I truly love how quickly Admiral Haftal "scrubbed in" to help Data try to save Lal. And the look of pain and sadness on his face when he reported to Picard that they failed. Definitely left him with honor and dignity others on this list don't have.
I don't think he deserves to be on this list. His argument was basically "let's be somewhat certain we don't have a skynet situation here before we give them a mass production option". Ya know kinda the same argument made in the "the ultimate computer". Like Polaski it only took some personal experience with Data to start to sway his (quite reasonable, given the track record Starfleet has with AI) doubt. He was cautious, not hatefull. He wanted to prevent cylons, not castrate an emerging lifeform.
Yeah, there were a lot of bad admirals in Star Trek, Haftel shouldn't be on this list. Having a well-meaning disagreement with the best of intentions doesn't remotely compare to all the admirals that were unbearably arrogant, criminal, stupid, corrupt, lazy, overly political/bureaucratic and/or borderline treasonous at times.
@@chukwudiilozue9171 Haha, fair point. Besides the coup d'etat attempt in DS9 I couldn't immediately think of any straight-forward treason, it's usually just criminal activity or plotting to obstruct/contravene Starfleet/Federation regs. And sometimes working with enemies of the Federation for their own agenda. But there have were so many dodgy admirals (and ambassadors, those are rotten with a pretty high degree of regularity) that I just couldn't remember the examples of open treason right at hand.
"The needs of the many" applied by own decision to sacrifice one self (Spock) vs "How many does it take Admiral" applied to a decision to sacrifice others. It's not about the number, it's about who decides for whom.
Similarly, Even if one was to sacrifice others, these must be people who have chosen to put their lives in your hands. In the episode where Troi is trying to become a bridge officer, she refuses to solve the problem with sacrifice, one of the things she has to learn, is being willing to send 1 man to die, to save the entire ship. The people the admiral was effectively sacrificing where just, civilians, people who had made no choices in the matters that lead them there. Their sacrifice was forced and not a willing one.
@@KenshiImmortalWolf Isn't this the 'I didn't vote for them, therefore I am not to blame false argument?' They willingly participated even if the outcome was not their preferred 'outcome'. If you, they, them, we join, allow or encourage a 'viewpoint, perspective or law' you have to face the consequences. Mostly because of apathy due to lack of earnest, educated engagement.
@@ATEC101 Not even. This is a false equivalent. First off the planet isn't even a federation member even if the population is few they did not choose to be in the federation. Second The comparison i am making is the difference between military and civilian. Starfleet officers go through rigorous training to know the risks involved in being part of starfleet, even if your goal is more scientific that is still risky because Starfleet handles very dangerous research in order to learn and to make things safer. Understanding leads to fewer people putting their lives at risk by passing something they don't know is dangerous. As such even if this world was a federation colony civilians are not subject to the demands of starfleet as they did not sign up for starfleet rules and regulations they are only there for the regulations of the federation and thus cannot just be displaced for the benefit one admiral sees in harvesting their worlds unique radiation. How you even drew this conclusion is beyond me honestly as i do not know where i left room for interpretations like this.
It's an ongoing reflection for picard. He mentions during TNG about the forced removal of native Americans and the conquering of entire nations. He also almost shaved it in Fordt Contact. "The invade entire world's and we fall back... the lone must be drawn here! This far, no further" That's just like our own history of subjugation. The needs of the many has been turned on its head by colonial powers for centuries. Its good that Star Trek acknowledges the crimes committed for millennia on earth... particularly Picard.
@@ATEC101 They aren't federation citizens. There have been cases before where people were given a choice between having to leave their planet or stay but renounce their citizenship (Journey's End). This situation is entirely different as the federation is quite literally invading their planet.
You should do another list with "10 most hated admirals" for those who were not as objectively bad at their job, but still big jerks with big insignias.
Surprised Admiral Buenamigo wasn't on here. I liked that he kinda gave an explanation for why the "evil" Admiral is such a common occurrence. Once you reach Admiral you hit a wall. You have to do something extreme to get noticed and make a difference.
Buenamigo definitely deserves a spot since he, like others on the list, willfully ordered the destruction of a Starfleet ship and its crew just to cover his own ass. I think he only gets a pass for now since the episode is still very new and thus could be considered a sort of spoiler for now.
No doubt this video was recorded before the last two episodes of Lower Decks. Otherwise Buenamigo would easily have taken #2 on this list (Cartwright still takes it by virtue of his actions in ST:VI)
@@TerenceLight not only that, he covered up Rutherford's involvement in the Texas Project after the accident that injured him, and then proceeded to use the EXTREMELY flawed AI code that Rutherford wrote which eventually ended his life by taking a Starship Grade phaser beam to the abdomen.
Props for the wonderful comments on the late Brock Peters. ST6 is my favorite TOS movie, fighting neck-and-neck to The Wrath of Khan, and he was so terrifying ruthless!
@SciFiDude79 Nichelle Nichols had the same issue with the line she was supposed to say about "Guess who's coming to dinner", hated it so much they gave the line to Chekov instead
6 Is hands down my favorite. So much of the movie slaps with great direction and acting. The allegories to current day racism and how to learn from it is something I feel Star Trek has been battling since ToS.
7:26 No Jamison died because he took BOTH doses. The people he procured it from clearly said that one dose was enough and would reverse his ageing slowly. Because he needed to be in “fighting fit” shape to fight Karnass, he took the dose intended for his wife as well. This is why he got younger very quickly, and it killed him.
Yes, his decision was a complete mistake to take both. He had the mind for things he didn't need the physical fitness as well but just had to be the big tough man for the battle and it killed him.
You forgot a big one. Admiral Kennelly ordered Picard and the Enterprise to stand down allowing the Cardassians to destroy a ship they believed were full of alleged Bajoran terrorists. This was the intro episode to Ensign Ro Laren.
@@seriascannain6675 Court martial at the least and probably jail time. He sanctioned and participated in what should have been numerous deaths, if not for Picard. Which probably saved his ass big time from far worse charges, like murder.
@@gbkworf He should have been sentence to serve time in the same cell as Captain Maxwell from 'The Wounded'. They would have made each others' lives miserable.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned from watching TNG, it’s that whenever an admiral beams onboard the Enterprise, they bring trouble with them. Is there something in the water over at Starfleet Command? There’s no shortage of Starfleet admirals who make absolutely terrible decisions, or break the very rules they’re supposed to uphold, or get involved in conspiracies.
The only Admiral to board the Enterprise D who wasn't a pain in the ass was Admiral Brackett. She went to talk to Picard, was cordial the whole time, informing him that Spock had disappeared and apparently was on Romulus and sent him to investigate. Just that.
Sounds like upper management in a nutshell. Comes in, unaware of what's going on, makes changes, demands things, and people are like, but it works the way it is.
According to Lower Decks, it happens because with little advancement options left once you are part of the Admirality, many tend to turn towards pet projects / private obsessions in order to stand out above their peers, leading to all sorts of idiosyncracies if left unchecked. So yeah, at the top many Admirals get bored and desperate to still one-up each others with notable performance, ending up as little more than twitchy mental wrecks
@@DerIrre1 This was one good justification, but I think the true problem lies a little deeper. Think about what Kirk says to Picard. "While you're there, you can make a difference." So who becomes admirals? There are only two types that I can think of. 1) Those, like Kirk, who didn't realize what they were giving up. 2) Those for whom making a difference was less important than status. The first group may result in good admirals, but ones who are not fully invested in being admirals, who may be looking for ways to make a difference, like Satie, or who pine for command of a ship, like Kirk. The second, though, are the ones who have the hubris, the pride to believe they know better, who think they should be calling the shots. Basically, I think the true problem lies in the very fabric of Star Fleet, connected to its weird dichotomy of being a military force, but also a scientific endeavor. Those two goals are often at odds. And who would really want to go from being the captain of a starship to sitting in an office? They really need to have admirals continue serving as ship commanders. There is no reason they need to all be on Earth, they can have subspace meetings from their ships.
One thing I've really appreciated about the last two seasons of Discovery is Admiral Vance is *good*. Good character, good admiral and even if he's having to adversarial for an episode, it's done in a way that you know he's doing things for the right reasons. I mean, you gotta have conflict between characters for a good story, after all!
Amazing actor. I was convinced when they introduced him that he was secretly a villain. What with him showing up in places where you'd expect a civilian leader, I expected him to be revealed to be a Leighton who'd succeeded. But then the next season you see how _relieved_ he is to have Rillak as POTUF, and my headcanon at least is that her predecessor just couldn't be arsed to be involved, so Vance was filling in as best he could.
@@GSBarlev Vance was doing what needed to be done. Which is a very dangerous position to be in since it can easily lead to overstepping if one gets too comfortable with it. As you say, Vance could easily have been *that* admiral and pretty much get away with it if he were a different person. It says a lot about someone to see them step up to leadership but also willingly give up the reigns when the crisis is passed. It’s a trait that few people possess. I know opinions vary a lot on the quality of Discovery’s character writing but it’s a credit to them to be able to write him like this while keeping him relatable. He’s not a larger than life hero. Vance is just… Good Boss.
Admiral Ross didn't undermine the Cretak because she might prove a threat, it was to ensure their actual spy (Koval) remained in place and above suspicion. Now that's still ruthlessly pragmatic, but it wasn't because he was worried about a more powerful Cretak.
Well, it was both. He said himself, she was a patriot, meaning she would throw the Federation under the bus if she thought the Romulans could come out better by making a deal with the Dominion.
One thing I loved about "The Drumhead" is that it finally showed NCOs in Starfleet. Most Naval ships have a huge number of them, but in Starfleet almost everyone is an officer. That's always annoyed me.
Chalk that up to Roddenberry who demanded everyone working onboard was a commissioned officer. As he gradually lost influence over the show, that loosened up.
Most of the shows deal with the Bridge staff who are all officers. That is true for most naval vessels. Whenever the show would go to other areas in the ship, you would see lower ranking crew members.
I totally agree, in the episode, he was even called--to his face--a "bad faith admiral" and he outright admitted to that. That alone should've put him in the #1 position, imho. Though I don't entirely disagree with the 'current' #1 on this list, he was at least ruled by fear and "thought" he was doing the "right thing". Buenamigo *knew* he was doing the wrong thing, *knew* he was taking shortcuts, *knew* he was doing this because of pride... and he still committed 100% to the role and didn't even try to redeem himself in the slightest.
Interestingly, Robert Foxworth, who played Admiral Leyton in DS9, also played General Hague in Babylon 5 (in fact, his B5 character was killed off because he was double-booked for both shows, preventing him from making what would probably have been his final B5 appearance). In both cases, he played a high-ranking Earth officer leading a coup against his own President. The difference, though, is that DS9's Jaresh-Inyo was the legitimate, duly-elected President of the United Federation of Planets, whom Leyton was trying to oust in an outright military coup. B5's President Clark, on the other hand, only became President by assassinating his predecessor (with alien help) and was himself turning the Earth Alliance from a democracy into a fascist dictatorship; so General Hague was, in fact, trying to employ a military coup to reinstate democracy. In DS9, Admiral Leyton wanted to introduce martial law against the President's wishes; in B5, General Hague's coup was instigated by President Clark's decision to implement martial law (and the murderous actions he took against the Mars provisional government when they refused to follow suit).
Found what Layton did was to show a weakness of how SF operated while he did in the wrong way. This channel misrepresented several adms. They were not evil, they did what thought was right. There were some adms, that were evil and stupid, the basic villain of the week kind.
