The contents of the channel is consistently the closest of all the YT game to what I was extensively thought here in Germany. It’s no BS, safety-first, down-to-earth and physics-based. I love every bit of contents I’ve seen so far. Well done!
A friend of mine crashed his street bike - twice. As a novice rider, he finally took my advice and got a small dirt bike to practice riding techniques. It took only one ride on the dirt bike for him to exclaim that he didn't know how to ride. After several months of riding the dirt bike and becoming an increasingly better rider, he then repaired his damaged bagger and has had no further accidents. He still rides dirt with me because he enjoys it and knows it will continue to make him a better rider.
I learned by ripping around on a pit bike now I've got a road bike too definitely recommend learning on an off road bike somewhere in a field no traffic to worry about
Chinese pit bikes is how I learner. 300cc -125cc bikes (being honest the tdr 300 was better than crf250 and 300l by miles off road but wasn't Road registerable and here bikes get impounded, as it's happened on numerous occasions
cool story.im old fart i have my back pain....not anyone can go to dirt bike. here is another option. Accept in advance you dont know how to ride and go slow enough till you grow together with your bike. Easy
The one downside to staying near the centreline in the first half of the corner is if the corner tightens up. A reducing/tightening radius can mean you drift into the oncoming traffic if you're already at the limits of cornering, and you often can't tell in advance if the corner will do this. So I prefer to leave a couple of feet (0.5m or so) buffer and start the corner in the middle of the tyre tracks, just in case I need a little more room - or if an oncoming vehicle happens to be cutting the corner and crosses the line into your lane (a very common problem I'm finding in rural USA currently)
That is the worst design of corner though, I notice newer roads (anything built in the past 90 years?) are engineered to constant radius, mindful of how dangerous tightening corners are. This all means a rider should be cautious on unfamiliar roads. Explains why I was never a 100% gung ho in the twisties.
@DaaaaaangSon Most motorcyclists ride like this anyway: full knee on the ground into a blind right corner on a mountain road, with 5m visibility limit. You find gravel, sand, dirt, wet, a stationary car, animal/person? You go down. As a rule of thumb, on public roads i never use my tires to the limit, and never lean into the corner to the max, and the cornering speed should allow you to stop the moment you find an obstacle. You also mainly ride in the middle of the lane, since you know, easier to avoid potential problems.
that is why you practice trail braking late apexing is a byproduct of waiting to complete a corner when you actually see the exit - this means you will be safe even if you are near the edge of your lane, since you're not cornering wth maxed out tyres
Pretty much what we are taught in NSW, start wide, finish tight. I start in the outside wheel track and turn in to the middle of the lane when the line on the edge or middle of the road starts turning, go around the corner in the middle of the lane until I can see the exit and when I see the exit I tighten it up. That puts you in the right position for the next corner in a series of left and right corners. It is a bit harder when there are no lane markings but you get used to that.
But staying in the middle of the road early does not allow you to see far into the corner, so you will see any hazard (like oncoming traffic or that the corner is tightening) later than you would if you would have stayed wide initially.
The French Police motorcyclist use and teach that last line you mentioned: on the outside until you see the exit. It takes some getting used to, particularly for left corners, but that’s clearly the safest line!
@@baribalthebear Well, the police probably do. Another trick the police use that many riders do not, is that they counter-lean their bodies. IE: they don't lean their body into the turn, they lean the bike down, but keep their body upright. This reduces the maximum speed you can go through the corner, but vastly increases your control, making it easy to parry tires losing grip and keep going. You also see this among dirt bike riders.
@@OnlyKaerius You also see better into thje corner. I ride like this when i have no visibility. Also, who cares how fast i'm going, i'm not racing anyone on the road.
@@OnlyKaerius This is only valid on relatively slow corners. Like sharp hairpins or in city traffic or parking lots. Don’t do it while driving at a somewhat faster pace. People that are scared to lean while driving faster do this naturally - staying to upright while the bike leans. In fact, they often run wide because of this (because you can’t lean the bike further when needed at some point), or scrape pegs while it’s not needed for the speed they are going. If someone proudly boosts about his pegs scraping, look at the body position - the scraping can be a consequence of bad technique and therefor doesn’t have to be an indication they where going fast through the corner. No, not bad, i should say the wrong technique at inappropriate times, because there are surely situations where the counter-leaning technique is appropriate. That is however not in higher speed corners. If you want to know more about this, there is a good video on it on this channel.
When I started riding I learned this the hard way. Out riding in a state park in twisty roads, I misjudge a corner and turn in too soon. Realizing I'm going to fast and not comfortable enough to lean the bike further I instinctualy try to brake mid corner causing the front to lose grip and I end up low siding into a ditch. Thankfully there was no oncoming traffic and I was able to walk away. The bike only had some scratched up fairings thanks to fame sliders I installed, and a tow was able to help me get the bike out and back on the road. Needless to say, I was lucky and started to practice more, especiallywhat motocontrol is describing here.
I ran wide myself on a tight uphill hairpin at 15 mph. The bike just wouldn't turn. Fortunately, it was just off to the shoulder and never in danger of putting it down due to the slow speed, but it was a "come to Jesus" moment. I looked at the turn, figured out my mistake and went up and down that stretch of road 3 more times to apply the corrections and appropriate techniques. Look through your turn, delay entry and appropriate line, smooth application of first 2-5% of brakes. By the 3rd pass it felt comfortable at 25 mph where the first time at 15 was intimidating. Glad both of us have had learning opportunities without too much pain...Can never practice too much and always be learning and growing. Stay safe!
Yes! It’s time to ditch the miles per hour-17 century stuff. We should all switch to yards per second! 😂. Love your channel dude! Thanks for all the valuable content!
My wife just got the (Swiss) license, and my daughter is preparing for it. "Stay outside, with a safety margin, until you see the end of the corner" was one of the most important advice I gave them. Both frequently get positive feedback about their lines from other riders. One mission acomplished.
@@joeybobbie1 What do you mean? By staying outside, you have a farther view through the corner and a pretty wide radius. And if the corner tightens up ahead, you will 1. see it sooner, and 2. have that safety margin on the inside so you can lean the bike deeper earlier, in order to make a good line that tightens as little as possible. If you're already on the inside of your lane, and your vanishing point starts moving closer, you know the corner gets tighter ahead. But you can't lean deeper yet. You'll run out of your lane. Now you have to turn super tight, once you get there. You might have time to decelerate a bit, but since your view is so short you better be going pretty slow to have reasonable safety margin when you turn in early. That's what he showed in the video, isn't it? What do you see?
Once you master these concepts ,you become faster.Its not the speed but the efficientcy that you have in cornering.Easy in,maintain speed, when the bike is heading toward the exit,hammer on it.Head and eyes up so you look thru the turn.Stay safe.
The "maintain speed" is actually a tricky part for a lot of trail fakers out there. A lot of riders refuse to apply maintenance throttle in the corner until the exit, because it makes the bike stand up. It generally does, if you're at a lean angle more than 25 degrees. (If you doubt this, your bike doesn't do this very much and/or you are countering it subconsciously). While maintaining speed, the bike is self stabilizing, which means it steers itself straight(er). So you need to maintain a bit of countertorque to the bars to hold lean angle. At up to 20-25, just leaning your body is enough to hold lean angle on most bikes. But the force required gets stronger, the deeper you lean. In excess of 35, you'll need to physically put pressure on the bars counter to the direction of the turn, to hold the bike on this line/lean angle. Trail fakers don't know this. They think putting pressure on the bars is scary and bad and will make the front tire lose traction. They rather destabilize the bike, instead, by lightly braking. This makes the bike slowly lean deeper without any pressure on the bars, so they falsely believe it is safer.
Congratulations on the success of your channel! Your production quality has become first class. Your content continues to be focused, relevent and well scripted. Look forward to seeing more of your content in the future.
And this sums up so nicely why trail braking is so very effective! The delayed apex model is definitely the way to go! It's safer, allows for a faster exit, allows for better visibility up the road, and also preloads the bike with the weight shifted onto the front tire for more effective and efficient slowing, if necessary. Great explanation!! And the math doesn't lie!! Thanks for that!! I'm looking forward to the next video on this topic! Ride safe, ride well, and ride often!
