WHEEL OF TIME vs GAME OF THRONES, why one will always be better
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
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Being popular sucks. Everyone tries to copy you with the base elements without understanding what's most important: giving a fuck about what you're doing.
It is interesting you say there are more woke in fantasy fans when Robert Jordan said one of the reasons fantasy was more popular than sci fi was because in fantasy you could still say there was good and evil.
Woke means understanding there is a balance of good and bad built into the universe .
You could say that then, perhaps, but now much of fantasy has been overtaken by the same desire to blur the lines between good and evil that had taken over most sci-fi at that time.
That's not to say all such stories are bad, but the elevation of the agenda over storytelling results in morally muddled messes. E.g. Captain Marvel: if you're going to give the Skrulls a face turn, fine, but shouldn't that result in some moral horror for the main character at the fact she was slaughtering them by the bushel for years? That could actually lead to some interesting character development we sadly didn't get.
I am a fantasy fan and i hate woke
@@ricolove8255 YOU ARE WRONG
@@ricolove8255 nope, Marxist brainwashing. Woke doesn't see true evil, it makes excuses for it.
Example: Thanos in the comics is the mad titan. He ended half the universe as a gift to Lady Death.
Mcu Thanos is an eco warrior, trying to save the universe. That is a bloody lame villian.
Can Oz and Nathan read the first book after season one ends, and then talk about the book, and how they feel about it? I would really enjoy that, and I think it would be very interesting
Please. That would be excellent.
Yes please
Great idea.
It would have been great if we could even hear their authentic first impressions and opinions of the show before Shad influenced them with his, but alas it seems too late for that.
I'd like Shad to re-read/listen to it alongside them, too. He seems to have forgotten a few things here and there, lol.
WoT is to GoT like a tree is to a flower, both are plants, but nowhere near the same thing. The fact they tried to make it thronesy really shows how little the creators know of the series.
Rafe is trying(badly) because GOT had a lot of success(because it was done well).
And GOT has a lot of shock moments and drama
Rafe is Ishmael reborn
@@davidlarson242 Father Of Lies(and woke gay sjw on Twitter)
I read that at an early stage somebody at Amazone requested the wolves in Perrins story to be replaced with something else because wolves would be to similar to GoT. Lets see if we ever hear somebody in the show mentioning the "Game of Houses". Yes, WoT (Book) was before The Song of Ice and Fire, but with the shows it is reversed and now "Game of Houses" will sound like a cheap copy.
Btw. I don't think they are activly trying to make the WoT show more GoT, they are actually trying to be less Lord of the Rings, which "The Eye of the World" more or less emulates. Because, as one book reviewer put it, "that was how you got published in the nineties".
@@gildor8866 in the '90 you couldn't do otherwise, I think, so Jordan was right to go for that road.
Fun fact, GRR Martin was friend with Jordan and when the first ASOIAF book came out Jordan had this to say on the cover: A Game of Thrones grabs hold and won’t let go. It’s brilliant.
Fun fact 2: in ASOIAF, Martin has included a lot of mentions about Jordan and Wheel of Time, such as:
The Citadel of Oldtown is named after Robert Jordan's alma mater
Lord Trebor Jordayne of the Tor is mentioned by Tyrion Lannister as being one of the great lords of Dorne. Robert Jordan was published by Tor Books for most of his career
Lady Rohanne Webber of Coldmoat has her hair tied in a long braid and tugs on it in moments of high stress, similar to the character of Nynaeve al'Meara in Jordan's Wheel of Time novels
Archmaester Rigney is mentioned as theorising that time is a wheel. James Oliver Rigney, Jr. was Robert Jordan's real name
The Coat of Arms of House Toland is a dragon eating its own tail, and is meant to represent the unending and cyclic nature of time, same as the Great Serpent in Jordan's the Wheel of Time
Google trends shows that even now (today) Game of Thrones is significantly more popular than Wheel of Time in internet traffic and interest. GoT ended over 2.5 years ago, and it's still more popular than WoT, which is a currently running series.
Do you by any chance have numbers from 2012? Many people, me included on started watching when it was already in season 2 or later (and I stopped after season 7). Comparing current WoT numbers with the GoT total is a fixed result. A show that managed to get 8 seasons must simply be succesful on a level that even the best series will not match in their first season.
@@gildor8866 When GoT peaked at the end of season 7, and almost reached the same peaks again at the end of season 8, it dwarfed WoT. GoT has always Trended higher, even 2.5 years after the horrifically infamous 8th season. Shortly after the last episode of GoT aired, interest and discussion died down drastically. Well, after everyone was done talking about how bad season 8 was. Since then, everyone stopped caring and talking about the show. Even with everyone trying to actively forget GoT, in the past month, 2.5 years later, it's still trending higher than WoT.
@@ReaLMoisan Everyone trying to actively forget GoT? Hardly. Its success is currently the gold-standard against which everything else in the fantasy genre is measured. Also seasons 7 and 8 are cited as the prime example of how to fall from grace. This alone will assure that interest remains active for quite some time. WoT generates interest for GoT everytime somebody asks "Is this the next GoT?" or people compare it to GoT like Shad in this video. WoT could be the best series ever or the worst - in both cases interest in GoT would still be higher.
it's the production quality. If WOT had the eye candy of GOT it would be more successful.
GoT had an excuse for s7, s8 - GRRM got writers block and they had to make it up. WoT has 14 completed books and access to Brandon Sanderson but they choose to ignore it all and make it up instead.
If I recall, they are pretentious garbage writers. They also had creative differences with George, so...
@@asdergold1 They aren't garbage writers, at least they gave an ending on time that was watched by record breaking views. WOT isnt worth being talked about at all.
Then they tried to "improve" the story. Improving one of the greatest tales ever?
Let’s not kid ourselves mate, the show started to really drop in quality with season 5 and D&D got progressively lazier and wanted to get it over with. They don’t really have an excuse at all.
@@ianvera4299 What. On time? On what time? What kind of bs narrative did you buy?
Everything that went wrong was something they CHOSE.
"I've been letting Edginess come out in Shadiversity" Well it is hard to not have Edginess when..you review bladed weapons.
Ohhhh, snap!!!