@@angelphoenix7784 -- I don't know how "They thought they were doing the right thing" mitigates any of the fucked-up shit they did. And the title of the video is not, you'll notice, "10 Most Evil Admirals in Star Trek". It doesn't misrepresent them, it accurately describes the things they did.
@@ssblue8832 I'm going to use Layton as an example. What he did showed there were flaws and the Federation was vulnerable. If he didn't do what he did, do you really think SF would have countered the Brine like they did? The answer is no. So, he did was the right thing, he just did it the wrong way. Not sure how I can make this anymore clearer for you.
In an out-take from _Babylon 5_ the actor who was supposed to announce Hague's death said something like "he's on Deep Space Nine." (EDITED because someone below told the same story, but remembered it better.)
I definitely think Admiral Janeaway should be on this list, and high on it too, her breaking of the Temporal Prime Directive can never be excused, its potential for damage is higher than anything else on this list. And actions have consequences, and now she is in Prodigy could this past be coming back to haunt her, are her actions responsible for Chakotay's & The Protostar's disappearance, after all the Diviner may have encountered them in a future time and brought them back to the present? As you said on screen an admiral is responsible for many ships and decisions yet here she is off solo, on a wild goose chase
And to think her traveling to the past to right what was wrong could be justified if they made her future a bit more crapsack, such as by having the Borg taking over parts of Federation space or another nearby empire falling to them(such as the Romulans or Klingons, the latter possibly being a good justification for Miral's involvement). This would justify her going off and severely weakening the Borg. In fact, I think some of the old novels used that justification for her traveling back in time (and for the 29th century time police not bothering her).
@@hawkedarkblade5027 -- Uh, she did exactly what she was supposed to do. She destroyed the Omega molecules and never wavered from that goal. The only rule she broke was telling her senior staff about it, and she had a good reason for that; if they'd been in the Alpha Quadrant, a special team would have been sent to handle it, but she had nobody to help her except her officers. How sure are you that she could have done it without telling them?
SS Blue Janeway also genocided a civilization in the process. Just because the Omega Directive says she is allowed to does not mean she did not genocide a civilisation.
The first person who'd tell you that what Sisko did was just as wrong as what Ross did would be Sisko himself. Here's the thing, though - he'd be wrong. As bad as assassinating an ally to embroil their government in your war is, at least, at LEAST, there's a clear line from cause to effect there. With Ross? POSSIBLY Kreetak will turn on us. AFTER the war. MAYBE. Sisko's actions were borne out of cold pragmatism, but Ross? Nothing but fear.
I also don't like Ross siding with the Romulans against Bajor in the season 7 opener. Yes, this is a Federation decision, not a personal action, and yes it's very pragmatic (Romulan support more valuable against the Dominion), but it's such an egregious act of entitled colonial thinking... eurgh!
In "Star Trek IV", when Kirk was demoted back to captain, he didn't even see that as a punishment since he never wanted to be an admiral in the first place!
It really does make you wonder why he accepted the role in the first place. Or why he didn’t just step down voluntarily once he realized it didn’t suit him. I can’t imagine Starfleet would force Kirk to stay an admiral if he didn’t want it.
Frankly, I doubt _Starfleet_ saw it as a punishment either. It was most likely their way of rewarding him for saving Earth while making it look like they were punishing him to pacify the Klingons.
@@KentuckyKaiju The TMP novelisation (which was written by Gene Roddenberry himself) shows that Kirk was manipulated into accepting flag rank by Nogura. Of course this isn't strictly canon as it didn't appear on screen, even if it did come from Roddenberry, but it always made sense to me. A younger (40ish) Kirk was pushed into flag rank by a manipulative Starfleet commander but later came to resent it by the time he was pushing 50.
For me the one that hurt the most was Bill Ross. Up until that episode he was the perfect example of an Admiral that was tough but always fair and I think he was absolutely right that Jadzia Dax was qualified to lead missions as the Defiants commander. Side note I think there should be a list of Starfleet science medical, and specialist officers who would make excellent Captains. Jadzia Dax Beverly Crusher D'vana Tendi Spock Deanna Troi Christine Chapel Hoshi Sato Miles O'Brien The Doctor Carol Marcus (ST II) Hope everyone is having an excellent weekend 🖖
Come to think of it, Sarek should have recruited a Vulcan ship to infiltrate Genesis and retrieve Spock's body. I'm sure a Vulcan admiral would have understood the urgency.
I'm not so sure about that - Sarek himself admits his logic is compromised because of his sons "death" "What you seek has not been done since ages past, and then only in legend. Your request is not logical." "Forgive me, T'Lar. My logic is uncertain where my son is concerned." I don't think it's too farfetched other vulcans would come to the same conclusion as T'Lar
@@momokochama1844 To be fair, there proved to be both a living body and the mind of the body within another man. Leaving them separate was illogical, since that would guarantee the issue was never resolved. It's better to try and fail than not try at all. You at least gain the experience from the attempt.
@@PetersonZF There is a question, why did they go? Bones was the only hint that they needed to go back, as he was arrested trying to secure travel there. But my earlier comment was more to the point of Sarek's request at the end of the movie. All of the illogical things have happened. But the request itself made sense because the illogical choices actually made that request possible.
@@momokochama1844 although that's flawed logic since it's really logical that a parent would seek to do everything that they could to help their son, even if it meant doing what others considered illogical.
Great vid! Though I think you forgot about Admiral Janeway from Star Trek: Voyager's End Game finale. If you are going to make Admiral Kirk #2 on this list, then Janeway easily tops Kirk as she basically did the same thing as Kirk -- save her crew -- but on a dramatically larger scale. Janeway committed treason in her timeline in an effort to violate the temporal prime directive -- and succeeded! Janeway outright rewrote history to bring Voyager home, and the butterfly effects that came with that have never been explored to my knowledge, at least on screen. People completely written out of existence, etc; I love Star Trek: Voyager, and I love Captain Janeway, but, in the context of this video, using your own criteria for Kirk and omitting Janeway feels like an oversight. What Kirk did is small fries compared to how Janeway went about her mission.
I've always wondered why future Star Fleet didn't go back in time to prevent her from doing that, as like you said, it directly breaks the Temporal Prime Directive.
Absolutely agree. Even though during the episode people hope she succeeds , just like they hoped Harry succeeded in "Timeless." Nonetheless this is a blatant disregard of the temporal prime directive. Janeway should be on this list.
I like how, when Pressman decided to create a Federation cloaking device, he also made an improvement to the technology, rather than just purely trying to catch up to the Romulans level of cloaking technology.
True. The Romulans actually did experiment with a phasing cloak, resulting in the "deaths" of LaForge and Ro (they got better). So the Federation phased cloaking device was made before even the Romulan version.
Interesting seeing you here HCBailly. I'm a big trekkie too! more so now due to Star Wars being effectively a dead franchise to me. So I like watching these discussions a lot more than I do star wars stuff.
I still think that Admiral Lester Buenamigo is the worse admiral in Starfleet history. He created a class of ship that killed untold number of people, purposely set up a mission designed to fail, erased the memories of the original project head, and knew of a Breen incursion, but told no one just to prove a point.
and fully admitted it was because he wanted a legacy. He didn't even TRY to hide the fact that he was a prolapsed flaming butthole. I mean, at least he owned it?
I know someone is just handing you a script but THANK YOU for these videos, Mr. Ferrick! I love Star Trek so much and this is like having a new show to watch/listen to a few times a week.
Technically, the "Commodore" Rank would've suited him better. Kinda like a Flag captain or Super captain... who can also be called on to command a fleet in case of an all out strike. This would also grant him the ship he wanted (the Enterprise). You stay in the chair, which is all he really wanted in retrospect. However stealing the ship out of space dock? Commodore or not, this was a no-no. I keep hoping in a startrek series, instead of a captain, we'd get a commodore... especially since most where pretty twisted in ST, and usually war dogs.
The episode with Norah Satie, while a bit heavy-handed, still did a good job exploring the mechanism of a "witch hunt". Probably they meant to reference the McCarthy "Un-American Activities" hearings. It's good to remember that logic does not always equal the truth.
Even Spock told Kirk that it was a mistake for him to become an admiral. "Commanding a Starship is your first, best destiny. Anything else is a waste of material." - Star Trek II - The Wrath of Khan
@@robertszekely8686 no problem glad to help. only reason I remember it as well as I do is because it's the title of one of my favorite books that goes into Captain Kirk's backstory, plus fills in some of the gap between final frontier and the christening of the Enterprise B we see in Generations.
Excellent video Sean! I fully agree with you about Kirk (as well as several other admirals). The qualities that make a good admiral are not necessarily the qualities that make a good captain. But Star Fleet seems to work on the same kind of hierarchy and promotion path that every modern military I know of has. Somewhat simplified it's ensign, lieutenant, commander, captain, and admiral. The qualities that make a good captain -- the ability to be flexible, adjust to changing circumstances, taking responsibility for your own actions -- are not those that work for an admiral who has to take account of the big picture and oversee the implementation of Federation policies adopted by civilian government. You didn't include Admiral Nechayev on your list, even though many Trekkers find her annoying. Yet she was the admiral implementing Federation policy regarding the Maquis, even though it made her look bad.
Necheyev implemented the policy in the DMZ even though she disagreed with it - you see that in the TNG episode with the native Americans when Picard says that it is wrong and she agrees with him and says she actually tried to get the Federation Council to realise the error, that they were giving the Cardassians too much but was ignored - because it was her duty.
I think a dishonorable mention should go to the skeeviest admiral, J.P. Hanson, who made the ignoble comments to Picard about Cmdr Shelby "Keep your eye on her, Jean-Luc, she's a very impressive young lady" and "Just an old man's fantasies."
Fun list, Sean! Bold, but understandable, to put Kirk on there. I agree Kirk is not cut out to be an admiral - commodore (if that rank was still in starfleet) maybe - but he belongs on the bridge of starship.
A commodore only commands a few ships. In world war 2 the Battle of the River Plate was led by a Commodore who then got promoted to Rear Admiral. Just Star Trek makes things simple by calling them all Admirals since there are different ranks of Admiral that people may not be aware of.
Props to Brock Peters for portraying Cartwright so well and then turning around and playing Joseph Sisko. He really played the roles of the villain and good guy equally fantastically.
What I like about this list is these Admirals were not just “villains of the week.” Every actor or actress playing these characters really had to work hard and dig deep. Jean Simmons (Admiral Satie) gave my personal favourite acting performance on the list, but they were all terrific. Any bets on a new “Admiral story” for “Strange New Worlds?”
Did you notice how every Admiral on this list (Kelvin U notwithstanding) was from the Movie era through the TNG-Picard era? The Federation leadership in TOS/TAS has been universally portrayed in a positive light. Part of that reflects Roddenberry's utopic vision, but you also see ENT's Admiral Forrest, DIS's Admiral Cornwell and SNW's Admiral April portrayed with the same leadership traits--the admiralty of the TAS era had two jobs: - be the diplomatic paragons of Federation ideals - run interference for and generally cover the butts of the captains under their command With the exception of Ross, you don't see this again in Trek until Vance.
just when I got to thinking that you could've made a case for the number 2 admiral to be at number 1, the actual number 1 came along and it couldn't have been anyone else, in terms of the ramifications of their actions - thanks for the great list, @TrekCulture :)
Always found that really interesting. Roddenburry imagined a fairly utopian Federation by the time Next Generation rolled around so he banned most interpersonal conflict between the crew and claimed all humanity's ills were "cured" somehow... But because that completely obliterated dramatic potential beyond the "alien planet/ship of the week" they introduced this weird dynamic where like 90% of admirals are the most incompetent, selfish, corrupt or evil antagonists we ever see in the show, well except maybe the Romulans...