This actually shows why trail braking is NOT commonly useful in street cornering, at least not at higher cornering speeds. There's a detail he hasn't explained, yet. If you're entering this corner at a relatively high speed, there's only one way to make the late entry line he drew. You need to lean the bike over in a very brief time. To make the bike go from a straight line then immediately to a circular radius, you need to lean the bike instantly. That's not possible, but quickflicking the bike as fast as you can will get you close to that. So at a high rate of speed, you will flick the bike as late and fast as you can. If you tied to turn in that late, and just smoothly/slowly lean the bike, you'd run wide out of your lane. If you insist on leaning the bike slowly/smoothly, you would need to turn in way earlier and you'd either end up on the inside of your lane, or you'd have to keep braking to get back to the outside. So that's not ideal. If you're flicking the bike deep, you would want to be off the brakes by the time you finish. Including your engine brakes. So you'd roll throttle on as or even before you flick. If you're not reaching a very deep lean angle, it would be possible to drag brakes while you lean the bike fast and late. And mabe you can make this line. But why would you want to hold brakes, if you actually manage to make the line he suggests? That would be spending your traction points on something you don't need to buy. Just because you have traction leftover doesn't mean you should spend it, especially on going slower. The idea of safe cornering is to use the least amount of traction as possible to go the fastest you can, with the caveat of also wanting the best/farthest visibility through the corner. By turning in late and wide, you have space to deal with problems. If the corner tightens up ahead, you'll know it before you get there. Your vanishing point will move closer to you, and you'll know the corner tightens X seconds ahead. Because you have left yourself space to the inside, you can just make the bike lean deeper now, until you're on a good line. So you won't need to use brakes to make the bike turn tighter.
This is actually ridiculously interesting and I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone else mathematically do the work to show people what's happening. Countless videos of line selection and crashes due to line selection, but I appreciate you standing out doing your own thing here. The difference is extremely noticeable, and I hope newer riders appreciate the work that was put into this vid.
Mindset successfully shifted sir. Until this video I didn’t understand why drawing the lines mentioned mattered. I just thought I was skilled enough to take the corner on any line I wanted (for the sake of the challenge) because I was never going wide. I’m taking a trip in a few weeks and will ride on twisty roads and DEFINITELY needed this video. ❤
I often feel im entering too fast, so i ease off throttle to try delayed apex. Then i feel i slowed too much and not carrying enough speed entering, so i accelerate again a bit,ease off, then accelerate hard when i see exit. But it seems im messing about too much on off on off on the gas and not as smooth as i would like, then i hate myself. Hope you can overstand what im saying. Your the best teacher, my favourite for sure.
We all do that in street riding (except hating ourselves). It's probably 100% and that's a good thing. It means you're leaving enough safety in reserve in order to negotiate you and your bike through the turn. However, this does leave one very bad habit; street riders often open the throttle while leaning the bike over (I used to do that!) which means you're greatly increasing your chances of a low side. Most low sides on UA-cam that occur on the street are from this bad habit of losing the rear while on throttle, while most racing low sides are from sliding the front tire.
@langhamp8912 thank you for your comment I do feel better now that I'm not alone. Did it take long to break that habit of throttling whilst leaned over? So the moral of the story delayed apex and awareness of throttle imput and lean angle ? I'm going touring this week for the first time and look for wards to applying the teachings.
Late apex can feel like the corner entry is too slow on wider radius curves that carry a maintenance speed longer. On switchbacks it's the fastest way to get your sight line back get the bike turned with any amount of lean you are comfortable with and then get back on the throttle aggressively because your exit is a straighter shot. It's the safest way to go for sure and even if you decelerate more than needed to carry brakes in deep you should still practice decelerating deeper into the turn or carrying a little brake up until tip in and trail it off. You'll get used to it. It's a necessity to learn this for downhill switchbacks and decreasing radius turns if you want to maximize sight and control.
@ApexEater thank you so much, a brilliant explanation. I over stand so much more from what you are saying. I am really pleased with the responses and can't wait to go out on my bike and try it out today.
If you feel the need to either be decelerating or accelerating, it could be because you don't know how to steer, yet. You might feel like as soon as you apply throttle, the bike stands up a bit. And to lean deeper, you feel like you need to let off throttle and/or even add some brake. So you waffle between the two. When you open throttle at a deep lean angle, yes. The bike will try to stand up a bit. Just apply and hold some countertorque (pressure in the opposite direction to the corner) in order to hold the bike at this lean angle. As long as you're not accelerating significantly, this is not dangerous. The pressure you're putting on the bars isn't "fighting the bike" and it does not detract from your grip. Whenever the bike is maintaining speed, it is self-stabilizing. This means it steers itself to go straight/straighter. You just need to keep some pressure on the bars to prevent this from happening. It's just part of steering. Learn to steer the bike while in maintenance throttle... neither accelerating nor decelerating. To add lean while in maintenance throttle, depends on the bike. On stable steering bikes, you will need to sorta make a little countertwitch. Hurry up and figure this out. It's important for your safety and cornering skill. Once you know how, steering with the bars while maintaining throttle is always faster than trying to close throttle first to make the bike slowly/eventually lean more. Um hard disagree on lowsides. Most lowsides by street riders are because of cornering deeply on a CLOSED throttle. This will cause loss of rear traction due to the engine braking, especially when you have the bike in the powerband. When accelerating too hard, most riders do this as the exit opens up and the bike isn't leaned super far. This usually results in highside crashes. On track, yes. Most lowsides are loss of front tire while using front brake. Aside from being common sense to not accelerate hard when leaned deeply, doing so makes your line open up wider, unless you intermittently steer the bike deeper and deeper while you do it. So in addition to common sense, it would be extra complicated to do that before the exit opens up, even if you had traction to spare for this very inefficient purpose of trying to gain back a tenth of the time you lost by not just entering the corner faster to begin with.
This video is so nerdy...I LOVE IT! I can't tell how much my riding has improved since I found this channel a year ago and started understanting the physics behind riding. I've not only got to learn, but understand how to ride and why. Really, can't say thank you enough, Andrei!
It's not just motorcyclists, I see people turn in too early all the time in cars, frequently cornering slowly but still crossing the centre line. This kind of bad cornering becomes embedded in the subconscious mind, and if these people are confronted with oncoming traffic the switch from subconscious to executive function is too slow for them to respond and get to the correct side of road in time.
Excellent demonstration and overall video. This is the type of physic based advice which is all to often missing when trying to improve our riding. One of the top videos I’ve seen by a long shot. Much appreciated.
im currently taking lessons for my motorcycle license and this channel is helping me out alot, such clear and simple explenation to understand when you dont already understand the topic hes talking about. im really glad i came across this channel
Biggest part of bends is being able to stop in the distance you can see. I was taught to turn in late and to stay wide to see what’s coming towards you. You then have the longest time to either stop or move away from oncoming vehicles. One touch from an oncoming car or lorry and it’s game over.
Hello! I am very new to the world of motorcycle and I didn’t have anyone to teach me. I rode a scooter before upgrading to a bike and didn’t know how to operate the clutch and use the gears. I stumbled upon your channel and I give all my credit to you. Your channel helped me learn everything I know about motorcycles today, the gears, the clutch, the brakes especially slow speed manoeuver. I still watch your videos because I’m still learning and I appreciate your effort. You make your lessons easy to understand and also make it sound simple which encourages one to do it without fear and also, your accent is very entertaining.
The most difficult corners for a motorcyclist, are long tightening radius curves. These are often at dual-carriageway exits, which try to fit the biggest change of direction into the smallest possible space. They begin was a slightly curving slip road, before embarking on a G-force battle with the bike and foot pegs. Add spilt diesel from over-filled lorries, and an impossible to see exit of up to 360 degrees, for a white knuckle ride.
i thought that was basic knowledge. back then, during training for my motorcycle license we were taught that when we are taking a turn above 35km/h, we must stay on the outside, and plunge towards the inner side (the apex) as soon as we see the exit of the turn.
Seems like this used to be common knowledge, but too many riders can't actually do it like this. They turn in too early and slowly, then they become instructors and teach people how to ride like them. Turning in too early and braking to compensate/correct.
