How to Reason with a Narcissist | Can they be Persuaded?
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- Опубліковано 6 кві 2019
- This video answers the question: Is there any way to persuade narcissist? I've heard other versions of the same question: Is there any way to reason with somebody who's narcissistic? Is there any way to encourage behavioral change?
Narcissism is on a continuum. If we believe somebody is narcissistic that doesn't necessarily mean anything. We would have to know what traits they have and to what extent. The continuum extends from healthy, normal, and adaptive on one end all the way over to pathological on the other end. One of the pathologies that's associated with narcissism would be narcissistic personality disorder, but somebody wouldn't necessarily need to have that to have narcissism that's interfering in their life or to have narcissism that's making it difficult to interact with them. There are two types of narcissism: grandiose (overt) and vulnerable (covert). Grandiose narcissism is characterized by a sense of entitlement, arrogance, social dominance, and confidence. Somebody who has grandiose narcissistic features genuinely believes they are superior.
vulnerable narcissism is characterized by hypersensitivity to criticism, insecurity, anger, aggression, and a lot of shame. Somebody who has vulnerable narcissistic features doesn't fully believe that they are superior. They are trying to believe they're superior, but they don't quite buy the self-deception.
Reasoning with a narcissist is like trying to nail jello to a wall.
Maybe you are not open minded enough. You can reason with anyone, except if they are real psychopaths.
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@@krzykizza952 what is the meaning of your statement pyscopaths give them Spiritual knowledge bible helps with everyone.1➗208=
Nail a fart to a wall
Fool's errand
If there is the option of avoiding the Narc I would take that route. They are not worth the hassle to be honest.
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@@numbersletters2920 0.004784689
hazel brown Totally. I disagree with the notion that we’re supposed to engage these people
@@irenageorgieva8011 Yep. Let them wallow in their own cesspool.
What about the narcissist that doesn't want to be that way? That want to change, and is actively working on trying change? I'm learning of my traits and would have never considered myself narcissist. I am. I'd say vulnerable narcissist. As would my therapist. Maybe not all people are on the same exact track. But I would have to respect someone not wanting to go through the bullshit and work with a narcissist. But demonize or vilify? Eh. I try hard not to do that with people. Maybe others can as well.
I thought this was excellent.
I mimic this to the way we use words carefully with children.
Narcissists are emotionally stunted adults.
Narcissism is so common in the US.
I wonder if my mother knows? She is very simplistic with her reasoning and I rather like it. One thing that works, "offering ways to be even better". It's similar to criticism, but it's all in the wording, so it's different in spirit.
Wow, so rather than admonish them for emotional immaturity - expect it.
That’s so sad for some people. They are arrested, truly very old children. This makes so much sense now…
Yes! I used the second strategy almost instinctively with a boss who had really strong narcissist traits, its something I learned watching the women on my family dealing with children- somehow the men in my family tend to be emotionally stunted too
My step dad is a narcissist and it's SO hard to talk to him about anything because he will twist my words into a criticism against him. He thinks even benign comments are "disrespectful". It takes a tremendous amount of foresight and maturity to swallow your feelings, humble yourself, and negotiate with a toddler holding a bomb.
Well Anna being in your situation can be very trying I know. I was in that situation growing up. My narcissistic father was 89 and my mother was dead. I was the only one that took him in. For the past three years I’ve listen to his pathetic remarks. But now he is going into an assisted living home. The point is the situation you are in will come to an end. So rather than focusing on his problem. Focus on developing yourself to be in a situation where you do not need his financial support. One thing I learned from living with my father these past three years is how not to treat people. So have a goal, set out the steps to reach that goal, and let that be your focus and put your energy into that. Don’t react to their cutting words just act like everything‘s OK. Because it will be.
Make them think it was their idea.
Sophia Lahen Hun, how are we supposed to make them think it was their idea of they change their minds 10 times a day?
1DarkBlossom Not all of them do. Some are quite focused, but they have to be right and the answer person, it takes some finesse, if one can stand to bother.
Sophia Lahen Never ever met one who actually stood his point for a long time. They change their minds to fit their delusions or to make other people look dumb. It’s actually hilarious.
@@1DarkBlossom Why are you talking about "them" are you having such low understanding of what this diagnosis is, that you generalize so much. I suggest you explain your point of view next time, and don't hop on the hate train, like a bunch of egoistic all knowing never hurt anyone people.
Krzyki Zza Because it’s them making drama vs us trying to understand their drama. Period. At least until we see through it. I won’t even try to sugarcoat their behaviour. It’s plain toxic. Since narcissism is a spectrum, it’s also needless to say that normies won’t hurt anyone, ever. A normie’s toxicity level isn’t that high, that’s it. Thank you for your attention. Have a great day.
Before I was informed, I would try to convince my MIL that I was lovable by “killing her with kindness “(for 25 years!). When she was cruel, and I would pull away, she would then shower me with gifts. I thought this was her way to apologize, thus I would open myself up again for more of her manipulative games. She played my young, kind, open-hearted, forgiving, self like a fiddle. She was able to hurt me so deeply, but no more. I clearly see now that I played a role in her abuse of me by trying way too hard to be accepted. I smartened up when she began to abuse our daughter. We have had 5 years of low contact and the flying monkeys still swarm. I am so happy that my marriage has survived. I am not hateful. In fact, I am so thankful for the wisdom I have gained. I do not really think one can reason with a deep narc. The trick to surviving is to find a way to move PAST the anger of the great injustice. You, Dr Grande, are helping so many who suffer. Your work is extremely valuable. Thank you from my heart!
'The Great Injustice'...this is a perfect way to describe having to deal with a narcissist. IMO one example of justice for them would be if they were not able to procreate.
Goodness, these are such helpful videos. Thank you
Exactly what I thought! I thought that’s how people apologize when they don’t know how to say it. The behavior would just continue.
@@Justice4ALL.120 MIL often resents the woman who stole her son from her, it’s not just narcissism but something somewhat natural and common. It’s her issue though
@@ginag2375 it’s like if a parent remarried and your step parent stole your mom or dad. How would you feel? But also women are strange creatures. Some women have weird feelings toward their kids be it they resent and want to kill the child, or have a relationship that fulfills their romantic and sexual or relationship needs, or are dominant or neglectful
Whatever you would like them to do, simply ask for the opposite of that.
