READ WHAT THE FDA SAYS ON THE MATTER BELOW► ISOtunes Bluetooth hearing protection (Use $10 off code STUMPY): bit.ly/2mdAqcn ►FDA regulations concerning food safe finishes: www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=175.300 ►If you wish to save some reading, here is Fine Woodworking Magazine's take on the regulations I just cited: "According to the FDA database of approved ingredients for finishes and adhesives, all modern unpigmented finishes (ones that don’t contain lead, mercury or toxic colorants) are technically considered food safe IF they are applied in reasonable amounts and allowed to cure properly. The FDA’s list of approved ingredients includes every solvent, hardener, drier, oil and resin commonly available on the market. So in a way, any finish that only uses these ingredients and that cures properly according to the FDA’s tests can be considered food safe."
Again I learn so much from you. Thank you for the timely information at each step in my projects. It's like you know my timelines lol. And it's funny, as your research and information, freely given like this, means I don't have to spend ours online researching the exact same topic. So much time is lost doing that research, so thank you! Now back to the shop. 😎🖖👍
Cool. Checking these out. Any recommendations on eye protection as well? Always struggle with pinching of the safety glasses over the ears with traditional muffs, so these may help.
I realize this video is old but this shows the difference time can point out. "It's just plastic..." We are just learning the dangers of ingesting microplastics into our digestive systems. Cutting a plastic finish is going to introduce small amounts of plastic into your body. I don't know what the safest finish may be, but it isn't something that cures into plastic that is then cut up, thereby getting into your foods.
There is a growing body of research showing that there are micro plastics in food and water we consume daily. Odds are anything you dislodge on a cutting board is going to be large enough to harmlessly pass through your digestive system. It’s the microplastics small enough to get into your bloodstream that are worrisome and those are undetected in the food and water you drink daily. At this point I’m not going to worry too much about it since when I was a kid we had DDT, Asbestos pipe insulation , we played with mercury and had lead based paints.
@@randsipe224there’s research showing that cutting boards do release microplastics. Not only when you cut but also when you dish wash and it releases into water and gets attached to other utensils. I’d avoid any plastic where there’s friction, damage, or liquid contact. Even if it doesn’t cause you any harm (which you might not even know how it affects you, because even scientists don’t know everything), you (and all of us) release more and more of the plastic just by using it into the water, the air, the soil (then crops) for future generations to consume. And can you guarantee they’ll be fine?
My mind did go down the path of accumulated ingestion of microplastics, and I gather that is becoming increasingly problematic (I need to do more research), but I suspect us woodworkers are not going to be major contributors to this even if we do paint some finishes on our products.
Great video, as usual, although I'd like to point out that while lac resin is secreted by bugs it is not actually poop. Long story short, lac bugs suck sap from trees, and most of that sap is converted by the bug into lac, which is secreted by various glands on the insect's body so that it can harden into a protective shell all around the bug. "Droppings" are just that - a waste product that most creatures drop and leave behind because it serves no purpose. So, lac is more like hair than poop - a substance produced by a creature as a secondary protection from the elements. But lac tastes better on jelly beans :)
I really appreciate the one month time frame. Very helpful. I have a wood beer mug that has a coat of epoxy. I've been drinking out of it for years and the beer has damaged my liver way more than the trace amounts of plastic that I have ingested from it have. Great vid as usual.
@@thomasarussellsr the beer 🍺 mug/glass/Stein is a vessel designed to transfer beer from large storage in “small enough amounts” to your mouth, so if you are worried about beer getting hot in your transfer device, drink it quicker and in smaller amounts more often. 🍻
@@geoffbrumpton8544 seeing as I am an alcoholic, on the rare occasion I imbibe anymore, I do my best to drink for refreshment's sake and don't chug for the sake of getting drunk and losing control. This is why I asked how lond it keeps cold. My beer lasts longer than 2-3 minutes and ordering the next one (the "keep 'em coming" mentality). I don't wish to fall off that wagon any more. It has been more than seven years since my last beer or alcoholic beverage of any kind. My last bottle of Jim Beam is still sitting at 1/3 full from about 7 years ago as well. I can't even recall the last time I had a glass of wine with dinner. But that is my choice. When I was a drinker, I could go through $1000 or more in a single weekend worth of alcohol, even if my wife and I were the only ones drinking. We had to stop so we could pay the bills after a lay-off and a following career ending disability on my part (following a stroke). I was asking more for the sake of thinking about making some wooden mugs for iced tea or soda.
@@thomasarussellsr Bugga, bad choices made when young come back to bite hard later hey. As old mate was taking about his Beer mug I assumed you were to ( I still haven’t learnt that lesson yet “don’t assume anything “) wood is a reasonable insulting medium so I would highly recommend a wood hand carved mug finished with polyurethane. Please stay seated in the middle of the proverbial wagon so you don’t fall off , your times not up yet.
Dean James Hamilton of Harvard Woodworking University with yet another graduate level course designed “to make you a better woodworker.” Works for me. Thank you James.
As a food scientist I can tell you about nut oils. These oils, and in general most oils, are purified or processed to a point where any proteins (the stuff that you would actually have an allergic reaction to if you have nut allergies for instance) would either be virtually nonexistent or denatured to a point your immune system wouldn't interact with it, thus no allergic reaction. This is highly refined oils, not cold pressed essential oils. Essential oils would likely give you a reaction because they aren't processed to remove anything nor are they heated.
