New video is coming next week! :) Got some interesting results on tuning memory. The G.Skill one, but also Corsair Vengeance and Crucial Ballistix. Stay tuned.
@Stereo Rainbow i guess the CPU undervolting with fixed frequency is a good starting point to reduce heat and noise :) The settings to choose depends on your use-case of course. Games benefit from higher clocks, renderers just want stable settings with moderate temperatures. You could try 3.9 GHz fixed as daily. Maybe at 1.09V to 1.14V or something.
Hätte ich die Ballistix behalten sollen? Habe die grade zurück gegeben und gegen HyperX getauscht, weil die im JEDEC schon 3200 mHz bringen. Dafür nur CL 20 statt CL16 der Ballistix. Wobei die die CL16 nur im XMP bringen. JEDEC auch nur CL20. HyperX haben im XMP CL17. Wird spannend. Wäre super, wenn man die auf 3600 kriegen könnte. 🤷🏼♂️
Das ist die Frage aller Fragen. die erreichbaren Timings der Module können erheblich von den Herstellerangaben abweichen. Ich erinnere mich da z.B. an das erste Video zum Apex 15 vom @der8auer er hatte die Crucial Ballistix 3200 verwendet, hatte sie aber nicht auf 3200 bekommen. In der Zwischenzeit gab es ein neues BIOS und wahrscheinlich auch eine neue Mainboardrevision. Ich denke 3200 sollten gehen. Aber sie sind mit 1.35V für 3200 CL16 spezifiziert, nicht 1.2V. Was bleibt also übrig? Interessant ist nun, dass ich meine original zum Apex 15 bestellten Corsair Vengeance 2666 CL18-19-19 auf ebenso vergleichbar straffe Timings bekommen habe wie die G.Skill 3200 Cl18. Theoretisch ist 3200 CL18 bis CL16 also möglich, egal ob vom Hersteller spezifiziert oder nicht. Wichtig ist natürlich immer der verbaute Memory Die. Die "besten" und "beliebtesten" bei Memory Overclockern sind Samsung B-die, SKhynix CJR, und Micron E-die. Solange die in ausreichender Qualität verbaut sind spricht nichts gegen relativ gutes OC-Potential. Binning seitens der Speicherhersteller bzw. DRAM-Stick-Hersteller ist auch noch ein Faktor. Achso und ja, 3600MHz sind auch möglich. Die G.Skill Ripjaws laufen damit einigermaßen stabil bei 3600 CL19-21-22-43-67-648-1T. Das geht sicher auch mit den Corsair Vengeance. Bei den Ballistix muss ich noch schauen, hab die leider noch nicht erhalten. ABER, dafür muss die SoC Spannung auf mindestens 1.05V, eher 1.10V hoch, was die Leistungsaufnahme des SoC / IO Die der CPU erhöht. Statt 10W im Idle verbraucht das SoC / IO Die dann allein plötzlich gern mal 12-13W. Ich bleibe lieber bei 3200-3333MHz mCLK mit SoC 0.975V und begnüge mich mit 8.6W SoC-Leistungsaufnahme :) Ich mag's kühl. Flott ist das trotzdem schon.
@Stereo Rainbow in this case you misunderstood :) Undervolting is king, but only in combination with a fixed frequency. It can reduce the temoeratures quite a lot. Watch the video again, i explained how it works and how to apply for daily use (software zenstates)
Hi, XMG here. Let me comment on some points made in the video. I will concentrate them around 3 specific segments of the review. #1 2:50 | new BIOS: DANGEROUS "Quiet" power mode? The GPU does not throttle in this mode because NVIDIA does not have any API for OEM-controlled GPU throttling. GPU speed is purely controlled by NVIDIA's driver, the maximum VBIOS power limit (115W in this laptop) and by GPU Temp Target. For GPU Temp Target, NVIDIA allows a range of 75° to 87°C. This target can only be set once - it's a global value. NVIDIA does not allow to change GPU Temp Target on-the-fly. So the GPU Temp Target for Silent Mode is the same as it is for Performance Mode. The ODM picks 87°C GPU Temp Target in pretty much all of the laptop. Currently, the only laptop in our portfolio that opts to use the lowest allowed GPU Temp Target at 75°C is XMG FUSION 15. In other words: the CPU/GPU temperatures reached in Furmark+Prime in "Quiet" mode are still within safe limit as deemed by NVIDIA and our ODM. While it might be desirable to have lower temperatures in a desktop replacement like XMG APEX 15, NVIDIA intentional lack of flexibility makes this a very difficult undertaking. To get a silent mode with lower power consumption, manual FPS Limiting is currently the only option. Another challenge is the fact that the EC does not have enough storage for 4 different fan curves. Instead, the Quiet profile is usually an Offset of the Entertainment fan curve, with some additional rules on top. We will have a look into how we could improve this fan table under high loads, especially in warm environments. #2 4:25 | new BIOS: future tuning options The project of providing a more unlocked BIOS is currently stalling due to some internal issue that I can't publicly discuss due to NDA. We still have our eyes on providing more option one way or another and we'll try another push on this matter soon. The idea is to limit the set of options to a more "reasonable" limit while still minimizing the amount of R&D work and RMA risk for our ODM. Regarding the comparison to other laptops in our portfolio: other laptops based on Intel platform don't have fully unlocked BIOS either. The main feature in our Intel-based laptops is a convenient CPU Undervolting (Voltage Offset) option. It has great benefits on Intel's platform (at least up until Coffee Lake) while having very little risk and very little validation complexity. The kind of unlocked BIOS that we had in mind for XMG APEX 15 (as seen in der8auer's video) is so far unprecedented for any of our laptops (which makes it such a struggle in the grander scheme of things). Commenting on the wish list: - The option to modify the maximum battery charge limit already exists. It's called "FlexiCharger" in the BIOS and is found under Advanced Chipset options. It's disabled by default and allow down to 40% lower limit and 60% upper limit. It's been tested, it works. It's been a standard feature in this ODM's products ever since we heavily lobbied to introduce this feature in the year 2015. - We concede that DRAM Tuning would be a major boon to the system and it's on our "tba" list for a more unlocked BIOS. - No plans for manual CCX Overclocking in BIOS or Control Center because it might exceed the scope of what we can do with AMD's standard set of BIOS options. But the results from the reviewer's fixed All-Core overclock are duly noted. #3 11:16 | CPU OC/UV: fan/temperature behavior improvements The request to use CPU/Die-Average is duly noted but there is little chance that our ODM will follow this request. It seems like they are following AMD's recommended standard which is supposed to protect against CPU hotspots under fully-loaded situations. We have adapted our fan curves to be a little bit more tolerant, so they shouldn't produce too many excessive CPU fan spikes in low load situations. # Additional remarks Wow, this is a great and valuable review! Especially the detailed look at the Performance vs. Power Consumption Graph (finding that sweet spot at 48W power limit) is extremely helpful and should be an example for other tech review platforms to follow. We are looking forward to Part 2 and 3. Anyone who wishes to stay up to date about future updates on XMG APEX 15, please subscribe to this UA-cam channel and follow our XMG_gg sub-reddit. Thank you! Freel free to post your questions under this comment. // Tom
Thanks Tom! As always great community service we see from XMG. :) #2 FlexiCharger is available? Oops, sorry missed that. Good to hear that feature is already available! Too bad that there is no easy way to enable per CCX OC at the moment. The potential is great. But I will not give up and always hope. ;) #3 Already thought about that these TctlTdie spikes make sense to improve boosting behaviour and reduce hotspots. But still, they are annoying for notebook cooling solutions. Too bad that there is no alternative offered by AMD.
Tom are you able to comment on the suggestion I made to the video concerning water cooling. Read, the comment, I think it would be relatively easy to implement and could be made to work without any other modification to the laptop than cutting a hole in the bottom cover. Would this void the guarantee? Is there a way that you would not consider this hole voiding the guarantee, provided one does not hack the software or modify the hardware in another way? I'd appreciate you guys looking into this. Thanks, Franziska
Hey, is it possible to use a Ryzen 5 1600 with this laptop, I'm getting the bare bones kit and this is the only processor I have on hand. What about Ryzen 4000 support?
@@teamdas3dstudio368 Generally speaking, I can't give blanket statements on hardware modifications and water cooling. As soon as you cut holes into the cover, you might void your warranty. I mean sure, if you know what you're doing, feel free to share your detailed plans with us beforehand to get approval. // Tom
We can say this is definitely the best review channel about XMG products, they should provide you other CPUs for testing (and pay you! ;) ). Thank you for what you're doing, looking forward to seeing the next episodes. P.s. I am still undecided about the CPU (mainly for 3D sims and rendering, e.g. Houdini and c4d sims, particles, fluids, etc) but I'll get through it.
Thank you very much :) Happy to hear you like it. Good news, I will receive some CPUs for testing in the next days. But I have to return them of course, still not paid. ;) I hope I can take a look on the 3600, 3600XT, 3700X, 3800X, 3900, 3900X and 3950X and compare them with each other inside the Apex 15. Stay tuned.
Nice review mate, very detailed ! This confirms what i thought, I am considering the XMG Core 17 with 4800H, and for gaming, the CPU is not used so much, so the best thing to do is limit the TDP of the CPU and put the GPU to the max, this way you get better temps and performance, since in the laptops they have some shared heat pipes. I'm very interested in the part 3, on how to undervolt / overclock the GPU. I wonder if it's possible to go above the wattage limit of the cards if the temperatures and the PSU allows it... This might change though, with next gen consoles, games might become more and more CPU heavy and taking advantage of that multi-core capacity ! Keep up the good work !
The power limit can't be extended without a modded BIOS. So no, but you can easily undervolt you GPU since pascal (or maybe even maxwell?) series with MSI afterburner. The regular GPU clock slider has always been a direct modification of the GPU clock, but since pascal (or maxwell, not sure) it does not simply increase gpu clock, it decreases voltage, which lead to less power draw of the GPU core and so the GPU core automatically clocks higher to fit into it's power target. It's a bit odd. It undervolts and overclocks at the same time.
@@TechModLab yeah sadly... there was a bios tweaker for the the previous ones, but not anymore. I was just looking at videos of that, i will wait and see the results you get in the part 3 though. Very interesting review 👍
Also looking forward to the fan noise video! Both your vids are fantastic and super helpful .. Thank you! There's a special offer on this in my country til 30 June so here's hoping you can get them out by then!
@@TechModLab thank you! Really just one question. What's the noise level like on the 'quiet' mode? I think I'm happy with anything around 35 dba. My use case? I would like to edit photos in bed with my baby in the room 😀 some noise is actually desirable, but not too loud as to disturb her! The rest of the time will be used at a desktop for mainly video editing and fan noise shouldn't be a concern really!
@@Lgun229 The idle noise is in fact 35-36dBa. You want to use it on battery in bed? Don't expect too much on battery time in this case. Configured with the 3700X it maxes out at 90 minutes in idle and up to 75minutes in light load situations. With ManualOC+undervolting shown in this video I managed to drop down to an idle power consumption of 35W instead of 45W, so around 110 minutes on battery in idle. But can't confirm that with tests yet! The 3900 and 3950X prove to be more power hungry, especially in idle. I read something about 60W stock, that's a lot compared to my 45W stock. But I think it should be possible to push that down to around 50, maybe even 45W with some Manual OC + undervolting.
@@TechModLab thank you again for taking the trouble to respond! Yes I will have it connected the overwhelming majority of the time, so my primary concern was fan noise. Yes I think the 3700x seems like the sweet spot!
Thank you for another very informative video. Can't wait to receive my "beast" in a few days ;-) I take the liberty to post my message under your last video once more here, as it might help some folks tackling potential overheating in a relativly simple way. I hope you do not mind: "...Just got a thought looking at the video and the loud spinning fans, as I also saw some videos on water cooling laptops and the heat pipe arrangement of the Apex 15, how about this: You can see the heat pipes on the Apex 15 are directly under the lower cover (1:15 to 3:50 in the video). For hardware hackers It might be an option to just cut the plastic housing open there and than create a kind of upstand for the laptop which has a large watercooled plate at the same spot. Than just pose the laptop on that cooled plate. Copper to copper. One might not even need thermal paste as the area is very large. It might even work to some extend to just put the laptop without plastic base cut on such a plate, still I do wonder about condensation issues than. Besides cutting the plastic base cover open that would not make other mods to the Apex 15 necessary. You could even add a cover to close the hole when using the Apex 15 on the go. Thoughts & comments are welcome. A suggestion to XMG, perhaps it might be an idea to create something like this as a sort of docking station. Ship it together with a modified bottom cover than. Alternatively you could add a small easily removable area in the lower cover to all Apex 15 to be sold in the future..."
