Jeff Durbin Destroys A Straw Man pt1 : The Great Apostasy
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- Jeff Durbin responds to my video on the apostasy.
My original video: • Jeff Durbin Destroyed ...
His Response: • Refuting A Mormon's Re...
Next episode: • Jeff Durbin Destroys A...
Having been a Calvinist before my conversion to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, it feels so strange to hear what I once believed parroted from another mouth. Same tactics that I was taught, same approach. It’s kind of surreal. Loved this response video! So happy I subscribed!
Members of the LDS church live Paul’s words more than anyone else if they are living the gospel. Evangelists think they define what a Christian is, Heavenly Father defines it.
@@wendyfoster5579while i do agree with you on that. Living like Paul does not get you saved
@@danielkim672correct, you are saved through the atonement of Christ Jesus. However, that very same Christ dictated that if you don't give your absolute best to live like him or like Paul then you don't love him. You will be counted on his left hand with the goats and tares and suffer all that entails. It is your heart, obedience, and how much you are willing to submit it Christ's will that saves you. The Latter Day Saints seek to do all of that combined with authorized priesthood authority assisting it.
@@spence3101 How can you say 'However'? Either we are saved solely by the Grace of God through Jesus Christ or we are not. Either Jesus Christ is the SOLE reason for our salvation or Jesus did not do enough and our good Christian works gets us saved. There is a difference between what gets you saved and what we do once we are saved, aka discipleship. I believe there are plenty of people that act like they are a Christian and say and do all the right things, but they are not saved (Judas being a prime example). There are plenty of folks that people might on the outside say, 'how can that person be saved', but they are. Only God knows the hearts of humans and while we will certainly get rewards in heaven for the God works we do, the works we do has nothing to do with salvation.
I am actually sad everytime I hear that you must do 'your absolute best' to get into heaven. Every single humans absolute best throughout the history of humankind has never been enough. For 'we have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God'.
Just adding my two cents. The Savior does ALL the saving from sin and death. The salvation of all from physical death is free to everyone. However, salvation spiritually is not free as he allows us our agency to determine how much of his presence we wish to enjoy (presence of the father, the son, or the holy ghost). Our efforts don't add to spiritual salvation from sin. We are commanded to repent but our efforts to repent don't save us spiritually from sin. Again, salvation belongs to Jesus. Then what does repentance do? It is the developmental process, the conditions Christ set on who he can save from sin. He will not nor cannot save people in their sins who refuse to repent. He can and will save those who engage in that repentance process even if they are just trying because the Lord doesn't demand perfection in mortality. He does have an ideal standard but is merciful to even those who can do nothing but try. As we repent we fulfill the Lord's conditions and therefore place ourselves in the Lord's arms of mercy unto salvation. We become perfect in Christ by his grace as we yoke ourselves with him and work to develop Godlike attributes, doing what Brad Wilcox calls "practicing heaven".
I don’t see meekness or humility in Jeff. He doesn’t seem to embody any of the fruits of the spirit. I get more of the Pharisee vibe than a disciple of Christ vibe.
His is a smugness and aggressiveness that you don’t see within the Church. It’s the Latter-day Saint shibboleth-you can tell they’re a member when they’re kind and respectful, and a creedman if they’re smug and rude. They never served for two years like lds missionaries do and never had to meet people in humility and preach to them
His faith isn’t even about humble love for Christ. It’s about boosting his ego and bank account
Exactly
Don’t see much here either
I recently watched an Apologia video where they were attacking David Alexander, who he made a comment on his channel for people to stop watching Apologia videos as they were just trying to get click-bait and videos full of “gotcha” statements. Anyways, Jeff kept saying “we try to get these answers from Mormons, but nobody seems to know”. Every time I tried to post either an answer to their questions or a link to a better, longer description video or podcast, it was deleted within a minute. They are intentionally trying to keep their audience in the dark by only using video of their confrontations where they come out in top, discussing deep doctrine with less informed LDS, or even missionaries (who, c’mon, are 18-20 year olds just out of high school).
Comments with links are auto deleted on UA-cam. I had that happen to me a lot before I realized. I think the content creator can restore them if they want but they're not going to spend the time doing that.
Just watched the clip you referenced and it really was as bad as you said, but what's sad is I'm not even that surprised. There's another clip out there of him advocating the death penalty for women who get abortions. Now I'm as pro-life and anti-abortion as they come but that was when I started to realize his politics are just bonkers.
That’s UA-cam doing that not apologia. You’re lying
Why does your group send out 18-20 year olds? have met a few... They havent even read the Old Testament.
Because only the ignorant youth would take 2 years in the prime of their life, rather than using the time wisely.
The Mormon church would never do it to anyone else until you have retirees or ultra-rich, who can afford the time away.
It’s also a way the ignorant youth will become indoctrinated via hard times, and they’ll often cling to their faith they don’t know well, for comfort. It’s a way to gain a more loyal follower, before they have enough life experience to see through the shenanigans.
So it’s worth Jeff Durbin’s time to corner random, unprepared strangers and try to overwhelm them with counterpoints to Mormonism, but it’s not worth his time to formally debate someone who wants to honestly engage with him on the points he brings up. Man, he’s such a cool dude.
Jeff will debate many open invites no brave men wanna step up?
@@andreatimmers1720 Then why is he ignoring Jacob from Thoughtful Faith?
@@ryannilsson7955 because Jeff makes subscribers by randomly engaging unprepared or uneducated Latter Day Saint. He doesnt debate people who actually study the religion seriously.
I think Jeff is afraid of being wrong. AND if he tried to slow down and understand what you're saying, he just might find our we're devoted to the LDS doctrine because IT MAKES SENSE.
You guys are giving Jeff Durbin way too much leeway. He knows exactly what he is doing. He knows what the church teaches and believes.
I would argue he knows Mormon doctrine better than most Mormons.
@@BrendonKing yes a lot of protestants try to paint latter day saints as stupid, ignorant, or brainwashed. Its just a strategy used to demean and dismiss people who think differently than you
@@lizktI don’t think k that’s the case. LDS members aren’t stupid any more than Protestants, Catholics, etc. we each see things from a different perspective and truly believe it.
@@gatecrashercanadamb I completely agree! I am LDS so I'm definitely don't think we're stupid. I meant that Protestants often try to make us look that way or believe that we are. I have been told often that I don't know what I believe, or I need to study church history, or I am lying because they know the truth of my religion, etc. I wish we could just respectfully listen to one another
I do get a kick out of him having to say Church of Jesus Christ .. it's our preferred pronouns 😂😂😂
The funny thing is I am pretty sure I know the church the Church got the URL from and that church, The Church of Jesus Christ, also believes the Book of Mormon is scriptures, they are also known as Bickertonites. His buddy says, "Shame on you," but that is from an assumption standpoint.