That's as bad as my pirate joke, lmao. I love it. Edginess... :))
Sanderson came out in an interview where even he said WoT is trying to be GoT and he doesn't like it.
If this show is trying to show strong, competent, independent women being benevolent with power…it is failing miserably.
The Amyrlin Seat is insane, corrupt and drunk with power
They gave her, Elaida' personality.
Suian was a manipulator. She was tough as nails, and would slap down anyone who stood in her way, but she wasn't petty. She wasn't aggressive. She and she certainly wasn't malicious. They took "tough as nails", but took away her wit, intelligence, and everything else that made her tolerable and interesting as a character
She is also supposed to be imposing and commanding. I get more commanding presence from a pomeranian
@@joesmutz9287 she is one of my favourite characters. Poop in rafe.
It's kinda ironic cause it reflects the showrunners personality. They think they're the former while being the latter.
Something to note is that Arcane came out earlier and even now it is still being talked about and does the things WOT does show wise but better. So really it’s a bigger oof on the showrunners. You want representation? Awesome. Work hard to make great characters and do not condescend to your audience.
WoT already was absolutely full of diversity. Pillow friends, a huge diversity of cultures, etc. Such a key defining feature of the seafolk was how they looked so different from everybody else. It made them special in every way that was good. Yet even a positive thing was shit on for no reason
Arcane is an awesome example of how Diversity and Inclusion should be done. The writing of this story is Stellar and literally beyond the comprehension of most "Woke"tards
Agree. Arcane did everything right (mostly). Infinitely better than WoT, sadly.
@@davidlarson242 This is what pisses me off so much about WoT show-lovers calling those who don't like it "racist". Robert Jordan's world is beautifully diverse and very well crafted. It's a great example of diversity done right, it's consistent, and it serves the story well. Erasing all of that diversity for the sake of... well, still diversity, but done in a much messier, less-coherent, poorly crafted way... is insulting to Jordan's rich and varied world.
Simply put; had they adapted Jordan's lands, cultures, and peoples as he wrote them, it would be a wonderfully diverse show and everyone would be happy. Instead, they went down a deliberately divisive route of wiping away all of that coherent diversity and replacing it with messy mixing pot of racial and ethnic incoherency.
I'm not pissed off that the show is diverse; I'm pissed off that the diversity is done so fucking poorly when compared to the source material.
@@lbds9555 It’s scarlet lettering and gaslighting that annoy me the most.it’s one thing to like the series but when you actively shut down conversation that’s where I get mad. Media and art is supposed to be discussed and critiques. Good or bad. It’s how in theory we get better media. Poisoning the well is always counterproductive.
I must confess I'm quite enjoying the series. The one that's availeble in our local library.
Oh, you!
I started reading the books via our free national library online, and I continued by reading them on Kindle. After this I'm going to get the physical copies (not via Amazon) to preserve them.
You had me in the first half, not gonna lie.
Binge read > binge watch! I binge read the series. I think I blasted through each book in about two days each one! They were so good.
You think you could bring the writers and show runners with you the next time you go to the library? It's obvious they have done very little reading of the books collectively.
There is so much wrong with WoT show that it would be far quicker to list the positive points. They got the names right.
My first positive was "The trollocs look good" and...... yeah.
🤣 i'm so glad i found your comment abigail. it's SO TRUE.
@Learned Helplessness episode 1 I'm like damn they got Lan so well at least I can hold on to my stoic childhood hero- he's dead...... they killed him and made me watch....
Biggest difference is GOT tried to follow the story till they ran out of story to adapt, WOT decided to not follow any of the story at all from the beginning, and act like they are better than the author and creator of the material.... GOT was a worldwide rise and fall, WOT is a silent shart in the bed from the start.
I vehemently disagree. That shart has violated my ears just as much as it has the rest of my senses.
Not quite, they did change quite a few things, most of which were bad changes.
They also had "creative differences" with George, so there's that.
They didn't ran out of anything
GOT didn't run out of story. There were entire plots and even main characters in the last 2 books that the showrunners omitted entirely
I just read an article by screenrant that said that making Moraine and Siuane lovers is a objective and drastic improvement on the books. There points are basically, it adds complexity to her character, and increases representation. Complexity? In what way? It's just...so dumb
Well I suppose its better than Moiranes lovestory with Thom - though that had the advantage that it lasted only two paragraphs in which you had to suspend total disbelieve...well, romance was really not Jordans strength.
In the books she was married to her cause until the end!!!
That isn't a change from the books. Apparently many people in this comment section haven't read New Spring
@@Echidna23Gaming Yes, Moraine and Siuan were pillow friends, which definitely means they got hot and sweaty when they were young. But nothing suggests that intimacy lasted. Robert Jordan himself explained that a lot of those relationships evolve into extremely strong, platonic relationships, which was the case with these characters
Honestly, I don't have a problem with it (except for it maybe hampering future romances), but it is a change and one that doesn't do much for the story. Unless someone believes that the only way women can have a very close relationship is if they're tasting each other.
@@Echidna23Gaming i haven't read new spring in like 20 years can you provide quote?
Both will go down in history as go-to examples of how to waste a show and it's potential.
Except Wheel of Time is opening straight with a Game of Thrones "season 8" from the start 🤣
@@AscendantStoic There is something to praise about that, at least they didn't waste so much of our time (◕ᴗ◕✿)
@@JewishFrog lols, Yeah 🤣
@@AscendantStoic now this is what I call talent
@@AscendantStoic mmm... season 5.
Oh man. Thank you for this. I'm more looking forward to your reviews than the show at this point. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Because the show sucks and Rafe will make it even more shittier
Same here. I've stopped watching the show and I'm just watching the Knights. Time better spent.
This all the way
Season 2 kick-off :
Moiraine : "well that was a weird dream"
I feel for Oz, i can understand the burden of always being right
It's a curse..
I too am a perfect being, it is always good to find like minded individuals.
@@thishonestgrifter welcome to the club
He is the Min of the channel
Lol
I have been really enjoying and looking forward to y’all’s reviews and discussion. Thanks guys👍
4:54 I think Shad just described Daniel Greene perfectly
The strongest lasting element of GoT was the dialogue and the best seasons were smart enough to draw heavily from the books and when they couldn't they had GRRM there to fill it in. WoT just doesn't have scenes like when Tywin spoke with Jamie while slaughtering a deer. That scene was 100% iconic because of the acting and dialogue.
