There's a ton that I couldn't fit into the script that I still want to talk about, but nonetheless: Hope you liked it. If it got you thinking, please, I'd love to hear what thoughts you have! This is my first attempt at something like this, so I'm eager to see what the response is. Thank you again!
I would give every class a slot for grenade, mines and utility(basically everything not the demoman's shields already in the game) type items with stock and unlocks, but make them have better Gas Passer like stats, since the reason the devs did not put grenades in Team Fortress 2 was because Team Fortress Classic had two grenade slots that were basically 2 grenade launchers, that you can use while firing the gun you have active. Even for me that is too much.
@@TheFishBowl300 S'not gonna be the final one, dude. People just spent 10k on a golden frying pan. If they close the servers, they're gonna get a lawsuit unlike any other. So long as people are willing to value the game, they're gonna keep doing stuff with it. That being said, I'll try to pitch it, if I get a chance.
There's an idea that i've had after watching this. What if, if you used the 4th slot, the lunch box items would be less effective like: The Sandvich heals 200 instead of 300 The dalokohs bar give +35 max health instead of +50 And so on... You can still equip the lunch box item as a secondary to have the full effect, but no shotgun. That way heavy wouldnt be too powerful to fight against.
I wouldn't really say he's a defensive class, his range is poor so you typically need to move up pretty aggressively to be in position to do good damage. IMO his role isn't to tank damage or to hold a position, his sole purpose is to melt people at close range, and his big health pool is just there to help him survive for a few more seconds at that range. I fully agree that the Heavy should have a dedicated shotgun slot, but personally I'd only ever use it to defend myself when I'm caught with my pants down, if you're playing offensively then you're almost always better off using a minigun.
It would feel so right to have both sandvich and shotgun available. I'd say it would add a decent amount depth to heavy(not the most unfortunately, but still an absolutely decent chunk).
Very hot take the fact he can have 4 slots is understandable but having a lunchbox and shotgun consider the fact banana and shotgun being able to heal and if a spy catches you off guard you have to melee hime but with a shotgun you can be a threat
Ooh I loveee this I see certain people in the comments talking about how this would make Heavy overpowered and “you can’t possibly think about the ramifications this would cause” I think about it like this, If you explained Soldier’s ability to Rocket Jump to someone if it wasn’t in the game, they’d call you mad and say it’s broken because Soldier is balanced by his slow movement Everyone fails to realize that every class in this game has strong abilities, that make them who they are. Scout’s high mobility allows him to practically avoid all damage at the highest skill level with dodging. Soldier’s high mobility and power at the highest level would have him flying around the map dropping the Medic constantly due to his high damage splash damage rockets Pyro’s high flexibility with his loadouts a lot like Soldier allows them to have a weapon for every situation. His combo weapons allow him to dish out high damage. Did I mention that Pyro can invalidate an UberCharge entirely from a projectile class with his primary stock ability Airblast? Demoman. Oh my god Demoman. This man has two primary weapons and you don’t see anyone screaming at him for it. If the Grenade Launcher and Stickybomb Launcher were in a single slot, even THINKING about allowing them in two slots would send the community into a riot. But this is the way it is, and it is FINE. Stickies could be toned down a little bit but they’re ultimately fine. Engineer despite being able to create such great support and attack power for his team is still able to defend himself fairly well at a high level. He’s great even with Stock. His large Pistol ammo pool gives him a great long ranged pester option to counteract the fact he doesn’t have the speed to always engage in close range combat. And the Gunslinger enhances his close range combat perfectly, creating the most fun I’ve had playing the class. Medic is without a doubt the most powerful class in the game. Not with damage but with support. What he brings to his team sounds INSANE. Short ranged healing, long ranged healing, overheal, invulnerability, GUARANTEED CRITS. If you were to suggest the Medic now everyone would look at you like you were stupid and would say “ooh but he’d stall the game to a crawl” Sniper needs some tuning but I like his design philosophy. He can take out people at a long range but is relatively frail at shorter range. Which is why I want an update around not nerfing him but redesigning him a little bit. Make him fun still without just taking stuff away. Spy is probably the most polarizing class, he is great when you don’t know he exists and he becomes so much harder to play once they know you do. But this is balanced by his surprise attack nature. If he gets the drop on you, you are INSTANTLY gone with little to no counterplay. Forcing you to be on alert. The Spy himself as a concept balances a lot of the game out. What if the Sniper never had to worry about a Spy behind him? It works well, but I suppose an “instant kill backstab” would be overpowered in new eyes too… What I’m saying is to the people who think this would be OP. Give it a chance! Everytime anything new was added into this game people screamed OP because they needed to actually buckle down and learn how to fight something new It’s almost why I don’t look forward to a new weapon update: people complaining and getting something nerfed prematurely with no thought I’ve ALWAYS appreciated buffs more than nerfs. And I feel like this is one of the buffs that the Heavy desperately needs to match up to all of the other classes
I would give every class a slot for grenade, mines and utility(basically everything not the demoman's shields already in the game) type items with stock and unlocks, but make them have better Gas Passer like stats, since the reason the devs did not put grenades in Team Fortress 2 was because Team Fortress Classic had two grenade slots that were basically 2 grenade launchers, that you can use while firing the gun you have active. Even for me that is too much.
@@drivanradosivic1357 i do not want to sound bad But in beta versions of tf2 classes had GRENATES But there is a reason why they didnt gave them. Also demoman is main grenadier so you know... Im not saying you are horriblw wrong or something But practicly your idea was rested out and didnt worked well
@@michajozwiak1361 incorrect. Again, Team Fortress Classic had what are basically grenade launchers of 4 shots each that you can fire with your active gun as their design for their grenade slots. Even for me, this way of using grenades is bad. My suggestion is a new slot 7, where you have to switch to the grenades to use them and you have Gas Passer like stats, meaning no spamming and you actually earn them.
As a heavy main, this would be stupidly overpowered. Corners and sightlines slow heavy's movement, and most things are balanced around that, since you can't just run around corners. If you had 4 slots, you could hold it out while confidently walking around corners. Either someone isn't there, and you can get to the next point faster, or someone is, you get a burst damage shot from the shotgun, take out FoS or GRU to go back around the corner, and rev up your Tomi. Either they charge at you and die, or they are going to try to hold their hall with a chunk of their health gone (which won't work well for them), or they retreat, and you can take the hall. And you can check if they left or stayed every time because you always have the health. You get 150 health every 10 seconds. Any situation where you can see your enemy, you will only play around your minigun if you are trying to win. If you need it explained more than that, you haven't played a lot of tf2 in the past 7 years.
@@jonskillings1258 ...heavy is currently very underpowered, and running a shotgun is still not worth doing when it competes with a lunchbox even with the nerfed mini-gun taking so long to reach full power. I hate to say it but if you're a heavy main you don't have a very good understanding of the class.
With Valve's distant and non-committal attitude to TF2, the one benefit has been the rise of creators who have come up with genuinely simple and effective balance changes, rather than absurd wish-lists. Adding a fourth slot would be such an realistic implementation... praying Heavy gets some love this Summer update.
Now that I hear this new take, I’m pretty sure that this is what the class needed all along. I am a big fan of this concept and I want this in the game.
@@misterionorman9764 *Huh?* Skill? Heavy? BRUH. He does indeed require some skill with ammo management or positioning maybe, but his role is cemented and it’s hard to deviate without being a worse class and without some from of help. There’s a reason why he’s sometimes joked about as a walking sentry (You know, the medic being an engineer and you being the sentry). The skill you have massively depends on how well you communicate, how well you position, and how well you work with your team, not how well you play. You are too predictable to require skill like a scout or a spy does. All you do is rev and shoot at things while keeping your ground and maybe do spy checking. He could use another slot. He doesn’t necessarily *need* it, but I think it would be beneficial. The shotgun doesn’t make him any more OP, as he already rarely uses it due to his role, so I don’t see the problem with adding another slot. You’re free to argue otherwise. I think it’s worth at least a try making him more viable. If he needs to be nerfed, nerf him. If that doesn’t work, go back to how he was before.
@@TeenWithACarrotIDK You notice how most people speaking in favor of the change make better points and generally say more? I also think Heavy would appreciate the extra slot. He won't be able to use it a whole lot, but more options on a class with very limited options who struggles a whole lot in competitive or generally higher skill matches would be great.
If valve decides to make a trailer for the update, i imagine it like all classes going to battle but heavy having the same question sandvich or shotgun.Then the mission starts in ten seconds will sound and heavy still cant decide, then a medic comes and yells "JUST TAKE BOTH!!!" then heavy says "Great idea" and just grabs both weapons and battles with his minigun, shotgun and fists and ends by eating a sandvich
I personally have been thinking alot about heavy recently and i agree he should have another slot. The sandvich is just too darn good. But the shotgun is necessary for people to actually want to play him. I think this will solve it all. And yes. I am the bugs life guy.
This should be tested. In a custom server, One heavy per team. That way, we could see this idea be applicable in most situations. To be honest, I'm not sure how this would affect the usual moment to moment gameplay. Whether or not this would be broken. At least with the tests we could see how well a four slot Heavy would be during a match.
Plus it would make sense because he’s called “heavy weaponS guy”. With an S. Not “heavy weapon guy”. More guns would suit his character a little more. Hes a guy with a lot of weapons. Not just one.
And his design one of his weapons is literally the paws he tore off a grizzly bear and your telling me he carries 3 things with him (2 if it's the fists)
Usually, when people put possible ideas to change the game into the table, I really appreciate them, but imagining them actually being added feels.. Very distant, you know? A HEAVY 4TH SLOT THO- This doesn't only sounds like a great idea. It feels like Heavy was meant to be like this somehow. I love playing Heavy, he's my second favorite class, right behind medic, and from my casual point of view, this would make Heavy a ton more fun to play with
As a heavy main, I really really appreciate you made this video. A 4th slot weapon for heavy is something I've been bitching for a really long time. We're in a phase that fat scout went from being a meme to an actual viable way to play heavy thanks to the family business or the "new" panic attack. So, making the fat scout have the possibility of healing yourself or your teammates would be something really nice to add some diversity to the class like you said. And all this while you can still have the minigun too, of course. When Big joey made his video called "The shotgun Dilemma" (btw, you're so lucky for having a match with him lol), there were a lot of comments about making the shotgun a primary instead of a secondary. An idea I totally disagree with. The shotgun works perfectly as a secondary because it covers a lot of the minigun weaknesses. Besides, having a shotgun instead of a minigun doesn't seem right in the class that is called HEAVY WEAPONS guy. And that's why we need a 4th slot for heavy. Again, thank you for making this video. It's a pity it doesn't have so much views. But I have faith the algorythm of youtube is going to do its job and a lot of people is going to watch this.
As a heavy fan, I really really appreciate you writing this comment! I'm glad to know this isn't just me blowing hot air. I genuinely think some diversity is all this game needs to be back on top; to shake things up again. It's still fun, and the characters are still fun. It just needs to feel new again, ya know? A fresh coat of paint. I aught to watch Joey's video! That sounds interesting; the idea of a shotgun as a primary is something I kind of want to go into, actually. He was also a blast to play with. Though, if I'm being honest, I was nervous the entire game that I wasn't doing Hev justice. While the views aren't where I'd like them to be, I'm glad you got here, at least. And, while I don't mind waiting for the algorithm, I certainly also wouldn't mind if you wanted to share this around. No better advertising than word of mouth, ya know?
