Hearing them say Heavy should have a non healing secondary shortly after cutting the Family Business without even considering a rework was certainly something
Well the family business is just the shotgun, making it interesting would be such a rework it would basically be a new weapon. And they were saying an edible that helps damage.
My name is tyler and I belive they are whiny babys, why do they want to delete half the weapons from tf2 smh. Im also bad at managing my ammo and love the cow mangeler, and the phlog scorchshot combo is amazingly balanced.
wrap/cleaver is unironically a pretty disgusting combo tho. 12 direct from bauble, 50 direct from cleaver, and two stacks of bleeding on top. that's 16 damage per second for 8 second, so that's 128 damage if left unchecked. the 62 direct damage brings a light class to half health on its own and the 16 damage per second will kill them if it isn't negated within four seconds. pair those numbers with the shortstop for the ultimate mid-range scout loadout just because bleed is a meme now doesn't mean you should underestimate what a mean bastard of a combo wrap/cleaver is
@@percher4824 its pretty good in payload when the map designers forgot to put a flank route in a chokepoint so you have to smash your head against a wall metaphorically until it clears out and you can push. Scout doesn't really have any non-suicidal tools for that situation other than projectiles
I had an interesting thought. Delete the Back Scatter, and give the mini-crits on backshots to Baby Face’s, to further reward using the boost for flank plays.
Your vendetta against the Loose Cannon is completely unjustified. The loose cannon is SIGNIFICANTLY different from just because of Cannon jumping alone, not even including the knockback or double donks
The loose cannon is a goddamn peak of game design, Blue. You're not getting rid of it just because you can't cope with the reality of playing a light class.
@@technorave555 We're not trying to _define_ iconic though. Like, yeah, if they wanted to, they could say "The Sandman is widely known and acknowledged especially for distinctive excellence within the TF2 community" but why bother with all that when you could just say "The Sandman is iconic to TF2." A lot more words to convey the same idea.
Blue I gotta say hearing your vendetta against the Loose Cannon has to be the biggest L from you I’ve heard. If cutting weapons because of redundancy is part of the reasoning then the Black Box should absolutely get the axe over the Loose Cannon if it came down to that. Since soldier already can get a source of healing through the conch. Not to mention that aside from the heal and one less rocket it’s the exact same as stock. Meanwhile the Loose cannon provides actual game changing effects. Such as cannon jumping, being a launcher more focused on killing players rather than buildings, and displacement of enemies due to the cannons knock back. Anyway you slice it I cannot see an argument for cutting the loose cannon over other options.
Demoman’s grenade launchers are already more suited to killing players which makes the loose cannon redundant. It’s even basically just another stickybomb launcher in terms of vulnerability due to the charge time. Also the black box is a healing item that won’t take up the secondary slot, this means you can survive longer to keep other banners up for longer or run a shotgun to deal with pyro and use the rockets to ignore the afterburn.
@@sud1881 I disagree. A well timed double donk provides the burst damage necessary to kill players faster than 2 direct pills would. And if it doesn’t kill them the displacement of the impact shot is enough to almost guarantee a retreat or put the enemy in a position they wouldn’t want to be in. While the lack of impact explosions make it less suitable for buildings. It’s a give and take. And yes while the black box and conch take up different slots I don’t believe that makes the redundancy argument irrelevant. I could’ve also targeted the winger or atomizer for instance. The fact that they’re in different slots I don’t think matters as much because they are still occupying the same niche. Regardless of whether it’s burst or over time both items are still giving the same benefit to soldiers. But I view the conch as more valuable to the game.
@@hyperevo7466 in the time that you perfectly charge the loose cannon to double donk a light class it would have been so much easier to just hit two pipes and move on, there really isn’t any killing potential that you gain from the loose cannon besides maybe saving ammo but then you have the issue of charge time basically being equal to the reload time you would have with other grenade launchers. Also the stun mechanics of just knocking players away just means that classes that get into close range get hit with a denial button for pretty much no effort since there’s no extra skill required to deny all classes from getting close to you. The conch and the black box are different because the black box is about encouraging fully aggressive play with a shotgun to engage with and a black box to fall back on as your last bit of damage and a bit of extra healing. The conch is all about retreating after every fight and managing your ammo perfectly or else you die.
The Loose Cannon hill Blue chose to die on is one of the funniest takes I've ever seen in TF2, and I say that without exaggeration. I mean I've been playing the game since 2016 so I'm no veteran TF2 player but this might be the first time I've ever heard this level of hatred for the weapon. Genuinely a take almost on-par with the logical leaps in the rebalance video. Yeah, that one. I love that Blue tries to make it out as if it doesn't offer any different sort of playstyle to stock... as if it doesn't have shorter range, a unique charging and double-donk mechanic, a blast jump that absolutely CRUSHES pill jumping in every regard AND synergy as a good hybrid-knight weapon for flying Demoknights. I also love the minor discussion near the end where Blue really tries to argue the FUCKING KUNAI deserves to be in the game more than the Loose Cannon. Even a reworked Kunai, existing alongside the Big Earner which does what a reworked Kunai should do INFINITELY better and in a more interesting way, it's not even close. Blue even says themselves that the overlap between the Kunai and the Big Earner is nearing redundancy! (Also yes, aware this is just funny opinions, not taking it too seriously lmao)
Content suggestion: "What if different unlocks were stock?" Going through hypothetical timelines of how the game would have developed from there. Pyro with Backburner as the stock weapons would have codified them as an ambush assassin. Medic with Kritz as stock would have made the game extremely volatile as ome kritz wipes out a team, and with no defensive coutnermeasures you'd be force to try to pick the medic before he gets another charge. Heavy with Brass Beast as stock... Doesnt change much really.
Scout with the Force o’nature would be a pain to deal with, making him a mobile glass cannon that will regularly push his targets off cliffs, if not outright deleting him. Engineer with the Frontier Justice would legitimately be interesting. Imagine how creative they could get with these revenge effects, perhaps even giving his primary weapon more of a supportive aspect, essentially acting as a second medic without a medigun but a sentry instead. Spy with the enforcer wouldn’t change much to be quite honest, it seems like they picked the wrong concept to begin with. Something to reward good position and precision aim would have been a better pick, but I guess sentries are a potentially big threat considering they cannot take critical hits.
