Big Twitter Drama
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- Опубліковано 4 бер 2023
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This Video Took 19 Takes
#mogulmail #ludwig #corridor
Mogul Mail claiming to not like art theft while committing identity theft against Ludwig is craazzyy
Nah Ludwig copies mogul
@Darktion oh now they're starting to name the links?
Mogul killed off lud a while back
I'm sry to say this but they are the same person rn
@@ignatoseg4664 who’s lud??
Mogul Mail es just an advance AI Ludwig
These AI debates are going to get more and more frequent
@Darktion I get that this is a bot and just trying to get people to click their scam link but like this the worst bait ever
Of course there are going to be a lot of debates about this, this is new technology and like all new technology there’s gonna be a lot of concerns on how they are utilized in the world of entertainment.🐱
Its funny because none of these art gatekeepers could have gotten the same result themselves
yeah next it's gonna be with driving and then with IT then with accounting then with probably everything eventually
It’s never not going to be an issue until they stop trying to automate creativity.
Ludwig calling a clickbait title pretentious is peak pot on kettle violence.
I think the difference is that they genuinely believe it, so it's not really clickbait
@@elessar6950 the title was a question not a statement
@@elessar6950 no, they just need views, they don’t believe it.
Whos ludwig
There's a difference between making a clickbait title and offending an entire industry lmao still funny tho
i feel like niko is just the kinda guy that is so interested in the filming process that he just doesn’t realize when it sounds pretentious. i also feel like their thoughts generally fall in line with joel’s, except joel found a much better way to say what they were trying to say
Yeah they just didnt say it in a way that sounds pleasing to hear but they are good dudes over there i doubt they had the intention to "steal" anything like ludwig is saying.
Yeah in the video niko says that he's always wanted to create an anime. But has never been able to.
@@blekutt I think it's also important to note the amount of time and energy they put into this, they put months of work into this creation, and sure the title was much, but they did do something pretty neat, and made it open source delving into, and explaining the whole process and how to do it. Not only that, but also made a step by step guide behind a $3 paywall. So like yeah, this could have done better, but i also think that they put a lot of consideration into the creation and the responsibilities that come with putting something like this out there. I also can see the side that this is stealing art, because in many ways it is. I just am unsure of where we should draw the lines of stealing art and using art as inspiration. It's seemingly a line that is only drawable on a case by case lens.
Exactly, I agree with this so much. Their intention was to inspire people to do something similar and start a conversation. I feel like Ludwig has become part of the mass that is afraid of losing a job cuz they found a more efficient way to do this. Could they hire an animator and just not use existing art as reference, yes. But this was a demonstration of how it could work. Everyone is crying over losing jobs and steeling art, when companies could just hire some freelance artist to draw some frames and feed it to the ai. This way existing art won’t be stollen and no one will cry like bitches.
@Draco eh, I cant say I totally agree. There is a major need for the industry to fuel animators, and AI stealing art is a real concern. Like I said there's a line to be toed i just dont know where it should be drawn.
You know, it kinda says a lot about how fucked up the system is where a tool that could potentially be used to help artists massively becomes an existential problem because the people who finance art only see it as commodities that can be replaced by derivative AI
This.
Corporate greed knows no bounds
Cannot agree more
All art is derivative. The ai is no different
Right? Like I get the point that it rips from different works, but the existence of the AI doesn't take away from the artist's love of art. A tool like AI doesn't stop artists from creating. Its existence really only creates new artists who can now use a different, more accessible medium.
It's so weird that Mogul Mail got his car stolen right at the same time as Ludwig
whos ludwig
never seen both of them in the same room at the same time
@@Dsarii I have
@@Charduza prove it
I have been following Corridor for about 6 years now, I have to say from their perspective all the things they said made sense. They worked really hard on it constantly breaking new grounds with Ai for months. Then the spider-verse video was released which was the catalyst for the Anime video. Took them 2 months to make the 7 minute anime video. They also stated they will be creating their own art to feed the Ai and that the anime video was a test run to see if they can achieve it, which nobody is mentioning for some reason.
this!!! they literally bring up that they trained the ai on themselves, not other random people. they made their own model for this project alone.
@@ItsJessEdits they "made" the model, but the images were still from the original anime, they train the diffusion model to understand NIko's face but the art stile was just frames from the anime
@@FalconLight and anime (and any other art style) draws inspiration from art that came before it. Every classically trained artist learns by studying others. Im not saying copying something outright is okay at all - but I think we shouldn't pretend either that these artists who are known by a certain form of art, didn't learn by trying to watch/study/recreate works of the artists before them too.
And another big difference is that the people at Corridor work really hard to find a new unique approach to share with people, to empower others. They're also really dedicated creators themselves. This isn't a case of a single person online spending 5 minutes in an AI generator to copy someone famous. This is a team of people spending 2 months straight to learn how to make their own way of creating a form of art they personally love, while also showing others how they could do the same.
They even have a video on AI and laws etc (Jake). Don't understand why there is so much backlash when its still legal / opensource
Also gotta say, Anime is a very derivative genre. Sure there is innovation and personal touches but generally speaking there is tons of imitation and copying of each other. You could point to substyles but within those styles artists often copy things completely and shamelessly. Eyes, hands, expressions, shots, storylines, and story tropes, anime is littered with imitation already. Its to the point theres almost rules and it feels wrong when they don't follow them. I've heard this very criticism of shows that seem too Disney or something. Imitation is flatter and acknowledgement. How many times have you seen the Dragonball fist clinched power up shot? and its rad every time! Some of the best shows have grown out of this processes of imitation. Its part of the creative process and we'd never get the best stuff without it.
I don’t think the corridor guys meant for it to sound pretentious and their appreciation for filming techniques and cutting edge tech lead them to what they made. I think they’re comment on “changing animation forever” was tongue and cheek / used to get a lot of views, which is good for them.
@@that1guy307 Because they are right. You have no idea who these guys are.
@@DailyShit. nft shill??
Also they did change animation forever. Not every single animation, no of course not. But the animation industry will start doing this in some cases.
They always sound pretentious with tech stuff. They did it with NFTs too. It gets clicks.
No, they straigh up used a smug and path setter idea of themself, they act as if they are changing the entirety of the industry by using a instagram filter on steroids; they did this in purpose and it sucks ass
I think a lot of Corridor seeming cocky is just them being excited as filmmakers who've gained the tools to do things they haven't been able to do before (regardless of whether they did so in a responsible way)
100%. Flaming Corridor for a single mistake means people are ignoring the rest of their channel. They're the only channel to do Reaction content ethically in my opinion, since they actually bring something to the table with their insight, and don't show the entire content as to not be a substitute. They clearly care about what they do from a technical stand point, and people's takes being positive or negative is really telling whether or not they have watched another video from them (and if they haven't, they're just jumping on the hate train. Go twitter I guess).
I agree. Corridor is my fav channel and I can confirm theyre a bunch of nice nerds that are passionate in experimenting in the film world. They just made a sick video and wanted to share it with everyone. They don't deserve all the negativity they're getting.
@@AtomixKingg their reactions are some times kinda out there. I remember watching one where the stuff they were explaining was blatantly false
I mean Corridor has made their name with over the top, goofy but high quality stuff, including their live content. It's their style, and it helps with the views.
@@angryfishy8183 can you be more specific out of curiosity
i love the way joel says "we should be able to feel good while making art." what a great message.
Bro check out any of his videos where he just sits down and talks to the camera... He's just a Good fucking person and he genuinely wants everyone to enjoy making art. And he can be so motivational
@@mightymeatymech the amount of effort that actually goes into it is insane, to say it isn’t “actual art” is just plain stupid and it’s ignoring people like Joel and his work
And knowing these ai will take over just discouraged millions of artist, especially those who has potential, its kinda sad
@@zoinksscoob6523 kinda?
@@zoinksscoob6523 It really does suck and to see people defending it is absolutely crazy. hopefully action is taken against ai art in the near future so that more artists can feel safe in their professions, or at least make the use of ai a tool for artists to use, instead of something that removes them from their jobs entirely.
Joel Haver doing the animation part himself is the line imo, as long as the animation for the ai is sourced ethically I think it's ok. For instance, hiring an artist that KNOWS they are animating for ai rotoscoping, but at that point the artist should get royalties instead of single commissions. This will start being abused by corporations soon though so I'll only support creators themselves.