Hi Franziska, saw your other comment addressed to XMG, but I will answer here. I consider to design a more or less complex docking station for the Apex 15 after those review videos. You can see the hint "watermarked" at the end of the video ;) Originally I planned to design the docking station primarily to lower the fan noise, so inclose the intake and exhaust air in chambers. But your suggestion sound interesting too. Maybe I will take a look on a water cooling extension (copper block with thermal pads, for continuous use). Thanks for the comment! I have the feeling that the community around the Clevo NH57AF1 / XMG Apex 15 is pretty techie. I love it! ;) Have to ask for a replacement bottom cover though :P
@@TechModLab Thanks. Great. One more from my end, I think it would be wise to try to make the upstand under which the thermal copper pad is located from a wire material (or similar if printed in 3D) as this would ensure that the original airflow of the laptop is unhindered. We do not want to create a sort of hot air collector underneath. If you (or we?) can achieve a docking station which does not need to modify the laptop apart from the modified bottom cover, we might have the best chances to keep the warranties alive. I have a couple more ideas, migh be worth switching to email for this.
@@teamdas3dstudio368 I will come back on this later. First finish those review videos :) I have a couple of ideas to make this work, too: Version 1 will be good to reduce noise, because this is obviously the most anticipated concern about the Apex 15. Cooling performance is great, but the fans (especially the GPU one) torture your ears. Version 2 will sort of allow an inlay of copper cooling components inside the docking station and make thermal contact with the heatsink. There will be need to modify your backplate or buy a spare one, though. All of the solutions will aim for desktop, non-portable use, only. A portable version would be too big though. At least from my standpoint it would be to big.
I love your video and currently have the 3900 version of this laptop, I would like to get into contact with you and help out with testing and tuning :D
Great reviews @3DAndStuff. What CAD software do you use? I’m thinking of it for Autodesk Revit and AutoCAD based products also Navisworks and the unreal engine. Revit typically prefers a high single core speed which is typically intels advantage but cinebench single core is very close, then everything else is a win. Would be great if you could oc just a single core.
I use Fusion360 since a couple of months. Love it so far :) well then you would have a better experience when you simply use the 65W Entertainment or 88W Performance mode. But beware, the Performance mode got some really loud fan settings. The Entertainment mode is as loud as every other high tier Workstation/Gaming machine. Up to 51dBA, but for light to mid workloads around 36-45dBA. Performance mode can go up to 61dBA though, usually around 48-56
I can spoiler you a little :) It is possible to get similar performance to the RTX 2070 Super Mobile (roughly 7% more speed). And it's also possible to save some power and reduce heat and turn the Apex 15's GPU down to roughly 90W using undervolting and a little underclocking, it's only 7% slower in this case. The video about that topic is coming in a couple of weeks. Takes sooo long, I know. Sorry, making these videos is only a hobby of mine. :o) If you want to test with your own hardware till then you can download MSI afterburner and play around with the Clock offset, clock/voltage curve and memory clock offset settings. My best RTX 2070 Refresh score (overclocked & undervolted): www.3dmark.com/spy/12467787 My 90W-ish RTX 2070 Refresh score: www.3dmark.com/spy/13342720 Cool thing is the 90W undervolt/underclock only reached 65°C GPU temperature and let the notebook run up to 5dB less noisy (GPU fan was not at 100% as usual). Can recommend that. 93% of original performance is enough for me at least. ;) There is some more headroom to these values of course.
Also ich denke das du deutsch bist:D klasse Videos habe genau den lappi nur von one.de aber gleiches ding und deine Videos haben mir sehr geholfen von lappis habe ich nicht viel plan bin nur meinen gaming pc setup gewöhnt auch die hohen Temperaturen die lappis haben und in Griff bekommen ist schwer aber dank dem Video habe ich die temps auf 87 runter :) danke
great video dude heres a like and a sub! i was wondering if this laptop will support a ryzen 7 2700 cpu i have on hand and i wonder if the bios on this will work on a Clevo NH58AF1 i hear its the same thing but who knows what the manufacturer added to this one over the original clevo version
Thanks mate! As far as I know a Ryzen 2700 works, but no guarantee from me. But to ask the support will be a better choice than listen to me :) And yes the XMG BIOS works on the Clevo NH5xAx boards. But in most cases the guarantee will be gone when you send in a non-XMG brand NH5xAx for repair with a XMG BIOS & EC installed.
Wenn Du ein Spiel suchst, das die CPU gnadenlos fordert, dann probiere mal Star Citizen. Ist für Benchen natürlich blöd, weil nicht final, sondern in Alpha, aber den Effekt könnte man gut zeigen. SC soll sogar auch 16 Kerner unterstützen, habe ich gehört. Danke für das klasse Video! Ich überlege von meinem Omen 15“ mit 8750h und 2070 max q auf das Apex 15 mit 3950x umzusteigen. IW wegen Star Citizen... Für Videoschnitt etc soll es aber auch eingesetzt werden. Klassischer Desktopersatz.
Der Performanceunterschied zum Apex15 wäre für dich garnicht sooo krass, da die Max-Q 2070 nur 10-20% langsamer ist als die reguläre. Warte vielleicht noch etwas länger und steige dann auf die neuen mobilen RTX 3000 um. Die kommen aber sicher erst nächstes Jahr, paar Monate nach Desktop.
Hi 3DAndStuff, Sam Hill here. I noticed that you destroyed my score on TimeSpy recently and I was wondering what you did to maintain such a high GPU clock? I kept running into the 115w limit. Is there a new bios option for this? I am all for a bit of competition ;)
Hi Sam! You can take a look on my recent videos and I think it will be pretty obvious what happened there :) I am above 115W TGP atm achieved with a hardware mod, no unlocked BIOS involved. It's a bit unfair I know, but such benchmark highscores are all filled up with scores from modified systems, sub-zero cooling and such in the desktop segment. It's more rare for notebooks/laptops, but not unusual too when you take a look onto the high end DTR segment. The GPU in my modding laptop is not the best unfortunately, scores could be a little higher :( What's your name on 3dmark?
Sehr informatives Video! Danke dafür. Ich habe das Apex 15 seit ein paar Tagen auch zu Hause. Frage: wie hast Du die RAM Clock ändern können? Das BIOS in meinem Exemplar ist so nackt wie bei der Geburt. Ich dachte, die wollten mal wieder ein paar Features freigeben? Ich finde keine Möglichkeiten zur Aktivierung von XMP Profilen. Wie hast Du das geschafft? Danke!
Die Clevo notebooks unterstützen seit diesem Jahr kein XMP mehr. Frag mich nicht warum. Das BIOS ist immer noch beschnitten, weil Clevo nicht liefert. Entweder nicht will oder nicht kann. Keine Ahnung. Es ist weiterhin geplant mal ein unlocked BIOS anzubieten. Die RAM Einstellungen kannst du per Ryzen Master verändern. Die RAM Settings im Ryzen Master werden dann versteckt in das BIOS geschrieben, bleiben also auch nach Reboot erhalten. Welchen RAM hast du? Wenn du dich nicht rantraust kannst du auch noch paar Tage warten. Nächste Woche kommt das neue Video zum RAM memory tuning. Grüße
Danke für die Tips! Hatte erst die Ballistix 3200 CL16. Die liefen aber nur mit 2666 CL20. Habe zur Überbrückung Samsung 3200 drin (8GB), eigentlich CL 22. Laufen Dank Ryzen Master aber CL20-19-19. 😃 Morgen baue ich dann 32 GB HyperX CL20 ein. Was krass ist, dass im Cinebench20 die 8GB Samsung mit 3200 CL 20-19-19 gut 7500 Punkte bringen, die 32 GB Ballistix mit 2666 CL 20-22-22 „nur“ 7.000. 😳 Ich mein‘... 8GB ist eigentlich echt knapp. Will mal versuchen die HyperX auf 3400 oder 3600 zu bringen. Oder 3200 mit CL19-19-19. mal sehen, was so geht. Interessant ist, dass ich mit Ryzen Master die Ampere von 60-90 auf 75-105 wie der 8auer anheben konnte. 8063 Punkte im CB20 mit den 2666 Ballistix. Leider nimmt Ryzen Master diese Werte aber selbstständig zurück auf 60-90. Mal ja mal nein. Komisch. Allerdings sind 7500 Punkte im CB20 für einen Laptop ja auch nicht sooo schlecht. 😁 Star Citizen läuft aber spürbar besser selbst ohne Afterburner für die 2070 habe ich jetzt 5-10 fps mehr. Obwohl ich von Medium auf High bei den Settings gestellt habe. Und die CPU wird nicht so heiß wie der i7. Schon ganz geil. 🤪 Freue mich auf Dein nächstes Video.
Sehr coole Werte, danke für's teilen! :) Jetzt hab ich dir eben schon in dem angepinnten Kommentar geantwortet. ^^ Naja nochmal kurz paar Kommentare hier. --- Du schreibst: "Was krass ist, dass im Cinebench20 die 8GB Samsung mit 3200 CL 20-19-19 gut 7500 Punkte bringen, die 32 GB Ballistix mit 2666 CL 20-22-22 „nur“ 7.000". Das wundert mich garnicht so sehr. Es kommt tatsächlich nicht nur auf die primären Timings drauf an. CAS ist wichtig, aber ebenso wichtig ist die Kombination aus tRCD (sowohl das RCDRd als auch RCDWr) und tRP. Dann vor allem noch tRAS, tRC und tRFC. Du bist mit 20-19-19 schon einiges fixer als mit 20-22-22. Ich wette die erwähnten Werte tRAS, tRP und tRFC machen auch noch einiges aus. Ich würde echt gern mal die HyperX in meine Finger bekommen. Die schaffen bestimmt auch 3200 CL18, vielleicht sogar CL17. Aber ich kann mir nicht alles leisten. Bin gerade mit dem Umzug einigermaßen durch. :D Du willst die mir nicht zufällig mal ausleihen? ;) Grüße
3DAndStuff , die HyperX gehen vermutlich bald zurück. Bis ich Samsung-Riegel bekomme. Ausleihen ist schlecht, dann habe ich keinen Speicher mehr. 😂 Der 8er geht heute zu XMG zurück, dafür bekomme ich (gegen Aufpreis) 2x16 davon. Wenn ich die auch auf 20-19-19 kriege, wäre das schon mal was. Vielleicht kriege ich auch noch straffere Timings hin. Mal gucken. Die Rechenleistung von dem 3950x im Apex ist eigentlich eh schon abartig. 🤪 Da kann man auch etwas versuchen die Wärme im Griff zu behalten, indem man nicht noch den Speicher overvolted. Obwohl das für einen CB20 Run schon Spaß macht. 😉 Ich habe die HyperX nicht über 2933 MHz bekommen. Obwohl die JEDEC 3200 angegeben sind. Kann es sein, dass man bei denen JEDEC auch die Spannung anheben muss? JEDEC sollte doch eigentlich ohne Tweaks laufen, oder? Angegeben sind die mit 1,2V. Alles was über 2933 war, konnte ich nicht booten. 🙁 Zum Thema Mainboard: Es ist eine neue Rev. drin. Rev 1 war „fehlerhaft“, daher liefen die Ballistix Bzw 3200er nicht. Der 8auer konnte daher nur auf 2666 testen. Jetzt laufen 3200er, und pumpen mal eben 500 Punkte mehr in den ohnehin schon satten CB20 Score. Ist schon irre. Mit JEDEC 3200ern lässt das Apex 15 3950x einen Desktop 3900x lässig stehen. Und der hat dann Wasserkühlung und 3600+ RAM verbaut. 😱 Viele Grüße!
