I and the Father are one.”
(John 17:20-22) “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, SO THAT THEY MAY ALL BE ONE, JUST AS YOU, FATHER, ARE IN UNION WITH ME AND I AM IN UNION WITH YOU, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE IN UNION WITH US, so that the world may believe that you sent me. I have given them the glory that you have given me, IN ORDER THAT THEY MAY BE ONE JUST AS WE ARE ONE.
BEING ONE MEANS BEING IN AGREEMENT, UNITED IN A COMMON PURPOSE.
(John 14:9) Whoever has seen me has seen the Father also. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Jesus reflected his Father's personality so perfectly it was AS IF seeing Jesus would be like seeing the Father.
Jesus came to earth as the exact equal of Adam before he sinned, a perfect man, 100% human but sinless. He was not a God-man, that would not have been a proper redeeming sacrifice, he had to be Adam's equal.
Lol.
Both of you struggled to explain explicitly what the doctrine is, because you know you will run into contradiction doing it explicitly, but you believe that one needs to believe that to be saved?? Lol
It made perfect sense to me
Jesus never once said he was God. In fact he said the opposite often. Jesus wasn't praying to himself!
So sad. Did you even listen to the post!! So so sad. So so so much you need to learn about being a disciple of wisdom as the Bereans were. Humility is the key to understanding.
@@paulenzor6993 So since I'm right and you can't say anything against that you just say so so sad since it doesn't agree with your brainwashing. How pathetic! I assume you also worship Paul using Jesus' name in vain.
John 8:58 Jesus calls himself the I AM and the Jewish crowd picks up stones to stone him, doing exactly what the OT commands them to do to someone who claims to be God. That crowd knew EXACTLY what he was saying, and they'd disagree with your statement.
Simply not true. The eyewitness testimony presented in the gospels is clear about that. Jesus made clear claims that he is the God of Israel, and his followers understood this, and his enemies understood this.
@@BM-si2ei Your welcome to believe that Pagan nonsense and ignore the loafs of evidence to the contrary if you want.
I am amazed that two educated men thinks that the Trinity of the Church has anything to do with the God of Israel.
Then be amazed.
Is Fred's office a book closet? haha Thank you for a great teaching video.
same lol
It seems the best way to answer “does someone need to believe in the Trinity to be saved”, is in it’s salvivic context. Jesus says “ whoever does not honor. The son does not honor the father who sent him.“ or what Paul gets to in 2 Corinthians 5, “All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ…” christ is not acting independently apart from the father, nor is the father acting independently of the son. So what about the spirit“ Paul says, in first Corinthians,“ no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the spirit.“
So, can someone be saved apart from the doctrine of the trinity “no”, but, can someone be saved without a full understanding of how the trinity functions, and operates to its exact specifications as creator/preserver, justifier, and sanctifier, yes.