Problems in the Wheel of time episodes so far. . .
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- Опубліковано 23 лис 2021
- With three episodes into the wheel of time TV series there are some big changes that effect the story.
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It's important that the Two Rivers region is incredibly isolated. The blood of Manetheren and the racial makeup of the people there are effected by this but there's a lot more to it than that. This place was so closed off that later in the books the characters are surprised and offended to learn that their home is regarded as part of Andor, and this effects a lot of interactions in later books as well. They haven't seen a taxman or soldier for generations. The fact that it took Moraine and anyone else so long to find the Dragon Reborn, and allowed him to grow up as a normal person rather than as some Aes Sedai puppet or murdered in his childhood, is due to this isolation as well. The Two Rivers rarely sees any visitors except for a few traders and is largely cut off from the world. There's more to it than this but that leads to more spoilers etc. I just thought Shad was a little off on how he was talking about the connection the Two Rivers had to the outside world and I felt the isolation proved crucial to the story in the books.
Very insightful point. Rand & friends were shaped by their upbringing and wholesome values. Made them into brave dutiful & moral people able to resist corruption and temptation and glory
Them being so isolated also resulted in them having a lot of girls that can learn to channel, and this TREND not just 2 strong women but a TREND of strong women channelers, is what draws certain characters there that are VITAL to things not going terribly wrong.
If it's just 2 random women that happen to be pretty strong there's no particular reason to go there if it's otherwise a totally normal super diverse location.
@@haku8135 this point in particular! I am so angry about this show. It was a total bait and switch. They told us they loved WoT and did this! Honestly I only actually watched up until they entered the inn in the first episode and shut it off. I couldn't take it. This is heresy
He forgot how isolated it was by later events likely
@@ginger-kat I would have preferred they were honest in the beginning but they said they LOVED the books. Like wtf
I fully agree by even insinuating that women can be the dragon reborn breaks the whole concept of the book series. We might aswell call it another show thats how key of change it is.
I agree, this sound just like "Generic Fantasy Series", just like how Netflix recently came out with "Generic Space Bounty Hunter Show". Neither one comes close to the greatness of the originals.
Non book reader but why is female dragon such a major change.
@@blugaledoh2669 Because the entire premise of the wheel and the one power is based upon gender. Women and men channel differently in the wheel of time. They have different affinities as well, going on biological differences between men and women. For instance, the most powerful female channeler would never be as powerful as the most powerful male channeler, but the most dexterous female channeler would always be more dexterous than the most dexterous male channeler. This goes along with the aspect of women being more common channelers than men are.
However, the biggest difference is that in the books, which this is true in the show too, is that men go insane when they use the one power due to the dark one corrupting the male half of the one power. So, no one actually wants the Dragon reborn because it's most likely that in the process of defeating the dark one, he would go insane and destroy the planet after. It's a huge fear throughout the entire series.
So, with this one change, they literally change the world completely. I still like it, but this show is becoming less and less the wheel of time, which is completely based on binary relationships between men and women.
They will make Rand transgender. He was a man in a woman's body all along, or the reverse, but because (s)he's OBVIOUSLY actually a MA'AM, (s)he'll channel Saidin instead of Saidar.
@@stiofarnog definitely don't think they'll do that
"It's an outdated 90s idea..."
"BIOLOGY!??!?"
LMFAO yes! This is the world we live in now.
As someone who is completely new to The Wheel of Time after learning that the first scene from the Amazon series is completely different from the books I went and listened to the first audiobook, the part at the start of the series with the dragon, the guy clad in black and the volcano.
After I was done, I was like "Holy crap!!!", that's one hell of an opening to the story, pretty intruging and emotionally charged, who in their right mind would change this and replace it with a lame chase scene!? WHY!?
An accountant… I imagine this show is expensive already… and that first scene in the books would be insanely costly to do in real life for maybe a 5-10 min into. They could have found a way to animate it as a cool intro. Overall the show is boring, pushing modern day woke politics into its casting choices and looks likes CW level Production.
@@BENR8108 Do remember this is Amazon we are talking about.
@@AscendantStoic and Bezos did go through a nasty expensive divorce recently; the man needs to save as much money wherever he can!
@@BENR8108 🤣🤣🤣
Well, there hav been an attempt of this series before, which made that first scene into the first episode. That show failed spectacularly, so i guess they felt forced to do something different
There's also the fact that Sadin and Sadar are completely different powers based of your gender. Men could generally use more power but women could use more threads. There are also different affinities for the two powers too. Men were better at fire and earth while women were better with air and water. There was also the fact that only women could start a circle to buff their power. Having the dragon be male or female means that the writers are ignoring the books at best or have not read the books at all at worst.
Them allowing a male or female dragon doesn’t really effect the power system itself I’m surprised at people suggesting this.
@@SolitaryLark it does big time. A female cannot be the dragon. If women could be the dragon, then why aren't they hunting down women channelers?
@@Heath86 they don't believe anyone to actually be the dragon, otherwise they wouldn't gentle them. once the aes sedai are convinced the dragon is reborn they no longer want to gentle or kill him in the books. but they are hunting male channellers because they will cause extreme destruction and death when they go mad.
@@uiiiiitoll4878 the main thing is that the prophecy of the Dragon is not just “the Dragon” will be reborn. It will be “The Dragon” being reborn. As in The original Dragon come again. The man who saved the world and in doing so doomed it. And he will
Be reborn in mankind’s fire time of need to save the world and break it again.
It is not a title, it’s literally the Lord of the Morning born again. The Kinslayer himself. The man who went mad with the taint, was temporarily healed of the insanity only to break and go insane under the weight of his actions, on top of the insanity from the taint.
Did you mention the skinny innkeeper? It was a huge troupe in the books. Skinny innkeepers are evil, fat innkeepers we're good. In this episode they should us Egwene's father was a bad innkeeper. He's probably the one that brought the trollocks in this version.
Lol
Oh man. I totally forgot about that. It's based on the old saying, "you never trust a thin chef."
Sanderson wrote this about Perrin's wife on Reddit:
“Biggest thing he(Rafe) and I disagreed on was Perrin's wife. I realize that there is a good opportunity here for Perrin to be shown with rage issues, and to be afraid of the potential beast inside of him. I liked that idea, but didn't like it being a wife for multiple reasons. First off, it feels a lot like the disposable wife trope (AKA Woman in the Fridge.) Beyond that, I think the trauma of having killed your wife is so huge, the story this is telling can't realistically deal with it in a way that is responsible. Perrin killing his wife then going off on an adventure really bothers me, even still. I have faith that the writers won't treat it lightly, but still. That kind of trauma, dealt with realistically and responsibly, is really difficult for an adventure series to deal with."
He also said he suggested killing Luhhan instead
Sanderson kinda gets it but he didn't fight this hard enough and in the reddit thread he eventually approves anyway.
It deeply screws with Perrin's character that killing someone as close to him as HIS WIFE doesn't send him into a year long deep depression. Show-Perrin treats the death as if his dog got run over by a car, sad but barely an inconvenience. Book-Perrin had serious moral turmoil when he killed strangers he didn't really know. Complete misunderstanding of Perrin is going on here and I can understand why, Sanderson and especially the show creative team weren't with these characters from the beginning like Robert Jordan was.
Thanks for sharing. My thoughts are the same on Perrin being a wife & baby murderer. One doesn’t recover from that easily or if ever at all!
Ahhh Sanderson was involved, I was wondering why Shad was defending this garbage.
What adventure? He went away because he believed Moiraine. What part of the show so far led you to believe that Perrin want to leave TR to seek adventure?
I feel like shad is unaware of how little these production studios value the integrity of their source material.
Nothing is sacred in the age of the social engineer.
Right about that.
I'm a fan of the lore of this series and frankly I believe a direct telling of the story is what we need now. From a show runner's pov I get the desire to skirt around certain subjects because it may garner backlash but the ultimate payoff where every character, regardless of race or gender, is able to shine in their own right via their own merit is so much more wholesome than pandering.
But when the belief is that gender is fluid or that it's on a spectrum, dividing gender into 2 distinct categories is problematic (This isn't my belief. I think there are only 2 genders. I just think the showrunner's don't want to offend trans people)
I just think the showrunners are afraid of offending trans people (I responded to you earlier with a lengthier reply, but I think my comment got deleted)
It has been confirmed that Saidin and Saidar are both still around and seperate things, it was covered in one of the animated lore episodes
@@theovertrogue9525 cool
Ya know this conversation reminds me a lot of Thanksgiving dinner with the family. So many opinions based on their own facts and merit. HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!
Men sacrificed themselves? In the opening narration Moiraine says: "[men] believed they could cage darkness itself. The arrogance. When they failed, the seas boiled [...] and the women [...] were left to pick up the pieces." I reads like something out of a misandrist's wet dream (which is a bit odd, because she's blue, not a red man-hunter). That paints men as as having played with fire and doomed the world like the Magisters from Dragon Age. But that sounds like it refers to when the darkness was first unleashed, not when it was locked. Then why does she say "men"? Were only men involved with that? It's still grossly generalising, as I assume SOME men did that and SOME men (not necessarily the same) sacrificed themselves later, not ALL men in the world simultaneously.
Ironically, it was a woman who initially found the Dark One's prison.
