Do Christians Harm LGBTQ+ People? | Progressive VS Conservative Christian (Part 3)
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- A progressive Christian and a conservative Christian conclude their conversation on God, the Bible, and human sexuality. Can they overcome the stigma and speak to one another with understanding?
Conversationalists include:
@colbymartin: / colbymartin
@profstrachan: / profstrachan
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"I can't yoke together my christianity with any sin pattern, anything the Scripture calls evil"
A standing ovation for Prof. Owen Strachan. To have such meekness, patience, and a humble way of speaking the truth was amazing. I had no idea that he was working hard to maintain that until the end
maintaining the sale of his absurd books - that's the truth
@Cameron G Your so confused. I'd bet my life's savings.. which isn't much & desperately needed as a recently widowed momma of a toddler with rent that has increased thanks to Democrat rule & this God Forsaken economy we are suffering from Democrat rule.. I'd bet my life's savings that I could prove wrong, with facts.. everything you believe in 10 mins time about Our society.
@@camerong5513 it appears that logical and rational thought are no match for your feelings I guess...
@@paulcummings287 sure paul
@@camerong5513 solid comeback there sir.
I love that this was a civil conversation and you were both very respectful toward each other. I also love, Owen, that you gave Biblical truth in everything you said, even the difficult parts that he didn’t want to hear, and you shared gospel with him. ❤️ Wow. 👏🏼 This was amazing.
Biblical Truth is an oxymoron.
bull 💩
@@camerong5513 So I take it you aren't Christian? If you were you would know how to treat others. Just another phoney.
@@franco634 (stupid) questions asked and answered. ha, sorry i bruised ya fragile ego
@@franco634 you mean by oppressing those who are different, talking to them and acting like I'm better than them, and telling them that they are evil people who should be treated like subhuman scum that shouldn't have rights and will/should burn in hell?
the conservative talks scripture, the progressive talks feelings
Our heart and feelings are the most deceptive things. This is why need the solid guide of the Holy Scripture to lead us.
Except for when he said God doesn’t love everyone. He lost me on that one.
@@dhowa862 he explained it though
@@cockroachv Amen
That's how you know my friends, thats how you know 🥴
“I said you can’t be right, that doesn’t mean you are wrong.” Absurdity of post modernism
To me, it appeared quite wise actually. The interpretation of the bible has changed a lot, throughout every century of the past 2 milenniums. Why would us Christians have it exactly right today?
@@mk14ist On what exactly? Give an example of what you are referring too? Just wondering
@@mk14ist I hope you’re not trying to argue for individual relativism.
@@rob2250 celibacy for priests wasn't in Christianity for over a millennium, slavery was commonly considered to be accepted by the Bible for over 1500 years, women having the same legal rights as men was considered wrong based on the at the time biblical morality.
All these have changed (for the better I hope you and I agree). To me changing the stance on LGBT issues is the next step to becoming the right church of the loving, just God
@@rob2250 I'm not familiar with the term haha, I got some reading to do
It broke my heart when he said “if it’s not grace for all, it’s not grace at all.” To me, that all or none logic is like saying “if you can’t buy food and shelter for every person who is homeless, why buy food or shelter for any?”
The dumb thing about his statement is that it is grace for all if you accept it and repent of your sins.
Michelle Bell.There IS Grace for All.John 3:16.It up to each individual to accept it.On God terms and no our own. That's what Lordship is about.Beard guy is a False Prophet period.
It's more like "if you choose to only help some homeless people, you don't truly care about homeless people".
^^^
Totally agree with the responses. Grace is an offer of forgiveness, not forcible mind control. It _is_ grace for all and part of that grace is the respect of the person's choice to reject it.
Do you mean to say God can't give grace to all ? I thought God according to Christianity was omnipotent...?
Where does Colby get that EVERYONE is a part of God’s family?? Unless you are born again and covered under the blood of Jesus Christ? You will NEVER be a part of God’s family! 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
It's crazy tbh. This just shows that not every Christian is born again
Universalism is part of Progressive Christianity teaching.
Are we not All born in God's image though?
@@quintavioussimmons754 yeah the bible says MAN is made in God’s image but the bible clearly shows we are not all children of God, man went astray and did it’s own thing.
Read John 1:12
@@quintavioussimmons754 do you know what it means to be born again?
It took me 15 plus years to understand what it means...I had to go through trials and Tribulations
I applaud the fact that this was a civil conversation. We need more such conversations in our society.
you would never be fired from any non religious job for being progressive
R u implying that a conservative would?
@@Maced_with_Nightmares Duh.
@@MrStuDubb as if😂nobody cares as long and they’re not a dipsheet being disrespectful to people with their personal opinions.
he was fired from a church position
Wow right out of the gate Colby is minimizing Owen's experience. It s funny how he minimizes feelings but is such a fan of them in most of the bulk of the conversation.
So glad to finally see part 3!
The debate should’ve ended when Colby said Bible is unreliable.
Forreal
Matthew 19:4-6 - “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” (Jesus, quoting Genesis 2 , found also Mark 10 and later in quoted Ephesians 5).
Since Colby seems very interested in giving the words of Jesus greater weight than the rest of Scripture - up to and including completely negating other New Testament passages - I would love to hear how he reconciles Christ’s clear endorsement of a gender binary and monogamous, heterosexual sex (and, by implication, condemnation of any other sort of sexual relations) as a cornerstone of any marital relationship with his stance on homosexuality. Would Colby seriously have us believe that homosexual sex reflects the one-flesh paradigm laid out by our Lord and savior? Or will he just sidestep/ignore this inconvenient passage like he does all others that contradict what he **wants** to be true about God.
18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper who is just right for him.” 19 So the Lord God formed from the ground all the wild animals and all the birds of the sky. He brought them to the man[c] to see what he would call them, and the man chose a name for each one. 20 He gave names to all the livestock, all the birds of the sky, and all the wild animals. But still there was no helper just right for him.
