@@CyprusHot , You are definitely not a Bible Student. Christianity begun 50 days after the death of Jesus Christ. The Disciples traveled to Jerusalem and meet in the Upper Room of a man's house and 120 (all) of them were filled with the Holy Ghost. So you are wrong, the followers of Yahweh in the Old Testament kept the Mosiac Law, followers in the New Testament keep the Commandments of Christ! Jesus declared, "I and my Father are one!"
NtheNow Never write “student” with a capital S. Incorrect grammar. Christianity flows from Christ, when the God-Man became visible. If you are referring to the one true church then that was when the Holy Spirit empowered the Apostles after Jesus’ resurrection. Your comments about the OT and NT law are for what purpose? Don’t try to write more to make your response seem more educated. I suggest you read my comment again and slowly. Before the Bible was canonised as it is today, Christianity existed. I’m clearly referring to the NT. Everyone knows the OT existed before Jesus was incarnated. I suggest you respond better next time.
I was in the gay life for 16 years. It is destructive and it is NOT of God. God loves the gay person (and He pursued and saved me), but when Jesus shows up, you leave your nets and you follow Him. And He calls us to deny ourselves and follow. Jesus is enough....but following Him is costly and never easy....but in this world He is the only thing that will heal, restore and satisfy.
Thanks for sharing this Cory! Was this position of the homosexual lifestyle something you felt the Holy Spirit personally convicted you of through God's word and seeking His will? I'm curious because I found the story in the this video interesting about the lady who was a lesbian and told by a pastor it was okay, but surrendered it to Jesus because she believed His word said it wasn't pleasing to God. I'm starting to have the mindset that (at least for a strait male like myself) it's best to focus on other things when sharing the love of Christ with a gay person. And if they ask if they have to give up that lifestyle, encourage them to seek God's will by reading his word carefully and opening they life completely to Him and let them know I'll be praying for them find out what brings glory to God. Do you thinks this is a loving and effective approach? If there's anything you'd like to inform me on about how to approach gay people with the love of Christ I'd love to learn, thanks again Cory.
joshua church my experience that night in my bedroom when the love of Jesus transformed my life, the thought of continuing in my gay life was not even a consideration. My experience was similar to in a way to the disciples dropping their nets and following immediately or Paul being immediately a different man. Years later i has struggles, but for 2-3 years, it was literally a non-issue. HOWEVER, my experience is NOT most folks experience. The best we can share with a gay person is a message of love and that while we love them, we do not feel the gay life is going give them what they need. Jesus is enough.
Adolf Hitler's Missing Testicle being attracted to the same sex is not being “gay”. I have been out of the gay life for basically about 16 years. I struggle at times with some things in my mind, but at this point....the things I used to do in the gay life sexually are now repulsive to me and I have no interest in going back there. Jesus is enough. The gay life does not satisfy in my experience. Thx.
@10:53 Steve Chalke tries to clarify a point, and then he states "my gospel..." and then explains his point. Whether he intended to say that or not doesn't matter. It sure says a lot about his view. It's his gospel.
It reminded me of what the word says “even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!” Galatians 1:8
The issue is SIN and why we need the Gospel and a Saviour! It does not matter what sexual relations you have, it is sinful, unless it is performed inside of the marriage covenant which was created, by God, for man, with a woman. No sin is more or less than any other. Everyone, born again, in the Body of Christ has to turn from their sin(s) and "go and sin no more" (John 8:11). Quoted from Steve Chalke "These people [LGBTQ+] came along, they love Jesus, they want to live for Jesus...these people aren't god-hating, they're not lying and cheating, they not that list from Romans chapter 1. These are people who love God and ... coming to church... though they've been abused yet they cling to this faith in God and this love of Jesus and so I accepted them into the [my] church." Judge for yourself according to Romans 1:18-32 ...wrath of God ...against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men...are clearly seen...so that they are without excuse ...when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man...Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator...for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet...Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
@@Richfreerunner2 God made the Bible easy to understand IF you come to Him with a humble heart BUT with pride we twist the truth and our self-proclaimed intellectualism make everything complicated because we don't want to give up our sin. I am not judging anyone, I did terrible sins in my life and I remember before I was born again, when my family tried to witness to me and share the Gospel, I knew what they were saying was true however I was not ready to give up everything for God and I simply said to them "I'm not ready to give it up, I don't want to." I was just honest with them, I was honest with myself and honest with God. We don't need to bend the truth. If we want to remain and live in sin then just admit it for what it is, knowing that the consequences mean there will be a risk that you will pay the price of eternal damnation and not to mention all the pain and heartache that comes while we continue to live in sin.
I wouldn’t be so certain that the Bible itself even “speaks for God” it’s a book that’s no doubt been retranslated and rewritten over the course of two thousand years, the bible we see today probably looks nothing like the original one in the time Jesus was alive. Things have no doubt been added or removed long after the death of Christ.
Let me offer a real answer, based on the historical context and the way that relates to modern Christians (I make no comment on the theology here): A helpful fact to start with, because it's sometimes difficult to get a good perspective on things as they change, is that we know of no one in the entirety of recorded human history (including via burial traditions, etc.) who was married to a member of the opposite sex until 2001, in the Netherlands. In fact, marriage _definitionally_ referred to the union of a man and a woman. (Even in polygamy the marriages have never been considered to be the union of one man and four women, but four unions between a man and a woman. From a historical definitional perspective, that's the only significance of polygamy in this context.) The Corinthians who received Paul's letter would not have understood what you meant if you said a man could not marry a man. It would've been a tautology. As an example: It would be like if people in the future decided a species of ape was a "person" like a human being, and someone in that future reads some historical documents and asks, "Well, if they didn't mean to include apes in this, why didn't they say anything about apes?" The answer, obviously, is because people living today wouldn't be aware that the word "person" might _ever_ be thought to be referring to an ape, because an ape falls outside the definition of "person." I’m talking specifically about marriage and not the words “dating” or “relationship” for a very similar reason. The concepts of “dating” or “being in a relationship” are new and still not present in many cultures, including some in the West. There wouldn’t have been a way to describe a non-platonic couple other than to say they were betrothed (to be married) or were married. (I'm saying "non-platonic" for modern clarity, but the reality was that outside of the familial context, relationships between adults of the opposite sex were marriages and relationships between adults of the same sex were friendships. A newly married, opposite-sex pair in that time may very well have still had a platonic, non-romantic relationship.) The reason Christians see the words "dating" and "relationship" as correlated to the prohibition of sex is going to be rooted in the idea that sex takes place only in marriage.* The historical context means only opposite-sex couples constitute a marriage, and "dating" is something we've started to do as a step _toward_ marriage. Therefore, same-sex couples cannot date, because it's not possible for them to ultimately marry each other. * The reason for the Bible to say both that sex takes place only in marriage and also that homosexual sex is prohibited is not to be redundant, but because (as mentioned above) it would be possible for someone back then to hear "no sex outside marriage" and not consider that the prohibition applied to what they did with someone of the same sex, since what a man was in relation to another man had nothing to do with marriage. (Additionally, because the type of sex had between a man and woman is different than that in same-sex relationships, it would've been plausible to miscategorize it as a separate kind of action, if it hadn't been specifically mentioned.)
I think what you’re discovering is the goalpost shifting and post hoc rationalization of those who claim Paul wasn’t REALLY prohibiting homosexual intercourse
I find the most awkward thing about these videos is Steve Chalk doesn’t listen but is constantly waiting to talk. Therefore, he will never change his opinion on anything because he’s not prepared to hear what others have to say. Andrew is respectful and listens to his opponent. He may also be waiting to speak but his body languages whilst a little defensive is also showing that he is prepared to listen.
It also seems like Steve has been bogged down with pastoring and wants to be loved. He started making God in his own image years ago. We can all question and wrestle with hard issues but what we don’t do is make God in our image through our experiences, that is idolatry and is really the worst thing you can do.
To be fair at the end it was only Andrew Wilson talking for minutes non stop and he refused to take a breath or allow Steve to reenter the conversation. He simply kept talking and if Andrew tried to interject immediately said "wait - no" and talked over him. Part of debate Etiquette is making a point then allowing the other person to respond. At the end he just makes 5 or 6 different points in succession over about a 2-3 minute period while refusing to allow the other person to speak.
@@serendipitousbliss6548 Probably because Andrew grew tired of Steve's nonsense. Once you see that Steve won't believe/understand what the text actually says he might as well do his best to get the truth out there and drown out the lies.
Steve Chalke has read the Bible "so deeply" he can make it mean whatever he wants. While Unbelievable? has a respected history of bringing Christians and sceptics together, constantly bringing on those claiming to be Christians but preaching a false gospel is not to be commended. Many are being led astray by Mr Chalke and his left wing worldly views. His only objective seems to be to shoehorn the Bible into his sexual idolatry.
Philip Thompson well said Philip! I watch Unbelievable and appreciate giving so called ‘Christians’ a chance to view their perspectives on Scripture but continually having Steve Chalke with his heretical teachings, dodgy theology and strange methods of hermeneutics is damaging to viewers. Continually giving this man a platform to speak untruths is dangerous. I believe Steve Chalke is being sincere but he is sincerely wrong.
In the end there will always be those who take the easier path and accept the current secular trends. They will use a friendly and affirming tone. They will wrap it in politically correct sweet sounding words. Solomon did something similar when he allowed temples of his wives gods to be built. He loves his wives. It looked and felt "right" to him. God turned Israel against him because the "right" of man in no way changes what God has laid out for us. Man will never teach God something....
Steve Chalke is trying so hard to get the bible to allow something that it just clearly forbids, and for no good reason at all whether biblical or extra-biblical. The list ending Romans 1 is referring to those who do not acknowledge God just as 1:18 says. The list isn't saying that people that have same-sex sex also have all these other vices and it's these other things that make them evil; it's saying that people that don't acknowledge God's rule over them suffer from the listed vices as God's judgment for their sins (the more we sin, the harder our hearts become and the more open to sin we become). Romans 1 says nothing about the kind of sex Paul's talking about being outside of or within marriage; it just says that men sleeping with men and women sleeping with women is wrong (in and of itself, no matter how that person otherwise behaves). There also isn't a single good argument out there for thinking that homosexuality is morally permissible. The masses have just been beaten over the head with pressure from media, celebrities and general name-calling ("you're a homophobe") into the position that same-sex sex must be ok.
But if this is your view, that we should take everything that Paul says at face value and look no deeper, then you should also believe that slavery is an acceptable state because this is what Paul says.
@@balletktmc , yes you're at least partially right, but it depends on what kind of slavery you're talking about. Kidnapping another person against their will is obviously wrong and the bible also rules that out (Ex 21:16 makes it punishable by death). However, freely subjecting yourself to slavery, especially temporarily seems morally permissible. I wouldn't say it's a good thing but it is permissible. If you say slavery is always wrong because the value of freedom outweighs the cost for the enslaved, then I think you're stuck. If their freedom is so valuable, then why don't they have the freedom to choose slavery? In the old world, slavery was pretty much the only welfare system they had (historically, very few cultures have had enough wealth for the kind of welfare we've begun to provide recently). If a person is starving and without any options, I believe it is permissible for them and another person to reach an agreement to work to have basic needs met. I would add, though, that any system that is able to help the impoverished and destitute that isn't slavery, is definitely better, so the abolition of slavery is still to be celebrated. EDIT: Also, I don't view myself as not willing to look any deeper. If there's something I'm missing in Paul, let me know. Looking deeper shouldn't turn into forcing into Paul a view that isn't there (eisegesis).
@@philosopherhobbs i might agree with you on your point if the world were filled with only fair masters, but sadly that is not the case. What you describe sounds more like an indentured servant and while I’m sure this existed it was not necessarily descriptive of all slave circumstances. All I do know is that love is not a sin and I’m certainly not going to condemn anyone for loving someone regardless of whether they happen to be the same gender or not.
@@balletktmc , I agree that what I (and the bible) think is ok is more like indentured servitude. than what we think of as "slavery." What I am most concerned with is what the bible allowed and therefore what Paul thought was permissible when it came to slavery as that is what's relevant to your original comment. I don't know what slavery was like generally throughout history but I think it was probably of the kidnapping variety and so wrong. You're right that love is not a sin but the question at issue is exactly whether homosexuals are being loving toward one another and more importantly toward God. Feeling a certain way doesn't entail that acting on that feeling is loving. God's design for sexuality is foremost in what constitutes loving sex according to Christians and Jews.
@@philosopherhobbs since slavery and indentured servitude are two different things, though, there was no way to ensure a slave was treated fairly (even in the set up you describe); they could even be killed if they were in fact owned. Anyway, one other thought about that (if looking deeper into Paul’s thought process) is that the reason Paul is in favor staying where one is is that he was thinking that Christ’s second coming was imminent (potentially) and that one should care not about their lot in life because they should be casting there cares on that imminent return (a shift of focus if you will), but one could certainly just look at the surface and say that Paul was in favor of slavery. If there was no concept of a loving, monogamous relationship between same sex partners, how can we say for sure that Paul would condemn this, when his only reference is something very different. I know you will have a lot to say about that point and I look forward to hearing from you:)
Also you could see Steve’s insecurity by his constant interruptions during Andrew’s responses. This is also typical of today; they will shout and attempt to shut you up when you say something they don’t agree with. This discussion was cringe for me to watch.
Steve Chalke has for the past 4 videos chosen to paint a picture that he believes how God should be instead of really wanting to know God. With his logic God can be anything anyone wants
louis cyfer the response has nothing to do with whether or not God exists and neither do these videos, instead it implies that the Bible clearly indicates what God finds acceptable and the character of God from the beginning to the end. This has nothing to do with your belief or lack of belief.
@@pcharles6565 Hahaha! It has everything to do with whether god exists or not. Gods most likely DON'T exist so that makes the bible and belief irrelevant.
@@TheTruthKiwi if you wanted to argue on whether or not God exists why wouldn’t you go to a video debating that? This video doesn’t talk about the existence of God. So to stay consistent with the topic it is relevant to talk about the topic that they discuss. Instead you wish to talk about a topic that isn’t discussed, this then proves you have no desire to learn anything about the topic, instead you wish to be inconsistent and go to a video that talks about What is acceptable to God and say He doesn’t exist. If You really want to talk about the existence of God I am happy to do so.
I didn’t really get any meat out of that debate. Where was the scriptural break down from each side? What I heard from the gay affirming side is that they don’t seem to hate God therefore they are good, God-fearing Christians and therefore gay is ok in Gods eyes. Clearly one doesn’t mean the other. From the ‘gay is against Gods will’ side I heard it’s always been interpreted this way. Terrible arguments all around.
That is true .There are a 100 verses about marriage. And God talks about a union only between man and woman. My God says let no man deceive you. And for those who twist the truth and don't follow sound teaching will face the wrath of God.
@@elsainnamorato2231 100%.. I think these “pastors” who promote this filth and are deceiving when they know the truth are going to go to the worst parts of hell. It really is sickening
Exactly! I wish people would ask the bible if slavery is wrong, if women need to cover their heads, if you should sell what you have and give it to the poor, if you can wear mixed fabrics.... right?
