Reviewing Big Joel's Video About Shoe0nHead, Twitter, and Anti-Intellectualism
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- Опубліковано 15 лип 2024
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• Twitter and Anti-intel...
Originally streamed on July 31st 2021
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Intro animation credit goes to / itismekyleg & / honeybunnbadger for the visuals, and / sound_sierra for the audio! Thank you!
#Shoe0nHead #BigJoel
0:00 Teaser / Intro
0:21 Video begins
1:01 Has Big Joel been talking sh*t about Vaush on twitter?
8:39 This is basically the same take as the one that everyone cancelled me for...
12:00 My take on the ethics of Big Joel's analogy & consequentialism
21:00 Props to Big Joel for the great video
24:30 This is basically every single day for Shoe0nhead on twitter
26:40 The SMAUG "situation"
35:59 The CHAD vegan take
40:27 At what point does a being deserve moral agency?
45:22 Final thoughts
No matter what Big Joel's ultimate conclusions are, I always appreciate hearing his thoughts, because he seems like one of the most thoughtful and good faith Video Essayists in the game right now.
Big Joel should stick to subjects he’s equipped to talk about
He bullied shoe
@Tiago Thinks No.
@@johncarson5292 he and shoe have had good convos online abt this and she liked his vid what are u talking abt
@@freyathesage1749 I think you should stick to getting a life
I like how Joel never allows himself to be bullied into the same anti-intellectual mainstream discourse everyone else does. He often provides the nuance and patience for dialogue and critical thinking I crave on the internet.
But he doesn’t release enough content :(
@@musicdev The cardinal sin
Joel is like the stern but patient uncle. Cool to chill with, but will take you to task when you say dumb shit all the same
@@musicdev it’s hard to release real good and meaningful content at a constant rate. I prefer to get few but very high quality videos than a video per week about nothing substantial or important.
@@dirgmario I completely agree. I 100% prefer long form content that is high quality rather than a Vaush stream every single day. I do wish we got this high-quality content more often, but I do realize that it being more researched and well-thought out is the reason why he doesn’t release vids as often.
Big Joel: Shoe says dumb shit.
Shoe stans: yeh we know.
But they don't care, do they?
Big Joel said dumb shit?! Wtf!
@@zenithquasar9623 No, you've got it reversed.
Big joerl
imagine being a shoe stan
I love that vaush just leaves the "big joerl" search up for the entire duration of this clip.
big joerl
@@pixelcat_yt large joorl
above average ioorl
Humongous Joel is a solid bloke.
Weezer's The Blue Album
Weezer's The Blue Album is a solid album
Weezer's The Blue Album
@Far Right Weeb Insurmountable Joe-L
OMG ANOTHER WEEZER
I literally don't care what Joel talks about. I could listen to him talk about anything.
I love him
Joel > Vaush
If you can listen to him talk about click for an hour this is certainly true.
@@ErasMcras I watched that click video multiple times... I don't understand why
Except for The Good Place. His takes on The Good Place are anti-based.
This video confirms 3 things to me:
- Vaush doesn’t actively watch Kurtis Conner’s content
- Vaush watches Jenny Nicholson
- Vaush is maybe only an hour into QuintonReviews’ over 4 hour iCarly retrospective
i thought he just said some of kurtis' videos slap wymmm
@@MOcica-iy3we Vaush whines that Kurtis videos are "men-hatey" even though they are not and if we would apply such harsh standards than vaush videos are super women-hatey
@@zacnieprawisz9171 oh well i guess all you can really say is kurtis' videos are geared more towards women because his target audience is more woman. he has that one video where he says men are trash, and while i get where that comes from, any self respecting person wouldnt use such a derogatory statement towards himself. hes kinda like shoe on head's equivalent in that but less political. im also curious about where vaush is super woman hatey under the same standard
I couldn't last that long. His eyebrows just really annoy me.
@@MOcica-iy3wethe fact that he's less political is a good thing. The less political his videos, the more I enjoy them. He's just really not that good at political commentary.
I feel like this is a really common tactic with troll culture online. Making your opponents appear to support incest, pedophilia, or bestiality is super effective. I've never heard it elucidated so clearly before.
No one made him try to argue about bestiality. Best case him bringing it up is bad faith trolling that begets trolling.
No, I think the argument was made to make people think about how we treat animals by equivocating something most of us do everyday (eat meat) with something we all know is wrong. If hurting animals sexually is wrong, what is good about eating meat? How is it different? Is it different? Should we eat meat at all? I think that's the point the OP was making.
Vaush got destroyed in this debate, big joel all "i know exactly what youre going to say next!", prerecorded
Next you'll say I was only pretending!
@@ericrobertbradley6591 I was only pretending... Nani!!?
Real Joseph Joestar shit
Like that one dr who episode that i vaguely remember
Big Joel outsmarted his outsmarting
I enjoy how Vaush treats his chat like he is a fun but firm Uncle.
Vaush’s chat deserves it. They’re just a whiny horde of edgelords. Ugh.
It's really strange if you ask me
@@brotherblood1180 Gotta keep them parasocialized, am I right?
Hasan treats his chat like belligerent neighbors who show up just to ruin his day, but he refuses to move because he got there first
That Sarah Z stuff was unnecessary. I don't understand why he had to say that. It's just creating unnecessary drama.
“These two things are bad, but society accepts one of them as good.”
“So you think both are good? You’re bad!”
The worst part is I know why Vaush got ‘cancelled’ for his CP takes. People thought he was equivocating, because that’s the argument structure that comes up most frequently in common discourse. You argue X bad, I argue Y good to defend X.
I honestly believe every “leftist” that hates Vaush or Sam Seder or Hasan is just a dumb Jimmy Dore cultist at this point, and maybe a few woke schooled or some tryhard contrarian people like Shaun. But overall, Dore is probably the worst cancer to political discourse.
See but that's my issue. If the animal eating/animal sex take is something Big Joel supports, why does he say he disagrees with Vaush's anti-child labour take. It seems like he should disagree with the animal sex comparison as a premise for the exact same reasons.
CP? I don’t know what that means and I’ve clearly been out of the loop. Could someone please enlighten me?
@@killerfrenchy Not quite. He would make the same argument he made with the meat eating. That there is a difference between the person eating meat a byproduct of harm and the person physically doing the harm themselves. I think that's just where there differences are. It's nothing like the braindead people saying Vaush defends that stuff and is a legit argument
@@Pitmidget Charles Perrault. He wrote fairy tales in the Middle Ages.
This is probably the most compelling moral argument I've heard to stop eating meat. And I love eating meat. Really makes me consider my actions.
Love to see it
the problem is that for a cow or a horse human dick is really not a big deal and they probably hardly even notice something is in. Have you seen bulls or stallions...? (I'm joking, I'm joking. Bestiality is bad no matter how big/small the animal in question is, don't lynch me)
For me I found it weird that people treat non-human animals like objects and property rather than fellow animals. There's so much cognitive dissonance, because eating animals and their produce is so mainstream and 'normal'.
@@CambrianAnomalocaris I still have a problem with "consent" argument. What about a male animal in heat that is ready to fuck anything? What is if you let it? It is clearly consenting so is it still morally wrong? Idk, I think there is more to the conversation not just consent.
@@CambrianAnomalocaris oh, and the argument that female farm animals are not hurt in the process due to the difference in size is from a long time ago, I don't even know who John McAfee is.
Loved Big Joel's video and it was entirely correct. However, none of us are surprised that Shoe is anti-intellectual. That's her entire appeal and has been since before she even made her populist (not to be confused with leftist) switch. She's intellectually lazy, and Big Joel was nice about his critique about her.