@@rooney1680 You don't need to see the exit to lean the bike enough to match the radius that you can already see. For all you know the corner could be an infinite corkscrew that never ends. Just wait and turn in late enough where you can lean the bike all the way to match the curve that you can see AND stay towards the outer middle part of the lane. If the corner tightens later, you can handle it, so long as you enter the corner properly and maintained some track space to the inside. When you turn in too early, you can't match the radius of the corner, yet. You'd run off the inside of your lane. So you brake instead. If you waited and turned in later, you wouldn't have to do that. Riders who can't lean the bike in fast have to turn in early and find it helpful to brake into corners. But these riders will never be able to take corners as fast as the rider who can quick flick into them.
I m no expert but I learned one rule that saved me in many situations, always look at the exit of the turn, do not look at the side or elsewhere, just at the exit and you naturally steer the bike or any other vehicle to the correct line
Amazing, well explained. Also i can pat myself on the back for doing this intuitively already, I only attempt to take a perfect turn at high speed when I can either see the whole turn with no oncoming traffic or I've ridden that turn tens of times. Otherwise "late apex", preload front suspension w a touch of brake, peek into the corner and once I can guess the max. curvature then let the bike eat.
As, an engineer and a rider myself, I find this video a pleasure to watch. Not only does this video reminds me of my physics and math in my college days but also teaches me to ride safely around bends.
I decided to give you something financially, because watching your videos pushed me to start exercising my slow riding motorcycle skills. At 75 I'm not a fan of high speed anymore, but being safer on the road, specially in a big town like Toronto is never ending learning process and your videos helped. Thank you with joining your Patreon channel. I also wanted to congratulate you on your hairstyle. :)
Took me a while to learn this in the past and it works out really good for me. Late apex till I see the exit and GO! At the late apex, As soon as the lines on the road start to straighten up, I know the road ahead is getting straight so I can pick up the bike and accelerate. Worked well for me over the years...
Great job describing one of the most common and potentially lethal scenarios which can be avoided precisely as you describe with great clarity. You will save many lives with this video. I have shared it with my motorcycle club.... Bravo ...
Have you seen Bret Tkacs's video on this? He explicitly talks against the idea of an apex on public roads and advises that vision should be the limiting factor (e.g. you are on the brake until you can point your bike at the exit of the corner). I think your ideas very much align, but the explanations are different - and both very nuanced and valuable.
There will be a separate part on vision. Initially I wanted to make an all-in-one vid, but once I realized the first part only is already more then 10 minutes long, I decided to split this topic into several parts🙂
Bret is right in so far, that on unfamiliar roads there is no way of telling where the apex is going to be. You will know it once the corner is over.... So for unfamiliar roads the only tool you have is. vision
On the "best" line he shows, the apex is completely optional. Once you can see the exit and that it's clear, you can steer the bike into a slightly deeper lean to clip the inside line, only if you want to. You can just stay in the middle of your lane by doing nothing.
I you rewatch Bret's video, he briefly mentions that "not all riders can lean the bike quickly." This is the crux of the matter. In order to make the line that is shown in THIS video, turning in late and staying wide, you need to lean the bike very quickly. I.e. quick flick. This is pretty easy to learn on some (track) bikes. It's more tricky on many road bikes. So for riders who can't do this yet (or maybe ever), they can't make the "good line" in this video at higher entry speed. If your rate of lean is too slow, you have to turn in early and you end up on the inside of your lane way early. And this is where it helps to continue to brake, in case the corner tightens. If you were able to turn in late and quick to stay wide, and you see the corner tightens up ahead, you would have plenty of space to the inside to simply lean the bike deeper, earlier, to tighten your radius the minimum amount in order to make it. If you're already on your inside line, even when you can see the corner is going to tighten up ahead, you can't lean deeper yet. You'll go out of your lane. You have to wait until you get there, then you have to turn way tighter, using up more of your spare traction. You might not even be able to lean the bike quick enough to stay in your lane, due to the angle. This is the rider who benefits from trail braking on the street. Like Bret says, not everyone can lean their bike in quickly (to make the safer, faster lines shown in this video).
Very plausible and easy to understand. I like in particular the videos showing the lines in real time view - this makes it so much more relatable. Well done Mate.
Hey! Thanks for your videos! I just started riding this Monday. Your videos helped me a lot when I started gathering money last November lol Gonna do the drills now with your routine next month!
Excellent discussion! 8:00 Early apex makes you run wide. Early apex an increasing radius corner, late apex a decreasing radius corner. 10:08 is a nice picture of a good line.
Aside from myself, you're the only motorcyclist I know that actually does the math on motorcycle stuff. I'll certainly seek out an opportunity to take a on-site class with you. Though I'd rather do trail braking and use the brakes to steer the bike, like they teach in Champ School.
@@dennytuma and it was a great video indeed. Though one is tied to the other. It's suggested that you enter late on the turn because if you misjudge the turn and enter too early you're going to be too fast inside of the turn. But if you learn trail braking, you actually become able to fix your speed inside of the turn, so that you don't need to enter late.
At driving school, I was told that I should drive the corner late until I see the exit and then accelerate. *But here, APEX is explained to one simply and perfectly!* My favorite channel since I started riding motorcycle again.
But how do you know the apex until you can see the exit? Cornering late with trail braking into the corner allows you greater visibility of the entire corner to plan the corner, and greater control to manage your line through the corner as you only ease up on the brake and start to accelerate once you see the exit
fantastic work! the trend w/ trail-braking on so many (even large) channels is so disappointing given how dangerous it is for new(er) riders. i've watched dozens of videos trying to explain in numerous ways how it's safer while in reality it's an advanced technique for late braking. the safest way to corner is to go in slower than you think you should, maintain the outside line like this video shows (but not too close to incoming traffic just in case the corner tightens even more on badly designed roads) till you see the corner exit and then either maintain speed or even slightly accelerate as you complete the corner. there are many riders who 'went around the globe' w/o any (stupid) accidents. luck plays a role but it appears some 'type' of riders seem to have way more luck than others. think about that for a while. be nice ride safe and have fun when possible :) ---------------------- ps: in case of an emergency don't be afraid to swerve aggressively. modern tires have more than enough grip, they don't really need the extra help from all kinds of 'race techniques' such as trail braking. push firmly on the handlebars and *force* yourself to look at the 'safe path' not at the 'obstacle'. practice swerving in a safe setting, you will be shocked how quick and firm modern tires can change direction of the bike. practice braking, practice slow speed maneuvers... you want to be able to work the controls of the bike and your balance w/o having to think about your actions. because in an emergency you don't have time to think and your body knows it so it switches to 'instinct mode' but the 'natural instinct moves' are in many cases counterproductive on two wheels. long story short, training the 'reflexes' is the safest thing a rider can do. it takes many many repetitions so have patience w/ yourself. do a little experiment for yourself, this will change your attitude: move your toothbrush to a new location. count how many days it takes for you to stop reaching for the 'old location'.
Excellent explanation of one of our most critical riding skills. It's over-simplified to blame crashes in turns on too much speed, without considering technique (line choice). Thank you for filtering much of the mud out of the water on this topic.
Very valuable information, great explanation and animation! It's important to note that you still have to be very aware of oncoming traffic when you're close to the middle line until you're at the apex. I usually try to ride a late apex line but sometimes have to trailbrake and move to the middle of my lane because oncoming cars or bikes are occasionly cutting the corner..
I've seen a lot of videos on UA-cam explaining how to best corner on a motorcycle and this one is the easiest to understand. Very well done. Thanks Dude.
What I am seeing so much of in these examples is target fixation, the rider stops focusing on the exit of the corner, and focuses on the side of the road, an obstacle, what ever they feel threatened by, and then because they are looking at it, they ride right into it. There is no reason why they could not have corrected the turn by leaning more, backing off the throttle, and/or trailing the brake as they entered the corner. The thing is too, you never want to be anywhere near 100% cornering speed on the street anyways, as it gives you not only no margin for error, but it also gives you no room to react to the unexpected like say an animal, or some oncoming idiot passing in a blind corner, or anything on the road that could hurt traction.
Target fixation might be part of it, but it's clear in some of these examples that the curve gets tighter, and the rider did not stay wide enough to easily deal with it. Rider turned in early. By turning in early, you can't tell when the corner is getting tighter up ahead you're almost there, since your view is so short. And since you're so close to your inside line, if you simply leaned more, now, you'd cross over the line (into oncoming traffic or off the road) to make it. So you have to lean a lot more in a shorter time, when you get there. In a lot of these examples, the rider could have made it by leaning deeper, but if they could take a better line they would have been way more confident to try, not having to reach as deep into their spare traction or psychological lean angle limitation.