@@elsainnamorato2231 Do you know what 'marraige' was in Bible times? It was a contract between 2 men , the father of the man ans the father of the woman. A man bought a pre-teen girl for his son. They 'married' when the girl was 13/14 , without her consent or choice. Today we would call that rape and child abuse. There is no Greek or Hebrew word for husband , wife or marriage. I just says 'the man , took the woman! Took being the operative word , no choice or consent from the woman!
It would be good and appropriate for a church leader to quote scripture when they give us their interpretation, something I believe Steve Chalke would have difficulty doing.
All religion was founded on corruption Constantine was a pagan killed he's wife in hot water and converted to Christianity Henry eight was adulter who as king commited adultery which founded the church of England
As usual I find myself despairing at my own side watching this. My position is far closer to Steve’s, but his method of arguing was terrible. The idea that changing the teachings of the church is a good way to respond to a story about someone being treated very badly is ridiculous. Look at the Catholic Church: nothing in its teachings encourages child abuse, yet numerous members of its hierarchy indulged in child abuse. Changing teaching doesn’t stop nasty people doing nasty things. True conversion of heart does that. I get so tired of these constant appeals to emotion, and assertions about people on the opposing side. My side of the argument desperately needs people like Andrew. What a great man!
It is really sad that sexual expression seems to be considered the ultimate form of Love in our society. Same sex love is all over the Bible and absolutely honored- but sexually expressed love is reserved for man/woman marriage. It is a defect in our understanding if sexual love is the ultimate Good in life.
Sure, I love my sister, no sex involved. She and I are the same sex ( or gender)and we love each other but there is no sexual expression , just like many relationships everywhere,even in the Bible. My point is that sexual relationships are some how considered the ultimate form of human affection. People of the same sex can have deep meaningful relationships without hooking up, I think that our society has lost that point of understanding.
@@dcb774 Ah ok. I understand now. Like David and Johnathans relationship. It's a shame people think that was a homosexual relationship. It just shows how far society has gone that they cannot even conceive that two men or two women can have such a close and intimate friendship.
While open dialogue is and can be a great thing it out conclusion doesn’t change God’s mind. Sadly we allow culture which does change to influence our biblical views and yet again God does not change. The seriousness of this conversation has eternal ramifications that once life has ended can never be changed. Sin is and shall always be sin, right is right and wrong is wrong no matter what view we take or side of this conversation we take. Holiness is and shall never be a matter of convenience.
I watched a video on Steve and how oasis came to be. He had a member in the early start of his church who was greeting new comers and working in the church. He made a point of wanting to talk Steve and opened up and told him he was an homosexual and in a long term relationship with his boyfriend. Now my question. Steve mentions that long term committed homosexual relationships are ok. But just being human were these men also having sex. Reason being if I turned up and said I am in a long term relationship with my boyfriend and we are committed would that be ok? A short reading of scripture would tell me that I can’t be in a relationship with a man sexually and not be married even if we are committed. Why is that ok with homosexuals simply because they say they are committed. 1 Corinthians 6:9
The fact is Claudia during the time the scriptures were written that you’re referring to based on odds, you’d be in an arranged marriage maybe not even by your consent so the idea of marriage 2000 years ago compared to the idea of marriage today are VERY different. I understand the heart of your question and there’s a lot of grey in that area so we should be careful and really look at the hearts intent of the situation which is clearly what Steve is trying to say as well as Andrew too, I think both of them are trying to explain we as representatives of Christ need to come to a better place of representing Christ.
Look back to the story of David and Jonathan that might shed some light. Basically they were linked spiritually with one another while they kept the physical bond with their multiple wives. Aka physical and spiritual connection is clearly separated
@@jeffreyhosman6653 sorry I wasn’t really throwing out looking for an answer. The bible makes it clear in old and new that if you not married you shouldn’t be having sex it is clearly called fornication. You either follow the bible or you don’t it’s not a pick n mix otherwise your following a God of your design.
When you hear that Chalke guy it really dawns on me why western Christianity is in so much trouble. He's so wildly incoherent and anecdotal that I find it hard to believe he's as a Christian. How does he know that the authors that wrote about Jesus weren't wrong too? Catholic and orthodox Christianity at least understands the enormous importance of authority. If protestants leave the last anchor we have in the scriptures, then there's literally nothing left. People like Chalke should shake in fear for undermining the authority of the Bible. May God have mercy on his soul for misleading people like that. It's absolutely unbelievable to see what's going on these days in churches.
He's not a christian..His god is not my GOD and like saint theresa, he is talking many into hell (albeit she did it on full stomachs)...Disinformation and twisting scripture to appease lust will be no excuse as the truth, the bible, is readily available to all...There are few that find it because they don't want it....Pray for them
So as a Christian I would say there are differences between the "Gospel" and other teachings. We consider Jesus to be pure, accurate and fully realized teaching of God. He himself says many things from the old testament were twisted and misunderstood such as the sabbath
IMHO... The scripture is pretty clear about homosexuality.. and there are lots of reasons why it should not be done.. (sickness for example).. Myself as a pastor would say: Gay people you are ALL welcome.. BUT remember what scripture says it doesn't support homosexuality but i'm not the one to judge! Only God can judge you're actions. So it's you're own choice to go against Gods word.. But that's doesn't mean you're not welcome and or we cannot be friends.
@@tonygilder7912 I agree with you but it's hard when a daughter has become a lesbian. I have told her she is wrong, but I wouldn't be rude about it, and neither will I stop loving her. It is pitiful when weak Pastors almost seem to excuse this a abominable practice for fear of being criticised.
Tony Gilder Jesus was friends with sinners. He ate with tax collectors that swindled people out of money and prostitutes. The only people he really spoke down too were religious people who felt that they were so much higher than everyone else and didn’t associate with the least in society. We can be friends, and are called to be friends with people we disagree with to take Jesus’s example. Whenever Paul makes mention to not even eat with a sexually immoral brother, he means a member of the church, who claims to be committed to following biblical principles who is not changing his way of life. A gay person wouldn’t follow this example, therefore we should extend love for even Paul says “who are we to judge outside the church?” Hope this helped clear up his point Grace and peace
That was a very grown-up and adult conversation (unlike some of the comments here ...surprise surprise) not only about the bible and faith but also about a community of very hurt and abused group of people. We need more grown-up and adult conversations around issues that directly affect marginalised people that the church historically had shunned and abused.
I LOVE Andrew Wilson in debates. So grateful. I remember the one with R. Bell years ago. Encouraging. Much appreciation to Premier for this production.
I think that’s a really interesting comparison. It’s approved of in the OT and never expressly condemned institutionally in the New, despite the widespread condemnation of its practice today. I would say the main difference is the presence of verses strongly opposing homosexual acts vs no verses strongly upholding slavery.
As a woman that was previously in a gay relationship, unless Im 110% sure from GOD that its okay to be with another woman in a loving relationship, I wouldnt even think about going there.
In the Bible there are moments when God forbids even heterosexuals marriages for good reasons and He spokes against gay relationship more then one time, so... you are far away from God!
Actually there was never a consensus on slavery , a flat earth etc., e.g.. Wilberforce, Gearge Fox and many more. Should have been challenged on these inaccuracies. Otherwise an interesting debate.
@Daniel Curran nah even their slave Bible had to be modified and codified to make their case. They knew it wasn't true if you read the Bible and actually consider context of slavery it's clearly not endorsed.
Steve is doing what most so called Christians do, they read what they want to hear into the text. If you are honest about what you read, scripture will slap everyone in the face about something. You either reject it, pretend it doesn't say what you don't like, as Steve has done here, or you accept it, and strive everyday to carry your cross and die to yourself and live for Christ. Everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Chalke of course is right in seeing there are pastoral issues to consider - things such as compassion and accepting people. He won't engage with either thinkers from the past or scripture however because his argument won't really stand up. New Testament scholar William Loader deals with issues of sexuality in his book 'Sexuality in the New Testament: Understanding the key texts. Loader asks the question 'What did the key texts in Romans and Corinthians mean in their original context' so he also draws from Jewish sources of the day such as Philo. Those sources affirm Jewish prohibitions and spell out quite clearly that same sex relations are a no-no. So what Chalke and the progressives really need to do is spell out clearly that they believe tradition and scripture to be clearly wrong - full stop.
Interesting. Although not in relation to the title of this discussion, I was a student Baptist minister and experienced awful abuse, my Dad died a week before I started, I then received a physical assault by a member of the church and told to get over my Dad's death, a month after he died! A few weeks later I resigned and we lost a lot as a young family. We said no to going back to church however now am settled in local Anglican church and I am now working for a private ambulance firm as chaplain. We need to LOVE more.
Hopefully nobody in your household doesn’t have a different sexual orientation that is acceptable to you! Seeing as how you have the ultimate authority as to how people are wired! 🙄
Steve is clearly not being biblical, and Andrew, although he holds a Biblical view of scripture, is not defending his position with scripture, making his argument weak. All he had to do was go back to Genesis 1 and 2. God established marriage between one man and one woman from the very beginning. They will become one flesh quite literally in their offspring. We shouldn’t treat homosexuals bad because of this but rather we should realize that we are like them. we all need forgiveness of sin and to be born again through the redemptive and regenerative work of The Holy Spirit.
Christopher Aceves I don't believe that you're qualified to make such a statement. I presume that you personally claim to have been born again. Well I'm in no position to judge your claim than you are with regard to Steve!
Richard Barrow you’re right we shouldn’t make judgement calls, but the Bible says “you will know them by their fruits”. Maybe it’s just that he doesn’t understand the gospel or regeneration and that he is born again but what’s more likely is that he’s a false teacher, leading other people astray with him.
Matthew 5v17 [Jesus said] "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." (fullfill = to fill to full measure)
The really odd thing is why Chalke condemns "promiscuity". There are far more people who exclude themselves from church because they feel church teaching on monogamous marriage is too harsh and judgemental than there are gays..
Very good point. Promiscuity. If I am understanding it right, a person should 'care', 'love' just as Chalke had said, I can argue the promiscuous person really 'cares', 'loves', is 'self-less' for the other person's wife. that's not wrong is it? Chalke is going against the orthodox teaching, the rabbinical teaching, the early church teachings and the Jewish teachings of earthly relationship between mad and a woman
The conversation is very interesting. However, why is God treated as if He's just on the sidelines with no comment about the matter by left/liberal leaning people? Anyone who listens to God knows what HE says about the matter, bottomline. Because what results is a subtle idolatry of shaping God in our image.
You don’t know what God wants at all. You’ve ascribed to God the words man wrote some 2,000 years ago. You think it’s Gods will for the man in Steve’s story to be told he was demonized and abused, irrevocably damaging his life? We need to use our brains here.
Hendrick Sam So you agree we should be using reason? I’d go so far that aside from nature, reason is the only other revelation provided to man, yet you fail to use it when you make statements that you “know what God wants”. And I would disagree on a category distinction, if your inference of God conflicts with reason I think you need to re-evaluate your preconceptions. Every individual in scripture believed the earth was flat. Do you persist with that belief today simply because someone 3,000 years ago said it was so?
@@Actuary1776 "Every individual in scripture believed the earth was flat" I don't remember anyone in scripture claiming the world was flat. What evidence in scripture do you have to make such a claim?
S Baker You can start in Genesis. The Proto Hebrew believed the earth was flat and that it stood on stilts. The Bronze aged man also believed the sky was a glass dome that prevented water above from crashing below. The mountains held the sky up at the horizons. The ocean was considered other worldly. The collection of books you have on your shelf you call the Bible was written pre enlightenment. You have random pieces of art or conjecture that older more ancient societies had an idea of a spherical world, but this by and large wasn’t accepted until the Middle Ages. 1st century Jews believed people with epilepsy were demon possessed, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess they would have had no qualms accepting flat earth.
Steve Chalke is under-studied if he believes that 'arsenokoites' is a mostly misunderstood term. It directly quotes the two verses in Leviticus that blatantly condemn homosexual practice (18:22 + 20:13). A combination of arsenos (man) and koiten (bed/marriage bed). The same word 'Koiten' is used in Hebrews 13 to define a 'marriage bed'. So therefore not only does the term condemn the act itself, it also says it does not belong in a marriage bed.
I’m confused that a verse that supposedly condemns homosexuality only includes one gender, when Leviticus 18:23 when condemning beastiality refers to both genders.
Tony Garner All society was patriarchal and sexist back then, it’s not the point I’m making though, a lot (by no means all) of Christians use Leviticus as a blanket condemnation of homosexuality, only it can’t because of the next verse, I’ve yet to hear anywhere near a plausible reason as to why.
Jason Wood NO...not ALL society was patriarchal and sexist back then. Maybe all “western society.” The Mosul of China, Bribri of Costa Rica, Umoja of Kenya, Minangkabau of Indonesia and the Akan of Ghana’s are just a few of the matriarchal societies that existed outside of the Eurocentric patriarchy. My point was that according to the Bible God only cares about homosexual acts between to men, that’s just one reason why the book is sexist and misogynistic. Some scholars would argue that God only condemns sexual intercourse, and more specifically anal sex, between men. But other “immoral” sexual acts are condemned throughout the Bible between a man and a woman as well.
Tony Garner I should’ve rephrased it by all I mean Near Eastern, Roman and Greek, the cultures covered in the bible, and all three were patriarchal and misogynistic, I haven’t made the claim that it justifies it, I’d state that the bible is a reflection of it’s time, it still veers from the original point that I’m making in relation to Leviticus.
The difference between the act of sexual intercourse between man & women and gay sex in the Bible is procreation. Sex in heterosexual marriage couples with contraception ( as preached by the Catholic Church) is not for pleasure. Masturbation is a sin for the same e reason because it is only for pleasure. Most men masturbate - even those who are married. Teenage men feel guilty about masturbation because of what is written in the Bible. Many men watch Ponography & masturbate. It is healthy ( if not indulge in excess ) & NOT sinful because God makes it so pleasurable.
😢😢😢😢😢😢😢this is a very big issue in the church today and one I’ve been battling my whole life with. I’m sorry to say after watching this I’m none the wiser still just as confused and conflicted as ever ❤
Interestingly enough, I looked and you have the same last name as I. But my purpose for messaging you is that I wanted to help your confusion. Confusion comes from satin. It’s important to understand that we don’t have all the answers. We can only look in scripture and ask God to reveal things. We are just called to love each other. We are not God, ultimately he makes decisions on the subject. Learn about Him everything you can. For me the scripture that helps and is very simple is Genesis. Where it says- in the beginning God made man and woman. Adam and Eve. And goes on to mention the story and there children. From there everyone started running around making up there own ideas that had nothing to do with God. My Maiden name is Porter
Perhaps in future conversations on this topic you can address the plethora of issues in the Bible which have both components of that which is Norm and that which is exception. Many conservatives like myself only address the norms and rarely if ever discuss exceptions in spite of them actually existing in scripture and in the culture of Old and New Testament times as is also true in modern times.
When liberals insist everything is vague and we can’t be certain they are actually being certain and use that cry as a means of closing down disagreement.
20:40 Doesn't he know that the Bible taught the Earth is a sphere? Also, all this commotion of a flat Earth has only really been around for a couple centuries at best, ancient man is not as stupid as Steve makes them out to be.