@Far Right Weeb are you a troll account bro
Her entire thing is “I just say shit without thinking.” I remember watching her interview with Vaush and her justification for her horrendous years of adding to the toxic right wing content bubble was “I didn’t even think of it as political, it was just annoying and I said what was on my mind.” She is not a relevant thinker and the online space would be so much better without her.
@@Neon_Plasma ur right lol I just wanted to check thank you
@Far Right Weeb Well you certainly seem like an unbiased expert on the subject.
@@entertain7us148 Yeah, I agree. I don't particularly like Shoe, at all, and I don't think she's changed much if at all. The moment people stop taking her seriously will be a good moment for online discourse. She's like the Doreites that Vaush dislikes, but because she's his friend she gets a pass or some kind of passive comment for some of her wilder takes. Frankly, she's just a dumb person.
Big Joel’s videos are what initially moved me from Christianity and pushed me towards leftism. They make me feel safe tbh.
nice :)
Absolutely floored me when I found out his name isn't Joel.
That’s really good but Christianity isn’t opposite of leftism. Christians can be leftists.
@@Prodigi50 True, but I think he was referring to the kind of Christianity that has been weaponized by the Right. In fact a lot of leftists are influenced in their views by the Ministry of Jesus. Because there's no way that Jesus was a fiscally conservative moralist. The guy told the rich to give their entire wealth to the poor, defended sex workers, and declared that the Kingdom of God belonged to the most humble of men, and those despised by society. Jesus was a leftist by his very character.
Watch Dominion(documentary), Forks over Knives, Seaspiracy, The Game Changers, Earthlings, and Gary Yourofsky's The Most Important Speech You Will Ever Hear(on UA-cam). Go vegan 💚
Sarah Z "feeling like a twitter wokescold" seems like a dumb take Vaush, from what I recall she's been openly critical of people like that and the sort of 2016-era Tumblr lib approach to social justice in some of her retrospective videos. I sort of get the vibe that she's someone who grew up in that era of discourse and matured past it in a way that kept her from adopting what I guess could be called "wokescold" tendencies.
Yeah, I feel like Vaush was flapping his mouth at that time without really thinking about it. I can agree that she might LOOK like such a person, but it's stupid to say such a thing about a youtuber with established views you can verify. He was trying to clarify that it's like someone told about him that he looks like a debate bro, but it was weak.
Yeah, I have no idea how to explain it in a coherent way, but people who were around mid-2010s Tumblr just aren't doing that shit on Twitter in the 2020s unless they never matured. I guess aesthetically we all just still look alike though?
@@ListlessLion I'm a part of that demographic too, it's definitely true. Some people still carry the vibe around even if theyve matured yknow. I think a lot of it is just her style of writing
Tf is “wokescold”? Is that even a fucking word?
its not really "a take" he just feels uneasy for little to no reason, and he said as much, too.
Shoe seems like a bit of a “not like other girls” girl, if I’m honest.
@Veruna She's still a Pick me girl to her core.
Aw yes bc shes her own women with her own opinions....boy. Bye.
@@kittennight3305 what
@@kittennight3305 no because she spent the last 7 years pandering to misogynistic losers for Internet likes
@@ssseeeaaa you may not realize it but the "pick me girl" narrative is derived from the sexist concept that women form their opinions based around what men think, which is cringe and cucked. She wasn't just pandering to misogynists, she WAS a misogynist, and treating her any differently than you'd treat a male misogynist is also cringe and cucked. Women can just have bad opinions lol
I’d argue someone wanting the byproduct of suffering rather than the suffering itself is an important distinction, because if, to use the analogy in the video, someone wanted candy, then there could be a way to satisfy this person’s desires without causing harm to anyone. However, if someone wants me to suffer, then there’s no other way to achieve that than causing harm to someone. Lab grown meat I think is a good example applied to the question at hand
What about lab-grown animals that have no real central nervous systems and consequently consciousness? Would that not make bestiality possible without animal suffering? Bestiality and eating meat have the animal suffering as a byproduct, but right now these alternatives are not realistic though.
So eating meat and bestiality are not feasable without animal suffering at this point.
I appreciate you bringing up the idea of lab-grown meat!
@@SadistModeOn The segment does that a bit later, but Vaush mentions it very briefly. Though I wonder how far it is in development
@@RandomPerson-yq1qk How does lab grown meat require animal suffering? The only part that involves the animal is establishing a cell line and that doesn’t cause suffering to my knowledge
@@jakuth99 Ok, that was my fault. I meant to write:
"Right now eating meat and bestiality are not fesable without animal suffering."
I will edit my initial comment and leave this comment here.
I like how the internet's definition of "talking shit" is actually just "your takes are bad and I'm open to talk to you about it"
@@fruitygarlic3601That has more to do with the lack of connection and or will to talk to a stranger with grace and or respect on the internet. Especially if the person is angry at said online stranger
@@innitbruv-lascocomics9910 damn bro you talking shit? /J
Chat just likes to drama bait
Ehh regarding the statement about Sarah Z: I'm not quite sure where Vaush's impression that she's a wokescold comes from, in the contrary, to me she consistently comes scross as very thoughtful and reflective.
And I'm sorry, but "He seems like a debate bro" and "She seems like a wokescold" are not comparable statements. A "debate bro" is, well, just a bro who debates, the association isn't necessarily particularly negative, and some people (like Xanderhal) actively self-identify as debate bros. But no one self-identifies as a wokescold, because it's an insult. Vaush himself has characterized wokescolds as abusive people, who don't sincerely believe in the things they say they do, who are obsessed with purity and retribution and who spend their days harassing others on social media.
Hence, while I'm sure that Vaush didn't mean that, there is a lot of room to interpret the statement "I don't know her, but she seems like a wokescold" as "I don't know her, but she seems like an abusive person" or "I don't know her, but she seems like she has no actual beliefs and is only obsessed with seeming woke and pure rather than actually achieving something". That would obviously be pretty insulting, in a way that calling someone a "debate bro" would not. I think a more fitting analogous statement would be smth like "I don't know Vaush, but he seems like a misogynist", which would obviously be a pretty trashy thing to say about another creator without any evidence.
And I wonder where this impression comes from, because I don't see it coming from Sarah Z's actual content. Calling someone a wokescold (at least to me) at least kind of implies that you think they're misinformed, ineffectual, dogmatic and are unable to reflect on themselves, their beliefs or their behavior. So yeah, it does seem like kind of a sexist statement, because generally her content ist well-researched and thoughtful and not at all wokescold-y, and it seems like this impression stems more from the fact that she's a queer woman who talks a lot about tumblr.
Alright, I'm done, that just kinda bothered me. I'm glad that Vaush is done with the "wokescold discourse" because honestly, it does sometimes come off kind of like the new "SJW". I absolutely agree that there are toxic elements particularly in the online left, and I'm glad that there is discussion around it and that there exists a word for people who exhibit this abusive, harassing behavior. But I really dislike when, like here, it seems to have less to do with the actual behavior of someone and more with the fact that they seem like a stereotypical "SJW" from their surface-level traits.
I agree, cutting off Destiny has only been good for Ian's content.
I have to disagree on the front that "debate bro" is a neutral term. It is absolutely a term which has strong negative connotations to anyone outside of the debate space. And additionally, people do identify as wokescolds openly in some cases.
@@ClarkNewman608 yeah but someone calling themselves a woke scold can be seen as someone owning up to that identity and their morals and be used to project confidence in oneself rather than using it as a term with a meaning independent from its negative connotations.
@@thelastjerkbender2505 the same is true of "debate bro"
@@ClarkNewman608 yeah, same is true of any term with negative connotations.
