Hey guys, I'm aware of the sound artifacts in this video. My mic is really bad so I have to use Audacity's noise suppression filter aggressively, else 30% of what you hear is a hissing noise. The filter however can't really do much for noises that are close to my voice in frequency so there's random artifacts here and there. I'm going to try a variety of filters for the next video so hopefully it's better / there's less cackling / weird noises, but anyone who has experience filtering out static / mic noise in Audacity feel free to offer any advice you might have! There's been 2-3 comments about it now so just so you know I am indeed aware of it, no need to be rude :p
@@maeschder it is always baffling to me to hear people being this confidently wrong. I can upload the original audio and you will hear no such noises there, except for constant mic static. The crackles are leftover peaks after an Audacity noise reduction filter pass which were too close to my voice's frequency.
I've watched other seal twisting videos and they were off-putting and discouraging from how they explained it. After watching this I've turned a 180 and looking forward to trying it out. Thanks for including the weakaura dude you got a new sub
Hey thank you very much! Have had this channel for a while, don't really use it all that much though so I guess not a whole lot for people to sub over :P
To this day, your guide was very useful. Thank you! I had to rewatch it a few times to understand (I'm a slow learner) what I'm supposed to do but, I got the basis of it down. Now I just need to practice, practice, practice until it becomes second nature. 👍
You have fun with your ret? I dont know what i am doing wrong, but my ret experience is really disappointing. Maybe this will help me to find the fun in this pathetic class...
@@Meetmountain how is it exploiting if blizzard made the conscious decision to keep it in the game? However seal twisting seems far more engaging than the 1button rota for lock and hunter
Never really played a paladin much in OG vanilla, I knew seal twisting was a thing and want to learn it for my freshly minted TBC pally. This is the first video/tutorial where it actually clicked and made sense. Thank you.
Glad to hear my video was helpful! I know getting the hang of twisting can be pretty overwhelming, especially since there's a lot of bad or overcomplicated information out there. That's why I made my video :P
I have been considering boosting a paladin as my main alt and I've been looking into twisting quite a bit. This video is the best one I've watched! Great job dude! Thank you for the video!
just started playing ret a couple weeks ago, finally had a proper group in a kara last night with an enh + feral, pushing out 1200+dps on every boss with my decked out ret sure felt good. can't wait to get nether vortex to upgrade my sword again. This video helped alot for me to understand seal twisting, thanks!
Geared-to-the-teeth holy paladin here... Lost our ret paladin to an overseas move (lucky guy, moving to Ireland), so I decided to respec to play around. Your explanation was simple to understand, and your WeakAura gave it a visual component that is super nice. The ret paladin was in a different Kara team, so when Gorehowl dropped, I took it rather than see it sharded - now I have a use for it (and got the Hammer from Maulgar last night, to boot - seems to be on par with Gorehowl, with a nice chuck of INT for sustain). My only problem is being too glued to the swing timer and missing CS when it comes off CD.
Glad to know the video was helpful to you man :) If you're human the hammer is a lot stronger than Gorehowl, if you're not human Gorehowl is a small bit stronger than the hammer. You get used to twisting with time and you don't have to look at the swing timer as much after a while :)
@@ShadowTasos Only one further question: after twisting, is it a priority to set up another twist (switch back to Command ASAP), or wait to judge Martyr, then set up the next twist?
@@CVSopranothere's no definitive answer to that, it depends on the context. If your CS is ready or about to be ready, you just CS an swing with SoB, then twist in the next swing. If you have a whole bunch of haste, let's say because of heroism, you can do 2 twists in a row by switching to command manually and then CS with SoB on the 3rd twist. Judgement is just not too important. Under normal circumstances I'll do twist -> CS and swing with SoB -> judge and SoC to prepare for twist, but as I explained in depends hugely on the current game state and can vary wildly based on your attack speed.
I'm having to stop the video every 15 seconds or so to stop and think about how this works but your video is the first one that made me actually understand it. Just stop the video, read what he wrote, look at your abilities and put it together, it's not terribly difficult once you understand it and learn how fast your weapon is. Thanks for the good explanation in layman's terms. I need some good macros to help with this now.
This is insane. I was able to finally get weak auras to work and tried out sealtwist. I am a lvl 61 human ret paladin. I been seal twisting lvl 1 seal of crusader into command, but when I tried seal of righteousness into command I been seeing insane damage. Righteousness procs off of the command damage as well and I see one white damage and three yellow. Can't wait to try this with seal of blood or matyr.
tl:dr have seal of command (rank1) active in the time after! the green line in his weakaura. in that time (the small window of .4 seconds) switch to seal of blood. use judgement ONLY on seal of blood! use any other spell at max. 1.6 seconds before your swingtimer is completed, simply because of the GCD of 1.5s hence going for 2s might be the better option for many players due to lag or so. always do seal twist > CS, hence if CS comes up 1.4s before your swingtimer is completed, ignore CS for that duration
Hey man, thank you for the kind words :) stay tuned for more TBC ret content. A lot of it will be PvP though, like my Classic PvP stuff. Also planning to stream!
@@ShadowTasos Thats great news! I am really looking forward to PVP in TBC. While a played a ton of PVP in all WOW exansions I will play Ret for the first time in TBC :)
@@skizzikwow7061 You're in for a treat, I think it's really fun :D Has its downsides but it plays really differently to most other specs and I really enjoy it
I don't remember where I read it, nor do I remember the reason why, but there was (supposedly) a downside to macroing judgement and seals together. Something to do with the GCD screwing with the macro and/or rotation for some reason. While probably not noticeable to the average player...the try-hard players who want to push the limits absolutely do not do this.
@@romel420 I actually do this all the time. It's the opposite of what you're saying. It saves a GCD because SoC is not on the GCD. So I open SotC, judge macro with Soc rank 1, time, twist new seal, CS, judge, etc
Hey bud, and thanks for a great tut. I have another weakaura for RetPally with rotations etc. It has a Swing timer, but not that green bar at 0.4s. How do you add it?
You can twist SoC -> Seal of Righteousness and in fact it works even better than SoB because you can twist both ways (SoC > SoR and SoR > SoC) which makes it a lot easier!
very good guide, even if i dont need it. there is not enough ret content out for tbc. many ppl will be shocked to see a well played rets dps. many will be in shame to ret. every test so far didnt include proper twisting in dps stats.