If you’re having fun and being safe you’re doing it right. Later on when you meet up in one piece for coffee you’re free to embellish your speed all you want. 😂 More than one rider has been known to do it. It’s a different story if you’re racing MotoGP where people can see you.
I read a book that spends some chapters on cornering, and I had a very experienced and good rider show me the best way to corner. But your video made it even more understandable - thanks a lot!
One problem as you say it's the vision you have. If you have no vision imo, you should not go that very wide, because cars tend tu cut corners. You should try to find a perfect moment between not too earl and not too late, so you can avoid this kind of situation. Idk if I am right, so please correct me if I'm wrong but that's my point of view
Good stuff 👍🏻 The other good thing about using a late apex is that you open the corner up, you can see further around the corner. The riders in the videos all started turning early, none were actually using anything like the available grip and have panicked, on the sort of bikes shown, using the rear brake would've settle the bike, lose speed and give the riders confidence they could make the corner. Learn stuff and practice it, I'm still practicing after 43 years of riding !
Brilliant explanation. Without knowing all the facts I've always favoured the late apex simply because it gives you the best vision of the corner. Added to that, i've always chosen good-handling bikes so that I can lean it further over if the corner is much tighter than I was expecting. A cruiser-rider may not be able to do this due to ground-clearance issues. Some beginners seem to run out of courage first and won't lay the bike over as far as it needs to go.
He has really turn us from newbies to rookies, futures videos we will gain accurate knowledge. Always keep learning from his great videos. Great work for the motorcycle community
This was great! I have watched many car racing tutorials but NO ONE has explained it with the radius like this. As an engineer this approach was awesome. Thanks for great video!
You my friend are unbelievably good with explanation and teaching. I just had similar situation on the road, luckily there was no car in opposite lane. I perfectly understood why it happened and how to avoid it. This videos will save lifes. Thank you, spasiba!
Good stuff. The more you learn and understand the better. If a rider is taking a corner at 65kph, and is at 50% of their skill level, if something happens there is a margin of error to potentially save your life. If another rider is taking the same corner at 30kph but is at 95% of their skill level, if anything goes wrong, there is no skill margin to save your ass.
This is great. I've been riding for two years and now I finally understand the principles behind the perfect line and late entry. Please also cover trail braking. It is very difficult to brake a leaned bike without disrupting its balance, but if there is some brake pressure on corner entry, it is much easier to increase or reduce it mid-corner
Late apex is a good idea. What helped me was also knowing to direct one's vision (gaze). If one is running out of road, the tendency is to target-focus on the danger (anticipated point of crash) rather than forcing oneself to look where you want to go (the exit of the turn). AND, when approaching the corner, if you can't see the exit, slow down with an extra margin of safety before entering the turn and only increase speed when the bike is pointing toward the exit.
This vid is spot on - I’ve done a couple of days with the British Police, who take the outside line for corner visibility (but tend not to brake much at all) and a day on track with the IAM, where they put cones out to mark the braking target for turn in to hit the late apex’ on Thruxton and encouraged later but firmer braking to get a line where the late apex allowed standing the bike up & getting on the power again sooner on the exit. One thing neither training day covered was the detailed numbers covered here - really a very good video.
In France the gendarmerie nationale offers free training to every bike driver. They name this way to get in and out of a corner a "security trajectory". Love your vidéos 🤩
This exact scenario plays out in your car or truck for most turns as well but most people tend to not notice. When you're in the wrong arc you have to readjust to stay in the lane. But if you nail the perfect arc going around to curve you can feel the vehicle pull you right through and it's a beautiful thing.
Very informative nice video. I was taught by my teacher while doing an advanced course for safe driving to follow a simple rule to never crash on a corner: "Take it a little slower than the speed you actually think you can, adjusting the speed before entering, hit the gas only once you see the exit". But let's be real, I think that 99% of every driver knows already how to drive safely, the problem always is our stupid ego when it kicks into high gear and makes you thirsty for more adrenaline or wanting to prove something...
Well done! I have just found your channel - this is what is being taught in the Advanced Rider Training in NZ (Ride Forever Gold Courses). I have been to 8 of them and enjoy them for a great day out on the bike with lots of rural roads and new corners. The same rule applies to the outside lane - staying wide until you can see the road ahead and then turn in tighter and accelerate out. People do not like riding wide on the outside lane but more practice helps. Thanks!!
Don't fear the lean or the brake! Some discussion of 'trail braking' and looking through the turn would've made this video perfect. Great channel and content!
Awesome explanation. I always see new people getting into the track and they're so concerned with body position that they don't take the time to learn and understand the lines. Eventually they'll be pushing as hard as A group riders, but running 5-10 seconds slower. The reason is normally lines. .5-1 second here and there over 26 corners really adds up!
The final technique described is also what they teach you when you get your motorcycle license in the Netherlands. Good and detailed explanation that I hope saves many from crashing all over the world.
Great! It's almost the same trajectory as the one now taught in driving schools here in France, called "trajectoire de sécurité" (safety trajectory) and also used by the police on motorcycles: you adapt your speed in the straight before entering the corner, then instead of cutting the corner like on a circuit, you shift to the outside of the corner to see as far as possible, and once in the corner, as soon as you see the exit, you shift to the inside of the corner and resume your speed. It's precisely because the police are fed up with motorcyclists riding on the road like on a racetrack, cutting corners, that this completely opposite trajectory is now teached.
Late apex driving was taught me in a professional high speed driving course for cars. It makes your driving much more consistent, thus safer, with a higher margin of error and also allowing to accelerate earlier after having cleared the corner. Will apply to my motorcycle riding now, too. Thanks for the video!
I also learnt to never take corners like that, because you should always be in a position to where you dont have to change your position if there is oncomming traffic in the middle of the corner.
No doubts - best explanation of ideal track line I have ever seen. Highly informative, interesting and entertaining content. 10/10 will watch it again.
That was the best explanation of lines to take into a turn I've ever seen.
Agreed! Very helpful!
Agree. Learned a lot and will try to implement this knowledge into my riding.
Me too!
I agree.
Forget about lines. Learn how to ride...
This is the best motorcycle riding education channel.
By far
and not a single word about counter-steering and how you should steer towards corner. but probably it is in another video
@@FromZeroToHeroUS yeah this is pretty focused on the line. Counter steering is table stakes for everyone but Harley riders.
Good information and no big ego like some of the Americans
I agree😊
The contents of the channel is consistently the closest of all the YT game to what I was extensively thought here in Germany. It’s no BS, safety-first, down-to-earth and physics-based. I love every bit of contents I’ve seen so far. Well done!
A friend of mine crashed his street bike - twice. As a novice rider, he finally took my advice and got a small dirt bike to practice riding techniques. It took only one ride on the dirt bike for him to exclaim that he didn't know how to ride. After several months of riding the dirt bike and becoming an increasingly better rider, he then repaired his damaged bagger and has had no further accidents. He still rides dirt with me because he enjoys it and knows it will continue to make him a better rider.
Dirt bikes offer the best schooling.
I learned by ripping around on a pit bike now I've got a road bike too definitely recommend learning on an off road bike somewhere in a field no traffic to worry about
Dirt bikes will take any rider to school.
Chinese pit bikes is how I learner. 300cc -125cc bikes (being honest the tdr 300 was better than crf250 and 300l by miles off road but wasn't Road registerable and here bikes get impounded, as it's happened on numerous occasions
cool story.im old fart i have my back pain....not anyone can go to dirt bike. here is another option. Accept in advance you dont know how to ride and go slow enough till you grow together with your bike. Easy
The one downside to staying near the centreline in the first half of the corner is if the corner tightens up. A reducing/tightening radius can mean you drift into the oncoming traffic if you're already at the limits of cornering, and you often can't tell in advance if the corner will do this. So I prefer to leave a couple of feet (0.5m or so) buffer and start the corner in the middle of the tyre tracks, just in case I need a little more room - or if an oncoming vehicle happens to be cutting the corner and crosses the line into your lane (a very common problem I'm finding in rural USA currently)
That is the worst design of corner though, I notice newer roads (anything built in the past 90 years?) are engineered to constant radius, mindful of how dangerous tightening corners are. This all means a rider should be cautious on unfamiliar roads. Explains why I was never a 100% gung ho in the twisties.
