Progressive vs. Evangelical: A Dialogue for Clarity
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- What are the key differences between evangelical Christianity and Progressive Christianity? How do they uniquely approach key issues like the nature of Scripture, the person of Jesus, and relationships? In this video, I talk with pastor/author Colby Martin about these issues and more.
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I just want to give Colby a big hug after watching this. I was a progressive for 20 years and by the grace of God he brought me back to a historic Christian faith 2 years ago. 20 years of self idolatry and making God into an image I deemed worthy in regards to the worlds ever changing standards. It was exhausting and I have so much peace now that I’m back home. Praying that whatever you are seeking Colby - which ultimately is THE truth- you will find it. Good work Sean- always appreciate your approach and respect to those you may not agree with 👊🏾
May The Lord be praised!!!
Danielle Graves,
Sorry to hear - the so called historical Christian faith is an absolute disaster - filled with lies including mariolatry, papal authority, apostolic succession, transubstatiation, denial of the man Christ Jesus and all manner of filth and corruption.
I'm sorry to hear of this tragedy that's happened to your life - it may be that God will be gracious by reaching out to you and setting you free.... And restore you back to Christ.
@@greglogan7706 praying for you too Greg ❤️
@@jesusislord9447 all glory to God ❤️
I did almost the exact opposite and have found preachers, teachers and learned folks who are able to help guide me. I’m we are losing people from Jesus because of this type of hateful dogma and the inability to believe in change and science
Colby essentially said he's uncertain whether Jesus rose from the dead. That's a core tenet of the gospel, for if Jesus didn't resurrect it means He didn't defeat death nor atoned for our sins, leaving us without a hope of salvation. There is no point in being a Christian if you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus.
Paul said as such.
Yeah I also noticed that too. I’m so used to knowing that Jesus conquered death that when Colby said it I couldn’t believe my ears. I thought my mind was playing tricks on me. So it’s shocking that he actually did said that 🤯
Goes to show that “progressive Christianity” is just luke warm Christians.
What I think is kind of odd is the list of things he did see as important to the movement from his perspective, (egalitarianism, LGBTQ issues, attitude towards science and the recognition of white supremacy) are very different from the issues I would see as most important (the meaning of the Deity of Christ and the confidence in the resurrection of Jesus); and I suspect Sean feels the same way.
I think actually if we are looking at where the two movements come from, it might be better to think about them as two different understandings of what is important. Some people lump themselves with "progressives" because they see the same things progressives do as important; some people lump themselves with "evangelicals" because they see the same things as important as evangelicals.
Some may have a "progressive" understanding of the four issues Colby highlighted but don't want to be called "progressive"; because they don't want to be lumped with Colby's views on the Trinity (which they see as more important).
Similarly, someone may agree fully with Sean on the Trinity and the Resurrection but they don't want to be called "evangelical" because they see solidarity on social justice issues as more important, and they see large parts of evangelicalism as undermining that.
Hearing Mr Colby, I feel for him, Jesus is like a good teacher who taught us how we should live. For him, Jesus' crucifixion sounds meaningless.
I grew up Roman Catholic but after studying the life of Jesus, I had to change to Evangelical. When we focus on what "we do" and we try to fix the world putting social justice as the most important thing a Christian should do, we are minimizing the atonement of Christ. Believing in Jesus' Death and Resurrection will unite us to Him through the Holy Spirit and will sanctify us. But all glory should be to God.
In other words, to put social justice as the center of Christianity is man centered and steals away the glory of Jesus. The center of Christianity is Jesus. Period
As a progressive Christian, I HOPE that Jesus bodily rose from the dead and that his grave was empty. Unfortunately, the evidence we have is not strong enough to establish that conclusion. I read lots of stuff from apologists such as William Lane Craig and Mike Licona and Sceptics such as Bart Ehrman etc. and I don't think that either side was able to reasonably prove that they are right.
By the way, I agree with Paul that if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, Christianity has no meaning so that I'd give up my hope if it could be shown that the resurrection never occurred.
I love both of these men. I see hurt and confusion in Colbys heart and eyes. I pray he continues his journey and doesn't give up on the true living Jesus . Truth does exist.
The sad part he is pastoring a church.
He’d change his mind quicker without condescending comments like these, right?
@@weirdwilliam8500 how is my comment condescending??
@@jesusistheway83 Clearly , you don’t understand my point because you’re secretly so insecure, hurt, and confused about your own beliefs.
See what I did there?
@@weirdwilliam8500 I see what you did there. But that is no where near what my comment was like. My comment was based out of love for God and love for both of these men. What is wrong with praying for their journey with Jesus, and after an hour plus hearing someone talk seeing hurt ?
I pray we all have compassion and understanding no matter what side we are on. I'm on Jesus's side.
This is why it's important we read our bibles brothers and sisters so we cannot be misled and test the spirits, but as Sean fantastically demonstrated we must listen with patience and grace. This means more than winning any intellectual argument with someone or showing how much you know theology. Most testimonies I've listened to when they've come to Christ is because of a particular Christians actions rather than their words. We should all pray for Colby that he finds his trust in Jesus again.
Well said!
Colby struggles answering simple questions with simple answers. That alone is a big sign
If you belong to the family regardless of your beliefs, then why do you need to ask questions regarding your beliefs? Colby martin contradicts himself in this interview multiple times. 19:05
Why?
@Xiaoran Meng
You listened to yourself rather than listened to Colby
I think what you see as "simple questions" he doesn't see as "simple," and that's fundamentally the difference between perspectives here. To Sean, truth seems more black and white and the only thing that matters at the end of the day is the intellectual question: are the claims true? To Colby, the truth of a belief is irrelevant if people are harmed by those telling it.
@@Anthony-pq4vr This.
Sean, your clarity explaining the truth is phenomenal! ✝️ My faith was built up just listening to you!✝️
Oh come on - all Sean did was regurgitate standard evangelical memes...how hard is that???? THAT built your faith??? That is NOT faith - that is just human efforts creating human tradition.
I think you have a LOT more capability than this.
@@greglogan7706 really?...LOL🤣
I am grateful to Sean McDowell for the invite of Colby Martin. Appreciate it. I lean in between liberal and Conservative Christianity so I love a balanced conversation that takes into consideration all points of view as I explore my relationship with Christ. In other words I love an honest conversation.
Me too. Glad it was helpful!
@@SeanMcDowell Dr. Sean McDowell, really enjoyed this interview found it very interesting. Especially amusing watching you bite your tongue when Colby Martin said things that I'm sure we're deliberately provocative!
I did want to pick you up on one point - when you described YEC believers ad having a warfare attitude towards science. That is unfair and inaccurate. Sure there's a fringe who are also flat earther anti vaxxers, but most YEC believers love science. I know many who are PhD scientists, I'm related to one.
A more accurate summary of a YEC view is that we disagree with the mainstream scientific community on the interpretation of certain aspects of scientific data. We believe their materialist worldview has lead them to interpret the data in a certain way, and that same data can actually interpreted differently. Keep up the good work!
