When I was a protestant believer I never read the early Apostolic Church Fathers for myself, but when I did I was stocked with what I read. To be truthful it was scary, but soothing @ the same time. But one of the reasons I started to read the early apostolic church fathers, was bc I realized that the Apostles did not fail to teach other faithful men after them, & pass down traditions= as 2 thess 2:15 states. Plus we see it all over the Holy Bible, that the Apostles were teaching other men, so i wanted to kno who were these other men after the Apostles died.. I realize that if the apostles failed, that means Jesus Christ failed, bc he did not train his Apostles well enough to train, & teach other men. then I realize if Jesus failed that means the Holy Spirit failed to, bc he did not keep the church whole as one= as John 16:12-13 states. So I went to the early church history, & basically that's all she wrote, and now I'm on my way home to Rome crossing the Tiber praise the Lord... God bless u all🙏🏼💯🇻🇦
"I realize that if the apostles failed, that means Jesus Christ failed," Exactly right. Jesus made several PROMISES. He's dependable enough and powerful enough to keep them: Christ is the head of his Church (Col 1: 18) Christ''s Church is the pillar of truth (1 Tim 3: 15) Christ's Church is the bulwark of truth. (1 Tim 3: 15) Christ's Church is where the manifold wisdom of God is made known. (Eph 3: 10) *Christ PROMISED to lead it to ALL Truth.* (Jn 16: 13) Christ PROMISED that he would NEVER leave it. (Mt 28: 20) Christ PROMISED that the gates of hell would not prevail (it will not teach doctrinal error; Mt 16: 18)
This isn’t a question of whether men failed or not. The fact is that Jesus made promises to protect, build and guide. Jesus has not failed to keep His promises.
Here in the Philippines, we have this Iglesia Ni Cristo which was founded in year 1914 by some guy named Felix y Manalo. They preached that the Church in the 1st Century was apostasized.
The bible describes apostates - yes, but not a Church itself that went into a total apostasy. This makes Jesus out to be a horrible teacher ... and / or .. the disciples out to be horrible listeners and teachers themselves. The Church universally errored - and didn't know it.
It's not that they believe Ignatius or Polycarp are evil and tried to distort the teachings of the apostles, but that they believe ALL of the successors of the Apostles are evil - every single one of them. They can't point to a single one of the 2nd or 3rd generation of church leaders that taught the "correct" doctrines after the Apostles died. How likely is that??! What utter failures the Apostles were!
Makes Jesus out to be undependable ... and a liar. He didn't mean what he said and promised: Christ is the head of his Church (Col 1: 18) Christ''s Church is the pillar of truth (1 Tim 3: 15) Christ's Church is the bulwark of truth. (1 Tim 3: 15) Christ's Church is where the manifold wisdom of God is made known. (Eph 3: 10) *Christ PROMISED to lead it to ALL Truth.* (Jn 16: 13) Christ PROMISED that he would NEVER leave it. (Mt 28: 20) Christ PROMISED that the gates of hell would not prevail (it will not teach doctrinal error) ; (Mt 16: 18)
When the Roman Catholic Church started the practice of indulgences ( the act of paying the church money to cover for your sins) is a great example that they lost the authority or blessings from god and the world was in the state of apostasy. Jesus Christ paid the price for our sins and he only asks in return is to believe in him and proclaim his gospel.
@@simonfalk1337yes it does. The whole point of all Paul’s letters was to keep the church pure. So how long do you think they lasted without him and the other apostles? Indulgences are just one example of false teachings that Christ never taught.
@@scottm4975 So you are saying the Church at the time if Paul was in Apostasy? So the Church that Jesus Christ founded did not even last 25 years?! That reflects badly on Our Lord and the Apostles. Were they such failures the Church couldn't even last 25 years? Why do you wish to insult them in this way?
@scottm4975 I asked in my first reply to you if the abuses at Corinth prove the early Church was in Apostasy. You answered, "yes it does." If that's not what you mean, feel free to clarify. It would be good to define Apostasy too, I'm open to hearing what your definition is of it. It seems like you're not saying that in the time of Paul the church was in Apostasy. But you asked how long it would last after the Apostles had died. I reply, forever. Jesus promised to be with us until the "end of the age," and that the "gates of the netherworld" would not prevail. I would like an explanation of why Jesus was wrong on this point, since if you're not saying the Church was in Apostasy during Paul's time, it happened shortly after.