@@utsuro3962 Also the person they're setting up to be the "main character" is dumb considering what happens to them at some point in the story. I love Gandalf, but he works best working behind the scenes while we watch the fellowship figure things out. WoT needs to focus on the main kids because that's where the meat of the story is.
@@utsuro3962 I guess. Just have the promotional material focus on the kids. A trailer with them living their lives then suddenly having Moraine show up and turn it upside down would have gotten the same sense of mystery.
@@utsuro3962 Considering Moiraine won't be sticking around forever, I think the set up in ep5 and the season in general has been solid so far
that discussion between Tyrion and Jamie, I wonder who else than Charles Dance could bring that scene home.
One of the most depressing things about the people shilling the show and defending it , are now actively saying “eye of the world” was bad. Trying to justify the changes by crapping on the books they are suppose to be fans of.
There is a difference between acknowdleging that changes had to be made and defending the changes that were made. I don't think of EotW as a bad book. It isn't. But I don't think of it as a great book either, because its mostly a retread of Lord of the Rings. I don't hold this against Jordan. As somebody remarked "That is what you had to write to get published in the 90s". But of the three persons I know who read Eye of the World only one continued to read the rest, the others saw no reason to read thirteen more books of it (they had heard it would get worse later on) . The really good stuff starts with the Hunt for the Horn, not book one. And just because I am a fan of the series does not mean I will pretend that Jordan did a great job with everything, like developing the love story between Lan and Nynaeve (don't get me started about Moirane and Thom "we have always been in love"), or that book-Nynaeve is a wonderful character in the early books (like many others I hated her). Or Crossroads of Twillight which Jordan himself called a failed experiment. It is the greatest fantasy series I've read, but it has its missteps.
Loving something means loving it despite its flaws, not denying they exist.
@@gildor8866 to be fair to Jordan, he did explain the LOTR similarity, and that explanation is included at the end of the Eye of the World audio book.
"What actually happens when the wizard shows up to the sleepy village and tries to recruit The Important Characters for the Grand Quest?"
Answer? Not LOTR. And he did it well, despite the requisite similarities.
These aren't Wheel of Time fans, they are Brandon Sanderson fans who had to slog through the series to get to the parts he wrote. They might find the story interesting or like some of the characters, but they are *not* Wheel of Time fans, and don't like the first 11 books. This is why they say idiotic things like "the storytelling is outdated"
Eye of the World had a few pacing issues, but was *far* from "bad"
I just watched Sanderson, the man is too nice and a bad lier. He said, he loved Rafe, way to many times.
Pretty sure the perrin change, isnt the only thing he didnt like.
He's not doing it to be nice, he's lying because Amazon pays him a lot of money.
Sold his soul long ago
@@bidu2331324 I have read Mistborn and I can safely tell you it is anything but feminist. Otherwise it wouldn't have had the relationship between the main female and male characters one of the primary points of the second book with a focus on how supportive and devoted Vin was to Elend and how their relationship was one of equals despite her being initially vastly more powerful.
Not to mention all the other awesome male characters - Kelsier, Marsh, Sazed, Ham, Breeze, Spook, Clubs, TenSoon etc etc etc
@@customsongmaker Agree
The reason GoT was so interesting was because Martin helped write the scripts for the first 3 seasons and the show runners kept to the layout of the books for a few more seasons.
Once they started to come up with their own plots it went downhill and when it went woke it just jumped off a cliff.
The WoT show runner is narcissistic idiot who thinks he and his cult followers can do better than Jordan, so he shoves in his own ideology from the start, changes the focus of the show to something nobody cares about because there’s no groundwork for it, and adds his own inferior plots that are written by people so stupid they can’t see stuff like the gay or die thing for what it actually is!
What got people hooked on GOT was the first few seasons relatively strict adherence to the books. Didn't hurt that the author was there and had negotiated with HBO so they couldn't have a show without his input. So even though Hollywood was showing signs of being woke they couldn't do what they've done to WOT.
GOOD point
Everyone's trying to imitate GoT, just like they all tried to imitate LoTR before it.
The best thing that happened to the batwoman series was EFAP, those boys elevated it to new heights.
My hope is that in 10 years some animation company picks up the rights and makes a better version of wheel of time; the inverse of what happened to Avatar the Last Air Bender
No...Amazon will guard these rights with their lives. No way that they allow someone else to come in later and show them up.
@@jacobyrassilon THIS could be the case indeed : (((((((((((((((((((
From r/whitecloacks
the "politics" of this episode were written by a couple of 6 year olds. It's so weird watching succession at the same time as WOT. Succession has such genius writing and subtle politics and it's so weird to see people praise the "politics" of episode 6 of wot. i wonder if we watched the same episode. That's the biggest problem of this show, the subpar writing.
Their politics are so loud and showy. I would expect deep politics to be more like a den of vipers, never knowing when someone will strike. These ladies were practically brawling out in the open. If you want a show with some good politicking try watching Succession. Their politics are so subtle at times you are left confused but you are always wanting for more. This one, not so much. I get that reds hate blues and will openly fight them. Ajahs all try to f each other over. I get it. I'm just not that interested in it. What would have made me interested is if one of the Ajahs had hinted at some unknown end-game that Moiraine was f up. But there was nothing like that. All we really saw was an in the moment thing. Everyone's intentions are crystal clear. That's not really politics is it?
Moiraine receiving punishment. So many things were wrong in this scene it's hard to explain but I'll try. Moiraine adding in all those additions to the oath made it way too obvious she and Siuan were a thing. "Clever as a pike." BARF. That's a cutesy wutesy thing you tell your 6 year old, not to your King/Queen. Then she changed the oath to say "obedience to Siuan" instead of obedience to the Amyrlin. Anyone listening would have sniffed out a traitor instantly. All these ladies that are the smartest women in the world in politics and not a single one of them noticed. A fucking peasant would have noticed. Also. MORE CRYING. It actually didn't make me feel emotional at all. When everyone is crying all the time I find it annoying rather than emotional. You know what would be emotional? Moiraine accepting her punishment with poise and grace. That way I would have felt compelled to feel something for her, in place of her feeling sorry for herself. But nope, we need Moiraine to cry a thousand fricking times this episode.