Sean McDowell, you are truly a special person. These shows and conversations have become a great help to me as I come back to the LORD, repent, and find grace in the cross and the word of GOD. You ask great questions of experts on relevant topics facing the Church. Often involving battle zone topics and the modern assault on the Church, on the Faith. You have gift. God bless you, you seem to have been given some special wisdom and love on top of all your hard work snd great learning. Love and widom....on top of great learning...generosity to share all of it.....courage to face the most difficult topics with people of opposing views....I don't know Sean, what would you say to a man like that? God bless you kiddo, much love and admiration.
Colby is right about belonging. How can a believer grow in an environment of "it's my way or the highway "? I've experienced some of what Colby went through but I'm not a progressive. I ask God for help in loving others, I let go of things that are less important, and trust that God will work things out on HIS timing. I think Sean was a good example of being gentle. Thanks!
When you speak of “it’s my way or the highway,” are you speaking from the perspective of the congregation or from God? Because it really is God’s way or the highway. You don’t have to like it, but the truth offends.
I really enjoyed listening to this discussion. I probably will listen to it again in order to better understand some of Colby's views.
I went through my own "questioning of God" in my life and I went in some dark areas in my life. I am very thankful that my father always thought me that God is big enough for my questions and doubts.
Now I am very much an evangelical Christian and do not agree with Colby's views I really appreciate his opinions and his willingness to have this discussion knowing that many would not agree with him. We need more of these cordial conversations where we can have respectful conversations.
Thank you both for this interview.
Returning to an abusive spouse is a good analogy. The spiritual abuse that is real needs to be acknowledge in today’s church and Christian communities. It’s a huge issue in need of repentance. Christians who are shaken up about the “church” never being the same need to realize, this . is . Why!!!
It's the "answers" as Colby says, that is the issue. It's not so much that the answers are wrong, but more so that people just don't like them. The message of Christ is offensive
Who decides what the message of prices?
@@greglogan7706 Jesus
What is offensive about being pardoned from sin?
@@carolinepowers9694 I can't speak for Kenny but I think the statement "The message of Christ is offensive" refers to how people living by the flesh will find it offensive because as you know living in the flesh is in total contradiction to living by the Spirit.
@@carolinepowers9694 first having to admit you are a sinner and not righteous.
Hey Sean, thanks for modeling what it looks like to have a civil conversation, especially with someone we disagree with. I found it very challenging when Colby spoke because while his beliefs seem to be under the Christian umbrella, when he explained them I hard a real hard time grasping that his beliefs are Christian. I ask God we can all continue to learn how to hold conversations to seek to better understand people and love them as God loves them, and also hope we can receive God’s love through the people in our lives who love us too.
Who decides what Christianity is?
@@greglogan7706 Christ. It’s in the name so it’s easy to remember
@@greglogan7706, that’s a great question. As the person in the comment below put it, simplest way, Christ. When we start deciding what is good and bad about our Christian faith, we have left the original and mad e something new. I think this would be a great video for Sean to make sometime to answer your question.
Thanks Sean for being so kind and respectful but still bringing truth to this much needed conversation 🙏
This is a wonderful interview. Thank you Sean for asking such wonderful questions and being a great example of Christ for us all!
Highly appreciate this open conversation!!! May the name of our Lord Jesus continue prevailing!!! I’m thankful for this man to be brought to my attention so that I can pray for him.
Thank you for the civil conversation. It was great for Colby to say yes and to join the discussion. It has really shown some real distinctions between the view of Scripture, the person of Christ, and whether or not we have a need for a Savior. We can all pray for our nation, and the leaders in our churches, and our government. Wow.
Sean I really like how you pressed this man. Great job! I pray for Colby and the people he is leading a stray. Please Sean follow up with a debate with Colby.
This was truly painful to watch, I can see the anguish Colby is going through. It makes me so sad that he can't seem to have any certainty about God, Jesus, the Bible, or really anything.
No one can. The experience of certainty is merely a facade when there’s no tangible proof. When people gain the power to think for themselves their former certainty in their faith reveals its own true agenda- control.
People who are certain can be dangerous given enough power. Look at Islamic State. Doubt is ok. It's how we learn.
@@mads597 This is a false statement. I have the ability to think for myself. I am not in a church, but I have faith. Faith that I don't impose on anyone else. So where is the control?
I appreciate your comments Kristina. I feel some of the folks who replied to you here kind of miss the point of Christianity...you can be certain about God, have seasons of doubt, faithfully attend a Bible believing church and not want to control everyone else’s lives. We are in a battle with spiritual forces, not with flesh and blood.
This is what struck me too. In pursuing what he sees as love and in looking for a truth compatible with his understanding and satisfaction, he has become unconfident in truths -- in exchange for loyalty to principles, like inclusivity. I would not want to have to be uncertain about key points of the thing I'm trusting to save me. Principles like inclusivity cannot and will not save. Even love, not rooted and grounded in the true God, is insufficient to save. Ultimately belief saves, and true belief leads directly to passionate love for God and others.
Such a great conversation! So beautiful to see two people discussing serious topics so respectfully and intelligently - thank you so much!
I am disturbed in my spirit that the term “Christian” is applied to broadly to cover those that are very unchristian. Being in a EXCLUSIVE RELATIONSHIP with our God is very different from a religion!
Is it though? I mean christianity has unique qualities for sure but for exaple the norse mythology worked as a kind of relationship between gods and men. People would pray and ask certain god for help or guidance and if the god didn't answer that person would stop and have relationship with another god. That seems like more of a two way stream or more like a relationship than even christianity. The gods and men were in constant connection with each other.
For me personally progressive Christianity comes off as patronizing. As a woman, who is mixed, grew up dirt poor, daughter of an immigrant, the qualification of my “pain” being assigned more meaning than a straight, white male resounds as hollow and superficial. The world has and always has been filled with evil and pain regardless of ethnicity, socioeconomic status, sexuality. I don’t need someone to qualify my pain. Interesting enough the pervasiveness of progressive theology that I can look back on a recognize at churches I attended throughout life is what almost drove me from church.
You’re right, Hanna, I was generalizing about the experiences of minorities in the church, and (with regards to gender) the experience of many women who exist with patriarchal religious structures. But that does not mean all women have the same experience. Thanks fir sharing your perspective here.
@@mrcolbymartin you seem to have a sincere heart for people but it also seems that due to your desire to love others that you have chosen to view Christianity through your own lens versus the lens of scripture as the authority. That’s the problem with subjective realities... who is the ultimate authority on morality? Do our feelings and pain trump all or are we all fallen, sinful and undeserving of Gods grace as forgiveness? Progressive Christianity has been a stumbling block for so many that I know that are searching for Jesus but being fed social justice according to the culture of today. If the goalpost is always moving then why even try?
Wow. I really appreciate both of your thoughtful comments here.@hanna
@@mrcolbymartin
Hey Colby - Thanks for SAYING PLENTY - in a very thoughtful and HONEST manner - as opposed to the religious gibberish of your adversaries.
May I encourage you to adjust one matter - I would drop the adjective "progressive" - it is silly. There are only Christians and non-Christians - truth and non-truth.
Evangelicals OTOH are a whole separate dish - easily identified by their certainty about that which they know absolutely nothing - thinking because they are literate they know something - yet all have even absolutely contradictory opinions. This is all just plain DISHONEST on in the whole... which perfectly characterizes evangelicalism.
