@@davidjanbaz7728 From Jeff? Absolutely. Not only are our world views and translations of the Bible incompatible, we are also thankful this is the case. The more I learn about Protestant beliefs the more I see it. It’s evident in some pastors preaching how far one can go from Christ when using the spirit of man to interpret the Bible and not allowing the spirit to reveal or clarify anything. Religion from God is revealed. It’s always been that way.
@@davidjanbaz7728 Yes ! Different to yours. Ours the same Christ Taught! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only Church with All His Authority and the complete Truth... Every single sect on the planet does not have the complete truth and do not follow the True Christ. They all claim we LDS follow a false Christ and claim we are deceived.... Nope! They are the ones who are deceived... John prophesied and said ,,,, "I saw an angel flying in the midst of heaven BRINGING the Everlasting Gospel to PREACH to the inhabitants of the earth before the Great and Terrible Day of the Coming of the Lord..." So the question is.... Why would God find it necessary to send an angel to bring the Everlasting Gospel IF the Everlasting Gospel IS ALREADY HERE AND CONTAINED IN THE BIBLE. All of Christianity claims the Bible is all God ever intended for us. Ther is to be no further scripture from God but here we have God telling us he would send an angel to deliver the Everlasting Gospel! Hmmmmmmm!!! The validity of the Christian doctrines, among all sects, ALL live or die, Stand or Fall on this one prophecy by John!!! Many other scriptures but this one alone would be enuff evidence for the sincere seeker of Truth!!! It doesnt take the HG to tell anyone the answer to this question, Dont be deceived!!! This is His Gospel and Church... Joseph was a Prophet of God. The Book of Mormon IS the Everlasting Gospel prophesied would be delivered by an angel, coming from the presence of God the Father in the Last Days!!! His name was Moroni who delivered the ancient divine scriptural record we have today as the Book of Mormon TRANSLATED by the prophet Joseph Smith containing the Everlasting Gospel!!! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints ... is the Church and Kingdom of God on earth Restored by Christ Himself... Plain Simple Beautiful Gospel Truth!!!
@@davidjanbaz7728 the same theology taught in the Bible (the Doctrine of Christ) is also taught in the Book of Mormon.. The Burger king of Anti-Mormonism (being as i understand it a "Reform Calvinist") has a completely different theology than is contained in the Bible, and as a follower, adherent, practitioner and promoter of such (reformed Calvinism), the theology he follows and ascribes to, is actually less than 50 years old - A much younger and newer theology than the so called "false Mormonism" he ignorantly attacks
I would ask Jeff - Are you a dad? Assuming he would say yes, then I would ask - Do you have children? Assuming he would say yes, then I would ask - is it possible that your children could have been created by some other dad before you or after you? Assuming he says no, then I factually can say to him - for your children, there is no dad formed before or no dad formed after you. You are and will be forever there only dad. We all, who have been born or will be born on this earfh, are known in the Christian world as children of God. Therefefore, there is no other God before God that could have created us, nor will there ever be a God after God that can create us because God is our father in Heaven. So we worship Him because He is our only God who created us.
Excellent point. Yes, and what father doesn't want their children to grow and progress like them. I want my children to experience all the joys, successes and happiness I have received. And guess what, I want them to become fathers too and have children of their own. And just because I become a father doesn't mean that I no longer need my own earthly father or that I completely kick him out of my life. My father will always be someone I look to gain knowledge and wisdom from.
Heavenly Father who needed to be Exalted like Jesus because he wasn't God from the Beginning makes it impossible not to have an infinite regression of gods literally begetting gods from your infinite Universe that Mormons believe because your gods didn't create the Universe from Ex Nihilo as Colossians 1: 16,17 states.
@@davidjanbaz7728 Now wait a minute. Somthn to consider! Jesus said somethn of His relationship to His Father! He declared.... " and I do Nothing of Myself BUT WHAT I HAVE SEEN MY FATHER DO!" So Jesus declares He does what he has also seen his Father also has done!!! HMMMMMMMMM! Interesting. Right out of Christs mouth! End of discussion.... end of debate!!! And this??? Heres a scripture among many evidencing the Bible is NOT all God intended for us! The Apostle John prophesied and said! " and I saw an Angel Flying in the midst of Heaven bringing the Everlasting Gospel to Preach to the Inhabitants of the Earth before the Great and Terrible Day of the Coming of the Lord" Now why would God Almighty find it necessary to send an angel to Deliver the Everlasting Gospel IF the Everlasting Gospel is already contained in the Bible! Clearly the Bible is not all God intended for us and the Bible does NOT contain the Everlasting Gospel! According to Johns Prophecy!!! In the Bible!!! We as LDS Boldly but Humbly declare the Angel John saw and Prophesied of? Was the Angel Moroni who delivered the ancient scriptural record we have today as the Book of Mormon translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the Church and Kingdom of God here on earth today!!! And the whole of so called Christianity Falls and Fails on this one Biblical Prophecy alone!!! And many MANY more scriptures!!! Say the same!!! Simple Gospel Truth!!!
@@davidjanbaz7728 nowhere in the Bible does scripture say God created everything from nothing. Matter is eternal ... cannot be created NOR destroyed. God ORGANISED Unorganised matter to organise Worlds without Number.... A potter CREATES an eating container or a water jug out of Clay. REMBRANDT CREATED works of art out of Unorganised paint matter using a paintbrush paint and a canvas. So it is with God. God did not create anything from Nothing. He ORGANISED ALREADY UNORGANISED, EXISTING MATTER INTO ORDER...and in the same sense as the potter or REMBRANDT....created or Organised matter. We know matter cannot be created NOR destroyed. Simple.... To say God proofed everything into existence from nothing is stupid and Non Biblical.... Consider this.... If God is without beginning or end and has always existed! Then what has God been doing throughout all time? God has been sitting around since forever till one day he decided to create this Earth and people this planet with people? To have us kneeling at His feet singing Him songs of praise forever!!!??? This is the be all end all purpose for all of His Works and Creation? This is the Doctrine of so called Christianity is it not? What a meaningless God to believe in! He IS our Father and he literally wants us all to become as He Is!!! Joking heirs. Just like his Father before him! Simple!!! The Glory of God is Intelligences!!!
Jeff Durbin behaves like a scribe, he went to Bible college and he learned it a certain way by a certain interpretation with presuppositions, ideas that refine or contradict the simple things he learned from his scholarly institution aren’t welcome. They are part of his identity, the way he has built the image of himself, he will defend the teachings of the Bible college, that is the source of his authority, which isn’t the authority of God but the understanding of worldly appointed scholars.
Jeff says mormon the same way I imagine demons do. He’s so distraught that Jesus Christ Himself established the Church of Jesus Christ that he has to resort to euphemisms to try and maintain a foothold in the conversation at all Does he not understand that Protestants and evangelists are on the outside of the covenant? They’re yelling over the wall at the bridal party
No that is arrogance. Emotions are not belief. My great uncle is an archeologist and they don't pay attention to religion only facts. There is no proof. None . Facts don't care about your feelings. If there is ever one scintilla of proof they will be all over it. He reminded me j k Rowling wrote the Harry Potter books as a single mom in the UK on welfare. Brilliant imagination
@@andreatimmers1720 JK Rowling spent years writing Harry Potter and used editors and lore experts, and still messed up continuity, still has to issue author opinions after the fact. And that’s not to diss her creative genius at all. She’s incredibly inventive. What she does is not what JS did, though. Two different processes. Joseph neither wrote the BOM, used editors nor experts, didn’t refer to previous material, translated in a period of months (actual time spent translating even less), etc. There’s even less evidence for the “Joseph wrote it somehow” hypothesis than any other. It’s not claimed by firsthand accounts, not supported in the documents, no evidence. It’s a cope and a cop-out for those who don’t like the explanation as provided by witnesses.
@@DallasCrane thanks for being so civil. Still bottom line no scientific proof. A huge civilization would leave remnants behind. It's a work of fiction to me until then.
I mean what I'm about to say with the utmost respect: If you close your eyes and listen to Jacob's voice, you'll see Bob the Tomato from VeggieTales. Keep up the good work, Jacob. Love the stance you're making.
One of the problems that you are experiencing in your debate with Jeff Durbin is that he is supporting his point of view from a stance of sola Scriptura. One of the main beliefs of the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is that we claim to have ongoing revelation, that the Bible is not the only divine scriptural authority. Why not support your points of views using modern day revelation and the other standard works? You have pigeon holed yourselves into his framework of using just the Bible. I know that would change the nature of your debate. There is no way he can prove Sola Scriptura no matter what machinations he uses.
They will not acknowledge the presupposition because if they give any ground, they lose their flock and their livelihood. This is why priestcraft is a bad thing.
44:45 the reason he does not engage ... is because if his audience witnessed the engagement ... he might lose some of his audience (and consequently some of his revenue)
Jeff was angry that you used his own colleagues to answer his Scriptures. It was absolute gold. Let them refute themselves so they can see their errors is the best refutation. Jacob is so good with that.
Exodus 21:6 and Exodus 22:8. Both translated 'judges" are from the hebrew "elohim." Those, I would contend, are the same "elohim" from Psalm 82. Human judges. They did not reach exaltation according to D&C 132.
@@mr400meter since when R human Judges in a Heavenly assembly! See: Dr.Michael S.Heiser video on why Jacob's Mormon and your interpretation is erroneous.
@@davidjanbaz7728 The text doesn't say "heavenly assembly." Go read the entire Psalm (it's really short) and ask how these are the same type of gods in D&C 132 who are considered "worthy." They clearly are not.
@@mr400meter dude, people watch this channel to increase our faith. We do not want/need people like you here to bash us. If you have legit questions trying to understand more we can answer them. But when you come off like that it is clear you are NOT seeking for truth. You are trying to tear truth down without even realizing it. Please just leave if you dont care for what we say or anything about Christs church.
Jeff is a hack.He’s picking on you because he thinks he can dunk on you. He didn’t give Robert Boylan’s article the same level of time and attention, even though Robert Boylan is widely regarded as the best LDS scriptorian. He won’t engage with the best apologists.
Jeff durbin: "it doesn't say there are other gods in the bible." Jacob: *uses Protestant scholars work to prove that eloheim refers to God, Sons of God, and angels indicating there are more gods* Also Jeff: "it does say that but that's not what it means, the scriptures are incapable of contradicting my world view."
Jeff is Right that YHWH God Most High is the only Creator God: but the other Elohim of Deuteronomy 32:8 in the LXX are called the Sons of God not the Sons of Israel ( human judges). These were given to the Nations as their gods and R the Pagan gods that R mentioned in the Bible. They were supposed to educate the other nations about YHWH but they instead liked being viewed as the Most High God and corrupted their nations into losing their knowledge of YHWH as God Most High: that appeared to Abram in Genesis 17 : 1 and who Abram says that YHWH is God Most High in Genesis 14: 22 to the King of Sodom. So both : Mormon and Jeff's interpretation of Psalm 82 as Dr.Michael S.Heiser article in the BYU religious journal points out : Jacob is trying to distort Dr.Michael S.Heiser's Trinitarian position that there is Only ONE God Most High and that humans can become gods ( Sons of God) in Deuteronomy 32:8 is not the Mormon view of actually becoming a God of there own planet creating humanoids like YHWH of the Old Testament who is the creator of The Heavens and Earth out of Ex Nihilo of Colossians 1 : 16,17. Theosis is ( like) God in Holiness not becoming A God as A Creator God Most High. Distortions don't take much as (A) in the New World Translation of John 1:1 in the JW Bible totally distorts Jesus as Equal to the Father as God and the Visible YHWH of the old Testament.