Your so right. That definitely works..
Or make them think it’s their idea.
As usual another one who has hit the nail on the head. I know someone very arrogant and grandiose, and extremely contrary. As a joke I've sometimes said to her brother, who is a good friend of mine and who often tells me about her tiresome behaviour, to "do or say the opposite of what you want her to do to get the reaction you want" ie manipulation (Sad or what? !). He doesn't do it, because he hates playing games. And I don't blame him at all. It is very wearisome and fatiguing dealing with people like his sibling.
Yep I told my narc to leave me alone and lo and behold...
Yeah but it’s so exhausting :/ and then I become part of the problem, manipulating ppl :( but how else to communicate? PS it’s my dad
LOL! "The non-narcissist might be repulsed if you say, 'Hey, go up to that narcissist and say something great about them'" LOL! You are totally the type of person I would have befriended in school days and would have held you dear for your seriousness and charm. You're very intelligent and also very endearing Dr. Grande. Thank you for all you do for us!!
That is so kind to say - thank you so much!
The only way to deal with narcissists is to systematically remove them from your life and social circles. Cut them off. You don't negotiate with evil.
Yes play along with their false reality..and agree with their lies..take abuse lying down..let them violate your boundries and destroy your soul. OR...move very far away.
Good, if you can manage it.
Well put. (put a 'don't' before '...let them violate your...').
@@Klove5343 Yes, that is a hard one but there must be a solution somehow.
@@Dreamskater100 : EZ's comment was ironic, no?
@@ShunyamNiketana prayer and bible study good solutions.1➗210=
NPD runs in my family, i believe. There is no actual diagnoses but my father was very grandiose, egotystical, and abusive. He gaslighted me for years, calling himself the "king of the house" and only showing us affection when we would meet his standards. My mother on the other hand is codependant, and isnt assertive at all. I love her so much, but she spoiled us children growing up.. basically, growing up my siblings constantly got told we were simultaneously perfect just the way we are, and worthless/stupid/fat/selfish...
I was, and have always been, the problematic kid but ive always believed I was special for no reason...i'm self destructive, artsy, kind of a drama queen and I have more of an attatchment to my mother... i was diagnosed with bpd, but I honestly dont see it. However, vunerable narcassism fits like a freaking glove. I don't know, i'll talk to proffessional and try to be vunerable. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction!
It’s also a way to run a household for the sake of survival. The parent has more resources and knows how to survive but a kid is clueless because they don’t have the life experience, using the king of the house thing and applying standards is a way to pass along generational wisdom and good ideas and have the kids see a reason follow it. Having a dad that is too lenient is a problem too.
Hey Addison. I found out i was narcissistic in a vulnerable fashion and underneath my mask i found... Complete borderline qualities. They come out when you realize that the person you decieve others (and yourself) into loving and believing in is just a facade. And underneath? A child who feels unlovable, terrified of abandonment, and desperate for genuine connection.
I’m impressed at how honest you can be about your situation. It’s not easy no matter what type of psychological condition you have. I hope you find success in this area and in your life going forward.
@@Beanybag2 This sentence "they come out when you realize that the person you deceive others(and yourself)into loving and believing in is just a facade" is very well-said and important. I think experts should focus on this quote. It could be that it is the best way to help a vulnerable narcissist and probably the self-aware vulnerable narcissists are the best ones to help this community. I admire your courage and wish you the best.
well, i think they don’t change, actually i think they get worst as they age....
They do. I've seen it in my family. They get more insecure because they can't handle aging plus they use their lifes experience to craft their Narcissism.
Their behaviour is more ingrained as they get older. And yes, their fading looks also upsets them greatly.
Eegs、 mri、 cmt scan , well bioneurology is helpful and medication is helpful and risky .it is just dominanting by risk or dominanted by helpful.1➗204=
I would’ve LOVED to try this with my aging, narcissistic mother, but she is fixed, worsening and very paranoid, particularly against me, who’s always been there for her, rather than my sister, who hasn’t. I couldn’t even convince her last here that 32 degrees Fahrenheit was freezing, unless she was trying to gaslight me out of that fact. I love my mother but, I’ve got better pursuits.
Absolutely ! Worse with Age
I have read many of the comments and many are on the money. My experience of people who are highly narcissistic (diagnosed or not): do not cross them because they will hurt you. They will tie you up on knots. You really have to know what it feels like to be in a relationship with a narcissist who is at the high end of the spectrum, especially if they are a close relative. I've walked away because the individual concerned doesn't think there's anything wrong with them and really you can't win (not that one wants to be in that kind of 'win-lose' relationship anyway: it's what they do though) - unless you give up being who you are and capitulate to their every needs, wants and whims. And believe you me they have many. And yours don't matter.
Sadly, I have found this to be true. If you try to change a narcissist and they really change, then they are no longer a narcissist and maybe never were. If you try and try and they just get worse, you are probably dealing with a true narcissist. It's best to keep some distance between you.
@@melodysledgister2468 THIS!👆
@@melodysledgister2468 Agree. Probably a good test to see if they are really narcissists or not.
I cannot change a narcissist, all I can change is MY behavior and how I respond in their presence. Thank you for your insight, excellent.