I read something someplace years ago when fans were taking note of the Dreadnaught model on Admiral Marcus' desk, and one of the directors or producers commented that it was an error. He wasn't on set that day, and if he had been, the model wouldn't have been there.
Even though it was listed as a mistake, I think that the Admiral was so consumed by his own (warped) self importance/narcissistic ideas - - that he would have allowed that ship model to be in plain site. It seems that no one mentioned that model to him and if they had, he most likely had an pat answer ready.
They didn't prove Data sentient. That part went without a ruling. What they ruled was that Data WASN'T Starfleet's property. That, again, is where the problem lands. But I feel the Admiral was silently redeemed in the end, as he saw first hand just how much Data loved his daughter, even if Data himself couldn't register that he did.
As an aside, many of the worries the Admiral had did have merit. But he, unfortunately, thought about things more as a scientist. At no point, however, did it seem like he had gone over Data's documentation. I mean, it's Data. There's documentation. He did go about things wrong, but seeing Data try to save her showed him that nobody could have done a better job in the attempt.
We need a best admiral list, I don't think there will be many none the less, it will be a good video to go in-depth on their actions which made them the best admiral.
I suddenly considered the time-travelling Admiral Janeway. Although her motives were to save her crew earlier(especially Tuvok), she did stuff. She stole advanced technology, messed with the timeline, introduced the Borg to tech that won’t exist for 30 years(remember, their best trait is that they adapt and quickly) and clearly threw every rule and common sense out the window. While still a captain, she had several time travel encounters as well as cautions from the 29th century, so she of all people should know better.
Have to agree, this was one of the most selfish acts committed by an admiral. No noble cause for the Federation. At least Satie was trying to save Starfleet or believed she was. Pressman was trying to give the Federation a major strategic advantage. But Janeway just wanted to save a few friends from an action she took upon herself to why they were stranded out there in the first place.
Although to be fair when she sacrificed herself to be assimilated and infect the Borg Consciousness it's possible part of her planning included a specially prepared virus to destroy the information from the future before the Borg could permanently assimilate it. She did have some pretty detailed plans and decades of effort put into planning for it.
Not a huge fan of Star Trek 7, but I always liked that conversation between Kirk and Picard. And Picard seems to have taken it to heart too, seeing how he is still in the captains chair during Star Trek 10 while Janeway has already (deservedly) moved up the ladder.
Hoping this is leading to a Best Admirals list! So many of the admirals we encounter are tragic figures, and it isn't even limited to Starfleet, but they do take the biscuit!
Awesome list. Have to love some evil admirals. The "there's only 1 starship available" makes little sense in other situations in some previous Trek, but much more sense in this Coup situation. The Admiral in charge of that area of space planned it out that way so there would be only one starfleet ship there at that time, and likely make it so there wouldn't be any non-starfleet capital class ships in the area at the time either. I think my favorite "evil admiral" on this list is Satie. The actor does a wonderful job playing a character who thinks they're correct, and even convincing a main character, Worf, that she's doing the right thing, and it's so insidious, and Patrick Stewart gives a moving speech, that speaks directly to the viewers, it's a wonderful episode.
Tbh, I don't blame Ross. He saw the bigger picture, something a good leader has to do, even if it doesn't look good today, the ends do sometimes justify the means. Remember, the Romulan alliance with the Federation against the Dominion was not because they agreed to set aside centuries of hostility and make peace, it was entirely one of convenience. They may very well go back to being an enemy to the Federation and that would be worse since the war will weaken them.
I believe someone tells Sisko that if he ever tried another stunt like that again, they would either promote him to punish or reward him. It seems the Captain's seat is the best seat. You have the most power, while still being in the thick of things. Some paper work, but not the huge amounts admirals would have to do at a cushy desk. And he gets to control a ship and make important decisions on the ground so to speak.
Dax said it best. It wasn't enough for him to make the decisions, he had to be the one to implement them. same as Dukat who was a Legate, but kept the Gul title because he could be closer to the front line.
Odd though, as most of Sisko's duties were bureaucratic paperwork on a fixed space station. If it wasn't for wartime, Sisko's job as commanding officer would be quite a snore compared to commanding a full blown starship.
@@oldtwinsna8347 he was on away missions even before the Dominion War, however. But you are right. He was stationary, not like Picard or Kirk or Archer on the Enterprises where they left the ship more. The other three were captains as well.
I see your list and I raise you admiral Les Buenamigo! Also I would say Ross should be on it as well for his actions with the Romulan hospital on the Bajoran moon - he comes around at the end thanks to Major Kira
Brock Peterrs is a amazing actor and deserves recognition for his contribution to Star Trek. I think the best actor playing a bad admiral was Jean Simmons.Her scenes with Picardi in the courtroom scenes were some of the best acting inn Star Trek Next Generations fourth season.
Kirk sucked as an Admiral, true, but Starfleet seems to have understood this, and did what I like to call "promote him back to Captain" where he always was the most useful. I also got the sense that at the very least by WOK, if not TPM already, he really regretted taking that promotion. Hell, by Generations he straight up tells Picard not to do it if it's offered.
Indeed, Kirk _hated_ being an admiral. He's very hands on, and is not the kind of guy who wants to be stuck behind a desk. He would rather sit in the captain's seat, and go on adventures across the galaxy.
@@Akira625 James T Kirk: “Vice Admirals don’t fly, do they?” Commodore Paris: “No. They don’t.” James T Kirk: “No offence Ma’am, but... where’s the fun in that?”
Spock outright tells Kirk in Wrath of Khan "If I may be so bold, it was a mistake for you to accept promotion. Commanding a starship is your first, best destiny; anything else is a waste of material."
The one I was surprised you didn't put on is Picard during season 3 of Star Trek Picard. He effectively stole the Titan-A to search for Beverly, lied to Shaw, put the crew in danger, engaged in fire with an unidentified vessel (the Shrike), and essentially put the Federation at war with the Borg. Yes it saved the Federation but he should have done the proper thing by going through the proper channels, regardless of the changeling infiltration. That would have been better. In my opinion at least. Just my thoughts.
The problems I see with that is first, he's a retired admiral. I know that's semantics but it does affect his access and options, and next. He knew the changelings infiltrated Starfleet (or was suspicious in the beginning because of Crusher's message to him) so going through proper channels wouldn't have helped and/or would just have gotten the changelings to hinder him much earlier and more forcefully in his venture.
@@_Omega_Weapon While yes I understand that part. I know he could have chosen other avenues of reliable sources to go through and not steal a ship like we see in SNW S2E1 when Spock "steals" the Enterprise to go to Cajitar IV. The retired Admiral is, as you pointed out, semantics. It still was something he did on his own with only his view to go on and Laris which we never found out what happened to her after those events. So it wouldn't make sense to not have him on the list. Yes I understand your view and do take your points into consideration but I still think they should have included Picard on the list.
@@_Omega_Weapon Also one other thing I forgot to mention, he never knew that the changelings infiltrated Starfleet until he was already aboard the Titan-A. So, he could have very well gone through the proper channels prior to even arriving on the Titan. Hell, at the very least he could have told Shaw and Seven about the plan and been very specific about Beverly's instructions. That is just something that I believe he could have done. Besides, during his time on the Enterprise-D he was very much about following the rules and protocols. So his life as an Admiral (Retired) should have been no different than being an active Captain.
I’d love to see a “top ten out of character actions”. Things like neelix in mortal coil, sisko in in the pale moonlight. Even Picard losing his cool in first contact. It’s fun seeing the actors stretch their muscles. And yes, I am available for the video.
I feel like all of these are more of an extension of the character in some way with only really Neelix's coming out of no where but still understandable. He lost his family and believed he would see them again but then had something come up to shake that faith. Picard did have a couple of dealings with the Borg after his trauma but add to that them taking over his ship, killing his crew and the voices of the Queen he could hear it doesn't feel too far a step. As for Sisko he had shown in the past that he would always do what he believed to be what was needed even if others would disagree
Yeah those are all absolutely valid reasons for the actions but they still are abnormal behavior for the characters. The reasoning behind it could be part of the video even. I will definitely grant that the sisko example is not the best example.
Liked the mention of Kirk. You’ve dug deep in researching this list! Well done. Just goes to show that “Badmiral” is becoming cliché at this point of Star Trek shows.
At first I was surprised about Necheyev not being on this list, but while she regularly screwed over our beloved Captains and Commanders, she never actively betrayed Starfleet or the Federation, and actually generally had the best interests of Starfleet in mind. She was also right more often than she was wrong, annoying as it was. The one time she did seem to be betraying Starfleet, the Federation, and the entire Alpha Quadrant to the Dominion, it turned out she was a hologram and it was a test to fomd how determined Sisko and crew were to keep the Dominion from gaining a foothold. She'd probably make a most hated Starfleet Admirals list though....
@@zt1053 I don't think she was incompetent either. She certainly was brusque, rude, and annoying, but she was also usually in the right, and doing what she did for the good of Starfleet/the Federation. (Just that she also had a tendency to follow the regulations, which is something we loved most of our Captains for NOT doing.)
@@xyz.ijk. I said "usually" in the right. That was definitely one where she was not, but the rest of the Federation was going along with it too, so everyone but Wesley was in the wrong, reluctantly or otherwise.
Sean, do you write your own scripts? Just saying, I really love how much depth and insight (and frequent silliness 😜) you put into your pieces. Both entertaining and thought-provoking... with a dash of good feels on the side. 😻👍
We may need a worst commodores list sometime. Commodore Stocker, "The Deadly Years" would have to be on the list. Commodore Decker, "The Doomsday Machine," too. Maybe Commodore Travers, "Arena," thrown in since he was KIA. Sad since Commodore Travers was known for his "hospitality," according to McCoy.
What do you think about admiral Nechayev? I'm not sure she was exactly "bad," but she put Captain Picard in uncomfortable positions more than once. Usually enforcing bad policy along the cardassian border concerning the Maquis
She's a bit of a B in the novels as well. Including one incident I remember that brought her at odds with Jellico (Who was the head of Starfleet by then) in the Destiny series.
Would be difficult, being a hardass doesn't make you a bad admiral. It makes you someone who knows your job is not to make friends, but to get results. The only thing she did that could get her on a "worst admirals" list wasn't even done by her, but rather a Dominion Holodeck program.
She was one of the best. Flat out put Picard into his place that he serves the best interests of the Federation and its citizens and so he needed to do away with his personal discomfort in making decisions.
Also Admiral Vance. Easily the most reasonable Admiral we’ve seen yet. Even when he creates a roadblock, it’s for entirely understandable reasons and he actually bothers to listen to those under them instead of being an autocrat.
I would say Admiral Janeway for a similar read as Admiral Kirk. Kirk had his 5 year mission; historic in the annals of the Federation, but Star Fleet was always a call away (If budget wasn’t an issue). Janeway had Jack and… well Forensign Kim. Idea for a topic I don’t think I’ve seen. Facts about the Prometheus Class attack vessels. As Voyager goes on; we learn about Dr. Zimmerman’s not such good luck making the perfect permanent medical hologram but that vessel in addition to its holo emitters being in Jeffries tubes of all places it had the unique but extremely effective multi vector attack mode; not seen in Picard. That seems like a saucer separation++. I thought that class ship was so cool!… only to find the PADD in the waste bin.