Please by all meams go do a study with a group of deathly alleegic children and have them drink a cup of highly refined peanut oil to prove that point. As someone with food allergies I can absolutely guarentee you, it doesnt matter how highly refined it is, we still react. The FDA not requiring highly refined soy oil to be listed as a food allergen is nothing but a lobbied decision payed for by the soy industry.
@@HenryLeslieGraham I don't know about Tung oil much, but it wouldnt be an allergic reaction. Cyanide will kill you also but it's not due to an allergy to cyanide.
@@johnjingleheimersmith9259 hi yes thank you for replying. i agree that tung oil wouldn't cause an allergic reaction. however all parts of the tung tree produce saponins. and saponins are present even in the cured oil I believe. I'm not convinced that these saponins would go away simply because the oil has cured, and could still possibly be ingested if any of the tung oil finish were to be ingested - in the form of particulate matter for example.
Thanks for the reminder, I remain amazed and how passionately some folks will defend products carrying the food safe label will defend said products as the only option for anything that might come in contact with food or children. Also thanks for the safety reminder at the end. Cheers from BC!
I'd love to hear more about what happens when the finish starts to wear down on a cutting board: does it ever end up in the salad I'm cutting, or does it always go down the drain?
Once again, great, concise, accurate information that needs to be heard. Bob Flexner has said this before, but it hasn't been widely heard. Keep up the good work.
While I believe Flexner is of the same opinion on this subject and I do greatly respect his knowledge on all things finishing (as I do other experts such as Charles Neil), I did not refer to his book when writing this.
Lots of options out there. Personally I use my own mix, a 'bees wax and walnut oil' finish for cutting boards, bowls, wood trays, spoons, utensils etc.
I worry about the damage to the finish that will result with a well used cutting board. I have many wood and plastic boards and after a lot of use there is clear damage to the surface. So while contact with a hardened finish may be safe, after enough use that finish is going to start to come off in small pieces and get into food, and while likely small in quantity I think this is the real issue. Not so much a problem with serving ware that will not need to withstand abrasions. Washing and contact is one thing, but repeated cutting is different.
You will also be eating the wood flakes. Although microscopic pieces may not do any long term effects. I’ve had good results with mineral oil and have even used vegetable oil on cutting boards. Even washing them in soapy water, just rinse dry and when I think it needs another coat it’s easy to apply. A teaspoon of oil coats a lot of surface area. The newest reports say that millions of plastic nano particles are in a bottle of water and people are worried about a little flake of polymer.
I'm thinking of printing the link to this video and place it on my cutting board tags, along with instructions to never put one in the dishwasher or into water for more than a few seconds when washing. Thank you for this video and here is a hearty AMEN!!!
Useful information, well delivered. Thank you. One point on finishes like polyurethane which form a skin. Knives will cut through the skin and so you can expect slivers to come off, and some will end up in your food - yummy! Once moisture gets under the skin, it's only a matter of time before the whole sheet peels away. That's why I prefer things like waxes and mineral oil. Yes they might need reapplication, but that is pretty quick and painless.
Thanks you - I will cite this *and* the CFR you linked to when the need arises. (I used to read CFR for medical devices a lot and that brought back old times👴)
Even though finishes are contact-safe, there is something to consider when it comes to heat resistance & how well the finish holds up (some just don't). I wouldn't mind a video on which types of finishes hold up best with a hot plate on them, or when filled with boiling water as a wooden cup might be.
Avoid shellac. I made a trivet and tried that as the finish. It looked beautiful but the hot pots that got put on it eventually melted part of it. I sanded it all off and replaced it with my regular beeswax/mineral oil treatment for cutting boards and that's held up fine.
I second this request. My Dad used to make cutting boards as a hobby and used a finish that I don't recall off hand. I forgot the board was in the oven and turned it on to preheat. I realized pretty quickly when I started smelling the tell-tale smell of finish fumes. I pulled it out and allowed it to cool completely and then called my dad for his opinion on what to do. I left that cutting board alone for months before I used it again.
@@halsonger1317 Yea, I've been looking for a film finish that can hold up to things like that but they never seem to last very well. Oils are fine but it'd be nice to find something that can seal the wood pores, but with better moisture resistance than wax.
G’Day fellas , I made a hot pot board from many off cuts of ‘Mackay Cedar’ glued together with ‘Aquadhere’ and finished with ‘Cabots’ Polyurethane and it withstands large dishes of bubbling hot yummy food time and time again. It would be at least 4years old now and still good as. 👍
My go to food safe finish is a mixture of mineral oil and bees wax. I turn a lot of bowls and this finish really make the colors and grain pop. For reference, Bob Flexner wrote a book years ago and he states like you did that once cured, all finishes are food safe. Good video 👍👍👍
THANK YOU! I've been telling people this for years! On my cutting boards, I dilute wood bowl finish with 50% mineral spirits and let the wood soak it up with a few coats. Just enough to seal the wood without a build up of film. It works so much better than mineral oil and wax....
I’ve been debating switching from the standard Mineral oil/beeswax finish for cutting boards for a while, but the ease and speed of application and maintenance without fumes keeps winning my requirements.