Good points. I always have LDS open their bibles to the table of contents. I then ask how is it that nearly 300 years into a Great Apostasy, nearly 75 years after Nicea, that the Catholic Church, led by mere men all of whom were Trinitarians, could have got their New Testament exactly right, 27 writings out of 300+ early Christian writings? Why trust them?? So too, why trust 16th c Catholic Trinitarian men in central Europe, led by a Priest named Luther, for their Old Testament canon being 39 writings?
That's not the point latter day saints should be making. The ones you're speaking to have yhr scriptures but likely don't understand them. There couldn't be total apostasy, otherwise the Christian church wouldn't exist today. What we're saying is the apostles all had the priesthood keys, everyone under them would have lost all keys and authority with their death's. ua-cam.com/video/ci3zUBroq3k/v-deo.html
With all due respect, I don't think that argument is very effective. No LDS member believes that the Old and New Testaments (nor the Canon stated by Luther) are completely correct--that's part of LDS doctrine.
@@bheer98 "No LDS member believes that the Old and New Testaments (nor the Canon stated by Luther) are completely correct" I haven't met one LDS that doubted that the biblical canon of the New Testament could be in error. Nor the Old Testament canon. The LDS describes the bible as God's Word ... inspired by him ... and if you want a bible, they will send you a King James Version. Which is interesting, as the Original King James Version of 1611 had ALL the books of the Catholic Old Testament in it, plus a listing of Catholic feast days. Who had the authority to remove them?
An off topic question: where are those two churches featured in the title slides? Is one of them the oldest Catholic church in Ohio, that being in Somerset? Thank you Jeremy for your testimony and your book. It's kind of funny though, this episode is the third mention of Jeremy that I have heard this week. Perhaps God wants this message out, front and center; he wants me to learn more and share great news.
I do not want to start a fight, I just want to clear something up, a great apostasy does NOT mean that the apostles failed, it means that the people around them failed to accept the Gospel
There obviously couldn't be a total apostasy. How else would there still be Christianity today. The reality is Paul said the foundation of the church is prophets and apostles with Jesus as the chief corner stone. The apostles all held the priesthood keys of the kingdom The apostles were all killed. What happens to a building with no foundation it crumbles and falls. So without the priesthood keys, all other priesthood groups under the apostles lost all keys and authority, so the priesthood was lost. That's what had to be restored. ua-cam.com/video/ci3zUBroq3k/v-deo.html
@@outof_obscurityhere was a continuation and that is why the position of Judas escariot was filled up. The Church is still fully around. The key is still held by Pope.
@@outof_obscurity that is a very ridiculous thing to say, and a mischaracterization of the Mormon position. The Mormon position is that there was an effective, total apostasy that somehow invalidated the authority of apostolic succession which the scriptures say was given to the bishops (Acts 1:20). All of the bishops at the time of the Church Fathers who knew the apostles said the priesthood was preserved through the episcopate (particularly Pope Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch). Furthermore, Joseph Smith believed God and His Apostles failed to hold the Church together. "I have more to boast of than ever any man had; I am the only man that ever has been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam; a large majority of the whole have stood by me: neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as me; the followers of Jesus ran away from him; the latter day saints never ran away from me yet." ~Joseph Smith, from a Sunday sermon on May 26, 1844, recorded by a reputed and faithful scribe, Thomas Bullock Here's the LDS Church's website. www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-f-1-1-may-1844-8-august-1844/64#:~:text=Come%20on%20ye,from%20me%20yet. It is an awful thing you're asking me to believe about God's character. I recommend you look at the original sources from the scriptures and Church Fathers which I've listed in this article. They provide a much more hopeful picture. windsofeden.wordpress.com/2023/02/09/come-follow-me-home-1-yearning-for-the-everlasting-covenant/#:~:text=What%20about%20the%20Great%20Apostasy%3F
@@outof_obscurity no the keys are still held by the magisterium to bind and loose doctrine. To teach infallibly ; Mormons don't teach from the chair of Saint Peter what one "prophet" says can be overthrown by the next "prophet" which really shows they have no binding authority.