@@davidjanbaz7728 it really wouldn't be much of a different explanation. The word One in Hebrew is ichad or "compound unity". So look for it's uses. In Genesis Adam said "a man shall cleave unto his wife and they shall be one flesh" the use here is ichad or compound unity. So now we have evidence of two people being one without sharing the same body. We get to Deuteronomy "our Lord is one Lord" again ichad or compound unity. Then there's Jesus "I and my father are one" ichad or compound unity. So now you get to John 17 Jesus prayed for all of us "that they may be one as thou father art in me and I in thee that they may be one in us" ichad or compound unity. Paul said in Romans when we are redeemed we become joint heirs with Christ. Paul told the Corinthians that in resurrection our mortality is raised to immortality. You do believe all that I just quoted from the bible? If you're immortal and redeemed that makes you a god. So really whether you're latter day saint or Protestant it's the same thing. The only difference is the bible doesn't teach God's unity ends with the Trinity like Protestant minister's teach. So you can see if you're immortal and redeemed that can make you a god while there is still One God. The most high God. Ichad. Or compound unity. So if it's the same thing Then the question comes down to who actually has the priesthood. Catholics claim they got it from Peter who ordained Linus a Bishop and that authority has passed down till today's Catholics. Protestants recognized the apostasy of the Catholic church and protested and were excommunicated for it. Which means you would have had to have priesthood restored at some point. But there's no evidence of that restoration. Not until 1829 when the resurrected and translated Peter James and John ordained Joseph Smith and Oliver cowdry as apostles who rebuilt the apostleship.
Jacob you did a great job in your videos! I've always liked this scripture in Romans 8 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. A joint heir is one who inherits.
I am glad that Durban acknowledged that there are multiple connotations for the word "god" (elohim) This is also true for the words "lord" (adonai) and "father" (abba). I would be curious to learn if Durban applies the same "reasoning" to biblical passages claiming we have but one Father (Mal 2:10, Mt 23:9, Jn 10:30, Eph 4:6) as he does those claiming there is only one God? Does Durbin believe in Monopetarism? ;)
I think last video Jacob made a great point about how Jeff isn't the type of person to give one inch on anything. He's the type of person that would say "I see how you could have come to that conclusion" or "you have a great point". My honest opinion is that Jeff hates LDS people and it's nearly impossible to hide.
You hit the nail on the head, my friend. Jeff claims to love the lds people and community. He clearly hates Joseph smith and our religious beliefs, with a passion. You can clearly see it in his demeanor. He has a strong dislike for our faith.
@@thekolobsociety love what you say at the end about not holding the members accountable. It really came across as Nephites and Lamanites where their hatred towards the Nephites stemmed from what they were taught. God holds mercy towards those who have been taught incorrectly and very harsh judgement towards those who should know better such as the Pharisees.
Sad that Truth offens you but all cults feel that way! LOL at Jacob's CYA ing in regards to Jeff's comment on other Elohim ( created Heavenly beings) Ex Nihilo is a fact from Colossians 1:16,17 : Mormons refuse to accept the Bible as accurately translated and why they can disregard these verses of An Authentic Apostle of Jesus the Christ.
@@davidjanbaz7728 We do believe it is accurately translated. By Joseph Smith. Everyone who believes in the Bible thinks the version they read is accurate or their interpretation is truth. That’s the whole point. But God is merciful and simultaneously brought up a second record to clarify and bring to light which version is correct and continues to guide us so those who truly know Christ will never apostatize. You get it?
Keep hammering this guy! This is awesome! If he's scared, and I think he is, he should take his video down. If his followers ever see the truth he'll be out of a job.
Yes, his religion is a business for sure. It's all about the dollar signs. I can only imagine how much he is making off his videos by trashing and attacking our faith and others.
@@topazblahblah that’s cool, we know from scripture that the father can manifest as a man or as anything else he wants to manifest as so I am sure he will be glad to hug you too.
@@mkprr But that additional “modalism" cannot be found in the Bible, and is actually considered heretical by most Trinitarians. Makes perfect sense in the LDS Godhead, though, if “God” is a also a title that’s used to refer to other Divine Beings.
@@towardcivicliteracy modalism is the idea that Jesus and the Father aren’t distinct persons in any way. That isn’t what I was referring to. I think modalism is mistaken. God manifested himself in bodily form though in the Old Testament a few times, and also as a burning bush, and as a cloud, and as a pillar of fire. If God wants to manifest himself to man kind He can and He has done so in various ways in scripture.
It's called poisoning the well. He even says you don't address those verses....well you try to but I paused before you did and am offended you havent??? It's like he's terrified anyone watching will see too much of Jacob's perspective and think for themselves that he shows a miniscule amount of what you said.
The Bible mentions that the plagues were a judgement against the Egyptian gods in Exodus 12:12. If the gods did not exist, then he must be judging imaginary things
God: I judge your imaginary gods to be guilty. But they don’t exist, so therefore, I’m punishing you in their place. Egypt: So basically for no reason at all? God: pretty much.
What does the Bible say about humans’ divine potential? Several biblical passages intimate that humans can become like God. The likeness of humans to God is emphasized in the first chapter of Genesis: “God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. … So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”3 After Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,” God said they had “become as one of us,”4 suggesting that a process of approaching godliness was already underway. Later in the Old Testament, a passage in the book of Psalms declares, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”5 New Testament passages also point to this doctrine. When Jesus was accused of blasphemy on the grounds that “thou, being a man, makest thyself God,” He responded, echoing Psalms, “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?”6 In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus commanded His disciples to become “perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”7 In turn, the Apostle Peter referred to the Savior’s “exceeding great and precious promises” that we might become “partakers of the divine nature.”8 The Apostle Paul taught that we are “the offspring of God” and emphasized that as such “we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.”9 The book of Revelation contains a promise from Jesus Christ that “to him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”10 These passages can be interpreted in different ways. Yet by viewing them through the clarifying lens of revelations received by Joseph Smith, Latter-day Saints see these scriptures as straightforward expressions of humanity’s divine nature and potential. Many other Christians read the same passages far more metaphorically because they experience the Bible through the lens of doctrinal interpretations that developed over time after the period described in the New Testament.
I was so close to losing my testimony a while ago, because I stumbled upon Jeff Durbin‘s videos… But thank God I listen to the spirit and I knew that Jeff Durbin was misled and only looking through the lens of a Calvinist Cristian. Anyway, thank you guys so much for all that you do in helping us, keep our faith, strong, and doing the Lords work!
I feel you brother. I too feel victim to his videos. I asked God to remove my blindfolds and re-teach me. I came out with an even stronger testimony of The Book of Mormon and temple work. I hope you spread your experience as often as you can. There are a lot of members who will greatly benefit from knowing where to find answers from someone who has experienced what they currently are.
I found many of his videos useful and faith-promoting, and my feed was filling up with protestant apologists who made lots of good points, and I wondered if there were any latter-day saying apologists. So I looked it up, and found myself on this channel. Of course, lots of anti stuff comes up when you search anything about the church, which is irritating, but it is what it is. I didn't know he was Calvinist until Jacob.
Jeff Durbin is a good debater. He is well versed in the Bible and has a designed track to try and lead the innocent down his Calvinist path. . He uses the Bible as his claim to authority. Just like the pastors of Joseph Smiths time. The same Bible that we use to state our position. A Bible a Bible. It’s not enough. That is the why there thousands of different churches. Authority comes from God and given to only those whom he chooses and it’s done by those who have been given that authority like Aaron by the laying on of hands. I can trace that authority back to Peter James and John who where given it by Jesus Christ himself.,
@@jeffreyturner4252 Your ignorance is overwhelming : The JST adds And subtracts from the Word of God ( Revelation) and The Book of Revelation says that is getting Joseph Smith cursed which is why he died! God's word is never broken without consequences!
@@davidjanbaz7728 Revelations!!!??? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only Church with All His Authority and the complete Truth... Every single sect on the planet does not have the complete truth and do not follow the True Christ. They all claim we LDS follow a false Christ and claim we are deceived.... Nope! They are the ones who are deceived... John prophesied and said ,,,, "I saw an angel flying in the midst of heaven BRINGING the Everlasting Gospel to PREACH to the inhabitants of the earth before the Great and Terrible Day of the Coming of the Lord..." So the question is.... Why would God find it necessary to send an angel to bring the Everlasting Gospel IF the Everlasting Gospel IS ALREADY HERE AND CONTAINED IN THE BIBLE. All of Christianity claims the Bible is all God ever intended for us. Ther is to be no further scripture from God but here we have God telling us he would send an angel to deliver the Everlasting Gospel! Hmmmmmmm!!! The validity of the Christian doctrines, among all sects, ALL live or die, Stand or Fall on this one prophecy by John!!! Many other scriptures but this one alone would be enuff evidence for the sincere seeker of Truth!!! It doesnt take the HG to tell anyone the answer to this question, Dont be deceived!!! This is His Gospel and Church... Joseph was a Prophet of God. The Book of Mormon IS the Everlasting Gospel prophesied would be delivered by an angel, coming from the presence of God the Father in the Last Days!!! His name was Moroni who delivered the ancient divine scriptural record we have today as the Book of Mormon TRANSLATED by the prophet Joseph Smith containing the Everlasting Gospel!!! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints ... is the Church and Kingdom of God on earth Restored by Christ Himself... Simple Plain Beautiful Gospel Truth!!!
Weird that he believes in a God that can’t create after his own kind. Imagine having children and making sure they can’t progress to your level of intelligence? What kind of limited or jealous God do they worship? Just is the problem I see with the limited and tyrannical God of the reformation. This may be a better way to approach this debate vs. the academic path that appears to have its own issues. What kind of God is worthy of our worship, devotion and honor? In my opinion it isn’t the Calvinist belief for sure!!! Also, why does it even matter if their are other deities as long as they are ONE with the Godhead (which is a pluralistic organization in itself).
33:11 it's funny how early in the video, Jeff says he's good friends with Hiser and could call him into the studio to refute Jacob, but then turns around and calls Hiser sloppy. 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️ Epic fail
Bottom line...if you have ever met any 5 point Calvinists you would never want to go to 5 point Calvinist heaven if you had to be surrounded by 5 point Calvinists. 😂
But you R OK with Hitler accepting the Mormon Gospel in the Afterlife and being in the Celestial kingdom! LOL 😆 Y R U being baptized for people like Hitler, Stalin, Mao , Muhammad, etc.
@@davidjanbaz7728 No, I'm not, jazzband, no I'm not. Knowing that Calvinism is not the true gospel doesn't mean I think bad moustache man has the truth either. Poor reasoning on your end.
Everyone in this thread should swing over to Jeff’s channel and video and drop a debate note in his comment threads to see if Jeff will bite. Jacob is open to it, why isn’t Jeff?
They used to engage with comments much more than they do now, I still try occasionally as I refine my points for them to review but they and their followers engage less perhaps that they have been told not to.
@@boltrooktwo Agreed but this is about having a discussion. A debate between these 2 would be great! Defend their position content creation is wonderful.
Just watched this vid and others with jd. Also watched the great debate where you debunked sola scriptura. BTW, why are Calvinists even talking to anyone about anything. They’re already elected and “saved” so any proselytizing by them is moot. And you, and the rest of us, are already a done deal. So no point, right. We are taught to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not to argue and refute other’s beliefs. This is a waste of your time
I spoke on one of his lives and he SO rudely cut me off and went on a tirade about "Mormons"...completely disregarding what I was saying...which was basically just pointing out how we are not included in "their Christian family - the body of Christ." He went OFF, then dismissed me and moved on like I suddenly ceased to exist. He is insanely arrogant and nasty.
He SAYS he loves Latter Day Saints and is all teddy bear toward LDS people, but the truth is he is a former MMA fighter. What he really loves is to win!!!!
Yes. He takes biblical poetry that is full of metaphor and imagery, and is also steeped in Jewish traditions, idioms, and history, then takes the English translation literally - with no shred of literary interpretation. These verses can easily mean: 43:10 - As far as this world is concerned, no one will ever replace me. 44:6 and 44:8 - No one will ever compare. President Hinckley once said that beside the Savior, there is no light. That's imagery. The interpretation is clear, "nothing compares to the light (which is interchangable with "truth") of the Savior."