The male Aes Sedai wanted to try and seal the prison. The female Aes Sedai wanted to build a pair of giant weapons and hit the Dark One really hard. Neither option were guaranteed to work, and, as it turns out, neither would have worked.
So Lews Therin and his 100 companions (all men) went to try and seal the prison, partially succeeding. Saidin was tainted, and male Aes Sedai started going insane (IIRC, the 100 companions all went insane immediately, but I'm not sure), and then they broke the world.
A group of men and women freed the darkness and that started a war with the Dark One, then the Dragon, and I think 13 men decided to try and close the Dark One, while the women decided to not help and focus on defending the world from the Dark One. Because of that the Dark One tainted the male part and makes them go crazy immediately and start the breaking of the world, and then other men started going crazy because of the taint until the world went from a futuristic setting to a medieval one.
@@DaviHorner
The Dark One was never "freed," he was just able to touch the world and influence it, and it took decades for the War of Power to begin.
It was his 100 companions, not 13. And the women didn't want to help because they thought it was folly and preferred to try and use their giant bonks, which Lews Therin deemed riskier (since it would mean having to try and reclaim a specific city from the Shadow).
@@KaNoMikoProductions Thanks, it's been a few years since a read the book.
What's funny is that they use the term caged, because the female Channellers before the Breaking wanted to also cage the Dark One, it's just that whereas the men wanted to repair the prison of the Dark One, the women wanted to attempt to separate the prison of the Dark One from reality.
Idk which is more arrogant, but I doubt their plan would have worked either, and if they had attempted it it would have been the female side of the One Power that was tainted.
1:00:00 Like I said in the last video, I don't really care that the Two Rivers folk are darker than Rand. That makes sense. They're not Sea Folk or Tairen black, but Italian or Spanish -esque seems perfectly reasonable to me. My major complaint was the lack of homogeniety. Rand's colouring is supposed to make him stand out. Kari al'Thor's colouring is what made her clearly an outlander. And it actually ties into the prophecies when it says something about him being of the blood but not raised by the blood. Rand should be clearly different than the rest of the two rivers folk, and by having such a diverse representation of appearances in Emond's Field that aspect of his "otherness" is heavily undermined.
Yes, a big part is that he is taller, fairer skinned, and red hair really sets him apart from all the rest of the Two Rivers folk. I am assuming that the show runners want the viewers to be surprised on who becomes the Dragon. I think it is a dumb, unnecessary change.
It's worth noting that unless people think Rand is a complete moron, the people in the two rivers would have to be similar in skin tone to Rand. Tam is from the two-rivers and is his father and Rand thinks he is from the two-rivers.
Even Elida only comments that he is paler than two-rivers people when she sees his untanned skin.
The casting of the two-rivers in the series is pure, unadulterated wokeness. It is stupid, tedious and actually damages the story.
55:04 Shad: "In Episode 3 you see a dead Aiel."
Oz: "That wasn't the tribe that helps the people?"
Shad: "No, those are the Tinkers, the Atha'an Miere."
Atha'an Miere are the Sea Folk. The Tinkers are Tuatha'an. The terms are of course etymologically similar, and these peoples have similar philosophies (Water Way for the Sea Folk, Way of the Leaf for the Tinkers) so it's an understandable slip of tongue.
But yes, the Tuatha'an are clearly not Aiel. They definitely have no relation to the Aiel. At all. Such a thing would be inconceivable.
:D
Thanks for the correction ^_^
Absolutely none. At all. Ever.
Two entirely juxtaposed ideologies and ways of life, there’s absolutely no way they could coexist on any level at any point in time, ever.
Yes they seem to walk two very different paths. There's no way they could have come from the same place.
It is a major issue for Rand in the early books that he may not be from the two-rivers. He doesn't react well to people either suggesting that he doesn't look like he is from the two-rivers (impossible in the series) and also the Tam may not be his father.
Do you expect to keep the deep family bond that people of 2 rivers have in the series, it is not like the youths from there had any major bond with their families?(I'M BEING SARCASTIC)
@@Raximus3000 You right of course. Spend time developing characters when we could instead turn Mat's father into a philandering asshat or his mother into a nasty drunk. That would indeed be silly! 😅 (also sarcasm!)
@@hooligan9794
Another wonderful change in a small place having people like that is beyond moronic, how can a place that is so small and has people so far between have a whore, a chronic drunker of any kind and any kind of stealing that does not immediately become the news of the day!!
Do they not know how a village socitey is?
Of course not, they cannot conceive an enviroment other than New York or LA. I will be very pissed if this thing gets more than one season!
@@Raximus3000 Don't get me started on their modernising of the language and the culture of the two-rivers 😡
Gone is the rural innocence of the boys, their uncomfortable prudishness around women, their basic chivalrous attitude (which costs Rand a lot at times). Nope, none of that, they are as you say modern LA young adults. Everyone is shagging and being sassy all the time....
Insufferable.
@@anomanderrake3593
Exactly which was why it was hard for them to leave, they were HAPPY!!! Which makes it even harder for them to leave, the series just gives them reasons to leave, it is as if having a loving family is smth bad!!
Netflix and Amazon really need to understand that "adaptation" means "making it fit to have the same story told through a different media". It doesn't mean "re-shaping according to my personal ideas": then again, if they don't hit their Diversity quota their investors won't put more money to make more crap. So I can't even blame them fully.
if we the people stop watching this watered downed politics, eventually they will stop it
Sad part is, I think the creators or whichever one was on the interview I read have no idea. Since a concern is people and the idea of a female dragon, he cites the justification of 'well maybe prophecies aren't accurate or translations, etc'. Not realizing the implications of how much better a female dragon is because she will not have the madness of Saidin's taint dogging her at every step of the way. Ah, there it is, showrunner Rafe Judkins on a Reddit AMA. I'll leave the quote for everyone's perusal. "The change we made was not just with the fact that a woman could be the Dragon, the core change we made was that people are NOT 100% convince that these 3000 year old prophecies are 100% accurate." I also find this amusing because if I recall the books correctly, a mentor of Siuan's and Moiranes (because he brings up Moiraine as not believing the prophecy 100%) Gitara Moroso? Foretold that HE IS COMING, born on the Dragonmount. Clearly showunners are not at all paying attention. 3000 years old? Please, she was still alive when Rand was born and prophesied it! How is that a 3000 year old prophecy! ARGH! As much as I would like to go with Shad and being charitable, best faith arguments, this is looking bad, and I haven't seen Eps 2 and 3. Great video guys, but I mayy have to adopt the Oz attitude until/unless the show proves me wrong.
The other thing is: in the world of WoT, souls are permanently gendered, which appears to be a known fact across the board, and so it would necessarily follow that Lew Therin Telamon would be reborn as a male. It's also not a disputable fact that LTT was a man, as: he killed his family after he went mad, he went mad because of the taint on Saidin and oh yeah there's loads of historical texts specifically referring to him as a man. The issue is that Rafe and the crew are treating the Karaetheon Cycle as the only materials that deal with the Dragon, when they aren't.
Could Brigette be a man?
@@ljc6181 no, and Gaidal Cain is never a good looking guy
The woman literally stood up in front of Siuan & Moraine (both as Accepted),
as well as the Amyrlin of that time, and then spoke that "foretelling"
~~~FELL OVER DEAD, AT THE EXACT MOMENT THAT RAND WAS BORN~~~
That Amyrlin was murdered shortly after, leaving Siuan and Moraine as the only 2 people who know the EXACT birth date & place of the Dragon.
Ironically, that prophecy also clearly referred to the Dragon as "HE" and not she or they
If it isn’t explained it just feels like “oh, they added diversity for diversity.” Which kills my suspension of disbelief. Because then I start looking for the “woke” and stop enjoying the show.
That just means your distaste for "woke" is the reason you don't like some media, regardless of whether that media is well done or not.
That makes you a "far right" "nazi".
@@EmarinPendaloan Would you like a remake of Lord of the Rings where everything is similar, but half the hobbits are black? Or they have Fredo be a transexual paraplegic hobbit in a wheelchair, male to female hobbit? Wouldn't that kind of interfere with your suspension of disbelief? Lol the political reimaginings are silly, someone turned off by that is reasonable and that doesn't mean someone is a simple minded critic. Especially when there's an original book series like WoT or LoTR.
@@EmarinPendaloan in this case some of the wokeness actually affects the story, ie: a woman dragon. It's especially egregious, because the story is already very diverse/PC. Jamming it down our throats in ways that is often unnecessary or detrimental to the story isn't good storytelling.
Binding gender to soul does literally zero narrative work for WoT. The only time Jordan was explicit about a soul being gendered was in an interview *after* WH came out. If this were important in any way to the books, then it would have come up in the books, almost certainly before Winter's Heart was released.
10:00 if i remember correctly, Saidin wasnt tainted cuz the 100 companions channeled so near the Dark One. Instead it was tainted as a counter stroke by the Dark One due to the "sealing" of the Bore. It greatly inhibitated the DOs ability to directly affect the Pattern. So the DO said "Fuck you" and hit Saidin, thus causing the 100 companions to go instantly insane cuz they were at ground zero when it happened.
It’s also the case that the women of that time declined to help and that is directly related to the problem with the seal causing it to weaken over time
@@mykeusgaming1510 It is arguable whether women helping would have resulted in a complete seal with no counterstroke or Saidar also being tainted.
