The High Cost of Making Villians more Heroic (Netflix Carmen Sandiego)
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- Опубліковано 23 січ 2019
- We discuss the recent trend of villians becoming more heroic and what that ends up doing to the characters that were heroes to begin with. Netflix just released the first 9 episodes of their Carmen Sandiego reboot which was heavily influenced by this trend. What do you make of this trend?
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When they turned Maleficent into a heroine and a protagonist, I was laughing. It's like having a cat named Dog. Maleficent literally means "villainous".
Also completely got rid of the fairies purpose. In the original malevolent puts the curse on Aurora and on of the fairies changes it , but instead they had made maleficent chant the changed curse
@@lehahiah81 And they're SO incompetent at parenting that at the end it's Maleficent who ends up taking care of Aurora just so 16 years alter she can see her own curse work.
Yaroslav Sokolnikov now we need a black hat episode where the roach demon has to be nice to everyone, including Demencia
Kouya Williams oh god the fairies were so terrible you may think that they are evil in heart but pretend to be clumsy to fuck with everyone
they took the Greco-Russian translation which means "virtuous and betrayed woman who only wants to love a daughter, because the evil man does not have true love"
Why can’t there be villains anymore?
You can have sympathetic villains. You can have enjoyable villains. You can have villains that have twisted sense of honor. BUT STILL HAVE THEM AS VILLAINS!!
A sympathetic villain that come to mind is Zemo from Civil War. He wanted to dethrone the Gods that the Avengers has become because he lost his family.
An enjoyable one would be Captain Hook from Peter Pan and the Pirates.
And an Villain with a twisted sense of Honor would be Stain from My Hero Academia.
It follows the themes of most cartoons these days. If you have a villain, they are most likely a Disney themed villain meaning: dumb, incompetent and generally forced to be there.
Disney made such a trope about this aspect of their cartoons that they even jokes about it with Doofensmirtz from Phinias and Ferb where every episode he has a different tragic backstory and that was pretty bold of them.
Entertainment is a formula and also a social engineering of the new generation.
I agree complelty, though Zemo tearing the avengers apart was too quick and convient. Another sympathetic villain is Nox from Wakfu. A mad time traveller who wants to go back in time and see his family again.
I think the thing that bothers me is that they have to make the villains sympathetic 100% of the time. It's like we can't have bad guys be bad guys just because they want to or think it's fun. There always has to be a reason for it. While I find villains more interesting for the most part, I don't need every single one to try to come off as human that I should have sympathy for. Bring in some downright monsters!
Well when I use the term “sympathetic” I mean I can understand their motives and briefly see their POV. I can sympathize with Tywin Lannister because he does what he does for his family. Granted we see what that entails, which makes him a perfect villain. Just because I can sympathize doesn’t mean I can agree.
Zemo was the one I could think of at the time. Looking back I could’ve used Vulture or Killmonger. Though Kingpin in Spider-verse was actually pretty good.
Mal-Malevolent +
Ficent- Magnificent =
Magnificently Evil
........
Its literally in her name!
Mal. Spanish for bad.
Literally evildoer .
The word maleficent means desiring to do harm upon others.
This would have been better if the girl was the daughter of Carmen Sandiego and she wanted to forge her own path. I would have also taken Carmen as an ACME recruit in her earlier days before switching sides to become the notorious Carmen Sandiego.
I mean... this was supposed to take place BEFORE all that, and I see no reason most of it couldn't still happen. The misunderstanding gets sorted, VILE gets taken down, she gets bored, and restarts VILE for amusement purposes
Staggy Thing read my comet you genius theorist
In the reboot, though she's only seen briefly, her mom looks like the OG Carmen Sandiego.
@@us8721 That was a fantasy in Carmen's head. In the series finale and really throughout the series you never actually see her face beyond fantasies from characters.
@@ccggenius Well maybe Netflix's take of VILE could be a restoration of the original VILE named VILER to show how cutthroat they are.
I preferred villian Carmen to this version bc her 'do it for the thrill' personality seemed more interesting. This Carmen's goodness felt a little generic to me. At least I enjoyed this more than new She-ra.
Yeah we dont see much villains who 'do it for the thrill' anymore, so it would have made for something more interesting.
And yeah this is defenitly better than the new She-ra, the artstyle alone makes a lot more enjoyable to watch.
A villain who does it for the thrill? So Adachi from P4?
This take on her has sort of completely removed her Gentleman Thief character archetype since she's now doing it to stick it to the bad guys.
Serenity Joy i do too but I don’t hate the new carmen sandiago
"I do it for the thrill" in itself isn't any less generic than her current motivation.
I've seen both old and new Carmen Sandiego and honestly i love both. I loved the old because she caused a sense of adventure and gave me an interest in the world around me. I'll never forget those episodes ever.
Now the new one tells a story, it gives good information for kids and keeps them entertained and interested. It also gives parents a reason to show them the older show.
I really love both for what they are.
Agree. It actually speaks against her as being so naive to not realize what VILE stood for. Prefer the Catwoman or Sly Cooper aspect of a thrill seeker thief. Kind of an anti-villain.
Making Interpol incapable was a poor choice.
Yeah if they had made her an anti-villain this idea could have worked a lot better.
Or like a couple of anime titles, like Lupin the Third, or Meimi from Saint Tail, punishing the wrong doers, while still being mis-understood (they are still thrives) and forever being chased by the police forces.
I think it was fine for now as Chase is getting better. I actually like this take as the character reminds me a lot of Sly Copper and Lupin the Third.
I think the bigger issue is that she reacted negatively to that revelation regarding VILE. She was raised by these people, and presumably her moral values would have been shaped by them. What possible reason would she have for an alternative interpretation. Still better than She-Ra in that regard though. VILE made no qualms about being criminals, but The Horde actively lied about everything. Like... you're raising this person, you can set there morals, why would you pick a set that conflicts with your actions, instead of just saying that what you're doing is right?
Carmen is already an anti-villain in the Netflix series. She's doing things for the common good using evil methods, namely in this case, thievery.
I'm not a huge fan of this trend of taking great villains and turning them into bland heroes, Maleficent was WAY more interesting as the Mistress of Evil rather than a goth fairy godmother, and Carmen Sandiego is far more compelling as the world's most elusive criminal mastermind rather than a Kim Possible wannabe. Its even worse when they take the former good guys of the story and make THEM into the villains (like King Stephan, Princess Aurora's dad), or turn them into incompetent, unlikable buffoons in order to make the original bad guys look better by comparison (like the three good fairies or the two unwitting Interpol/ACME agents in this Carmen Sandiego cartoon). Its as you said, if the people chasing Carmen are completely out of their league, it seems far less impressive when she eludes them because rather than showcasing how skilled she is for escaping master crimefighters, it seems like she only wins because her pursuers SUCK at their jobs. Heaven forbid Carmen actually face a CHALLENGE to prove just how good she is at what she does, or for that matter have her be the leader of the greatest criminal organization in the world, no no, lets make her into a generic, forgettable heroine who never really has to work that hard to achieve her goals because everyone around her is just bad at their jobs. They've taken what made Carmen cool and unique and turned her into a generic and forgettable character, and thats sad.