Anyway - you will have a stronger case dropping the silly label that THEY labeled you with - but you unfortunately accepted.
@@mrcolbymartin The patriarchy lol.... I guess God didn't see that one coming when He created the authority structures of the home. Humanism sets on the throne of God exalting itself as God. Do you not know this is what animates you?
Echo Sean: Thank you Colby for your openness and willingness to engage in the conversation. I think this was a respectful conversation about trying to understand the perspective.
I’ve never heard a man say so much yet say nothing at all.
"you say it best... when you say nothing at all."
@@mrcolbymartin, Praying for you. I appreciate you willing to engage.. This tells me that God is at work, otherwise this dialogue would not have happened. May God give you his Holy Spirit, so that you can believe in Him. May the Holy Spirit who is truth, allow you to understand God's Word (his truth), and obey as he directs. I look forward to the day you put out a video called "I once was lost, but now I am saved". With sincerity, you are lost now, but God CAN SAVE anyone. Praying he does that for you. Love you.
You obviously do not have ears to hear. Sad.
@@jonathancummings7433
Your ego-centric, arrogance is stifling....
You are simply setting your own self up as your idol - and bowing down...and regurgitating.
@@greglogan7706, Your comment is disconnected from what I said. Not sure if you are responding to me or someone else. Regardless, it doesn't make sense.
He did not just say “romans road” sarcastically. We need to all be praying for colby in days to come as he needs some serious guidance and help.
God is working on all of us and He brings us to truth through the journey that He knows we need in order to understand Him more fully and deeply.
Really grateful to have this example of a kind and respectful conversation between people with very differing views of their faith. Thank you for asking such thought provoking questions, Sean! Colby believes in a feel-good God and not one that calls for real change and that makes us uncomfortable.
You are 100% wrong about me, Chantelle. But I can understand how this video (and potentially your background, which I don't know about, but if it's conservative/evangelical then I have some sense at least) would lead you to that conclusion. But, yeah, you're very, very wrong.
@@mrcolbymartin thanks for the reply! I may be wrong, I can fill admit that. Just the few interviews I’ve watched and your church website, I haven’t heard of anything that would really challenge someone to change their lives for Christ, and maybe because of your views on sin? I’m not calling for all fire and brimstone, I need the reminders of my fallibility and of God’s infallibility, my need for a Savior. I really do appreciate you taking the time to read, respond and to have this interview.
Sean is such a kind and respectful host/interviewer. I've also seen him in an actual debate, and all I can say is good luck to anyone who debates him. (Meaning he is an incredible debater.)
I like Colby, I don't agree with him on a lot of stuff, but I like him as a person. So I'm glad Sean welcomed him with open arms, I think we should learn to humble ourselves and be just as welcoming.
Sean, I loved this type of discussion!
A conversation with an atheist or agnostic would be so interesting as well!
Would love to see more conversations like this! Appreciate the willingness of both of you to discuss and it was refreshing that the goal was more to clarify beliefs than to debate. I hold mostly orthodox Christian views but I can understand many of the critiques progressives have of evangelicalism, particularly failures in how the church has approached race, sexuality, and doubt. I have a relative who now considers herself an exvangelical and progressive. We've had many conversations since she deconstructed a few years ago and one of the frustrations she's expressed is that evangelicals don't seem to understand progressive beliefs. I get her frustration. Almost all the articles, podcasts, and videos I've seen from evangelicals addressing progressive Christianity have lacked input and firsthand accounts from progressives. I know I wouldn't want progressives to only rely on assumptions or information from exvangelicals when seeking to understand evangelicals. Or to take only bad examples such as disgraced leaders and make them the whole. If we want any chance of having fruitful discussions with those who have deconstructed, we must at least have an accurate understanding of their beliefs and be able to articulate them in a way they see as fair and complete. I think learning about progressive Christianity from progressives themselves would surely help prevent misunderstandings and open the door for more conversation.
It seems to that Colby is a genuine guy who never really experienced the Gospel in the church. That's on us.
I love this conversation. Thank you both.
Wow I am halfway through this.. and it’s very enlightening. I did not have understand these two types til now.
Colby, I appreciate your genuine character and personality. You seem like a genuinely nice person. I liked the push back and clarifying rather than just nodding your head and not wanting to stand out as different. Sean didn't have to pull it out of you as if you were afraid or embarrassed to express it. Lots of courage and maturity man! "The word is on the page. Say It! and we're stuck listening to!" Hilarious!!! (Not to mention begrudged listening.) I played that like several times! Despite not fully being able to thoroughly explain all your views, you did a great enough job at being enlightening--so many ways of seeing things that many evangelicals have never thought of. The only question that I would have liked to have asked, but i wasn't here, was: "Is there a point at which a person is not a Christian?" I know you are not a gatekeeper, but I would have liked to hear what you'd have to say.
Wow, what a lovely comment. Thanks k!
To your question, I'd say this: sure, you bet. I know many people that have stopped identifying as a Christian, and usually its because they've concluded that the idea of following Jesus is no longer tenable or interesting or helpful or good for them. Other people might stop being Christian if they completely unplug from anything having to do with the religion/heritage.
I know how tempting it is for us to be able to have clarity/certainty on who is WHAT... who is IN, who is isn't.. we've been clamoring for that power since the garden of Eden ("the knowledge of good and evil," aka, the ability to judge). I just think we really, really suck at it, and should use such power very sparingly. So I'll almost never question a person if they want to call themselves Christian or not--who can say? Not me.
(Now, I might have feelings about HOW they practice their christianity, and some of the beliefs they've smuggled in... and I might at times be like, "okay, so you're using Christian as a noun... fine... but as an adjective? You are not LIVING like Jesus.")
Anyway, hope that helps.
@@mrcolbymartin Funny conclusion! Love you sense of humor! Thanks for the warm reply.
Loving it so far. A real conversation.
This brought to my mind Revelation 3:16. Thanks Sean and Colby for the interesting conversation!
True love is unconditional. Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as your self. So simple for all level of understanding.
First I'm not always great with words, and like Colby said, I myself have trouble articulating my thoughts (and I do want to thank and commend Colby for doing this talk and being so vulnerable and open) but I feel like the way he is still trying to figure things out, is unsure and questioning even his own beliefs and thoughts, shows that he is trying to fit God into his own perspective, to justify things, to make his own assumptions... but God is never changing, His truth is steadfast and eternal, it does not fluctuate with feelings or circumstances, it is not about making us feel good or comfortable, and does not fit into our worldly ways of how we want to live or want things to be and God does not always give us the answers. Yes, Colby's answers are "incomplete" and unsure because he's still trying to figure it all out and in my opinion trying to fit God/the Bible/Jesus/Christianity into what he wants it to be, to justify things he doesn't agree with or doesn't understand. How can someone look to a pastor who questions his own belief or understanding? How can someone want to pastor when he is still so unclear/unsure and still trying to figure things out on a new journey he's taken? How can someone follow a "movement" or "belief" that is so flexible and still trying to find it's footing and making things up as it goes along? A movement that choses what makes it feel comfortable, what justifies it's beliefs and choices, which just decides on things as it goes along and cherry picks the Bible, and bends the word to their will? It sounds more like a cult to me.