His church isn’t even confident enough to say it’s Christ’s church. His church is basically named after its defining characteristic, complaining and whining lol
The problem is that you keep trying to debate Calvinists. They are the worst at telling you what they think you believe, then refusing to believe you when you tell them what you actually believe.
Calvinists don't so much debate as accuse.
Jeff Durbin is NOT a Calvanist. He is a Christian.
They can't help it. God has predestined them to their fate. Lolol.
@@DaremoDaremo this made my day. Haha
@@DaremoDaremo Sad but true. Thank you Jesus for remembering me and finding me! He really does not lose 1. He brought me out of Mormonism in 2021 at the age of 43. Hallelujah! Jesus is King of Kings!
9:01 Jeff talks about the reformation as if they would still have authority to reform. The reformers were all excommunicated. The Catholics didn't accept the reform. So with that excommunication they would need priesthood restored. The reformation was the set up for God to restore the priesthood and it's keys.
LOL 😆 You're counterfeit church had no right to restore anything and besides the Priesthood comes through all the Apostles not just Peter!
Both U and the Roman Catholics R ignorant on claims of exclusively about the Church of Jesus Christ.
Only God gives the Priesthood to believers when they receive the Holy Spirit from God !
@@davidjanbaz7728 @davidjanbaz7728 that is the claim, that the resurrected and translated Peter James, and John came back and ordained Joseph and Oliver as apostles to which they ordained the other apostles and rebuilt the same church structure. As I said in the above statement. Protestants were excommunicated from the catholic church and would have lost that priesthood. So where do you get your priesthood authority from? How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Talk for 5 seconds - Jeff responds for 30 min.
They literally do this to everyone they “debunk” it’s really boring & just odd.
I think I heard somewhere that over analyzing just a small bit of an argument is a flaw in a debate because you assume too much or smth like that. I’m not sure what it’s called, but it sorta makes sense.
Jennifer Roach of Fairmormon was a former evangelical pastor that says if evangelicals are being honest they crave a restoration. They have dummied down the gospel so much that all you have to do to be saved is say you accept Christ and you’re done. No baptism, no living your faith…
Then she clearly didn't understand any kind of Biblical teaching, if that was her key takeaway.
Never thought as a Catholic I'd be agreeing so clearly with mormons. Your criticisms of Protestantism are spot on. We disagree on the rest, but still it was very interesting listening to all your arguments.
While we have distinct differences there are some pretty significant similarities. I'm a big fan of the channel Breaking in the Habit. It's funny how often I find myself nodding along with a Catholic Priest.
Well that’s because you guys share a common power structure. Money
So at the last Mesa Temple Easter Pageant, I stopped and briefly spoke to one of Jeff’s followers. He started on some of Jeff’s common points that Jacob refutes and wanted to give me his pamphlet, but I stopped him and told him I had heard Jacob’s response on Thoughtful Faith to all this. This noticeably let all the air out of his routine. It somehow got a little more friendly. He even mentioned that Hayden had been by the day before. Then we got into a little debate on the Trinity. Interesting people.
During my conversations with high-ranking members of Apologia Church at the Mesa Temple, it became apparent that although they were not part of the top leadership team, they were still influential representatives of the church, entrusted with the responsibility of representing the organization as a whole.
In contrast to their appearances in videos on Apologia Church's website, where they displayed intelligence and persuasive skills while engaging with individuals of different religious backgrounds, our discussions presented a different dynamic. Despite their prior success in showcasing their command of the subject matter, it seemed that they were unable to replicate the same level of persuasiveness or maintain an upper hand in our specific conversations.
Given the discrepancy between their successful interactions in other videos and the outcome of our discussions, I find it plausible that Apologia Church made a deliberate decision not to post our conversations on their channel. It is possible that they felt our exchanges did not align with the image they wished to project or that it did not present them in the most favorable light. This selective approach to sharing content raises concerns about the transparency and authenticity of their public image.
It is worth considering the possible reasons behind the decision not to showcase our conversations. Perhaps the topics we covered were particularly challenging or posed difficulties for the individuals I spoke with. Alternatively, it could be that they encountered an unexpected perspective or line of questioning that they were unprepared to address adequately. Whatever the reason, the omission of our conversations raises questions about the extent to which Apologia Church is willing to engage with opposing viewpoints or present a comprehensive picture of their beliefs and practices.
In conclusion, my interactions with high-ranking members of Apologia Church, who were not part of the top leadership but still represented the organization, yielded different results compared to their appearances in other videos. The decision not to post our conversations on their channel suggests a deliberate curation of content, potentially to maintain a certain image or avoid showcasing interactions that deviated from their desired narrative. This raises concerns about the transparency and openness of Apologia Church's public engagement, highlighting the need for critical evaluation and discernment when assessing information provided by any organization.
So they were filming you as you conversed? I've been thinking they did this for a while now too... based on the fact that the videos are not meant to be about getting the person they are talking to converted to their theology, or to demonstrate good tactics for "witnessing to Mormons" but rather as a performance to convince the video audience that Mormons have no idea what they are talking about.
@@lukehanson_ So basically, the best way to stump Apologia is to 1.) Ask if you are being filmed. If yes, decline. Proceed to the next point with either a yes or no response from them. 2.) Ask if you can record the conversation yourself for your own record. If they decline, ask why and then don't engage for the same reason. 3.) If they are "proselytizing" on the public sidewalk (as I believe they usually are) continue to record them anyways as there are no laws against filming in public (dependent upon city and state law). If they are on the temple or church grounds in any way see point 1 and 2. The best way to end this silly stream of content from them is to do what David Alexander has suggested (on your own interview I believe) : Just ignore them and go share your testimony with someone that could actually be looking for the restored gospel. They cant create content if theres no one to engage with.
@@lukehanson_ That is correct, sir!
@@magitekarms60 I think they even may use ring ins who are not even LDS!
32:15 The Strawman derives from Projection; We claim to be the "True Church" after an Apostasy, but they "hear" a claim of a Monopoly on goodness, salvation or "true Christianity", that's actually what they claim. If they can frame the Apostasy as the demonization of other Christians, any demonization of Mormonism is then fair play.
"Reformation was happening in the New Testament..." Yeah, but in the opposite direction. A Church leader was reforming congregations that were drifting, as opposed to a low-level clergyman telling the Church leaders that they needed to change (and then breaking off when they didn't).