21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep. While the man slept, the Lord God took out one of the man’s ribs[d] and closed up the opening. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib, and he brought her to the man.
He did not create Eve with Adam - and he brought all the wild animals to Adam.. to be a helper... BUT STILL THERE WAS NO HELPER>>>>>
or King James if you prefer :
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
so many translations of Adam needing a helper... and God bringing forth all he had created... and none could be found.... so God created..... Why do so many Christians pick and chose... especially those that support discrimination... and hurt on others... instead for Love??
@@Jasminestealth1 I’m a bit confused. How does any of what you just quoted contradict my post above? If anything, it reinforces it. 🤷♂️
@@hondawilky I think all of this is interesting topic..
I will say this... "if God brought together".. why would that not be true of Same Sex relationships? Do you believe that the Devil can create "love"?
Do you believe that in relationships all sexual acts (even with in the confins of marriage are Good in Gods eyes? Or just the missionary position) ... Fun fact the Clitoris is the only organ with a sole purpose of pleasure.....
The point to my post was to say... that Gods creation according to direct inturpritation ... says that God made something that... first was lonely (aka he created something imperfect as it needed something else) also that he brought forth all that he had already created to fill that void and it did not (guess he didnt know it would not work?) and it did not work....
this is to say... The Word, (the bible) in all of its various translation is to do one thing... to get us closer to him... and even in the thousands of years, its proven itself of God - as it in all of its variations and contradictions serves its purpose.. our walk with God... No where NO WHERE in the bible does it say... take scripture to use to condemn others.. plenty examples of splinter in anothers eye - Plank in yours - Cast the first stone - ...
I believe Colby is using to the best of his walk - to Show love - to highlight Gods love - he is not keeping the bible from people - each of us has a responsibility to search out God...
ps the word says
“The Lord has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts-
so that their eyes cannot see,
and their hearts cannot understand,
and they cannot turn to me
and have me heal them.”.... Does Owen understand??
@@hondawilky her response had me trippin for a second. She literally walked right into reiterating your point with actual Scripture 😂
@@hondawilky she's been commenting on other comments things that don't make any sense. She doesn't make a clear point just wants to cause confusion i guess 🤷
Slippery slope.
If you’re confused, or mentally and emotionally disturbed you shouldn’t be working with children.
Love the sinner, hate the sin.
I used to be “gay”, God led me out of that lifestyle and healed my mind and soul. I knew He loved me, but our relationship could only go so far because I was living a life of sin and contradiction of His Word and He couldn’t use me until I figured out it was wrong and repented.
Romans 14 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
I am Glad that in your walk - in your convictions - you are Good with God.... that does not mean your way - is everyone's way....
Praise God, I'm so thankful God led you out of that lifestyle and pray He does for many many others. I'm sure God will use you greatly in that area to help others! I pray He will strengthen you, give you wisdom ,guidance and bless you mightily. 🙏💕
I feel like the Bible says hate the sinner. Have you read what the Bible says? Depends on the sin and lesbianism is vaguely mentioned once so that's not a big deal but several other sins make it pretty clear you are hated. Except beating slaves, that's okay in the Bible.
Yes I have read the Bible, and I keep reading the Bible. People hate. God loves and forgives a repentant person. I know God loves me and that’s enough@@willjapheth23789
@@nanetteyvonne1222201 That's great that you can feel loved. though I worry why you don't care about why you worship a God who's prophets massacre women and children according to the Bible, and you likely believe all unbelievers will be tortured in hell. like Jews believe in the same God and they are all damned to most Christians. The list goes on. The loving God stuff is bs. at least progressive Christians tend to acknowledge these issues in the Bible.
Why even have a conversation between a Christian and agnostic about christianity in the 1st place???? To the guy with the beard. My mother and brother in law were kicked out of their homes in their teens for becoming Christian.
Sadly this is a big movement right now and many people are leaving their churches and following teachers like this. It’s been cropping up in popular ‘Christian’ literature and podcasts for a while now.
I have a friend who I didn’t really know when she was in a main line church, who has gone deep into this thought - and there’s no reasoning with her from the scriptures (or logic really because she’s embraced a very relativistic view of reality) because everything is up to her interpretation of what God would be like if He fit her idea of a loving God.
If you read the comments you’ll see the people who want to defend this and are actively spreading it trying to ‘enlighten’. There is a point where it’s no longer helpful to dialogue and becomes casting pearls, but some people do eventually see the futility of placing themselves where God should be.
It always comes down to one thing with the progressive camp. They don’t believe in the inerrancy of scripture. It’s amazing. If you don’t think scripture is God breathed and the basis for truth you can make it say or translate it anyway you want to fit your lifestyle
Owen has incredible levels of patience... I would’ve lost it on this dude and his snarky attitude
“Behold, the Lord’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or his ear dull, that it cannot hear; but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.”
Isaiah 59:1-2
Never really understood the term “progressive Christian” as what is to progress? Hebrews 13:8 says it all x x
Because most "Christians" think the lord saying he loves all is just referring to the minority of people who identify as Christian.
Seems like that perfect God wasn't perfect enough to save all of his Children
@@tjbiging6498 God is perfect. It's the fact that we are not perfect, far from it. There is no sin that God can accept. If we still live in sin, God cannot accept us. If we are not born again, from Christ's perfect sacrifice on the cross, there is no distinction from you and your sinful life. Through being born again from Jesus you would separate you from sin. Staying in that sinful lifestyle is keeping yourself with that sin, therefore although God loves his creation, he has to do true justice. God loves everyone, it's just that he doesn't agree with everyone's actions, if you can't separate sin from who you are, hell is what we deserve. We are a fallen creation.