I HATE how they ruined the fairies only to have the mistress of all evil LIKE 2 OR SOMETHING YEARS LATER granted, their child turned good but whatever (it's descendent by the way)
I didn't watch the Malificent movie, but it did sound like they made real weird twist to it. Though in the original fairy tale, she really was one of the fairy godmothers, but wasn't too loved for some reason
They're problem with the written with most villains is that the people writing them don't seem to grasp that most of villains enjoy being villains as well the horrible things they do.
Sometimes Villains like causing mayhem and robbing because they have fun with it or genuinely believe what they're doing is the right thing.
As a result they keep making their villains with melodramatic backstory which desperately tries make us feel bad for them or they're just boring leaders who are "pure evil" who simply want to destroy the world.
The whole "let make every villains heros" has gotten tiresome.
It can be done well but when it done over and over and over, it just become repetitive boring and not made better when you have make another characters more incompetent just make the others look better (which quite frankly is just bad written).
But how much is "pure evil"? Is it mocking the protagonist's effort of saving the last life on the planet you just destroyed and call them a bunch of sap ?
I don’t cares if characters had daddy issues, that doesn’t mean they should kill people.
Having something bad happen to you don’t mean you have the right to hurt others. So I don’t care about those villains.
That's right
To me it depends how those types of villains are handled.
saviox8197 True, but sometimes you just can’t forgive a person who did nothing but hurt and kill others.
@@sketchybirdie Yeah you are right, but you dont have to be able to forgive a villain in order to make that character good.
But i do roll my eyes when a story tries to potray a villain like it should be forgiven when it clearly doesnt deserve it.
When heroes are villains
And when villains are heroes.
Leftist commies' fantasy in a nutshell
If only in this case everyone is a hero.
An inversion of our media.
Alex O. After all to them, Karl Mark is Jesus
@deathtrooper666 Especially in today's time bro.
The fairies are actually the most proactive characters in the original Sleeping Beauty. In the end, they were the ones who ended up saving Aurora.
I am ok with "player" being a normal character. Him being the main character would be strange in this type of show, though they should give him a stronger personality. I mean if they're going to give him an actual roll then they should go all out with it.
Maybe he, Zack and Ivy could've been the main characters with the show revolving around them doing their best combining their talents as new ACME recruits against Carmen's machinations?
This trend of turn the bad guys into good guys is exasperating for someone who never was able of sympatize with the villain like me, and is a total lack of respect to the original source
And that is why I loathe Magneto from the X-Men movie series. Every movie intends to turn Magneto into a sympathetic, misunderstood mutant, when he actually is a megalomaniac and manipulative character. Let the man be evil already!
@@iloveutubesince3207 Magneto's an interesting case. In the comics, he started out as a plain evil villain, but at some point later on, he was retconned to be a holocaust survivor. His motivations were also retconned to be that he saw the signs of a mutant genocide on the horizon and wanted to nip it in the bud. This put the writers in a tricky spot, because if they continue to have Magneto as outright evil then it'd look awful on them because they'd be painting an elderly holocaust survivor trying to prevent another genocide as a villain, but at the same time they've spent too much time building Magneto up as a villain to make him stop being a villain. Thus he ends up stuck somewhere in the middle.
I thought it worked really well for Carmen Sandiego because of the kind of villain she was in her last animated series. She was a thief who frequently went out of her way to not cause damage or hurt people, and often rescued the two detectives that were dedicated to catching her. Honestly, she was already kind of a borderline anti-hero who was mostly just in it for the thrill of the chase.
It feels like many have lost sight of how to write villains as entertaining *and* unrepentant. It's like you aren't allowed to enjoy a villain for their charisma and skill anymore because they're evil and thus appreciation of anything they do is problematic and you're an apologist for all the atrocities they commit if you think they were cool in that one scene. So to fix this "problem", the writers make sure the antagonists are *never* cool. (At least, this is what I hear/see/feel when I see these bland and one-note villains that seem so common in recent years.) I was not a fan of the Maleficent movie *because* I loved her absurd pettiness and grandiosity in the animated film. I won't be watching the Carmen Sandiego reboot *because* I loved her as a clever nemesis.
On another note, it's almost like they want the catharsis of a redemption arc, but don't want to work for it by having to acknowledge all the awful stuff their pet character has done.
You uh... You do realize this is a kid's show right? I mean, every form of Carmen Sandiego was for kids. The villains have and will never be terribly dark and gritty.
I think that this new netflix show has it's own fun villains, particularly in the form of Vile's leadership. Despite not having the most screen-time, their personalities are fun and their relation to Carmen is interesting. Towards the end of the season when they stop sending Carmen's former peers after her and instead send one of their own rank, things start feeling pretty intense. It legit felt like Carmen was outclassed. I can definitely feel their coolness factor despite being unapologetically evil. I'm looking forward to each of them tackling Carmen 1 on 1 to see how they shine.
YumLemmingKebabs great now you sound like one of those Sunday School teachers who complained about the first Ninja Turtles movie
@Iggyfing Well said! I LOVE the traditional villains of old, especially Maleficent, who was such a terrifying and oppressive force in Disney's classic version of Sleeping Beauty. Before the Maleficent movie came along, did I ever once think she needed a reason to commit horrible deeds or spread such hate and violence? No! I had always assumed she was just a living embodiment of evil, borne of hellfire and brimstone and very likely an agent of Hell itself (she does tell Prince Phillip that he's dealing with all the powers of Hell, after all). I dislike the Maleficent movie as well, but it's mostly because everything from Aurora's christening onward completely goes against the movie I grew up loving so much (and still do).
Your words at 13:00 reminds me of the old saying "Heroes are only as great as their Villians" As to make Heroes look good you need to have them go up against powerful/skilled enemies. This is also the reason I dislike the cliched opening where you show the hero beating up a bunch of nameless mooks as if that's supposed to be impressive.
While I loved the Carmen Sandiego reboot, this video was very well made, and I like how structured your arguments are.
I call this disease Stewie Griffin-itis. When a character starts out very rough and mischievous and then they turn very soft and vulnerable.
O, rly, Bart?
@@hexum7 Yes
@@hexum7 it happened to Simpsons charcaters too Mr.Burns, Nelson, and Bart himself. His pranks were toned down and currently he is reduced to a sidekick.
icecream hero That was what I meant. I know what you mean: Homer used to wring his kids necks, he was physically abusive, especially to Bart. But he became just a bad but loving father.It just seemed funny to have a picture of Bart giving that criticism
@@hexum7 He still strangles Bart. Homer is the same as he has been since season 3. Mr.Burns went from actual threat to being the butt of the joke all the time, Nelson used to be a big mean bully now they always make poor kid jokes or he cries about his missing father, Bart is barely used anymore because the writters favorite character is Lisa.
I find this trend of turning villains into heroes disturbing. It's akin to history revisionism where, for example, turns out the nazis and their collaborators weren't all that bad...
@Eevee of the Sea What about that mustache
I'm pretty sure 'nazis aren't all bad' is the whole plot of steven universe.
Welcome the 'SJW' ideology, whose love of the Nazi Socialist Party is going to destroy us.
