The best way to reach me for any questions is the Light Club Discord: link in the description. The original TBC Reckoning weakaura used to track extra attacks has begun spitting out errors, so I have updated the link with a fixed version: wago.io/woGV4kzIu Extra benefits of using /stopattack filler macros that I left out of the video (there's just so many, and the video is already pretty long): - The internal cooldown for Wild Strikes, Hand of Justice etc. begins when the attack is stored, not spent. This means you can get multiple Wild Strikes on the same twist since the ICD will have reset by the time you spend the stored attack. Not only do we gain white swings from using these macros, but we also gain more extra attack procs. - The Wild Strikes 20% AP buff lasts until it is consumed by the Wild Strikes attack **OR** until 1.5 seconds has passed. Since our Wild Strikes is getting stored, the AP buff will continue to linger for 1.5 seconds and buff our other spells and attacks. - If you're really sweaty, you can take 4 stored extra attacks into a boss fight or a PvP duel and instant twist into them for a massive burst of damage. It's free damage, you might as well be using it.
@@vuzuruges9909 lol yes if you go in with 4 attacks stored already, you will need a taunt or God tier tank threat Still free damage if you don't do that, though :p
Wait this is why I pull on Vael isn't it? Why / how is these extra attacks stored? I got yelled at for not letting tank build threat even though I gave the tank a solid 5 second window..
@@grissebasse99 it's very unlikely you had stored extra attacks on the first melee unless you stored them intentionally, because you store them with judge and filler but spend them with every twist also you would've had to avoid starting your attack while stacking them up, once you startattack you must spend them or they vanish
This is one of the best guides I've ever seen for this game. Concise while packed with vital info, examples and demonstrations. Absolutely stellar work. This singlehandedly made me ditch my idea of going Exodin in favor of trying this technique as it appears way more interesting and fun. You, sir, are truly a champion of Fordring.
Update: Got 4 Judgement pieces and updated all my macros as suggested. Finally topped my 1st damage meter on Lord Kazzak just now. Without this vid I likely would never have given it a shot - you have my thanks
I'm glad we have the Tier 2 set bonuses or I would've never tried, and now I'm invested. Made some improvements to your macros and I'm officially a gigachad twister.
hard agree i was one of the twisting pioneers back in BT & SW in 2007 or w/e. Back then world 5th parses were 2200, and i had my share So cool to replay that in SoD, just, better.
@@huusarn you can also use a modifier like /cancelaura [mod:shift] Seal of Command but technically it's still a 2nd keybind How do you use GSE to achieve that? Just make your judge alternate between regular and cancel? What happens if it gets out of sync with which seal you're using?
@@surveillant yea as you say it just alternates the macros, when you have started its chill but in the start or if you fail a twist its easy to get out of sync :(. I started using the shift mod but found it hard but will probably go back to it when i can do the rotation good with GSE. btw thanks for all the good content :)
Haha thanks. If you want the mp3 file for that "DJ Drop", I can give you the file on discord - name Surveillant, just message me (can find me in Light Club discord). I wish more people did cool things with them like making weakauras and stuff. I have a few of them: "Damn son, now that's a big twist" (in the style of rap music "Damn son, now where'd ya find this?") "SICK TWIST" (in the style of Quake sound effect) "This show has been brought to you by Light Club, where monkeys go to church."
Best video hands down. I have one tweak to the Seal macros though. Have you tried adding /stopattack after /startattack on the seal macros? Since that is essentially what you are doing, I've tested it and it works. That way I don't have to worry about hitting a 3rd button just to twist. Thanks for the video!
@@Sparks3D yeah you can't have startattack and stopattack on the same macro. They will just alternate rather than both commands going through each time. It might work on an instant twist where the auto and seal happen at the same time, but not for any normal twist it shouldn't. You also don't want to stop your auto attack at the same time as you're casting seals, as this is right before your twist auto attack goes off > you would end up stopping your twist before it even happens. Since the auto and seal don't happen at exactly the same time. Additionally it's good practice to avoid munching any stored extra attacks, because if you start and then stop again without spending your stored attacks you'd lose them. Once you start your attack you have to commit. If both commands went through, or if you just accidentally hit it twice, you'd munch all your stored attacks right before the twist Everybody is always looking for shortcuts to cut down on the macros required or combine various macros together - there really isn't a solution that is more elegant than the macros already provided and recommended, unfortunately, and I've tried most of them
@surveillant Thanks for the response! Yup this would be for instant twisting only, which is essentially what it looks like you are doing on Nef. From testing it out, not running into any problems having stop right after start on the same macro. What I like is that I have a guaranteed twist every time (of course the hits can still miss, parry, dodge, like usual.) And I'm not worried about hitting the .4 window. I guess I would just ask yourself, while instant twisting are you always hitting your /stopattack macro after you twist, if so adding it after /startattack is the same thing. Also, not having any issues with Judgements because it is still twisting and consuming the previous seal as usual. Cheers!