Hats off for not taking the easy route of including Necheyev in here just because she was annoying. Her smug face and dismissive tone was akin to Kai Wynn and she was seriously displeasing, but she was not evil or actually bad. She was simply the embodiment of bureaucracy.
Exactly.. Necheyev was a career Starfleet officer.. One that got the job done and could make the hard decisions when called upon.. Still she did have her light moments and was willing to show that she was in fact human. That scene when Picard made sure to have her favorite food on hand Bulgarian Canapes... The next time the two would meet she chided him about that when he didn't serve them but added. "They are too fattening anyways." The only thing that I didn't like that she did was transferring command of the Enterprise D to Jellico with next to no warning to either Picard or the ship's crew... The only good thing to come out of that whole situation was the fact that Jellico ordered Troi to wear a standard uniform while on duty...
Necheyev is a victim of being a very bad people person. She was almost always right to some extent and had a good grasp of the bigger picture, but seemed to have zero conception of the human cost of her decisions, often leaving those as Somebody Else’s Problem. This no doubt made her a great high level strategist, but a godawful leader. Definitely not a Badmiral, but certainly not someone I’d ever want to work for. Necheyev is the very personification of out-of-touch Upper Management.
@@KentuckyKaiju That shit is probably why the Dominion used her in their scenario to see how Sisko and the others would act if they tried to claim peace. She's definitely one admiral that would actually believe their bullshit.
Bit surprised that Admiral Janeway from Endgame isn't on the list she in effect wipes billions of people from existence by changing the timeline because she didn't like the fact that she didn't get Seven of Nine back to the Alpha Quadrant.
Another nominee for the list might be Admiral Nechayev (played by Natalija Nogulich). In both TNG and DS9, she appears to act (other than some smugness in her decisions) without much regard to her emotions (which might be good), but she also seems to have understanding of anyone else's emotions or priorities (such as the Maquis and the inhabitants of the border area in general). You can see Sisko trying to control himself around her (when he really wants to yell "You're an idiot"!) and he only later explodes in front of Kira.
You have a very good point with regards to putting Admiral Nechayev to this list. Let us not also forget that she on one occasion she wanted Picard to relocate some Native American Indians from a planet, because it was being handed over to the Cardassians as part of a change of a treaty of that planet. One person who knew that this order was wrong is Wesley Crusher.
@@john.premose that's true. But it's odd how an ensign could see that this is wrong and the rest of the Federation couldn't. Maybe the ensign should be promoted to the admiral's position.
I feel the need to comment on "the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few." Spock was explicitly talking in terms of personal sacrifice and not objective sacrifice. Actions taking on the behalf of *oneself* for the group rather then justification for the exploitation of "the few." The exploitation of the few for the many is the philosophy of the Borg, "We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile." How is that anything less the the needs of the many (the Collective) taking place before the needs of the few (everyone else.)
One thing that is scary in the Star Trek universe is how secretive the ranks are. Captains know certain things that they aren’t allowed to talk about like omega and have very specific orders about. What crazy stuff are Admirals not able to talk about and how does that affect their view of the universe.
This is the case in every "ranked" structure in human society and is not unique to Starfleet. "Heavy is the head that wears the crown." As a security officer in a busy mall, I'm aware of things happening around it that would shock the people visiting, and my supervisors are aware of things that they keep from me for similar reasons. In a family, the kids might be oblivious to their parents financial struggles, who are in turn unaware of medical problems the grandparents are dealing with. We compartmentalise information all the time, just what controls the 'need to know' varies.
That is pretty commonly shown in fiction though you often hear about someone saying in one way or another this is on a need to know basis and you don't need to know
I'm glad you didn't mention that admiral from discovery. Not for any of the reasons you mentioned but because it makes it feel like discovery doesn't exist when you don't talk about it
I knew Kirk would be on this list because of his speech in Generations and the way his sentence was handed down in IV. He never wanted to be a paper-pusher. He was a man of action, and flying a desk discomfited him so much that he did everything he could to get back into the captain's chair.
BS top spot goes to Admiral Janeway. As an admiral, she lied, stole a ship, stole classified experimental technology, violated the temporal prime directive by going back in time and contacting herself, then used said technology to commit a blatant act of GENOCIDE by wiping out the Borg race. The fact that the starfleet sections in future responsible for keeping the timeline pure (and repairing Janeways damage to it) did NOT take actions to prevent the Borg genocide by a time traveling Janeway from another continuity speaks volumes about the morality of Starfleet in the future
@SciFiDude79 It did happen because the corpse of Admiral Janeway was still in the new timeline. Like when captain whatshisnutz got trapped in 2oth century Los Angeles they dudes monitoring the timelines had to retrieve his butt and reintegrate him with the other hims. So same rules apply, that the alternate time lines did happen are still physically extant at some level.
Genocide is normally unconscionable of course, but it could be argued that there are no 'innocents' among the Borg because they are all part of the same collective mind. Just as killing in self-defence isn't murder, maybe wiping out the Borg is justified if it's the only way to stop them doing the same to you.
Admiral Clancy is a legend! Picard basically quit years ago in a fit of pique, then swans back in all like "years, gimme a ship, but, just a captain"....
Nope, not gonna go down 'that' rabbit hole again. Recently you had some marvelous lists of Star Trek Ensigns, and I ended up wondering how many Ensign's had there been in Star Trek. Answer was, over 300, that I found. (Not including books.) So I thought, well... there certainly aren't as many Admirals... but nope not going to try that again. That said, how 'bout a list of the best Admirals? As always thank you so very much for the video.
Jean-Luc HAS shown hubris, actually: In Q Who? he arrogantly turned down Q’s offer to guide the Enterprise D through space- an act that brought the NCC 1701 D to meeting and confronting the Borg- and where Picard practically begged Q to get his crew out of there ASAP when things went south. Way south in this case.
The first thing I thought when I saw this was "Admiral Haftal better not be on this list".. I have to say I am disappointed. He redeemed himself beautifully and was an incredible character.
With regards to Kirk and his brief time in the Admirality that was a result of the fact most of the creative team were ex Navy and in their time in the Navy senior Captains were given the option of "moving up or moving out" creating a shedload of crap Admirals who just wanted to get a boat back.
Commodore is a rank between Captain and Admiral. As Starfleet is a mix between American and British Naval Ranks from the late 19th and early 20th Century.
One thing about Cartwright. He was in start trek 4 at starfleet headquarters during the probe attack. Just shows how much a person changes when they "go wrong"
In defense of James T. Kirk, I believe that he would have had a brilliant career as a Starfleet admiral, had he been promoted to flag rank in wartime. Unfortunately, his ability to grok his enemies was of little use in a Starfleet at peace.
My father was a Colonel in the US Air Force as Air Police and attached to the Defense Atomic Support Agency back in the 1960's and he always said that sometimes he and higher ups had to do bad things to protect our country.
Sean, I think you ranked Kirk too high on that list, but I actually agree he should be on this list. Kirk's actions were not evil, but there were unethical in that he put his interests and the interests of Spock (and maybe Vulcan) ahead of the needs of the Federation. Kirk was a great Captain, but he had no business being an Admiral.
@@MGower4465 kirk made a mistake accepting to be an admiral. Its why his punishment for his actions is to be "demoted" to captain. The federation now knows where this man truly belongs. On the bridge of the enterprise.
Loved the list..especially the inclusion of the last with his awesome performance of Cartwright..that should have gotten him vast accolades..instead..it seems swept away. I feel hurt as anyone at least a speck of empathy should.
I truly love how quickly Admiral Haftal "scrubbed in" to help Data try to save Lal. And the look of pain and sadness on his face when he reported to Picard that they failed. Definitely left him with honor and dignity others on this list don't have.
thats one side of the coin. the other side is that it was probably his plan to take her away from Data that lead to her breakdown
I don't think he deserves to be on this list.
His argument was basically "let's be somewhat certain we don't have a skynet situation here before we give them a mass production option". Ya know kinda the same argument made in the "the ultimate computer".
Like Polaski it only took some personal experience with Data to start to sway his (quite reasonable, given the track record Starfleet has with AI) doubt.
He was cautious, not hatefull. He wanted to prevent cylons, not castrate an emerging lifeform.
Yeah, there were a lot of bad admirals in Star Trek, Haftel shouldn't be on this list. Having a well-meaning disagreement with the best of intentions doesn't remotely compare to all the admirals that were unbearably arrogant, criminal, stupid, corrupt, lazy, overly political/bureaucratic and/or borderline treasonous at times.
@@jong.7944 Borderline?
@@chukwudiilozue9171 Haha, fair point. Besides the coup d'etat attempt in DS9 I couldn't immediately think of any straight-forward treason, it's usually just criminal activity or plotting to obstruct/contravene Starfleet/Federation regs. And sometimes working with enemies of the Federation for their own agenda. But there have were so many dodgy admirals (and ambassadors, those are rotten with a pretty high degree of regularity) that I just couldn't remember the examples of open treason right at hand.
"The needs of the many" applied by own decision to sacrifice one self (Spock) vs "How many does it take Admiral" applied to a decision to sacrifice others. It's not about the number, it's about who decides for whom.
Similarly, Even if one was to sacrifice others, these must be people who have chosen to put their lives in your hands. In the episode where Troi is trying to become a bridge officer, she refuses to solve the problem with sacrifice, one of the things she has to learn, is being willing to send 1 man to die, to save the entire ship.
The people the admiral was effectively sacrificing where just, civilians, people who had made no choices in the matters that lead them there. Their sacrifice was forced and not a willing one.
@@KenshiImmortalWolf Isn't this the 'I didn't vote for them, therefore I am not to blame false argument?' They willingly participated even if the outcome was not their preferred 'outcome'. If you, they, them, we join, allow or encourage a 'viewpoint, perspective or law' you have to face the consequences. Mostly because of apathy due to lack of earnest, educated engagement.
@@ATEC101 Not even. This is a false equivalent. First off the planet isn't even a federation member even if the population is few they did not choose to be in the federation. Second The comparison i am making is the difference between military and civilian. Starfleet officers go through rigorous training to know the risks involved in being part of starfleet, even if your goal is more scientific that is still risky because Starfleet handles very dangerous research in order to learn and to make things safer. Understanding leads to fewer people putting their lives at risk by passing something they don't know is dangerous. As such even if this world was a federation colony civilians are not subject to the demands of starfleet as they did not sign up for starfleet rules and regulations they are only there for the regulations of the federation and thus cannot just be displaced for the benefit one admiral sees in harvesting their worlds unique radiation.
How you even drew this conclusion is beyond me honestly as i do not know where i left room for interpretations like this.
It's an ongoing reflection for picard. He mentions during TNG about the forced removal of native Americans and the conquering of entire nations.
He also almost shaved it in Fordt Contact.
"The invade entire world's and we fall back... the lone must be drawn here! This far, no further"
That's just like our own history of subjugation. The needs of the many has been turned on its head by colonial powers for centuries. Its good that Star Trek acknowledges the crimes committed for millennia on earth... particularly Picard.
@@ATEC101 They aren't federation citizens. There have been cases before where people were given a choice between having to leave their planet or stay but renounce their citizenship (Journey's End). This situation is entirely different as the federation is quite literally invading their planet.
You should do another list with "10 most hated admirals" for those who were not as objectively bad at their job, but still big jerks with big insignias.