I am sooooo fed up with covert narcissism. I am even more fed up with how they (for the most part) get away with their wicked behaviors, leaving a trail of damaged people in their wake. The standard advice is get away from them, as they will never change. Well, I am ALL for getting away from them (except how do I turn my back on the effect it is having on my grandchildren?) There seems to be no useful advice on how to help them. In this case, the narcissist has an influential job and a 'title' that others admire, and her father (also a covert narcissist) does as well. In addition, he has cultivated friendships with VERY influential people in our small community. I could give a lot of examples as proof they are indeed covert narcissists; however, no one would believe me as they are viewed by most other people as wonderful, kind, etc. They are both extremely charming out in the world. No one realizes what goes on in private.... their jealousy (of their own children..something that was previously inconceivable to me), the put downs, the rage, the crying for every and for no reason, the guilt trips, the lack of empathy, the use of gaslighting techniques and the smear campaigns, and on and on and on ad nauseum. What is the answer for children of these people? There is none to my knowledge. My unconditional love, attempts to build their self-esteem, as well as getting them out of their home and away from her as much as possible, etc., in an effort to protect them just isn't enough. It really is too awful..so much so that I cannot find words adequate enough to describe it. (Most who have not had the displeasure of dealing with a narcissist do not have a full understanding of all that it entails. I only found out while trying to figure out wth was happening and why when things amped up after the birth of my 1st granddaughter and my subsequent remarriage. Prior to this knowledge (that I was living happily without...proof that ignorance actually can be bliss), I thought narcissism was 'just' being very vain...if only this were the case. As a direct result of the behaviors and actions of these covert narcissists, my rose-colored glasses have been shattered beyond repair. For the first time in my adult life, I have no plan of action for how to 'fix' a problem I (from wanting to protect children I love) am experiencing. Given I have searched everywhere and can find no solution, it would seem no one else can solve this problem either.
I'll share this, I'm also speaking out of experience. If you try the positive route, complementing the narcissist on something they don't actually do well, and you ask them what their secret is, they're going to see you as less capable than them. This leads to getting loads of unsolicited advice by them to the point of also receiving a percentage of bad advice. When you do something differently than they advised you on, they're going to lash out in anger and eventually start devaluing you if they haven't already.
Your advice sounds good Dr.,it sounds like a mental chessmatch.i usually dont have the patience unfortunately.
Yes, mental chess match.
Jerry,
I don't have the energy.
Well main subject math phychology take a back set .1➗211=
OMG, this is the first time I've really understood the difference between Grandiose and Vulnerable, specifically which one I was married to!
When every single slightly negative comment is perceived as a deep personal insult? That gets old really fast. Especially looking back on a string of arguments that felt like they came from nowhere.... Turns out that just about any attempt to build partnership in a new marriage is actually a piercing insult!
Some baffling classics to evoke the wounded response include:
"you should try this cool other way to do that thing"
"this mistake/miscommunication has happened, what can we do to prevent it from being an issue in the future?"
"didn't you say you were going to put the dishes IN the dishwasher instead of ON TOP of it?"
... and even "I'm so glad you're home! Can you please take the dogs outside with you, as they've had no exercise all day because my broken tail bone makes it agony to move."
If I'd had the knowledge and tools from this video alone, life would have been somewhat more pleasant. But ah well, I'm out now and got a great dog out of the deal. 😁🐾
I instinctively tried both of these techniques throughout my marriage to what I believe is a narcissist. They worked to a point but only for a limited time. In the end I got sick of putting in so much effort to get so little benefit back so I gave up and went full criticism. His behaviour got worse n worse of course and now we’re almost divorced 🤞 it won’t be long now.
Mel84ish putting so much effort in after 39 years of misery has brought me to a place where I’m standing up now to the awful criticism and the constant put downs ... going separate ways after Christmas when the family have all gone home. I’m so sad, I invested so much into this relationship and into this family but this one man is destroying my relationships with my sons now and he has managed to completely desecrate one of my relationships with my middle son by telling him terrible lies about me fortunately my other two sons don’t believe him ... it’s all so terribly sad. What has kept me with him for so long is that I have always focussed on the good in him and used the mantra that none of us are perfect to keep going. I’ve tried so hard but I end up blaming myself all of the time telling myself that it must be me maybe I could do better. It is so difficult to be married to this type of person because of all the commitments/obligations/family and not least the financial concerns of being on my own because he absolutely owns the purse strings. I feel so tortured and alone because I don’t want my sons worrying about me and distressing them as they have kids jobs and mortgages etc ... hope this makes sense and that someone else out there understands how wretched and trapped and scared that I
Am feeling right now. Thank you Dr Grande for your amazing enlightenment which has enabled me to somewhat make sense of the madness that I’m living in every day.
I enjoyed this. Narcissists drive us crazy, but for a sad reason. As someone who used to be much more narcissistic, I can say that there is a possibility to become less narcissistic, stronger inside, and thus able to stop focusing on the internal wound and actually think about others and their feelings :)
I’m dealing with an extremely sensitive situation with a state licensed social worker that’s literally tried to ruin my life. She feel as though she wants me to be completely subservient. Outside of besmirching my character, gaslighting, and discreding my claims, She takes the credit for the efforts made my others. I believe this woman to be dangerous and pathological. Since I’m legally blind and am battling other physical health issues; I’ve recorded a great deal of our conversations for notation purposes. This has angered her greatly. Now I’m working towards clearing my name. How can a person like that rise to a position where they hold so much power over another? I was left homeless, threatened with criminal charges, criminalized, vilified, and briefly institutionalized... without just cause; My home, possessions, dogs, and reputation were stripped away in one days time, based on false allegations made. My saving grace is that she can’t help but to brag verbally on making said [false] allegations while threatening to make more. The same allocations that set everything in motion. Her callousness is documented... now I’m trying to figure out how to legally/ properly move forward, IMHO her license should be suspended.
Yay for "going in the side door" (indebted to my former husband for that phrase for sidestepping resistance). Effective parents of typically-developing teens do this type of thing well -- not surprising, in light of the natural narcissism of adolescence. Since this stage "recycles" some of the core issues of toddlerhood (around control, independence, etc.), I'm thinking that -- literally! -- blithely stepping around a tantruming 2-yr. old, then rewarding him/her with attention for regained self-control is an analogous move. This alignment of developmental issues echoes Dr. G's (brilliant!) observation that we are [providentially] narcissists as infants, and cease to be to the extent that we grow up, [mercifully] outgrowing the need for self-focus/self-protection. So coherently insightful, as usual. 🙂
Thank you :)
@@freelectron2029 Ha! Yes, I'm a native speaker! This is unique feedback. It is easier to express complex ideas in a page of formal writing than in a "compacted" comment structure. Sorry it's taxing; feel free to skip it!