The things is though, Corridor crew used Vampire Hunter not JUST because of the style, but BECAUSE it was available for free on youtube. I bet NONE of the people who watched the youtube Vampire Hunter video ever paid or donated a penny to the studio. They just enjoyed it for free like everyone else then went on their soapboxes about stealing.
@@christopherwilliams242 Just because it was available for free on UA-cam, that doesn't make the work theirs. The artwork belongs to the original artists, they just took it and used it for their own "animation". While it's true that the work is technically not "stolen" due to it being freely available, we should watch out for people in the future who try to pass out the work of others as their own.
And watching something for free isn't stealing, you're not claiming it as your own nor are you using it to make your own thing - you're just watching it.
@@querccias2402 But it also wouldn't be stealing if you are using it to make your own thing. If it's transformative enough and deviates enough from the source material, it can and SHOULD get away with it. And that's pretty much what they did.
-Zero of the assets from Vampire Hunter D was actually used for the footage, the model literally just learns how to make a style look the way it does through a data set, and you can't copyright an art style.
-The final product still looks NOTHING like Vampire Hunter D. If they didn't tell us that it came from that movie (which they didn't have to btw), we would have NO IDEA that it was based off of it.
That second point is especially important, because it tells us that the final product is transformative enough that it still fits well within the confines of fair use.
@@gracecalis5421 Not to mention the Vampire Hunter guys are probably making an assload off of the hype and buzz this has caused... so much ad revenue from the boost in views I'd imagine.
For the record, Joel Haver doesn't use ai for his animations, Ludwig just didn't understand his process. It looks like style transfer because he's essentially modulating the line art by the changes in the video. But both the line art and the video were created by Joel and there were no neural networks involved.
I've been watching corridor for years. They hire really creative people and usually offer good perspective into the industry. They're not really the usual AI tech bros because they actually are in the industry and contribute with their own art and inspire a lot of people.
That being said, Corridor isn't the issue here. There needs to be some sort of system in place for AI software that like, asks permission from the original artist, requires their consent, or otherwise credits them in a way that can't just be edited out.
No no, AI users will never support that, because they say AI learns like a person so it should have the freedom to view any images like a person. But then they call it "just a tool" that won't replace human art. But when you point out that it's a tool that was made with products that the programmer doesn't own, they say style can't be copyrighted and their tool as the same freedom as a person to learn. The only thing they want is whatever they'll need to keep doing what they're doing without taking any criticism.
the corridor crew went full into the NFT fiasco when that was a thing; they are crypto chumps and they have no care for animation and other kind of art atm
the problem with AI is that it's an invention that is now impossible to get rid off.
now that the field of generative AI is a thing , nobody can put restrictions on it because they can't be applied to every AI .
for exemple : if all big AI companies decide to make a credit system ,this will only stop the surface level amateurs having fun.
the real "thief" making money will turn to a less ethical company or source their own AI (AI are just bits of code that can be recreated at anytime).
the only thing that can really change things are actions from the gouvernement officially making AI creations without credit illegal .
but this will probably be very slow and will not work if only local (the only way for things to globally disappear on the internet is for everybody (all countries ,...) to strongly ban it).
but it is highly unlikely that generative AI will be restricted and these restrictions will be enforced as strongly as other internet crimes .So basically ,like always on the Internet , AI content is here to stay and may even be omnipresent if the technology becomes indistinguishable from real content. .
With the release of the second one, all it will add to is those who don't ACTUALLY contribute any effort to it like Corridor did will now use them as an excuse to keep doing what they're doing. Their own approach is better but they did not address any of the larger issues in the slightest.
@@okaybutwhythough7456 actually on their second channel, corridor crew they show how they went about creating the style for the second episode, they found an artist that they liked and commissioned about 2-3 sketchbook worths of character sheets and they compensated him fairly, they then trained the ai on those images that they payed for from the credited artist, they then filmed themselves as they did before but again this time they did it the more humane way, they also talk a lot about the ethics of ai art and there opinion has really shifted since then I recommend watching both the ep2 and the behind the scenes.
I think why AI is such a huge debate often boils down to artists in many different creative fields are underpaid, understaffed, and constantly put in worse and worse positions. (Contracts with no healthcare, outsourcing, companies working together keep pay low/no poaching, ect.) and AI presents more problems than help to artists. I think a lot of artists I know think AI has cool aspects/benefits, but it’s got a lot of bad ethics and outcomes too. If artists held more value in consumers/companies eyes, I don’t think we’d be as worried. But so many large studios already have shady and bad practices for film and animation crews…Idk how to feel about it.
Sounds like a capitalism problem not an AI problem
@@chosenone6158 Yes, and AI will be used as a tool for capitalism so the problem persists I feel like. even if AI could be great for artists it probably won't be used for them but for the leadership.
EXACTLY!
This isn’t a “capitalism” or “AI” problem, this is a YOU problem.
When you allow people to take advantage of you, they do.
People they trade off their spine in order to fulfill their goals, all of these animators wants to get exploited because they don’t have the brain to change direction.
I can’t become the president, I can’t become the worlds greatest chess player, I can’t become an actor and that’s fine.
The point is tho, if you don’t want the world to take advantage of you then don’t let ‘em. Don’t work for companies like these, fucking quit and animate at home.
It’s nothing about society it’s about us as a specie not having a spine. Strikes are there for a reason, but apparently Japanese people are the biggest spine breakers on earth among the Chinese so they won’t do that.
Understandable, then they are just an asset.
Quit crying really it’s pathetic
I feel like people are heated about the AI art stuff, and corridor digital just happened to be the ones that lit the fire. It’s not them specifically, or the anime they made, it’s that they were first - which makes them an obvious target for those who have gripes with the technology.
indeed and it doesn't help that they are actively in the art community too. The most controversial Ai side right now.
Literally, they constantly try new and shiny technologies in their videos, but people just hate ai so they got all the hate for that
@@darthmax4466 it’s more about the stealing, less about the technology. I hate that the art community has to keep repeating itself. That “animated” video would NOT have been possible without the work and efforts of the people who worked on the original animation, which the ai was trained on.
The only people who hates this are shitty ass drawers or drawing gatekeepers
I feel like the people heated about ai art, are the artists worried about losing their jobs and also the up and coming artists fearing that they wont have a career in the upcoming future. Nearly all AI art simply uses and steals copywrited art, without any consent from the artists, so they have every right to be upset. At least when humans draw and use digital art to draw, their is always a sense of humanity and individuality in what they are making, ai art and ai animation just seeks to strip that away entirely. there is definitely a way to turn the use of ai into something that actually benefits the artists doing the drawing, but the approach taken with ai right now is just not the way. Art is supposed to be an expression of a humans imagination, and a humans feeling, stripping that human touch away is just soulless.
When artists have to write a counter program that blocks AI art from stealing their work in searches/learning, then I think it might be a problem.
That is only a thing because it's new tech and there are no rules/laws/regulations for it.
Not gonna happen
@Zero9O this is assuming ai generated stuff wouldn't be protected. It's actually a grey area
Big studios with a huge back catalog dont have shortage of material to feed the ai. They own the rights to it too so.... That really shouldnt be the main focus in my opinion. We absolutely need to have a discussion about AI though, having a laissez faire attitude will definitely bite us back.
It kinda falls on the person using the AI to be honest, cause AI generated stuff just isn't their work no matter what way you look at it. If I buy some burgers from a few restaurants and mush them all into one 'super AI generated burger' it doesn't mean I can go and pass off that burger as my own creation, legally or otherwise. It's just nonsensical.
joel's saving grace is that while yes he used an ai, he was drawing his own stuff. corridor was using sills from anime they did not make themselves to feed their ai. the ai itself is not bad, its only when you use the ai to steal other peoples shit that it then becomes not ok.
I feel like if an artist/studio makes their own artwork and feeds it into an AI to use it as a tool to help art direction then this would be a cool tool but nothing will change the importance of the artist in a production setting. Joel Haver is the perfect example since he is still creating the artwork himself.
Edit: so many ppl have no idea how basic copyright law works lmao
As an artist, I totally agree with this. You own the images, do whatever you want with them. You don't? Don't steal them.
THank you for calling out Joel whos been doing this for years by hand, without the dumb AI these guys needed.