I still think Durbin looks like Fidel Castro. Imagine Durbin wearing one of those green military caps and puffing on a Cuban cigar.
No...not Castro... the Burger King 👑
@@paulblack1799 Yeah, that too.
Yes, absolutely Apostasy took place. THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, the TRUE CHURCH, has been restored.
This is why Protestants will debate with LDS. To be fair, LDS are viewed as the mislead church, and Protestants have it right. So same way just switched around haha.
Jacob Hansen…. I am a big fan. While you are on the subject of the Apologia folks with Jeff Durban. I recently listened to a video of theirs called “Let’s be honest about Christian Nationalists” He presents his strange belief about post-millennialist. And around minute 54 of the video he describes how in his view he wants to set up some sort of theocracy that would replace our current system and he would deny the rights of other groups and our church to worship and basically says he would tear down our “pagan” temples and not allow us to worship which amounts to idolatry. My jaw dropped when I heard it. This also contradicts another video where he was trying debunk David Alexander and mention he cares greatly for LDS people and prefers to live in communities with high LDS populations. Such a contradiction blows my mind.
I just listened to that and my jaw dropped as well....unbeliveable!! He is spewing Lucifers plan, when they say they don't support religous freedom. "Muslims can worship in their minds and conscience"....scary stuff.
I’m not surprised, it sounds very in line with his version of Calvinism.
This explains the understanding of priesthood keys between the Church of Jesus Cbrist and Catholicism.
In a pamphlet entitled The Strength of the Mormon Position, the late Elder Orson F. Whitney, of the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, related the following incident under the heading "A Catholic Utterance":
Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquainted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue's end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me: "You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don't even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that's all there is to it. The Protestants haven't a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism's attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days."
@jonathanbird5094, great comment! This shows the way Protestants and evangelical can't be correct.
Critics like Jeff aren't about trying to understand. They are all about making straw man. Like was said, they will almost never ever try to find common ground or recognize good points that they agree with. The reason why they are like this (Jeff and other critics) is because they have no confidence in what they actually embrace as their belief paradigm. They are worried that the paradigm of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true.
I would love to see you guys find where Jeff is filming on the street and meet him there. He seems to like that setting and would then be forced to either talk to you or run away. I'm guessing he would do the latter. :)
Good job, I watched Durbin a number of times. And I watched the video on question as well as your trio and his original in salt lake. He is a false Christian. He, by his own actions, demonstrates he doesn't actually follow Christ.
I think Jeff would have to admit, that if the church became theologically corrupted then a restoration back to the original doctrine would be warranted. It would've been good to hear what fundamental doctrines had become corrupted and outlining the key doctrinal differences between protestant and LDS.
It'd be cool if you did a response video to the Catholic apologist Trent Horn's recent video against our church. I like him and he's smart, and it makes me sad to see him come after us. It's also interesting to address a catholic since they come from different perspective than protestants.
I'm a Catholic who is a former Latter-day Saint and I thought his video was not very good. I second this, I would love to see Thoughtful Faith respond.
I thought it was odd that Durbin has done two recent critiques of David Alexander (and partly me because I was interviewing him in the video). In the video he invited David to be in the show and criticized him for not being willing to converse. I don't know what he said in his critique of you, but do either of you have an invitation to converse/debate from Jeff? Would you take him up on it if you could?
Edit: finished the video, and it was just as I suspected, when David Alexander declares he won't talk to Jeff or watch his videos Jeff will make a big show of challenging him to come on and discuss and mocking his cult mindset of not listening to anyone who disagrees. But when he talks about people who will discuss with him, all of a sudden the tables turn and not debating is the moral high ground.
Seeing a pattern here. When the Adversary works this hard in a short window of time to take down his opponents it usually means that something awesome is on the horizon for the Lord’s Kingdom and he’s terrified. I felt that when I watched Jeff rebuttal your videos with David Alexander as well as Jacob’s video. The Adversary is working overtime this month to destroy the perception of Christ’s church. As I’ve been pondering the “why” I feel compelled to share it in an upcoming video. Great job Luke, David, and Jacob for using your platforms to correct deception and share truth all while staying optimistic & keeping a sense of humor. 😄❤
Midnight Mormons often do the same thing. They mock people who won't come on their show and mock their beliefs. That seems to be a common tactic in Christian podcasting.
@@nathanbigler you miss the point, Jeff will invite them on when they say they won't come on and then not even respond to those who say they will come on. Midnight Mormons will discuss with anyone they've responded to. Jacob will as well. That warrants being pointed out. Also Midnight Mormons is clearly also a bro show, there's a blend of comedy in there, they're not trying to present themselves as straight laced and serious as an Apologia or Thoughtful Faith.
@@TheHappyLadyChannel Yes it's true anyone that disagrees with me is definitely under the control of Satan!
@@lukehanson_ lol, Mormonism is always a bro show. "Why don't you put on a little lipstick?"
Do you ever wonder if you're on the wrong side of history like all of your racist, polygamist ancestors? Someday your kids will be embarrassed that their dad was a Mormon apologist and disown you. You and Jacob Hansen are going to die alone unless you marry each other hahaha
Robert Boylan has said he had made many attempts to debate Jeff and James. Always been crickets. Interesting. Apologia, I would love to be wrong. Let’s do it! Especially with Robert.
Wow why doesn't Robert go on with Bill Reel or RFM? They were both apologists for the Church and Bill worked for FAIR!
If you could reason with protestants they wouldn't be protestants. I am so thankful for modern day prophets.
Reason with Protestants? That os a weird attack. The Bible is clear. There are no modern day prophets.
@@danielkim672how is the Bible clear that there are no modern day prophets? Since the beginning of time God has spoken his will to His children through chosen prophets. What loving father would send his children out into an ever-changing world with only a written letter that will tell them all they need to know for the next several thousand years? No earthly father would - and how much greater is our Father in Heaven? He would provide further guidance and instruction. Up until Christ’s coming, the Law of Moses was what governed God’s people to keep them on the path towards a better life. When Jesus came, these instructions changed. A woman caught in adultery would be stoned according to Old Testament standards; now he who is without sin can cast a stone. We went from Thou shalt not kill, to not thinking ill towards our neighbor. From an eye for an eye to turn the other cheek, and give him your coat also. The core doctrine did not change, but the way the Father wanted is to think about things and act on them did.