Calm, sensible advice as always. One thing to bear in mind is temperature - hots food on cutting / serving boards could leach stuff out of the finish, so I agree, always check thoroughly. Those interested in BPA might be interested to note some epoxy resins contain it or it’s replacements BPF and BPS, but that’s a different story.
Love your videos. The information you’ve shared here is good. You are correct that the term food grade is misleading for things that can be toxic. What it actually means is that the product has been produced and handled in such a way that it will not transfer any contaminants that can get into the food. In the case of finishes it could be things such as metal shavings or even bird droppings. However it doesn’t mean that it’s safe to eat as you’ve said.
Interesting. All told, though, I’ll stick with mineral oil for salad bowls and cutting boards. After 20 or 30 coats, I have found the wooden surface is essentially impervious to liquids. After use, wipe it out or off, apply another coat of mineral oil. Works very well on cheap teak bowls! Turns them into great presents.
I would appreciate an update on this video. A lot of us are looking for finishes that are food safe and that are not a risk for micro plastics, especially for cutting boards.
"Now asbestos free!" Good knowledge, thanks! I always wonder about these things. Same thing with silicone caulk, though there's a bit more data on food safety there.
I still don’t know what to choose for finishing my cup… Same way I solve many problems: I’ll just use what I have on hand. It may take awhile to dry, but you got me started knowing this finish will do.
My friend just got an oak table from his grandma. He used a card scraper to take off about a quarter inch of what looked like wax. She told him that she would spray Pledge on it every week for years. Yummy. Thanks for the great vids.
I often use a mix of beeswax and olive oil (20-25% beeswax to 80-75% olive oil), heated up to combine and apply when hot, so soaks in better. Very easy to apply, both products are edible "raw", and easy to re-treat later
I was going to comment on that too. He must have a heck of a lot better set of teeth than I do if he can eat Tupperware(r). I can barely make an impression in the stuff, and only on the edges. 🤣
Tried and true because it actually cures for my boards. Mineral oil always weirds me out, hated how you can wipe it down and then more seeps out later, and it doesn't hold up to washing. I tell people to use butcher block oil and wax for maintenance since I know they can get it everywhere but I wouldn't use it myself due to the mineral oil but at least it has waxes. Thanks for the great video!
So very helpful!!! Thank you! I forget the brand of “food safe” wood block finish I originally used but I liked it. Currently I go back and forth between mineral oil and watco butcher block oil and finish. The issues I have……….. not fond of the shiny finish, but on pieces that have high contact (spoon edges)… those contact areas get a dried out and worn look that the oil can’t seem to overcome. Just thought I’d share. Any feedback is highly welcome and appreciated!
I have a can of "Tried and True Original" on order ... going to try it on turned items including salad bowls. It is polymerized linseed oil and bee's wax ... nothing else.
I love their line of finishes. The are great for bowls, cutting boards and spoons. I also use them for a lot of other projects. So nice not to have that solvent smell around when applying it.
Very informative, you objectively provided concise and accurate data without shamelessly endorsing any one product.... oh, but wait! what's that hideous red thing on the bench? I kept waiting for a cunning smashy-smashy cut where a large leaf-shaped mass would crush that Red Wings cup-holder. My initial reaction was to question your credibility with that "not a nut comment", but the fact that you left it on the bench, where it belongs, shows that you are indeed a master of the wit, and a probably a Leafs fan at heart. Classic!
2:29 - "and you turned fine, right?" - l'm not sure about that, because of relatively long exposure, or when we are talking about long time effects, which cannot be tracked into single source, but it is made of many sources. And what side effects are yet to be discovered in the future.
Thanks for much for addressing this. I've harped on about this for _years_ on the forums and elsewhere online and it largely seems to fall on deaf ears, even when I quote Bob Flexner on the subject * sigh * Oh and didn't want to lead with this: Imply, not infer.
Can we do that? Can we talk about marketing stuff all day. I’ll keep coming back for the woodworking stuff, but if you do a marketing shenanigans video, I’ll be here for that to. Keep up the good work!
This is a tough topic. I think you gave great advice with broad strokes. I am a Chef and one thing that is never brought up in these types of discussions are food contact surfaces. In the health code there are two types of surfaces. Direct contact and indirect contact. It’s the difference between intentional and incidental contact. Think of it this way if you are preparing food directly on it, that’s a direct contact surface. Such as bowls, cutting boards, pots and pans. Indirect contact are things that food is not prepared on, but has the potential to come into contact with food. Things such as counter tops or your stove top. Cleaning and sanitizing protocol is different for direct versus indirect surfaces. Our woodworking finishes should be thought of in the same way. Personally I wouldn’t use a hard film finish on a salad bowl. Over time it could get brittle and chip off and go into your food. That could become a physical hazard (choking or cut your mouth).
Oh. My. GOD! Poly is food safe? Damn, son! I had no idea! Looks like I'm gonna try it on a cutting board and see how it holds up. Thanks for the reality check Stumpy. I love it.
You will make a fine line every time you draw a knife edge across the cutting board, and the line will be there forever. Water can then penetrate the line. Over time, with so many lines, the surface will degrade until you basically have no finish at all. So, . . . it won't hold up. (My observation.)
