The Bare Minimum for Cam Swaps on Harley-Davidson Motorcycles
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- Опубліковано 2 гру 2021
- Harley-Davidson cam Swaps can go from simple to obscenely expensive in short order. A lot of questions come up with swapping cams like What will happen to my fuel economy? Do I need to change my lifters? Can I run my stock cam plate? Do I need a high volume oil pump? This all depends on budget, mileage and varies between the Evo, Twin Cam and Milwaukee 8 engines. These are all real questions from viewer comments and emails, these are the right questions to ask when planning on swapping a cam.
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Would you do a simple bolt in cam installation reusing stock components or go ahead and upgrade while you're in the motor?
As a former automotive mechanic we ALWAYS changed the lifters while doing a cam swap with the exception of mileage. If you are not the first owner, and you don’t know the service history consider changing them out anyhow.
Depends on how many miles are on the engine. Anything under 70K on an Evo I'd feel safe with a cam swap, bearing and lifters. I ONLY run solid stock pushrods. While there install S&S Reed style breather.
I did a cam upgrade (Zippers 468) in Sept. to my 2018 Road King. I added a new HD oil pump, lifters and pushrods. My mechanic told me that a cam plate and torque converter were not necessary at this power level.
Initially in 2002 or 2003 I just had the cams and pushrods upgraded per the Harley-Davidson parts manual. 40-45,000 miles later I had the Screamin’ Eagle cam plate kit installed with the upgraded fuel pump. No lifter work as of now at a little over 64,000 miles. Just installed a K&N filter. It should help a little. Every little bit counts on what is essentially a Stage II kit on a TC88 B.
@@kennethwise7108 I have heard that it's best to get rid of the plastic breather then some people say the plastic breather if there's a problem it's plastic and won't harm any bearings and can actually pick up little bits of junk. Other people say get some type of metal breather not being a mechanic I'm kind of stuck with what other people have suggested so I'm confused
When I tear something down, and realize how much time it takes to get it torn down and put back together, All I keep thinking is that I don't want to get back into this for as long as possible. So anything I can do at that point is just helping. That being said Im not broke when I start. Everyone can do what they want, but for me, if I am so strapped for cash that I cant do the upgrades while changing a cam...... Well, who really "needs" a new cam in that circumstance.... Frankly, I did my cam swap while I was doing preventive maintenance on a newly owned used twin cam 88 with known tensioner issues. While Im in here fixing all the things that need to be fixed I might as well swap the cam... "and do a gear drive upgrade".. Thats what the wife heard anyway... LOL.
A Woods cam kit for a 114 at Fuel moto is $659. That includes everything cam, rods, lifters, bearing, gaskets. You are crazy not to do a kit. Forget dropping $700. on an aftermarket oil pump,
2021 HD upgrade pump for an air cooled only $151. and acknowledged to be 100% reliable by many credible UA-cam builders. So $810. plus labor and you are done!! Excellent video.
I did the cam plate upgrade in my 88 a couple years ago, should have done cams then but I wasn’t looking that far into the future so I get to break it open again this winter for cams. Great video great advice, I guess I’m adding lifters to the list now lol. Thanks for always providing great content.
Thank you. Changing cams and this was very helpful
Thanks for info. I have 21 ultra so I’m going to keep stock pump and have a cam install it gets done in the 19th I can’t wait to install
@GF I have a Twim Cam 96 (2011) that I bought new. Originally, I watched a couple videos that were specific to my bike, but I have become a big fan. Interesting topics, and obviously well researched answers (whether online or by having actual experience). Hoping you continue to get lots of questions so we have lots more videos to watch in the future! As an older rider, I really don't need to double my HP and let the wife collect my Life Insurance. New cams sound like a nice compromise, though 👍
I would also suggest cleaning off the factory applied threadlocker on the new supplied bolts and apply fresh threadlocker. After my TwinScam seized, i found that the cam bolt had backed out and was grinding it's head on the inside of the cam cover.
That wasn't what killed it, but it's something I never expected to happen.
I put in S&S gear drive used stock cam plate and newer oil pump, Everything worked out great.Oh I did put Screaming eagle lifters in it
Nice work! Gear drives are the way to go with a twin cam!
im not a bike mechanic but after viewing alot of your videos, i would upgrade to and cam plate and oil pump from s&s and (s&s cam). thanks for the informative vids
Great video! “While you are there” is a great school of thought. While performing maintenance on helicopters, gearboxes, engines and the like our saying was “when in doubt, change it out”. That was always after an inspection of the individual parts with a 10X magnifying glass. Every toolbox should have one.
That's a good saying to work by! New parts wear out old and they can for sure shorten the life of new parts. It's really judgement call after an inspection on low mile parts but even then I've been burned with a failure.