Number one should be that c**t Admiral Alynna Nechayev. My god she had such a bad attitude every time she showed up.
That would be good
You just REALLY want Admiral Clancy on a list, don't you 😂
@@TheFiddleFaddle yep
Nechayev... hands down
Surprised Admiral Buenamigo wasn't on here. I liked that he kinda gave an explanation for why the "evil" Admiral is such a common occurrence. Once you reach Admiral you hit a wall. You have to do something extreme to get noticed and make a difference.
Buenamigo definitely deserves a spot since he, like others on the list, willfully ordered the destruction of a Starfleet ship and its crew just to cover his own ass. I think he only gets a pass for now since the episode is still very new and thus could be considered a sort of spoiler for now.
lol I just posted his name then saw that you did.
It was also a nice explanation as to why admirals go bad. They all try to make a name for themselves.
No doubt this video was recorded before the last two episodes of Lower Decks. Otherwise Buenamigo would easily have taken #2 on this list (Cartwright still takes it by virtue of his actions in ST:VI)
@@TerenceLight not only that, he covered up Rutherford's involvement in the Texas Project after the accident that injured him, and then proceeded to use the EXTREMELY flawed AI code that Rutherford wrote which eventually ended his life by taking a Starship Grade phaser beam to the abdomen.
Props for the wonderful comments on the late Brock Peters. ST6 is my favorite TOS movie, fighting neck-and-neck to The Wrath of Khan, and he was so terrifying ruthless!
@SciFiDude79 Nichelle Nichols had the same issue with the line she was supposed to say about "Guess who's coming to dinner", hated it so much they gave the line to Chekov instead
6 Is hands down my favorite. So much of the movie slaps with great direction and acting. The allegories to current day racism and how to learn from it is something I feel Star Trek has been battling since ToS.
At the end of 6, she has a line "I felt like Lt. Valeris."
7:26 No Jamison died because he took BOTH doses. The people he procured it from clearly said that one dose was enough and would reverse his ageing slowly. Because he needed to be in “fighting fit” shape to fight Karnass, he took the dose intended for his wife as well. This is why he got younger very quickly, and it killed him.
Yes, his decision was a complete mistake to take both. He had the mind for things he didn't need the physical fitness as well but just had to be the big tough man for the battle and it killed him.
Is it just me or do Sean and trekculture at large miss a huuuuuuuge amount of this stuff?
Honorable mention to Admiral Kennelly who was tricked by the Cardassians although he clearly knew something since he was being covert on his own.
I was quite surprised that he didn't appear on this list.
I thought of him as well.
I think your bit on Admiral Kirk was spot on, great captain, lousy admiral lol
You forgot a big one. Admiral Kennelly ordered Picard and the Enterprise to stand down allowing the Cardassians to destroy a ship they believed were full of alleged Bajoran terrorists. This was the intro episode to Ensign Ro Laren.
You beat me to that comment! I wonder what his punishment for these actions was!?
@@seriascannain6675 Court martial at the least and probably jail time. He sanctioned and participated in what should have been numerous deaths, if not for Picard. Which probably saved his ass big time from far worse charges, like murder.
Speaking of stand down orders, Admiral Hayes surely would have been involved in the decision to withhold the Enterprise from the Battle of Sector 001.
@@gbkworf He should have been sentence to serve time in the same cell as Captain Maxwell from 'The Wounded'. They would have made each others' lives miserable.
@@dragonfireideas yeah but hayes didnt do it out of an agenda and wasnt a bad admiral. he had good reasons for it. he was just wrong
I 100% understand why Adm. Buenamigo isn't on this list... but any adminal named "Good Friend" is definitely not one.
I was suspicious of him once I heard that name...
He was a suspicious fellow from the get go.
You know that Starfleet is corrupt af when Buenamigo isn't even on the top 10
Perhaps this video was recorded before that episode was released.
@@ussgettysburg316 then you'd go and reedit. ok, the algorithm needs constant feedings but not at this cost of content.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned from watching TNG, it’s that whenever an admiral beams onboard the Enterprise, they bring trouble with them. Is there something in the water over at Starfleet Command? There’s no shortage of Starfleet admirals who make absolutely terrible decisions, or break the very rules they’re supposed to uphold, or get involved in conspiracies.
The only Admiral to board the Enterprise D who wasn't a pain in the ass was Admiral Brackett. She went to talk to Picard, was cordial the whole time, informing him that Spock had disappeared and apparently was on Romulus and sent him to investigate. Just that.
Sounds like upper management in a nutshell. Comes in, unaware of what's going on, makes changes, demands things, and people are like, but it works the way it is.
According to Lower Decks, it happens because with little advancement options left once you are part of the Admirality, many tend to turn towards pet projects / private obsessions in order to stand out above their peers, leading to all sorts of idiosyncracies if left unchecked.
So yeah, at the top many Admirals get bored and desperate to still one-up each others with notable performance, ending up as little more than twitchy mental wrecks
Washington
@@DerIrre1 This was one good justification, but I think the true problem lies a little deeper.
Think about what Kirk says to Picard. "While you're there, you can make a difference." So who becomes admirals? There are only two types that I can think of. 1) Those, like Kirk, who didn't realize what they were giving up. 2) Those for whom making a difference was less important than status. The first group may result in good admirals, but ones who are not fully invested in being admirals, who may be looking for ways to make a difference, like Satie, or who pine for command of a ship, like Kirk. The second, though, are the ones who have the hubris, the pride to believe they know better, who think they should be calling the shots.
Basically, I think the true problem lies in the very fabric of Star Fleet, connected to its weird dichotomy of being a military force, but also a scientific endeavor. Those two goals are often at odds. And who would really want to go from being the captain of a starship to sitting in an office?
They really need to have admirals continue serving as ship commanders. There is no reason they need to all be on Earth, they can have subspace meetings from their ships.
I thank you for adding Kirk. Seriously; Kirk himself knew he was not cut out to be an Admiral, and he referred to that on several occasions.
I would really love to see you guys rank all the Star Trek doctors from worst to best
One thing I've really appreciated about the last two seasons of Discovery is Admiral Vance is *good*. Good character, good admiral and even if he's having to adversarial for an episode, it's done in a way that you know he's doing things for the right reasons. I mean, you gotta have conflict between characters for a good story, after all!
Amazing actor. I was convinced when they introduced him that he was secretly a villain. What with him showing up in places where you'd expect a civilian leader, I expected him to be revealed to be a Leighton who'd succeeded.
But then the next season you see how _relieved_ he is to have Rillak as POTUF, and my headcanon at least is that her predecessor just couldn't be arsed to be involved, so Vance was filling in as best he could.
@@GSBarlev Vance was doing what needed to be done. Which is a very dangerous position to be in since it can easily lead to overstepping if one gets too comfortable with it. As you say, Vance could easily have been *that* admiral and pretty much get away with it if he were a different person.
It says a lot about someone to see them step up to leadership but also willingly give up the reigns when the crisis is passed. It’s a trait that few people possess.
I know opinions vary a lot on the quality of Discovery’s character writing but it’s a credit to them to be able to write him like this while keeping him relatable. He’s not a larger than life hero. Vance is just… Good Boss.
Admiral Ross didn't undermine the Cretak because she might prove a threat, it was to ensure their actual spy (Koval) remained in place and above suspicion. Now that's still ruthlessly pragmatic, but it wasn't because he was worried about a more powerful Cretak.
Well, it was both. He said himself, she was a patriot, meaning she would throw the Federation under the bus if she thought the Romulans could come out better by making a deal with the Dominion.
Exactly, that episode was about getting Koval promoted in Romulan govt. Cretak would have been sacrificed no matter what.
One thing I loved about "The Drumhead" is that it finally showed NCOs in Starfleet. Most Naval ships have a huge number of them, but in Starfleet almost everyone is an officer. That's always annoyed me.
This former NCO has always been annoyed by that. We're the backbone of the services, damn it! LOL
Chalk that up to Roddenberry who demanded everyone working onboard was a commissioned officer. As he gradually lost influence over the show, that loosened up.
@@oldtwinsna8347 Huh, I didn't know that. Thanks for the factoid!
@@jameswhitfield6220 Yeah man, I have a cousin who actually is an officer in the Navy and he says the exact same thing.
Most of the shows deal with the Bridge staff who are all officers. That is true for most naval vessels. Whenever the show would go to other areas in the ship, you would see lower ranking crew members.
How is Admiral Buenamigo not on here? He was literally going to murder an entire starship crew to cover up the flaws of his pet project.
my guess is this was filmed before the release?
I totally agree, in the episode, he was even called--to his face--a "bad faith admiral" and he outright admitted to that. That alone should've put him in the #1 position, imho. Though I don't entirely disagree with the 'current' #1 on this list, he was at least ruled by fear and "thought" he was doing the "right thing". Buenamigo *knew* he was doing the wrong thing, *knew* he was taking shortcuts, *knew* he was doing this because of pride... and he still committed 100% to the role and didn't even try to redeem himself in the slightest.
Interestingly, Robert Foxworth, who played Admiral Leyton in DS9, also played General Hague in Babylon 5 (in fact, his B5 character was killed off because he was double-booked for both shows, preventing him from making what would probably have been his final B5 appearance). In both cases, he played a high-ranking Earth officer leading a coup against his own President. The difference, though, is that DS9's Jaresh-Inyo was the legitimate, duly-elected President of the United Federation of Planets, whom Leyton was trying to oust in an outright military coup. B5's President Clark, on the other hand, only became President by assassinating his predecessor (with alien help) and was himself turning the Earth Alliance from a democracy into a fascist dictatorship; so General Hague was, in fact, trying to employ a military coup to reinstate democracy. In DS9, Admiral Leyton wanted to introduce martial law against the President's wishes; in B5, General Hague's coup was instigated by President Clark's decision to implement martial law (and the murderous actions he took against the Mars provisional government when they refused to follow suit).
Huh. Leyton was only in a couple of episodes of _DS9_ IIRC. Seems odd that they couldn't work around it.
Found what Layton did was to show a weakness of how SF operated while he did in the wrong way. This channel misrepresented several adms. They were not evil, they did what thought was right. There were some adms, that were evil and stupid, the basic villain of the week kind.
@@angelphoenix7784 -- I don't know how "They thought they were doing the right thing" mitigates any of the fucked-up shit they did. And the title of the video is not, you'll notice, "10 Most Evil Admirals in Star Trek". It doesn't misrepresent them, it accurately describes the things they did.
@@ssblue8832 I'm going to use Layton as an example. What he did showed there were flaws and the Federation was vulnerable. If he didn't do what he did, do you really think SF would have countered the Brine like they did? The answer is no. So, he did was the right thing, he just did it the wrong way. Not sure how I can make this anymore clearer for you.
In an out-take from _Babylon 5_ the actor who was supposed to announce Hague's death said something like "he's on Deep Space Nine." (EDITED because someone below told the same story, but remembered it better.)
I definitely think Admiral Janeaway should be on this list, and high on it too, her breaking of the Temporal Prime Directive can never be excused, its potential for damage is higher than anything else on this list. And actions have consequences, and now she is in Prodigy could this past be coming back to haunt her, are her actions responsible for Chakotay's & The Protostar's disappearance, after all the Diviner may have encountered them in a future time and brought them back to the present? As you said on screen an admiral is responsible for many ships and decisions yet here she is off solo, on a wild goose chase
And to think her traveling to the past to right what was wrong could be justified if they made her future a bit more crapsack, such as by having the Borg taking over parts of Federation space or another nearby empire falling to them(such as the Romulans or Klingons, the latter possibly being a good justification for Miral's involvement). This would justify her going off and severely weakening the Borg. In fact, I think some of the old novels used that justification for her traveling back in time (and for the 29th century time police not bothering her).