We have a God, father of our spirits, architect of the earth, and provider of a savior. He is the Most High God (to us). If "Bob" is able to be exalted and progresses to the point of fathering spirits, creates or has an "earth" created, provides a savior, etc... "Bob" will be the Most High God to his spirit children. Yet to "Bob", his father will be the Most High God to him. Jeff is adding and subtracting single digit numbers, which is easy for most. But the plan of salvation (Godhood) in advanced algebra.
Telling you you should be embarrassed... Jeff Durbin and James White do that a lot where they make this huge deal about something someone said as if it's so obviously off base it's ridiculous. And then they either never actually tell us what this HUGE OBVIOUS DISTINCTION is, or they say the same thing their opponent said 😂 They are the ones who should be embarrassed
Henotheism? Don't you mean monolatry, since henotheism is allowing/encouraging people worship of other gods? (Monolatry acknowledges that other gods exist, but is intolerant in worshipping them) But yeah.... that guy would get a heart attack if he found out how many and which beings are called Elohim in the old testament
Apologia has 478K subscribers, Thoughtful Faith has 8.6k. How much more growth would Thoughtful Faith get if they destroyed Jeff in this back and forth debate? Plus, the cherry on top of teaching members how to handle these people with truth and the scriptures.😜
Nonsense. You can't be serious. If what you say is true, it would have happened a long rime ago. When have you ever seen a prophet or apostle debate Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, or Pat Robertson??
Well, to be fair, like with Leftists, you can't expect people who aren't objective and of good character to actually "change their mind" when shown superior and actually truthful arguments. People are "invested" in their ideologies.... And to be clear, I judge Apologia as lacking character because True "Christians" don't bear false witness. They may disagree with others, but Anti-mormons like they serve a special "god", aka the bad one. Because the True God doesn't misrepresent, and willfully others.
@@Paul-rg4is We believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. Together, They are one Godhead, or one God. We pray to the Father, same as Jesus taught. The Father also has the name-title of Elohim, after the Hebrew meaning of "head God of the Gods." We don't have revealed to us exactly what that means. We do not believe that any one prophet, ancient or modern, was or is perfect at their job as prophet. We believe God is perfect at using imperfect people (us) to accomplish His perfect, holy will. However, since God forces no one to choose either good or bad, men and prophets and believers can stray from His will up to the points of His withdrawing His power/priesthood and blessings from the prophets and believers up to entire destruction, as with the great flood of Noah. Yes, we have several unique, "strange" doctrines (many of which DO have biblical bases in suggestive, corroborating verses--such as the three heavens Paul writes about). For me, a key take-away on the "strange" doctrines so widely criticized and argued about are that none of them are the core/key doctrines of coming to God with believing, humble hearts and minds, repenting and being baptized and seeking to do good and live uprightly. I don't count myself a biblical scholar/professor but I have studied it much and some parts intently. So easily and in basic ways, I see at least some parts of the Bible that contradict, phrases that don't fit (having clear language errors), and parts that are missing--clearly presenting a problem to any sincere student or disciple. I do not, however, let this lead me to reject the book or disbelieve its primary stories and characters, especially its central witness of Jesus in the New Testament. To me, The Book of Mormon--Another Testament of Jesus Christ is exactly that, a witness of the Lord from another people/nation. You do know that the prophets from the Book of Mormon itself know and state that the book is not perfect? I've studied it extensively and know it leads people closer to Jesus, same as the Bible. The devil is not going to inspire a book that esteems Jesus Christ as the Son of God and anointed and prophesied Messiah, Savior and Redeemer. You don't have to believe it...your choice. You don't have to believe anything from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the men we hold to be modern prophets and apostles. However, please know that debating the "strange" doctrines intellectually (by analyzing words and verses) is not going to be fruitful. Paul gave the key to finding spiritual truth: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." In my opinion, it is all the more believable to me that any and every truth, doctrine or witnessing book of God, God is going to leave, intentionally, room for doubt and disbelief. Which buildings break and crumble in earthquakes? Ones not just lacking basic strength, but any that are +too rigid+; strong but flexible buildings survive while rigid, inflexible ones fail and crumble. I can deal with spiritual ambiguity, unclear and even "strange" doctrines, doubts, etc.--++all sorts of flaws and imperfections++--because my core faith/strength is in Jesus Christ. One day, but not today, we will see as we are seen, will see all things and have no misunderstandings or confusion, etc. This life is a TEST where God won't give us an open answer key (or else no longer a test) that we can run through a copy machine and pass around, easy-peasy, plain for disbelieving (searching the way natural men do) and believing (spiritually sensing) alike to see. The invitation about The Book of Mormon (and for the story of Joseph Smith and for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) is to read it and ask God its truth; the invitation and challenge is to learn (discern) +spiritually+ (not intellectually or by "the natural man")--you individually, direct from God and not from my words, anyone else's words or through any specific study or debate--its truth (and the other, associated truths). Please, the crux of the matter is not scriptural and doctrinal debate but hearts with love for God and humble study and prayer.
Thanks for this and for doing apologetic reasons for our faith. About Jeff. Keep in mind that he is a former MMA champion fighter. While he SAYS he loves Latter Day Saints and is all teddy bearish toward LDS people, the truth is that what he loves really is to win!!!! He had a life-changing transformational experience with evangelical Christianity and subsequently bought into the indoctrination fed to him by the faith that so dramatically changed him. It would be a denial of himself and his very sense of self, as he's become, to go against what he's been indoctrinated with. I suspect that is why he's so adamant about his stance.
jeff durbin don't want to become a god in the future he don't want a eternal progression. He didn't realize that we are all heavenly beings before the creation of the world, he didn't know that we all are co existence with the God.
Why do we even care what this false teacher (Durbin the Turban), has to say about scripture? He fulfills the apostle Paul's teaching "change the truth of God into a lie." Roman's 1:25
I have absolutely no idea if Jeff really understands the doctrine of theosis, even by Eastern Orthodox standards. If he just means a human that becomes a god never becomes or displaces the Supreme Being, he’s preaching to the choir. It’s been very common for anti-Mormons since the 1800s to point to non-orthodox, speculative statements by Church leaders to push the idea that we can somehow overtake, catch up to, or surpass the Supreme Being in some sense-even though that doesn’t appear to be what ANY of them meant. But it is interesting to see faithful Bible scholarship moving in the general “henotheistic” direction, whatever caveats they attach to it. This is stuff Joseph knew in the 1840s.
I find it interesting how Jeff and his team made those two response videos in fairly close succession, but he hasn't gotten around to refuting Jacob's soteriology video and has started responding to David Alexander. Furthermore, Jeff Durbin is a slanderer and deserves no credibility for his religious work.
In Jeff's defense, I think he's trying to be more like his conception of God because he's trying to create something out of nothing which is what his entire defense is based on 😉
I've been enjoying this volley between Jacob and Jeff. When I listened to Jeff's response to your videos, I was appalled at how bad they were. I'd love to see a debate but won't get my hopes up. I don't think Jeff will agree to it.
Around the 35:08 minute mark Jacob said: "and what he meant by that . . ." If you have to tell people what Jesus meant, then aren't you imposing your own interpretation on what Jesus actually said? Let's be intellectually honest here. Mormons, like Jeff Durbin, see their "God" based on their LDS "worldview" or LDS Theology. Even Mormons are guilty of imposing their "worldview" and beliefs about God on to the Biblical text. Case in point, Ezekiel's revelation concerning the two sticks.
It's clear that you have rattled Jeff Durbin. He's scared that you have dismantled his interpretation of Isaiah and his argument for monotheism. Apply Hebrew idiom in understanding Isaiah and his argument against the Restoration falls apart. It's sad, because Jeff Durbin's belief in the Trinity compels him to ignore and/or explain away these passages pointed out by Heiser. He even turns Psalm 82 into a lie.
Jeff has to constantly blaspheme the Holy Ghost by denying it can have any impact or effect on us. Sola scriptura demands he do it. He also has to continually scare people away from the cool kids to protect his livelihood. And yes, I'm impugning his motives. LDS are the cool kids yet he's trying to attract/keep believers inside a limited, frozen-in-time Gospel. It's definitely not the fulness. God is not necessarily dead in his theology - but as a calvinist he has to admit that God has predetermined everything and you may be excluded from the "salvation club" from birth. Sucks to be you - that you aren't as cool as Jeff.
"The Bible says this....the Bible says that...." Lolololol. The presupposition the Bible does anything (it doesn't, it is simply a bunch of writings that man compiled together. It is just an inanimate object) and that the content of the Bible is the end all of everything is such a mockery of the Master of the Universe. If God wanted to make a rulebook/playbook/book of doctrine, He surely could have done so perfectly and plopped it in Adam’s lap and called it a day. The fact that God didn’t do this should speak volumes to everyone. Regardless, you don’t need the Bible to understand self-evident things. For example, just look at yourself in the mirror and you can see that you are so much more than your physical meat-suit. You are an eternal spirit presently housed in those several octillion atoms you see before you. You can see the same as you truly look with your spiritual eyes into the eyes of all people. It is self-evident that we are all eternal beings with the potential to become gods ourselves. Just put off the natural/carnal mind and see the real world through your spiritual eyes.
Durbin is so stuck on his personal interpretation/presumption of bible knowledge he shows his ignorance. Instead of sharing Heiser's actual words, we get Durbin's personal interpretation of Heiser (seeing a pattern yet.) Jacob had the integrity to play the video from Michael Heiser in his own words at great length so we can draw our own conclusions. AND Durbin does not carry the spirit with him. He's too busy sewing contention and false information (like personal attacks).
I don’t think that truth is established through debate. Only consensus. Victory in a debate does not prove your point as truth. It merely proves that you were the better debater. I don’t think that it’s Christlike to seek out a theological debate (could be wrong here) against an anti. It was the antichrists in the Book of Mormon that sought debate with the ordained servants of the Lord: namely Sherem, Korihor, and Nehor. Refute false doctrines on your channel but don’t feel the need to debate the Jeff Durbins of the internet. As far as the confusion surrounding the singularity/plurality of God. Let’s recall that the relationship that exists between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is pure Zion. Zion is one in heart. Multiple people acting as one. It’s only natural for we worldly beings to struggle finding the boundaries between the beings of the godhead. I believe we don’t need to try to distinguish between them because they make a great and consistent effort to be ONE. And they even invite us to be one with them.
I think it would have helped if the words "Deity" and or "Deities" were used instead of just referring to "divinity" or "heavenly beings" when talking about the topics in this video.
I would like to point out that when you spoke of Theosis, Jeff let you speak for a total of 7 seconds, not even letting you finished your point on the matter. He jumped to many many conclusions without listening.
If we wanted an actual tests it with an orthodox bishop, we would actually give it tot him and give no context and ask what they think. Then some of the biases can be reduced
Please please please have more conversations with eastern Orthadox. It would be such an interesting conversation, especially on the concept of theosis. Side note, theosis is coming into union with god through theosis. It is sharing his energy, but not His essence and becoming separate Gods. That’s the difference.
How do Orthodox Christians define the Trinity in relation to each person? Do they believe Jesus and the Father and The Holy Ghost are equal in every way (divinity, power, authority, essense)?
I’m so tired of Protestants and evangelists. They’re spawn from a corrupt catholic tree and their beliefs are rooted in shallow sand. It gets so boring to hear
@@alejandrovalenzuela377 I did not mean to write essence, my apologies. We becoming in union with His energy. To take part in His essence would be contradictory. Thanks for catching my mistake. I’ll change it
@@jacobsamuelson3181 The Father as the only true God is the sole source of both the Godhead and of the Trinity. Thus, when Holy Scripture calls him the only God or the one God, it means that the Father has a superior status, not superior ontology. The Father possesses the single Godhead (divine nature) from himself for no one gave it to him but that the Godhead just is the Father. The Father being the origin of the Son and the Holy Spirit is superior to them in function because (a) they came from him and (b) the divine essence they possess is his own essence. In this case, it logically follows that since they share the same numerical essence (ουσια) with him, they are not different Gods but one God (by nature) with him.