@@PO10TIAL a very good concept idea pal, nothing too noticable but not something you should forget either! just like the sapper...ah my beautiful boy you earned it, my sub i mean!
Fantastic video on making Heavy's meta fresh again. I'd love it if the lunchbox slot became a thing, because if the Heavy ever gets that dispenser backpack I'll never stop using it - even if it heals just their teammates and not the user.
Man you made a fantastic argument for this! At first I was skeptical, but as you kept giving reasoning for different play styles, different weapon possibilities, and thinking about how Engineer and Spy have 4th weapon slots, it only makes sense!
This would make Heavy so much more fun to play, and feels like the way the game was meant to be. This should genuinely be considered for the next big update, if it ever comes.
There’s so much more to heavy that no one is mentioning and it’s making me want to do the biggest “uhm aCkThshuaLeh!! 🤓” you’ve ever seen in your life AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
@@cookiecraze1310 in which case he still the weakest, it is easy to know when there is a Spy nearby by a number of facts, and there is no harm in Spychecking, Spy can die accidentaly, no other class suffer so much to get one kill besides Medic. And we are talking about a decent/good team, because every class can noob stomp
Found your video by seeing your reply to a comment saying about Heavy needs a 4th slot. Pretty great video,I never think Heavy needs both the sandvich with the shotgun and think the situations where both of the items would be bad at are just drawbacks of them. However,after watching this,I realize Heavy will be more fun of a class to play if he has a 4th slot.Really hope Valve will think of this
That would be a great change, being the third class that has four slots. But maybe it could broke the balance system and get a nerf after that. By the way, I usually use Family Business with Brass Beast in order to protect myself while finding a good spot to spin-up that slow tihng. Sanvich goes with Tomislav because has better ammo economy, so I don't usually need another weapon.
the brass beast does need some health in order to stay defensive and to stay above the sniper full charge head shot threshold. Although you make a good argument with the tomislav, you cant forget that heavy has damage and accuracy ramp up of a second where else shotguns don't have that caveat.
Why don't you have more subscribers? Seriously, this is pretty good. Edit: Another balance idea, in case the dev team doesn't want to do *this,* would be giving Heavy a passive self-heal like Medic. With it being much more potent to put up with his health bar, but only being available if not using lunchbox items like the Sandvich or Bannana. You *might* be able to have it with the Chocolate Bar or Steak, on account of how crap they are right now, but it would probably be a bit weaker. This would end up buffing everything that isn't the sandwich and banna, without making said items obsolete or making Heavy any more powerful than he already is as a class. It'd need testing, but I can see the regen being about 2-10 HP depending on if he took damage recently.
I’ve always thought this. The lunchbox options just offer more utility and make more sense to run, unfortunately, and I don’t think heavy could ever really be overpowered by being just a little more flexible. I’m glad to see this video getting a lot of attention.
Seriously. Heavy's weaknesses are so massive, I think that even if we have him get two new slots, he'd still be weak. I also am glad this video's getting attention, though it's for slightly more biased reasons, I'm sure.
I want this. It wouldn't even be all that overpowered, and the numbers could be tweaked easily. He wouldn't be the first character to have more than 3 weapon slots, so it's not like this concept is totally earthshaking. This should absolutely be added, and this idea needs more traction.
You and me both, dude! It's been getting more steam behind it (no pun intended), but I would appreciate the hell out of it if you wanted to share the idea around.
@@PO10TIAL Hell yeah, brother, hefty armament person needs some love. He can't have variety, it's just not what an anchor like him is meant for, but we can at least give him versatility.
this was a great video, you touched on a lot of good points. heavy is fun when everything goes right and you're able to absolutely wipe the floor, but it just feels boring. his gameplay loop is essentially the same thing with little to no variation, and the shotgun kinda becomes useless anyway if you're revving at the correct times to ensure you aren't ever defenseless. I love the way you narrate btw, you're so energetic! keep up the good work :)
How in the soviet hell is this so smart? You've got me convinced this practically fixes heavy. (ALSO HOW IS SOMETHING THIS POLISHED YOUR FIRST VIDEO????)
Thank you! I put a lot of effort into this. I think "Fix" is a bit too strong a word, since genuinely, Hev's a blast to play already. I just think this'd let more of his already existing strengths shine. There's no such thing as a bad tool, ya know?
It really does play so heavily into LazyPurple's video on heavy and how one of heavy's biggest movement techniques is to be more daring than the enemy expects. To find yourself around the corner at low health and having the option to either figure out if you have time to heal or to just reposition and catch your pursuer off gaurd with a quick burst of bullets to their face sounds like it would be such a fun dynamic that would completely shift heavy away from being the useless sitting duck he is often portrayed as
It does make sense for heavy to have 4th slot, afterall he already carry a big gun so small gun and a lunchbox should be no problem to him Boi if it is being a reality, i cant imagine how many weapon concept will be there and how fun it will be. _If only..._ Anyway, bloody hell for your first video on youtube this is already a great start. Just hope you not pushing yourself too much making content around tf2
If only, indeed. I appreciate the words of confidence! And while I do plan on doing other games and topics, not just TF2, I've played it for this long, ya know? I've got plenty to say about it, without pushing myself.
Thank you! Uh, kind of? I've done one other project with Sony Vegas before this, but it was mostly just me futzing with the program until I got it to look right. I'm flattered, regardless.
Your point about heavy only being able to tank a few shots reminded me of an idea I once had. The reason the dalokohs bar is a good sidegrade is because it gives heavy more health. The ability to tank one or two more shots. So why not just give him 50-75 more health in general? Boost his healthpool slightly. can't do 100+ health because that'd be insane (his health would be 400), and would boost heavy's overheal to 600 (because the way overheal currently work is just 150% of health).
honestly this would also seperate heavy more from the rest of the merc and actually make him special Scout: like a leaf on a windy day, is able to dodge most damage with ease and packs just enough himself to make crucial eliminations Soldier: Second highest health pool and while initially slow can use his arsenal to boost himself to incredible heights while also carrying a ton of fire power with him Pyro: offensive support combined with great area denial to make him a strong adversary Demoman: an absolute power house of an explosive master with either direct hits, trap laying/spamming, or can fully dedicate himself towards melee to make a absolute pick tank Engineer: incredible support combined with very good automatic area denial allows him either to stay back if defending hard, or to keep up a very strong front line if offensive with his play style Medic: healing combined with immense support in his uber charges and varieties Sniper: phenominal long range damage while also requiring a high skill ceiling spy: can be the weakest class on paper, but a good spy player can harrass larger groups of people and eliminate any outliers from a group with near ease Heavy having a 4th weapon slot- along with his high health pool, CAN be his defining trait, and it being so different would help it being good to actually be a poster boy with. the potential with what could be done could be incredible and change so much. and actually make him on par with all his other comrades.
I love and hate this. Love it because its such a great idea which would make Heavy leagues more useful. Hate it cos the chances of this actually getting through Valve is so low... :(
I believe that there should be a tradeoff for him being able to use his sidearms together ( maybe a primary tool that replaces the mini gun that makes him being able to use both + some extra feature like being faster or something. )
I find myself not playing Heavy for long just cuz of his poor mobility, because this already makes it so that Heavy is reliant on his team to fight alongside him and someone to help handle the Snipers and Spies. Give Heavy the option to run and shoot!
8:55 I will say that there is a reason Valve didn't add grenades. Like, if it's like mad milk or jarate and gives a buff, that'd be nice, but a pure grenade is not a good idea.
Nice video! This is actually a very well thought out idea. I'm kinda dissapointed in myself for not thinking of this first because I like studying the balancing of each class and how their different stats make them good at different things and stuff like that. I'm subscribing, it'd be cool if you made another video talking about the stuff you couldn't in the first.
I'm pretty late for this discussion but I'd like to add an idea. An easy way to add the 4th slot while circumventing the logistics of making the Sandvich a stock weapon would be to make a new lunchbox or consumable item as the stock option, such as the following: Uncle Dane once suggested an ammo version where you regain your Minigun ammo, and here it could also fill the shotgun, while throwing it as a Full Ammo Box. I know that this would be nowhere as poweful as the Sandvich but it serves the purpose of filling the stock item and saving the Sandvich of that trouble, and it could also have its select few uses. Just a thought.
i agree, and since this would have to be a "heavy update", yes i know i hate myself for giving myself hope, you could design much more subclasses for heavy, a primary that focuses more on the shotgun
Homie, don't hate yourself for wanting more for a game you like, let alone Having Hope in general. It's alright to be hopeful that the thing you enjoy will get attention. Bitterness is a bad look, ya know?
@@PO10TIAL id like to imagine a heavy that has a shield for his primary that when "revved" he slows down but has the shield in front of him to block incoming damage, having a good shotgun secondary would give heavy a weapon to use when the shield is not in place, alternatively this oculd be set up differently and we could have maybe a heavy knight, give him a powerful sword that allows him to move a bit faster but when blocking he moves just about as fast as he would've with a revved minigun
10:21 to 12:00 Bro went on a full on emotional speech that actually made me shed a tear.............. 😢Didn't know that a game can be so held so near abd dear to someone's heart, but TF2 did it. I do support hus suggestions though, Heavy deserves a fourth spot
funnily enough i had this exact thought the other day, but you put it into words better than i could have, great video! the sandvich already kind of feels like a stock item in design and standing in the game, the fact that it's the only weapon with a meet the team video, and just how heavily associated it is with the heavy. As far as ideas for what to do with current sandwiches, if you give all currently existing ones vintage quality you'd be devaluing the vintage ones that already exist. there's a shitload of sandvich reskins in the workshop, I could see them just grabbing one of those and being done with it. personally I like the Mann Bun and Chocolate Chip Cookie Party, and the Gingerbread Scout and Mystery Meat would be good options for each of the holiday themes too.
An alternate option I think would be giving heavy something like the soldier's black box as a shotgun. You get health recovery while keeping your shotgun. Obviously this would need a trade-off (perhaps the reduced magazine of the black box or less damage), but it could operate well as a band-aid fix if they for some reason can't do the fourth slot. Either way, this'd make for an amazing heavy update if they did it.
Oh absolutely, I was gonna say the same thing Make a Heavy-exclusive Shotty that heals when you hit, make it heal substantial enough damage that it competes with Sandvich during a firefight Or, better yet, give Heavy's default Secondary taunt the Amputator treatment. All shotties can heal Heavy a little bit when you Taunt, but not so much that it overrides the Lunchbox items
@@emilygordbort7300 While I definitely agree that would be sick, it doesn't eliminate the main issue; Baseline Heavy still lacks repeatable survivability. I wouldn't mind the taunt, but I feel like that'd be weird to get across to new players. People still don't know the Kritzkrieg taunt heals, ya know? I'd rather not say that this gun shared across 4 classes does something minor and specific with just 1 of them. That all being said, I still want a vampire shotgun. I see no reason we can't have both.
@PO10TIAL True, but having just one vampire shotgun would make it either the only alternative to the lunchbox items or not worth using depending on balance Maybe Heavy could get a vampire Minigun with increased switch speed, decreased rev-down time and increased rev-up time that would play well with fat scout? Or maybe something like the Degreaser that fires projectiles instead of bullets, and the projectile makes enemies hit vulnerable to bullets
I think a less complicated way of doing this idea that wouldn't force the devs to mess with existing items is just giving Heavy a NEW stock food item that is different from, but still similar to, the Sandvich. Then you won't need to mess with any existing Sandviches in the game. Like, make it a thermos flask of hot tea/coffee in the shape of a bullet. And maybe it has a bit of a faster animation, but you can't give medkits to allies. Those kinds of stats could work as making it a stock weapon, and you just have to add text to the sandvich items that matches with the ability to give medkits.