@@talitameyer2581 I know, my perspectives are newly founded because I learned to let go of all my doubts and insecurities. I believe and accept the word of Christ and his teachings but the problem is, we as people tend to draw our own line as to how far the lord can extend his arm and reach out to save us. Did you know when Jesus roamed the Earth, he was referred to as Yeshua by the Hebrews, so should we not proclaim that Yeshua is the true light and not Jesus? No because its the same thing just from a different stand point. Do you think that out Almighty God in Heaven would righteously strike down the people of North Korea who were told ALL of there lives that the Bible is American propaganda? I think most people assume saying his name and telling yourself you believe in this book with major contradictions within itself and the observed sciences of the world is in a way enough, but at the same time not, because this perspective allows you to hold onto fear and doubts, but understand the words of God speak louder than the book written by man and the voice of all the people telling you to believe in something this way or else you will be damned for eternity. I believe the Holy Spirit resided in all life, even those who were told the bible wasn't true, they have that moral compass guiding them to what they truly believe is better for everyone.
@@tjbiging6498 In regards to the people in North Korea from your example, God judges people based on what they have. If you never had the Torah like the Jews, He'll judge based on your conscience. If you were a Jew who had Torah, He judged based off of that. Once Yeshua entered the world to fulfill what was written in the Torah, and was crucified, buried, ressurected and ascended, He gave us access to the fullness of what was promised to mankind from the beginning. He will judge us according to that. To whom much is given, much is required... If we have access and opportunity to repent and follow Him, we should humble ourselves and take it. Furthermore, after the ascension of Christ, He sent the Holy Spirit who will live inside of us if we ask. From that point forward, we are able to submit to Him, and He will live out His holiness through us. This is how we can leave behind sin for good and truly be free. But it is a choice between pride and humility. God resists the prideful and gives grace to the humble 💕
This is FASCINATING. The difference between these theologies seems to be whether Christ is actually Lord or not. If Christ is Lord, and we know Him to be based upon the very Word, then we must be firm with the truth. As a formerly active member of the LGBTQ community, if believers in Christ, and even the Spirit of God himself, had not reminded me of his Lordship then I would have continued to walk in darkness. A cruciform life is folly to the world. So sad to hear the argumentation of Colby. :(
The debate was over at 26:55.
Wasn’t a debate, Travis! Was supposed to be an exercise in listening and understanding. I suspect we may have missed the point.
@@KarynThurston you might have. Truth is objective, and either they are both absolutely wrong or one was wrong, but they disagreed and cannot both be right.
At this time stamp, Colby admits his ultimate belief about the Bible. He admits having no Christian foundation.
@@judgedredd31I agree that truth is objective. And the truth, as far as I understand it, is that the premise of this conversation was listening and attempting to understand a new perspective, not to defeat an opponent. But who knows? I’m often wrong, so sure, maybe I missed it!
A very helpful discussion and while I agree with Owen, it was helpful to hear the other side and how to respectfully disagree 👍
Sandcastle Christian: I think if you play the tape back, what you'll hear me say is that "there's no way that you're right," which is different than saying you're wrong.
No. No it's not.
That was a personal attack. Progressive micro aggressions ?
I couldn’t believe he said that. I rewinded it 10 times to make sure I heard him correctly. I really need him to elaborate on that concept.
The progressive guys theology is just so out of biblical truth..... he looks at God as an atheist and says “if God is real, He would (should) be like this.., and if he is not then He isn’t good and if he isn’t good then he isnt God”......
Instead of starting with God, he starts with himself and humanity.... instead of glorifying the creator, he rather rest in the glory of of creation....
This man makes so much truth claims yet has no foundation in truth (God is truth).... Owen truly showed patience and grace with this man....
He talks so much of “where is your love, your compassion”.... he so blinded to the truth of God and His word and gets caught up in the beginning thought of what owen says and just goes blank when he enters into his counter argument ??? He just kept avoiding Owens points by trying to be like “oh I didn’t even pay attention to your argument because I was just heartbroken”
Really???? That’s just ridiculous
So you think the man Owen is a better man for lying about his nature so he let's say he's a gay man lying about who he is cuz he thinks that God has commanded him to rebuke his own nature which he perceives as gay and so you say that the man on the right for telling the truth and walking the truth and embracing all the other people that say that this is the truth you could dim him which one is it so you want the man on the left to continue to lie about his true nature and preach a different Bible or the one on the right to tell the truth and to be burned at the stake for what he believes which is reality on the ground there is a third Way open your books and your mind. And when all else fails think critically and use it reason. ❤️
Children are committing suicide over theology that's when the book should stop and be opened up and critically talked about you don't just go with it you must discern the spirits plural. 🙏
@@kimsteinke713 so is the Bible the word of God, your final authority or not ?
As I strengthen my walk with Christ, I hope to become as knowledgeable and loving as Mr. Owen Strachan :,)
If you don’t already, you should listen to his podcast “The City of God podcast”. He’s so smart and he really cares about making sure people know the truth so they can be saved.
He changed the name of the Podcast to “The Antithesis”.
seek help now
"Ton of the Bible is confusing, contradictory, unreliable." 26:54 Then why even Trust Jesus? Isn't He the Word?
Great point! Lord willing, Colby will one day come to see the necessity and heavenly wisdom of relying on the Holy Scriptures above all other authorities.
Our righteousness is like a dirty rag..... EVERYBODY!
Yes. In Christ ALONE my hope is found 🙌🏼
This Bible and the name of Jesus is reliable enough for him to start a Church and ask people for their money, yet he doesn’t believes it’s truth is sufficient enough to lean on? If you don’t believe this book is full truth, what are you trying to do Colby?
Amen! Owen stood for the gospel so amazingly and has truly inspired me to grow in my faith and to be able to defend my faith. Like Paul does to Peter, we are called to point to Christ and know the scripture for it is all the word of God and the truth. Not fitting God into our own view of humanity and having knowledge of our own understanding but how we can point humanity toward the word of God by the wisdom and discernment it gives us.
Owen is spot on in all his points 🙏
To comment with the conservative Christian, I would say in his example, instead of the murderer who claims to be a child of God, he should use any example of a Christian acting contrary to God's word. For example, a Christian who lies or continues to lie can be more in line with his thinking of a homosexual Christian.