How can someone still consider themselves a Christian (meaning: belonging to Christ) if they don't truly believe in the deity of Jesus and don't believe what Jesus said in his own words "I AM" and that "the way to the father is through me" or that he rose from the dead? These are the core of Christianity. Of course it's your choice if you choose not to believe that but then you are not a Christian or Follower of Christ...not even a little bit. How do you claim to "believe in God" but add and subtract from His Word? That is not Christianity, that is your own made up religion. In a sense it seems you are taking what makes you feel good and what you like from the Bible and just choosing not to believe what makes you feel uncomfortable or you don't like in the Bible...again, Not Christianity! Not a "Follower of Christ"! Not a true believer of God!
I also think a lot of the confusion and reason people walk away from the church and Christianity to be "progressive" are because they have been hurt, turned off by, judged, or let down by other Christians, (as Colby stated) but they are not God. Just because someone claims to be a Christian does not mean he is a true follower of Christ...as Sean pointed out, even demons/Satan believed in Jesus; and all humans (even pastors and Christians) are not perfect, are sinful and make mistakes. Only God is perfect and true and steadfast. If you base your faith on a church, pastor, or any person but Christ you will always be let down. Read and study God's Word/scripture, go deeper, and pray, truly pray, not just perfunctory prayer but deep, meaningful, open to hearing God speak/move in you prayer. God is the same always... humans are not!
Believers who are easily hurt, have not denied themselves.
"Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." - Luke 9:23 NKJV
Its very saddening to hear something like this. I understand we all struggle as christians to accept what the word reads, but this proves the danger of not reading and understanding the scripture. I dont know that Colby is a full repesentation of all prgressives but Paul said if JESUS did not rise from the dead than our Faith is vain. This is why we should not lean on our own understanding and be humble enough to want to learn.
Wow! Thanks, Sean, for your respectful and clarifying questions! Appreciated hearing Colby's and your explanations without debate. Colby and members of his church need great prayer. Contrary to much of Colby's vague dissembling, boundaries, if they exist in his Christian beliefs, are movable/slippery/vauge boundaries that Colby creates. The tent of his faith may be larger than he thinks...with a tent roof made of tennis court netting. He doesn't suggest that church members read the Bible? That may be a help to his church membership. They won't ever encounter the wide/narrow ways explained by Christ. As such, Colby's WIDE way will remain unchallenged.
Watching Colby answer these questions was like watching Lawrence Krauss discuss the theory of nothing and the entire universe is nothing. The conviction is in pride alone.
I hope Colby listens to Eric Mataxas’ interview of Milo Yannopoilis earlier this week.
lollllllll 😂 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Many thanks to Sean for inviting and allowing a progressive to speak. There is so much disinformation on some evangelical channels (and picks of some of the worst people they find on tik-tok) to then try to make an image that they speak for all progressives. It´s like taking a prosperity preacher as an example and then say that every evangelical is like this. So this is a good and refreshing approach to ask a NORMAL progressive what they think. We need to learn to talk with each other, even if we have different views.
* around 15:00 - I have a similar experience of questioning not being welcomed, especially exactly as Colby states, that one had to "accept" the answer. It was a culture of here we believe A B C (period)! You "can" ask anything, but if you don´t believe A B and C, then we will pray for you until you believe. So in this culture we learned between the lines, not to question.
I happen to see a response from @Corey L here.. which in fact is the thing we(you) are discussing Corey L: "Colby has abandoned scripture..." so because someone questions something - they have abandoned scripture. or @Christy Ballinger "This Colby guy is misquoting scripture... He keeps skirting the issue of who God is". What do i read out of that? = You and your questions are NOT welcome here!
That was the same mentality i felt in my old congregation.
* And at ~ 23:00 the quotations above are exactly what is discussed here. Is it only about belief? And same as Colby (23:40), in my youth it was about belief... no matter what love you had, if the belief was wrong - goodbye!
* I think one of the main things missing in defining progressive (in my view) is the view on the bible. 100% inspiration = fundamentalism/evangelical, 99% inspired or less = progressive. That is the whole core in my view. Arguing from that, it´s more likely that progressives are pro LGBTQ, but there could be progressives questioning that too.
Science is a YES, and it has a relation with the view on the bible = 99% or less... If we don´t use science, we become a cult.
* Who is Christian? As Colby suggest, it´s not up to us to decide... I leave that to Jesus. We can have opinions, but that are OUR opinions. //sleeping 7h hours here... back...
Last comments: My own views as a progressive Christian: God is a "person" and you could "see" him (if that is then light or whatever, let´s wait and see. For me Jesus is God in human flesh, I see (as Sean say: a qualitative difference in who Jesus was ~49:00) absolutely, and a HUGE one!
"Fully human - fully God" again is a phrase they made especially to counter Arius ideas in Nicea, so that is more like a statement "against" something than maybe a 100% good description. And what does that even mean? Humans make errors, God does not! God is perfect humans are imperfect! God do not lie, humans lie!
* Inerrancy - there is no inerrancy in my view (the 100% true as I said earlier) but how many % is then where you find the progresives all around the space. Inspiration again - like, let´s say I think Sean is very respectful in this video, and he INSPIRES ME = that means that there is something I would like to do somewhat similar to Sean in learning how to respect others better. Inspired by Sean, does NOT mean that I copy-paste everything he does and says. If you are inspired by God, then maybe something you say or do REFLECTS some ideas of God, but YOU ARE NOT God, and YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR God. But you can still be inspired.
* I agree with Colby´s response 1:03- that Jesus "confirms" the OT is not that simple. 1) Jesus NEVER says: As I told you in the OT, or as I inspired Moses to say.... he says like (you have heard, it has been written). Quite odd if he himself inspired that. 2a) Jesus quotes passages from the OT. 2b) Jesus quotes a passage from the OT that does not exist. 3) Jesus a few times times changes (the text or the meaning/interpretation) of what was written. About divorce - from the beginning it was (no divorce) "God said" - then MOSES (not me orGod) allowed you to divorce IN SCRIPTURE - but I tell you again how it was ment (I / God). Jesus does not say he INSPIRED Moses to allow that, quite contrary. 4) Written text (scripture) was at that time "proof"... if someone had made a verbal agreement "no one" could prove that. A written text was "proof", and therefore what is written is written.....
* Hell (As Colby says, it´s the most evil idea someone could have)... the OT never (I repeat) never mentions hell. At the time of Jesus, this concept , maybe from Greece, have come to "Israel", and is used by Jesus - in my view as a metaphor. It is not a main line in the NT, only mentioned as few times, and then pops up in revelation.
* Extremism occurs in all groups, also within progressive Christianity. We are all different, and I both agree and disagree on some points with Colby, and that is fine!
Anyway THX for the video!
Wow, what a thoughtful engagement with our conversation. Thanks for sharing! And I'm soooo glad that you used this video and the comments to illustrate exactly what I was saying. Thank you, commenters on here, for proving my point.