Anyone who has eyes to see or ears to hear can tell that even in the last 20-30 years there has been some major value shifts in society, especially western nations. It is comforting to know that we have a living prophet to help warn us and provide guidance and comfort though these times. Heavenly Father is fully aware of His children, and is not up there saying “oh well, I have them anything I ever wanted to tell them 2000 years ago…I’m done talking to them. They’re not as righteous as my ancient children anyways, so no more miracles either.” No way! He is fully engaged. He speaks with his prophet and he can and will speak to each of his children in their own way. We have been invited to “Hear Him”.
@@mycatwould true prophets of God don’t pressure their teenaged fatherless house maids into sex behind their wife’s back and then threaten their wife with destruction in the name of God when she gets upset about it. (See D&C 132:52-54 and look up Emily Partridge temple lot case testimonials)
@@mycatwould Hebrews makes it abundantly clear we got the Prophet of Prophets. To have received Christ to only return to fallible men would be laughable.
Hebrews 1:1-4
The Supremacy of God’s Son
[1] Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, [2] but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. [3] He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, [4] having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
@@mycatwould
Jesus never contradicted Moses - you are mistaken. The penalty for a “prophet” contradicting Moses is death (Deuteronomy 13) And Yeshua did not destroy, but fulfilled the Law.
Jesus said the ministers and creeds were corrupt. He didn't say anything about the member's.
If the first vision really happened then that means Jesus made that claim. So Jeff and the other Protestants are actually trying to refute Jesus Christ. They are trying to prove to Jesus that Jesus didn't make that statement.
If God sent back John the Baptist to restore baptism then John thinks this is the only true church.
If he really sent back Peter James and John, then those three original apostles think this is the only true church.
If Moses, Elias, Elijah etc. Actually came back to restore priesthood authority then they all believe this is the only true church. Which means these Protestants aren't fighting against Joseph Smith. They are fighting against Jesus Christ. So I'm anxious to see how judgement day plays out. Because there are countless videos of Jeff trying to lead people away from following the holy ghost. Countless. Let's see him explain that to Jesus face to face.
This Jeff Durbin guy seems so afraid to listen to what Jacob has to say. Why is he so afraid to just let him speak before he cuts him off and jumps in on a rant. JD seems very prideful, and hateful, plus quite boastful, which are all very bad sins. Maybe he better go read the Bible, especially the words of Jesus Christ, and see what it says about how he’s acting.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John's accounts are different, & mainstream Christianity is unaware, those who learn that they accept it. Many are also not aware Paul's accounts of his conversion are different. Sadly they make a fuss of Joseph's accounts being different instead of trying the word brought through him if it's true. Strangely they do not try the virtue of the Bible, they accept it as it is with the different accounts.
You and Jeff should do a full sit down debate!
Clearly, from making these videos, that's not going to happen.
why??
Won't happen Jeff knows he would take a massive L and taint his holier than though look he likes to go for.
@@ericwolford5685 They did that was some other members of the Apologia church and they are featured on this channel. Jeff was not one of them but he should definitely challenge Jeff. It would be interesting to see.
17:20 him, saying this is like those who say that Christ couldn’t be the Messiah because he died… Christ’s church died, and was resurrected just like Christ was. There is a type and shadow in this.
Reformation is of man. Restoration is of God.
Jesus is the one an only restoration of Israel. His Catholic Church is still here today with 265 Popes since Peter.
@@gateway6827 His Catholic Church? or the Roman Empire's Catholic church?
@gateway6827 does that include the Popes who were filanderers? Murders? Exercised political corruption to seek gain? I don't know how Christ would allow His Church to be led by men who commit such heinous sins while claiming to be His vicars.
@@gateway6827Catholic Church is a Roman invention 300 years after Christ. It doesn’t have Christ’s priesthood nor authority. Christ didn’t even ask for it. He didn’t want it or need it.
you're brainwashed
I love this.. you guys are awesome!
Jeff is exhausting. If I ran into him outside Provo city center, it would be tempting to debate….but it’s seriously not worth it.
The issue is that fundamentally we cannot agree on the basics, such as the trinity. And his interpretation of things such as John chapter 1 is different than mine. Yet he claims his is objectively true and mine is false. Why? Where does that basis and standard come from? Therefore, we just would just be talking past each other, because again, if you can’t agree on the interpretation of the basic fundamentals….debating with someone like him is useless and a waste of time.
Durban is so annoying and prideful. Seriously, leave my church alone dude!
Actually, there really weren't any who believed in Christ before the restoration. There were only those who believed in what they call the "trinity", which is not even a real thing. They had no idea, and no concept of Jesus as He really is, therefore true worship did not exist then. The trinity theory is an abomination.
So right! What a good point! Thanks for posting!
A discussion on origins of protestantism is a big eye opener as well as the origins of the trinity and the role the Roman rulers had on enforcing that idea over other conflicting christian thought. At some point the invention of sola scriptura was presented and endorsed in the 14th century. So the prior 1300 years there was no argument of sola scriptura.
Sometimes I wonder whether people like Jeff actually notice their contradictory point of view on certain things. I mean, how can Jeff feel offended by Joseph teaching that all the other churches were corrupt before God, whilst he himself believes that Mormons, awell as people that never had the chance to hear about Christ in this lifetime, will end up in hell, for time and all eternity?
How can he feel so offended by the idea that there may have been an apostacy of the original church, exclaiming that God would never allow such a thing to happen, but at the same time believing that God predetermines people to hell merely for the reason to glorify himself?
What arouse out of what Josph received from God was the understanding of how just and equal God treats his people, and the Bible made clear that what will be the highest standart of judgement in the day we stand before him, will be the amount of charity we have, and I asume that also applies to people that differ in believe to what Jeff defines as truth.
Glad you guys are doing this great work in a honest and respectful way.. alone that is telling a lot. I mean, what does it profit to get all the doctrine right, believnig in the only true Chirst, but have not charity, right?
This sounds exceedingly harsh and I know very little of Calvinism, but what I have heard reminds me an awful lot of the Pharisees. What did they do? They looked at scripture and said, oh no you don’t Christ, the scriptures say this, this, and that. Therefore you’re wrong, you’re going to hell, and you deserve to die. Now I’m not sure they go as far as putting us to death literally, but their arguments are exactly the same ones the Pharisees used.
I would love to see you guys debate him. That would make my day.
I would absolutely love if Jeff were to have a Saul -> Paul experience (or Alma the younger and the sons of Mosaiah). He’s a charismatic guy and I think he does a lot of good as far as advocating for Christian values like traditional marriage, allowing unwanted children a chance at life, etc.
I would love to see the Lord use him as a chosen vessel to go from fighting against His church to being one of His greatest missionaries.