@@tuck-brainwks-eutent-hidva1098 I do love how you express this! Astute.
To avoid criticism is great advice. If I express a want, a need, or an obvious dream, my SO takes it as criticism. If I get excited and point out something cute as we walk past a shop, I’m shot down.
He says he does not acknowledge negativity. And he doesn’t, at all. That means that if I mention anything other than what is, it is completely ignored, or he does the complete opposite. I noticed it after he’d been deployed for 9 months.
That he does not acknowledge negativity, even in the form of a hope, means there is no way to improve anything.
When I taught my son, or helped him with homework, he told my son that was negative and cruel and demeaning. It’s like being trapped in hell for me. But while he doesn’t acknowledge these “negatives” his life is “amazing” all because of Jesus. It’s insane.
Arrogance is not same as confidence, but more the lack of
I tried to calmly talk about an issue with my mother, bad idea, she tried to strangle me, I escaped and kept a distance.
If I said anything at all to someone like this, I wouldn't care how they took it. They can learn from it or not. I am to that point in my life where I will just create distance or walk away.
Danger, Danger, Will Robinson! I mean Sandy. You better be careful not to cause a Narcissistic Injury and set off that intense Narcissistic Rage... Narcissists are impulsive and "Kill you now, apologize later", is probably not so good for the victim.
Not only that, but you're not too likely to get that apology, either!
I have been dealing with a overt Narcissist for over 30 years and the truth is that they will capitulate at times,but from my experience they will adapted to what ever circumstances that they need to in order to accomplish their aim at that point ,yet looking back on the past actions, they ALWAYS Snap back to their original Self,and I believe that it’s the Paranoia influences that makes this happen (91 years old) and he is Still playing games...
Well I will have to wait and see if he is like this 50 years from now! 😑 I dont know where it stems from or how I managed to get myself in this position. I wish you all the best X
“Be wise as serpents and innocent as doves” seems to be axiomatic here - you can’t be truthful with a Narc but you sure don’t have to actively wish them any ill.
It’s challenging because Narcissists violate others and it really seems they should pay for it. We might imagine they have a bad run in with their gangster friends or be imprisoned for tax fraud. Don’t let them make you evil.
Using a fictitious character to point out what aspects of a narcissist's behaviour are unacceptable is a genius idea.
narcs and drug addiction go hand in hand...it is impossible to deal with especially with an enabler on hand...
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ali bre I agree I’ve been clean 20 years and had most of all these traits .
Yes it’s possible. I have done it. But a word of caution...”Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you.” Nietzsche
I like your videos because it helps me change my narcissistic ways by becoming more aware of it and think twice when I get a selfish mindset. Thank you.
It’s incredibly helpful that you differentiate between the work related narcissist, and the romantic narcissist in this video. I don’t think there is a profession where no one has difficulty with a narcissistic trait. It would be better to persuade them than skip from one job to another. Thanks for your clarity.
After spending tens of years with Narc Parents i got told so much BS and only during the last few weeks i have figured out what was going on all along. They don't love you they love themselves a lot more that is my take on it anyway.
Yes, a narcissist always has to be number one.
The most valuable lesson I learned in grad school was to go with the resistance. I hypothesize that interventions with narcissists not only depend on the critical aspects of delivery, but also whether the relationship with the interventionist is positive or negative. As a mental health professional, one cannot avoid contact with such individuals. We all have value and the capacity for change: a positive relationship cultivates such for both. There seems a tendency for people to admonish those who display narcissism: they are better than that. This talk was so helpful, as narcissism comes in many forms due to a variety of diagnoses. Thanks!
You're welcome :)
Surprisingly I'd use both techniques over the years. Flattery/positive feedback does work like a charm but it's so draining to me because I cannot tolerate myself being so 'fake' and inauthentic. Whereas negative info on a fictitious character NEVER worked with the narc in my life.. She is too much in denial to even consider that she does that 'awful' behavior (whatever it is at the time)... She even joins in on scrutinizing this despicable behavior and claims "I can never do that to my own"!!!
Hopeless.. zero insight!
I just need tons of patience and a way to keep my tongue inside my mouth... I have learned to establish solid boundaries, though, when it comes to my own life choices.
I've spent most of my life as an ear listening and caring for people until my mum died last year. While looking after mum about 8 years ago I became ill myself, which has somewhat incapacitated me. So really for the first time Inn my life most of the people I listened to their illnesses and problems had to be an ear for me occasionally....not a chance! I was dumbfounded at how uncaring and self centre some people are if it's not all about them! I now have hardened and don't particularly like myself for this. I don't want to just identify myself with just being my health problems so would rather not be all I talk about but also don't want to hear anymore about those people's problems I listened to for year's, it depresses me and when needed the support I gave them wasn't reciprocal. I can see the shock in their faces when I cut them off (I never did before) with "I know how you feel I'm going through it myself and don't want to talk about it" it just drags me down. Am I being narcissistic? As this attitude is new to me but I can't handle the empathy I used to have for them. They disappointed me.....this is my way of coping with that.
Your disappointment is perfectly justified imo. This situation btw sounds quite familiar to me. I think, people like us have to retract our natural kindness a bit more and distance us much more from others- observing what the other person does and in particular what he/she does NOT . This proactive caring for others leaves us pretty much blinded to the contribution that other do not provide and this leads to dissapointment in the end. We have to protect ourselves right from the beginning, no one else will do this for us. Except for people with a really good upbringing. But this is rare nowadays. Take care!
that "talking negatively about a 3rd person"-strategy is really intelligent
Any conversation that needs to be handled like a snake wrapped around a car-bomb is not a conversation I need to waste my time with.
They let you think, you've persuaded them . But for them their ultimate goal and satisfaction is always in mind first and foremost.