I have a sincere question. I have been speaking to missionaries and exploring the church but this is one area I am still having issues with. Did God the Father (Father of Jesus) have a God that He worshipped when He was once a man like us? If so is His Father God the most high God or did our Father God become the most high during progression? Another question, as it seems important due to understanding His character. When God the Father was once a man did He sin like us before His progression? If so, it is still correct though that Jesus has never sinned? As He was not a man like us somehere else. He was only a man on this earth, as God in the flesh? Hopefully this all make sense ha. I am really trying to understand this concept, coming from an evangelical background.
Hey, I know your comment was posted a year ago, I just wanted to drop a thought, I think it's likely that any progression that took place for Heavenly Father occurred before what the Bible calls "the Beginning," and within this cycle of existence, Heavenly Father is sovereign. All the best, have a great day!
Just a few days ago I watched a Video by Apologia Utah with the title "Mormon Missionaries caught lying", where a Missionary pretended to not speak english for training purposes. To put up such a video with such a title is somewhat odd taken by itself, but what really made me kind of sad was their conclusion (in the description of the video) that this behaviour does not come from nowhere, accusing the church and its members that this is systematicall taught.. And so I thought to myself, what is worse, to lie, or to accuse with things that are not true? Why is one evil, and the other one justified? For sure the Elders could improve on their way to do things, but to judge an entire church and its people by the behaviour of two of its members, is like denying the sincerety of the twelve Apostles of Christ because on of them was a traitor. I love the way how you welcome good and open discussions, and I am glad that there are many Evangelicals that differ in their way to approach things.. I actually watched quite a few videos lately and find that there is a lot of accusation und judgement going on, all being justified by the scriptures.. So, keep up the great work and would love to see a discussion between Jeff and you guys..
@@mr400meter Well, we certainly agree that it was not right for the Elders to lie in that manner, but when you honestly think about it, their lie did not really cause any harm to anyone at that point, whilst putting them for that lie to public shame, accusing the church and its members that this kind of behaviour gets systematicall taught, does cause a little more harm, I would say.. Christ made clear that we get judged the way we judge, and to condemn the one, because it comes from a Mormon, and to justify the other, because its against a Mormon, may serve the own ego "of feeling saved and choosen above all the others", but it certainly is not what Christ would do.
@@SimonDaumMusic Lies don't have to cause harm for them still to be sinful. Question: Have you read "The Miracle of Forgiveness" by Spencer W. Kimball? I recently finished it.
I am the mother of four sons, when they were in Boy Scouts I used the merit badge process to explain the Godhead… Christ was the first of all Heavenly Father’s children to achieve the “God” merit badge The Atonement was his Eagle Scout project…
He was only wrong in fearing that many members wouldn't understand certain historical conclusions (pick your word). The new members could barely understand all what Joseph Smith taught. It's a delicate discussion but the day of test of testimonies is coming soon.
Actually ALL Christians must believe God was once a man, that is the definition of Christianity. So yes members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are required to believe God was once a man. Jehovah/YHWH was once a man, there is no denying that.
@mr400meter of course, as modalism is so obviously false, it is a wonder it still pops up. This doesn't change the fact that Jesus Christ is God/Jehovah and was at one point a mortal man.
The problem with Jeff and the most Protestant Evangelicals don't believe/ don't know the Holly Ghost. The thing it is just a feeling or intuition. Tis means they don't have a clue what the Spirit is. The are intellectual Christians.
@@andreatimmers1720 @mahonri69 meant to say "Holy Ghost" which in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is just an interchangeable title given to the Holy Spirit and it (the Holy Ghost as a title) is just as valid and good for the third member of the Godhead as is the "Holy Spirit" as a title. Obviously English is not mahonri's first language but he's trying and I believe he will get better at it with time and practice to where he could be fluent. But he is actually mostly understandable. So anyway, I think a little grace shown to him would go a long way in helping him be confident in learning English better and help him be better overall in everything. And it would certainly help him feel better with everything in life. And isn't being gracious and kind one of the points of living a good and loving life? I think so. Now I am far from perfect and I fall waaaayyyy short of the glory of Christ. And I know full well I am going to stumble a lot more in the future in my journey through life and in my desire to walk with God. So I am no better than you and probably far worse. And I realize you were just being curious as to who this "Holly Ghost" is but we should really cut mahonri some slack. Ok? God bless you and yours and take care.
It's to listen to Christian say how evil we are for believing that we can become gods, and then watch them sputter when you point out theosis. They will immediately start vomitting out straw men ("That doesn't mean we should be worshipped!" "Mormons never said that we should.") or straight up arguing against the Bible ("Yes we're one with Christ, but we don't become holy, we're still sinful so we can't be Gods!" "What does Isaiah mean by 'they shall call them The Holy People, the redeemed of the LORD'?"). There are differences, but the vast majority of them are in areas where Christianity is silent or has adopted an extra-biblical creed, not in contradiction to the Bible. Trinity is a perfect example; it is an interpretation of the Bible voted on by bishops. But show me in the Bible where God reveals himself to people BY POPULAR VOTE. The popular vote in the Bible almost always shown as wrong; it's what brings you the golden calf, why the Israelites stoned prophets or threw Jeremiah in a pit. Popular vote was to crucify Jesus. Popular vote was used exactly one time by church leaders in the Bible, at that was to replace Judas Iscariot with a new apostle, not to decide on doctrine. Peter and Paul both disagreed on what gentile adoption into the House of Israel meant... but not once was the issue put up for popular vote.
Typical Durban garbage. It’s difficult to watch him. Watching him for just a few minutes and using critical thinking quickly exposes his biases and poor scholarship/debatorship.
Simple: you can answer the question now outside of your silly back and forth with Jeff. Do you believe the King Follett discourse to be true? Have you read the history and context surrounding Theosis in Christian history? Do you think it’s the same doctrine? Any Mormon reading, feel free to answer.
Trinitarians are wrong again. There are many gods. 1,Cor8:6 Jn10:34,35 Only the Father is thd only true God, God absolute. Mk11:29,32 Some creatures with authority ate called God's, both spirits and humans.
But isn't part of the problem that alleged mormon prophets keep making all sorts of crazy statements? “As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may become.” COME ON! THAT certainly conveys that man can be equal with god, which is against everything in scripture!
@@adamcastle3626 Well, for starters, you have Joseph Smith Jr. and his family delving into the occult practices such as glass looking which he was convicted of in New York in 1826, you have him using using his hat in the rock gimmick for treasure digging (which wasn't successful) as the same mechanism for translating the book of Mormon, the Nauvoo Expositor fire by Joseph Smith, you have the Mountain Meadow massacre, the Adam-God doctrine of Brigham Young, and the priesthood ban on blacks to name a few. I'm sure you're aware of a few of these at least. Pretty sure they aren't taught at ward meetings.
Christ is the "door" to the sheep pen. It is by Christ's authority, and only through HIS power and grace, that salvation from ignorance comes, every single step of the way. And that power or grace from Jesus is called revelation, and his Church has always been and will always be a Church "based, built and sustained by immediate revelation." (See John 10:7, 1 Corinthians 2:11, 1 Peter 1:16-19, 2 Nephi 9:41-43, and the testimony of Oliver Cowdery.) If there is no manifestation of God's power to save from ignorance (revelation), there can be no understanding of saving Truth. If there is no institution through which the King works by that authority and power, there is no Kingdom, on earth or in heaven. Take 10,000 of the greatest Bible scholars in history, extend their lives by a million years, and not a single one would be able to get the meaning of the Bible right in their million-year lifetime. Not. A. Single. One. I also strongly suspect that many of the greatest Bible scholars have been taught the truth in the spirit world, and will someday happily testify to that fact. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.
There is only one God, one divine God, one true God, which is the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in one essence. Throughout scripture, it states there is only one divine God. Mormonism believes in many gods, that man can exalt himself and become a god, whatever you may call it, this is not God, God is the Alpha and the Omega, he is eternal, a man cannot be eternal because he is created, the Father has no body, He is a spirit. God is all mighty, all knowing, the creator of the universe and has always existed unlike man. There is ONLY one divine God, read the bible and you will know.
It boils down to there being a difference between two propositions: (1) There is a single, Supreme, Divine Being, called God. (2) No other thing exists in the universe that can be appropriately called a god, or divine. I strongly suspect that (2) actually came into existence during the near-apostasy that created the “hedge about the law,” when the Shema (Deut. 6:9) was actually changed by the Septuagint scholars to mean the number 1, even though the original text had three possible meanings. That basic logical error has been preserved by Protestants, in part, by relying on the Jewish tradition that was read into the Bible. It’s a rather ironic problem, since the Shema is used by both Jews and Muslims to deny Christ’s divinity.
Jeff: grabs our Lego set piece and tries to fit it on his mega blocks set. “See everyone. It doesn’t fit”
Jeff’s followers: 😯🤯🥰🤪💰💰💰
Love this analogy!
Then you admit you have a different religion ! LOL 😆
@@davidjanbaz7728 From Jeff? Absolutely. Not only are our world views and translations of the Bible incompatible, we are also thankful this is the case. The more I learn about Protestant beliefs the more I see it.
It’s evident in some pastors preaching how far one can go from Christ when using the spirit of man to interpret the Bible and not allowing the spirit to reveal or clarify anything. Religion from God is revealed. It’s always been that way.
@@davidjanbaz7728
Yes ! Different to yours. Ours the same Christ Taught!
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only Church with All His Authority and the complete Truth...
Every single sect on the planet does not have the complete truth and do not follow the True Christ.
They all claim we LDS follow a false Christ and claim we are deceived....
Nope! They are the ones who are deceived...
John prophesied and said ,,,,
"I saw an angel flying in the midst of heaven BRINGING the Everlasting Gospel to PREACH to the inhabitants of the earth before the Great and Terrible Day of the Coming of the Lord..."
So the question is....
Why would God find it necessary to send an angel to bring the Everlasting Gospel IF the Everlasting Gospel IS ALREADY HERE AND CONTAINED IN THE BIBLE. All of Christianity claims the Bible is all God ever intended for us. Ther is to be no further scripture from God but here we have God telling us he would send an angel to deliver the Everlasting Gospel! Hmmmmmmm!!!
The validity of the Christian doctrines, among all sects, ALL live or die, Stand or Fall on this one prophecy by John!!! Many other scriptures but this one alone would be enuff evidence for the sincere seeker of Truth!!!
It doesnt take the HG to tell anyone the answer to this question,
Dont be deceived!!!
This is His Gospel and Church...
Joseph was a Prophet of God.
The Book of Mormon IS the Everlasting Gospel prophesied would be delivered by an angel, coming from the presence of God the Father in the Last Days!!! His name was Moroni who delivered the ancient divine scriptural record we have today as the Book of Mormon TRANSLATED by the prophet Joseph Smith containing the Everlasting Gospel!!! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints ... is the Church and Kingdom of God on earth Restored by Christ Himself...
Plain Simple Beautiful Gospel Truth!!!
@@davidjanbaz7728 the same theology taught in the Bible (the Doctrine of Christ) is also taught in the Book of Mormon..
The Burger king of Anti-Mormonism (being as i understand it a "Reform Calvinist") has a completely different theology than is contained in the Bible, and as a follower, adherent, practitioner and promoter of such (reformed Calvinism), the theology he follows and ascribes to, is actually less than 50 years old - A much younger and newer theology than the so called "false Mormonism" he ignorantly attacks
I would ask Jeff - Are you a dad? Assuming he would say yes, then I would ask - Do you have children? Assuming he would say yes, then I would ask - is it possible that your children could have been created by some other dad before you or after you? Assuming he says no, then I factually can say to him - for your children, there is no dad formed before or no dad formed after you. You are and will be forever there only dad. We all, who have been born or will be born on this earfh, are known in the Christian world as children of God. Therefefore, there is no other God before God that could have created us, nor will there ever be a God after God that can create us because God is our father in Heaven. So we worship Him because He is our only God who created us.
Great way to describe that! Wow!