@@TeKieler72 Kannst du mir einen Gefallen tun mal den Memory-Die Typ der HyperX auslesen? Dafür brauchst du den "Taiphoon Burner" (freeware reicht), dann dort in der oberen Leiste auf den "Read" Button gehen. Im erscheinenden Fenster mal bitte die Werte unter "Die Density / Count", "JEDEC DIMM Label" und "Organization" auslesen? Ich tippe auf SKhynix CJR oder Micron E-die. Sind wahrscheinlich keine B-die. Hab auch schon überlegt mir die HyperX mal zum testen in den Warenkorb zu legen :) Der speicher kann im Moment garnicht overvoltet werden :) Sind nur die strafferen Timings und vor allem die höhere Frequenz die mehr Schaltwiderstand, ergo mehr Wärme erzeugen. Viel viel mehr ist es aber nicht. "JEDEC sollte doch eigentlich ohne Tweaks laufen, oder?" Ja und nein. Wenn du einfach nur die primären timings anpasst muss das nicht sein. Die Sekundären und tertiären timings müssen auch entsprechend angepasst werden. Die laufen sicher mit 3200, bestimmt auch mit 3600, wenn man an den richtigen Schrauben dreht. Oft reicht es tRFC auch 360ns-380ns anzuheben. Bei Samsung B-die gehen auch 320ns. Meine G.Skill und die Corsair Vengeance laufen beide mit 3600MHz, obwohl beide nicht dafür ausgelegt sind. Laufen alle immernoch auf 1.2V DRAM voltage Erklär ich dann nochmal im Video ;) Ich finde es bemerkenswert, dass du im Cinebench tatsächlich Unterschiede feststellst. Bei mir und dem 3700X bewege ich mich im Bereich von unter 1%. Liegt vielleicht am limitierten Speichercontroller des 3600, 3700 und 3800 (memory write ist auf ~50% der Bandbreite von 3900 und 3950 beschränkt) Grüße
Not yet! But you can try it out yourself as explained in the video. Use Ryzen Master to set custom PPT values, check if they are applied using HWinfo, run CineBench R20 3 times in a row and write down the results. But as can be seen in the video "Manual OC" is much more effective to save power and reduce heat. You can try out 3.9GHz@1.1V as a starting point. Then try to lower you voltage one step and retest with CineBench R20. If you crash, increase the voltage by 2 steps and keep that as a daily.
No 1.163V was the limit. Start off with 1.175V or maybe even 1.181V. Lower the values step by step and validate every step with CineBench R20 and Prime95. Good luck and have fun :) The 3700X works well in this machine
@@TechModLab Thank you very much for your help :-) I tested with 4.15Ghz @ 1.181V but reached higner temperatures around 90C. I tried one step down at 1.175V but the computer crashed during the second CB20 test. The score got 600 points higher but I guess it's not worth 90C. I'll try to lower the frequency :-) Also it's 30C in the room, I guess it's not helping. Also, I have noticed that for some reason, I have a pretty low CB20 score of 4150 with everything set to default in performance mode.
@@stefanthis1258 Just guessing, but sounds like your thermal contact between cpu and heatpipes is worse than mine is. Could explain the low base score. Do you have an original XMG Apex 15 or other Clevo reseller/brand? XMG uses thermal Grizzly kryonaut which works quite well in my machine
@@TechModLab it is indeed an other vendor in UK called PC Specialist. Well, the thing is that I don't see any core going higher than 3,6ghz while running cinebench in default performance mode.
@@stefanthis1258 Ah, I see. Well 3.6GHz is your base clock. I think boosting is disabled in windows or on your machine. Did you modify anything energy option (regedit hack?) wise in Windows, or had a dive into BIOS? In BIOS there could be an option like "precision boost" off/on. Turn it on.
I have a multimonitor use case, have you tested if the dp signal is out put to the usb-c via alt mode and the mini-dp port at the same time? That would be very helpful!
Hi Folks , my config is R5 3600+2070+2666mhz set to 3000mhz sasmung RAM , I did a bit of OC on my APEX 15 and results are : UNIGINE superposition 1080p HIGH 11699 points, UNIGINE Valley 1080p EXTREME 4835 points , CB r20 : 3550 points on average. Please note Graphic bench results are the absolute top results I could of get and by no means this kind of performance can be kept for long term due to max fan speed (GPU temps never actually exceeded 69 C ). To keep acceptable level of noise and temps, settings must be dialed down but it is still not far off from top results I could of get.I absolutely love my Apex 15 !!!!!! Mostly entertainment mode is sufficient for all my needs to be honest, but it is nice to know there is nice amount of performance headroom under the hood.
I believe you should have opt to 3600 since your not getting the full performance of 3700x or maybe your getting a a decent performance with the cost of thermals, temps was worst when you do gpu + cpu combine loads plus the EC limit and PSU wattage limitation and btw you should also check the VR thermal throtting this occurs on gpu+cpu combine loads which requires repadding. Luckily i opted to 6 cores 12 threads variant removing its power limits with custom bios and vbios, both undervolted, liquid metal, repadding the thermal pads with fujipoly and im pretty sure it can outrun your config on longer runs since im not even getting 80c on cpu and gpu combine loads
Can you further elaborate on that? You claim that by modding the Bios (which Bios?) and vBios ( not sure how you did that on Turing as we have the Max-P variant already...)
Comparison video on a wide variety of CPU options coming. Added new pads to the VRM already, wasn't happy with the appliance either. Liquid metal is a good option, BUT is not advisable because it gets soaked by the copper heatsink (no nickel coating) and need to be reapplied after some months. It does leave traces and could be a potential problem for RMA requests. I am not sure what all the vendors out there say about RMA including LiquidMetal. But as far as I know XMG does not always cover guarantee cases with liquid metal involved. Especially when some LM drops can be seen on the mainboard. I am not a member of XMG, so take my words with care. Can you provide a link to a thread or similar to a modded BIOS? Belive me, my 3700x does not throttle and is performing like an average desktop 3700x (4800 CB20 points) :) Overclocking can take it to 5000-5100 points. I am very happy with the 3700x, since I do not just play games, I also need render performance. The 3700x seems to be a good balance for both tasks. But thanks for your care.
Would be very interested with your tuning of the cpu power how much improvement to battery like can you get idle or "UA-cam" with 3.6Ghz and undervaluing "Power saving mode" so close to clicking order. Intention is replacement desktop but just a tad more battery life would be a big sell..
I does not do much about the overall battery runtime. The other system components draw a significant amount of power all the time. The notebook got only a dedicated graphgics card, the RTX ones. No CPU integrated GPU to save power. I simulated the power draw for watching 1080p60 youtube videos for different conditions. CPU PPT: power draw 3.60GHz @ 0.944V with average 21.3W 4.00GHz @ 1.094V with average 23.9W 4.15GHz @ 1.181V with average 25.1W Full auto (precision boost) with average 26.4W You can only shave of 5W. Combined with the other power consumptions while watching videos of the GPU (11W) + peripherals (display, etc. ... let's say 5W) you suck at least 42W of power out of the battery in your described UA-cam video watching scenario. That means 65Wh battery divided by 42W = 1.5h = 90 minutes on battery. Sorry, the Apex 15 is a desktop inside a notebook case. ;)
Hi Great review. I'm looking for Image processing and 3d model rendering. Is this the best laptop we can get at this price range.. I'm planning for CUK Clevo NH57AF1 in amazon. ryzen 3900 processor. 64gb ram , rtx 2070.
Hello thanks for the update on xmg 15 please can you also run xmrig miner for monero mining and let me know the results? I am very much interested in purchasing this laptop but I want to know how it performs on mining coins. Thanks again for the video!
nope sorry. No time for soo many benchmarks. :) But as you can see the results are very compareable to regular desktop processors. Just look up desktop CPU performance to judge that.
Thank you so much fo this helpful video. I am an Architect and I am thinking to buy an XMG apex 15 as it has strong cpu and good gpu.But I am concerning about Heat throthling, Because I may use it to render Complex Architectural scenes with high geometric details. Please help me decide what cpu and system to buy. I want use two render Engines(Vray3.6 and lumion 10). Do you recommend Quadro Gpu for my work or Geforce is ok?
Heat related throtteling can be a problem if your ambient temperature is high (30°C+). Another problem can be lower quality thermal paste. XMG uses high quality one, but I can't say what other vendors are using. I experienced no CPU thermal throttling in my Apex 15 with many offered CPU options (tested: 3600, 3700x, 3800x, 3900, 3900x, 3950x), but make sure you are okay with high noise levels, because the fans need to dissipate all the heat in some way. But if you use "Entertainment Mode" (65W PPT CPU Limit) the notebook is noticeable quieter and it should be pleasant to work with. The biggest bang for the buck is the Ryzen 3900 if you need high Render performance. The 3700x is the budget option and gives you an overall quieter notebook in idle and light load scenarios (f.e. web browsing). The performance difference between those two is CB20 are 4800 points in CB20 for the 3700X and 6400 points in CB20 for the Ryzen 3900. That means you got a performance uplift by 33% in applications which can utilize all cores. Make sure your software can utilize that many cores. Regarding the GPU I can say that the RTX 2070 exceeds the requirements for the "recommended" hardware of your named software "Ilumion" version 10.5. But does not match the high-end requirements. Read their "System Requirements" description and make sure if you are okay with that. I can't decide for you :) Think about what you want and compare products in question.
Yes, the pricepoint compared to overall performance is great. But not all games need that much CPU power. So it strongly depends on your style of game. If it's not using as much CPU power as the Apex 15 offers you could also purchase a computer with a slower CPU and similar GPU and you would save some more money. Strongly depends on your needs.
@@TechModLab How do I set the voltage for the stress tests? Although 3950X and 64GB RAM are worn, they are forced to shut down within 16 minutes when tested on AIDA64. www.aida64.com/products/screenshot/system-stability-test This is the site you mentioned, right? Only CPU, cache, and memory are selected.
@@aaass200 Yes that's the stress test. But I only chose closely CPU related settings: CPU, FPU, Cache. Your crashes are propably related to your memory. What settings it is running on? You can use ZenStates to set fixed all-core frequency and voltage. But disable the ClevoControlCenter in this case. Make sure you disabled the Clevo service (Windows services). Otherwise it may revert your settings to 88W PBO
3DAndStuff Well, I don't know why. 😅😅 All CPU/FPU/Cache is enabled today. I took the stress test and it was over 16 minutes. It's been 60 minutes. As you said, RAM could be a shutdown problem. But I passed the 10th anniversary of TM5. That's weird... Anyway, the progress report... The CPU temperature is 70-84 degrees. Package: 89.36w. Key: 65.09w. Voltage and frequency settings. The frequency is 3500. The voltage is 0.962. (Measured from 0.900 to 0.919 in a test environment) (Use Hwmoitor)
Bisschen schneller sollte die 2070 schon gegenüber der 2060 sein. Vielleicht so ca 10-15%, die CPU macht bei Videoschnitt und Videorendering aber immer noch mehr aus. Also wenn es dir wirklich nur darum geht, dann reicht wohl auch die 2060! Schau mal mit deiner aktuellen Hardware wieviel Video Memory von Davinci Resolve genutzt wird. Wenn es schon jetzt Richtung 6GB VRAM geht, dann doch eher die 2070, da hast du mit 8GB noch etwas Headroom.
@@TechModLab Danke. Ja, es ist eher VRAM ein Grund die 2070 zu nehmen. Selbst schauen kann ich leider nicht mehr, meine Grafikkarte wird nicht mehr bei der aktuellen Version unterstützt und hat eh nur 2GB VRAM. Deswegen wollte ich so langsam auch was neues kaufen.
With these (fast) benchmarks the laptop can handle, but with 4.15Ghz in editing / rendering a video (for example) as the temperature increases, do these clocks get fixed after one hour?!?, or down? Thx!
Not sure what you mean exactly, but the temps are fine with 4.15GHz and 1.163-1.175V all core overclock. Temps stay under 85°C even running long term rendering.
I just started tried to start tuning the xmg. I installed zenstates and ryzen master. Unfortunately the controllcenter software seems to overright everything. I tried to put down the core Voltage and have synced 4K ghz on all cores. But i cant bring it down. So i suggest i have to uninstall the control Center Software?
No it's enough to deactivate the "Control Center Hotkey Service" in windows services. You can still use the "fan speed settings" and "LED keyboard setting" App which comes with the ControlCenter. The only thing you can't do is to use the power modes (performance, entertainment, energy saving, silent). They will be gone.
Since BIOS version 1.07.07 there are BIOS Manual OC settings (fixed voltage, fixed frequency) in BIOS ("AMD UI"), but the settings are very limited at the moment. But seem to be useful for higher core count processors. Max setable freq is 3900MHz. I think future BIOS will improve that. And the software Zenstates seem to be available for Linux too and is based on command line Python. Not tested if it works though.