Not to mention Janeway's breaking of every rule pertaining to the Omega Directive and nearly destroying light years of subspace.
@@hawkedarkblade5027 -- Uh, she did exactly what she was supposed to do. She destroyed the Omega molecules and never wavered from that goal. The only rule she broke was telling her senior staff about it, and she had a good reason for that; if they'd been in the Alpha Quadrant, a special team would have been sent to handle it, but she had nobody to help her except her officers. How sure are you that she could have done it without telling them?
SS Blue
Janeway also genocided a civilization in the process. Just because the Omega Directive says she is allowed to does not mean she did not genocide a civilisation.
@@schwarzerritter5724 Precisely!
Can’t agree with Ross, he did what was needed to save the federation just like sisko did with senator vreenak
The first person who'd tell you that what Sisko did was just as wrong as what Ross did would be Sisko himself. Here's the thing, though - he'd be wrong. As bad as assassinating an ally to embroil their government in your war is, at least, at LEAST, there's a clear line from cause to effect there. With Ross? POSSIBLY Kreetak will turn on us. AFTER the war. MAYBE. Sisko's actions were borne out of cold pragmatism, but Ross? Nothing but fear.
Good point.
condemning Ross shows a rather naïve worldview . . . just look around . . .
I also don't like Ross siding with the Romulans against Bajor in the season 7 opener. Yes, this is a Federation decision, not a personal action, and yes it's very pragmatic (Romulan support more valuable against the Dominion), but it's such an egregious act of entitled colonial thinking... eurgh!
In "Star Trek IV", when Kirk was demoted back to captain, he didn't even see that as a punishment since he never wanted to be an admiral in the first place!
It really does make you wonder why he accepted the role in the first place. Or why he didn’t just step down voluntarily once he realized it didn’t suit him. I can’t imagine Starfleet would force Kirk to stay an admiral if he didn’t want it.
Frankly, I doubt _Starfleet_ saw it as a punishment either. It was most likely their way of rewarding him for saving Earth while making it look like they were punishing him to pacify the Klingons.
That's why there's kind of a "sweet, I get command of my own ship again" look in Kirk's eyes when he gets demoted from admiral to captain
@@KentuckyKaiju The TMP novelisation (which was written by Gene Roddenberry himself) shows that Kirk was manipulated into accepting flag rank by Nogura. Of course this isn't strictly canon as it didn't appear on screen, even if it did come from Roddenberry, but it always made sense to me. A younger (40ish) Kirk was pushed into flag rank by a manipulative Starfleet commander but later came to resent it by the time he was pushing 50.
For me the one that hurt the most was Bill Ross. Up until that episode he was the perfect example of an Admiral that was tough but always fair and I think he was absolutely right that Jadzia Dax was qualified to lead missions as the Defiants commander.
Side note I think there should be a list of Starfleet science medical, and specialist officers who would make excellent Captains.
Jadzia Dax
Beverly Crusher
D'vana Tendi
Spock
Deanna Troi
Christine Chapel
Hoshi Sato
Miles O'Brien
The Doctor
Carol Marcus (ST II)
Hope everyone is having an excellent weekend 🖖
Spock *was* a Captain...
@@PetersonZF True, I forgot about that , but we never actually got to see him in command of a ship.
Come to think of it, Sarek should have recruited a Vulcan ship to infiltrate Genesis and retrieve Spock's body. I'm sure a Vulcan admiral would have understood the urgency.
I'm not so sure about that - Sarek himself admits his logic is compromised because of his sons "death"
"What you seek has not been done since ages past, and then only in legend. Your request is not logical."
"Forgive me, T'Lar. My logic is uncertain where my son is concerned."
I don't think it's too farfetched other vulcans would come to the same conclusion as T'Lar
@@momokochama1844 To be fair, there proved to be both a living body and the mind of the body within another man. Leaving them separate was illogical, since that would guarantee the issue was never resolved. It's better to try and fail than not try at all. You at least gain the experience from the attempt.
@@silversonic1 True, but they didn't know there was a living body until they went.
@@PetersonZF There is a question, why did they go? Bones was the only hint that they needed to go back, as he was arrested trying to secure travel there.
But my earlier comment was more to the point of Sarek's request at the end of the movie. All of the illogical things have happened. But the request itself made sense because the illogical choices actually made that request possible.
@@momokochama1844 although that's flawed logic since it's really logical that a parent would seek to do everything that they could to help their son, even if it meant doing what others considered illogical.
Great vid! Though I think you forgot about Admiral Janeway from Star Trek: Voyager's End Game finale. If you are going to make Admiral Kirk #2 on this list, then Janeway easily tops Kirk as she basically did the same thing as Kirk -- save her crew -- but on a dramatically larger scale. Janeway committed treason in her timeline in an effort to violate the temporal prime directive -- and succeeded! Janeway outright rewrote history to bring Voyager home, and the butterfly effects that came with that have never been explored to my knowledge, at least on screen. People completely written out of existence, etc; I love Star Trek: Voyager, and I love Captain Janeway, but, in the context of this video, using your own criteria for Kirk and omitting Janeway feels like an oversight. What Kirk did is small fries compared to how Janeway went about her mission.
I agree. Image somone going back in time and changes 20+ years of history.
I've always wondered why future Star Fleet didn't go back in time to prevent her from doing that, as like you said, it directly breaks the Temporal Prime Directive.
Absolutely agree. Even though during the episode people hope she succeeds , just like they hoped Harry succeeded in "Timeless." Nonetheless this is a blatant disregard of the temporal prime directive. Janeway should be on this list.
Janeway's decisions are questionable no matter the rank 😂
I like how, when Pressman decided to create a Federation cloaking device, he also made an improvement to the technology, rather than just purely trying to catch up to the Romulans level of cloaking technology.
True. The Romulans actually did experiment with a phasing cloak, resulting in the "deaths" of LaForge and Ro (they got better). So the Federation phased cloaking device was made before even the Romulan version.
They should have kept the phasing tech and remove the cloaking aspect of it. Then the treaty would have been honored that way.
@@origami83 But phasing was what caused the cloaking.
It would have been legal if it was just phaseic energy. Then it's like not a cloak but fire all you want it will just pass right through us
Interesting seeing you here HCBailly. I'm a big trekkie too! more so now due to Star Wars being effectively a dead franchise to me. So I like watching these discussions a lot more than I do star wars stuff.
I still think that Admiral Lester Buenamigo is the worse admiral in Starfleet history. He created a class of ship that killed untold number of people, purposely set up a mission designed to fail, erased the memories of the original project head, and knew of a Breen incursion, but told no one just to prove a point.
and fully admitted it was because he wanted a legacy. He didn't even TRY to hide the fact that he was a prolapsed flaming butthole. I mean, at least he owned it?
He also literally ordered said ship to murder the entire crew of the Cerritos
It just occurred to me that Kirk's advice to Picard is effectively the entire premise of the show Picard.
I know someone is just handing you a script but THANK YOU for these videos, Mr. Ferrick! I love Star Trek so much and this is like having a new show to watch/listen to a few times a week.
Great points about Admiral Kirk-he was the poster boy of the “Peter Principle”
As I said previously, he shouldn't be the second worst, but he belongs on this list the reason you stated. Great Captain, horrible Admiral.
Technically, the "Commodore" Rank would've suited him better. Kinda like a Flag captain or Super captain... who can also be called on to command a fleet in case of an all out strike.
This would also grant him the ship he wanted (the Enterprise). You stay in the chair, which is all he really wanted in retrospect.
However stealing the ship out of space dock? Commodore or not, this was a no-no.
I keep hoping in a startrek series, instead of a captain, we'd get a commodore... especially since most where pretty twisted in ST, and usually war dogs.
The episode with Norah Satie, while a bit heavy-handed, still did a good job exploring the mechanism of a "witch hunt". Probably they meant to reference the McCarthy "Un-American Activities" hearings. It's good to remember that logic does not always equal the truth.
Even Spock told Kirk that it was a mistake for him to become an admiral. "Commanding a Starship is your first, best destiny. Anything else is a waste of material." - Star Trek II - The Wrath of Khan
"Best destiny" is actually what he says.
@@MadnessHEROReverendyou're right. That's what happens when I'm trying to go to fast. Thanks 🖖
@@MadnessHEROReverend I'll edit it now. Thanks again.
@@robertszekely8686 no problem glad to help. only reason I remember it as well as I do is because it's the title of one of my favorite books that goes into Captain Kirk's backstory, plus fills in some of the gap between final frontier and the christening of the Enterprise B we see in Generations.
@@MadnessHEROReverend Thanks again. Maybe I'll read book.
Sean I just love your analysis and explanations.
Excellent video Sean! I fully agree with you about Kirk (as well as several other admirals). The qualities that make a good admiral are not necessarily the qualities that make a good captain. But Star Fleet seems to work on the same kind of hierarchy and promotion path that every modern military I know of has. Somewhat simplified it's ensign, lieutenant, commander, captain, and admiral. The qualities that make a good captain -- the ability to be flexible, adjust to changing circumstances, taking responsibility for your own actions -- are not those that work for an admiral who has to take account of the big picture and oversee the implementation of Federation policies adopted by civilian government. You didn't include Admiral Nechayev on your list, even though many Trekkers find her annoying. Yet she was the admiral implementing Federation policy regarding the Maquis, even though it made her look bad.
She's one of the few Admirals on TNG who actually has dimension to her character. She sometimes even agonizes over the orders she has to give Picard.
Necheyev implemented the policy in the DMZ even though she disagreed with it - you see that in the TNG episode with the native Americans when Picard says that it is wrong and she agrees with him and says she actually tried to get the Federation Council to realise the error, that they were giving the Cardassians too much but was ignored - because it was her duty.
I think a dishonorable mention should go to the skeeviest admiral, J.P. Hanson, who made the ignoble comments to Picard about Cmdr Shelby "Keep your eye on her, Jean-Luc, she's a very impressive young lady" and "Just an old man's fantasies."
Fun list, Sean! Bold, but understandable, to put Kirk on there. I agree Kirk is not cut out to be an admiral - commodore (if that rank was still in starfleet) maybe - but he belongs on the bridge of starship.
A commodore only commands a few ships. In world war 2 the Battle of the River Plate was led by a Commodore who then got promoted to Rear Admiral. Just Star Trek makes things simple by calling them all Admirals since there are different ranks of Admiral that people may not be aware of.
Props to Brock Peters for portraying Cartwright so well and then turning around and playing Joseph Sisko. He really played the roles of the villain and good guy equally fantastically.
What I like about this list is these Admirals were not just “villains of the week.” Every actor or actress playing these characters really had to work hard and dig deep. Jean Simmons (Admiral Satie) gave my personal favourite acting performance on the list, but they were all terrific. Any bets on a new “Admiral story” for “Strange New Worlds?”