As a Christian I believe that Nothing can Equal because Nothing is Equal to marriage as defined by God himself. There are three points that make marriage between a man and a woman thrice Holy. 1: First man, Adam, and first woman, Eve, were the first Husband and Wife as ordained by God in Genesis chapter 2. Because God created man and woman to be husband and wife, marriage is therefore Holy. Genesis 2:24 says “Therefore shall a man leave his fatherand mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh.” 2: The second reason that marriage between a man and a woman is Holy is that the Lord Jesus Christ considers himself the “Bridegroom” and the Church (Those who are Saved) the “Bride.” In Revelation 19:7 it says “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready.” 3: The third reason why marriage between man and woman is Holy is because the union between a husband and wife is a picture of Salvation. When Adam sinned a connection between him and God was lost. A spiritual connection. However when we accept the Lord Jesus as our Saviour his Holy Spirit spreads his Love abroad in our hearts and reconnects us to God. The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 5:25 says “Husbands love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church, and gave himself for it.” So as a Believer in the Son of God, I felt compelled to tell you why Nothing can Equal marriage between a man and a woman because Nothing is Equal. However I would also like to draw your attention back to Revelation 19:7 and to the marriage between the Lamb and the Church in Heaven. I am wondering if you could answer a question for me: Will I see you there? If not then you can only be in one other place in Eternity and that is the Lake of Fire. We read about it in Revelation 20:15 “And Whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire.” Now see that word “Whosoever?” It is an important word. Jesus himself used it in John 3:16 “For God so loved the World (male, female, rich, poor, Irish, British, African, American, Gay, Straight) that He gave his only begotten Son, that Whosoever believes in him should not perish but have Everlasting Life.” Everlasting Life does not start when you die but when you Believe. That means that if you repent of your sins and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ that you will have Peace, Joy, and Hope in your heart right now and the Holy Spirit to guide and comfort you, and the marriage feast in Heaven itself. After all the Lord Jesus Christ took your place on that Cross on Calvary because he loved you. I hope, trust and pray that I will see you there in Heaven for the marriage of the Lamb of God and the Church - we who love him, because he first loved us.
One of the things to remember in this discussion is that Paul was an apostle to the gentiles and in the Greek gentile culture homosexuality was the norm, even among converted Christians; whether it was promiscuous or in a so called permanent loving relationship between same sex couples. Paul maintained his Judaic stance based on Biblical law. This same process is taking place today in some factions of the Church. God's word is being reinterpreted to justify a person's sexual lifestyle. The sexual organs of male and female get rid of waste through urine which is sterile. The male organ is made to give and the female to receive in normal sexual intimacy. The other part of the body which gets rid of waste in the form of feces is not sterile and is restricted to the elimination contaminated byproducts of food after is has gone through the digestive process. The nerves which encourage this process work one way and to reverse this for sexual gratification/ excitement is to go against the natural order of God's creation. Steve Chalk means well but he is wrong. I am sure that if he was to meat St Paul, Paul would point again to his clear teaching on homosexuality, and let us remember Paul like Jesus Christ died for what he believed in and in what he tort .
The Gentiles(much better rendered nations) that Paul ministered to were the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel... the Israelites who had been in the Assyrian captivity and dispersed amongst the heathen nations.
My only thing is while you can make a strong argument against two males that same argument can't be really made for two females most cases the bible addresses this it mainly talks about two men burning in lusting or man lying with mankind like womankind yet the same is not applied for the female. But we often think what's good for the goose is good for the gander but it isn't. And again I think the most logical explanation as to woman it doesn't refer to women is because women don't have dicks I get people will refer to Paul saying women leave the natural use but there's no evidence to what that natural use is. Yet it takes about leaving the natural use of a woman and specifically talking about two men. Then again all the other verses of texts it always referred two men but not two women.
People interpret the bible differently in the name of love. Imagine you had to reject the love of someone who you loved so dearly to fit gods mold or what people perceive it to be. It’s an open conversation that we shouldn’t be afraid to discuss. If we discussed and shared more of a community then maybe there wouldn’t be such a split in the church. The Protestant church is made up of different denominations who don’t all exactly believe or stand for the same things. Obviously we get it wrong. We’re only human. No one is free from sin in gods eyes
Well, my friend, with all due respect to your history with your church. I think the main problem is that people think God's incapable of effectively relating His will to His creations. In our post-modern age we like to place our flesh/nature/feelings above facts, authority and Truth. So we like to speak for God to make His will align with our wishes/flesh/nature/feelings. But it doesn't work like that. I can say I'm attracted to babies, and I was born this way and can't help it. But it doesn't mean that it is right. Whether one believes the Bible, (which Jesus affirmed) was inspired by God or not. In it God relates atleast 3 things. We are deficient...the one with homosexual desires as well as the sociopath, or the person with anger issues beating his spouse or getting into fights everywhere, the liar, the constantly fornicating spouse etc etc. Secondly that eternal life is provisioned for everyone of those through anyone who believes and makes active effort to follow him. And thirdly that healing and change and becoming a new creature in Christ possible through the Spirit. This to enable anybody to walk in the spirit rather than the desires of the flesh/nature/feelings. For some this has meant complete turnaround to heterosexual desire and a life married with kids, for others (to this point) it has meant the dying of sexual urges and passions for the same sex, for other it has meant a mere ability to be celibate. And any kind of sin can be a lifelong weakness for us as Christians, but all is possible through Him. May people realize the gift of death penalty substitution given in Christ. And may their relationship with God change them through His Spirit. In His own way and own time, by their measure of faith. Amen.
@@shanevan1 Hi Shanevan. No, I don't believe that God wrote a series of books through ancient people. When I look at it's history of formation I see a very human creation. You say, " we like to speak for God and make his will"...etc.. It is christians that like to speak for God. I just speak for myself and my understanding of life.
Well, fair enough. I do believe so, mainly because of its history, formation, and unparalleled preservation, ofcourse the historical person of Jesus Christ and its content. Which time and time again proves itself, not only personally and experientially in my life but also through the emperical sciences and history. But I ave noticed your stance is a common trend. And I believe mainly because if God's main way of communicating to our generation doesn't hold weight and authority there is a sense of freedom to basically be our own definers of wrong and right, good and evil etc. It has been the shift since the end of the 19th century and the proclamation of God's "death" by Nietzsche. We could blame the Christians (and the ancient Jews) for them "speaking for God" but indeed it all hangs on the question if God has been capable of communicating to mankind in the past. For a plethora of reasons I'd say the scriptures could be trusted. Archeologically, and historically, prophetically it has proven itself to be just as sound as its transformational power. But yea it would be eassier to just discount it as some ancient collection of wisdom...so I understand. It seems liberating, but it really isn't. But that's something for everyone to find out for themselves I guess. God bless in your journey bro.
@@shanevan1 Amen...Very well versed...These people search out teachers that condone their behavior not rectify it and sadly, today, there are so many false shepherds such as this person...Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Steve Chalke unfortunately is not a Christian, he is a humanitarian. He has no sense of Gods holiness, His justice, love, mercy, wrath & grace. He has no concept of what God says about the heart and nature of mankind and our standing before a righteous & holy God! He simply does not understand the Gospel or has simply rejected the Gospel message for a more palatable gospel of inclusivity! This is a false Gospel. We should keep Steve Chalke in our prayers for his heart to be softened to receive and believe the true Gospel to the Glory of GOD the Father, through the Son and in the power of the Holy Spirit! 🙌🏾
Craig, I suggest that you learn the difference between a humanitarian and a humanist ... and of course you don't really know that what you say about Steve Chalke is true. WHY do you lie and have the audacity to do it in Jesus Name when you don't have any idea what you are talking about?
Andrew - Amen! Steve - doesn't seem to me to be interpreting the Bible accurately, but rather trying to make it sound nicer to those who don't want to obey it!
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
@@user-cu3xn4xj3i The bible is not God. To ascribe the attributes of God to a book is idolatry. The bible isn't omnipotent, omnipresent, or perfect. The Word of God as we have it has always been the Word as perceived by men.
To all homosexual guys and lesbians. The Chistian life, led of course by Jesus continues, to grow and evolve. Jesus left the door open to us. He came to fulfill the Law. By that He removed all Old Testament restrictions. You are loved by God and my brothers and sisters in Christ. You are NOT rejected by Christ. By the way, I'm straight.
Hi Justin. Hope you and your family are well and safe in England. Thanks for an interesting debate. Well done Andrew for your sound Biblical stance and robust theology. Unfortunately, Steve’s theology is badly flawed and sadly he is in an influential position teaching this dangerous stuff to our brothers and sisters in Christ. I pray that God will guide and teach/correct him. And may God keep you all safe and give you his peace. Brother Mike in Tasmania
The Love That Dares To Speak Its Name By James Kirkup As they took him from the cross I, the centurion, took him in my arms- the tough lean body of a man no longer young, beardless, breathless, but well hung. He was still warm. While they prepared the tomb I kept guard over him. His mother and the Magdalen had gone to fetch clean linen to shroud his nakedness. I was alone with him. For the last time I kissed his mouth. My tongue found his, bitter with death. I licked his wound- the blood was harsh For the last time I laid my lips around the tip of that great cock, the instrument of our salvation, our eternal joy. The shaft, still throbbed, anointed with death's final ejaculation I knew he'd had it off with other men- with Herod's guards, with Pontius Pilate, With John the Baptist, with Paul of Tarsus with foxy Judas, a great kisser, with the rest of the Twelve, together and apart. He loved all men, body, soul and spirit. - even me. So now I took off my uniform, and, naked, lay together with him in his desolation, caressing every shadow of his cooling flesh, hugging him and trying to warm him back to life. Slowly the fire in his thighs went out, while I grew hotter with unearthly love. It was the only way I knew to speak our love's proud name, to tell him of my long devotion, my desire, my dread- something we had never talked about. My spear, wet with blood, his dear, broken body all open wounds, and in each wound his side, his back, his mouth - I came and came and came as if each coming was my last. And then the miracle possessed us. I felt him enter into me, and fiercely spend his spirit's finbal seed within my hole, my soul, pulse upon pulse, unto the ends of the earth- he crucified me with him into kingdom come. -This is the passionate and blissful crucifixion same-sex lovers suffer, patiently and gladly. They inflict these loving injuries of joy and grace one upon the other, till they dies of lust and pain within the horny paradise of one another's limbs, with one voice cry to heaven in a last divine release. Then lie long together, peacefully entwined, with hope of resurrection, as we did, on that green hill far away. But before we rose again, they came and took him from me. They knew not what we had done, but felt no shame or anger. Rather they were glad for us, and blessed us, as would he, who loved all men. And after three long, lonely days, like years, in which I roamed the gardens of my grief seeking for him, my one friend who had gone from me, he rose from sleep, at dawn, and showed himself to me before all others. And took me to him with the love that now forever dares to speak its name.
Do wish Steve Chalke would stop talking over Andrew and give him the same respect Andrew is affording him. Whatever the discussion he’s a poor debater and comes across rude.
Davey Murphy I have listened to all of these four discussions, and to my perception, Steve in no way speaks down to Andrew. In fact in the first session I heard it appeared to be the other way round,, while now they seem to show fairly equal respect. I think we Christians tend to react very strongly when we hear views that conflict with our own long-standing cherished ways of thinking.
Weird - I though the exact opposite. That Andrew was dominating the conversation - refusing to let Steve reenter or counter any of his points. At points when he tried Andrew very abruptly said "NO - WAIT".
A lot of homosexual activists read, know and object to the verses of the bible that deals with homosexuality. I remember Virginia Mollenkott who was an advisor to the New International Version of the bible saying she wanted to soften the verses that deals with homosexuality. Whatever doctrine you believe the bible supports, you must be able to positively show that it's a biblical teaching. For example that there are verses that teach you could have sexual relationships with anything other the men with women.
I am a bit confused, and I gathered what I could from both sides of the debate.. so is same-sex couples having sex a sin? Or what? Is it a sin because they are together as homosexuals or not? And what if they were not married?
It’s fascinating that the topic is “what does the scripture say” but there are no bibles there to reference, and few scriptures quoted to make either argument, simply two men hovering with their experience and interpretation of the scripture.
Everything Steve is claiming is completely irrelevant. He's trying to affirm Christ into an emotional opinion of relationships, not an objective opinion on scripture. His countless logical fallacies, and attempt to indulge in this hedonistic, "If it feels good do it, so long as you're not hurting anyone ideology" is completely unbecoming of a minister. This is elementary. There is no discussion here. Here's a man with facts, and a man with an emotional opinion. It's intellectually dishonest to focus on mischaracterizations, in order to sway the debate. The flat earth analogy is an argument a child would make, not an educated man of God. This is embarrassing to watch.
Great point Andrew makes at the end re: jumping to conclusions way off the middle ground. But at 18.15 - is he saying he really hopes that no church prays for healing where homosexuality is concerned or treats it like there might be a spiritual component involved?? If so, I'm surprised .. 🤷♀️
Consensus is not a good argument at all (perhaps as a secondary by the way reference of people who agree). Exegesis of the text leads us to a clear understanding that homosexuality is clearly forbidden and contrary to nature. Chalke has nothing bar anecdotes. 1 Cor 6:9-11. Plus there is not one positive reference to homosexuality in the Bible. They have the say the Bible is silent on this issue, when it's clearly not. What next? Is bestiality wrong? You could use the same argumentation that Chalke is using here to justify anything, including paedophila, bestiality etc.
The construct of homophobia and the psychometric properties of instruments purporting to measure homophobia are critically evaluated. The history of the term and its various definitions are briefly reviewed. We conclude that existing measures of homophobia have been inadequately psychometrically evaluated and therefore it is not clear whether currently this construct can be accurately measured. It is also concluded that the construct of homophobia, as it is usually used, makes an illegitimately pejorative evaluation of certain open and debatable value positions, much like the former disease construct of homosexuality. Finally, proposals for theory development and construct definition in the domain of reactions to homosexuals and homosexuality are provided.
The only relationship that includes sex that is mentioned and blessed in the Bible is marriage...marriage is between a man and a woman as described by Jesus in the NT and the Father in the Hebrew scripture.
Marriage in the Bible isn't between a man and a woman. Marriage in the Bible is often between a man, his wife, his concubines, the women he has bought or from war. This is why I don't think the Bible is a good standard for marriage. A good standard for marriage is a legal contract between two consenting adults.
@@tihiandrew The Bible isn't clear though. You referred me to the words of Paul to the Church in Corinth. I usually look to what Jesus said and he wasn't clear regarding LGBTQQIA relationships. We do however see the following in the Bible: King Solomon with 700 concubines Fathers selling their daughters Men taking additional wives Captured women from countries becoming additional wives Men sleeping with their servants to have children because their wives can't Overall, the Biblical marriage is not one I want in America today. I prefer marriage where adults can consent to be in the marriage.