You make nice educational videos! Compliments :) As long as contact times and temperatures are small and low (as is the case with almost all household apllications of finished woods), your reasoning holds well. Just don't use a finished wood product for food storage (contact times < 1hr), and make sure the contact takes place at regular ambient temperatures or below, and the migration of any harmful ingredients, if present, will be negligably low. It also depends on the kind of foodstuff the wood comes into contact with: watery, fatty, alcohol,... they all have different migration characteristics for different ingredients. A bigger concern would be the wood itself. As a soft and "porous" material, it can easily be damaged beyond the finish (by cutting with a sharp knife...), and harbour moisture - and therewith bacteria - without the means to clean properly. That has nothing to do with the migration of chemical elements from the wood or finish to the food (which is the "food safe" criterion), but is the higher risk in the cutting board application. That is also the reason why we as European machine builders for the food industry are not allowed to use wood as the material to make any machine parts of (EU law differs in that respect from FDA CFR 21)
I saw your comment below about mineral oil and I have to say that is the reason why I use and encourage new woodworkers to start with it: it is the easiest finish for a non woodworker to maintain, and you item can be used immediately. Also there is not any kind of smell or taste to the mineral oil (although that may just be me).
Yes, and mineral oil is one of the few things that won't turn rancid. That may not be an issue directly on the finish, as it may wear away before becoming rancid, but it will in storage. There was a time when you could buy 2 inch thick oak butcher block slabs from ikea for incredibly reasonable prices (15 years ago). So we replaced a sad old counter in our tiny old house with it. Once or twice a year I flooded the thing with mineral oil, letting it sit over night and wipe off. Treated it pretty much like it was impervious to damage (since it was so thick I could remove any actual damage). And it still looked basically new 8 years later. I loved it because I never needed a cutting board! I don't miss that house, but I do miss that counter.
Is there a good finish for aromatic cedar that will keep it looking red used outdoor? Love your dry humor. And reading comments from other subscribers indicate a bunch of quality peoples in the world.
READ WHAT THE FDA SAYS ON THE MATTER BELOW►
ISOtunes Bluetooth hearing protection (Use $10 off code STUMPY): bit.ly/2mdAqcn
►FDA regulations concerning food safe finishes: www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=175.300
►If you wish to save some reading, here is Fine Woodworking Magazine's take on the regulations I just cited: "According to the FDA database of approved ingredients for finishes and adhesives, all modern unpigmented finishes (ones that don’t contain lead, mercury or toxic colorants) are technically considered food safe IF they are applied in reasonable amounts and allowed to cure properly. The FDA’s list of approved ingredients includes every solvent, hardener, drier, oil and resin commonly available on the market. So in a way, any finish that only uses these ingredients and that cures properly according to the FDA’s tests can be considered food safe."
2nd Ha!
Again I learn so much from you. Thank you for the timely information at each step in my projects. It's like you know my timelines lol. And it's funny, as your research and information, freely given like this, means I don't have to spend ours online researching the exact same topic. So much time is lost doing that research, so thank you! Now back to the shop. 😎🖖👍
These look nice. Where are they made?
Thanks for the info appreciated it from Trinidad and Tobago
Cool. Checking these out. Any recommendations on eye protection as well? Always struggle with pinching of the safety glasses over the ears with traditional muffs, so these may help.
"And you turned out fine, right?"
I didn't come here to be attacked, James.
😂😂😂😂
"I'm not a nut.." Have you even watched your older videos? lmao
+1 for the dad joke.
Yeah bro, the old stumby nubs was willld. Haha.
LOL
I realize this video is old but this shows the difference time can point out. "It's just plastic..." We are just learning the dangers of ingesting microplastics into our digestive systems. Cutting a plastic finish is going to introduce small amounts of plastic into your body. I don't know what the safest finish may be, but it isn't something that cures into plastic that is then cut up, thereby getting into your foods.
There is a growing body of research showing that there are micro plastics in food and water we consume daily. Odds are anything you dislodge on a cutting board is going to be large enough to harmlessly pass through your digestive system. It’s the microplastics small enough to get into your bloodstream that are worrisome and those are undetected in the food and water you drink daily. At this point I’m not going to worry too much about it since when I was a kid we had DDT, Asbestos pipe insulation , we played with mercury and had lead based paints.
@@randsipe224there’s research showing that cutting boards do release microplastics. Not only when you cut but also when you dish wash and it releases into water and gets attached to other utensils. I’d avoid any plastic where there’s friction, damage, or liquid contact. Even if it doesn’t cause you any harm (which you might not even know how it affects you, because even scientists don’t know everything), you (and all of us) release more and more of the plastic just by using it into the water, the air, the soil (then crops) for future generations to consume. And can you guarantee they’ll be fine?
"Mineral oil is safe to consume right out of the bottle... as long as you don't mind violent diarrhea."
Your dry delivery kills me.
I died when I heard this. 😂
Expert delivery. Well done. 😂
Actually, if you wind up with "violent diarhea," I doubt any kind of delivery will stay dry...
"I'm neither a doctor or a nut..." (4:11)
The delivery was dry but the package was not.
A person must be very careful to avoid drinking anything they would not wish expelled through their nose while watching any of your videos.
2:09 "Can plastics harm you? ... Sure, if you eat a set of tuperware bowls..."
That cracked me up.
My Tupperware salesperson says actually it shouldn’t be any problem, just chop it up into tiny bits…..just kidding!
My mind did go down the path of accumulated ingestion of microplastics, and I gather that is becoming increasingly problematic (I need to do more research), but I suspect us woodworkers are not going to be major contributors to this even if we do paint some finishes on our products.