@@TheLunarLegend Aawww man, come on, with lots of love and understanding Nazi officers who commited inhuman experimentation & abuse can turned good ! (( I mean ain't that also the message which kinda... too naive in it's own way ))
@@TheLunarLegend I thought i was the only one that thought that
Yeaaah, I loved Carmen as a kid specifically BECAUSE she did it for the trill. She was smart enough to do it and went against the grain because she ultimately is doing it for her own fun. Not because she's actually evil. She's a chaotic neutral villain with a slick sense of style. That's why so many people loved her.
A thief who only steals from the bad guys.
Now where have I heard that from?
Oh that's right...
Robin Hood.
I think your analysis of the series is pretty spot on. The thing that I dislike about the show is that it's pretty much a Disney themed show where the series revolves around the main character and everyone else around them is 5 points slower both physically and mentally to them. Suffice it to say: without too much thought, most of the characters can be boiled down to 3 categories: good, bad, dumb.
Maybe this is the first season and they are testing the waters. That is my only hope for the show.
Julian Marco actually the things than bother you really change in season 2, Carmen isn’t the best fighter and gets defeated in combats, ACME really track her, chase devianoux is out of the game (fired) and the VILE operatives hunting Carmen are more capable than her ex classmates in season 1,also zack and ivy have more development than just being the comedic relief, so I hope you all can give a chance to season 2, the quality really increases even there’s moments when don’t know who you can trust TOTALLY WORTH IT ❤️
I feel that this is also with the whole 'heroes can be corrupt'. Example: Superman doubting and saying "maybe this world isn't worth saving" which is way against his character. He is a hero who does everything to help the world, whether we like him or not. He is a pure hero. Every hero a pure one?.... No, but not every hero has to be doubtful or against the world, that's the villains job. Superheros aren't real anyways, but we can look up to them.
Same with villains. Why does every villain have to be good now?
Carmen was a pretty unique villain that just did things for mischief and the thrill.... Why change her to be a good person?
And why make good characters into buffoons? It doesn't help anyone, and only hurts the already loved franchise.
"When Chase is chasing Carmen" heh heh
Chase disappointed me the most. I mean he could have been an interesting character, and his character design was pretty good which didn't match his accent or characteristics. I think Jules didn't have much of a character either. She kind of let Chase do whatever he wanted even when she had a better idea of what to do.
I hope he gets character Development My man chase needs To be better I like him & hope this series Makes him A better character.
@@elongatedmanforever1252 Yeah I feel like he didn't suit the comedic relief character. It would have been more interesting if he was competent since that would add to the tension when he chases Carmen
Chase needs a Dramatic past That would make his character Intriguing.
The thing is I would like if Carmen was evil and tigress was the good guy That would cool if Their roles Were reversed. somehow Carmen turns evil by mind control Or Corruption I would really like for That to play if that happens.
Series finally concluded and I can say. Character and story arcs and development improved soo much throughout the series. It really found its identity the more it went on. It's definitely more memorable that a lot of other reboots. It even uses source materials in better ways than a lot of other reboots did.
You have to understand the villain, but that doesn't mean turn them into a hero
Voivoda Dracula but you can turn him into the hero of his own story only for him to turn into a villain then cut back to the original series where he is the antagonist of the hero. You can’t mess up a character of the character as we know him doesn’t even exist yet
Right! The villain needs to be understandable in that you have to understand why they feel the way they do and therefore take the course they take but that doesn't mean their behavior is justifiable or that we, as viewers, should agree with their behavior. In the case of Sleeping Beauty, we can understand why Maleficent was upset at being left out of Aurora's christening celebration because not being invited to a party is hurtful but we can't necessarily say that her decision to place a death curse on an innocent baby was justifiable because 1) the punishment didn't fit the crime and 2) she took her revenge out on Aurora, who was completely blameless, instead of just punishing King Stefan and the Queen directly.
you could do that iwth a carmen sandiego type character. she is sitll breaking the law and shit but for her own reasons.
maleficent, not so much. or at the very least you gotta make it she goes too fuckin far.
There are times where it makes sense when you have a villain turn good, but that usually happens in a long running series and something needs to happen to change that characters course. On the other hand, if you just take an established villain and turned them into an anti-hero or hero character, then it ruins both the characters previous establishment and purpose in the story. Seeing Carmen be a hero just does not work, she may as well just be a Netflix Kim Possible then, since Carmen is really no longer herself and is failing at trying to be like Lupin the Third.
Except Lupin was out for his own profit, he was still a criminal without any particular altruism behind his heists- Zenigata is in the right for trying to arrest him. This is Carmen just being the hero everything thinks is the villain.
CWDTrixie Yeah, a good example of that would be Discord from MLP:FiM. It makes sense to reform him because his motive for spreading chaos was to have fun, and he needed to find that there are other ways to do it. And Celestia knew there would be a way for him to use his chaos powers for good (which he's been doing more of lately, like in The Breakup Breakdown and The Beginning of the End). But for stuff like Maleficent...yeah, I call bullroar on that.
I really like the Carmen Sandiego reboot but it would have been more interested had they gone the villain route. I suppose they want their main character to be a positive role model. Still, we get tired of seeing the same good hearted protagonists fighting for good in every single show. This is why I'm excited for Cartoon Network's Villainous. Hopefully it does a good job putting antagonists in the spotlight.
At least the show is more interesting than the new she-ra and I wish there was more episodes because I was really enjoying it
I liked both honesty. I don't know why only 9 eps.
Luca Peyrefitte The animation is really nice. Shame everyone is bashing it for simply making Carmen a non antagonist.
I watched She-Ra because I ran out of Carmen Sandiego. Enjoyed both, but Carmen was definitely better.
she ra came out as garbage commercial... Carmen though i truly and really enjoyed... which actually surprised me
I honestly liked both- call me tasteless and lacking standards but I thought they were both fun
I personally like villains being turned into heros but so many people dont even know how to do it right.
Not to mention cant even make good heros....like if ya gotta ruin your hero to make the hero turned villain look better, then you probably shouldnt be using this trope.
I'm gonna use this whole turn villain good trope in one of my stories, but not a hero...nah the character I have in mind is too far gone now to be considered close to a hero...but at the same time I'm still keeping the good guys as they are and one bad guy that's evil just for the heck of it.
All the actual heroes are too busy being deconstructed into lazy, cowardly douchbags that fight each other over a perceived slight, while the villains are rewritten as heroes.
I did enjoy this series, though I agree that ACME and the detectives ended up getting the short stick, which is a shame, but looking at the show, it's obvious the showrunners love and understand and respect the Carmen Sandiego franchise and history, from names and lines ("I'm not a math detective") to not being ashamed of being an edutaintment show. I liked this one much more than She-Ra, where it seems like they neither know nor respect the source material at best, and seems to outright hate it at worst.
How I’d rewrite this: Carmen is the founder/leader of V.I.L.E, with a huge network of infamous thieves and Assassins. Because Carmen is still such a thrill seeker (I’d make her in her early 30s) she sets up these elaborate plans to steal valuable items all across the world. Her organization becomes such a problem that the worlds government join forces to create ACME. Filling ACME with their own special operatives to combat V.I.L.Es.