@@DanielWard79 OK so how do you arrive at that conclusion? Linus was ordained Bishop at Peters hand then Peter was killed so the assumption is Linus was the next head of the church, even though John exiled on Patmos was the one who received the revelation of end times not Linus which is evidence Linus didn't have those key's of apostleship. They died with Peter and the other's. No evidence of John passing them on till 1830 with the resurrected Peter and John ordaining Joseph and Oliver as apostles. And what of the Protestant movement? This movement was because they recognized the apostasy of the Catholic church. So the only options are the church was either restored in 1830 by Jesus to Peter to Joseph who ordained new apostles, or the church hasn't been restored yet. Can't be Catholics or Protestants, so we have to look at the first vision of Joseph. Was that of God or of Satan? "Mormons don't teach from the chair of st Peter what one prophet says can be over thrown by another." OK what do you mean by that? How do you arrive at that conclusion?
exmormon here, now catholic. God is all powerful, all knowing. God don't make mistakes. why would the lord Jesus Christ who was God of the old testament, take on a human body, establish his church through his apostles who were men who Jesus loved and trusted, Even Judas, who were capable of schism , All powerful all knowing God, To have all that work taken away by man? Really? One of many reasons why I left Mormonism.
Even in the Mormon faith the Great Apostasy could not have happened. Supposedly, this so called apostasy happened after the Apostles died. However, the Apostle John, never died and is still among us like Three Nephite Disciples.
It wasn’t the apostles or prophets that failed, it's people that failed. Hence, with no prophets or apostles on the earth, the church was very much left in a state of apostasy. What the true non catholic, original, non literal cross bearing, Christians left behind did in fact, get carried over into the catholic church. Again, unfortunately, with no proper priesthood authority, apostasy was inevitable and Christians started manipulating and oppressing the people ironically as enemy pagans and romans were so doing. Henceforth, we get the roman and greco or orthodox catholic faiths split even between themselves. More divisions with protestantism followed. Personally, I absolutely refuse to believe in a church that does not have modern day prophets and apostles. On top of that, it's quite clear from any catholic or protestant faiths, a notion giving more than no thought of God's work in the western hemisphere. What you catholics and protestants are saying is not so much that God couldn't, but that he didn't do ANY work in the other side of the world. Not till 1,492 years till Christopher Columbus "discovered" a land already inhabited by millions of God's Kids? God's kids that neither the catholic, nor protestant faiths had a clue about for nearly 2000 years? On top of that, with ruins left behind by certain ancient inhabitants of the Americas, we can date back these ruins to thousands of years before Jesus Christ's birth too. So you catholics and protestants mean to tell me God did absolutely NOTHING with any of His ancient American kids for well over 5000 years besides make them and their lands?? If I were truly a loving and kind, most generous and gracious, fair God, and God IS all of that, I would bear my testimony of Heavenly works such as Jesus Christ to ALL of my kids on BOTH sides of the map throughout ALL of history. Anyone, including people in my church can know not just the Book of Mormon is true, but that God has way more to say than what's recorded in the books we call the holy bible. Evidence of the apostasy and more of the word of God is never found, it is earned. Anyone disagree can bring it on. This very LOUD and proud combat veteran has far more fight left in him than yall think. Just like the brave catholics and protestants, all Christians before me that stood up to obvious evil, blatant corruption amongst their own ranks, I aint backing down either. Haters, come and get it while it's hot 🫴
There can be an apostasy, as foretold in the Bible, without Christianity completely dying out. What was lost, that affected changes in doctrine more than anything was authority. We can clearly see the apostles frantically fighting against false beliefs in the Bible. When they were gone it was basically a free-for-all. The message of the Latter Day Saints is that it was not utterly destroyed. It is here.
Then you should follow the successor of Peter, the pope. The catholic church has apostolic succession, the authority was never lost, all the bishops that exist today can be traced back to the apostles. Why would Jesus build a church, gice authority to the apostles and then let that authority die with said apostles who had alredy been warned that they would be killed because of Jesus? Why would Jesus let thousands of people live without the true faith for centuries until some random Joseph Smith received a "new message and book" that conveniently spoke specifically to americans? Are you all blind? I prefer to stay were the Christ is present in the Eucharist
hrv4908 actually it does. The "time, times, and half a time" prophecy in Daniel relates to the period the church was in the wilderness. In 570 AD, Gregory the Great became the first proper Pope and ruler of the Holy Roman Empire, and the last vestiges of truth and authority, which had been hanging by a thread for some time, were finally severed. The Daniel prophecy equates to 1260 years. Adding 1260 years to 570 AD brings us to 1830. Any idea what happened in 1830?