@Sparks3D I guess I'm just not sure what the benefit is to having a separate macro / modifier to have a seal with an extra stopattack at the end but only for instant twists? You will just end up using stopattack on your next filler or judge anyway, which does the same thing I not manually hitting stopattack unless I need to set up an instant twist for whatever reason (accidentally used filler in danger zone, or I'm out of range, etc) my judge and filler macros do that for me in between each normal twist You shouldn't hold your stopattack and instant twist every single twist, because that means you're delaying your auto, which means you are definitely losing melee attacks over the course of the fight You should just be late twisting using the 2nd tick which is basically as close to an instant twist as you can get without delaying your auto. If you're waiting for your swing to be ready and then instant twisting every twist, you're delaying your auto by default and losing swings over time. This is basically called stopattack twisting and it's what you do when you're haste capped and have no other option basically, but I don't think there's a reason to include stopattack in the seal macro at all, only downsides And again youre probably going to lose extra attacks doing this because you're likely stopping your attack before they go off (remember they occur like 10-30ms after the auto not at the same time) if you have stored extra attacks and you use this macro with both start and stop, you're likely just munching your stored attacks on instant twists, and certainly on normal twists which will get screwed anyway by the stopattack if it goes off stopping your attack before the twist occurs - if you're even just 0.01ms early by accident then you will lose big damage by starting attack and stopping it, basically just casting a seal and munching all your stored attacks and your auto just gets stuck until you restart it Yeah Nef p1 all you can do is instant twist really since they die immediately and your swing is ready when they spawn
@@surveillant @surveillant As far as the extra hits, I don't know how to test that. It is letting the melee hits through is all I can see. So a few benefits would be that you aren't missing swings, so having them stored or munched doesn't really apply. Another benefit is that you are always pro-judging and saving having to reapply your seal. Also with Judgement, in regards to having no set bonuses, you can judge this way every 2 swings instead of every 3 like in your guide. You can do this by having Improved Judgement and you may need to wait a half second after your second swing was supposed to hit. This allows for more judgements and you don't need to be worrying about hitting the tiny .2 seconds window to do this everytime since you are in the /stopattack mode. I don't have a separate set of macros to do all this. I only have 2 macros to twist that look like this: #showtooltip /cast Seal of Command /startattack /stopattack Same thing for Martyr, and for the fillers they look exactly like your fillers, and the same for Judgement. I don't add Judgement to the fillers because then you would need to refresh wasting mana when you could have just pro-judged using this method by making sure to hit judgement right after you twist. Hopefully this explains a little more of my set up. Appreciated your responses!
idk why maybe im juss doomed but i still have so much trouble with hittin twists after the first couple.. idk why and yeah i got all addons and such, more power to u twisters boys
I fixed the issue with judging in the seal linger window consistently with a castsequence macro which delays my judge. All you need to do is smash the seal key in the twist window and it will judge correctly 100% of the time.
@@moveslol how are you delaying the judgement using cast sequence? Are you sure that you are not judging early? Check log and see if judgement is happening after the auto attack + seals, if you lack 2p T2 you can also try twisting with SoR and see if any of your twists are missing a seal You can still get martyrdom on an early judge, but we still want to avoid it - an early cancel judge or any judge without 2p t2 would remove seal before the twist for example, and you wouldn't be able to include cancelaura in the cast sequence macro. Early stopattack judge would stop attacking before twist as well, and you want stopattack on judge but startattack on seals which can't go into the same macro Its usually never a good idea to put seal + judge together
@@surveillant Idk I get martyr soc+martyr+ martyr judge, like always. You can test it yourself: #showtooltip Seal of Command(Rank 1) /castsequence reset=0.5 Seal of Command(Rank 1), Judgement /startattack Why would I stopattack when judging tho? I dont have the set bonus where I would need to cancelaura SoC for judge yet. I was planning on having a different bind for that. But I thought I could reduce button bloat. Im not savy enough to test it through logs but on observation it seems to be working as inteded. Im always getting a martyr proc atleast and Im in SoC, so even if SoC doesnt go off im getting martyr, which its correct.
@@mitmatlol I might be twisting super late. I double tab it and thats enough of a delay. I tried getting other ingame to use it and they would sometimes also judge to early
@@moveslol the reset doesn't delay the judgement, it just resets to seal of command after 0.5 seconds, so with this cast sequence macro you would still need a very short delay between seal and judge just as if you didn't macro them together. Stopattack on judge has many benefits, in the end it's just free damage. Without 2pc T2, it prevents your extra attacks from going off while you have no seal. It ensures your extra attacks always happen during the twists. This could work if you are twisting very late, like you should, and still leaving a small gap between seal and judge - but it excludes you from using stopattack on judge; if you ever judge too early and reset your swing, you'll have lost an entire swing.
Appreciate all the work you do, but man I did not enjoy playing paladin like this. Gave me a headache. Good thing seal stacking is still viable. Got a 99 parse on Nef.
Yo, can you explain why the Judgement [@target] stopattack macro still makes my character begin an auto attack? Try it out. Put up a seal outside of melee range without startattack queued, then while standing next to the target press the stopattack judgement macro. It will autoattack once before stopattack
@@S1mp1ex if your auto attack is already ready, the judge stopattack won't occur in time to prevent the auto attack from going off (if you're facing them and in melee range). It's not really an issue, since we are never using it while our swing is already ready. It's a quirk that is unique to Judgement only.