Thank you for airing this Dr. McDowell -- very helpful. But yes, it has been a serious struggle for me -- I came out of seminary more confused about what it means to be Christian. There does seem to be a kind of paramilitary mindset among many Evangelicals which is there's only one way to understand scripture and our faith. Similarly though -- among progressives I often wonder if they are simply social justice warriors who are appreciate Jesus's solidarity with the poor. Real, real confusing these days -- especially, the whole sexual ethic that is utterly polarised between the two approaches. Thank you for attempting to get something approaching clarity on this -- but also having a non-acriminous conversation.
Sean, you stated many times that you were just trying to get clarity, so was I. It s obvious for you and many that Colby is still possibly disconstructing. He's having a hard time articulating point blank answers and thats OK for the season! He's still attempting to make sense of his belief but its according to his human ideology. My major concern Is that he's a Pastor.. Hello!!! A blind leading blinds. So dangerous and as a community of believers we must keep Colby lifted up; interceeding for his mind that is formulating possible theories to make sense, and for his surroundings that may be instigating some delusions.
I can tell Colby wants God in his life.
With that said Colby, Please consider stepping away from the pulpit until you can wholeheartedly defend whatever you decide is truth because right now it seems you're like a branch in a strong wind (not even a storm). Followers of Christ need consistency, to not feel they are on shaky ground. If year after year your views or messages fluctuate you're confusing you're congregation..That's not loving or kind but destructive and selfish.
Great Great interview Seam and blessings to you both. 🙏🏽
That’s exactly the pattern I’ve seen Colby display. There’s no solid foundation and it seems like he’s more agnostic than Christian. My point as well that the reason this is serious is because he is a Pastor.
Colby ends his talk by saying that he is less about giving definitive answers and prefers to stay in the grey. This might be a good thing to tell those who might consider visiting his church who have doubts and questions and are seeking actual answers. It doesn't sound like this would be the place for them.
Yikes! “Prefers to stay in the grey” reminds me of God declaring that those who are neither hot nor cold will be spat out!
Glad you got God perfectly figured out - maybe you could tell us what time He is going to return...🤔🤔😖
@@greglogan7706 Do you not know that it is written that "not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son" know this time?
good conversation Sean, you are a good interviewer! May God bless you
Pray for Colby and the people he influences🙏❤️
This discussion is exactly like my Physics classes in college.
You come in with a pretty good idea of how to view a problem and then you are told to discuss with your table. Instead of bringing clarity about problems through discussion, everyone is made more confused by some crackpot explanation that doesn't follow any of the laws, principles or equations you learned earlier in the quarter. The more you try to adapt to their perspective (which could be correct, but probably isn't) the more you get off track in solving the real problems at hand. You leave class knowing less than when you came in.
It's good to have our perspectives challenged, but trusting the rules and logic learned over centuries can lead to success in most instances. There may be some exceptions here and there, but our understanding of Physics has still stood the test of time.
Thank you Sean for your ability to tackle the tough area's in life, keep it kind and respectful and yet keep it lined up with the Bible. I would like to know though how Colby teaches truth in his church, if he is unable to nail anything down? Truth in of itself is exclusive. There has to be a plumb line where truth can be lined up against - for the born again believer it is the Bible. If one can't trust the Words of Jesus, then He can't be trusted at all. I see the complication in Colby when he speaks, his mind just won't let him settle. There is a simplicity in Christ - He is not confusing. Colby you have let the enemy confuse you, I pray you come back to the simplicity that is in Christ. There is only one who is the author of confusion - you guessed it, satan.
Great open and honest conversation. I think they both did a good job being kind and respectful towards one another, trying to understand one another's beliefs, as well as clearly articulating their own beliefs. A couple of responses to Colby:
1) I question whether progressive Christians have a way of policing their own borders. Granted that their borders are different from evangelical ones. Evangelicals have a long history and generally have more power in traditional Christian institutions - they are in charge of a bunch of denominations and educational institutions. But if I wanted to get a job teaching at Colby's church, I wonder if I would be allowed since I hold to a traditional position on marriage or gender identity issues. Go down the line - what if I were a white supremacist or a complementarian? While I'm neither one of those, I think being honest about these issues shows that we simply draw the borders at different places. Personally, I would not allow a white supremacist to hold a position at my church, but I would allow a complementarian to, granted that we are not about to change our church's policy on women in ministry.
2) I think we all can see that Colby was "soft" on many issues. He was very hesitant to use strong language describing his own beliefs or even describing the beliefs of *some* forms of traditional Christianity. Take note of how charitable he was with the traditional Nicene position, for example, even though he clearly did not agree with it. Contrast that with the way he described beliefs typically associated with evangelicalism. See, for example, the discussion of inerrancy/infallibility. Colby said that it is "untenable" and "doesn't make sense." Also, in that same context, he dropped his usual softening phrases such as "I think" or "I believe" and went straight for "I recognize that..." stating it as plain fact, not merely his opinion. I don't know what to make of that necessarily, but it is an interesting observation nonetheless.
I thought it was interesting to hear Colby say, "...christianity is a lot more diverse than this little narrow like Romans road sort of way of thinking..."
Jesus said in His Sermon on the Mount "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." Matthew 7:13-14 ESV
A good conversations… kudos for seeking truth
So Sean ends the discussion with "I hope you feel respected, treated well here...". While Sean treated him with grace and respect, it is a lot more than can be said of the commenters.
Colby strikes me as someone who is too impressed with himself and the world and not nearly enough with the Bible and it’s incredible testimony about Jesus.
He comes from a generation of narcissists and seems to be fitting into a mold that speaks to them, which is to be narcissistic.
Also, when you don’t hold to the supremacy and inerrancy of scripture then passages like this mean little:
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
James 3:1
Tragically if Colby is teaching others these same nebulous concepts, no matter how hip and popular, the consequences are ETERNAL.
It’s hard to die to yourself Colby, but that’s the road to travel down. Or you’ll take others to hell with you.
Jazz doesn’t get you to Heaven - Jesus does.
I agree ! All I got from Colby Martins comments were his huge pride and ego. And when Mr McDowell would bring up Martin’s disrespectful comments like “meat puppets”, Martin would grin and laugh, so proud of himself. I think he is creepy.
@@suzannecarroll2388 wow. These are both very rude comments. Did either of you consider how these words would make me feel? And if so, did that matter to you?
@@mrcolbymartin The things you said about our Heavenly Father and the Bible, do you ever think about how you make HIM feel? You Sir are a Humanist. You worship yourself.
“Narrow is the gate and narrow is the road/path!" There's only one way.
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad and easy to travel is the path that leads the way to destruction and eternal loss, and there are many who enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow and difficult to travel is the path that leads the way to [everlasting] life, and there are few who find it.”
~Matthew 7:13-14 AMP
Just found your channel! It’s awesome!
Cool!
Thank you to both for a respectful conversation. Colby, can I just touch on your metaphor with music? I am a musician. I love all sorts of music-very eclectic. But there are some basic understands of music that need to be learned and understood in order to have any kind of music. For example, an "A" needs to be the same in classical as it is in jazz. If I didn't have any understanding of the basics, I could pick up the most beautiful of instruments and not be able to make any musical sense. There are things that just are foundational in order to make any music work. But in the scope of understanding, there is a wide variety of beautiful sound. We want to question God's design, but in the end, it is what makes the most beautiful of lives.