Hey dude, thanks a lot for your kind words! Yes, most people are underestimating ret after its poor performance in Classic, they will be very surprised in TBC :D
It certainly can be, it increases our burst ceiling very significantly. However even on private servers that had twisting enabled, ret wasn't exactly a tier 1 spec because it has a lot of weaknesses and burst never really was lacking.
How to manage the mana with all these seal twists? Isn't it going to deplete too early into a long bossfight? What are the best ways to keep up your mana in TBC?
Yeah mana management will be tough, twisting is mana intensive. As I mention in the video, you want to use rank 1 Seal of Command always. You also want to use Dark Runes on cooldown for mana regen, and make sure Judgement of Wisdom is up at all times. Then if you get too low on mana, you stop twisting for a bit, you just auto attack with SoB and use CS on cooldown.
First off, amazing video! Very detailed and easily explained, and the weakaura is aweosome! One question I have I am seeing an issue with sometimes and didn't see described in this video. In times where you have a haste proc from mongoose, hero, trinkets, and whatever else, when the swing time is shorter than the gcd to be able to twist what would be your recommendation as to what needs to be done in that time in place of not quite having the time to twist?
Hey man! I'm glad you found the video useful. I am not quite sure as to what you're trying to ask because unless you're using a 1H weapon it's pretty much impossible for your swing timer to be faster than your GCD (1.5 sec). The big haste modifiers (Heroism, Drums) also give you spell haste, which reduces your GCD as well, so your swing timer will always be slower than the GCD. If you're asking about what you should do in high haste situations, the answer is stop using filler spells (Consecrate, Exorcism) as you won't have time for them, and focus more on twisting by manually switching to SoC rather than waiting to judge SoB first. Your objective doesn't change, you twist on as many seals as possible while minimizing how much you delay your CS. Hope I understood your question!
would you make a short vid explaining how to custom the bar you are using to time the auto attack please? im stuck trying with weak auras, need help. Nice vid btw
@@ShadowTasos Seal twisting, seems to spend a lot of mana for questionable gains. Frankly it's unclear how well it would work during hero cause that's basically the only time I'd think it's smart to use it. When you hero and dump your mana fast, could seal twist instead of spamming cons, it consumes similar mana after all. Also I think this is a horrible idea for noobs. How about if your guild sucks and you have 5-8-10 minute boss fights? Try to pull this off every swing and you won't last 3 minutes.
@@Akirilus Ret paladins in general kind of struggle for mana in TBC. Twisting uses a comparable amount of mana to your regular rotation due to consecrate's mana cost. You treat the mana issues the same way you would with the regular rotation: when you're close to running out of mana, you just stop using certain mana intensive abilities and fall back to SotM + Crusader Strike. Dark Runes will also be very important for sustain.
@@ShadowTasos Maybe, I did say I'd try it, but still feels sketchy, obv atm I can only try it on retail with SOR which in fact yealds a big dps increase when command procs, when command procs... cause sometimes it doesn't prock for 5 times in a row, 51 mana for rank 1 plus the mana for SOR, well at least consecration does some dmg in this time, me switching between these without a proc does not, let's not forget that it makes judgements a bit awkward to use.
@@Akirilus It definitely makes Judgement pretty awkward to use! Consecration is very strong right now because of its 95% spell power coefficient and all the spell power we have on our gear. And while SoR is good, it's not as good as SoB. So twisting right now is kinda awkward, it's still a DPS boost but not a huge one so it's not a big deal. In TBC however we lose all of our spell power except for JotC and IDS, which isn't all that much, so Consecration becomes a lot weaker. And we also gain SoB. So there's fewer reasons not to twist.
What I like to do is have a stopattack macrod with SoC, and startattack macrod with SoB. This way if the gcd doesn't quite reset before the swing timer ends, it's no big deal
!!! As I mention in the video it is a big deal! Depending on how long you delay your swing there (and even a very small amount like 50-100 ms is enough) you actually lose DPS compared to auto attacking with SoB on. Never ever delay your swings!
3:58 Do you mean by swinging only white hit or also cs? since i heared sob procs on cs aswell... 4:18 not even pvp with soj or hoj or rep? if not (since idk if it procc the extra stun/incap dmg) what about if twoway twising was implemented? is soj even worth it even in pvp iyo outside of joj? can you go further into detail when stopattack is good? even in pvp i can only see a super niche use to prevent the enemy using something because of a potential big dmg procc before you stun and idk if youd even ever do that insead of fishing for justice stuns (idk if justice is even worth it since its a lot of overall dps loss for a slightly little bigger oneshot bang with that as intro) but i might be dumb missing something obvious
Great video! Got two questions: 1. is it worth to have a startattack macro? (prefight SoB and then... /startattack & /cast SoC as a bind? will that do SoB damage + white damage and switch to SoC at the very start of the attack?) -> also, if true, after that do you do Crusader Strike & twist to SoB at the end of the first timer? 2. for longer fights, where does judgement of crusader come into play? When do you judge it?
Hey! First of all you always do SoC first, SoB second! For twisting to work you must start with SoC then switch to SoB just before you twist. You cannot twist SoB -> SoC. 1. Yeah having a /startattack /cast Seal of Blood macro in general is good, both in PvE and PvP. You don't really need it in PvE, as there's only 1 time when you use it (fight start, as you said) and you can do it with any other /startattack macro, but it doesn't h urt either. After a twist start, you can use CS then SoC into SoB, but only if your weapon speed is 3.1 or slower! 2. I'd recommend just judging it at the start really, it's okay if you miss 1 twist so you can get Judgement of the Crusader up. Judge crusader, switch to blood, auto attack, CS, then SoC into a SoB twist just before your swing.
Hey Thank you so much for making this video breaking down the rotation, any chance you could provide some in game content using seal twisting while pvping, killing mobs, ect just to see the rotation in real time when you are playing
Heya! I will probably be streaming part of my leveling journey on my twitch stream (link in the description) and I'll very likely be uploading arena / raid footage here.