Core Forged is what we call seal stacking, not seal twisting, because it plays fundamentally completely different, and you don't actually "twist" your seal right before an auto-attack. Your seals just become passive buffs again, that you keep maintained at all times (or rather, at least for every single auto - one seal can drop for a short time, as long as its back up for next auto) Naturally you would also want to double judge when you're able to, ideally with enough time to refresh both seals before the next melee swing if needed. Other than keeping your 2 seals active for every melee, and "double judging'" whenever you can followed by refreshing both seals, you simply cast your spells following the priority: CS > DS > Exorcism > Consecrate (single target) DS >=< Cons > CS > Exorcism (AoE / cleave) [Cons above DS for big AoE pulls, DS above Cons for "cleave" pulls of 5 or less enemies] You can find the entire rotation explained in detail in the same Wowhead Rotation Guide that is listed in the description - just go to the section for "Seal Stacking", which is what we call it now, using the 6-set Core Forged bonus and 6-second twisting window.
For someone who only cares about the dps, what is the meta for retris in p5? I'm seeing most retris going slow weapon + 6/8 core forged + 2/8 draconian
Seal Twisting 100% and a slow weapon (we want slow weapons, as close to 3.5 base speed as possible without going under, with 4pc T2 draconic). It's not as popular as it's more challenging, but it is now dominating all the major parsing categories. It's 8% better on the sim, but varies in-game. It looks like it's going to be the meta in AQ as well. I also think it's by FAR the most fun to play. Many Paladins went Core Forged 6pc as they basically already knew the rotation from Molten Core and it is much easier, but can still perform really well, just not as well as seal twisting can. It was dominating early on this phase, but has been surpassed by the smaller population of seal twisters. It was the go-to spec for people who didn't want to twist. This build is called "Seal Stacking" and is going to fall off in AQ it seems, and another build, temporarily being referred to as "Wrath Lite", where you simply use one seal and press all your spells, is going to take over. "Wrath Lite" uses almost all the same gear as Seal Twisting anyway, so you can switch between them. You're going to want at least 4-pieces of Draconic Tier 2 for AQ, so it makes sense to do Seal Twisting anyway - as you cannot convert Core Forged gear back to Draconic.
It is still completely doable yes, you just might need to move the ticks + sound cues + color changes in the swing timer to adjust - I know someone who twists and cancel judges with 270ms completely fine. It's just something you have to adjust to. Go to the Display and Conditions tabs, and try adding 0.15-0.2 to the tick markers / sound / color changes and start there until it feels like a good spot.
@@Drotord because you want judgement to occur after the auto attack, not at the same time as the seal - just shortly after additionally because you want /stopattack on judge, but /startattack on seal - if you don't have stopattack on judge and you judge with your seal, and it resets the swing timer from a proc, you just lost an entire swing.
There is a weird thing happening to me. I have checked all my macros, addons etc but when I use the stopattack macro on the fillers and startattack on seals, it happens once in a while that my seals suddenly wont proc startattack. And again, I have them all macroed. It specially happens when I am moving in the same time. Any tips what could cause this and have you noticed this yourself?
@@farmari87 try deleting the macro completely and remaking it You can also Google how to delete macro cache, as a last resort, but I think you lose all your macros if you do this It sounds like the bug where sometimes you have to remake a macro to get it to work properly again Are you sure that you werent maybe just a little out of range or at the wrong angle and that's why your attack didn't go off? When it happens, look at your characters animation - are the attacking or just standing there? That would tell you if the startattack went off. Can also use the auto attack spell to see if it's toggled on
So you said for people with different MS they would have to move the green bars for the twists im on 64 ms most of the time not sure if I have to move it or not but even then id just assume its a feel it out kinda thing huh?
64ms is low enough that youll be fine leaving them where they are; but if for some reason they feel completely off, you can try moving them. I play with 40ms-50ms myself and the ticks work great.
It's usually not worth the mana while leveling, you'll spend a lot more time drinking. Maybe for elites / dungeon bosses where you need the extra damage.
I did it to practice it. But I had a full p1 geared ret, it is so much fun. But please keep in mind to twist without judgement, while you don’t have the t2 set bonus.
@@stu805x yes the top logs are still a mix of twisting and seal stacking. Stacking is actually better on Vael, and other times when you can get haste buffs like squawks, temporal acceleration, tiger loa, etc.
@@Arigato-Mister-Roboto there is 2 other playstyles other than seal twisting you can play as paladin that are also good. Exodin and Seal Stacking. But seal twisting is really easy, way easier than it seems at first glance Up to you
No offense to the video, that said its super sad we are still trying to seal twist. Cmon guys we really cant ask for a decent rotation thats fun and satisfying, so we are still hanging on to some glitch from TBC?
@@tonyz7690 there are 2 other rotations you can do that are perfectly good? Exodin and Seal Stacking? Shit you can just use Martyrdom and press all your spells and it's fine - not really that far off. Seal Twisting IS a decent and satisfying rotation in my opinion. Yes we are still hanging on to it because it's awesome, and we have fun doing it? What's sad about people wanting to twist? It's not a glitch anymore, it's a feature - the developers added it themselves you don't have to do it, we have so many different rotations to choose from that are all good, so I don't get it what's the complaint?