Totally with you. Well said. Obviously the metaphor breaks down if you extend it too far. My only point was to illustrate the freedom and flexibility within jazz for improvisation and dynamic movement-as opposed to other musical styles with more rigid structures and static parameters. But yes, all music requires some shared understanding of notes and chords and bars, etc
@@mrcolbymartin Hi, Colby. Thanks for responding. I think the metaphor is a great one. I'm gonna keep going with it to make my point a bit more clear. One can only have the freedom and flexibility within jazz, or any type of music, only within the required shared understanding of the basics. Even within jazz, if you don't have the foundation, the sounds are chaos. I believe in life it's the same. The truth will set one free. That's the most loving thing I can think of.
@@carollynnpettis6580 yup, I’m right there with you. Jazz-though dynamic and full of space and freedom-still is dependent on foundational musical “truths” (for lack of a better word). In the same way, for me, my Christianity is dependent upon the foundational life and teachings of Jesus who has shown us the way to experiencing the Kingdom of God. Compassion, mercy, forgiveness, and grace are to Christianity what scales, triads, fifths, and beats are to jazz.
@@mrcolbymartin Thanks for engaging. I've experienced doubt growing up in an evangelical family myself and I've wrestled through many of the things you mentioned . I came out with different conclusions. Jesus' life was based on the OT, and that was included for us so that we could see the goodness and holiness of God, how we as people deserted Him, and now in the NT how God Himself came down to experience our brokenness and bring redemption. Without the understanding of how good God really is, and how far we've fallen, I don't think that we can really experience the full capacity of His compassion, mercy, forgiveness, grace, and especially love. Forgive me if I'm bothering you. I find this so very important.
Progressive Christians want the peace and comfort of the Lord but not the accountability and sacrifice the Lord requires.
I really like Sean. He and I could never see 100% eye to eye but I know we could be friends and respect each other. He has kind eyes, I can see he is a good man and has love inside him :)
SEAN IS A SAINT TO SIT THRU THIS WITH A STRAIGHT FACE...
Next time Colby can interview Sean (so that Colby doesn’t feel he has to justify himself)
Could you please explain what the different types of beliefs are here. I’m certainly confused.
The Bible is replete with instructions to “visit orphans and widows in their distress” (James 1:27, NASB) and to protect the environment that God has entrusted to us (Genesis 1:28). Insofar as Progressive Christianity is a movement that seeks to emphasize and honor these principles, it certainly lines up with Scripture.
However, there are some aspects of Progressive Christianity that contradict a biblical worldview.
In general, members of this movement do not ascribe to the biblical doctrine of the inerrancy of Scripture, and, again, in general, do not believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God. Progressive Christianity also tends to emphasize what is known as “collective salvation” over the biblical concept of personal salvation.
The Bible is clear that God redeems those individuals who believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and rescues them from an eternity of being separated from Him in torment. Collective salvation, by contrast, emphasizes the restoration of whole cultures and societies to what progressive Christians believe is the correct socioeconomic structure, namely, Marxism. Marxism, in turn, is a theory of economics and politics developed by an atheist (Karl Marx) from unbiblical assumptions.
In this sense, then, the views of many progressive Christians do not fit with biblical principles. In the end, however, discretion is needed in evaluating a particular claim or belief in terms of Scripture; the whole spectrum of beliefs identified by the term “Progressive Christianity” is too broad to permit an unequivocal conclusion as to whether or not it can be labeled unbiblical.
As with all uncertain issues, the Christian would do well to compare each claim of those in the Progressive Christianity movement with Scripture, asking God for the wisdom to discern truth from error. He has promised wisdom to all who seek it (James 1:5).
www.gotquestions.org/Progressive-Christianity.html
Very well done. Colby I’m sorry for the rude comments. It took some guts coming onto this channel with followers all with different beliefs! My beliefs do differ but respect and pray for you. Please take no offense I’m saying and doing it in love. What is the progressive view on the rapture and end times?
Thanks Julie. And I appreciate your kindness to offset the rudeness. While I don’t/can’t speak for all progressive Christians, I’ll say that for most, we’ve come to see that the idea of a Rapture is a theological invention of the 20th century, not biblical, and poor theology.
@@mrcolbymartin There are many historic Christians who believe the same about the rapture. Even William Lane Craig has said he's on board with a 2nd coming, but not a secret Rapture. I think there are many things that some Christian churches have come to believe and teach that are definitely not scriptural and certainly not true to historic Christianity, but instead of leaving the faith, or trying to recreate it to fit inside the box we want it to fit in, we can choose to get back to the roots. Researching and learning what the early church taught and believed for thousands of years has been very helpful to me. I agree with you that there are many aspects of "evangelicalism" that have gone horribly wrong, but Jesus (the fully human/fully divine incarnation of God who died as a substitutionary atonement for our sin, rose again and sits at the right hand of the Father interceding for us) has not changed. Where the church has failed, He has not. He can be trusted.
@@mrcolbymartin I find it interesting you you seem so unsure of so much scripturally but you have such strong confidence here. What happened to that “I could be wrong” mentality? I guess what I’m saying is, your confident statement of “not biblical” seems rather... conservative... lol
Would you say that your theological view on homosexuality could also be viewed as a theological invention of the 20th (or perhaps 21st century)?
@@mrcolbymartin Thank you for sharing this, although I do not share this belief. I am curious to learn what and why the progressive church believes because it concerns me and the Bible does say this will happen in the end times. I challenge you to continue to pray about seeing things this way because of experiences with other believers. When I have a bad experience with Christian's I try to look to Jesus because that is not who He is or what He wants us to be like - we need His discernment and wisdom. Right now, I believe He is separating the sheep from the goats and there is many who will be deceived. I wonder why He says we will be persecuted like Himself (Jesus) was if the real Christian church was to be going along with the rest of society being of this world other than NOT of this world. Just something to ponder. I believe real pure love comes from Him and we need His full love to do anything for Him. Without it we are nothing. His love is pure and from above. Greater than any other gift. I am sorry for the bad experiences you have had in the church and that is why I believe now He is calling out His believers to be REAL and authentic; displaying the actual love of Christ from above. There is one out there who does want to make the church look like hypocrites and fights against us to make this happen. We need to be fully prepared in the armor is what the Bible says to withstand this. Also we are not to lean on our own understanding. We are to trust acknowledge Him in all of our ways and He will direct our paths. I’m sure you believe that too?
Wow. Wonderful conversation
My heart breaks for Colby. Although I agree with him that it is good to ask questions (God isn't threatened by our questions at all) and that being a Christian isn't about having a correct creed, he is still missing what it is to follow Jesus. His disciples didn't spread different gospels. They all spread the truth that Jesus had given them, the truth that came from God in the beginning.
It seems apparent to me that his struggles aren't really with God or evangelical Christianity, but more with his hurts that are triggering childhood trauma. His parents divorced. Our society acts like that's just one of those things that happen sometimes. But it's a devastation, the shaking of your bedrock. If your core, your family, can be shattered, it can feel like nothing is solid anymore.