The politics we have seen in episode 6 it's like a high school drama, where is the discreet!! Hiding your cards but nah bragging about them and threat openly is like a teenager.
@@napolien1310 yea but moiraine is lgbtq so it's perfect /s
@@RespectTheSourceMaterial yes representation is the initial ingredient of a great show, if you don't have it then you lost.
So sad
Are you sure it is the writing of Succession that draws you and not because it is a show about rich powerful white people?
@@cairhieningent I'm sure.
Your videos are therapeutic at this point. It's sad that they tried so hard to be Game of Thrones when part of The Wheel of Time's appeal is its emphasis on traditional heroism. At the start ot the series, the protagonists are innocent and endearing and the show doesn't reflect that. This could've been an amazing show but we got what we got. Even if they did a course correction for season 2, it would still be stained by season 1's disrespectful approach to The Eye of The World.
They also gonna pull that crap with their woke LOTR series, even though LOTR was made *before* GoT, and we know it's gonna fail.
@@RollingDodge If they mess up the Amazon Middle-earth series, half of the fantasy community will rage (and rightfully so).
You can't correct course after the crash. You might limp the broken thing down the road for a while, but the damage has already been done.
But I have a feeling that the people loving it (not the misguided ones who've never read the books, they are innocent and to be helped if possible) are the same tumblr/reddit crazies who thought the books were overhyped trash because they skimmed through them maybe once and couldn't fully understand them.
They want to watch the world burn, and moreso if it delivers in the ways they wanted from the books.
I think Rand not reacting to being Aiel is the same obvious disrespect for his character, that we have seen with Luke Skywalker, and other iconic characters. It’s always disguised as “subverting expectations”
On the "if this gets canceled you'll never see another adaptation..."
BBC recently put out a series called The Watch
It's supposedly based on Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels (the Guards arc to be specific)...but it's an in name adaptation for all intents and purposes
This has lead the Pratchett estate, and several friends of Pratchett to start funding their own series that's actually following the books
Until I left those groups that somehow like WoT series, a common statement was "it's an adaptation, it's never going to be as good as the books, so you should be happy with what you got"
To which I would often reply "I didn't expect book quality, but I was hoping for GoT season 1-4 quality, not Starting WoT off like GoT 7-8!"
oooofffff have mercy man!
The only good ending WoT series can have is a fade to black and the words "I have won again Lews Therin"
By having Moiraine heal Mat and take away the Shadar Logoth dagger they have already preemptively eliminated one of the 3 major plot points of book 2. So good for the show, they are now free to rewrite book 2 as well.
I've rarely seen a show mess up the "sex sells" part of the show so badly.
Sex might sell, but it’s a very competitive market.
Look who they cast for Min, the biggest male fan favorite. She's not ugly but nobody is hanging a poster of her on their wall like they did with Liv Tyler or Emilia Clarke.
Case in point: I’ve tried talking with my coworkers about the show a few times to gauge general opinions, and not a single one of them had even heard about it.
And I envy them.
Real comparison should be Wheel of Time vs Dragon Age. Dragon Age used a lot of Wheel of Time elements in its world building.
Dragon Age Origins was my favourite game, I love the characters, the music, the witty banter with the companions, the romance and the story. I still play it on the Xbox One.
Interesting, yeah I do remember elements in Dragon Age like the ritual to sever the connection between the magic users and the fade being quite similar to the gentling ritual done to male magic users in Wheel of Time, including having severe side-effects.
@@AscendantStoic There is also Logain as one of main antagonists in first game, the taint only not in magic but darkspawns, the Wardens/Warders...
DA is a great example of a story taking inspiration from multiple places but still feeling like it's own thing. You can see the ideas they got from WoT, but they incorporated the ideas in a transformative way.
There are already woke articles admitting that the Wheel of Time TV show isnt doing well, but at the same time claiming that it's somehow "totally fine" that it isn't doing well in terms of viewership, talk about peak cope.
Rosamund Pike has already said that WOT is better than GOT on the diversity front because WOT has more different characters
According to Rotten tomatoes the audience score is 76%. Arcane is 97%, Cowboy Beebop had 57% (and got canceled). That looks like ok. Of course I cannot say how accurate and safe against manipulation these numbers are. But there was one 1-star review I found interesting "As a fantasy series I might have rated it 3,5 or 4 stars. But having read the books and knowing what they left out its 1 star".
@@gildor8866 just read the comments under every video WOT uploads and you'll get how much the audience is shitting on them.
It's not that this show don't follow the books accurately, is that it ignores the books altogether and is done cheaply. No one has faith it can respect the core of the original source, especially later on in the coming books
@@jurgenparkour9337 Sorry, but the audience is the people watching, not just those being angry enough to comment online. WoT is currently on par with Hawkeye in demand - no small feat giving the vast MCU-fanbase who will watch anything in that universe.
@@gildor8866 more than half is just hate-watching. This paired with the reviews from the book fanbase is dooming the show. Shitty quality can't go that far
Brienne of Tarth?
Oh, you mean the most memorable and deep character, Captain Phasma!
The most important things that the books have explained at this point that the show hasn't. The circumstances of Rand's parentage. The Prophecies of the Dragon, The Dreams involving Baelzamon. The Circumstances about Perrin and the wolves. They have also entirely left out several recurring characters and events that play large parts in the later evolutions of the story.
Elias Matchera and the Wolves, Dapper, Hopper etc. Bayle Dromon the captain of the river boat. Elmindreda and her foresight. and The entire cast of The Queens Blessing Inn in Caemlyn and the politics surrounding Queen Morgase and her Daughter...
It makes me think the Writers and show runners are reading the books just far enough to make the current episodes and they have no grasp of the overarching story.
That would explain why so many of their changes completely ruin future character arcs, and so many cut characters are actually important
Best example would undoubtedly be Perrin and the White Cloaks, as much of his character arc was trying to avoid going wild like that again, and there are several plots created because of the people he personally killed, and people who thought poorly of him
They were told the story by someone that read it 30 years ago.
@@joesmutz9287
Perrin already has been trying to avoid going wild like that since he killed his wife. His character arc is intact, and actually makes more sense now than it does in the books.