Apostasy studios and Jeff the false profit Durban
We know that restoration and apostasy are prophesied in the scriptures. We also know that church is a symbol of the body of Christ. If we were to say that if the church was restored then other christians would say that man can defeat God and that God's kingdom is eternal. However if we use that same logic we can make the same argument and say that Jesus Christ was defeated because he died. However, we know that Jesus conquered death and sin and was no defeated, in fact he conquered. The same is with the church. The church came and gave blessings and guidance to the people at that time. When the church fell away and the priesthood authority was lost (due to the death of all the apostles and their successors) then that would symbolize the death of the church, like the death of Jesus. Then when the church is restored, the fullness of Christ's gospel was available to everyone here on Earth. This restoration would symbolize the resurrection of Jesus. How the church was never really defeated but came back just like Jesus.
Jeff’s whole purpose in his field of work is to be right even when he’s wrong. Why? Because of filthy lucre. The End
The new testament church hold the belief in public revelation from living apostles and prophets they did not hold the belief in "sola scriptura" ...
I'm RC and the algorithm led me here LOL. But I appreciate the job you are doing. I don't want Mormons to abandon their faith and become atheists. I obviously would prefer that they become Catholic but I also would prefer that a lapsed Catholic become a devout Mormon than stay lapsed.
At this time all the faiths need to hold to their traditions and own the weirdness. We RCs offer up bread and wine over the bones of dead saints which will be changed into the literal body and blood of Jesus. That's weird and I wouldn't have it any other way. Mormon seems to encapsulate the best of the pioneer spirit and has weirdness of its own--wild eyed prophets, history of polygamy, Adam God Doctrine (that's a doozy!), and temple rituals that make my ultra ritualistic RC head spin. It's not my tradition but heck--lean into the weirdness!
Bro, this is awesome. I'm a Latter-Day Saint, and I love you guys and your church (I'm assuming RC means Roman Catholic?)
Y'all are good people. All I care about is that people come to Christ. Like you, I obviously prefer that through my own church, but as I've studied the Good Word and pondered on the Love of Good for His Children, I've come to realize that all I should care about is trying to bring people to Him. If that's with my church, then awesome. If that's with your church, then that's also awesome. :)
I think I once heard Neil Maxwell say that the "corruption" criticism recorded in the 1st Vision description was localized toward the ministers in the Palmyra area . . . That being said, Jacob presents a great description of the Latter-day Saints posture relative to our good Christian friends in other churches.
39:28 I don't quite agree with your refutation of Jeff here, Jacob. He's talking about the words that say those who *profess the creeds* are corrupt, while you pivot and say it means the *priesthood authority* was lost. I don't see that connection. IMO, Jesus' words to Joseph had more to do with those who *hold and teach incorrect doctrine* than with the rank-and-file of the Christian sects of the day.
Matthew 5:19a with JST: "Whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, *and shall teach men so to do,* he shall in no wise be saved in the kingdom of heaven;"
My interpretation of JS-H verse 19 is that those who teach theology have been so thoroughly corrupted due to interpreting the word of God through the lens of the creeds of men that they cannot draw near to Him. Regular Christian parishioners, meanwhile, who haven't studied the creeds so much but DO have the Bible, aren't in nearly so bad of shape, and I don't believe this passage refers to them.
EDIT: You ended up saying a lot of what I just said here. But I'm leaving my comment here anyway.
Why challenge Jeff Castro to a debate?? Just ignore him. Don't waste one moment of your time with that hostile hater. Verbal ping pong with such is pointless. Don't cast your pearls before Butt-heads.
Lol
Jacob i dont always feel you represent us well but bro u knocked this one out of the park.
Just came from watching Jeff's video. Really appreciate this response from you both ✌️
Doesn’t Jeff Durbin realize that you guys destroyed them during the debate from about a year ago or so?
You destroyed sola, Scriptura, hands-down.
That was an immensely important occurrence during the great debate.
That was an organization shattering event!
If I were James White, I would repent and take a step back into my beliefs.
So why aren’t Calvinists doing that?
Pride?, because they are the elect ?
I would love to see another response from Jeff. I have a feeling it’s not going to happen. Unfortunately, he’s convinced that he has the truth. Not only is he not interested in a good faith conversation, he’s incentivized to keep a wedge between LDS and calvinists. You hate to see it.
His cup is already full. He has enough.
Hey Hayden,
I'd love to get in touch. I live in Tempe AZ. I used to live in evergreen ward of the mesa stake. I'd love to hear more of your opinions. Heck I'd be interested in joining you and Jacob in the debate with Jeff and Dr White.
I was hoping you guys would have Robert Boylan or Blake Ostler come and smack Jeff around a bit.
I love the way apologists completely ignore what Jesus allegedly said to Joseph Smith in the so called "First Vision" Jesus or God the Father say: "I must join none of them, for they were ALL WRONG, and the Personage who addressed me said that all their Creeds were AN ABOMMINATION in his sight, that those professors were ALL CORRUPT, that “they draw near to me to with their lips but their hearts are far from me, They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of Godliness but they deny the power thereof.”10 He again forbade me to join with any of them and many other thing[s]11 did he say unto me which I cannot write at this time." Emphasis added. So did Jesus actually say this or not? Sounds like another area where the Church is changing it's toon drastically. Now I hear that "all churches have some truth" and "non-christian religions are inspired by the Holy Ghost". Well which is it?
Their all corrupt that's what it is the church just likes to play nice but back in the day they never did. The early mormon missionaries converted 1000s at a time because they taught with power and authority. They would go into a church and tear the church down then those who could be found in the rubble reached up and were baptized. We use to speak in tounges we use to interpret tounges so the church needs to find its ball sack and stand up to the world like it use to do instead of backing down from it I think we have all gotten a little bit at ease here in our Zion but this ain't Zion zion is in Jackson County Missouri. I honestly think it's over for us I think we did enough put enough in place tho that the masters well pleased well well enough pleased. To me the scriptures demonstrate that it's the children of promise who ultimately show no promise. That's where we are now. Church is all into its money laundering and hiding its assets that I think it's foolish to thunk we have any favor in his eyes then the fools before us who corrupted what was once good and true. We draw near to him with our lips but our hearts are far from him. 💯
But that book that book is the real deal and that's why hang on has the ship sinks and wait for it to ultimately pull me under after all the first shall be last and the last shall be first. I'm at peace with that. It was one hell of a ride.
Classic expose on the fallacies of the Calvinists
There is a difference between RE-STORING and RE-FORMING something that is 'broken'.
For example, a wooden table gets smashed up and we decide to use some or most of the broken parts to make a chair. That's reforming the wood into something different to what it originally was. Restoring, is actually taking all the broken parts and nailing, screwing and glueing them together skillfully to make what resembles the original table.