The reason the mindset is changing is because the Bible has been changed. The problem is that "the church" has allowed the culture to effect their doctrine and beliefs and not stood firm on the Word of God. Steve Chalke obviously doesn't believe in the whole council of God, he (and many) pick and chose they want to believe. I also heard, very clearly, that he said "my gospel", that speaks volumes. It is such a shame that the people that were talking about being abused by the church were possibly treated so badly. Consider, however, so often that people in our modern society cannot view correction as anything but hurtful.....and the Proverbs are clear that correction is a good thing. As far as the ones that were truly mistreated, those that mistreated them are wrong, period. Also consider, Chalke's position, that the Bible is wrong about this, is equally hurting these people. Allowing them to remain in their sinful relationships and condone their actions isn't loving at all.
Matt. 7:22,23; “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity”
I would expect that none of the people in the video support working iniquity. The question is whether gay relationships are right or wrong. First prove they're wrong, then you can claim that God is opposed to them, not before.
@@MusicalRaichu The Love that you have for the person is genuine, but God ask us to deny our flesh in a daily. There’s multiple scriptures that talk about sexual immortality. Sexual immorality is any sexual relationship outside of the biblical marriage of Man and woman. That means that anything else that doesn’t look or function exactly the same is not in Gods standard. Therefore, it is immoral Leviticus 20: 10-16, Hebrews 13:4 , Romans 1: 27-28 , 1 Corinthians 7 : 1 - 2, 1 Corinthians 6:18, etc. there’s so many more verses that again explain Gods standard and again explain what isn’t Gods standard.
@@ozzyb6595 we don't practice "biblical marriage" anymore as we now in the west consider it immoral and degrading. since some time in the middle ages, the church started insisting that a woman has to give her consent, and for the last couple of centuries, marriage has primarily been for romantic reasons. furthermore, we no longer allow concubines as in modern times we consider it adultery. we've even changed the concept of adultery, like it's now adultery for a married man or woman to go to a prostitoot. the idea that secs was only for a man and woman in marriage is one invented by christians in early centuries and we have inherited the belief. protestants changed a few things since then 1 clergy can now get married too 2 you can do it for pleasure i.e. not only for reproduction as they believed then 3 more recently we understand saimsecs acts as intrinsically wrong, not wrong because they're for pleasure and not reproduction. the bible never says what you claim. it's all a misinterpretation imposed on the text. you need to have a look at the quotes you gave me more carefully as i think you may have misunderstood them.
@@MusicalRaichu yeah the new testaments talks about how we should be married to 1 wife. God abolished multiple wives back in Moses time. So biblical marriage in regards to how God left it in the New Testament isn’t practice like it use to be. I’ll agree with you on that much. Also there’s no misinterpretation. I’m literally showing you Gods standards. And if you chose to ignore it to push your modern day view of how it should be is honestly between you and God at that point. Only 1 will be right. No man is right.
@@ozzyb6595 alas there is a lot of misinterpretation. for one thing, i can't see anywhere where premarital lovemaking is said to be wrong. there is a word porneia or something whose meaning is debated but there's no proof it meant prematerial thingy. but my point here isn't to promote that sort of thing anyway - i'd rather leave that issue to people's own conscience. the more serious issue is the terrible harm done to the gay community by our beliefs that are based on very blatant misinterpretation. there is no statement in the bible that says "all saimsecs acts are intrinsically wrong". that's something we've read into what the bible says in modern times. even worse is the idea that same-secs attraction is a sin people have to repent from . thank goodness many a leaving that idea behind. but even so, i haven't seen any sincere repentance and attempts at restitution for the horrific damage that idea has done. and there are some who still cling to it.
A lesson for us all...I remember Steve Chalke being the "evangelical poster boy" in the 1990s and put on a pedastool. NEVER do this to ANY preacher or church leader, or "Christian celebrities" either (remember Jonathan Edwards?) Only GOD is to be trusted 100%...sinful man, yes even the greatest of preachers, can fall away.
All “love” does not equate to “Love” in the Biblical sense. Agape - God’s unconditional love Sturgi - Love within a family Phileo - Brotherly love Eros - Sexual love When we deny God’s design for Eros, in Genesis 2:24, then our own passions rule the show and people believe a lie.
@@madeofstars6857 its been too long for me to remember the conversation but the transformation and healing we all need is universally found as we each receive Christ into our hearts. The Body of course, meaning the people in the congregation, must also administer Christs love to everyone who enters. I wouldn't even want to be still sleeping with my boyfriend or still smoking dope after being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Jesus' love is worth giving it all up for. Like I said, He's the Pearl of great price. Which means we have to sell everything to buy the field where its buried. That may sound simplistic to you but its the simple truth that confounds the wise of this fallen world. Also, I'm not catholic so I don't believe celibacy is a law for ministers. Paul just infers its much easier to be focused without being married, but as you may or may not know, Peter was married.
Can we just ignore parts of the Bible that we don't agree with? Can the Romans Chapter 1 be any more clear on this? Jesus calls us not just to believe but to be born again.
Steve Chalke needs to read the king James bible so he can include the real reason for homosexuality rather than presenting 3 strawman arguments. the truth is God has handed them over to a reprobate mind and they cannot be saved 👍 glad u announced where your church is a will avoid you like the plague Steve Chalke I find it very hard to entertain the idea that you are even saved.
Also, it's funny how he says being promiscuous will destroy you (which he is correct), but he's ok with homosexual anal sex as long as it's monogamous. As if anal sex is ok. NOT. It's not even ok with normal heterosexual.
You can almost tell who has a more Christ like opinion with their character in this short video. Oasis church man is oppositional, interrupting, doesn’t listen but just waits to disagree, angry, patronising. the other guy is measured, sober, articulate, gentle and assertive. One day Christ will come back and judge these false teachers - hallelujah but how terrifying for them. We can only keep speaking truth to comprise and error and praying
It's nice to hear what Steve thinks. Most Christians that I know agree with him; it feels like it's only the more strict ones that continue to be homophobic. It's so easy for someone who's straight to say gay people should stop having sex when they (the straight people) won't. :)
If you are straight and having sex outside of marriage they are to stop as well. All unnatural and unmarried and extra marital sex is to be repented of.
Hebrew 13:4 let marriage be held in honor above all, and let the marriage be undefiled. Or God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous..... There are a hundred verses about marriage. God blesses only one kind of Union between man and woman.
Mr. Rogers. I cant find your comment but suffice it to say God's thoughts are so far above and beyond our greatest thoughts that its worth submitting to them and acting on them in faith that they are wiser and truer than our logic and menial understanding of the bigger picture.
@@keithrogers4170 you are saying self love isn't condemned in scripture? Lol. Self love is self centered and that's exactly the opposite of what Christ exemplified snd taught. We naturally love ourselves snd take care of ourselves first so therefore the admonition to love our neighbor as ourselves but have you ever tried to do that? It takes God's love in us to be that selfless. At least it does for me.
@@kcjones44 Sorry ...that was actually a typo!..predictive text inserted "per self love"..when I meant to say "per se". To be honest though,healthy self-love isnt a sin,unless it becomes egotistical vanity or pride. The lord does instruct others "to love others as we love ourselves"...so he assumes,and expects us to love ourselves(ie honestly appreciate and care for ourselves)..and he doesnt say this is a sin.After all,if he dont love ourselves,how can we honestly love others?
The three different approaches he talked about that Christian's have toward homosexualiy: 1. It's a demon that needs to be cast out 2. It's something that needs healing 3. It's ok just don't act on it I think each person's sexuality is different, even each person's homosexuality. So it doesn't make sense to apply a template of one answer is always true. I find God's ways are not so cookie cutter. We need to listen to each person's individual needs and not think we already have the solution.
Do you want to get as close to what the original authors of the New Testament thought of it? Simply look up letters written by the early church fathers. Some clearly speak about what was meant about it in 1st century Christianity. And folks, it hasn’t changed.
The original text say nothing about it. The original text point towards pedophilia and the original text point towards male prostitution. Not homosexual relationship marriages. People of the church are absolutely brainwashed because they think that the Bible is perfectly intact. When you start listening to scholars and you start studying the Greek and hebrew, you'll see that humanity has been had by a bunch of evil criminals hiding the truth from us while shoving religion down your throat and making you obey everything they say. Better wake up
@@ClayRuffner really? You want to talk to some of the leading scholars of the new testament? They'll tell you exactly what's being said. Why do you think we have all these different translations and 40,000 different denominations? Everybody claims to know the truth right? Who's right and who's wrong? Who's to say the Bible wasn't manipulated to control the masses? To me religion is such a good thing to use because people are scared into accepting Christ and obey like good little sheep blindly. No the Bible was referencing to prostitution of male children, the older aggressive men would play with them as they would a woman. Pedophilia was a big problem back then. Trust and believe that when you look at the Greek and Hebrew that's what this points towards. You can't deny that one bit. Their culture was way different than ours is now. Homosexual and this word in particular never even existed till the 1800s. So there's a lot of adding and taking away that happens with Bible translations which causes a lot of confusion, I can point towards tons of contradictions due to everybody's own interpretation of scripture, it's a big mess. And it needs to be settled. God asked you to love one another so do it.
It seems Steve is using the world's morality against that of the holy spirit. These stories of very human falures tug at the heart but that still does not make it right.
The bible is so clear on this issue that it cannot be misunderstood... old testament or new , the Word is clear. It has nothing to do with committed relationships and everything to do with the act...men who lie with men or women with women are committing a sin in GODs eyes and regardless what I think or you think it is only HIS opinion that counts. These are the last days and time is running out! Love and pray for the sinner but hate the sin Grace and peace to all Gilly wife of Mark
Jesus made it very clear....He loves those who obey His commandments! Any person who says they love God and don't obey, John calls a liar, they walk in darkness, and the truth is not in them! Adam was sentenced to death for one sin. We lose sight of how grievous sin is to the Father and the price that was paid to atone for our sins.
@Matt You'll have to forgive me. I haven't watched this video in 5 months. I don't remember it specifically. However, I do remember that the older man is very liberal in his biblical exegesis and incorrect in his application. Based on my comment, I believe he spoke in a way that says God loves everyone. Hence why I posted what I did, because he would be incorrect. Other than that, I don't know what you're trying to get at.
God does NOT kill his children. He sent Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden because it is a spiritual place, and they are physical beings. If they stayed there, they would’ve died.
@@adamdab5388 That's nonsense. There is no text to support that Eden was spiritual. In fact the scriptures support it was a physical place, naming rivers and animals. You should read Gen 1 and 2 again.
Steve Chalke: I think we need to read the Bible more clearly
*Proceeds then to use mostly anecdotal stories to explain his position.*
Exactly...Stories that have no Biblical precedent. Stories that are not supported by the teachings of Jesus Christ nor His Apostles.
@@NtheNow
Amen!
@@NtheNow Christianity existed before the Bible you have today so your position is a bit silly.
@@CyprusHot , You are definitely not a Bible Student. Christianity begun 50 days after the death of Jesus Christ. The Disciples traveled to Jerusalem and meet in the Upper Room of a man's house and 120 (all) of them were filled with the Holy Ghost. So you are wrong, the followers of Yahweh in the Old Testament kept the Mosiac Law, followers in the New Testament keep the Commandments of Christ! Jesus declared, "I and my Father are one!"
NtheNow Never write “student” with a capital S. Incorrect grammar.
Christianity flows from Christ, when the God-Man became visible.
If you are referring to the one true church then that was when the Holy Spirit empowered the Apostles after Jesus’ resurrection.
Your comments about the OT and NT law are for what purpose? Don’t try to write more to make your response seem more educated.
I suggest you read my comment again and slowly. Before the Bible was canonised as it is today, Christianity existed. I’m clearly referring to the NT. Everyone knows the OT existed before Jesus was incarnated.
I suggest you respond better next time.
I was in the gay life for 16 years. It is destructive and it is NOT of God. God loves the gay person (and He pursued and saved me), but when Jesus shows up, you leave your nets and you follow Him. And He calls us to deny ourselves and follow. Jesus is enough....but following Him is costly and never easy....but in this world He is the only thing that will heal, restore and satisfy.
AMEN! praise God I'm so happy for your salvation.
Thanks for sharing this Cory! Was this position of the homosexual lifestyle something you felt the Holy Spirit personally convicted you of through God's word and seeking His will?
I'm curious because I found the story in the this video interesting about the lady who was a lesbian and told by a pastor it was okay, but surrendered it to Jesus because she believed His word said it wasn't pleasing to God.
I'm starting to have the mindset that (at least for a strait male like myself) it's best to focus on other things when sharing the love of Christ with a gay person. And if they ask if they have to give up that lifestyle, encourage them to seek God's will by reading his word carefully and opening they life completely to Him and let them know I'll be praying for them find out what brings glory to God.
Do you thinks this is a loving and effective approach? If there's anything you'd like to inform me on about how to approach gay people with the love of Christ I'd love to learn, thanks again Cory.
joshua church my experience that night in my bedroom when the love of Jesus transformed my life, the thought of continuing in my gay life was not even a consideration. My experience was similar to in a way to the disciples dropping their nets and following immediately or Paul being immediately a different man. Years later i has struggles, but for 2-3 years, it was literally a non-issue. HOWEVER, my experience is NOT most folks experience. The best we can share with a gay person is a message of love and that while we love them, we do not feel the gay life is going give them what they need. Jesus is enough.
Adolf Hitler's Missing Testicle being attracted to the same sex is not being “gay”. I have been out of the gay life for basically about 16 years. I struggle at times with some things in my mind, but at this point....the things I used to do in the gay life sexually are now repulsive to me and I have no interest in going back there. Jesus is enough. The gay life does not satisfy in my experience. Thx.
Perfect answer.
@10:53 Steve Chalke tries to clarify a point, and then he states "my gospel..." and then explains his point. Whether he intended to say that or not doesn't matter. It sure says a lot about his view. It's his gospel.
It reminded me of what the word says “even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!” Galatians 1:8
It's definitely not Jesus's gospel
Anathema
I was just about to point this out! I COMPLETELY disregarded him at that point.
To be fair, Paul does use the phrase "according to my gospel" in Romans 16. Not a fair critique.
The issue is SIN and why we need the Gospel and a Saviour! It does not matter what sexual relations you have, it is sinful, unless it is performed inside of the marriage covenant which was created, by God, for man, with a woman. No sin is more or less than any other. Everyone, born again, in the Body of Christ has to turn from their sin(s) and "go and sin no more" (John 8:11).
Quoted from Steve Chalke "These people [LGBTQ+] came along, they love Jesus, they want to live for Jesus...these people aren't god-hating, they're not lying and cheating, they not that list from Romans chapter 1. These are people who love God and ... coming to church... though they've been abused yet they cling to this faith in God and this love of Jesus and so I accepted them into the [my] church."
Judge for yourself according to Romans 1:18-32 ...wrath of God ...against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men...are clearly seen...so that they are without excuse ...when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man...Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator...for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet...Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
hey thanks for posting this! what version is this from?
@@freeblom Your welcome. Apologies, I usually put the version. It's either KJV, NKJV or ESV.
Oooo boy I can't WAIT to see what type of mental gymnastics someone is going to try and use to justify themselves after reading that lol Bravo!