@@Carabas72 Perrin's primary arc is how he becomes a Wolfbrother. So, no, if you are a non-book reader, you got no clue why his eyes are going gold, Or why there are wolves around him.. As a non-book reader, the TV show has given no background.
Without Elyas his actual arc, of dealing with being a Wolfbrother has not been explained.
What the TV has given us is a guy who wants to die cause he killed his wife. He even said that to Egwene.
Book Perrin never feels like that.. His arc is soooo different so to be almost a new character.
@@Carabas72 Narratively, an accidental death due to startlement is not the same as a semi-deliberate choice to rip someone's throat out
One requires an arc of acceptance. That it wasn't actually your fault
The other requires rejection. Acknowledgement that it was your fault, and the following concentrated effort to not let it happen again
They are two extremely different character arcs that end in two very different places
I genuinely wish I could animate and create a anime style episode of the first chapter or even the prologue of The Eye of the World. I would want to do it as accurate to the book as possible and animation a lot like Rising of the Shield Hero. I think animation would lend to the story way better and also allow for the internal exposition of the characters thoughts and could show the stark differences of the world of dreams and you could have the wolves talk too!
Thank you guys so much for what you do. Appreciate the sane, intelligent opinions.
GoT had better sets and locations that made you feel like you were truly seeing different regions. Better and more interesting characters close enough to the books (for the most part in my opinion, ofcourse some characters could have been better represented). Less woke political, gender and race swapping, tokenism BS that ruins the already established lore and immersion. Better worldbuilding closer to the source material (up until season 5 after that we can all agree they darn messed up hard after that 🤦🏿♂️). Need I say more??
Goes to show when you stick to the source material of a successful fantasy you're more likely to create a masterpiece. Deviate and assume you can do better than the author that's when you get crap like season 8. Wheel of Time is such a huge missed opportunity, a faithful adaptation would have been as good as GoT in my opinion if done right and with the right budget ofcourse.
Edit: would love to discuss further but youtube is hiding my replies these days for some reason.
Yeh. Im not buying the excuse.
" we need to change it, to bring in none readers"
No, thats been proven, bloody false.
In the beginning Game of Thrones also "STUCK TO THE STORY AND LORE OF THE BOOKS". Particularly the first season. That's the real reason of its initial success. The further they deviated from the story the worse the TV show became.
The big problem with the Wheel of time is that you cannot really have a faithful adaptation, there is just too much source material. However, I kind of disagree with your argument that whenever you stray away from the source material it is always gonna be bad. Tell that to The Shining. There is more than one way to adapt something, all it takes is competent writers which I think they have for the most part. That being said, I still have some criticisms of the show, and believe GOT season 1 is still way better, but I am optimistic for the longevity of WOT. If I were to criticize the show I would criticize a lot of the technical aspects, which seem very inconsistent across the board including cinematography and cgi. The costuming and sets can be hit or miss, and the changes to the magic of the world can be a little frustrating, lookin at episode 6. But overall, they still have the core of the story, people keep saying the characters are vastly different and I wholeheartedly disagree. There are some alterations, but not so vast that they completely change the characters from the books…lookin at you Aragorn.
One last comment, I don’t think that hey are changing a lot of the source material because they think they could do it better than Robert Jordan, I believe they did it to condense and better communicate things in a visual medium. Brandon Sanderson on his recent video talking about the show also brought up some good points on the evolution of the series, saying that the first three books are quest fantasy, the next three are political world builders, the slog is almost purely world building, and the last four brought it back to the political world building. What they are trying to do I believe, is give the show a more consistent identity right off the bat, that is more a combination of all these elements throughout.
@@austingarcia6790 Cocaine is a hell of a drug.
@@austingarcia6790 You make some interesting points. Problem is, the TV show disagrees with you.. :(
Best example I can give you is this...
If you ask the average, non-book reader who the main character of the show is, most will say Moiraine, and the rest will say Nynaeve or even Egwene...
That alone tells you that the Show got the primary story wrong.
The fact that the show gave us full background for Siuan, but they have not explained Perrin's Golden eyes is moronic.
Rand has had less screen time that a lot of secondary characters. :(
I could go on an on, but there is no point, just watch Knights Watch reviews of the episodes. They do a much better job than I ever will.
I read somewhere that they wanted to make Moiraine like a female Gandalf. So I'm trying to imagine Gandalf having a secret love shack in which he uses his power to go to his lover.
Compare the "Eye of the World" with "Lord of the Rings".
Moiraine->Gandalf
Lan->Aragorn
The Emond-fielders -> the Hobbits
Taren Ferry -> Bucklebury Ferry
Baerlon->Bree
The Blight->Mordor
The Eye of the World->Mount Doom
Fal Dara->Minas Tirith
Tarwins Gap->Osgiliath
Bela->Bill
Tar Valon->Rivendell
The Ways->The Mines of Moria
and of course: The Dragon reborn -> The One Ring :-)
Moiraine having a lover makes her actually less Gandalf then book Moirane...
When they do LotR, we’ll see )
I mean I can imagine Ian McKellen doing that for funsies.
@@eramart
They're not doing LotR. They're doing The Silmarillon.
I believe Robert Jordan himself wanted that. I don't know if it's confirmed, but I heard he counciously made eye of the world almost like lord of the rings to create a familiar sense on the fans, changing only enough to be a different world. After it worked, he started to change things quite heavily on later books. He was very smart, played the system like a boss.
Because of you guys my husband I have have started reading the first book of WoT. I will say, Robert Jordan is a really solid and engaging writer, without having too much exposition. I'm enjoying the book so far and yeah....there are a lot of scenes in the books that would be so much better than ANYTHING IN EPISODE 5! :D
Also, I'm not so far in the books, but aren't the Blue Aei Sadai supposed to be those who do good works? The shows said they are spies. Also! Didn't Moiraine tell the kids that they had to leave because they fit the age for the Dragon? In ep 6, she said that the kids had no idea of why she took them from Two Rivers.
The blue "support causes" its pretty vague but the few things they do reveal (which might take nine books before you see another example) do always seem to be for the greatest good.
The most positive thing about this series so far, is that it made me go back and begin re-reading the books!.