@@grinampwns most people don't even twist in pvp, they use 6p T1 Just like many classes, we are strong in open world but sort of average in battlegrounds
Also since we dont got training dummies is there like an unkillable mob preferably close by to a main city can use to practice on? dunno why they didnt add training dummies in SoD especially when they had them in PTR
As a giganoob in SoD raiding and all the marvelous addons (like yours, one of the best Ive ever seen): What is the addon you use to track Horn of Lordaeron? Google wasnt much help, and I am notoriously bad at keeping it up during fights. It has to stop. And I love this way of doing it. I somehow managed to fiddle with your addon settings to a point where everything worked except the current seal-icon, and I tried raiding with that. This was an amazingly bad idea. To anyone in that situation: Reinstall, and apply your changes from the top. It's a must-have for everything.
@@JarmamStuff it's just a simple weakaura I made myself. Make a new icon weakaura, set trigger to horn (425600 spellid I think), change display to %p for progress, then go to conditions and make it glow when duration is less than 6 seconds or not active, and desaturate when not active. Then I make it load in combat only.
macro for pressing 1 button to alternate casting seal of marty and seal of crusader useful for twisting where u can just keep pressing teh same 1 button and it alternates casting SoM and SoC. #showtooptip /startattack /castsequence Seal of Martyrdom, Seal of Command i like to add /equip Libram of Plenty at end to swap librams i have for wisdom macro a little tech for seal twisting. that way it swaps librams auto when needed starting ur wisdom to judge it auto equips libram of fervor when u cast ur weisdom then judge then use the macro above switch to other ilbram /cast Seal of Wisdom /equip Libram of Fervor dunno how useful this is but thought id mention can reply and say its bad if it is./
@@TheHoboWithAShotgun that's fine if you can keep track of what seal you're in. I wouldn't add the Libram swap, as it will trigger a global cooldown unless you're already on the gcd, and it resets your swing. I just have my librams on my bars. If you judge crusader with fervor and then swap librams, the crusader debuff will downgrade. Fervor adds hardly anything only like 7 attack power value, I would just not use it. Use draconic destruction for any dragonkins
@surveillant ok. Ty so I'll take it out And yah don't got the dragonkin librarm and never did blood moon to get any coins periods. Trying to get it now is aids as no one really does it anymore, and I'm lazy to go farm it. I'll stick with libram of plenty ty. If I can find a way to get the dragonkin one I will ty fkr reply
@@TheHoboWithAShotgun so there is 3 ways to farm the Libram easily. It's really not so bad with a little help. 1) slowest - farm the gorillas on the island. 1 blood each. Can get 150 coins per event. 2) find the boosters - some people sell boosts/kills for gold - obviously I don't condone buying one, but they usually congregate near the ruins of aboraz, I farmed them a few times. You can usually catch them when they have full blood. And take 33 per kill off them (they are ez targets, usually half afk) 3) get a few friends from your guild and get them to come duel you. I had 3 or 4 people help me and they staggered their res and I got 600 in one event easily, coulda been more but I got all I needed You can also try to farm people going into ZG, but most of them usually have the event turned off, so it's often a waste of time.
The best way to reach me for any questions is the Light Club Discord: link in the description.
The original TBC Reckoning weakaura used to track extra attacks has begun spitting out errors, so I have updated the link with a fixed version:
wago.io/woGV4kzIu
Extra benefits of using /stopattack filler macros that I left out of the video (there's just so many, and the video is already pretty long):
- The internal cooldown for Wild Strikes, Hand of Justice etc. begins when the attack is stored, not spent. This means you can get multiple Wild Strikes on the same twist since the ICD will have reset by the time you spend the stored attack. Not only do we gain white swings from using these macros, but we also gain more extra attack procs.
- The Wild Strikes 20% AP buff lasts until it is consumed by the Wild Strikes attack **OR** until 1.5 seconds has passed. Since our Wild Strikes is getting stored, the AP buff will continue to linger for 1.5 seconds and buff our other spells and attacks.
- If you're really sweaty, you can take 4 stored extra attacks into a boss fight or a PvP duel and instant twist into them for a massive burst of damage.
It's free damage, you might as well be using it.
"It's free damage, you might as well be using it."
no threat and instant slap by the boss? kekw
@@vuzuruges9909 lol yes if you go in with 4 attacks stored already, you will need a taunt or God tier tank threat
Still free damage if you don't do that, though :p
Wait this is why I pull on Vael isn't it? Why / how is these extra attacks stored? I got yelled at for not letting tank build threat even though I gave the tank a solid 5 second window..
@@grissebasse99 it's very unlikely you had stored extra attacks on the first melee unless you stored them intentionally, because you store them with judge and filler but spend them with every twist
also you would've had to avoid starting your attack while stacking them up, once you startattack you must spend them or they vanish
This is one of the best guides I've ever seen for this game. Concise while packed with vital info, examples and demonstrations. Absolutely stellar work. This singlehandedly made me ditch my idea of going Exodin in favor of trying this technique as it appears way more interesting and fun. You, sir, are truly a champion of Fordring.
Update: Got 4 Judgement pieces and updated all my macros as suggested. Finally topped my 1st damage meter on Lord Kazzak just now. Without this vid I likely would never have given it a shot - you have my thanks
Phenomenal guide amigo 👏🏻 always keeping it locked in with the info 🔒
That thumbnail is insanely good
I'm glad you're still doing these things man. You're a real one.