The Church of Jesus Christ in former times was totally destroyed by philosophers who infiltrated the Church and without the gift of the Holy Ghost, tried to comprehend the writings of the Apostles through their own understanding. Just like Jews who converted but wanted to maintain many of their practices, Greek philosophers wanted to use their 'skills' in reinterpreting the writings. There is evidence of their interest being aroused when Paul was preaching at Mars Hill and as he was leaving in a hurry, the Epicurean philosophers stated, "For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: WE WOULD KNOW THEREFORE WHAT THESE THINGS MEAN" and "We will hear thee again of this matter" (Acts 17:20, 32)
By the time Paul was writing to the Colossians, an interpretation of those 'strange things' were already seeping into the Church as he had to warn the people there to, "Beware lest any man spoil you through PHILOSOPHY and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." Col 2:8
By the time Paul had called together the elders of Ephesus before he left the area to go to Jerusalem, 'not knowing the things that shall befall me there', he prophesied, "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievious wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock" Acts 20 :29. Paul knew the great apostasy was imminent, 'not sparing the flock', once there was nobody left to say, "So saith the Lord'.
After Paul's 'departing', we get what is commonly known as the 'Church Fathers' reinterpreting scripture and taking over the Church given that they were trained in the arts of debate, logic, reasoning, theorising, etc and they introduced heresies into the Church such as infant baptism, praying facing a particular direction, the trinity and on and on it went. The Church was unrecognisable in the 2nd Century AD. The 'table' had been broken and they were busy turning it into chairs.
For the next 2 centuries, what was left of the Church splintered into schism. This all changed when Constantine married one of those splinters with the state and purged all othe religions from the Roman Empire. Heresy after heresy was introduced. The reformers 1000 years later did not restore the Church that Jesus established in former times but created their own 'chairs' from the splintered wood. They then went on, much like the early church to splinter further and further. Nothing resembling the Church that Jesus established survived this interfering. There is no church that can claim that they were able to evade all of these changes and remained intact. There are many thousand christian churches in the world today. The can't all be right but they can all be wrong. Logic screams that they must all be wrong. Either that or Heavenly Father, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost cannot instill unity in the church.
I know where I'm placing my faith.
reforming it into the mess it is now? 😂 Jeff Durban is a hack. ever condescending, never understanding.
I've bantered with this guy in comments on david alexanders channel. It would be easier to reason with a cedar fence post. $ is a huge motivator and you destroy his craft, you destroy his $ stream and his purpose which is to oppose truth.
Durban reminds me of the guy on napoleon dynamite "rex kwan do" where he says "OK grab my arm.. the other arm.. my other arm! Ok I'm gonna just break the wrist... walk away....
bow to your sensei BOW TO YOUR SENSEI
🤣
😂
In the first vision account from JSH, wasn't Joseph Smith only asking about joining the Methodists, Presbyterians, or Baptists in his area? To which the Lord replied "none of them". That's the way I remember it. Not that the whole of Christianity around the world was abominable and only paying God lip service and as Jeff implied it said.
11:30 seriously, Jeff is contradicting himself. Because he assumes Paul had the right to reform but not Joseph Smith? Seriously.
Oh Joe Smith ? That guy is a joke
@@andreatimmers1720 you mean the false, slanderous anti-mormon propaganda written about him? Why yes, that is a joke.
36:23 I totally agree with Hayden here, but for a Calvinist that is a pill they have already swallowed. If God is the author of all things that means He wrote Hitler and Maoism and slavery and child trafficking and democratic. At this point they just accept that God has His reasons but they are to proclaim true regardless.
This shows a lack of understanding about Reformed theology.
Durbin's world view in a nutshell:
1) The bible has a single correct, coherent, and objective meaning, which can be arrived at solely by reading the Bible (no revelation or interpretation required, no passages with multiple or ambiguous meanings, no direct contradictions in the Bible)
2) Jeff Durbin's interpretation IS that single, objective meaning of the Bible
3) Anyone who disagrees with him is wrong
4) Everyone who is wrong IS morally corrupt
5) Everyone who is morally corrupt is not worth my time to try to understand, represent honestly, or have a conversation with
So first off, right from number 4, we can see that Durbin is incapable of making the distinction between theological distortion and will to do evil (possibly because where or not you desire to do evil doesn't matter in Calvinism, you're predestined for salvation or hell).
But secondly, he fundamentally doesn't understand how words work, or that even if some texts could be read that way the Bible can't. If it has a single, objective, coherent interpretation, how do you explain that Noah both had only 2 of every creature on the arc, and that a separate account within the Bible says that Noah took 7 pairs of clean beasts (even though the law of Moses with clean and unclean beasts had not been given yet)?
Okay, objective contradictions on minutae aside, are there any passages that Jeff takes metaphorically, or not literally? This means that he is then *interpreting* scripture and not being objective. For example, Durbin does not literally believe Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" or he would believe in continuing revelation and prophets. But if he's CHOOSING to ignore the literal reading of this passage, in favor of a private interpretation, and choosing to believing that this non-literal private interpretation is the single correct one, then clearly not only CAN the Bible be interpreted non-objectively, it MUST be. And so the Bible might still have a single, correct, and coherent meaning... but he's proven that the meaning cannot be objectively derived.
Third, his refusal to engage with anyone who has a different view point (3-5) means he has no mechanism for correcting (2)... you know, on the off chance that out of a billion possible interpretations, he doesn't happen to have the single correct one.
I don’t know what it is but you can tell when somebody is one of the creedal/sectarian Christians and not a Latter-day Saint because of their little beady eyes and dead smug face
Maybe saints just don’t act with such disdain towards others. But it’s a huge tell here. The guy is making digs and lying about the Church and it’s just so clearly beneath the level of respect and good natured genuineness that Jacob and his guest bring to the discussion
Why is the corruption statement an issue for Durbin? He claims we’re based on a lie. He has no problem claiming we’re corrupt. That on its face is hypocritical.
I wouldn't even tell that we had the same premises to start restoration as the protestants had to start reforms.
We had no preparatory premises to start anything. The Lord has his own idea and desire to restore his Church. We knew nothing, we didn't see any solutions about reforming or changing the Christian churches around us. We just took the solution the Lord has provided: he called a boy to become his prophet, and by his simple and humble tool he restored his organisation, the Church of Jesus Christ of the modern saints.