Excellent point. Yes, and what father doesn't want their children to grow and progress like them. I want my children to experience all the joys, successes and happiness I have received. And guess what, I want them to become fathers too and have children of their own. And just because I become a father doesn't mean that I no longer need my own earthly father or that I completely kick him out of my life. My father will always be someone I look to gain knowledge and wisdom from.
Heavenly Father who needed to be Exalted like Jesus because he wasn't God from the Beginning makes it impossible not to have an infinite regression of gods literally begetting gods from your infinite Universe that Mormons believe because your gods didn't create the Universe from Ex Nihilo as Colossians 1: 16,17 states.
@@davidjanbaz7728
Now wait a minute.
Somthn to consider!
Jesus said somethn of His relationship to His Father!
He declared....
" and I do Nothing of Myself BUT WHAT I HAVE SEEN MY FATHER DO!"
So Jesus declares He does what he has also seen his Father also has done!!!
HMMMMMMMMM!
Interesting.
Right out of Christs mouth!
End of discussion.... end of debate!!!
And this???
Heres a scripture among many evidencing the Bible is NOT all God intended for us!
The Apostle John prophesied and said!
" and I saw an Angel Flying in the midst of Heaven bringing the Everlasting Gospel to Preach to the Inhabitants of the Earth before the Great and Terrible Day of the Coming of the Lord"
Now why would God Almighty find it necessary to send an angel to Deliver the Everlasting Gospel IF the Everlasting Gospel is already contained in the Bible!
Clearly the Bible is not all God intended for us and the Bible does NOT contain the Everlasting Gospel! According to Johns Prophecy!!! In the Bible!!!
We as LDS Boldly but Humbly declare the Angel John saw and Prophesied of? Was the Angel Moroni who delivered the ancient scriptural record we have today as the Book of Mormon translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the Church and Kingdom of God here on earth today!!!
And the whole of so called Christianity Falls and Fails on this one Biblical Prophecy alone!!! And many MANY more scriptures!!! Say the same!!!
Simple Gospel Truth!!!
@@davidjanbaz7728 nowhere in the Bible does scripture say God created everything from nothing.
Matter is eternal ... cannot be created NOR destroyed.
God ORGANISED Unorganised matter to organise Worlds without Number....
A potter CREATES an eating container or a water jug out of Clay.
REMBRANDT CREATED works of art out of Unorganised paint matter using a paintbrush paint and a canvas.
So it is with God.
God did not create anything from Nothing.
He ORGANISED ALREADY UNORGANISED, EXISTING MATTER INTO ORDER...and in the same sense as the potter or REMBRANDT....created or Organised matter.
We know matter cannot be created NOR destroyed.
Simple....
To say God proofed everything into existence from nothing is stupid and Non Biblical....
Consider this....
If God is without beginning or end and has always existed!
Then what has God been doing throughout all time?
God has been sitting around since forever till one day he decided to create this Earth and people this planet with people?
To have us kneeling at His feet singing Him songs of praise forever!!!???
This is the be all end all purpose for all of His Works and Creation?
This is the Doctrine of so called Christianity is it not?
What a meaningless God to believe in!
He IS our Father and he literally wants us all to become as He Is!!!
Joking heirs.
Just like his Father before him!
Simple!!!
The Glory of God is Intelligences!!!
Not only is he missing the ball, but he’s still standing there swinging as if he’s gonna hit it
Great analogy!
@@establishingzion688 thank you! :D lol
Mormonism has been [striking out ] to Historical Christianity for 190+ years!
Jeff Durbin behaves like a scribe, he went to Bible college and he learned it a certain way by a certain interpretation with presuppositions, ideas that refine or contradict the simple things he learned from his scholarly institution aren’t welcome. They are part of his identity, the way he has built the image of himself, he will defend the teachings of the Bible college, that is the source of his authority, which isn’t the authority of God but the understanding of worldly appointed scholars.
Jeff says mormon the same way I imagine demons do. He’s so distraught that Jesus Christ Himself established the Church of Jesus Christ that he has to resort to euphemisms to try and maintain a foothold in the conversation at all
Does he not understand that Protestants and evangelists are on the outside of the covenant? They’re yelling over the wall at the bridal party
Solid
No that is arrogance. Emotions are not belief. My great uncle is an archeologist and they don't pay attention to religion only facts. There is no proof. None . Facts don't care about your feelings. If there is ever one scintilla of proof they will be all over it. He reminded me j k Rowling wrote the Harry Potter books as a single mom in the UK on welfare. Brilliant imagination
@@andreatimmers1720 JK Rowling spent years writing Harry Potter and used editors and lore experts, and still messed up continuity, still has to issue author opinions after the fact. And that’s not to diss her creative genius at all. She’s incredibly inventive. What she does is not what JS did, though. Two different processes.
Joseph neither wrote the BOM, used editors nor experts, didn’t refer to previous material, translated in a period of months (actual time spent translating even less), etc.
There’s even less evidence for the “Joseph wrote it somehow” hypothesis than any other. It’s not claimed by firsthand accounts, not supported in the documents, no evidence. It’s a cope and a cop-out for those who don’t like the explanation as provided by witnesses.
@@DallasCrane thanks for being so civil. Still bottom line no scientific proof. A huge civilization would leave remnants behind. It's a work of fiction to me until then.
Well done Jacob! Jeff is notoriously incorrect in what he portrays as our beliefs.
No, he actually did state what is official church teachings: Y aren't U believing those doctrines?
I mean what I'm about to say with the utmost respect:
If you close your eyes and listen to Jacob's voice, you'll see Bob the Tomato from VeggieTales.
Keep up the good work, Jacob. Love the stance you're making.
Oh my gosh😂😂I can hear it without my eyes closed👍😂
One of the problems that you are experiencing in your debate with Jeff Durbin is that he is supporting his point of view from a stance of sola Scriptura. One of the main beliefs of the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is that we claim to have ongoing revelation, that the Bible is not the only divine scriptural authority. Why not support your points of views using modern day revelation and the other standard works? You have pigeon holed yourselves into his framework of using just the Bible. I know that would change the nature of your debate. There is no way he can prove Sola Scriptura no matter what machinations he uses.
He is not letting you talk because if he allows you to really put out what you are saying then the people would hear you and probably leave him
They will not acknowledge the presupposition because if they give any ground, they lose their flock and their livelihood. This is why priestcraft is a bad thing.
Amen
44:45
the reason he does not engage ... is because if his audience witnessed the engagement ... he might lose some of his audience (and consequently some of his revenue)
Homie didn’t even let the other guy finish his thought before he launched into a nonsensical tirade😂🥴
He cuts Jacob off and goes on a tirad because he's trying to poison the well for his audience
@@oceancoast92657 yes and defend his indefensible stances
@@Killthesefears what then explain? corn ball...
Jeff was angry that you used his own colleagues to answer his Scriptures. It was absolute gold. Let them refute themselves so they can see their errors is the best refutation. Jacob is so good with that.
Exodus 21:6 and Exodus 22:8. Both translated 'judges" are from the hebrew "elohim." Those, I would contend, are the same "elohim" from Psalm 82. Human judges. They did not reach exaltation according to D&C 132.
@@mr400meter since when R human Judges in a Heavenly assembly!
See: Dr.Michael S.Heiser video on why Jacob's Mormon and your interpretation is erroneous.
@@davidjanbaz7728 The text doesn't say "heavenly assembly." Go read the entire Psalm (it's really short) and ask how these are the same type of gods in D&C 132 who are considered "worthy."
They clearly are not.
@@mr400meter dude, people watch this channel to increase our faith. We do not want/need people like you here to bash us. If you have legit questions trying to understand more we can answer them. But when you come off like that it is clear you are NOT seeking for truth. You are trying to tear truth down without even realizing it. Please just leave if you dont care for what we say or anything about Christs church.
@@lootingiv4058 Have you read any of Talmage's work in "Jesus the Christ..." regarding this issue?
The disdain for members of the Church that they have is telling - lets learn to love one another.
I love how Jeff accuses Jacob of quote mining yet that's literally all Jeff does
Jeff is a hack.He’s picking on you because he thinks he can dunk on you.
He didn’t give Robert Boylan’s article the same level of time and attention, even though Robert Boylan is widely regarded as the best LDS scriptorian.
He won’t engage with the best apologists.
Jeff durbin: "it doesn't say there are other gods in the bible."
Jacob: *uses Protestant scholars work to prove that eloheim refers to God, Sons of God, and angels indicating there are more gods*
Also Jeff: "it does say that but that's not what it means, the scriptures are incapable of contradicting my world view."
Elohim also refers to human judges too. See Exodus 21:6 and 22:8.
Jeff is Right that YHWH God Most High is the only Creator God: but the other Elohim of Deuteronomy 32:8 in the LXX are called the Sons of God not the Sons of Israel ( human judges).
These were given to the Nations as their gods and R the Pagan gods that R mentioned in the Bible.
They were supposed to educate the other nations about YHWH but they instead liked being viewed as the Most High God and corrupted their nations into losing their knowledge of YHWH as God Most High: that appeared to Abram in Genesis 17 : 1 and who Abram says that YHWH is God Most High in Genesis 14: 22 to the King of Sodom.
So both : Mormon and Jeff's interpretation of Psalm 82 as Dr.Michael S.Heiser article in the BYU religious journal points out : Jacob is trying to distort Dr.Michael S.Heiser's Trinitarian position that there is Only ONE God Most High and that humans can become gods ( Sons of God) in Deuteronomy 32:8 is not the Mormon view of actually becoming a God of there own planet creating humanoids like YHWH of the Old Testament who is the creator of The Heavens and Earth out of Ex Nihilo of Colossians 1 : 16,17.
Theosis is ( like) God in Holiness not becoming A God as A Creator God Most High.
Distortions don't take much as (A) in the New World Translation of John 1:1 in the JW Bible totally distorts Jesus as Equal to the Father as God and the Visible YHWH of the old Testament.
@@davidjanbaz7728 it really wouldn't be much of a different explanation. The word One in Hebrew is ichad or "compound unity". So look for it's uses. In Genesis Adam said "a man shall cleave unto his wife and they shall be one flesh" the use here is ichad or compound unity. So now we have evidence of two people being one without sharing the same body. We get to Deuteronomy "our Lord is one Lord" again ichad or compound unity. Then there's Jesus "I and my father are one" ichad or compound unity. So now you get to John 17 Jesus prayed for all of us "that they may be one as thou father art in me and I in thee that they may be one in us" ichad or compound unity. Paul said in Romans when we are redeemed we become joint heirs with Christ. Paul told the Corinthians that in resurrection our mortality is raised to immortality. You do believe all that I just quoted from the bible? If you're immortal and redeemed that makes you a god. So really whether you're latter day saint or Protestant it's the same thing. The only difference is the bible doesn't teach God's unity ends with the Trinity like Protestant minister's teach. So you can see if you're immortal and redeemed that can make you a god while there is still One God. The most high God. Ichad. Or compound unity.
So if it's the same thing Then the question comes down to who actually has the priesthood. Catholics claim they got it from Peter who ordained Linus a Bishop and that authority has passed down till today's Catholics. Protestants recognized the apostasy of the Catholic church and protested and were excommunicated for it. Which means you would have had to have priesthood restored at some point. But there's no evidence of that restoration. Not until 1829 when the resurrected and translated Peter James and John ordained Joseph Smith and Oliver cowdry as apostles who rebuilt the apostleship.
Jacob you did a great job in your videos! I've always liked this scripture in Romans 8
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
A joint heir is one who inherits.
In that text he is telling them not to make false Gods . Do not do that . They made gold wood etc. do not do that . I’m the only God you worship .
I am glad that Durban acknowledged that there are multiple connotations for the word "god" (elohim) This is also true for the words "lord" (adonai) and "father" (abba). I would be curious to learn if Durban applies the same "reasoning" to biblical passages claiming we have but one Father (Mal 2:10, Mt 23:9, Jn 10:30, Eph 4:6) as he does those claiming there is only one God? Does Durbin believe in Monopetarism? ;)
You’ve got this guy nervous!