@DaaaaaangSon Most motorcyclists ride like this anyway: full knee on the ground into a blind right corner on a mountain road, with 5m visibility limit. You find gravel, sand, dirt, wet, a stationary car, animal/person? You go down.
As a rule of thumb, on public roads i never use my tires to the limit, and never lean into the corner to the max, and the cornering speed should allow you to stop the moment you find an obstacle. You also mainly ride in the middle of the lane, since you know, easier to avoid potential problems.
that is why you practice trail braking
late apexing is a byproduct of waiting to complete a corner when you actually see the exit - this means you will be safe even if you are near the edge of your lane, since you're not cornering wth maxed out tyres
Pretty much what we are taught in NSW, start wide, finish tight. I start in the outside wheel track and turn in to the middle of the lane when the line on the edge or middle of the road starts turning, go around the corner in the middle of the lane until I can see the exit and when I see the exit I tighten it up. That puts you in the right position for the next corner in a series of left and right corners. It is a bit harder when there are no lane markings but you get used to that.
But staying in the middle of the road early does not allow you to see far into the corner, so you will see any hazard (like oncoming traffic or that the corner is tightening) later than you would if you would have stayed wide initially.
The French Police motorcyclist use and teach that last line you mentioned: on the outside until you see the exit.
It takes some getting used to, particularly for left corners, but that’s clearly the safest line!
The problem is that although they teach it, I don't see many French riders applying it on the road everyday!
@@baribalthebear Well, the police probably do.
Another trick the police use that many riders do not, is that they counter-lean their bodies. IE: they don't lean their body into the turn, they lean the bike down, but keep their body upright. This reduces the maximum speed you can go through the corner, but vastly increases your control, making it easy to parry tires losing grip and keep going. You also see this among dirt bike riders.
@@baribalthebear They teach it to the Police and Gendarmerie, not to the regular rider.
@@OnlyKaerius You also see better into thje corner. I ride like this when i have no visibility. Also, who cares how fast i'm going, i'm not racing anyone on the road.
@@OnlyKaerius This is only valid on relatively slow corners. Like sharp hairpins or in city traffic or parking lots. Don’t do it while driving at a somewhat faster pace. People that are scared to lean while driving faster do this naturally - staying to upright while the bike leans. In fact, they often run wide because of this (because you can’t lean the bike further when needed at some point), or scrape pegs while it’s not needed for the speed they are going.
If someone proudly boosts about his pegs scraping, look at the body position - the scraping can be a consequence of bad technique and therefor doesn’t have to be an indication they where going fast through the corner. No, not bad, i should say the wrong technique at inappropriate times, because there are surely situations where the counter-leaning technique is appropriate. That is however not in higher speed corners. If you want to know more about this, there is a good video on it on this channel.
95% of all corner issues are problems in the head, not running out of physics
100%
100%
Valid!
Yes, and "problems in the head" include being unable or unwilling to use some effing common sense.
Facts!
This should be mandatory viewing for any street rider!
Damn, man! You nailed it! Learned a lot! Greetings from Latvia!
When I started riding I learned this the hard way. Out riding in a state park in twisty roads, I misjudge a corner and turn in too soon. Realizing I'm going to fast and not comfortable enough to lean the bike further I instinctualy try to brake mid corner causing the front to lose grip and I end up low siding into a ditch.
Thankfully there was no oncoming traffic and I was able to walk away. The bike only had some scratched up fairings thanks to fame sliders I installed, and a tow was able to help me get the bike out and back on the road. Needless to say, I was lucky and started to practice more, especiallywhat motocontrol is describing here.
I ran wide myself on a tight uphill hairpin at 15 mph. The bike just wouldn't turn. Fortunately, it was just off to the shoulder and never in danger of putting it down due to the slow speed, but it was a "come to Jesus" moment. I looked at the turn, figured out my mistake and went up and down that stretch of road 3 more times to apply the corrections and appropriate techniques. Look through your turn, delay entry and appropriate line, smooth application of first 2-5% of brakes. By the 3rd pass it felt comfortable at 25 mph where the first time at 15 was intimidating. Glad both of us have had learning opportunities without too much pain...Can never practice too much and always be learning and growing. Stay safe!
Yes! It’s time to ditch the miles per hour-17 century stuff. We should all switch to yards per second! 😂.
Love your channel dude! Thanks for all the valuable content!
We all know, Furlongs per Fortnight are the new KPH.
The mile is a Roman system of measurement so older than 17th century
You had me going for a sentence then , phew.
I think furlongs per inch of candle.
@@sleepyrasta420not exactly: a Roman mile is/ was 1620 yards and a modern mile as used in uk atm is 1760 yards.
감사합니다.
정말 고마워 친구! Thanks a lot, mate!😁
My wife just got the (Swiss) license, and my daughter is preparing for it. "Stay outside, with a safety margin, until you see the end of the corner" was one of the most important advice I gave them.
Both frequently get positive feedback about their lines from other riders. One mission acomplished.
That’s not a good line that you taught them. You need to watch the Video again…
@@joeybobbie1 What do you mean?
By staying outside, you have a farther view through the corner and a pretty wide radius. And if the corner tightens up ahead, you will 1. see it sooner, and 2. have that safety margin on the inside so you can lean the bike deeper earlier, in order to make a good line that tightens as little as possible.
If you're already on the inside of your lane, and your vanishing point starts moving closer, you know the corner gets tighter ahead. But you can't lean deeper yet. You'll run out of your lane. Now you have to turn super tight, once you get there. You might have time to decelerate a bit, but since your view is so short you better be going pretty slow to have reasonable safety margin when you turn in early. That's what he showed in the video, isn't it? What do you see?
Once you master these concepts ,you become faster.Its not the speed but the efficientcy that you have in cornering.Easy in,maintain speed, when the bike is heading toward the exit,hammer on it.Head and eyes up so you look thru the turn.Stay safe.
The "maintain speed" is actually a tricky part for a lot of trail fakers out there. A lot of riders refuse to apply maintenance throttle in the corner until the exit, because it makes the bike stand up. It generally does, if you're at a lean angle more than 25 degrees. (If you doubt this, your bike doesn't do this very much and/or you are countering it subconsciously).
While maintaining speed, the bike is self stabilizing, which means it steers itself straight(er). So you need to maintain a bit of countertorque to the bars to hold lean angle. At up to 20-25, just leaning your body is enough to hold lean angle on most bikes. But the force required gets stronger, the deeper you lean. In excess of 35, you'll need to physically put pressure on the bars counter to the direction of the turn, to hold the bike on this line/lean angle.
Trail fakers don't know this. They think putting pressure on the bars is scary and bad and will make the front tire lose traction. They rather destabilize the bike, instead, by lightly braking. This makes the bike slowly lean deeper without any pressure on the bars, so they falsely believe it is safer.
Congratulations on the success of your channel! Your production quality has become first class. Your content continues to be focused, relevent and well scripted. Look forward to seeing more of your content in the future.
And this sums up so nicely why trail braking is so very effective! The delayed apex model is definitely the way to go! It's safer, allows for a faster exit, allows for better visibility up the road, and also preloads the bike with the weight shifted onto the front tire for more effective and efficient slowing, if necessary. Great explanation!! And the math doesn't lie!! Thanks for that!! I'm looking forward to the next video on this topic! Ride safe, ride well, and ride often!
This actually shows why trail braking is NOT commonly useful in street cornering, at least not at higher cornering speeds.
There's a detail he hasn't explained, yet. If you're entering this corner at a relatively high speed, there's only one way to make the late entry line he drew. You need to lean the bike over in a very brief time. To make the bike go from a straight line then immediately to a circular radius, you need to lean the bike instantly. That's not possible, but quickflicking the bike as fast as you can will get you close to that. So at a high rate of speed, you will flick the bike as late and fast as you can.
If you tied to turn in that late, and just smoothly/slowly lean the bike, you'd run wide out of your lane. If you insist on leaning the bike slowly/smoothly, you would need to turn in way earlier and you'd either end up on the inside of your lane, or you'd have to keep braking to get back to the outside. So that's not ideal.
If you're flicking the bike deep, you would want to be off the brakes by the time you finish. Including your engine brakes. So you'd roll throttle on as or even before you flick.
If you're not reaching a very deep lean angle, it would be possible to drag brakes while you lean the bike fast and late. And mabe you can make this line. But why would you want to hold brakes, if you actually manage to make the line he suggests? That would be spending your traction points on something you don't need to buy. Just because you have traction leftover doesn't mean you should spend it, especially on going slower.