@@mykeusgaming1510 The women not helping was not the issue. Even if they had helped, it would've failed without the True Power to shield Saidin and Saidar from the DO.
It also only went down that way because the female Aes Sedai at the time refused to help him.
I cannot WAIT for the woke to choke on that little detail.
@@imbored5951 That is not known and only speculation and in the same vein, we can only speculate that the DO would not have been able to lash out in counterstroke had the sealing of the Bore been assisted by the women, BUT on the balance of probabilities, it was a time-limited endeavour and with the female channelers assisting with Saidar, it is highly probable the Bore would have been sealed without the ensuing consequence.
by being "incolsive"....it does run the plot point that the Dragon Reborn return was feared because it would be a man who would be so powerful he could destroy the world, and at the same time all men would go insane, so its something to be feared. If they could be a woman, that fear wouldn't rational because there would be no threat about someone that powerful going insane.
"Consulted writer" is another word for "we gave him a big bag of cash so he would shut up"
It lends his name to marketing as well, like he approves of it.
They can also use Sanderson's name and his earned reputation as a shield when people are unhappy with the significant and lore-breaking changes.
Same with having Harriet "involved." Considering she edited the series (of books) I'd think she'd be pretty vocal about some of these changes. Unless she doesn't honor her HUSBAND'S memory. (IIRC, she's known for not having dated anyone since his passing, so...)
Well it’s already been confirmed for a second and third season, so you’ll have a lot to to rage and or praise about (and I’ll be there to listen).
That's so strange nowadays. I enjoy people picking shows apart more than watching the actual show. Especially if I already read the source material. (In this case only far ahead of the show, haven't finished it yet, ~4 books to go)
@@ChristmasLore Announcements like that are cheap and easy marketing. Just see how many times a new JJ Abrams-universe Star Trek IV has been announced, by official sources. One of these days it may actually happen. WOT S2 could easily just get quietly forgotten, if this first season really bombs.
@@RoryMitchell00 they are already filming season 2.
I have my problems with the show especially the dragon reborn being female, but damn I loved these books so much, I hope they finish it out
People who have a problem with the “fridging” trope often seem to be of the opinion that it’s an actual moral wrong to kill off a character without “proper development.”
I laughed so much of this comment...thanks.
Also the same people who tend to surround their antagonist with nameless 98% male goons that are gleefully slaughtered or destroyed as an afterthought by the female protagonist. The Black Widow prison scene for example.
I once ran a Star Wars ttrpg, wherein I spent three real years (6ish years in-game time) building up a relationship between one of the players and her best friend NPC. Only to have that friend killed by Anakin Skywalker while trying to cover the retreat of 'Younglings' during his fall to the dark side. I needed the players to have an emotional investment in Anakin's fall, so I needed to have him destroy something personal to them, and that is what I planted this character to be. Three years of building up that relationship just to sell that one moment. It was beautiful and had precisely the outcome I had hoped for.
The problem isn't that you're killing a character without proper development, it's that when you create a character with the sole purpose of killing them, then it shows a base level of non-caringness that makes it hard to get invested in any character. Either the author doesn't care about their characters (which usually makes them be written poorer), or the author only cares about the plot (which usually leaves the characters on the wayside)
Since the very naming of the trope, fridging is just a thinly veiled "I'm pissed this girl died, I'll call it sexism to secure my mediocre writing career"
In the television episode, Thom Merrilin implies all of the Westlands are racially diverse. Only outsiders like the Aiel can be identified by their looks. But genes for racial traits like skin colour will mix quickly without strong discrimination towards your own race when it comes to marriage. Europe and America have had both recent immigration and discrimination. It doesn't make sense for the Westlands to still have this diversity after thousands of years. Unless there is discrimination within communities. Which there is no sign of.
Yeh. Its a stupid idea to have an ancient interracial village supposedly thousands of years old as they would have interbred and racial differences would disappear. That is an infantile level of writing from the tv shows creators.
To be fair, in the books most poeple were culturally identified by Clothes and accent. Although there was some racial differences, sure.
@@otarev Some peoples like Andoran and Cairhienin look like the main characters (i.e. white but not blond) and have less racial descriptors because the point of view characters consider them "normal". But others like the Aiel, Domani, Ebou Dari, Taraboner, Saldaean, Sea Folk, Tairen etc. have descriptors specific to their ethnicity. Some characters like the Wise One Alarys and the royal house of Andor are specifically mentioned to deviate in hair color from the norm of their respective peoples.
the most toxic elements are not the people who want it to be as close to the books as possible no it’s the people saying if you don’t like the changes you are morally evil
Yea but I would say the most toxic are the people who go and ruin new viewers experience by saying this is shit. But clearly this is not a 1 star show. But many toxic book readers make it out to be and that averts new viewers away.
@@Kal_Al_Thor it is a shit show that’s not in question
@@animeproblem1070 ok so u the toxic guy here. It's not a shit show, the 1st 3 ep r like 7/10. How can u call it shit?
@@animeproblem1070 don't u see the effort and passion that went through this show. If u don't like the changes it's ok. Even I don't like some. But surely u can see that it's true to the books mostly. It can't be a copy of the books. That's y it's called an adaptation.
@@Kal_Al_Thor because it’s literally broken most of the world building of the books already making future plot lines already be broken for one thing the dragon reborn was foretold in every single prophecy almost to be a man who could draw upon saidin you know the power that curses people to go mad and that’s why people fear the coming of the dragon next is the fact that egwene is not and should not be ta’verrin it’s literally how she hid at several points in the book because being ta’verrin makes hiding basically impossible two updating the wheel of time for a modern audience like the creators have said disgusts me because the books have nothing wrong or vile about them and even if they did i would still say that updating them is absolutely wrong because you’re imposing your own modern reality on a fantasy world
Considering that I literally just read an article this morning by The Guardian (I think) with some of the cast members and writers where they state that they purposefully made the show more modern for a PC audience has made me even more doubtful that this series is going to improve with the episodes yet to be released.
The problem with the Two Rivers race thing is that is part of the later plot point with Lord Perrin and his handling of when refugees start moving in, the conservative set in their ways townspeople now have to deal with people who look different, dress different, and have different views on social morality. The only person who should look different racially is Rand. I wouldn't even care if they changed some racial dynamics by making the Aiel more African (though that has issues as their historical role as servants...) just to make Rand more "diverse." Just preserve the societal dynamics of the story.
I'm deliberately avoiding this show until after the major plot devices are explicitly laid out because, like your cohosts, I'm just done with people ruining things for politics.
Brandon shared his opinion and some of what he advised against on the WoT episodes 1-3 mega thread over at r/Fantasy. He's u/mistborn
A TL;DR for those not wanting to find it(i'd suggest you do though): not a fan of perins wife thing. He feels it's to grimdark and the show can't handle the trauma fully. He suggested he kill off his master instead, as he did like the idea to progress his story and being "scared of the beast inside him".
Advised against "dragon can be man or woman" due to story implications
Advised against the change to the father of Matt
So, he was against the main 3 complaints here. It's almost like he is a good writer or something?!
@@canebro1 or something lmao
And the fact that he was overridden on all of these shows that his involvement on the show means absolutely nothing. He was paid a lot of $, put to the side on all important decisions and told to shut up.
The Last Jedi treatment of Luke put on large to the entire story so far in the Wheel of Time. Where is the love of the story by the show runners? Where is the loyalty to the story? The changes are a hot garbage fire.
1. Entirely cut out the breaking of the world scenes with the first Dragon and Ishamael that really set the tone of the entire series.
2.The world building is gone with this rushed pace.
3. Two rivers is diverse? Ever been to a small village without much travel?
4. One of the best scenes in WOT of Rand trying to keep his father alive cut out for later at best.
5. The women's circle throwing ladies off a cliff? heh. They were the sensible ones according to the books.
6. Our fav wolf brother married and kills wife...wtf.
7. Entirely changed the character of Matt. Now he is a dour thief with a broken family instead of our prankster. With dagger he will be more gloomy then he is now? How would we even know his arch with this change.
8. Rand is too short.
9. Tom is missing from the two rivers and drastically changes story.
10. Lan is too short.
11. No scene with Bella not needing to be refreshed by the source.
12. No scenes with the three tavern having dreams before winternight of the fade.
13. No Padan Fain in Shadar Logoth at least in the current scenes shown.
14. No Mordeth in Shadar Logoth.
15. No fades driving the trollocs into Shadar Logoth.
16. No amazing escape running from Trollocs and Fade in Shadar Logoth.
17. No great escape to the river and jumping aboard the Spray with Bayle Domon Doman and fighting off Trollocs on the boat.
18. Out of place event with Logain at the start.
19. The dragon can only be a man according to lore as people are really afraid of male channelers and a female channeler makes no sense as the dragon.
20. No fever dream from Tam. This is not that exhaustive a list too and does not count all the other sjw changes.
21. No Flame and The Void training from Tam for Rand shown so far.
22. There are problems with these above changes and there are likely afew dozen other changes to boot.
This is not true to the books and not my wheel of the time. Was I surprised this would happen? No, in our current climate everything is a soap box to preach sjw religion and in order to do that WOT would need an entire rewrite to fit their sick faith.
Not to mention that the Women's Circle didn't include ALL women of a certain age. It was a select group, and one that Nynaeve was partially separate from (and beholden to). We also don't see the council. There's a slight implication when a couple of men are talking about what Moraine might be doing in the Two Rivers.