There is nothing as refreshing on a hot day as a glass of shellac with a twist of lemon.
I find blonde shellac too weak personally. If you get something a bit darker and add some bee propolis with orange zest you've got yourself a treat.
I mean it is alcohol
Actually, if you like jelly beans, you've almost certainly consumed shellac.
Many candies are sealed with shellac, gives a glossy hard shine like what we use it for on furniture. Yup jelly beans and sugar babies.
I find the texture offputing unless it is thinned.
Good down to earth advice from an obviously knowledgeable and experienced woodworker. Thanks.
Great video, as usual, although I'd like to point out that while lac resin is secreted by bugs it is not actually poop. Long story short, lac bugs suck sap from trees, and most of that sap is converted by the bug into lac, which is secreted by various glands on the insect's body so that it can harden into a protective shell all around the bug. "Droppings" are just that - a waste product that most creatures drop and leave behind because it serves no purpose. So, lac is more like hair than poop - a substance produced by a creature as a secondary protection from the elements.
But lac tastes better on jelly beans :)
Came here to post this and I can't believe somebody beat me to the punch on such a hyper specific topic. Well said!
@@RussellRRocke Thanks :) I've been told once too often that my jelly beans are covered in bug poop so I drop that science wherever it's needed ;)
Great commentary on wood finishes, your sarcasm is epic. Never stop.
I really appreciate the one month time frame. Very helpful. I have a wood beer mug that has a coat of epoxy. I've been drinking out of it for years and the beer has damaged my liver way more than the trace amounts of plastic that I have ingested from it have. Great vid as usual.
How long does that mug keep a beer cold?
What kind of epoxy?
@@thomasarussellsr the beer 🍺 mug/glass/Stein is a vessel designed to transfer beer from large storage in “small enough amounts” to your mouth, so if you are worried about beer getting hot in your transfer device, drink it quicker and in smaller amounts more often. 🍻
@@geoffbrumpton8544 seeing as I am an alcoholic, on the rare occasion I imbibe anymore, I do my best to drink for refreshment's sake and don't chug for the sake of getting drunk and losing control. This is why I asked how lond it keeps cold. My beer lasts longer than 2-3 minutes and ordering the next one (the "keep 'em coming" mentality). I don't wish to fall off that wagon any more. It has been more than seven years since my last beer or alcoholic beverage of any kind. My last bottle of Jim Beam is still sitting at 1/3 full from about 7 years ago as well. I can't even recall the last time I had a glass of wine with dinner. But that is my choice. When I was a drinker, I could go through $1000 or more in a single weekend worth of alcohol, even if my wife and I were the only ones drinking.
We had to stop so we could pay the bills after a lay-off and a following career ending disability on my part (following a stroke).
I was asking more for the sake of thinking about making some wooden mugs for iced tea or soda.
@@thomasarussellsr Bugga, bad choices made when young come back to bite hard later hey. As old mate was taking about his Beer mug I assumed you were to ( I still haven’t learnt that lesson yet “don’t assume anything “) wood is a reasonable insulting medium so I would highly recommend a wood hand carved mug finished with polyurethane. Please stay seated in the middle of the proverbial wagon so you don’t fall off , your times not up yet.
Dean James Hamilton of Harvard Woodworking University with yet another graduate level course designed “to make you a better woodworker.” Works for me. Thank you James.
As a food scientist I can tell you about nut oils. These oils, and in general most oils, are purified or processed to a point where any proteins (the stuff that you would actually have an allergic reaction to if you have nut allergies for instance) would either be virtually nonexistent or denatured to a point your immune system wouldn't interact with it, thus no allergic reaction. This is highly refined oils, not cold pressed essential oils. Essential oils would likely give you a reaction because they aren't processed to remove anything nor are they heated.
Please by all meams go do a study with a group of deathly alleegic children and have them drink a cup of highly refined peanut oil to prove that point.
As someone with food allergies I can absolutely guarentee you, it doesnt matter how highly refined it is, we still react.
The FDA not requiring highly refined soy oil to be listed as a food allergen is nothing but a lobbied decision payed for by the soy industry.
What about Tung oil. I’m pretty sure that it’s still poisonous even when cured
@@HenryLeslieGraham I don't know about Tung oil much, but it wouldnt be an allergic reaction. Cyanide will kill you also but it's not due to an allergy to cyanide.
@@johnjingleheimersmith9259 hi yes thank you for replying. i agree that tung oil wouldn't cause an allergic reaction. however all parts of the tung tree produce saponins. and saponins are present even in the cured oil I believe. I'm not convinced that these saponins would go away simply because the oil has cured, and could still possibly be ingested if any of the tung oil finish were to be ingested - in the form of particulate matter for example.
@@johnjingleheimersmith9259ap all parts of the tung tree also contain cyanogenetic glucosides, alkaloids and toxalbumins
Thanks for the reminder, I remain amazed and how passionately some folks will defend products carrying the food safe label will defend said products as the only option for anything that might come in contact with food or children. Also thanks for the safety reminder at the end. Cheers from BC!
I'd love to hear more about what happens when the finish starts to wear down on a cutting board: does it ever end up in the salad I'm cutting, or does it always go down the drain?
"And you turned out fine right?"
Ummm I'm a woodworker and we are all a little off.
He only said that because he doesn't know me.
