The Prime Suggestion: Don’t interfere with other cultures unless it’s really inconvenient not to or it’s necessary to advance the plot of the story. Or unless you’re James T. Kirk and you really really want to.
There's a mistake in this video. It wasn't Miramanee's people in "A Private Little War." It was Nona and Tyree's people Kirk armed. Miramanee's people were the Amerindian people on the planet with the asteroid-repelling obelisk.
@@Shan_Dalamani I think that’s the only episode of TOS that I haven’t seen all the way through. I saw part of it recently but I was called away from it for some reason. I guess that gives me something to look forward to.
“When has justice ever been as simple as a rulebook?” -William “The Maneuver” Riker I learned more ethical lessons from Star Trek than years of school.
I also like what Picard said right before that line. If I remember correctly it was something like, ‘There can be no justice as long as laws are absolute.”
One of my favorite Picard moments: Picard has to negotiate with the Sheliaks when they find a human population on one of their planets, and Picard uses their own treaty with the Federation against them in order to evacuate them in time.
For the uniform is talked about a lot in regards to Sisko, but I rarely see anyone mention, likely because it's one line mentioned in the closing, what Sisko actually did was make the planet uninhabitable by HUMANS for 50 years, in the closing, he says that the Cardassians who were displaced by the Maquis biogenic weapons will move there and the humans will move to the planet abandoned by the Cardassians. So at first glance, it seems like he's really gone off the rails, but it wasn't as extreme as it initially seemed.
Yes, but there are 2 things you are not taking into account: 1. Trilithium resin is HIGHLY toxic to humans. Anyone especially young, old, or sick may very well have died before they could evacuate. They did NOT even begin to evacuate until after Sisko shot the Trilithium resin into the atmosphere, because they didn't seriously think he'd do it. 2. That was a COLONY he poisoned. Likely thousands or even tens of thousands strong. Not everyone was a Maquis soldier or raider. Most would have been sympathizers, but guilty of no other crime. Innocents, basically. Taking that into account, it is more than likely at least SOME innocent sympathizers DIED from what Sisko did. And he got no court-martial, no criminal charges, it's not even mentioned again. Some interpret this to mean no one died. I believe that to be extremely unlikely. Even if no one actually died, thousands COULD HAVE died, as a direct result of Sisko's actions. That is not in keeping with Starfleet regulations OR Federation ideals. Remember how shocked all his officers were when he gave the order, even Worf the Klingon, even Kira the former terrorist. Keep in mind they all live in the 24th century, and NOT today. They are supposed to be more rational and evolved than we are. They are held to higher standards, ESPECIALLY Starfleet Officers. Sisko should have been thrown out of Starfleet and brought up on charges. The Dominion war, and his prominent part in it, is the only reason he wasn't. That's like comparing a pardon to an acquittal. One means you are innocent, the other does NOT. If he did not "join the Prophets" during the series finale, I think he CERTAINLY would have suffered SOME kind of legal consequences once the war was over. They may have been reduced due to his part in the war, but he would have suffered SOMETHING, even if it was no future promotions beyond captain. More likely, he would have been reduced in rank back down to commander and the Defiant would no longer be his to command. Someone else would have been brought in to command her (if anyone was available), while he remained in control of DS9. The Bajorans would demand no less. None of that means he is as "pure as the driven snow", it means he has clout and favors to call in so that he does not suffer the consequences of his actions. Like the way politicians and rich people almost always get off scot-free no matter what they do. That is what Sisko is, NOT an dyed-in-the-wool hero, but a dirty one. The one who does "what must be done", no matter how dirty it may be. I'm honestly surprised he had ANY qualms about Section 31 when he learned of them and their tactics. Think REAL HARD about what I said before responding, don't just give a knee-jerk response. Sisko can still be a hero, just not a clean one.
@@sterlingdennett But who is to say how long it would take for the toxin to defuse over the atmosphere and concentrate to a harmful level? It could be something that take hours, days, weeks or months to become a threat to human life. Also, while it may be toxic to human life, there is no evidence that it's effects can't be remedied once a person is out of that environment.
@@arbee7327 that is true, and that is why I said it was UNLIKELY no one died, not certain that no one died. Also, ATTEMPTED mass poisoning is not a nothing charge.
General order 6 huh? Captain: "Time for shore leave people!" *on planet surface* Captain: "Wait, who's still on board to keep the ship from exploding?" First officer: "I thought you would?" Ship: BOOM!
the EMH on Voyager had his programming altered to allow him to activate/deactivate himself early on in the show. maybe that can explain why he doesn't deactivate when the ship is taken over.
this is maybe a rank thing.. so as ensign you are allowed to talk about stuff as LT you can drop a tricorder s comander a pahser as captian you need to get the best outcome and as admirale you can do what ever you want
Voyager was one of the more inconsistent of the series at least until Discovery/Lower Decks. It matters little though you lose by default for being a furry.
There's a town where I grew up called Stouffville (StOH-fill). As a kid watching ST I thought the klingons go to Stouffville Core and I wondered why downtown stouffville was so important to the STU.
Worf became my favorite character when I was real young because he's a Klingon and my last name sounds very similar. So lil me thought I was a Klingon warrior like Worf
That is actually really good. ^____^ It was actually one of only a very few Klingon words I ever understood (probably because it was mentioned so many times). I recognized it at least once when someone said something in Klingon and that was the one word I understood. Sort of like Russian or Greek or ancient Latin. Except that it's Klingon to me but I can pick out a very few words in it anyway. Or, as one of my friends and fellow fans in college said one time in singing class, "Sounds like we're singing in Klingon." (We were actually singing in Hebrew. "Mo'oz Tzur." For Chanukah.)
One law you forgot. Romulan ale is illegal, yet it's almost at every Starfleet party, there was a bottle in ten-forward, Captain kirk had a bottle as a birthday gift, and it was at the dinner between The Federation and the Klingon Chancellor. If it's illegal why is it you so openly so much.
@@LanMandragon1720 No, it was illegal for a number of different reasons. It was made legal because a few religions use it, it would be against the freedom religion to arrest someone for there religious belief. Plus it medical use despite the side effects. It was enforced when it was illegal. Romulan Ale has no connection to religion or medicine. And it's not enforced. Starfleet is quick to say it' illegal yet they served at diplomatic parties. Sidenote: contrary to public belief, pot has very bad effects on my tribe and Aborigines of Australia. It makes us extremely irritated and violent.
@@leaaronsanchez What? I'm it taking about Pot legality. I'm saying even when it was banned it wasn't here to gett at all. Hell methamphetamine is illegal right and for good reasons. Yet if I really wanted to try some I could within a day. Romulan ale in the UFP is something like that. The state can ban whatever they want to. People are still going to get it if they want it is the point.
That has been written far far in the future, so it doesn't apply yet except from before the foundation of the Federation to what it will become. Cunfused? You won't be after this next episode of Soap.
I'd say, when other warp civilizations decide to start messing with a pre-warp civilization, the Prime Directive ought to be rescinded. Starfleet officers wouldn't be required to interfere necessarily, but they shouldn't be charged for doing so either. The main reason for the Prime Directive, after all, is to prevent more advanced cultures from messing with the natural development of less advanced civilizations, but if another advanced culture is messing with them already, the concern is moot. Regardless, the Prime Directive really ought to be more of a guideline than a strict rule. There are times when it would be just senseless. Like, if a world killer asteroid was en-route to a pre-industrial civilization. Exactly how is the civilization going to 'grow and adapt' to meet a 'challenge' in their developing culture when it's something they completely can't avoid, is just pure bad luck and not self-inflicted, and they have no chance of overcoming because it's just that destructive? Doubly so when Starfleet can do something to help that the culture likely wouldn't notice anyway.
Fact is, and this was confrmed by interviews, that the Prime Directive was originally just that, a guideline not a law. It was made into a law during TNG, probably because they needed more drama, ölike letting a whole planets population die, because 'muh interference'
In the event of an incoming asteroid, just blast it, no violation of the directive, you aren't changing anything on-planet. Volcano or such is harder, but potentially doable. The point is to avoid cultural contamination, or introduction of advanced tech. If you can save the day without doing either of those, go for it.
I agree with you in theory, but I find I have a problem with your argument. It is because of the dinosaurs and the asteroid that killed them. If an advanced civilization happened to be near earth during that time and decided to stop the asteroid, the earth would be very different today. I doubt humans would exist as a species. I don't think I am okay with that. What gave those aliens the right to make that decision. I (mostly) like existing. Species live and die, civilizations rise and fall, suns go nova, and eventually the universe will die from entropy. That is the way of things, and to interfere is to have profound consequences that one person could never fully comprehend. As for the first point, once a civilization is contaminated by another race that doesn't follow the Prime Directive, I totally agree. The objective then should be to mitigate the damage as much as possible. Having Starfleet unable to "interfere" ensures that contamination will only get worse and that the planet will soon be controlled by the enemy.
@@colyn4109 you have a fair point, except for one thing. We currently have no evidence that the dinosaurs had any kind of technology whatsoever. Stopping the asteroid that impacted the yucatan peninsula may not have saved the planet from mass extinction anyway, but it would certainly have altered the natural development of the world. The issue at hand here is the existence of a technological society at the time of the incident. Not stopping the asteroid because some other species *might* develop technological capability millions of years later still sacrifices the existing technological society that is already there, and it would set a precedent that would lead to decision paralysis in your starship captains, because no one can know what might or might not change the development of a world on a timescale that long.
@@colyn4109 That Dinosaur argument doesn't apply though. The dinosaurs weren't people, but animals. Even the most intelligent of them are thought to be dumber than the average bird of today. There is a big difference between saving a society of people, compared to saving the current reigning non-intelligent life forms. Besides, we generally don't know what the future holds. Acting based on known information and reasonable supposition is preferable to making wild guesses about possible outcomes. For example; you see someone about to die, and you can save them at little to no cost to yourself. Do you save them? Most people would say 'yes'. Suppose they end up a genocidal maniac. Is that long term result your fault? Debatable, but you couldn't have known. All you knew at the time was an intelligent being was about to die needlessly and acted to stop that from happening. If we're going to play the long shot 'what if?' game, for all we know, if the dinosaurs had been allowed to continue on, one species or other could have eventually evolved into a prosperous peaceful race of intergalactic explorers, and I think that such a hypothetical loss would be a shame too.
The idea behind the Prime Directive was more or less coalescing back in Archer’s time, but not consistently applied. Phlox wanted to not interfere with the dying out of one of the two species on one planet in ENT’s “Civilization” and yet, after the Xindi attack on Earth, Archer agrees with Trip when he reminds him that they need to do what’s necessary to neutralize the threat: “….And none of that non-interference stuff T’Pol’s always going on about”
None of these are laws, they're fleet operating policies and regulations. Culturally, starship captains seem to have pretty wide latitude to disregard regulations in the field as they see fit.