Afterwards, our task became to understand Jesus's intentions and plans and be true and obedient disciples of the Lord. That's what we are trying to do right now. :)
And reformed Egyptian was the only possible way to restore the truth. These discussions are laughable. Jeff takes way too much time on all this I agree. Ultimately these discussions are so useless in the face of a "restoration" which is corroborated by 0 ancient manuscripts, written in a non-existent language, with more anachronism to even begin to recount (historical, archeological, KJV plagiarisms/italics/late additions, dictation order fingerprints, etc). Name a single "revelation" that's been penned by a prophet seer or revelator in the past 100 years. Nothing has been added to the D&C since the times of Joseph. This claim to authority is void of any tangible meaningful insight from God. It's just enough to keep Latter-Day Saints feeling comfortable and assuring membership.
Premise 1: Jesus personally promised the church (singular) founded upon Kepha (Peter) would never be prevailed against. (matt: 16:18)
Premise 2: Joseph Smith taught the Church Jesus founded upon Kepha (Peter) was prevailed against (immediately).
Premise 3: If Jesus is Divine then He can't be wrong, lie or fail in his promises.
Premise 4: Jesus is Divine.
Conclusion: Therefore Joseph Smith's teaching of Total Apostasy is false and the Church Jesus founded upon Kepha (Peter) was not prevailed against.
(because if it had been prevailed against then that would mean Jesus either lied, was mistaken or couldn’t fulfill his promise which is impossible)
Listening to protestants comment on bible verses always makes me fall asleep. Same as if I'm listening to a first grader saying " A is for apple" "B is for boy". "C is for cat". "D is for dog". "God is a spirit". "We are saved by grace".
Some Protestants: There was no great apostasy
Me: Are you Catholic?
Some Protestants: No - because the Catholic church doesn't lead you to Jesus
How do they miss this basic point?
I don't believe the LDS church though
26:07 yes, Jeff is absolutely a cunning genius. He was being disingenuous.
Jeff Durbin is a coward if he doesn't come on Jacob's show. He's just barks a lot.
I live here also in Mesa and visited the apologia place. Not a super rad spirit there.
The Quorum of the 12 and the Quorum of the 70 established by Christ was lost. Basically, the priesthood positions of authority who had the authorization to ordain Bishops was lost, and all they were left with at the top of authority were Bishops whothen went their own way and thousands of different churches were established and got mixed into political authority and seeking power and control over the people.
All of Jeffs arguments can be debunked and destroyed by Johns Prophecy of the Angel bringing the Everlasting Gospel to PREACH to the inhabitants of the earth in the Last Days...
The Bible is NOT all God ever intended for us to have!
Catholic here (One True Church per Jesus the only God) When does Jeff - who I respect but who hates my Papa’s keys (no, sweet old Russell doesn’t have them - nice suits tho 😬) ever say what Big Daddy Joe said - and he did quote (your guys’ tacit self correction appreciated) that Joseph meant morally corrupt? Actual question - he may well have - I just missed it maybe (inception - happens). Also - Catholics are the right arbiters here - not that Mormons are part of the team but they do increasingly copy Catholic ecclesiastical thought as one with surface level knowledge thereof might - we (by the way Taper Dan smokes White on Sola Scriptura back in the day - Amen to that man’s priesthood - Whites? (No) - Tapers? Has none - wait you believe he has priesthood? No I’m saying that’s the end of his priesthood. But that’s not what the word means! Joseph doesn’t realize that or is slipping up - remember those battle stats and Zelf - you’re saying he doesn’t even get how priesthood works? Um yeah but there was thing with the Missouri guys and - what? Yeah this bishop and then Jose- I mean - Jesus had to clear it up incorrectly as shown by his (Slick Joey’s) only uses of Pauline (priestly) literature in BC America - it’s a whole thing - Paul totally undermines LDS priestcraft but then affirms the reality of all validly baptized Christians being priests and ministerial priests being what they are within one priesthood - aside over) but we love it! It’s like the kid 50:16 with seats on first base getting a batting glove - anyway - if you debate “pastor” Jeff you will get wiped on substance but will destroy his broken record epistemological anachronism (Protestant would have Joe beat but for his protestant (specifically Methodist) speak in B of More Good. Also - LDS need help (unsurprisingly) with the pronunciation of the words Papacy and Apostolic - zero points either side
Jeff interrupts. It's horribly rude to interrupt. And allow equal time for each person.
No offence towards Mormons, but Jeff Durbin is the man and not only does he know the Word of God ( the Bible ) but knows your churches history and teachings better than most in your congregation.......yikes!
Many of the early latter day saint converts wer actually protestants and restorationsits from america and europe...
The reformers were reforming the catholic church. You got all kinds of reformed churches. Reformed church of Christ - 7th day Adventist came from the Advent Christian in 1843. The Davidians came from the 7th day Adventist. You got reformed Anglican, you got reformed Baptist, there is 20 baptist denominations, and you got RLDS - reformed latter day saints. God only knows how many are true disciples and how many of them are in it for the business.
I love Jacob and Haden working it, times like this I really appreciate this show! If Joseph was alive today I believe he would recognize corruption within our own Doctrines, tradition, iniquity, the BOM is speaking directly to us, Says as much. We are all in a state of Apostasy in different varying degrees so we our nothing, less then the dust, so what are we so proud about?
Amen
When he talks about the gates of hell not prevailing. He's talking to Peter personally not the church. Peter was known as the rock, not the church. The gates of hell did not prevail against Peter, he died faithful!
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto THEE, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
What Christ is saying thou art Peter and upon this rock, the rock of what? The rock of revelation. It was Peter that was known as the rock because flesh and blood HAD NOT reveal it to him. But the Father, they really don't get it! How do I know this? Because the Father has revealed it to me also by an overwhelming spiritual experience. I'm not going anywhere because of that, I am as firm as a rock, solid, immovable. We only ever loose people in the church who have not had this experience, sadly!
Jeff Durban even used the words authorise servent. They needed them then, and why not now? To keep us in line so we don't wander like they did in the past.
It was only certain bits that Christianity lost the meaning of. Like baptism for the dead, preaching to spirit's in prison, the meaning of the 3 degrees of glory, all of which are in the Bible. Turning the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts children to the fathers if this is not understood then it won't get done, if it don't get done then the whole world will be smitten with a curse and nobody will be saved. They need to be thankful that we know what it means and are therefore doing it!
Even if we are enemies should he not still love us? Strange way of showing it, That in itself proves he's not a Christian!
If there are 44,000 different churches then they cannot all be right. It's either one or none. If none then a restoration is necessary. Despite James 1:5 none of these people will ask God to get confirmation. Because if they did and he told them they would have to get their act together, and up their game. They want Salvation without any sacrifice despite Christ said; come follow me!