The last time I reread the entire series was when Brandon Sanderson's last book came out, After watching this show i had to go out and start rereading the books again which required repurchasing a copy of Eye of the World as my original was falling apart. I was correct. The Show has only a passing resemblance to the events in the books. Basically place names and characters are from the books and the Story bears only the faintest resemblance to the original.
I am now just hoping its a decent fantasy series, because there is no way it will ever be "The Wheel of Time" at this point.
Same, I had to get the foul taste out of my mouth by checking out the differences and was pulled in entirely. Going to burn through the whole series again.
Same.
I have them on audiobook and have been re-listening since October. At this point I'm mostly watching to see how comically awful it's going to be with how they've changed things.
I’m about to do the same except I’ll start with a new spring. I’ve only read it once. I’ve reread the series twice since a memory of light came out. I need to do the same to get the taste out of my mouth.
PS a change in the show from eye of the world that I just noticed that may or may not be important. When moiraine comes to emonds fields, she immediately says I’m moiraine of the blue ajah. In the books, it’s rare for sisters to ever come out in public and say they’re aes sedai. Unless they’re with other sisters, friends, or allies, they always use aliases
@@joshcowart2446 Yeah they have skipped a LOT of stuff in their rush to get to the Aes Sedai. Suian Sanche isn't even MENTIONED in The Eye of the World. Neither are 90% of the other Aes Sedai in the TV show. The Only Aes Sedai mentioned before they find the First broken seal and the Horn of Valere, are Elaida in Caemlynn and Sheriam is mentioned in passing. Hell they haven't even mentioned the seals on the dark ones prison as such.
I didn't even watch the episodes. Just reading the descriptions made me wish someone had invented brain bleach. I downloaded the audio books and started "re-reading" them at work for a palate cleanser.
We may have lost Big Ben, but at least we still have Scrawny Ben and Fat Ben.
Jk love ya Oz and Nathan. And Shad of course
That show on Netflix that you mentioned Shad, was Shadow and Bone and for apparently having a relatively small budget it does look great and in my eye has a genuinely interesting story and is primarily story driven. Definately recommend watching it.
I like how we can spend time going into Siuans backstory which isn't even that relevant at all, but we can't spend a second on Rand and Tam having a moment together.
The dragon mystery doesn't work at all either -- it's is a mystery for the sake of mystery currently, as we have no clue what the dragon actually is
"no more than a fish can touch the moon" probably
Well obviously for us who have read the series the mystery doesn't work at all, but for everyone I've introduced to the series so far they have very much enjoyed the ride of betting on different characters being the Dragon Reborn, which is a success of the intention of the show
Out of all the scenes I think could’ve really helped the show was Mordeth. With what they’ve done with Shadar logoth so far, there’s no reason to 1, Be afraid of it or 2 go back there again because it was so inconsequential.
The realization Mordeth had no shadow and what that entailed was in my opinion, one of the best scenes in the first book and really grounded Shadar logoth as a city of evil
I am not sure. How Mat got the dagger is one of the few scenes where the show is better than the book (imho). In the book Rand and Mat behave stupidly, first they fall for the equivalent of an email-scam ("Dear Sir, I 've found a fortune and need your help"). And then they compound that stupidity by not telling Moirane about the dagger. Even if that is already the influence of the dagger, in that case Moirane is stupid for simply believing them after they told her about Mordeth. Mat simply finding the dagger after being lured there by some noise and telling noone makes a lot more sense.
The showrunners of GoT knew how to adapt the books, but it went off the rails once they reached the end of the the published Asoiaf novals. If the last two books had been written and published, I think Got would have ended with a much better finale -- a true master piece.
I bet D&D would have made a much better WoT show than the current showrunners, judging from the first four seasons of GoT.
It wasn't even the fault of D&D and they ended up getting blamed for it, the showrunner literally refused to get new writers because they thought everything was going well and they didn't wanna change anything.
@@armbaria [Spoilers for season 8 of GoT ahead]
I think if the books had already been finished, and they knew how Dany's arc was going to end, they could have made it more realistic if she does end up going mad by the end of the books. It just felt rushed in season 8.
@@MyUniqueVibe True, both Martin and HBO wanted more seasons as well. Tragic how that series ended up but it still had 5 excellent seasons at the start, something WoT fans will never experience lol
@@armbaria I hope the WoT is made into another adaption down the road, with competent writers focus on the books themselves, making changes where necessary to fit the TV show medium.
It can be done with the proper budget and show runners. I'm pretty lenient when it comes to criticizing shows, but this adaption just doesn't capture my attention; there's nothing special about it. It's a big meh, and only worth watching on my big fancy pirate ship, if you get my drift, sailor. :P
@@MyUniqueVibe The best thing about the WoT adaptation were the animated videos they released for me, maybe WoT works better as an animated series overall who knows.
I expected them to try to cash in on it being "the next game of thrones", WoT is just not GoT but I could have lived with that if the writing, sets, and just overall production wasn't so terrible. Independently from the books the show is just bad, compared to the books it's heart breaking.
I have never seen another show propped up and praised so hard by media when it's just a bad show.
Not to mention the omission of Bella, the most important horse in the series.
you know, one of my favorite book adaptation was the "Shogun". And it still beats most of of movies/series made in last 20 years
Shogun was great! Well worth a watch to those who have not seen it yet!
@@BVargas78 And an incredible read! That book is like an epic fantasy, but set in our actual past. Love that book!
Yes! Shogun was fantastic.
we are getting a new adaptation on fx
Even Dragonmount has turned into bunch of cheerleaders. I thought they were fans!
They traded integrity for access.
The show y'all were talking about was Shadow & Bone on Netflix. Its really good show with many awesome characters.
In regards to the Oath Rod scene, it's entirely useless. In book 5, there is a stated Oath anyone can make that if broke, the breaker is on par with a Dark Friend. No rod needed to express the importance of the swear and the person knows the consequence of breaking it. Would have been perfect instead of the crap presented.
I still stand by that the show writers haven't read past book 1.
You are taking the wrong apporach here. Its not about "is the Oath Rod necessary", its about "how do we introduce the Oath Rod to the audience". I don't think they handled that well. For a better way take Lan mentioning that Moirane masked her bond, that is a good example of exposition being done without feeling like exposition. Also I don't think much about swearing "on my hope of salvation and rebirth" - neither Siuan nor Lelane have any qualms breaking that one. Siuan actually chooses to swears this one deliberately to make use of peoples believe that this one will not be broken.