The True Light you bless all Paladins. Great work
Bro this is such good content, this video deserves way more views! Good shit brother keep twisted!
I'm glad we have the Tier 2 set bonuses or I would've never tried, and now I'm invested. Made some improvements to your macros and I'm officially a gigachad twister.
Great vid! Thx for adding and explaining the beginners parts,
Only twist video I understood as a casual and feel like I can do now 🙏
Dude, I needed this video. No one could explain it to me properly. Thanks man, for your time to give knowledge to us beginners.
nothing beats TBC twisting, im stilll craving it
hard agree
i was one of the twisting pioneers back in BT & SW in 2007 or w/e. Back then world 5th parses were 2200, and i had my share
So cool to replay that in SoD, just, better.
This video is 100% worth the sub
Great job! Thanks for the info
That's dedication! Love it!
Best guide I’ve ever seen - ngl! ❤
really nice guide and weakaura! gj!
thanks I lost a lot of sleep coding it ! glad people like it
TY thus guide us incredible and perfectly explains seal twisting snd in detail. Pretty much every other one has been poor confusing guides
I didn’t know SoD had seal twisting and I just have to play Alliance now I guess. Seal twisting the best mini game ever
Great guide thanks mate
you can use the addon GSE to sequence the cancel judgement so it can be on one button :)
@@huusarn you can also use a modifier like
/cancelaura [mod:shift] Seal of Command
but technically it's still a 2nd keybind
How do you use GSE to achieve that? Just make your judge alternate between regular and cancel? What happens if it gets out of sync with which seal you're using?
@@surveillant yea as you say it just alternates the macros, when you have started its chill but in the start or if you fail a twist its easy to get out of sync :(. I started using the shift mod but found it hard but will probably go back to it when i can do the rotation good with GSE.
btw thanks for all the good content :)
meanwhile my monkey brain has been insta twisting by hitting escape at the start of boss fights like im still in tbc
intro had me lol'ing. fantastic content.
Haha thanks. If you want the mp3 file for that "DJ Drop", I can give you the file on discord - name Surveillant, just message me (can find me in Light Club discord). I wish more people did cool things with them like making weakauras and stuff.
I have a few of them:
"Damn son, now that's a big twist" (in the style of rap music "Damn son, now where'd ya find this?")
"SICK TWIST" (in the style of Quake sound effect)
"This show has been brought to you by Light Club, where monkeys go to church."
Best video hands down. I have one tweak to the Seal macros though. Have you tried adding /stopattack after /startattack on the seal macros? Since that is essentially what you are doing, I've tested it and it works. That way I don't have to worry about hitting a 3rd button just to twist. Thanks for the video!
@@Sparks3D yeah you can't have startattack and stopattack on the same macro. They will just alternate rather than both commands going through each time.
It might work on an instant twist where the auto and seal happen at the same time, but not for any normal twist it shouldn't.
You also don't want to stop your auto attack at the same time as you're casting seals, as this is right before your twist auto attack goes off > you would end up stopping your twist before it even happens. Since the auto and seal don't happen at exactly the same time.
Additionally it's good practice to avoid munching any stored extra attacks, because if you start and then stop again without spending your stored attacks you'd lose them. Once you start your attack you have to commit. If both commands went through, or if you just accidentally hit it twice, you'd munch all your stored attacks right before the twist
Everybody is always looking for shortcuts to cut down on the macros required or combine various macros together - there really isn't a solution that is more elegant than the macros already provided and recommended, unfortunately, and I've tried most of them
@surveillant Thanks for the response! Yup this would be for instant twisting only, which is essentially what it looks like you are doing on Nef. From testing it out, not running into any problems having stop right after start on the same macro. What I like is that I have a guaranteed twist every time (of course the hits can still miss, parry, dodge, like usual.) And I'm not worried about hitting the .4 window. I guess I would just ask yourself, while instant twisting are you always hitting your /stopattack macro after you twist, if so adding it after /startattack is the same thing. Also, not having any issues with Judgements because it is still twisting and consuming the previous seal as usual. Cheers!
@Sparks3D I guess I'm just not sure what the benefit is to having a separate macro / modifier to have a seal with an extra stopattack at the end but only for instant twists? You will just end up using stopattack on your next filler or judge anyway, which does the same thing
I not manually hitting stopattack unless I need to set up an instant twist for whatever reason (accidentally used filler in danger zone, or I'm out of range, etc) my judge and filler macros do that for me in between each normal twist
You shouldn't hold your stopattack and instant twist every single twist, because that means you're delaying your auto, which means you are definitely losing melee attacks over the course of the fight
You should just be late twisting using the 2nd tick which is basically as close to an instant twist as you can get without delaying your auto.