I want to try one of these techniques. Not the disingenuous one though. My cousin who has been giving me the silent treatment for over a year because I asked her not to misquote me in front of the other relatives, there ARE things I admire about her despite the fact that she's a raging narcissist. Like she has a phd which I admire, she went on holiday on her own which I admire (the bravery). I don't want to be her friend because my friends have more self-awareness and take responsibility for their emotions but I do want harmony, kindness and inclusion in our extended family. Maybe if I opened up a conversation with a list of what I admired about her, and then simply said ''let's start again'', she'd just take the lightening rod of her anger from me and pass it to some other person, the janitor :-p
Asking narcs for advice works well - but then you have to listen to them pontificate on and on. 😏The other tactics would work too but I could never pull them off without sounding sarcastic. I’d be busted in no time flat. Oh, That’s right. It can’t be done with a spouse. If you married one i guess you’re SOL.
A great way to pass the time during their long drones is to look at them as the only time they are telling the truth. All advice is advice to yourself :P
Alternatively, as Dr. Ramani says, look around the room and make fun narratives about it. That’s about all I got.
Excellent video and analogy, Doctor. Thanks for sharing 👍
I went to therapy with the concern that I have NPD after years of gaslighting and abuse from my primary family and first husband. I told my therapist about my fears and in stead of diagnosing me he took my words at face value and treated me as if I really was a narcissist. It was humiliating and incorrect, but everything I said to object to this treatment, the one that’s portrayed in this video, was dismissed and turned around to verify his approach. I think he was a narc and I think previous mental health patients like himself shouldn’t be allowed to become professionals.
No, mental illness isn’t a thing to bond over and yes stigma is helpful. Helpful for people to be able to live a healthy and happy lives, to love and have problem free family lives by avoiding these malicious retards who have no morals or changing and by the time one tries to help or influence them they have already engulfed them in their web of abuse and intrigues. A good person must avoid bad company as our characters are corruptible
These videos help me to deal with a sibling that seems to have vulnerable narcissist traits and whom has kids. I can’t disengage because other people i love are stuck. I feel like a human shield for my mom and nephews at times. I have started to have my mom listen with me and it has lightened her heart to have gained some insight and tools. Knowledge is power. Thank you
Oh boy, did I find out about the hyper-sensitivity.
Very interesting talk. I usually waste too much time appealing to evidence, fairness, or established social norms, while people try to bully me with "You're either for me or against me!" type amateur dramatics.
I think that, when negotiating with schizophrenics, (which runs in my family,) I've always been very happy to use this kind of Dale Carnegie type diplomacy, or indeed artful lying and the results were generally pretty elegant, or at least, if it was done with a good heart, revelations of my lying were understood as being done in good faith.
But I've dealt with, or occasionally deal with BPD, narcisist, histrionic types and I notice an instinctive, "Oh fuck off" reaction kicking in. As I stand back and look at it, I think that from long experience of the stress of having to pander to bullies, crybabies and idiots, a lot of my major life choices weren't based on the desire for money or power, but precisely making sure that I wasn't required to agree with disagreeable people.
Machiavelli (forgive me if I Machiaveliate,) mentions that the difference between 'the nobles' and ordinary people is that noblemen want to rule, whereas ordinary people merely desire the freedom to avoid being ruled badly and that puts me firmly in the second catergory. But it's actually really major, because if anyone in my direct environment became really unreasonable, I could literally move house, move job or move country in about a month so, without having to wave a gun around or command authority, my freedom to say 'No' is pretty substantial.
I had a Japanese manager of an English school giving me rather unreasonable criticism about my English teaching and when it reached a certain pitch, I just said, "Don't worry. Find another teacher, I found another job in Helsinki" and suddenly he was kissing my ass instead of me kissing his. As things sit, I have several part time jobs and I could walk out of any one of them without major consequence.
This kind of freedom is costly. I didn't marry, have kids, make major investments in a house or get locked into a profession where I'm stuck and I think it was all because my earlier experiences of being locked in and then someone lording it over me were so unpleasant.
I can totally relate to what you are telling us. This is pretty much me. Thank you for sharing this!
This made so many behaviors make sense. I have been just dumbfounded about his disdain of me helping my 16 year old with homework. He hates when I even mention it. He refuses to acknowledge that our son struggles in school and refused to pay for an evaluation even after seeing all the extra time and work it takes. The last 6 weeks I was afraid to even mention school or homework to my son.
About three years ago, I realized I had two highly narcissistic people operating in my life; and, painfully disillusioned, I went the "no-contact" route and have been able to maintain that approach, because they were people with whom I was not forced by circumstance to continue to see or know.
I think a person with a very high degree of narcissism could try the patience of a saint, and maybe even turn that saint into a sinner; and I've wondered how much empathy and thought and energy any one, well-intentioned person should be expected to expend in the struggle to communicate in a satisfying way with a narcissist. For me, it's still an open question, and my ideas about the problem are still evolving, with the aid of discussions like this.
I think it's possible to communicate with a narcissist, but the prospect is a challenge I'm still not ready to accept.
(Having done plenty of driving for a living, I'm amused by your "no-left-turn" analogy. I'd never thought of that one, and the automobile has been an important metaphor in my life, as it has for so many Americans, for good and ill.)
Edit and addenda:
With this and any problem, much depends on the scope, the depth and breadth, of one's intentions, involvement, and commitment--for example, your commitment is far more serious than the average person's. But narcissism has been described as an "epidemic," in the world and especially in America (see Sam Vaknin, a longtime UA-cam contributor on the subject), so I suppose we all have to learn more about this problem, in "Other People" and in ourselves.
@Ben Hackett
One of mine was family, too; a sibling who had been "gaming" me all of my life. The problem is very complex, both unique and similar from one case to another.
By the way, "lucky" was the last thing I felt.
Effective communication with a narc is sneaking up on them in a dark alley with a baseball bat. Pre-emptive eye for an eye. But I should not say such things. Effective communicators are their enemies. A change in organisation in a company forced me to work with one that I had already identified. I was like: let's apply a charm offensive. Well... That was not appreciated. Effective communicators are their enemies because they cannot possibly come up with a holistic scope and response. The condition borders on aphasia. Words do not have meaning and place. They are button-pushers. There are no rules of engagement. Run. Or gaslight the crap out of them, if you can stomach it. If you can resolve one problem with them, then ten are waiting to bite you in the buttocks. Including that one. Nothing gets resolved, in the end.