The idea of safe cornering is to use the least amount of traction as possible to go the fastest you can, with the caveat of also wanting the best/farthest visibility through the corner. By turning in late and wide, you have space to deal with problems. If the corner tightens up ahead, you'll know it before you get there. Your vanishing point will move closer to you, and you'll know the corner tightens X seconds ahead. Because you have left yourself space to the inside, you can just make the bike lean deeper now, until you're on a good line. So you won't need to use brakes to make the bike turn tighter.
This is actually ridiculously interesting and I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone else mathematically do the work to show people what's happening. Countless videos of line selection and crashes due to line selection, but I appreciate you standing out doing your own thing here. The difference is extremely noticeable, and I hope newer riders appreciate the work that was put into this vid.
Hell yeah! This is slowly becoming my favorite UA-cam place for motorcycle skills :)
Mindset successfully shifted sir. Until this video I didn’t understand why drawing the lines mentioned mattered. I just thought I was skilled enough to take the corner on any line I wanted (for the sake of the challenge) because I was never going wide. I’m taking a trip in a few weeks and will ride on twisty roads and DEFINITELY needed this video. ❤
10/10, should be made mandatory to watch when getting a motorcycle license.
I often feel im entering too fast, so i ease off throttle to try delayed apex. Then i feel i slowed too much and not carrying enough speed entering, so i accelerate again a bit,ease off, then accelerate hard when i see exit. But it seems im messing about too much on off on off on the gas and not as smooth as i would like, then i hate myself.
Hope you can overstand what im saying.
Your the best teacher, my favourite for sure.
We all do that in street riding (except hating ourselves). It's probably 100% and that's a good thing. It means you're leaving enough safety in reserve in order to negotiate you and your bike through the turn.
However, this does leave one very bad habit; street riders often open the throttle while leaning the bike over (I used to do that!) which means you're greatly increasing your chances of a low side. Most low sides on UA-cam that occur on the street are from this bad habit of losing the rear while on throttle, while most racing low sides are from sliding the front tire.
@langhamp8912 thank you for your comment I do feel better now that I'm not alone.
Did it take long to break that habit of throttling whilst leaned over?
So the moral of the story delayed apex and awareness of throttle imput and lean angle ? I'm going touring this week for the first time and look for wards to applying the teachings.
Late apex can feel like the corner entry is too slow on wider radius curves that carry a maintenance speed longer. On switchbacks it's the fastest way to get your sight line back get the bike turned with any amount of lean you are comfortable with and then get back on the throttle aggressively because your exit is a straighter shot. It's the safest way to go for sure and even if you decelerate more than needed to carry brakes in deep you should still practice decelerating deeper into the turn or carrying a little brake up until tip in and trail it off. You'll get used to it. It's a necessity to learn this for downhill switchbacks and decreasing radius turns if you want to maximize sight and control.
@ApexEater thank you so much, a brilliant explanation. I over stand so much more from what you are saying. I am really pleased with the responses and can't wait to go out on my bike and try it out today.
If you feel the need to either be decelerating or accelerating, it could be because you don't know how to steer, yet. You might feel like as soon as you apply throttle, the bike stands up a bit. And to lean deeper, you feel like you need to let off throttle and/or even add some brake. So you waffle between the two.
When you open throttle at a deep lean angle, yes. The bike will try to stand up a bit. Just apply and hold some countertorque (pressure in the opposite direction to the corner) in order to hold the bike at this lean angle. As long as you're not accelerating significantly, this is not dangerous. The pressure you're putting on the bars isn't "fighting the bike" and it does not detract from your grip.
Whenever the bike is maintaining speed, it is self-stabilizing. This means it steers itself to go straight/straighter. You just need to keep some pressure on the bars to prevent this from happening. It's just part of steering. Learn to steer the bike while in maintenance throttle... neither accelerating nor decelerating. To add lean while in maintenance throttle, depends on the bike. On stable steering bikes, you will need to sorta make a little countertwitch. Hurry up and figure this out. It's important for your safety and cornering skill. Once you know how, steering with the bars while maintaining throttle is always faster than trying to close throttle first to make the bike slowly/eventually lean more.
Um hard disagree on lowsides. Most lowsides by street riders are because of cornering deeply on a CLOSED throttle. This will cause loss of rear traction due to the engine braking, especially when you have the bike in the powerband.
When accelerating too hard, most riders do this as the exit opens up and the bike isn't leaned super far. This usually results in highside crashes. On track, yes. Most lowsides are loss of front tire while using front brake.
Aside from being common sense to not accelerate hard when leaned deeply, doing so makes your line open up wider, unless you intermittently steer the bike deeper and deeper while you do it. So in addition to common sense, it would be extra complicated to do that before the exit opens up, even if you had traction to spare for this very inefficient purpose of trying to gain back a tenth of the time you lost by not just entering the corner faster to begin with.
This video is so nerdy...I LOVE IT! I can't tell how much my riding has improved since I found this channel a year ago and started understanting the physics behind riding. I've not only got to learn, but understand how to ride and why. Really, can't say thank you enough, Andrei!
Boy.. statistically you just saved some hundreds of lives. Great job
It's not just motorcyclists, I see people turn in too early all the time in cars, frequently cornering slowly but still crossing the centre line. This kind of bad cornering becomes embedded in the subconscious mind, and if these people are confronted with oncoming traffic the switch from subconscious to executive function is too slow for them to respond and get to the correct side of road in time.
Excellent !!! This should be taught exactly this way in all beginner courses
This cornering technique is how i was taught while racing cars on road courses. Very good explanation!
Excellent demonstration and overall video. This is the type of physic based advice which is all to often missing when trying to improve our riding. One of the top videos I’ve seen by a long shot. Much appreciated.
im currently taking lessons for my motorcycle license and this channel is helping me out alot, such clear and simple explenation to understand when you dont already understand the topic hes talking about. im really glad i came across this channel
Biggest part of bends is being able to stop in the distance you can see. I was taught to turn in late and to stay wide to see what’s coming towards you. You then have the longest time to either stop or move away from oncoming vehicles.
One touch from an oncoming car or lorry and it’s game over.
Hello!
I am very new to the world of motorcycle and I didn’t have anyone to teach me. I rode a scooter before upgrading to a bike and didn’t know how to operate the clutch and use the gears.
I stumbled upon your channel and I give all my credit to you. Your channel helped me learn everything I know about motorcycles today, the gears, the clutch, the brakes especially slow speed manoeuver.
I still watch your videos because I’m still learning and I appreciate your effort.
You make your lessons easy to understand and also make it sound simple which encourages one to do it without fear and also, your accent is very entertaining.
I had a good driving school teacher. I was taught this in driving school. Well presented in this video. Keep the good work up!
Really well done. The calculations were interesting and the photos with different lines were very helpful.
The most difficult corners for a motorcyclist, are long tightening radius curves. These are often at dual-carriageway exits, which try to fit the biggest change of direction into the smallest possible space. They begin was a slightly curving slip road, before embarking on a G-force battle with the bike and foot pegs. Add spilt diesel from over-filled lorries, and an impossible to see exit of up to 360 degrees, for a white knuckle ride.
i thought that was basic knowledge. back then, during training for my motorcycle license we were taught that when we are taking a turn above 35km/h, we must stay on the outside, and plunge towards the inner side (the apex) as soon as we see the exit of the turn.
Seems like this used to be common knowledge, but too many riders can't actually do it like this. They turn in too early and slowly, then they become instructors and teach people how to ride like them. Turning in too early and braking to compensate/correct.
@@rooney1680 You don't need to see the exit to lean the bike enough to match the radius that you can already see. For all you know the corner could be an infinite corkscrew that never ends. Just wait and turn in late enough where you can lean the bike all the way to match the curve that you can see AND stay towards the outer middle part of the lane. If the corner tightens later, you can handle it, so long as you enter the corner properly and maintained some track space to the inside.
When you turn in too early, you can't match the radius of the corner, yet. You'd run off the inside of your lane. So you brake instead. If you waited and turned in later, you wouldn't have to do that. Riders who can't lean the bike in fast have to turn in early and find it helpful to brake into corners. But these riders will never be able to take corners as fast as the rider who can quick flick into them.