If you're waiting for your swing to be ready and then instant twisting every twist, you're delaying your auto by default and losing swings over time. This is basically called stopattack twisting and it's what you do when you're haste capped and have no other option basically, but I don't think there's a reason to include stopattack in the seal macro at all, only downsides
And again youre probably going to lose extra attacks doing this because you're likely stopping your attack before they go off (remember they occur like 10-30ms after the auto not at the same time) if you have stored extra attacks and you use this macro with both start and stop, you're likely just munching your stored attacks on instant twists, and certainly on normal twists which will get screwed anyway by the stopattack if it goes off stopping your attack before the twist occurs - if you're even just 0.01ms early by accident then you will lose big damage by starting attack and stopping it, basically just casting a seal and munching all your stored attacks and your auto just gets stuck until you restart it
Yeah Nef p1 all you can do is instant twist really since they die immediately and your swing is ready when they spawn
@Sparks3D sorry I edited that a few times as I thought about it but done now
@@surveillant @surveillant As far as the extra hits, I don't know how to test that. It is letting the melee hits through is all I can see. So a few benefits would be that you aren't missing swings, so having them stored or munched doesn't really apply. Another benefit is that you are always pro-judging and saving having to reapply your seal. Also with Judgement, in regards to having no set bonuses, you can judge this way every 2 swings instead of every 3 like in your guide. You can do this by having Improved Judgement and you may need to wait a half second after your second swing was supposed to hit. This allows for more judgements and you don't need to be worrying about hitting the tiny .2 seconds window to do this everytime since you are in the /stopattack mode. I don't have a separate set of macros to do all this. I only have 2 macros to twist that look like this:
#showtooltip
/cast Seal of Command
/startattack
/stopattack
Same thing for Martyr, and for the fillers they look exactly like your fillers, and the same for Judgement. I don't add Judgement to the fillers because then you would need to refresh wasting mana when you could have just pro-judged using this method by making sure to hit judgement right after you twist. Hopefully this explains a little more of my set up. Appreciated your responses!
idk why maybe im juss doomed but i still have so much trouble with hittin twists after the first couple.. idk why and yeah i got all addons and such, more power to u twisters boys
Thanks for the vid, great as always.
Do you have any of raids recordings for bwl?
yeah i have a few im gonna drop over the next few days, but you can see the VODs on my twitch already (link in description)
The one and only
I fixed the issue with judging in the seal linger window consistently with a castsequence macro which delays my judge. All you need to do is smash the seal key in the twist window and it will judge correctly 100% of the time.
@@moveslol how are you delaying the judgement using cast sequence? Are you sure that you are not judging early?
Check log and see if judgement is happening after the auto attack + seals, if you lack 2p T2 you can also try twisting with SoR and see if any of your twists are missing a seal
You can still get martyrdom on an early judge, but we still want to avoid it - an early cancel judge or any judge without 2p t2 would remove seal before the twist for example, and you wouldn't be able to include cancelaura in the cast sequence macro.
Early stopattack judge would stop attacking before twist as well, and you want stopattack on judge but startattack on seals which can't go into the same macro
Its usually never a good idea to put seal + judge together
How do you get a macro to delay judgement when it has no gcd. Wouldn't mashing it just seal and judge at same time and miss your auto attack?
@@surveillant Idk I get martyr soc+martyr+ martyr judge, like always. You can test it yourself:
#showtooltip Seal of Command(Rank 1)
/castsequence reset=0.5 Seal of Command(Rank 1), Judgement
/startattack
Why would I stopattack when judging tho?
I dont have the set bonus where I would need to cancelaura SoC for judge yet. I was planning on having a different bind for that.
But I thought I could reduce button bloat. Im not savy enough to test it through logs but on observation it seems to be working as inteded. Im always getting a martyr proc atleast and Im in SoC, so even if SoC doesnt go off im getting martyr, which its correct.
@@mitmatlol I might be twisting super late. I double tab it and thats enough of a delay. I tried getting other ingame to use it and they would sometimes also judge to early
@@moveslol the reset doesn't delay the judgement, it just resets to seal of command after 0.5 seconds, so with this cast sequence macro you would still need a very short delay between seal and judge just as if you didn't macro them together.
Stopattack on judge has many benefits, in the end it's just free damage. Without 2pc T2, it prevents your extra attacks from going off while you have no seal. It ensures your extra attacks always happen during the twists.
This could work if you are twisting very late, like you should, and still leaving a small gap between seal and judge - but it excludes you from using stopattack on judge; if you ever judge too early and reset your swing, you'll have lost an entire swing.
Appreciate all the work you do, but man I did not enjoy playing paladin like this. Gave me a headache. Good thing seal stacking is still viable. Got a 99 parse on Nef.
@@DominicanHater2375 hey glad there's a build for you that you enjoy. Gz
hey surveillant, what is the WA at 8:04 that show's the history of your spells cast? is that available
@@beatsbybrazy it's details damage meter, a plugin called Action Tracker (previously known as Streamer) should come default with Details Damage Meter
Thanks! @@surveillant
Yo, can you explain why the Judgement [@target] stopattack macro still makes my character begin an auto attack? Try it out. Put up a seal outside of melee range without startattack queued, then while standing next to the target press the stopattack judgement macro. It will autoattack once before stopattack
@@S1mp1ex if your auto attack is already ready, the judge stopattack won't occur in time to prevent the auto attack from going off (if you're facing them and in melee range).
It's not really an issue, since we are never using it while our swing is already ready.
It's a quirk that is unique to Judgement only.
Question with core forged set bonus do you still have to twist on timer or just make sure you keep both seals activated?
Core Forged is what we call seal stacking, not seal twisting, because it plays fundamentally completely different, and you don't actually "twist" your seal right before an auto-attack.