"A loving God will not force someone into His presence for all of eternity. This is why He allows us to go to hell if we choose." -Frank Turek.
Colby truly believes that God in His all-loving nature will force ppl into His presence forever??
He said they're not incompatible at all. What about physically? They are not, at all. Boy oh boy, here we go with "LOVE" one another.
It’s interesting to see how the conservative Christian is slowly and patiently trying to teach the progressive Christian how to think things all the way through instead of picking and choosing what he feels like is true
This progressive guy is speaking from a post modern relativism perspective; that's not Biblical Christianity.
God invites you into his house and says you can go into any room you want except this room. You then invite your friends over and tell them it is ok to go into that room because you feel God will understand. Then you feel obligated to destroy everything in the house. Start making excuses why it's okay to do opposite of what God Said
I really pray for Colby, as a pastor, God will hold him to a higher degree of responsibility, so I hope for his sake that his views are right.
I know he was just trying to be cordial. You could tell he was holding back. But I kinda was hoping for the moment he loving told this progressive that he was an apostate and needed to repent. It’s scary to me because this guy followed his feelings and became a false teacher leading people to eternal separation from God. The Bible says that the punishment for teachers will be worse. So sad.
The progressive Christian repeatedly oversimplifies what it means to be a Christian and then falls short of answering the deeper questions because it seems like he realises deep down to acknowledge the point made is to reveal the weakness of his position.
Thabks to this channel I found Prof Strachan! A great man of God. Bold to speak the Truth!!
Great convo the orthodox man is far more convincing great Job representing Yahweh
There’s no way you’re right = you’re wrong. Lmao
I wonder what this pastor teaches at church if he doesn’t even believe that the first man and women were Adam and Eve
I also wondered this. So I went to his church Facebook page and watched a “service.” It was horrible. The whole thing centered around LGBTQ. There was no talk of repentance, no spiritual substance, just really bad. One segment which I believe was called “Children’s Corner” featured a guy reading a children’s book written by the actress Kristen Bell. Nothing about Jesus, no stories of Jesus.
@@jedi_417 oh wow damn…. That’s actually really sad
you fail to see the point. Colby is not dogmatic like you... In any case he aptly quoted Jesus (and the new testament) and applied Jesus' words - I can't really understand what you're so apparently concerned by
Short answer:
Some do, or rather, many do without noticing it or being blinded to their actions.
"there's no way that you're right is significantly different than saying you're wrong"
huh? can that statement even be logically true?
I know right? It’s logically incoherent since by definition someone who can’t be right is wrong.
I guess it makes sense because Owen was saying he was making himself the authority so him saying "you can't be right" instead of "you're wrong" takes away the authoritative tone to it. I think that's what he was getting at.
@@EsiriE woah... I'm amazed... someone on here finally, actually got the point! Thank you!
I totally realize how confusing I was in that moment, and that I didn't explain what I was getting at very well.
But yes, to say "you're wrong" is to be standing in a place of Authority where I know the right answer, and you don't have it.
What I was saying, instead, is that there is no way that he (or I) have the exact right answers figured out for all this stuff!
Which is a different point altogether... trying to get Owen to see that the likelihood of him having all the right answers when 2000years of church history has created myriad different understandings, is absurd.
Anyway, @Esiri, I'm relieved that someone here got the point. Thanks for sharing!
My friends of over 15 years have ostracized me don't talk to me anymore because I'm an actual Christian and understand biblical marriage, meaning understanding serial sin. I will hands down say it's from my perspective so much easier to be "progressive" today. It doesn't take courage to be "woke". It takes courage to best honest and stand true.
Yeah, I wouldn't wanna be friends with you either.
Your friends dodged a bullet.
It's so concerning and heartbreaking to know that the vast majority of comments in this list support and defend that "God only loves some." Saying that God doesn't love people is the MOST anti-christian statement someone can say.
When pastor Owen said that God only loves "some," he finally took his Christian's mask off his face. He finally showed who he truly is and what he truly believes. Sadly, he's not different from those pharisees and scribes who crucified Jesus!! However, I still believe pastor Owen is saved, he is still loved by our Lord, and I pray that he may find the true love that Jesus taught us.
God bless pastor Colby for his amazing and Christ-like approach to this debate.
Read Romans 9:15
John 17:9
Of course God loves everyone. And we are also called to love everyone, it is the second most important commandment.
We must even love our enemies Matthew 5:44 and pray for them @Ruben Thompson, even if Jesus did once pray specifically for his flock in John 17:9 as you referred.
@Isaac I'm not sure though why Owen said this, I was also surprised, shocked even. Maybe he meant God doesn't love the sin that people do??
Anyhow, we are called to love everyone and we can do that thanks to God. Love u all ❤
Majority of the posts here have fallen so far short of discussion in the spirit of unity and love that Jesus called for, and instead show clearly the apparent lack of the gospel working in us deeply to care for one another. As the progressive mentioned, it is heattbreaking.
Colby is right
What a brilliant defense by Owen as he stayed true to the Scriptures. And praise God, he shared the true gospel for the finale 💥
Extremely cringe worthy responses from someone who should know the word. Half of this video is hard to watch and is puzzling
The point about the Corinthian church for such where some of you-- he is absolutely right -- there is a way the world wants gay people to be and the church should be there calling them to marriage and so on but this is where the church lets down gay people because they are so hung up on the gay piece that they are more invested in keeping gay relationships living in shadows and ap[art form God because that advances their ideology.
Owen won....also like the knock off stranger things theme at the beginning
I'm not a very good homosexual, so whenever I see my homosexual friend making dinner, driving her children to band practice, putting gas in her car, etc., I always take care to observe and take notes so that when I'm practicing the homosexual lifestyle I can continually improve, getting better and better until I'm absolutely fabulous.