110% agree. I already enjoy playing heavy, but this would undoubtedly make him my favorite class. Also the skit at the end with the sandvich and shotgun heavies was really cute.
I always liked the idea of heavy not only having a lunchbox slot, but also a suit of armor for the minigun slot to make him a little more tanky. Fat scout could be a viable way to play.
Part of the issue with this change is that it makes Heavy too self-sustaining. What helps manage his power level in a fight is his slow regeneration time with consumables (even Medic healing takes time to get him to safe levels to fight enemies). Having a reliable healing tool in addition to the Shotguns means you have reliable stream damage, protective burst damage when walking towards/away from a fight, and a self-heal for after any and all fights. That’s a lot more power than any other class has in the game, where map layout and team composition plays a role in how effective they are. Heavy with this change? He’s always going to be able to fight off foes without revving and heal himself while no other class can without unlocks of their own. Maybe not the best idea unless lunchboxes got a nerf across the board.
It'd definitely take some fine tuning, that's for sure, and a nerf to the lunchboxes might be it. Might be interesting to go back to how the Sandvich used to be on launch, only healing 120 HP per use. Ultimately, there's no way to play test this right now, but if I ever figure out how, I'd love to make a follow up. Thanks for the thoughts!
well there's a whole section of the video where he explains why giving the heavy extra ability to self-sustain would actually just bring him up to speed with the other classes, who all have some ability to sustain themselves as part of their stock loadout. obviously we won't know if it's overpowered until it's tried, but do you have any counter to that argument?
Part of that self-sustain is trading one of their weapons for a direct healing tool (Black Box loses a rocket, Cozy Camper ditches the SMG, etc.) There is also a point to be made that basic forms of mobility open the option to retrieve health during a fight, whereas Heavy cannot unless using the Shotguns or meleeing people as you are too slow when revved to reposition quickly. Heavy’s “sustain” aspect of character is having a lot of health and not retreating at the first sign of trouble. (Also sustain in the stock loadouts? Maybe in terms of damage output but not in healing themselves. Heavy’s Minigun already does that, but the commitment time is what opens the option of the Shotgun.) If Heavy had his own healing source in addition to his Shotgun, it would mean he has the same level of fighting power as he does now, which is quite good at the pub level, but now has self-sustain without any trade off that it would typically mean. He’ll always be ready for any fight no matter the circumstance and can heal himself after that fight with needing health packs/Dispensers/Medics. No other class can do that hence why this might not be a good change without some tunings to the lunchboxes.
@@Badface678 except the video doesn't talk about the cozy camper or the black box, it's specifically about the stock loadouts. they talk about the sniper's ability to engage from a longer distance than anyone else which enables him to escape and manage his health, and the soldier's knockback and how that allows you to both delay your opponent and escape if necessary. the heavy does not have anything like that. there's a whole section explaining how every other class gets to use their sustain advantage constantly but the heavy without a lunch box only gets to use his once. the argument is that it should be a part of his stock loadout, and this comparison is specifically made against other classes' stock loadouts. do you have an argument against that?
@@limbus66 To the point that Heavy doesn't have anything like that, he has his health pool and that is a limited resource to be managed. It's part of why proper positioning and timing are skills you practice as Heavy to play him effectively. He is a class designed around having teammates to support him in doing his job as he can't do it all by himself. Just look at how the Sentry Gun operates and where it does its best work, as that is very similar to Heavy in terms of power and usability. To the point about stock loadouts, the Shotgun already compliments his stock loadout pretty well. Melee is melee, so we kind of have to ignore that one as 6 of the other classes have the same thing Heavy does. The Shotgun gives you a tool to use when repositioning and for dueling/chasing opponents where using the Minigun would get you killed. That is what Valve, in terms of designing the class loadouts, intended for Heavy. A self-heal on top of that means Heavy doesn't need his teammates anymore to handle threats for him when he cannot tank. This change means we're covering up intended gaps that enemies can use to deal with him. After this change, Heavy doesn't need Medic healing or an Engineer's help to reach his maximum potential anymore. He just has it outright. That's the problem with doing a 4th slot, especially when there is 0 trade-off for it, unless there is some changes to the lunchboxes themselves. No other class has the ability to deal the most amount of damage possible at multiple different ranges AND still heal themselves, even if their health pool isn't as big as the Heavy's. He's not even that bad of a class to warrant a massive buff like this in the first place either.
I feel like there are just weapons in tf2 that are like the “Can’t beat Goku”’s of weapons. Like “but it’s not the sandvich”, as the video says, or “it’s not the crusaders crossbow”, “it’s not stock scatter”, and (I think user to) “it’s not the degreaser”
the reason i personally disagree with this a bit is 1: Heavy only has One survivability option BECAUSE he has been balanced around the fact be next to a dispenser or medic, receiving some sort of support from the team. why does this matter? because the heavy is Supposed. to be a raw beefcake that can be taken down alone rather easily if caught off guard, but a potent threat with some backup. the highs of heavy are when you have backup, being the head honcho of a little army, if you will. this high moment of gameplay is kind of unique to the class. the low of heavy is where other "frontline" classes thrive, in close quarter, unprepared fights where he does not have the support or time to setup. this is ofc a balanced choice because if heavy was at 100% effectiveness all the time, hed be probably one of the best classes in the game. 2: the sandvich is a SIDE.grade. this may sound a bit dumb to re-iterate at first, but stick with me here. What are the shotgun's strengths?: - close quarter burst - quick switch these strengths enable heavy to have some sort of a backup plan, which you WILLINGLY trade out by taking the sandvich, an item that enhances your frontline/teamplay potential, while hurting your more vulnerable points during downtime. giving heavy both the frontline enhancing sandvich AND the reliable backup plan is honestly way too much. once again, the sandvich IS a choice the player willingly makes.
This would be a quality of life update for the heavy that could change the way the game is played and breathe some new life back into the class. Very fun!
You actually make a really good point about how the strength heavy brings as a class choice is health, and he really has to lose some in order to make use of it. Other classes don't need to sacrifice anything to play their strengths.
alternative idea: you could introduce some kind of water canteen with some kind of health bonus as the stock item and throw the sandvich and lunchbox items into that slot
If you want to add anew shotgun for heavy, why not add a slug based shotgun that has extra damage and accuracy but either slower firing speed, less magazine capacity or both? The minigun can only do so much at long ranges, so why not add an option that gives heavy far ranged viability?
@@stealthbeastgaming I personally think it shouldn’t be a sniper, but rather a slug that doesn’t deal much damage but at mid range can hold its own, just so heavy can retreat while shooting and hold his own without needing to slow down
@@italianbuffoon9953 Nope. Sniper has always been strong at melee range. Valve has always been very clear on their message: Don't try to fight the sniper from a distance, but don't underestimate them in melee range. The counter to sniper is social distancing. Always has been. Jarate+bushwacka doesn't change this. In fact, it just embodies this exact philosophy in a different, more "all-or-nothing" kind of way. Yes, Jarate+wacka means you can 1 shot people, but it also means people who social distance you have no SMG to worry about, which is the range the SMG excels at. Giving a heavy low key sniper power on the otherhand just blatantly falls outside of the lines of the class. He's never had anything like this, he should never have anything like this, and he's probably never going to have something like this. Not to mention, long range hitscan is a questionable mechanic for TF2 at all. Sniper's bad enough for the game, we really really really do not need a fat sniper subclass.
He still wouldnt even be top 5 classes, would be a great change and nothing too broken - he still dominates up close, and gets destroyed by snipers/spys. Great vid
I've had this sort of idea myself for a while now, but I've never been able to justify it quite the way you did: "the sandwich is a core mechanic." Due to the relatively niche use the shotgun provides, choosing it over the sandwhich just handicaps yourself- there's no give or take. The best comparison is with pyro's flare guns and his shotguns- there's reasons to choose the shotguns, and there's reasons to choose the flare guns. Since pyro uses his secondaries a lot for combos, giving him both, while objectively making him better overall, would debatebly take away a lot of people's personal expression in how they play the class and make him staler overall. Heavy is not like this. Heavy uses his secondaries whenever he's forced out of putting away his minigun. There are no substantial gameplay changes between shotgun and sandwhich heavy. He could only benefit from having both. As a side note, something I personally would find awesome, is how it would unintentionally buff Heavy's weaker miniguns such as the brass beast, the huo-long heater and the natascha, which all benefit greatly from the shotgun. Great video, can't wait for more. :)
This is a really good explanation but the best I could come up with at the time was honestly "well technically speaking heavy had more than 3 weapon slots in tfc sooooo"
i think there should be more automatic weapons for heavys primary though, his name is heavy weapons guy so i think he should have more than just miniguns
I really like this but considering TF2's spaghetti code it just seems unlikely. It's one of those things that would have been a really good idea 15 years ago but it's too late now. I think a better solution is to give Heavy an alternate primary that's not a minigun but fulfills the self-heal need of the sandvich so making shotguns more viable.
@@PO10TIAL I don't know how it would or could happen, but I know the game is just too big for nothing to ever happen again. It's not like it's Unreal Tournament, it's not an obscure mostly dead game.
@@Treblaine Here's hoping, right? Like I said in the video, there's still a demand for it. People Want this game to be good. I genuinely just think it's a matter of time. That being said, I don't see why we can't have our cake and shoot people with a gun too. I say, healing primary, shotty, AND a lunchbox. Best of all worlds.
Heavy really sticks out as missing the loadout and gameplay complexities that every other class got over tf2s lifespan. If we could get one last actual update I'd hope it'd be something like this that could redefine the least played class in the game
It's funny. If I had to describe the tone of this video, it would be "theatrical". With the way you're reading the script, I'd be shocked if you're not a theater-kid. Great video :)
Well, there's the "make the want known and wait patiently" approach, which is always a good one. But I also wouldn't mind trying to figure out how to add this as a custom change on a private server, to, at the very least, playtest it.
That is actually a genius idea and practically it just make Heavy less pushover when he need to retreat for a hp refill, also now i`m upset that i got to see this idea just because i like it wery much and most likely we never see that in actual game
@@ondiyaga3298 I mean, ya never know! There are community projects that've implemented it, and it's all pretty smooth there. If and when we DO get that Heavy update... 👀
Heavy deserves a 4th slot His sandvich and shotgun are not like any other 2 types of weapons in the game, Heavy needs both of them to survive. Giving the 4th slot to some other class would be broken absolutely removing the need for a choice of the weapons. Giving sniper both a jarate and smg spot isn't fair since he doesn't rely on either of them to do his main job of standing afar and shooting people, the choice of Jarate and the SMG is whatever the player wants which can be being a support class helping the frontlines survive but not having not much defense options incase someone is close or being able to defend yourself so you can keep picking important classes in exchange for not many support utilities. Heavy NEEDS a sandvich to be able to survive like his fellow classes and making him a better tank, and he NEEDS the shotgun to be able to still fight whenever he's in his most disadvantageous spot which is travelling which can make approaching an unrevved Heavy still a challenge. Both the sandvich and shotgun have the purpose of helping the Heavy survive together and both seem like stock weapons that can help the Heavy's main role of being able to tank damage for his team so he needs both.
This sounds like a really good idea, but because of TF2's spaghetti code I'm sure it would be a NIGHTMARE to implement for a team with little devs as is.