Great Info!! Thank You 👍🏻
Love watching your videos Gixx, I'll bet you're a blast at a rally, get a couple of beers in ya and then make a comment about not needing new lifters in an Evo. You probably have some talking points wrote down beforehand but it'comes off like it's off the top of the head. Well done lad, can't wait for the next one!
As always your channel is very informative, thanks
Thank you, I appreciate it! Stay safe out there!
Good info. Probably doing cam next winter (mainly because S&S kit on back order). Oil pump is a must on my 18.
Your last point about fuel economy though I think is well made. I come at this from a truck owner operator. Many times actually turning up the horsepower on a Diesel engine will actually increase your fuel economy if you are gentle with your right foot. I would assume the same could be said with a motorcycle. While you’ll allow more air and fuel to be used by the bike, everything is all determinate on how the rider used their throttle.
Thank you 🙏 bro I’ve learned so much from you & you’re channel
You're welcome, we appreciate the support on the channel!
Great info. Liking this channel
Thank you, we appreciate the support!
How about a video on your background and how you came to have such a wealth of Harley knowledge? Maybe with some hilarious mechanical mishap stories i.e. things learned "the hard way" 😂
😆😂👍 I have learning the hard way covered, great video idea!
Your channel has really helped me numerous times, keep up the great work.
Enjoyed your video again it is like a course on Harley engines.
Glad you enjoyed it, I appreciate it!
Great vid, again, THANKS!!
I appreciate it, thank you for watching!
According to the MPGometer in my car, it takes the same mpg to cruise at a given speed in different gears/ throttle openings. This leads me to believe hotter cams will deliver the same power from a given amount of fuel/air, just at a different throttle opening… if that makes sense. 🙂
..just money..... Happiness is the big brown truck backing down the drive with a parts box..bless n carry on wrenchers.. good content..
Great post, great channel.
Good stuff as always GF.
Thanks again!
As a matter of fact I am going to do a complete Feuling cam plate and 525 cams kit in my 01 springer and the wifes 01 fatboy. Both only have 15000 miles on both of them. But I have noticed a little noise coming from that area on my springer and I am not waiting for the cam tensioners to fail and see no reason to crack it open unless I change them out. I am going back new with everything. Bearings, lifters and pushrods along with the conversion cams so no press needed. The complete OE/525 kit. I would never put a new cam in and not put new lifters in with it. Its not that much money vs wiping a new cam with an old lifter and having to buy another one and new lifters.
Another solid video many thanks
I’m with you. If I’m already in there I’m doing it all. I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night if I didn’t. Lol
I installed the Woods cam on my 2007 street glide. I was gonna spend a bunch of cash of other parts but all that got done was the cam and the quick install SS rod kit. This is a great topic as I made it very complicated. Tuned and very happy. Even though it already had a cam I could never have known that unless I opened it up.
That's the only way to tell if you've got a cam in one, when you buy a used one you can usually tell it might have one. Only way to know for sure is to open the cam chest and see what's stamped on there. A bolt in cam swap goes a long way on these bikes, that's why a lot of people do the cam and stop there.
What tuner did you go with? Dynojet or thunder max?
Love it. Lol. I never ask a dealership anything. In my area they just push the Harley corporate bs.
Some dealers are better than others, there are some out there that do that unfortunately. My local dealer is pretty good, they are really straight forward about things.
Great videos with no BS. Thanks
I installed a Red Shift 468 cam, S&S cam plate and oil pump, inner cam bearing, S&S lifters and S&S adjustable push rods in my 2019 Road Glide Special. Yes I could have used the stock oil pump and cam plate but since I didn’t have the updated HD Oil Pump I went all the way. I used a power vision and a tune from Fuel Moto bike runs like a champ and it was a notable increase in power from my butt Dyno.
That feeling in the seat is what really matters over the numbers, Fuel Moto maps are really close. They put a lot of time into developing their maps, sounds like you did everything right getting those upgrades done!
Hey Gixxer another straight forward and easy to understand what you need to do.
Myself I will do everything at the same time on my Twin Cam when I'm ready makes perfect sense.Ive been thinking about getting all the parts from the U.S way better selection and well worth the courier fee's.
The hard part is choosing the right Cam.
Thanks Gixxer from NZ 🇳🇿
It's a lot up front or a lot of waiting to get all the parts together but it's a huge benefit to get it all done at once. It really makes sense if you're paying to have it done, once you get in there it's all right there and the labor is the same.
As you spoke about M8 oil pumps, I thought it would be cool to see a breakdown of the most common replacements available even Harleys.
The most common parts replaced on Harley's or replacements for the M8 oil pumps?
I'm loving the milwaukee-eight what a great engine that along with the Pan-America, and the Sportster s
Many years ago, when I was both poor and stupid, I put an EV3 cam into my 1983 Evo without changing anything. No inner bearing, no lifters, nothing. Bike ran absolutely fine for many years.
Later on, with my Rushmore Twin Cam, I changed absolutely everything, all S&S just to be sure. Again, no worries. I guess it all depends on your pocket and your experience 😁
That is very true, those Evos did very well back in the day. The new bikes it's worth the money to get the OEM parts upgraded.