Roman Catholicism follows a different creed, and a different bible, then protestants and especially those who follow the KJV Bible which comes from the Antioch manuscripts, not the ones from Egypt which is what the Roman Catholic church uses. Roman Catholicism does not believe that Christ's death at the cross as being all sufficient for our salvation, and thus adds works to their salvation. When the vast majority of people do not read and study the Bible, asking for the Holy Spirit to guide them in all truths and understanding, this is the end result, as we see many people who blindly follow what they are told by their priests, bishops, the Pope, and so on. Idolatry is not even listed in the Roman Catholic list of 10 commandments, and they break up the last commandment regarding coveting things in 2 parts to make up for it. Regarding Mormonism, well we have all manner of warnings from Jesus himself and the apostles regarding false Christs, false doctrines, and we know how to test a prophet in Deut which Joseph Smith Jr fails, along with being disqualified to preach and lead any congregation according to the New Testament. There is a massive amount of factual proof, most from the very LDS church archives, in which the LDS church hid information, facts, truths, for as long as they could on many important issue that proves they are a religious cult that will send many to hell, for they believe in a different Spirit, a different Christ, a different gospel, then what Biblical Christianity preaches. We have an LDS apostle Gordon B. Hinkley admitting it: carm.org/mormonism/hinckley-says-that-mormons-believe-in-a-different-jesus/
Good refute of a false Gospel. There isnt a shred of evidence of any of the "restored truths" of Joseph Smith which means they were never taught. If they were thered be more than the twisted interpretation of Bible scripture they use and certainly early church father writings would reflect some of these "restored" teachings. This is one of the best things to point out to LDSaints to help them wake up (with love). Joseph Smith didnt restore anything but brought a new, degenerated Gospel.
Just another invalid arguement the devil uses to attack Christ's Church. Most people did not accept Christ's divinity, or message. He organized His Church with the apostles and proper authority. Unfortunately they couldn't keep it going, many having been killed. The membership dwindled and the authority was lost. The teachings were still there, but without proper guidance, many man made beliefs took hold, and many man made churches came into existence. Satan knows that by mixing in a few truths with many falsehoods he can keep man from progressing. Hence the need for a restoration. All the authority and all of the teachings are necessary to guide those who want eternal life. God knew many would reject the gospel so He provided different levels of glory to accommodate the less faithful. You have the agency to believe what you want to believe, just don't try to persuade/disuade those of us who want the ultimate glory, from believing in and working toward it.
Please provide proof that membership dwindled. This is factually untrue and factually unsupported. I have a testimony that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. I testify that the Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ and I have a testimony that Francis is his vicar on Earth. Russel M. Nelson is deceived.
When I was a protestant believer I never read the early Apostolic Church Fathers for myself, but when I did I was stocked with what I read. To be truthful it was scary, but soothing @ the same time.
But one of the reasons I started to read the early apostolic church fathers, was bc I realized that the Apostles did not fail to teach other faithful men after them, & pass down traditions= as 2 thess 2:15 states.
Plus we see it all over the Holy Bible, that the Apostles were teaching other men, so i wanted to kno who were these other men after the Apostles died..
I realize that if the apostles failed, that means Jesus Christ failed, bc he did not train his Apostles well enough to train, & teach other men. then I realize if Jesus failed that means the Holy Spirit failed to, bc he did not keep the church whole as one= as John 16:12-13 states.
So I went to the early church history, & basically that's all she wrote, and now I'm on my way home to Rome crossing the Tiber praise the Lord...
God bless u all🙏🏼💯🇻🇦
"I realize that if the apostles failed, that means Jesus Christ failed,"
Exactly right. Jesus made several PROMISES. He's dependable enough and powerful enough to keep them:
Christ is the head of his Church (Col 1: 18)
Christ''s Church is the pillar of truth (1 Tim 3: 15)
Christ's Church is the bulwark of truth. (1 Tim 3: 15)
Christ's Church is where the manifold wisdom of God is made known. (Eph 3: 10)
*Christ PROMISED to lead it to ALL Truth.* (Jn 16: 13)
Christ PROMISED that he would NEVER leave it. (Mt 28: 20)
Christ PROMISED that the gates of hell would not prevail (it will not teach doctrinal error; Mt 16: 18)
@@TruthHasSpoken Amen which as a protestant I struggled with but eventually came to the truth in the Holy Catholic Apostolic church...