Same as with the corridor crew. If you watch the behind the scenes there is a ton of knowledge and art direction that went into making that. They didn't just film an Iphone movie and then run it through an AI.
You cannot copywrite style. Training something on style is okay. The output is not able to be copywritten or sold. But since Corridor is just UA-cam it's safe. Take screenshots if you want
What if I trained myself to draw like old Disney animations, and then fed my own art into the AI? (IE The Mogul logo, which steals the style anyways)
Lud has better Home Depot drip than us associates do 💀
nah nothing beats our aprons
It’s a nascar jacket so yeah I would imagine 😂
Gotta rock that OG Tony Stewart jacket
This was such a bad take from Ludwig. You couldn't ask for a more ignorant opinion than what Ludwig posted. This is seriously such a fucking stupid take, maybe next time he should spend more than 5 minutes reading a fucking twitter thread to form his opinion. No shit Sherlock, it looks like Vamp Hunt D since that's what they trained the AI on Ludwig. They have literally made a video with Joel before, even Joel agrees that it's a completely different type of animation, and it looks NOTHING like what Joel does, only a smooth brain ignoramus would think that it resembles his videos. The whole point of the Corridor video is that you can pick any animation style which you love and train an AI to honor the original animation to render your video into that specific animation style. Lost respect for Ludwig here.
Who is lud
i've personally been a fan of joel haver for a long time, and i agree with what he said at the end of his tutorial video about how art should be in the hands of everybody, but, as an art student myself, i understand why some people find any ai assisted art to be infuriating. Its because those of us out there who are pursuing art as a career have worked very hard our entire lives to be able to draw and animate the things we want to create, and ai assisted art makes us feel like all of the work we put in to being a skilled artist is invalid and pointless. I love what both Corridor and Joel Haver are doing as youtube channels. Joel is making wonderful improvisational sketch comedy, and the Corridor team is making great creations in the vfx and cgi scene. I feel like all of them are very skilled artists that create amazing works, it's just hard to not be bitter towards ai.
also i think the use of ai in the right situations is fine, the tech is cool, but the image sources need to be ethical and original. also i think corridor showed the quality that ai animation could potentially be and i think that works as a proof of concept for the implementation of more ai interpolation features for creating inbetweens in 2d animation cause currently that tech doesn't work too well. but it could make the lives of overworked animators a lot easier.
also love you logwig 😍
Ah yes, another war in Twitter ☕🗿
Ludwig: "I'm not a weeb, I just watch anime to be in touch with the youth"
Mogul Mail: "Let's talk about this anime controversy"
Trash take
Truly inspiring to see how they are polar opposites. No matter how much Mogul Mail tries to copy Ludwig, he will always fail. Truly a lesson on how you can only be yourself, no matter how much you want to be someone else.
He’s becoming trash taste real quick. Just one Japan trip and he’s Mr.Anime-News now
Why Ludwig acting like he's not a clickbait fiend himself smh
I really recommend to watch Mother's Base video about AI.
He really gotta use some of that money from UA-cam and buy some mirrors, maybe we can start a gofundme for the poor bastard
@@fernandozavaletabustos205 I don't. Dude was way to overly emotional and a lot of his points were half-baked at best.
This is Mogul mail not Ludwig. Ludwig is a whole different person
Wdym this is mogul mail who’s ludwig
I think in moderation, AI can be cool and actually helpful for certain things in art. The problem is tech-bros thinking it can replace real artist when the whole point of making something is the part where you make it
It’s likely in the next century artists will be replaced, eventually the ai will reach a point of singularity
not on my watch
I also doubt it will replace real artists and animators
tbh if ur bad enough to replaced by artist then step up ur game.
If people followed corridor for longer than only that vid they would know they are just trying to optimize and explore the process of ai assisted animation. They explain it step by step to teach people and try to contribute to digital creativity
They have multiple vids where they talk in-depth about the morals and grey area of using ai-art
Dont expect these neanderthals without any understanding of art, vfx or technology to not just spew feces out their holes and call it "an opinion"
Are you suggesting people on Twitter do research? What is wrong with you?!
You aren’t as intelligent as you think you are for siding with theft. Just because they have a platform doesn’t mean they’re informed, you have no idea how the technology works
@@that1guy307 Explain to me how using a anime style in their own creation is theft? If that is the case, cell shading games are all stealing from anime and are all thefts. Dumb fuck logic.
@@AlecWyld this made me laugh audibly 👍
Im so glad you showed Joel Haver. Such an amazing person
Same I was thinking of Joel the whole time I was seeing the clips like "We're doing animation the way no one has before!" I was like uh...it's literally been done for years by Joel lol
@@rintinrina if you think what joel does and this is the same thing, you are beyond regarded
lets go glad to hear joel getting some coverage, hes so passionate and genuine about his craft its super inspiring
plus the way he uses AI isn't stealing any other artists' work!
@@april5054 Joel Haver doesn't use AI, unless I'm mistaken (which I totally could be). If I recall, he uses EBSynth, which works with Example-Based Synthesis instead of AI. It basically sort of uses an image to paint over a series of frames and you gotta draw more images the more the subject moves. There's no AI involved at all from what I remember. I could be wrong and they could have some machine learning involved though.
@@canadianfencer You do know that something doesn’t specifically have to be machine learning to be AI?
I was friends with his brother for a couple years and was watching one of Joel’s old videos and shat myself when I saw his brother in the video. Had no idea they were siblings. Both really interesting people, his brother is quite the character.
@@cookiecrumbzi That was back 10+ years ago when machine learning was considered a subset of AI. Today It's all machine learning
I got no problem if Indie creators use it as a tool, it’s really the corporate studios that will look at this to try to replace their animators.
After having followed Corridor for a long while, I've seen their progress on trying to find ways of incorporating AI into video workflows throughout videos. They've often reflected on and mentioned points like Joel Haver is mentioning in the final section showed, and I think the video Corridor released recently is just an extension on this. I think they posed their new work as optimistically and idealistically as they did, because they finally seemed to have made significant steps in particularly tough challenges that come with creating animation using AI, and in doing so they look ahead towards what that could mean for the creative space. It shouldn't be interpreted as overly proud or vein, its a reflection on the disruptive potential the technology can have in the creative space (just as Joel mentions is necessary) when even further developed in the future. I don't think their video therefore differs in any way with the tone of Joel's points, but as usual people are very quick to jump on a hating bandwagon.
I think most commentary pulls their work presented in this video out of context. Take a look at the history of Corridors work, they are enthusiastic and future-oriented, but also actually very nuanced and realistic in the way they approach film-making and video creation. That sadly gets buried under the "omg look at how they worded these points in this one video" waterfall of opinions.
Also, people seem to ignore the fact that it wasn't easy to make the video. Niko says in the breakdown video that it took I think 3 months to make. That's 3 months for a 7 minute video. Yes the AI is making it so they don't have to animate it themselves but they are doing everything else themselves. They put in a lot of work to make the video and are even sharing it with people. And making something of that caliber takes a deep understanding of how anime is made so it's not like they just made it on a whim. I understand where people are coming from as far as being against it but they are ignoring a lot of things.
As excited as you all are for this AI animation nonsense, I'm not at all on board with any this. Because big cooperations are going to take advantage of this tech and exploit the sh*t out of it instead of paying actual animators with original works. I'm an artist myself and this I hope must never be the future of animation.
Everything that happens on Twitter is drama.
@Darktion SHUT UP OML
You can't have the word Twitter without...
Wait. You can. You literally can. No word in drama is shared with the word Twitter. They're not even related! There's no apple to fall from any metaphorical tree. Twitter's just terrible, like a troll addicted to COD. There's no excuse, Twitter's just garbo.
@Darktion bots making fun of bots making fun of bots
Same with Reddit
then they be using twitter, apple, or other products made in sweatshops and take advantage of people. but as long as its convenient its fine ig
The best thing to come out of this is Joel Havers shoutout. Man deserves the world IMO.
Agreed
Joel and Corridor Digital did a video together on their main channel a couple months ago. A lot more than a shout out.