Some great info there can’t wait to get into my 96 👍🏻🇦🇺
96's make great torque and horsepower with a bolt in cam!
Another great video and content. I’ve mentioned before my 103ci upgraded with a Woods 222 cam and head work. What I found is my gas mileage went way up. Typical is right around 48-50mpg. My power band is such I’m I’m running what would have been in 4th or 5th now in 5th or 6th. Unless of course I get a little twisty with the throttle. Anything over 80 and the mpg dumps to 40. LOL. All good. But if I’m doing a normal cruise down the road, gas milage is great. Thanks for all your great work.
Thanks for sharing! When you have the bike dialed in with the upgrades you're making the engine more efficient!
Great topic. The Stage II upgrade. The SE torque cam really woke up my '20 street bob... so much fun to crank on that throttle now. Only downside was the hit to my fuel economy. Being a new motor and on a short budget helped me decide to go with SE cam kit only.
I am surprised your economy took a hit with the torque cam, but if you're enjoying that power it sure will. The SE torque cam is a great choice, especially when compared to the power cam. They both produce identical power on top, the power cam barely edges the torque cam on top but not enough to notice. Low and mid range it's the torque cam all the way.
@Honest Bud could be. I'm using the SE pro street tuner with stage ii tune. She runs great!
With new cam and lifters, do I need to change out the pushrods? Or can I reuse the stock pushrods if I need to go in the rocker box anyway?
I swapped out my cam for a EV-27 and S&S lifters/pushrods. The front exhaust lifter ended up being bad from the factory. S&S replaced them, but I put the stock lifters back in the bike while I waited for the replacements to come in. Well, 10K miles later I still have the stock lifters in and a fresh set of new ones to go in when they finally go bad lol
EV27 is one of the best Evo cams out there, sadly I've heard of a lot of S&S part failures lately. S&S has been great about fixing it but that doesn't do you much good when you're down.
Why wait till they go bad, be not good....
Thank you for your videos they are great
Glad you like them! Thank you!
Love your videos and I have learned a lot from them. So glad I found your site a couple of years ago and I trust your input. I have a 2011 Fatboy with about 47k on it and want to add some cams, what would you recommend? Plan on replacing the bearings and oil pump at the same time. I am mostly looking for a bit more punch at 50mph and up. Also are there any other parts I should be considering replacing soon?
Good follow up video to this would be what tools are a must and what you can do without having to purchase etc..
That is an excellent idea! You can get the specialty tools in a Amazon or Ebay special, not everyone uses them every day so those work out great.
Hey Gixx, what do you think of Jims tools?
Only had about 1000 miles when I changed the cam. Changed the cam, inner bearings. Uset same lifters and pushrods ( I did the work myself so didn't mind the extea time to r/r top end.
Doing it yourself is the key! You save a lot of money that way, that's a 500 hundred dollar job doing itself versus 1500 at a shop.
great comparison on all the engine iterations. good job man.
oh wnen i upgraded my 2018 to 131 i saw really no different in fuel mileage.
That makes sense, you're the 131 is a very efficient setup and it makes some serious power!
Thank you! I appreciate it!
Great content, love your channel.....even though the video was published 2 years ago, the message is still the same......My 23 Street Glide 107, is getting its Stage 2 upgrade next week. After a lot of research, I'm installing the Zippers RS468 Cam, Lifters, Push Rods and covers and also up grading the plastic lifter cuffs and swapping out the stock header for performance (no-cat) header . And of course a proper Dyno Shop Tune (Dynojet).....so My Impulse Screamin Eagle Street Tuner Pro purchase now becomes essentially a very expensive "Code Reader".....or an interesting paper weight......I do find it interesting that while I love my bike, every single performance or fit upgrade has come from aftermarket manufacturers!!!!! Suspension, exhaust, hand and foot controls, lighting.....even bluetooth adapters to allow CarPlay to function without Paying Harley. Since my SG is still in the break-in period I opted to forgo the Cam Plate and Oil Pump...... Loved your vid on Warranties as well. Spot on...Ride safe.....
I am really happy to hear you're going the Zippers route and replacing the plastic in there while you're there! The Screamin Eagle Tuner is great if you're keeping the bike all Harley and sticking with Screamin Eagle.
New sub from me.. I’m on a ‘14 FXDB with the 103 (don’t think it’s the H.O.), 2-1 exhaust, air cleaner and power vision with target tune (live tuning with 12mm open loop sensors).. your video on cams BLEW MY DAMN MIND that the RPMs can go that high.. changed my riding.. I am mechanically inclined but not sure about new cams
Thank you for the sub! Cams make a huge difference, that's what really tailors your power to where you ride!
This was so helpful and exactly what I've been debating on spending the extra $$$ during the winter project. I have a 2019 Fat Bob 114 with a little over 3k miles.