She is Aes Sedai. She cannot lie. Making an oath to not return until the Amyrlin gave her permission would be a binding oath she could not break. The rod scene was completely pointless and the writers would have known this if the fucking pieces of shit had bothered to read the books.
@@nathanrathbun2619 Even if they've read the books the writers don't seem smart enough to figure that out. They can't even wrap their heads around Ae Sedai being literally unable to lie, they keep messing up the dialogue and have them say false things all the time.
I liked the ending to GOT, this horrific adaptation of WOT will make people realise how good we had it with GOT.
They could end this show by having Moiraine ride Rand like a horse to confront the Dark
One and defeat him by lecturing him to death about the patriarchy and the ending of GoT will still be bad.
@@justinalbin7272 Fair enough
@@justinalbin7272 GOT ending is better than anything WOT will ever produce.
@@ianvera4299 I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying it's still bad, and that won't change no matter how bad WoT gets. Have you "kind of forgot" how that show ended?
@@justinalbin7272 I thought it was fine, and that "kind of forgot" gimmick is old.
GoT was good, until it wasn't.
Any chance we'll ever get a Knights Read/Listen covering the WoT novels?
I understand that would be way more time consuming to create, but it would be great to hear y'all discuss the series
There are plenty of valid criticisms of WoTshow that are entirely divorced from the level of similarity to the books.
Shad mentioned one of the really big ones: we spent episodes 5 and 6 on characters that were unrelated to the *alleged* plot of the show and did virtually nothing to bring the story, including each of the characters' motivations, further along.
A very GOOD point INDEED
Very frustrating that they shove their agenda into all media, and complain that people don’t like it. Like you said, make your own terrible thing and stop ruining everything else
If WoT maintains the quality it currently is, it’s most likely to be canceled after season 2. And if it does, maybe we can hope for a more faithful adaptation in the next 20 years with a better production. It’s what I’ve been hoping for with ASOIAF if the books are finished.
Shad, for all that is good and holy never I repeat never give the rights to Shadow of the Conqueror to Amazon! Or any Hollywood Studio as they are currently constitute. Razorfist was right gate keep the shit out of things you love.
I can't get over how bad it looks. So many things in the environment are CGI, and not good CGI. Fire, smoke, sun rays, fog, some animals and buildings, etc. It's giving the show an overall cheap look. There's a scene in episode one where a character comes across a few dead animals, and they were all copy/pasted CGI models. If you look closely, a few of them are identical and even have the same blood/gore placement. I notice these sorts of things all the time in the show, and I just don't get it. They have a massive budget. Why does it look like a show from the 90s?
It's worse than that, the "behind the scenes" shorts show things that were done in practical effects that were covered in a sheen of CG for reasons that I can only speculate. The Trollocs and Myrdraal, for example, have actual prosthetics on stuntmen, and they look infinitely better than in the show.
A lot of the money rpobably went to the diversitaah officer or whatever they call them.
This is why I advocate for using animation for fantasy, especially fantasy with elemental magic. It's so much more customizable. You can make it look anyway you want it to.
Midnight's Edge covered the acquisition of WoT and the Conan IP's. Amazon were gonna do either a 'Conan the Barbarian' or 'Wheel of Time' series because Bezos wanted his own GoT level franchise. They went with WoT because the source material could be moulded around modern day politics.
Didn't they also say that Amazon wanted to make too many changes to Conan so Frederick Malmberg (the guy in charge of all things Conan) shut them down and said they couldn't have it?
@@hansoul-less1569 sounds familiar. I only caught part of the discussion though
Hey Shad. Have you ever read/listened to Dragon Ascendant? It's a fantasy style novel similar to Eragon (i.e. humans bonding with dragons and gaining magic).
Interesting thing with this one is that there are typically 5 types of Dragons (fire, ice, storm, earth, mystic (psychic)). Dragons also hate weakness and will actually destroy Dragon eggs if they sense the newborn has a disability.
The MC rescues one such egg, that hatched into a blind dragon. This dragon is of a different type than of the 5 mentioned above.
Has an interesting cast of characters and touches upon many subjects; including drawing a sword from the back scabbard.
Statement before watching "one actually has character development where they learn from past mistakes or even other people's?"
I find it funny that Shad keeps saying that they are messing up story arcs that happens later. They know that they aren't going to get a chance to finish this bon fire so they have to throw it all in now.
GOOD point : ((((((((((((((((
On the topic of shows, Shad, would you consider an animated version of Shadow of the Conqueror? I feel it would be a better medium than live action, because than you could better depict the world’s magics
By the way, I'm currently re-reading all the books (book 10) and it is custom, bordering on law, for Aes Sedai (including the Hall and the Amyrlin) to stay out of other Aes Sedai business.....soooo......yyyyeahhhh.....hahahahaha
The most I've seen of the show is what you show me. Because I wont spend a dime on trash but more importantly I wont give my time to it. That's why I watch you.
I can’t stop watching but only out of morbid curiosity to see how low they can go.
I bet more than half of the views are just hate-watching for the same reason
Shad's completely right about the GOT TV show coming out and saying they aren't going to pull any punches.
Of course in WOT/The Eye of The World novel, it begins with a scene where the Dragon is wandering his own castle unable to see the bodies of his wife and children that he murdered with the one power. Then finishes with his madness being lifted and he obliterates Himself in despair.
The very next scene is Rand being shadowed by a Fade while he and his father walk to Emond's field.
So its definitely not the source material. It could, SHOULD have started even stronger than Game of Thrones. The problems should have come in later with the huge scale of the works. But this show managed to mess up the give-me beginning.
Had they wished to emphasize Moraine's importance, they could have shoehorned the Aiel war/birth of the Dragon on dragonmount/ Moraine and Siuan there when they witness the foretelling of Gitara Moroso
"He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!"
But this TV version they barely care about the prophesies. Why they picked a bunch of writers who hated WOT to do this show, I don't get.
Honestly I would not mind a show where these three read the wheel of time books, and do a review episode every few chapters, or maybe one longer one for each 1/3 of the book.