In its essence it's pretty simple really. There's many tiny split second decisions you can make based on timings that complicate it significantly but ultimately making the 100% optimal small decisions will not make as much of a difference as understanding what you're supposed to be doing - the basics, if you will - very well.
@@ShadowTasos i just checked the other vid and it was so overcomplicated and badly explained, then i checked yours and its all clear and simple; thanks mate.
Yeah there's a couple of classes that have some swing timer interactions. Seal twisting additionally has a very very strong timing and setup requirement though
DO you have this exact swing timer layout with what seal is active. some of these other weak auras are to spazzy for me i just need simple sing timer like in this vid but also a seal indicator would be nice any advice
Hey man! Thanks for the video. I hope these haven't been asked already, but I can't seem to find them yet. I was curious if you could clarify two things for me: Does it matter which Seal we have up for Crusader Strike? SoC vs SoB/M? Additionally, judging SoC, is there ever a time in PvE when we would use it along with HoJ or while the target is otherwise stunned/incapped or is this more of a PvP thing?
1. No, it doesn't matter, though by virtue of how the "rotation" plays out you will always be using CS with Blood up. It's not an intentional choice, just how the rotation works, if you find yourself having SoC up when you CS, you have probably made a mistake. 2. Nah. The extra damage JoC has over JoB on stunned targets is not really worth the extra GCD or mana cost of switching to max rank SoC just for that.
I have been through so many guides and literally do not understand the use of seal of crusader talents? With twisting I gather your using crusader strike, seal of command then seal of blood judge and refresh. Other than the 3% crit after sinking so many talent points in. Your never using seal of the crusader..
Should I be switching back to Seal of Command after each weapon swing and then twisting Seal of Blood >0.4 seconds before my next swing every swing, or should I just leave Seal of Command up for each swing, until Judgment is about to be usable, then twist Seal of Blood in the rotation in order to conserve mana?
Both of those things are possible yeah but the damage of both SoR and SoV is too low for it to be worth the mana cost while leveling tbh. It's absolutely worth it in dungeons though! SoR that is, SoV is far too weak.
Is it possible to twist SoC with SoR, or does the delay on both fuck it up? I'm going ret in the prepatch to see how it feels, but SoB/SoV won't be obtainable till Outland
It is possible and it's something you can already do! It's a small dps boost which is neat. Its mana cost is a bit too sharp for its dps increase though. Also Consecration is going to get its spell power coefficient increased to 95% in the prepatch making it really strong, meaning SoC - SoR twists will be even more rare.
@@ShadowTasos Interesting, so would you say that, for an inexperienced ret pally, it's better to just use max rank SoC and keep CS/Judgement/Exorcism/Consecration/Holy Water on CD rather than try to twist with SoR?
@@TheNewLooter I'd say twisting right now is not worth it. It's too small of a dps boost for how challenging it is to pull off and how intensive it is on your mana. It can be good practice for when you finally get SoB though!
@@ShadowTasos you say in the video that you must always active Seal of Command first to twist, but I find that right now in Vanilla you can start with Seal of Righteousness; and then Seal of Command right before you swing, and still proc both. Wouldn't it be the same for Seal of Blood, or does it work differently?
@@Zhepaard Seal of Blood works differently. It's only Seal of Command and Righteousness that persist for 400 ms, and thus can be twisted together in any direction (SoC -> SoR and SoR -> SoC). SoB does not persist, so you can only do SoC -> SoB.
Can you seal twist from SoB into SoC on those last 0.4sec? Or does it only work the other way around ? as in once you twist you have to re-apply SoC even tho you just did SoB ? p.s. I know you addressed it, but I am just making 100% sure.
You can only seal twist from SoC (or SoR, but nobody will use that as its damage is too low) to any other seal. So yes, you have to re-apply SoC every time you want to twist.
great vid, thanks for the explanation still have 1 question for this.. does the seal twist from SoC 100%proc? I haven't reach 70yet, so I'm trying SoC to Seal of Wisdom to get some mana return, but doesn't seem to proc so frequently as other videos I saw..
It certainly does! The Crusader debuff is a massive boost to your raid's DPS and you should always use it first thing in a fight. When the fight starts, you start with Seal of the Crusader on. Then while you're running to the boss, you use Judgement and then Seal of Blood. Then you Crusader Strike. You miss 2 twists this way, so you start twisting on the 3rd swing, but that's okay.
Great video, clear and to the point! One question though, with seal of righteousness you keep SoC effect on when you swap back and forth, I guess even so it's still not worth using over seal of blood?
Yeah Seal of Righteousness scales almost exclusively with spell power and sadly ret paladins get pretty much no spell power in TBC, so its damage is very low, ultimately making it not worth using over Blood. :(
Hey, very useful info 🙏 But have question about your scrolling combat text addon, which one you use ? My old version I used all these years doesn't work :(
Would it be possible to add sound notifications for the seal twisting timestamps? (where the lines are in the twist bar) How would one go about adding this? I've looked at the code for the weakaura and can't make sense of it.
I plan to make a separate video for twisting in PvP. The simple idea is that you make 2 different macros: SoC Macro /cast Seal of Command(Rank 1) /stopattack SoB Macro /cast Seal of the Martyr /startattack You use macro #1 to activate SoC while running up to someone. Then when you have reached them and your GCD from activating SoC is over, you press the second macro. It works like reckoning stacking in a way in that you save your attack for when you are ready to unleash a big hit. The fact that you delay your auto-attack makes it bad in PvE, but PvP is all about burst so it can be very much worth it to use these macros, and most top players will probably be using them to prepare their burst.
why would seal of blood only proc once if u twist to early? my pally is a tank but I like to know every facette of my class :-) (hoping seal twisting is still a thing in WotLK... this gonna be a fun time for paladins :D)
Because SoB procs off your melee swing AND on a SoC proc, but if you twist too early, i.e. you apply SoB with too much time left until swing, the SoC will wear off before you swing and you will only have SoB active during that swing.
Can crusader strike interrupt a swing? For example, if I wait until the very end of my swing, right before attacking, to press my CS, will I lose out on a white attack? Thank you.
Hello, how to make a seal twist from the first attack in PVP, what is sequense of skills? Could i create some 1shot macro like: /stopattack /cast SOC wait? /cast SOB/ /startattack /cast crusaderstrike ?