When Kurtis Connor says 'man bad' he's doing it semi-ironically because his audience is like 85% women.
Kurtis’ jokes about men are so… constant. It’s one thing to hear the occasional jokes here and there but it’s pretty hard to watch one of his videos anymore without hearing those jokes absolutely everywhere (or it being lowkey the entire joke of the video). I just get this vibe that he recently found out his audience was mostly leftist women, so he’s been gearing his videos to be very “haha, shitty guys are shitty, right ladies? But I’m not! I’m soft and innocent. I’m much better than these guys, right ladies?”. It’s like seeing a guy version of those “I’m not like the other girls” girls who really want the approval of men. If he was a woman maybe it wouldn’t come across that way.
I think any UA-camr that made "jokes" about women being bad would have people calling for them to be canceled. Why should people treat people who make jokes about men any differently?
@@greywolf7577 yall love to act like women haven't been shit on since forever. Like, sure, dude, I've never seen a guy joke about women on UA-cam before. Never happened 🙄
@@8bitdiedie how many kurtis videos have you seen?
Vaush does the whole "women bad" thing so I don't know if he has room to talk.
love the random people in chat doing the exact anti-intellectual take shoe is
"you spend a long time thinking about this huh", and "white people problems huh"
Bruh
"You think about moral questions that deal with dark subject matter? You MUST be impure!" - a line of thinking that is far to common
Damn, imagine not critically thinking about anything.... can't relate.
@Very Sad How is it "dumb shit"
@Mr. Webb How so?
I can’t really force myself to watch Shoe. As someone who was once on the right, she fueled the fires and the laziness of her current takes just remind me too much of who I used to be.
This way of thinking speaks lots about social conservatism. It's useful to remember that you can be economically progressive but socially conservative.
Yeah i feel that.
Im amicable to allying when they're being reasonable on a take but on the whole i can't take that kind of content anymore.
Like it took a while to undo a lot of biases and challenge my thoughts and after all that it just feels bad looking back at what almost feels like rhetoric that had me feeling like a puppet in retrospect.
I never stopped watching shoe cuz I turned into a lefty at the same rate as her... Idk her videos now are pretty good lol
Shoe was never on the right, mocking buzzfeed Isn’t a rightist thing, and even if she was why the hell does it matter now, if she’s “changed”
Or whatever
@@jeanmichellelaurent I believe that she was an useful idiot to the right, it doesn't make her right wing, but does it matter at that point?
She thinks the same way as every right-leaning person
I found out today that Shoe is my age (30) I honestly thought she was way younger. The way she makes arguments and twists things to make the other person look dumb is how I argued when I was 18.
I mostly hear about Shoe from Vaush who tends to be generous, and Joel seemed very generous in the video too, but when I see her on twitter and engage with her audience I get really big Intellectual Dark Web vibes. Her Anti sjw edginess attitude but liberal stance has cultivated this following of people who want social services and taxes, but vote against that cause they're socially conservative, so will vote against their interests economically to improve their lives, so that they can reserve the right to be bigoted.
I don't get that vibe from her at all. I don't have Twitter so maybe her following is completely different over there. But she's made videos that are against police brutality, pro-lgbt content, she's changed her stance about gender and made videos about gender expression, and yeah none of her content is intellectually based at all but none of it is socially conservative in any way.
Her vids are probably 70/30 hits/misses, her tweets are more 50/50
To me she has always been the same reactionary. Even today.
@@justthetruth3950 I think that's pretty uncharitable. But you don't have to like her
@@haleymilbrodt8080 Its good she's made videos about those things. I probably have a selection bias that I only notice/remember the takes that are punching left, which would have more engagement of reactionaries in the comments that I have talked to.
I'm also incredibly weary of 'edgy' communities, being offensive for offense sake and stuff like that.
Its just a weird dynamic spread of views among her followers that you have legitimate lefties and then some real edge lord anti-sjws
We judge ourselves by our intentions but we judge others by their actions.
thank you marc jones
Who is "we" in this case?
@@dereinzigwahreRahl Good question but I assumed that it is intended to apply to everyone (in a general sense). I just checked and apparently the quote is apparently attributed to Stephen M.R. Covey the author of "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People" however I thought it was much older. Happy to hear any research you find.
@@zipzap8791 thanks although I am just passing the quote on. The video content made me think of it.
@@QT5656 Absolute statements about peoples behavior tend to be false.
Honestly, I don't believe this quote to be much more useful then shoes twitter discourse.
Twitter should never be used for thought provoking questions..
Is there a website that should? Or do we not use the internet for intelligent conversation?
@@Prodigi50 4chan
@@erisesoteric7571 ah yes, the green text website where no one seems to really have any coherent thought outside of speculation on video games.
@@phillemon7664 You forgot the porn.
It's truly superior in all ways to have philosophical arguments on.
@@Prodigi50 internet and intelligent conversation don't go hand in hand.
this conversation was very eye-opening, I was genuinely shocked at how I've personally never questioned the ethics of animal treatment in this manner
this is me speaking as a fan of Vaush, but how can someone look at Kurtis Conner's content and have a problem with a 'men are bad' thing. The only thing i can remember would be the 'are men trash?' video where he literally just reacted to several gross misogynistic messages of which women (and others) receive dozens all the time. I don't blame Vaush for not being able to empathise but he could try to understand.
As a watcher of both I kinda agree kinda don't. I think it's sorta irresponsible to, like most feminists do, only talk about women's issues and never talk about men's issues. Women are certainly opressed more than men, but men are also hurt by gender roles. When Kurtis makes fun of men for being horny creeps while not empathizing with men who are sexually frustrated but not creepy (like Vaush does), I think he inadvertedly creates divisions among the genders. Kurtis is far from the only person who does this though, and on a large scale he definitely does mostly good.
@@wehavebiscuits Feminists certainly talk about men’s issues all the time, if someone says they don’t, you’re just not familiar with the literature then
yeah, imo it's pretty clear through context clues when he puts down "men" he's referencing toxic, misogynistic men. But maybe I'm wrong and he's actually dogwhistling feminazis lol
@@wehavebiscuits I feel like feminism actually has more of a problem of centering men too much. Men’s feelings are so often considered more important than female safety. to the point where we have more “feminist” conversations about men being allowed to cry than we do about women being brutalized, trafficked, and controlled.
@@greentea673 it's true that most feminists do bring up men not being able to express their emotions and aren't taken as seriously when they're assaulted, but it's rare hearing people talk about young men's sexual frustrations and inability to find girlfriends and supportive friends. Basically only Hasan and Vaush do this, and I think it's an often neglected aspect of feminism.
The lack of conversation on these topics is what has led to incel ideology and pick-up artists to be so prominent. Kurtis makes fun of creepy men, as one should, but his implied solution is "keep your sexual desires to yourself", which is not a solution.
Basically, a lot of people think the solution to male gender roles is to make men be more like women (or rather, the way women are right now under influence of gender roles), which includes repressing their sexuality. Neither men nor women should need to repress their sexuality.
This video actually gave me a lot to think about. Not in regards to Shoe, just other moral and philosophical questions that I'd need to do some introspection to answer for myself.
Props to Big Joel and to Vaush as well.
If you're considering reducing your animal product consumption, I'd highly recommend checking out some factory farm footage. "Dominion" is a good documentary for this if you're interested. Big Joel barely scratched the surface of factory farming here, no shade to him because it wasn't the point of his video, but still it's really important stuff to see for yourself.