First episode should have been either two hours, or a two-parter (still two hours.) It would have done so much more to set up the entire show. There's room/time to explain things. The idea that maybe people are just fuzzy on the prophecy is an ok-ish explanation, except that Moraine definitely wouldn't be so fuzzy. She not only has access to relevant texts, but she was there when the Seer spoke of the Dragon being reborn. Her first task was to catalogue all the recently born MALE babies, which evolved into an 18-year hunt.
They've screwed her character over most of all. She's not just cold, she's borderline evil now. And without her interacting with Thom? It sure doesn't sound as if they actually want to adapt the entire series. Just with the changes made so far, the final battle in AMOL has changed completely.
@@Shr3dd3r2k8 Breaking of the world and Dragonmount pillar of light scene after Islmael taunts the dragon was an amazing start to the series. And it was cut for scenes that never happened in the books.
These showrunners are proud and their pride lets them walk over the actual story and treat it like trash to discard.
Padan Fain is super important!!! Is the dark ones hound who found the dragon reborn, and tracked HIM all through the first book.
PREACH
Love point number 5. Plus NO village council. The interplay between VC and WC is amazing, and the humbling moment later when the men realize that the WC probably really did control things...
The lore change I disliked the most was the motivation of the dark friend innkeeper (Dana) in episode 3. Every dark friend in the books-except one- was motivated by the possibility of immortality, not nihilism. The one dark friend who was different was made leader over all other darkfriends precisely because he wasn't motivated by selfish reasons like all the others; his goals more closely aligned with that of the Dark One: the destruction of the pattern (world).
SAME!
And even then, we didn't see the full development of his own alignment with this ideology until the very end of the series.
Yeah, I still remember how it's stated in the books that some darkfriends didn't really know what they where sign in up to. They joined because of selfish reasons and never expected to actually have to fight in the Last Battle. And I especially love how a lot of them do the evil stuff they do because of fear of being killed or worse.
Having them be this idealist ruins the fact that are supposed to be the servants of an EVIL being.
@@j.fragoso7451 It doesn't ruin the story that one darkfriend comes off as an idealist in her beliefs. Why does ONE darkfriend saying she is sick of the pain and suffering of the world and the dark one is going to end that wrong? Are you telling me someone isn't going to love the idea of a world with no pain and suffering? cough cough ever heard of religions? She joins the dark friends under a belief that someone told her. People do stupid things every day with false information. We know that the dark one wants to make the world with no freedom, but she doesn't know that. You the reader know the dark one is evil, but she doesn't. Her point of view doesn't work on those who read the books, but the non-book readers have no idea who the dark one is and what his end game goals are.
@@nashinplain Well, I would argue your last sentence is exactly the point- it is a poor introduction to the concept of dark friends. This is the audience's first interaction with them, and yet the individual in question gets to monologue on what sounds like a sympathetic cause. A world with no pain and suffering??? So the evil Trollocs and Myrdraal who are chasing you- that would slaughter anything and everything in their path- and whom this person has _clearly_ interacted with (because she mentions a Myrdraal in her monologue)- we are supposed to pause and believe that maybe for a second this is all just for the best? Yes, people do stupid things every day with false information, but if you are trying to argue that this individual was just the victim of a disinformation campaign, it just doesn't add up at even the most basic, instinctual level. It is not a believable conclusion for an otherwise intelligent and well-intentioned human being (which that individual was) to come to when confronted by terrifying creatures from childhood stories that are supposed to be the literal spawn of evil. Seriously, ask yourself, if you were approached by a freaking Myrdraal one afternoon- what persuasive argument is it going to make to convince you to _serve_ it and do things that you would otherwise find morally wrong? The only logical motivation for being a dark friend is for selfish reasons, not altruistic or idealistic- and I cannot imagine any scenario in which you could change that formula. People are annoyed, because they changed that formula, and it just isn't a believable change.
@@austincummins7712 man I don't think it's an unbelievable changed, but we can have our own opinions on that. She doesn't experience the horde of trollocs attacking her village ever. There haven't been trollocs down south for hundreds of year. Non-book readers have no idea about what the dark ones want, and what she said sounds interesting to the audiences. As the show goes on they will learn that she was wrong about the promises that was offer to her. She just there to make the audiences question who is good or evil. Yes in the book all the dark friends just want power, but that is boring for tv if all the evil people are just selfish. It's over the top cartoonish evil guy thing that works for the books, but the tv wants to be complex in their different types of evil.
Thank guys for pointing out some of these glaring issues that take you right out of the story.... it's a shame because they have so much story to draw from. Till now I have seen mostly people on YT saying it's good not being able to cope with the fact it's not, and not even close to the books at all. It's a bad Clone right now.... I hope they can turn it around.... thanks guys!
I think there is room for them to turn it around. I've been operating under the hope that they don't break the lore completely and we're all just reading into it a little too much. Hoping.
I dislike the position that people are wrong for liking it as is. People are not mentally inept for enjoying something even if it has flaws.
@@SolitaryLark I guess I should have said not accurate to the books in comparison to good or bad, you can enjoy anything you want for any reason, sorry for foot in mouth I agree with you on your point
@@andrewt3768 yes, I think that there's some kind of misinformation were history was being told incorrectly to put the men with power as always evil
@@andrewt3768 If it was accidental, maybe, but these are CHOICES they have made, expect LGBTQ representation at some point.
Its amazing that no reviews ive seen that has brought up the fact that in the book that spring is late , In the book that was the first sign something was odd going in the world , It looks like summer time in the show to me , So how in the hell can it be called Winters night
To be fair, the show only called it Bel Tine.
But yeah. I definitely noticed the lack of frost. They did SOMEWHAT make up for it in EP 3, with everybody but Rand being cold. (I enjoyed his smug remarks about his coat. That could play out very well in the future when he gets fancier ones, with Mat saying something like "You've always got to have the best coat, don't you?" or something.)
I'm going to hold final discernment to the end of the season. Even then, I'll see what they do with Season 2. Prior to the Worst Winter Ever they also have the Worst Summer Ever, so it's possible they're just setting that up early, which wouldn't be terrible. They probably won't have the mountain shelter from the beginning of the third book anyway, so setting up the endless summer now makes sense from a showrunning perspective.
But I might be giving them more credit than they've earned.
@@norcalbowhunter3264 After episode five, I think they are legitimately trying to set things up for future seasons. Episode 5 is pointless filler UNLESS they're planning to set things up for Fires of Heaven
Heck of a gamble, and I feel strongly they should be doing more to develop the Emond's Fielders at this early stage.
And they're *really* downplaying Rand's importance, aren't they?
That was one of the first things I noticed. I thought "wasn't it supposed to be all cold and grim?"
Man I love your guys passion. And Shad, hearing you go on about the overall message of the Wheel of Time series is going to make me read it. The world desperately needs more messages like that.
So, no, nobody with any authority on the show cares about the source material. The "consultant" is likely only a consultant to get him under the NDA so he has to keep his mouth shut.
I was trying to explain the significance of the change to my wife when I figured out, what I think, is the perfect analogy. Imagine a remake of the Wizard of Oz where Dorothy is changed to be a homeless orphan. It might, at first, seem an insignificant change but upon a moment's consideration you should realize that it destroys the core premise. Dorothy is trying to get back to Kansas to get back to her family. If she has no family, she has little to no reason to return to Kansas; the plot falls apart.
My biggest gripe is that the more you change at the start the less you can use the already written material for the future episodes and will need to do even more changes. Which makes the demand on the writers much higher to make the story good but all the unnecessary changes already points to them not being good writers. So this is a almost a guaranteed failure no matter what they try to do later.
It's the butterfly effect. You change small things in the background then everything might change later unless you do an appropriate correction in time.
@@Klickor That's why I stopped watching GOT mid-season 2, when I saw they changing Rob's wife I knew that they steer more and more from the source material until all characters are unrecognizable. Then I heard that season 5 would be good I couldn't finish ep 2 when I saw Littlefinger planning Sansa's marriage.
@@DaviHorner at least GoT started out very close to the books so the bad decisions from the changes they made would take time to manifest themselves.
The amount of change here in episode one is staggering and then when you consider it is the foundation for 14! books you know it will only steer more and more off course.
Before season 2 is over at this pace this series will be late GoT in that the writers for the show is writing stuff that doesn't exist in any book. Content from book 4-14 will not be relevant to whatever this series is at that point.
@@Klickor exactly! The first book was so expertly written (not that the others weren't 😅). Especially going back and rereading it in retrospect. Each and every detail is expertly places to map out the entire rest of the series. And it's SO SO natural! It doesn't feel like it's setting anything up unless you've already read the rest of the series!
After ether first episode, I knew something was way off and and listened to the audiobook again and was stunned at how perfect and important each and every moment was!
It's genius level storytelling! To change anything (other than a few practical things here there that don't work in live action--NOT character changes like having Perrin married already 🙄) is staggeringly idiotic.
The only point in doing so is to intentionally ruin the series. Anyone who actually read and enjoyed the series would never even consider entertaining the idea of altering anything. There's just no room for change. Perhaps in the second half of the series some tweaks could be made, but the lore of this series is simply too thick and deep to accept any significant alterations.
@@SpiderboyN2Jesus I wouldn't say that ANY change would be bad, but it is for sure true that even small changes can have bad implications.