Why are you spying on your friend? That's kinda weird lol
i hate how the guy on the left said things like ''child who thinks they're trans'', or ''practicing a homosexual lifestyle.'' its disgusting how he thinks people being themselves is a sin.
The C Christians focus on after life and they knew the life we live here on earth is just a blink of times that is what preparing for Eternity. But P Christians focus on only this life and whinning like kids who don't want to get up to preparing for school. They were like Why God you let that happened to me? Just like a kid who complaining his dad who preparing him to become the greatest athlete.
31:05 - TRUTH
How does Owen have the Bible all figured out? Well - he likely does not. the Bible is a huge huge huge piece - and we have gotten it wrong in dangerous ways for thousands of years. Good job placing Owen in a historical context that makes obvious how none of us have it all figured out!! That is the core ingredient of humility - and very very important!!
Colby says what if being made in God's image is all that matters. That would mean Jesus did not need to die and his sacrifice did not matter. That would mean no matter what we do we all go to heaven. What!!!! Colby claims to follow Jesus but does not think His sacrifice matters. So stupid. Go read the Bible again Colby you clearly have not before.
“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”
John 3:18
Jesus does want you to believe!
My whole thing is a lot of people in the comments are saying the progressive Christian isn’t a Christian because he said that or thinks this. You can’t tell someone the way they interpret the Bible is wrong because, if that was the case there wouldn’t be so many different denominations of Christianity there would only be the one. But, this is because every chooses the interpretation that they think is correct. You interpret the Bible and the scriptures the way you think is best and works for you. It’s all a matter of opinion. It’s an opinion you believe as fact but, no one truly knows.
Colby is WAY OUTSIDE Christian orthodoxy. Besides, he doesn't just have different interpretations on scripture, he flatly denies and rebukes the words of God in scripture.
No he doesn't hear Owen. Owen speaks truth!
I enjoy a vibrant relationship with God. I do not need any human being's or any religion's permission or approval.
My heart breaks for the progressive. He needs prayer. He seems really lost.
It very much appears that Colby has never been born again, but quite obvious that Owen has cause he continually refers to the Word of God as our authority. I pray these discussions will bring Colby to search for Light in God's Word and to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ who died for all our sins and gave to us His righteousness in return! Simple as ABC....ACCEPT that we're a sinner in need of a Savior because we can't save ourselves. BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus that paid our sin debt on the cross and rose again . CONFESS with our mouth, believe in our heart and He says we shall be saved! I pray this for Colby! 🙏💕
29 minutes...💯💯💯
Being Christian is about denying flesh desire. Not only homosexual, there were many thing that would not inheritence in heaven. 1 Cor 6:9. Drunk, abuser, all kind of unhealthy sexual activities etc.. If you have sex relationship before married or multiple sex with other than your spouse after marrige also same thing with gay sex.
His fundamental problem starts at 27:00. He says the Bible is not reliable and filled with condtradictions. This man does does not believe in the God of the Bible and he makes that very clear. All feelings, emotions, and his own interpretation of who God is. How can you know who God is if you don't believe in the Word of God as infallible? Be careful of the wolf in sheep's clothing friends.
Yes, this is the root cause of Colby's confusion/rebellion. He does not believe the Bible is inerrant reliable. When he speaks of contradictions, you can tell that even with all the "training" he claims to have had, he still doesn't understand the Bible. When those "contradictions" are taken into context, they actually reveal God's nature and cease to be contradictions.
@@th6252 Agree 100%! Owen has a very humble spirit about him, and I think Colby is kind as well, but Colby speaks from himself, not from the Word of God. It is clear from the debate who truly understands the Gosple. The message of the Gosple clearly flows from Owen's heart and I think he did a near perfect job!
He isn't wrong about that, there are quite a few things that are documented in the Bible that don't line up with our understanding of the world today.
@@queerpanentheism6920 Like what?
@@spencerrichardson539
Two examples being:
-Plants being created before the sun, (when the sun is required to complete the photosynthetic process).
-Epilepsy is believed to be a demonic disease, when we all know that this isn't the case.
Sadly the reality of being God's child stops at the point of repeated rebellion against the spirit when you say evil is good. God is not mocked
Gay rights!!!🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
Is Owen a Calvinist?
Yes. When you hear terms relative to “wretched,” it’s a dead giveaway. Calvinism
Is not biblical, but it’s eons more biblical than what Colby is preaching.
@@4thr634 I agree. Calvinists are our brothers and sisters that I believe are taking some verses out of context, but what Colby is preaching says he does not know if Jesus really rose from the dead is way off Christianity. What made my light bulb come on about Owen was when he said Jesus came to save "some" and his meaning behind the term love and hate on God loving and hating others. I heard him say wretched but I guess I did not think too much on that since my mind went to..I guess you can use that term in place of sinner like in the song Amazing Grace.
Yes he is. Read romans 8-9, Ephesians 1, and John 6. Very explicit.
@@4thr634 while I don’t think any of us knows for sure, I disagree that Calvinism is unBiblical. There is so much scripture that talks about predestination, God choosing us, God hardening the hearts those He wants. If God opens the invitation for everyone and hardens some hearts but not others, is that not God choosing who he wants in His family? I’m not arguing that Calvinism is 100% correct, but I think it’s ignorant to say that Calvinism is not biblical when there are intelligent scholars on both ends of the debate
@@idkhippo the theology is flawed and dated. Calvinism cannot be true because it is antithetical to the mission of Jesus Christ and the gospel. The path to heaven is narrow, but the path is wide to hell. We have the choice to choose Him or not. If ALL are not capable of being saved, then the exclusivist mindset of being one of the few chosen to inherit salvation is a farce (as next to Jehovah’s Witness). All will be saved who call upon the name of the Lord. Free-will theology is the only consistent framework that can prove a loving God who is also a mighty and swift judge. Calvinism paints God as a capricious dictator who chose you or didn’t. Christianity isn’t a divine lottery.
