I rip on Sorkin a lot, but here he nailed it. This scene casts a totally different light on a conversation between Bartlet and Hoynes back in S1, when Hoynes finally erupts from Bartlet treating him like garbage, and Bartlet growls, "You shouldn't have made me beg." The assumption is that the fault was Hoynes's...but now we see that his reaction isn't entirely unjustified. (Also, in the script the scene goes on: Bartlet leaves to stretch his legs, Abbey's standing there alone, and then a shaken Mrs. Landingham enters from another room and asks, "What does 'relapsing remitting' mean?" I wish that had stayed in the episode.
There were two books published called THE WEST WING SCRIPT BOOK, the first one featuring a selection of scripts from S1 and S2, and the other from S3 and S4. This episode from S3, "Bartlet for America", is in the book, and that's where the additional part can be read. If you like Sorkin's writing, I recommend the books; not only do you get to see a lot of the differences between what was written and what wound up being aired, you get a better sense of Sorkin's structure in individual episodes.
Makes you wonder how Bartlet would have responded if he was the one in Hoynes' position. As for Hoynes keeping his mouth shut, the man was shown to have some integrity. However, there was likely some cold blooded ambition mixed in. If he had run to the press and spilled the beans then the Dems would have been in disarray and the Republicans likely would have won. He'd get some blame as the man who squealed, which would have killed his future aspirations. Of course, he ultimately did that to himself anyway.
Once Hoynes had a think about it as well, he'd realise there was a pretty good chance that either Bartlet's condition would either remove him from presidency (leaving it Hoynes) or it would come out during the presidency that Bartlet had concealed his condition...possibly leaving the presidency to Hoynes. Once he settled down, he probably realised this was a good deal. No-one would put money on Bartlet finishing two terms.
Sheer arrogance on the part of Bartlet. Did he honestly assume that Hoynes wouldn't have any problem with Bartlet's hiding his illness during the campaign, accept defeat as it was, and happily accept the VP candidacy? If Bartlet did, that fact alone would represent a serious lack of proper judgement. After storming out, Hoynes could have easily found some microphones and announced what he just said, but he didn't. One may say it was out of his own integrity. Anyway, I'm 100 percent with Hoynes in this particular scene.
I dunno. Would you have rather had a healthy sleazeball running for president? Later episodes reveal exactly what kind of man Hoynes is, and he has absolutely no moral or ethical room to judge Bartlet.
You're forgetting the part where it's implied that due to his illness, there's a very good chance he'd be handing the presidency to the VP in the future, either through the nomination at the next DNC convention and election, or through the line of succession if he was forced to resign.
@@tspencer227 That is a valid point. Yet in the world of politics, nothing could be promised, and nothing could be taken for granted. Bartlet never openly promised Hoynes that he will be stepping down after his first term(at least not on-screen), and Hoynes, at this particular point in time, had no reason to either assume or expect that Bartlet would make any selfless decision in Hoynes' favor at any point in the future.
Not necessarily. Most people would kill to be VP. He probably assumed Hoynes would jump at the chance. Especially once he knew he could be closer to the presidency than most people thought. But hoynes was so mad that Bartlett didn’t disclose it prior to the campaign that he didn’t realize what he had been offered.
While anger and indignation are certainly understandable in this situation, the fundamental problem with Hoynes was always exactly what we see in this scene. He viewed the nomination, and ultimately the presidency as his personally. While he was happy to fight for it, he never really believed he needed to earn it.
Bartlet never showed Hoynes any respect. It was one obvious flaw in his character, an inability to hide when he did not like someone. And it was never made clear why he disliked Hoynes so much.
Hoynes figured out eventually that Bartlet's MS probably means Hoynes will be president after one term, if not sooner. But his first reaction is telling: "Which you never mentioned during the campaign?" He immediately recognized that if primary voters had known of Jed's condition, Hoynes would be the nominee instead. We the viewers are primed to take Bartlet's side and hate Hoynes, but even we have to admit that Jed willingly lied by omission to win the nomination and the election.
![The West Wing: Chaos at the Convention [CLIP] | TNT](/img/n.gif)
I rip on Sorkin a lot, but here he nailed it. This scene casts a totally different light on a conversation between Bartlet and Hoynes back in S1, when Hoynes finally erupts from Bartlet treating him like garbage, and Bartlet growls, "You shouldn't have made me beg." The assumption is that the fault was Hoynes's...but now we see that his reaction isn't entirely unjustified. (Also, in the script the scene goes on: Bartlet leaves to stretch his legs, Abbey's standing there alone, and then a shaken Mrs. Landingham enters from another room and asks, "What does 'relapsing remitting' mean?" I wish that had stayed in the episode.