Satan is whispering in YOUR EAR!
@@TruthHasSpoken LIES!
@@bettiegiles3677 Did u really read my comment in detail my friend?
Thank you very much for writing this. There was never any apostasy.
ua-cam.com/video/ci3zUBroq3k/v-deo.html
This isn’t a question of whether men failed or not. The fact is that Jesus made promises to protect, build and guide. Jesus has not failed to keep His promises.
Here in the Philippines, we have this Iglesia Ni Cristo which was founded in year 1914 by some guy named Felix y Manalo. They preached that the Church in the 1st Century was apostasized.
The bible describes apostates - yes, but not a Church itself that went into a total apostasy. This makes Jesus out to be a horrible teacher ... and / or .. the disciples out to be horrible listeners and teachers themselves. The Church universally errored - and didn't know it.
Very well stated.
It's not that they believe Ignatius or Polycarp are evil and tried to distort the teachings of the apostles, but that they believe ALL of the successors of the Apostles are evil - every single one of them. They can't point to a single one of the 2nd or 3rd generation of church leaders that taught the "correct" doctrines after the Apostles died. How likely is that??! What utter failures the Apostles were!
Makes Jesus out to be undependable ... and a liar. He didn't mean what he said and promised:
Christ is the head of his Church (Col 1: 18)
Christ''s Church is the pillar of truth (1 Tim 3: 15)
Christ's Church is the bulwark of truth. (1 Tim 3: 15)
Christ's Church is where the manifold wisdom of God is made known. (Eph 3: 10)
*Christ PROMISED to lead it to ALL Truth.* (Jn 16: 13)
Christ PROMISED that he would NEVER leave it. (Mt 28: 20)
Christ PROMISED that the gates of hell would not prevail (it will not teach doctrinal error) ; (Mt 16: 18)
No. As a Mormon, just no.
@@germanmarine6582 OK. Maybe you don't think of them as evil, but they were all wrong and the Apostles were still failures!
@@robkratz-hahn7404 wait I’m confused. You think the apostles were failures and that the people after the apostles were wrong?
When the Roman Catholic Church started the practice of indulgences ( the act of paying the church money to cover for your sins) is a great example that they lost the authority or blessings from god and the world was in the state of apostasy. Jesus Christ paid the price for our sins and he only asks in return is to believe in him and proclaim his gospel.
Why is this proof of the Apostasy? Does the abuses in the Corinthian Church as we see in Paul's letters prove the early church was in Apostasy?
@@simonfalk1337yes it does. The whole point of all Paul’s letters was to keep the church pure. So how long do you think they lasted without him and the other apostles? Indulgences are just one example of false teachings that Christ never taught.
@@scottm4975 So you are saying the Church at the time if Paul was in Apostasy? So the Church that Jesus Christ founded did not even last 25 years?! That reflects badly on Our Lord and the Apostles. Were they such failures the Church couldn't even last 25 years? Why do you wish to insult them in this way?
@@simonfalk1337 nope that’s not what I’m saying. Try reading it from a more understanding view point.
@scottm4975 I asked in my first reply to you if the abuses at Corinth prove the early Church was in Apostasy. You answered, "yes it does." If that's not what you mean, feel free to clarify. It would be good to define Apostasy too, I'm open to hearing what your definition is of it.
It seems like you're not saying that in the time of Paul the church was in Apostasy. But you asked how long it would last after the Apostles had died. I reply, forever. Jesus promised to be with us until the "end of the age," and that the "gates of the netherworld" would not prevail. I would like an explanation of why Jesus was wrong on this point, since if you're not saying the Church was in Apostasy during Paul's time, it happened shortly after.
Thank you.
God Bless you greatly.
That's a very straightforward way of sorting things out.