@@mildyproductive9726Perfect description. Bravo, I agree 100%. 👍
I m no expert but I learned one rule that saved me in many situations, always look at the exit of the turn, do not look at the side or elsewhere, just at the exit and you naturally steer the bike or any other vehicle to the correct line
Except if you can’t see the exit
Amazing, well explained. Also i can pat myself on the back for doing this intuitively already, I only attempt to take a perfect turn at high speed when I can either see the whole turn with no oncoming traffic or I've ridden that turn tens of times. Otherwise "late apex", preload front suspension w a touch of brake, peek into the corner and once I can guess the max. curvature then let the bike eat.
It also sets you up nicely for the next corner which is most often the opposite turn.
It's ALWAYS the second corner that gets you. Hit the first one but waaaay out of position for the next, especially when they are close.
As, an engineer and a rider myself, I find this video a pleasure to watch. Not only does this video reminds me of my physics and math in my college days but also teaches me to ride safely around bends.
Very good explanation..... I just started learning about the late apex technique, but your calculations put some good substance behind it : )
I decided to give you something financially, because watching your videos pushed me to start exercising my slow riding motorcycle skills. At 75 I'm not a fan of high speed anymore, but being safer on the road, specially in a big town like Toronto is never ending learning process and your videos helped. Thank you with joining your Patreon channel. I also wanted to congratulate you on your hairstyle. :)
Thanks a lot, I appreciate it very much!😊
@@MotoControlEn Think the 74 year old meant to say congratulations on still having hair.
Love the practical application of physics. Well done!
Great attitude, wonderful communication, the visuals made it easy to understand. Best, Rola (Oregon / USA)
Took me a while to learn this in the past and it works out really good for me. Late apex till I see the exit and GO! At the late apex, As soon as the lines on the road start to straighten up, I know the road ahead is getting straight so I can pick up the bike and accelerate. Worked well for me over the years...
Great job describing one of the most common and potentially lethal scenarios which can be avoided precisely as you describe with great clarity. You will save many lives with this video. I have shared it with my motorcycle club.... Bravo ...
Have you seen Bret Tkacs's video on this? He explicitly talks against the idea of an apex on public roads and advises that vision should be the limiting factor (e.g. you are on the brake until you can point your bike at the exit of the corner). I think your ideas very much align, but the explanations are different - and both very nuanced and valuable.
There will be a separate part on vision. Initially I wanted to make an all-in-one vid, but once I realized the first part only is already more then 10 minutes long, I decided to split this topic into several parts🙂
Bret is right in so far, that on unfamiliar roads there is no way of telling where the apex is going to be. You will know it once the corner is over.... So for unfamiliar roads the only tool you have is. vision
On the "best" line he shows, the apex is completely optional. Once you can see the exit and that it's clear, you can steer the bike into a slightly deeper lean to clip the inside line, only if you want to. You can just stay in the middle of your lane by doing nothing.
I you rewatch Bret's video, he briefly mentions that "not all riders can lean the bike quickly." This is the crux of the matter. In order to make the line that is shown in THIS video, turning in late and staying wide, you need to lean the bike very quickly. I.e. quick flick. This is pretty easy to learn on some (track) bikes. It's more tricky on many road bikes. So for riders who can't do this yet (or maybe ever), they can't make the "good line" in this video at higher entry speed. If your rate of lean is too slow, you have to turn in early and you end up on the inside of your lane way early. And this is where it helps to continue to brake, in case the corner tightens.
If you were able to turn in late and quick to stay wide, and you see the corner tightens up ahead, you would have plenty of space to the inside to simply lean the bike deeper, earlier, to tighten your radius the minimum amount in order to make it.
If you're already on your inside line, even when you can see the corner is going to tighten up ahead, you can't lean deeper yet. You'll go out of your lane. You have to wait until you get there, then you have to turn way tighter, using up more of your spare traction. You might not even be able to lean the bike quick enough to stay in your lane, due to the angle. This is the rider who benefits from trail braking on the street. Like Bret says, not everyone can lean their bike in quickly (to make the safer, faster lines shown in this video).
17th century…😂
Very plausible and easy to understand. I like in particular the videos showing the lines in real time view - this makes it so much more relatable. Well done Mate.
Hey! Thanks for your videos! I just started riding this Monday. Your videos helped me a lot when I started gathering money last November lol Gonna do the drills now with your routine next month!
Check out Kevin at MCrider and Dave over at Canyon Chasers. These three guys are the best of the best on UA-cam.
Excellent discussion! 8:00 Early apex makes you run wide. Early apex an increasing radius corner, late apex a decreasing radius corner. 10:08 is a nice picture of a good line.
Aside from myself, you're the only motorcyclist I know that actually does the math on motorcycle stuff. I'll certainly seek out an opportunity to take a on-site class with you. Though I'd rather do trail braking and use the brakes to steer the bike, like they teach in Champ School.
the video was about line selection not trail breaking
@@dennytuma and it was a great video indeed. Though one is tied to the other. It's suggested that you enter late on the turn because if you misjudge the turn and enter too early you're going to be too fast inside of the turn. But if you learn trail braking, you actually become able to fix your speed inside of the turn, so that you don't need to enter late.
At driving school, I was told that I should drive the corner late until I see the exit and then accelerate.
*But here, APEX is explained to one simply and perfectly!*
My favorite channel since I started riding motorcycle again.
But how do you know the apex until you can see the exit? Cornering late with trail braking into the corner allows you greater visibility of the entire corner to plan the corner, and greater control to manage your line through the corner as you only ease up on the brake and start to accelerate once you see the exit
0:10 he just wanted to take a nap
fantastic work!
the trend w/ trail-braking on so many (even large) channels is so disappointing given how dangerous it is for new(er) riders. i've watched dozens of videos trying to explain in numerous ways how it's safer while in reality it's an advanced technique for late braking.
the safest way to corner is to go in slower than you think you should, maintain the outside line like this video shows (but not too close to incoming traffic just in case the corner tightens even more on badly designed roads) till you see the corner exit and then either maintain speed or even slightly accelerate as you complete the corner.
there are many riders who 'went around the globe' w/o any (stupid) accidents. luck plays a role but it appears some 'type' of riders seem to have way more luck than others. think about that for a while.
be nice ride safe and have fun when possible :)
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ps: in case of an emergency don't be afraid to swerve aggressively. modern tires have more than enough grip, they don't really need the extra help from all kinds of 'race techniques' such as trail braking. push firmly on the handlebars and *force* yourself to look at the 'safe path' not at the 'obstacle'.
practice swerving in a safe setting, you will be shocked how quick and firm modern tires can change direction of the bike. practice braking, practice slow speed maneuvers... you want to be able to work the controls of the bike and your balance w/o having to think about your actions. because in an emergency you don't have time to think and your body knows it so it switches to 'instinct mode' but the 'natural instinct moves' are in many cases counterproductive on two wheels. long story short, training the 'reflexes' is the safest thing a rider can do. it takes many many repetitions so have patience w/ yourself.
do a little experiment for yourself, this will change your attitude: move your toothbrush to a new location. count how many days it takes for you to stop reaching for the 'old location'.
Great video! Very clearly explained. Next, add trail braking.
There will be a whole separate video about one!
Excellent explanation of one of our most critical riding skills. It's over-simplified to blame crashes in turns on too much speed, without considering technique (line choice). Thank you for filtering much of the mud out of the water on this topic.
Very valuable information, great explanation and animation!
It's important to note that you still have to be very aware of oncoming traffic when you're close to the middle line until you're at the apex.
I usually try to ride a late apex line but sometimes have to trailbrake and move to the middle of my lane because oncoming cars or bikes are occasionly cutting the corner..
This.
I've seen a lot of videos on UA-cam explaining how to best corner on a motorcycle and this one is the easiest to understand. Very well done. Thanks Dude.
What I am seeing so much of in these examples is target fixation, the rider stops focusing on the exit of the corner, and focuses on the side of the road, an obstacle, what ever they feel threatened by, and then because they are looking at it, they ride right into it. There is no reason why they could not have corrected the turn by leaning more, backing off the throttle, and/or trailing the brake as they entered the corner. The thing is too, you never want to be anywhere near 100% cornering speed on the street anyways, as it gives you not only no margin for error, but it also gives you no room to react to the unexpected like say an animal, or some oncoming idiot passing in a blind corner, or anything on the road that could hurt traction.