Eye rolling this beard dude but praying best for u
I love the discussion
I read the comments, which were as I expected they would be. I appreciate this conversation and the fact that they both were able to speak their convictions without a crazy angry blow out. We need to be able to talk with each other in this manner, because love is patient and kind. As our comments should also be, if we're to be 'known by our love'. I'm of the conviction that all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness so that we may be complete, fully equipped for every good work. I am also of the conviction that we know God through His Word, which is the Bible. I also agree there's so much we don't understand, and yes Christian religious people have been wrong in the past. I'll just say, we need to remember that it's the Holy Spirit's work to convict anyone, and convince them of God's righteousness, and of the coming judgement. Not our work. Jesus is the Judge. We're not the judge. Can a person simultaneously be Christian and gay? Yes, I believe so. I think where we've been wrong is using scripture to point out everyone's sin first before loving them with legit agape love. Nobody ever came to repentance through condemnation and fear. In fact I ran and hid for 14 years because of condemnation and fear coming from religious people telling me what I need to do, trying to 'get my life together' so I could get close to God but it was His kindness that melted my heart and brought me to HIM, which resulted in HIM helping me get my life together. He demonstrateS His own love for us in that WHILE WE WERE STILL SINNERS Christ died for us. WHILE👏🏻 WE👏🏻 WERE👏🏻 STILLLLLLLL👏🏻 SINNERS!! So. Mayyyyyyybe we ought to put agape love out there first and pray for those we think are wrong that they would want THE Truth for themselves and that they'd search it out in the Bible for themselves. And thank the Holy Spirit that he is working in us to will and to do for his good purpose, and that he's the one-the Helper-who guides us into all truth. Cuz here's the thing about DECEPTION, ladies and gents: when you're deceived you're DECEIVED, meaning you don't know you're deceived. Pray for discernment, pray to know when to speak up and when to SHUT UP because literally people's eternity is on the line. I dunno if you've noticed yet but you can't change another person's will, I've tried. I've been the same religious person trying to guilt my family into 'getting their life together' according to what scripture says but that never swayed them, it actually pushed them further away and hardened their hearts. It was ****ONLY**** after I started seriously praying and surrendering my "control" over them to God that their hearts softened to the Truth after I stopped trying to convict them, convince them. The Holy Spirit worked in them, as he so beautifully and gently does. Cuz i was deceived, I obviously thought I could control the situation. 🙄🙄
I'm thankful that people are willing to talk about hard things in reasonable ways, even when disagreeing. I really do think there's more to be said about walking in LOVE that I tend to think both these guys are missing for different reasons. I'm just so thankful they were brave enough to publicly have this conversation! ♥️♥️♥️ good stuff.
I think we all ought to pray for Colby and the progressive Christianity movement as a whole. That they’d realize the truth of Jesus and turn from wrong teaching!
The progressive is correct. We are saved by Gods Grace not by any actions of our own. Owen is blinded by Conservative ignorance of who Jesus is his soul is Jaded ✝️🌈
Notice the conservative based his arguments on scripture and words of apostles and the "progressive" didnt once, he only used moral arguments 😂 that says alot. He knows the scripture doesn't agree with him.
26:54 he even said that the bible is "confusing and contradicting".. these are the clear fruits of the devil.
Wait I'm confused which one was democrat which one was republican?
While this was a very inciteful discussion, I fully believe Pastor Cory was way off base purely because he never really used scripture to back his claims whereas Owen backed his views up with the Bible. The Bible does warn us to not trust our feelings (Proverbs 28:26) and to go purely based off of those feelings and who WE think God is puts people like Pastor Cory in a dangerous situation.
I liked how Pastor Corys' face lit up in shock when Owen pointed out that there are people whom Jesus will not save. This is affirmed in Revelations where there are the Nicolaitans whom is hated by God (Revelations 2:6) as well as the fact that Jesus himself said he came to divide mother from daughter, father from son, etc. (Luke 12:52-53). It is perfectly clear that God does love all of his children as represented in John 3:16, but this does not mean he will save everyone because it is left up to us to decide on if we believe in Jesus.
It is my opinion that Pastor Cory may need to quit using his feelings as a guide to the scripture and just listen and pray and be with God cause as it stands, Pastor Cory is dangerously close to practically saying you can live as you like and still be saved by God. Pastor Cory did not say that, but he is dangerously close.
@Eightball Wizard curious, where are you under the impression one believes God is not so evil and the other believes God is evil?
"If you love me, you will obey my commands" John 14:15
Look at what all those freaks are peddling out of their fake lordy lord mouths it’s so funny !
The commands: "love thy neighbor as thyself and love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and mind"
@@cadenphilley9728 In the eyes of Jesus these two were exactly the same. Amen brother.
Paul took this from Jesus.
It is all summed up by Romans 13 8-10
LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW
"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
This tells us everything we need to know.
@@cadenphilley9728 Absolutely correct Caden. Jesus said they are equal. These folks don't seem to get that. I particularly love what Jesus and Paul both said.
It is all summed up by Romans 13 8-10
LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW
"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
This dude literally just said “belief is not required to be a follower of Jesus” ☠️
Wow...that's truly scary. He's leading a congregation of people to a very dark pit.
I mean it doesn't have to be. There are religious people who are atheists.
@@mason4966 ??? What the heck you talking about
@@mason4966 They are not Christians
Colby says the bible is unreliable, contradictory, confusing and the only way to know God is Jesus. I wonder how he knows about Jesus apart from the bible?
The historicity of Jesus go read the scriptures and everything we've got from the ancient scribes the Canon especially arianism Judaism the to knock the talmud you have to read everything and then read read and then you realize it's we're only men creating what we interpret are God heavenly father to be and it wasn't always even that way history is always changing if you don't understand history in the context you're not going to understand the Bible or its meaning or it's possible literary Worth or either it's myth or poems think think once twice three times four times think think don't just follow one style of teaching investigate as if it's gold
@@kimsteinke713 Kim, it is not a sin to write using punctuation.