Good points. I always have LDS open their bibles to the table of contents. I then ask how is it that nearly 300 years into a Great Apostasy, nearly 75 years after Nicea, that the Catholic Church, led by mere men all of whom were Trinitarians, could have got their New Testament exactly right, 27 writings out of 300+ early Christian writings? Why trust them?? So too, why trust 16th c Catholic Trinitarian men in central Europe, led by a Priest named Luther, for their Old Testament canon being 39 writings?
that's a great point about the canon.
That's not the point latter day saints should be making. The ones you're speaking to have yhr scriptures but likely don't understand them.
There couldn't be total apostasy, otherwise the Christian church wouldn't exist today.
What we're saying is the apostles all had the priesthood keys, everyone under them would have lost all keys and authority with their death's.
ua-cam.com/video/ci3zUBroq3k/v-deo.html
With all due respect, I don't think that argument is very effective. No LDS member believes that the Old and New Testaments (nor the Canon stated by Luther) are completely correct--that's part of LDS doctrine.
So LDS members don't believe in LDS doctrine?
@@bheer98 "No LDS member believes that the Old and New Testaments (nor the Canon stated by Luther) are completely correct"
I haven't met one LDS that doubted that the biblical canon of the New Testament could be in error. Nor the Old Testament canon. The LDS describes the bible as God's Word ... inspired by him ... and if you want a bible, they will send you a King James Version.
Which is interesting, as the Original King James Version of 1611 had ALL the books of the Catholic Old Testament in it, plus a listing of Catholic feast days.
Who had the authority to remove them?
An off topic question: where are those two churches featured in the title slides?
Is one of them the oldest Catholic church in Ohio, that being in Somerset?
Thank you Jeremy for your testimony and your book. It's kind of funny though, this episode is the third mention of Jeremy that I have heard this week. Perhaps God wants this message out, front and center; he wants me to learn more and share great news.
I do not want to start a fight, I just want to clear something up, a great apostasy does NOT mean that the apostles failed, it means that the people around them failed to accept the Gospel
Thank you for writing this. There was never any Total Apostasy which was cooked up by a modern prophet Mohammed
There obviously couldn't be a total apostasy. How else would there still be Christianity today. The reality is Paul said the foundation of the church is prophets and apostles with Jesus as the chief corner stone. The apostles all held the priesthood keys of the kingdom The apostles were all killed. What happens to a building with no foundation it crumbles and falls. So without the priesthood keys, all other priesthood groups under the apostles lost all keys and authority, so the priesthood was lost. That's what had to be restored.
ua-cam.com/video/ci3zUBroq3k/v-deo.html
@@outof_obscurityhere was a continuation and that is why the position of Judas escariot was filled up. The Church is still fully around. The key is still held by Pope.
@@outof_obscurity that is a very ridiculous thing to say, and a mischaracterization of the Mormon position. The Mormon position is that there was an effective, total apostasy that somehow invalidated the authority of apostolic succession which the scriptures say was given to the bishops (Acts 1:20). All of the bishops at the time of the Church Fathers who knew the apostles said the priesthood was preserved through the episcopate (particularly Pope Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch).
Furthermore, Joseph Smith believed God and His Apostles failed to hold the Church together. "I have more to boast of than ever any man had; I am the only man that ever has been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam; a large majority of the whole have stood by me: neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as me; the followers of Jesus ran away from him; the latter day saints never ran away from me yet."
~Joseph Smith, from a Sunday sermon on May 26, 1844, recorded by a reputed and faithful scribe, Thomas Bullock
Here's the LDS Church's website.
www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-f-1-1-may-1844-8-august-1844/64#:~:text=Come%20on%20ye,from%20me%20yet.
It is an awful thing you're asking me to believe about God's character. I recommend you look at the original sources from the scriptures and Church Fathers which I've listed in this article. They provide a much more hopeful picture. windsofeden.wordpress.com/2023/02/09/come-follow-me-home-1-yearning-for-the-everlasting-covenant/#:~:text=What%20about%20the%20Great%20Apostasy%3F
@@outof_obscurity no the keys are still held by the magisterium to bind and loose doctrine. To teach infallibly ; Mormons don't teach from the chair of Saint Peter what one "prophet" says can be overthrown by the next "prophet" which really shows they have no binding authority.