So good to understand there is no need to buy the aftermarket lifters and pushrods. I'll go with just the cam and spend the money on the oil pump and cam plate combo from s&s.
Thanks my man!!
Good stuff!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Always match a cam to your riding style. Your head flow and compression are very important along with proper exhaust. Your compression and actual compression will differ with what your intake close timing is on the cam. A larger cam with a later intake close number will get away with more compression by bleeding it off. High hp cams do not work very well on heavy bikes in touring applications. The more lift and duration the less bottom end the engine will make. Exhaust is very important on 45 twins. 2 into 1 with proper head tubes and collector size work the best for street power. Its all Math. Match everything to work together. Big heads big cams cause lazy port velocity. Just depends what rpm u wana make power and how drivable you want it to be. Peak Hp is never the answer. Look at the entire power curve especially the torque. Broad long power band is what u want on the street.
.....MAN OHHH MAN.... You are JUST SO SO SO CORRECT!!!! It's good to see ya saying this as well !!!..... MANY THINK ---JUST PUT IN A BIGGER CAM--EVEN IN MUSCLE CARS--WHATEVER-- WELP---- THAT JUST DOES NOT WORK---AND HERE'S WHY YA'LL...... MOTORS(IN ANYTHING)NEED ---- HARMONY ---- and this means --simply this--- ALL THINGS WITHIN THE MOTOR--ALL THE PARTS--WHATEVER THEY MAY BE---CAMS-PUSHRODS--LIFTERS--ETC.... MST MUST MUST ALL WORK TOGETHER IN BEAUTIFUL HARMONY---AND MUST ALL WORK TOGETHER TO GET TE PEAK PREFORMANCE FROM YOURmotor and it's internal parts !!! JUST PUTTING IN A BIGGER CAM pretty much just sort of is a BIG ASS WASTE OF TIME because ---IF YA DON'T REPLACE ANYTHING ELSE TO GIVE YOUR MOTOR MORE FUEL---AIR---AND OTHER GOODIES--- WELL THEN--- it is JUST NOT GOING TO GAIN ANYTHING FROM YOUR MONEY N WORK ON IT !!! Bigger ported and polished heads---without a slightly bigger cam---really is sort of about the same deal ya'll---EVERYTHING NEEDS TO WORK IN CLOSE RELATION TO AND WITH EACH OTHER---SO AS TO ---GET MAX AND PEAK PREFORMANCE/HORSEPOWER/TORQUE/ ETC....... andrun smoothly/// and never BLOW THE HELL UP OR BREAK DOW YOUR RIDE !!-----ALL IN HARMONY YA'LL---BEAUTIFUL AND WONDERFUL HARMONY---PARTS GO TOGETHER---SO AS TO ALL ACHIEVE THE SAME GOAL !!! GET YA MORE FUEL/AIR/ AND MAKE YOUR MOTOR PURRRRR..... PRODUCE.....AND PULL LIKE HELL !!!! TORQUE IS MORE IMPORTANT TO ME---IT IS WHAT YA FEEL ----HORSEPOWER JUST KEEPSYA GOING---TORQUE IS WHAT IS PULLING YA---TUGGING YA---AND THROWING YOUR HEAD BACK !!!!----SAY IT WITH ME HERE--- HARMONY....HARMONY----GOOD JOB---PEACE
Area under the torque curve is what you want unless you need high RPM HP in a racing application with low gearing.
Great info! I'm looking at upgrading from a Sportster to a 2018 or newer Softail. I know if I buy a 2018-2019 1/2 I'll upgrade the oil pump after I've had the bike for awhile and let whatever remains of any warranty to expire. By then I'll have decided where I want the extra power and which cam to install because I might as well do everything once I'm in there anyway.
Those new Softails are awesome, the sumping issue seems to be on the touring bikes for the most part though. Does happen to some softails as well, dropping a bolt in cam into a M8 really wakes those bikes up!
Thanks for all your vids and commenting back to me a few times you turned me onto fuel moto i got there air cleaner at the beginning of the riding season and just got there 2 into 1 pipe for my 09 electra glide gonna see how this goes for power increase before a cam lol maybe ill be satisfied i doubt it haha
FuelMoto has some excellent combinations that work, a two into one will do a lot for gains! Once you get that put together with your air cleaner you'll be all set for a cam swap!