*"I'm not fine"*
Thanks for asking.
I was wondering why I live in sawdust.
Due all the saw dust and finishes
Define this state of "fine"... ;o)
I used 100% tung oil cut with citrus solvent on my butcher block countertops a few weeks ago . Outstanding so far, I'll keep you posted.
Once again, great, concise, accurate information that needs to be heard. Bob Flexner has said this before, but it hasn't been widely heard. Keep up the good work.
I kind of feel like he's been reading Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishing" and making videos on it as he goes through it, which isn't a bad thing.
While I believe Flexner is of the same opinion on this subject and I do greatly respect his knowledge on all things finishing (as I do other experts such as Charles Neil), I did not refer to his book when writing this.
Lots of options out there. Personally I use my own mix, a 'bees wax and walnut oil' finish for cutting boards, bowls, wood trays, spoons, utensils etc.
I worry about the damage to the finish that will result with a well used cutting board. I have many wood and plastic boards and after a lot of use there is clear damage to the surface. So while contact with a hardened finish may be safe, after enough use that finish is going to start to come off in small pieces and get into food, and while likely small in quantity I think this is the real issue. Not so much a problem with serving ware that will not need to withstand abrasions. Washing and contact is one thing, but repeated cutting is different.
You will also be eating the wood flakes. Although microscopic pieces may not do any long term effects. I’ve had good results with mineral oil and have even used vegetable oil on cutting boards. Even washing them in soapy water, just rinse dry and when I think it needs another coat it’s easy to apply. A teaspoon of oil coats a lot of surface area. The newest reports say that millions of plastic nano particles are in a bottle of water and people are worried about a little flake of polymer.
I'm thinking of printing the link to this video and place it on my cutting board tags, along with instructions to never put one in the dishwasher or into water for more than a few seconds when washing. Thank you for this video and here is a hearty AMEN!!!
THANK YOU!!!!! I get this all the time with the resins I use. The finish is only as good as the cure and the person using the item afterwards.
Thank you for making this video. Your explanations are clear and succinct, every time I watch a video of yours I learn something.
Excellent, excellent, excellent! I know it's been 2 years but thank you so much!
Omg I was wondering exact that and from the comments you've been definitely reading our minds!
Useful information, well delivered. Thank you.
One point on finishes like polyurethane which form a skin. Knives will cut through the skin and so you can expect slivers to come off, and some will end up in your food - yummy! Once moisture gets under the skin, it's only a matter of time before the whole sheet peels away.
That's why I prefer things like waxes and mineral oil. Yes they might need reapplication, but that is pretty quick and painless.
Thank you. I agree-using a plastic film-forming finish is a bad idea on something like a coating board.
Thanks you - I will cite this *and* the CFR you linked to when the need arises. (I used to read CFR for medical devices a lot and that brought back old times👴)
Wow what a timing! I was trying to find info about tung oil as a food safe finish all day!
i love your no nonsense common sense explanations, always simple and accurate, keep it up stumpy
Even though finishes are contact-safe, there is something to consider when it comes to heat resistance & how well the finish holds up (some just don't). I wouldn't mind a video on which types of finishes hold up best with a hot plate on them, or when filled with boiling water as a wooden cup might be.
Avoid shellac. I made a trivet and tried that as the finish. It looked beautiful but the hot pots that got put on it eventually melted part of it. I sanded it all off and replaced it with my regular beeswax/mineral oil treatment for cutting boards and that's held up fine.
I second this request. My Dad used to make cutting boards as a hobby and used a finish that I don't recall off hand. I forgot the board was in the oven and turned it on to preheat. I realized pretty quickly when I started smelling the tell-tale smell of finish fumes. I pulled it out and allowed it to cool completely and then called my dad for his opinion on what to do. I left that cutting board alone for months before I used it again.
@@halsonger1317 Yea, I've been looking for a film finish that can hold up to things like that but they never seem to last very well. Oils are fine but it'd be nice to find something that can seal the wood pores, but with better moisture resistance than wax.
G’Day fellas , I made a hot pot board from many off cuts of ‘Mackay Cedar’ glued together with ‘Aquadhere’ and finished with ‘Cabots’ Polyurethane and it withstands large dishes of bubbling hot yummy food time and time again. It would be at least 4years old now and still good as. 👍
@@geoffbrumpton8544 Thanks; pity the brand seems hard to find here. Do you happen to know whether it was oil or water based?
So , well, thats bloody useful to know. Best woodworking videos on youtube by far.
Sooooo glad you did this video...I will be using this to share with customers (and family) to help ease their minds...Thank you so much!
Once again, clear and to the point.
My go to food safe finish is a mixture of mineral oil and bees wax. I turn a lot of bowls and this finish really make the colors and grain pop. For reference, Bob Flexner wrote a book years ago and he states like you did that once cured, all finishes are food safe. Good video 👍👍👍
Yep. In depth and informative. It's why you my boy blue!
I like the side discussion in the video on what finishes are potable
THANK YOU! I've been telling people this for years! On my cutting boards, I dilute wood bowl finish with 50% mineral spirits and let the wood soak it up with a few coats. Just enough to seal the wood without a build up of film. It works so much better than mineral oil and wax....
I’ve been debating switching from the standard Mineral oil/beeswax finish for cutting boards for a while, but the ease and speed of application and maintenance without fumes keeps winning my requirements.