One of the things that bothered me in ep1 is pretty much the smallest change you can think of.
Moirains ring.
It should be a simple golden band with a snakes head eating its tail, symbolizing the ancient Aes Sadai symbol.
In the show it has some huge blue gem in it.
One can think this doesn't matter at all and maybe they did it so the ring is easier to see on small screens (in case people are watching on phones?)
But this small change is bad in a lot of ways.
One, the rings originate from a time before the Aes Sadai had ajahs, so having color stones makes no sense.
Two, the ring is supposed to be un-noteworthy to anyone who doesn't know a lot about Aes Sadai.
Three, the ancient Aes Sadai were supposed to be a lot more humble than present day Aes Sadai (lit. servent of all), so having an ostentatious ring breaks that.
And what does the show gain from making that change? What would it cost them to keep the original?
I've got another one for you, Shad...
[SPOILER FOLLOWS]
Callandor! If the Dragon can be reborn as a woman, can Callandor be used by a woman? If so, why hasn't the White Tower been spending the past three or four millennia trying to get their hands on it? Prophecies be damned! This would have MASSIVE effects on the relationship between Tear and the White Tower.
Properly used, Callandor requires 2 women and a man.
@@thinkingsoutherner731 Yes, but that isn't general knowledge in-world.
@@thinkingsoutherner731 the women are required for the safety buffer. A man can use it alone to augment the amount of saidin they can draw in an unsafe manner. A woman could not channel more saidar with Callandor
Totally Agree.
But to be fair, Channelling Is banned Tear. And High Lords Won't let any Aes Sedia even near the Heart of Stone
@@mr_noob5931 Would it be banned, though, after 3,400 years of the Tower trying to snuggle up to Tear and get their hands on the not a sword sword? It's a ripple effect the effects of which would trace backward over millennia.
Watching these videos has just made me wanna read the Wheel of Time books themselves lol.
Edit: Realized I already had the first one on Audible and never listened to it 0_0
Listening is no reading, and all that crap
@@Halo_Legend True true but the narrator is epic
@@Halo_Legend Listening is better than reading! Petrus can tell all his friends how the cities and names are all pronounced ;). They can show him how its spelled...
@@Designsy-wl9nr i like listing because i can do it while walking my dog. cant bring a book to read while walking lmao
Whether you read it or listen to it- who cares. Consume the book as best works for you. I will say that it took me a bit to get hooked into the story, but I promise it will start to pick up. I am still finishing them myself, about to wrap up book 7.
shad - "ranting about wheel of time and how broken the series is"
Oz - "welcome to 2021"
Correction: it's not broken _yet_
For all we know the story and worldbuilding will be different to accomodate their choices
arenkai like the Boyz...🤡
@@arenkai I don't see how they pull out of this tailspin
@@arenkai Changeing small thinks like making Perin have a wife or the dynamics of characters close family, is one thing. Changing the very core of the central narratives conflict is inexcusable so stop trying.
@@IejirKothar Perrin having a wife isn't even small, that sort of thing fundamentally changes how a character relates to others.
Several characters in the books have these sorts of things in the back of their minds *all the time* and it informs how they act.
I can only imagine how this would impact the Faile situation.
Didn't Brandon specifically make a statement saying that he disagreed with the writers fundamentally over changing certain things and the impact it would have on the overall story? I don't remember the exact quote so take that with a hint of salt, but after seeing the first three episodes I'm getting some serious Mark Hamill Last Jedi vibes.
Yeah he made a reddit post. He mentioned the Perrin wife killing thing, Mat's parents, and the dragon being a woman thing I believe. Focused on the first two more than the last.
Rafe himself said in an interview the they changed the whole men reincarnate into men and women reincarnate into women for modern sensibilities. He said they knew this was a huge change and would have fundamental impact on the overall story as they adapted it. I think this series will be ok this season and probably next, but will have to be completely rewritten starting season 3 to make any sense at all. They’ve already tweaked the Red Aja in episode 4 when Liandrin tells Nynaeve that they protect against anyone who is dangerous with the power, even women. So I believe they’ll have a plot line later where the Reds have to go after an evil woman. Again, I predict that by season 3-4 and beyond, this show will be completely unrecognizable to anything that happens in the books. I hope I’m wrong, but the writing team and Amazon will only be emboldened by the early popularity to go all in on their changes.
@@charlestruppi7793 The show is already unrecognizable to the books. The only thing that can be considered recognizable are the names of characters and locations.
@@charlestruppi7793 It is so dumb. Modern sensibilities? Come on the books are chock full of women and strong women, why the need to change such a fundamental thing about the story?
@@ehellstrom7127 I guess I have a slightly higher threshold for punishment and still have some hope that it turns out ok.
I predict Shad’s hope will be sadly disappointed. They have already changed things that they did not need to change and those changes are not for the better. Plus, he knows the entertainment industries track record of late.
A big thing about the Dragon is how he killed everyone around him. What I haven't really seen mentioned is how that affects the other characters in the series. Everyone who has some relationship to the dragon reborn questions if it is true and if it is they wonder if they should start running now or if it is too late. Friends, family, love interests, subjects, the dragon reborn himself!, literally everyone is thinking about how the taint will affect him and if he will do the same thing as the previous Dragon. Even the people not directly related to him curse being born at the same time just due to the implications of having to rely on a man destined to go mad be the saviour and having it all be in his hands. This is HUGE! and even the possibility of the dragon being a woman lessens it.
So much of the inner monologue and decision making of the main characters centers around this point in the mid books. Later on I think most just accept it but before then it's a massive thing. Even all the false dragons are quite relevant in the future and they are all male and no female in sight.
How this is overlooked can be seen when Moraine drops the bomb one of them is the dragon. She just told the 4 of them that one of them will go mad and kill the other 3. Unless the over half the world who wants to stop them doesn't kill them before that. 0 reactions. They should have started running in different directions before she even finished that sentence and then hid in the woods for the rest of their lives. Trollocs be damned.
Kinslayer is a pretty important nickname of the Dragon.
@@gokbay3057 I need to reread the books but in English this time since I had forgotten that nickname of his due to it being a different word in Swedish. Direct translation is "Bane of kind".
@@Klickor I started rereading because of this series. When Pedan Fain announces that a dragon was captured to Emond's Field, the entire village erupts into hysteria at the fact that he could be the true Dragon. And they plead that he's a false one. This show greatly downplays how TERRIFIED people are of the very idea of male channelers. Let alone if they claim to be The Dragon Reborn. Some of the villager's even said, "You might was well invite the Dark One himself, the Dragon is just as bad."
The opening lines of the series - men thought they could cage darkness itself...the arrogance. She might have well have said "Twas toxic masculinity that broke the world and we women must pick up the pieces." So in their efforts to diversify the books to fit their post-modern notions of gender and inclusion, they suggest that caging the dark one was arrogant - so what was the alternative? And furthermore, if it was arrogant to break the world and cage the dark one, why exactly is Moiraine looking for the dragon reborn to, uh, break the world and re-cage the dark one? From the start the show contradicts itself in an effort to impose woke culture on the story. No thanks.
Not to mention that it was a woman who spearheaded the effort to drill a hole in the Dark One's cage in the first damn place
Hearing the opening monologue I actually wondered if they made Moraine a Red, despite knowing they had cast Lan.
To be fair Lews Therin himself comments on how his pride is what doomed to the world in the prologue.
He even calls out the dragon for being prideful at certain moments in the later books.
@@imbored5951, the female Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends were just as arrogant, if anything even more so, all things considered. And the Aes Sedai of Moiraine's time have screwed up pretty royally due to a similar blind arrogance, such as their fondness for saying "their is no flame fierce that water cannot quench it or wind snuff it out. No stone so hard wind and water cannot wear it away" specifically putting their more likely elements on a pedestal over those more common in male channelers.
Truth bombs 💣
Remember if they go the way of wokeifying WOT. The opposite of love is not hate It's indifference. Stop watching. It's the only thing that you can do to hurt them because if you stop that they won't make money. Who's going to replace the true fans the Tumblr people!? Next joke😂😂😂
But if they stop watching they won’t be able to milk this show that they hate for UA-cam content…
@@daroe2340 Nice moral critique though I would say it's a little simplistic but that's okay. Absolutely you can object to a show because of its wrongs and still monetize it. With the two interest in this case being fidelity to story and a profit motive are not mutually exclusive.
My comments were directed mainly towards the general audience rather than content creators. For I find it far more palatable from a moral stance to give money to people I like then to give money to people that hate a cartoon character that they project on to me.
Or my I off base?
If Netflix can "Improve" the Cowboy Bebop Anime, then Amazon can "Improve" The Wheel of Time. Lol
With Perrin's character, I saw a guy who hated his marriage, could be a sociopath, and was relieved he killed her. Made me think he would do something to Egwene when they split with the other group.
Regarding the genetic diversity of the Two Rivers, the way it is described in the books (primarily isolated with the main points of contact being limited to traveling merchants) sounds a lot like Iceland, which has been largely isolated for the last 1,000 years and now has one of the most (if not the most) genetically homogeneous populations in the world. So, 2,000 years from the fall of Manetheren is certainly enough time for any genetic diversity to have evened out resulting in a very consistent "Two Rivers native" genetic makeup.