Colby being removed for his new ideas must have felt something like being divorced. Rejection is hard enough; but when you've already felt "rejected" or as if your well-being wasn't important enough to keep the family together, it can go much deeper.
At least, that's how I would feel in his situation.
"Theological liberalism is unbelief." - RC Sproul
.....of course how one defines that liberalism is another question.
Colby is not a Christian. He is his own God and makes up whatever rules he “feels” are right. He stands on and for nothing but his “feelings”.
When I met my husband, he was a (very) nominal catholic. I was a very conservative Christian. His view of Christian was very much a political slant (they hate gays, picket PP, rich). He got saved in our church, saw authentic Christianity, people he was in solid Christian relationship in, etc. for about 15 years things were good, aside from a restlessness that he felt (he’s an artist, very empathic). About 10 years ago, he pursued an (online) masters at a progressive west coast seminary. He has since felt very “alienated” at evangelical churches. (He hasn’t abandoned beliefs like homosexuality being a sin, etc.; for the moment), but it’s brought up all his old progressive pre Christian beliefs. He is now VERY critical of the evangelical church. This has brought up how much we differ in essentials and overall world view. We are struggling. It’s ok for the moment, but.
Luke 24:44
Then he said, “When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled”
When he talked about old testament. Scripture is truth, not our feelings
Sean, I see inspiration of scripture like this. Let’s say I am a HUGE Michael Jackson fan. I study his music, I study his dance moves and his life. One day I decide I want to make my own music and start writing years and years after he passed. My music today is INSPIRED by his music, it sounds like his music and even is sourced from his music, but it is not exactly his music. I have been inspired by him but it doesn’t mean it is his exact music, I have made in my own.
I got clarity period Progressive Christians wanted their way and Christians want it Yahweh
The conversation that happened between Colby and Pastor Owen was a great discussion. It really shows that Colby isn’t a Christian and unqualified to be a Pastor.
Why should it be thought incredible by you that God raises the dead?
Acts 26:8
Great to hear you mention Dennis Prager's Rational Bible series (even if not by name). It is one of my favorites.
I think this was a great conversation and I really appreciate Colby's openness and forthcomingness -- I think the Church could absoltely be more gracious & less judgemental when folks are questioning their faith. If we have the Truth then I believe we should encourage(!) people to wrestle with Christianity (Sean said his father encouraged him to do the same thing).
I came away with an observation in the light of a spirit of discernment: Colby seems open to individuals' experience and interpretations of their personal spiritual journies. However, he was UNEQUIVOCAL in one point that I picked up on... the "untenable position that the Bible is inerrant". Colby mentioned this point at least twice, and did so with such a boldness that I get the sense that this was discussed prior to the video and Sean agreed not to turn this into a debate on Biblical inerancy. The first time Colby mentions this you can see Sean give the SLIGHTEST of smiles but doesn't give so much as a word in response.
Obviously, I'm going to pick my theology based on who has the better hair. It's a tough choice though.
FWIW, I totally support this move. 😎
His parents got divorced and he's been through a lot of hurt...I've learned that that can be a doorway for different spirits(specifically the spirit of confusion) The way Colby debated with this other guy really gave evidence that he may actually have that spirit and someone needs to break that spirit off of him😪
What about how he spoke made you think he has a spirit of confusion?
@@saskiascott8181 it's been a while since I've watched this but if my memory serves me right, he seemed pretty confused about his theology
If you want a summary of the conversation it is this:
Sean: I have the truth about the one and only God.
Colby: I can't know the truth about the God I believe and I am still seeking.
It is very human to not know the answers and in doubt you find God and faith more than when you claim to know all the truths.
I think where Colby fails in his presentation is he (and many progressive Christians) believe that those who were disciples and early church members did not see as clearly as today's Christians. The problem with that way of thinking is, the further you get away from a mirror, the more your eyes strain to make out the details of what you are seeing and it becomes open to interpretation. The same problem exists here. He is standing back away from the mirror and describing what he sees and what he "feels" and what he "knows" and believes his sight is reality.
No matter how I feel about it, may God bless Colby with eyes that see truth, ears that hear HIS voice and a spirit that holds firmly to Him.
So impressed with you Sean.... great questions! Never listened to you before. I will be now. Thank you and may God continue to give you wisdom and courage as the heat gets hotter in the USA.
Thanks Ryan. I’m glad these interviews are helpful!
I do actually appreciate the interview as well.
However, I don't know what you mean about "the heat getting hotter" other than evangelical fascists trying to overthrow our democratic country and install a demagogue...contrary to the Word of God...😖😢
@@greglogan7706 you wouldn't be able to understand the "heat getting hotter". It's a Christian thing.... only fascists can understand. Lol
@@ryanjaeger4173
You are simply spewing silliness that you made up out of the lust of your flesh and your love of human tradition and religious deceit.
Concerning the resurrection...
Isaiah 53 is in the Jewish Book of the Prophets. When I first read it in the Old Testament, as an agnostic, I thought maybe Christians inserted it in order to make their case. But I KNEW the LAST place Jesus should EVER be is in a Jewish book. So I drove to Barnes and Noble Bookstore. Walked straight to the Jewish section. And. He was there.. "Wounded for our transgressions..."
"Given a grave among the wicked.. But was with the rich in His death.."
"But after the suffering of his soul, he saw the light of life..."
“I have lost a bit of the personal aspect of God.” BINGO You lose your relationship with God and drift away from him, you leave room for the enemy to creep in.
Doubt is not an enemy. Doubt is humble, being skeptical is a good thing. It makes us question the world around us. Jesus himself did not care for ppl who just follow him blindly, he hanged out with ppl that questioned him and were skeptical, know who he told off! The ones that were critical of him hanging out with those ppl.
@@joeclark1621 I never said follow blindly and never question things. It actually tells us to test the spirits in scripture. I was just saying when you lose your relationship with God, you tend to lean on your own understanding of things and conform to the world, both of which we’re warned of in the Bible.
@@stacefaceee9976 what other understanding am I forming but my own, obviously I rationalize something based on my understanding and not someone elses. You act and believe the same way millitant atheists do in that while they say religious ppl do not use intellect, you claim that to not believe in something automatically comes out of cynicism or and stubborn heart when like I explained before, most ppl believe or not believe simply based on how the world makes sense to them. If I do not believe in superman, it is not cause I hate superman or I hate to believe he exist, maybe I even wish he does so he can save humanity but simply cause it is a comic figure. Again, I am not saying the belief in god is like the believe in superman. I am saying that things that are matters of beliefs can not simply be accepted nor rejected by prompt but rather by conviction and evidence.
@@stacefaceee9976 If someone tells you to believe in Budha, should I expect you to just leave Jesus and believe in Budha! No of course not cause you were brought up to believe in Jesus and as you pointed, you have a spiritual connection with him but by the same token, why expect ppl to believe in Jesus when they have their own conviction or at least skeptism about your belief by prompt! I do not reject the notion that there is only one truth and it is Christ, what I have an issue with is when you or ppl like you prompt that others simply adapt that without using their own reasons and skeptism of the world around them. There are ppl that deny scientific stuff, usually conservative religious ppl, I do not see the science world going after them insisting that they change, yet religious ppl constantly asking seculars to adapt their ideas. I am not sure how you can read what I just typed and just assume that I am just biased against faith. I think it is pretty reasonable what I am saying. It is not rocket science.