@@Richfreerunner2 God made the Bible easy to understand IF you come to Him with a humble heart BUT with pride we twist the truth and our self-proclaimed intellectualism make everything complicated because we don't want to give up our sin. I am not judging anyone, I did terrible sins in my life and I remember before I was born again, when my family tried to witness to me and share the Gospel, I knew what they were saying was true however I was not ready to give up everything for God and I simply said to them "I'm not ready to give it up, I don't want to." I was just honest with them, I was honest with myself and honest with God. We don't need to bend the truth. If we want to remain and live in sin then just admit it for what it is, knowing that the consequences mean there will be a risk that you will pay the price of eternal damnation and not to mention all the pain and heartache that comes while we continue to live in sin.
Worded brilliantly! Mic drop for you. You nailed it and you know Christ.
Romans 6:12
12 Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires.
Bending the Word of God to fit the wishes of humanity. Doesn’t work like that.
@Matt Yeah, he understands it.
@Matt he is being serious. We understand what he means. Well said Follower JC
@Follower JC.yes unfortunately you're right there.
I wouldn’t be so certain that the Bible itself even “speaks for God” it’s a book that’s no doubt been retranslated and rewritten over the course of two thousand years, the bible we see today probably looks nothing like the original one in the time Jesus was alive. Things have no doubt been added or removed long after the death of Christ.
@@silvereyes242 I'll challenge you on this. Which verse are you talking about.
How did words like “dating” and “relationship” become synonymous with “having sex?”
ask heterosexuals. It does for them.
Friends
Let me offer a real answer, based on the historical context and the way that relates to modern Christians (I make no comment on the theology here):
A helpful fact to start with, because it's sometimes difficult to get a good perspective on things as they change, is that we know of no one in the entirety of recorded human history (including via burial traditions, etc.) who was married to a member of the opposite sex until 2001, in the Netherlands.
In fact, marriage _definitionally_ referred to the union of a man and a woman. (Even in polygamy the marriages have never been considered to be the union of one man and four women, but four unions between a man and a woman. From a historical definitional perspective, that's the only significance of polygamy in this context.)
The Corinthians who received Paul's letter would not have understood what you meant if you said a man could not marry a man. It would've been a tautology. As an example: It would be like if people in the future decided a species of ape was a "person" like a human being, and someone in that future reads some historical documents and asks, "Well, if they didn't mean to include apes in this, why didn't they say anything about apes?" The answer, obviously, is because people living today wouldn't be aware that the word "person" might _ever_ be thought to be referring to an ape, because an ape falls outside the definition of "person."
I’m talking specifically about marriage and not the words “dating” or “relationship” for a very similar reason. The concepts of “dating” or “being in a relationship” are new and still not present in many cultures, including some in the West. There wouldn’t have been a way to describe a non-platonic couple other than to say they were betrothed (to be married) or were married. (I'm saying "non-platonic" for modern clarity, but the reality was that outside of the familial context, relationships between adults of the opposite sex were marriages and relationships between adults of the same sex were friendships. A newly married, opposite-sex pair in that time may very well have still had a platonic, non-romantic relationship.)
The reason Christians see the words "dating" and "relationship" as correlated to the prohibition of sex is going to be rooted in the idea that sex takes place only in marriage.* The historical context means only opposite-sex couples constitute a marriage, and "dating" is something we've started to do as a step _toward_ marriage. Therefore, same-sex couples cannot date, because it's not possible for them to ultimately marry each other.
* The reason for the Bible to say both that sex takes place only in marriage and also that homosexual sex is prohibited is not to be redundant, but because (as mentioned above) it would be possible for someone back then to hear "no sex outside marriage" and not consider that the prohibition applied to what they did with someone of the same sex, since what a man was in relation to another man had nothing to do with marriage. (Additionally, because the type of sex had between a man and woman is different than that in same-sex relationships, it would've been plausible to miscategorize it as a separate kind of action, if it hadn't been specifically mentioned.)
1999
I think what you’re discovering is the goalpost shifting and post hoc rationalization of those who claim Paul wasn’t REALLY prohibiting homosexual intercourse
There is no debate. Classic case of False teachers just like the false prophets.
2nd Peter 2:1
I find the most awkward thing about these videos is Steve Chalk doesn’t listen but is constantly waiting to talk. Therefore, he will never change his opinion on anything because he’s not prepared to hear what others have to say. Andrew is respectful and listens to his opponent. He may also be waiting to speak but his body languages whilst a little defensive is also showing that he is prepared to listen.
It also seems like Steve has been bogged down with pastoring and wants to be loved. He started making God in his own image years ago. We can all question and wrestle with hard issues but what we don’t do is make God in our image through our experiences, that is idolatry and is really the worst thing you can do.
And I can see many progressive or modern pastor struggling with the same "idolatry". They have no real biblical mentors...
Steve has change his position because he previously took the same stats as andrew
To be fair at the end it was only Andrew Wilson talking for minutes non stop and he refused to take a breath or allow Steve to reenter the conversation. He simply kept talking and if Andrew tried to interject immediately said "wait - no" and talked over him. Part of debate Etiquette is making a point then allowing the other person to respond. At the end he just makes 5 or 6 different points in succession over about a 2-3 minute period while refusing to allow the other person to speak.
@@serendipitousbliss6548
Probably because Andrew grew tired of Steve's nonsense. Once you see that Steve won't believe/understand what the text actually says he might as well do his best to get the truth out there and drown out the lies.
Steve Chalke has read the Bible "so deeply" he can make it mean whatever he wants. While Unbelievable? has a respected history of bringing Christians and sceptics together, constantly bringing on those claiming to be Christians but preaching a false gospel is not to be commended. Many are being led astray by Mr Chalke and his left wing worldly views. His only objective seems to be to shoehorn the Bible into his sexual idolatry.
Philip Thompson well said Philip! I watch Unbelievable and appreciate giving so called ‘Christians’ a chance to view their perspectives on Scripture but continually having Steve Chalke with his heretical teachings, dodgy theology and strange methods of hermeneutics is damaging to viewers. Continually giving this man a platform to speak untruths is dangerous. I believe Steve Chalke is being sincere but he is sincerely wrong.
In the end there will always be those who take the easier path and accept the current secular trends. They will use a friendly and affirming tone. They will wrap it in politically correct sweet sounding words. Solomon did something similar when he allowed temples of his wives gods to be built. He loves his wives. It looked and felt "right" to him. God turned Israel against him because the "right" of man in no way changes what God has laid out for us. Man will never teach God something....
Steve Chalke is trying so hard to get the bible to allow something that it just clearly forbids, and for no good reason at all whether biblical or extra-biblical. The list ending Romans 1 is referring to those who do not acknowledge God just as 1:18 says. The list isn't saying that people that have same-sex sex also have all these other vices and it's these other things that make them evil; it's saying that people that don't acknowledge God's rule over them suffer from the listed vices as God's judgment for their sins (the more we sin, the harder our hearts become and the more open to sin we become). Romans 1 says nothing about the kind of sex Paul's talking about being outside of or within marriage; it just says that men sleeping with men and women sleeping with women is wrong (in and of itself, no matter how that person otherwise behaves). There also isn't a single good argument out there for thinking that homosexuality is morally permissible. The masses have just been beaten over the head with pressure from media, celebrities and general name-calling ("you're a homophobe") into the position that same-sex sex must be ok.
But if this is your view, that we should take everything that Paul says at face value and look no deeper, then you should also believe that slavery is an acceptable state because this is what Paul says.
@@balletktmc , yes you're at least partially right, but it depends on what kind of slavery you're talking about. Kidnapping another person against their will is obviously wrong and the bible also rules that out (Ex 21:16 makes it punishable by death). However, freely subjecting yourself to slavery, especially temporarily seems morally permissible. I wouldn't say it's a good thing but it is permissible. If you say slavery is always wrong because the value of freedom outweighs the cost for the enslaved, then I think you're stuck. If their freedom is so valuable, then why don't they have the freedom to choose slavery? In the old world, slavery was pretty much the only welfare system they had (historically, very few cultures have had enough wealth for the kind of welfare we've begun to provide recently). If a person is starving and without any options, I believe it is permissible for them and another person to reach an agreement to work to have basic needs met. I would add, though, that any system that is able to help the impoverished and destitute that isn't slavery, is definitely better, so the abolition of slavery is still to be celebrated.
EDIT: Also, I don't view myself as not willing to look any deeper. If there's something I'm missing in Paul, let me know. Looking deeper shouldn't turn into forcing into Paul a view that isn't there (eisegesis).
@@philosopherhobbs i might agree with you on your point if the world were filled with only fair masters, but sadly that is not the case. What you describe sounds more like an indentured servant and while I’m sure this existed it was not necessarily descriptive of all slave circumstances. All I do know is that love is not a sin and I’m certainly not going to condemn anyone for loving someone regardless of whether they happen to be the same gender or not.
@@balletktmc , I agree that what I (and the bible) think is ok is more like indentured servitude. than what we think of as "slavery." What I am most concerned with is what the bible allowed and therefore what Paul thought was permissible when it came to slavery as that is what's relevant to your original comment. I don't know what slavery was like generally throughout history but I think it was probably of the kidnapping variety and so wrong.
You're right that love is not a sin but the question at issue is exactly whether homosexuals are being loving toward one another and more importantly toward God. Feeling a certain way doesn't entail that acting on that feeling is loving. God's design for sexuality is foremost in what constitutes loving sex according to Christians and Jews.
@@philosopherhobbs since slavery and indentured servitude are two different things, though, there was no way to ensure a slave was treated fairly (even in the set up you describe); they could even be killed if they were in fact owned. Anyway, one other thought about that (if looking deeper into Paul’s thought process) is that the reason Paul is in favor staying where one is is that he was thinking that Christ’s second coming was imminent (potentially) and that one should care not about their lot in life because they should be casting there cares on that imminent return (a shift of focus if you will), but one could certainly just look at the surface and say that Paul was in favor of slavery. If there was no concept of a loving, monogamous relationship between same sex partners, how can we say for sure that Paul would condemn this, when his only reference is something very different. I know you will have a lot to say about that point and I look forward to hearing from you:)
Andrew Wilson keep up the work of presenting the Truth of the Word of God. 2 Timothy 4:1-5
Steve is led by emotions and not by the pursuit of truth. This type of relativism frightens me.
Would Chalke believe he could have a gay relationship?
Your definition of the truth is itself subjective. I’d rather have Steve’s empathy over your religious bigotry any day
What you call relativism is just the courage to think for one’s self. That is frightening for someone trapped in a cultic mindset.
@@kellyoradio5029
Your sentence doesn’t even make sense. What are you trying to insinuate?
Also you could see Steve’s insecurity by his constant interruptions during Andrew’s responses. This is also typical of today; they will shout and attempt to shut you up when you say something they don’t agree with. This discussion was cringe for me to watch.
I saw his insecurity by the movement of his mouth upon his introduction in the beginning
Steve Chalke has for the past 4 videos chosen to paint a picture that he believes how God should be instead of really wanting to know God. With his logic God can be anything anyone wants
P Charles how would you get to know something you can't even demonstrate exists?
louis cyfer the response has nothing to do with whether or not God exists and neither do these videos, instead it implies that the Bible clearly indicates what God finds acceptable and the character of God from the beginning to the end. This has nothing to do with your belief or lack of belief.
@@pcharles6565 Hahaha! It has everything to do with whether god exists or not. Gods most likely DON'T exist so that makes the bible and belief irrelevant.
@@TheTruthKiwi if you wanted to argue on whether or not God exists why wouldn’t you go to a video debating that? This video doesn’t talk about the existence of God. So to stay consistent with the topic it is relevant to talk about the topic that they discuss. Instead you wish to talk about a topic that isn’t discussed, this then proves you have no desire to learn anything about the topic, instead you wish to be inconsistent and go to a video that talks about What is acceptable to God and say He doesn’t exist. If You really want to talk about the existence of God I am happy to do so.
@@pcharles6565 Ok, what is your absolute best evidence that a god exists?
I didn’t really get any meat out of that debate. Where was the scriptural break down from each side? What I heard from the gay affirming side is that they don’t seem to hate God therefore they are good, God-fearing Christians and therefore gay is ok in Gods eyes. Clearly one doesn’t mean the other. From the ‘gay is against Gods will’ side I heard it’s always been interpreted this way. Terrible arguments all around.
It sure would be nice if somebody would open up a Bible and share what God says about this issue.
That is true .There are a 100 verses about marriage. And God talks about a union only between man and woman. My God says let no man deceive you. And for those who twist the truth and don't follow sound teaching will face the wrath of God.
@@elsainnamorato2231 100%.. I think these “pastors” who promote this filth and are deceiving when they know the truth are going to go to the worst parts of hell. It really is sickening
Exactly! I wish people would ask the bible if slavery is wrong, if women need to cover their heads, if you should sell what you have and give it to the poor, if you can wear mixed fabrics.... right?
@@elsainnamorato2231 Do you know what 'marraige' was in Bible times? It was a contract between 2 men , the father of the man ans the father of the woman. A man bought a pre-teen girl for his son. They 'married' when the girl was 13/14 , without her consent or choice. Today we would call that rape and child abuse. There is no Greek or Hebrew word for husband , wife or marriage. I just says 'the man , took the woman! Took being the operative word , no choice or consent from the woman!
@@elsainnamorato2231 So there are no verses about marriage in the Bible , neither Hebrew or Greek has a word for marriage!
It would be good and appropriate for a church leader to quote scripture when they give us their interpretation, something I believe Steve Chalke would have difficulty doing.
I regard him as an ex Christian, shame, but he comes across as a really nasty piece of work now.
Steve chalk is brilliant churches can't make there minds up
All religion was founded on corruption Constantine was a pagan killed he's wife in hot water and converted to Christianity Henry eight was adulter who as king commited adultery which founded the church of England
Terry virgo is a sexust he does not believe in theroll of women there are openly gay vicars in the church
Christianity is founded on.corruption but Jesus was somebody who changed the world as a revountary
As usual I find myself despairing at my own side watching this. My position is far closer to Steve’s, but his method of arguing was terrible. The idea that changing the teachings of the church is a good way to respond to a story about someone being treated very badly is ridiculous. Look at the Catholic Church: nothing in its teachings encourages child abuse, yet numerous members of its hierarchy indulged in child abuse. Changing teaching doesn’t stop nasty people doing nasty things. True conversion of heart does that. I get so tired of these constant appeals to emotion, and assertions about people on the opposing side. My side of the argument desperately needs people like Andrew. What a great man!
It is really sad that sexual expression seems to be considered the ultimate form of Love in our society. Same sex love is all over the Bible and absolutely honored- but sexually expressed love is reserved for man/woman marriage. It is a defect in our understanding if sexual love is the ultimate Good in life.
"Same sex love is all over the Bible and absolutely honored" I sure hope that was a typo
Did you read the whole comment?
@@dcb774 yes and I agree with everything but that one statement. Maybe I'm not understanding that one statement. Can you expand on it?
Sure,
I love my sister, no sex involved. She and I are the same sex ( or gender)and we love each other but there is no sexual expression , just like many relationships everywhere,even in the Bible. My point is that sexual relationships are some how considered the ultimate form of human affection. People of the same sex can have deep meaningful relationships without hooking up, I think that our society has lost that point of understanding.