@@ross3015 yeah the problem is I like some forms of meat too much and my diet is already super limited because most food textures fuck with my brain (I'm autistic). That being said, the day that synthetic meat or plant-based meat replacements become cheaper and easier to manufacture than animal meat will be the day I drop all meat consumption and never look back. Dairy products will be treated the same way (I know there's non-dairy milk but I cannot stand the taste or feel of it).
Also, thanks for the recommendation!
What this video made me think about is why is it OK for Vaush to call Welsh people sheep shaggers? As a Welsh guy that's spent a LOT of time living in England, getting that shit thrown at me constantly, it's really disappointing to hear it from him
@@krytenfivetwothreep2485 He's American, we don't understand or experience prejudices faced between groups that we see as white here.
@@krytenfivetwothreep2485 yeah pointing a specific nationatity was fucked up, just say lone farmer, a curiosity about that, Bolsonaro, the president, fucked chicken, which kills them, and he himself said some people are smarter and fuck sheep, so he not only admits he is a zoophile but also not a smart one
Inuit natives can’t access veggies in the environment, but you can
I can't eat veggies because I have ARFID
@@mjrhmekssh Okay, but ARFID has treatment options. It doesn't have to be something that will prevent you from ever eating a whole food group
it's literally just the "there are starving children in china" argument lmao. Never was a compelling argument to me even as a child. There's an argument to be made imo in regards to accessibility of fresh produce in food deserts/medical necessity vs access to medicine to treat that etc etc, but weaponizing an indigenous population in the arctic sure ain't it
@@danpolta8759 meat is cheaper and more accessible than healthcare. Definitely an issue that should be addressed that isn't necessarily a situation where the individual is at fault
The tweet that caused all of this specifically said, "Absent extenuating considerations (survival, cost, health conditions)..."
Okay so when lions eat their kids that’s nature but when I do it that’s prison time? What?!?
Were they tasty?
I’d be Lion if I said they weren’t.
When horses fuck horses is ok, but when I do it I'm the crazy one? Liberals smh
@@VinnieGer TBH I laughed at that a lot harder than I care to admit XD
Vaush's version of the tweet:
Vaush: "I think both cp and enslaveing children are wrong and should never happen I do not like them and they are equally as bad"
Literally everyone else "bro why would you say you like cp? Lol"
Except unlike with shoe that's actually what happens
On the Subject of consent, i have read a fantasy book where a human had to prove he was not a child for his species so the elven council did not arrest and kill his elven lover for pedophelia. On a different note, i support the Harkness Test.
pls tell me which book
Bro what-
Fantasy book. Sure ( ͡o ͜ʖ ͡o)
What a cool plot line, honestly
whats the book
I think this is a very right winger way of looking at problems, not actually thinking about the nuances and just saying "this bad" instantly without hesitation.
It is highly reactionary, yes.
Saying it's right-winger kinda assumes some people on the left aren't brain-empty reactionaries. 99% of the vaush's twitch chat takes are very reactionary, is the vaush's chat prone of being a right-winger? probably not, but they are not as smart as him or most people that have experience with rational discourse, in fact, i think most people have a very instinctual and reactionary way to look at problems, this isn't just characteristic of the right, but of our general society in general.
As for shoe, i do believe she genuinely wants to be a lefty, even with her anti-sjw history, it's just that she has IQ of a twitch chat most of the time.
@@juasjuasi4750 I do agree with your point, some people on the left tend to have some head empty takes (see: tankies). However I'm sure we can agree that most reactionaries are right adjacent, that is what I meant in my original comment.
I do also agree that Shoe seems genuine in her interest for left wing politics, but it is true that she never was that interested in intellectual discourse and always had more reactionary takes than anything else. I still love her content though, because at least it's done in good faith unlike right wing demagogue grifters such as Coldfeet Chowder.
@@TabbyWasTaken Totally agree with your response :D! I personally think that the right-wing sector that is involved in propaganda (YT and Fox News) manipulates the inherent reactionary to "stuff i don't understand and i am afraid" nature of most humans to push impressionable people into an extreme reactionary mindset and get indoctrinated.
@@juasjuasi4750 I think there's a difference between chat, tweet and a video. Response on chat is always less thoughtful and can come much more reactionary. However, if you think about something longer, and your take is still bad and/or reactionary, then we've got a problem.
Think Shoe needs the to learn the lesson that if you cant add to the discussion dont engage with it.
When lab grown meat becomes available, it is reasonably priced, and it doesn’t make me sick, then I will more than happily switch. I don’t enjoy animals being harmed either.
" I don’t enjoy animals being harmed (but I dislike not eating meat more)" classic enlightened centrist take
Vegan meat alternatives that are nutritionally complete and inexpensive already exist and are reasonably priced. You're going to be saying this forever because it's a moving goalpost.
Tofu is already cheaper than beef. Seitan is easy to make at home. Pre-made chick'n burgers are less than a dollar each.
Lab grown meat is unlikely to ever be reasonably priced until it becomes a necessity (which will be too late). Vegetarians and vegans are probably not going to eat it because they already have objectively better products that taste like meat, have all the nutrients they need and contain no carcinogens or cholesterol. Most omnivores would avoid it even if it were priced competitively just because of the 'yuck, unnatural factor' There would also be a relentless propaganda push by the massive animal agriculture corporations to call into question its safety and environmental credentials, lobby politicians to demand that it cannot be marketed as meat, cannot contain the name of the animal that the culture came from, etc. The only way we are getting lab meat is if/when our food system collapses due to environmental pressure.
@@danpolta8759 its just making that info available. Also lots of people rely on cheap fast food because they can't cook with two jobs etc.
If we got a massive info campaign and fast food that can out do the addictive things that most people get stuck eating when poor then yeah but not just money but lack of time stops it from catching on.
Even then your competing with huge inbuilt systems of the meat industry.
Not disagreeing of course its bad but systems lead people into these positions they make it easier to be reliant on their industry and try to squash any competition.
Im just saying people are made of habits its the system we need to tackle not individuals that just causes people to double down in the other direction.
Is it stupid they do that yes but calling them stupid isn't going to make them rail against the convenience of meat for alternatives especially if they have to live with the stresses of low wage work and poverty often they have to take the convenient option because their mind is filled with more in their face money issues.
Tl:dr capitalism bad, be kind with people harsh with systems, don't assume peoples life conditions and make judgements based off that.
@@alanraptor2569 Actually, the massive animal agriculture corporations are entering the vegan sector. The smart money recognizes that veganism/vegetarianism will be more prevalent in the future.
This isn't a defense of capitalism, just the recognition that it is compatible with veganism as most understand it.
Also, in the case of a food system collapses due to environmental pressure lab grown meat is still unlikely to be adopted considering it will inevitably have a higher watt/calorie ratio than whatever plant based alternatives are viable.
How could anyone watch Big Joel or hear him work out his thoughts on Twitter and dislike him. He just seems like a cool thoughtful guy. Also his videos are fire.
He’s a really smart dude
Lol I find him mildly annoying, but I like his thoughts and arguments. I will still watch many of his vids and enjoy them, but I can't watch them too much.
I don't know what it is exactly - maybe a perceived smugness?
He looks gross, like his hair looks greasy.
@@kevinbeck8836 Who cares?
@@kevinbeck8836 he has the hair of an Adonis how dare you, he's a troubadour and a chasanova.
Cannibalism has practically the highest risk for disease transmission of any behavior. Because you're eating the same species, any disease the meal had can readily be transmitted to you. It also opens the door to a whole host of diseases that can't be transmitted through other means.
Tbf, eating human isn't worth it, just eat pork. It's similar in taste, but pork tastes better
@@Josep_Hernandez_Lujan First hand experience eh?
But muh cannibalist cubes
Exploiting animals for consumption and use creates zoonotic diseases and can lead to pandemics
Legalizing cannibalism increases the risk that you'll be murdered during human meat shortages.