God/Heavenly Father allowing anything to exist like Mormonism or Reformed Christianity or even Buddhism and Atheism is agency/free will, imo. God gives the ability to freely choose to believe anything about him.
Jeff's response was not directed at Jacob. It was directed at his followers. "I said some words that seem like they should be a response. It's ok, you can now ignore the bad Mormon."
Also, regarding the First Vision, it seems like God what quite clear. Their 1) creeds and 2) professors were corrupt. No mention of their full membership, laypersons, etc.
It's funny as he tries to talk down to you while completely missing the argument and attacking a straw man. I think he wants to give the appearance of a response video instead of actually making one.
Mr. Jeff Durbin is extremely lacking knowledge, rebellious, lost, & deceitful.
Jeff Durbin has always been the light for religious Con men. He's a smart man and knows he's wrong. Over the years he has learned all the tricks to deceive mankind. He and John Dehlin should go out for coffee. David Alexander would chew this guy up.
I'm no latter day saint but anyone can see the early church became corrupted. I don't think Jesus would of supported the inquisition.
Durbin keeps using the word "Prevail" I don't think he understands what that word means. Satan can win battles because humans are fallible, but Satan cannot win the war because Christ is infallible.
Well done guys, I was so disgusted how much he straw man your words and how much cherry picking he did from your take and how stupid his points were. This was really not the respond I was expecting from him and how much anger he has towards our beliefs, I like what he was doing regarding his anti abortion campaign but dude the pride of this guy is as high as the skies.
Huh? Anger? What anger? The only anger I see is from you
Ha! I know this video is a little bit older, but Jeff Irwin is scared to go against Jacob and the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints in a debate because he knows he would be destroyed. He does things sneaky and wrong, and blows everything out of proportion or simply changes it… Doesn’t the Commandments say love one another as I have loved you isn’t contention of the devil, isn’t bullying and picking on one another of the devil that’s exactly what he’s doing. part of me says, just leave it alone let him go, but at the same time we need to stick up for the way, he treats us and slanders e the church …Christ would never act like he’s acting so grateful that we’re kind to other churches and taught, to love everyone and respect everyone no matter what their beliefs are. It’s that simple just be kind! It’s agency let people worship as they want to worship… there’s a reason why our church is growing so fast and so many people are connecting to it. It’s because they feel the spirit they see the fruits they read the book of Mormon and pray about it and study what we really believe so he doesn’t believe like us it certainly not Christ like to sit in slander, slander, slander as he continues to do as of course we should stick up for the gospel of Jesus Christ and what we believe in
If Jeff Durbin represented Christianity, and he doesn't, it would be hard to find its allure. He is a rock thrower and his weakness of lacking love for his fellow man causes him more trouble than good. He should humbly look within himself to find what he lacks, work on it, while laboring in serving others, rather than spending his days finding fault in others.
It’s hilarious how you go back to Greek and then take the King James Version of the Bible at different points to prove your point… or the small clips of Christian teachers who clearly don’t agree with you’re notion of god if only you listened to the entire point of the lesson. Out of contact is you’re go to lol
Jeff Durban is devoid of the spirit when he gets on these rants. His words are like flaming daggers that seek to kill the spirit in a person. If ever there was a physical manifestation of 3 Nephi 11:29 it is Jeff Durban. Man, he is hard to watch and listen to.
Watching this is a bit trippy with the meta rebuttals.
Probably should just have a face to face conversation right?
Didn’t you destroy Calvinist Protestantism in James whites “the great debate”? During a 21/2 hr debate.
Those backhanded insults and constant talking down to by Durbin… mm mm mm…..
However…your leaders DID state there was a complete and total apostasy and that is the foundation for the reason for the LDS “church.”
I know people who sent invites to Jacob's website to have a friendly Catholic discussion about priestly authority. We Catholics can demonstrate an unbroken line of authority that Joseph Smith was apparently ignorant of.
Can someone help get Jacob to respond please ?
I’d be interested to see that unbroken line of authority and how that line was passed down.
One thing we may need to clarify is that Jesus himself held all of the keys of the priesthood, which were both for officiating in His church (specific duties such as apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth), as well as the authority to perform ordinances in His name - such as baptism. This authority was given to his apostles, with only one man - Peter, holding all the keys as the presiding high priest, or essentially the president of the church, under Jesus Christ as the living head of his church. Certain keys and authority was given to bishops and other area leaders such as Stephen; however he was not given all of the keys for administration in the church. He could exercise his priesthood in his calling, but he was not authorized to act as an apostle. So when we say that the priesthood authority was lost, this does not have to mean that there wasn’t perhaps a direct line of people who held certain priesthood keys. However, with the death of the apostles, who held all of the keys, only limited priesthood keys could be passed on; and then only by the laying on of hands by those who were in authority to do so.
For example, I currently hold what is called the Melchizedek Priesthood (former name is High Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God), which is the greater of the two Priesthoods (Aaronic or Levitical being the lesser, or preparatory priesthood). This is the same Priesthood that Jesus Christ held, and that the Apostles and President of the Church of Jesus Christ hold. However, I currently hold no priesthood keys - meaning I have no authority to act in any church offices such as bishop, stake president, or apostle without first receiving the keys to do so by someone already holding those keys, nor can I simply ordain another to that office - as I don’t have the keys or authority to do so. A bishop cannot give a stake president the keys of a stake president, and a stake president can’t give an apostle the apostolic keys (it only works from top down). Likewise, although I have the same priesthood as the highest-ranked person in the church, I don’t have the authority to baptize anyone, or even bless the sacrament in my home (communion at home during COVID) without permission from my bishop. I do have the authority and privilege of using my priesthood to perform blessings of comfort and healing to my family and whoever else needs it; I can exercise this priesthood in my service to others as I minister to my neighbors and other members of my local congregation in making sure their physical and spiritual needs are being met; and as I work together with my wife in raising our children.
Anyways, I’m hope maybe that helps you understand what we mean when we say Priesthood authority. Not just anyone who has or had the priesthood authority given to them has all that is needed to perform all duties in the church.
With the restoration, with priesthood keys being lost, those keys needed to come from those who held them. Joseph Smith couldn’t just go to a ministry school and get ordained as a minister and start a church. He first received the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood from the hands of the resurrected John the Baptist, who then advised Joseph (and Oliver Cowdery who was ordained with Joseph Smith) that they would later be given the higher priesthood. Then, a while later, Peter, James and John (the beloved) in like manner bestowed the Melchizedek priesthood on Joseph and Oliver.
How can I contact you?