You can't have both /cast SoB and /cast CS in the same macro because they're both on the global cooldown so you'd always cast the first one, in this case SoB. Otherwise yes your macro is correct!
@@ShadowTasos but if i use : /stopattack /cast SOC /castSOB /startattack is the SOC and SOB could use by the pressing 1 button cause we also have GCD i think?
Hello, nice guide but i have a question, twist only works if you do command in to SoB, so my question is: if i have SoB and judgement in CD should i switch to command before the swing and then try to twist on every swing to maximize DPS? or its ok to make some swings without twisting to save mana?
Are you sure you imported it correctly? If you type/wa to open the WeakAuras interface do you see Baranor's Seal Twist Swing Timer in the list? Also are you on a paladin character?
I keep hearing him talking about “seal of blood” procs but in the combat/damage feed it never once says anything about seal of blood?? Does he mean to say Seal of the Martyr??
Seal of the Martyr is the Alliance version of Seal of Blood. Since Seal of Blood was the original ability, many people call both versions (Alliance / Horde) Seal of Blood, to simplify.
Hey guys, I'm aware of the sound artifacts in this video. My mic is really bad so I have to use Audacity's noise suppression filter aggressively, else 30% of what you hear is a hissing noise. The filter however can't really do much for noises that are close to my voice in frequency so there's random artifacts here and there. I'm going to try a variety of filters for the next video so hopefully it's better / there's less cackling / weird noises, but anyone who has experience filtering out static / mic noise in Audacity feel free to offer any advice you might have!
There's been 2-3 comments about it now so just so you know I am indeed aware of it, no need to be rude :p
Your video is pretty incredible. No fat included. Ignore haters if there are any because I found a ton of value in it
Most of it is actually a lack of pop filter. Its saliva smacking.
@@maeschder it is always baffling to me to hear people being this confidently wrong. I can upload the original audio and you will hear no such noises there, except for constant mic static. The crackles are leftover peaks after an Audacity noise reduction filter pass which were too close to my voice's frequency.
you did a great job with the guide all that matters.
@@ccxlolz Thank you very much for the kind words!!
I've watched other seal twisting videos and they were off-putting and discouraging from how they explained it. After watching this I've turned a 180 and looking forward to trying it out. Thanks for including the weakaura dude you got a new sub
Really glad to hear it helped you! :) Anytime brother
This is what I needed, and not long ago i was at your subscriber numbers. Subbed and liked :*
Hey thank you very much! Have had this channel for a while, don't really use it all that much though so I guess not a whole lot for people to sub over :P
@@gerry8958 it is a recording issue so no worries. Your manners could use more improvement than my recording tho
To this day, your guide was very useful. Thank you! I had to rewatch it a few times to understand (I'm a slow learner) what I'm supposed to do but, I got the basis of it down. Now I just need to practice, practice, practice until it becomes second nature. 👍
Glad to hear it helped you out! Good luck with the twists and don't forget to have fun!
Thank you so much for making this video, it really helped me to understand it.
Having too much fun with tbc ret!
Glad to hear it helped you out man!
You have fun with your ret?
I dont know what i am doing wrong, but my ret experience is really disappointing.
Maybe this will help me to find the fun in this pathetic class...
@@nitekitten I should indeed. If the only way to play a class is exploiting, then it is bullshit.
@@Meetmountain how is it exploiting if blizzard made the conscious decision to keep it in the game?
However seal twisting seems far more engaging than the 1button rota for lock and hunter
Never really played a paladin much in OG vanilla, I knew seal twisting was a thing and want to learn it for my freshly minted TBC pally. This is the first video/tutorial where it actually clicked and made sense. Thank you.
Glad to hear my video was helpful! I know getting the hang of twisting can be pretty overwhelming, especially since there's a lot of bad or overcomplicated information out there. That's why I made my video :P
Bro thank you so much, made seal twisting super easy to understand !!!
Glad my video helped you out brother!
I have been considering boosting a paladin as my main alt and I've been looking into twisting quite a bit. This video is the best one I've watched! Great job dude! Thank you for the video!
Glad to hear my video helped you out brother! Hope you have lots of fun with your paladin :)
just started playing ret a couple weeks ago, finally had a proper group in a kara last night with an enh + feral, pushing out 1200+dps on every boss with my decked out ret sure felt good. can't wait to get nether vortex to upgrade my sword again. This video helped alot for me to understand seal twisting, thanks!
Thanks for the vid and for the weakaura, they are both amazing! Makes Sealtwisting so much easier!
Hey man, I'm really glad they could help you out :D
Thank you for explaining this in depth in a slow and sorted way! Had real problems with other explanations!
Glad to hear my video helped you!
Bookmarking 3:40 for myself as a reminder, thank you for the video
Glad that it helped you man!
Geared-to-the-teeth holy paladin here... Lost our ret paladin to an overseas move (lucky guy, moving to Ireland), so I decided to respec to play around. Your explanation was simple to understand, and your WeakAura gave it a visual component that is super nice. The ret paladin was in a different Kara team, so when Gorehowl dropped, I took it rather than see it sharded - now I have a use for it (and got the Hammer from Maulgar last night, to boot - seems to be on par with Gorehowl, with a nice chuck of INT for sustain). My only problem is being too glued to the swing timer and missing CS when it comes off CD.
Glad to know the video was helpful to you man :) If you're human the hammer is a lot stronger than Gorehowl, if you're not human Gorehowl is a small bit stronger than the hammer. You get used to twisting with time and you don't have to look at the swing timer as much after a while :)
@@ShadowTasos Only one further question: after twisting, is it a priority to set up another twist (switch back to Command ASAP), or wait to judge Martyr, then set up the next twist?
@@CVSopranothere's no definitive answer to that, it depends on the context. If your CS is ready or about to be ready, you just CS an swing with SoB, then twist in the next swing. If you have a whole bunch of haste, let's say because of heroism, you can do 2 twists in a row by switching to command manually and then CS with SoB on the 3rd twist. Judgement is just not too important. Under normal circumstances I'll do twist -> CS and swing with SoB -> judge and SoC to prepare for twist, but as I explained in depends hugely on the current game state and can vary wildly based on your attack speed.