I love any praise for Joel, what a treasure
Reminds me of the Mr Beast Squid Games drama, where their IRL video based on the Netflix show got a lot of views. People were angry at them for ripping off a successful show that took years of development, but then the creators of the original said they enjoyed the fan content. I don't think they replace each other. When people copy my videos without changing anything, I send in a copyright complaint. When they copy my style but not my footage, I'm more flattered than offended and glad to see people making their own stuff. If people are allowed to be inspired by content to make new things, AI should too
It's art theft, plain and simple, they didn't work for shit
Is it just me or are there a lot of artists that feel so pretentious and are extremely defensive about their craft. And it's not even like a protecting your favorite thing type beat. Other communities are way more chill about what they do and why they do it then artists. It's just cringe people imo.
@@TsdsxSansTSSunStone Artists get annoyed at it because they spent literal years of their life perfecting their styles just for the chance to be able to do the thing they love as a job, and now those years are at risk of getting thrown down the drain because of AI programs that would most likely be able to perfectly mimic their styles in a few years time. Other communities are more chill because they most likely didnt specifically focus years of time into one craft just to have a chance of being able to do it for a living. They are defensive because its a genuine threat to something that in some cases people have spent decades perfecting while dipshits like you ignore that and act like they are getting defensive for no reason. Not even to mention how basically nobody seems to give a shit about the fact that one of these AI art website's owners said "its better to ask for forgiveness than permission" basically saying that "yea we know that we are wrongfully stealing literally millions of works done by artists around the world, but we dont care" which just shows that without any laws being put in place, these people will have literally no respect for the artists that made their program possible, and this isnt even getting into all of the "AI artists" that have flooded onto websites and tried to lie their way into the community, people who can just get an AI drawn version of someones art style instead of needing to commission it from the original artist, and the blatant lack of security that artists now have because these cunts who run the show would rather "ask for forgiveness than permission" just so they can scrape the internet to make more money instead of having an opt in system.
indeed, it definitely isn't a bad thing that all this stuff exists. the ai art generator thing for example is something normal artists already need to do, just.. condensed
the issue though doesn't come from the tool, it comes from the types of people who use these tools. as another comment said, "if people don't riot we will be provided subpar products that will be mass produced with little of the care that goes into most anime". we already have plenty proof of this happening with other products.
i really enjoy the idea of a more creative world, but i don't like the idea of something inhuman being used for it. i far prefer society itself growing / putting more worth into creativity
IDK what other artist's thought processes are on this (i only do it for hobby, not for work), but i don't think it's pretentious for people to fear this stuff
maybe in the future when ai becomes indistinguisible from something sentient, people won't care so much (or at the least, notice lol). but i think people should complain about it while they can. those are my thoughts on the matter anyway
edit: talking about the AI stuff in general, not how it was specifically used in this video. it's used here like a shortcut, same as any other digital tool. i don't think it's evil by itself or some horrific thing that taints whatever it touches lol
@@TsdsxSansTSSunStone dumb comment
Describing time on twitter as served time is incredibly funny to me
It really is prison
So at the end of the day, it's not as bad as being a Twitter user.
Thank you for hearing my Ted Talk.
As a 2d and 3d artist thats majoring in computer science, I'm beyond torn. On one hand I applaud the technological advances we have made and how they can be taken advantage of in the future and as an artist I can see how annoying it is to be directly stolen from with no compensation and every day your art is only going to be easier to replicate for less of a price. Right now as a 3d artist, they haven't made the same advancements as in drawings and such in the AI industry but its only a matter of time till that happens also.
I'm completely biased cause I'm studying to be a programmer, but, this AI "problem" has been coming for more than 10 years, people are focusing on trying to stop it instead of accepting that it's gonna be a problem for multiple jobs
@@flarebear5346 I think accepting it’s going to be a problem is what’s causing them to focus on trying to stop it. For a programmer my Man U have more work to do if you couldn’t figure that out
@@flarebear5346 it's just annoying how is gonna be used to improve the rich's bottom line, and leave society with less and less jobs, but yet the rich will not care for the jobless, so until people start focusing on humanitarian funds, ai will always be hated
The issue is not technological but legal. Have protection regarding who and what can be fed to AI for commercial use and you solve this issue. One thing that will never solve anything is trying to stop it. I will not stop, it will never stop.
This is where being an artist that can create their own style of animation will come into play. Most people will steal drawing styles that already exist to use with this technology but if you can create and draw your own unique drawing style for animations and shows/movies then that is what will set people like you apart from the general public that can get their hands on AI art generation tools and image synthesizers. I am not an artist 2D or 3D and my weapon is the camera as a videographer so this tool is great for me but I also on the other hand as a creative don't want to steal another persons work that they put 10s if not hundreds of hours skillfully crafting by hand. I wouldn't want another person stealing my art that I've created so why would I steal somebody else's.
I think there is definitely some value to be had from AI in the art realm.
We have had a LONG history of artists being ground down to dust (especially in the anime realm) by crazy workloads in crunch periods. Tech like this could be used to fill out easier work and free up human animators and artists to focus on specific scenes that need their higher skilled labor.
Their high skill labor is the animation. At what point do you say that this is the stuff that animators can work on, and where ai can work on it? Eventually ai can and will do a lot of the work, if not all of it. Regardless, this tech, if given the chance to be good enough, will be more cost effective to replace a lot of the jobs that artist would have had, and are willing to do. By stealing the art the animators made. You're being optimistic about it, but at the end of the day some animators job will be taken away, if it is more cost effective to use ai.
Welp I guess this is one of the reasons STEM fields are suggested
@@gellybean3885 ai isn’t able to pick up a pen and draw, so don’t go around scaring people about their jobs being taken away. AI already exist as tools for animators, and has been for a little while now.
@@gellybean3885 There is plenty of work just in filling out frames of animation. So you would use actual artists to do your key frames and high detail still shots and you would use AI to fill out the rest.
I am admittedly being optimistic, but you can throw a rock and hit 500 people who are going "OMG ITS SCARY" so I was just providing a useful counterpoint for people to keep in their minds aswell because ANYTHING can be bad and harmful if taken to an extreme.
The goal should be to see the extreme coming and account for it before it becomes a problem, not avoid doing anything simply because of the POTENTIAL for problems to occur.
@@TheGreatKingChiba I mean the problem has already occurred, and has been used without the consent of the artist involved. They didn't ask any of the artist that they trained the ai art on, which is imo just bad practice. So far a large majority of ai art is trained and using art of unaware artist, without their consent. Ofc, if it was properly regulated and used properly, with an opt in system, that would be amazing, but ai art currently is unethical imo. The technology is amazing don't get me wrong, but it has already been presented in an unethical manor, and unless regulated will continue to do so.
Sorry for framing my first comment wrong, like I'm fine with the technology, but the ethics of it is more important for me.
I think a better way to go about this ai animation would be to contract an animator to create a project for the ai to study. Then give the animator of the study content royalties like an actor. I think it’d also help to put this style into its own category like avatar or Beowulf, not live action but not complete cgi or animation.
Pfft or just use a.i to create a project faster and easier plus cheaper
@@deadboltzz5199 that would look like trash
@@deadboltzz5199
Where does the "a.I" get the training data from in order for it to create a project faster and easier plus cheaper?
I feel like the root of all this drama was the title of the video:”Did we just change animatiom forever”.
Unfortunately it's the culture of youtube, gotta have a clickbaity title. same as when they had the "We deep faked luke skywalker better than disney"
@@ramdomperson921 The reason corridor gets shit on is because they turned themselves into a target for the people who hate ai but didn't have anyone to vent their anger to.
AI haters were just crying on the internet but thanks to corridor they now have a POPULAR target to direct their hate towards.
It's so arrogant and stupid to say they're "democratizing anime" when all you need to start animation is literally pencil and paper. Makoto Shinkai did not create an entire short film by himself in 1999 for some punks to claim to "democratize" anime in 2023.
@@zachzee590 well, in that case it was true tho. They did deep fake luke into that scene better than disney did, that was the point of the whole video
Thats not the mother fucking issue lmao. I watched the actual video they made and i fucking loved it thought it was funny asf. Then i watched the video where they explain the tech and how they made it and there was so many outta pocket shit they said its actually creepy af. Nobody thinks of the bigger picture alot of mfs are super close minded and got tunnel vision. In the future when this technology is used more and more and things like live actors and voice actors, artists are being replaced by ai to save money for big company's there will be a split. people will want authentic and real TALENT behind whatever media it is.