Certainly not the most egregious of the changes made by the show, but I agree with Oz that it does seem like forced diversity for diversity's sake. That being said, I think the actress playing Nynaeve is doing an absolutely fantastic job, which is more important than appearance.
My problem with Edmonds Field's diversity is there is a clear cut Seanchan living in the town.
Yeah it’s one of those things that’s like it’s not a big deal it’s just so forced and it directly conflicts with the source material, which is a microcosm for the whole show for me so far, changes that didn’t necessarily need to happen and are weaker than the source material.
You say Nynaeve is a great character but when did she tug her braid? Like come on
The thing that bugs me most of all about this is that the isolation of the Two Rivers and the genetic homogenization that would be expected of that isolation directly resulted in the birth of two Ta'varen (discounting Rand here, as he wasn't from The Two Rivers) and some of the most powerful female channelers to ever be born. Yes, The Pattern had a hand in their creation, but the phrase, "The old blood is indeed strong in The Two Rivers", wasn't repeatedly uttered as a throwaway comment, it was conveying a message. The genetic traits for channeling etc were obviously concentrated and condensed over time by basically what amounted to a lack of genetic diversity and borderline in-breeding. This is completely thrown out the window when they retconned Emond's Field as a multiracial community.
Just like Loki, I will only experience the show past the first couple episode via this channel.Hollywoods destruction of such great books, like Foundations as well, is unforgivable. Everything woke turns to sh*t.
As much as i am worried and annoyed with what they are doing, it is Sooo good to see people who love these books as much as i do talking about them and seeing them for how amazing they really are. ❤
"You thought we gonna do justice to the source material? That's cute." - Amazon, probably.
If it was an exact adaptation where would I get all my entertainment by watching ridiculous crybabies?
Speak the word Shad! You nailed it about the powerful dynamic of traditional roles. When men and women embrace our differences and coordinate and combine our strengths it is terrifically powerful and can overcome tremendous adversity. When that dynamic is out of harmony, everything suffers and comes apart.
The show destroyed the lore in the very first sentence of the very first episode with Moiraine's monologue. It took LESS THAN ONE MINUTE of screen time to completely annihilate the lore.
I tried to take it with a grain of salt. An unreliable narrator. Her line is very much the party line for the aes sedai. Even if her wording is more red than blue
This video was more based than i expected. Good work lads, dont let the current year agenda destroy the things you love.
The amazing part, that now we won't be able to see in the show, is how other cultures deal with male channelers, for instance the sea folk that gives them two choices, either go to the sea and jump holding a rock tied to their feet and die, or be abandoned in a island with no food or water. So it doesn't matter where in the world they are born, their only path in life is to die early or suffer with insanity.
Edit as I watch the video:
The thing about the One Power is that the soul has a gender and it's that way forever, so if you're born as a male then you'll be a male for the rest of time, but I read on reddit a quote from the writers that they changed how it works to be random and if they are born as male they can touch Saidin otherwise they can touch Saidar. So yeah that character that is born in a different gender will prob be able to touch the female half, Saidar.
Edit: Corrected the information about the soul being gendered.
Why would this not still be a thing?
I really don’t want to give them the benefit of the doubt but that’s actually in the books.
An evil male wizard has his soul put in a woman’s body to save him from death and she is able to still use Saidin afterwards
@@LordB-dg8ks I feel like that resurrection was different from the standart kind. I mean move to a more modern world and you would have people with plastic surgery running around as the other gender using wrong part of the power ... (I would think about the book instance as Dark one being plastic surgeon + ressurector)
@@LordB-dg8ks while you are correct, that was a direct, deceptive and punitive action taken by the Dark One himself; those people didn’t choose to be/realize they were “trans.”
They were fully formed people with lives and personalities who were intentionally body swapped. It was also so foreign to the lore of the universe that no one even suspected it was possible.
This version literally opens with “the dragon could be a boy or girl.” It’s not canon, at all
It was always tied to the soul, but the soul was gendered.
Listening to this just makes me think about how good the books are and how many more things the show can still screw up.
The books are quite good, but not perfect. I think the pacing in them can be abit slow. Later books suffer from this horribly. Alot of scenes were nothing really important happens.
@@otarev If only I could trust them to just cut down on downtime instead of ruining... well, everything. Characters and worldbuilding mainly. ESPECIALLY in the first book that sets lots of stuff up.
The Wheel of Time showrunner Rafe Judkins answered the female dragon issue in reddit: "The change we made was not just with the fact that a woman could be the Dragon, the core change we made was that people are NOT 100% convinced that these 3000 year old prophecies are 100% accurate. I think it feels a little bit more true to the world, and you see the characters questioning the prophecies of the Dragon and the details of it much more in the show than in the books (although there are some scenes in the books that show this as well, we've just expanded on that). It seems quite trusting for the Aes Sedai, who trust no one, and especially Moiraine, who trusts less than no one, to believe with 100% certainty ANYTHING that was written thousands of years ago"
I very much hope that this is the case.
I don't trust it, but I can hope.
Here you have people with a significant understanding of lore complaing about characters that have an incomplete understanding of the working of their world and also taking about how the prophecies are confusing for the reader until they finally come true.
In the books I would say Moiraine didn’t really become devout about the prophecies until after she goes and visits Adeleas and Vandene.
Shad should have told them that the Breaking of the World was the literal Breaking of the World lol
It all feels so rushed, yet they spend so long an somewhat trivial matters. I just don't get it..Rand suddenly has his fathers sword on his hip, Mat doesn't have the bow and Perrin doesn't have the Axe. Oh yes Morraine said there are 4 tavaren, i mean wtaf.
If you don't know the story the show will probably be fine for you, but I don't think they're doing anything particularly exciting with the magic. It looks good, but the effects aren't interesting enough to carry the show. I predict that people will get bored pretty quickly, because the plot lines they seem to be setting up just aren't that interesting compared to like game of thrones, which they will definitely be compared to. Problem is Wheel of Time isn't like Game of Thrones, and trying to find a weird middle ground will probably leave a lot of people dissatisfied.
I believe we are witnessing the beginnings of the breaking of our own world, and that the return of the Dragon is nigh...
Facts
You don’t even realize how true this is.
Makes me wonder who you believe the previous Dragon to be
@@nynkeandreae7008 ghengis?
@@mykeusgaming1510 perhaps it is because English is not my native language and he is called differently in my language, but I'm not sure who you are refering to. Please tell me about this person
To be fair, in the books, Moraine *does* discourage (*****) from studying the prophesies; because no one actually understands what they mean, and it could steer him in the wrong direction.
Had the exact thoughts as Oz about the 2 rivers diversity when watching the show; as an isolated society, it sure seems very diverse which just looks odd.
The Foundation tv show replaced 4 male characters with women, the most important one being Salvor Hardin, who is now, you guessed it, a black woman. Also the actress is non-binary, gender-something-something :( At least in sci-fi more diversity in a small community is more believable, but come on, Two Rivers looks like the full assembly of the UN.
After seeing the first three episodes, I felt that I had to "cleanse the taint" by reading the pure source (Ha. Ha. Ha).
In episode two I thought the story Moraine tell them about Manetheren was very powerfully told and it was a great story.
No shit. It is taken verbatim from the books. Except for one tiny detail. In the books there is the king Ameoan (?) that held the Trolloc army. He held fast. And it was his death that the queen felt (he obviously was her warder) and which made her unleash her suicidal draw on the One Power and kill the remnant Trolloc army.
Same with the Village's Council. Not mentioned. They were competent but male.
Its this mix of the competence of women, and the competence of women that make you strong. And WoT show that when men's strength is neutered, the women pick up the pieces yes, but the entire society is much worse than what was possible before when male and female Aes Sedai could routinely work together.
Hell. One of the main reasons Rand actually are able to do all the important things in the books is that he can competently work together with female Aes Sedai. I won't leave spoliers, but how will the important parts of the books work at all?!?
I only have one quip with this: the village council is definitely not competent
The village counsel eventually comes competent once Perrin comes home & leads them.
I mean, if you ask the village council and the men of the village, they are competent. If you ask the womans circle and the woman of the village, you'll hear a different story.
@@theovertrogue9525, Tam and the mayor are quite competent. The Women's Circle is just as hit and miss in its competence
If your taint needs cleansed your probably wiping the wrong way.
I think my biggest complaint is Nynaeve running what felt like an ultra marathon to catch up to the group when they got to Shadar Logoth. They never established she had a horse. Just that she tracked them... She really ran a far way lol
Fit humans can match or outdistance people riding horseback in most environments. Also, she was a day behind when she caught up. She would have been thoroughly exhausted, but plausible.
@@kevingray4980 I am thinking that this is another hint that she is an extraordinary channeler that doesn't fully know that she is channeling the one power. Being able to track and catch up at this distance while avoiding Trollocs and a Fade is extremely impressive. Far beyond what a normal human could do.
@@carsonsmith2680 Makes sense. Very in line with her wilder abilities. I still prefer the take that she's just the world's most stubborn and protective MF.
@@kevingray4980 tracking someone significantly slows your pace of travel
@@abigailslade3824 Not that much if you're skilled, the trail is fresh and you're tracking a party with horses. That'd be like following a map with compass, a few pauses now and then to get your bearings, then long stretches where you travel as fast as your feet can travel. Even if you get stumped at one spot for a couple of hours, you are still saving those steps for later in the day. There are only so many steps a horse can manage per day, day after day, especially carrying load or bad terrain. For humans, it's much more.