I'm having to stop the video every 15 seconds or so to stop and think about how this works but your video is the first one that made me actually understand it. Just stop the video, read what he wrote, look at your abilities and put it together, it's not terribly difficult once you understand it and learn how fast your weapon is. Thanks for the good explanation in layman's terms. I need some good macros to help with this now.
This is insane. I was able to finally get weak auras to work and tried out sealtwist. I am a lvl 61 human ret paladin. I been seal twisting lvl 1 seal of crusader into command, but when I tried seal of righteousness into command I been seeing insane damage. Righteousness procs off of the command damage as well and I see one white damage and three yellow. Can't wait to try this with seal of blood or matyr.
Best twisting guide by far thanks m8
Thanks man, glad it helped you!
Fantastic video, really well explained
Thank you! I'm glad it helped you!
tl:dr
have seal of command (rank1) active in the time after! the green line in his weakaura.
in that time (the small window of .4 seconds) switch to seal of blood.
use judgement ONLY on seal of blood!
use any other spell at max. 1.6 seconds before your swingtimer is completed, simply because of the GCD of 1.5s hence going for 2s might be the better option for many players due to lag or so.
always do seal twist > CS, hence if CS comes up 1.4s before your swingtimer is completed, ignore CS for that duration
I keep max rank soc somewhere close so if I stun I can get that good dps without the self damage, only rarely tho
On boss fights, is it worth starting off by judging seal of the crusader for the adtl holy damage?
@@OtakuMainer yes, and it's worth having the improved version so everyone attacking gets 3% more crit too. It's such a good seal
thank you for making a weakaura that doesn't cover my entire screen.
Great video! Very helpful, especially with the timestamps. Thank you :)
Glad it was helpful :D
thanks for the details :) now, i m going to practice XD and thanks for your Weakaura
Great video! Thx mate! Hope to see more Ret content from you :)
Hey man, thank you for the kind words :) stay tuned for more TBC ret content. A lot of it will be PvP though, like my Classic PvP stuff. Also planning to stream!
@@ShadowTasos Thats great news! I am really looking forward to PVP in TBC. While a played a ton of PVP in all WOW exansions I will play Ret for the first time in TBC :)
@@skizzikwow7061 You're in for a treat, I think it's really fun :D Has its downsides but it plays really differently to most other specs and I really enjoy it
I always loved Paladins but this takes it to a whole new level. I love just deleting people after they underestimated you because of your class.
It really does! It's a great feeling :D
What a god creating this info.. and a weakaura. Legend
@@nfc14g hey man, really glad you found it useful :D
You earned your self a like for letting me know that, i as a paladin enjoyer am glad!
Glad I could help man!
Awesome stuff Baranor
Thanks brother!
Thank you Sir. Great Video. Keep it up brother. Sub gained.
Glad my video helped you brother!
good video nice video ty now I got it
Don’t need a swing timer to do it but certainly optimize it. I’ve always wondered why this was happeneing
By the way you can also seal twist with seal of rightenousness if you do it with command you can do it back and forth
That is true! I mention that in the video's text. However Righteousness is a lot weaker than Blood so you're never using it at level 70 sadly.
With this rotation you could macro Judgement to also apply Seal of Command in the line after your Judgement cast, saving you a key press.
You could yeah. There's some situations where you'd want to use Judgements into Martyr again but they don't come up too often.
I don't remember where I read it, nor do I remember the reason why, but there was (supposedly) a downside to macroing judgement and seals together. Something to do with the GCD screwing with the macro and/or rotation for some reason. While probably not noticeable to the average player...the try-hard players who want to push the limits absolutely do not do this.
@@romel420 I actually do this all the time. It's the opposite of what you're saying. It saves a GCD because SoC is not on the GCD. So I open SotC, judge macro with Soc rank 1, time, twist new seal, CS, judge, etc
Hey bud, and thanks for a great tut.
I have another weakaura for RetPally with rotations etc. It has a Swing timer, but not that green bar at 0.4s. How do you add it?
Very good guide! Thank you so much!!
Glad it could help you man!
Very good Video!
Yet the question: What to do in Era without SoB?
You can twist SoC -> Seal of Righteousness and in fact it works even better than SoB because you can twist both ways (SoC > SoR and SoR > SoC) which makes it a lot easier!
@@ShadowTasos It works! very nice, thank you!
This is just what I needed. Thank you!
Glad I could help!
Great video, thanks for the text.
Glad it was helpful brother!
very good guide, even if i dont need it. there is not enough ret content out for tbc. many ppl will be shocked to see a well played rets dps. many will be in shame to ret. every test so far didnt include proper twisting in dps stats.
Hey dude, thanks a lot for your kind words! Yes, most people are underestimating ret after its poor performance in Classic, they will be very surprised in TBC :D
honestly this looks super potent for pvp,
It certainly can be, it increases our burst ceiling very significantly. However even on private servers that had twisting enabled, ret wasn't exactly a tier 1 spec because it has a lot of weaknesses and burst never really was lacking.
Well thank you , I’ve subbed , I’ll be going prot but going for a aggressive ret twisty build
is there a way i can reduce the width and lenth of the bar?
great video btw !
How to manage the mana with all these seal twists? Isn't it going to deplete too early into a long bossfight? What are the best ways to keep up your mana in TBC?
Yeah mana management will be tough, twisting is mana intensive. As I mention in the video, you want to use rank 1 Seal of Command always. You also want to use Dark Runes on cooldown for mana regen, and make sure Judgement of Wisdom is up at all times. Then if you get too low on mana, you stop twisting for a bit, you just auto attack with SoB and use CS on cooldown.
@@ShadowTasos Good old Dark Runes!
Thank you for the tips!
First off, amazing video! Very detailed and easily explained, and the weakaura is aweosome!
One question I have I am seeing an issue with sometimes and didn't see described in this video. In times where you have a haste proc from mongoose, hero, trinkets, and whatever else, when the swing time is shorter than the gcd to be able to twist what would be your recommendation as to what needs to be done in that time in place of not quite having the time to twist?
Hey man! I'm glad you found the video useful.