@@JonathanNormandyNah because the lore in Meet The Medic is that the original Quick Fix broke after its first use and had to be rebuilt with a different Uber, so there's no reason to change it during the short
@@JonathanNormandy Stock uber was made as a counter to sentries. If Kritz were designed as a base uber, I think Valve would have to redesign sentry as well to accommodate.
Lol yeah. It's a bit goofy but the consistent video size makes it a lot easier to edit. Plus, Subway Surfers gameplay in the corner memes aside, I think most people prefer to have something more to look at than just a static tier list should they actually want to watch instead of just putting it on in the background.
I love the thumbnail lol. "Delete 1 of Heavy's *4* lunchbox items? Nah keep it. However, 1 of Engineer's *3* secondaries at all? Delete it. Also now his only secondary unlock is the wrangler lmfao"
look man, I get it and I agree, but hearing that the jumper weapons would have to be cut hurts my soul. A large portion of the fun I've gotten from this game came from those two weapons.
Makes me sad to remove the quick fix. I think the increased heal is the least interesting part of it when compared to it following rocket jumps and other extra movement options. It's loads of fun to hop behind the enemy team with your pocket medic.
There quick fix is more of a gimmick weapon, in casual you can’t rely on teammates to put you somewhere good and in competitive it’s already banned so there wouldn’t be much point in keeping it since it’s just a casual terrorizer or a extra number in the list of banned competitive weapons.
I hate how Great Blue is so in favor of removing the Loose Cannon when the Black Box is LITERALLY THERE. Loose Cannon is fun, Black Box is boring. Not to mention, Soldier gets FOUR PRIMARIES (not counting stock) in this hypothetical. On TOP of still having Conch?! Like bruh?
seriously, the majority of those things are trash (gen 1-3, discontinued halloween unusuals and the end of the line unusuals are better than modern unusuals)
Having a category labled "keep but rework" just seems weird to me because now it's hard to argue for the removal of any weapon: oh you're saying if we have to cut half the weapons, we'd get rid of this one? Well, how about [insert any number of hypothetical reworks], how can you still argue in favor of removing this weapon?"
I think we touched on it in the video, but "keep but rework" is for weapons where the concept is really cool but the existing implementation is not. Take the Bison for example - we both like the concept of a mid-range laser weapon, but obviously the current Bison is not the greatest weapon, so in order to keep it we'd want it to be tweaked a bit. You're right that we could theoretically put every weapon in that category if we thought of a good enough rework, but some weapons have a MUCH better starting point than others (compare the concept of the Liberty Launcher vs the Direct Hit for instance), and in those cases you wouldn't have to change much to make them incredibly useful. That's why each of the weapons we put in there had single-stat changes (swap the debuff the Sandman ball inflicts, slightly increase the Dalokohs' healing, etc), while most of the weapons we removed would have to be reworked from the ground up to be kept. Definitely a touchier choice for a video like this to include a "keep but rework" tier, but it gives us a lot more freedom to keep weapons that have massive potential/are way too powerful to keep otherwise.
I was heart broken seeing Sydney Sleeper in delete because for me personally its the one rifle that actually changes Sniper's playstyle enough to make him a support class like he is stated to be. I'm not a fan of default Sniper because it's more used as a super tryhard non-fun competitive style (mainly thanks to the likes of MGE and THOSE types of players driven by ego) so having a weapon that I could use to relax with and get assists was quite nice. I personally go for weapons that I can casually vibe to rather than stuff that makes me sweat at the game even after pouring nearly 8,000 hours into the game.
the sandman giving marked for death would just make it gamebreaking imagine your medic just vanishing out of thin air cuz of a scout throwing a ball out of space
They would have to hit the medic (who should be behind people) and then the scout's team needs to hit that medic. If your medic has been hit that much by all of this, then ball or not they were likely dead since they were exposed and not positioning well behind allies all while without uber.
ya know, in the game where two classes are literally dedicated to making him vanish, I don’t think him occasionally becoming more vulnerable from the sandman is your biggest concern…
You gotta keep the Family Business in the game cuz I had a dream where Valve made a meet the team type video where Heavy talks about how much a shotgun bearing his family's name means to him
"I don't think the sniper should have access to an easy one shot" MY BROTHER IN CHRIST HES THE SNIPER CLASS. HE ALREADY HAS AN EASIER ONE SHOT. SHOOTING YOU IN THE HEAD. LET ME HAVE MY SILLY COMBO 😭😭
The jumpers deserve to be kept because they provide an alternative playstyle with noticeable drawbacks. It’s weird to keep the Winger, but delete the Jumpers.
They do, but in the context of removing half the weapons in the game, the playstyles they provide are so incredibly niche and mostly found in troll or educational situations. And I think this is mostly taking 'serious' play into consideration
@@alexhughes4683 I agree about the rocket jumper. However, the sticky jumper provides a super mobile demoman with a grenade launcher. That's a significantly different playstyle that is dangerous. In maps with a large skybox, a sticky jumper demo with a grenade launcher can fly in and take out engi nests or good snipers. Basically, a sticky jumper demo becomes the fastest-moving class in the game, and he still has a primary weapon that can kill any class/building. It is not a pure troll loadout like trolldier with the market gardener.
@LASAGNA_LARRY Valid. Very valid. I'd rather lose a another weapon to keep sticky jumper, since demoman has essentially 2 primaries - trading in one for more mobility is a pretty decent thing.
@@LASAGNA_LARRY This is a very good point, and Demoknight does benefit from Sticky to be more of an ambush knight meaning as a whole this is just a great weapon for Demo. The sticky jumper is a more versatile charge, available to almost any Demo build.
I don't mind them removing the sticky jumper, but removing the rocket jumper seems like a horrible choice, as it entirely removes a pretty popular sunclass. Your goal when deleting half the weapons should be to cut out redundancy and keep the weapons that provide fun alternatives to stock.
Sydney Sleeper being cut is insane to me because it IS a support sniper rifle. Being able to extinguish teammates from afar and basically marking people for death at a distance makes it a good support weapon. You could give teammates going 1v1 an advantage by shooting at the enemy.
The Sydney Sleeper is less of a support weapon and more of a lower skill floor weapon. Like you one shot light classes and deal significant damage to anyone else, that’s not support your just dealing damage. The Jarate effect barely even matters since dealing 150 to a heavy means they are going to die and the Jarate effect hardy matters. Nobody has ever relied upon a sniper to extinguish a fire on them, it’s either healing or a pyro; a sniper removing the fire is kinda hard to do anyways so it’s not very practical unless you stand far behind your teammates and wait for a pyro to ignite someone instead of shooting enemies. The Jarate effect never really helps on 1v1 fights, you either fully charge the rifle and insta kill the enemy or you don’t charge the rifle and the effect disappears before a rocket could even be fired in time.