@@joeclark1621 I don’t think you read my response… I never said follow blindly. I said when you lose your closeness to God you allow the world to creep in and it tells us not to conform to this world
Your ability to avoid debate is very impressive
A case of when the questions becomes the answer. Colby seems to be in the thick of processing all of these things and is left with a towering question mark at the present time. That said, Is that a position you want to lead a flock of people with? Postscript: he does have a perfect set of hair.
How can you say the God of the old testament is harsh and kills nations and the God of the new testament isn’t the same? May I kindly direct everyone to the book of revelation
All of his answers are grounded in subjective experience rather than seeking what is true.
He is always looking at the comments, because that’s what his religion is based on; human approval, over Gods approval.
My thoughts on the 4 things he listed as being the difference between Progressive and Evangelical Christianity...
1. Women's role in marriage and the church: There are definitely extremes that use these passages in a way to abuse women. Most Evangelicals reject that. In terms of a role, it does not mean that they are not equal to men. They are definitely equal in value. At the root of it, is a question of current day cultures that are constantly changing, and what we understand God says about it. Culture changes, but God's word is always the same.
2. Lgbt+: Very similar to number 1. Cultures beliefs change on the issue, but our understanding of scripture believes it is a sin. It is not a level above other sins, but the current culture sees it that way because it is in conflict. Other than some extremist Christians, we believe in loving members of lgbt+ while teaching the truth that they have hope in Jesus Christ. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God.
3. White supremacy: I honestly don't understand this because I do not know a single Evangelical Christian that is a white supremacist. As for how we fight against it is a different issue. I actually supported Collin Kaepernick kneeling for the national anthem. But I also know black people that don't agree with the critical race theory.
4. Science: Young earth creationists are not antiscience. If we understand that evolution is a scientific based theory and not proven fact, young earth creationists also back up their claims with science. Neither can be proven.
If I could recommend one book to Colby Martin it would be "The Great Divorce" by CS Lewis, because it may help to explain hell as a choice that a person can make, and with it he may shed this mistake of seeing judgement day as scholastic, reducing faith to belief.
I've read "The Shift". Looking back at my review of it (some time ago now), I think it's summed in this paragraph response:
"The real problem is that his definition of Christianity omits almost everything in our earliest creeds; Paul held as a matter of "first importance" that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day (1 Cor 15), so we can't reduce this to "living life to the fullest" and "identifying with at least some aspects of the religious tradition". I have to think that he's "shifted" from the merest definition of Christianity that is recognizable, and he's leading others away from it also."
Colby should be asking more questions and making less assumptions for this to be a good conversation
~28:00 into the discussion Colby makes progressive Christianity sound a lot like the platform for a political party... like politics masquerading as religion. I am certain this is not the whole story but it is striking that he would choose those markers as identifying a person as a progressive Christian.
Bill,
Evangelism has been doing this for 30 - 40 years - Is as an actual fact and in a very destructive manner ..😢
Colby is right about evangelicals often hurting people. However it seems that he’s given up scripture for his own emotions. Just like many evangelicals, many progressive Christians seem to go to the opposite extreme against evangelicals. But from this video I can see that Colby doesn’t seem to be in that extreme group. Both sides are very graceful and kind in this conversation, and that brings me a sense of hope for modern Christianity
You might be right with the claim that some go to the opposite extreme against evangelicals, but the problem lies deeper. I, a progressive, face evangelicals calling me NONE CHRISTIAN and even one called me a satanist, because I am not an evangelical. The extremes on both sides tend to flame hatred. Therefore I am positive towards this discussion with respect, even if they differ on opinions. We should learn to respect each other, regardless of opinions.
@@PjotrII I think you’re completely right. I have family members that will often tell me I shouldn’t even listen to the progressive perspective. But as I see it. If I can’t test a belief I also can’t believe it to be truthful
@@southernblubber4346 Very important, we should test and be able to test views. I sometimes listen to atheist, to learn about their claims against Christianity... that does not mean that I like their ideas & arguments, but I can test DIFFERENT arguments and see what is a plausible answer. I think like this... whatever is true, can be tested, and retested again... it will be shown to be true. If someone does not want you to test a claim, one could question, if that claim is true.
Hey we can all point out that yes, Colby is outside of historical Christianity, but let's pray for him! Not just call out his fallacies and flaws in the comment section.
I've met people who were hurt by those in the Evangelical Church, and it wasn't me debating them and pointing out their contradictions that brought them back to the true faith given once and for all to the saints, it was praying desperately for God to bring them back and allowing the Holy Spirit to work through me to show the love of Christ (and this was very painful at times, I'm VERY theologically and apologetically orientated). If we truly are correct in our convictions, then people should naturally see the supernatural amount of love we have!
Let's follow Sean's example of peace, patience, and love shown towards Colby.
Progressive sounds really confusing.
Great job Sean.
What’s missing amongst us conservative Christians is grace. Sean displays grace here and so did his father to him. If people are questioning, be gracious and trust God for clarity. When we’re not being gracious, we respond in fear. That’s very destructive.
I don't think Paul was lacking grace and being destructive when he called the Galatians fools for listening to false teachers, the same false teachers he later says under inspiration of Holy Spirit he wishes would castrate themselves. Was Paul responding in fear? Possibly, but fear is not a bad thing, especially when the fear is false teachers leading the church astray. Sometimes, I believe the love and grace of God are defined Biblically and look very different than how our culture naturally wants to use these words.
We can point to the Holy Spirit but only the Holy Spirit can convict and change.
@@TKK0812 I get what you’re saying 100%. Don’t mistake my words for some modern, touchy-feely woke Christianity. I know that’s the loudest voice in social media. I’m only saying we can sometimes let fear rule our responses. I know I used to and still do - fear that the wrong sentiments will be heard and that I’m somehow responsible to change a person’s view. I like what @Scott Hix said - that’s the Holy Spirit’s job. Yes we have to call out false doctrine and error. But if you’re going to have a lengthy dialogue about it in public, I think Sean did this right. And again, I agree with you about that grace and love have to be defined Biblically. It always must include truth or our efforts are cruel in the long run.
@@rejoicingbones Thanks for the response, RB
@@TKK0812 Im glad you brought that up.
Colby, THE LORD, taught us , "the way is narrow ...
Exactly! Meanwhile, Colby keeps going on about how they offer an open door to a "wide" variety of this and that. If ever there was a warning sign not to go that way.
....but not a tight rope.
Colby does bring up a good point about how we treat people, but as Sean right points out - what is that love based on. Which of course is The Truth. Be born again and begin a relationship with Christ, have good Theology (beliefs) and love the people in the Church and the lost.
It should be simple.
Lol you conservative christians are so hilarious. Its silly the way you guys think honestly.
@@isoakkfgy4462 You Scoffers are so sad
@@josephgabriele4428 its funny though. You claim to have a belief system based around love, yet your kind so quickly abuse/abandon those who question their faith