I am not quite sure as to what you're trying to ask because unless you're using a 1H weapon it's pretty much impossible for your swing timer to be faster than your GCD (1.5 sec). The big haste modifiers (Heroism, Drums) also give you spell haste, which reduces your GCD as well, so your swing timer will always be slower than the GCD.
If you're asking about what you should do in high haste situations, the answer is stop using filler spells (Consecrate, Exorcism) as you won't have time for them, and focus more on twisting by manually switching to SoC rather than waiting to judge SoB first. Your objective doesn't change, you twist on as many seals as possible while minimizing how much you delay your CS.
Hope I understood your question!
excellent video. Thank you man
I am glad it helped you!
would you make a short vid explaining how to custom the bar you are using to time the auto attack please? im stuck trying with weak auras, need help. Nice vid btw
nvm i logged into the discord group and look for it myself ty
1:21 I downloaded your WA but it does not have the weapon swing bar you show here
Did you try attacking something mate
I have doubts this makes any sense. But I will definitely try it to see if it does make sense.
Huh? :P
@@ShadowTasos Seal twisting, seems to spend a lot of mana for questionable gains. Frankly it's unclear how well it would work during hero cause that's basically the only time I'd think it's smart to use it. When you hero and dump your mana fast, could seal twist instead of spamming cons, it consumes similar mana after all. Also I think this is a horrible idea for noobs. How about if your guild sucks and you have 5-8-10 minute boss fights? Try to pull this off every swing and you won't last 3 minutes.
@@Akirilus Ret paladins in general kind of struggle for mana in TBC. Twisting uses a comparable amount of mana to your regular rotation due to consecrate's mana cost.
You treat the mana issues the same way you would with the regular rotation: when you're close to running out of mana, you just stop using certain mana intensive abilities and fall back to SotM + Crusader Strike. Dark Runes will also be very important for sustain.
@@ShadowTasos Maybe, I did say I'd try it, but still feels sketchy, obv atm I can only try it on retail with SOR which in fact yealds a big dps increase when command procs, when command procs... cause sometimes it doesn't prock for 5 times in a row, 51 mana for rank 1 plus the mana for SOR, well at least consecration does some dmg in this time, me switching between these without a proc does not, let's not forget that it makes judgements a bit awkward to use.
@@Akirilus It definitely makes Judgement pretty awkward to use!
Consecration is very strong right now because of its 95% spell power coefficient and all the spell power we have on our gear. And while SoR is good, it's not as good as SoB. So twisting right now is kinda awkward, it's still a DPS boost but not a huge one so it's not a big deal.
In TBC however we lose all of our spell power except for JotC and IDS, which isn't all that much, so Consecration becomes a lot weaker. And we also gain SoB. So there's fewer reasons not to twist.
What I like to do is have a stopattack macrod with SoC, and startattack macrod with SoB. This way if the gcd doesn't quite reset before the swing timer ends, it's no big deal
!!! As I mention in the video it is a big deal! Depending on how long you delay your swing there (and even a very small amount like 50-100 ms is enough) you actually lose DPS compared to auto attacking with SoB on.
Never ever delay your swings!
Would like to make a recommendation, adding the 1.6 sec before swing line for a quick visual of the SoC proc break point
That has been requested a few times already so I plan to add it very soon!! :)
@@ShadowTasos Got a friend to add the SoC break point if you want it?
@@cliffarrington1875 you can feel free to send it to me and I'll check it out!
good idea
I added that in the latest version of my WA, you have to enable it under custom options!
Thank you so much, buddy
3:58 Do you mean by swinging only white hit or also cs? since i heared sob procs on cs aswell...
4:18 not even pvp with soj or hoj or rep? if not (since idk if it procc the extra stun/incap dmg) what about if twoway twising was implemented?
is soj even worth it even in pvp iyo outside of joj?
can you go further into detail when stopattack is good? even in pvp i can only see a super niche use to prevent the enemy using something because of a potential big dmg procc before you stun and idk if youd even ever do that insead of fishing for justice stuns (idk if justice is even worth it since its a lot of overall dps loss for a slightly little bigger oneshot bang with that as intro) but i might be dumb missing something obvious
Great video!
Got two questions:
1. is it worth to have a startattack macro? (prefight SoB and then... /startattack & /cast SoC as a bind? will that do SoB damage + white damage and switch to SoC at the very start of the attack?)
-> also, if true, after that do you do Crusader Strike & twist to SoB at the end of the first timer?
2. for longer fights, where does judgement of crusader come into play? When do you judge it?
Hey! First of all you always do SoC first, SoB second! For twisting to work you must start with SoC then switch to SoB just before you twist. You cannot twist SoB -> SoC.
1. Yeah having a /startattack /cast Seal of Blood macro in general is good, both in PvE and PvP. You don't really need it in PvE, as there's only 1 time when you use it (fight start, as you said) and you can do it with any other /startattack macro, but it doesn't h urt either.
After a twist start, you can use CS then SoC into SoB, but only if your weapon speed is 3.1 or slower!
2. I'd recommend just judging it at the start really, it's okay if you miss 1 twist so you can get Judgement of the Crusader up. Judge crusader, switch to blood, auto attack, CS, then SoC into a SoB twist just before your swing.
Hey Thank you so much for making this video breaking down the rotation, any chance you could provide some in game content using seal twisting while pvping, killing mobs, ect just to see the rotation in real time when you are playing
Heya! I will probably be streaming part of my leveling journey on my twitch stream (link in the description) and I'll very likely be uploading arena / raid footage here.
@@ShadowTasos Sounds good looking forward to it! cant wait! I got my spot in our guild come TBC! Just finished our last Naxx run before pre patch ;__;
@@athends Haha think a lot of people are in the same boat as you. Best of luck, you're in for a treat
Tnx alot dude, great video right on points that I was confused with. Is it possible for you to make a guide on weakaura with the swing timer?
Glad to know I could help dude! I am unsure what you mean by guide on weakaura
@@ShadowTasos i think he means how you made the weakaura, but you have the link added already, anyways great vid!