@@sud1881The extinguish doesn't require full charge to use. On top of that, every sniper rifle does 150+ damage AND crits on headshot, unlike the Sydney Sleeper. If you're using it as a weapon, you're basically nerfing yourself. It's meant to be a support weapon.
@@musicsheep9816 it’s not a support weapon though, it’s just a lower skill floor weapon, the 150 from bodyshots is enough to win a fight on its own so you aren’t helping teammates as much as you are just deleting enemies.
@@musicsheep9816 just because every sniper deals 150 damage doesn’t invalidate the Sydney Sleeper’s lack of support utility, it’s just a damage rifle that is easier to use than the other damage rifles sniper has.
Balance to the kunai : give it a cooldown on the health on backstab. It prevents chain killing like crazy while feeling unkillable and makes efforts of focus fire actually work
How about this: You take more knockback, think about it, it may give him EVEN MORE survivability BUT you can move the spy away from your teammates to stop him from stabbing them and he could do even more flashy crap for those spy montages.
yeah no, spy already has probably the most things he has to keep track of (up there with engineer) if he had to keep track of whether his knife would give him his buff it would just be infuriating to use
@@monkeeboy830 How about this: get good you fucking noobs lmao. If chainstabs actually cause you significant problems, that's 100% on you being a dogshit player
i dont think getting rid of loose cannon is great because really its the most unique sidegrade to the grenade launchers, and has one of the most interesting/tf2 concepts of a cannonball launcher as a weapon. also i really dont believe your idea that double donkls do not take skill.
The Concheror being a keep weapon, I think justifies deleting the Black Box from the game. They both cover the same niche of self-sustain at the cost of firepower. But the Conch does it in a more interesting, and more meaningful way by affecting the entire team. And in the place of the Black Box, I would resurrect either The Blutsauger, or the Holiday Punch. Not sure which one of those two I would bring out but I kinda lean toward Holiday Punch
Removing the Soda Popper is honestly weird, its the only scout shotgun that people actually argue stands at the same level as stock, it changes your playstyle significantly too, compared to something like the brass beast which is just boring af.
As a TF2 classic player, (I don't play live TF2 much anymore), you would be amazed by how unnecessary the new weapons really are. There's only a couple of weapons that a class needs to change their playstyle or get over obstacles that stock cannot.
Yeah. With the expection of medic with the crossbow, pyro without the melee untily and at times heavy without sandvich, most class can work fine with all stock. In fact classes are the best with all stock or in the most balance like sniper and spy.
i mean tbh, thats kinda intentional to keep tf2 from being p2w. and honestly after playing too much pvz i just realized that weapon synergies are more important in shaping a playstyle than singular weapons, so something that is deemed unnescesarry like the neon, cowmangler, etc. can remove a playstyle by itself
the original getting an honorable mention at the end as a reskin with a minor difference makes me mildly upset that the cow mangler's unique firing angle wasn't brought up
Rework the gas passer to be a flame retardant - extinguishes teamates and provides afterburn immunity while soaked (same time as jarate and mad milk) but also have it apply the wet condition for combo crits with the neon annihilator.
I disagree with this heavily, this would just punish the enemy pyro for no reason. It would be incredibly unfair for the enemy and it would make pyro even weaker than he already is, probably almost as weak as spy
The your eternal reward has always reminded me of the horror movie “The thing” like your team mate that you know is real wonders into a room alone and then comes back and all of a sudden he is an imposter
Rework concept for the Short Circuit: -Remove M2 (the electric ball) , -Roll the delete projectiles mechanic from the M2 into the M1 (the low damage, fast firing, short range zap). It maintains the purpose of the short circuit but forces it to require actual aim and precision while destroying the game-breaking huge ball of opaque but penetrable electricity that takes zero skill to use effectively, and gives the SC a valid place in a world without the Wrangler's shield.
I did this personally before watching the video and the only really notable thing is that i put every single unlockable sniper secondary in delete (i didn't have a rework section btw)
See me personally, I believe that the Baby Face Blaster should have gone into the "Keep but Rework" catagory. It has an interesting concept of damaging people to gain more speed, which can work really well with weapons like the Flying Guillotine, but with how it works now with a FLY SNEEZE cutting down your boost to barely anything is heavily punishing. Its fun on paper but it punishes you too much so I feel like it can be reworked to make an interesting playstyle for Scout
If this was applied to tf2, might as well remove soldier, demo, and pyro’s melee slot from the game, free up some space on my pc, anything the isn’t necessary to the function of the game just remove because I have so much less reason to play either class or use pyro’s melee with these changes
I would say, especially here, that Demo does, in fact, need the Cannon. The only other (non-booty) primary is just a grenade launcher with longer range.
I like how this list completely cripples MVM meta lmao (also speaking of mvm bring back schizo mvm pls I will quit my job and go apply for a job at valve so I can delete the vaccinator if you do)
This video reminded me of one of the reasons I love about TF2 wo much, and it's the fact that with so many weapon that let you change your playstyle, the ones that tend to overlap with one another can be used as way to tweak an already established playstyle rather than completely changing it What I mean for example is lets say on Scout I want extra Horizontal Mobility and a ranged projectile on the side for range damage, my go to would be Stock, the Clever and the Atomizer, but if I wanted to change up my weapons a bit without sacrificing the original idea behind, I could instead equip the Winger and the Wrap Assassin I know that's not the best example but point is, It's the fact that even after deleting half the "unnecessary" weapons it most likely won't also sacrifice a lot of already existing playstyles and setups that already exist, it simply limits how you can adjust it to your liking, and I think that's really cool for an game older than half its fanbase to achieve
My grip with the Soda Popper is that it was originally giving the player Mini-Crits because its design uses the Crit-a-Cola, but now that it gives the player multiple jumps instead, being designed around the Crit-a-Cola makes no sense. Maybe rework it around Mini-Crits and give the multiple jumps mechanic to a separate weapon?