Ship's Captains have been typically treated as "The Rulers Of Their Kingdoms", with their ships being their independent little kingdoms. They command their ship. Navies tended to do this less, and withmore regulation on the Captains, as the NAVY owned the ship, instead of how it was previously where The Captain was often the ship's owner. When you had civilian companies that owned ships, the Captains were also often regulated to be in control of their respectie ships, but only up to the point of "you don't own this ship bucko, the company does." So Ship Captains are often given carte blanche to do as they please with their own property, so long as it does not violate actual laws, to do with as needed with the Company's or the Navy's ship, so long as it does not violate laws or regulations. Remember also though, that NAVAL REGULATIONS... are LAWS... NOT just rules or guidelines. For example, take the US Army's Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) [I was Army, so I'm using what I know.] The UCMJ is a code of LAWS, written for and under the jurisdiction of the US Army's internal court justice system. Yes, the each branch of the US Military has it's own internal laws and justice system, all of which fall under the Department of Defense's internal justice system, which falls under the Federal Government's overall justice system. It is not wholly separate from any Local, County, or State justice systems, they simply run in separate jurisdictions. If a Soldier violates a local law for example, they can be tried in BOTH the Military Courts Martial system, AND in the Local system. They cannot be Double Jeopardied, but they can stand in a Court Martial to receive Military punishment for charges levied against them, like to boot them from the Military for example, so they can then stand trial as a discharged civilian in the Local system, for the charges of their actual crime they committed. Two different punishments for the same ACTION(S) that led to their overall crime, from two different legal authorities, but there is no double jeopardy because the Military would not be prosecuting them for the main crime for example, but for the regulation violations the committing of that crime caused... like "Conduct Unbecoming of a Commissioned Officer of the United States (insert service branch here)". So, for example, if an officer murdered some other Sailor in the Navy, the Navy might prosecute the Officer and deal with the crime in its entirety, as the jurisdiction is internal. However, if the victim was a civilian, then the Navy would most often prosecute the Officer by Dishonorably Discharging the Officer due to conduct unbecoming and a host of other regulation violationa, then send them to the civilian authorities, where they would be prosecuted for the actual murder and whatever other civilan charges would be levied against the then previous officer turned disgraced civilian. Lastly, if the Officer killed another Sailor, then they would most likely be sent to Leavenworth Federal Penetentiary. Leavenworth is the US Military prison for its nastiest internal criminals, where those who have committed crimes within the jurisdiction of The US Military's justice system (the UCMJ for example), go to serve their imprisonment sentences. It does have a death row and inmates stillmake big rocks small as I understand it. However, if said imaginary officer killed a civilian; thus making the crime of civilian justice sysem jurisdiction; then they would serve out their sentencing in a CIVILIAN prison system, and would be given whatever punishment the civilian courts give them, as the Military washes their collective hands of any association with the given dirtbag piece of garbage then former officer. The Military will ALWAYS take first whack at prosecution and sentencing however, iver the civilian courts, as they want to get rid of the trash from their ranks FIRST, before sending their garbage to said civilian courts to be thrown into the appropriate proverbial landfill or incinerator. :-)
@@RetroDotTube I always thought that Starfleet was almost certainly *less* stiff/strict than the actual military in some ways. But yes, I would probably find *both* too stiff/strict for my liking if I tried to be actually *in* them. Actual conversation a few years ago between me and a young man I used to know who had been in the Marines for one year (age eighteen to nineteen). Me: Why on earth were you in the military if you don't like being told what to do? Him: That aspect of it had not occurred to me at that time. Good answer, actually, but it reminds me of how I think that probably most civilians and especially most civilians in their late teens or younger...have actually *even less* idea than I do of how the military usually behaves. From telling you what time to get up and which month of which year you can go home, to other things much *more* strict than that, the military is actually *all about* telling people what to do. In all sorts of different ways. Starfleet is basically a science fiction/science fantasy version of the actual American and British and possibly other military systems. That's *why* it's the way it is. Including a lot of fun things, useful things *and* potentially too strict things. Starfleet was one of the reasons why I learned early to think about things like how disobeying a direct order from your commanding officer can get you into very bad trouble even if you did it to save many lives, but actually some of the Starfleet captains (Picard for one) did *not* generally punish for that if they believed that the officer had a really important real reason (like saving lives for instance). Picard went pretty easy on people compared to what *could* have happened.
@@KittyStarlight this is a wonderful answer, I think though that most of the strict feelings I’m getting are coming from the influence of the Vulcans. The prime directive for example, lots of great things in it but some of it makes no sense whatsoever. The temporal prime directive is the same way.
I remember when Ro Laren was introduced she wasn't allowed her earing because it wasn't part of the dress code. But Worf could wear his Klingon sash. I never understood why and was kind of ticked about it. Like Captain Barbossa says in Pirates of the Caribbean, "They're more like guidelines than rules." I feel like the Prime Directive is quite problematic in so many circumstances
My guess, and it is only a guess, is there is some sort of good standing regulation. So Worf earned the right to wear it - Ro was a disgraced officer. I think that kind of thing happens in any work place.
Perhaps there's an official process for requesting uniform exceptions? Worf applied and was granted his exception. Ro wore the earring without ever requesting permission.
@@danielyeshe yet Troi got away with that mini-skirt uniform until she was ordered to change to regulation uniform by some admiral or other (forget the episode, probably "The Neutral Zone" or "Best of Both Worlds").
@@andrewmurray1550 Neither. It's the one where Captain Queeg replaces Picard while he is off being tortured by the Cardassians (I cannot be bothered looking up the episode name). IIRC it is explicitly stated that it is some sort of staff uniform and that since she is command rated she is to start wearing a standard uniform (but that was of course nonsense all the other doctors and nurses, which would be staff officers wore the standard one except that one guy we saw in the pilot).
General Order 34 _can_ be an odd one and that handling of Kurn's dishonor could've been a _lot_ smoother. The problem with it (if you ask me) was that Worf tried to put Kurn to death _on board the station._ This was what made it, for all intents and purposes, safer for him to kill _Duras._ Duras' death took place on board a _Klingon_ ship, so the disposal of his remains was then handled by _Klingons._ So it seems to me it would've been diplomatically safer if Worf and Kurn had taken a runabout to some place _not_ under Federation (or for that matter, Bajoran) jurisdiction before they carried out the ceremony that would've made Kurn's transition to Sto'vo'kor possible.
I've never been convinced that General Order 34 applied to Worf killing Duras. No dispute that Worf is genetically Klingon... but culturally? He tries to be a good Klingon, but he was raised by Humans and, arguably, is culturally Human (the number of times he acts like a Human instead of a Klingon are far too numerous to mention). On the other hand... the General Orders are (pardon, can't resist) generally ignored unless convenient.
@@rickelleman6613 I think it's a bit more complicated than that. He might have been brought up by humans but he always made sure to keep to Klingon traditions where he could. It often shows in TNG or DS9 that he was torn on what way to follow. Though the most telling moment for me was when Picard told him that as a star fleet officer worf could not help gowron win a civil war and worf choose the Klingons over the federation. There is certainly human influence but he is Klingon and he identifies as such especially in difficult decisions.
you would think that such an order would have exceptions in any case. like here, we talk about religious freedom all the time, but if your beliefs involve like, killing and eating other people, thats the point we'd all be like "i say, hold on." having the rule be that you must support a culture's ways provided it doesn't contradict a few basic, universal laws, seems way more justifiable.
First, really enjoy these videos! Second, Mirimani wasn't in "A private little war". She was in that other episode where Kirk went native and had to activate that asteroid deflector Obelisk
Right?! Great stuff! This one was especially witty. . . And I heard that little kernel and my brain went "stand by . . . Accessing . . ." Also, Vina was a passenger aboard the SS Columbia. The Valiant was destroyed attempting to breach the Galactic Barrier
Exactly, I knew he was going to mess this list up... It was Kirks best friend Tyree, who he helped armed with Flint Locks, serpents other wise known as Muskets. Tyrees wife was known as a Magootu woman, a Witch Doctor.
I'm recalling from memory here, but maybe the problem with Worf's actions was that he disobeyed a precise order and jeopardized a mission. The fact that he was in one along with his companion is secondary. The consequences he had to face would still have been the same if he did what he did with - say - a close friend or a relative, not necessarily a mate. True, leaving a loved one behind is tougher, but if you screw up a mission, all it matters is the scew-up, not the person that led you to stray from the plan. Could it be that way?
@@Bastion90 Which is probably why Worf eventually DOES get a command of his own, supposedly he ended up with the Enterprise E after Picard was promoted to Admiral although we never do see this on screen.
As SIsko had stated he would have done the same and regadlessly, the biggest mistake, and Sisko said he would fix it, was putting the man on the mission with his Wife. Which I will state is very boneheaded to start off with. You don't put a man in a postion to deal with emotions on top of an important mission if it isn't neccesary.
About "any means neccecarry" in context of the equinox: the mass murder wasn't nececarry, they had a working ship, and they had time, so they could have used the voyager route (searching wormholes ect) without committing murder.
To be fair though, the Nova class, unlike the the Intrepid class, is a short range science vessel. The class was only designed for cruises of weeks or months.There was no way in hell THEY could've taken 72 years to get home. Ransom also didn't have the man power Janeway did either. Equinox had a crew of 40 to Voyager's 150 plus the additional Maquis. Equinox didn't have the resources available, nor did they have the cargo space to hold said resources if they did. The Intrepid class is a long range science vessel designed for cruises lasting years. They had the means to gather resources as they ran short. Janeway had has another crucial resource Ransom didn't.... You might remember a certain gentleman named Neelix..Ransom didn't have him. These are just little details that seemed to slip Katheryn Janeway's mind as she sat across from Rudolph Ransom and delivered her sanctimonious speech.
The Nova class was also slower than the intrepid. So whilst voyagers initial journey was 72 years I think ransom mentions that the route home for the Equinox would have been over 100 years. So with that in mind you can see his reasoning for applying "anything it takes", but at the same time his application of the rule went a bit to far. I think (head canon) that that particular rule was written following the NX01s journey through the expans when archer raided another ship for its war coil. Now that was dark, but archer did leave the raided ship with enough supplise for them to get back home/to a nearby starbase. Dark yes, but not mass murder dark... That was "dear doctor" :P
the difference is between being stranded with a frigate or a heavy destroyer. Voyager is an oddity because its a big ship but not too big that it can't operate independently, while the equinox was too small to operate on its own
I think one of the “weirdest” laws in Star Trek isn’t a law that is weird because it exists, but because it apparently does NOT exist. Apparently there isn’t a law prohibiting the unauthorized holodeck simulation of an existing living person. Given what you could do in a holodeck with a hologram, why is it legal to make holodeck programs of people you know IRL?
As long as it is for private use, not sure it illegal IRL. It would be like insisting your imagination is illegal. Now is it healthy? That is a very different question. And using the image for profit, and Quark does, almost certainly illegal.
Reg Barclay does it and Quark does it, and in neither case do they get brought up on charges. I feel like if there were charges, Kira happily would have sicced Odo on him. I don't think what Reg does is or should be illegal, but since Quark plans to distribute/sell it, it should be illegal without written permission or something. I bet we're actually figuring this out right now in society, with deepfakes, etc.
Also wouldn't it be a good idea for people to know about omega particles if it's so problematic to travel? with all the particles people encounter..and just how strong is that particle the science makes no sense!
@@gorkskoal9315 don’t forget how impossible it seems to create. The Borg could only attempt it once. The planet voyager visits has a unique metal/ore and had to devote significant resources to create power from it. I somehow doubt many will be able to recreate this particle without huge expenses, only to have it blow up on them.
@@Ceece20 and also the borg wouldn't think twice about a weapon or device that uses them. Why stop at just a shield penetrating tractor been when you can keep your next simulation target from running as well?
@@Ceece20 yeah, well in best of both worlds the iconic episode with lucuts. Isn't that episode no one knew how the board travel through space because they were able to well exceed warp factor 9 and at least by federation standards that was considered dangerously fast but the board were more than able to go to warp factor 10 or even 11. So at least to me that sounds like they already can do something other than warp drive the government ridiculously fast. By the time of Voyager they'd even set up a permanent network to do exactly that which they were able to more or less go at a leisurely's pace within the network but outside of the network we're going you know ridiculous speed where go full plaid. Sounds to me like the both at least figured out how to make Omega particles and could refine the process further plus then didn't really give a s*** how fast they could go at normal light speed why bother when they can use their super duper Uber speed as well as time travel and go through their subspace network. Which you know I dig I think that's really cool.
yes but when Wesley actually did get involved in a crime (The First Duty covering up the death of his flight squadron teammate) all that happens to him is he gets his class credits/grades revoked and has to repeat that year.
Doherty regrettably made a solid point about the Ba’ku as and I quoted “The Prime Directive doesn’t apply, these people are not Indigenous to this planet” ie starfleet knew the Ba’ku had warp capability and thus were not a pre-warp civilization
"and thus were not a pre-warp civilization" They don't need to be. The Prime Directive doesn't exclusively apply to pre-warp civilizations. The Prime directive still prohibits unwelcome interference in the Baku's culture, and removing them from their planet without their knowledge certainly qualifies.
@@CorvusBelli01 but it was not their planet. The ba'ku went there specifically to exploit the youth radiation so they can screw around ad infinitum without a worry. Doherty was right, the Ba'ku had no more right to the planet than the Federation, which at the time mind you, was at war with the Dominion who were manufactuirng their soldiers.
@@realGBx64 "but it was not their planet" It was their planet; it simply wasn't their home planet. Same way every colony ever established by any spacefaring civilization in Star Trek belongs to the colonising race. "The ba'ku went there specifically to exploit the youth radiation" That's incorrect; they moved to the planet before discovering the life-extending properties of the metaphasic radiation. "the Ba'ku had no more right to the planet than the Federation" Except they were there first. By that same logic, the Federation had no more right to the colony on Cestus III than the Gorn did, and equally little right to Alpha Centauri, or Mars, or any other colony.