@@rdrift1879 Bruh... 🤣. That got me good!
I was in a bad mood but this helped a lot.
GOD bless you for making me laugh
Probably through prayer. Like how Jesus knew His Father.
@@caIvinfun well being God helped too probably
If being gods image was enough we wouldn’t need Christ.
Huh?
We are made in his image as in our faces,hair, facial features, etc... is all a product of his mind that he used when making us. Since he created us he thought and thinks of what we should look like which means we are made in his image
@@El_Pimpin_Shizz oh no I know and understand what it means when it says we are mad in Gods image but him saying we wouldn’t need Christ is like saying children don’t need parents
@@jaredfleming9967 oh ight thought u meant somethin different
@@El_Pimpin_Shizz oh nahhh I am a Christian myself
"to me...... to me....... to me...... i feel like......" See the problem here?
Yep. WHAT DOES GOD SAY
well said
Only a sith deals in absolutes.
@@Mikeawave your use of an absolute statement must mean you are, indeed, a sith.
Yes! Amen!
“it’s not God as I want him to be. its God who He is” wow POWERFUL. that says it all
@Richard Fox the fact that you see issues in the world and automatically associate them with God shows you don't understand who God is
@Richard Fox Your questions assume that God sees the world the way you do. Your superimposing your view of justice on His. The bible says we are the clay and He is the Potter, and who are we to question His ways. In that context, your concerns don't even make sense, because the created can't see the world the way that the Creator does.
"'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the Lord. 'As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Isaiah 55:8-9
So true. That was a very powerful insight.
So much talk about hell. But I find that concept completely preposterous.
@Richard Fox you’re so deep
lol
You never hear true conservative Christians debate these topics. Wow, Owen brother God Bless You for not being afraid of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
James White, Jeff Durbin, Dr. Michael Brown, Douglas Wilson, John MacAurthur, John Piper.. and so on and so on.. need I list more? Hah
and God bless Colby for speaking truth to lies.
@@franco634 you got that backwards brother. He speaking lies to truth. And ironically making truth claims while rejecting any standard of truth.
@@daltonadger6489 Brother you have that backward. In fact Colby knows far better what the truth is. Jesus did not preach hate against at least ten percent of the population. That came from bible fabrications. Jesus taught love. Get with it .....brother.
@@daltonadger6489 How do you distinguish between truth and non truths in scripture? Just curious. Or do you just conveniently believe those glaring contradictions?
“Jesus never said believe in me.” -Colby
“Unless you believe that I am He you will die in your sins” (John 8:24)
much like passages from the Bible, you are quoting this man out of context in order to prove your own feelings true
What this means is that radical love and self-sacrifice, of which Jesus is the archetypal example, is the path to bringing about the Kingdom of God.
Yeah but anyone can write that anywhere it's not really an impressive statement.
@@confusedpretzels It wasn't out of context at all. That's precisely what Colby said.
Owen displays the patience and self-control of the Holy Spirit. It's good to be humble in the face of someone without understanding of the truth, because the only reason we ourselves know the truth is because of the grace of God. A big takeaway is what Owen said about believing the wholee picture of Jesus in the bible, as very often ppl pick out only love and compassion and refuse to acknowledge his condemning of what is wrong.
Do you mean Owen? Owen is the shorter guy. Colby is the taller guy
@@eldotjay ahh oops! Yes lol, thanks for correcting me🤭!
That is an extremely awesome point.
If we reject God’s grace and mercy we receive His wrath. Well said sister. I believe Owen did this gracefully as well.
It's amazing that one of the most beautiful exchanges we see in scripture between Jesus and the woman caught in adultery include a rebuke and a restoration in one phrase: "Go and sin no more."
Modern Christianity appears to have rejected the entire command of Jesus.
Also Colby, I think it’s worth pointing out that *not every human is a child of God.* We are all created in his image, but we _only have the power to become Children of God_ if we receive Christ, believe in his name and follow his commandments John 1:12
Hence the reason we have to be born again!
Amen! It bothers me sometimes when people parrot that point.
Owen threw me off guard with that comment then I thought about it and saw your bible verse then realised he was indeed speaking facts
@@EsiriE glad I could be of use sis. It’ sounds harsh but there is a difference between being God’s creation and being God’s child.
Also Colby, I know you read the comments and I do enjoy engaging with you so hope you come across this.
You make a point that “if it isn’t _grace for all, then that is not grace at all.”_
What I think we need to remember is God’s grace is made available to _all._ But no one can be _forced_ to accept God’s grace. That isn’t loving to *force someone against their will to accept your love.* In our culture that would be seen almost like sexual harassment!
God really does love all humanity, but he would never *force himself* on us against our will. That would be the most _unloving_ thing to do. Ironically that’s what it seems you’re advocating for.
Yeah...I dont think the progressive one is christian. He thinks he is but hes not. If he disagrees with majority of the bible, I think he needs to reevaluate what his ideology is.
💯💯💯 he can say he's "Christian" because lowkey everyone is nowadays but he's definitely not born again. That's evident. At this point progressives should just write their own bible. 🤷🏾♀️
@@EsiriE well, they are actually planning on doing just that, lol!
@@AnniEast 😳😳😳🤦🏾♀️
@@EsiriE they have, they're called the message and passion translations.
@@Kattchatt 🤣🤣 nah those don't condone LGBTQ
“There is no way you are right doesn’t mean you are wrong...” 🤣
did i just hear him say the Bible is “insufficient and unreliable” omg
And yet to him it is reliable in the parts he wants it to be reliable. This is playing God. It breaks my heart. I pray Colby's heart will be softened to Truth and his eyes will be opened.