35:45 you know calling the pain train that does make me wonder what if other weapons augmented your stats at base the same way the pain train does. Because its design philosophy is different to many other melees, like the escape plan’s utility only activates when active. Imagine an alternative universe where weapons like the escape plan or winger had their active stats made passive in some way. Interesting idea though I don’t think that needs to be in the game, especially because the philosophy of “letting you see when an enemy’s stats have changed via their weapon being active or a wearable” is probably more fair.
I think the Cleaner's Carbine could work, if it helped you clean up. Get rid of the charge meter, and instead give it up to 5 seconds of mini-crits after an enemy survives a headshot, that ends early if that enemy dies during the 5 seconds.
A way to balance the kunai that won't make it unfun to fight against or overpowered would be to make the health threshold be filled gradually rather than instantly. Think like a medigun rather than a crossbow bolt
On the topic about Heavy being Boring, we should give him more options and make him "Heavy Weapons Guy" instead of just "Suppressive Fire". Like, give him a cannon that has like 20 rpm but could delete a light class with a direct hit and explode to shrapnel on impact with a player. Maybe give it the gimmick that you can also toggle between "detonate on impact" and "timed fuse" where you see a red laser from the barrel that ends where the round would scatter into a supercharged shotgun blast that you can adjust with scroll wheel or smthn. And call it Vindicta or sum
Valve realized they added too many hats into TF2 and now the game is out of memory. Valve doesnt want to remove hats because they would lost gambling money, so instead they chose to remove the weapons they can't balance.
![Why [TF2] has (Almost) Perfect Melee Weapons](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NArb-D-M8aU/mqdefault.jpg)
I can't believe Great Blue thinks every weapon in tf2 should be deleted
1984
What are we supposed to kill with now? Words? Literally 1984
Just sent my squad to cancel him 💅💅💅
I can't believe Great Blue thinks TF2 should be deleted.
@@ComparativelyRegular I can't believe Great Blue thinks VALVe should go bankrupt
DUDE, WHAT THE FUCK MAN!?!? I DONT USE THESE EVER!!11!
WHAT ARE YOU TALKIN ABOUT????????
omg it's him
Caught in crossfire like a spy on Badwater
Damn! TylerFortress?!! The one and only????!!
SOLDIER OF BABYLON,WHERE ART THOU
shame :/
Hearing them say Heavy should have a non healing secondary shortly after cutting the Family Business without even considering a rework was certainly something
To be fair he still have a shotgun, plus the panic attack
Wait em my bad, for some reason I was thinking that they move that to keep
Well the family business is just the shotgun, making it interesting would be such a rework it would basically be a new weapon. And they were saying an edible that helps damage.
This is an extreme version of smash or pass
Guys smash or pass hot hand
@@Jackspladt pass. I have one myself I don't need another
Smash or pass but you HAVE TO smash half the entries
Why would you say something so odd, yet so correct
Mad milk 🤤
My name is tyler and I belive they are whiny babys, why do they want to delete half the weapons from tf2 smh. Im also bad at managing my ammo and love the cow mangeler, and the phlog scorchshot combo is amazingly balanced.
im jason and also love the cow mangler
goddamnit tyler
FOR SHAME!
Im jeffrey and i love thermal thruster and backburner combo
Fucking Tyler man jesus
I think you could keep the enforcer if you reworked it to bleed for 8 seconds
Heh
But then of course you’d need to reduce the clip size to 1 and double the reload time
We all know Fish uses the Wrap assassin and the cleaver together because it causes BLEED
for 8 seconds
@@inthem8riX_ How deadly, maybe it must do 300% self damage to balance it.
@@RockylarsYT or maybe it could only have 1 bullet per clip that does 3 damage and reloads very slowly
wrap/cleaver is unironically a pretty disgusting combo tho. 12 direct from bauble, 50 direct from cleaver, and two stacks of bleeding on top. that's 16 damage per second for 8 second, so that's 128 damage if left unchecked. the 62 direct damage brings a light class to half health on its own and the 16 damage per second will kill them if it isn't negated within four seconds. pair those numbers with the shortstop for the ultimate mid-range scout loadout
just because bleed is a meme now doesn't mean you should underestimate what a mean bastard of a combo wrap/cleaver is
@@percher4824 its pretty good in payload when the map designers forgot to put a flank route in a chokepoint so you have to smash your head against a wall metaphorically until it clears out and you can push. Scout doesn't really have any non-suicidal tools for that situation other than projectiles
I had an interesting thought. Delete the Back Scatter, and give the mini-crits on backshots to Baby Face’s, to further reward using the boost for flank plays.
Okay diddy
Interesting...
why did you have to use that word to describe the back scatters effect
@@americanmapping832Lmfao
That's actually pretty good
Blue is the only person Ive ever seen that gets annoyed by the loose cannon, it's such a goofy and fun weapon
The loose cannon is one of the best concepts in my opinion.
...when you use it yourself, like the scorch shot
@@commanderknee3821nah even getting hit by it is just goofy fun, it's like a less offensive, more fun Force-a-nature
Your vendetta against the Loose Cannon is completely unjustified. The loose cannon is SIGNIFICANTLY different from just because of Cannon jumping alone, not even including the knockback or double donks
The loose cannon is a goddamn peak of game design, Blue. You're not getting rid of it just because you can't cope with the reality of playing a light class.
"I'm trying to describe the concept of iconic without using the word iconic" brother the word exists for a reason
One might say it's... Iconic
@@burnttoast5372 no its ironic
To be fair, you cant define a word by using the word in its definition
@@technorave555 We're not trying to _define_ iconic though. Like, yeah, if they wanted to, they could say "The Sandman is widely known and acknowledged especially for distinctive excellence within the TF2 community" but why bother with all that when you could just say "The Sandman is iconic to TF2." A lot more words to convey the same idea.
@@ToxicAtom thats very true
Blue I gotta say hearing your vendetta against the Loose Cannon has to be the biggest L from you I’ve heard. If cutting weapons because of redundancy is part of the reasoning then the Black Box should absolutely get the axe over the Loose Cannon if it came down to that. Since soldier already can get a source of healing through the conch. Not to mention that aside from the heal and one less rocket it’s the exact same as stock. Meanwhile the Loose cannon provides actual game changing effects. Such as cannon jumping, being a launcher more focused on killing players rather than buildings, and displacement of enemies due to the cannons knock back. Anyway you slice it I cannot see an argument for cutting the loose cannon over other options.
fish claims to hate stun and airblast but the loose canon is fine apparently lol
Because who is mindlessly spamming the loose cannon and successfully annoying people?