I'll be happy just to get my M8 to sound like a twin cam
I’ve done a bolt on cam using Feuling Reaper 543 cam on my 2007 Dyna Super Glide. I kept everything stock apart from the S&S quickee pushrods cause I’m lazy and didn’t want to take apart my top end. Yes that includes the inner cam bearings still stock and kept my original tensioner shoes just rotated them to inner cam side since it had some wear and the cam side still looked new. My Dyno guy was impressed by the numbers and shocked that I just used stock parts though I told him I knew that for good measure you should always change the inner cam bearings with new cams but I couldn’t be bothered lol. I ride my bike hard and had no issues. I’ve beaten 2 mid range sports bikes and kept up with V rods off the line pretty impressive for a freeway flyer cam that’s just bolt on. All this is done using the lowest quality fuel which is RON 91 here in Australia 🇦🇺 Definitely recommend doing a cam upgrade for any Harley’s. Economy wise didn’t notice much of a difference when driving sensibly but my bike also has a chain drive conversion using 24 teeth Primary and 55 teeth secondary sprocket which increased my revs on freeway by 500Rpm so it does drink a bit of fuel regardless.
Love the videos though with great knowledge on the topics. Keep up the good work 👍
Thank you, I appreciate it! It sounds like you've done all the right things in there, you don't have to get crazy swapping everything out when it comes to changing the cam. That chain drive conversion makes a huge difference with being able to re-gear the bike!
Thanks, I have been a subscriber for a year now and I find all your videos that I've seen are very informative. I don't ride a lot and I always check my oil cold before I ride and it's always at a normal level. I have a 2018 SG with just under 11k on it. I heard you mention that my oil pump is defective and has been known to cause a sumping issue. My question is, how do I know when I have this issue. Thanks again for all the informative videos you make.
It really tends to happen on long stretches of riding, the oil pools up in the sump and you start to loose power and the bike runs hot.
Gear driven cams S&S oil pump
I guess we'll never see eye to eye on EVO lifters but I'll say it again early Evo motors had lifters in them with a small diameter axle & they did fail the aftermarket fixed that problem with big axle lifters & later Harley followed with big axle lifters ! Cams with fast ramps are hard on lifters no matter what motor it's in . So if you find a low mileage old Evo with small axle lifters change em out ! I have a 04 bagger with 70 k miles on it with 577 cams 10.5 pistons ported heads ,etc 105 HP with a stock cam plate & pump so on that note you are correct not necessary in all cases !
What kills me is even the factory lifters on the Twin Cam, Sportsters and the M8 are all the small axle lifters. Of course with anything Harley they will sell you the larger axle lifters under the Screamin Eagle brand.
I didn’t think economy was a thing, lol.
Maybe a video on where to get an ECM/wiring harness if you are building a bike from scratch. Other than Thunder Max.
I love your videos! I use them to show to my 16 yo son about upgrading his 2013 Super Glide Custom.
Getting a ECM or wiring harness is tough if it's OEM your looking for, Harley has pretty much discontinued those. To get OEM with an ECM you'd be looking for a donor bike, but there is some aftermarket wiring out there.
@@GixxerFoo Other than ThunderMax are there any other ECM replacements?
Great info as always. Personally I like to take care of stuff while I'm there, especially if it's a lot of work to get there. I'd rather spend a little extra $ to save time down the road.
It sucks having to front all the cash up front but it's worth getting it all done at once. Not so bad doing yourself with just time but paying someone that starts adding up.
I feel the same way. Make sure you’re equipped financially to to all the stuff you should to avoid re-visiting the same area. Power likes to find weak spots. When I did the SE 117 kit on my 15 CVO Rushmore I had the heads ported with new guides, seals, springs and keepers. Also added the SE billet cam plate and high pressure oil pump and the numbers from the Dyno came out great. I feel good about the motor for what was done . Oilers and a 3k runout @ 55k doing well. I also run a Fueling vented dipstick for sumping on hard launches as well as an EBS on the intake. Maintenance is cheaper than engines 😀
Going from installing just the cam to the whole boat load is hardly " a little extra ".
Thinking about content, and subjects to discuss, I think you should have split this up into 3 videos, Evo, Twin, and M8 "bare minimum Cam Swaps" since they all have their differences
I follow you just because I saw a video in wich you explained in a way that it's easy for everyone to understand, it's pretty obvious that you are a very knowledgeable guy so thus is my question,I recently bought a 2003 fatboy with just over 9000 miles,it's a carburated one and I would like to increase the power,but I don't have deep pockets,what can I do to increase the power without putting a dent into my pocket,thank you in advance,I enjoy watching your videos .
Awesome, thank you! Basic things like a set of slip on exhaust and an air cleaner is great way to get some more power. Being a 2003 it's likely already got all that, but if it doesn't you can get some decent slip on exhaust and air cleaner from Ebay or Amazon. With the carb it's a lot cheaper to tune than the FI system, all you need is a jet kit and you're good to go.
Could you do a video and if you were given a bike with a 103 twin Kamina, and how you would build it? Maybe do a walk-through and all of the parts that you would use and why?
I could do that, it really depends on which bike with a 103 as far as cam selection but it would be a Wood for sure!
@@GixxerFoo Maybe a bagger? The road glides and electric glides don’t seem to get enough love out there, ha ha!