Hi. Hope you reading this. I have the Problem that i bought a Ryzen 5 5600x for an Upgrade. Currently using a Ryzen 7 3700x in this Mashine. As soon as i switch the CPU i get a black screen after starting the Laptop. The Keyboard lights up and the CPU Cooling Fan runs for a few seconds. What did i do wrong? How can i make the Apex 15 recognize the new CPU? Regards from Switzerland.
the XMG APEX 15 from 2020 with B450 chipset does not support Ryzen 5000 (Zen 3). A new BIOS AGESA version would be required, but Clevo refused to work on an update, because their support from AMD's software engineers is very limited. If you want an upgrade you have to buy the latest APEX 15 MAX with B550 chipset.
Hi. Mine has the Problem that the Clevo Control Center 3.46 wont apply any custom Voltages and Frequencys. Why is that. I did a fresh and clean install of Win 11. Somehow when i use Ryzen Master the Settings i make there get resetted after a few seconds of running a Program or Game. What am i missing? Everything is up to date. Regards from Switzerland
Your settings get reset by the "Control Center Hotkey Service" running in the background. If you wish that your settings do not get reset you need to deactivate this service or set it to "manual" and additionally deactivate the "Fnkey" apllication in the autostart menu of the task manager. by the way i highly recommend ZenStates to apply your custom settings instread of Ryzenmaster. RyzenMaster got no "auto load settings at boot" feature, but ZenStates does.
@@TechModLab Sorry for the late reply. Will check it out tomorrow during Home Office. I send you a new Problem in the comments. Maybe you can help me on this one aswell. Kind regards.
Maybe. I am a private user, no tech review channel with employees and stuff. I bought my Apex 15 from my own money. But MAYBEEEE I can get my hands on some CPUs to test. Can't promise though.
Anybody done DPC latency checks on this XMG Apex 15 with a Ryzen processor? I'm very interested in getting one for audio production (need lots of cores and low DPC latency). @3DAndStuff would you be willing to run the DPC latency checker on your system and let it run for about 30 minutes (60 minutes would be even better though)?
"Single core loads are very rare in reality anyway" - hahaha, I just had a good chuckle at that. Whether you start up an application, you watch a video, you compile a code base that isn't optimized for multi-core building, you play games and so on and so on - that's all either single core or at least mostly not well optimized for multi-core use. Just watch hwinfo while doing such everyday tasks. It'll probably max out the boost every couple of seconds.
Good comment! Criticism is important to improve things. "at least mostly not well optimized for multi-core use" I agree. But I meant single core load specifically, so only 1 thread. To be honest, we both are right and wrong. There are applications, games and compiling situations in which single core performance is king, BUT those are not usual. And just to clarify for other readers, processes do not equal thread count. Applications start up multithreaded, 4k video playback is a tiny task to these kind of processors+GPU anyway, all relevant modern games are multithreaded (even if they only use 6T or less), programming projects with just one compile object may be common for smaller projects which compile in less than 5 seconds anyway, but nearly non-existent for all compile jobs with multiple objects/classes, which are most common. But true, it does not apply to all cases. Mostly games are not well optimized for higher core counts yet. Witcher 3 (which is quite old) for example seems to use 4 threads or less. That's not 16T possible with the 3700X, not even 8T without SMT. Too bad. But further increasing core counts should increase that in future as well (so I hope ;) ). Let's say single core speed does matter, yes. But will become less important due to better multi core optimizations in the next few years. . At least for gaming the single boost seems to be not very important as you can see with a look on the FPS plots with 99th min, 95th min FPS in this video (FPS which reflect micro stuttering quite well). The All-Core Manual OC variants are faster or at least on par with the boosting PBO modes. Except for Witcher 3, which does not reflect anything clearly useful. . *edit* Just tried to find more information on core utilization by the games used in this video. Witcher 3, roughly 3 cores. SOTTR 6 cores, Anno 1800 not very helpful information so far, could be 4-8 cores. More than or equal to 4 cores utilization should explain the low usefulness of single core boost in those games.
Not all-core, no. But with the regular boost mode (default & PBO using power modes via ControlCenter) you'll get the advertised boost frequencies. But as I said in the video, I can highly recommend the all-core frequency "ManualOC" tuning. The temperature & noise benefit is huge. I can't recommend 3900 and 3950X for gaming in this case, though. The 3600 and 3700X are better suited for gamers inside this notebook, because of the higher overall power draw seen with the 3900 and 3950X. More details in the upcoming video.
@@TechModLab I got 4.2 ghz at most ..never crossed that and it peaked at 95C with CPU demanding games..I sent the laptop back and now getting a desktop after my refund...
@@kharaf9920 which CPU? Did you do a manual overclock to 4.2 or was it boosting behaviour? You send it back because of the high temperatures? Could be bad thermal paste though. Original XMG or other vendor?
@@TechModLab I didn't manually overclock it. It was using the performance mods with max fan It was hitting 4.1 to 4.2 ghz I sent it back because I thought a desktop cpu with a beefier laptop would allow me to run games at low temps but I was highly wrong At idle the temp was 70 C in a 25 C room. The product was purchased from amazon Italy for 1600 eur ryzen 3700 x with rtx 2060 . Moreover the performance wasn't so great ..couldn't hit 100fps with most games. Finally this was my 4th laptop...I fried the cpu of 3 previous laptops last one being the asus rog strix scar II..
BAD! ;) No really, depends on the configuration and load. Webbrowsing+VideoStreaming around 60-80 minutes. In Idle 80-100 minutes. This laptop got no power saving integrated GPU inside the CPU like found on many other thin and light laptops. And the desktop CPU is no power saver, too. This laptop is a desktop replacer. It is made for all who need that unseen power, content creators, for renderingf, video editing, and so on. For gaming it is great too, but only for peeps who not want to play on battery.
@@TechModLab Thank you for the reply! Oh well, that is indeed really bad... I saw a lot of the reviews with the top of the line 3950X and I thought it was bad because of the choice of CPU. But if the 3700X too only last for at most a couple of hours, I'll have to refrain from picking this one up, I guess. I was hoping for something around 4-6h idle, silly me lol Have you ever compared this "laptop" 3700X with the 4800H by any chance? I am starting to think that maybe a Clevo or TongFang with the 4800H would better suit my usage.
@@JeffBastian Nope i did not, but if you okay with a little less CPU performance than the 3700X and some less FPS in games you are okay with all those available 4800H/4900H 2060 laptops. Unfortunately this is the only laptop with AMD CPU + RTX 2070 available as far as I know. So it is the fastest one you can get with AMD CPU
@@TechModLab indeed, gpu-wise it is the fastest. But after reading about the battery life, i don't think I can live with that lol I also travel quite a bit, so having a powerful laptop is nice if I want to work remotely, doing computational and rendering stuffs, but battery-wise I think it is in favor of the 4800h 4900h indeed. Afterall, I don't really want this laptop that I'm getting to be a desktop replacement, more like an additional machine for work on the go. But anyway, thanks again for the reply!
@@JeffBastian True! But I am glad you found a good conclusion for yourself. Better to find out what you really want instead of regret afterwards. I think the Asus G14 could be a good choice. 9h on battery while websurfing. Sounds good to me. But beware the G14 runs hot though
I don't get why PC enthusiasts are often so keen on low temperatures, calling them "healthy". Have you ever taken a look at the temps of a MacBook? ;) And as Tom has already pointed out - even NVIDIA themselves seem to be just fine with temperatures in the 80-87 degree range. So... why demand more fan noise? If you want it to run cooler, you can always crank up the fans through the custom curves?
Because I saw a lot of my computer components dying due to extended temperature stress in the last 20 years ;) And I personally like to extend the lifetime of my components as far as possible. Usually I want to decide myself when to buy a new computer, and not let the computer decide by dying early. But true! The notebook could focus on lower fan noise by rising the fan-temperature-target to 80°C for example. But the RMA rates will increase too. Heat kill components earlier, that's not an invention by myself, it's reality. If I have the choice to run my components at 75°C (with loud fans) and it dies after 8 years, OR at 85°C (with quieter fans) and it dies after 4 years, I would personally prefer the 8 year variant. Just as disclaimer, those numbers are made up as an example. But that's only true for me because I am not focused on quiet operation. I am used to loud notebooks to be honest. I got a bulky MSI GT70 before (51/53dBa). It is a question of personal preference :) To summarize it in short... In the end the hardware should be fine running at 87°C. But as I said, the hardware will die earlier than when operated cooler. Impossible to say when.
@@TechModLab Interesting. I've never heard of or experienced a CPU/GPU dying because it ran too hot for too long in my last 20 years. All I've seen where CPUs that accidentally got crushed back when manufacturers hadn't figured out safe heat sink mounting methods yet and motherboards and hard drives suddenly dying for no apparent reason. That's it. But maybe you've used more devices than me...
@@notthere83 Don't get me wrong, you have a valid point! To be honest hardware is more robust these days, mainly because there are more advanced thottling mechanisms. But I remember I killed every GPU I had 10-15 years ago with overclocking. Had no idea what I was doing, I was young. At least they lasted for 2 years or so haha :D Today I prefer to be on the safe side. I checked out the Asus G14 in another reviewer's video. It get's insanely hot! More than 100°C on the CPU. That can't be "healthy" as I would say, but time will prove. Maybe those processors just can handle it. I don't know. I just try to be careful :) But surely I also would love to see a "temperature target" slider in the control center. So every user can set their preferred component temperature and therefore can easily decrease fan noise if needed. Fans would spin slower when they are target to maintain 80°C instead of 70°C like it is set now.
@@TechModLab Absolutely (temperature targets and fans). Because the thing is - the Apex 15 doesn't HAVE to be as noisy as most reviewers make it out to be. The pre-defined profiles are just bad (even though they were even worse in the past, I guess). Bad EDC/TDC settings and fan curves. I installed Obsidian Fan Control and with only about 20% CPU fan and 30% GPU fan, while using the Entertainment profile (3950X), I got an idle temp of 49 deg, 72 in prime95 and ~82 in my "custom mixed single core load stress test". I think that's very reasonable. And that only causes constant 30 dB, barely audible, no annoying ramping up/down. Clevo seems to be crippling their own machine...
@@TechModLab These are btw temperatures from my current, completely uncustomized HP laptop with an 8th gen mobile Intel CPU (prime95 - first half 1 thread, second half 2): imgur.com/mfl0mmr That's of course an unrealistic workload but... even just checking hwinfo as I'm typing this, I see a spike in the 90-100 deg. range as well as multiple ones from 70-80, with the low end being 55-60.
New video is coming next week! :)
Got some interesting results on tuning memory. The G.Skill one, but also Corsair Vengeance and Crucial Ballistix. Stay tuned.
@Stereo Rainbow i guess the CPU undervolting with fixed frequency is a good starting point to reduce heat and noise :) The settings to choose depends on your use-case of course. Games benefit from higher clocks, renderers just want stable settings with moderate temperatures. You could try 3.9 GHz fixed as daily. Maybe at 1.09V to 1.14V or something.
Hätte ich die Ballistix behalten sollen? Habe die grade zurück gegeben und gegen HyperX getauscht, weil die im JEDEC schon 3200 mHz bringen. Dafür nur CL 20 statt CL16 der Ballistix. Wobei die die CL16 nur im XMP bringen. JEDEC auch nur CL20.
HyperX haben im XMP CL17.
Wird spannend.
Wäre super, wenn man die auf 3600 kriegen könnte. 🤷🏼♂️
Das ist die Frage aller Fragen. die erreichbaren Timings der Module können erheblich von den Herstellerangaben abweichen. Ich erinnere mich da z.B. an das erste Video zum Apex 15 vom @der8auer er hatte die Crucial Ballistix 3200 verwendet, hatte sie aber nicht auf 3200 bekommen. In der Zwischenzeit gab es ein neues BIOS und wahrscheinlich auch eine neue Mainboardrevision. Ich denke 3200 sollten gehen. Aber sie sind mit 1.35V für 3200 CL16 spezifiziert, nicht 1.2V. Was bleibt also übrig?
Interessant ist nun, dass ich meine original zum Apex 15 bestellten Corsair Vengeance 2666 CL18-19-19 auf ebenso vergleichbar straffe Timings bekommen habe wie die G.Skill 3200 Cl18. Theoretisch ist 3200 CL18 bis CL16 also möglich, egal ob vom Hersteller spezifiziert oder nicht.