This sounds like what i have gone trough with one of my brothers. For the past few years i have fantasies of sneaking up on him in an alley and beat him up badly, the few conversations we've had i would say fit the description of him just saying whatever he thinks your buttons are he wants to push, after i went agressive to him i went no-contact, he started to read and perceive me like its highly important, he and his wife, and feeding on it... or it's me? Maybe i'm wrong? He is my older brother and he would get things i didn't, a room for himself, attention from girls, and people would often know me as his younger brother. Is he, am i, or are we both narcissistic?
@@MrNickdino A relation with a narcissist is a yin-yang of disdain. My psychologist didn't get that. I don't know who's the narcissist in your description. But you're the one who's doing the observation. Do you think your brother is capable of that? Your violent reaction is called: problem solving. I think it's important to acknowledge that we can have these thoughts. It's taboo. But very real. The narcissist is violent. Their attitude is a veiled death threat. When we draw that line a little further, along the experiences. The narc communicates: you are nothing. They are unreliable like a wasp. Difficult to follow and circling around you. One wrong move and they will sting. And this puts a decent human being on edge. It's righteous anger against a thousand stings. But it's difficult to point that out. You are probably traumatised. This has the form of trying to formulate a reasonable complaint. But your thoughts are fragmented and firing rapidly. This is also problem solving. But the pieces don't fit. It's contradictory and a paradox. Because the narcissist is a paradox. A monster-child. The narcissist sets up contradictions. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. These contradictions emerge from the faulty logic, many typical logical fallacies, which keeps building. The narcissist confronts you aggressively with a huge problem. The healthy thinker reacts by sorting it out. But you'll end with a burn out. Because it's all bs. We can't resort to violence. Isn't that what the narc wants? They would take a hit to stab you to death, with an insane laughter. Imagine what would happen if we didn't live in civilisation. We'd be burning down villages. The solution is to break contact. We don't have to live with them. EMDR is a good therapy to unwind your trauma. That tight knot of thoughts makes frustrated and aggressive. I hope this helps. The aggression you feel is problem solving. But you can solve it differently.
@@MrNickdino That is what they need, solving their problem is the way they torcher others. They create problems for you to solve. They actually don't have any problems.
I have an idea is that if someone sees themselves as having a high IQ but doesn’t- isn’t going to change their football type behaviors. You (meaning the victim) are going to need to be stronger in helping yourself think through it. I would NEVER try to help a narcissist change. It’s the one time I wouldn’t use a doggie doo doo bag; step around them. Don’t try to elevate a violent man or woman. Or small community of people who have proven their leadership uses violence and bullying against members of their community,
You did say in the beginning of the video that these don't really apply to when you are in a romantic relationship with someone narcissistic. I believe it would be interesting if you could do a video on what could be tried when your partner has narcissistic tendencies, and what change if any can be expected. Also, really liked the video :D
Me and my ex husband was in counseling 3 weeks after marriage. Two years of me going to counseling after that trying to learn to be a" good wife ". Finally when he said he wants divorce my counselor said he tried to twist me into a pretzel and theres no way to twist anymore. Picture gumby in a million knots.
I think most people display these tendencies to a certain degree, I would say that in my case these methods are quite effective.
@@HeatherDMorris And NARCS love to go to therapy....They can play most therapists like fiddles.
These are good ideas but they imply that the narcissist gives you a chance to talk. The one I know right now talks 90 miles an hour, interrupts constantly, and rarely gives me a chance to say anything. Fortunately I am distancing myself.
As behavior modification in a professional setting, I'd say go for it. Even in a group living situation, reshape the narcissist's behavior and effects on others for the benefit of the group. But if the narcissist is the one in power, then responses have to get more creative, or one of her/his confidant's or "dressers" need to provide counsel. Still, they're not likely to change at a core level; after all, there is no core.
Its wild how much work it is to reason with a narcissist while maintaining personal integrity
Eight years after my father died I found a teaching job at a school he’d worked with managing a university project there. Mr. Woodruff, the night custodian, a 70 year old Black man approached me to tell me my father was “the nicest man”. It told how me a successful person garners the respect of others. You give it first and you are genuine. That’s my pops, still teaching me even now, fifty-five years later.
I REALLY enjoy your videos! I’m so glad I stumbled on your videos. Thank you ☺️
Brilliant! Manipulating them! I love this idea. 🌹 Thank you, doctor.
Elisa Mastromarino - I love the word persuasion. I once indirectly persuaded a vulnerable narcissist co-worker to gain 30 pounds by letting her choose how we divided the work. I think her husband divorced her, but I kept my job. (I didn’t really persuade her to get fat, but she chose the desk work in a really bullying way. So I persuaded her to keep it.)
Soooo ? How did it turn out ? 😂🤣
a woman who is in favor of manipulating someone, shocker...
By the way, you provide quality sources of information that the popular TV show could never hold up a candle to.
Great vid, I've dealt with a lot of narcissists and have tried to continue relationships even through lots of bumps with them. It's cool to see that these were the same tactics I've tried to use, to some success. You are definitely spot on. But like you said it is challenging and I'm close to ending relationships with them. Nonetheless, thank you for the work you put into these videos. I think it is a great asset to the world.
How to reason with a narcissist: don't speak to them. Ever.
what if they're your parents on a teacher in your school. You can't use that advice
@Ben Hackett I totally agree 👍👍👍 I could spend that energy on ppl that are worthy of attention instead of ppl trying to take a short cut through life by avoiding really.
Hermlock Gnomes YES!!!
Most people are like that. We need to learn to create strict boundaries.
@@daveyork0 Haha! Truer words were never written! 🤣😆😂
I had one like that... civil to the professionals and rude to the janitors. But general ignoring janitors was a problem. I told him it wouldn't be tolerated. He didn't alter his behavior. So I fired him. Worked perfectly -none of my staff was ever rude to the janitors after that!
Dr. Grande, thank you for this video. You've provided me insight on how to effective communication with my ex (almost) boyfriend who I believe is narcissistic (a vulnerable narcissist) and how he may have perceived my previous communication.
Thank you Dr. Grande for this video. It helped me to assess and/or avoid certain personality traits before I enter into a new relationship.