Demoman’s grenade launchers are already more suited to killing players which makes the loose cannon redundant. It’s even basically just another stickybomb launcher in terms of vulnerability due to the charge time.
Also the black box is a healing item that won’t take up the secondary slot, this means you can survive longer to keep other banners up for longer or run a shotgun to deal with pyro and use the rockets to ignore the afterburn.
@@sud1881 I disagree. A well timed double donk provides the burst damage necessary to kill players faster than 2 direct pills would. And if it doesn’t kill them the displacement of the impact shot is enough to almost guarantee a retreat or put the enemy in a position they wouldn’t want to be in. While the lack of impact explosions make it less suitable for buildings. It’s a give and take.
And yes while the black box and conch take up different slots I don’t believe that makes the redundancy argument irrelevant. I could’ve also targeted the winger or atomizer for instance. The fact that they’re in different slots I don’t think matters as much because they are still occupying the same niche. Regardless of whether it’s burst or over time both items are still giving the same benefit to soldiers. But I view the conch as more valuable to the game.
@@hyperevo7466 in the time that you perfectly charge the loose cannon to double donk a light class it would have been so much easier to just hit two pipes and move on, there really isn’t any killing potential that you gain from the loose cannon besides maybe saving ammo but then you have the issue of charge time basically being equal to the reload time you would have with other grenade launchers. Also the stun mechanics of just knocking players away just means that classes that get into close range get hit with a denial button for pretty much no effort since there’s no extra skill required to deny all classes from getting close to you.
The conch and the black box are different because the black box is about encouraging fully aggressive play with a shotgun to engage with and a black box to fall back on as your last bit of damage and a bit of extra healing. The conch is all about retreating after every fight and managing your ammo perfectly or else you die.
Crazy that Great Blue made a video all about european competitive tf2.
The Loose Cannon hill Blue chose to die on is one of the funniest takes I've ever seen in TF2, and I say that without exaggeration. I mean I've been playing the game since 2016 so I'm no veteran TF2 player but this might be the first time I've ever heard this level of hatred for the weapon. Genuinely a take almost on-par with the logical leaps in the rebalance video. Yeah, that one. I love that Blue tries to make it out as if it doesn't offer any different sort of playstyle to stock... as if it doesn't have shorter range, a unique charging and double-donk mechanic, a blast jump that absolutely CRUSHES pill jumping in every regard AND synergy as a good hybrid-knight weapon for flying Demoknights.
I also love the minor discussion near the end where Blue really tries to argue the FUCKING KUNAI deserves to be in the game more than the Loose Cannon. Even a reworked Kunai, existing alongside the Big Earner which does what a reworked Kunai should do INFINITELY better and in a more interesting way, it's not even close. Blue even says themselves that the overlap between the Kunai and the Big Earner is nearing redundancy!
(Also yes, aware this is just funny opinions, not taking it too seriously lmao)
haven't finished but I swear to god the neon annihilator better get the axe
TheBasedShow
have you considered that the human body is made up of water, and that's why the neon is good
@@violetchan6402 nah, I'm made 100% of that dawg in me
huh? The axe better get the neon annihilator?
TheFraudShow neon annihilator is peak tf2 and you cannot say otherwise you heretic
¿
Thank you fish for fighting for the loose cannon!
Damn, they really deleted my entire Pyro loadout.
Homewrecker, Reserve shooter, Phlogistinator.
Aka: 'I use these because they look cool'
"You know one of the co hosts is a Sniper main"
"How so?"
"He deleted most of Pyros Unlocks 💀"
"I guess that explains it 😢"
I feel ya.
yeah i didnt like them not thinking about subclasses
@@goodmusic4673
Yeah, kinda sinks the whole video for me b/c then that mostly leaves just an alternate way to play stock for most.
The other host is a complete pyro main though…
I hope the number of deleted weapons per class will be proportional to their total number of weapons.
@@sebastiandelgado943 tbf this is because his limited arsenal is also limited by the fact that it's mostly ass
Dude I'm watching this at midnight barely paying attention, as I just hear is "Yeah fuck you jason" and I'm like, who the hell is jason
Your son that you have to track down in the mall
@@stormhoughtJASON!!!
Content suggestion: "What if different unlocks were stock?"
Going through hypothetical timelines of how the game would have developed from there.
Pyro with Backburner as the stock weapons would have codified them as an ambush assassin.
Medic with Kritz as stock would have made the game extremely volatile as ome kritz wipes out a team, and with no defensive coutnermeasures you'd be force to try to pick the medic before he gets another charge.
Heavy with Brass Beast as stock... Doesnt change much really.
Scout with the Force o’nature would be a pain to deal with, making him a mobile glass cannon that will regularly push his targets off cliffs, if not outright deleting him.
Engineer with the Frontier Justice would legitimately be interesting. Imagine how creative they could get with these revenge effects, perhaps even giving his primary weapon more of a supportive aspect, essentially acting as a second medic without a medigun but a sentry instead.
Spy with the enforcer wouldn’t change much to be quite honest, it seems like they picked the wrong concept to begin with. Something to reward good position and precision aim would have been a better pick, but I guess sentries are a potentially big threat considering they cannot take critical hits.
Medic with the stock Kritz would affect a lot more than just gameplay. Meet The Medic would have to be completely changed.
@@JonathanNormandyNah because the lore in Meet The Medic is that the original Quick Fix broke after its first use and had to be rebuilt with a different Uber, so there's no reason to change it during the short
@@TheRoboKitty ah, your right. Thanks man.
@@JonathanNormandy Stock uber was made as a counter to sentries. If Kritz were designed as a base uber, I think Valve would have to redesign sentry as well to accommodate.
the tierlist getting smaller instead of making the video smaller or literally getting rid of it entirely is the most brainrot move of our generation
Lol yeah. It's a bit goofy but the consistent video size makes it a lot easier to edit. Plus, Subway Surfers gameplay in the corner memes aside, I think most people prefer to have something more to look at than just a static tier list should they actually want to watch instead of just putting it on in the background.
@@BluesRoost yes this is true, for me that was a good choice
@@BluesRoost I think this was a good way of doing it.
these people are nuts, they should start a podcast
I know! Both of them make me chuckle.
@@cosmicwafflesTF2 Chuckle? Nuts? I know what the should call it...