@@CorvusBelli01 Were they? This is a really confused point in the movie, because they say it's a Federation planet (which is why the Sona need to partner with the Federation in the first place, and why the Federation gets involved), yet the Baku don't seem to be Federation citizens. I'm not sure how that could happen, unless the Federation had already claimed that space when the planet was uninhabited and the Baku arrived afterwards -- otherwise the Federation wouldn't be able to just claim an inhabited planet without the cooperation of the race that lives there.
The conflict between the prime directive and the need to help prevent senseless loss of life is one of the most interesting parts of this series to me. I think the early episode Miri shows this well, where non-interference would have let a disease wipe out human life on the planet, but survival and basic decency forced them to develop a cure and share it with the few survivors.
I would have made a bad Starfleet captain. I would have leaned on General Order 24 to resolve most problems. I remember seeing a few TOS episodes where I felt like Kirk should have threatened a government with planetary bombardment if they didn't give up whichever officer they held for whatever stupid local law they broke.
@Melchior Magni That was how Kirk rolled. Remember the time they were all supposed to be executed because the war computers decided the Enterprise had been destroyed? Kirk's response was to briefly take over the capital, destroy their infrastructure, and force a resolution between the planets. Kirk does the right thing whenever possible. If the Prime Directive agrees with him, then that's all well and good. But ultimately, it's more of a guideline than anything else.
For many of these, it's not so much that they're "weird" but that they fell victim to lack of continuity. Thus, in one episode Kirk can say that a captain must be prepared to sacrifice his ship & crew in order to follow the PD, while another episode can say, "Well, you can break it to save your crew, if you must."
Maybe the protocol that Janeway quoted to poor young ENSIGN Harry Kim, only applies to junior officers? Riker was after all the First Officer of the ship, and likely had a fair amount more privileges than a lowly Ensign.
The warp drive prerequisite for the prime directive has always seemed a bit of an odd one. What if it's a private company/individual who discovers/conducts the flight? What if they have interstellar travel but no warp drive? e.g. Bajoran Solar Sail, Stargate?
Also, regarding Worf's inability to get a command of his own in the future. This seems to have been side-stepped, via a recent Picard novel, where Captain Picard pushes Starfleet to appoint Worf as the new Captain of the Enterprise-E, following Picard's promotion to Admiralty. So I suppose in-canon, it's now CAPTAIN Worf on the Enterprise-E.
Also regarding the sexual relations law: Wasn't there a voyager episode where Harry Kim was punished for having sex with a different species without asking the Doctors permission first? It's the one with the generation ship, I don't remember the title. Edit: It's "The Disease" and he apparently needed Janeways permission too. Imagine if that Law existed back in Kirks day...
"Oh, I need both the Doctor's *and* Captain's permission? Well, I *am* the Captain, and seeing as I have half the permission I need, we might as well round up..."
There was also a similar incident in Enterprise. Trip got pregnant from touching some alien beads after an alien woman had, somehow there was dna transfer. Archer gave him a lecture about conduct.
I guess most members of any given star trek cast broke that specific rule eventually (though be it off-screen) especially the crew of Voyager (followed closely by TOS and Enterprise) since allmost all their contacts were first contacts. You propably wouldn't need permisson for most federation species anymore (like human/vulcan or even human/klingon) since these kinds relationships have been going on for a long time at this point... Why can't I stop imagining celvin-Spock in sickbay now, the doc being like "YES you can have sex with Lt. Uhura, just like you could yesterday. You don't need clearance every single night." "Logic would indicate so, but starfleet code in fact doesn't specify."
*Starfleet and the Federation do seem to be more susceptible to the whims of Plot Convenience and Suspension of Disbelief than would otherwise be associated with any other known reality outside of the Matrix*
The omega directive was always absurd as i meant captains where maybe forced to start a war with a perhaps far more advanced race that uses omega as a peaceful and controlled power source.
The thing that always pissed me off about the prime directive is how vague it is. It makes no distinction between "rescue" and "meddling." Picard decides to let an entire sentient species die because saving them would violate the prime directive, which is just madness. Then, when Worf's brother actually saves a handfull of them, Picard is pissed off about it! How dare you display common human decency! I'll have no mercy shown to pre-warp civilizations aboard my ship. Laws are to prevent people from knowingly doing bad things. If a law prevents someone from doing a good thing, then it is by definition an immoral, unethical law. Ergo: the prime directive is a bad law.
Yet in another episode, the Enterprise is tasked with evacuating a bunch of Irishish hillbillies, who are obviously from a prewarp civilization. The prime directive, as with the other Star Trek rules, is really just a plot device, and means whatever the writers want it to for that episode. While we're on the subject, what about the rule that forbids the Federation from employing cloaking technology? What nonsense! It's always passed off as one of the conditions of some peace treaty, but really? What sort of Federation negotiator would deprive his side of one of the most potent military technologies in the galaxy, a technology used by the Federation's two most powerful adversaries to great advantage? We never get to find out what the Romulans had to give up in return, but let's hope that that it was something big.
I think the prime directive was far too intense in later series; it would literally result in many civilizations dying because Star Fleet would sit back and watch them get wiped out. Personally, if aliens where watching us, after they got the lay of the land, I'd be more than happy for them to come down, share their tech and culture with us, and protect us from disaster - sure, it would affect our culture, but the only way not to affect a culture ever is to completely isolate yourself from them forever. And even then, it would mean you indirectly affected that culture by making the galaxy seem more empty than it was. My vote for weird rules: the one in TOS that says women can't be starfleet captains - clearly a product of the time it was written, it has aged horribly!
'It might be bad for them if we prevent their extinction' The PD is not meant to protect primitive cultures, that is just the cover, it is meant to ensure Starfleet is protected and can play the three monkeys.
@SirMarshalHaig A rebuttal of sorts to the PD is found in Iain M Banks 'The Culture' series. The Culture is a vast pan human (there are multiple evolutions of human across the galaxy) which itself is a small part of the greater galaxy, and they are led by God like Minds (hyper advanced AI machines), and they actively manipulate less advanced societies to reduce overall suffering on their path to advancement. At each stage of intervention, intensive simulation is done to ensure the intervention is highly likely to have the intended results. Its largely a good series, "Matter" is a personal favourite of mine that happens to deal with this very subject - the books are largely stand alone.
There’s a novel that delves into the incident that resulted in the Omega Directive. It turns out that the ones behind the experiment were Section 31. Kirk is the one who ends up witnessing the disaster and learns of the organization’s existence. He contacts several captains he trusts and tells them what he has learned, even showing them Article 14, Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter
Yeah I enjoyed that book. Can you imagine the chaos Section 31 would have caused if it was able to prevent warp travel within the Klingon and Romulan Empires?
8:19 it should be noted the Voyager EMH was probably the first to be installed onboard a starship, so at the time the ship left dry docks, that particular Protocol wasn’t even a thing yet, and the Dominion War didn’t happened yet last time Voyager was at DS9. Plus I doubt Starfleet have the time or space to download the Doctor with updated protocols.
The only part of the prune directive that can work, as I see it, is non-interference with pre warp cultures. And even then, it can only work by actively protecting those worlds from outside interference. And in the event of an extinction level hazard, its value fails.
@@thomasjenkins5727 The Prune Directive states QUITE CLEARLY that Ten Forward is never to be out of stock of fresh prune juice whenever Worf is aboard.
Voyager was able to exceed that speed because its warp drive was designed to not pollute subspace. Presumably other ships were retrofitted to do the same, and the Enterprise E was built after the Voyager, so it should also have had safe engines. The only caveat there is that the reason for the movable nacelles on the Voyager was to enable it to not pollute subspace, and E did not have that, so maybe they figured out how to make the engines safe without moving the nacelles?
@@dankelsey2583 It was hinted later in other material that was temporary until they found a solution. Because sticking too that forever would have been stupid for the show
@@OhNoTheFace which supports the hypothesis that they figured out how to exceed warp 5 without damaging subspace without moving the nacelles by the time the E was built. Thank you.
We only know about Starfleet’s efforts to combat the problem. As Picard says in the episode, some other warp-capable civilizations might abide by it, others not so much. If only half of them care about speed limits, it wouldn’t be enough to solve the problem. I need to rewatch the episode to see where the overexposed area of space was, because if it was deep within Federation space, then all’s good. No other ships from other species who don’t care have any business speeding through there-the Feds patrolling can enforce the restrictions. But if it was outside Federation space, then it’s going to be pretty hard getting others to slow down through that area. Not to mention other areas would start to have subspace problems by the next century, not just that one area.
[nerd rage] Ahem!, you dun goof'd.....Kirk did NOT arm miramanees people, he armed Tyrees people on the planet Neural because the klingons were arming the enemies of Tyrees tribe.[/nerd rage]
And also it wasn't the Valiant that crashed on Talos IV. Valiant crossed the barrier at the edge if the galaxy in the next pilot. SS Columbia crashed on Talos IV.
In the case of #3, it wasn't the fact that Worf and Jadzia were in a romantic relationship. It was the fact that Worf allowed his personal relationship to take priority over a vital mission goal. Had he listened to Dax, the mission would have succeeded, and they would have at least been able to rescur the Dax symbiote.
I suggest reviewing the Talos IV episodes. The reason people would not know about the order is that the whole planet is supposed to be a secret. A deal was made (by Captain Pike) with the Talosians that no one would bother them any longer. As for the reason no one died for the transgressions of Spock was not "oh well we like Pike." The Talosians had previously asked Pike to stay on their planet to keep Vina company. So they are happy that he was returned to them, because they had been sad before that Vina would be alone. The Talosians asked Starfleet not to punish Spock, who would otherwise have accepted his death as the consequence of violating the order. Since the only purpose of the order was to protect the Talosians against exploitation by unscrupulous humans (as a treaty with them), it made sense to comply with this request.
@@danielland3767 True, but they at least acknowledge that they did. Personally I believe that the writers/producers have very little respect for the mountain of lore that encompasses "Star Trek" The further we get away from Gene Roddenberry's vision and the writers/producers of TNG , DS9. and Voyager the more this kind of thing will happen.
@@woden3643 what kind of thing? It took me awhile get where Discovery was going but it is what it is. I don't have all the lore memorized but I'm more then comfortable with some new things. I don't think it's moving away from Gene orginal plan, just evolving.
In regards to "Protocol 28, Subsection D". It can be argued that that protocol wasn't part of the original EMH programming before they left the Alpha Quadrant. While true, he learned of the protocol when he briefly visited the USS Prometheus (before the events of The Killing Game), it's still possible the protocol was never added. And in fact, given how frequent Voyager did get taken over by hostile aliens, the EMH Mark 1 on Voyager could've simply decided that that was an asinine thing to do (as you rightly pointed out). Now, to the matter of when Voyager was taken over by the Kazon (events that took place long before the EMH visited the Prometheus), the Doctor had the ability to turn himself off at will, using his "autonomy protocols" which were given to him by Captain Janeway. It thus stands to reason, he didn't have that ability prior to Janeway granting it to him. In fact, in the early days of Voyager's journey, the Doctor would often complain about crewmembers not shutting off his program when they "were done with him".
Or it could simply be that said protocol is for prototype vessels such as the Prometheus. That being said, assuming the Prometheus's EMH quoted protocol exactly (no reason to believe he didn't), why does the "and await rescue" part need to be in there? Let's be honest here. Nobody is rescuing an EMH.
Glad I wasn’t the only one that thought of this... I actually thought that’s what they were going to do even before the cause of the burn was revealed.. been watching repeats of voyager and when that episode came up thought.. “ah that’s it, that’s what caused the burn”..
I wish you did more video's for TrekCulture. Your calm demeanor is so much more nice to listen to than Adam's or Marcus' fast-pace, hyperactive rambling. I'm sure there's plenty of people who like them, but for me, I prefer your calm talking!
Something I have always wondered about the Prime Directive: diplomatic relations to bring a warp-capable civilization into the Federation is still “interfering in the natural development” of that species. And we know the PD applies to warp-capable civilizations when it comes to things like civil war. But influencing, enticing, etc. to join the organization is not interference? What if 48% of the civilization’s population doesn’t want to be part of the Federation? How is it not interference to negotiate with the 52% who do want to join? And what if it is more like the 10% in power negotiating with the Fed vs the 90% disenfranchised, as in our own society?