My thought is if you can't afford to do the cam with all the recommended replacement parts and addons its not worth doing. As you said while you're in there it just makes sense to knock it all out. If you can do the work yourself that saves a good chunk of change. If you have to have a shop do the work then at that point I dont think just a cam upgrade is worth it. May as well go stage 3 with a bore kit if you're already paying a shop to do the cam. In my experience I owned a streetglide with the 103 and stage 1 upgrades. Rode a stage 2 bike with a cam and I wasn't impressed. Certainly not worth the money for stage 2. I havnt ridden a stage 3 or better bike yet.
Doing the work yourself is the way to go! I know I couldn't afford to buy the parts and pay the labor cost to have it done!
I may very well have missed it but i did not here you mention pushrods.
Going adjustable will pay for itself if you are having a shop do the install and imo the time saved if you are doing it yourself is worth the extra cost.
Adjustable push rods are an absolute life saver in time and money. You don't have to open the rocker boxes, but for sure make sure get them adjusted properly. A lot of used bikes you buy cheap that won't start or don't run right, that's the first thing I check is the pushrods to see if they have adjustable ones.
I have a 124 twin cam water cooled heads Dark Horse compensator Baker clutch primary chain adjuster Baker 10 to 1 compression competition roller rockers and Springs dual
This exactly what I wanted to know.
For clarity, I need what parts for; 2021 Harley Fat Boy 114 with 13,000 mi.?
Because, the S&S 475 cam is $250.00 but the "kit" is $1,800.00! Ouch.. There are gaskets, springs, gears all in addition to the plates, pump, and cam.
Cam bearing replacement and lifters especially the HD 99C twin cam lifters is cheap insurance for all of them. Its advisable to also check the crank pinion run out while the cam chest is open. Excessive run out of the pinion is prevalent in the twin cam press fit flywheels and the M8 engine.
The backside of the cam plate will be a indicator of pinion runout with the depth of the witness mark wear from the gearator grinding into the aluminum plate.
In regards to the sumping of the earlier M8. There was what I consider to be a 3 fold cause.
1) poor machining of the engine case for the piston squirters leaking due to slag aluminum remains on the mating surface.
2) weak pop off check ball inside the piston squirter allowing oul spray at idle oil pressure.
3) Not enough scavaging for the engine case. Which S&S addressed with their pump for the M8.
Keep in mind. Any cam swap requires a new ecm tune to compensate for the difference in cam profile
That's some excellent insight right there, Harley's casting process had been know to leave slag, even after machining. Checking run out and the cam plate is a great place to see what's going on, you for sure don't want to install a tight tolerance race plate and oil pump with any kind of runout. The factory cam plate and oil pump have pretty loose tolerances to deal with the crank to some degree.
Wud up Foo! IMHO at minimum with a bolt in cam and nothing else you’ll need a Baisley bypass valve. I always do plate, pump, lifters , bearings at minimum and tune, bike will run much cooler and all around better. Stage two, if done right, you’ll feel the biggest increase in performance. On a side note, going for my second open belt primary, first was an Ultima but now that I’m going bdl, it’s turned into, “well, mind as well rebuild and bearing the whole transmission while I’m in there”. New gear set, bearings, seal, 20 ton press later 🤣 I’m dead serious and it’s the truest statement once you crack one bolt, $100 turns into 5g’s, again lol. Worth every Penny!!
That's the truth once you get started it just keeps going, especially when you get used to the power and want more. So one open primary conversion turns into a entire transmission build, I can see it and I know exactly how that goes!
Dude, I work at the dealership where that cool blue pearl dyna is when hes talking about the engine types in the beginning. That thing is not a pleasent ride
Excellent video! If I have an independant shop do the work what's the approximate cost to do a bolt in cam bearing,cam, lifters, breather and adjustable push rods on an low mileage Evo?Keep up the good work. Thanks
Thank you, I appreciate it!
You make GOOD SENSE as opposed "common" sense which I abhor because I am an uncommon individual.
I have 100,000 miles on my 103 Twin Cam with no engine work and still running the original belt drive.
I change the engine, tyranny (transmission to be clear), and primary every 5,000 miles.
My scooter still runs quite strong and have been pulled over multiple times for going a "couple" miles over the posted speed.
After a certain MPH it becomes difficult to read posted MPH limits and the landscape becomes blurry.
Plus, at those speeds I am not too concerned about what the speedometer is indicating!! 😊
I concur with your "highly recommended" recommendations as I tend to over engineer stuff to avoid going back into places/stuff where I have been.
I abhor backtracking and doing work over for being cheap.
It makes no sense to to change out a cam and not the related parts.
That is as stupid as reusing gaskets that tore on disassembly just to save a couple of dollars.
An old man told me when I was a young boy, "If it is worth doing, it's worth doing right."