And he has a congregation 🤔
@@ontology1239 God also gave us the bible so we could avoid and be able to recognise the fake teaching of man made vanity ideologies such as what Colby is trying to peddle. And as you believe why if we can’t trust that God can’t use and speak through and maintain truth through people, why should we listen to Colby or for that matter even you 🤔
@@ontology1239 the Bible isn’t unreliable. And there are many books written outside of the Bible that are just as important. Translation can always be tricky. So if one were to look at the original Greek context and translate it, they could. The Bible is written by people that God specifically chose to do so. God wouldn’t have allowed it to exist and be passed through the years as such if it didn’t have truth.
@@ontology1239 I would not be the only person to believe the Biblical stories to be actual truth of circumstances that took place and that belief doesn’t make me “not the best person” and the Bible doesn’t promote slavery. The term in Hebrew “ebed” translates as someone who is dependent on another for work. Such is a servant. Such is anyone who has to work and is a “slave” to money. And as far as homosexuality goes, saying that a man shall not lay with a man and a woman with a woman doesn’t mean it has homophobic context.
What a low view of the Holy God!
What a low view of Scripture!
What a low view of the severity of sin and the separation it causes!
Preach 💯👏🏾
I would argue that exact same thing. That conservative guy has got to up his game!! What a Pharisee.
@@EsiriE Being gay is no more of a sin than being black or having blond hair and blue eyes. It is simply who a person is. All those haters out there should redirect their hatred and ignorance.
@@duncescotus2342 He certainly does. Right now he is sitting there looking all pissed off after being left with egg on his face.
@@franco634 Well, as sympathetic as I am to your point of view, brother Franco, I have to translate all things to Christianese, providing Chapter and verse, organized "hermeneutical" arguments, and just about all known knowledge available to convince these Calvinists!
Now I have not done that here, but trust me I can.
Now trust me, don't dare me, anyone.
I'm busy right now!
Colby is a Pastor?! That’s scary...
Colby is no more a pastor than he is a unicorn 😎
We need to pray for him. I'm not being facetious. He is really lost, (and is leading others astray, unfortunately) and we need to pray that he can find his way back to the true Jesus and true gospel.
@@captivaparadise yes, but also Remember by his own admissions, he doesn’t want to know the true living God, Colby only wants a god of his own making and in his own image, he is an anti christ.
He even asks where the Bible says things that are very basic.
There was a place where he assumes that the Genesis account is not a good analogy of God's plan and then turns around and says we need to look to Jesus to know God.
But Jesus references that very analogy in Genesis to teach about marriage.
Ya just need to look like a hipster and all good
At 30:28 is Owen's mic drop moment to Colby...at the end of the day, Colby has set himself up as his own god and standard of truth. It doesn't matter what the truth actually is, for Colby his own presuppositions and emotions lead his definition of truth.
Exactly this. I’ve watched the other videos between Owen and Colby as well as the discussion Colby had with Sean McDowell and you can see one of his biggest problems is he doesn’t believe in the inerrancy, infallibility and sufficiency of Scripture as is with most other progressives.
Once you lose that authority, you become your own authority and god.
Amen
That in 24:22. The arrogance of Colby is astounding.
Yes. This was the essence of the argument by the “flimflam “ man. You can never know the truth but let ME help you get there. These kinds of people have ruined my daughters clear understanding of God and especially the man, Jesus Christ.
@@th6252 lol you guys have this so wrong
So grateful for my brother Owen. He is such an encouragement. SDG!
Amen!
Silly Dogmatic Generalities, such are the Solas. All of them false. I can prove it from scripture if you want. I'm tired now. but I can do it, trust me
@@duncescotus2342 “trust me” nah bruh we’re good. We have the Holy Spirit. Try it.
@@TheSacredlizzy Hi sister Elizabeth, I've heard of that. Holy Spirit...Holy Spirit.....drawing a blank right now, I'm tired again. Pray for me, please.
@@duncescotus2342 ok 👍🏼
I am literally in shock at this. Does this man even read the Bible? He is all about his feelings instead of what the scriptures actually say.
Reading the Bible is a great way to see how detached from reality alot of conservative Christian thinking can be. And also knowing the people conservative Christians tend to hate helps too.
It makes me sad that he is a leader of a church😳
@@willjapheth23789 Could you please offer some examples on this? I am genuinely curious on what conservative Christians would be detached from.
@@jeanj753 literally believing the 6000 year old earth and the flood. And how their God is loving while excusing mass killing and slavery and executions for stupid things like picking up sticks. Somethings about hell I don't recall. It depends on the conservative. Some take a random verse and just run with it. Or read way too much into a verse, or change or ignore its context to fit their theology. Blah blah. The loving God that seems to like killing in the old testament and damning in the new testament is the main one that irks me.
It varies alot, but I've heard some people say whacky stuff and they seem to be kinda common.
It just broke my heart at 26:56 . John 1:1. I don't know how this Pastor can say these things. GOD is not unreliable
Wow, Colby did not see what Owen just did there... When it comes to Owen there's layers, traditions and cultures from keeping him from being the right view. But when it comes to Colby, there is absolutely no layers, traditions, and culture that keeps him from being the moral authority... and he just said "Oh Absolutely".... Wow scary...
I’m so glad someone else caught that too. Colby completely missed that particular nuance in the conversation, and it revealed a deeper look into his worldview.
what is even more scary is, how I am hearing Colby is that, him not having any layers etc could suggest there being no substance to him, to which Colby himself even said something along the lines of yea I change that stuff all the time and leave stuff behind. Thus, by Colby's admission, he who is of no substance holds the ultimate moral authority... wild
Love how Owen is used by God. May God continue to use him
25:22 "If it is not grace for all, it is not grace at all." Does he understand what grace is? When you start demanding grace it is no longer grace.
Grace is made available to _all._ But no one can be _forced_ to accept God’s grace. That isn’t loving to *force someone against their will to accept your love.* In our culture that would be seen as sexual harassment. That’s the distinction Colby is failing to realise.
Right!
That's brilliant, brother Simon. Is that like when Oliver Twist asked for more?
The "progressive" dude doesnt serve the same God as Christian's who adhere to biblical teachings and Gods sovereignty
@some dude...I agree with you.