But things get a little too out of hand and most of V.I.L.Es agents take it too far and starts to assassinate their targets as well as some ACME agents. Carmen noticing this isn’t what she created her organization for puts her foot down, but inadvertently creates a coue, replacing Carmen, and “allegedly” killing her.VILE has been forever changed to the VILE we see in the reboot. While ACME desperately trying to combat VILE, one day mysteriously receives an encrypted code, that just says “Want to stop VILE? Let’s play a game...”
This sets into motion ACME creating a specialized task force to follow clues sent from this mysterious encrypted message, as each clue gives them a “one up” advantage against VILE. And with each clue sheds light on Carmen’s backstory. But unknown to the rest of ACME there is a traitor feeding info to VILE.
As for the task force: Chase would be the experience Agent that’s a little gruff, yet very competent in his ability to fight off assassin. He’s stoic and very not touchy-feely. Jewls would be Chase’s polar opposite, except that she’d be well experienced as well, but not as long as Chase. The two would have a very genuine partner relationship that can evolve into a really good Father-daughter one.
Zack and Ivy would be part of it, but they’re the one that would see little field action. They’re the super smart twins that would compliment Chase and jewels.
And Player would be the youngest of the group but an outside part that ACME brought in. He or she would act as the audience insert, and face would never be revealed. (I have a twist in mind that he/she’s been working for both ACME and Carmen this entire time)
And there’s your season one. Fixed it.
Damn, I'd watch it. Keeps the original in mind and continues it. Love.
Actually it would nto be so farfetched if it turns out that her mysterious mother is actually Carmen Sandiego from the original series and that this plot is what already went down for her.
Welcome to modern entertainment, where they don't realize just how incompetent they're making their main characters, because the only way they can defeat their antagonists is by making said antagonists into utter fools and morons.
@KuriousKoopa Troopa Because the Lefties in charge can't believe a woman can be evil, and want to preach their sick, twisted ideology to children.
KuriousKoopa Troopa there wasn't any tension in the old cartoon version as they was an episode where they literally work with Carmen and still couldn't catch her.
The original show wasn't about tension, it was simply about the chase itself as she literally steers them to her. There is a problem here in that this adaptation wants there to be tension, what with her having VILE hitmen coming after her as she works to topple them- but she's so overwhelmingly higher statted than everything else how can we actually expect she's ever really in danger?
Slitheringpeanut that's why i'm moving to anime...
That's not always the case.
Chief: Lmao we're so secret nobody can find us!
_Julia opens up a utility closet and finds these dumbasses inside_
Chief: D:
In the later seasons, Carmen notices (and exploits) how incompetent the Chief is
With Maleficent, there are so many things that could have been done better with that one part alone. Just off the top of my head, they could have made the fairies competent, or have Maleficent's curse automatically keep Aurora alive until until the prophecied day arrived.
Honestly this show was... boring to me I grew up with the where on earth is Carmen Sandiego TV show and even if you know shes most likely going to escape it was still fun to figure out her plan or watch the acme agents attempt to get her, honestly I enjoyed Carmen's character she always a step ahead of the agents and her own henchmen , this on the other hand is boring acme is incompetent , vile is a separate entity , Carmen is just a generic good guy, also the fact they basically took Zack and Ives characters and turned them into dumb henchmen,and don't even get me started on the new chief talk about missing his entire character yep the generic boring leader (seriously the most generic one shown) what Happened to the comedic optimistic chief from the animated series either way , this trend of bad guy turned good is getting old and boring
I agree. I didn't even grew up with the original show since I wasn't born back in the 80s or 90s but I decided to watch 1 episode of the reboot and then go to the originals. And WOW what a huge difference. The old show was about finding clues and hopping all around the world to catch Carmen, and now everything changed. Player is now working with instead of against Carmen and Zack and Ivy.... oh god they've been done so dirty smh. I enjoyed the original a lot more
I started to like it a bit but it is a generic villain hero vigilante story.
You have to feel for Carmen and Jules and the villains are super intelligent, harmful and insane, the acme agent chief is the black female stern leader and Chase is an incompetent narcissistic white male goofball who is so obsessed with finding and arresting Carmen.
The player is also an introverted so called radical kid who sits in his room all day helping her. Also being an expert at hacking. Also Zack and Ivy being hairbrained goofballs and just the help.
Sorry you didn't like it. It happens, I enjoyed it personally.
Series finally concluded and I got to say I loved both original and reboot series. I love the reboot because it wasn't trying to be the same as its predecessor. It is definitely one of the more memorable reboots, it even uses source materials in better ways than other reboots. Overall the series really found an identity as it went on, with character growth and relationships really being the strongest and most important aspects of the reboot.
Both Sly Cooper and Lupin III do this 'villain-as-hero' thing much better.
This one is 80% Kim possible 20% sly Cooper
@@charleswesthoff5954 Or maybe 70% KP, 20% Sly and 10% Lara Croft...
Kim possible had villains still as vllains. And shego was great.
You know, I can’t help but to feel like there’s an anti-man thing going on with Chase. Being so negative to Jewel for no reason, the incompetence you talked about, the fact that he’s not good with technology. It’s pretty much the same thing that 2016 Ghostbusters did, they made every man stupid or evil for no reason, and it’s being done to Chase, the average straight white male.
But as for villains turning into heroes, that does ruin a lot of things especially for a reboot show. I haven’t seen Maleficent, but from you said, if it was just her being sympathetic in her origin story I could handle that. But I didn’t like the idea of this show making the obvious villain into a hero before and I still don’t like it now
It's always a little political these days because they need a punching bag of incompetence to laugh at. This is a trope of the feminist handbook of entertainment these days: you have to have an incompetent goofy manly character to make your female protagonist look better than him in every way.
And I can give you an example why they don't want a competent character instead: you get a Poe Dameron scenario. What does he have to do with this? Everything, pretty much, Poe was written to be this one quick role character to be killed off. But when they realized that the character is actually competent and useful, suddenly the script is changed and he instantly becomes a favorite. Even more like!ble to the fans than the main female protagonist in some cases.
I Saw "Maleficent" and is so awful and bored, she is not Maleficent at all, plus, the fairies who were nice in the original, here were exasperating and looked really ugly in their fairy form, and the evil character was a white heterosexual man (the father of sleeping beauty) who had not development at all.
Tío Zorro
Well, there goes my chances of watching that movie
Julia you mean? 😅
This idea ignores that (spoilers if you care) the samurai guy in VILE was trying to stop her from joining their evil organization the whole time
"In the streets of Argentina" omg my country always there in the background lol
It becomes more prominently featured in the later seasons
Seriously? What's next? Having The Joker fight for justice?
The "everyone is a winner" and "everyone gets a participation medal" mentality not only hurts people but fictional characters as well. Not being able to have a good or average written story is derivative of those kind of thinking.
A good story needs a villain you can hate, a hero that's not a Mary Sue and good character development for your story to work otherwise it just ends in the lame fanfiction bin.
You can make a good story without using a villain you can hate, some of the best stories ever told are the ones were the role of the protagonist and antagonist arent so black and white, but granted those types of stories are really hard to write.