Always happy when anyone shouts out Joel at all. He's incredibly talented and humble. A huge amount of his content is just using his platform to build up some of the smaller creators he's friends with. Especially during his post stepping on a landmine, where none of his content involved him.
he stepped on wHat? like irl????
He’s one of my favorite creators of all time, deserves all the recognition for sure. A wholesome guy.
@@mirziyob yes, it was documented too. the video called "I hope this video ages poorly". it's very disturbing, you should watch it with friends and family 😔
@@mirziyob yeah you can even seen the video online it's fucked up. Although they brought him back to life so all good
@Bongibot yeah man hes back to normal now. Actually, id say hes even better than before! Some would say that he's insaneo style!!!
Came in expecting a neutral take, and while I still sorta got one, I still like where your going with this, I would also like to add though that the way AI does it inherently struggles to actually replicate the thought a human puts into their work, animation is a huge medium, that I, as a Computer Scientist barely understand, and getting AI to intentionally replicate things like smear frames in significant spaces while not something I will call impossible is something we are still quite a ways away from. I think the largest issue with this is that once AI gets good enough if people don't riot we will be provided subpar products that will be mass produced with little of the care that goes into most anime, and that is the scary part. I think this fits well into a cyberpunk dystopia where consumption becomes the need not enjoyment.
what about the story the animation tells? assuming all the quality of the art comes from the animation takes away from the hard work the writers put into it.
@@anapple.4338 Ai can be used to write scripts too and it's also in early days and will get progressively better with time, so it's possible for us to get to a reality where a lot of content is AI generated.
Been watching the Corridor Crew guys for years now and they aren't the kind of ppl Twitter claim them to be. I stand by them, fuck the noise.
Seriously. The people who are criticizing them don’t know who they are
Yeah all of this is fucking silly
The anime industry using AI due a "labor shortage" translates to "we don't want to pay our workers".
They are quickly going to run into a huge problem, though, at least in the US.
AI art has been ruled non copyrightable.
So anything made by AI can be freely taken and used by anyone else for free. This is going to become a problem for comercial purposes like anime. They are going to find using AI more expensive than it seems as a result.
Like the backgrounds. While in the US you can't take and use the characters and the movie itself, the backgrounds themselves from the film are free for the taking.
Yeah if the anime industry could make all their work done with ai and robots they would. They don't give af about their workers they just exploit them for profit. Using people's passions and dreams against them to keep them working souless unforgiving jobs for cheap.
@@catwhowalksbyhimself since they are only doing the backgrounds with AI wont that make no difference, since they are already not copyrightable?
Anime industry having a labor shortage is reasonable since they have ramped up the amount of anime each season has. Just compare last season to 5 years ago.
@@demonvictim Oh yeah, totally. I don't even know what's good to watch these days with so much coming out at once. Really cannot be good for the animators, this whole work cycle.
The corridor crew is always like that, they do animation challenges and are always weirdly inspirational about it all. They just like what they're doing and are good animators, they could have done this all normally but it's just a demonstration. I can see how this could be bad but it just needs to be regulated, which is probably impossible.
I have to agree but in a more negative way, corridor has been slightly too cocky. Even Mark Hammil called them out on their behavior. Even if they are revolutionizing tech, it doesn’t hurt to be more humble/professional?
@@PaavoMueller you need to understand that having a cocky/outgoing attitude when filming youtube videos generally helps the video do better in almost every metric
@@PaavoMueller eh, it's kind of just a content creation thing, I think. The Mark Hamill thing was for a similar situation where they did a Deepfake of Luke and said something like "better than Disney" in reality they were quite humble about it, in the video they even said it wasn't better than Disney. Their titles I think get them in a lot of trouble and are clickbaity and that sparks a lot of the backlash towards their work even if their messaging is the complete opposite (though it really wasn't in this newest example).
@@skylarhall5159 Yeah Ive been thinking that someone else must write their titles right? Like, it hasn't been egregious till now, but it has gotten them attention before. It's probably someone managing the youtube side of things that makes the names and descriptions, just with a few highlights and links they must throw in. I'll also have to say, they do seem to fluctuate between humble and pretty cocky, and I think it might depend on who they have in the studio at the time lmao Kind of wholesome if you think about it but I also dont watch enough of their content, just something I've noticed, especially since Fenner joined up!
@@PaavoMueller Being more humble and professional is great, but that could be said about 90% of youtube.
Man I love Joel Haver so much, glad you featured him here because he had a very unique style of videos, and I really do think he made them work really well
Omg so glad you mentioned Joel! I couldn't help but think of him during this whole video!
I follow corridor pretty heavily. They are always trying to find the new advancements in animation, VFX, ect. They follow the same sentiment that Joel haver. They are just looking for more innovative ways to be able to create. Thats what they were doing with this anime video. And trying to show people these things so more people can create. They are just a youtube channel and so they clearly dont have the resources a major studio would have to create their own original art style. I dont feel like their message is as out there as most people think after following them for a long time. They have built up and talked about this subject WAY more than people realise. They have even have an extremely long video talking about the legality and ethicality of the subject that is definitely worth watching and shows corridors approach to how they portray AI art in general.
I think the issue is that while they have talked extensively about the ethics of AI they went against it by just ripping off Vampire Hunter D. Not even that they went on a whole tangent about this technology "democratizing" animation as if people have been gatekeeping it. It's ridiculous for people who had to learn VFX software among other skills then claim animation isn't freedom. They're sadly being hypocrites and should have read the room. I love Corridor Digital as someone who's obsessed with filmmaking and behing the scenes stuff it's always interesting to see their takes on the industry. This is just one of those times they didn't get it quite right and it's a bit disappointing.
I love corridor but you'd think they would have handled their video with more tact, BECAUSE of the more nuanced videos they've made.
@@3xasfast811 I agree with a lot of what your saying in the end. It’s just every big advancement in the animation/VFX creation process has been extremely controversial. The ones who slugged it out learning techniques before an innovation are upset to see new ways that bypass the process. This is true for every industry like engineering with the creation of 3d modeling/programs/Simulations or with music with digital studio production. But more advancement will enable better ways for creative pieces to be created by those who previously couldn’t. Pain in growth is always gonna happen and I hope the AI can help advance and enable more people to make creative things and not just rip people off. Corridor has always used inspiration or often straight up using IPs content in different ways to creat awesome things. This isn’t too much of a stretch of what they did. The thing people are mad about is the clickbait terminology. Which is nothing new. But that’s the UA-cam game. And they are winning it right now for better or worse. I think they do a great job of showing these things to people who otherwise would never hear or learn about it. A lot of people are looking into them with snippet instead of the full story they have told through their content for a while now.
Big ups to Joel Haver! His work is all excellent and hilarious
When I saw that CC video and the behind-the-scenes, I immediately thought of Joel Haver's stuff, from years ago even.
"So AI doing some of the work means overworked anime creators will have less work to do, right?"
"Right?"
It's cool that Ludwig uses AI to create all of his Mogul Mails.
6:09 i agree that theft by IAs is bad but i really really hope this never becomes a reality, big companies owning draw and animations styles is beyond crazy, imagine a record label owning an entire music genre.
Imagine a world where Pablo Picasso copyrighted cubism
It's not the style is the DATA, you should not use the data like it's yours, you need to have the rights to do it. You can't no simple use a imagine and make profit of it without a license. Data has value, why do you think Facebook was in court.
If I asked an artist to draw me a self portrait in the "style" of Andy warhol, I wouldn't expect him to spitball it off the top of his head. I would want the artist to carefully peruse through warhols works and achieve the same style. The artist would constantly "look" at his works for reference and then translate that to the portrait using my face.
This is how AI is taught. It is shown an andy warhol piece, and then it is trained to recreate it from noise. It hasn't used the piece to create it. It is using its stored memory data from recreations of the original. None of the pieces it creates use the originals.
Right now you're "picturing" andy warhol paintings in your mind. If you now wanted to draw that, you'd be recreating the image from your mind, to paper. Much like how the AI does it from noise. The noise it creates from is much like the thoughts we have in our mind.
I would end up paying the artist for the self portrait, and not warhols copyright owners. Because it isn't his original work. It's a recreation with my face on it, "in his style".