Just use raw linseed oil without turpentine then. Wax if you feel like it.
Or walnut oil, i prefer over linseed both from the perspective of colour and smell.
Calm, sensible advice as always. One thing to bear in mind is temperature - hots food on cutting / serving boards could leach stuff out of the finish, so I agree, always check thoroughly. Those interested in BPA might be interested to note some epoxy resins contain it or it’s replacements BPF and BPS, but that’s a different story.
Love your videos. The information you’ve shared here is good. You are correct that the term food grade is misleading for things that can be toxic. What it actually means is that the product has been produced and handled in such a way that it will not transfer any contaminants that can get into the food. In the case of finishes it could be things such as metal shavings or even bird droppings. However it doesn’t mean that it’s safe to eat as you’ve said.
I’ve gotten more from your channel than any other woodworking channel. Thanks.
Good sense of humor you would fit in good with my family. Thanks for the knowledge on preservatives.
Thank you for the information. I am planning on making serving platters (charcutier) as presents this year and needed to know how to finish them.
Finally pulled the trigger on some isotunes. Thanks for supporting small businesses and your viewers.
Thanks for the video. This is something I have been trying to explain to people for the last 20 years. Now I can just send them the link.
Thanks for bringing some common sense, along with some levity, to a contentious subject.
Just what I needed.. As usual!
Hope another behind the sawdust comes out. Stumpy and Mike crack me up.
Interesting. All told, though, I’ll stick with mineral oil for salad bowls and cutting boards. After 20 or 30 coats, I have found the wooden surface is essentially impervious to liquids. After use, wipe it out or off, apply another coat of mineral oil. Works very well on cheap teak bowls! Turns them into great presents.
I would appreciate an update on this video. A lot of us are looking for finishes that are food safe and that are not a risk for micro plastics, especially for cutting boards.
I’m in the coatings industry, and your videos on coatings are always spot on. Do you have a friend in the industry who helps you?
"Now asbestos free!"
Good knowledge, thanks! I always wonder about these things. Same thing with silicone caulk, though there's a bit more data on food safety there.
I still don’t know what to choose for finishing my cup…
Same way I solve many problems: I’ll just use what I have on hand. It may take awhile to dry, but you got me started knowing this finish will do.
Thank you for this useful and good information.
You're my go to tool guy since I've gotten into wood work
This clears up a lot of confusion I had about food safe finishes. Thanks for sharing this information.
My friend just got an oak table from his grandma. He used a card scraper to take off about a quarter inch of what looked like wax. She told him that she would spray Pledge on it every week for years. Yummy. Thanks for the great vids.
Thank you. This was very helpful!
Where was this video 4 years ago when I made a butcher block countertop and after weeks of searching, purchased a "special" finish oil at $45 a pint!
Thanks brotha! Very helpful , concise, and clear.
Brilliant video James. Very informative and certainly made the choices a lot clearer. Thanks.
Thanks for replying to my question on todays video on Tung Oil with this video. As usual, great information. Thanks
I often use a mix of beeswax and olive oil (20-25% beeswax to 80-75% olive oil), heated up to combine and apply when hot, so soaks in better. Very easy to apply, both products are edible "raw", and easy to re-treat later
This guy just cured a huge percent of my anxiety, and is also really funny without even trying.
Friggin THANK YOU!!!! I can't articulate how happy this video made me; it was very much. See, told you so.
"Eat a set of Tupperware bowls". Thanks for the laugh.
I was going to comment on that too. He must have a heck of a lot better set of teeth than I do if he can eat Tupperware(r). I can barely make an impression in the stuff, and only on the edges. 🤣
All that "food" talk was already making me hungry, but the suggestion of eating Tupperware made me jump up and run to the kitchen!
@@ArTrvlr
The storage containers just sounded too good to pass up, huh?
@@thomasarussellsr Yummy 😋
Legend! Was just looking into this and a little confused with the outcome of my research! Great video, thank you!
Exactly the information I was looking for. Thank you
Excellent content and delivery as always. The comedic flair is always spot on.
Tried and true because it actually cures for my boards. Mineral oil always weirds me out, hated how you can wipe it down and then more seeps out later, and it doesn't hold up to washing. I tell people to use butcher block oil and wax for maintenance since I know they can get it everywhere but I wouldn't use it myself due to the mineral oil but at least it has waxes. Thanks for the great video!
what a master! i always have difficulty explaining the food safe-ness of polymer coatings to people
So very helpful!!! Thank you! I forget the brand of “food safe” wood block finish I originally used but I liked it. Currently I go back and forth between mineral oil and watco butcher block oil and finish. The issues I have……….. not fond of the shiny finish, but on pieces that have high contact (spoon edges)… those contact areas get a dried out and worn look that the oil can’t seem to overcome. Just thought I’d share. Any feedback is highly welcome and appreciated!
Educational is an understatement. Best explanation ever!
Also, thanks for the great woodworking resources
I have a can of "Tried and True Original" on order ... going to try it on turned items including salad bowls. It is polymerized linseed oil and bee's wax ... nothing else.
I love their line of finishes. The are great for bowls, cutting boards and spoons. I also use them for a lot of other projects. So nice not to have that solvent smell around when applying it.
Use it as my primary finish on most everything. Love it.
Excellent explanation on a confusing topic and done very well.