Was that a deleted scene?
How do you know it was in the script?
☮
@@jbonnett1225 no, it's a flashback, season 3, somewhere between episodes ~10-17, I think
Where did you get a script? Can I download it somewhere?)
There were two books published called THE WEST WING SCRIPT BOOK, the first one featuring a selection of scripts from S1 and S2, and the other from S3 and S4. This episode from S3, "Bartlet for America", is in the book, and that's where the additional part can be read. If you like Sorkin's writing, I recommend the books; not only do you get to see a lot of the differences between what was written and what wound up being aired, you get a better sense of Sorkin's structure in individual episodes.
Makes you wonder how Bartlet would have responded if he was the one in Hoynes' position.
As for Hoynes keeping his mouth shut, the man was shown to have some integrity. However, there was likely some cold blooded ambition mixed in. If he had run to the press and spilled the beans then the Dems would have been in disarray and the Republicans likely would have won. He'd get some blame as the man who squealed, which would have killed his future aspirations. Of course, he ultimately did that to himself anyway.
Once Hoynes had a think about it as well, he'd realise there was a pretty good chance that either Bartlet's condition would either remove him from presidency (leaving it Hoynes) or it would come out during the presidency that Bartlet had concealed his condition...possibly leaving the presidency to Hoynes. Once he settled down, he probably realised this was a good deal. No-one would put money on Bartlet finishing two terms.
Jed, that was Eric Stratton, Rush Chairman. He was damn glad to meet ya!
Sheer arrogance on the part of Bartlet. Did he honestly assume that Hoynes wouldn't have any problem with Bartlet's hiding his illness during the campaign, accept defeat as it was, and happily accept the VP candidacy? If Bartlet did, that fact alone would represent a serious lack of proper judgement. After storming out, Hoynes could have easily found some microphones and announced what he just said, but he didn't. One may say it was out of his own integrity. Anyway, I'm 100 percent with Hoynes in this particular scene.
I dunno. Would you have rather had a healthy sleazeball running for president? Later episodes reveal exactly what kind of man Hoynes is, and he has absolutely no moral or ethical room to judge Bartlet.
You're forgetting the part where it's implied that due to his illness, there's a very good chance he'd be handing the presidency to the VP in the future, either through the nomination at the next DNC convention and election, or through the line of succession if he was forced to resign.
@@tspencer227 That is a valid point. Yet in the world of politics, nothing could be promised, and nothing could be taken for granted. Bartlet never openly promised Hoynes that he will be stepping down after his first term(at least not on-screen), and Hoynes, at this particular point in time, had no reason to either assume or expect that Bartlet would make any selfless decision in Hoynes' favor at any point in the future.
Not necessarily. Most people would kill to be VP. He probably assumed Hoynes would jump at the chance. Especially once he knew he could be closer to the presidency than most people thought. But hoynes was so mad that Bartlett didn’t disclose it prior to the campaign that he didn’t realize what he had been offered.
While anger and indignation are certainly understandable in this situation, the fundamental problem with Hoynes was always exactly what we see in this scene. He viewed the nomination, and ultimately the presidency as his personally. While he was happy to fight for it, he never really believed he needed to earn it.
This was a good show.
It was the show that America needed even if it wasn't the show that they deserved.
This was a GREAT Show! Why else would you be watching clips of it some 12 years after it first aired.
@@richardc6843 I'm also watching clips from Full House and Saved By The Bell, but mostly with a narrator telling me that Zack Morris is trash.
Bartlet never showed Hoynes any respect. It was one obvious flaw in his character, an inability to hide when he did not like someone. And it was never made clear why he disliked Hoynes so much.
Sorkin can write.
Under the absent minded professor exterior, Bartlett is an incredibly savvy political operator
Hoynes figured out eventually that Bartlet's MS probably means Hoynes will be president after one term, if not sooner. But his first reaction is telling: "Which you never mentioned during the campaign?" He immediately recognized that if primary voters had known of Jed's condition, Hoynes would be the nominee instead. We the viewers are primed to take Bartlet's side and hate Hoynes, but even we have to admit that Jed willingly lied by omission to win the nomination and the election.
Martin Sheen has some difficulty pronouncing the word "sclerosis."