@@DanielWard79 OK so how do you arrive at that conclusion? Linus was ordained Bishop at Peters hand then Peter was killed so the assumption is Linus was the next head of the church, even though John exiled on Patmos was the one who received the revelation of end times not Linus which is evidence Linus didn't have those key's of apostleship. They died with Peter and the other's. No evidence of John passing them on till 1830 with the resurrected Peter and John ordaining Joseph and Oliver as apostles. And what of the Protestant movement? This movement was because they recognized the apostasy of the Catholic church. So the only options are the church was either restored in 1830 by Jesus to Peter to Joseph who ordained new apostles, or the church hasn't been restored yet. Can't be Catholics or Protestants, so we have to look at the first vision of Joseph. Was that of God or of Satan?
"Mormons don't teach from the chair of st Peter what one prophet says can be over thrown by another." OK what do you mean by that? How do you arrive at that conclusion?
Can't wait to see the full interview 🥰
exmormon here, now catholic. God is all powerful, all knowing. God don't make mistakes. why would the lord Jesus Christ who was God of the old testament, take on a human body, establish his church through his apostles who were men who Jesus loved and trusted, Even Judas, who were capable of schism , All powerful all knowing God, To have all that work taken away by man? Really? One of many reasons why I left Mormonism.
Even in the Mormon faith the Great Apostasy could not have happened. Supposedly, this so called apostasy happened after the Apostles died. However, the Apostle John, never died and is still among us like Three Nephite Disciples.
It wasn’t the apostles or prophets that failed, it's people that failed. Hence, with no prophets or apostles on the earth, the church was very much left in a state of apostasy. What the true non catholic, original, non literal cross bearing, Christians left behind did in fact, get carried over into the catholic church. Again, unfortunately, with no proper priesthood authority, apostasy was inevitable and Christians started manipulating and oppressing the people ironically as enemy pagans and romans were so doing. Henceforth, we get the roman and greco or orthodox catholic faiths split even between themselves. More divisions with protestantism followed. Personally, I absolutely refuse to believe in a church that does not have modern day prophets and apostles. On top of that, it's quite clear from any catholic or protestant faiths, a notion giving more than no thought of God's work in the western hemisphere. What you catholics and protestants are saying is not so much that God couldn't, but that he didn't do ANY work in the other side of the world. Not till 1,492 years till Christopher Columbus "discovered" a land already inhabited by millions of God's Kids? God's kids that neither the catholic, nor protestant faiths had a clue about for nearly 2000 years? On top of that, with ruins left behind by certain ancient inhabitants of the Americas, we can date back these ruins to thousands of years before Jesus Christ's birth too. So you catholics and protestants mean to tell me God did absolutely NOTHING with any of His ancient American kids for well over 5000 years besides make them and their lands?? If I were truly a loving and kind, most generous and gracious, fair God, and God IS all of that, I would bear my testimony of Heavenly works such as Jesus Christ to ALL of my kids on BOTH sides of the map throughout ALL of history. Anyone, including people in my church can know not just the Book of Mormon is true, but that God has way more to say than what's recorded in the books we call the holy bible. Evidence of the apostasy and more of the word of God is never found, it is earned. Anyone disagree can bring it on. This very LOUD and proud combat veteran has far more fight left in him than yall think. Just like the brave catholics and protestants, all Christians before me that stood up to obvious evil, blatant corruption amongst their own ranks, I aint backing down either. Haters, come and get it while it's hot 🫴
Amen brother!!! Well said!!!
I'm with you too. The few, the faithful, the Latter Day Saints.
There can be an apostasy, as foretold in the Bible, without Christianity completely dying out. What was lost, that affected changes in doctrine more than anything was authority. We can clearly see the apostles frantically fighting against false beliefs in the Bible. When they were gone it was basically a free-for-all. The message of the Latter Day Saints is that it was not utterly destroyed. It is here.
Yup 👏🏻
But the LDS is Apostate
Then you should follow the successor of Peter, the pope. The catholic church has apostolic succession, the authority was never lost, all the bishops that exist today can be traced back to the apostles. Why would Jesus build a church, gice authority to the apostles and then let that authority die with said apostles who had alredy been warned that they would be killed because of Jesus? Why would Jesus let thousands of people live without the true faith for centuries until some random Joseph Smith received a "new message and book" that conveniently spoke specifically to americans? Are you all blind? I prefer to stay were the Christ is present in the Eucharist
@@Rafa-wv4db ua-cam.com/video/DW7jqmx7Jg0/v-deo.html
Unlike the common belief amongst Mormons, the apostasy was quite gradual, and was completed in 570AD.