Common sense isn't so common, I always get asked can I just do this now and do that later. Yeah, you can but we'll be going back over the same parts again and you'll pay another labor charge for the same thing we already had apart. That's my biggest example of how going cheap even with good parts and not doing it all at once will cost you more in the long run. If you're gonna do it, save your money till can do it all at once like a big bore kit with the cam. Fortunately adjustable push rods have helped a lot of folks out wanting just a cam and saves them some money. I won't do a cam if someone won't pop for 20 bucks worth of bearings cause I won't guarantee the job.
Maybe you could speak on the dangers of lifter to bore clearance in one of your videos.
That's a really good one actually, it's all about pushrod length!
good points
Thank you!
Hey Gixx love your videos. I am having the S&S camchest upgrade kit put into my 2000 Road king. 509c cams. I have the wonderful Magnetti Marelli and I am wondering if I am going to have to remap my EFI. I am not sure how much something like that would cost for a shop to do or if I need to do it at all. Any info would be great. Thank you and ride safe! 😎
Fuel economy on a modified Harley? Who gives a hoot about it! Twist it up and have some fun. I thought that’s why we do it. Maybe it’s just me 🤣
That's what I've always said!
Great info. How bout an air ride comparison. Cheap vs expensive
Great suggestion! There's quite a few options out there for air ride systems and they can get crazy expensive in a hurry.
Really enjoy all your videos I have a 2016 Road king with the 103HO after watching your cam upgrade videos. I am torn between the woods TW222 and the SNS 570 if I'm just doing a bolt on which I believe these are, should I do the camp plate and a new oil pump? The bike only has 8K on the motor so I was looking to do just cams and at 20 K put in new lifters new heads, pushrod, Springs, etc. could you stare me in the right direction that would be great and thanks again for all your content loyal follower
Forgot to mention that looking for more mid range and top end and I have a high flow intake with a set of aftermarket pipes right now there's freedom performance on there, but I have a set of tab performance slip on wondering if I should leave them or put the tabs onwith cam upgrade
do a video on lift benches, im about to buy one
Going with more performance , does it cut down on dependability or longevity. I have a 20/20 tri glide and want to go with a cam just for a little bit more tort I hardly ever get over 2500 RPMs I just cruise 90 % back road riding. 55-60. Mph. Just looking for more low end torque. Love your videos and all the information thank you and keep it coming
If you're keeping it mild with just a bolt in cam it won't reduce longevity. What can hurt reliability and longevity is putting way too much in the motor without matching performance parts and relying on stock components.
I have a 2021 SGS and I’m looking to do a cam upgrade soon. I’ve narrowed down my choices to 1) RS468 or 2) S&S475. What are your thoughts on this. I ride solo most of the time
I have a 2008 Softail deluxe. I want the bike for riding local with trips to the shore. What cam and brand do you prefer? I took notes on your video cams re Woods, fueling, redshift. I'm planning on changing the cam bearing and lifters n pushrods. Will have the tensioner shoes looked at. My year has the hydraulic tensioner. Let me know.
Thanks for your video...i have a 96ci and i bought some lightly used Andrews 37H cams. Do i need a tune immediately after i swap the cams? I was hoping to ride it to a dealer to tune it or should i buy an aftermarket tuner? (which one)
@GixxerFoo i appreciate all your videos and watch them religiously, what are your thoughts on what I need to do a cam upgrade for a 2020 sportster.
Sportster there really isn't much that needs to be done, they are dang near perfect motors. I would swap the steel oil pump drive gear for a bronze one, the lifters if they look good and don't wear marks you can reuse them. Sportsters have a straight push rod angle so no worries there. There's no cam bearings, its all bushings which last damn near forever.
Thank you very much
Nice video, Gixxer! I believe H-D went with the TC design in part in order to improve push-rod geometry, your thoughts? BTW, where did you get your name?
That was actually one of the improvements that went into the twin cam design along with a wider cylinder stud spacing. Years ago I was in a sport bike club and I rode a GSX-R 1000, that's where I got my handle and it's just stuck ever since.
Great Video!
I have a 21 FLHX, M8 107,,,I’ve put 15k miles on it, and love it,,, I am very interested in swapping out the cam, ( im looking at Max Cell 818),,,low to mid torque increase,,, So obviously I’ll get the bearing swapped out,,, money is absolutely a concern,, but like you said,, while I’m paying someone to open her up,, would you recommend lifters and pushrods?, any specific brand?,,, I appreciate any advice,,,
Love the channel! 🏍️
I’ve bought (not yet fitted) an e23 for my ‘99EVO based on wanting low down grunt combined with some mid range wiz for accelerating on the motorway or when I’m feeling frisky. What do you think? (Not about me feeling frisky at 66 y.o. I mean) 😁
Hey Brother thanks for the great tip my Milwaukee 8 114 has 77 hp when I put in my new can what will I gain
We have a wonderful community over here ..
We've got the best viewers out there on YoutTube!
Have a 2015 FLTRXS 103, with 30k miles. It is 100% stock, running Amsoil.