Your seals just become passive buffs again, that you keep maintained at all times (or rather, at least for every single auto - one seal can drop for a short time, as long as its back up for next auto)
Naturally you would also want to double judge when you're able to, ideally with enough time to refresh both seals before the next melee swing if needed.
Other than keeping your 2 seals active for every melee, and "double judging'" whenever you can followed by refreshing both seals, you simply cast your spells following the priority:
CS > DS > Exorcism > Consecrate
(single target)
DS >=< Cons > CS > Exorcism
(AoE / cleave)
[Cons above DS for big AoE pulls, DS above Cons for "cleave" pulls of 5 or less enemies]
You can find the entire rotation explained in detail in the same Wowhead Rotation Guide that is listed in the description - just go to the section for "Seal Stacking", which is what we call it now, using the 6-set Core Forged bonus and 6-second twisting window.
I miss twisting so much man. Should have rolled alliance in sod lol
@@Altobrun it's never too late!!
For someone who only cares about the dps, what is the meta for retris in p5? I'm seeing most retris going slow weapon + 6/8 core forged + 2/8 draconian
Seal Twisting 100% and a slow weapon (we want slow weapons, as close to 3.5 base speed as possible without going under, with 4pc T2 draconic). It's not as popular as it's more challenging, but it is now dominating all the major parsing categories. It's 8% better on the sim, but varies in-game. It looks like it's going to be the meta in AQ as well. I also think it's by FAR the most fun to play.
Many Paladins went Core Forged 6pc as they basically already knew the rotation from Molten Core and it is much easier, but can still perform really well, just not as well as seal twisting can. It was dominating early on this phase, but has been surpassed by the smaller population of seal twisters. It was the go-to spec for people who didn't want to twist.
This build is called "Seal Stacking" and is going to fall off in AQ it seems, and another build, temporarily being referred to as "Wrath Lite", where you simply use one seal and press all your spells, is going to take over. "Wrath Lite" uses almost all the same gear as Seal Twisting anyway, so you can switch between them.
You're going to want at least 4-pieces of Draconic Tier 2 for AQ, so it makes sense to do Seal Twisting anyway - as you cannot convert Core Forged gear back to Draconic.
Hey mate, I’m a recent convert to us servers from AU, I have around 200 ms is cancel judging still a possibility? I’ve just gotten 4 pc Draconic
It is still completely doable yes, you just might need to move the ticks + sound cues + color changes in the swing timer to adjust - I know someone who twists and cancel judges with 270ms completely fine. It's just something you have to adjust to.
Go to the Display and Conditions tabs, and try adding 0.15-0.2 to the tick markers / sound / color changes and start there until it feels like a good spot.
Is it a bad idea to add /cast judgement into the seals? If you have t2 2 set
You said to macro it to the filler spells. But could we just macro it to every spell and just never worry about it?
@@Drotord you can macro it into everything but seals
@@surveillant why is that, does it mess up the swing timers?
@@Drotord because you want judgement to occur after the auto attack, not at the same time as the seal - just shortly after
additionally because you want /stopattack on judge, but /startattack on seal - if you don't have stopattack on judge and you judge with your seal, and it resets the swing timer from a proc, you just lost an entire swing.
Why prio cs and ds over exorcism? Doesn’t exo hit much harder on single target?
@@roccox2xx99 not really, when you consider righteous vengeance
There is a weird thing happening to me. I have checked all my macros, addons etc but when I use the stopattack macro on the fillers and startattack on seals, it happens once in a while that my seals suddenly wont proc startattack. And again, I have them all macroed. It specially happens when I am moving in the same time. Any tips what could cause this and have you noticed this yourself?
@@farmari87 try deleting the macro completely and remaking it
You can also Google how to delete macro cache, as a last resort, but I think you lose all your macros if you do this
It sounds like the bug where sometimes you have to remake a macro to get it to work properly again
Are you sure that you werent maybe just a little out of range or at the wrong angle and that's why your attack didn't go off? When it happens, look at your characters animation - are the attacking or just standing there? That would tell you if the startattack went off. Can also use the auto attack spell to see if it's toggled on
So you said for people with different MS they would have to move the green bars for the twists im on 64 ms most of the time not sure if I have to move it or not but even then id just assume its a feel it out kinda thing huh?
64ms is low enough that youll be fine leaving them where they are; but if for some reason they feel completely off, you can try moving them. I play with 40ms-50ms myself and the ticks work great.
Ret paladin Sim broke at the moment :/
Wrong link on the extra attack weakaura? Gives some reckoning shenigans.
@@farmari87 it's the right link. TBC Reckoning weakauras track extra attacks, exactly what we need.
@surveillant oh yes, makes sense. Ty.
@@farmari87 That weakaura has begun spitting out errors, so I uploaded a fixed version to Wago. Link is in the description or here: wago.io/woGV4kzIu
@@surveillant thanks for the update!
should i bother twisting while leveling up?
It's usually not worth the mana while leveling, you'll spend a lot more time drinking. Maybe for elites / dungeon bosses where you need the extra damage.
I did it to practice it. But I had a full p1 geared ret, it is so much fun. But please keep in mind to twist without judgement, while you don’t have the t2 set bonus.
seal stacking is at least decent right?