I absolutely love that vowsh searched for "big joerl". I cant take my eyes of it
Omg thanks for pointing this out
I feel like the online leftists relationship with shoe is just being her mom and having to wrangle her back in when she gives a bad take
If you’re a serious person, just ignore Twitter and do your part in making Twitter discourse less relevant.
this. the little bit I've seen of this Joel fella makes me think he's a thoughtful and decent guy;.but making a video breaking down how somebody's logic in getting to "beastiality is worse than farming or eating meat" is wrong seems at best pointless.
He brought up actual awful and harmful takes from this gal and said "i dont really care" and then went on to discuss her logic in believing sex with animals is worse than being a meat eater for quite some time.
This is actually a pretty great example of where being constantly online goes wrong as well as how obnoxious debate culture is.
@@drewfleming5584 If you don't educate people on how twitter discourse devolves quickly into this useless shit, how do you make twitter less relevant? You just say "twitter bad" and hope people stop using it?
How can you say "debate culture is obnoxious" - which implies all debate culture is bad and clearly start debating that topic in a youtube comment section of all places? You are doing a terminal online thing right now. If it's that bad and can't be done responsibly maybe stop doing it yourself.
Just deactivate twitter unplug your computer and go outside
@@dereinzigwahreRahl lol my only point here was that a dumb person on twitter saying Beastiality is bad isn't worthy of attention. And when i say debate culture sucks; no, that isn't me saying all discussion in life is bad 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@drewfleming5584 You said "debate culture" - I referred to only that. I never said all debate let alone all discussion.
You seem to have a problem with generalizing things to a point where they are so imprecise that you can't be understood correctly, or you just want to provoke people, idk.
The J in Big Joel stands for genius.
profile pic related
*Jenius
i think the "justification" for the whole edward from twilight thing is that he's frozen in his mental development, not just his physical development. so basically the classic stephenie meyer mental gymnastics
"It's okay to eat fish, cause they don't have any feelings" - Kurt Cobain
bro when i took an ichthyology class and found out that wasn't true...
There’s a fish that literally draws elaborate art for his girlfriend and mates for life
Why are people so fycking dumb to believe an animal that requires fear to be able to survive can't feel emotions
Shoeonhead is still a coward who blocks people who point out her childish and bad behavior tho.
Lmao yeah, I made the mildest criticism and got blocked for it
@@just_a_turtle_chad YOU ARE RETURNED AAAAA I HAVENT SEEN YOUR CHANNEL IN FOREVER
@@just_a_turtle_chad Thank you turtle. Lol
I'd call that language a little strong
sadly i also got blocked when i agreed with a criticism looool
@@just_a_turtle_chad Yay. Turtle Turtle Turtle 🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢
i think my main issue with shoe is that, to my knowledge, she’s never really addressed how shit her takes are and how she had contributed to the alt right pipeline. when compared to someone like hunter, you can really see how much shoe is grifting.
She has acknowledged it, but doesn't really do anything to make up for it other than being vaguely left leaning except for when she's saying weird shit like this on Twitter
If only you would open your eyes to how much Vaush grifts
@@fontunetheteller410 Well, tell us how.
@@yourbrother7835 socialism is the grift.
Vaush uses Consequentialism as a convenient way to justify the atrocities he wants to bring about in the name of socialism.
@@fontunetheteller410 my nuts are the grift
shoe is still very much reactionary, although her politics may have shifted somewhat.
her more "leftist" makeover seems really superficial to me. i don't believe her fundamental thought patterns have changed all too much, and this situation is a perfect example of that.
She was never right-wing.
@@anticorncob6 never said she was
@@anticorncob6she always was
Damn you were right on the money with this one
Really appreciate Vaush’s pro vegan takes in this video, he’s been less favorable to those arguments in the past
Vegan is Nonsense
Vaush is such a debate bro, he'll debate himself if he finds a valid argument against him.
No he isn't.
I think that's just called changing your mind
I think Joel was partly motivated to make this video after shoe sicced her followers on him and they called him a pedophile after the pride discourse a couple months ago.
Good for Joel to defend himself against anti intellectuals.
@@junjiito6298 He is one himself. Hence the whole bestiality nonsense. It's insane troll logic that get mad when people won't respond to it seriously.
@@lProN00bl Damn, being a proper bootlicker in this comment section.
Anyways, feel free to coddle yourself with how its "troll logic".
Im very happy I finally found a nuanced video on "HorseShoe theory"
People who say Sh0eonhead is on the right are giving her too much credit. She is just not very bright. lol
TRU.
I think there’s a reason why see sticks to “haha funny funny” socialist memes instead of actual moral discussions, because (as shown in this video) she clearly doesn’t have anything of value to bring to any moral discussion.
Bars
Shoe's never seemed like the sharpest tool in the shed... she still doesn't.
Her infatuation with Huey Long only confirms our suspicions.
No, she isn't, and according to another commenter here, *that's her appeal* which I find most disturbing
@@user-gh1vc9kb4e What's wrong with Huey Long? (I don't know much about him)
@@spicybill Even though he did good and based things like advocating for a wealth cap and giving schoolbooks to children in his state, he basically acted like a dictator in his time as governor of his state
Can we... like not put people down for lacking philosophical education or verbal intelligence?
Its all fun and games until big Joel thanos snaps you out of existence with superior logic.
I’m still not sure how Vaush tolerates Shoe
Reverse pipeline to the left?
Because she’s still a person who deserve respect and can grow and learn?
He thinks he has a shot.
Yeah, she is just unbearable.
@@chrisbartolini1508 Bingo
i follow joel's argument up until the point where he implies the only way one could be into bestiality is if they want to harm the animal. what if the person just likes the feeling of committing a bestial act and the resulting harm of the animal is just a byproduct of that act? one could argue that the harm is inextricably tied to the act because that is the only possible outcome but the same could be said for eating meat, the death of the animal is the only possible outcome. doesn't that bring us back to square one?
In his defense, he does immediately follow that up by stating that his argument is contentious.
I also strongly disagree with that assumption of his, I would assume people just wanna get off and that they're into bestiality in the same way someone else might be into feet. The harm isn't necessarily part of their goal, and in fact, they might have convinced themselves that the animal is into it.
So yes, I think even Joel's attempt at an argument to morally differentiate between meat consumption and bestiality, kinda falls flat.
@@truthbetold8233 yea i completely agree, i think that in this **very specific case** there is a meaningful difference bestiality and animal torture because in the latter case, the act is definitionally a sadistic one while in the former case, as you pointed out, some might even have to convince themselves the animal enjoys the act meaning the sadism is not a necessary component
This alao assumes that all beastiality is unpleasant for the animal, which isn't necessarily the case
i love big joel, absolutely poggies
I want to here him day poggies
Big Joel seems like the kind of person to want hugs
This is a 46 minute analysis of a 20 minute analysis of a single Shoe0nhead tweet.
We are truly living in the golden age of UA-cam content!
The rabbithole has to go deeper. I want an hour and a half response from one of those furry avatar dudes on UA-cam.
@@Moh4a4d How about the stinky feet one. That should be good
Truly this is the zenith of discourse.
It was three tweets.
As I watch while I eat bagels... this is not even that high a quality analysis. I'm mostly here to see how someone a bit more "normie" engage with ethics 101.
Vaush: "Imagine teaching a child of your own to steal candy"
Me: Pauses video, looks at kids for a moment and then continues...
Smaug spread his wide wings, surrounding the short hobbit and covering him with the dragon's warmth. Inside the leathery tent, Bilbo felt safe. The hobbit blushed as the scaly beast stared deep into his eyes. A deep voice rumbled through Bilbo's body, hot breath washing over him and making him shiver.