Wichtig ist natürlich immer der verbaute Memory Die. Die "besten" und "beliebtesten" bei Memory Overclockern sind Samsung B-die, SKhynix CJR, und Micron E-die. Solange die in ausreichender Qualität verbaut sind spricht nichts gegen relativ gutes OC-Potential. Binning seitens der Speicherhersteller bzw. DRAM-Stick-Hersteller ist auch noch ein Faktor.
Achso und ja, 3600MHz sind auch möglich. Die G.Skill Ripjaws laufen damit einigermaßen stabil bei 3600 CL19-21-22-43-67-648-1T. Das geht sicher auch mit den Corsair Vengeance. Bei den Ballistix muss ich noch schauen, hab die leider noch nicht erhalten. ABER, dafür muss die SoC Spannung auf mindestens 1.05V, eher 1.10V hoch, was die Leistungsaufnahme des SoC / IO Die der CPU erhöht. Statt 10W im Idle verbraucht das SoC / IO Die dann allein plötzlich gern mal 12-13W. Ich bleibe lieber bei 3200-3333MHz mCLK mit SoC 0.975V und begnüge mich mit 8.6W SoC-Leistungsaufnahme :) Ich mag's kühl. Flott ist das trotzdem schon.
@Stereo Rainbow in this case you misunderstood :) Undervolting is king, but only in combination with a fixed frequency. It can reduce the temoeratures quite a lot.
Watch the video again, i explained how it works and how to apply for daily use (software zenstates)
****Grabs popcorn****
Can't wait !
Hi, XMG here. Let me comment on some points made in the video. I will concentrate them around 3 specific segments of the review.
#1
2:50 | new BIOS: DANGEROUS "Quiet" power mode?
The GPU does not throttle in this mode because NVIDIA does not have any API for OEM-controlled GPU throttling. GPU speed is purely controlled by NVIDIA's driver, the maximum VBIOS power limit (115W in this laptop) and by GPU Temp Target. For GPU Temp Target, NVIDIA allows a range of 75° to 87°C. This target can only be set once - it's a global value. NVIDIA does not allow to change GPU Temp Target on-the-fly. So the GPU Temp Target for Silent Mode is the same as it is for Performance Mode. The ODM picks 87°C GPU Temp Target in pretty much all of the laptop. Currently, the only laptop in our portfolio that opts to use the lowest allowed GPU Temp Target at 75°C is XMG FUSION 15.
In other words: the CPU/GPU temperatures reached in Furmark+Prime in "Quiet" mode are still within safe limit as deemed by NVIDIA and our ODM. While it might be desirable to have lower temperatures in a desktop replacement like XMG APEX 15, NVIDIA intentional lack of flexibility makes this a very difficult undertaking. To get a silent mode with lower power consumption, manual FPS Limiting is currently the only option.
Another challenge is the fact that the EC does not have enough storage for 4 different fan curves. Instead, the Quiet profile is usually an Offset of the Entertainment fan curve, with some additional rules on top. We will have a look into how we could improve this fan table under high loads, especially in warm environments.
#2
4:25 | new BIOS: future tuning options
The project of providing a more unlocked BIOS is currently stalling due to some internal issue that I can't publicly discuss due to NDA. We still have our eyes on providing more option one way or another and we'll try another push on this matter soon. The idea is to limit the set of options to a more "reasonable" limit while still minimizing the amount of R&D work and RMA risk for our ODM.
Regarding the comparison to other laptops in our portfolio: other laptops based on Intel platform don't have fully unlocked BIOS either. The main feature in our Intel-based laptops is a convenient CPU Undervolting (Voltage Offset) option. It has great benefits on Intel's platform (at least up until Coffee Lake) while having very little risk and very little validation complexity.
The kind of unlocked BIOS that we had in mind for XMG APEX 15 (as seen in der8auer's video) is so far unprecedented for any of our laptops (which makes it such a struggle in the grander scheme of things).
Commenting on the wish list:
- The option to modify the maximum battery charge limit already exists. It's called "FlexiCharger" in the BIOS and is found under Advanced Chipset options. It's disabled by default and allow down to 40% lower limit and 60% upper limit. It's been tested, it works. It's been a standard feature in this ODM's products ever since we heavily lobbied to introduce this feature in the year 2015.
- We concede that DRAM Tuning would be a major boon to the system and it's on our "tba" list for a more unlocked BIOS.
- No plans for manual CCX Overclocking in BIOS or Control Center because it might exceed the scope of what we can do with AMD's standard set of BIOS options. But the results from the reviewer's fixed All-Core overclock are duly noted.
#3
11:16 | CPU OC/UV: fan/temperature behavior improvements
The request to use CPU/Die-Average is duly noted but there is little chance that our ODM will follow this request. It seems like they are following AMD's recommended standard which is supposed to protect against CPU hotspots under fully-loaded situations. We have adapted our fan curves to be a little bit more tolerant, so they shouldn't produce too many excessive CPU fan spikes in low load situations.
# Additional remarks
Wow, this is a great and valuable review! Especially the detailed look at the Performance vs. Power Consumption Graph (finding that sweet spot at 48W power limit) is extremely helpful and should be an example for other tech review platforms to follow. We are looking forward to Part 2 and 3.
Anyone who wishes to stay up to date about future updates on XMG APEX 15, please subscribe to this UA-cam channel and follow our XMG_gg sub-reddit. Thank you! Freel free to post your questions under this comment.
// Tom
Thanks Tom! As always great community service we see from XMG. :)
#2
FlexiCharger is available? Oops, sorry missed that. Good to hear that feature is already available!
Too bad that there is no easy way to enable per CCX OC at the moment. The potential is great. But I will not give up and always hope. ;)
#3
Already thought about that these TctlTdie spikes make sense to improve boosting behaviour and reduce hotspots. But still, they are annoying for notebook cooling solutions. Too bad that there is no alternative offered by AMD.
Tom are you able to comment on the suggestion I made to the video concerning water cooling. Read, the comment, I think it would be relatively easy to implement and could be made to work without any other modification to the laptop than cutting a hole in the bottom cover.
Would this void the guarantee?
Is there a way that you would not consider this hole voiding the guarantee, provided one does not hack the software or modify the hardware in another way?
I'd appreciate you guys looking into this.
Thanks, Franziska
Hey, is it possible to use a Ryzen 5 1600 with this laptop, I'm getting the bare bones kit and this is the only processor I have on hand. What about Ryzen 4000 support?
Adata 2x32gb CL 22 3200mhz ram work?
@@teamdas3dstudio368 Generally speaking, I can't give blanket statements on hardware modifications and water cooling. As soon as you cut holes into the cover, you might void your warranty. I mean sure, if you know what you're doing, feel free to share your detailed plans with us beforehand to get approval. // Tom
We can say this is definitely the best review channel about XMG products, they should provide you other CPUs for testing (and pay you! ;) ). Thank you for what you're doing, looking forward to seeing the next episodes.
P.s. I am still undecided about the CPU (mainly for 3D sims and rendering, e.g. Houdini and c4d sims, particles, fluids, etc) but I'll get through it.
Thank you very much :) Happy to hear you like it. Good news, I will receive some CPUs for testing in the next days. But I have to return them of course, still not paid. ;)
I hope I can take a look on the 3600, 3600XT, 3700X, 3800X, 3900, 3900X and 3950X and compare them with each other inside the Apex 15. Stay tuned.
@@TechModLab Awesome, great news! The review you made is great btw
Thanks for your analysis! Looking forward for the next parts, especially about the fan noise
Sun Ron Boh This is actually the biggest factor holding me back from purchasing this beast mode workstation.
Nice review mate, very detailed !
This confirms what i thought, I am considering the XMG Core 17 with 4800H, and for gaming, the CPU is not used so much, so the best thing to do is limit the TDP of the CPU and put the GPU to the max, this way you get better temps and performance, since in the laptops they have some shared heat pipes.
I'm very interested in the part 3, on how to undervolt / overclock the GPU. I wonder if it's possible to go above the wattage limit of the cards if the temperatures and the PSU allows it...
This might change though, with next gen consoles, games might become more and more CPU heavy and taking advantage of that multi-core capacity !
Keep up the good work !
The power limit can't be extended without a modded BIOS. So no, but you can easily undervolt you GPU since pascal (or maybe even maxwell?) series with MSI afterburner. The regular GPU clock slider has always been a direct modification of the GPU clock, but since pascal (or maxwell, not sure) it does not simply increase gpu clock, it decreases voltage, which lead to less power draw of the GPU core and so the GPU core automatically clocks higher to fit into it's power target. It's a bit odd. It undervolts and overclocks at the same time.
@@TechModLab yeah sadly... there was a bios tweaker for the the previous ones, but not anymore.
I was just looking at videos of that, i will wait and see the results you get in the part 3 though. Very interesting review 👍
Great job on this, most helpful videos on this laptop by far.
thanks!
Also looking forward to the fan noise video! Both your vids are fantastic and super helpful
.. Thank you! There's a special offer on this in my country til 30 June so here's hoping you can get them out by then!
Can't promise that unfortunately. What are your questions? Maybe I can help you out if I can't publish those videos till then.
@@TechModLab thank you! Really just one question. What's the noise level like on the 'quiet' mode? I think I'm happy with anything around 35 dba. My use case? I would like to edit photos in bed with my baby in the room 😀 some noise is actually desirable, but not too loud as to disturb her! The rest of the time will be used at a desktop for mainly video editing and fan noise shouldn't be a concern really!
@@Lgun229 The idle noise is in fact 35-36dBa. You want to use it on battery in bed? Don't expect too much on battery time in this case. Configured with the 3700X it maxes out at 90 minutes in idle and up to 75minutes in light load situations. With ManualOC+undervolting shown in this video I managed to drop down to an idle power consumption of 35W instead of 45W, so around 110 minutes on battery in idle. But can't confirm that with tests yet!
The 3900 and 3950X prove to be more power hungry, especially in idle. I read something about 60W stock, that's a lot compared to my 45W stock. But I think it should be possible to push that down to around 50, maybe even 45W with some Manual OC + undervolting.
@@TechModLab thank you again for taking the trouble to respond! Yes I will have it connected the overwhelming majority of the time, so my primary concern was fan noise. Yes I think the 3700x seems like the sweet spot!
Thank you for another very informative video. Can't wait to receive my "beast" in a few days ;-)
I take the liberty to post my message under your last video once more here, as it might help some folks tackling potential overheating in a relativly simple way.
I hope you do not mind:
"...Just got a thought looking at the video and the loud spinning fans, as I also saw some videos on water cooling laptops and the heat pipe arrangement of the Apex 15, how about this:
You can see the heat pipes on the Apex 15 are directly under the lower cover (1:15 to 3:50 in the video). For hardware hackers It might be an option to just cut the plastic housing open there and than create a kind of upstand for the laptop which has a large watercooled plate at the same spot.
Than just pose the laptop on that cooled plate. Copper to copper. One might not even need thermal paste as the area is very large. It might even work to some extend to just put the laptop without plastic base cut on such a plate, still I do wonder about condensation issues than.
Besides cutting the plastic base cover open that would not make other mods to the Apex 15 necessary. You could even add a cover to close the hole when using the Apex 15 on the go.
Thoughts & comments are welcome.
A suggestion to XMG, perhaps it might be an idea to create something like this as a sort of docking station. Ship it together with a modified bottom cover than. Alternatively you could add a small easily removable area in the lower cover to all Apex 15 to be sold in the future..."
Hi Franziska, saw your other comment addressed to XMG, but I will answer here. I consider to design a more or less complex docking station for the Apex 15 after those review videos. You can see the hint "watermarked" at the end of the video ;) Originally I planned to design the docking station primarily to lower the fan noise, so inclose the intake and exhaust air in chambers. But your suggestion sound interesting too. Maybe I will take a look on a water cooling extension (copper block with thermal pads, for continuous use). Thanks for the comment! I have the feeling that the community around the Clevo NH57AF1 / XMG Apex 15 is pretty techie. I love it! ;)
Have to ask for a replacement bottom cover though :P
@@TechModLab Thanks. Great. One more from my end, I think it would be wise to try to make the upstand under which the thermal copper pad is located from a wire material (or similar if printed in 3D) as this would ensure that the original airflow of the laptop is unhindered. We do not want to create a sort of hot air collector underneath. If you (or we?) can achieve a docking station which does not need to modify the laptop apart from the modified bottom cover, we might have the best chances to keep the warranties alive.