Did you notice how every Admiral on this list (Kelvin U notwithstanding) was from the Movie era through the TNG-Picard era? The Federation leadership in TOS/TAS has been universally portrayed in a positive light. Part of that reflects Roddenberry's utopic vision, but you also see ENT's Admiral Forrest, DIS's Admiral Cornwell and SNW's Admiral April portrayed with the same leadership traits--the admiralty of the TAS era had two jobs:
- be the diplomatic paragons of Federation ideals
- run interference for and generally cover the butts of the captains under their command
With the exception of Ross, you don't see this again in Trek until Vance.
just when I got to thinking that you could've made a case for the number 2 admiral to be at number 1, the actual number 1 came along and it couldn't have been anyone else, in terms of the ramifications of their actions - thanks for the great list, @TrekCulture :)
Always found that really interesting. Roddenburry imagined a fairly utopian Federation by the time Next Generation rolled around so he banned most interpersonal conflict between the crew and claimed all humanity's ills were "cured" somehow...
But because that completely obliterated dramatic potential beyond the "alien planet/ship of the week" they introduced this weird dynamic where like 90% of admirals are the most incompetent, selfish, corrupt or evil antagonists we ever see in the show, well except maybe the Romulans...
I read something someplace years ago when fans were taking note of the Dreadnaught model on Admiral Marcus' desk, and one of the directors or producers commented that it was an error. He wasn't on set that day, and if he had been, the model wouldn't have been there.
Even though it was listed as a mistake, I think that the Admiral was so consumed by his own (warped) self importance/narcissistic ideas - - that he would have allowed that ship model to be in plain site. It seems that no one mentioned that model to him and if they had, he most likely had an pat answer ready.
They didn't prove Data sentient. That part went without a ruling. What they ruled was that Data WASN'T Starfleet's property. That, again, is where the problem lands. But I feel the Admiral was silently redeemed in the end, as he saw first hand just how much Data loved his daughter, even if Data himself couldn't register that he did.
As an aside, many of the worries the Admiral had did have merit. But he, unfortunately, thought about things more as a scientist. At no point, however, did it seem like he had gone over Data's documentation. I mean, it's Data. There's documentation.
He did go about things wrong, but seeing Data try to save her showed him that nobody could have done a better job in the attempt.
Similar to how the Doctor was recognized as an author without recognizing him a sentient being
We need a best admiral list, I don't think there will be many none the less, it will be a good video to go in-depth on their actions which made them the best admiral.
I suddenly considered the time-travelling Admiral Janeway. Although her motives were to save her crew earlier(especially Tuvok), she did stuff. She stole advanced technology, messed with the timeline, introduced the Borg to tech that won’t exist for 30 years(remember, their best trait is that they adapt and quickly) and clearly threw every rule and common sense out the window. While still a captain, she had several time travel encounters as well as cautions from the 29th century, so she of all people should know better.
Have to agree, this was one of the most selfish acts committed by an admiral. No noble cause for the Federation. At least Satie was trying to save Starfleet or believed she was. Pressman was trying to give the Federation a major strategic advantage. But Janeway just wanted to save a few friends from an action she took upon herself to why they were stranded out there in the first place.
Although to be fair when she sacrificed herself to be assimilated and infect the Borg Consciousness it's possible part of her planning included a specially prepared virus to destroy the information from the future before the Borg could permanently assimilate it. She did have some pretty detailed plans and decades of effort put into planning for it.
Not a huge fan of Star Trek 7, but I always liked that conversation between Kirk and Picard.
And Picard seems to have taken it to heart too, seeing how he is still in the captains chair during Star Trek 10 while Janeway has already (deservedly) moved up the ladder.
Hoping this is leading to a Best Admirals list! So many of the admirals we encounter are tragic figures, and it isn't even limited to Starfleet, but they do take the biscuit!
Pressman: I have a lot of friends in Starfleet.
Well, considering we never see you again, obviously not that many.
Awesome list. Have to love some evil admirals. The "there's only 1 starship available" makes little sense in other situations in some previous Trek, but much more sense in this Coup situation. The Admiral in charge of that area of space planned it out that way so there would be only one starfleet ship there at that time, and likely make it so there wouldn't be any non-starfleet capital class ships in the area at the time either.
I think my favorite "evil admiral" on this list is Satie. The actor does a wonderful job playing a character who thinks they're correct, and even convincing a main character, Worf, that she's doing the right thing, and it's so insidious, and Patrick Stewart gives a moving speech, that speaks directly to the viewers, it's a wonderful episode.
Amazing video! Ty!
Tbh, I don't blame Ross. He saw the bigger picture, something a good leader has to do, even if it doesn't look good today, the ends do sometimes justify the means. Remember, the Romulan alliance with the Federation against the Dominion was not because they agreed to set aside centuries of hostility and make peace, it was entirely one of convenience. They may very well go back to being an enemy to the Federation and that would be worse since the war will weaken them.
I believe someone tells Sisko that if he ever tried another stunt like that again, they would either promote him to punish or reward him. It seems the Captain's seat is the best seat. You have the most power, while still being in the thick of things. Some paper work, but not the huge amounts admirals would have to do at a cushy desk. And he gets to control a ship and make important decisions on the ground so to speak.
Dax said it best. It wasn't enough for him to make the decisions, he had to be the one to implement them. same as Dukat who was a Legate, but kept the Gul title because he could be closer to the front line.
Odd though, as most of Sisko's duties were bureaucratic paperwork on a fixed space station. If it wasn't for wartime, Sisko's job as commanding officer would be quite a snore compared to commanding a full blown starship.
@@oldtwinsna8347 he was on away missions even before the Dominion War, however. But you are right. He was stationary, not like Picard or Kirk or Archer on the Enterprises where they left the ship more. The other three were captains as well.
I see your list and I raise you admiral Les Buenamigo!
Also I would say Ross should be on it as well for his actions with the Romulan hospital on the Bajoran moon - he comes around at the end thanks to Major Kira
This should be called 10 worst moments Federation Admirals had or 10 worst decisions Federation Admiral made.
Brock Peterrs is a amazing actor and deserves recognition for his contribution to Star Trek.
I think the best actor playing a bad admiral was Jean Simmons.Her scenes with Picardi in the courtroom scenes were some of the best acting inn Star Trek Next Generations fourth season.
Kirk sucked as an Admiral, true, but Starfleet seems to have understood this, and did what I like to call "promote him back to Captain" where he always was the most useful. I also got the sense that at the very least by WOK, if not TPM already, he really regretted taking that promotion. Hell, by Generations he straight up tells Picard not to do it if it's offered.
Indeed, Kirk _hated_ being an admiral. He's very hands on, and is not the kind of guy who wants to be stuck behind a desk. He would rather sit in the captain's seat, and go on adventures across the galaxy.
@@Akira625 James T Kirk: “Vice Admirals don’t fly, do they?”
Commodore Paris: “No. They don’t.”
James T Kirk: “No offence Ma’am, but... where’s the fun in that?”
Spock outright tells Kirk in Wrath of Khan "If I may be so bold, it was a mistake for you to accept promotion. Commanding a starship is your first, best destiny; anything else is a waste of material."
@@donkyhotay4583 Easily my favourite line in a movie stuffed to the brim with good ones.
The one I was surprised you didn't put on is Picard during season 3 of Star Trek Picard. He effectively stole the Titan-A to search for Beverly, lied to Shaw, put the crew in danger, engaged in fire with an unidentified vessel (the Shrike), and essentially put the Federation at war with the Borg. Yes it saved the Federation but he should have done the proper thing by going through the proper channels, regardless of the changeling infiltration. That would have been better. In my opinion at least. Just my thoughts.
The problems I see with that is first, he's a retired admiral. I know that's semantics but it does affect his access and options, and next. He knew the changelings infiltrated Starfleet (or was suspicious in the beginning because of Crusher's message to him) so going through proper channels wouldn't have helped and/or would just have gotten the changelings to hinder him much earlier and more forcefully in his venture.
@@_Omega_Weapon While yes I understand that part. I know he could have chosen other avenues of reliable sources to go through and not steal a ship like we see in SNW S2E1 when Spock "steals" the Enterprise to go to Cajitar IV. The retired Admiral is, as you pointed out, semantics. It still was something he did on his own with only his view to go on and Laris which we never found out what happened to her after those events. So it wouldn't make sense to not have him on the list. Yes I understand your view and do take your points into consideration but I still think they should have included Picard on the list.
@@_Omega_Weapon Also one other thing I forgot to mention, he never knew that the changelings infiltrated Starfleet until he was already aboard the Titan-A. So, he could have very well gone through the proper channels prior to even arriving on the Titan. Hell, at the very least he could have told Shaw and Seven about the plan and been very specific about Beverly's instructions. That is just something that I believe he could have done. Besides, during his time on the Enterprise-D he was very much about following the rules and protocols. So his life as an Admiral (Retired) should have been no different than being an active Captain.
I’d love to see a “top ten out of character actions”. Things like neelix in mortal coil, sisko in in the pale moonlight. Even Picard losing his cool in first contact. It’s fun seeing the actors stretch their muscles.
And yes, I am available for the video.
I feel like all of these are more of an extension of the character in some way with only really Neelix's coming out of no where but still understandable. He lost his family and believed he would see them again but then had something come up to shake that faith. Picard did have a couple of dealings with the Borg after his trauma but add to that them taking over his ship, killing his crew and the voices of the Queen he could hear it doesn't feel too far a step. As for Sisko he had shown in the past that he would always do what he believed to be what was needed even if others would disagree
Yeah those are all absolutely valid reasons for the actions but they still are abnormal behavior for the characters. The reasoning behind it could be part of the video even.
I will definitely grant that the sisko example is not the best example.
Liked the mention of Kirk. You’ve dug deep in researching this list! Well done.
Just goes to show that “Badmiral” is becoming cliché at this point of Star Trek shows.
At first I was surprised about Necheyev not being on this list, but while she regularly screwed over our beloved Captains and Commanders, she never actively betrayed Starfleet or the Federation, and actually generally had the best interests of Starfleet in mind. She was also right more often than she was wrong, annoying as it was.
The one time she did seem to be betraying Starfleet, the Federation, and the entire Alpha Quadrant to the Dominion, it turned out she was a hologram and it was a test to fomd how determined Sisko and crew were to keep the Dominion from gaining a foothold. She'd probably make a most hated Starfleet Admirals list though....
I would say being incompetent should put admirals on the list too.
@@zt1053 I don't think she was incompetent either. She certainly was brusque, rude, and annoying, but she was also usually in the right, and doing what she did for the good of Starfleet/the Federation. (Just that she also had a tendency to follow the regulations, which is something we loved most of our Captains for NOT doing.)
@@xyz.ijk. I said "usually" in the right. That was definitely one where she was not, but the rest of the Federation was going along with it too, so everyone but Wesley was in the wrong, reluctantly or otherwise.
Sean, do you write your own scripts? Just saying, I really love how much depth and insight (and frequent silliness 😜) you put into your pieces. Both entertaining and thought-provoking... with a dash of good feels on the side. 😻👍
We may need a worst commodores list sometime.
Commodore Stocker, "The Deadly Years" would have to be on the list.
Commodore Decker, "The Doomsday Machine," too.
Maybe Commodore Travers, "Arena," thrown in since he was KIA. Sad since Commodore Travers was known for his "hospitality," according to McCoy.
Though there aren’t a lot of people who held the commodore rank in Star Trek.
@@Akira625 More than I would have thought.
Memory Alpha lists approximately 20 commodores throughout Trek.
Agree!!
Excellent. Excellent video. Do more like this one if you can. Nicely done!
What do you think about admiral Nechayev? I'm not sure she was exactly "bad," but she put Captain Picard in uncomfortable positions more than once. Usually enforcing bad policy along the cardassian border concerning the Maquis
Not least the fact she took the Enterprise away from Picard and give it to Jelico
She's a bit of a B in the novels as well. Including one incident I remember that brought her at odds with Jellico (Who was the head of Starfleet by then) in the Destiny series.