"Dear Hobbit, I have so much treasure, but none of it has satisfied me. I have always been waiting for that one perfect treasure, the one to rule them all." the dragon sighed.
"What is it?" The hobbit whispered, shaking. "Do you want the ring?"
"I have many rings, Bilbo" Smaug replied. "But there is one that I am missing. One that I truly desire, that hard shiny metal cannot compare. I want YOUR ring, Bilbo. It was never about the rings forged in fires of mordor." Smaug sighed. "It was about the ring forged inside you, in the fires of your heart. But this ring I can only get if you let me."
Bilbo looked at the dragon, the sad reptilian eyes longing for a treasure that only the small hobbit could give. He put his hand on the dragon's snout, feeling the large reptile tremble. "Very well," the hobbit replied. "Take my ring, Smaug the Impenetrable. Perhaps tonight that name too may change."
"Perhaps," Smaug replied with a smile, his heart beating strong enough to shake the tiles below them as he gathered Bilbo closer. "Perhaps."
Why are you doing this
This was too good for it to be a shitpost
@@jenniferbarrett555 An excerpt one might say.
Wtf, this is actually really well written
@@jenniferbarrett555 I'll take that as a compliment lol
What I learned today; Dolphins are unnatural abominations.
I wait until everyone recognizes the terror of the ducks of the sea or ducks are the rape beasts of the air either way
Does anyone else think that Vaush’s example of two candy thieves doesn’t actually work? Like a more accurate one would be someone who buys candy they know is stolen and someone who steals candy for sadistic pleasure
Or to put it another way, I think pedophiles are morally worse than people who buy clothes made by child labour
_Or to put it another way, I think pedophiles are morally worse than people who buy clothes made by child labour_
The best part is hunkering down in that moral difference.
The comparison was in response to joel comparing the cow getting milked and beastiality as both sexual assault. I think its yours that doesnt work
@@tofuteh2348 Vaush’s analogy doesn’t work tho, the meat eater hasn’t personally sexually assaulted a cow in fact he may not even be aware cows are sexually abused in the process, he didn’t steal the candy maybe he didn’t even know the candy was stolen, he just took part in a system that requires that
@@annabelle2889 but that’s like saying the blind person who comes in and takes sloppy seconds without any knowledge other than there’s something to sleep with, isn’t as bad a person. Is someone relieved of all guilt or less guilty if they aren’t aware of all the details? Some pedos don’t know the age of the victim, or were lied to by the victim. They are still at fault. That would technically mean the person who eats the cow is still at fault.
@@MisterRorschach90 They would be at fault, but the point is they would be less at fault than someone who did know all of the details.
Cultured meat exists, hopefully it becomes increasingly popular and marketable until the slaughter industry is dust.
23:13 cannibalism is not natural, no. Even for pre-civ humans. Most non-human animals don't partake in cannibalism either, except in extreme circumstances, and there's good biological reason for it.
When you eat your own species, the chance of contracting disease carried by that animal is much greater, since pathogens are often very specialized to one or a few species. As a result, humans and other animals have a natural instinct to feel disgust in response to the practice. This has been codified in morals, but it started as a biological impulse.
i have no source, i just read about it in a book that i dont know the name of, but many groups of people usually (if they've done cannibalism) have done cannibalism for ceremonial purposes. Also involves eating specific body parts rather than like whole corpses or something.
That is not true, their are various forms of cannibalism, even in nature and various species practice cannibalism. Human cannibalism can be classified into ecto-cannibalism the eating of one’s species outside of the group or indo-cannibalism which is the dead within ones group.
Yes, it does increase their risk for disease but can be utilized be species to preserve energy, display dominance, help reproduce offspring and so on. But evolution is not about optimal solutions or ones that are “moral” it is about species utilizing available resources to reproduce and survive in a system. So yes many species in fact do practice cannibalism.
This is the same argument used by certain people to demonize homosexual behavior (well they’re not gay lions, when yes their are.) We had established morals then went to nature and when instances of such behavior occurred it was either not reported or explained away as “dominance behavior” a male assaulting another. Ignoring female female encounters, and ignoring that some species the dominant one was more often than not the one penetrated. You cannot have a preconceived notion of what is right and come to conclusions about what animals do. You observe them then see what they do.
Two books I would recommend on the subject are Cannibalism: A perfectly natural history by Bill Schutt
and on the homosexual behavior is Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity by Bruce Bagemihl (this one is a bit old but was used to de-criminalize homosexuality in the US)
Also the demonization of cannibalism is more a cultural thing that came from the early bronze age that dead bodies were unclean. Which in the case of diseases may have been true. Japan had this attitude and so did some Mediterranean civilizations. But some indigenous cultures thought differently. And when Europeans began their colonization of the world they saw those that practiced cannibalism were wrong and immoral. (The native carrib people were said to practice it so spain used it as justification to colonize the area and Some native cultures conversely thought European Christians were immoral because they ate their god, ie communion which is a form of ritual symbolic cannibalism)
When the dutch went to New Guinea they found cannibals, and used that as justification to “civilize” the people their. It didn’t work as New Guinea is large and while the dutch authorities said no cannibalism took place their was, usually in funerary customs, they just did not want to lose the colony. They were not even largely successful until kuru began moving trough the area, but we still don’t know if they do or do not still practice some form of cannibalism.
So I hesitate to chock my personal disgust at cannibalism to a natural human disgust, perhaps it is simply my culture putting in a in built bias.
About the cannibalism in animals that would be... wrong
Most reptiles, fish and amphibians practice cannibalism, thus why a lot of snakes of the same species eat the eggs of another individual
Its less common in mammals and birds though, but not completely unheard of
She's a loudmouth lightweight with one of the biggest block-lists on Twitter imaginable.
I'm blocked by her, anyone else?
Nothing wrong with blocking people online. It's everyone's right to curate their own internet experience.
@@tomlangford1999 good work comrade
@@phatman9762 AirInHead is that you?
@@phatman9762 Agreed, and, if this comments section is any indication, she gets a lot of general harassment. She shouldn't have to make a review board to determine if mean commenter number 1000 is sincere or abusive (There're a lot of people on the internet with a grumpy attitude and enough skill with manipulation to seriously make someone's day worse). I haven't really watched her videos, but I've seen her in chat and on twitter and she seems like a fairly decent person, regardless of controversies.
Humans technically couldn't consent to dragon sex due to the massive power imbalance. The dragon could eat you if you decline. "It's the implication," as Dennis would say in It's Always Sunny.
You have to be on equal playing fields, but if we ever meet aliens smarter than us & they're like Asari or some shit, we could consent but one of us is going to be at a disadvantage
bards: B-but I want. 👉👈
Ha ha ha true!!!
I mean if we're talking about imbalance in physical power, then most heterosexual relationships are kinda fucked.
@@msmsmsms8515 i think a dragon might be a little bit more intimidating and dangerous to say no to than a human male. I don't know how big dragons are and if they are bulletproof but I would assume pretty big and pretty bulletproof
Teach a child how to steal candy today, and maybe tomorrow, it'll seize the means of candy production from those who own them.
I love how for the entirety of the video Big Joel is misspelled in the search box lol
I see the issue with comparing eating meat with the other thing comes down to the clarity of what each entails plus the cultural aspect.
The cultural aspect is simple, people have been eating meat since the dawn of time, so that's is normalized as an ok thing to do. The other clearly isn't.
But here is where the other aspect comes in: everybody knows what sexual assault is because it happens to humans, we talk about it on Tv, internet and usually there is a clear villain (person A harmed person B).