I have a couple more ideas, migh be worth switching to email for this.
@@teamdas3dstudio368 I will come back on this later. First finish those review videos :) I have a couple of ideas to make this work, too:
Version 1 will be good to reduce noise, because this is obviously the most anticipated concern about the Apex 15. Cooling performance is great, but the fans (especially the GPU one) torture your ears.
Version 2 will sort of allow an inlay of copper cooling components inside the docking station and make thermal contact with the heatsink. There will be need to modify your backplate or buy a spare one, though.
All of the solutions will aim for desktop, non-portable use, only. A portable version would be too big though. At least from my standpoint it would be to big.
@@TechModLab any news on the other videos? Thanks!
@@marcofrancischello676 new video is coming next week!
Thanks a lot. that's quite a lot of work, and very informative. Have you tested DPC latency ? (with your custom settings ?)
good point. Will consider to do that in one of the following videos. Thanks!
I love your video and currently have the 3900 version of this laptop, I would like to get into contact with you and help out with testing and tuning :D
stay tuned. Maybe I get the chance to take a look on the 3900 and other CPUs to test and compare them regarding OC, UV, efficiency ;)
Hey, I got 3900 recently and struggling to find optimal settings. Mind sharing yours? Thanks :)
Great reviews @3DAndStuff. What CAD software do you use? I’m thinking of it for Autodesk Revit and AutoCAD based products also Navisworks and the unreal engine. Revit typically prefers a high single core speed which is typically intels advantage but cinebench single core is very close, then everything else is a win. Would be great if you could oc just a single core.
I use Fusion360 since a couple of months. Love it so far :) well then you would have a better experience when you simply use the 65W Entertainment or 88W Performance mode. But beware, the Performance mode got some really loud fan settings. The Entertainment mode is as loud as every other high tier Workstation/Gaming machine. Up to 51dBA, but for light to mid workloads around 36-45dBA. Performance mode can go up to 61dBA though, usually around 48-56
Kann es kaum erwarten, dass meiner endlich ankommt
Very curious about the gpu tuning. Can't wait to check what can be done with that 2070
I can spoiler you a little :)
It is possible to get similar performance to the RTX 2070 Super Mobile (roughly 7% more speed). And it's also possible to save some power and reduce heat and turn the Apex 15's GPU down to roughly 90W using undervolting and a little underclocking, it's only 7% slower in this case.
The video about that topic is coming in a couple of weeks. Takes sooo long, I know. Sorry, making these videos is only a hobby of mine. :o)
If you want to test with your own hardware till then you can download MSI afterburner and play around with the Clock offset, clock/voltage curve and memory clock offset settings.
My best RTX 2070 Refresh score (overclocked & undervolted): www.3dmark.com/spy/12467787
My 90W-ish RTX 2070 Refresh score: www.3dmark.com/spy/13342720
Cool thing is the 90W undervolt/underclock only reached 65°C GPU temperature and let the notebook run up to 5dB less noisy (GPU fan was not at 100% as usual). Can recommend that. 93% of original performance is enough for me at least. ;)
There is some more headroom to these values of course.
Great video, can’t wait for the memory one!
Also ich denke das du deutsch bist:D klasse Videos habe genau den lappi nur von one.de aber gleiches ding und deine Videos haben mir sehr geholfen von lappis habe ich nicht viel plan bin nur meinen gaming pc setup gewöhnt auch die hohen Temperaturen die lappis haben und in Griff bekommen ist schwer aber dank dem Video habe ich die temps auf 87 runter :) danke
great video dude heres a like and a sub!
i was wondering if this laptop will support a ryzen 7 2700 cpu i have on hand
and i wonder if the bios on this will work on
a Clevo NH58AF1 i hear its the same thing but who knows what the manufacturer added to this one over the original clevo version
Thanks mate! As far as I know a Ryzen 2700 works, but no guarantee from me. But to ask the support will be a better choice than listen to me :) And yes the XMG BIOS works on the Clevo NH5xAx boards. But in most cases the guarantee will be gone when you send in a non-XMG brand NH5xAx for repair with a XMG BIOS & EC installed.
nice vid. got the gigabyte a5 k1 and i dont think ive seen a laptop with a more limited bios. sickening really.
i can't wait till part 2 and 3
part 2 coming next week! :)
Wenn Du ein Spiel suchst, das die CPU gnadenlos fordert, dann probiere mal Star Citizen.
Ist für Benchen natürlich blöd, weil nicht final, sondern in Alpha, aber den Effekt könnte man gut zeigen.
SC soll sogar auch 16 Kerner unterstützen, habe ich gehört.
Danke für das klasse Video!
Ich überlege von meinem Omen 15“ mit 8750h und 2070 max q auf das Apex 15 mit 3950x umzusteigen. IW wegen Star Citizen...
Für Videoschnitt etc soll es aber auch eingesetzt werden. Klassischer Desktopersatz.
Der Performanceunterschied zum Apex15 wäre für dich garnicht sooo krass, da die Max-Q 2070 nur 10-20% langsamer ist als die reguläre. Warte vielleicht noch etwas länger und steige dann auf die neuen mobilen RTX 3000 um. Die kommen aber sicher erst nächstes Jahr, paar Monate nach Desktop.
Im TimeSpy komme ich mit dem Apex zzt auf 8500 Punkte gegenüber dem Omen 7200. Das ist schon ein guter Zuwachs. 😉
Hi 3DAndStuff, Sam Hill here. I noticed that you destroyed my score on TimeSpy recently and I was wondering what you did to maintain such a high GPU clock? I kept running into the 115w limit. Is there a new bios option for this? I am all for a bit of competition ;)
Hi Sam! You can take a look on my recent videos and I think it will be pretty obvious what happened there :) I am above 115W TGP atm achieved with a hardware mod, no unlocked BIOS involved. It's a bit unfair I know, but such benchmark highscores are all filled up with scores from modified systems, sub-zero cooling and such in the desktop segment. It's more rare for notebooks/laptops, but not unusual too when you take a look onto the high end DTR segment.
The GPU in my modding laptop is not the best unfortunately, scores could be a little higher :(
What's your name on 3dmark?
@@TechModLab my name on 3D mark is just "Sam Hill" :)
great video !!!!! cant wait for the next vid
Sehr informatives Video! Danke dafür.
Ich habe das Apex 15 seit ein paar Tagen auch zu Hause.
Frage: wie hast Du die RAM Clock ändern können? Das BIOS in meinem Exemplar ist so nackt wie bei der Geburt. Ich dachte, die wollten mal wieder ein paar Features freigeben?
Ich finde keine Möglichkeiten zur Aktivierung von XMP Profilen.
Wie hast Du das geschafft?
Danke!
Die Clevo notebooks unterstützen seit diesem Jahr kein XMP mehr. Frag mich nicht warum.
Das BIOS ist immer noch beschnitten, weil Clevo nicht liefert. Entweder nicht will oder nicht kann. Keine Ahnung. Es ist weiterhin geplant mal ein unlocked BIOS anzubieten.
Die RAM Einstellungen kannst du per Ryzen Master verändern. Die RAM Settings im Ryzen Master werden dann versteckt in das BIOS geschrieben, bleiben also auch nach Reboot erhalten. Welchen RAM hast du? Wenn du dich nicht rantraust kannst du auch noch paar Tage warten. Nächste Woche kommt das neue Video zum RAM memory tuning.
Grüße
Danke für die Tips!
Hatte erst die Ballistix 3200 CL16. Die liefen aber nur mit 2666 CL20.
Habe zur Überbrückung Samsung 3200 drin (8GB), eigentlich CL 22.
Laufen Dank Ryzen Master aber CL20-19-19. 😃
Morgen baue ich dann 32 GB HyperX CL20 ein.
Was krass ist, dass im Cinebench20 die 8GB Samsung mit 3200 CL 20-19-19 gut 7500 Punkte bringen, die 32 GB Ballistix mit 2666 CL 20-22-22 „nur“ 7.000. 😳
Ich mein‘... 8GB ist eigentlich echt knapp.
Will mal versuchen die HyperX auf 3400 oder 3600 zu bringen.
Oder 3200 mit CL19-19-19. mal sehen, was so geht.
Interessant ist, dass ich mit Ryzen Master die Ampere von 60-90 auf 75-105 wie der 8auer anheben konnte. 8063 Punkte im CB20 mit den 2666 Ballistix.
Leider nimmt Ryzen Master diese Werte aber selbstständig zurück auf 60-90. Mal ja mal nein. Komisch.
Allerdings sind 7500 Punkte im CB20 für einen Laptop ja auch nicht sooo schlecht. 😁
Star Citizen läuft aber spürbar besser selbst ohne Afterburner für die 2070 habe ich jetzt 5-10 fps mehr. Obwohl ich von Medium auf High bei den Settings gestellt habe.
Und die CPU wird nicht so heiß wie der i7.
Schon ganz geil. 🤪
Freue mich auf Dein nächstes Video.
Sehr coole Werte, danke für's teilen! :)
Jetzt hab ich dir eben schon in dem angepinnten Kommentar geantwortet. ^^ Naja nochmal kurz paar Kommentare hier.
---
Du schreibst: "Was krass ist, dass im Cinebench20 die 8GB Samsung mit 3200 CL 20-19-19 gut 7500 Punkte bringen, die 32 GB Ballistix mit 2666 CL 20-22-22 „nur“ 7.000".
Das wundert mich garnicht so sehr. Es kommt tatsächlich nicht nur auf die primären Timings drauf an. CAS ist wichtig, aber ebenso wichtig ist die Kombination aus tRCD (sowohl das RCDRd als auch RCDWr) und tRP. Dann vor allem noch tRAS, tRC und tRFC. Du bist mit 20-19-19 schon einiges fixer als mit 20-22-22. Ich wette die erwähnten Werte tRAS, tRP und tRFC machen auch noch einiges aus.
Ich würde echt gern mal die HyperX in meine Finger bekommen. Die schaffen bestimmt auch 3200 CL18, vielleicht sogar CL17. Aber ich kann mir nicht alles leisten. Bin gerade mit dem Umzug einigermaßen durch. :D
Du willst die mir nicht zufällig mal ausleihen? ;)
Grüße
3DAndStuff , die HyperX gehen vermutlich bald zurück. Bis ich Samsung-Riegel bekomme. Ausleihen ist schlecht, dann habe ich keinen Speicher mehr. 😂
Der 8er geht heute zu XMG zurück, dafür bekomme ich (gegen Aufpreis) 2x16 davon. Wenn ich die auch auf 20-19-19 kriege, wäre das schon mal was. Vielleicht kriege ich auch noch straffere Timings hin. Mal gucken.
Die Rechenleistung von dem 3950x im Apex ist eigentlich eh schon abartig. 🤪
Da kann man auch etwas versuchen die Wärme im Griff zu behalten, indem man nicht noch den Speicher overvolted.
Obwohl das für einen CB20 Run schon Spaß macht. 😉
Ich habe die HyperX nicht über 2933 MHz bekommen. Obwohl die JEDEC 3200 angegeben sind. Kann es sein, dass man bei denen JEDEC auch die Spannung anheben muss?
JEDEC sollte doch eigentlich ohne Tweaks laufen, oder? Angegeben sind die mit 1,2V.
Alles was über 2933 war, konnte ich nicht booten. 🙁
Zum Thema Mainboard: Es ist eine neue Rev. drin. Rev 1 war „fehlerhaft“, daher liefen die Ballistix Bzw 3200er nicht. Der 8auer konnte daher nur auf 2666 testen. Jetzt laufen 3200er, und pumpen mal eben 500 Punkte mehr in den ohnehin schon satten CB20 Score.
Ist schon irre. Mit JEDEC 3200ern lässt das Apex 15 3950x einen Desktop 3900x lässig stehen. Und der hat dann Wasserkühlung und 3600+ RAM verbaut. 😱
Viele Grüße!
@@TeKieler72 Kannst du mir einen Gefallen tun mal den Memory-Die Typ der HyperX auslesen? Dafür brauchst du den "Taiphoon Burner" (freeware reicht), dann dort in der oberen Leiste auf den "Read" Button gehen. Im erscheinenden Fenster mal bitte die Werte unter "Die Density / Count", "JEDEC DIMM Label" und "Organization" auslesen?