Will be starting to ride 2up soon, wife finally wants to ride with me:)
When the weather warms up some we will be starting to ride 2up. Concern is possible lack of power. I guess I am what they call a short shifter, shift @3k rpm, cruise around 2.8k rpm. Pretty mellow for the most part. Want to be able to get going and pass when needed though.
Looking for ideas on order of what and when to upgrade.
Not sure if I need to get into cams, cam plates lifters and oil pump or is it best to just do these upgrades even if I'm not looking to hot rod around before something fails.
Thinking of air intake , slipons & tune, see how it goes then maybe get into the other stuff.
Just looking for opinions
Thanks for the video & comments.
Hey foo, I need you to do a Video of a cam swap on 103 I think it’ll be great content!!
The 103 is honestly one of the best bikes with stock displacement to do a cam swap on. A good bolt in cam in one of those makes serious gains in both torque and horsepower. Here's a video on the cam swaps in 103's and what they gain ua-cam.com/video/ixeV1wRzsoY/v-deo.html
Timing of video is immoecable. Were u spying on my browser history last night? I has researching parts for my 88 and had these same questions that u answered. Haaaa. Thnx for the info. Went with the Woods TW6 cams.
That's awesome! Glad I could help!
Oh man I'm torn between two cans the TW-6-6 and the TW-222 I do everything right off idle and 4500 rpm I'm going to do the can plate and pump and upgrade everything, but it's the cams.
That's a tough call cause the TW-222 does it all really well across the RPM range. If your wanting your max power before 4500 rpm the TW-6-6 would be the way to go.
Just got my 89" stroker on the road. The old flywheel assembly in my 1998 slipped on the crank pin causing the pinion side flywheel to rub on the engine case (YEAH). I chose an Ultima flywheel assembly and EV27 cam for the build. The jets i now have to run are MASSIVE with this combination but oh well, it's seems like its wanting to run! Can't wait to finish breaking it in and "release the kraken".
That's awesome! Glad to hear that you got that bike on the road! Breaking it in is the absolute hardest part waiting to open it up.
@ Kenneth Wise. A 1998 EVO with a non bolted flywheel?
@@pmaint1 no, the 1998 bikes are prone for the flywheels slipping on the main shaft and slipping. When I measured my pinion run-out it was out .030".
I ended up splitting the cases and was able to loosen the main shaft nut easily with my impact gun, they totally suck....wish I wouldn't have been bitten with the HD bug at such a young age. Sadly this has been the only motorcycle that I've owned over the years. I've had some BMWs also but the European riding style isn't my favorite and their parts are crazy expensive.
@@pmaint1 your right all Evo flywheels are bolted except S & S motors with 4&1/8 bore I rebuild lots of shovels & Evo flywheels I put way more torque on the crankpin nuts & if I got a hotrod rider I weld the nut to crankpin & flywheel the pinion shaft side is keyed so it's always the sprocket shaft side that turns out of true ,!
@@kennethwise7108 I have never heard of a Harley Evo flywheel slipping or scissoring, ever. That was the Evo's strong point. The flywheel is not pressed together like a twin cam.
Like your content very helpful. I'm on the fence between upgrading my 08 twin cam ultra or trading it on a M8 ultra. 🤔
That's tough, cause you can put some money into a Twin Cam and have a very nice built bike and still be way cheaper than a new one. I would for sure ride the M8 and choose which bike feels better, those M8's don't feel anything like a Twin Cam bike.
8,994. for my 05 upgrade to a 103. all new from crank up. went geared cams and geared timing. finished with 103hp and 104tq. I'm happy with 😃 😊.
Just doing camshaft should be fine on an M8? Or do I have to do the lifters and the pushrods and tappets?
Benjamin tree dried out in the backyard so…😂😂 Thanks in advance. My bike is a 2020 and it has that vent on the top right primary cover in the back
I would like to hear your opinion on the Dyna wobble. How likely is it to occur on an older bike (2009) that has low KM (16000) which is roughly 9600 miles.
I just put a woods WM8-22X-E cam in my 2020 ultra limited. It has 3900 miles on it. Do I have to worry about sumping? It made good power. 115 HP and 128 ft lbs of torque
Hey i got a13 breakout lowerd it i was looking into to the 555 knight prowlers by woods what do you think
While in my '07 Dyna installing TW-222 cams I also changed the cam bearings, the hydraulic chain adjusters and added a SE oil pump. However, I did not use Harley lifters. Instead I used Chevy lifters from Comp. Cams(#875). Your thoughts?
They are very similar and I've heard of that being done before, it's also quite a bit cheaper. There's only one small difference, I believe the chevy lifters have a smaller oil galley on their lifter. That's actually a pretty common practice on Harleys.
because of you, I am about to buy a 1993 EVO softail heritage, beautiful bike, great price, and about 45k miles. could you give me some general questions to ask when I go to look at the bike? I would really appreciate it. is 4 grand a good price, or a low price because they may be trying to dump their troubles? lol