@@saviox8197 True, but a villain you loathe is more malleable. You can make him even eviler, or make him do a heel face turn or an anti-villain like in DB or a villain that likes to poke the poodle is sympathetic like in L.O.S.E. or a punch clock villain like Megamind.
But making villains heroes just for the sake of it isn't a good idea. You need to have a reason for your story to push through good and bad times, for your characters (good and bad) to develop themselves as the story goes on. Sadly now we have lame stories with only Mary Sue protagonists and villains that aren't such and poor overall writing skills, like you can attest in all the recent NPC shill mainstream media...
@@egregiousprevaricator8659 Oh yeah i know what you mean i actually really love the thrope of the villain that you "love to hate" when its done well and yeah making characters that were villains in previous series into heroes makes no sence to me in a reboot, because then the whole point of the villain turning hero catharsis gets lost since the whole story its rebooted and nothing that happened in the previous series its canon.
Its a whole new story that has nothing to do with the others and in the case of Carmen Sandiego the character its so different and changed that it doesnt even feel like the same character anymore.
@@saviox8197 Exactly my (our) main point of view mate. They are ruining legacy characters because they aren't capable of writing anything remotely new or interesting anymore. Those people not only stand in the works of others to get recognition (in a bad way), they piss and destroy things we still like just for the evulz. That's why we mostly don't like these "new and lame" iterations of IPs from the 80s and 90s.
@@egregiousprevaricator8659 Yeah if this reboots were good and respected the original i am sure a lot less people would complian about them, and by "respecting the original" i mean more than just giving a few characters the names of other characters from the previous series as a "reference".
To me Where on Earth Carmen was always an anti-villain, yes she’s doing it for the thrill and is ultimately selfish but she’s got a strong moral compass that means she never hurts people. Game Carmen could be more villainous. But I don’t think she’s improved by being made into a hero because what made her intriguing in the first place was that she was a powerful adversary.
I think turning a villain into a hero can work, but only for certain villains and you can’t do it at the expense of the former heroes, as these examples do, or by conveniently forgetting all the bad things a character has done, as Wicked does.
I actually think that Carmen San Diego is more like Kaito Kid. Kaito Kid is also neither a villlan, he does steal stuff for fun but he has a mission to find out why his dad died and tries to find a gen inside a gem.
I was hoping someone would mention Kaito Kid. :D
I am kind sick of them trying to turn every villain into an antihero.
Personally I think this works for Carmen. In treasure of knowledge it kind of suspected that she might have a larger goal
Make villains evil again!
Except Carmen was never actually evil. She was just a thief who stole for fun. In the original material she stole things, but never intended to hurt anyone during her heists and was willing to team up with people to take down people who were worse than she was.
Nooooooo! What have they done to Zack & Ivy?!
Apparently they just eated junk food since their last show ended.
Damn they look awful.
@@tiozorro7853 oh well, at least Carmen looks nice.
@@lavenderplace8591 Not if you saw the original Carmen Sandiego, to my she looks like a fan doing a cosplay of Carmen.
@@tiozorro7853 I've seen the original Sandiego, what I meant was at least Carmen looks pretty. Although, Carmen's Old Design still awesome.
I think the whole villain is a good guy or good girl thing has a lot of potential but I think the concept is way stronger when its done with original characters I mean look at peridot from steven universe and kevin from the original ben 10 they actually make it work really well
Those are totally different concepts. Kevin and Peridot are villains that where redeemed and became good. This new trend is taking villains and rewriting them as heroes from the start. To write a "villain is a good guy/girl" with an original character is a Villain Protagonist.
Ok you have a pretty good point there
IF you think about it, this turning villians into heroes trend goes on pretty much since frozen. It's stopped being unique a long time ago and getting kinda annoying at this point. Also is it me, or this mostly just done with female villains?
My little pony movie for example. Two villains. One became a new friend the other one got smashed into pieces...
Even though the former was more imitating and vicious than the latter...
Well Frozen was really the twist villain trend that started to became more predictable afterwards, but yeah
That really bugged me. Not the heel-face turn, (that's to be expected from the subject matter), but the quality of the principal antagonist. The guy who brought the world to it's knees, the top of the evil food chain, was basically Joffrey. I just can't take Joffrey seriously, and the stakes in the movie felt lower than in most of the season finales because of it. The GoH Fan Series figure of him looks great though. Like, if I wasn't familiar with the character, I'd think he was probably a quality villain.
It's not just Disney, but a lot of other films have twist villains. The reason why I liked DreamWorks movies is that they DON'T go the twist villain route. Tai Lung, Dragos, Shen, Charming and Fairy Godmother, and a few others were straight up villains that have personality and even backstories we sympathize with but at the same time we know it does not excuse their terrible actions and they're awesome villains (although I personally think Charming shouldn't have been a villain he worked better as comic relief).
Now that ya mention it, DreamWorks does pretty well with most of their villains. They're not always the most scary or villainous (except Mrs. Tweddy, she gave me a few nightmares as a kid 😅), but I do love seeing them and the heroes/protagonists interacting. Favorites are Eris (naturally chaotic), Shen (tragic and graceful), Dave from Penguins of Madagascar (yeah not intimidating, but I love his personality!), and Mrs. Tweddy (think she'll be haunting my dreams soon).
I actually like She-ra and Carmen on netflix, instead of looking at it like "Oh they changed so much" I feel we should look at it as a stand alone story. By itself it's a story with a compelling set of villains and heroes, funny characters that have interesting backstories themselves. And some cool callbacks.
You know I can see Netflix's She-Ra and Carmen Sandiego being alternated universes from their original sources whilst having callbacks to said originals too.
How the heck are you gonna provide incentive for kids to go and play Carmen Sandiego educational games if you re-write her as a heroic character, completely undermining the whole GOAL of said games?
Any great villain needs to believe they are in the right and have a sympathetic side. It only makes their villainous flaws more tragic and lends depth to the story. But when the good side actually outweighs the bad, it undercuts the intended purpose.
Old heroes being dumbed down to make the new heroes look cooler?.... (CoughDisneyStarWarsCough!)
Good point but honestly...I loved the show!
It´s obvious Chase is a stand-in for Zenigata here, explaining his thick-headness and relentlessly pursuit of Carmen and I´m cool with that, he´s fun to watch and he manages to pull a good one on the finale.
I think the show is well written so all the changes work so I personally have zero problems.
Surprised you didn´t mention though that the show does something "negative" which is portraying countries in the "theme park" version of them. one person on twitter was really angry at ep 4, again I personally have no problem with it, grew up with tintin and indiana who weren´t exactly accurate either so...
I think Chase and Jules have a theoretically good relationship, with Chase being the impulsive, quick to act member and Jules being the more rational but slower to act one. You're quite right though that Chase is played up as too incompetent, instead of focusing on how his haste, while it has its drawbacks, IS what gets him so close to Carmen, for example.
I enjoy a good villain. It makes a story so much fun! With villains becoming heroes, more often times than not, the story becomes boring for me. Idk why a heroic villain is so popular. Why can't characters just be bad and/or evil just for the sake of it?
The only one story that I remember that did that very well was megamind.