Thanks for agreeing that there was an apostasy. It doesn't matter how long it took.
hrv4908 actually it does. The "time, times, and half a time" prophecy in Daniel relates to the period the church was in the wilderness. In 570 AD, Gregory the Great became the first proper Pope and ruler of the Holy Roman Empire, and the last vestiges of truth and authority, which had been hanging by a thread for some time, were finally severed. The Daniel prophecy equates to 1260 years. Adding 1260 years to 570 AD brings us to 1830. Any idea what happened in 1830?
@@alantomlinson5740 The Church of Jesus Christ was restored.
The One, Holy Catholic Church.
A man made church.
It isn't holy, it is evil.
It takes a village not just a man.
Roman Catholicism follows a different creed, and a different bible, then protestants and especially those who follow the KJV Bible which comes from the Antioch manuscripts, not the ones from Egypt which is what the Roman Catholic church uses.
Roman Catholicism does not believe that Christ's death at the cross as being all sufficient for our salvation, and thus adds works to their salvation. When the vast majority of people do not read and study the Bible, asking for the Holy Spirit to guide them in all truths and understanding, this is the end result, as we see many people who blindly follow what they are told by their priests, bishops, the Pope, and so on.
Idolatry is not even listed in the Roman Catholic list of 10 commandments, and they break up the last commandment regarding coveting things in 2 parts to make up for it.
Regarding Mormonism, well we have all manner of warnings from Jesus himself and the apostles regarding false Christs, false doctrines, and we know how to test a prophet in Deut which Joseph Smith Jr fails, along with being disqualified to preach and lead any congregation according to the New Testament.
There is a massive amount of factual proof, most from the very LDS church archives, in which the LDS church hid information, facts, truths, for as long as they could on many important issue that proves they are a religious cult that will send many to hell, for they believe in a different Spirit, a different Christ, a different gospel, then what Biblical Christianity preaches.
We have an LDS apostle Gordon B. Hinkley admitting it:
carm.org/mormonism/hinckley-says-that-mormons-believe-in-a-different-jesus/
Can a catholic point me to mary worship, idolatrous rosary beads etc in scripture?
I don't think Catholics mary worship.
@@RichardHolmes-ll8ii Mary is the catholic god
@@TheRastacabbageno she’s not
@@TheRastacabbageas much as you worship Luther
@@top10bags93 not protestant. I follow scripture. I'm a saint. I worship the godhead
The Apostles failed at being
Mormons
The people failed at being saints.
Good refute of a false Gospel. There isnt a shred of evidence of any of the "restored truths" of Joseph Smith which means they were never taught. If they were thered be more than the twisted interpretation of Bible scripture they use and certainly early church father writings would reflect some of these "restored" teachings.
This is one of the best things to point out to LDSaints to help them wake up (with love). Joseph Smith didnt restore anything but brought a new, degenerated Gospel.
The Apostles DID NOT FAIL, THE CATHOLICS AND THE PRIESTS DID!
No. The Catholic Church is the one true Church, the bride of Christ, and it will never fail, as our Lord promised us (Matthew 16:18-19)
Just another invalid arguement the devil uses to attack Christ's Church.
Most people did not accept Christ's divinity, or message. He organized His Church with the apostles and proper authority. Unfortunately they couldn't keep it going, many having been killed. The membership dwindled and the authority was lost. The teachings were still there, but without proper guidance, many man made beliefs took hold, and many man made churches came into existence. Satan knows that by mixing in a few truths with many falsehoods he can keep man from progressing. Hence the need for a restoration. All the authority and all of the teachings are necessary to guide those who want eternal life. God knew many would reject the gospel so He provided different levels of glory to accommodate the less faithful. You have the agency to believe what you want to believe, just don't try to persuade/disuade those of us who want the ultimate glory, from believing in and working toward it.
Please provide proof that membership dwindled. This is factually untrue and factually unsupported. I have a testimony that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. I testify that the Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ and I have a testimony that Francis is his vicar on Earth. Russel M. Nelson is deceived.
Two truths and a lie.
@@Susieq26754 and your lie?
😂