Would be difficult, being a hardass doesn't make you a bad admiral. It makes you someone who knows your job is not to make friends, but to get results.
The only thing she did that could get her on a "worst admirals" list wasn't even done by her, but rather a Dominion Holodeck program.
She was one of the best. Flat out put Picard into his place that he serves the best interests of the Federation and its citizens and so he needed to do away with his personal discomfort in making decisions.
@@oldtwinsna8347 one of the best? lol good joke. There's a reason the Dominion used her for their simulation with Sisko and the others.
Admiral Satie may have been an awful person, but such a great character.
Do one of the best admirals. Cornwell would need to rank on that list in my opinion. And Kirk hated being an admiral.
Also Admiral Vance. Easily the most reasonable Admiral we’ve seen yet. Even when he creates a roadblock, it’s for entirely understandable reasons and he actually bothers to listen to those under them instead of being an autocrat.
Another great vid. Just watched the movies 2-6 as it happens, wonderful memories watching as a kid in the 80’s/early 90’s and nice to reminisce.
The needs of the many... Fine. But the "one" who got the short end was Spock himself. And that makes all the difference in the universe.
I would say Admiral Janeway for a similar read as Admiral Kirk. Kirk had his 5 year mission; historic in the annals of the Federation, but Star Fleet was always a call away (If budget wasn’t an issue). Janeway had Jack and… well Forensign Kim.
Idea for a topic I don’t think I’ve seen.
Facts about the Prometheus Class attack vessels. As Voyager goes on; we learn about Dr. Zimmerman’s not such good luck making the perfect permanent medical hologram but that vessel in addition to its holo emitters being in Jeffries tubes of all places it had the unique but extremely effective multi vector attack mode; not seen in Picard. That seems like a saucer separation++. I thought that class ship was so cool!… only to find the PADD in the waste bin.
Hats off for not taking the easy route of including Necheyev in here just because she was annoying. Her smug face and dismissive tone was akin to Kai Wynn and she was seriously displeasing, but she was not evil or actually bad. She was simply the embodiment of bureaucracy.
Exactly.. Necheyev was a career Starfleet officer.. One that got the job done and could make the hard decisions when called upon.. Still she did have her light moments and was willing to show that she was in fact human. That scene when Picard made sure to have her favorite food on hand Bulgarian Canapes... The next time the two would meet she chided him about that when he didn't serve them but added. "They are too fattening anyways." The only thing that I didn't like that she did was transferring command of the Enterprise D to Jellico with next to no warning to either Picard or the ship's crew... The only good thing to come out of that whole situation was the fact that Jellico ordered Troi to wear a standard uniform while on duty...
About Admiral Jameson, it's in a way that plays out in the episode "A private little war"
I'd love to see a list of "best Admirals" as well. I think Nacheyev deserves more love than she gets!
Necheyev is a victim of being a very bad people person. She was almost always right to some extent and had a good grasp of the bigger picture, but seemed to have zero conception of the human cost of her decisions, often leaving those as Somebody Else’s Problem. This no doubt made her a great high level strategist, but a godawful leader.
Definitely not a Badmiral, but certainly not someone I’d ever want to work for. Necheyev is the very personification of out-of-touch Upper Management.
Admiral Forrest would probably be on the list.
@@KentuckyKaiju That shit is probably why the Dominion used her in their scenario to see how Sisko and the others would act if they tried to claim peace. She's definitely one admiral that would actually believe their bullshit.
@@Zhortac Not sure she would. As stated above, she's a shit boss to work for but she's certainly no idiot.
I know you said something about this during the U&D for the episode, but Buenamigo definitely belonged somewhere on this list.
Bit surprised that Admiral Janeway from Endgame isn't on the list she in effect wipes billions of people from existence by changing the timeline because she didn't like the fact that she didn't get Seven of Nine back to the Alpha Quadrant.
Because she technically no longer exists except maybe as an echo within the Borg Hivemind.
I would add Admiral Buenamigo from "Lower Decks".
Same.
Another nominee for the list might be Admiral Nechayev (played by Natalija Nogulich). In both TNG and DS9, she appears to act (other than some smugness in her decisions) without much regard to her emotions (which might be good), but she also seems to have understanding of anyone else's emotions or priorities (such as the Maquis and the inhabitants of the border area in general). You can see Sisko trying to control himself around her (when he really wants to yell "You're an idiot"!) and he only later explodes in front of Kira.
You have a very good point with regards to putting Admiral Nechayev to this list. Let us not also forget that she on one occasion she wanted Picard to relocate some Native American Indians from a planet, because it was being handed over to the Cardassians as part of a change of a treaty of that planet. One person who knew that this order was wrong is Wesley Crusher.
@@davidhabert but technically it wasn't her decision , it came from higher up (unless that was just an excuse)
@@john.premose that's true. But it's odd how an ensign could see that this is wrong and the rest of the Federation couldn't.
Maybe the ensign should be promoted to the admiral's position.
She was a pain in the ass but not a badmiral
@@QuestingTruck Are you the real one or the other guy?
I feel the need to comment on "the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few." Spock was explicitly talking in terms of personal sacrifice and not objective sacrifice. Actions taking on the behalf of *oneself* for the group rather then justification for the exploitation of "the few." The exploitation of the few for the many is the philosophy of the Borg, "We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile." How is that anything less the the needs of the many (the Collective) taking place before the needs of the few (everyone else.)
I didn't realize that was Brock Peters in "To Kill a Mockingbird". I often quote this as one of my favorite books.
One thing that is scary in the Star Trek universe is how secretive the ranks are. Captains know certain things that they aren’t allowed to talk about like omega and have very specific orders about. What crazy stuff are Admirals not able to talk about and how does that affect their view of the universe.
This is the case in every "ranked" structure in human society and is not unique to Starfleet. "Heavy is the head that wears the crown." As a security officer in a busy mall, I'm aware of things happening around it that would shock the people visiting, and my supervisors are aware of things that they keep from me for similar reasons. In a family, the kids might be oblivious to their parents financial struggles, who are in turn unaware of medical problems the grandparents are dealing with. We compartmentalise information all the time, just what controls the 'need to know' varies.
That is pretty commonly shown in fiction though you often hear about someone saying in one way or another this is on a need to know basis and you don't need to know
MAN!
The job of an admiral is sometimes literally some crazy stuff!
You could have included several of the commodores from the original series. They were essentially admirals until the Navy retitled them
Which I found odd that Starfleet Security commander Oh was a Commodore instead of RMDL...
Great video thank you please keep up your amazing work and the long and prosper🖖🏻
I'm glad you didn't mention that admiral from discovery. Not for any of the reasons you mentioned but because it makes it feel like discovery doesn't exist when you don't talk about it
I knew Kirk would be on this list because of his speech in Generations and the way his sentence was handed down in IV. He never wanted to be a paper-pusher. He was a man of action, and flying a desk discomfited him so much that he did everything he could to get back into the captain's chair.
BS top spot goes to Admiral Janeway. As an admiral, she lied, stole a ship, stole classified experimental technology, violated the temporal prime directive by going back in time and contacting herself, then used said technology to commit a blatant act of GENOCIDE by wiping out the Borg race. The fact that the starfleet sections in future responsible for keeping the timeline pure (and repairing Janeways damage to it) did NOT take actions to prevent the Borg genocide by a time traveling Janeway from another continuity speaks volumes about the morality of Starfleet in the future
@SciFiDude79 It did happen because the corpse of Admiral Janeway was still in the new timeline. Like when captain whatshisnutz got trapped in 2oth century Los Angeles they dudes monitoring the timelines had to retrieve his butt and reintegrate him with the other hims. So same rules apply, that the alternate time lines did happen are still physically extant at some level.
Genocide is normally unconscionable of course, but it could be argued that there are no 'innocents' among the Borg because they are all part of the same collective mind. Just as killing in self-defence isn't murder, maybe wiping out the Borg is justified if it's the only way to stop them doing the same to you.
Admiral Kirk was the best ever!! It's insane to add him to this list!!! I call fowl!
Solid list, putting Kirk so high up was bold and accurate.
Admiral Clancy is a legend! Picard basically quit years ago in a fit of pique, then swans back in all like "years, gimme a ship, but, just a captain"....
pique*
@@antney7745 oops, sorry! Thanks! :)
Host: What is on the application for these admirals?
Me: Are you evil? Yes, great you got the job.
Nope, not gonna go down 'that' rabbit hole again. Recently you had some marvelous lists of Star Trek Ensigns, and I ended up wondering how many Ensign's had there been in Star Trek. Answer was, over 300, that I found. (Not including books.) So I thought, well... there certainly aren't as many Admirals... but nope not going to try that again. That said, how 'bout a list of the best Admirals?
As always thank you so very much for the video.
If Dougherty isn’t number 1 we riot!
Bring your pitchfork and torch then Jimmy!! 🤣
@@idontwannaidontwanna7307 Who has the tar and who has the feathers? No not a kink thing, for the riot guys.
Jean-Luc HAS shown hubris, actually: In Q Who? he arrogantly turned down Q’s offer to guide the Enterprise D through space- an act that brought the NCC 1701 D to meeting and confronting the Borg- and where Picard practically begged Q to get his crew out of there ASAP when things went south. Way south in this case.
Even Picard's nephew knows that Jean Luc is an arrogant son of a b...
I love Admiral Ross. He was the Sisko of Admirals, you know he has his own Pale Moonlight.
The first thing I thought when I saw this was "Admiral Haftal better not be on this list".. I have to say I am disappointed. He redeemed himself beautifully and was an incredible character.
He is explaining this underlining this point.
With regards to Kirk and his brief time in the Admirality that was a result of the fact most of the creative team were ex Navy and in their time in the Navy senior Captains were given the option of "moving up or moving out" creating a shedload of crap Admirals who just wanted to get a boat back.
Commodore is a rank between Captain and Admiral. As Starfleet is a mix between American and British Naval Ranks from the late 19th and early 20th Century.
I think Admiral Buenamigo pissing off every Captain of the California class and messing with Ensign Rutherford's memories deserves a mention.
He didn’t just do that he ordered the destruction of the Cerritos and the murder of her crew
One thing about Cartwright. He was in start trek 4 at starfleet headquarters during the probe attack. Just shows how much a person changes when they "go wrong"
In defense of James T. Kirk, I believe that he would have had a brilliant career as a Starfleet admiral, had he been promoted to flag rank in wartime. Unfortunately, his ability to grok his enemies was of little use in a Starfleet at peace.
My father was a Colonel in the US Air Force as Air Police and attached to the Defense Atomic Support Agency back in the 1960's and he always said that sometimes he and higher ups had to do bad things to protect our country.
Sean, I think you ranked Kirk too high on that list, but I actually agree he should be on this list. Kirk's actions were not evil, but there were unethical in that he put his interests and the interests of Spock (and maybe Vulcan) ahead of the needs of the Federation. Kirk was a great Captain, but he had no business being an Admiral.
Kirk never wanted to be an Admiral
@@MGower4465 kirk made a mistake accepting to be an admiral. Its why his punishment for his actions is to be "demoted" to captain. The federation now knows where this man truly belongs. On the bridge of the enterprise.
Loved the list..especially the inclusion of the last with his awesome performance of Cartwright..that should have gotten him vast accolades..instead..it seems swept away. I feel hurt as anyone at least a speck of empathy should.