Ich tippe auf SKhynix CJR oder Micron E-die. Sind wahrscheinlich keine B-die. Hab auch schon überlegt mir die HyperX mal zum testen in den Warenkorb zu legen :)
Der speicher kann im Moment garnicht overvoltet werden :) Sind nur die strafferen Timings und vor allem die höhere Frequenz die mehr Schaltwiderstand, ergo mehr Wärme erzeugen. Viel viel mehr ist es aber nicht.
"JEDEC sollte doch eigentlich ohne Tweaks laufen, oder?"
Ja und nein. Wenn du einfach nur die primären timings anpasst muss das nicht sein. Die Sekundären und tertiären timings müssen auch entsprechend angepasst werden. Die laufen sicher mit 3200, bestimmt auch mit 3600, wenn man an den richtigen Schrauben dreht. Oft reicht es tRFC auch 360ns-380ns anzuheben. Bei Samsung B-die gehen auch 320ns.
Meine G.Skill und die Corsair Vengeance laufen beide mit 3600MHz, obwohl beide nicht dafür ausgelegt sind. Laufen alle immernoch auf 1.2V DRAM voltage
Erklär ich dann nochmal im Video ;)
Ich finde es bemerkenswert, dass du im Cinebench tatsächlich Unterschiede feststellst. Bei mir und dem 3700X bewege ich mich im Bereich von unter 1%. Liegt vielleicht am limitierten Speichercontroller des 3600, 3700 und 3800 (memory write ist auf ~50% der Bandbreite von 3900 und 3950 beschränkt)
Grüße
amazing job! any advice for 3600 OC/UV for a "sweet spot?"
Not yet! But you can try it out yourself as explained in the video. Use Ryzen Master to set custom PPT values, check if they are applied using HWinfo, run CineBench R20 3 times in a row and write down the results. But as can be seen in the video "Manual OC" is much more effective to save power and reduce heat. You can try out 3.9GHz@1.1V as a starting point. Then try to lower you voltage one step and retest with CineBench R20. If you crash, increase the voltage by 2 steps and keep that as a daily.
@@TechModLab how would you compare 3700x (optimized with your OC/UV) VS stock 4800h on, perhaps, the new XMG Core AMD?
Hey, great video again :-) I will try using Manual OC in Ryzen Master. I also have the 3700x. Was 4.15Ghz @ 1.163v your starting point ? Thanks
No 1.163V was the limit. Start off with 1.175V or maybe even 1.181V. Lower the values step by step and validate every step with CineBench R20 and Prime95.
Good luck and have fun :) The 3700X works well in this machine
@@TechModLab Thank you very much for your help :-) I tested with 4.15Ghz @ 1.181V but reached higner temperatures around 90C. I tried one step down at 1.175V but the computer crashed during the second CB20 test. The score got 600 points higher but I guess it's not worth 90C. I'll try to lower the frequency :-)
Also it's 30C in the room, I guess it's not helping.
Also, I have noticed that for some reason, I have a pretty low CB20 score of 4150 with everything set to default in performance mode.
@@stefanthis1258 Just guessing, but sounds like your thermal contact between cpu and heatpipes is worse than mine is. Could explain the low base score.
Do you have an original XMG Apex 15 or other Clevo reseller/brand? XMG uses thermal Grizzly kryonaut which works quite well in my machine
@@TechModLab it is indeed an other vendor in UK called PC Specialist.
Well, the thing is that I don't see any core going higher than 3,6ghz while running cinebench in default performance mode.
@@stefanthis1258 Ah, I see. Well 3.6GHz is your base clock. I think boosting is disabled in windows or on your machine. Did you modify anything energy option (regedit hack?) wise in Windows, or had a dive into BIOS?
In BIOS there could be an option like "precision boost" off/on. Turn it on.
I have a multimonitor use case, have you tested if the dp signal is out put to the usb-c via alt mode and the mini-dp port at the same time? That would be very helpful!
Hi Folks , my config is R5 3600+2070+2666mhz set to 3000mhz sasmung RAM , I did a bit of OC on my APEX 15 and results are : UNIGINE superposition 1080p HIGH 11699 points, UNIGINE Valley 1080p EXTREME 4835 points , CB r20 : 3550 points on average. Please note Graphic bench results are the absolute top results I could of get and by no means this kind of performance can be kept for long term due to max fan speed (GPU temps never actually exceeded 69 C ). To keep acceptable level of noise and temps, settings must be dialed down but it is still not far off from top results I could of get.I absolutely love my Apex 15 !!!!!!
Mostly entertainment mode is sufficient for all my needs to be honest, but it is nice to know there is nice amount of performance headroom under the hood.
nice to hear :) thanks for sharing!
Thank your!)
I believe you should have opt to 3600 since your not getting the full performance of 3700x or maybe your getting a a decent performance with the cost of thermals, temps was worst when you do gpu + cpu combine loads plus the EC limit and PSU wattage limitation and btw you should also check the VR thermal throtting this occurs on gpu+cpu combine loads which requires repadding.
Luckily i opted to 6 cores 12 threads variant removing its power limits with custom bios and vbios, both undervolted, liquid metal, repadding the thermal pads with fujipoly and im pretty sure it can outrun your config on longer runs since im not even getting 80c on cpu and gpu combine loads
Can you further elaborate on that? You claim that by modding the Bios (which Bios?) and vBios ( not sure how you did that on Turing as we have the Max-P variant already...)
Comparison video on a wide variety of CPU options coming.
Added new pads to the VRM already, wasn't happy with the appliance either.
Liquid metal is a good option, BUT is not advisable because it gets soaked by the copper heatsink (no nickel coating) and need to be reapplied after some months. It does leave traces and could be a potential problem for RMA requests. I am not sure what all the vendors out there say about RMA including LiquidMetal. But as far as I know XMG does not always cover guarantee cases with liquid metal involved. Especially when some LM drops can be seen on the mainboard. I am not a member of XMG, so take my words with care.
Can you provide a link to a thread or similar to a modded BIOS?
Belive me, my 3700x does not throttle and is performing like an average desktop 3700x (4800 CB20 points) :) Overclocking can take it to 5000-5100 points. I am very happy with the 3700x, since I do not just play games, I also need render performance. The 3700x seems to be a good balance for both tasks. But thanks for your care.
Would be very interested with your tuning of the cpu power how much improvement to battery like can you get idle or "UA-cam" with 3.6Ghz and undervaluing "Power saving mode" so close to clicking order. Intention is replacement desktop but just a tad more battery life would be a big sell..
I does not do much about the overall battery runtime. The other system components draw a significant amount of power all the time. The notebook got only a dedicated graphgics card, the RTX ones. No CPU integrated GPU to save power. I simulated the power draw for watching 1080p60 youtube videos for different conditions.
CPU PPT: power draw
3.60GHz @ 0.944V with average 21.3W
4.00GHz @ 1.094V with average 23.9W
4.15GHz @ 1.181V with average 25.1W
Full auto (precision boost) with average 26.4W
You can only shave of 5W. Combined with the other power consumptions while watching videos of the GPU (11W) + peripherals (display, etc. ... let's say 5W) you suck at least 42W of power out of the battery in your described UA-cam video watching scenario. That means 65Wh battery divided by 42W = 1.5h = 90 minutes on battery.
Sorry, the Apex 15 is a desktop inside a notebook case. ;)
Hi Great review.
I'm looking for Image processing and 3d model rendering. Is this the best laptop we can get at this price range.. I'm planning for CUK Clevo NH57AF1 in amazon. ryzen 3900 processor. 64gb ram , rtx 2070.
Hello thanks for the update on xmg 15 please can you also run xmrig miner for monero mining and let me know the results? I am very much interested in purchasing this laptop but I want to know how it performs on mining coins. Thanks again for the video!
nope sorry. No time for soo many benchmarks. :) But as you can see the results are very compareable to regular desktop processors. Just look up desktop CPU performance to judge that.
Thank you so much fo this helpful video. I am an Architect and I am thinking to buy an XMG apex 15 as it has strong cpu and good gpu.But I am concerning about Heat throthling, Because I may use it to render Complex Architectural scenes with high geometric details. Please help me decide what cpu and system to buy. I want use two render Engines(Vray3.6 and lumion 10). Do you recommend Quadro Gpu for my work or Geforce is ok?
Heat related throtteling can be a problem if your ambient temperature is high (30°C+). Another problem can be lower quality thermal paste. XMG uses high quality one, but I can't say what other vendors are using.
I experienced no CPU thermal throttling in my Apex 15 with many offered CPU options (tested: 3600, 3700x, 3800x, 3900, 3900x, 3950x), but make sure you are okay with high noise levels, because the fans need to dissipate all the heat in some way. But if you use "Entertainment Mode" (65W PPT CPU Limit) the notebook is noticeable quieter and it should be pleasant to work with. The biggest bang for the buck is the Ryzen 3900 if you need high Render performance. The 3700x is the budget option and gives you an overall quieter notebook in idle and light load scenarios (f.e. web browsing). The performance difference between those two is CB20 are 4800 points in CB20 for the 3700X and 6400 points in CB20 for the Ryzen 3900. That means you got a performance uplift by 33% in applications which can utilize all cores. Make sure your software can utilize that many cores.
Regarding the GPU I can say that the RTX 2070 exceeds the requirements for the "recommended" hardware of your named software "Ilumion" version 10.5. But does not match the high-end requirements. Read their "System Requirements" description and make sure if you are okay with that.
I can't decide for you :) Think about what you want and compare products in question.
Here a link to a water cooling concept:
www.reddit.com/r/XMG_gg/comments/fsbsr0/megathread_xmg_apex_15_with_amd_ryzen_desktop_cpu/g12t2v3?
would you recommend this laptop for gaming and Games development? is there anything better at its price levels?
Yes, the pricepoint compared to overall performance is great. But not all games need that much CPU power. So it strongly depends on your style of game. If it's not using as much CPU power as the Apex 15 offers you could also purchase a computer with a slower CPU and similar GPU and you would save some more money. Strongly depends on your needs.
What kind of stability test program do you use? How else should we proceed?
I test my settings with CineBench R20 and the Aida64 Stress Test. I add another 4 voltage steps to my stable tested settings as a safety margin.
@@TechModLab How do I set the voltage for the stress tests?
Although 3950X and 64GB RAM are worn, they are forced to shut down within 16 minutes when tested on AIDA64.
www.aida64.com/products/screenshot/system-stability-test
This is the site you mentioned, right?
Only CPU, cache, and memory are selected.
@@aaass200 Yes that's the stress test. But I only chose closely CPU related settings: CPU, FPU, Cache.
Your crashes are propably related to your memory. What settings it is running on?
You can use ZenStates to set fixed all-core frequency and voltage. But disable the ClevoControlCenter in this case. Make sure you disabled the Clevo service (Windows services). Otherwise it may revert your settings to 88W PBO
3DAndStuff
Well, I don't know why. 😅😅
All CPU/FPU/Cache is enabled today.
I took the stress test and it was over 16 minutes.
It's been 60 minutes. As you said, RAM could be a shutdown problem.
But I passed the 10th anniversary of TM5.
That's weird...
Anyway, the progress report...
The CPU temperature is 70-84 degrees.
Package: 89.36w.
Key: 65.09w.
Voltage and frequency settings.
The frequency is 3500.
The voltage is 0.962.
(Measured from 0.900 to 0.919 in a test environment)
(Use Hwmoitor)
Meinst du die rtx2070 würde für Videoschnitt (Davinci Resolve) mehr Sinn als die 2060 machen? Ich wollte eigentlich eher die CPU auf 3900 aufrüsten.
Bisschen schneller sollte die 2070 schon gegenüber der 2060 sein. Vielleicht so ca 10-15%, die CPU macht bei Videoschnitt und Videorendering aber immer noch mehr aus. Also wenn es dir wirklich nur darum geht, dann reicht wohl auch die 2060! Schau mal mit deiner aktuellen Hardware wieviel Video Memory von Davinci Resolve genutzt wird. Wenn es schon jetzt Richtung 6GB VRAM geht, dann doch eher die 2070, da hast du mit 8GB noch etwas Headroom.
@@TechModLab Danke. Ja, es ist eher VRAM ein Grund die 2070 zu nehmen. Selbst schauen kann ich leider nicht mehr, meine Grafikkarte wird nicht mehr bei der aktuellen Version unterstützt und hat eh nur 2GB VRAM. Deswegen wollte ich so langsam auch was neues kaufen.
Your videos are amazing!
With these (fast) benchmarks the laptop can handle, but with 4.15Ghz in editing / rendering a video (for example) as the temperature increases, do these clocks get fixed after one hour?!?, or down?