I don't think people understand how AI image creation works. It creates images from literal pixel noise. Using complex algorithms it achieves consistent results that are tied to tags and keywords.
I struggle to see the theft here...
Nothing is stolen. Style and ideas are not copyrightable, only exact implementations/arrangements are. In other words, this whole, "AI steals art" debate is largely based on people that have no understanding of copyright. As others suggested, every artist somewhat already takes inspiration from existing and prior artists. Are those artists "stealing" as well? No.
@Peerless Cloud All fun and games until that prediction from noise perfectly copies a painter's signature, for example.
The way AI is trained and generates the image is not the same way humans learn and interpret style. The training data should have value, and the artists whose works were included in the training set should be getting compensated when the AI is used to generate a work for commercial purposes. It's hard for me to see how anyone could disagree with that.
Legend has it he is still waving goodbye to this very day
Bro brought out the Tony Stewart Jacket. Yes sir
The irony of ludwig complaining about clickbait
Ya how dare a UA-cam channel use clickbait
Dude this is making me so mad, lud is such a hippocrite
Fr tho
Joel is a straight up sage of the highest order.
im about to sub fr
if i had a dime for every mogul mail video with the word ‘huge’ or ‘big’ in it i’d be a millionaire
Using the art style I just don't know if I can see as stealing. Like how many animes are drawn in a similar art style, or have been "heavily influenced" by. I don't think what corridor did was wrong. But I do still agree there needs to be ground rules when it comes to the use of A.I.
I think it's pretty cool that that second guy used that AI technology with his own art style to make animation easier for himself. he found a tool that was useful for him to aid in creation and that's really cool and good for him. I think this is a good example of the problem I think most people have with AI art, which is that a lot of it uses art from other people to teach the programs without the permission of those artists.
The problem I have with this discussion is that if you pass laws and regulations preventing AI from learning off of copyrighted material, do you also open the door to laws and regulations banning people from learning off of copyrighted material? We're already seeing lawsuits around music that copies the "feel" of another person's song. Do we really want to open the door for people to gain power over entire genres or artstyles?
As a musician, I can say with absolute certainty that much of the music I make comes from being directly inspired by my favourite artists, and learning what makes their music work. And that's okay. But if I told you that song was made by AI you'd call it theft. Is there really any difference between an AI and a person learning the patterns behind what makes a certain style of art click, and then using those learnings to create new works?
Ai is a tool, and as any tool you use it to your own desires if it helps u to make something better, then keep using it. Good take
My issue is that a human can also learn without permission. I have friends that produce decent illustrations that taught themselves by redrawing comics and cartoons. By that same argument they also stole.
@@ildarion3367 "good artists copy, great artists steal" - Pablo Picasso KEKW
@@ildarion3367 recreating someone else's art for the purpose of practicing your own skills is perfectly fine in my book as long as you don't sell it for your own profit or go around trying to pass it off as your own original work.
I will say that as much as what they're saying is being taken as serious or cringe, I really just think this was a project they invested some actual time into and they used some clickbait language and titles to hype it up. I dont watch their stuff often but I've seen some of the big projects they make that go kinda viral and they do that a lot. Theyll spend time on a project and want it to be seen and appreciated so they clickbait it. Thats not super uncommon and I think viewing it from that angle makes it seem a lot less cinge and arrogant.
Click bait is okay fine, but they made a whole 30 second shot where they explained how they democratised animation. But um, animation was already democratised, there's so many software out there that let's you make animation for free you just need to learn it. What pisses people off more is if they just drew their own frames for most of the shots rather than ripping it off, they would have gotten 0 backlash.
everyone forgot corridor is a company and needs to make money, so they have to get those views.
Yes
@@kbachani229 If I understood correctly, their idea was just to show that AI will make animation available to everyone - and the technology for it is already here. You just need to feed it a lot of images in a specific style, and it can do the rest for you. They used someone else's work to demonstrate that it works... that's all.
Animation is NOT democratised. If I wanted to make a single anime episode, I'd have to spend over $100k. How is that accessible? Only rich people and corporations can afford it. And it's only that "cheap" because the artists are overworked AND underpaid, otherwise it'd be much more expensive. Sure, I could learn how to animate (and how to draw and everything else involved in the process), and THEN spend the thousands of hours it takes to make a single episode alone. But how would I do that while having a full-time job - which I need in order to pay my bills? Do I sacrifice the rest of my life? Only then it might be possible.
If you still think animation is democratised, check Jabrils youtube channel and his video about making his "dream anime". Really dedicated guy, putting a lot of effort and money trying to make his anime, and can't really do it, because - spoiler alert - it's very hard, time consuming and expensive. Not about anyone can make it, even with a lot of effort.
@@rafaelclp I agree, I tried animation when I'm in highschool and it's really difficult and time consuming. You need to have the right tools and equipment to do a decent animation. Free software tools can only get you to do basic animation like making a ball move without the artistic skill and time you will need. And with CD approach is you can record a live action video which everyone nowadays can do without spending a drawing tablet that will significantly help you draw better animation to just using your phone. Then if you don't want to use other people style's, you can create your own to be use to train the AI and just follow the process on how CD did their animation. If your project is not that ambitious you can create a 10 min animation in over a month where experienced animators would take for months to be completed
Thank you again Mogal mail for covering the big twitter drama! I had been wondering for a while why twitter was in an uproar
Is your Twitter not always in an uproar? That sounds like bliss!
The only good thing that came from AI is those AI Presidents playing games memes
lets be honest man people would still be upset if they said it was just something they made and they thought it was cool.
its twitter.
they could have made a video about them saving puppies from burning building and twitter would find a reason to get mad.
Its not even like the majority of them are real artists. Its a loud and unskilled minority
@@angulinhiduje6093 "why were they saving the puppies, instead of trying to put the flames out?" yeah I can already see the stupid comments
@@angulinhiduje6093 it usually boils down to "I'm not mad because [you did a thing], I'm mad because I didn't think of it first to use it for my own benefit"
@@angulinhiduje6093 no a majority of them r skilled artists
they are upset that their hours of work are being fed to an AI so someone can half ass what they make without the experience, time or skill
@@vida4242 That is not something a secure and confident person gets upset about.
Damn never thought id see the day when people are hating on Corrider Crew. Feels bad man
There was a whole subreddit devoted to it
I mean this is just lame idek why people are hating 💀
Its the loud mentally ill minority. Probably the same that boycotted Harry Potter.
This isnt the first time it's happened. Plenty of people within the VFX industry dislike them. They also caught some fleck over a previous clickbait title in the same vein. While I dislike the clickbaity titles, I thoroughly enjoy what they're doing
I saw a kickstarter selling an AI art book. I was like why am I paying you to use AI to make a book? I rather buy an art book by an artist heh. I did find Corridor's video entertaining. It was more than just training an AI on Vampire Hunter D. They did a lot of extra work on top of it.
Been following Joel for a long time now, he's such an amazing and humble person
The difference is that Joel Haver is using his own art style with an AI as an assistant to help him as opposed to do all the work for him. He notes that he needs to scrub through the product, and when it glitches, he needs to redraw the frame to keep consistency. Corridor took a position that them training an AI on someone else's work and using that to rotoscope is the future of the industry and actually a good thing guys. It sucks that they've put themselves in this position, cause they have entire series praising animators, SFX artists, stunt coordinators, and everything that goes into making these exact films that they're talking about democratizing, while also saying "I can do your job with an AI, and it is the future."
Tbh if you watch their podcast, they're a lot more chill than all this and are good guys. They've had some good episodes discussing ai and not always in a positive light.
Speaking of the podcast, they have previous stated on there that you shouldn't use ai to just rip someone's artstyle. I don't think that it's exactly what they have done themselves in this case. But nowhere in the main video did they credit the original art that they took to feed the ai. It's a little hypocritical and I would hope that they would be more aware of how delicate the messaging around this topic is. Especially when they have made those previous statements.
@@Scorpia260 they did credit it in thier "how its made" video though
A majority of the complaints are from people who didn’t even watch the video or their process. I’ve seen complete morons refer them to as NFT and crypto Bros too. We won’t even have debates on this topic, it’ll just be people generalizing and shouting while the people actually using the technology will move on without much discussions
@@Scorpia260 I think with the amount of work and techniques they developed, this example falls into fair use. I don't love their phrasing of "democratization", but I get what they mean. Either way, I'm looking forward to their podcast this week as I'm sure it'll be about all this.