I think last video Jacob made a great point about how Jeff isn't the type of person to give one inch on anything. He's the type of person that would say "I see how you could have come to that conclusion" or "you have a great point".
My honest opinion is that Jeff hates LDS people and it's nearly impossible to hide.
at least his god predestined him to do so. he's not ultimately at fault for it.
You hit the nail on the head, my friend. Jeff claims to love the lds people and community. He clearly hates Joseph smith and our religious beliefs, with a passion. You can clearly see it in his demeanor. He has a strong dislike for our faith.
@@thekolobsociety love what you say at the end about not holding the members accountable. It really came across as Nephites and Lamanites where their hatred towards the Nephites stemmed from what they were taught. God holds mercy towards those who have been taught incorrectly and very harsh judgement towards those who should know better such as the Pharisees.
Sad that Truth offens you but all cults feel that way!
LOL at Jacob's CYA ing in regards to Jeff's comment on other Elohim ( created Heavenly beings)
Ex Nihilo is a fact from Colossians 1:16,17 : Mormons refuse to accept the Bible as accurately translated and why they can disregard these verses of An Authentic Apostle of Jesus the Christ.
@@davidjanbaz7728 We do believe it is accurately translated. By Joseph Smith. Everyone who believes in the Bible thinks the version they read is accurate or their interpretation is truth. That’s the whole point.
But God is merciful and simultaneously brought up a second record to clarify and bring to light which version is correct and continues to guide us so those who truly know Christ will never apostatize. You get it?
Keep hammering this guy! This is awesome! If he's scared, and I think he is, he should take his video down. If his followers ever see the truth he'll be out of a job.
Yes, his religion is a business for sure. It's all about the dollar signs. I can only imagine how much he is making off his videos by trashing and attacking our faith and others.
If a child cant hug God, your religion is wrong. I love these videos, great work jacob.
Jesus is God and you will be able to hug him:)
@@mkprr yeah and I'm gonna hug His Father as well. You know, the Son sitting on His right hand.
@@topazblahblah that’s cool, we know from scripture that the father can manifest as a man or as anything else he wants to manifest as so I am sure he will be glad to hug you too.
@@mkprr But that additional “modalism" cannot be found in the Bible, and is actually considered heretical by most Trinitarians. Makes perfect sense in the LDS Godhead, though, if “God” is a also a title that’s used to refer to other Divine Beings.
@@towardcivicliteracy modalism is the idea that Jesus and the Father aren’t distinct persons in any way. That isn’t what I was referring to. I think modalism is mistaken. God manifested himself in bodily form though in the Old Testament a few times, and also as a burning bush, and as a cloud, and as a pillar of fire. If God wants to manifest himself to man kind He can and He has done so in various ways in scripture.
Jeff is the guy who throws dirt into your face.
It's called poisoning the well. He even says you don't address those verses....well you try to but I paused before you did and am offended you havent??? It's like he's terrified anyone watching will see too much of Jacob's perspective and think for themselves that he shows a miniscule amount of what you said.
The Bible mentions that the plagues were a judgement against the Egyptian gods in Exodus 12:12. If the gods did not exist, then he must be judging imaginary things
God: I judge your imaginary gods to be guilty. But they don’t exist, so therefore, I’m punishing you in their place.
Egypt: So basically for no reason at all?
God: pretty much.
Theosis is such a beautiful and giant proof of the truth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It's what the Bible teaches.
What does the Bible say about humans’ divine potential?
Several biblical passages intimate that humans can become like God. The likeness of humans to God is emphasized in the first chapter of Genesis: “God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. … So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”3 After Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,” God said they had “become as one of us,”4 suggesting that a process of approaching godliness was already underway. Later in the Old Testament, a passage in the book of Psalms declares, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”5
New Testament passages also point to this doctrine. When Jesus was accused of blasphemy on the grounds that “thou, being a man, makest thyself God,” He responded, echoing Psalms, “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?”6 In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus commanded His disciples to become “perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”7 In turn, the Apostle Peter referred to the Savior’s “exceeding great and precious promises” that we might become “partakers of the divine nature.”8 The Apostle Paul taught that we are “the offspring of God” and emphasized that as such “we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.”9 The book of Revelation contains a promise from Jesus Christ that “to him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”10
These passages can be interpreted in different ways. Yet by viewing them through the clarifying lens of revelations received by Joseph Smith, Latter-day Saints see these scriptures as straightforward expressions of humanity’s divine nature and potential. Many other Christians read the same passages far more metaphorically because they experience the Bible through the lens of doctrinal interpretations that developed over time after the period described in the New Testament.
I was so close to losing my testimony a while ago, because I stumbled upon Jeff Durbin‘s videos… But thank God I listen to the spirit and I knew that Jeff Durbin was misled and only looking through the lens of a Calvinist Cristian. Anyway, thank you guys so much for all that you do in helping us, keep our faith, strong, and doing the Lords work!
I feel you brother. I too feel victim to his videos. I asked God to remove my blindfolds and re-teach me. I came out with an even stronger testimony of The Book of Mormon and temple work. I hope you spread your experience as often as you can. There are a lot of members who will greatly benefit from knowing where to find answers from someone who has experienced what they currently are.
I found many of his videos useful and faith-promoting, and my feed was filling up with protestant apologists who made lots of good points, and I wondered if there were any latter-day saying apologists. So I looked it up, and found myself on this channel. Of course, lots of anti stuff comes up when you search anything about the church, which is irritating, but it is what it is. I didn't know he was Calvinist until Jacob.
Jeff Durbin is a good debater. He is well versed in the Bible and has a designed track to try and lead the innocent down his Calvinist path. . He uses the Bible as his claim to authority. Just like the pastors of Joseph Smiths time. The same Bible that we use to state our position. A Bible a Bible. It’s not enough. That is the why there thousands of different churches. Authority comes from God and given to only those whom he chooses and it’s done by those who have been given that authority like Aaron by the laying on of hands. I can trace that authority back to Peter James and John who where given it by Jesus Christ himself.,
@@jeffreyturner4252 Your ignorance is overwhelming : The JST adds And subtracts from the Word of God ( Revelation) and The Book of Revelation says that is getting Joseph Smith cursed which is why he died!
God's word is never broken without consequences!
@@davidjanbaz7728
Revelations!!!???
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only Church with All His Authority and the complete Truth...
Every single sect on the planet does not have the complete truth and do not follow the True Christ.
They all claim we LDS follow a false Christ and claim we are deceived....
Nope! They are the ones who are deceived...
John prophesied and said ,,,,
"I saw an angel flying in the midst of heaven BRINGING the Everlasting Gospel to PREACH to the inhabitants of the earth before the Great and Terrible Day of the Coming of the Lord..."
So the question is....
Why would God find it necessary to send an angel to bring the Everlasting Gospel IF the Everlasting Gospel IS ALREADY HERE AND CONTAINED IN THE BIBLE. All of Christianity claims the Bible is all God ever intended for us. Ther is to be no further scripture from God but here we have God telling us he would send an angel to deliver the Everlasting Gospel! Hmmmmmmm!!!
The validity of the Christian doctrines, among all sects, ALL live or die, Stand or Fall on this one prophecy by John!!! Many other scriptures but this one alone would be enuff evidence for the sincere seeker of Truth!!!
It doesnt take the HG to tell anyone the answer to this question,
Dont be deceived!!!
This is His Gospel and Church...
Joseph was a Prophet of God.
The Book of Mormon IS the Everlasting Gospel prophesied would be delivered by an angel, coming from the presence of God the Father in the Last Days!!! His name was Moroni who delivered the ancient divine scriptural record we have today as the Book of Mormon TRANSLATED by the prophet Joseph Smith containing the Everlasting Gospel!!! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints ... is the Church and Kingdom of God on earth Restored by Christ Himself...
Simple Plain Beautiful Gospel Truth!!!
You swim laps around jiffy Jeff. You and Jeff can be the 2.0 of hello saints and Cwic show... They are a Little more civil 🫣😂. Keep up the good work!!
Weird that he believes in a God that can’t create after his own kind. Imagine having children and making sure they can’t progress to your level of intelligence? What kind of limited or jealous God do they worship? Just is the problem I see with the limited and tyrannical God of the reformation. This may be a better way to approach this debate vs. the academic path that appears to have its own issues. What kind of God is worthy of our worship, devotion and honor? In my opinion it isn’t the Calvinist belief for sure!!! Also, why does it even matter if their are other deities as long as they are ONE with the Godhead (which is a pluralistic organization in itself).
Yes!!!
Pluralistic for sure!!!
33:11 it's funny how early in the video, Jeff says he's good friends with Hiser and could call him into the studio to refute Jacob, but then turns around and calls Hiser sloppy. 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️ Epic fail
Bottom line...if you have ever met any 5 point Calvinists you would never want to go to 5 point Calvinist heaven if you had to be surrounded by 5 point Calvinists. 😂
Calvinism is messed up yes but lots of Calvinists are awesome loving Christians in spite of their strange doctrine.
They'd just say that God hasn't regenerated your heart so you can understand TULIP. Their confirmation bias is insufferable.
But you R OK with Hitler accepting the Mormon Gospel in the Afterlife and being in the Celestial kingdom! LOL 😆
Y R U being baptized for people like Hitler, Stalin, Mao , Muhammad, etc.
@@davidjanbaz7728 No, I'm not, jazzband, no I'm not. Knowing that Calvinism is not the true gospel doesn't mean I think bad moustache man has the truth either. Poor reasoning on your end.
@@wes2176 your talking about Joseph Smith's wes dreams : you need to talk to your bishop !
Everyone in this thread should swing over to Jeff’s channel and video and drop a debate note in his comment threads to see if Jeff will bite.
Jacob is open to it, why isn’t Jeff?
They used to engage with comments much more than they do now, I still try occasionally as I refine my points for them to review but they and their followers engage less perhaps that they have been told not to.
@@boltrooktwo Agreed but this is about having a discussion. A debate between these 2 would be great! Defend their position content creation is wonderful.
The Athanasian Creed puts Jeff Durbin's soul in jeopardy of perishing everlastingly.
Joseph Smith's lies R dragging your soul into outer darkness !
Just watched this vid and others with jd.
Also watched the great debate where you debunked sola scriptura.
BTW, why are Calvinists even talking to anyone about anything.
They’re already elected and “saved” so any proselytizing by them is moot.
And you, and the rest of us, are already a done deal. So no point, right.
We are taught to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not to argue and refute other’s beliefs.
This is a waste of your time
I spoke on one of his lives and he SO rudely cut me off and went on a tirade about "Mormons"...completely disregarding what I was saying...which was basically just pointing out how we are not included in "their Christian family - the body of Christ." He went OFF, then dismissed me and moved on like I suddenly ceased to exist. He is insanely arrogant and nasty.
He SAYS he loves Latter Day Saints and is all teddy bear toward LDS people, but the truth is he is a former MMA fighter. What he really loves is to win!!!!
Was it in the live-feed?
Which one . Proof? He pretty much talks baby talk to LDS. if you make a claim back it up otherwise it's false
@@geoffshelley2427yes all 5 X black belts are killers. My brother was an army ranger is he bad too?
Yes. He takes biblical poetry that is full of metaphor and imagery, and is also steeped in Jewish traditions, idioms, and history, then takes the English translation literally - with no shred of literary interpretation.
These verses can easily mean:
43:10 - As far as this world is concerned, no one will ever replace me.
44:6 and 44:8 - No one will ever compare. President Hinckley once said that beside the Savior, there is no light. That's imagery. The interpretation is clear, "nothing compares to the light (which is interchangable with "truth") of the Savior."
We have a God, father of our spirits, architect of the earth, and provider of a savior. He is the Most High God (to us). If "Bob" is able to be exalted and progresses to the point of fathering spirits, creates or has an "earth" created, provides a savior, etc... "Bob" will be the Most High God to his spirit children. Yet to "Bob", his father will be the Most High God to him. Jeff is adding and subtracting single digit numbers, which is easy for most. But the plan of salvation (Godhood) in advanced algebra.