For those who want to diversify the heavy playstyle without waiting for an update like this, and still doing more than just changing from the sandvich to the banana and to the few who say he doesn't do enough damage further than point-blank, I have a strategy that I'm just going to say I might as well have invented since in my 2200 hours of TF2, I have NEVER seen used before. Here's what you'll be using: Brass Beast Chocolate The melee, however, is irrelevant for reasons I will explain shortly Optional, but is horrifically effective in most situations: A Medic using The Quick Fix. Now here's the part with the actual strategy- some of this is considered general advice for playing heavy, but if I included it here then I think it's a bit more important than usual. Okay, lets get into the details. The key to using the Brass Beast, naturally, is choosing the right times to spin up, it takes a good while after all. The problem is that it requires a LOT of prediction, map knowledge, and being able to keep track of all combat-relevant details simultaneously. While effective with practice, this quickly mentally exhausts you which isn't ideal. The solution? Simply keep your gun spun up as much as possible! Just don't be a meathead and be permanently spun up. Instead you should do that mainly in any area that would have a lot of enemy traffic, or if you somehow end up behind enemy lines then watch any possible entrances / exits... I don't recommend attempting a spawncamp without a competent medic on you though as your movement is even more restrictive than normal making any form of retreat practically impossible. This leads beautifully into the most important part of this entire autistic guide: when in combat, ALWAYS ACT LIKE YOU'RE FULL HEALTH AND STAY SPUN UP! This is more valuable the closer you are to the enemy, as the Brass Beast's damage output is just hysterical when at really short ranges. The immense damage potential, combined with the innate damage resistance while spun up, plus the health boost from the chocolate already makes you a damn mini-boss tier dude to go up against. But let's say you manage to pull a pocket medic running The Quick Fix! Then you get the crazy healing rate with more max overheal thanks to the chocolate, AND potentially the knockback immunity from the Ubercharge? At that point you are, to put it lightly, fucking terrifying. When possible, play around ammo packs or dispensers. Don't bother conserving ammo either, if you see an enemy at a reasonable range then light 'em up! On payload maps specifically, you will ideally be constantly moving forward, spun up, with a teammate or two, but a decent distance ahead of the cart. Basically, position like a more passive soldier or demo. Move too far ahead, and you can't fall back to your team and / or the cart for backup before getting obliterated. If sit next to the cart the whole time... well everybody already expects that, and you'll be an easy target for explosives without the ability to match their damage output. Fire for a good several seconds longer than you think you need to, sometimes you'll have to just keep shooting until they retreat or a teammate gets them for you. if engaging with an enemy peeking around corners to take potshots at you from longer ranges than you can reliably deal lethal damage at, and there's no other threats nearby, simply don't worry about it. Unrev and move to somewhere they can't hit you from if possible. I know this was a lot of text which almost nobody will bother to read, but if you did then thank you so, SO much! I hope to one day see what it's like to go against this when done well! And as a little treat for getting to the end, doing this with a Kritz medic is single-handedly capable of wiping entire 12 player teams before most people can even react to before their soul is torn from their body and sent straight to hell.
I used to think I was doing something wrong when I played heavy as a free to play because i thought the sandvich was just some button i had to press when i had my fists out. I had no idea it wasnt stock, and this video shocked me
Wonderful idea. You'd have to take a sliver off his health or (more likely) remove a chunk of his primary ammo to balance this flexibility, but I would love to see this implemented. Since he can carry the massive minigun, it makes sense that he can carry a set of other things too.
If there would be some tweaks to the lunchbox items, I would make the Sandvich and Banana recharge take longer. The Dalokoh's bar and steak can be eaten on the move. if Heavy did get this 4th slot.
I wonder if lunchbox items could be put into the category of action items , it clearly mess with the mvm meta but it would prove as an easy fix for such a idea. Valve might implement that
The first thing that I thought was putting the lunchbox items in the melee slot. After its used, it swaps to the stock fists until the item is charged again. Heavy might be the worst class for melee, so it mostly only uses the gloves for their passive bonuses. I think the choice between gloves and lunch is more interesting and gives more opportunities for the shotgun to shine.
A Compromise: the Lunchbox Slot now works as a sidegrade to the Melee Slot; you can now equip a Melee and a Lunchbox Item together, maybe at the cost of weakening your Melee while your Sandvich is available since you only have one free hand. This would be entirely optional as well
Well, that'd be neat, but you'd have to change how you'd throw the Sammy too, then. If one hand is punch and the other is munch, there's none for lunch. Eh, Launch, I mean.
@@PO10TIAL Actually remembered that part right after writing my comment lol. I guess it‘d have to be a double bind or something, maybe crouch+m2 lets you throw your lunch, with an Option to rebind it to a fourth Mouse button etc. Alternatively you could make throwing Lunch M2 and eating it the Taunt Button; the mechanics are already present in the main game, just need to be implemented
This is probably the most realistic update that could have happened to the heavy. I would say that the only reason why heavy is so bad is that he can either only heal and be the team anchor or have more firepower and less self sustain. His role flexibility suffers greatly because of this, so giving him both would make the heavy a strong class that isnt bound only to the medic or the objective.
If you're going to give the Heavy a fourth slot so that he can have the Shotgun and the Sandvich equipped at the same time, why stop there? Literally EVERY class that has a "generic" secondary like a shotgun or pistol gets the option to unlock a "unique" ability that gives them a class-specific mechanic at the cost of losing a reliable backup source of damage - Scout's Bonk Soda, Sniper's Jarate, Pyro's Flare Gun, Engineer's Wrangler, and Soldier's double-dip with Buff Banner and Gunboats (for brevity's sake, I'm not even mentioning anything that came after the class update era). And very few of these can really be called "balanced" with the generic weapons they replace - they tend to either be the de facto default choice by rite of just being better under most circumstances (like not only the Sandvich but also the Wrangler) or they sit largely unused because they can't make up for the utility you lose in the process (I feel like in competition with both the Shotgun and the Gunboats, the Buff Banner and its relatives go a good deal more unloved than they deserve). Why not turn all of these into four-slot classes as well? There are pros and cons to both approaches - you gain much more utility and options for each individual player with a four-slot model, but a three-slot model lowers the amount of information a new player has to digest when first starting the game, especially when so many of the stock secondaries are shared between multiple classes. A three-slot model also means that, ideally, different players playing the same class can have extremely different capabilities - the unpredictability this creates can be seen as either a good or a bad thing, but I personally enjoy it, and I think I like the three-slot model better than I would enjoy a four-slot model. Of course, you then have to make sure the divergent options are well balanced against each other - as you've indirectly touched on in this video, diversity in theory doesn't mean anything if one of the options is (or is at least regarded as) a clearly superior choice to the other. Something that a lot of people don't think about is that the Sandvich wasn't able to be thrown when it was first released. It was originally solely a self-healing tool designed to enable "roamer" Heavies that could wander off on their own without having to rely on their team for healing, while Heavies that preferred to be more defensive and stick with the herd would keep the shotgun, since the ready access to Medics and Dispensers would render the Sandvich's healing unnecessary. It was the addition of the Sandvich's alt-fire that threw off the balance to how it is today, as well as kind of defeating the original point of the Sandvich - the Sandvich was supposed to make Heavies less reliant on Medics WITHOUT making the already popular Heavy/Medic combos even more powerful. I know the reciprocal support mechanic of throwing Sanviches to Medics to keep them alive and thank them for healing you is a much beloved mechanic, but did it really need to go to the class that was ALREADY infamous for having a Medic stuffed up his butt at all times?
I think medic's crossbow should be given its own slot which is separate from his other syringe guns. That way he could recieve an unlockable for his medigun slot called "the crusader's coat of arms" which is essentially a shield strapped to his back which gives him an extra 25 hp.
![[TF2] the worst weapon for every slot](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ag-A28mEcfA/mqdefault.jpg)
There's a ton that I couldn't fit into the script that I still want to talk about, but nonetheless: Hope you liked it. If it got you thinking, please, I'd love to hear what thoughts you have! This is my first attempt at something like this, so I'm eager to see what the response is. Thank you again!
I would give every class a slot for grenade, mines and utility(basically everything not the demoman's shields already in the game) type items with stock and unlocks, but make them have better Gas Passer like stats, since the reason the devs did not put grenades in Team Fortress 2 was because Team Fortress Classic had two grenade slots that were basically 2 grenade launchers, that you can use while firing the gun you have active. Even for me that is too much.
please pitch this idea to valve for the final update we seem to be receiving.
@@TheFishBowl300 S'not gonna be the final one, dude. People just spent 10k on a golden frying pan. If they close the servers, they're gonna get a lawsuit unlike any other. So long as people are willing to value the game, they're gonna keep doing stuff with it. That being said, I'll try to pitch it, if I get a chance.
There's an idea that i've had after watching this.
What if, if you used the 4th slot, the lunch box items would be less effective like:
The Sandvich heals 200 instead of 300
The dalokohs bar give +35 max health instead of +50
And so on...
You can still equip the lunch box item as a secondary to have the full effect, but no shotgun.
That way heavy wouldnt be too powerful to fight against.
I grew up with this game bro
Honestly it does make more sense for the heavy weapons guy to be loaded with guns
Right? It's Weapons, plural, not Weapon
I agree. After all, Demoman gets two primaries
He's a big guy, he can carry moar guns. It fits so well.
Add a extra secondary slot, thats all u need
no tbh
This is such a unique take on buffing Heavy. Surprised this doesn't have more recognition!
Yeah i bever saw that idea
This would be kinda busted
Honestly I would love this
and the algoritim has blessed thsi vid
@@lemono5954 Heavy is so damn predictable and has such direct counterplay that I think overtuning him is kind of fine.
This would increase his role more instead of being only a defensive class.
Right? It's crazy how much could change from just this little thing.
I wouldn't really say he's a defensive class, his range is poor so you typically need to move up pretty aggressively to be in position to do good damage. IMO his role isn't to tank damage or to hold a position, his sole purpose is to melt people at close range, and his big health pool is just there to help him survive for a few more seconds at that range.
I fully agree that the Heavy should have a dedicated shotgun slot, but personally I'd only ever use it to defend myself when I'm caught with my pants down, if you're playing offensively then you're almost always better off using a minigun.
@@Smashface_McBourbondickhis role is arwa denial
@@k90v85 IMO other classes are better in that role
He will keep being a defensive class regardless
This is the *fire crackle noise* hhhhottest of takes. You got me convinced immediately that this would breathe new life into the hoovy
Thank you! I appreciate that a ton. I feel like TF2 in general, let alone Heavy, has so much breath still in it, ya know? Just needs a little push.
woah its tumblr mcgee
It would feel so right to have both sandvich and shotgun available. I'd say it would add a decent amount depth to heavy(not the most unfortunately, but still an absolutely decent chunk).
why are you here
Very hot take the fact he can have 4 slots is understandable but having a lunchbox and shotgun consider the fact banana and shotgun being able to heal and if a spy catches you off guard you have to melee hime but with a shotgun you can be a threat
Fun Fact:
In "Meet The Scout" BLU Heavy has Sandvich AND stock shotgun
*IT WAS INTENDED ALL ALONG, BUT HEY THATS JUST A THEORY A GA-*
@@Poja_0811 a gay theory?
@@commissardaniel9500 idk you tell me bro it's up to interpretation
@@commissardaniel9500 a gamble theory.
@@HL2conscript A gasoline theory?