With meat eating is different, most people don't know or don't care where meat comes from, how it is produced and what happens in those factories. Plus there is no "big villain" in the story: 'somewhere a cow died, it got packed and shipped to Walmart and I bought. See? I didn't do any harm". The ignorance to what goes on in the meat industry plays a big role.
We should really stop both
@Mr. Webb Should we stop wild animals from raping because we don't allow humans to rape animals?
@@Humuncules Bestiality is still legal in plenty of places.
You're not a wild animal, there are different rules for wild animals and humans. Stop pretending you don't understand and grow up.
@Mr. Webb if they could, they would. Animals don't just eat other animals because they feel like it, they do it because they're obligate carnivores or omnivores, which means they require meat to survive, unlike herbivores (us)
@@PowercellZeke omnivores don't require meat to survive, only obligate carnivores do. Now obviously a bear is not gonna get fat enough to survive winter just by eating berries and avoiding the salmon, they eat everything they can find
@@hydrovortexx we are omnivores. We can synthesize all the amino acids (building blocks of proteins) we need from eating plants, but we can also get plenty of nutrition from eating animals. We also have carbohydrate-digesting enzymes in our spit unlike carnivores. Obligate carnivores (cats, for example) can't endogenously produce all the amino acids they need from the stuff they eat so the stuff they eat literally needs to contain all the essential aminos, so they need to eat meat. Plus their digestive system is too short and doesn't have the right enzymes and stuff to get decent amounts of nutrition from plants, they just pass through without getting digested much.
loki was kinda relevant to bring up because the exact situation was addressed: does doing something horrible affect the world if everything is about to end. was a key plot point.
Animals have feelings, they feel emotions in the exact same way we do. many are far more intelligent than we give them credit for. it honestly upsets me deeply when people speak so dismissively about their lives.
I don't like how so many people dismiss the similarities they have in behavior to us. I remember and experiment where they took 2 monkeys, made them do the same task and reward them with grapes. At some point they started rewarding 1 with cucombers instead and that one got incraesingly angry as it kept going. It proved that they have a sense of what is fair or just. I believe chimps have been recorded to wage war on eachother and I remember taking a philosophy class where they showed us a monkey selflessly reviving another that seems like it's heart stopped from shocks from the traintrack it was on.
Animals don't feel emotions in the same way that we do. Are they worthy of respect? yes. Do they gain this worthiness through intelligence and emotion? no.
Plants feel pain, and communicate with each other. Does this make them human? no, their feelings and communications are not generally on a human level. Some forests could potentially be said to have a greater mind. But the same can be argued to be true of our architecture. Does this mean they are not worthy of respect? no. You can respect something without considering it the same as ourselves.
Examples of higher-order thinking in animals is greatly exaggerated and generally framed through the human idea of intelligence, and no animal comes close to reaching that level. Many things are sentient, but no other animal comes particularly close to sapience, or human emotions. Does this mean they're not worthy of respect? no. Everything is worthy of respect.
Not to the same extent, also it depends on the animal in question
@@jessehunter362 Plants don't feel pain, they don't have a central nervous system. They react to stimuli, but so does your phone.
@@Mopstorte Debatable. They definitely don’t feel pain in a human way, but they react to certain stimuli in a manner analogous to our own sense of pain. Most animals don’t feel pain in a directly applicable way to humans either. Can a thing be said to feel pain if its nervous system is too small to process pain on a human scale? It’s a matter of definitions, and doesn’t make them not worthy of respect. This is what i was trying to say
There should be more vegan discourse, too many leftists are anti-vegan or at least don't take it seriously.
Why do you think it is this way?
Unfortunately this is likely because of how toxic much of the vegan community is
@@isad.247Its very hard for some people to confront that something they do three times a day everyday is immoral. People want to believe they act righteously. Leftists especially pride themselves in being free from sabotage by the mainstream, so they get defensive.
@@isad.247The emotional pain of giving something up you are attached to and do every day > defensiveness/unwillingness to engage. We aren’t logic heads most of the time.
5:28 Yes, exactly. This's what I've been saying and have been frustrated about. Ranting about random, relatively inconsequential wokescolds on twitter is such a waste of time and making a mountain out of a molehill. Now if only Destiny would come to this realization.
True - also i hate how woke scolds on twitter are used by the right as their counter to qanon or crazy GOP legislators
I have seen people on right say that the entire left are insane and divorced from reality and cant be reasoned with and when you ask for an example they cheery pick some random person lefty online or in a really closed community and apparently that is as bad or worse than people with actual power making actual laws and propagating conspiracy theories - such a false equivalency
@@wephilips6651 if only people understood that neoliberals ARENT leftists
Incredibly tangential, but Destiny’s videos are so comfy and I wish he didn’t have the hateboner he has now for the left. I was never even a huge fan of him, but it seems like a loss.
Already subbed to Big Joel club checking in.
I mean, I can't blame Shoe for getting angry about being compared to an animal-fucker for eating meat. I'm pretty sure I would've gotten defensive about it too. Even if it's philosophically the most sound argument you could make, it's insanely alienating. Nobody wants to be compared to something they find morally disgusting. For example I get downright triggered any time someone tries to argue being gay and being a pedo are equivalent, no matter which side of that they're on. I think basically any regular person who wasn't deeply into debate, philosophy or veganist ethics would've reacted with something like that. If you're trying to win someone over, maybe don't start with "You're as bad as a horse fucker."
I have an idea. I'm going to write an email to vaush titled 'you saved me from the alt right pipeline' (so he reads it) and then in the body explain how he's misusing the world amicable.
I was with vaush until he called smough smog and then said he's a god in dark souls lore! No he's just an evil bastard that couldn't even be one of gywns knights. Time to cancel vaush
@@rainbowkrampus he just might have to stay and live with Tim pool and weed Lord after this
If anyone needs to say “animal sex” they should get big Joel to do it.
Whomever is Vaush's editor I have to say well done. The new format of videos is way better than before and much more enjoyable to watch.
It's uncomfortable to me to see that most of the upvoted comments on Big Joel's video and this video are just comments about how Shoe is bad, anti-intellectual, fake, dumb, etc. Like, that wasn't the point of the video. People criticizing Shoe, instead of taking time to think about Shoe's very human response, reflect on how it got to that point, and empathize with her, just craft Shoe into this political other that is a freak who is doing things that they, the morally and intellectually superior human, would NEVER stoop to. Ironically, they're doing the exact same thing as Shoe did, falling back on base human responses instead of confronting something in themselves.
Joel’s just being nice tbh. Maybe if Shoe did this every once in a while I’d understand, but anti-intellectualism is her brand. She has done this incident in so many different times and she is a 30 year old woman at this point. The fact she still continues to make the same mistakes suggests, that she isn’t the brightest person, to say the very least, and at worst, purposely does this for her wallet.
@@greentea673 but why do you care? It's "small beans". Even if everything you say is true, which I don't believe, is that really what the main takeaway for most people is? That Shoe is bad? What good does that conclusion do?
@@JordanKerk99 yes, she's a huge public figure not just some random person.
The problem I have with this whole thing is factory farming is different than just killing an animal for food. I’m not a vegetarian but I truly believe that Veganism is the next evolutionary step for humanity but there’s a massive difference in hunting an animal who’s lived a perfect animal life in the forest until one day it’s killed by a hunter who (ideally) puts it down in a rather comparatively painless way to that of being mauled by a bear who like to start eating their pray before they die. Like Joel brought up a good point when he highlighted that animals face sexual abuse in slaughterhouses but that point is only really true for factory farming.