Personally, I've done 50 miles over a 15 hr stretch, and I think most people in reasonable health could manage that with a few months training. Of course athletes do far more.
So if a party of horses is doing 30 miles per day, that's about 9 hrs of walking for you to catch up. 24 hr day minus 9 hrs walking and 10 hrs rest leaves 5 hours you could afford to waste. You'll be worse for wear, but you should get there. But the job gets more difficult when the horse party actively employs tricks like travelling in a fast burst, confusing the trail, squeezing in extra miles by unburdening horses, or travelling right up to or after nightfall. That's when athleticism and tracking skill are really put to the test.
Lan employing such tricks and always being on the lookout coupled with Moiraine healing the horses for extra miles is what made him so impressed. Admittedly it's portrayed more believably in the book.
Your breakdown about how men and woman working together can accomplish wonders is the core of the book! BRAVO SHAD! .... it's not gonna be in this show.... sad
There is literally no reason to believe this as of yet…
@@SolitaryLark that it's not accurate to the book? They could course correct but the first 3 episodes have huge changes. Sorry you can like the show no problem with that whatsoever, it's a choice, but to call it accurate to the books in any sense is to be in denial
@@ProphetOfTheDragon No your specific example of something you believe will not be included when there is no reason to believe this specific thing will be excluded at this juncture.
@@SolitaryLark lol I thought we were in a different comment.... agreed I don't know it won't be in the show as of now, I am basing my assumption of what has already been on the cutting room floor... I could be wrong. Hopefully I am
@@ProphetOfTheDragon Most of what has been changed has nothing to do with central themes of the show would be weird to change something like that. Character introductions and backstories are often fiddled with first and foremost.(I suppose I understand the concern but is really don’t see the inlining principles of the books being changed)
This is how I feel about the Witcher season 1. All the changes do nothing to improve the story. They changed things for no apparent reason, but to do the opposite despite the story being damaged as a result. It's stupid.
Check the Living Anachronism. Did a great video on that.
What about all the training that they were supposed to be getting from Lan and Thom about fighting and the outside world... I missed them making fun of the boys naivety and taking them under their wing. It was replaced in the show with 40 minutes of them riding their horses and doing nothing. At least in the first 2 episodes
If I remember correctly Perrin doesn't even have his axe in the show. Unless he had it stuck underneath his shirt in episode 3.
Kinda hard to train someone who didn't even bring a weapon.
I feel like Liandrin's line is in keeping with her character, though. She was the main secondary antagonist of several books, going so far as to be Egwene's primary antagonist. So if they leave it at that, it works because it gives insight to her character and her thoughts on the world.
It is certainly possible that Liandrin can be wrong in her opinion. People not entirely understanding and misinterpreting the past is a core theme of Jordan's story. I just think that is not where they are going.
SPOILER?! Ok. They didn't need to increase the age of the characters. In book 2, The Great Hunt it is revealed that Moiraine has been looking for the Dragon for nearly 20 years. So that puts Rand, Mat, and Perrin at 19 years old. Moiraine has been looking ONLY since she heard a "prophecy" that he was reborn. So the entire dialog that the characters needed to be aged up for a more visceral TV adaptation is a lie. Or, it is a honest statement by people who did not actually read the books.
Robert Jordan would be sad by this blatant twisting of his story.
A ha! A channel that isn't gushing over this horrible adaptation. I watch several book tube channels that all claim that they love this much beloved series and yet they see nothing wrong with this very bad tv version. Glad to see some fellow folk who know and love Jordan's grand American high fantasy series and tell it like it is...
yup daniel greene is a bit of a huge sellout
@@animeproblem1070 Yup. Sad, but true...
@@athenassigil5820 i think the only worthwhile videos he makes are his one piece ones because his passion for the series at least feels genuine
They have to gush, they can't speak against the woke cult or they'll be excommunicated.
@@Furluge I quit watching the tv series, but I've gone back to the Jordan books, again. That is my take back. If it's woke, go to the source..mind you, just wait till Amazon craps on LotR. I'm not even going to bother with that show. I hate how they adapt beloved book series for representation, particularly when there are so many other books out there that fit the woke narrative they could adapt and then they call people bigots who react. It's all so dumb, but also underhanded and sinister.
If Perrin turns out to have cheated, it sets up an internal conflict later on with Berelain that is fundamentally not who he is.
I got the sense that maybe Perrin's wife was pregnant, or had just lost a baby.
@@Mcmj-ot4dt I did notice that in the scene where Laila was introduced Perrin puts his hand on her stomach and the camera focuses on it. Could be implying something like that. His axe also hits Laila precisely in that spot.
The relative failure of this show during its first three episodes causes me to worry, as a massive LOTR fan and nerd, about the upcoming LOTR series from Amazon, since it is set in the second age, which is before the events of the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, I am expecting the series to reflect the epic holdfasts and castles, beautiful landscape, interesting characters
, and terrifying monsters that are mentioned in the Silmarillion. With the Wheel of Time, I’m worried, I hope they do the second age of Middle Earth justice.
P.S Great video you guys I hope you can build your castle mansion soon Shad! 👍
Oh buckle up, the LotR TV show will be abysmal.
Mark my words.
The biggest disappointment for me is they dropped the Dragon Reborn stuff upfront. Not only does it peel off too many layers of mystery from Moraine (varying distrust between the Emond's Fielders and her is a big part of the first few books) it completely robs the significance of the last line of the first book. It really does make you think they may change who the Dragon is because they are really putting the focus going forward on who the chosen one is, rather than what is special about each of these people.
Also leaving out Thom from the beginning is a heinous sin, if they follow the books going forward he gets maybe two episodes this season? Blasphemy.
Also top 3 characters:
Bella (not a brony btw)
Loial
Thom
So what I'm getting from this is I should read the books or listen to it on audible.
I think folks who are familiar with the books are overlooking how internal a character Perrin is. His main fear is that he will misuse his strength, but that is hard to show in a TV/movie context. The fact that he accidentally killed his wife gives the viewer an immediate insight into Perrin in a way that I don't think could be done otherwise given the size of the cast. A lot of the other changes bother me, but this one doesn't.
I agree for the most part with you. It's a decent way of setting up Perrin, with out having minutes of exposition about it. But I think it should of been someone a bit less personal to him. Maybe have it emphasized that it's because he is *so* strong. Like have his immense strength break some thing, that then causes a villagers death.
Next turning of the wheel Shad's soul will be reborn into a female body and i will enjoy him leaping about in skimpy clothes with sword or axe
I dig that you upload channels at the end of my work day. I know you’re not doing it for me, but it’s real handy for me.
Hey vatos, thank you for your refreshingly honest discussion on this show.
After the Shillening, I thought I would never find anyone talking frankly about this.
I'm enjoying the increase in content, and shout out to Oz! The jester is the only one allowed to tell the truth.
He's really got a "Wit" about him
I'm with you on the whole male channeler/dragon part. Male channelers just don't feel like the boogiemen they should be at this point. The only thing worse you can tell a man is that he's a darkfriend and even then he's less dangerous than a male channeler. Moiraine telling everyone she is looking for the DR and the boys basically showing no reaction to what this would mean for them is the one change I fear they may not recover from. Most other changes, while in several cases annoying, are mostly superficial and don't change the world too much, but this one is a stinker.
As for the whole race thing in the Two Rivers, I honestly don't care. It's obvious why they did it and I don't think it'll be a big deal for those who haven't read the books. It's mostly background characters anyways afterall who appear for a single episode. However, they should be consistent. If the TR has had a constant stream of immigration they should also drop the "Old Blood" plot. So no almost understanding what the Old Tongue means and no higher propability of being able to channel. Make the unifying thing their culture and not a shared ancestry.
I'm with you that the race thing isn't too much of a change I could live with it, though it takes away some of Rand's struggles with ancestry, part of that affects his sanity etc it did play a big part but there are other major factors dropping one isn't too bad. Agree on pretty much everything else Dragon being a woman possibly destroys everything moiraine just saying everything destroys her character she was hated for always talking in riddles, further the whole weight of the dragon channelers (male) and dark friends is gone they're not scary they're not dreaded, the show is massively disappointing I hoped for better but to be honest this is what I expected.
About fridging: some recent Marvel comics tried to correct this "issue", and It doesn't work at all. You end up obscuring your main character and banalizing your entire conflit just for a shallow empowering moment for a character that doesn't matter at all. That's the problem when you put your personal moralism in priority of actual storytelling, It sucks.
The ultimate "fridging" in marvel Canon isn't even a woman... it's Ben Parker.
So it's a bit disingenuous to declare "fridging" as a gender politics thing.
It makes me want to re read the books abit. I am treating it as a knock off series and am enjoying some bits of it, liked the trollocks design.
I do have some serious concerns, worried about them “subverting expectations” which is the trend these past few years. The politics getting thrown in to serve (as the drinker would say) “THE MESSAGE”.
Better be more awkwardness around girls and skirt straightening.
Welcome you fans of "Wheel of Time" to the (Netflix) Witcher experience. You are not going to like it.
Lol, you mean "Witcher and Friends" starting Yennifer?
@@Furluge Yep. The one with cannon balls - without the existence of cannons and Yennifer stating that magic is not real. Plus a lot of other things. So many other things.