Just as a note, with the Talos IV execution thing, that document seems to list it as a Top Secret thing, so it might not be something generally known. The Omega Directive seems to be that the directive is what is classified, not the existence of Omega. Basically, with the knowledge being discouraged, it's just a limit about who can pull it to go all out in wrecking whatever group is using it. It also seems that the Romulans, Klingons, and Ferengi all have the same thing as of the Armada games
Warf was not barred from command for having a relationship with jadzea. He was barred for disobeying orders and failing the mission when he could have succeeded
Honestly I think that is even worse. That has so much wiggle room you could fly a Defiant Class through it. I mean the whole point is the are more suggestions so I guess its up to the individual captain. I mean justifiable to whom? I really want to get home so I would justify a lot more than most.
I would have to point out the Temporal Prime Directive; really weird law. It was written by those in the future to be imposed on the past so that the future may benefit. Those in the past barely have knowledge of it, didn't vote on it, and yet are punished for breaking it.
The Temporal Prime Directive never really existed in Janeways time, so whe was never really bound by it. It only came into existence when the ships that were able to travel through time were created. She only mentioned it after run ins with Captain Braxton of the Relativity who was bound by it since the Relativity was a time ship. It had been mentioned before in STNG with one of the crew members turning out to be a time traveller.
Best part of omega is that the ship gets disabled. Imagine that happens in the middle of a battle, you have to outrun your enemy or you are on an intercept course...and your computer is like "all systems offline, please wake up your captain"...really sucks when you captain is dead and you dont have a Borg refugee aboard...your dead in the water
Except I'd think that, in the event of the death of the captain, the first officer would rise to fill the hole in the table of organization, and the computer would then brief the new captain on it.
Katherine Janeway violated the prime directive in the pilot of the show when she destroyed that space station that among other things could have sent them back to the Alpha Quadrant. As far as not respecting the culture and rituals of the Klingons, certain exceptions would have to be made, or Worf could kill Captain Picard the moment he perceived him as weak.
Hold up, how is destroying a post-warp tech-level space station a violation of “keep advanced tech out of lower civilizations” & “ don’t get involved in pre-warp cultures” ? :/
There was that one where (Wesley Crusher) was sentenced to die in TNG. Because he broke a law on some planet when he threw a ball and broke something important to those people. Picard somehow saved him. But it was touchy for a while. They made a whole episode of that situation. It must have been huge.
I always felt the difference was Picard would admit when he broke the Prime Directive (as in "Justice"), whereas Kirk (and Sisko in "Battlelines") would rationalize how they weren't violating it.
I always got the impression that Picard often was torn between his moral code and Starfleet regulations; he disliked going against "the rules," but did so if he felt morally compelled to do so, with the inevitable second-guessing and guilt that comes along with that.
@@dashcamandy2242 Given how Picard's snotty elitist attitude was willing to condemn the 20th-century cryogenically frozen humans to permanent death because of his superiority complex, I don't buy that he felt guilt.
Random fact. When I was at Rutgers Commander Sisko was a teacher there and a lot of classes were actually taught via teleconference with him in Star Fleet uniform either before of after filming DS9
10:16 When Sisko tells Worf that Worf won't get a command of his own, it's not because Worf violated a rule against fraternization. It's because Worf put his personal needs ahead of the mission, and therefore can't be trusted in command. Sisko himself, of course, was married to another Starfleet officer, and still got a command. It's a great (subtle) contrast to what Picard does in "Lessons," when he sends Lt.Cmdr. Daren, his girlfriend, on a dangerous mission where she might be killed. She lives, but Picard is worried enough about her that he realizes he can't continue the relationship, lest his judgement as the captain be compromised.
"Sisko himself, of course, was married to another Starfleet officer" No, he wasn't. Sisko was married twice, to Jennifer and Kasidy, and neither one was a Starfleet officer.
Little point about the Baku mentioned in the prime directive bit. They exploited a loophole to sanction it, the Baku weren't Pre-warp, they had discovered it and abandoned it, meaning that while they currently didn't use warp, they still knew of it's existence
When I first heard that, I figured it was just one of insane Janice Lester's delusions. When I later read that, in fact, Gene Roddenberry (at least, at the time) meant it seriously, I was really surprised.
Yes I agree, it is easily the most ridiculous rule. The only reason it is not mentioned that I can think of, is that it is so out there and clearly retconned in the future series, that it is not necessary to mention it .
@@madspedersen5161 I think if you're looking at the whole history of a long-running tv series, it's worth mentioning such a horrid element of the series that used to be 100% canon.
Omega was one of my favorite Voyager episodes. I really enjoy when they delve into deep science fiction as opposed to action and pew pew. I also enjoyed the original episode with the giant amoeba thing that drained energy and life and was going to split soon. Can't recall the episode name. I'd say my least favorite trend was the whole mirror universe stuff from DS9. Such boring filler episodes!
I’ve said that if TNG depended too much on time travel, the DS9 depends too much on the Mirror Universe. Regarding Omega, I love 7’s line about “the closest thing to a religious experience.”
I liked mirror on TOS and ENT. But I can see how it can get out of hand / boring / wasted time / distraction from the point / REALLY unrealistic even compared to normal Trek.
Wait in the one Enterprise episode a school kid asked about relationships, and Archer says there is no rule against it but it would be hard to find privacy.
@@LordSluggo The exact quote " 'Is dating allowed on Enterprise?' Well, it's not discouraged, but there isn't a lot of privacy on a starship." In this context, officers are included. No exceptions were given.
Not just Riker, in the Voyager episode "Learning Curve", when Tuvok was addressing the crew members he was giving a crash course of Starfleet rules and regulations to, one of them was a Bajoran and he (Tuvok) had him remove his earring.
@@specie8470 I always sort of thought “she’s a counselor so I guess she doesn’t have to wear a uniform” until that episode. Then I thought, why is she the only one who doesn’t have to
“We will accept whatever form of dress you wear.” Except Riker who forces Ro to take off her Bajoran earring.
Ro had to take off her Bajoran Earring, but Nog was allowed to wear his Ferengi Headdress.
Yeah... Riker probably didn't NEED to do that, he was pretty biased against Ro from the get go
I thought it was because it was a religious practice and to be in starfleet, you can not prefer any faith over any other when serving starfleet
Yet ignores Worf's Klingon chain sash.
@@1976jdk I think it's more a military dress uniform, the sash, I mean
"Understandable on paper, but Klingons are built different!" there is a t-shirt somewhere in there.
No, no. He's got a point! I want this!
There will be soon. How do u print stuff on t shirts again?
A red t shirt?
The Prime Suggestion: Don’t interfere with other cultures unless it’s really inconvenient not to or it’s necessary to advance the plot of the story. Or unless you’re James T. Kirk and you really really want to.
There's a mistake in this video. It wasn't Miramanee's people in "A Private Little War." It was Nona and Tyree's people Kirk armed. Miramanee's people were the Amerindian people on the planet with the asteroid-repelling obelisk.
Upvoted for comment (and username).
@@jonp3890
Thank you 👍
@@Shan_Dalamani
I think that’s the only episode of TOS that I haven’t seen all the way through. I saw part of it recently but I was called away from it for some reason. I guess that gives me something to look forward to.
Or if your planet has babes and Captain Kirk is there
“When has justice ever been as simple as a rulebook?”
-William “The Maneuver” Riker
I learned more ethical lessons from Star Trek than years of school.
It's not up to schools to teach ethics, that's the parents job.
Seems yours did pretty well if you're an ethical person who watches star trek. 😉
@@carlh-thehermitwithwi-fi679 Sounds like Capt. Kirk.
I also like what Picard said right before that line. If I remember correctly it was something like, ‘There can be no justice as long as laws are absolute.”
If total destruction of a planet was the 24th Order they wrote down... my goodness, what are the other 23 orders before it ?!? :-O
@@Blendercage That's from the one where Wesley faces the death penalty for playing ball games in the "prohibited zone" that he didn't know about.
One of my favorite Picard moments: Picard has to negotiate with the Sheliaks when they find a human population on one of their planets, and Picard uses their own treaty with the Federation against them in order to evacuate them in time.
My favorite Picard moment. When he lets a planet full of people die because of the prime directive. The ***.
You enjoyed that didnt you.
You're damned right.
My favorite part was when it was over. Kurtzman trek is unworthy
@@Doctoranthetardis oh, you're one of THOSE types.
@@Phobos_Anomaly yea you mean someone with taste yes.
Worf: kills a guy and almost aids in assisted suicide.
Ensign Ro Laren: has to negotiate to wear an ear ring.
JR Ensign Crusher: knocks over an inch high fence, Death penalty and the captain has to abide by it
@@AsbestosMuffins "shut up Westley. If your mom wants a kid that much, I'll help her make a replacement"
@@ancapftw9113 😂😂😂 I’m actually dying
Came here to say this.
@@RetroDotTube Rest in Peace. Condolences to your loved ones.
For the uniform is talked about a lot in regards to Sisko, but I rarely see anyone mention, likely because it's one line mentioned in the closing, what Sisko actually did was make the planet uninhabitable by HUMANS for 50 years, in the closing, he says that the Cardassians who were displaced by the Maquis biogenic weapons will move there and the humans will move to the planet abandoned by the Cardassians. So at first glance, it seems like he's really gone off the rails, but it wasn't as extreme as it initially seemed.
Agreed. It was still a harsh move, but let's describe it accurate, and not claim it was something it wasn't.
Yes, but there are 2 things you are not taking into account:
1. Trilithium resin is HIGHLY toxic to humans. Anyone especially young, old, or sick may very well have died before they could evacuate. They did NOT even begin to evacuate until after Sisko shot the Trilithium resin into the atmosphere, because they didn't seriously think he'd do it.
2. That was a COLONY he poisoned. Likely thousands or even tens of thousands strong. Not everyone was a Maquis soldier or raider. Most would have been sympathizers, but guilty of no other crime. Innocents, basically.
Taking that into account, it is more than likely at least SOME innocent sympathizers DIED from what Sisko did. And he got no court-martial, no criminal charges, it's not even mentioned again. Some interpret this to mean no one died. I believe that to be extremely unlikely.
Even if no one actually died, thousands COULD HAVE died, as a direct result of Sisko's actions. That is not in keeping with Starfleet regulations OR Federation ideals. Remember how shocked all his officers were when he gave the order, even Worf the Klingon, even Kira the former terrorist. Keep in mind they all live in the 24th century, and NOT today. They are supposed to be more rational and evolved than we are. They are held to higher standards, ESPECIALLY Starfleet Officers.
Sisko should have been thrown out of Starfleet and brought up on charges. The Dominion war, and his prominent part in it, is the only reason he wasn't. That's like comparing a pardon to an acquittal. One means you are innocent, the other does NOT. If he did not "join the Prophets" during the series finale, I think he CERTAINLY would have suffered SOME kind of legal consequences once the war was over. They may have been reduced due to his part in the war, but he would have suffered SOMETHING, even if it was no future promotions beyond captain. More likely, he would have been reduced in rank back down to commander and the Defiant would no longer be his to command. Someone else would have been brought in to command her (if anyone was available), while he remained in control of DS9. The Bajorans would demand no less.
None of that means he is as "pure as the driven snow", it means he has clout and favors to call in so that he does not suffer the consequences of his actions. Like the way politicians and rich people almost always get off scot-free no matter what they do. That is what Sisko is, NOT an dyed-in-the-wool hero, but a dirty one. The one who does "what must be done", no matter how dirty it may be. I'm honestly surprised he had ANY qualms about Section 31 when he learned of them and their tactics.
Think REAL HARD about what I said before responding, don't just give a knee-jerk response. Sisko can still be a hero, just not a clean one.
@BigFred 2294 But he does hold the distinction of being the only known human to actually punch Q and knock him on his ass
@@sterlingdennett But who is to say how long it would take for the toxin to defuse over the atmosphere and concentrate to a harmful level? It could be something that take hours, days, weeks or months to become a threat to human life. Also, while it may be toxic to human life, there is no evidence that it's effects can't be remedied once a person is out of that environment.
@@arbee7327 that is true, and that is why I said it was UNLIKELY no one died, not certain that no one died. Also, ATTEMPTED mass poisoning is not a nothing charge.
General order 6 huh?
Captain: "Time for shore leave people!"
*on planet surface* Captain: "Wait, who's still on board to keep the ship from exploding?"
First officer: "I thought you would?"
Ship: BOOM!
OMG didnt even think of that.... LMAO
hmmm, talk about a mega "oopsie"...
Imagine forgetting to shut it off when parking in Spacedock
@@chrisd1746 Mo-mo-mo-mo-MONSTER KILL KILL kill kill!