A hero villan only works with the bad villan type. The one that tried to be villainous but really bad at it. Like Ludo, The Ice King, Doof (cause dang it, his name is too hard to write), Lord Hater can be a hero cause they are already suck at being bad. Not the villan mastermind turn into some lame hero. Heck, some legit villan have more tragic backstory and it work better than turning them good.
2 reasons: 1) the idea of redemption is an insanely popular one, especially in fiction. I mean, think about it - whether we realise it or not, our view of how the world works is greatly shaped by the media we consume. So the idea that if you do something you consider to be terrible, but which you still have a chance of becoming a good person? It's an inherently reassuring and uplifting message. And villainous redemption stories aren't exactly a new thing - they just happen to be the current trend (possibly because of how crap everything in the world seems right now, people think they need this kind of "happy" message in their stories).
2) There's a frankly infuriating thought right now that villains need to somehow be "relatable" or "understandable". Because apparently it's not realistic for someone to just be an awful person, despite a *lot* of evidence otherwise. No, there's always a reason they do what they do - often it comes down to some variation of "troubled childhood" or "betrayed by someone/something they trusted". This in itself isn't necessarily bad but the problem is that people then often tend to mistake that for a justification for their actions because if their daddy beat them 50 times a day from the day they were born then how could they possibly be expected to learn that killing dozens of people is a bad thing to do..? But...we know that killing dozens of people is bad so...let's just make sure that those people *totally* deserved it anyway. Personally, I'd much rather have the version of a "heroic villain" where they 100% know what they're doing is wrong but still feel it's what they have to do for whatever reason (they think it's better that way/they're somehow forced into it/generic revenge purposes) than one that's never that villainous to begin with.
@@overlydramaticpanda But still, being abused or neglect isn't the right "excuse" for being bad. Heck, look at Batman. His parents get killed when he was young and did he try to kill others parents because of it? No. He might have some questionable action but his goal is always try to prevent it ever happen to anyone else
@@duykhangtran4406 Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you. It's just the reason a lot of villains are given for behaving the way they do (and let's face it, there are a lot of real life precedents for it). And it's not an inherently bad decision to write a villain with a tragic backstory, as long as you keep them as a villain, which is the real problem here.
For example, in The Phantom Of The Opera (the original novel), the Phantom is given a frankly horrific backstory, but he's still never presented as being justified in taking the actions he does. The backstory is just an explanation, not a justification nor an excuse. He's still undeniably the villain - one you can sympathise with, sure, but definitely not one you're supposed to side with. People nowadays seem to be unable to find that balance.
I burst out laughing at this line: “They’re like conspiracy theorists… with a really big budget”.
Honesty I really like the the dynamic of Carmen Sandiago. But some things in the video you'll need to see season 2 to understand some of these things like with chase he really isn't in the second season only having small cutaways from time to time which is why Zack and Ivy have most of the comic relief and yes they actually are speculative of Carmen working for VILE and VILE wondering if she is working for ACME and it gives a sense of confusion in a good way but then again you still have to acknowledge the fact that this is an edu-action mystery type show and that the main purpose is to one educate and two entertain
I think it doesn't really take the education part that seriously, theres like a 1 minute long section in a 27 minute long episode that explains only where the country is and basic facts about it, nothing of what they wont teach you in geography classes.
When I watched Netflix's Carmen Sandiego, I felt her backstory disconnected to the portrayal of her being this mysterious thief. I wasn't aware of Carmen's video game origins, but it makes sense to me of why it stuck out so much to me. She didn't need a complex background to be compelling. Moreover, I probably would've been more interested in seeing them stick to a villainous Carmen. Carmen can still be a main character if the story followed the French guy. Not knowing Carmen's intentions creates a more interesting mystery and hook.
Why am I not the least bit surprised by the way they portrayed Chase, the white male character?
In this version, Jules is more timid, soft-spoken... Which makes her a great choice for an Interpol street agent. Same for the brash guy who can't even call for backup. Makes total sense. (Fwiw I didn't actually watch this reboot because they lost me at "secret thief high school").
I personaly LOVE Malificent movies. They are in my eye wonderfull fairytails with a Heart and Soul. The rekationship between Aureora and Malificent is touching and heartwarming. You can tell that Malificent isn't really evil and everything she does is (as the movie itself tells us) out of misery and hatred, which Aureora helped her understand and be an anchor she so desperatly needed.
As for the fairies I never saw them as incompetent but simple goofy. Comic relief. Old school type of jokey characters. No bad would come Aureoras way because, as I wrote earlier, Maleficent was watching over her. That was sweet, full of heart.
Both movies are the best modern fairytales that come out of recent times. Ones very close to my heart.
Glad to see someone else really enjoying those movies! 😄
@@sweetoil2952
I truly do.
I thought that the way they made these movies was a sign of things to come for their other Fairytales: tell the story from the perspective of a villian with a twist.
I call this trend of making villains into heroic characters "Wicked Syndrome". Now, I've never read or seen Wicked, but I imagine the story was executed much better in the book/musical than other villain POV stories that followed (with the exception of Twisted, which was fantastic).
I don't like this trend, let bad guys be evil, and let good guys be righteous, don't make the good guys like the bad guys or the bad guys seem like good guys, and if you are going to make a villain a hero do it all the way, not half way, there is nothing in between, either there are villains or heroes, nothing more.
Cobra Kai did the whole bully turned misunderstood anti-hero better. Because it's not only set in reality, but because it made sense seeing Johnny Laurence perspective being bullied by Laruco.
6:52 "They're more like conspiracy theorists with a really high budget." Alright, now I want a reaction image of the chief striking the Giorgio Tsoukalos pose and saying "I'm not saying it was V.I.L.E, but it was totally V.I.L.E!!!"
Are you going to review all the episodes of Carmen?
well there 9 episodes and she almost with she-ra so maybe later
Did anyone else feel a slight anti-men vibe? I'll try & generalize for spoilers but if possible watch the series 1st. Chase came off as a mansplainner so that when he goofed up afterwards it would be "funnier". While both Zach & Ivy were downgraded Zach's food thing diminished him & Ivy made some woman not man quip that added to my theory. Even VILE's dynamic had the issue with Shadow-san (possible spoiler- in the beginning) being mean & always overruled. They didn't focus as much on the other male teacher. I felt they were using this to boost Carmen's goodness, but I was also disappointed that it brought Carmen down that she didn't face equals & Jules down since she didn't stick up for herself. I honestly thought Coach Brunt was 1 of the most interesting characters throughout the whole series with how she was handled. BTW Chase did something in the last episode that I thought was cool of him.
Did you finish the season? Shadow-san ended being cool as fuck. Lol it isn't anti-men. Zack was just a comic relief character while Player was smart and very chill. So how is it anti-men?
They dumbed down the antagonists in Star Wars too, and, as you said, to the detriment to the heroes. What accomplishment is it when they triumph over them?
And, yes, I dislike this new trend of turning villains into the good guys.
Anyone correct me if I’m wrong but,In the book, it explains why chase acted rudely to Julia. Basically he was intimidated by how smart she was with so little experience. He also wanted to be the one who caught Carmen, so that might be why he didn’t call for backup. In the first pages it said how chase had not slept and barely ate because he thought about catching Carmen.