Pistachios Laugh
@@LobsterGodisCominggiggle cashews
"say that again"
@@August_NighttimeNekosnicker almonds
Dislikes are from Tyler, Jason, and Matt
I love the thumbnail lol.
"Delete 1 of Heavy's *4* lunchbox items? Nah keep it. However, 1 of Engineer's *3* secondaries at all? Delete it. Also now his only secondary unlock is the wrangler lmfao"
Cant beleive i got called out while half asleep with this in as background
Cutting arsenals in TF2 have always seemed like a strange case to me.
Strange cases don't exist you silly goose
You could also say that this is "unusual"?
atupid te
My *genuine* reaction:
@mrstudent9125 this comment HAUNTED by Satan himself
look man, I get it and I agree, but hearing that the jumper weapons would have to be cut hurts my soul. A large portion of the fun I've gotten from this game came from those two weapons.
Jumper Caber Knight terrorising Snipers on 2fort, anybody? XD
just use the regular launcher and heal lmao
Makes me sad to remove the quick fix. I think the increased heal is the least interesting part of it when compared to it following rocket jumps and other extra movement options. It's loads of fun to hop behind the enemy team with your pocket medic.
There quick fix is more of a gimmick weapon, in casual you can’t rely on teammates to put you somewhere good and in competitive it’s already banned so there wouldn’t be much point in keeping it since it’s just a casual terrorizer or a extra number in the list of banned competitive weapons.
I hate how Great Blue is so in favor of removing the Loose Cannon when the Black Box is LITERALLY THERE. Loose Cannon is fun, Black Box is boring.
Not to mention, Soldier gets FOUR PRIMARIES (not counting stock) in this hypothetical. On TOP of still having Conch?! Like bruh?
Keep these mfs away from balancing they clearly suck at it
if i coud i would delete 70% of all hats and ususuals
seriously, the majority of those things are trash (gen 1-3, discontinued halloween unusuals and the end of the line unusuals are better than modern unusuals)
Yeah because Massed Flies just looks sooooo much better than Loyalist's Coronet
Deleting the Rocket Jumper and keeping the Black Box is high-key delusional
Having a category labled "keep but rework" just seems weird to me because now it's hard to argue for the removal of any weapon: oh you're saying if we have to cut half the weapons, we'd get rid of this one? Well, how about [insert any number of hypothetical reworks], how can you still argue in favor of removing this weapon?"
I think we touched on it in the video, but "keep but rework" is for weapons where the concept is really cool but the existing implementation is not. Take the Bison for example - we both like the concept of a mid-range laser weapon, but obviously the current Bison is not the greatest weapon, so in order to keep it we'd want it to be tweaked a bit. You're right that we could theoretically put every weapon in that category if we thought of a good enough rework, but some weapons have a MUCH better starting point than others (compare the concept of the Liberty Launcher vs the Direct Hit for instance), and in those cases you wouldn't have to change much to make them incredibly useful. That's why each of the weapons we put in there had single-stat changes (swap the debuff the Sandman ball inflicts, slightly increase the Dalokohs' healing, etc), while most of the weapons we removed would have to be reworked from the ground up to be kept. Definitely a touchier choice for a video like this to include a "keep but rework" tier, but it gives us a lot more freedom to keep weapons that have massive potential/are way too powerful to keep otherwise.
You dont believe half the weapons should actually be removed. I do. We are not the same.
you believe half the weapons should be removed. i believe every weapon should be removed. we are not the same
I believe we should remove all classes except for engineer and all weapons except for the pistol
I believe we should remove all classes and add back the civilian with only his melee
I can't believe Great Blue and fish want to delete half the weapons, what whiny babies.
The long awaited update post jungle inferno. The Thanos update
I was heart broken seeing Sydney Sleeper in delete because for me personally its the one rifle that actually changes Sniper's playstyle enough to make him a support class like he is stated to be. I'm not a fan of default Sniper because it's more used as a super tryhard non-fun competitive style (mainly thanks to the likes of MGE and THOSE types of players driven by ego) so having a weapon that I could use to relax with and get assists was quite nice. I personally go for weapons that I can casually vibe to rather than stuff that makes me sweat at the game even after pouring nearly 8,000 hours into the game.
the sandman giving marked for death would just make it gamebreaking
imagine your medic just vanishing out of thin air cuz of a scout throwing a ball out of space
This is already a thing in Mann vs Machine, and it affects the Ball AND the Bat... But its an expensive upgrade
to be honest, it's not like there isn't at least 20 other things always threatening to make your medics vanish!
They would have to hit the medic (who should be behind people) and then the scout's team needs to hit that medic. If your medic has been hit that much by all of this, then ball or not they were likely dead since they were exposed and not positioning well behind allies all while without uber.
ya know, in the game where two classes are literally dedicated to making him vanish, I don’t think him occasionally becoming more vulnerable from the sandman is your biggest concern…
As if the soldier trying his hardest to kill me exclusively (when I play med) isn't making me vanish enough
You gotta keep the Family Business in the game cuz I had a dream where Valve made a meet the team type video where Heavy talks about how much a shotgun bearing his family's name means to him
This is the best argument in favor of anything ever
Mfer thinks hes MLK
CUTTING TF2'S ARSENAL IN HALF SEEMS LIKE A STRANGE CASE TO ME
Hear me out. Keep Huo-Long Heater but make it like the Cleaner's Carbine: do less damage overall, damage builds gauge, be rewarded with fire bullets.
Peak take.
"I don't think the sniper should have access to an easy one shot" MY BROTHER IN CHRIST HES THE SNIPER CLASS. HE ALREADY HAS AN EASIER ONE SHOT. SHOOTING YOU IN THE HEAD. LET ME HAVE MY SILLY COMBO 😭😭
I believe that they meant easy one shot in melee range
@clintriggen3554 my brother in Christ, have you heard of quickscoping??????
@@totolias2010 Yes, I think it's a huge issue because of that reason.
I love how SpaceGuy's rework suggestion for the Short Circuit was basically to just make it go back to it's old taser version
20:10 I feel so called out right now as a Tyler.
We are so desperate for content we are deleting it now
The jumpers deserve to be kept because they provide an alternative playstyle with noticeable drawbacks. It’s weird to keep the Winger, but delete the Jumpers.