Ooh I loveee this
I see certain people in the comments talking about how this would make Heavy overpowered and “you can’t possibly think about the ramifications this would cause”
I think about it like this, If you explained Soldier’s ability to Rocket Jump to someone if it wasn’t in the game, they’d call you mad and say it’s broken because Soldier is balanced by his slow movement
Everyone fails to realize that every class in this game has strong abilities, that make them who they are. Scout’s high mobility allows him to practically avoid all damage at the highest skill level with dodging.
Soldier’s high mobility and power at the highest level would have him flying around the map dropping the Medic constantly due to his high damage splash damage rockets
Pyro’s high flexibility with his loadouts a lot like Soldier allows them to have a weapon for every situation. His combo weapons allow him to dish out high damage. Did I mention that Pyro can invalidate an UberCharge entirely from a projectile class with his primary stock ability Airblast?
Demoman. Oh my god Demoman. This man has two primary weapons and you don’t see anyone screaming at him for it. If the Grenade Launcher and Stickybomb Launcher were in a single slot, even THINKING about allowing them in two slots would send the community into a riot. But this is the way it is, and it is FINE. Stickies could be toned down a little bit but they’re ultimately fine.
Engineer despite being able to create such great support and attack power for his team is still able to defend himself fairly well at a high level. He’s great even with Stock. His large Pistol ammo pool gives him a great long ranged pester option to counteract the fact he doesn’t have the speed to always engage in close range combat. And the Gunslinger enhances his close range combat perfectly, creating the most fun I’ve had playing the class.
Medic is without a doubt the most powerful class in the game. Not with damage but with support. What he brings to his team sounds INSANE. Short ranged healing, long ranged healing, overheal, invulnerability, GUARANTEED CRITS. If you were to suggest the Medic now everyone would look at you like you were stupid and would say “ooh but he’d stall the game to a crawl”
Sniper needs some tuning but I like his design philosophy. He can take out people at a long range but is relatively frail at shorter range. Which is why I want an update around not nerfing him but redesigning him a little bit. Make him fun still without just taking stuff away.
Spy is probably the most polarizing class, he is great when you don’t know he exists and he becomes so much harder to play once they know you do. But this is balanced by his surprise attack nature. If he gets the drop on you, you are INSTANTLY gone with little to no counterplay. Forcing you to be on alert. The Spy himself as a concept balances a lot of the game out. What if the Sniper never had to worry about a Spy behind him? It works well, but I suppose an “instant kill backstab” would be overpowered in new eyes too…
What I’m saying is to the people who think this would be OP.
Give it a chance! Everytime anything new was added into this game people screamed OP because they needed to actually buckle down and learn how to fight something new
It’s almost why I don’t look forward to a new weapon update: people complaining and getting something nerfed prematurely with no thought
I’ve ALWAYS appreciated buffs more than nerfs. And I feel like this is one of the buffs that the Heavy desperately needs to match up to all of the other classes
yea yea like somebody gona read through all of it
@@jefffeliciano1285 idk man 21 people did, you’re not obligated to :p
I would give every class a slot for grenade, mines and utility(basically everything not the demoman's shields already in the game) type items with stock and unlocks, but make them have better Gas Passer like stats, since the reason the devs did not put grenades in Team Fortress 2 was because Team Fortress Classic had two grenade slots that were basically 2 grenade launchers, that you can use while firing the gun you have active. Even for me that is too much.
@@drivanradosivic1357 i do not want to sound bad But in beta versions of tf2 classes had GRENATES But there is a reason why they didnt gave them. Also demoman is main grenadier so you know... Im not saying you are horriblw wrong or something But practicly your idea was rested out and didnt worked well
@@michajozwiak1361 incorrect. Again, Team Fortress Classic had what are basically grenade launchers of 4 shots each that you can fire with your active gun as their design for their grenade slots. Even for me, this way of using grenades is bad.
My suggestion is a new slot 7, where you have to switch to the grenades to use them and you have Gas Passer like stats, meaning no spamming and you actually earn them.
And here I thought I was the only one who thought a lunchbox slot was the only logical solution.
You know, I'm also happy to see that I'm not the only one in this world who had this idea.
We are few but we are not alone
Same
As a heavy main, this would be stupidly overpowered. Corners and sightlines slow heavy's movement, and most things are balanced around that, since you can't just run around corners. If you had 4 slots, you could hold it out while confidently walking around corners. Either someone isn't there, and you can get to the next point faster, or someone is, you get a burst damage shot from the shotgun, take out FoS or GRU to go back around the corner, and rev up your Tomi. Either they charge at you and die, or they are going to try to hold their hall with a chunk of their health gone (which won't work well for them), or they retreat, and you can take the hall. And you can check if they left or stayed every time because you always have the health. You get 150 health every 10 seconds.
Any situation where you can see your enemy, you will only play around your minigun if you are trying to win.
If you need it explained more than that, you haven't played a lot of tf2 in the past 7 years.
@@jonskillings1258 ...heavy is currently very underpowered, and running a shotgun is still not worth doing when it competes with a lunchbox even with the nerfed mini-gun taking so long to reach full power. I hate to say it but if you're a heavy main you don't have a very good understanding of the class.
With Valve's distant and non-committal attitude to TF2, the one benefit has been the rise of creators who have come up with genuinely simple and effective balance changes, rather than absurd wish-lists. Adding a fourth slot would be such an realistic implementation... praying Heavy gets some love this Summer update.
Wishlists are fun, but it's about working Smarter, not Harder, ya know? Appreciate the appreciation!
This comment aged poorly because this didn’t happen
Sadly didnt happend
Aaaaaand its Halloween already RIP
@@C0DY420 :(
Now that I hear this new take, I’m pretty sure that this is what the class needed all along. I am a big fan of this concept and I want this in the game.
You and me both
The class never needed a fourth slot it required skill dude
@@misterionorman9764 *Huh?* Skill? Heavy? BRUH. He does indeed require some skill with ammo management or positioning maybe, but his role is cemented and it’s hard to deviate without being a worse class and without some from of help. There’s a reason why he’s sometimes joked about as a walking sentry (You know, the medic being an engineer and you being the sentry).
The skill you have massively depends on how well you communicate, how well you position, and how well you work with your team, not how well you play. You are too predictable to require skill like a scout or a spy does. All you do is rev and shoot at things while keeping your ground and maybe do spy checking. He could use another slot. He doesn’t necessarily *need* it, but I think it would be beneficial. The shotgun doesn’t make him any more OP, as he already rarely uses it due to his role, so I don’t see the problem with adding another slot. You’re free to argue otherwise. I think it’s worth at least a try making him more viable. If he needs to be nerfed, nerf him. If that doesn’t work, go back to how he was before.
@@TeenWithACarrotIDK
You notice how most people speaking in favor of the change make better points and generally say more?
I also think Heavy would appreciate the extra slot. He won't be able to use it a whole lot, but more options on a class with very limited options who struggles a whole lot in competitive or generally higher skill matches would be great.
THE HEAVY UPDATE WE DESERVE! I love these ideas
I'm still holding out hope for that update, whenever it drops!
@@PO10TIAL BRO
@@simic0racle157he has hope and dreams, he has a big hoovy heart
The heavy update: Heavy's heart
If valve decides to make a trailer for the update, i imagine it like all classes going to battle but heavy having the same question sandvich or shotgun.Then the mission starts in ten seconds will sound and heavy still cant decide, then a medic comes and yells "JUST TAKE BOTH!!!" then heavy says "Great idea" and just grabs both weapons and battles with his minigun, shotgun and fists and ends by eating a sandvich
if
I personally have been thinking alot about heavy recently and i agree he should have another slot. The sandvich is just too darn good. But the shotgun is necessary for people to actually want to play him. I think this will solve it all. And yes. I am the bugs life guy.
You are! I appreciate both comments!
Not only that, but Heavy can be seen with a sandvich and a shotgun during Meet The Scout
This should be tested. In a custom server, One heavy per team. That way, we could see this idea be applicable in most situations. To be honest, I'm not sure how this would affect the usual moment to moment gameplay. Whether or not this would be broken. At least with the tests we could see how well a four slot Heavy would be during a match.
Plus it would make sense because he’s called “heavy weaponS guy”. With an S. Not “heavy weapon guy”.
More guns would suit his character a little more. Hes a guy with a lot of weapons. Not just one.
he is kinda big and strong he could carry more firepower
And his design one of his weapons is literally the paws he tore off a grizzly bear and your telling me he carries 3 things with him (2 if it's the fists)
yeah the family business and the brass beast
Usually, when people put possible ideas to change the game into the table, I really appreciate them, but imagining them actually being added feels.. Very distant, you know?
A HEAVY 4TH SLOT THO- This doesn't only sounds like a great idea. It feels like Heavy was meant to be like this somehow. I love playing Heavy, he's my second favorite class, right behind medic, and from my casual point of view, this would make Heavy a ton more fun to play with
As a heavy main, I really really appreciate you made this video. A 4th slot weapon for heavy is something I've been bitching for a really long time.
We're in a phase that fat scout went from being a meme to an actual viable way to play heavy thanks to the family business or the "new" panic attack. So, making the fat scout have the possibility of healing yourself or your teammates would be something really nice to add some diversity to the class like you said. And all this while you can still have the minigun too, of course.
When Big joey made his video called "The shotgun Dilemma" (btw, you're so lucky for having a match with him lol), there were a lot of comments about making the shotgun a primary instead of a secondary. An idea I totally disagree with. The shotgun works perfectly as a secondary because it covers a lot of the minigun weaknesses. Besides, having a shotgun instead of a minigun doesn't seem right in the class that is called HEAVY WEAPONS guy. And that's why we need a 4th slot for heavy. Again, thank you for making this video. It's a pity it doesn't have so much views. But I have faith the algorythm of youtube is going to do its job and a lot of people is going to watch this.
As a heavy fan, I really really appreciate you writing this comment! I'm glad to know this isn't just me blowing hot air. I genuinely think some diversity is all this game needs to be back on top; to shake things up again. It's still fun, and the characters are still fun. It just needs to feel new again, ya know? A fresh coat of paint.
I aught to watch Joey's video! That sounds interesting; the idea of a shotgun as a primary is something I kind of want to go into, actually. He was also a blast to play with. Though, if I'm being honest, I was nervous the entire game that I wasn't doing Hev justice.
While the views aren't where I'd like them to be, I'm glad you got here, at least. And, while I don't mind waiting for the algorithm, I certainly also wouldn't mind if you wanted to share this around. No better advertising than word of mouth, ya know?
@@PO10TIAL yeah sure, I'll spread the word!
as a heavy main, you don't like playing heavy if you want this
@@ShakerSilverlast 2 heavy mains alive boutta have a debate...
@@PO10TIAL a very good concept idea pal, nothing too noticable but not something you should forget either!
just like the sapper...ah my beautiful boy
you earned it, my sub i mean!
Fantastic video on making Heavy's meta fresh again. I'd love it if the lunchbox slot became a thing, because if the Heavy ever gets that dispenser backpack I'll never stop using it - even if it heals just their teammates and not the user.
Right? It opens up that design space so much!
Man you made a fantastic argument for this! At first I was skeptical, but as you kept giving reasoning for different play styles, different weapon possibilities, and thinking about how Engineer and Spy have 4th weapon slots, it only makes sense!
This would make Heavy so much more fun to play, and feels like the way the game was meant to be. This should genuinely be considered for the next big update, if it ever comes.
We got an update on the horizon! Might just be more elf hats, but might be somethin' big! Here's hoping, though.