And of course the sterilization episode where it was what... Picard who was stuck on board while the death field swept through it?
Starfleet Law: Whatever is most convenient for the plot.
the EMH on Voyager had his programming altered to allow him to activate/deactivate himself early on in the show. maybe that can explain why he doesn't deactivate when the ship is taken over.
The Hirogen could have simply reactivated the EMH verbally. Its not unlikely anyone can call the EMH.
@@MGower4465 And the protocol itself may have been implemented due to the Dominion War, and so Voyager did not have that protocol.
Janeway: Punishes and demotes Lt. Tom Paris back to Ensign for breaking Prime directive to save people.
Also Janeway: To hell with Prime directive!
this is maybe a rank thing.. so as ensign you are allowed to talk about stuff as LT you can drop a tricorder s comander a pahser as captian you need to get the best outcome and as admirale you can do what ever you want
By any means necessary. Seems unambiguous.
If only one was a captain and the only one who should make that decision, or something
Voyager was one of the more inconsistent of the series at least until Discovery/Lower Decks. It matters little though you lose by default for being a furry.
@@lastswordfighter Ah no opinion then from you due to lack of intelligence and a conceited attitude. Grow up
There's a town where I grew up called Stouffville (StOH-fill). As a kid watching ST I thought the klingons go to Stouffville Core and I wondered why downtown stouffville was so important to the STU.
Worf became my favorite character when I was real young because he's a Klingon and my last name sounds very similar. So lil me thought I was a Klingon warrior like Worf
We have one here too. Just north of Markham, about 40 km northeast of Toronto! Where is yours?
That's... hilarious. 🤣
That is actually really good. ^____^
It was actually one of only a very few Klingon words I ever understood (probably because it was mentioned so many times). I recognized it at least once when someone said something in Klingon and that was the one word I understood.
Sort of like Russian or Greek or ancient Latin.
Except that it's Klingon to me but I can pick out a very few words in it anyway.
Or, as one of my friends and fellow fans in college said one time in singing class, "Sounds like we're singing in Klingon." (We were actually singing in Hebrew. "Mo'oz Tzur." For Chanukah.)
One law you forgot. Romulan ale is illegal, yet it's almost at every Starfleet party, there was a bottle in ten-forward, Captain kirk had a bottle as a birthday gift, and it was at the dinner between The Federation and the Klingon Chancellor. If it's illegal why is it you so openly so much.
The same reason pot was ubiquitous even when it was illegal. Banning stuff doesn't really work people are going to get what they want.
@@LanMandragon1720 No, it was illegal for a number of different reasons. It was made legal because a few religions use it, it would be against the freedom religion to arrest someone for there religious belief. Plus it medical use despite the side effects. It was enforced when it was illegal. Romulan Ale has no connection to religion or medicine. And it's not enforced. Starfleet is quick to say it' illegal yet they served at diplomatic parties. Sidenote: contrary to public belief, pot has very bad effects on my tribe and Aborigines of Australia. It makes us extremely irritated and violent.
@@leaaronsanchez What? I'm it taking about Pot legality. I'm saying even when it was banned it wasn't here to gett at all. Hell methamphetamine is illegal right and for good reasons. Yet if I really wanted to try some I could within a day. Romulan ale in the UFP is something like that. The state can ban whatever they want to. People are still going to get it if they want it is the point.
"For medicinal purposes..." - Bones
Yep, just like weed.
@@tetravega567 There's no ale in the universe for medical purposes, especially with what drinking does to your liver.
Kirk reads the prime directive front to back whenever he wants to have a good laugh about rules and them "applying" to him
LOL^ that
Hey let's not even get into the Temporal Prime Directive! LOL
I was looking for this comment.
Or, will I be looking for it?
Temporal matters are so confusing!
Come back last Tuesday when we'll cover it again.
“Don’t try to understand the temporal prime directive”
~captain Janeway
That has been written far far in the future, so it doesn't apply yet except from before the foundation of the Federation to what it will become.
Cunfused? You won't be after this next episode of Soap.
We had this talk already, Ed. Or we will have? Not really sure anymore.
I'd say, when other warp civilizations decide to start messing with a pre-warp civilization, the Prime Directive ought to be rescinded. Starfleet officers wouldn't be required to interfere necessarily, but they shouldn't be charged for doing so either. The main reason for the Prime Directive, after all, is to prevent more advanced cultures from messing with the natural development of less advanced civilizations, but if another advanced culture is messing with them already, the concern is moot.
Regardless, the Prime Directive really ought to be more of a guideline than a strict rule. There are times when it would be just senseless. Like, if a world killer asteroid was en-route to a pre-industrial civilization. Exactly how is the civilization going to 'grow and adapt' to meet a 'challenge' in their developing culture when it's something they completely can't avoid, is just pure bad luck and not self-inflicted, and they have no chance of overcoming because it's just that destructive? Doubly so when Starfleet can do something to help that the culture likely wouldn't notice anyway.
Fact is, and this was confrmed by interviews, that the Prime Directive was originally just that, a guideline not a law. It was made into a law during TNG, probably because they needed more drama, ölike letting a whole planets population die, because 'muh interference'
In the event of an incoming asteroid, just blast it, no violation of the directive, you aren't changing anything on-planet. Volcano or such is harder, but potentially doable. The point is to avoid cultural contamination, or introduction of advanced tech. If you can save the day without doing either of those, go for it.
I agree with you in theory, but I find I have a problem with your argument. It is because of the dinosaurs and the asteroid that killed them. If an advanced civilization happened to be near earth during that time and decided to stop the asteroid, the earth would be very different today. I doubt humans would exist as a species. I don't think I am okay with that. What gave those aliens the right to make that decision. I (mostly) like existing. Species live and die, civilizations rise and fall, suns go nova, and eventually the universe will die from entropy. That is the way of things, and to interfere is to have profound consequences that one person could never fully comprehend.
As for the first point, once a civilization is contaminated by another race that doesn't follow the Prime Directive, I totally agree. The objective then should be to mitigate the damage as much as possible. Having Starfleet unable to "interfere" ensures that contamination will only get worse and that the planet will soon be controlled by the enemy.
@@colyn4109 you have a fair point, except for one thing. We currently have no evidence that the dinosaurs had any kind of technology whatsoever. Stopping the asteroid that impacted the yucatan peninsula may not have saved the planet from mass extinction anyway, but it would certainly have altered the natural development of the world.
The issue at hand here is the existence of a technological society at the time of the incident. Not stopping the asteroid because some other species *might* develop technological capability millions of years later still sacrifices the existing technological society that is already there, and it would set a precedent that would lead to decision paralysis in your starship captains, because no one can know what might or might not change the development of a world on a timescale that long.
@@colyn4109 That Dinosaur argument doesn't apply though. The dinosaurs weren't people, but animals. Even the most intelligent of them are thought to be dumber than the average bird of today.
There is a big difference between saving a society of people, compared to saving the current reigning non-intelligent life forms.
Besides, we generally don't know what the future holds. Acting based on known information and reasonable supposition is preferable to making wild guesses about possible outcomes. For example; you see someone about to die, and you can save them at little to no cost to yourself. Do you save them? Most people would say 'yes'. Suppose they end up a genocidal maniac. Is that long term result your fault? Debatable, but you couldn't have known. All you knew at the time was an intelligent being was about to die needlessly and acted to stop that from happening.
If we're going to play the long shot 'what if?' game, for all we know, if the dinosaurs had been allowed to continue on, one species or other could have eventually evolved into a prosperous peaceful race of intergalactic explorers, and I think that such a hypothetical loss would be a shame too.
The idea behind the Prime Directive was more or less coalescing back in Archer’s time, but not consistently applied. Phlox wanted to not interfere with the dying out of one of the two species on one planet in ENT’s “Civilization” and yet, after the Xindi attack on Earth, Archer agrees with Trip when he reminds him that they need to do what’s necessary to neutralize the threat: “….And none of that non-interference stuff T’Pol’s always going on about”
None of these are laws, they're fleet operating policies and regulations. Culturally, starship captains seem to have pretty wide latitude to disregard regulations in the field as they see fit.
Ship's Captains have been typically treated as "The Rulers Of Their Kingdoms", with their ships being their independent little kingdoms. They command their ship. Navies tended to do this less, and withmore regulation on the Captains, as the NAVY owned the ship, instead of how it was previously where The Captain was often the ship's owner. When you had civilian companies that owned ships, the Captains were also often regulated to be in control of their respectie ships, but only up to the point of "you don't own this ship bucko, the company does." So Ship Captains are often given carte blanche to do as they please with their own property, so long as it does not violate actual laws, to do with as needed with the Company's or the Navy's ship, so long as it does not violate laws or regulations.
Remember also though, that NAVAL REGULATIONS... are LAWS... NOT just rules or guidelines. For example, take the US Army's Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) [I was Army, so I'm using what I know.] The UCMJ is a code of LAWS, written for and under the jurisdiction of the US Army's internal court justice system. Yes, the each branch of the US Military has it's own internal laws and justice system, all of which fall under the Department of Defense's internal justice system, which falls under the Federal Government's overall justice system. It is not wholly separate from any Local, County, or State justice systems, they simply run in separate jurisdictions. If a Soldier violates a local law for example, they can be tried in BOTH the Military Courts Martial system, AND in the Local system. They cannot be Double Jeopardied, but they can stand in a Court Martial to receive Military punishment for charges levied against them, like to boot them from the Military for example, so they can then stand trial as a discharged civilian in the Local system, for the charges of their actual crime they committed. Two different punishments for the same ACTION(S) that led to their overall crime, from two different legal authorities, but there is no double jeopardy because the Military would not be prosecuting them for the main crime for example, but for the regulation violations the committing of that crime caused... like "Conduct Unbecoming of a Commissioned Officer of the United States (insert service branch here)". So, for example, if an officer murdered some other Sailor in the Navy, the Navy might prosecute the Officer and deal with the crime in its entirety, as the jurisdiction is internal. However, if the victim was a civilian, then the Navy would most often prosecute the Officer by Dishonorably Discharging the Officer due to conduct unbecoming and a host of other regulation violationa, then send them to the civilian authorities, where they would be prosecuted for the actual murder and whatever other civilan charges would be levied against the then previous officer turned disgraced civilian.
Lastly, if the Officer killed another Sailor, then they would most likely be sent to Leavenworth Federal Penetentiary. Leavenworth is the US Military prison for its nastiest internal criminals, where those who have committed crimes within the jurisdiction of The US Military's justice system (the UCMJ for example), go to serve their imprisonment sentences. It does have a death row and inmates stillmake big rocks small as I understand it. However, if said imaginary officer killed a civilian; thus making the crime of civilian justice sysem jurisdiction; then they would serve out their sentencing in a CIVILIAN prison system, and would be given whatever punishment the civilian courts give them, as the Military washes their collective hands of any association with the given dirtbag piece of garbage then former officer. The Military will ALWAYS take first whack at prosecution and sentencing however, iver the civilian courts, as they want to get rid of the trash from their ranks FIRST, before sending their garbage to said civilian courts to be thrown into the appropriate proverbial landfill or incinerator. :-)
Ngl I sort of hate Starfleet command they are way to stiff I don’t really know
uh... no
in the original series the penalty for breaking the prime directive was death
@@RetroDotTube I always thought that Starfleet was almost certainly *less* stiff/strict than the actual military in some ways. But yes, I would probably find *both* too stiff/strict for my liking if I tried to be actually *in* them.
Actual conversation a few years ago between me and a young man I used to know who had been in the Marines for one year (age eighteen to nineteen).
Me: Why on earth were you in the military if you don't like being told what to do?
Him: That aspect of it had not occurred to me at that time.
Good answer, actually, but it reminds me of how I think that probably most civilians and especially most civilians in their late teens or younger...have actually *even less* idea than I do of how the military usually behaves.
From telling you what time to get up and which month of which year you can go home, to other things much *more* strict than that, the military is actually *all about* telling people what to do. In all sorts of different ways.
Starfleet is basically a science fiction/science fantasy version of the actual American and British and possibly other military systems. That's *why* it's the way it is.
Including a lot of fun things, useful things *and* potentially too strict things.
Starfleet was one of the reasons why I learned early to think about things like how disobeying a direct order from your commanding officer can get you into very bad trouble even if you did it to save many lives, but actually some of the Starfleet captains (Picard for one) did *not* generally punish for that if they believed that the officer had a really important real reason (like saving lives for instance).