They do, but in the context of removing half the weapons in the game, the playstyles they provide are so incredibly niche and mostly found in troll or educational situations. And I think this is mostly taking 'serious' play into consideration
@@alexhughes4683 I agree about the rocket jumper. However, the sticky jumper provides a super mobile demoman with a grenade launcher. That's a significantly different playstyle that is dangerous. In maps with a large skybox, a sticky jumper demo with a grenade launcher can fly in and take out engi nests or good snipers.
Basically, a sticky jumper demo becomes the fastest-moving class in the game, and he still has a primary weapon that can kill any class/building. It is not a pure troll loadout like trolldier with the market gardener.
@LASAGNA_LARRY Valid. Very valid. I'd rather lose a another weapon to keep sticky jumper, since demoman has essentially 2 primaries - trading in one for more mobility is a pretty decent thing.
@@LASAGNA_LARRY This is a very good point, and Demoknight does benefit from Sticky to be more of an ambush knight meaning as a whole this is just a great weapon for Demo.
The sticky jumper is a more versatile charge, available to almost any Demo build.
I don't mind them removing the sticky jumper, but removing the rocket jumper seems like a horrible choice, as it entirely removes a pretty popular sunclass. Your goal when deleting half the weapons should be to cut out redundancy and keep the weapons that provide fun alternatives to stock.
Sydney Sleeper being cut is insane to me because it IS a support sniper rifle. Being able to extinguish teammates from afar and basically marking people for death at a distance makes it a good support weapon. You could give teammates going 1v1 an advantage by shooting at the enemy.
The Sydney Sleeper is less of a support weapon and more of a lower skill floor weapon. Like you one shot light classes and deal significant damage to anyone else, that’s not support your just dealing damage. The Jarate effect barely even matters since dealing 150 to a heavy means they are going to die and the Jarate effect hardy matters.
Nobody has ever relied upon a sniper to extinguish a fire on them, it’s either healing or a pyro; a sniper removing the fire is kinda hard to do anyways so it’s not very practical unless you stand far behind your teammates and wait for a pyro to ignite someone instead of shooting enemies.
The Jarate effect never really helps on 1v1 fights, you either fully charge the rifle and insta kill the enemy or you don’t charge the rifle and the effect disappears before a rocket could even be fired in time.
@@sud1881The extinguish doesn't require full charge to use. On top of that, every sniper rifle does 150+ damage AND crits on headshot, unlike the Sydney Sleeper. If you're using it as a weapon, you're basically nerfing yourself. It's meant to be a support weapon.
@@musicsheep9816 it’s not a support weapon though, it’s just a lower skill floor weapon, the 150 from bodyshots is enough to win a fight on its own so you aren’t helping teammates as much as you are just deleting enemies.
@@sud1881 Again, every other sniper rifle does that already.
@@musicsheep9816 just because every sniper deals 150 damage doesn’t invalidate the Sydney Sleeper’s lack of support utility, it’s just a damage rifle that is easier to use than the other damage rifles sniper has.
This is definitely based off of the cutting the smash roster in half trend. Which I think is pretty neat.
I've never seen anyone beef with the loose cannon like this. I love finding out about people's random beefs.
Whining about crit cola, sandman's stun, scorchshot? I can bear that.
but delete holiday punch? Your opinion discarded
here here
Balance to the kunai : give it a cooldown on the health on backstab. It prevents chain killing like crazy while feeling unkillable and makes efforts of focus fire actually work
How about this: You take more knockback, think about it, it may give him EVEN MORE survivability BUT you can move the spy away from your teammates to stop him from stabbing them and he could do even more flashy crap for those spy montages.
yeah no, spy already has probably the most things he has to keep track of (up there with engineer) if he had to keep track of whether his knife would give him his buff it would just be infuriating to use
@@monkeeboy830 How about this: get good you fucking noobs lmao. If chainstabs actually cause you significant problems, that's 100% on you being a dogshit player
blues loose cannon take is shit
58:20 “Beapon reskrins gave alyays bin a stronge case to me.”
i dont think getting rid of loose cannon is great because really its the most unique sidegrade to the grenade launchers, and has one of the most interesting/tf2 concepts of a cannonball launcher as a weapon. also i really dont believe your idea that double donkls do not take skill.
I was anticipating the end discussion about the remaining undecided ones, and I did not leave disappointed.
Half of all life. Completely random, rich and poor alike. They called me a mad man.
The Concheror being a keep weapon, I think justifies deleting the Black Box from the game.
They both cover the same niche of self-sustain at the cost of firepower. But the Conch does it in a more interesting, and more meaningful way by affecting the entire team.
And in the place of the Black Box, I would resurrect either The Blutsauger, or the Holiday Punch. Not sure which one of those two I would bring out but I kinda lean toward Holiday Punch
Half of the weapons in Tf2 have always seemed like a strange case to me
I feel oil inside my veins, and its STALE
Oiled up veins 🤤
4:06 is like the Greatest line in anything ever
Yay! Another blue’s roost video! I love you work here, keep it up!!!👍 👍👍
10:00 the critacola was to make up for the baby face's lack of minicrits iirc?
yeah but it made zero sense with the original soda popper and fan o war (which were in the same set lmao)
Removing the Soda Popper is honestly weird, its the only scout shotgun that people actually argue stands at the same level as stock, it changes your playstyle significantly too, compared to something like the brass beast which is just boring af.
I like brass beast, but think Soda Popper is boring. Soda Popper is just FaN but less fun and more good.
As a TF2 classic player, (I don't play live TF2 much anymore), you would be amazed by how unnecessary the new weapons really are. There's only a couple of weapons that a class needs to change their playstyle or get over obstacles that stock cannot.
Yeah. With the expection of medic with the crossbow, pyro without the melee untily and at times heavy without sandvich, most class can work fine with all stock. In fact classes are the best with all stock or in the most balance like sniper and spy.
@@starmaker75 I know but i fuckin love the beggers bazooka
i mean tbh, thats kinda intentional to keep tf2 from being p2w. and honestly after playing too much pvz i just realized that weapon synergies are more important in shaping a playstyle than singular weapons, so something that is deemed unnescesarry like the neon, cowmangler, etc. can remove a playstyle by itself
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaased
Variety is part of what has kept this game going though
even before watching this video, goodbye liberty launcher 😔 you won't he making it.
I think shahansha is a decent idea for sniper melees if it was good
Damn heavy suddenly became purple and very wrinkly before holding up a golden Gauntlet and saying I am inevitable
the original getting an honorable mention at the end as a reskin with a minor difference makes me mildly upset that the cow mangler's unique firing angle wasn't brought up
Rework the gas passer to be a flame retardant - extinguishes teamates and provides afterburn immunity while soaked (same time as jarate and mad milk) but also have it apply the wet condition for combo crits with the neon annihilator.