Very informative, you objectively provided concise and accurate data without shamelessly endorsing any one product.... oh, but wait! what's that hideous red thing on the bench? I kept waiting for a cunning smashy-smashy cut where a large leaf-shaped mass would crush that Red Wings cup-holder. My initial reaction was to question your credibility with that "not a nut comment", but the fact that you left it on the bench, where it belongs, shows that you are indeed a master of the wit, and a probably a Leafs fan at heart. Classic!
2:29 - "and you turned fine, right?" - l'm not sure about that, because of relatively long exposure, or when we are talking about long time effects, which cannot be tracked into single source, but it is made of many sources. And what side effects are yet to be discovered in the future.
Thanks for much for addressing this. I've harped on about this for _years_ on the forums and elsewhere online and it largely seems to fall on deaf ears, even when I quote Bob Flexner on the subject * sigh *
Oh and didn't want to lead with this: Imply, not infer.
I love your sens of humour, thanks for this topic
"And you came out fine, right?" Making a loooot of assumptions there...
Another great presentation. Covered all the bases and scored extra points in my book.
very much all my questions are answered,
many thanx.
I have nothing to say really, but I appreciate your content, and wish to help with the yt-algorithms.
Used that boiled line seed oil on my spinning wheel and it STUNK Lol
Can we do that? Can we talk about marketing stuff all day. I’ll keep coming back for the woodworking stuff, but if you do a marketing shenanigans video, I’ll be here for that to.
Keep up the good work!
I like how you explain things. 👍🏽👍🏽
Great video! THE BEST I’ve heard on the subject. Very informative and lots of laughs. Thank you very much!
This is a tough topic. I think you gave great advice with broad strokes. I am a Chef and one thing that is never brought up in these types of discussions are food contact surfaces.
In the health code there are two types of surfaces. Direct contact and indirect contact. It’s the difference between intentional and incidental contact.
Think of it this way if you are preparing food directly on it, that’s a direct contact surface. Such as bowls, cutting boards, pots and pans.
Indirect contact are things that food is not prepared on, but has the potential to come into contact with food. Things such as counter tops or your stove top.
Cleaning and sanitizing protocol is different for direct versus indirect surfaces. Our woodworking finishes should be thought of in the same way.
Personally I wouldn’t use a hard film finish on a salad bowl. Over time it could get brittle and chip off and go into your food. That could become a physical hazard (choking or cut your mouth).
Love you Stumpy Nubs!!
Spot on video. Thank you James.
Oh. My. GOD! Poly is food safe? Damn, son! I had no idea! Looks like I'm gonna try it on a cutting board and see how it holds up. Thanks for the reality check Stumpy. I love it.
Please let me know how you go with polly on a chopping board. If it works for you, I will give it a go. Cheers.
It's great for serving boards, no bueno for active use cutting boards. Bar top epoxy is halfway decent since it has self healing properties.
You will make a fine line every time you draw a knife edge across the cutting board, and the line will be there forever. Water can then penetrate the line. Over time, with so many lines, the surface will degrade until you basically have no finish at all. So, . . . it won't hold up. (My observation.)
You make nice educational videos! Compliments :)
As long as contact times and temperatures are small and low (as is the case with almost all household apllications of finished woods), your reasoning holds well. Just don't use a finished wood product for food storage (contact times < 1hr), and make sure the contact takes place at regular ambient temperatures or below, and the migration of any harmful ingredients, if present, will be negligably low.
It also depends on the kind of foodstuff the wood comes into contact with: watery, fatty, alcohol,... they all have different migration characteristics for different ingredients.
A bigger concern would be the wood itself. As a soft and "porous" material, it can easily be damaged beyond the finish (by cutting with a sharp knife...), and harbour moisture - and therewith bacteria - without the means to clean properly. That has nothing to do with the migration of chemical elements from the wood or finish to the food (which is the "food safe" criterion), but is the higher risk in the cutting board application. That is also the reason why we as European machine builders for the food industry are not allowed to use wood as the material to make any machine parts of (EU law differs in that respect from FDA CFR 21)
Thanks, James, I've been wondering about this topic for some time now.
I've never laughed more from a Stumpy video than this one. 1:55 , 2:08
I saw your comment below about mineral oil and I have to say that is the reason why I use and encourage new woodworkers to start with it: it is the easiest finish for a non woodworker to maintain, and you item can be used immediately. Also there is not any kind of smell or taste to the mineral oil (although that may just be me).
Yes, and mineral oil is one of the few things that won't turn rancid. That may not be an issue directly on the finish, as it may wear away before becoming rancid, but it will in storage. There was a time when you could buy 2 inch thick oak butcher block slabs from ikea for incredibly reasonable prices (15 years ago). So we replaced a sad old counter in our tiny old house with it. Once or twice a year I flooded the thing with mineral oil, letting it sit over night and wipe off. Treated it pretty much like it was impervious to damage (since it was so thick I could remove any actual damage). And it still looked basically new 8 years later. I loved it because I never needed a cutting board! I don't miss that house, but I do miss that counter.
Is there a good finish for aromatic cedar that will keep it looking red used outdoor? Love your dry humor. And reading comments from other subscribers indicate a bunch of quality peoples in the world.
Fantastic! Thanks a lot, dude! It's great to know! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
The marketing plot i love the most is "anti bacterial" hand soap. All soap is antibacterial 😅