@@PO10TIAL I'm hopeful :D
@@bell404 You and me both, Bell! You and me both.
There’s so much more to heavy that no one is mentioning and it’s making me want to do the biggest “uhm aCkThshuaLeh!! 🤓” you’ve ever seen in your life
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
I LOVE this idea. Do it like Spy where the lunchbox is item 4 and suddenly Heavy isn't the weakest class anymore
Heavy isn't the weakest class by any means, he just has one big flaw, and no real way to improve your skill very far.
The weakest is the Spy :p
@@leonel392 not really, if you can trickstab really well you can dominate the entire enemy team
@@JoeyGames123 not really, because to trickstab you need to get close, and guess what? They have guns
@@cookiecraze1310 in which case he still the weakest, it is easy to know when there is a Spy nearby by a number of facts, and there is no harm in Spychecking, Spy can die accidentaly, no other class suffer so much to get one kill besides Medic. And we are talking about a decent/good team, because every class can noob stomp
Found your video by seeing your reply to a comment saying about Heavy needs a 4th slot.
Pretty great video,I never think Heavy needs both the sandvich with the shotgun and think the situations where both of the items would be bad at are just drawbacks of them.
However,after watching this,I realize Heavy will be more fun of a class to play if he has a 4th slot.Really hope Valve will think of this
That would be a great change, being the third class that has four slots. But maybe it could broke the balance system and get a nerf after that. By the way, I usually use Family Business with Brass Beast in order to protect myself while finding a good spot to spin-up that slow tihng. Sanvich goes with Tomislav because has better ammo economy, so I don't usually need another weapon.
the brass beast does need some health in order to stay defensive and to stay above the sniper full charge head shot threshold. Although you make a good argument with the tomislav, you cant forget that heavy has damage and accuracy ramp up of a second where else shotguns don't have that caveat.
Why don't you have more subscribers? Seriously, this is pretty good.
Edit: Another balance idea, in case the dev team doesn't want to do *this,* would be giving Heavy a passive self-heal like Medic. With it being much more potent to put up with his health bar, but only being available if not using lunchbox items like the Sandvich or Bannana.
You *might* be able to have it with the Chocolate Bar or Steak, on account of how crap they are right now, but it would probably be a bit weaker.
This would end up buffing everything that isn't the sandwich and banna, without making said items obsolete or making Heavy any more powerful than he already is as a class.
It'd need testing, but I can see the regen being about 2-10 HP depending on if he took damage recently.
Y'know, there's this certain Red Button that you can press that would help solve that issue~
@@PO10TIAL MEDIC!
I’ve always thought this. The lunchbox options just offer more utility and make more sense to run, unfortunately, and I don’t think heavy could ever really be overpowered by being just a little more flexible. I’m glad to see this video getting a lot of attention.
Seriously. Heavy's weaknesses are so massive, I think that even if we have him get two new slots, he'd still be weak.
I also am glad this video's getting attention, though it's for slightly more biased reasons, I'm sure.
I want this. It wouldn't even be all that overpowered, and the numbers could be tweaked easily. He wouldn't be the first character to have more than 3 weapon slots, so it's not like this concept is totally earthshaking. This should absolutely be added, and this idea needs more traction.
You and me both, dude! It's been getting more steam behind it (no pun intended), but I would appreciate the hell out of it if you wanted to share the idea around.
@@PO10TIAL Hell yeah, brother, hefty armament person needs some love. He can't have variety, it's just not what an anchor like him is meant for, but we can at least give him versatility.
this was a great video, you touched on a lot of good points. heavy is fun when everything goes right and you're able to absolutely wipe the floor, but it just feels boring. his gameplay loop is essentially the same thing with little to no variation, and the shotgun kinda becomes useless anyway if you're revving at the correct times to ensure you aren't ever defenseless. I love the way you narrate btw, you're so energetic! keep up the good work :)
How in the soviet hell is this so smart? You've got me convinced this practically fixes heavy. (ALSO HOW IS SOMETHING THIS POLISHED YOUR FIRST VIDEO????)
Thank you! I put a lot of effort into this. I think "Fix" is a bit too strong a word, since genuinely, Hev's a blast to play already. I just think this'd let more of his already existing strengths shine. There's no such thing as a bad tool, ya know?
Surprised I've never heard this take, it makes a ton of sense. Heavy desperately needs some kind of buff to skill expression
I mean the guy is basically called "Heavy Weapons Guy"
Key word here is weapons and heavy
_More weapons + massive health_
I love how well you put this video together! Keep it going, man!
It really does play so heavily into LazyPurple's video on heavy and how one of heavy's biggest movement techniques is to be more daring than the enemy expects. To find yourself around the corner at low health and having the option to either figure out if you have time to heal or to just reposition and catch your pursuer off gaurd with a quick burst of bullets to their face sounds like it would be such a fun dynamic that would completely shift heavy away from being the useless sitting duck he is often portrayed as
It does make sense for heavy to have 4th slot, afterall he already carry a big gun so small gun and a lunchbox should be no problem to him
Boi if it is being a reality, i cant imagine how many weapon concept will be there and how fun it will be. _If only..._
Anyway, bloody hell for your first video on youtube this is already a great start. Just hope you not pushing yourself too much making content around tf2
If only, indeed. I appreciate the words of confidence! And while I do plan on doing other games and topics, not just TF2, I've played it for this long, ya know? I've got plenty to say about it, without pushing myself.
Hell yeah he does. The editing seemed pretty solid for a first video, you have prior experience?
Thank you! Uh, kind of? I've done one other project with Sony Vegas before this, but it was mostly just me futzing with the program until I got it to look right. I'm flattered, regardless.
Your point about heavy only being able to tank a few shots reminded me of an idea I once had.
The reason the dalokohs bar is a good sidegrade is because it gives heavy more health. The ability to tank one or two more shots. So why not just give him 50-75 more health in general? Boost his healthpool slightly. can't do 100+ health because that'd be insane (his health would be 400), and would boost heavy's overheal to 600 (because the way overheal currently work is just 150% of health).
honestly this would also seperate heavy more from the rest of the merc and actually make him special
Scout: like a leaf on a windy day, is able to dodge most damage with ease and packs just enough himself to make crucial eliminations
Soldier: Second highest health pool and while initially slow can use his arsenal to boost himself to incredible heights while also carrying a ton of fire power with him
Pyro: offensive support combined with great area denial to make him a strong adversary
Demoman: an absolute power house of an explosive master with either direct hits, trap laying/spamming, or can fully dedicate himself towards melee to make a absolute pick tank
Engineer: incredible support combined with very good automatic area denial allows him either to stay back if defending hard, or to keep up a very strong front line if offensive with his play style
Medic: healing combined with immense support in his uber charges and varieties
Sniper: phenominal long range damage while also requiring a high skill ceiling
spy: can be the weakest class on paper, but a good spy player can harrass larger groups of people and eliminate any outliers from a group with near ease
Heavy having a 4th weapon slot- along with his high health pool, CAN be his defining trait, and it being so different would help it being good to actually be a poster boy with. the potential with what could be done could be incredible and change so much. and actually make him on par with all his other comrades.
With Spy, I think you should add that harassment is the main objective with Spy. You use him to cause paranoia and reduce frontline effectiveness.
Dude you bloody killed it. Keep it up mate.
I love and hate this.
Love it because its such a great idea which would make Heavy leagues more useful.
Hate it cos the chances of this actually getting through Valve is so low... :(
Thank you for giving us yet another great idea for the Heavy Update.
I believe that there should be a tradeoff for him being able to use his sidearms together ( maybe a primary tool that replaces the mini gun that makes him being able to use both + some extra feature like being faster or something. )
The guy calling out the spy engie sounded like an in-game NPC or voiceline you’d find in a Call of Duty mission or something
The ending to the video was really sweet, I needed that wish to have a good day, so I appreciate it! I hope you have a good day too potential !
I find myself not playing Heavy for long just cuz of his poor mobility, because this already makes it so that Heavy is reliant on his team to fight alongside him and someone to help handle the Snipers and Spies.
Give Heavy the option to run and shoot!
Run and gun, gamer!
8:55 I will say that there is a reason Valve didn't add grenades. Like, if it's like mad milk or jarate and gives a buff, that'd be nice, but a pure grenade is not a good idea.
Nice video! This is actually a very well thought out idea. I'm kinda dissapointed in myself for not thinking of this first because I like studying the balancing of each class and how their different stats make them good at different things and stuff like that. I'm subscribing, it'd be cool if you made another video talking about the stuff you couldn't in the first.
I'm pretty late for this discussion but I'd like to add an idea.
An easy way to add the 4th slot while circumventing the logistics of making the Sandvich a stock weapon would be to make a new lunchbox or consumable item as the stock option, such as the following: Uncle Dane once suggested an ammo version where you regain your Minigun ammo, and here it could also fill the shotgun, while throwing it as a Full Ammo Box. I know that this would be nowhere as poweful as the Sandvich but it serves the purpose of filling the stock item and saving the Sandvich of that trouble, and it could also have its select few uses. Just a thought.
i agree, and since this would have to be a "heavy update", yes i know i hate myself for giving myself hope, you could design much more subclasses for heavy, a primary that focuses more on the shotgun
Homie, don't hate yourself for wanting more for a game you like, let alone Having Hope in general. It's alright to be hopeful that the thing you enjoy will get attention. Bitterness is a bad look, ya know?
@@PO10TIAL id like to imagine a heavy that has a shield for his primary that when "revved" he slows down but has the shield in front of him to block incoming damage, having a good shotgun secondary would give heavy a weapon to use when the shield is not in place, alternatively this oculd be set up differently and we could have maybe a heavy knight, give him a powerful sword that allows him to move a bit faster but when blocking he moves just about as fast as he would've with a revved minigun
10:21 to 12:00 Bro went on a full on emotional speech that actually made me shed a tear.............. 😢Didn't know that a game can be so held so near abd dear to someone's heart, but TF2 did it. I do support hus suggestions though, Heavy deserves a fourth spot
funnily enough i had this exact thought the other day, but you put it into words better than i could have, great video! the sandvich already kind of feels like a stock item in design and standing in the game, the fact that it's the only weapon with a meet the team video, and just how heavily associated it is with the heavy. As far as ideas for what to do with current sandwiches, if you give all currently existing ones vintage quality you'd be devaluing the vintage ones that already exist. there's a shitload of sandvich reskins in the workshop, I could see them just grabbing one of those and being done with it. personally I like the Mann Bun and Chocolate Chip Cookie Party, and the Gingerbread Scout and Mystery Meat would be good options for each of the holiday themes too.
Ooh, the Mystery Meat would be perfect for the moldy thing I mentioned! These are all good, I really aught to look at the Workshop more.
An alternate option I think would be giving heavy something like the soldier's black box as a shotgun. You get health recovery while keeping your shotgun. Obviously this would need a trade-off (perhaps the reduced magazine of the black box or less damage), but it could operate well as a band-aid fix if they for some reason can't do the fourth slot.
Either way, this'd make for an amazing heavy update if they did it.
Oh absolutely, I was gonna say the same thing
Make a Heavy-exclusive Shotty that heals when you hit, make it heal substantial enough damage that it competes with Sandvich during a firefight
Or, better yet, give Heavy's default Secondary taunt the Amputator treatment. All shotties can heal Heavy a little bit when you Taunt, but not so much that it overrides the Lunchbox items
@@emilygordbort7300 While I definitely agree that would be sick, it doesn't eliminate the main issue; Baseline Heavy still lacks repeatable survivability. I wouldn't mind the taunt, but I feel like that'd be weird to get across to new players. People still don't know the Kritzkrieg taunt heals, ya know? I'd rather not say that this gun shared across 4 classes does something minor and specific with just 1 of them.