Thx!
Not sure what you mean exactly, but the temps are fine with 4.15GHz and 1.163-1.175V all core overclock. Temps stay under 85°C even running long term rendering.
How is it in term of temperature and noise ?
Um, are you kidding me? :D It's in the video. 15:17 till end.
I just started tried to start tuning the xmg. I installed zenstates and ryzen master. Unfortunately the controllcenter software seems to overright everything. I tried to put down the core Voltage and have synced 4K ghz on all cores. But i cant bring it down. So i suggest i have to uninstall the control Center Software?
No it's enough to deactivate the "Control Center Hotkey Service" in windows services. You can still use the "fan speed settings" and "LED keyboard setting" App which comes with the ControlCenter. The only thing you can't do is to use the power modes (performance, entertainment, energy saving, silent). They will be gone.
I use linux and i wanna buy this notebook but without oc settings in the bios I can't undervolting
Since BIOS version 1.07.07 there are BIOS Manual OC settings (fixed voltage, fixed frequency) in BIOS ("AMD UI"), but the settings are very limited at the moment. But seem to be useful for higher core count processors. Max setable freq is 3900MHz. I think future BIOS will improve that.
And the software Zenstates seem to be available for Linux too and is based on command line Python. Not tested if it works though.
Hi. Hope you reading this. I have the Problem that i bought a Ryzen 5 5600x for an Upgrade. Currently using a Ryzen 7 3700x in this Mashine. As soon as i switch the CPU i get a black screen after starting the Laptop. The Keyboard lights up and the CPU Cooling Fan runs for a few seconds. What did i do wrong? How can i make the Apex 15 recognize the new CPU? Regards from Switzerland.
the XMG APEX 15 from 2020 with B450 chipset does not support Ryzen 5000 (Zen 3). A new BIOS AGESA version would be required, but Clevo refused to work on an update, because their support from AMD's software engineers is very limited.
If you want an upgrade you have to buy the latest APEX 15 MAX with B550 chipset.
Is 2.2 coming soon? :)
next week :) Finally got some time to continue
Hi. Mine has the Problem that the Clevo Control Center 3.46 wont apply any custom Voltages and Frequencys. Why is that. I did a fresh and clean install of Win 11. Somehow when i use Ryzen Master the Settings i make there get resetted after a few seconds of running a Program or Game. What am i missing? Everything is up to date. Regards from Switzerland
Your settings get reset by the "Control Center Hotkey Service" running in the background. If you wish that your settings do not get reset you need to deactivate this service or set it to "manual" and additionally deactivate the "Fnkey" apllication in the autostart menu of the task manager.
by the way i highly recommend ZenStates to apply your custom settings instread of Ryzenmaster. RyzenMaster got no "auto load settings at boot" feature, but ZenStates does.
@@TechModLab Sorry for the late reply. Will check it out tomorrow during Home Office. I send you a new Problem in the comments. Maybe you can help me on this one aswell. Kind regards.
will u test other cpu?
Maybe. I am a private user, no tech review channel with employees and stuff. I bought my Apex 15 from my own money. But MAYBEEEE I can get my hands on some CPUs to test. Can't promise though.
Anybody done DPC latency checks on this XMG Apex 15 with a Ryzen processor? I'm very interested in getting one for audio production (need lots of cores and low DPC latency). @3DAndStuff would you be willing to run the DPC latency checker on your system and let it run for about 30 minutes (60 minutes would be even better though)?
Yep the review website notebookcheck did. DPC latencies looking good with latest BIOS.
"Single core loads are very rare in reality anyway" - hahaha, I just had a good chuckle at that. Whether you start up an application, you watch a video, you compile a code base that isn't optimized for multi-core building, you play games and so on and so on - that's all either single core or at least mostly not well optimized for multi-core use.
Just watch hwinfo while doing such everyday tasks. It'll probably max out the boost every couple of seconds.
Good comment! Criticism is important to improve things.
"at least mostly not well optimized for multi-core use" I agree. But I meant single core load specifically, so only 1 thread. To be honest, we both are right and wrong. There are applications, games and compiling situations in which single core performance is king, BUT those are not usual. And just to clarify for other readers, processes do not equal thread count. Applications start up multithreaded, 4k video playback is a tiny task to these kind of processors+GPU anyway, all relevant modern games are multithreaded (even if they only use 6T or less), programming projects with just one compile object may be common for smaller projects which compile in less than 5 seconds anyway, but nearly non-existent for all compile jobs with multiple objects/classes, which are most common. But true, it does not apply to all cases. Mostly games are not well optimized for higher core counts yet. Witcher 3 (which is quite old) for example seems to use 4 threads or less. That's not 16T possible with the 3700X, not even 8T without SMT. Too bad. But further increasing core counts should increase that in future as well (so I hope ;) ). Let's say single core speed does matter, yes. But will become less important due to better multi core optimizations in the next few years.
.
At least for gaming the single boost seems to be not very important as you can see with a look on the FPS plots with 99th min, 95th min FPS in this video (FPS which reflect micro stuttering quite well). The All-Core Manual OC variants are faster or at least on par with the boosting PBO modes. Except for Witcher 3, which does not reflect anything clearly useful.
.
*edit* Just tried to find more information on core utilization by the games used in this video. Witcher 3, roughly 3 cores. SOTTR 6 cores, Anno 1800 not very helpful information so far, could be 4-8 cores. More than or equal to 4 cores utilization should explain the low usefulness of single core boost in those games.
Do they ship in manila philippines?
XMG published a list with all resellers a while ago: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JyuldFQVi5Xj8Wq2Uop0J7_IVn2xLsXrLttmAln0Tnw/edit#gid=0
so is there no way to reach the 4.4 Ghz on CPU ?
Not all-core, no. But with the regular boost mode (default & PBO using power modes via ControlCenter) you'll get the advertised boost frequencies.
But as I said in the video, I can highly recommend the all-core frequency "ManualOC" tuning. The temperature & noise benefit is huge.
I can't recommend 3900 and 3950X for gaming in this case, though. The 3600 and 3700X are better suited for gamers inside this notebook, because of the higher overall power draw seen with the 3900 and 3950X.
More details in the upcoming video.
@@TechModLab I got 4.2 ghz at most ..never crossed that and it peaked at 95C with CPU demanding games..I sent the laptop back and now getting a desktop after my refund...
@@kharaf9920 which CPU? Did you do a manual overclock to 4.2 or was it boosting behaviour?
You send it back because of the high temperatures? Could be bad thermal paste though. Original XMG or other vendor?
@@TechModLab I didn't manually overclock it. It was using the performance mods with max fan
It was hitting 4.1 to 4.2 ghz
I sent it back because I thought a desktop cpu with a beefier laptop would allow me to run games at low temps but I was highly wrong
At idle the temp was 70 C in a 25 C room. The product was purchased from amazon Italy for 1600 eur ryzen 3700 x with rtx 2060 .
Moreover the performance wasn't so great ..couldn't hit 100fps with most games.
Finally this was my 4th laptop...I fried the cpu of 3 previous laptops last one being the asus rog strix scar II..
how bad is the battery life...?
BAD! ;) No really, depends on the configuration and load. Webbrowsing+VideoStreaming around 60-80 minutes. In Idle 80-100 minutes.
This laptop got no power saving integrated GPU inside the CPU like found on many other thin and light laptops. And the desktop CPU is no power saver, too.
This laptop is a desktop replacer. It is made for all who need that unseen power, content creators, for renderingf, video editing, and so on. For gaming it is great too, but only for peeps who not want to play on battery.
@@TechModLab Thank you for the reply! Oh well, that is indeed really bad...
I saw a lot of the reviews with the top of the line 3950X and I thought it was bad because of the choice of CPU. But if the 3700X too only last for at most a couple of hours, I'll have to refrain from picking this one up, I guess. I was hoping for something around 4-6h idle, silly me lol
Have you ever compared this "laptop" 3700X with the 4800H by any chance? I am starting to think that maybe a Clevo or TongFang with the 4800H would better suit my usage.
@@JeffBastian Nope i did not, but if you okay with a little less CPU performance than the 3700X and some less FPS in games you are okay with all those available 4800H/4900H 2060 laptops. Unfortunately this is the only laptop with AMD CPU + RTX 2070 available as far as I know. So it is the fastest one you can get with AMD CPU
@@TechModLab indeed, gpu-wise it is the fastest. But after reading about the battery life, i don't think I can live with that lol
I also travel quite a bit, so having a powerful laptop is nice if I want to work remotely, doing computational and rendering stuffs, but battery-wise I think it is in favor of the 4800h 4900h indeed.
Afterall, I don't really want this laptop that I'm getting to be a desktop replacement, more like an additional machine for work on the go.
But anyway, thanks again for the reply!
@@JeffBastian True! But I am glad you found a good conclusion for yourself. Better to find out what you really want instead of regret afterwards. I think the Asus G14 could be a good choice. 9h on battery while websurfing. Sounds good to me.
But beware the G14 runs hot though
I don't get why PC enthusiasts are often so keen on low temperatures, calling them "healthy". Have you ever taken a look at the temps of a MacBook? ;)
And as Tom has already pointed out - even NVIDIA themselves seem to be just fine with temperatures in the 80-87 degree range. So... why demand more fan noise? If you want it to run cooler, you can always crank up the fans through the custom curves?
Because I saw a lot of my computer components dying due to extended temperature stress in the last 20 years ;) And I personally like to extend the lifetime of my components as far as possible. Usually I want to decide myself when to buy a new computer, and not let the computer decide by dying early.
But true! The notebook could focus on lower fan noise by rising the fan-temperature-target to 80°C for example. But the RMA rates will increase too. Heat kill components earlier, that's not an invention by myself, it's reality.
If I have the choice to run my components at 75°C (with loud fans) and it dies after 8 years, OR at 85°C (with quieter fans) and it dies after 4 years, I would personally prefer the 8 year variant. Just as disclaimer, those numbers are made up as an example.
But that's only true for me because I am not focused on quiet operation. I am used to loud notebooks to be honest. I got a bulky MSI GT70 before (51/53dBa).
It is a question of personal preference :)
To summarize it in short... In the end the hardware should be fine running at 87°C. But as I said, the hardware will die earlier than when operated cooler. Impossible to say when.
@@TechModLab Interesting. I've never heard of or experienced a CPU/GPU dying because it ran too hot for too long in my last 20 years. All I've seen where CPUs that accidentally got crushed back when manufacturers hadn't figured out safe heat sink mounting methods yet and motherboards and hard drives suddenly dying for no apparent reason. That's it.
But maybe you've used more devices than me...
@@notthere83 Don't get me wrong, you have a valid point!
To be honest hardware is more robust these days, mainly because there are more advanced thottling mechanisms. But I remember I killed every GPU I had 10-15 years ago with overclocking. Had no idea what I was doing, I was young. At least they lasted for 2 years or so haha :D Today I prefer to be on the safe side.
I checked out the Asus G14 in another reviewer's video. It get's insanely hot! More than 100°C on the CPU. That can't be "healthy" as I would say, but time will prove. Maybe those processors just can handle it. I don't know. I just try to be careful :)
But surely I also would love to see a "temperature target" slider in the control center. So every user can set their preferred component temperature and therefore can easily decrease fan noise if needed. Fans would spin slower when they are target to maintain 80°C instead of 70°C like it is set now.
@@TechModLab Absolutely (temperature targets and fans). Because the thing is - the Apex 15 doesn't HAVE to be as noisy as most reviewers make it out to be.
The pre-defined profiles are just bad (even though they were even worse in the past, I guess). Bad EDC/TDC settings and fan curves.
I installed Obsidian Fan Control and with only about 20% CPU fan and 30% GPU fan, while using the Entertainment profile (3950X), I got an idle temp of 49 deg, 72 in prime95 and ~82 in my "custom mixed single core load stress test". I think that's very reasonable. And that only causes constant 30 dB, barely audible, no annoying ramping up/down.
Clevo seems to be crippling their own machine...
@@TechModLab These are btw temperatures from my current, completely uncustomized HP laptop with an 8th gen mobile Intel CPU (prime95 - first half 1 thread, second half 2): imgur.com/mfl0mmr
That's of course an unrealistic workload but... even just checking hwinfo as I'm typing this, I see a spike in the 90-100 deg. range as well as multiple ones from 70-80, with the low end being 55-60.
POV: you are german