For me, it's even more interesting if we can take it one step further. Imagine having kind of animal paradise, where they live with lots of space, run freely, don't worry about predators etc. They have grand ol' time, right? And then, you just put some... Idk sleep gas in the place where animal sleep, and kill them when they are unconscious. No pain caused. It this, considering that harm done to animal is less then when as mentioned, mauled by bear, borderline moral? I've no idea, I know vegans say it's not, but I might think that it's at the very least unclear
@@Suavek69 It's certainly less immoral than the current situation.... Personally I'm on the side of lab-grown meat but if that ends up a failure, that's the only other scenario I'd be okay with society to continue eating meat
Okay, but the bear is still going to eat another animal whether you shoot this one or not. In all likelihood, the animal is going to live a decently long life.
We wouldn't accept that since some children die in school shootings then it's justifiable to kill kids. The action of killing an animal who doesn't need to die is a deliberate choice to shorten the life of a healthy animal and prevent them from enjoying more of life.
@@goldegreen lab grown meat 100% I'm not arguing against it
@@danpolta8759 ok, I was about to counter with "but won't every animal die essentially gruesome death in the wilds", but then I realized that that would be an argument against allowing animals to live in the wilds at all, not in favor of killing some of them in more humane way, since at the moment of killing it wouldn't have to die otherwise. Yeah... Makes sense
Even a (Kantian) deontologist could argue that animal cruelty is immoral because it lessens compassion in others. In a Kingdom of Ends, we'd ideally all be vegan so as not to lessen compassion in any other man.
do you know what time the dabate is at in gmt
Is there any evidence that that's true though? This is just personal experience, but I haven't observed that people become nicer (to other humans) after going vegan. Even in cases where human and animal cruelty are clearly linked, like psychopathic behavior, does acting out animal abuse actually _cause_ a person to be less compassionate to people or is it just a correlation?
I think this is good philosophy. When people justify to themselves living in a contradiction, they risk getting in the habit of justifying all kinds of things.
Ekhem Unnatural Vegan ekhem That Vegan Teacher ekhem
Becoming a vegan can also give you feeling of moral superiority
Until I see a good causation (not corelation) between being / becoming a vegan and being / becoming more empathetic I'll stay sceptical
What comes first: empathy or veganism? Are people more likely to become vegan bc of their empathy or did their veganism enable them to become more empathic? Idk but it's not my argument to defend
@@angelikaskoroszyn8495 I'm not educated enough on this matter to properly formulate it. Indeed, I formulated it poorly in the parent comment.
The main deontologist take on this, iirc, is an imperfect duty to oneself. Animal cruelty deadens the feeling of compassion; after all, you have knowledge that you're promoting animal suffering.
With respect to That Vegan Teacher et al., people can act moral in one way and immoral in another way. The Kantian formulation against animal cruelty, to my knowledge, says that causing animal suffering _deadens_ compassion, not that _not_ causing suffering _strengthens_ it.
The crux of where it could be argued for meat eating and against direct animal cruelty is that it's an "imperfect duty;" namely, you're not necessarily obligated to sacrifice your own happiness for the wellbeing of animals.
The Vaush character development is nice. He used to be way more edgy but has come to agree with "wokescolds" in some ways because maybe they were partially right all along.
Big Joel is based rarely does someone give an argument that Vaush has to concede to
Edit: Also Shoe0nHead used to claim women are biologically less funny than men but is funny as fuck, how curious?
Ok this is something I actually feel really strongly about when it comes to fantasy races, and it's how age is perceived for races that live for hundreds or maybe thousands of years. (I'm mostly using D&D as a reference point here)
For a lot of long-living fantasy races (Elves, Gnomes, Dwarves, etc.), I frequently see people say things like "Oh yeah they're a 90 year old Elf, so they're basically in their human 20s" and like, that's not how age or time work??? Like *maybe* physically that comparison works, but as far as basically anything else they're not similar. They have so much more world and life experience to drawn on, they've witnessed so much more history, (probably) interacted with so many more people...
Not super related to the video but got reminded of it with the Smaug discussion lol
people forget that shoe is a comedian first and an intellectual 4th, right after Tradwife and bisexual lighting queen.
iT's jUsT a joKe
@Vic Stephen Crowder? Dave Rubin? Pretty much every right-wing "comedian?"
I'm not vegan but I absolutely encourage anyone to go vegan if you can. Be based where I couldn't be.
@@Neon_Plasma how's it going?
@@Neon_Plasma Veganism with the exception of ethically sourced eggs sounds like a diet I could pull off. Once I move out anyway, my parents would have a cow if I stopped eating meat (pun intended)
I'm veg, but I love cheese too much
@@goldegreen It is impossible to ethically source eggs. Even if the chickens are treated "well" getting all those hen's without having just as many roosters involves a lot of "culling". Getting unfertilized eggs from the chickens also involves depriving them of the roosters they desire.
That being said, I think eggs are one of the least bad nonvegan foods. Also its basically impossible to feed yourself without causing harm to people and animals in the current system no matter what you eat. Anyways good luck with your new diet :)
Free range is essentially a meaningless term like "low fat" ehich is mainly meant to reassure the consumer rather than be concerned with the animals being harmed. Look up footage from free range farms if you don't believe. Also B12 supplements are so cheap, and nutritional yeast tastes delicious, so I don't really see why you have to buy eggs.
Kurtis literally just made a few videos about shitty dudes that are weird to women, that doesn't mean he thinks men=bad
If you get robbed, raped, and murdered just before a nuke goes off near you, you'd still feel the same amount of pain and violation as you would if that nuke never went off. What you experienced is bad either way; it doesn't matter if that pain didn't last long, it's still just as unjust, and it matters just as much.
big joel my beloved
@Far Right Weeb ok
Lesson learned: liberals are cringe but liberalism is based
Re: the question of whether animals are moral agents: If we're talking about cats and horses instead of edge cases like orcas and octopuses, the answer is they're not moral AGENTS, but they are moral SUBJECTS. Being a moral agent requires a level of reasoning and responsibility that animals don't have. Being a moral subject only requires the ability to feel things like pain and desire. Harm to moral subjects counts morally, but you can't hold a cat morally responsible.
If your philosophy prof said animals are not moral agents and therefore it's not wrong to harm them, they're either dishonest or stupid. My area of specialization isn't even moral philosophy and I still consider this basic.
I recently just searched for “click review” on youtube and found big joel. Had no idea he was a leftist, thought he was pretty based, and now i love the guy.
Vaush: Seriously, have I ever said anything negative about Big Joel?“
Me: Well there is that one time you made a video calling him Big Joerl.” 1:27
Haha, I keep forgetting Vaush's avatar in the intro has the Chinese character for meat, 肉 (ròu/niku), in it. Gonna make mine with 素肉 on it.
vegetarian meat lol
This is the high-quality content I subscribe to this channel for, unlike whatever "trash" shows up on "The Vaush Pit." I like Smaug and elf fucking, personally.
Thanks for making the consequentialist argument for intentions! I've been trying to explain that for years so it's great to see a public figure with a large platform explain it well, that moral judgements based on intent and consequences aren't mutually exclusive at all, because someone with bad intentions is likely to do more things that result in suffering just for it's own sake over the long run, and the same goes for people who are doing harmful things out of good intentions. If their heart is in the right place but they're just misinformed, then there is hope they can be redeemed to do better later on, so there is in fact a solid consequentialist reason for caring about the intentions behind our actions.
Now we just need a video of shoe reacting to this video
Big Joel? More like
Gigachad Joseph
"I can't read Shoes mind" he says while showing an accurate visual depiction of her mind
"I think I'm done with the wokescold thing" YES I'm more than ready for this