That all being said, I still want a vampire shotgun. I see no reason we can't have both.
@PO10TIAL True, but having just one vampire shotgun would make it either the only alternative to the lunchbox items or not worth using depending on balance
Maybe Heavy could get a vampire Minigun with increased switch speed, decreased rev-down time and increased rev-up time that would play well with fat scout?
Or maybe something like the Degreaser that fires projectiles instead of bullets, and the projectile makes enemies hit vulnerable to bullets
Man Ive been wanting this for so damn long
8:38 I just love how he starts going absolutely mental when thinking of new items heavy could use.
Wow this guy has potential, i wonder what his youtube channel is called
nuclear take.
You said it! You made the joke! Hell yeah!
I think a less complicated way of doing this idea that wouldn't force the devs to mess with existing items is just giving Heavy a NEW stock food item that is different from, but still similar to, the Sandvich.
Then you won't need to mess with any existing Sandviches in the game.
Like, make it a thermos flask of hot tea/coffee in the shape of a bullet. And maybe it has a bit of a faster animation, but you can't give medkits to allies. Those kinds of stats could work as making it a stock weapon, and you just have to add text to the sandvich items that matches with the ability to give medkits.
110% agree. I already enjoy playing heavy, but this would undoubtedly make him my favorite class.
Also the skit at the end with the sandvich and shotgun heavies was really cute.
I'm really happy with how that came out.
I always liked the idea of heavy not only having a lunchbox slot, but also a suit of armor for the minigun slot to make him a little more tanky. Fat scout could be a viable way to play.
Them doodles are adorable.
Also, nuclear take.
This video was amazingly well-made! I've never heard of this concept before but I totally agree with it!
Glad to have you on board!
Part of the issue with this change is that it makes Heavy too self-sustaining. What helps manage his power level in a fight is his slow regeneration time with consumables (even Medic healing takes time to get him to safe levels to fight enemies).
Having a reliable healing tool in addition to the Shotguns means you have reliable stream damage, protective burst damage when walking towards/away from a fight, and a self-heal for after any and all fights. That’s a lot more power than any other class has in the game, where map layout and team composition plays a role in how effective they are. Heavy with this change? He’s always going to be able to fight off foes without revving and heal himself while no other class can without unlocks of their own.
Maybe not the best idea unless lunchboxes got a nerf across the board.
It'd definitely take some fine tuning, that's for sure, and a nerf to the lunchboxes might be it. Might be interesting to go back to how the Sandvich used to be on launch, only healing 120 HP per use. Ultimately, there's no way to play test this right now, but if I ever figure out how, I'd love to make a follow up. Thanks for the thoughts!
well there's a whole section of the video where he explains why giving the heavy extra ability to self-sustain would actually just bring him up to speed with the other classes, who all have some ability to sustain themselves as part of their stock loadout. obviously we won't know if it's overpowered until it's tried, but do you have any counter to that argument?
Part of that self-sustain is trading one of their weapons for a direct healing tool (Black Box loses a rocket, Cozy Camper ditches the SMG, etc.) There is also a point to be made that basic forms of mobility open the option to retrieve health during a fight, whereas Heavy cannot unless using the Shotguns or meleeing people as you are too slow when revved to reposition quickly. Heavy’s “sustain” aspect of character is having a lot of health and not retreating at the first sign of trouble. (Also sustain in the stock loadouts? Maybe in terms of damage output but not in healing themselves. Heavy’s Minigun already does that, but the commitment time is what opens the option of the Shotgun.)
If Heavy had his own healing source in addition to his Shotgun, it would mean he has the same level of fighting power as he does now, which is quite good at the pub level, but now has self-sustain without any trade off that it would typically mean. He’ll always be ready for any fight no matter the circumstance and can heal himself after that fight with needing health packs/Dispensers/Medics. No other class can do that hence why this might not be a good change without some tunings to the lunchboxes.
@@Badface678 except the video doesn't talk about the cozy camper or the black box, it's specifically about the stock loadouts. they talk about the sniper's ability to engage from a longer distance than anyone else which enables him to escape and manage his health, and the soldier's knockback and how that allows you to both delay your opponent and escape if necessary. the heavy does not have anything like that. there's a whole section explaining how every other class gets to use their sustain advantage constantly but the heavy without a lunch box only gets to use his once. the argument is that it should be a part of his stock loadout, and this comparison is specifically made against other classes' stock loadouts. do you have an argument against that?
@@limbus66
To the point that Heavy doesn't have anything like that, he has his health pool and that is a limited resource to be managed. It's part of why proper positioning and timing are skills you practice as Heavy to play him effectively. He is a class designed around having teammates to support him in doing his job as he can't do it all by himself. Just look at how the Sentry Gun operates and where it does its best work, as that is very similar to Heavy in terms of power and usability.
To the point about stock loadouts, the Shotgun already compliments his stock loadout pretty well. Melee is melee, so we kind of have to ignore that one as 6 of the other classes have the same thing Heavy does. The Shotgun gives you a tool to use when repositioning and for dueling/chasing opponents where using the Minigun would get you killed. That is what Valve, in terms of designing the class loadouts, intended for Heavy. A self-heal on top of that means Heavy doesn't need his teammates anymore to handle threats for him when he cannot tank. This change means we're covering up intended gaps that enemies can use to deal with him.
After this change, Heavy doesn't need Medic healing or an Engineer's help to reach his maximum potential anymore. He just has it outright. That's the problem with doing a 4th slot, especially when there is 0 trade-off for it, unless there is some changes to the lunchboxes themselves. No other class has the ability to deal the most amount of damage possible at multiple different ranges AND still heal themselves, even if their health pool isn't as big as the Heavy's. He's not even that bad of a class to warrant a massive buff like this in the first place either.
It made perfect sense the moment I saw the thumbnail
I feel like there are just weapons in tf2 that are like the “Can’t beat Goku”’s of weapons. Like “but it’s not the sandvich”, as the video says, or “it’s not the crusaders crossbow”, “it’s not stock scatter”, and (I think user to) “it’s not the degreaser”
That is a Really Good Way to phrase it.
the reason i personally disagree with this a bit is
1: Heavy only has One survivability option BECAUSE he has been balanced around the fact be next to a dispenser or medic, receiving some sort of support from the team.
why does this matter? because the heavy is Supposed. to be a raw beefcake that can be taken down alone rather easily if caught off guard, but a potent threat with some backup.
the highs of heavy are when you have backup, being the head honcho of a little army, if you will. this high moment of gameplay is kind of unique to the class.
the low of heavy is where other "frontline" classes thrive, in close quarter, unprepared fights where he does not have the support or time to setup. this is ofc a balanced choice because if heavy was at 100% effectiveness all the time, hed be probably one of the best classes in the game.
2: the sandvich is a SIDE.grade. this may sound a bit dumb to re-iterate at first, but stick with me here.
What are the shotgun's strengths?:
- close quarter burst
- quick switch
these strengths enable heavy to have some sort of a backup plan, which you WILLINGLY trade out by taking the sandvich, an item that enhances your frontline/teamplay potential, while hurting your more vulnerable points during downtime.
giving heavy both the frontline enhancing sandvich AND the reliable backup plan is honestly way too much. once again, the sandvich IS a choice the player willingly makes.
This would be a quality of life update for the heavy that could change the way the game is played and breathe some new life back into the class. Very fun!
You actually make a really good point about how the strength heavy brings as a class choice is health, and he really has to lose some in order to make use of it. Other classes don't need to sacrifice anything to play their strengths.
alternative idea: you could introduce some kind of water canteen with some kind of health bonus as the stock item and throw the sandvich and lunchbox items into that slot
One year later and this is still a great idea
I would've liked to say that TF2's changed so much, such that this idea got outdated. But, obviously not.
@@PO10TIAL (sad music starts playing) Yeah...
If you want to add anew shotgun for heavy, why not add a slug based shotgun that has extra damage and accuracy but either slower firing speed, less magazine capacity or both? The minigun can only do so much at long ranges, so why not add an option that gives heavy far ranged viability?
Fat Sniper
He's not supposed to be good at far range. It's one of his counters.
@@stealthbeastgaming I personally think it shouldn’t be a sniper, but rather a slug that doesn’t deal much damage but at mid range can hold its own, just so heavy can retreat while shooting and hold his own without needing to slow down
@@stealthbeastgaming then sniper shouldn't have jarate + bushwacka or a stock melee for that matter. give him a weaker melee like with scout and spy
@@italianbuffoon9953 Nope. Sniper has always been strong at melee range.
Valve has always been very clear on their message: Don't try to fight the sniper from a distance, but don't underestimate them in melee range. The counter to sniper is social distancing. Always has been. Jarate+bushwacka doesn't change this.
In fact, it just embodies this exact philosophy in a different, more "all-or-nothing" kind of way. Yes, Jarate+wacka means you can 1 shot people, but it also means people who social distance you have no SMG to worry about, which is the range the SMG excels at.
Giving a heavy low key sniper power on the otherhand just blatantly falls outside of the lines of the class. He's never had anything like this, he should never have anything like this, and he's probably never going to have something like this. Not to mention, long range hitscan is a questionable mechanic for TF2 at all. Sniper's bad enough for the game, we really really really do not need a fat sniper subclass.
He still wouldnt even be top 5 classes, would be a great change and nothing too broken - he still dominates up close, and gets destroyed by snipers/spys. Great vid
I've had this sort of idea myself for a while now, but I've never been able to justify it quite the way you did: "the sandwich is a core mechanic." Due to the relatively niche use the shotgun provides, choosing it over the sandwhich just handicaps yourself- there's no give or take. The best comparison is with pyro's flare guns and his shotguns- there's reasons to choose the shotguns, and there's reasons to choose the flare guns. Since pyro uses his secondaries a lot for combos, giving him both, while objectively making him better overall, would debatebly take away a lot of people's personal expression in how they play the class and make him staler overall. Heavy is not like this. Heavy uses his secondaries whenever he's forced out of putting away his minigun. There are no substantial gameplay changes between shotgun and sandwhich heavy. He could only benefit from having both.
As a side note, something I personally would find awesome, is how it would unintentionally buff Heavy's weaker miniguns such as the brass beast, the huo-long heater and the natascha, which all benefit greatly from the shotgun. Great video, can't wait for more. :)
This is a really good explanation but the best I could come up with at the time was honestly "well technically speaking heavy had more than 3 weapon slots in tfc sooooo"
Gotta ask Shounic to make this a thing to see how it'd affect the game.
i think there should be more automatic weapons for heavys primary though, his name is heavy weapons guy so i think he should have more than just miniguns
Chain guns and LMGs are also good iteads.
Your videos are so awesome dude you are a breath of fresh air in the tf2 yt videos
Appreciate that a ton!
I really like this but considering TF2's spaghetti code it just seems unlikely. It's one of those things that would have been a really good idea 15 years ago but it's too late now.
I think a better solution is to give Heavy an alternate primary that's not a minigun but fulfills the self-heal need of the sandvich so making shotguns more viable.
Honestly mate, at this point, I feel like asking the TFteam for any kind of update seems unlikely.
@@PO10TIAL I don't know how it would or could happen, but I know the game is just too big for nothing to ever happen again. It's not like it's Unreal Tournament, it's not an obscure mostly dead game.