@@Scorpia260 they said which anime the frames were from and talked about it. How you missed that, and then decided to confidently write your comment is beyond me. Or did you expect an IEEE reference to every single person involved in the making of the frames?
Love that you brought up Joel, his content is amazing.
Holy shit I need that jacket, where did you get that
Its such a funny coincidence that the video Corridor made before the Rock, Paper, Scissors one literally starred Joel Haver in it.
The way these programs learn is the sole problem i would say. And Joel is the best example of that. Because he uses his own art,style as the reference for the program to learn from. But when you take it from someone else that's where the problem is and will continue to be.
It's a hard topic as the AI's learning alghoritms are built the same way we would learn. Copying existing art.
@basilisk1997 Exactly
OK let's say the models get good enough that it only needs one picture to get the style. If you buy a painting and own it should you be allowed to take pictures of it. Lets say there are people who do a lot of copying of styles and sells it cheap can you take one of theirs and create a model from it. At a point its a done game since we essentially did a bait and switch with artist that no one knew will come. That clout that everyone offered instead of cash will be the ranking to put you on a copying list
Could literally hire an artist to rotoscope a single frame in the same style and circumvent this "training" problem.
The problem exists with how artists are compensated for their work and IP in general. Technology just highlights the issues, the issues have always been there.
Which is how it should be used to help with your own animations with your own artstyle
The funniest thing I found was the Samuel Deats twitter posts saying "You didn't wanna learn how to be an animator..." and so on...
to VFX "Artists" who had to learn to "animate" key frames with visual effects, rotoscoping areas for green screen effects, and many more "animations." They don't do hand drawn animation, but that doesn't mean they don't know how to animate.
Twitter Idiocy in a Nutshell.
Something I think that should have been brought up is how AI works. It’s not taking inspiration from the source material the way sponge bob anime is. AI copies, and rearranges already existing art to create “new art.” Every artist’s work that an AI uses to create an image is being stolen from if their permission was not granted.
I am not against AI, and I think it has a lot of use now and in the future. But AI cannot create art, only steal, and most AI does not credit or get permission to use the art that it is trained on. And until that is changed, we cannot let people claim that the generated images is a new accessible way to create art, when what they are actually doing is profiting off the unpaid work of artists.
That "corridor should be sued" thing is one of the worst takes I've seen about this situation
It really is.
Actual terminally online twitter losers
They are a business, not an individual and the product they are selling is contingent on someone else's intellectual property; or at least using ip's for advertising. It's not unreasonable as it's algorithm has a compressed version of the film.
I'd still say that the worst take is defending CD. The suing idea is the second worst take though, Twitter is a cesspool as usual.
Yeah people are just running with the "they stole" thing like it is true by default.
But as far as I am aware there is no legal precedent stating that your copyright necessarily means that your work can not be used to train an AI network without your expressed consent.
Also there is a lot of bogus information about how the AI achieves it's results.
It is not a data base of digital images...it is a neural network that has abstracted how words and phrases are related to how pixels are arranged in an image bc it was shown very large amounts of labled image data.
No, it is not copy and past the ones and zeros from the images used to train it.
It starts out from random noise and progressively itterates changing pixels to arrive at a result after completing the amount of progressive steps it was instructed to take.
A time laspse of this process easily demonstrates that is not a copy and paste function.
You might want to argue that IF somebody uses copyrighted work to train an AI then that OUGHT to be considered theft.
But strictly speaking, as far as I am aware...that is not simply a legal given and has yet to be decided by law makers or the courts.
6:16 the BIG problem with auto detecting if an AI is trained on a certain source like one anime is that the Style itself that the anime uses isn't protectable by copyright. that means corridor is completely save from being sued because they only copied the Style and no character or scene that is copyrighted. they even went the extra step and put the AI image results of themselves that they liked BACK into the AI. so they where actively affecting what Style and outcome the AI produces and thus creating a new Style.
the background is made the same way. they used a FREE to comercialise 3d model of a cathedral close to the style they wanted and used the AI to place a cartoon filter onto it like they did with the characters. the background and characters are two separtely generated layers and composed together in the post process like shown in the behind the scenes or the side by side video.
again. because they just used the style of the anime (that isn't copyrightable) and created their own characters (from their RL look) out of it with an AI, it doesn't mean at all that they "stole" and "copied" the anime with the AI and can be sued. it is like you following a Bob Ross tutorial and getting sued because you learned his style good enough to create your own Art that looks really close to the original style. Styles and many other things CAN'T be copyrighted because nobody can own a style. it would be like trying to own the Fantasy genre as an Author.
also about the question of that they used that IP. no they did not. yes they used it as "inspiration" and used it's art stlye but they used none of their places, characters, artworks or any other protected thing in their resulting video. it doesn't matter what paint or reference you use to make your own art if the result is not a 1:1 copy of your sources and their video is clearly not.
Bunch of angry dweebs in these comments that don't understand this...
I agree but still think its unethical. This is less of a conversation of whether its legal to sample something and more of an issue of trying to get around the skill and pay of colorists, character designers, animators, etc. I think it would have been fire if they paid those sorts of people or got consent from them and then trained AI to show its potential.
The fact that they used the style of a specific anime isn't really the issue here. The issue arises when you take into consideration how the AI functions. You can't make an AI that creates something "In the style of X" without having it train on "X", and whether or not that constitutes fair use is unexplored territory.
Here come the dweebs xD
Adding to this that one of the critics shown in this video is the director of Castlevania. A show that was praised for taking inspiration from the artstyle of Vampire Hunter D. So when an AI copies a style it is wrong and stealing, yet when an entire animation studio does it, it is fine?
It's funny how people say that a machine can steal something that was previously not really seen as "stealable" as it can't be copyrighted (and honestly shouldn't ever be).
I’m so glad Billy Gibbons was able to find Ludwig’s car.
Deeply appreciate you using your platform to talk about this, but you mixed a key point up. Joel Haver doesn’t use generative AI like the corridor guys used. Grease pencil is different and fundamentally more ethical technology.
Even without using Vampire Hunter D frames, all the random styles that AI generates are created from a data set of art that was scraped from the internet without the consent of the people who created that art. And of course none of those artists are compensated by corridor or the Ai companies, even though the AI wouldn’t be able to create anything without using their work as a base. Not all machine learning tech is fundamentally bad, but everything about programs like Stable Diffusion, Dall-e, and midjourney that can generate images from prompts without any artist input is.
I went into how all of this tech is built on art theft in my own new video about the ethics and Ramifications of using it in animation. For a more in depth look at the shady practices of companies like stable diffusion I also highly recommend the video “The End of Art: An Argument Against Image AIs”
wow you made an entire video on how ai art tech is built. You must be super knowledgable about the topic then. Surely you could explain the general process of how stable diffusion works without having to look it up. Im sure someone who knows as much as you could easily do that. you probably have a really strong understanding of basic cmpsc too. Im sure you know all about basic cmpsc algorithms like bfs, dfs, dikstras and a*.
@@praneethramesh4535 Yeah I don’t think you need any of that to understand it’s unethical.
@@praneethramesh4535 You are a cringe self proclaimed intellectual. Just wanted to make sure you are aware of this moving forward.
@@VVD00D tbh i dont know why ur going to bat for the youtuber who made a trash video basically calling ai art a collage
@@praneethramesh4535 Mother's Basement video was bad but you are here giving unnecessary hate is even worse
It's odd because if I watch anime and start drawing I am taking what I learned from anime I watched. But if a robot watches anime and then learns to draw from it that's theft? It's not copying anything more than we do. It does take a job away which makes sense to be upset about but to say it's stealing someones art that's just not true.
an ML algorithm does not learn in the same way humans do, diffusion is not analogous to how humans make art, and ML in this context is not a democratizing tool but rather the boot
well, the video itself is fun to watch and in the behind the scenes they go into detail about how much work is actually necessary to make the AI spit out something even remotely close to the final product - there is still a ton of manual work done to achieve this result. the clickbait and big words are pretty youtube standard and cringe itself, but i get it - this is months of r&d and post process work, so it has to pay off for them, since their company has something like 30 employees
This was such a bad take from Ludwig. You couldn't ask for a more ignorant opinion than what Ludwig posted. This is seriously such a fucking stupid take, maybe next time he should spend more than 5 minutes reading a fucking twitter thread to form his opinion. No shit Sherlock, it looks like Vamp Hunt D since that's what they trained the AI on Ludwig. They have literally made a video with Joel before, even Joel agrees that it's a completely different type of animation, and it looks NOTHING like what Joel does, only a smooth brain ignoramus would think that it resembles his videos. The whole point of the Corridor video is that you can pick any animation style which you love and train an AI to honor the original animation to render your video into that specific animation style. Lost respect for Ludwig here.