@@Deochar glad you enjoyed it!
cant download the seat twist addon timer! any help
anyone
i dont see the icon for download
@@marwantawfiq there is no download icon, it's called copy import string.
you actually make it sounds less complicated that its actually is
In its essence it's pretty simple really. There's many tiny split second decisions you can make based on timings that complicate it significantly but ultimately making the 100% optimal small decisions will not make as much of a difference as understanding what you're supposed to be doing - the basics, if you will - very well.
@@ShadowTasos i just checked the other vid and it was so overcomplicated and badly explained, then i checked yours and its all clear and simple; thanks mate.
Great video!
Glad you liked it, thank you for the kind words!
It reminds me quite a bit of Arms warrior slamming in TBC.
Yeah there's a couple of classes that have some swing timer interactions. Seal twisting additionally has a very very strong timing and setup requirement though
Thank you, this WA is amazing.
Hey man, glad to hear it could help you :D
ty sir, apreciate that
Glad I could help brother!
Nice job 👍 have many need have expertise on palladian?
DO you have this exact swing timer layout with what seal is active. some of these other weak auras are to spazzy for me i just need simple sing timer like in this vid but also a seal indicator would be nice any advice
Hey man! Thanks for the video. I hope these haven't been asked already, but I can't seem to find them yet. I was curious if you could clarify two things for me:
Does it matter which Seal we have up for Crusader Strike? SoC vs SoB/M?
Additionally, judging SoC, is there ever a time in PvE when we would use it along with HoJ or while the target is otherwise stunned/incapped or is this more of a PvP thing?
1. No, it doesn't matter, though by virtue of how the "rotation" plays out you will always be using CS with Blood up. It's not an intentional choice, just how the rotation works, if you find yourself having SoC up when you CS, you have probably made a mistake.
2. Nah. The extra damage JoC has over JoB on stunned targets is not really worth the extra GCD or mana cost of switching to max rank SoC just for that.
Huge bro thank you
How can I get the swing timer to stay on screen instead of popping up only during combat?
Very simple and well explained! Can we have your wrakauras? It makes it very visual
The link to the WeakAura is in the video's description! I am glad it helped you :)
Great video! what seal should we crusader strike on? or does it matter?
It doesn't matter as Crusader Strike cannot proc seals!
Is it possible to twist from blood to command? Instead of command into blood as usual
I have been through so many guides and literally do not understand the use of seal of crusader talents? With twisting I gather your using crusader strike, seal of command then seal of blood judge and refresh. Other than the 3% crit after sinking so many talent points in. Your never using seal of the crusader..
What do you mean by talents? There's only 1 talent, not many, and it's the 3% crit one which is incredible
Should I be switching back to Seal of Command after each weapon swing and then twisting Seal of Blood >0.4 seconds before my next swing every swing, or should I just leave Seal of Command up for each swing, until Judgment is about to be usable, then twist Seal of Blood in the rotation in order to conserve mana?
While leveling, is it possible to twist SoC into SoV or is it better to use SoR instead of SoV? Obviously once I’m 70 I’ll be switching to SoC>SoB
Both of those things are possible yeah but the damage of both SoR and SoV is too low for it to be worth the mana cost while leveling tbh. It's absolutely worth it in dungeons though! SoR that is, SoV is far too weak.
Is it possible to twist SoC with SoR, or does the delay on both fuck it up? I'm going ret in the prepatch to see how it feels, but SoB/SoV won't be obtainable till Outland
It is possible and it's something you can already do! It's a small dps boost which is neat. Its mana cost is a bit too sharp for its dps increase though. Also Consecration is going to get its spell power coefficient increased to 95% in the prepatch making it really strong, meaning SoC - SoR twists will be even more rare.
@@ShadowTasos Interesting, so would you say that, for an inexperienced ret pally, it's better to just use max rank SoC and keep CS/Judgement/Exorcism/Consecration/Holy Water on CD rather than try to twist with SoR?
@@TheNewLooter I'd say twisting right now is not worth it. It's too small of a dps boost for how challenging it is to pull off and how intensive it is on your mana. It can be good practice for when you finally get SoB though!
@@ShadowTasos you say in the video that you must always active Seal of Command first to twist, but I find that right now in Vanilla you can start with Seal of Righteousness; and then Seal of Command right before you swing, and still proc both. Wouldn't it be the same for Seal of Blood, or does it work differently?
@@Zhepaard Seal of Blood works differently. It's only Seal of Command and Righteousness that persist for 400 ms, and thus can be twisted together in any direction (SoC -> SoR and SoR -> SoC).
SoB does not persist, so you can only do SoC -> SoB.
Is it still possbile to seal twist between SoCrusader and SoR? I did it all of classic but this case doesn't seem to work anymore. Am I wrong?
It is, and it's easier now actually since SoR lingers now, but I'm going to be honest, I can't really think of any situations where that's useful :P
Hi, what is that addon that changes your font of text and name of that font please?
I think the addon is called "Font Damage Changer" but i don't know what the name of the font is
Can you seal twist from SoB into SoC on those last 0.4sec? Or does it only work the other way around ? as in once you twist you have to re-apply SoC even tho you just did SoB ? p.s. I know you addressed it, but I am just making 100% sure.
You can only seal twist from SoC (or SoR, but nobody will use that as its damage is too low) to any other seal. So yes, you have to re-apply SoC every time you want to twist.
@@ShadowTasos Thank you for the reply.
great vid, thanks for the explanation
still have 1 question for this.. does the seal twist from SoC 100%proc?
I haven't reach 70yet, so I'm trying SoC to Seal of Wisdom to get some mana return, but doesn't seem to proc so frequently as other videos I saw..
I believe SoC itself can only proc 7 times per minute.
Will you get the seal of blood double proc if you twist from blood to command? or just command to blood?
You cannot twist from Blood to Command, its impossible as Blood does not persist for 400 ms like Command does. You can only do Command to Blood. :(
@@ShadowTasos Bummer, Thank you
Thank you for the guide. I knew this was a thing but I did not know you HAD to use an addon... but makes sense to be honest
It's not 100% mandatory technically but doing it without a swing timer makes it 10000x harder
@@ShadowTasos Also every time you change your weapon, you need to master the new weapon speed... It is just impossible to do it without the addon
People are saying to user Crusader as well for the Debuff and the holy damage how does that fit in or doesn't it?