@@stu805x yes the top logs are still a mix of twisting and seal stacking. Stacking is actually better on Vael, and other times when you can get haste buffs like squawks, temporal acceleration, tiger loa, etc.
This....seems like a lot of stuff just to do damage in an easy game....maybe i should just play something easy like boomy
@@Arigato-Mister-Roboto there is 2 other playstyles other than seal twisting you can play as paladin that are also good. Exodin and Seal Stacking.
But seal twisting is really easy, way easier than it seems at first glance
Up to you
@@surveillant okay ill give it a try. love the paladin lore and the aesthetic.
to play paladin should not be hard like that...
@@seafood500 there's multiple playstyles, the rest are ez and also good . You don't have to twist. Twisting isn't even very hard anyway
This is how playing Paladin should have been all along.
No offense to the video, that said its super sad we are still trying to seal twist. Cmon guys we really cant ask for a decent rotation thats fun and satisfying, so we are still hanging on to some glitch from TBC?
@@tonyz7690 there are 2 other rotations you can do that are perfectly good? Exodin and Seal Stacking? Shit you can just use Martyrdom and press all your spells and it's fine - not really that far off.
Seal Twisting IS a decent and satisfying rotation in my opinion. Yes we are still hanging on to it because it's awesome, and we have fun doing it? What's sad about people wanting to twist? It's not a glitch anymore, it's a feature - the developers added it themselves
you don't have to do it, we have so many different rotations to choose from that are all good, so I don't get it what's the complaint?
This is such an uninformed comment lol
Careful dude they get really upset when you say anything negative about seal twisting
Pls blizzard, remove seal twisting. It's not fair that ret paladins beat everyone in pvp on SOD.
If you let a ret pally beat you in pvp you’re just bad at pvp
@@TomGotGankedlol… in denial if you think paladin is not busted in PvP.. embarrassing
@@BrokenToyAnimations there’s better classes tho
@@BrokenToyAnimations and this isn’t even a pvp so idk why you guys are commenting on it 😂
@@grinampwns most people don't even twist in pvp, they use 6p T1
Just like many classes, we are strong in open world but sort of average in battlegrounds
Also since we dont got training dummies is there like an unkillable mob preferably close by to a main city can use to practice on?
dunno why they didnt add training dummies in SoD especially when they had them in PTR
@@TheHoboWithAShotgun undying laborer, servant of razelikh (blasted lands mob I use in the video)
As a giganoob in SoD raiding and all the marvelous addons (like yours, one of the best Ive ever seen): What is the addon you use to track Horn of Lordaeron? Google wasnt much help, and I am notoriously bad at keeping it up during fights. It has to stop. And I love this way of doing it.
I somehow managed to fiddle with your addon settings to a point where everything worked except the current seal-icon, and I tried raiding with that. This was an amazingly bad idea. To anyone in that situation: Reinstall, and apply your changes from the top. It's a must-have for everything.
@@JarmamStuff it's just a simple weakaura I made myself. Make a new icon weakaura, set trigger to horn (425600 spellid I think), change display to %p for progress, then go to conditions and make it glow when duration is less than 6 seconds or not active, and desaturate when not active. Then I make it load in combat only.
@@surveillant Much appreciated
macro for pressing 1 button to alternate casting seal of marty and seal of crusader useful for twisting where u can just keep pressing teh same 1 button and it alternates casting SoM and SoC.
#showtooptip
/startattack
/castsequence Seal of Martyrdom, Seal of Command
i like to add
/equip Libram of Plenty
at end to swap librams
i have for wisdom macro a little tech for seal twisting. that way it swaps librams auto when needed starting ur wisdom to judge it auto equips libram of fervor when u cast ur weisdom then judge then use the macro above switch to other ilbram
/cast Seal of Wisdom
/equip Libram of Fervor
dunno how useful this is but thought id mention can reply and say its bad if it is./
@@TheHoboWithAShotgun that's fine if you can keep track of what seal you're in.
I wouldn't add the Libram swap, as it will trigger a global cooldown unless you're already on the gcd, and it resets your swing. I just have my librams on my bars.
If you judge crusader with fervor and then swap librams, the crusader debuff will downgrade. Fervor adds hardly anything only like 7 attack power value, I would just not use it.
Use draconic destruction for any dragonkins
@surveillant ok. Ty so I'll take it out
And yah don't got the dragonkin librarm and never did blood moon to get any coins periods.
Trying to get it now is aids as no one really does it anymore, and I'm lazy to go farm it. I'll stick with libram of plenty ty.
If I can find a way to get the dragonkin one I will ty fkr reply
@@TheHoboWithAShotgun so there is 3 ways to farm the Libram easily. It's really not so bad with a little help.
1) slowest - farm the gorillas on the island. 1 blood each. Can get 150 coins per event.
2) find the boosters - some people sell boosts/kills for gold - obviously I don't condone buying one, but they usually congregate near the ruins of aboraz, I farmed them a few times. You can usually catch them when they have full blood. And take 33 per kill off them (they are ez targets, usually half afk)
3) get a few friends from your guild and get them to come duel you. I had 3 or 4 people help me and they staggered their res and I got 600 in one event easily, coulda been more but I got all I needed
You can also try to farm people going into ZG, but most of them usually have the event turned off, so it's often a waste of time.
@@surveillant ty yay I'll look into it