Picard went pretty easy on people compared to what *could* have happened.
@@KittyStarlight this is a wonderful answer, I think though that most of the strict feelings I’m getting are coming from the influence of the Vulcans. The prime directive for example, lots of great things in it but some of it makes no sense whatsoever. The temporal prime directive is the same way.
Loved the Star Trek Generations reference. (Ah don’t tell me, Tuesday?”
You're easily amused.
@@waynemarvin5661 and you clearly have too much time on your hands.
I remember when Ro Laren was introduced she wasn't allowed her earing because it wasn't part of the dress code. But Worf could wear his Klingon sash. I never understood why and was kind of ticked about it.
Like Captain Barbossa says in Pirates of the Caribbean, "They're more like guidelines than rules." I feel like the Prime Directive is quite problematic in so many circumstances
My guess, and it is only a guess, is there is some sort of good standing regulation. So Worf earned the right to wear it - Ro was a disgraced officer. I think that kind of thing happens in any work place.
Perhaps there's an official process for requesting uniform exceptions? Worf applied and was granted his exception. Ro wore the earring without ever requesting permission.
@@danielyeshe yet Troi got away with that mini-skirt uniform until she was ordered to change to regulation uniform by some admiral or other (forget the episode, probably "The Neutral Zone" or "Best of Both Worlds").
@@andrewmurray1550 I think hers was supposed to be a uniform varient. Hard to varify since we never saw other councilor of that era.
@@andrewmurray1550 Neither. It's the one where Captain Queeg replaces Picard while he is off being tortured by the Cardassians (I cannot be bothered looking up the episode name). IIRC it is explicitly stated that it is some sort of staff uniform and that since she is command rated she is to start wearing a standard uniform (but that was of course nonsense all the other doctors and nurses, which would be staff officers wore the standard one except that one guy we saw in the pilot).
If I was trapped with T'pol and she needed me to help her with her Ponn Farr, I'd take the court martial
You are saving her life, so ... yeah. 🤔🤣😏
as would every other red blooded or green blooded male.
I would trick her into signing marriage documents, then put her on medication that keeps her in that state permanently.
same here
Amen. 😻😻😻
Insert Barbossa's "More like guidelines than actual rules" line
General Order 34 _can_ be an odd one and that handling of Kurn's dishonor could've been a _lot_ smoother. The problem with it (if you ask me) was that Worf tried to put Kurn to death _on board the station._ This was what made it, for all intents and purposes, safer for him to kill _Duras._ Duras' death took place on board a _Klingon_ ship, so the disposal of his remains was then handled by _Klingons._
So it seems to me it would've been diplomatically safer if Worf and Kurn had taken a runabout to some place _not_ under Federation (or for that matter, Bajoran) jurisdiction before they carried out the ceremony that would've made Kurn's transition to Sto'vo'kor possible.
What I've been saying since it aired!
I've never been convinced that General Order 34 applied to Worf killing Duras. No dispute that Worf is genetically Klingon... but culturally? He tries to be a good Klingon, but he was raised by Humans and, arguably, is culturally Human (the number of times he acts like a Human instead of a Klingon are far too numerous to mention). On the other hand... the General Orders are (pardon, can't resist) generally ignored unless convenient.
@@rickelleman6613 General Order 34?
Doesn't apply to me. I'm a Captain, not a General!
@@rickelleman6613 I think it's a bit more complicated than that.
He might have been brought up by humans but he always made sure to keep to Klingon traditions where he could.
It often shows in TNG or DS9 that he was torn on what way to follow.
Though the most telling moment for me was when Picard told him that as a star fleet officer worf could not help gowron win a civil war and worf choose the Klingons over the federation.
There is certainly human influence but he is Klingon and he identifies as such especially in difficult decisions.
you would think that such an order would have exceptions in any case. like here, we talk about religious freedom all the time, but if your beliefs involve like, killing and eating other people, thats the point we'd all be like "i say, hold on." having the rule be that you must support a culture's ways provided it doesn't contradict a few basic, universal laws, seems way more justifiable.
First, really enjoy these videos! Second, Mirimani wasn't in "A private little war". She was in that other episode where Kirk went native and had to activate that asteroid deflector Obelisk
Good catch! I wonder how many others' ears perked up when they heard Mirimani was running guns. What would Leonard James Aka-arrgh (sp?) say?
Right?! Great stuff! This one was especially witty. . . And I heard that little kernel and my brain went "stand by . . . Accessing . . ."
Also, Vina was a passenger aboard the SS Columbia. The Valiant was destroyed attempting to breach the Galactic Barrier
Bill Roman It was "The Paradise Syndrome."
The Paradise Syndrome
Nu-uh! Miramanee's people were not the featured aliens in "A Private Little War." They were in "The Paradise Syndrome."
Exactly, I knew he was going to mess this list up...
It was Kirks best friend Tyree, who he helped armed with Flint Locks, serpents other wise known as Muskets.
Tyrees wife was known as a Magootu woman, a Witch Doctor.
I scrolled down to see if anyone had picked it up
I knew someone else would mention this.
I thought I caught that!
2 very different story lines!
I'm recalling from memory here, but maybe the problem with Worf's actions was that he disobeyed a precise order and jeopardized a mission. The fact that he was in one along with his companion is secondary. The consequences he had to face would still have been the same if he did what he did with - say - a close friend or a relative, not necessarily a mate. True, leaving a loved one behind is tougher, but if you screw up a mission, all it matters is the scew-up, not the person that led you to stray from the plan.
Could it be that way?
Exactly; his judgment was considered suspect, as opposed to him breaking a specific law.
Sisko fucked up sending the pair together.
@@rednoggy Agreed. I have always thought that Sisko was responsible for the failure of the mission, not Worf.
@@Bastion90 Which is probably why Worf eventually DOES get a command of his own, supposedly he ended up with the Enterprise E after Picard was promoted to Admiral although we never do see this on screen.
As SIsko had stated he would have done the same and regadlessly, the biggest mistake, and Sisko said he would fix it, was putting the man on the mission with his Wife. Which I will state is very boneheaded to start off with. You don't put a man in a postion to deal with emotions on top of an important mission if it isn't neccesary.
About "any means neccecarry" in context of the equinox: the mass murder wasn't nececarry, they had a working ship, and they had time, so they could have used the voyager route (searching wormholes ect) without committing murder.
To be fair though, the Nova class, unlike the the Intrepid class, is a short range science vessel. The class was only designed for cruises of weeks or months.There was no way in hell THEY could've taken 72 years to get home. Ransom also didn't have the man power Janeway did either. Equinox had a crew of 40 to Voyager's 150 plus the additional Maquis. Equinox didn't have the resources available, nor did they have the cargo space to hold said resources if they did. The Intrepid class is a long range science vessel designed for cruises lasting years. They had the means to gather resources as they ran short. Janeway had has another crucial resource Ransom didn't.... You might remember a certain gentleman named Neelix..Ransom didn't have him.
These are just little details that seemed to slip Katheryn Janeway's mind as she sat across from Rudolph Ransom and delivered her sanctimonious speech.
@@mothafraker ok, good points...
The Nova class was also slower than the intrepid. So whilst voyagers initial journey was 72 years I think ransom mentions that the route home for the Equinox would have been over 100 years. So with that in mind you can see his reasoning for applying "anything it takes", but at the same time his application of the rule went a bit to far. I think (head canon) that that particular rule was written following the NX01s journey through the expans when archer raided another ship for its war coil. Now that was dark, but archer did leave the raided ship with enough supplise for them to get back home/to a nearby starbase. Dark yes, but not mass murder dark... That was "dear doctor" :P
the difference is between being stranded with a frigate or a heavy destroyer. Voyager is an oddity because its a big ship but not too big that it can't operate independently, while the equinox was too small to operate on its own
What does "neccecarfy" mean?
I think one of the “weirdest” laws in Star Trek isn’t a law that is weird because it exists, but because it apparently does NOT exist. Apparently there isn’t a law prohibiting the unauthorized holodeck simulation of an existing living person. Given what you could do in a holodeck with a hologram, why is it legal to make holodeck programs of people you know IRL?
I remember Major Kira having the last laugh on Quark where he tried making a copy of her for a client. It was the only decent part of the episode.
Would you want everyone calling you Senator Killjoy?
As long as it is for private use, not sure it illegal IRL. It would be like insisting your imagination is illegal. Now is it healthy? That is a very different question. And using the image for profit, and Quark does, almost certainly illegal.
Reg Barclay does it and Quark does it, and in neither case do they get brought up on charges. I feel like if there were charges, Kira happily would have sicced Odo on him. I don't think what Reg does is or should be illegal, but since Quark plans to distribute/sell it, it should be illegal without written permission or something. I bet we're actually figuring this out right now in society, with deepfakes, etc.
Do you need permission to draw someone or make a 3D render of them? I just see this as an extension of that, at least if it’s for private use.
Another problem with the Omega Directive is how it locks out all of the ships consoles. There’s a million problems with that part too.
Also wouldn't it be a good idea for people to know about omega particles if it's so problematic to travel? with all the particles people encounter..and just how strong is that particle the science makes no sense!
@@gorkskoal9315 don’t forget how impossible it seems to create. The Borg could only attempt it once. The planet voyager visits has a unique metal/ore and had to devote significant resources to create power from it. I somehow doubt many will be able to recreate this particle without huge expenses, only to have it blow up on them.
@@Ceece20 and also the borg wouldn't think twice about a weapon or device that uses them. Why stop at just a shield penetrating tractor been when you can keep your next simulation target from running as well?
@@gorkskoal9315 exactly, they could probably just figure out a different way for traveling, or not even care and just travel without FTL
@@Ceece20 yeah, well in best of both worlds the iconic episode with lucuts. Isn't that episode no one knew how the board travel through space because they were able to well exceed warp factor 9 and at least by federation standards that was considered dangerously fast but the board were more than able to go to warp factor 10 or even 11. So at least to me that sounds like they already can do something other than warp drive the government ridiculously fast. By the time of Voyager they'd even set up a permanent network to do exactly that which they were able to more or less go at a leisurely's pace within the network but outside of the network we're going you know ridiculous speed where go full plaid. Sounds to me like the both at least figured out how to make Omega particles and could refine the process further plus then didn't really give a s*** how fast they could go at normal light speed why bother when they can use their super duper Uber speed as well as time travel and go through their subspace network. Which you know I dig I think that's really cool.
That law that got Wesley to be put on trial was pretty good
I'm sure they just took one look ar Wesley and made it up on the spot, though.
@@Thechezbailey "Man, this kid's annoying. Hope it doesn't spread to ours. Oh thank Edo - he fell into a garden. DEATH PENALTY!"
Agreed but they actually gave him the axe so that was a bust
yes but when Wesley actually did get involved in a crime (The First Duty covering up the death of his flight squadron teammate) all that happens to him is he gets his class credits/grades revoked and has to repeat that year.
@@andrewmurray1550 good point. I forgot about that.
Doherty regrettably made a solid point about the Ba’ku as and I quoted “The Prime Directive doesn’t apply, these people are not Indigenous to this planet”
ie starfleet knew the Ba’ku had warp capability and thus were not a pre-warp civilization
"and thus were not a pre-warp civilization"
They don't need to be. The Prime Directive doesn't exclusively apply to pre-warp civilizations. The Prime directive still prohibits unwelcome interference in the Baku's culture, and removing them from their planet without their knowledge certainly qualifies.
@@CorvusBelli01 but it was not their planet. The ba'ku went there specifically to exploit the youth radiation so they can screw around ad infinitum without a worry. Doherty was right, the Ba'ku had no more right to the planet than the Federation, which at the time mind you, was at war with the Dominion who were manufactuirng their soldiers.
@@realGBx64 "but it was not their planet"
It was their planet; it simply wasn't their home planet. Same way every colony ever established by any spacefaring civilization in Star Trek belongs to the colonising race.
"The ba'ku went there specifically to exploit the youth radiation"
That's incorrect; they moved to the planet before discovering the life-extending properties of the metaphasic radiation.
"the Ba'ku had no more right to the planet than the Federation"
Except they were there first. By that same logic, the Federation had no more right to the colony on Cestus III than the Gorn did, and equally little right to Alpha Centauri, or Mars, or any other colony.