@@dcb774 Ah ok. I understand now. Like David and Johnathans relationship. It's a shame people think that was a homosexual relationship. It just shows how far society has gone that they cannot even conceive that two men or two women can have such a close and intimate friendship.
While open dialogue is and can be a great thing it out conclusion doesn’t change God’s mind. Sadly we allow culture which does change to influence our biblical views and yet again God does not change. The seriousness of this conversation has eternal ramifications that once life has ended can never be changed. Sin is and shall always be sin, right is right and wrong is wrong no matter what view we take or side of this conversation we take.
Holiness is and shall never be a matter of convenience.
I watched a video on Steve and how oasis came to be. He had a member in the early start of his church who was greeting new comers and working in the church. He made a point of wanting to talk Steve and opened up and told him he was an homosexual and in a long term relationship with his boyfriend. Now my question. Steve mentions that long term committed homosexual relationships are ok. But just being human were these men also having sex. Reason being if I turned up and said I am in a long term relationship with my boyfriend and we are committed would that be ok? A short reading of scripture would tell me that I can’t be in a relationship with a man sexually and not be married even if we are committed. Why is that ok with homosexuals simply because they say they are committed. 1 Corinthians 6:9
The fact is Claudia during the time the scriptures were written that you’re referring to based on odds, you’d be in an arranged marriage maybe not even by your consent so the idea of marriage 2000 years ago compared to the idea of marriage today are VERY different. I understand the heart of your question and there’s a lot of grey in that area so we should be careful and really look at the hearts intent of the situation which is clearly what Steve is trying to say as well as Andrew too, I think both of them are trying to explain we as representatives of Christ need to come to a better place of representing Christ.
Look back to the story of David and Jonathan that might shed some light. Basically they were linked spiritually with one another while they kept the physical bond with their multiple wives. Aka physical and spiritual connection is clearly separated
@@jeffreyhosman6653 sorry I wasn’t really throwing out looking for an answer. The bible makes it clear in old and new that if you not married you shouldn’t be having sex it is clearly called fornication. You either follow the bible or you don’t it’s not a pick n mix otherwise your following a God of your design.
When you hear that Chalke guy it really dawns on me why western Christianity is in so much trouble. He's so wildly incoherent and anecdotal that I find it hard to believe he's as a Christian. How does he know that the authors that wrote about Jesus weren't wrong too? Catholic and orthodox Christianity at least understands the enormous importance of authority. If protestants leave the last anchor we have in the scriptures, then there's literally nothing left.
People like Chalke should shake in fear for undermining the authority of the Bible. May God have mercy on his soul for misleading people like that. It's absolutely unbelievable to see what's going on these days in churches.
He's not a christian..His god is not my GOD and like saint theresa, he is talking many into hell (albeit she did it on full stomachs)...Disinformation and twisting scripture to appease lust will be no excuse as the truth, the bible, is readily available to all...There are few that find it because they don't want it....Pray for them
So as a Christian I would say there are differences between the "Gospel" and other teachings. We consider Jesus to be pure, accurate and fully realized teaching of God. He himself says many things from the old testament were twisted and misunderstood such as the sabbath
IMHO...
The scripture is pretty clear about homosexuality.. and there are lots of reasons why it should not be done.. (sickness for example)..
Myself as a pastor would say: Gay people you are ALL welcome.. BUT remember what scripture says it doesn't support homosexuality but i'm not the one to judge! Only God can judge you're actions. So it's you're own choice to go against Gods word.. But that's doesn't mean you're not welcome and or we cannot be friends.
What kind of silly advice from a pastor is that? Be friends? Pitiful.
@@tonygilder7912
I agree with you but it's hard when a daughter has become a lesbian. I have told her she is wrong, but I wouldn't be rude about it, and neither will I stop loving her. It is pitiful when weak Pastors almost seem to excuse this a abominable practice for fear of being criticised.
"So it's you're own choice to go against Gods word" They do not choose to be homosexuals.
Tony Gilder Jesus was friends with sinners. He ate with tax collectors that swindled people out of money and prostitutes. The only people he really spoke down too were religious people who felt that they were so much higher than everyone else and didn’t associate with the least in society. We can be friends, and are called to be friends with people we disagree with to take Jesus’s example. Whenever Paul makes mention to not even eat with a sexually immoral brother, he means a member of the church, who claims to be committed to following biblical principles who is not changing his way of life. A gay person wouldn’t follow this example, therefore we should extend love for even Paul says “who are we to judge outside the church?”
Hope this helped clear up his point
Grace and peace
@@IsaacsCOOLwhenitsHOT amen brother
That was a very grown-up and adult conversation (unlike some of the comments here ...surprise surprise) not only about the bible and faith but also about a community of very hurt and abused group of people. We need more grown-up and adult conversations around issues that directly affect marginalised people that the church historically had shunned and abused.
The comments are so hateful
@@robdog4062 Not true.
I agree. 🏳️🌈
@@robdog4062 What comments do you have in mind?
“He’s wrong”
Snowflakes: HATE😭🤯🤬
I LOVE Andrew Wilson in debates. So grateful. I remember the one with R. Bell years ago. Encouraging. Much appreciation to Premier for this production.
I'm imagining this is probably how the argument against slavery went down.
I think that’s a really interesting comparison. It’s approved of in the OT and never expressly condemned institutionally in the New, despite the widespread condemnation of its practice today. I would say the main difference is the presence of verses strongly opposing homosexual acts vs no verses strongly upholding slavery.
And circumcision 2000 years ago. The church has been wasting its time with these arguments since it's inception
As a woman that was previously in a gay relationship, unless Im 110% sure from GOD that its okay to be with another woman in a loving relationship, I wouldnt even think about going there.
In the Bible there are moments when God forbids even heterosexuals marriages for good reasons and He spokes against gay relationship more then one time, so... you are far away from God!
@@anaarkadievna sorry you replied to Denise Braki but didn’t fully read what she said
@@claudiabailey5302right ahaha
What does Andrew think about gay people what about same sec attraction
@@byronloves7472 hi are you gay or bi
Actually there was never a consensus on slavery , a flat earth etc., e.g.. Wilberforce, Gearge Fox and many more. Should have been challenged on these inaccuracies. Otherwise an interesting debate.
Ever read the book of Philemon. Kinda hard to say the historical view of slavery is a-okay
@@TheCoolWhipz Slavery is clearly wrong God made that clear in Exodus.
@@williamvallespir5509 But among christians it was debated and not collectiiely believed worldwide as a sin until the 1800s.
@Daniel Curran nah even their slave Bible had to be modified and codified to make their case. They knew it wasn't true if you read the Bible and actually consider context of slavery it's clearly not endorsed.
Steve is doing what most so called Christians do, they read what they want to hear into the text. If you are honest about what you read, scripture will slap everyone in the face about something. You either reject it, pretend it doesn't say what you don't like, as Steve has done here, or you accept it, and strive everyday to carry your cross and die to yourself and live for Christ. Everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Chalke of course is right in seeing there are pastoral issues to consider - things such as compassion and accepting people. He won't engage with either thinkers from the past or scripture however because his argument won't really stand up.
New Testament scholar William Loader deals with issues of sexuality in his book 'Sexuality in the New Testament: Understanding the key texts. Loader asks the question 'What did the key texts in Romans and Corinthians mean in their original context' so he also draws from Jewish sources of the day such as Philo. Those sources affirm Jewish prohibitions and spell out quite clearly that same sex relations are a no-no.
So what Chalke and the progressives really need to do is spell out clearly that they believe tradition and scripture to be clearly wrong - full stop.
Andrew spoke for two minutes getting interrupted the whole time and still won the debate.
Interesting. Although not in relation to the title of this discussion, I was a student Baptist minister and experienced awful abuse, my Dad died a week before I started, I then received a physical assault by a member of the church and told to get over my Dad's death, a month after he died! A few weeks later I resigned and we lost a lot as a young family. We said no to going back to church however now am settled in local Anglican church and I am now working for a private ambulance firm as chaplain. We need to LOVE more.
I don’t care what road the “church” goes down on this issue; as for me and my household, we will go down the narrow road of biblical truth 🙏
Consider Orthodoxy!
@@Allin1Xaviconsidering atm. All I need to do is just get my license and drive down to my Greek Orthodox Church.
What do you think about Leviticus 20 13?
Hopefully nobody in your household doesn’t have a different sexual orientation that is acceptable to you! Seeing as how you have the ultimate authority as to how people are wired! 🙄
"I don't do my theology on wikipedia"
Amazing
😳🧐😬😂📖
Yeah, I thought that was a bit smart, actually. Andrew's very intelligent n I think he went a bit low there. Nobody's perfect 🙂🤷♀️
@@elizabethryan2217 it was an appropriate response
@@Dan-xu4sd I didn't think so. I thought it was understandable but unwise.
@@elizabethryan2217 let’s agree to disagree
Steve is clearly not being biblical, and Andrew, although he holds a Biblical view of scripture, is not defending his position with scripture, making his argument weak. All he had to do was go back to Genesis 1 and 2. God established marriage between one man and one woman from the very beginning. They will become one flesh quite literally in their offspring. We shouldn’t treat homosexuals bad because of this but rather we should realize that we are like them. we all need forgiveness of sin and to be born again through the redemptive and regenerative work of The Holy Spirit.
Scissors theater strategy?
Yes I don't think he has been born again.
Christian Cardona Amen brother
Christopher Aceves I don't believe that you're qualified to make such a statement. I presume that you personally claim to have been born again. Well I'm in no position to judge your claim than you are with regard to Steve!
Richard Barrow you’re right we shouldn’t make judgement calls, but the Bible says “you will know them by their fruits”. Maybe it’s just that he doesn’t understand the gospel or regeneration and that he is born again but what’s more likely is that he’s a false teacher, leading other people astray with him.
Didn’t Christ come to correct some mistakes from the Old Testament. (This must include the things said in levaticus)
Matthew 5v17 [Jesus said] "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." (fullfill = to fill to full measure)
The really odd thing is why Chalke condemns "promiscuity". There are far more people who exclude themselves from church because they feel church teaching on monogamous marriage is too harsh and judgemental than there are gays..
Very good point. Promiscuity. If I am understanding it right, a person should 'care', 'love' just as Chalke had said, I can argue the promiscuous person really 'cares', 'loves', is 'self-less' for the other person's wife. that's not wrong is it? Chalke is going against the orthodox teaching, the rabbinical teaching, the early church teachings and the Jewish teachings of earthly relationship between mad and a woman
The conversation is very interesting.
However, why is God treated as if He's just on the sidelines with no comment about the matter by left/liberal leaning people?
Anyone who listens to God knows what HE says about the matter, bottomline. Because what results is a subtle idolatry of shaping God in our image.
You don’t know what God wants at all. You’ve ascribed to God the words man wrote some 2,000 years ago. You think it’s Gods will for the man in Steve’s story to be told he was demonized and abused, irrevocably damaging his life? We need to use our brains here.
@@Actuary1776 The thought that we have choose either God or reason is a CATEGORY MISTAKE as far as Biblical Christianity goes.
Hendrick Sam So you agree we should be using reason? I’d go so far that aside from nature, reason is the only other revelation provided to man, yet you fail to use it when you make statements that you “know what God wants”. And I would disagree on a category distinction, if your inference of God conflicts with reason I think you need to re-evaluate your preconceptions. Every individual in scripture believed the earth was flat. Do you persist with that belief today simply because someone 3,000 years ago said it was so?
@@Actuary1776 "Every individual in scripture believed the earth was flat" I don't remember anyone in scripture claiming the world was flat. What evidence in scripture do you have to make such a claim?
S Baker You can start in Genesis. The Proto Hebrew believed the earth was flat and that it stood on stilts. The Bronze aged man also believed the sky was a glass dome that prevented water above from crashing below. The mountains held the sky up at the horizons. The ocean was considered other worldly. The collection of books you have on your shelf you call the Bible was written pre enlightenment. You have random pieces of art or conjecture that older more ancient societies had an idea of a spherical world, but this by and large wasn’t accepted until the Middle Ages. 1st century Jews believed people with epilepsy were demon possessed, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess they would have had no qualms accepting flat earth.
Steve Chalke is under-studied if he believes that 'arsenokoites' is a mostly misunderstood term. It directly quotes the two verses in Leviticus that blatantly condemn homosexual practice (18:22 + 20:13). A combination of arsenos (man) and koiten (bed/marriage bed).
The same word 'Koiten' is used in Hebrews 13 to define a 'marriage bed'. So therefore not only does the term condemn the act itself, it also says it does not belong in a marriage bed.
I’m confused that a verse that supposedly condemns homosexuality only includes one gender, when Leviticus 18:23 when condemning beastiality refers to both genders.
@@jasonwood3377 Because the bible is a sexist, misogynistic, patriarchal book that treats women like property.
Tony Garner All society was patriarchal and sexist back then, it’s not the point I’m making though, a lot (by no means all) of Christians use Leviticus as a blanket condemnation of homosexuality, only it can’t because of the next verse, I’ve yet to hear anywhere near a plausible reason as to why.
Jason Wood NO...not ALL society was patriarchal and sexist back then. Maybe all “western society.” The Mosul of China, Bribri of Costa Rica, Umoja of Kenya, Minangkabau of Indonesia and the Akan of Ghana’s are just a few of the matriarchal societies that existed outside of the Eurocentric patriarchy. My point was that according to the Bible God only cares about homosexual acts between to men, that’s just one reason why the book is sexist and misogynistic. Some scholars would argue that God only condemns sexual intercourse, and more specifically anal sex, between men. But other “immoral” sexual acts are condemned throughout the Bible between a man and a woman as well.
Tony Garner I should’ve rephrased it by all I mean Near Eastern, Roman and Greek, the cultures covered in the bible, and all three were patriarchal and misogynistic, I haven’t made the claim that it justifies it, I’d state that the bible is a reflection of it’s time, it still veers from the original point that I’m making in relation to Leviticus.
The difference between the act of sexual intercourse between man & women and gay sex in the Bible is procreation. Sex in heterosexual marriage couples with contraception ( as preached by the Catholic Church) is not for pleasure. Masturbation is a sin for the same e reason because it is only for pleasure. Most men masturbate - even those who are married. Teenage men feel guilty about masturbation because of what is written in the Bible. Many men watch Ponography & masturbate. It is healthy ( if not indulge in excess ) & NOT sinful because God makes it so pleasurable.
😢😢😢😢😢😢😢this is a very big issue in the church today and one I’ve been battling my whole life with. I’m sorry to say after watching this I’m none the wiser still just as confused and conflicted as ever ❤
Interestingly enough, I looked and you have the same last name as I.
But my purpose for messaging you is that I wanted to help your confusion. Confusion comes from satin.
It’s important to understand that we don’t have all the answers. We can only look in scripture and ask God to reveal things.
We are just called to love each other. We are not God, ultimately he makes decisions on the subject.
Learn about Him everything you can.
For me the scripture that helps and is very simple is Genesis. Where it says- in the beginning God made man and woman. Adam and Eve.
And goes on to mention the story and there children.