I'll stick to the books.
The one thats going to make me miserable is the new Lord of the Rings show.
I don't think I can bring myself to watch that.
I think LoTR could be good because they’re not covering a book. More of a general history and setting to then add characters and stories.
@@Dexsting but theyre tearing apart the history Tolkien had written and focusing on making it more like Game of Thrones, adding sex scenes which lotr has never been about nor needed and more diversity and inclusion which could normally have been fine but we know what that means in the modern era.
If this had come out while Christopher was still alive I think it would have been OK , but as soon as he died they started restructuring everything.
to be fair, it's pretty obvious that Rand is the Dragon (I'm not a book reader), as he is a) the only white male and b) he is the bastard Twin of a young Hayden Christensen as Anakin Skywalker from Episode 2, I mean look at him!
Yo this guy actually understands what makes the books so good. I’m watching the TV series and it’s not very hard pretending it’s not the wheel of time. Because it’s not.
The problem with aging up the characters is that all was supposed to be married at that point If it is actually a medieval setting.
This is true and moreover, a lot of the choices in the early books are, well, childish.
@@squngy0 Yes. One of the themes of the book is loss of innocence. But now that they are older, it feels like they are too jaded. So they have no innocence lose.
@Jksm Mkv Really! I thought they were mid teens when they left Emond's field. Really thought they arrived it Tar Valon when Rand was 16. You info just makes me hate the change in character then. 😄😃😂😭
@Jksm Mkv Seems I was really confused on the ages on the books. Because it felt like they were in early 30s by the end of the series. LOL!!!
In the books the blood snow was in 978 NE and the first chapter is set in 998 NE, The boys are 20 when the book starts, the only person they aged up in the show is Egwene.
Love your thorough breakdowns as always Shad, I whole heartedly agree that they need to keep the characters nationalities the way they were written. I fervently wish people would keep modern politics and biases out of entertainment entirely. Especially if the story takes place in a world or time period that calls for certain tropes, even if it means upsetting a few casual viewers, true fans will make or break a show far more than the loud minority. I, for instance, will be SO mad if they turn Tuon into a busty white girl (if the show ever gets that far into the story that is). So far the show is doing the bare minimum yet is still enjoyable seeing all the places and creatures from the books and I hope it getts better but I must remain skeptical for now.
See you on the next watch!
15min, but it reminded me. The separation of power also has multiple balancing points as it is asymmetric. Women can feel and see other’s channel, can link with up to 13 women to increase strength, and the power is embracing the flow of the power to guide it. The male side can feel both sides but see nothing, can only like with a female side which can then link with 13 to link another male (so for every man, 13 females link and the female has to be in control), and the power is a constant fight to force the power to work for you.
Also, there is a plot point where there is a female who can channel in secrete because she has access to the male side due to (redacted) and causes havoc in the AES Sedai camps.
Also, gonna be fun when they go to the Borderlands and realize how gender roles they are. Actually the Borderland saying probably saved my life from depression. “Duty is heavier than a mountain, Death lighter than a feather” and while all can fight in the borderlands, the men will always fight and die first. They also butchered the story of Manetheran, though that’s an episode 2 complaint.
Men can see each other channel, and no men control when they lead the 13 women and can guide both flows, women don't control the link if a man is in the connection, 13 women together is the max when just women and yes brings to bear their full power
Men cannot see women channel women cannot see men channel, though they can feel an 'itch' around the opposite I think I can't remember whether than can feel the opposites use
If Amazon remakes the lord of the rings, a female hobbit will just take the ring and not be tempted or corrupted by it, walk by herself to mount doom and toss it in like it's cheap jewelry from an ex boyfriend she never cared for
Amazon is currently making a show based on the Silmarillion. so there's that.
Book spoilers:
Ironically it was a woman that released the Dark One, so yeah not men’s fault Moiraine. It was a man that fixed the initial f up and sacrificed male channelers sanity in the process
Also IIRC
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When lewis went to seal the dark one the plan that female aes sedai had was already impossible to complete
So they haven't helped him just out of spite
@@brakdanych4329 yep, they were divided and failed. Maybe, maybe they would have succeeded if they had worked together wink wink
10:05 Men damn their immortal souls to save creation...women most affected.
Shad ain't the president of Shadiversity for nothing. Great response video my dude.
R.I.P
The Wheel of Time
11/2021
Sacrificed on the alter
of intersectionality
If they had kept the prudishness, Perrin being shot-gun wedding'd into Layla makes the tension make sense. Say they wed and there was a miscarriage and with sex being the fundamental reason they're together causing the issue as she doesn't want to risk that pain again. It makes that touch where he grips her by the belly more significant.
This was my first reading of their entire dynamic, and it makes sense given that's also where Perrin's swing hit her and where on her body the wolf is eating her.
You''re joking, right? It goes against the grain for the Dragon to even POSSIBLY be female, and I'm not saying this because I'm sexist, but because I read the books and because I'm not a monkey in human guise that works at Amazon in the TV series adaptation section.
The more I hear about this adaptation of WoT the less I want too see it and the more I'm convinced that the late Robert Jordan, may he rest in peace, had he had the fortune to see this... there's no other way to call it but debacle... had he had the fortune to see it, I was saying, he'd gone foaming at the mouth berserk.
May they burn in hell, them and their dear fucking shitty inclusivity.
PS
Shad, you oversimplified the story of the bore of the Dark One's prison quite a bit... or rather gave the Aes Sedai version of it. I do hope you know the whole story but chose not to spoli. ;)
Robert Jordans wife holds the rights to wheel of time so if stuff goes off the rails she might pull the plug on this...
I just found out today that it's the same director from Agents of SHIELD...
Now I know why my dad loved this book series. Maybe its times to bite the bullet and get the character spreadsheet ready.
I just tried to watch the 1st episode, and I turned it off after the intro monologue. Moiraine said that the dragon was reborn, and that they didn't know if it was a girl or a boy. Full stop, that's bovine scatology. I think that proves Shad's fears about the de-gendering of the one power true.
Good stuff! Looking forward to hearing more as this progresses!
Some food for thought on 'fridging' a character: I think most people mind it if it is done in computer games, where the PLAYERS are supposed to care about some character that's killed off early in a game without real development, and then making a huge fuss about it. It's trying to have an emotional payoff without proper development. I'd actually argue that the act of Perrin killing of his wife isn't a particularly big problem here; because HE is the one that's supposed to care or be conflicted about not caring enough. That part's fine. What is debatable is whether it was needed to develop him as a character, and while I personally don't think so, I can agree with Shad that it is a valid way to make his conflict more obvious, and earlier.
One thing I've found actually more problematic upon thinking more about it is how Moiraine is written.
* Witnessing the Red Ajah supposedly gentling a man and just saying 'Not him' is off. There's legal procedure to gentling, and to just do is a crime on the level of rape/murder. Maybe Liandrin and her red sisters wouldn't care, but that again carries huge plot implications. What happens when they meet later. What happens when they meet other Aes Sedai? Is Moiraine so focused on her mission that she just lets those things happen?
* The thing about her not warning the villagers, despite there being ample time.
* Same with what happens in Episode 2, for those who've seen it, but a lesser extend.
I do think Rosamunde Pike fits the role, though. It's really the writing that is off. It's not deliberate, its just that they didn't realize that that might pose plot problems later on.
Finally, I do think that the massive let-down that was the first episode is due to not having been given the time it needed to tell what needed to be told. Supposedly the show-runner wanted to have 2 hours, so a full pilot film, and didn't get that time for whatever reason, and the result shows that.
Right now, we're at a point where only book readers notice such things, obviously. But what happens when 2 or 3 seasons down the line, the writers realize that the way they described or omitted something makes certain story beats impossible without even the casual viewer sitting there and going "Huh? This doesn't make sense!"
That is my biggest fear, even given all the obvious progressive changes. That they get to a point where a story that was well thought out devolves into a meaningless tangle of sub-plots, because they couldn't be bother to give each change they cut a careful look. Because Wheel of Time is one of those series where everything is interwoven and each thing is set up books earlier, and if you remove the little things, you deprive the audience of the big, big emotional pay-offs that come later.
And if that happens, you just have generic, mediocre fantasy that gets cancelled after 3-4 seasons because it costs too much to produce and doesn't pull in the audience to cover that cost.
Yes. Things like relegating Lews therins story to later in the season if at all. The fact they only put the Lews Therin prologue in a 3 minute animated short with a cringe voiceover doesnt bode well for later seasons.
The writers are aware of how their choices change the story and how they don't. The entire story has been mapped out to 8 seasons already. Hopefully it will get more screen time than 8 seasons and they can slow the pacing down a little bit instead of rushing through the entire thing.
The weeping angel! I can’t keep staring at it while I’m watching and listening to you- what are you up to having that there? Lol
As for the racial homogeny, please remember that the Two Rivers had been isolated for a couple thousand years, while the rest of the world has not. Also, the royal families have a lot of turmoil with cousins taking over from their predecessors and a bit less inbreeding than some historical instances. So they wouldn't necessarily be as blended as the Two Rivers.
Yeah they're only visitors were ferry folk peddlers and until recent times the occasional tax collector very very few visitors, I can look past that change even though Rand's heritage struggles and inner thoughts about if tan is his real father etc were some of the best character growth sections, I can ignore the added diversity, but too much has been messed up to be acceptable