@@CorvusBelli01 Were they? This is a really confused point in the movie, because they say it's a Federation planet (which is why the Sona need to partner with the Federation in the first place, and why the Federation gets involved), yet the Baku don't seem to be Federation citizens. I'm not sure how that could happen, unless the Federation had already claimed that space when the planet was uninhabited and the Baku arrived afterwards -- otherwise the Federation wouldn't be able to just claim an inhabited planet without the cooperation of the race that lives there.
@@realGBx64
Well, they were their first. That gives them the claim. Just because someone has something you want doesn't give you the right to take it.
The conflict between the prime directive and the need to help prevent senseless loss of life is one of the most interesting parts of this series to me. I think the early episode Miri shows this well, where non-interference would have let a disease wipe out human life on the planet, but survival and basic decency forced them to develop a cure and share it with the few survivors.
4:53 "AH! Don't tell me...Tuesday!" - GREAT quote!
I would have made a bad Starfleet captain. I would have leaned on General Order 24 to resolve most problems. I remember seeing a few TOS episodes where I felt like Kirk should have threatened a government with planetary bombardment if they didn't give up whichever officer they held for whatever stupid local law they broke.
@Melchior Magni That was how Kirk rolled. Remember the time they were all supposed to be executed because the war computers decided the Enterprise had been destroyed? Kirk's response was to briefly take over the capital, destroy their infrastructure, and force a resolution between the planets.
Kirk does the right thing whenever possible. If the Prime Directive agrees with him, then that's all well and good. But ultimately, it's more of a guideline than anything else.
For many of these, it's not so much that they're "weird" but that they fell victim to lack of continuity. Thus, in one episode Kirk can say that a captain must be prepared to sacrifice his ship & crew in order to follow the PD, while another episode can say, "Well, you can break it to save your crew, if you must."
Imagine the awkward conversation with Dr. Crusher every time Riker wanted to "date" a new alien.
Maybe the protocol that Janeway quoted to poor young ENSIGN Harry Kim, only applies to junior officers? Riker was after all the First Officer of the ship, and likely had a fair amount more privileges than a lowly Ensign.
"Riker! Space clap AGAIN!"
@@alanfoxman5291 "More like a standing ovation this time, Doc!"
@@ReelMeurik If I was Harry I would taken the Doctor's magic cure.
I'm pretty sure this only applies to non federation species. But ya Riker broke this left and right lol.
The warp drive prerequisite for the prime directive has always seemed a bit of an odd one. What if it's a private company/individual who discovers/conducts the flight? What if they have interstellar travel but no warp drive? e.g. Bajoran Solar Sail, Stargate?
Also, regarding Worf's inability to get a command of his own in the future. This seems to have been side-stepped, via a recent Picard novel, where Captain Picard pushes Starfleet to appoint Worf as the new Captain of the Enterprise-E, following Picard's promotion to Admiralty. So I suppose in-canon, it's now CAPTAIN Worf on the Enterprise-E.
he was in command of the defiant after this wasnt he?, not the rank of captain, but still in command
The highest ranking officer on a ship is the captain, even if they're only an ensign.
@@chadfalardeau5396 By the time an Ensign would be Captain,there'd be no one left on the ship to command. :P
@@SonicSlicer there are still the enlisted personnel, Nog and O'Brien has a conversation about it once
@@chadfalardeau5396 That's exactly the conversation I was referring to. Cheers.
I can't believe he done the whole list without once saying in his best Stallone voice "I am the law".
Missed opportunity. 🤣
You mean "I am... the LAH !"
I love the late DS9/TNG movie style uniform! That is one of my favorites over all, and I am glad to finally see it in one of TrekCulture’s videos.
And Sean looks handsome in it.
"Getting your crew home" != "saving your crew's lives."
I suppose he could argue the dangers involved with being stranded so far from home, but there certainly were better options available
Also regarding the sexual relations law: Wasn't there a voyager episode where Harry Kim was punished for having sex with a different species without asking the Doctors permission first? It's the one with the generation ship, I don't remember the title.
Edit: It's "The Disease" and he apparently needed Janeways permission too. Imagine if that Law existed back in Kirks day...
"Oh, I need both the Doctor's *and* Captain's permission? Well, I *am* the Captain, and seeing as I have half the permission I need, we might as well round up..."
and meanwhile Captain Kurk is like... "wut?"
There was also a similar incident in Enterprise.
Trip got pregnant from touching some alien beads after an alien woman had, somehow there was dna transfer. Archer gave him a lecture about conduct.
I guess most members of any given star trek cast broke that specific rule eventually (though be it off-screen) especially the crew of Voyager (followed closely by TOS and Enterprise) since allmost all their contacts were first contacts. You propably wouldn't need permisson for most federation species anymore (like human/vulcan or even human/klingon) since these kinds relationships have been going on for a long time at this point...
Why can't I stop imagining celvin-Spock in sickbay now, the doc being like "YES you can have sex with Lt. Uhura, just like you could yesterday. You don't need clearance every single night." "Logic would indicate so, but starfleet code in fact doesn't specify."
Talos IV: Vina was the sole survivor of SS Columbia. SS Valiant was mentioned - and its record buoy recovered - in TOS: Where No Man Has Gone Before.
*Starfleet and the Federation do seem to be more susceptible to the whims of Plot Convenience and Suspension of Disbelief than would otherwise be associated with any other known reality outside of the Matrix*
The omega directive was always absurd as i meant captains where maybe forced to start a war with a perhaps far more advanced race that uses omega as a peaceful and controlled power source.
The thing that always pissed me off about the prime directive is how vague it is. It makes no distinction between "rescue" and "meddling." Picard decides to let an entire sentient species die because saving them would violate the prime directive, which is just madness. Then, when Worf's brother actually saves a handfull of them, Picard is pissed off about it! How dare you display common human decency! I'll have no mercy shown to pre-warp civilizations aboard my ship.
Laws are to prevent people from knowingly doing bad things. If a law prevents someone from doing a good thing, then it is by definition an immoral, unethical law.
Ergo: the prime directive is a bad law.
It's an awful law. And the episode you're talking about even shows how a little competence and creativity can substitute for it entirely lol.
Yes, Picard was rather puritanical about the Prime Directive.
Yet in another episode, the Enterprise is tasked with evacuating a bunch of Irishish hillbillies, who are obviously from a prewarp civilization. The prime directive, as with the other Star Trek rules, is really just a plot device, and means whatever the writers want it to for that episode. While we're on the subject, what about the rule that forbids the Federation from employing cloaking technology? What nonsense! It's always passed off as one of the conditions of some peace treaty, but really? What sort of Federation negotiator would deprive his side of one of the most potent military technologies in the galaxy, a technology used by the Federation's two most powerful adversaries to great advantage? We never get to find out what the Romulans had to give up in return, but let's hope that that it was something big.
I think the prime directive was far too intense in later series; it would literally result in many civilizations dying because Star Fleet would sit back and watch them get wiped out.
Personally, if aliens where watching us, after they got the lay of the land, I'd be more than happy for them to come down, share their tech and culture with us, and protect us from disaster - sure, it would affect our culture, but the only way not to affect a culture ever is to completely isolate yourself from them forever. And even then, it would mean you indirectly affected that culture by making the galaxy seem more empty than it was.
My vote for weird rules: the one in TOS that says women can't be starfleet captains - clearly a product of the time it was written, it has aged horribly!
'It might be bad for them if we prevent their extinction'
The PD is not meant to protect primitive cultures, that is just the cover, it is meant to ensure Starfleet is protected and can play the three monkeys.
@SirMarshalHaig A rebuttal of sorts to the PD is found in Iain M Banks 'The Culture' series. The Culture is a vast pan human (there are multiple evolutions of human across the galaxy) which itself is a small part of the greater galaxy, and they are led by God like Minds (hyper advanced AI machines), and they actively manipulate less advanced societies to reduce overall suffering on their path to advancement. At each stage of intervention, intensive simulation is done to ensure the intervention is highly likely to have the intended results. Its largely a good series, "Matter" is a personal favourite of mine that happens to deal with this very subject - the books are largely stand alone.
Thanks!
There’s a novel that delves into the incident that resulted in the Omega Directive. It turns out that the ones behind the experiment were Section 31. Kirk is the one who ends up witnessing the disaster and learns of the organization’s existence. He contacts several captains he trusts and tells them what he has learned, even showing them Article 14, Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter
Yeah I enjoyed that book.
Can you imagine the chaos Section 31 would have caused if it was able to prevent warp travel within the Klingon and Romulan Empires?
@@the_once-and-future_king. they’d be happy to do so, even though this might have been Tyler’s Section 31
8:19 it should be noted the Voyager EMH was probably the first to be installed onboard a starship, so at the time the ship left dry docks, that particular Protocol wasn’t even a thing yet, and the Dominion War didn’t happened yet last time Voyager was at DS9. Plus I doubt Starfleet have the time or space to download the Doctor with updated protocols.
The only part of the prune directive that can work, as I see it, is non-interference with pre warp cultures. And even then, it can only work by actively protecting those worlds from outside interference. And in the event of an extinction level hazard, its value fails.
Accurate. But 👍 👍 @ "Prune" directive
@@savage1267 rofl. Auto correct strikes again.
I'm going to leave that in the hopes someone makes a prune directive.
@@thomasjenkins5727 The Prune Directive states QUITE CLEARLY that Ten Forward is never to be out of stock of fresh prune juice whenever Worf is aboard.
@@savage1267 LOL hey! prune juice is a warriors drink. and legit tastey.
and wesley would have ben burger had they followed the Prune Directive the the letter: he got horny and stepped on some flowers.
You forgot about the law that says "don't go over warp 5" which seem to have disappeared from the law books immediately after it was introduced
Voyager was able to exceed that speed because its warp drive was designed to not pollute subspace. Presumably other ships were retrofitted to do the same, and the Enterprise E was built after the Voyager, so it should also have had safe engines. The only caveat there is that the reason for the movable nacelles on the Voyager was to enable it to not pollute subspace, and E did not have that, so maybe they figured out how to make the engines safe without moving the nacelles?
@@dankelsey2583 It was hinted later in other material that was temporary until they found a solution. Because sticking too that forever would have been stupid for the show
@@OhNoTheFace which supports the hypothesis that they figured out how to exceed warp 5 without damaging subspace without moving the nacelles by the time the E was built. Thank you.
That was only in that specific region of space, and other's where similar subspace disturbances would occur.
We only know about Starfleet’s efforts to combat the problem. As Picard says in the episode, some other warp-capable civilizations might abide by it, others not so much. If only half of them care about speed limits, it wouldn’t be enough to solve the problem. I need to rewatch the episode to see where the overexposed area of space was, because if it was deep within Federation space, then all’s good. No other ships from other species who don’t care have any business speeding through there-the Feds patrolling can enforce the restrictions. But if it was outside Federation space, then it’s going to be pretty hard getting others to slow down through that area. Not to mention other areas would start to have subspace problems by the next century, not just that one area.
[nerd rage] Ahem!, you dun goof'd.....Kirk did NOT arm miramanees people, he armed Tyrees people on the planet Neural because the klingons were arming the enemies of Tyrees tribe.[/nerd rage]
Yeah, Miramanee was on the Native American planet, not Tyree's planet.
Actually with the Klingons interfering, it is no longer an internal affair and thus the prime directive does not apply.
Thank you! I was just coming to complain about that.
I heard him say it and thought "no way do my Trek nerds let this one slip by!" Good catch 👏
And also it wasn't the Valiant that crashed on Talos IV. Valiant crossed the barrier at the edge if the galaxy in the next pilot.
SS Columbia crashed on Talos IV.
In the case of #3, it wasn't the fact that Worf and Jadzia were in a romantic relationship. It was the fact that Worf allowed his personal relationship to take priority over a vital mission goal. Had he listened to Dax, the mission would have succeeded, and they would have at least been able to rescur the Dax symbiote.
Hold on. In the first law you said General Order 24 "Federation Law". That is probably "starfleet" laws NOT Federation.
I suggest reviewing the Talos IV episodes. The reason people would not know about the order is that the whole planet is supposed to be a secret. A deal was made (by Captain Pike) with the Talosians that no one would bother them any longer. As for the reason no one died for the transgressions of Spock was not "oh well we like Pike." The Talosians had previously asked Pike to stay on their planet to keep Vina company. So they are happy that he was returned to them, because they had been sad before that Vina would be alone.
The Talosians asked Starfleet not to punish Spock, who would otherwise have accepted his death as the consequence of violating the order. Since the only purpose of the order was to protect the Talosians against exploitation by unscrupulous humans (as a treaty with them), it made sense to comply with this request.