Target fixation might be part of it, but it's clear in some of these examples that the curve gets tighter, and the rider did not stay wide enough to easily deal with it. Rider turned in early.
By turning in early, you can't tell when the corner is getting tighter up ahead you're almost there, since your view is so short. And since you're so close to your inside line, if you simply leaned more, now, you'd cross over the line (into oncoming traffic or off the road) to make it. So you have to lean a lot more in a shorter time, when you get there. In a lot of these examples, the rider could have made it by leaning deeper, but if they could take a better line they would have been way more confident to try, not having to reach as deep into their spare traction or psychological lean angle limitation.
Thanks for information, bro. I started riding 6 weeks and can confess how much I've grown over the time just by listening to your advice.
The line giveth and the line taketh away. [Bike 25:17]
That line was golden! LOL Physics doesn't lie. You don't get something for nothing.
Sheer brilliance in explaining a really complex process. The late apex turn makes so much sense. Thank you
Either way id go 50kph
No Drama at slow speed :D
@@mannyechaluce3814low speed? You can get ur self killed at that "low speed"
If you’re having fun and being safe you’re doing it right. Later on when you meet up in one piece for coffee you’re free to embellish your speed all you want. 😂 More than one rider has been known to do it. It’s a different story if you’re racing MotoGP where people can see you.
@@blipco5 Motogp 🤡
@@blipco5 Even then, a local driving instructor died during race training recently.
I read a book that spends some chapters on cornering, and I had a very experienced and good rider show me the best way to corner. But your video made it even more understandable - thanks a lot!
One problem as you say it's the vision you have. If you have no vision imo, you should not go that very wide, because cars tend tu cut corners. You should try to find a perfect moment between not too earl and not too late, so you can avoid this kind of situation. Idk if I am right, so please correct me if I'm wrong but that's my point of view
Good stuff 👍🏻 The other good thing about using a late apex is that you open the corner up, you can see further around the corner. The riders in the videos all started turning early, none were actually using anything like the available grip and have panicked, on the sort of bikes shown, using the rear brake would've settle the bike, lose speed and give the riders confidence they could make the corner. Learn stuff and practice it, I'm still practicing after 43 years of riding !
So much of math im walking with the bike instead 😢😢😢
Brilliant explanation. Without knowing all the facts I've always favoured the late apex simply because it gives you the best vision of the corner. Added to that, i've always chosen good-handling bikes so that I can lean it further over if the corner is much tighter than I was expecting. A cruiser-rider may not be able to do this due to ground-clearance issues. Some beginners seem to run out of courage first and won't lay the bike over as far as it needs to go.
Yeah, every woman can tell you. Too early isn't fun
Q🎉qq
I've definitely have felt this problem while riding, great being able to see it and understand it. Great vid!
He has really turn us from newbies to rookies, futures videos we will gain accurate knowledge. Always keep learning from his great videos. Great work for the motorcycle community
“Your excellent videos and lessons giveth me excellent knowledge and I taketh confidence and skills with me.”
This was great! I have watched many car racing tutorials but NO ONE has explained it with the radius like this. As an engineer this approach was awesome. Thanks for great video!
You my friend are unbelievably good with explanation and teaching. I just had similar situation on the road, luckily there was no car in opposite lane. I perfectly understood why it happened and how to avoid it. This videos will save lifes. Thank you, spasiba!
This is by far the best Channel on UA-cam for learning Motorcycle Skills. Thank You for making these.👍👍
Good stuff. The more you learn and understand the better. If a rider is taking a corner at 65kph, and is at 50% of their skill level, if something happens there is a margin of error to potentially save your life. If another rider is taking the same corner at 30kph but is at 95% of their skill level, if anything goes wrong, there is no skill margin to save your ass.
That was one of the clearest descriptions of cornering strategy I have ever heard. Thank you!!
This is great. I've been riding for two years and now I finally understand the principles behind the perfect line and late entry. Please also cover trail braking. It is very difficult to brake a leaned bike without disrupting its balance, but if there is some brake pressure on corner entry, it is much easier to increase or reduce it mid-corner
Late apex is a good idea. What helped me was also knowing to direct one's vision (gaze). If one is running out of road, the tendency is to target-focus on the danger (anticipated point of crash) rather than forcing oneself to look where you want to go (the exit of the turn). AND, when approaching the corner, if you can't see the exit, slow down with an extra margin of safety before entering the turn and only increase speed when the bike is pointing toward the exit.
Thanks!
This vid is spot on - I’ve done a couple of days with the British Police, who take the outside line for corner visibility (but tend not to brake much at all) and a day on track with the IAM, where they put cones out to mark the braking target for turn in to hit the late apex’ on Thruxton and encouraged later but firmer braking to get a line where the late apex allowed standing the bike up & getting on the power again sooner on the exit.
One thing neither training day covered was the detailed numbers covered here - really a very good video.
Thanks for your explanation. So many bikers think, that the safest line is boring and slow. But that isn’t true. 👍
In France the gendarmerie nationale offers free training to every bike driver. They name this way to get in and out of a corner a "security trajectory".
Love your vidéos 🤩
Nicely done , delay your entry to the corner, and tip in ,maintain throttle ,till you can see the exits.
This exact scenario plays out in your car or truck for most turns as well but most people tend to not notice. When you're in the wrong arc you have to readjust to stay in the lane. But if you nail the perfect arc going around to curve you can feel the vehicle pull you right through and it's a beautiful thing.
Very informative nice video. I was taught by my teacher while doing an advanced course for safe driving to follow a simple rule to never crash on a corner: "Take it a little slower than the speed you actually think you can, adjusting the speed before entering, hit the gas only once you see the exit".
But let's be real, I think that 99% of every driver knows already how to drive safely, the problem always is our stupid ego when it kicks into high gear and makes you thirsty for more adrenaline or wanting to prove something...
Well done! I have just found your channel - this is what is being taught in the Advanced Rider Training in NZ (Ride Forever Gold Courses). I have been to 8 of them and enjoy them for a great day out on the bike with lots of rural roads and new corners. The same rule applies to the outside lane - staying wide until you can see the road ahead and then turn in tighter and accelerate out. People do not like riding wide on the outside lane but more practice helps. Thanks!!
Don't fear the lean or the brake! Some discussion of 'trail braking' and looking through the turn would've made this video perfect. Great channel and content!
Awesome explanation. I always see new people getting into the track and they're so concerned with body position that they don't take the time to learn and understand the lines. Eventually they'll be pushing as hard as A group riders, but running 5-10 seconds slower. The reason is normally lines. .5-1 second here and there over 26 corners really adds up!
The final technique described is also what they teach you when you get your motorcycle license in the Netherlands. Good and detailed explanation that I hope saves many from crashing all over the world.
Great! It's almost the same trajectory as the one now taught in driving schools here in France, called "trajectoire de sécurité" (safety trajectory) and also used by the police on motorcycles: you adapt your speed in the straight before entering the corner, then instead of cutting the corner like on a circuit, you shift to the outside of the corner to see as far as possible, and once in the corner, as soon as you see the exit, you shift to the inside of the corner and resume your speed. It's precisely because the police are fed up with motorcyclists riding on the road like on a racetrack, cutting corners, that this completely opposite trajectory is now teached.
Best rule of cornering left or right, is start wide, finish tight. Excellent video … 👍🏼
Wicked my brother. It took me awhile to figure it out as I'm a newbie but really appreciate this.
You managed to explain it presicely and easily at the same time. It will improve my riding. Thanks from France
Late apex driving was taught me in a professional high speed driving course for cars.
It makes your driving much more consistent, thus safer, with a higher margin of error and also allowing to accelerate earlier after having cleared the corner.
Will apply to my motorcycle riding now, too. Thanks for the video!
Brilliant, once again! Clear theory, no-nonsense verbal instruction and witty presentation!
This is an excellent explanation on safe cornering lines. I found it very helpfull.
what awesome advice. brilliantly explained. you will save lives. thank you very much for this
Thank you for explaining 🏍️
You, my friend, are a very clever fellow and always have really good advice on riding safely. Thank you.
I also learnt to never take corners like that, because you should always be in a position to where you dont have to change your position if there is oncomming traffic in the middle of the corner.
That's very common in rural areas where locals never expect to see oncoming traffic.
No doubts - best explanation of ideal track line I have ever seen. Highly informative, interesting and entertaining content. 10/10 will watch it again.