Carmen Sandiego's backstory is basically Bruce Wayne and The League of Shadows in Batman Begins
There's a place for villains for reform occasionally. It's a great trope if not worn out. Unfortunately, something else is going on here. Watching Maleficent recently for the first time, I was struck by how they made her into a heroine not by having her face her demons and choose to change, but simply by spinning the story so she wasn't evil after all. I'm sorry, but this approach feels like the Eden serpent explaining to Eve who he's not evil at all. Why, it's just that he's misunderstood. Good grief. Lol.
Chase is a character which could have gotten more interesting if he learned from his mistakes and trained, coming closer to catching Carmen with each chase, upping the stakes for her, giving her a reason to improve as well.
I just realized who Chase reminded me of. Inpector Clousea from the Pink Panther movies. But without an actor like Peter Sellers it's very difficult to make such a character work.
Admittedly, while I liked the Carmen Sandiego series, I also thought it was a weird choice for Carmen to be the hero working against VILE. I think I would have preferred a descending into darkness plot rather than the heroic arc the series went with. A villain origin story is totally fine, but it’s almost as if the people who make them are afraid to let villains be evil just because they’re the main character. Villains are SUPPOSED to be bad.
I’d rather have tv show protagonists that are villainous
I've never watch the original Carmen Sandiego so when I watched the original after the reboot,I was surprise with all the changes that the reboot had made. I mean,I don't hate it but the two are definitely giving me different experience and opinions on the character.
Oh my God! At the very end you said that you felt like the new Carmen Sandiego was very much a product of its time, I watched the entire season yesterday and had the exact same thought!!
There's just so much about it from the characterization to the plot lines to the animation style that just scream "This is from the late 2010's"
I'm not fond of the trend mainly because the new versions get conflated with the originals. Everyone now thinks the Wicked Witch of the West was some tragic figure who was actually the good guy all along because of Wicked, when no, she's genuinely a malicious and evil person in the book. She's a simple, fundamentally evil character, there were 3 other witches like her, one for each cardinal direction, along with one Good Witch counterbalancing them. The reimagining disregards so much of the original Baum material and people now conflate it with the source. We see the same thing with Malificent- she goes from being one of Disney's most beloved villains to a tragic and betrayed victim who was secretly the true hero of the story, and people take that movie as the "true" story of the original... I don't understand why bad guys can't just be bad guys anymore- not everything needs overly complex villains with harrowing backstories that make their villainous ways morally just.
As you describe in this, ACME is entirely superfluous in this adaptation- Carmen is the hero now, and since she can't lose she's now just fighting bad guys on top of extraneous good guy antagonists. There doesn't end up being any tension when she's set from the get go as unstoppable and we see even the supposed best from the lawful factions are grossly out of their league.
On a different matter, it didn't occur to me until you described their actions, but the show basically turned Chase into another "white men are all belligerent assholes" character didn't they? He's rather abusive to Jules, who is now a helpless meek lamb before him.
Not quite. There were four witches: The Witch of the East, the Witch of the North the Witch of the South and the Witch of the West. Of these four, only the Witch of the South, Glinda, is actually named so far as I can recall, but the Witches of South and North and good and the witches of the West and East, wicked.
No, there's a good and wicked for each direction, they appear in the later books, most of them anyway. All 4 Wickeds were characters to some degree, and there were Goods for the North and South who made in person appearances. The Wicked Witch of the North was named Mombi, she's the one who enslaved King Pastoria, and kidnapped Princess Ozma & turned her into the boy, Tip. She was the main antagonist for The Marvelous Land of Oz. It was Mombi removing the royal family of Oz that allowed the four wicked witches to conquer and divide the land into their own realms, once you account for the 'wizard's" involvement being retconned out. After being defeated she appeared a few more times in later stories before finally being executed by water in The Lost King of Oz (not a Baum written book but Ruth Plumly Thompson followed his canon).
The Wicked Witch of the South wasn't named iirc and was overthrown by Glinda, the Good Witch of the South. The movie combined the Good Witches of the North and South into one character and has Glinda do most of the things the northern good witch did in the Wonderful Wizard of Oz. The northern good witch is the one who eventually defeats Mombi and frees Gillikin Country from her, though she was not strong enough to do the same to the Wicked Witch of the East, who was offed by Dorothy's house falling on her.
@@gtf234 I was working from the first book, as I've not read the others since I was in elementary school. In that one, there are four witches: East and West are wicked (and dead by book's end), North and South are good.
Thank you I could not for the life of me remember if the southern wicked was named in any book, nor do I recall if she ever appeared in person- not that it mattered for the point I was originally making but I appreciate the assist for clarity. A lot of the characters were like this in that they were referenced by a title once or twice but then never given actual names until other authors started working with the IP, with many not being consistent from source to source.
Have any of you guys even seen the musical or read the book they’re very different and Alphaba does lose her mind at the end of the book and the musical questioned the nature of evil and I talked about the dangers of scapegoating somebody and the abuse of power and you guys are forgetting the wizard did play a part in the Ozma affair he wanted absolute power so got rid of them and you’re not whining about him when l Frank Baum stated it himself do you not even mention books like wide Sargasso Sea or Grendel those books are considered classics in their own right and there villain retellings I don’t think you should judge the entire story retelling genre by maleficent and this show and honestly I didn’t feel wicked was writing fanfiction it felt like it was expanding on it .
The trend...can be tiring, but that's mostly because we don't understand what they're ACTUALLY doing. They're not just saying "I know they were villains, but lets market them as hereos." What they're doing is saying that there are two sides to every story and we've just only seen the one over and over again. In the brilliant musical Wicked, it's a prequel that follows the "Wicked" Witch till the events of Wizard of Oz and a little beyond. It says everything we know is only one part of a story we were meant to hear. Same case for Maleficent (though not executed AS well as Wicked), the Sleeping Beauty story is the desired perspective by the King with Prince Phillip waking Aurora and defeating an all evil Maleficent. The new film is talking about what happened from her perspective in that she WAS evil, but for good reason and ultimately redeems herself.
As for Carmen Sandiego, it's telling a Robin Hood tale of a young Carmen who is pure at heart but still a thrill for adventure that's arguably MORE fascinating to what was previously established. It's not Netflix disrespecting the lore as it is improving on a franchise that honestly lost a lot of momentum heading into the 21st century. It creates a far more compelling character to follow in a TV Series who is still a trill seeker at times. As for Chase, they used him perfectly for this transition by making him believe what we used to believe was Carmen. He's to make us realize that it's ridiculous to think of Carmen as anything more than an anti-hero (which she always kinda was). As for Julia.....this is just her arc. She will one day become more confident and not put up with ACME's and Chase's stubbornness to where she might join Carmen.
All in all I think it's far more interesting to follow a character like Carmen (2019) who had a set agenda, motive to do so, and a create personality rather than the constant struggle to catch another basic criminal mastermind like it's always been in the past for her.
I respect your opinion and agree with some points. Hopefully mine will also be respected
Okay.
Because now villains are not evil, they are "society opressed people". When there is no villains, there is no heroes anymore.