Telling you you should be embarrassed... Jeff Durbin and James White do that a lot where they make this huge deal about something someone said as if it's so obviously off base it's ridiculous. And then they either never actually tell us what this HUGE OBVIOUS DISTINCTION is, or they say the same thing their opponent said 😂 They are the ones who should be embarrassed
Henotheism? Don't you mean monolatry, since henotheism is allowing/encouraging people worship of other gods? (Monolatry acknowledges that other gods exist, but is intolerant in worshipping them)
But yeah.... that guy would get a heart attack if he found out how many and which beings are called Elohim in the old testament
Apologia has 478K subscribers, Thoughtful Faith has 8.6k. How much more growth would Thoughtful Faith get if they destroyed Jeff in this back and forth debate? Plus, the cherry on top of teaching members how to handle these people with truth and the scriptures.😜
the "destroyed jeff" speech, regardless of being figurative, is disturbing. same for both "sides". we shouldnt be trying to destroy anyone
I don't care to much about the numbers I look at the character of faith
Nonsense. You can't be serious. If what you say is true, it would have happened a long rime ago. When have you ever seen a prophet or apostle debate Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, or Pat Robertson??
Well, to be fair, like with Leftists, you can't expect people who aren't objective and of good character to actually "change their mind" when shown superior and actually truthful arguments. People are "invested" in their ideologies.... And to be clear, I judge Apologia as lacking character because True "Christians" don't bear false witness. They may disagree with others, but Anti-mormons like they serve a special "god", aka the bad one. Because the True God doesn't misrepresent, and willfully others.
@@christophereasley7336 It's a debate.
I believe that we (LDS) often teach that there are NO other Gods that we have anything to do with!😊
Exactly...46-year-old, lifelong member seeing this too.
Who is the god that you do believe in?
@@Paul-rg4is We believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. Together, They are one Godhead, or one God. We pray to the Father, same as Jesus taught. The Father also has the name-title of Elohim, after the Hebrew meaning of "head God of the Gods." We don't have revealed to us exactly what that means. We do not believe that any one prophet, ancient or modern, was or is perfect at their job as prophet. We believe God is perfect at using imperfect people (us) to accomplish His perfect, holy will. However, since God forces no one to choose either good or bad, men and prophets and believers can stray from His will up to the points of His withdrawing His power/priesthood and blessings from the prophets and believers up to entire destruction, as with the great flood of Noah.
Yes, we have several unique, "strange" doctrines (many of which DO have biblical bases in suggestive, corroborating verses--such as the three heavens Paul writes about). For me, a key take-away on the "strange" doctrines so widely criticized and argued about are that none of them are the core/key doctrines of coming to God with believing, humble hearts and minds, repenting and being baptized and seeking to do good and live uprightly.
I don't count myself a biblical scholar/professor but I have studied it much and some parts intently. So easily and in basic ways, I see at least some parts of the Bible that contradict, phrases that don't fit (having clear language errors), and parts that are missing--clearly presenting a problem to any sincere student or disciple. I do not, however, let this lead me to reject the book or disbelieve its primary stories and characters, especially its central witness of Jesus in the New Testament. To me, The Book of Mormon--Another Testament of Jesus Christ is exactly that, a witness of the Lord from another people/nation. You do know that the prophets from the Book of Mormon itself know and state that the book is not perfect? I've studied it extensively and know it leads people closer to Jesus, same as the Bible. The devil is not going to inspire a book that esteems Jesus Christ as the Son of God and anointed and prophesied Messiah, Savior and Redeemer. You don't have to believe it...your choice.
You don't have to believe anything from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the men we hold to be modern prophets and apostles. However, please know that debating the "strange" doctrines intellectually (by analyzing words and verses) is not going to be fruitful. Paul gave the key to finding spiritual truth: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
In my opinion, it is all the more believable to me that any and every truth, doctrine or witnessing book of God, God is going to leave, intentionally, room for doubt and disbelief. Which buildings break and crumble in earthquakes? Ones not just lacking basic strength, but any that are +too rigid+; strong but flexible buildings survive while rigid, inflexible ones fail and crumble. I can deal with spiritual ambiguity, unclear and even "strange" doctrines, doubts, etc.--++all sorts of flaws and imperfections++--because my core faith/strength is in Jesus Christ. One day, but not today, we will see as we are seen, will see all things and have no misunderstandings or confusion, etc. This life is a TEST where God won't give us an open answer key (or else no longer a test) that we can run through a copy machine and pass around, easy-peasy, plain for disbelieving (searching the way natural men do) and believing (spiritually sensing) alike to see.
The invitation about The Book of Mormon (and for the story of Joseph Smith and for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) is to read it and ask God its truth; the invitation and challenge is to learn (discern) +spiritually+ (not intellectually or by "the natural man")--you individually, direct from God and not from my words, anyone else's words or through any specific study or debate--its truth (and the other, associated truths). Please, the crux of the matter is not scriptural and doctrinal debate but hearts with love for God and humble study and prayer.
What about Adam according to Brigham Young?
@@mr400meterwhat about it ? There is no Adam God theory . Brigham young knows that Adam is not God and does not teach that .
Thanks for this and for doing apologetic reasons for our faith. About Jeff. Keep in mind that he is a former MMA champion fighter. While he SAYS he loves Latter Day Saints and is all teddy bearish toward LDS people, the truth is that what he loves really is to win!!!!
He had a life-changing transformational experience with evangelical Christianity and subsequently bought into the indoctrination fed to him by the faith that so dramatically changed him. It would be a denial of himself and his very sense of self, as he's become, to go against what he's been indoctrinated with. I suspect that is why he's so adamant about his stance.
jeff durbin don't want to become a god in the future he don't want a eternal progression. He didn't realize that we are all heavenly beings before the creation of the world, he didn't know that we all are co existence with the God.
Why do we even care what this false teacher (Durbin the Turban), has to say about scripture? He fulfills the apostle Paul's teaching "change the truth of God into a lie." Roman's 1:25
I have absolutely no idea if Jeff really understands the doctrine of theosis, even by Eastern Orthodox standards. If he just means a human that becomes a god never becomes or displaces the Supreme Being, he’s preaching to the choir. It’s been very common for anti-Mormons since the 1800s to point to non-orthodox, speculative statements by Church leaders to push the idea that we can somehow overtake, catch up to, or surpass the Supreme Being in some sense-even though that doesn’t appear to be what ANY of them meant. But it is interesting to see faithful Bible scholarship moving in the general “henotheistic” direction, whatever caveats they attach to it. This is stuff Joseph knew in the 1840s.
I once called Jeff Durbin an example of a new hipster Christian generation. He did not know what a hipster was.
I don't either and I am from the hood
Jeff being Jeff... its been the same for the past decade at least.
Love Jeff Durbin!
Jeff is a Modern-day Pharisee & Saducee. Heretic of the GRANDEST porportions.
I find it interesting how Jeff and his team made those two response videos in fairly close succession, but he hasn't gotten around to refuting Jacob's soteriology video and has started responding to David Alexander. Furthermore, Jeff Durbin is a slanderer and deserves no credibility for his religious work.
I can’t get over Jeff stating Christ created Satan? 🤦🏼♀️
Stooooopidity.... but thats what they teach and believe ....
They also teach we are all PREDESTINED!!!
Excellent!
I think Jeff is scared to debate you guys.
Psalm 96:5 makes it obvious that these "gods" are idols. They are fake.
In Jeff's defense, I think he's trying to be more like his conception of God because he's trying to create something out of nothing which is what his entire defense is based on 😉
Hi Chris.
You’re an idolator.
Yip
I've been enjoying this volley between Jacob and Jeff. When I listened to Jeff's response to your videos, I was appalled at how bad they were. I'd love to see a debate but won't get my hopes up. I don't think Jeff will agree to it.
Jeff and you should both discuss in person and youtube that. Too much time in response to each video.
Around the 35:08 minute mark Jacob said: "and what he meant by that . . ." If you have to tell people what Jesus meant, then aren't you imposing your own interpretation on what Jesus actually said? Let's be intellectually honest here. Mormons, like Jeff Durbin, see their "God" based on their LDS "worldview" or LDS Theology. Even Mormons are guilty of imposing their "worldview" and beliefs about God on to the Biblical text. Case in point, Ezekiel's revelation concerning the two sticks.
You: based
Him: not based.
Jeff Durbin fears his day of exposure is coming.
It's clear that you have rattled Jeff Durbin. He's scared that you have dismantled his interpretation of Isaiah and his argument for monotheism. Apply Hebrew idiom in understanding Isaiah and his argument against the Restoration falls apart. It's sad, because Jeff Durbin's belief in the Trinity compels him to ignore and/or explain away these passages pointed out by Heiser. He even turns Psalm 82 into a lie.
If anyone is curious the Japanese on his shirt says Mickey Mouse. Sort of appropriate...
Jeff has to constantly blaspheme the Holy Ghost by denying it can have any impact or effect on us. Sola scriptura demands he do it. He also has to continually scare people away from the cool kids to protect his livelihood. And yes, I'm impugning his motives. LDS are the cool kids yet he's trying to attract/keep believers inside a limited, frozen-in-time Gospel. It's definitely not the fulness. God is not necessarily dead in his theology - but as a calvinist he has to admit that God has predetermined everything and you may be excluded from the "salvation club" from birth. Sucks to be you - that you aren't as cool as Jeff.
"The Bible says this....the Bible says that...." Lolololol. The presupposition the Bible does anything (it doesn't, it is simply a bunch of writings that man compiled together. It is just an inanimate object) and that the content of the Bible is the end all of everything is such a mockery of the Master of the Universe.
If God wanted to make a rulebook/playbook/book of doctrine, He surely could have done so perfectly and plopped it in Adam’s lap and called it a day. The fact that God didn’t do this should speak volumes to everyone.
Regardless, you don’t need the Bible to understand self-evident things. For example, just look at yourself in the mirror and you can see that you are so much more than your physical meat-suit. You are an eternal spirit presently housed in those several octillion atoms you see before you. You can see the same as you truly look with your spiritual eyes into the eyes of all people. It is self-evident that we are all eternal beings with the potential to become gods ourselves. Just put off the natural/carnal mind and see the real world through your spiritual eyes.
Why would Jeff Durbin quote Isaiah 44:6?
That verse states two Lord's. God and His Redeemer.
Jeff just said using historical context is a bad thing at 38:03
How dare you use words according to their original meaning and purpose!
@@KnuttyEntertainment you know how to distort those words very well!
Durbin is so stuck on his personal interpretation/presumption of bible knowledge he shows his ignorance. Instead of sharing Heiser's actual words, we get Durbin's personal interpretation of Heiser (seeing a pattern yet.) Jacob had the integrity to play the video from Michael Heiser in his own words at great length so we can draw our own conclusions. AND Durbin does not carry the spirit with him. He's too busy sewing contention and false information (like personal attacks).
I don’t think that truth is established through debate. Only consensus.
Victory in a debate does not prove your point as truth. It merely proves that you were the better debater.
I don’t think that it’s Christlike to seek out a theological debate (could be wrong here) against an anti. It was the antichrists in the Book of Mormon that sought debate with the ordained servants of the Lord: namely Sherem, Korihor, and Nehor.
Refute false doctrines on your channel but don’t feel the need to debate the Jeff Durbins of the internet.
As far as the confusion surrounding the singularity/plurality of God. Let’s recall that the relationship that exists between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is pure Zion. Zion is one in heart. Multiple people acting as one. It’s only natural for we worldly beings to struggle finding the boundaries between the beings of the godhead. I believe we don’t need to try to distinguish between them because they make a great and consistent effort to be ONE. And they even invite us to be one with them.
OK... someone explain the apologia logo to me. It looks like a drum 🥁 set dripping 💦 blood with a celtic triskelion stamped on the front.