I disagree with this heavily, this would just punish the enemy pyro for no reason. It would be incredibly unfair for the enemy and it would make pyro even weaker than he already is, probably almost as weak as spy
The your eternal reward has always reminded me of the horror movie “The thing” like your team mate that you know is real wonders into a room alone and then comes back and all of a sudden he is an imposter
IMPOSTOR?? AMOGN US????/?/?
Tyler, just say that you're sorry and we'll forgive you
What Tyler did was unforgivable
Rework concept for the Short Circuit: -Remove M2 (the electric ball) , -Roll the delete projectiles mechanic from the M2 into the M1 (the low damage, fast firing, short range zap).
It maintains the purpose of the short circuit but forces it to require actual aim and precision while destroying the game-breaking huge ball of opaque but penetrable electricity that takes zero skill to use effectively, and gives the SC a valid place in a world without the Wrangler's shield.
Delete Sniper and we could save a lot of time and headaches for the game down the road
I did this personally before watching the video and the only really notable thing is that i put every single unlockable sniper secondary in delete (i didn't have a rework section btw)
Can’t believe Great Blue thought that Adol- I mean Thanos was right
See me personally, I believe that the Baby Face Blaster should have gone into the "Keep but Rework" catagory. It has an interesting concept of damaging people to gain more speed, which can work really well with weapons like the Flying Guillotine, but with how it works now with a FLY SNEEZE cutting down your boost to barely anything is heavily punishing. Its fun on paper but it punishes you too much so I feel like it can be reworked to make an interesting playstyle for Scout
I’m so happy the Bison made it through all the way
If this was applied to tf2, might as well remove soldier, demo, and pyro’s melee slot from the game, free up some space on my pc, anything the isn’t necessary to the function of the game just remove because I have so much less reason to play either class or use pyro’s melee with these changes
I love that my favorite spy loadout survived, even tho i was sure both would be killed, the eternal reward + Cloak and Dagger
I would say, especially here, that Demo does, in fact, need the Cannon. The only other (non-booty) primary is just a grenade launcher with longer range.
I swear if the bison gets deleted I’m rioting
I like how this list completely cripples MVM meta lmao
(also speaking of mvm bring back schizo mvm pls I will quit my job and go apply for a job at valve so I can delete the vaccinator if you do)
This video reminded me of one of the reasons I love about TF2 wo much, and it's the fact that with so many weapon that let you change your playstyle, the ones that tend to overlap with one another can be used as way to tweak an already established playstyle rather than completely changing it
What I mean for example is lets say on Scout I want extra Horizontal Mobility and a ranged projectile on the side for range damage, my go to would be Stock, the Clever and the Atomizer, but if I wanted to change up my weapons a bit without sacrificing the original idea behind, I could instead equip the Winger and the Wrap Assassin
I know that's not the best example but point is, It's the fact that even after deleting half the "unnecessary" weapons it most likely won't also sacrifice a lot of already existing playstyles and setups that already exist, it simply limits how you can adjust it to your liking, and I think that's really cool for an game older than half its fanbase to achieve
1:09:32 communiststickonastick-gaming confirmed?
On the topic of Jumpers- Jump maps aren't official. So I don't think they should have been considered.
My grip with the Soda Popper is that it was originally giving the player Mini-Crits because its design uses the Crit-a-Cola, but now that it gives the player multiple jumps instead, being designed around the Crit-a-Cola makes no sense. Maybe rework it around Mini-Crits and give the multiple jumps mechanic to a separate weapon?
35:45 you know calling the pain train that does make me wonder what if other weapons augmented your stats at base the same way the pain train does. Because its design philosophy is different to many other melees, like the escape plan’s utility only activates when active.
Imagine an alternative universe where weapons like the escape plan or winger had their active stats made passive in some way. Interesting idea though I don’t think that needs to be in the game, especially because the philosophy of “letting you see when an enemy’s stats have changed via their weapon being active or a wearable” is probably more fair.
I'd still keep the Scorch Shot if Soldier and Demoman get to spam their superior ranged explosives.
Counter argument: spam their own back at them
(Don't worry, I can't airblast worth anything)
Preach brotha!
@@marshaenderheartI think he meant they can spam at a choke point so it's fair for pyro to do the same or something like that.
20:53 stock rockets screw over scouts more than the direct hit imo cuz of splash damage
(gripes for engineer are justified tho)
I think the Cleaner's Carbine could work, if it helped you clean up. Get rid of the charge meter, and instead give it up to 5 seconds of mini-crits after an enemy survives a headshot, that ends early if that enemy dies during the 5 seconds.
A way to balance the kunai that won't make it unfun to fight against or overpowered would be to make the health threshold be filled gradually rather than instantly. Think like a medigun rather than a crossbow bolt
great idea but what if instead of deleting 50% of tf2's weapons we delete 100% of sniper's and spy's weapons and 0% of he other ones
How about we just delete everythi- oh wait that already happens when the item servers are offline
Deleting the phlog is like taking away a mosquito's ability to suck blood
It's an integral part of Pyro and his culture
Absolutely atrocious take, I love it
@@Dalek-br6nu Thank you
On the topic about Heavy being Boring, we should give him more options and make him "Heavy Weapons Guy" instead of just "Suppressive Fire". Like, give him a cannon that has like 20 rpm but could delete a light class with a direct hit and explode to shrapnel on impact with a player. Maybe give it the gimmick that you can also toggle between "detonate on impact" and "timed fuse" where you see a red laser from the barrel that ends where the round would scatter into a supercharged shotgun blast that you can adjust with scroll wheel or smthn. And call it Vindicta or sum
Valve realized they added too many hats into TF2 and now the game is out of memory. Valve doesnt want to remove hats because they would lost gambling money, so instead they chose to remove the weapons they can't balance.
6:42 PENIS SCOUT MENTIONED, OMG, I'M CHUCKLING MY NUTS
weapon rescreens have always seemed like a strange case to me
Did he ever even promote this second channel? I didn't even know about it till UA-cam recommended it to me
mvm scout mains seething that the fan of war is being deleted
I love these podcasts because I also watch Fsos streams. He loves talking about the game, but he gets tilted whenever he actually plays the game 😭
Me fr