Why bother making Carmen the hero? A competent female villain with more ambiguous morality is a great character. If they want a real force of evil to fight, then just have Carmen be an independent entity and let VILE act as the real evil faction. Carmen could even occasionally work with the ACME detectives when it benefits them both to show that she’s not really evil, just selfish.
Now that would be awesome. And I totally see Carmen helping out ACME in protecting some priceless artifact, then immediately turning around and
taking it for herself
Oh and steven universe!! The ultimate making villians now heros only because they just misunderstood fools. My god...
The only real villain by definition was Pink Diamond. Being responsible for the entire mess that SU is cleaning up and they try to make her sympathetic.
@@certaingloom3797 I KNOW, RIGHT!!! Lol that show man... what a train wreck, only if it had a better writer and team.
WD, the big bad of the series, had loads of Potential to be a great villain, but of course, she gets a bloody "redemption" and has seen the error if her ways. BS!! She mind controlled half the cast and she is forgiven at the end?! What?
Here is the problem they did think this would be the last episode. So of course they had to be rushed. Also it's not to say there will still not be any issues. There is still the movie and Season 6
@@AmiMizuno2 what, it was messed up from day one. You are making zero sense.
The thing is, people love villains, often more than they love the hero. But we love them for how delightfully evil they are, because let's be real, everyone has that devilish streak in them somewhere that enjoys seeing a great bad guy. When you take away that evil, they become boring and it's just not fun anymore. It can be fun to see a villain team up with the hero every now and then, but by the end of the episode we're gonna want to see them backstab the hero. And whenever a villain is reformed, it's usually pretty clear early on that they aren't all that evil at their core, so the enjoyment comes from seeing their inner struggle. If you just swap the black hat for a white one, you just end up with another dime-a-dozen hero with no villain to work off of, or at best a pathetically written villain just to fill that void.
To quote ProJared, Carmen Sandiego is like a "sexy reverse Batman," and that's what makes her interesting. Making her heroic just makes her boring.
You only get satisfied when a villan that aren't completely evil turn into the hero (Phineas and Ferb) and not the one that are truly evil (Sleeping Beauty) I love how when the protagonist defeat the bad guy straight up giving the bad guy a chance to redeem and then they say screw it and left cause they're clearly not gonna change and didn't force them to change even if it's the series/season finale (looking at you Steven Universe)
Thats the reason why zuko is argumently the most like avatar character. He is kind of a redeemed villain without ever being a villain. But he gets lines like "When i was hunting aang, ..." with the gaang. And is planned as sympathic from the start.
At least they're not like the DreamWorks Dragons show were they took
a great villain 'Alvin the Treacherous' and make a goodie two shoes that
has no purpose other than pissing off the old gen HTYD fans.
Cause we're supposed to like the guy that was the viking equivalent of
Hannibal Lector/ Adolf Hitler apparently.
Netflix totally misses the point with Carmen Sandiego. I don't believe they were ever fans.
I never watched the old Carmen but if your able to take away the old from the new, then the new is pretty fantastic. I think the world is well built and the characters are good and l personally love Chase because he has his problems and his need to do anything possible to get attention from superiors. Sometimes people are incompetent and idiots, just like real life. It was enjoyable for me.
I never understand reboots like the Carmen Sandiego one.
They want brand recognition but it’s aimed at kids, not the adults who actually know/like about Carmen Sandiego.
At that point just make an new IP and make it good.
Avoid controversial backlash and create a successful new beloved IP (see Steven Universe, Gravity Falls, Adventure Time, Amazing World of Gumball, etc.).
Please tell me Noelle Stevenson has nothing to do with this reboot.
While this one doesn't seem to suffer from the CalArts Style Syndrome of animation, it still reminds me very much of an old facebook game called It Girl.
A kids cartoon with a villain protagonist will be awesome.
Honestly, the reason why i like Carmen, is she is chaotic in nature, is just in the original, she chaotic neutral at best, but in the new one she just chaotic good. But i agreed with what they do to acme, i think death note is the best example of thrill of the conflict ( ie. L vs. Light)
I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I really like this version of Carmen Sandiego. Maybe it’s because I’m young, but I just find her backstory makes more sense in the modern version.
They are obviously trying to make Carmen better by making her good, all the while completely ignoring everything that made Carmen Sandiego Carmen. Like with He-Ra, they completely ignored everything that made She-Ra, She-Ra, in the name of progressivism, and somehow managed to make a show about friendship without the slightest understanding of what friendship actually is. As has been mentioned, Maleficent literally mean villainous. They could not possible make a new character to fill whatever niche role they were looking for, (which, for Maleficent, seems to be Merida and Queen Elinor from Brave). They don't seem to understand that these shitty attempts to reform the villainess doesn't make them better, it just robs them of their agency. Carmen Sandiego went from a a self-made woman whom was a worldwide threat to someone who had to be spoonfed villainy.
Every villain believes they are the hero of their story.
While being an absolute hypocrite
I honestly loved the show, there are problems but i still like it.
I am conflicted about this new show I don't like how the original acme detectives are now idiots and jerks and all sound and act so differently. However the Carmen/player dynamic is good and I always saw Carmen as more catwoman then Joker.
One note is this one interpretation does not change all the others. It's the same way one can enjoy the revolving door of James Bonds, Batmans, and Spider-Mans. Interpretation changes how we see these characters and we all have our favorite and our despised interpretation.
I agree that making villains more heroic and making our original heroes incompetent or rude is problematic. It causes motives and morality to be called into question. Grey characters can be fun but often times I like a simple good vs evil matchup. My problem with infinity war is they tried to make Thanos sympathetic, he is there big bad and should have been treated as such. As for Carmen her interpretation has adapted over the past decades and who know what comes next. Enjoy having her back, and revisit the classics and judge for yourselves which version you prefer.
Thanos is always regarded as the Big Bad in Infinity War. Ghost, from Ant-Man and the Wasp, is an example of a sympathetic villain in the MCU.
I think the main problem with the "good" carmen.... is that there is absolutely no reason for her to be good... she was raised by evil people on an island of evil since a baby... how does she even know what good or "right" is... it shouldn't be possible at all for her to know this.
although i still do like the good carmen anyways... even if it makes no sense its still a good story to have a good thief.
Well she never took issue with casually stealing things as pranks in the beginning. However, she wasn't particularly taught to do evil from what I can see. Thus I think she'd still have a moral compass of sorts.
I watched some Carmen episodes. I loved the backstory in Vile with her as a kid, but when it went back to present day in the story, I didn't like it as much.
The art is gorgeous though, I love the unique style. But the story flows a bit strangely. Again, I loved the backstory, and younger Carmen. She was a better character than present day Carmen, imo. I'd watch a whole show with her in Vile still as a kid and learning, as she slowly grew up as the episodes went on.
And yeah, Jules is a pushover. I'd prefer her to be more serious and headstrong, although there's nothing wrong with a timid character (My favorite characters are usually timid ones, like Fluttershy or Lilly from Alpha and Omega) I feel like a different character would have fit that role better.
I actually watched the netflix one recently. Youve compelled me to go and do a side by side since i got no past exiperience with the old material though it was in my era.