It certainly does! The Crusader debuff is a massive boost to your raid's DPS and you should always use it first thing in a fight.
When the fight starts, you start with Seal of the Crusader on. Then while you're running to the boss, you use Judgement and then Seal of Blood. Then you Crusader Strike. You miss 2 twists this way, so you start twisting on the 3rd swing, but that's okay.
What if you time the seal twist in such a way that you will seal twist weapon attack and judgment at the same time to give judgement 2 procs as well
Judgement cannot get 2 procs, it will only ever be 1 judgement
Great video, clear and to the point! One question though, with seal of righteousness you keep SoC effect on when you swap back and forth, I guess even so it's still not worth using over seal of blood?
Yeah Seal of Righteousness scales almost exclusively with spell power and sadly ret paladins get pretty much no spell power in TBC, so its damage is very low, ultimately making it not worth using over Blood. :(
Hey, very useful info 🙏
But have question about your scrolling combat text addon, which one you use ?
My old version I used all these years doesn't work :(
I don't use one :P Sorry
Would it be possible to add sound notifications for the seal twisting timestamps? (where the lines are in the twist bar) How would one go about adding this? I've looked at the code for the weakaura and can't make sense of it.
It is possible yes. You can do it either through code or the WeakAuras interface. I may add it as an optional feature in a later version of my WA!
@@ShadowTasos do you have any tips on how to do this? I am struggling to understand the code here.
Hi, first of all, sorry for my english. Second, how can I get that green bar that tells the right moment for the seal switch? thank you from advantage
where the location thats training dummy statue location?. where for the horde and Ally each one
They are only on the PTR. You can find them in Shattrath.
@@ShadowTasos thats PTR is available for now?
What would happen if you judge in the window where both seals are up?
You get the Judgement of the new Seal. So if you do SoC -> SoB -> Judge, you use Judgement of Blood.
any chance there's a good example for using those macros in pvp? there are dozens of us!
I plan to make a separate video for twisting in PvP.
The simple idea is that you make 2 different macros:
SoC Macro
/cast Seal of Command(Rank 1)
/stopattack
SoB Macro
/cast Seal of the Martyr
/startattack
You use macro #1 to activate SoC while running up to someone. Then when you have reached them and your GCD from activating SoC is over, you press the second macro.
It works like reckoning stacking in a way in that you save your attack for when you are ready to unleash a big hit. The fact that you delay your auto-attack makes it bad in PvE, but PvP is all about burst so it can be very much worth it to use these macros, and most top players will probably be using them to prepare their burst.
why would seal of blood only proc once if u twist to early?
my pally is a tank but I like to know every facette of my class :-)
(hoping seal twisting is still a thing in WotLK... this gonna be a fun time for paladins :D)
Because SoB procs off your melee swing AND on a SoC proc, but if you twist too early, i.e. you apply SoB with too much time left until swing, the SoC will wear off before you swing and you will only have SoB active during that swing.
but arent you supposed to be using judgement with Seal of the Crusader for the crit chance debuff?
You do that at the start of the fight, when you auto attack you renew it, so for the rest of the fight you can use Judgement of Blood.
Hey Baranor, is it possible to modify your weakaura to not update mid swing if you lose or gain a haste effect?
Can crusader strike interrupt a swing? For example, if I wait until the very end of my swing, right before attacking, to press my CS, will I lose out on a white attack? Thank you.
It cannot! So use it anytime it's ready :)
Hello, how to make a seal twist from the first attack in PVP, what is sequense of skills? Could i create some 1shot macro like:
/stopattack
/cast SOC
wait?
/cast SOB/
/startattack
/cast crusaderstrike
?
You can't have both /cast SoB and /cast CS in the same macro because they're both on the global cooldown so you'd always cast the first one, in this case SoB.
Otherwise yes your macro is correct!
@@ShadowTasos but if i use :
/stopattack
/cast SOC
/castSOB
/startattack
is the SOC and SOB could use by the pressing 1 button cause we also have GCD i think?
@@romanpysanka578 no you need 2 macros, 1 for SoC 1 for SoB
@@ShadowTasos should both of them will be with startattack and stopattack?
@@romanpysanka578 You do stopattack and SoC for macro #1, macro #2 is /cast SoB /startattack
it seems to be possible to also twist from SoB to SoC, so wouldnt it also be possible to swap back and forth between them without doing judment?
Dps loss
Hello, nice guide but i have a question, twist only works if you do command in to SoB, so my question is: if i have SoB and judgement in CD should i switch to command before the swing and then try to twist on every swing to maximize DPS? or its ok to make some swings without twisting to save mana?
Yes! If Judgement is not available you just manually switch to Seal of Command. Just make sure to not delay your Crusader Strike as much as possible!
how can i install a weakaura like this? i actually dont get it
I loaded the weakaura you shared but when I auto-attack nothing appears?
Are you sure you imported it correctly? If you type/wa to open the WeakAuras interface do you see Baranor's Seal Twist Swing Timer in the list? Also are you on a paladin character?
@@ShadowTasos Yeah, I did not know that it was made just for palas. Thanks for the reply tho.
So would twisting SoC and SoR work at lower levels when we don't have SoB yet? And would that be worth doing while leveling?
It does work. It's not really worth doing though, besides practicing for twisting at level 70.
Is there an addon that makes my active seal glowing so I dont get lost in what seal is active?
You can get a weakaura for that
Anyone know how to make the aura display all the time (not just in combat). Personal preference but I'd like the frame to be visible all the time.
What about a solo leveling/pvp spec where you get 5 points into reckoning instead of getting Crusader strike?
You can use seal twisting with that build too!
I keep hearing him talking about “seal of blood” procs but in the combat/damage feed it never once says anything about seal of blood?? Does he mean to say Seal of the Martyr??
Seal of the Martyr is the Alliance version of Seal of Blood. Since Seal of Blood was the original ability, many people call both versions (Alliance / Horde) Seal of Blood, to simplify.
I've seen some things about being able to twist back and forth with any seals now. Is that true?
It's not, it used to be the case for a bit in the beta but it was a bug so it was fixed
@@ShadowTasos okay but currently while leveling I am able to twist back and forth between command and righteousness. Does blood change this?