Wow. This is a really important skill to develop. I hope I can successfully intigrate this into the way that I deal with powerful people.
This also can have a bit of a double whammy effect because it can make you look powerful and secure while you do it, and therefore be perceived as more valuable to the narcissist. Really shows the importance of having a handle on your own emotions.
I really enjoy your videos. On this one, I agree with you that the people you're trying to change will often catch on to what you're doing. But I think the strategies you give are useful in working with children. They won't realize they're being manipulated as often, and will have the satisfaction of thinking they've solved the problem themselves.
Thank you for these suggestions. Dealing with a Narcissistic is draining. I use the positive approach with 2 people in my family and although the conversation is smooth but nothing changes. I know I’m this is part of the disorder but they have absolutely no insight into the pain they caused others.... would you consider doing videos on how to clinically work with someone with personality disorders. Your videos are so helpful. Your balanced, professional approach is evident. Thank you.
A third way the first method might not work is they might not draw the parallel to their own behavior. I've noticed with narcissists in my life, they rarely self reflect on their own behavior.
I think that a vulnerable narcissist feels inferior and he/she has an unconcious insight about that internal inferiority; this is why he/ she wants the others to be down and always down because he/she has a kind of deep feeling of failure in "moving up" to "be able to compete against the others" and this makes him/her feels insecure and "ready" to be offensive when he/ she is criticized..
lol watching this video reminds me why I moved away from middle management as a career.
You tend to get abused from both ends.
That is what they need, solving their problems is the way they torcher others. They create problems for you to solve. They actually don't have any problems.
Thank you for this video. I found it useful in that it clarified why ordinary communication would not be effective, and while providing options, honoured the possibility that these might also not be effective. It does provide some ideas to try for those times we can't just leave a situation.
As a sort of a layperson ( ex-nurse who worked in psychiatric hospitals in the past) I wonder about the sort of thought processes and communication styles that people with personality disorders use which stand out. I don't know if I'm conveying this well, but, for example, a woman I know who comes across as being very narcissistic uses verbal techniques which are quite distinctive.
One is to disagree with what has been said by feeding back a changed version of what the previous speaker has just said - that change being one which lowers the quality of the previous speaker's communication, alters few words but radically changes meaning - then she assumes the most extreme negative possible manifestation of the altered meaning and argues that that is what makes the previous speaker wrong. I have thought of it as being an expert at making other people wrong, or a hypnotic confusion technique.
I attended an event with this woman and her extended family and noticed that it's a usual communication technique that they use with each other. The outcome is that no-one hears what the previous speaker actually said and, to my way of thinking, they all talk nonsense.
I found though that her communication styles (more than this one) had a very hypnotic effect and that it was very difficult for me over time to retain memory for detail of any of the content, and my self perception was affected over time. It was kind of like being psychologically punch-drunk.
Are there any known links between common communication styles and hypnotic techniques? I know we refer to people as manipulating, but I wonder about the techniques themselves.
Once again, I've been enjoying your videos because you provide the information without going for the viewers' emotions, and while maintaining a respectful and empathic position for anyone affected by mental health issues.
Great advice , perfect explanation . Every situation is different and unique . I have found minimal contact , and being indifferent to the narc works for myself. Changing their pattern or attitude can be very tricky you have to be prepared for it backfiring on you.
Have to keep narcissists at a distance and not be afraid to put them in their place using what would normally be harsh measures even though you would rather not go there. The alternative is them taking your dignity and self-respect as they fuck up your whole life. One thing that is effective since narcissists like to gaslight and destroy reputations is to record them and then their abuse can be exposed. Otherwise they will tell lies about you and people will think you are the problem not them.
Very interesting video. Thank you Dr. Grande. I agree, that this is difficult and it really depends on how pathological or not a narcissist is in trying to use these technics.
It's kind of late here now,, but I will certainly watch this video tomorrow again. Have a nice evening doc 😃
Thank you :) Have a good night -
I'm grateful for my therapist, guy played me like a fiddle.
"I have a special kind of therapy for special people like you."
"Oh? Special?... Yeah, ok."
Thank you for your advice, I will try it out, and keep my fingers crossed.
The positive feedback strategy sounds like narcissism in reverse - projecting good behavior onto them in hopes they’ll adopt it through projective identification.
This was useful and helpful and validating. I've used both positive and negative methods.
Brilliant, Dr Grande. Thank you so very much 😊🙌🍀💕
I really love your whole channel
Thanks for your work
And the second one won't last with the narc. For they love to inflict pain on to others. They'll just make up a story to make you think they're nice to the janitor
Yeah, he'll say he bought the janitor a Maserati. Vroom!
Thank you. I needed to hear this. Not for myself but someone who may be suffering from this (undiagnosed). I'm trying to get them help.
I like the third person approach. I've found it very helpful and effective when dealing with family members I love but without going no contact. Sharing the knowledge I'm experiencing from my pursuit of understanding and healing ( from these very people) is a way to use examples that can make a connection, whether real or imagined and to set boundaries by default. It makes them aware that certain behaviors are being identified without pointing a lethal finger at them. Knowing within MY self what MY goals are for MY mental well being and staying focused on self is paramount!
Wait, you can actually reason with a narcissist? 🤔
Oh ya
If you are willing to kiss ass
And be a human doormat
@@graceandfaith869 That is not necessary. As long as you have Strict boundaries you can handle them. Donald Trump has learned to deal with those people he talked about that. He knows how people are and he has very strict boundaries. That is the only way to meander through life.
Is there a workplace that has no narcissists? I don’t think I just chose the wrong profession.
Yes, you can reason with a Narcissist, like a Nail "reasons" with a Hammer!
At this particular moment in my life, this video speaks volumes to me. Thank you for more increadably educational content. ✌
You are quite welcome!