From there everyone started running around making up there own ideas that had nothing to do with God.
My Maiden name is Porter
@@heidirojas8388 I hope you've changed your satin bedsheets or your confusion might continue.
I’ve never heard anyone successfully explain what is wrong with being gay
@@keef5 They can't because there's nothing wrong with it.
@@Test_Card_Tomyou’ll see…..
Perhaps in future conversations on this topic you can address the plethora of issues in the Bible which have both components of that which is Norm and that which is exception. Many conservatives like myself only address the norms and rarely if ever discuss exceptions in spite of them actually existing in scripture and in the culture of Old and New Testament times as is also true in modern times.
Steve, we should take the bible seriously when it says that liars AND homosexuals will not have a part in the Kingdom. (21:11)
Adolf Hitler's Missing Testicle ummm... but it was practiced back then.
When liberals insist everything is vague and we can’t be certain they are actually being certain and use that cry as a means of closing down disagreement.
20:40 Doesn't he know that the Bible taught the Earth is a sphere? Also, all this commotion of a flat Earth has only really been around for a couple centuries at best, ancient man is not as stupid as Steve makes them out to be.
@Gré Bou nowhere in the bible does it say the earth is a sphere :-D
Actually, it was the Almagest by Ptolemy that first taught that in the second century. The bible makes no comment.
@Grey Bough Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth (circle = sphere)
@@jjgems5909 circles and spheres are two different things in this case. The earth can be flat and be circular in shape. A disc, for example.
As a Christian I believe that Nothing can Equal because Nothing is Equal to marriage as defined by God himself. There are three points that make marriage between a man and a woman thrice Holy.
1: First man, Adam, and first woman, Eve, were the first Husband and Wife as ordained by God in Genesis chapter 2. Because God created man and woman to be husband and wife, marriage is therefore Holy. Genesis 2:24 says “Therefore shall a man leave his fatherand mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh.”
2: The second reason that marriage between a man and a woman is Holy is that the Lord Jesus Christ considers himself the “Bridegroom” and the Church (Those who are Saved) the “Bride.” In Revelation 19:7 it says “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready.”
3: The third reason why marriage between man and woman is Holy is because the union between a husband and wife is a picture of Salvation. When Adam sinned a connection between him and God was lost. A spiritual connection. However when we accept the Lord Jesus as our Saviour his Holy Spirit spreads his Love abroad in our hearts and reconnects us to God. The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 5:25 says “Husbands love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church, and gave himself for it.”
So as a Believer in the Son of God, I felt compelled to tell you why Nothing can Equal marriage between a man and a woman because Nothing is Equal. However I would also like to draw your attention back to Revelation 19:7 and to the marriage between the Lamb and the Church in Heaven. I am wondering if you could answer a question for me: Will I see you there?
If not then you can only be in one other place in Eternity and that is the Lake of Fire. We read about it in Revelation 20:15 “And Whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire.”
Now see that word “Whosoever?” It is an important word. Jesus himself used it in John 3:16 “For God so loved the World (male, female, rich, poor, Irish, British, African, American, Gay, Straight) that He gave his only begotten Son, that Whosoever believes in him should not perish but have Everlasting Life.”
Everlasting Life does not start when you die but when you Believe. That means that if you repent of your sins and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ that you will have Peace, Joy, and Hope in your heart right now and the Holy Spirit to guide and comfort you, and the marriage feast in Heaven itself. After all the Lord Jesus Christ took your place on that Cross on Calvary because he loved you. I hope, trust and pray that I will see you there in Heaven for the marriage of the Lamb of God and the Church - we who love him, because he first loved us.
One of the things to remember in this discussion is that Paul was an apostle to the gentiles and in the Greek gentile culture homosexuality was the norm, even among converted Christians; whether it was promiscuous or in a so called permanent loving relationship between same sex couples. Paul maintained his Judaic stance based on Biblical law. This same process is taking place today in some factions of the Church. God's word is being reinterpreted to justify a person's sexual lifestyle. The sexual organs of male and female get rid of waste through urine which is sterile. The male organ is made to give and the female to receive in normal sexual intimacy. The other part of the body which gets rid of waste in the form of feces is not sterile and is restricted to the elimination contaminated byproducts of food after is has gone through the digestive process. The nerves which encourage this process work one way and to reverse this for sexual gratification/ excitement is to go against the natural order of God's creation. Steve Chalk means well but he is wrong. I am sure that if he was to meat St Paul, Paul would point again to his clear teaching on homosexuality, and let us remember Paul like Jesus Christ died for what he believed in and in what he tort .
The Gentiles(much better rendered nations) that Paul ministered to were the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel... the Israelites who had been in the Assyrian captivity and dispersed amongst the heathen nations.
We should bless civil partnerships and also have women ministers and do remarry after divorce
My only thing is while you can make a strong argument against two males that same argument can't be really made for two females most cases the bible addresses this it mainly talks about two men burning in lusting or man lying with mankind like womankind yet the same is not applied for the female. But we often think what's good for the goose is good for the gander but it isn't. And again I think the most logical explanation as to woman it doesn't refer to women is because women don't have dicks
I get people will refer to Paul saying women leave the natural use but there's no evidence to what that natural use is. Yet it takes about leaving the natural use of a woman and specifically talking about two men. Then again all the other verses of texts it always referred two men but not two women.
I never understand the kind of love that doses not speak the truth in the long run who are you helping?
People interpret the bible differently in the name of love. Imagine you had to reject the love of someone who you loved so dearly to fit gods mold or what people perceive it to be. It’s an open conversation that we shouldn’t be afraid to discuss. If we discussed and shared more of a community then maybe there wouldn’t be such a split in the church. The Protestant church is made up of different denominations who don’t all exactly believe or stand for the same things. Obviously we get it wrong. We’re only human. No one is free from sin in gods eyes
I was emotionally damaged by the anti homosexual teaching of the church. The problem, as I see it, is that people think that God writes books.
Well, my friend, with all due respect to your history with your church. I think the main problem is that people think God's incapable of effectively relating His will to His creations. In our post-modern age we like to place our flesh/nature/feelings above facts, authority and Truth. So we like to speak for God to make His will align with our wishes/flesh/nature/feelings. But it doesn't work like that. I can say I'm attracted to babies, and I was born this way and can't help it. But it doesn't mean that it is right. Whether one believes the Bible, (which Jesus affirmed) was inspired by God or not. In it God relates atleast 3 things.
We are deficient...the one with homosexual desires as well as the sociopath, or the person with anger issues beating his spouse or getting into fights everywhere, the liar, the constantly fornicating spouse etc etc. Secondly that eternal life is provisioned for everyone of those through anyone who believes and makes active effort to follow him. And thirdly that healing and change and becoming a new creature in Christ possible through the Spirit. This to enable anybody to walk in the spirit rather than the desires of the flesh/nature/feelings.
For some this has meant complete turnaround to heterosexual desire and a life married with kids, for others (to this point) it has meant the dying of sexual urges and passions for the same sex, for other it has meant a mere ability to be celibate. And any kind of sin can be a lifelong weakness for us as Christians, but all is possible through Him.
May people realize the gift of death penalty substitution given in Christ. And may their relationship with God change them through His Spirit. In His own way and own time, by their measure of faith. Amen.
@@shanevan1 Hi Shanevan. No, I don't believe that God wrote a series of books through ancient people. When I look at it's history of formation I see a very human creation. You say, " we like to speak for God and make his will"...etc.. It is christians that like to speak for God. I just speak for myself and my understanding of life.
Well, fair enough. I do believe so, mainly because of its history, formation, and unparalleled preservation, ofcourse the historical person of Jesus Christ and its content. Which time and time again proves itself, not only personally and experientially in my life but also through the emperical sciences and history.
But I ave noticed your stance is a common trend. And I believe mainly because if God's main way of communicating to our generation doesn't hold weight and authority there is a sense of freedom to basically be our own definers of wrong and right, good and evil etc. It has been the shift since the end of the 19th century and the proclamation of God's "death" by Nietzsche. We could blame the Christians (and the ancient Jews) for them "speaking for God" but indeed it all hangs on the question if God has been capable of communicating to mankind in the past. For a plethora of reasons I'd say the scriptures could be trusted. Archeologically, and historically, prophetically it has proven itself to be just as sound as its transformational power. But yea it would be eassier to just discount it as some ancient collection of wisdom...so I understand. It seems liberating, but it really isn't. But that's something for everyone to find out for themselves I guess.
God bless in your journey bro.
@@shanevan1 Amen...Very well versed...These people search out teachers that condone their behavior not rectify it and sadly, today, there are so many false shepherds such as this person...Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
As a Christian I want to say I am so sorry you were hurt.
Steve Chalke unfortunately is not a Christian, he is a humanitarian. He has no sense of Gods holiness, His justice, love, mercy, wrath & grace. He has no concept of what God says about the heart and nature of mankind and our standing before a righteous & holy God! He simply does not understand the Gospel or has simply rejected the Gospel message for a more palatable gospel of inclusivity! This is a false Gospel. We should keep Steve Chalke in our prayers for his heart to be softened to receive and believe the true Gospel to the Glory of GOD the Father, through the Son and in the power of the Holy Spirit! 🙌🏾
Craig, I suggest that you learn the difference between a humanitarian and a humanist ... and of course you don't really know that what you say about Steve Chalke is true. WHY do you lie and have the audacity to do it in Jesus Name when you don't have any idea what you are talking about?
Such vitriol is not a great way to Win Friends and Influence People. Please stop playing God.
I really love that Andrew doesn't let Steve worm his way out of those cheap shots.
Keep up the good fight Steve Chalke!
Andrew - Amen!
Steve - doesn't seem to me to be interpreting the Bible accurately, but rather trying to make it sound nicer to those who don't want to obey it!
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
One man was speaking from emotion about GOD, the other was speaking from the Bible about GOD.
Why is the Bible completely without fault?
@@jeffreyhosman6653 Because God is perfect.
@@user-cu3xn4xj3i The bible is not God. To ascribe the attributes of God to a book is idolatry. The bible isn't omnipotent, omnipresent, or perfect. The Word of God as we have it has always been the Word as perceived by men.
To all homosexual guys and lesbians. The Chistian life, led of course by Jesus continues, to grow and evolve. Jesus left the door open to us. He came to fulfill the Law. By that He removed all Old Testament restrictions. You are loved by God and my brothers and sisters in Christ. You are NOT rejected by Christ. By the way, I'm straight.
“Well, I don’t do my theology on Wikipedia.” Brutal. Absolutely brutal.
Hi Justin. Hope you and your family are well and safe in England. Thanks for an interesting debate. Well done Andrew for your sound Biblical stance and robust theology. Unfortunately, Steve’s theology is badly flawed and sadly he is in an influential position teaching this dangerous stuff to our brothers and sisters in Christ. I pray that God will guide and teach/correct him. And may God keep you all safe and give you his peace. Brother Mike in Tasmania
The Love That Dares To Speak Its Name
By James Kirkup
As they took him from the cross
I, the centurion, took him in my arms-
the tough lean body
of a man no longer young,
beardless, breathless,
but well hung.
He was still warm.
While they prepared the tomb
I kept guard over him.
His mother and the Magdalen
had gone to fetch clean linen
to shroud his nakedness.
I was alone with him.
For the last time
I kissed his mouth. My tongue
found his, bitter with death.
I licked his wound-
the blood was harsh
For the last time
I laid my lips around the tip
of that great cock, the instrument
of our salvation, our eternal joy.
The shaft, still throbbed, anointed
with death's final ejaculation
I knew he'd had it off with other men-
with Herod's guards, with Pontius Pilate,
With John the Baptist, with Paul of Tarsus
with foxy Judas, a great kisser, with
the rest of the Twelve, together and apart.
He loved all men, body, soul and spirit. - even me.
So now I took off my uniform, and, naked,
lay together with him in his desolation,
caressing every shadow of his cooling flesh,
hugging him and trying to warm him back to life.
Slowly the fire in his thighs went out,
while I grew hotter with unearthly love.
It was the only way I knew to speak our love's proud name,
to tell him of my long devotion, my desire, my dread-
something we had never talked about. My spear, wet with blood,
his dear, broken body all open wounds,
and in each wound his side, his back,
his mouth - I came and came and came
as if each coming was my last.
And then the miracle possessed us.
I felt him enter into me, and fiercely spend
his spirit's finbal seed within my hole, my soul,
pulse upon pulse, unto the ends of the earth-
he crucified me with him into kingdom come.
-This is the passionate and blissful crucifixion
same-sex lovers suffer, patiently and gladly.
They inflict these loving injuries of joy and grace
one upon the other, till they dies of lust and pain
within the horny paradise of one another's limbs,
with one voice cry to heaven in a last divine release.
Then lie long together, peacefully entwined, with hope
of resurrection, as we did, on that green hill far away.
But before we rose again, they came and took him from me.
They knew not what we had done, but felt
no shame or anger. Rather they were glad for us,
and blessed us, as would he, who loved all men.
And after three long, lonely days, like years,
in which I roamed the gardens of my grief
seeking for him, my one friend who had gone from me,
he rose from sleep, at dawn, and showed himself to me before
all others. And took me to him with
the love that now forever dares to speak its name.
Do wish Steve Chalke would stop talking over Andrew and give him the same respect Andrew is affording him. Whatever the discussion he’s a poor debater and comes across rude.
Davey Murphy I have listened to all of these four discussions, and to my perception, Steve in no way speaks down to Andrew. In fact in the first session I heard it appeared to be the other way round,, while now they seem to show fairly equal respect. I think we Christians tend to react very strongly when we hear views that conflict with our own long-standing cherished ways of thinking.
Weird - I though the exact opposite. That Andrew was dominating the conversation - refusing to let Steve reenter or counter any of his points. At points when he tried Andrew very abruptly said "NO - WAIT".
Where can I get the other articles or videos?
Click on where it says "Premier Unbelievable?" beneath the video then check either the Playlists or search within the list of Videos.
I came to Church as a sinner and I hope that Jesus could change me.
he does change homophobics
*1CORINTHIAN 6:9-17*
*Know this it is about Repentance*
*and without this you will Never enter into Gods Rest*
A lot of homosexual activists read, know and object to the verses of the bible that deals with homosexuality. I remember Virginia Mollenkott who was an advisor to the New International Version of the bible saying she wanted to soften the verses that deals with homosexuality.
Whatever doctrine you believe the bible supports, you must be able to positively show that it's a biblical teaching. For example that there are verses that teach you could have sexual relationships with anything other the men with women.
I am a bit confused, and I gathered what I could from both sides of the debate.. so is same-sex couples having sex a sin? Or what? Is it a sin because they are together as homosexuals or not? And what if they were not married?
Steve Chalke is reckless and selfish in his use/abuse of Scripture.
He has openly lied about the vocabulary in Paul’s writings.
"they aren't in that list in romans chapter 1" .... are you sure about that?
You're making up your own God to suit your sins
It’s fascinating that the topic is “what does the scripture say” but there are no bibles there to reference, and few scriptures quoted to make either argument, simply two men hovering with their experience and interpretation of the scripture.