This is what you get if you accept the lies of discovery as canon, mate.
Discovery is in no way canon. Hell they broke the prime directive in the first episode.
Seriously, the reason it doesn't make sense is because Discovery is trash and the writers don't know or care about Star Trek.
This is not just a Discovery thing.
Most of if not all the series have violated the Prime Directive
@@danielland3767 True, but they at least acknowledge that they did. Personally I believe that the writers/producers have very little respect for the mountain of lore that encompasses "Star Trek"
The further we get away from Gene Roddenberry's vision and the writers/producers of TNG , DS9. and Voyager the more this kind of thing will happen.
@@woden3643 what kind of thing?
It took me awhile get where Discovery was going but it is what it is.
I don't have all the lore memorized but I'm more then comfortable with some new things.
I don't think it's moving away from Gene orginal plan, just evolving.
been fallin' down the "trek-rabbit-hole" for some time, and only just now found the most Irish spokesman for a channel ever. This has been lovely.
The next Tuesday joke was pretty good!
Order 34: Then there’s Order 34.124: No officer with false teeth should attempt oral sex in zero gravity.
(No sorry that’s Red Dwarf Space Corps...)😜
And don’t forget order 196156; Any officer caught sniffing the saddle of the exercise bicycle in the women's gym will be discharged without trial! 🤣
In regards to "Protocol 28, Subsection D". It can be argued that that protocol wasn't part of the original EMH programming before they left the Alpha Quadrant. While true, he learned of the protocol when he briefly visited the USS Prometheus (before the events of The Killing Game), it's still possible the protocol was never added. And in fact, given how frequent Voyager did get taken over by hostile aliens, the EMH Mark 1 on Voyager could've simply decided that that was an asinine thing to do (as you rightly pointed out).
Now, to the matter of when Voyager was taken over by the Kazon (events that took place long before the EMH visited the Prometheus), the Doctor had the ability to turn himself off at will, using his "autonomy protocols" which were given to him by Captain Janeway. It thus stands to reason, he didn't have that ability prior to Janeway granting it to him. In fact, in the early days of Voyager's journey, the Doctor would often complain about crewmembers not shutting off his program when they "were done with him".
Or it could simply be that said protocol is for prototype vessels such as the Prometheus. That being said, assuming the Prometheus's EMH quoted protocol exactly (no reason to believe he didn't), why does the "and await rescue" part need to be in there? Let's be honest here. Nobody is rescuing an EMH.
Cool uniform Sean!!! Paint that combadge mate 😂
Makes me think Disco missed a good opportunity to make Omega the cause of the burn
I also thought this is where they were going with it.
Omega particles destroy subspace, not dilithium. It’s an interesting idea though, it could have worked with some tweaking
Glad I wasn’t the only one that thought of this... I actually thought that’s what they were going to do even before the cause of the burn was revealed.. been watching repeats of voyager and when that episode came up thought.. “ah that’s it, that’s what caused the burn”..
I wish you did more video's for TrekCulture. Your calm demeanor is so much more nice to listen to than Adam's or Marcus' fast-pace, hyperactive rambling. I'm sure there's plenty of people who like them, but for me, I prefer your calm talking!
Something I have always wondered about the Prime Directive: diplomatic relations to bring a warp-capable civilization into the Federation is still “interfering in the natural development” of that species. And we know the PD applies to warp-capable civilizations when it comes to things like civil war. But influencing, enticing, etc. to join the organization is not interference? What if 48% of the civilization’s population doesn’t want to be part of the Federation? How is it not interference to negotiate with the 52% who do want to join?
And what if it is more like the 10% in power negotiating with the Fed vs the 90% disenfranchised, as in our own society?
Just as a note, with the Talos IV execution thing, that document seems to list it as a Top Secret thing, so it might not be something generally known.
The Omega Directive seems to be that the directive is what is classified, not the existence of Omega. Basically, with the knowledge being discouraged, it's just a limit about who can pull it to go all out in wrecking whatever group is using it. It also seems that the Romulans, Klingons, and Ferengi all have the same thing as of the Armada games
Odds are if the worf killing Duras thing had happened on DS9 Sisko would have understood slightly better then Picard considering he lost his own wife.
Considering that Sisquo told Worf to kill Gowron I'd agree.
Warf was not barred from command for having a relationship with jadzea. He was barred for disobeying orders and failing the mission when he could have succeeded
If you rewatch the episode with Equinox, it's not "any means necessary", it's "any justifiable means."
Honestly I think that is even worse. That has so much wiggle room you could fly a Defiant Class through it. I mean the whole point is the are more suggestions so I guess its up to the individual captain. I mean justifiable to whom? I really want to get home so I would justify a lot more than most.
I would have to point out the Temporal Prime Directive; really weird law. It was written by those in the future to be imposed on the past so that the future may benefit. Those in the past barely have knowledge of it, didn't vote on it, and yet are punished for breaking it.
Re 4: archer himself also says relations aren’t forbidden
T'Pol and Trip do eventual begin a relationship so clearly that was just an attempt to put her off from sexually assaulting them.
To be honest I feel that General Order 34 is the most ignored rule in Star Trek.
Exactly- if that was in place, Picard (or Riker, can’t quite remember) would’ve had no right to make Ro Laren remove her Bajoran earring.
I think Riker was pulling rank because he didn't like her attitude
What about the temporal prime directive?
That one probably changes all the time.
Sean is a great contributor to TrekCulture. Really enjoy his presentation and voiceover work.
Janeway was pretty hot on the Prime Directive, but she was a lot sketchier when it came to the Temporal Prime Directive.
The Temporal Prime Directive never really existed in Janeways time, so whe was never really bound by it. It only came into existence when the ships that were able to travel through time were created. She only mentioned it after run ins with Captain Braxton of the Relativity who was bound by it since the Relativity was a time ship.
It had been mentioned before in STNG with one of the crew members turning out to be a time traveller.
@@Tryst46 I ♥ Crewman Daniels
The Deep Space Nine could be excused become DS9 is a Bajorian station.
Best part of omega is that the ship gets disabled. Imagine that happens in the middle of a battle, you have to outrun your enemy or you are on an intercept course...and your computer is like "all systems offline, please wake up your captain"...really sucks when you captain is dead and you dont have a Borg refugee aboard...your dead in the water
Except I'd think that, in the event of the death of the captain, the first officer would rise to fill the hole in the table of organization, and the computer would then brief the new captain on it.
10:10 Worf wasn't reprimanded for having sex with Ezri, he was reprimanded for abandoning his mission. Not quite the same thing.
The USS Defiant went back in time into the Mirror Universe. Not forward.
Love how Trek Culture continuously stimulates my brain with these interesting Trek nuggets! Bravo! 👏🏾
Thats purge comment about the Omega directive is a bit of a stretch.
To not interfere would be implicit in multiple civilizations space exploration.
Exactly. Was it actually mentioned in the episode that Sisko was invoking General Order 24 when he poisoned Eddington's planet?
Katherine Janeway violated the prime directive in the pilot of the show when she destroyed that space station that among other things could have sent them back to the Alpha Quadrant. As far as not respecting the culture and rituals of the Klingons, certain exceptions would have to be made, or Worf could kill Captain Picard the moment he perceived him as weak.
Hold up, how is destroying a post-warp tech-level space station a violation of “keep advanced tech out of lower civilizations” & “ don’t get involved in pre-warp cultures” ? :/
There was that one where (Wesley Crusher) was sentenced to die in TNG. Because he broke a law on some planet when he threw a ball and broke something important to those people. Picard somehow saved him. But it was touchy for a while. They made a whole episode of that situation. It must have been huge.
Remember this
Picard was just as bad as Kirk when it came to breaking the prime directive. He just acted more upset when he did it.
I always felt the difference was Picard would admit when he broke the Prime Directive (as in "Justice"), whereas Kirk (and Sisko in "Battlelines") would rationalize how they weren't violating it.
I always got the impression that Picard often was torn between his moral code and Starfleet regulations; he disliked going against "the rules," but did so if he felt morally compelled to do so, with the inevitable second-guessing and guilt that comes along with that.
@@dashcamandy2242 Given how Picard's snotty elitist attitude was willing to condemn the 20th-century cryogenically frozen humans to permanent death because of his superiority complex, I don't buy that he felt guilt.
Random fact. When I was at Rutgers Commander Sisko was a teacher there and a lot of classes were actually taught via teleconference with him in Star Fleet uniform either before of after filming DS9
You should do a list of all the times they just ignore the prime directive.
That would be a Much...Longer...Video!
Agreed. Maybe just the 10 most egregious/damaging times then 😆
With regard to #4, Sisko's objection is not to Worf and Jadzia's relationship per se, it's Worf's allowing it to compromise the mission.
10:16 When Sisko tells Worf that Worf won't get a command of his own, it's not because Worf violated a rule against fraternization. It's because Worf put his personal needs ahead of the mission, and therefore can't be trusted in command. Sisko himself, of course, was married to another Starfleet officer, and still got a command.
It's a great (subtle) contrast to what Picard does in "Lessons," when he sends Lt.Cmdr. Daren, his girlfriend, on a dangerous mission where she might be killed. She lives, but Picard is worried enough about her that he realizes he can't continue the relationship, lest his judgement as the captain be compromised.
I thought Jennifer was a civilian and not in Starfleet?
"Sisko himself, of course, was married to another Starfleet officer"
No, he wasn't. Sisko was married twice, to Jennifer and Kasidy, and neither one was a Starfleet officer.
Little point about the Baku mentioned in the prime directive bit. They exploited a loophole to sanction it, the Baku weren't Pre-warp, they had discovered it and abandoned it, meaning that while they currently didn't use warp, they still knew of it's existence
Hey you forgot the USS Exeter, they all were turned into crystals.
No mention of the law from Turnabout Intruder, which said that women were not allowed to be Captains in Starfleet?
When I first heard that, I figured it was just one of insane Janice Lester's delusions. When I later read that, in fact, Gene Roddenberry (at least, at the time) meant it seriously, I was really surprised.
Yes I agree, it is easily the most ridiculous rule. The only reason it is not mentioned that I can think of, is that it is so out there and clearly retconned in the future series, that it is not necessary to mention it .
@@madspedersen5161 I think if you're looking at the whole history of a long-running tv series, it's worth mentioning such a horrid element of the series that used to be 100% canon.
Omega was one of my favorite Voyager episodes. I really enjoy when they delve into deep science fiction as opposed to action and pew pew. I also enjoyed the original episode with the giant amoeba thing that drained energy and life and was going to split soon. Can't recall the episode name.
I'd say my least favorite trend was the whole mirror universe stuff from DS9. Such boring filler episodes!
I’ve said that if TNG depended too much on time travel, the DS9 depends too much on the Mirror Universe. Regarding Omega, I love 7’s line about “the closest thing to a religious experience.”
I liked mirror on TOS and ENT. But I can see how it can get out of hand / boring / wasted time / distraction from the point / REALLY unrealistic even compared to normal Trek.
Immunity Syndrome, but you probably know that by now!
The Ferangi and their Rules of Acquisition were well thought out and humorous in DS9.
Wait in the one Enterprise episode a school kid asked about relationships, and Archer says there is no rule against it but it would be hard to find privacy.
Crew, not officers in particular
@@LordSluggo The exact quote " 'Is dating allowed on Enterprise?' Well, it's not discouraged, but there isn't a lot of privacy on a starship." In this context, officers are included. No exceptions were given.
@@johnr9816 OK
Great list - keep up the excellent content!
Riker had Ro take off some if her earrings when he first meet her.
Seemed like she could have worn them if it was part of her culture.
Not just Riker, in the Voyager episode "Learning Curve", when Tuvok was addressing the crew members he was giving a crash course of Starfleet rules and regulations to, one of them was a Bajoran and he (Tuvok) had him remove his earring.
Picard lets her wear them.
That really bothered me since Worf got to wear his sash and Troi didn't wear a uniform for most of the show
@@sarahkinsey5434 Put on a proper uniform for god sake and she did and never went back.
@@specie8470 I always sort of thought “she’s a counselor so I guess she doesn’t have to wear a uniform” until that episode. Then I thought, why is she the only one who doesn’t have to
Miramanee was Kirk’s love interest in The Paradise Syndrome, NOT a Private Little War. The female was Nona, the wife of his old friend Tyree
"What is a law?" Welcome to the subject of my dissertation.
This is great. Thanks. I'm surprised no one has done this before.