Great topic, my wife has NPD, which I had no idea she had to many years later. I always thought she was just very opinionated and honest. Later I discovered that she does this because she feels her opinion is much more valuable than other's. A very curious thing I've discovered is this disorder has a major relationship to biology. I've always thought it was mostly do to nurture instead of nature, but her entire family suffers from mental health issues with serious psychopathy traits. There are a ton of siblings that helped determine this view. She is the last of 12 children in her family, which is another very strange thing because she and her family, which are Jewish were born and raised in Los Angeles, which again is another uncommon thing. My experience is that there are moments that she is capable of learning new things. She is most interested in learning when it comes to job advancement and not at home in her personal life. Thanks again I great a ton of entertainment from your videos. Keep them coming. 👍
You are quite welcome :)
That seems sexist to me. Being opinionated doesn't make someone personality disordered.
@@FleurPillager Why is it sexist? He is just explaining his wife's personality and her diagnosed condition. You are the one who is sexist by making such a claim as if women can't be criticized.
@@GrumpSkull Because "opinionated'" isn't a criteria for being diagnosed with a personality disorder?
@@FleurPillager Saying someone is 'opinionated' is not criteria for being sexist.
His first statement is 'my wife has NPD'. On that statement, I would think this has been diagnosed by a professional.
I've been looking for a content about narcissism in a different perspective. Something that gives an option of not walking away from them. They are humans and we can't just leave them especially if they are family. YOU ARE AMAZING Dr. GRANDE!
Oh well, I got my hopes up for nothing. Thanks Anyway for trying. Love your videos. they’re like no other on the Internet, and I really appreciate you. Will continue to watch.
My situation that I observe is the valuable narcissist puts down everyone and refuses to see it. if he does give a compliment it's to say one person is better than the one that he wants to hurt. When you say you just put me down he will say what do you mean.
Dear Todd, Thank you for the effort of making these videos, I feel that you really care about your work, and have a strong desire for the betterment of people’s mental health. I am in a different line of work, being an artist, however I try in some small way to also contribute to people. Kindest regards from Australia. Kalman.
You are most welcome :)
Thanks for the reply, I also sent a short message via FB. Kindest regards, Kalman.@@DrGrande
Your advice is always so helpful, and appreciated.
Hey Todd! I love your content a lot and its been very useful to me (constructive criticism incoming). And I would like it even more if you uploaded the mp3 files to a podcasting platform like spotify, stitcher, itunes etc. so I can educate myself at work -- plus, you could probably make extra money off of it. I don't always have the time after work to sit down and listen to a 16 minute video (the length is perfect and necessary to flesh out the information, but it's very hard for me to find the time).
I'm positive alot us would be interested in this. Again, huge fan Todd, keep it up
@C M That's also a good idea! But again, it would be kind of nice to see all in one place without having to switch from UA-cam to my MP3 player etc. Plus, this way Todd could branch out and do long-form interviews and all that. Seems like that would be an intelligent move for him entrepreneurially
I downloaded an app that allows me to play UA-cam in the background. The App Store has many options - you should check it out!
You could start a soundcloud station then upload and stream the audio from there. I think it’s free and it’s a nice platform musicians and DJ’s use it but ive heard speakers use it as well. I use it everyday some people share music they upload.
Thanks Dr. Grande!
Very great information, as I have to associate with narcissism, or the strong traits, with many people in my life.
Thank you...🙏🤗yes interesting...it still can be challenging with narcissists...
This is my family. Hypersensitivity to the tiniest bit of feedback. Like ''please don't call me paranoid''. ''Don't misrepresent me''. Good insight that they don't quiiiite buy in to their self-deception.
So if somebody gives you the silent treatment for a year (so far) because you asked them not to misrepresent your views, then that would be a vulnerable narcissist? this person is so extravert and dominates all conversations.
I've tried that with all narcs. Never works with your first example. They agree with you when they see other narcs doing evil things, and continue to still do the evil things... After they just finished agreeing it was wrong.. Nothing works, except beating them at their own game.
Excellent advice as always. I'd just like to add another strategy. I've found that if I say something as brutal and cruel as the things she says all the time, she suddenly becomes friendly and amenable. Of course nobody should treat anyone that way but I have found that if you hit back just as hard they will see you as an equal, at least for a while, and during that window, progress can be made.
Your videos are a true treasure. You speak so well it's a pleasure to listen to you. Ear candy. Are you familiar with the novels by David Foster Wallace? I am currently reading The Pale King and the character Leonard Stecyk is immediately resonating with me and my life. I asked Teal Swan and her group on Facebook what they think about this phenomenon of people often bullying those who are very loving, happy and giving. Nobody was able to answer my question matter of fact some reacted a bit offstandish as if my question has evoked some sort of land mine in them. Ha. In chat rooms which I have studied first hand I see this happening as an ongoing theme. Most are bullies who will bully the person who is kind and loving in particular when that person does not defend himself or herself. They bully those who they think are weak and defenseless. This is such a common phenomenon that I think it's the vast majority of humans who will bully a person they think is weak and defenseless. In David Foster Wallace's book the kids in the school get triggered really badly by Leonard Stecyk who is always really nice and fair to everybody. He writes that most students and also the teachers will have to take Aspirin in order to cope with the pain that they feel which Leonard Stecyk causes them. My question at Teal Swan's group was why is that. Why do people (I have observed this myself) feel pain when encountering a very caring and kind person? I get asked by many people on the Internet "so you think you are better than anyone else?" just because I speak out in regards to animal rights. What is it about the kindness and caring that triggers people so badly? Sorry about my many and lengthy comments. Ignore them if you have no time to read all of this haha. I just get excited when I finally find someone who cares and gets into psychology this is very rare.
My Husband a Covert Narc told me he had Shame & Guilt plus, that his Mother abused him & that he is messed up. He admitted to abusing me for years. I’m assuming this is rare because most people on the u-tube videos tell you a Covert Narc will never come clean & be honest with you.
Very interesting video! I don’t know a lot about narcissism but am learning through you, Dr Grande. Maybe because of not knowing enough about anyone with NPD or the traits, I’d be worried about becoming a manipulative personality. Just thinking to myself how much negative or positive (I preferred the positive method) mind manipulation it would take before it would affect one’s own personality. lol I’m out of my league, but I’m grateful for all you teach us. I hope your day is sunny ☀️☺️
@Serene Artist: Good point