One of the things that attracted me to this channel’s reviews of things is when 3 guys sit down to discuss the episode, and they whip out pages of notes!!!!!!
I love you guys for being REAL! Even in my uni they indoctrinate crap like this it is just sad. I am happy I have found a community that isn't dumb!
It's going to be the "Many-Headed Dragon" - that's how they won't die when they go to the EotW. This is what Rafe meant by an "ensemble" cast. LOL I'm done.
It just dawned on me....WoT is the woke version of Hercules and Xena from the 90s....but at least those shows were fun and kinda silly. WoT takes itself way too seriously, but ends up being silly and quite tacky looking.
Thank you guys for saving me the trouble of watching the Wheel of Time show. From your reviews it's not even recognizible to the source material.
A couple years ago I heard a guy in a suit in a hotel bar in Ft. Collins, Colorado talking about the ins and outs of a particular GoT episode as if it were a football game. That will never happen with The Wheel of Time: the show's creators have just made another low-budget [looking] fantasy show that proves to the world that fantasy is for immature adolescents who can't get laid and have no standards. It's on the level of Mystica.
Ngl while I remember the hype, I could se that setting making for a great comedy sketch.
I was thinking the same thing when you said they should just take the best parts. When you think of the beats of the first book it wouldn’t even be hard. A good example is instead of using that random village with the dark friend girl to show dark friends for the first time. They could have just used what happened in the four kings chapter in book 1. They could have had a personal conflict with the wealthy dark friend lady while trying to escape where mat threatens her with the dagger. They could have even introduced the Tham in the same way they did in the show if they wanted.
I got into GoT in season 2, and then listened to all the audio books.
We bought every season in DVD and re-watched the previous season before every the new season was release.
...I will NOT buy a single DVD of WoT and I may not even watch season 2.
The first 5 seasons of GOT are a masterpiece and tv at it's finest. I'm so excited about house of the dragon. HBO quality, with a finished grrm story, and actors like mat smith, are ingredients of a masterpiece.
Season 6 is definitely better than 5. And too bad the show cancelled after that
@@spawncampe hehe true
House of Dragons been cancelled hasn't it?
@@fearsengar6341 dude it has released a teaser and it had 40M views on social in less than 24 hours. Its coming in 2022.
@@fearsengar6341 He's joking that GoT was cancelled after season 6 because it became so terrible.
"Well yes, but actually no."
-Bilbo Baggins
Me watching this after episode 8: Oh Shad, it only gets worse from here
I mean, GOT really went down in flames after a few good seasons while WOT has been bad since the beginning. What a waste!
I would just like to comment about the buzz around Wheel of TIme. People just don't even know it exists. I've spoken with 3 friends that have read the books and they had no clue the show even existed. Now I don't remember exactly how hard they pushed Game of Thrones but it was more than this and after they lopped off Ned's head it was all eyes on Game of Thrones. Nothing they've done have attracted the eyeballs.
The only question left for me about the show is where they are going to choose to cut their losses at.
The only good thing about the show so far is the series of animated shorts that accompany each episode in the bonus content sections. A lot of the explanations that are missing in the show are hidden there. Seriously if you haven't seen these you guys should just go to episode 6, click bonus content and then watch them all and review them. All together it's like 15 minutes but the best 15 minutes of WoT content out there.
Honestly, I think most of them ruin the show even more because they imply that we will not get this information/the scenes in the show where they should have been in the first place.
@@copyability I agree in part but it shows a glimpse of what we could have gotten given a different team.
Aside from shadiversity, which I was subscribed to before hand, I've always had to actively go out of my way just to see any information on this show.
At least we got 4 great seasons and a few good seasons of GoT. WoT can’t put together 1 good episode haha
I have had all 14 audiobooks of the wheel of time, I have never listened to them, after your reviews (not the tv series it's tripe!) I have started listening to episode 00, I know I should have probably listened to 01 first but if I do I will probably never listen to 00 lol. Thanks, I'm enjoying "New Spring" chapter 8 so far :-)
I believe the W O T people saw how popular Dany was and tried to have their lasses match that. they went straight in, and failed big time, it has to be paced right. they are writing like ten year olds
There was some serious political intrigue that get brought up when Rand reaches Caemlyn, with the entire sword wrappings. He got the cheaper wrappings to hide his heron-mark blade, which accidently marked him as supporting Queen Morgase. A slow burn introducing political intrigue would have worked for the story, and it really isn't that slow, as that is halfway through the first book.
I have a gut feeling they have shifted a lot of backstory for a certain character to the last two episodes to make it a Moiraine-Holmes story. Which makes it even worse, because, come on. A story where you expo-dump everything just before the big reveal without decent build-up? That'll feel even more unsatisfying than the build-up of Daenerys as being mad and a tyrant, and that had arguably at least some hint drops, even if people missed it.
At 8:48 minutes, Oz should have said ‘we go in deep and we don’t pull out’ missed opportunity for Oz’s signature jokes
I'm still in mourning over Thom, they massacred our boy, as Shad put it very adequately
In addendum: I've just contemplated how much was lost in this "adaptation". Acrually capable Lan and Mouraine, WARDERCLOAKS (how hard can it be to put a green blanket around someone's shoulders), Mordeth, proper Shadar Logoth and Mashadar, proper Whitecloaks and Geofram Bornhald, Almen Bunt, all Caemlyn and the characters therein an most importantly Baerlon and MIN, how are we to fight Tarmon Gaidon without her? Huh, Rafe how you utter darkfriend scum.
lol...I got into an argument with some dude here on UA-cam that said Thom served his purpose, so anymore screen times would have been redundant...I shit you not🤣
Min has been cast and is in the final episodes of season 1.
@@Carabas72 Yes, I knew she was cast, but didn't know when they would bring her in...although since she is the one that first mentioned the Eye of the World it is a little late🤣
Thanks for another great discussion. Really enjoyed it
I was thinking about the comparison. I have read all the GOT books. The series was incredibly close to the books in plot and characterization. Some men were good some bad. Some women were good, some bad. They all developed over the years. People complain about season 8 but I put that down to the author. He is renowned for being slow. The producers had to come up with something. However WOT is going off the rails to begin with!
They rushed the series to do star wars garbage it should still be running to this day
Books with bianca says you just need to wear some contacts to scare valda