@@Treblaine Here's hoping, right? Like I said in the video, there's still a demand for it. People Want this game to be good. I genuinely just think it's a matter of time.
That being said, I don't see why we can't have our cake and shoot people with a gun too. I say, healing primary, shotty, AND a lunchbox. Best of all worlds.
Heavy really sticks out as missing the loadout and gameplay complexities that every other class got over tf2s lifespan. If we could get one last actual update I'd hope it'd be something like this that could redefine the least played class in the game
11:43
That nod felt so real and heartwarming, It could tell the whole story of TF2 in one second
I shed a tear to this.
It's funny. If I had to describe the tone of this video, it would be "theatrical". With the way you're reading the script, I'd be shocked if you're not a theater-kid. Great video :)
Y'don't have to call me out like this, man.
You have me sold with your elevator pitch, how do we get this added?
Well, there's the "make the want known and wait patiently" approach, which is always a good one. But I also wouldn't mind trying to figure out how to add this as a custom change on a private server, to, at the very least, playtest it.
That is actually a genius idea and practically it just make Heavy less pushover when he need to retreat for a hp refill, also now i`m upset that i got to see this idea just because i like it wery much and most likely we never see that in actual game
@@ondiyaga3298 I mean, ya never know! There are community projects that've implemented it, and it's all pretty smooth there. If and when we DO get that Heavy update... 👀
Heavy deserves a 4th slot
His sandvich and shotgun are not like any other 2 types of weapons in the game, Heavy needs both of them to survive.
Giving the 4th slot to some other class would be broken absolutely removing the need for a choice of the weapons. Giving sniper both a jarate and smg spot isn't fair since he doesn't rely on either of them to do his main job of standing afar and shooting people, the choice of Jarate and the SMG is whatever the player wants which can be being a support class helping the frontlines survive but not having not much defense options incase someone is close or being able to defend yourself so you can keep picking important classes in exchange for not many support utilities.
Heavy NEEDS a sandvich to be able to survive like his fellow classes and making him a better tank, and he NEEDS the shotgun to be able to still fight whenever he's in his most disadvantageous spot which is travelling which can make approaching an unrevved Heavy still a challenge. Both the sandvich and shotgun have the purpose of helping the Heavy survive together and both seem like stock weapons that can help the Heavy's main role of being able to tank damage for his team so he needs both.
This sounds like a really good idea, but because of TF2's spaghetti code I'm sure it would be a NIGHTMARE to implement for a team with little devs as is.
Ya know, the folks I've talked to who know this kinda thing say it's relatively simple. Just takes a little bitta doing.
For those who want to diversify the heavy playstyle without waiting for an update like this, and still doing more than just changing from the sandvich to the banana and to the few who say he doesn't do enough damage further than point-blank, I have a strategy that I'm just going to say I might as well have invented since in my 2200 hours of TF2, I have NEVER seen used before.
Here's what you'll be using:
Brass Beast
Chocolate
The melee, however, is irrelevant for reasons I will explain shortly
Optional, but is horrifically effective in most situations: A Medic using The Quick Fix.
Now here's the part with the actual strategy- some of this is considered general advice for playing heavy, but if I included it here then I think it's a bit more important than usual. Okay, lets get into the details.
The key to using the Brass Beast, naturally, is choosing the right times to spin up, it takes a good while after all. The problem is that it requires a LOT of prediction, map knowledge, and being able to keep track of all combat-relevant details simultaneously. While effective with practice, this quickly mentally exhausts you which isn't ideal. The solution? Simply keep your gun spun up as much as possible! Just don't be a meathead and be permanently spun up. Instead you should do that mainly in any area that would have a lot of enemy traffic, or if you somehow end up behind enemy lines then watch any possible entrances / exits... I don't recommend attempting a spawncamp without a competent medic on you though as your movement is even more restrictive than normal making any form of retreat practically impossible.
This leads beautifully into the most important part of this entire autistic guide: when in combat, ALWAYS ACT LIKE YOU'RE FULL HEALTH AND STAY SPUN UP! This is more valuable the closer you are to the enemy, as the Brass Beast's damage output is just hysterical when at really short ranges.
The immense damage potential, combined with the innate damage resistance while spun up, plus the health boost from the chocolate already makes you a damn mini-boss tier dude to go up against. But let's say you manage to pull a pocket medic running The Quick Fix! Then you get the crazy healing rate with more max overheal thanks to the chocolate, AND potentially the knockback immunity from the Ubercharge? At that point you are, to put it lightly, fucking terrifying.
When possible, play around ammo packs or dispensers. Don't bother conserving ammo either, if you see an enemy at a reasonable range then light 'em up! On payload maps specifically, you will ideally be constantly moving forward, spun up, with a teammate or two, but a decent distance ahead of the cart. Basically, position like a more passive soldier or demo. Move too far ahead, and you can't fall back to your team and / or the cart for backup before getting obliterated. If sit next to the cart the whole time... well everybody already expects that, and you'll be an easy target for explosives without the ability to match their damage output.
Fire for a good several seconds longer than you think you need to, sometimes you'll have to just keep shooting until they retreat or a teammate gets them for you. if engaging with an enemy peeking around corners to take potshots at you from longer ranges than you can reliably deal lethal damage at, and there's no other threats nearby, simply don't worry about it. Unrev and move to somewhere they can't hit you from if possible.
I know this was a lot of text which almost nobody will bother to read, but if you did then thank you so, SO much! I hope to one day see what it's like to go against this when done well! And as a little treat for getting to the end, doing this with a Kritz medic is single-handedly capable of wiping entire 12 player teams before most people can even react to before their soul is torn from their body and sent straight to hell.
The shotgun has atleast one good use on 2fort; if you taunt with the shotgun, they will killbind.
VERY true.
why does the spy have 70 hp at 0:01
That's the Kunai's passive, mate.
@@PO10TIAL ah ok
Absolutely love this idea. Particularly with one lunchbox replacement concept I've seen- just a giant deployable ammo box, for yourself or allies.
In meet the scout the heavy is eating a sandvich while holding his shotgun which proves its canon for him to have both
TRUE THOUGH
@@PO10TIAL yeah lmao and spy has a fourth slot too, potential?????
I used to think I was doing something wrong when I played heavy as a free to play because i thought the sandvich was just some button i had to press when i had my fists out.
I had no idea it wasnt stock, and this video shocked me
Right?? It's the only weapon that Got It's Own "Meet The" Video. Why is it not stock.
I love this video
Dude, me too!
@@PO10TIALnice
Wonderful idea.
You'd have to take a sliver off his health or (more likely) remove a chunk of his primary ammo to balance this flexibility, but I would love to see this implemented. Since he can carry the massive minigun, it makes sense that he can carry a set of other things too.
I like your buffalo steak sandvich idea.
Would be really cool crit cola for fat scout
If there would be some tweaks to the lunchbox items, I would make the Sandvich and Banana recharge take longer. The Dalokoh's bar and steak can be eaten on the move. if Heavy did get this 4th slot.
I wonder if lunchbox items could be put into the category of action items , it clearly mess with the mvm meta but it would prove as an easy fix for such a idea.
Valve might implement that
Ooh! At the very least, this would prolly be a good way to playtest it.
The first thing that I thought was putting the lunchbox items in the melee slot. After its used, it swaps to the stock fists until the item is charged again.
Heavy might be the worst class for melee, so it mostly only uses the gloves for their passive bonuses. I think the choice between gloves and lunch is more interesting and gives more opportunities for the shotgun to shine.
Perhaps
You strike me as the kind of person who would play a Paladin in DnD, unsure why.
A Compromise: the Lunchbox Slot now works as a sidegrade to the Melee Slot; you can now equip a Melee and a Lunchbox Item together, maybe at the cost of weakening your Melee while your Sandvich is available since you only have one free hand. This would be entirely optional as well
Well, that'd be neat, but you'd have to change how you'd throw the Sammy too, then. If one hand is punch and the other is munch, there's none for lunch. Eh, Launch, I mean.
@@PO10TIAL Actually remembered that part right after writing my comment lol. I guess it‘d have to be a double bind or something, maybe crouch+m2 lets you throw your lunch, with an Option to rebind it to a fourth Mouse button etc. Alternatively you could make throwing Lunch M2 and eating it the Taunt Button; the mechanics are already present in the main game, just need to be implemented
I agree 100%
The disconnect between your comment and your name is making my head spin. Thank you.
This is probably the best heavy balancing video ive seen. In general your very good with balancing
I think we finally did it guys
We found the most underrated tf2 youtuber in 2022
This is probably the most realistic update that could have happened to the heavy.
I would say that the only reason why heavy is so bad is that he can either only heal and be the team anchor or have more firepower and less self sustain. His role flexibility suffers greatly because of this, so giving him both would make the heavy a strong class that isnt bound only to the medic or the objective.
If you're going to give the Heavy a fourth slot so that he can have the Shotgun and the Sandvich equipped at the same time, why stop there? Literally EVERY class that has a "generic" secondary like a shotgun or pistol gets the option to unlock a "unique" ability that gives them a class-specific mechanic at the cost of losing a reliable backup source of damage - Scout's Bonk Soda, Sniper's Jarate, Pyro's Flare Gun, Engineer's Wrangler, and Soldier's double-dip with Buff Banner and Gunboats (for brevity's sake, I'm not even mentioning anything that came after the class update era). And very few of these can really be called "balanced" with the generic weapons they replace - they tend to either be the de facto default choice by rite of just being better under most circumstances (like not only the Sandvich but also the Wrangler) or they sit largely unused because they can't make up for the utility you lose in the process (I feel like in competition with both the Shotgun and the Gunboats, the Buff Banner and its relatives go a good deal more unloved than they deserve). Why not turn all of these into four-slot classes as well? There are pros and cons to both approaches - you gain much more utility and options for each individual player with a four-slot model, but a three-slot model lowers the amount of information a new player has to digest when first starting the game, especially when so many of the stock secondaries are shared between multiple classes. A three-slot model also means that, ideally, different players playing the same class can have extremely different capabilities - the unpredictability this creates can be seen as either a good or a bad thing, but I personally enjoy it, and I think I like the three-slot model better than I would enjoy a four-slot model. Of course, you then have to make sure the divergent options are well balanced against each other - as you've indirectly touched on in this video, diversity in theory doesn't mean anything if one of the options is (or is at least regarded as) a clearly superior choice to the other.
Something that a lot of people don't think about is that the Sandvich wasn't able to be thrown when it was first released. It was originally solely a self-healing tool designed to enable "roamer" Heavies that could wander off on their own without having to rely on their team for healing, while Heavies that preferred to be more defensive and stick with the herd would keep the shotgun, since the ready access to Medics and Dispensers would render the Sandvich's healing unnecessary. It was the addition of the Sandvich's alt-fire that threw off the balance to how it is today, as well as kind of defeating the original point of the Sandvich - the Sandvich was supposed to make Heavies less reliant on Medics WITHOUT making the already popular Heavy/Medic combos even more powerful. I know the reciprocal support mechanic of throwing Sanviches to Medics to keep them alive and thank them for healing you is a much beloved mechanic, but did it really need to go to the class that was ALREADY infamous for having a Medic stuffed up his butt at all times?
I think medic's crossbow should be given its own slot which is separate from his other syringe guns.
That way he could recieve an unlockable for his medigun slot called "the crusader's coat of arms" which is essentially a shield strapped to his back which gives him an extra 25 hp.
The heavy in the enemy team going 70:3 with his pocket B**** agree to this video.