I think it would have helped if the words "Deity" and or "Deities" were used instead of just referring to "divinity" or "heavenly beings" when talking about the topics in this video.
I would like to point out that when you spoke of Theosis, Jeff let you speak for a total of 7 seconds, not even letting you finished your point on the matter. He jumped to many many conclusions without listening.
Nothing about Jeff Durbin reminds me of Jesus Christ. He brings a bad spirit.
If we wanted an actual tests it with an orthodox bishop, we would actually give it tot him and give no context and ask what they think. Then some of the biases can be reduced
What I like about the LDS theology is that they have a much clearer concept of what will happen once we get to Heaven.
Please please please have more conversations with eastern Orthadox. It would be such an interesting conversation, especially on the concept of theosis. Side note, theosis is coming into union with god through theosis. It is sharing his energy, but not His essence and becoming separate Gods. That’s the difference.
How do Orthodox Christians define the Trinity in relation to each person? Do they believe Jesus and the Father and The Holy Ghost are equal in every way (divinity, power, authority, essense)?
I’m so tired of Protestants and evangelists. They’re spawn from a corrupt catholic tree and their beliefs are rooted in shallow sand. It gets so boring to hear
how can you share essence (which is divine) without sharing divinity? that is contradictory if we are using their terminology.
@@alejandrovalenzuela377 I did not mean to write essence, my apologies. We becoming in union with His energy. To take part in His essence would be contradictory. Thanks for catching my mistake. I’ll change it
@@jacobsamuelson3181 The Father as the only true God is the sole source of both the Godhead and of the Trinity. Thus, when Holy Scripture calls him the only God or the one God, it means that the Father has a superior status, not superior ontology. The Father possesses the single Godhead (divine nature) from himself for no one gave it to him but that the Godhead just is the Father. The Father being the origin of the Son and the Holy Spirit is superior to them in function because (a) they came from him and (b) the divine essence they possess is his own essence. In this case, it logically follows that since they share the same numerical essence (ουσια) with him, they are not different Gods but one God (by nature) with him.
I have a sincere question. I have been speaking to missionaries and exploring the church but this is one area I am still having issues with.
Did God the Father (Father of Jesus) have a God that He worshipped when He was once a man like us? If so is His Father God the most high God or did our Father God become the most high during progression?
Another question, as it seems important due to understanding His character. When God the Father was once a man did He sin like us before His progression?
If so, it is still correct though that Jesus has never sinned? As He was not a man like us somehere else. He was only a man on this earth, as God in the flesh?
Hopefully this all make sense ha. I am really trying to understand this concept, coming from an evangelical background.
Depends on which Mormon apostle you read. The answer by many is "yes."
Hey, I know your comment was posted a year ago, I just wanted to drop a thought, I think it's likely that any progression that took place for Heavenly Father occurred before what the Bible calls "the Beginning," and within this cycle of existence, Heavenly Father is sovereign. All the best, have a great day!
Just a few days ago I watched a Video by Apologia Utah with the title "Mormon Missionaries caught lying", where a Missionary pretended to not speak english for training purposes. To put up such a video with such a title is somewhat odd taken by itself, but what really made me kind of sad was their conclusion (in the description of the video) that this behaviour does not come from nowhere, accusing the church and its members that this is systematicall taught.. And so I thought to myself, what is worse, to lie, or to accuse with things that are not true? Why is one evil, and the other one justified?
For sure the Elders could improve on their way to do things, but to judge an entire church and its people by the behaviour of two of its members, is like denying the sincerety of the twelve Apostles of Christ because on of them was a traitor.
I love the way how you welcome good and open discussions, and I am glad that there are many Evangelicals that differ in their way to approach things.. I actually watched quite a few videos lately and find that there is a lot of accusation und judgement going on, all being justified by the scriptures..
So, keep up the great work and would love to see a discussion between Jeff and you guys..
Well, they did lie.
@@mr400meter Yes, so did the accusers.. so why throw the first stone?
@@SimonDaumMusic Come again? Don't you believe lying for the Lord is a righteous thing?
@@mr400meter Well, we certainly agree that it was not right for the Elders to lie in that manner, but when you honestly think about it, their lie did not really cause any harm to anyone at that point, whilst putting them for that lie to public shame, accusing the church and its members that this kind of behaviour gets systematicall taught, does cause a little more harm, I would say..
Christ made clear that we get judged the way we judge, and to condemn the one, because it comes from a Mormon, and to justify the other, because its against a Mormon, may serve the own ego "of feeling saved and choosen above all the others", but it certainly is not what Christ would do.
@@SimonDaumMusic Lies don't have to cause harm for them still to be sinful.
Question:
Have you read "The Miracle of Forgiveness" by Spencer W. Kimball? I recently finished it.
Trust, get greg matsen from cwic media in this argument and i swear bro i will flabbergas jeff durbin
When will you follow truth rather than bend the facts to make your version ‘truth’
40:45
c.s. lewis agrees we will become gods.
I am the mother of four sons, when they were in Boy Scouts I used the merit badge process to explain the Godhead… Christ was the first of all Heavenly Father’s children to achieve the “God” merit badge
The Atonement was his Eagle Scout project…
Haha that is a great allegory.
I’d like to see the original video from Michael Heiser. Have a link?
What was Bruce R McConkie wrong about?????
Ummmm... What are you referring to?
He was only wrong in fearing that many members wouldn't understand certain historical conclusions (pick your word). The new members could barely understand all what Joseph Smith taught. It's a delicate discussion but the day of test of testimonies is coming soon.
@@whatsstandard in the video they alluded to Bruce McConkie being wrong about some things.
@@WatchingwaitingG2D thank you :)
Jeff in the thumbnail is an accurate representation of the true depth of his explanations.
There was a reason why Floyd Mayweather didn’t take fights
They don't use the King James Bible.
Actually ALL Christians must believe God was once a man, that is the definition of Christianity. So yes members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are required to believe God was once a man. Jehovah/YHWH was once a man, there is no denying that.
Heavenly Father is not the same as Jesus. We aren’t modalists.
@mr400meter of course, as modalism is so obviously false, it is a wonder it still pops up. This doesn't change the fact that Jesus Christ is God/Jehovah and was at one point a mortal man.
The problem with Jeff and the most Protestant Evangelicals don't believe/ don't know the Holly Ghost. The thing it is just a feeling or intuition. Tis means they don't have a clue what the Spirit is. The are intellectual Christians.
I have never heard of Holly ghost
@@andreatimmers1720
@mahonri69 meant to say "Holy Ghost" which in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is just an interchangeable title given to the Holy Spirit and it (the Holy Ghost as a title) is just as valid and good for the third member of the Godhead as is the "Holy Spirit" as a title.
Obviously English is not mahonri's first language but he's trying and I believe he will get better at it with time and practice to where he could be fluent. But he is actually mostly understandable.
So anyway, I think a little grace shown to him would go a long way in helping him be confident in learning English better and help him be better overall in everything. And it would certainly help him feel better with everything in life. And isn't being gracious and kind one of the points of living a good and loving life? I think so.
Now I am far from perfect and I fall waaaayyyy short of the glory of Christ. And I know full well I am going to stumble a lot more in the future in my journey through life and in my desire to walk with God. So I am no better than you and probably far worse. And I realize you were just being curious as to who this "Holly Ghost" is but we should really cut mahonri some slack. Ok?
God bless you and yours and take care.
It's hard to see past arrogance.
Will you PLEASE post a link to heisers video?
It's to listen to Christian say how evil we are for believing that we can become gods, and then watch them sputter when you point out theosis. They will immediately start vomitting out straw men ("That doesn't mean we should be worshipped!" "Mormons never said that we should.") or straight up arguing against the Bible ("Yes we're one with Christ, but we don't become holy, we're still sinful so we can't be Gods!" "What does Isaiah mean by 'they shall call them The Holy People, the redeemed of the LORD'?").
There are differences, but the vast majority of them are in areas where Christianity is silent or has adopted an extra-biblical creed, not in contradiction to the Bible. Trinity is a perfect example; it is an interpretation of the Bible voted on by bishops. But show me in the Bible where God reveals himself to people BY POPULAR VOTE. The popular vote in the Bible almost always shown as wrong; it's what brings you the golden calf, why the Israelites stoned prophets or threw Jeremiah in a pit. Popular vote was to crucify Jesus. Popular vote was used exactly one time by church leaders in the Bible, at that was to replace Judas Iscariot with a new apostle, not to decide on doctrine. Peter and Paul both disagreed on what gentile adoption into the House of Israel meant... but not once was the issue put up for popular vote.
Typical Durban garbage. It’s difficult to watch him. Watching him for just a few minutes and using critical thinking quickly exposes his biases and poor scholarship/debatorship.
Simple: you can answer the question now outside of your silly back and forth with Jeff.
Do you believe the King Follett discourse to be true?
Have you read the history and context surrounding Theosis in Christian history?
Do you think it’s the same doctrine?
Any Mormon reading, feel free to answer.
Trinitarians are wrong again. There are many gods. 1,Cor8:6 Jn10:34,35 Only the Father is thd only true God, God absolute. Mk11:29,32 Some creatures with authority ate called God's, both spirits and humans.
But isn't part of the problem that alleged mormon prophets keep making all sorts of crazy statements? “As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may become.” COME ON! THAT certainly conveys that man can be equal with god, which is against everything in scripture!
Jeff is just a coward. He is going to attack The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints cause his threaten by us for what reason is unknown.
Well, if you knew all of the skeletons your organization has, you would actually come to appreciate Apologia for reaching out to you all.
And what skeletons might that be? Please enlighten me?
@@adamcastle3626 Well, for starters, you have Joseph Smith Jr. and his family delving into the occult practices such as glass looking which he was convicted of in New York in 1826, you have him using using his hat in the rock gimmick for treasure digging (which wasn't successful) as the same mechanism for translating the book of Mormon, the Nauvoo Expositor fire by Joseph Smith, you have the Mountain Meadow massacre, the Adam-God doctrine of Brigham Young, and the priesthood ban on blacks to name a few. I'm sure you're aware of a few of these at least. Pretty sure they aren't taught at ward meetings.
Christ is the "door" to the sheep pen. It is by Christ's authority, and only through HIS power and grace, that salvation from ignorance comes, every single step of the way. And that power or grace from Jesus is called revelation, and his Church has always been and will always be a Church "based, built and sustained by immediate revelation." (See John 10:7, 1 Corinthians 2:11, 1 Peter 1:16-19, 2 Nephi 9:41-43, and the testimony of Oliver Cowdery.)
If there is no manifestation of God's power to save from ignorance (revelation), there can be no understanding of saving Truth. If there is no institution through which the King works by that authority and power, there is no Kingdom, on earth or in heaven. Take 10,000 of the greatest Bible scholars in history, extend their lives by a million years, and not a single one would be able to get the meaning of the Bible right in their million-year lifetime. Not. A. Single. One. I also strongly suspect that many of the greatest Bible scholars have been taught the truth in the spirit world, and will someday happily testify to that fact. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.
There is only one God, one divine God, one true God, which is the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in one essence. Throughout scripture, it states there is only one divine God. Mormonism believes in many gods, that man can exalt himself and become a god, whatever you may call it, this is not God, God is the Alpha and the Omega, he is eternal, a man cannot be eternal because he is created, the Father has no body, He is a spirit. God is all mighty, all knowing, the creator of the universe and has always existed unlike man. There is ONLY one divine God, read the bible and you will know.
It boils down to there being a difference between two propositions:
(1) There is a single, Supreme, Divine Being, called God.
(2) No other thing exists in the universe that can be appropriately called a god, or divine.
I strongly suspect that (2) actually came into existence during the near-apostasy that created the “hedge about the law,” when the Shema (Deut. 6:9) was actually changed by the Septuagint scholars to mean the number 1, even though the original text had three possible meanings.
That basic logical error has been preserved by Protestants, in part, by relying on the Jewish tradition that was read into the Bible. It’s a rather ironic problem, since the Shema is used by both Jews and Muslims to deny Christ’s divinity.