Everything Steve is claiming is completely irrelevant. He's trying to affirm Christ into an emotional opinion of relationships, not an objective opinion on scripture. His countless logical fallacies, and attempt to indulge in this hedonistic, "If it feels good do it, so long as you're not hurting anyone ideology" is completely unbecoming of a minister. This is elementary. There is no discussion here. Here's a man with facts, and a man with an emotional opinion. It's intellectually dishonest to focus on mischaracterizations, in order to sway the debate. The flat earth analogy is an argument a child would make, not an educated man of God. This is embarrassing to watch.
A young earth analogy would have been more appropriate
Great point Andrew makes at the end re: jumping to conclusions way off the middle ground.
But at 18.15 - is he saying he really hopes that no church prays for healing where homosexuality is concerned or treats it like there might be a spiritual component involved?? If so, I'm surprised .. 🤷♀️
Thank God for Andrew Wilson.
Consensus is not a good argument at all (perhaps as a secondary by the way reference of people who agree). Exegesis of the text leads us to a clear understanding that homosexuality is clearly forbidden and contrary to nature. Chalke has nothing bar anecdotes. 1 Cor 6:9-11. Plus there is not one positive reference to homosexuality in the Bible. They have the say the Bible is silent on this issue, when it's clearly not. What next? Is bestiality wrong? You could use the same argumentation that Chalke is using here to justify anything, including paedophila, bestiality etc.
Two minutes in the debate and the host has not stop talking. Wow
The construct of homophobia and the psychometric properties of instruments purporting to measure homophobia are critically evaluated. The history of the term and its various definitions are briefly reviewed. We conclude that existing measures of homophobia have been inadequately psychometrically evaluated and therefore it is not clear whether currently this construct can be accurately measured. It is also concluded that the construct of homophobia, as it is usually used, makes an illegitimately pejorative evaluation of certain open and debatable value positions, much like the former disease construct of homosexuality. Finally, proposals for theory development and construct definition in the domain of reactions to homosexuals and homosexuality are provided.
The only relationship that includes sex that is mentioned and blessed in the Bible is marriage...marriage is between a man and a woman as described by Jesus in the NT and the Father in the Hebrew scripture.
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Marriage in the Bible isn't between a man and a woman. Marriage in the Bible is often between a man, his wife, his concubines, the women he has bought or from war. This is why I don't think the Bible is a good standard for marriage. A good standard for marriage is a legal contract between two consenting adults.
@@malirk read 1 corinthen 7:2 . it states clear ,
@@tihiandrew The Bible isn't clear though. You referred me to the words of Paul to the Church in Corinth. I usually look to what Jesus said and he wasn't clear regarding LGBTQQIA relationships. We do however see the following in the Bible:
King Solomon with 700 concubines
Fathers selling their daughters
Men taking additional wives
Captured women from countries becoming additional wives
Men sleeping with their servants to have children because their wives can't
Overall, the Biblical marriage is not one I want in America today. I prefer marriage where adults can consent to be in the marriage.
@@malirk Mathew 19: 1-10 is clear enough for me , God intented one man with one woman from the beginning . people try to change this .
The reason the mindset is changing is because the Bible has been changed. The problem is that "the church" has allowed the culture to effect their doctrine and beliefs and not stood firm on the Word of God. Steve Chalke obviously doesn't believe in the whole council of God, he (and many) pick and chose they want to believe. I also heard, very clearly, that he said "my gospel", that speaks volumes.
It is such a shame that the people that were talking about being abused by the church were possibly treated so badly. Consider, however, so often that people in our modern society cannot view correction as anything but hurtful.....and the Proverbs are clear that correction is a good thing. As far as the ones that were truly mistreated, those that mistreated them are wrong, period. Also consider, Chalke's position, that the Bible is wrong about this, is equally hurting these people. Allowing them to remain in their sinful relationships and condone their actions isn't loving at all.
"The devil cites scripture for his own purpose" - Shakespeare
It was “Take it seriously Andrew” for me
Matt. 7:22,23;
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity”
I would expect that none of the people in the video support working iniquity.
The question is whether gay relationships are right or wrong. First prove they're wrong, then you can claim that God is opposed to them, not before.
@@MusicalRaichu The Love that you have for the person is genuine, but God ask us to deny our flesh in a daily. There’s multiple scriptures that talk about sexual immortality. Sexual immorality is any sexual relationship outside of the biblical marriage of Man and woman. That means that anything else that doesn’t look or function exactly the same is not in Gods standard. Therefore, it is immoral Leviticus 20: 10-16, Hebrews 13:4 , Romans 1: 27-28 , 1 Corinthians 7 : 1 - 2, 1 Corinthians 6:18, etc. there’s so many more verses that again explain Gods standard and again explain what isn’t Gods standard.
@@ozzyb6595 we don't practice "biblical marriage" anymore as we now in the west consider it immoral and degrading. since some time in the middle ages, the church started insisting that a woman has to give her consent, and for the last couple of centuries, marriage has primarily been for romantic reasons. furthermore, we no longer allow concubines as in modern times we consider it adultery. we've even changed the concept of adultery, like it's now adultery for a married man or woman to go to a prostitoot.
the idea that secs was only for a man and woman in marriage is one invented by christians in early centuries and we have inherited the belief. protestants changed a few things since then
1 clergy can now get married too
2 you can do it for pleasure i.e. not only for reproduction as they believed then
3 more recently we understand saimsecs acts as intrinsically wrong, not wrong because they're for pleasure and not reproduction.
the bible never says what you claim. it's all a misinterpretation imposed on the text. you need to have a look at the quotes you gave me more carefully as i think you may have misunderstood them.
@@MusicalRaichu yeah the new testaments talks about how we should be married to 1 wife. God abolished multiple wives back in Moses time. So biblical marriage in regards to how God left it in the New Testament isn’t practice like it use to be. I’ll agree with you on that much. Also there’s no misinterpretation. I’m literally showing you Gods standards. And if you chose to ignore it to push your modern day view of how it should be is honestly between you and God at that point. Only 1 will be right. No man is right.
@@ozzyb6595 alas there is a lot of misinterpretation.
for one thing, i can't see anywhere where premarital lovemaking is said to be wrong. there is a word porneia or something whose meaning is debated but there's no proof it meant prematerial thingy. but my point here isn't to promote that sort of thing anyway - i'd rather leave that issue to people's own conscience.
the more serious issue is the terrible harm done to the gay community by our beliefs that are based on very blatant misinterpretation. there is no statement in the bible that says "all saimsecs acts are intrinsically wrong". that's something we've read into what the bible says in modern times.
even worse is the idea that same-secs attraction is a sin people have to repent from . thank goodness many a leaving that idea behind. but even so, i haven't seen any sincere repentance and attempts at restitution for the horrific damage that idea has done. and there are some who still cling to it.
Great debate - keep on keeping on!!
What we see here is a clear example of the “love, accept and respect everyone and everything”-crowd constantly interrupting.
Scripture seems clear enough
Since 1946
A lesson for us all...I remember Steve Chalke being the "evangelical poster boy" in the 1990s and put on a pedastool. NEVER do this to ANY preacher or church leader, or "Christian celebrities" either (remember Jonathan Edwards?) Only GOD is to be trusted 100%...sinful man, yes even the greatest of preachers, can fall away.
What about cliff Richard is he really a Christian
Genesis 5:2 Male and female created he them. It is very clear and simple not complicated at all.
Galatians 3:28 is pretty clear too
All “love” does not equate to “Love” in the Biblical sense.
Agape - God’s unconditional love
Sturgi - Love within a family
Phileo - Brotherly love
Eros - Sexual love
When we deny God’s design for Eros, in Genesis 2:24, then our own passions rule the show and people believe a lie.
God expects and administers transformation as we yield to Christ, the Pearl we must give up everything for. Best point made.
@@madeofstars6857 its been too long for me to remember the conversation but the transformation and healing we all need is universally found as we each receive Christ into our hearts. The Body of course, meaning the people in the congregation, must also administer Christs love to everyone who enters. I wouldn't even want to be still sleeping with my boyfriend or still smoking dope after being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Jesus' love is worth giving it all up for. Like I said, He's the Pearl of great price. Which means we have to sell everything to buy the field where its buried. That may sound simplistic to you but its the simple truth that confounds the wise of this fallen world. Also, I'm not catholic so I don't believe celibacy is a law for ministers. Paul just infers its much easier to be focused without being married, but as you may or may not know, Peter was married.
Can we just ignore parts of the Bible that we don't agree with? Can the Romans Chapter 1 be any more clear on this? Jesus calls us not just to believe but to be born again.
Steve Chalke needs to read the king James bible so he can include the real reason for homosexuality rather than presenting 3 strawman arguments. the truth is God has handed them over to a reprobate mind and they cannot be saved 👍 glad u announced where your church is a will avoid you like the plague Steve Chalke I find it very hard to entertain the idea that you are even saved.
Correct! I've been saying that they are being turned over to a reprobate mind.
Also, it's funny how he says being promiscuous will destroy you (which he is correct), but he's ok with homosexual anal sex as long as it's monogamous. As if anal sex is ok. NOT. It's not even ok with normal heterosexual.
You can almost tell who has a more Christ like opinion with their character in this short video.
Oasis church man is oppositional, interrupting, doesn’t listen but just waits to disagree, angry, patronising.
the other guy is measured, sober, articulate, gentle and assertive.
One day Christ will come back and judge these false teachers - hallelujah but how terrifying for them. We can only keep speaking truth to comprise and error and praying
It's nice to hear what Steve thinks. Most Christians that I know agree with him; it feels like it's only the more strict ones that continue to be homophobic. It's so easy for someone who's straight to say gay people should stop having sex when they (the straight people) won't. :)
@J. Russell You sound like a Pharisee placing a burden upon someone else that you yourself are not willing to bare.
If you are straight and having sex outside of marriage they are to stop as well. All unnatural and unmarried and extra marital sex is to be repented of.
@@anthonybarber3872 Only if you believe in that religion. If not, it'd be like repenting to Santa Claus.
@@Paul2377 It's true whether you believe in God or not.
Hebrew 13:4 let marriage be held in honor above all, and let the marriage be undefiled. Or God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous..... There are a hundred verses about marriage. God blesses only one kind of Union between man and woman.
Mr. Rogers. I cant find your comment but suffice it to say God's thoughts are so far above and beyond our greatest thoughts that its worth submitting to them and acting on them in faith that they are wiser and truer than our logic and menial understanding of the bigger picture.
Indeed,but I dont believe God condemns all expressions of homosexuality per se-love is love regardless of gender,and isn't condemned in scripture.
@@keithrogers4170 you are saying self love isn't condemned in scripture? Lol. Self love is self centered and that's exactly the opposite of what Christ exemplified snd taught. We naturally love ourselves snd take care of ourselves first so therefore the admonition to love our neighbor as ourselves but have you ever tried to do that? It takes God's love in us to be that selfless. At least it does for me.
@@kcjones44 Sorry ...that was actually a typo!..predictive text inserted "per self love"..when I meant to say "per se".
To be honest though,healthy self-love isnt a sin,unless it becomes egotistical vanity or pride.
The lord does instruct others "to love others as we love ourselves"...so he assumes,and expects us to love ourselves(ie honestly appreciate and care for ourselves)..and he doesnt say this is a sin.After all,if he dont love ourselves,how can we honestly love others?
@@keithrogers4170 agreed!
The three different approaches he talked about that Christian's have toward homosexualiy:
1. It's a demon that needs to be cast out
2. It's something that needs healing
3. It's ok just don't act on it
I think each person's sexuality is different, even each person's homosexuality. So it doesn't make sense to apply a template of one answer is always true. I find God's ways are not so cookie cutter. We need to listen to each person's individual needs and not think we already have the solution.
Do you want to get as close to what the original authors of the New Testament thought of it? Simply look up letters written by the early church fathers. Some clearly speak about what was meant about it in 1st century Christianity. And folks, it hasn’t changed.
This is an easy question to answer: Yes.
wth!? where does "scripture forbid gay relationships"?
The original text say nothing about it. The original text point towards pedophilia and the original text point towards male prostitution. Not homosexual relationship marriages. People of the church are absolutely brainwashed because they think that the Bible is perfectly intact. When you start listening to scholars and you start studying the Greek and hebrew, you'll see that humanity has been had by a bunch of evil criminals hiding the truth from us while shoving religion down your throat and making you obey everything they say. Better wake up
@@Jay_Kayy lol 😂 the original texts condemn it. This isn’t even up for debate.
@@ClayRuffner really? You want to talk to some of the leading scholars of the new testament? They'll tell you exactly what's being said. Why do you think we have all these different translations and 40,000 different denominations? Everybody claims to know the truth right? Who's right and who's wrong? Who's to say the Bible wasn't manipulated to control the masses? To me religion is such a good thing to use because people are scared into accepting Christ and obey like good little sheep blindly. No the Bible was referencing to prostitution of male children, the older aggressive men would play with them as they would a woman. Pedophilia was a big problem back then. Trust and believe that when you look at the Greek and Hebrew that's what this points towards. You can't deny that one bit. Their culture was way different than ours is now. Homosexual and this word in particular never even existed till the 1800s. So there's a lot of adding and taking away that happens with Bible translations which causes a lot of confusion, I can point towards tons of contradictions due to everybody's own interpretation of scripture, it's a big mess. And it needs to be settled. God asked you to love one another so do it.
@@Jay_Kayy You are wrong. Repent and read the Bible. It’s super clear.
Kinda disappointed that Steve didn’t make a stronger biblical case.
@Matt Sure. But it would have been stronger, especially in the eyes of otherwise unconvinced conservative folks, if he had.
@Matt and he did, yet Steve said, you’re wrong.
It seems Steve is using the world's morality against that of the holy spirit. These stories of very human falures tug at the heart but that still does not make it right.
The bible is so clear on this issue that it cannot be misunderstood... old testament or new , the Word is clear.
It has nothing to do with committed relationships and everything to do with the act...men who lie with men or women with women are committing a sin in GODs eyes and regardless what I think or you think it is only HIS opinion that counts.
These are the last days and time is running out!
Love and pray for the sinner but hate the sin
Grace and peace to all
Gilly wife of Mark
Jesus made it very clear....He loves those who obey His commandments!
Any person who says they love God and don't obey, John calls a liar, they walk in darkness, and the truth is not in them!
Adam was sentenced to death for one sin. We lose sight of how grievous sin is to the Father and the price that was paid to atone for our sins.
And don’t forget if we love Jesus we’ll obey his commands! John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands.”
@Matt
Apply what exactly?
@Matt
You'll have to forgive me. I haven't watched this video in 5 months. I don't remember it specifically. However, I do remember that the older man is very liberal in his biblical exegesis and incorrect in his application. Based on my comment, I believe he spoke in a way that says God loves everyone. Hence why I posted what I did, because he would be incorrect.
Other than that, I don't know what you're trying to get at.
God does NOT kill his children. He sent Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden because it is a spiritual place, and they are physical beings. If they stayed there, they would’ve died.
@@adamdab5388
That's nonsense. There is no text to support that Eden was spiritual. In fact the scriptures support it was a physical place, naming rivers and animals. You should read Gen 1 and 2 again.