+1
I thought the same thing, but no one seems to acknowledge this.
Ok but that's all undercut by the theft of other people's art via AI. It also just looks like shit
if they made it all themselves, sure.. awesome... But they didn't... They didn't feed the AI their own drawings etc.. They fed it a show which is owned and created by another company to make a blatant ripoff of their artstyle.. They suck
7:52 Wait.... isn't that...literally the reason why this is such a big commotion? Because this technology can literally change the animation business forever.......?
What am I missing here?
Listen.. twitter will be twitter
@@Bem-0 "oh boy, how cute, you didnt change anything"...proceeds to have existential rant on twitter
I never thought I would see Corridor (Crew) in a Mogul Mail video
Anime is a good example of a place where AI tools can be useful to creators, but Ai is not useful as a creator. Definitely a workable use of an Ai tool would be to generate Interframes to transition between Keyframes as a post processing step. As the lawyers are saying, "AI will not replace Lawyers, Lawyers with AI assistance will replace Lawyers without it".
The labor issue is a different issue entirely. The current industry is relying on never ending crunch to get the product out the door with tiny underpaid teams. Every tool introduced to make workers more productive has the potential to improve work conditions, or to demand more output. Places that already have strong labor laws, unions, or pro-worker cultures will see workers more productive and happy. But any company already exploiting workers will exploit them for more and pay less.
The cotton gin could have made workers lives better, instead it made cotton slavery profitable.
I would fear that the use of ai in the anime industry would just lead to them hiring less artists, while still paying the same bad salary to the few that would still be hired.
Idk anything in depth about it, but my guess would be that the issue with the industry rn doesn't stem from the companies themselves, but from the contracts they have with the Japanese TV industry and them not paying as much as they should to be able to have a fair industry. (also, many Japanese companies not seeing the potential of their overseas viewers)
That's very optimistic I think companies will go like "so the AI is doing some of your work ? Got it we will pay you less" or even replace some jobs animation includes a lot of process that ai cannot CANNOT replicate and higher-ups dont care abour the ai cannot do the sketch and storyboards then the corrections then have discussion with the art director etc the ai just do the thing right away and actual artists will probably have to fix everything it produces like doing 5% less work but getting pay 50% less
Obviously rotoscoping has evolved a bit but if I recall the animated version of Lord of the Rings was done with rotoscoping animation and it turned out to be even more work than hand drawn. They are only making clips here but to make an entire show or movie using that technology is similar work to hand drawn because to make shots look good you need the actors positions to be good. The Lord of the Ring movie ran into a lot of problems and there is a reason that type of animation never took off.
Even now, it's still pretty rough. The video that Ludwig briefly showed from Joel Haver about rotoscoping software explains how he has to go back and re-draw weird looking frames every single time a character blinks, says something, moves around too much, interacts with an object... you get the idea.
You have to consider too, of course corridor crew, a boatload of extremely talented visual effects artists, are going to produce good shit with the tools available to them.
If you take what Corridor did as a rough cut and clean it up you might make some decent animation but like what's the point. The stuff they made was super low quality and super rough I don't think it's a viable technology at the moment. Especially not for big companies who aren't investing into this kind of experimental technologies.
Yeah I wouldn't use LOTR as a the best example. It was super new at the time, and it was probably the first time a feature film had been made using the technology as extensively as it was. Plus, Bakshi was an absolute dude, went out to Milan to film a tonne of actors for it, basically tried tk fit a tonne of the books in there and just tried out new techniques on the final animation.
@@Chimera-man-man That's kinda why I used it as an example. It exemplifies that this type of animation has been around for a long time and LotR wanted to try something new but also thought rotoscoping was the future. It was also one of the biggest productions using the technology so a good example to show how hard it is to create feature length stuff with the animation tech. As I said the tech has improved but as you can tell by the clips it takes a lot of work to even make those look good. Just using LotR as an example on why it never took off despite it being relatively old.
Anyone who claims that ripping off a style is art theft doesn't know what they're talking about. There is nothing intrinsically identifiably unique about an animation style and it is wholly acceptable and legal and always has been to look at someone else's output from their animation studio and go "that we want to do that."
The same is true for every other piece of media that we consume.
Dude it is not about a style. People use the word because it is the best way to describe it.
what people are against is the use of copyrighted art in training these AI model.
@@mayankprasoontirkey369 People use copyrighted art in training their own model. It's a lot of ado about nothing.
Sorry, but complaining that the AI was trained on your work is like complaining that someone looked at another piece of art and tried to replicate the style by hand. There is no difference.
@@MCXL1140 mate you do know how machine learning works and how it's not same as looking at art style. Right?
@@mayankprasoontirkey369 Yes I understand very well how it works, and it is effectively the same as looking at an art style. Particularly the type of model that they use with specific orientation and training off of both the people involved and the specific art style they were looking for, you can see that it's creating whole cloth completely new elements and characters that don't exist in the original anime whatsoever, rather than piece mealing something together that's similar looking to something that already exists.
@@MCXL1140 well congratulations you have successfully demonstrated that you lack basic understanding of both.
1. You can't replicate a style just by look at it. Other wise there would have been a gazillion clone of famous artists. You need other input like tools and thought process.
2. Where as a ML negates every other factors. Rather uses precise estimation based on algorithm trained on top of *illegally obtained data*. Producing an image. It possible to add your own image as input. Primarily why you saw new elements. Regardless the ability to Generate a new element does change the arguments and people are against it.
It's completely different from how human works.
3. I don't have problem with styles. What i have problem with is how it obtained the data and the way they use it.
I think the Corridor Crew are just excited that it sounded pretentious to others.
"to dumb people"
As soon as you described how they animated it I thought of Joel. One of the best sketch comedy UA-camrs!
This is truly one of the debates of all time
@Darktion lmao wtf
A few things to note about corridor. 1. They have pretty much said everything that Joel said before. Though perhaps not super clearly communicated in their recent video. 2. They put months of work into the video and did find creative ways to incorporate their own stuff. Example being Nikos characters beard, the AI didn't know how to do that as there was no reference for such a beard in the anime. 3. They are just super nerds. They love this stuff (Niko and a few others especially) so perhaps their enthusiasm for this cool tech maybe got the better of them in some ways.
At the end of the day lets remember that these guys are the same people who have an entire series dedicated to giving stunt people, animators and vfx artists a platform to share and educate about the work they do. And give them the recognition that they deserve for their hard work. They themselves have a huge history on UA-cam being a small team of independent creators.
They are not malicious art thieves, far from it. HOWEVER this is a new frontier in terms of human creativity and the lines of what is ok and not ok are particularly blurred right now. So for the time being I think it far more productive to view things like this as an opportunity to figure out where those lines should be. Rather than the typical reactionary twitter hate mob.
As a final note I do believe this tool has the potential to enable countless people the creative freedom to do things previously far more inaccessible. However I do believe that it should enable ones own style (Joel Haver) and not necessarily the use of someone else's style. Unless for the purposes of demonstration or parody. And certainly not for profit without any fundamental transformative element of the art style itself. That is to say that the wacky story and characters are great and clearly their own creation, but are probably not enough to consider it transformative of the art style itself. That being said I do believe Corridor are good and genuine people.
P.S Joel Haver is amazing and everyone should go check out his stuff if they haven't already. He is a gem of a human being. Also you should check out the video Joel and Corridor actuality did together. It's called Exposing Hollywood's most thankless job ft. Joel Haver.
Peace and love my fellow terminally online internet weirdos.
This should be the top comment. Been following them for like a decade and this whole situation was just simply something they could have handled with more care and tact.
As an artist, it sucks to watch this hurt commissioners & small communities, but there's no honest logic behind the arguments against it. If I sit down and create an anime styled face by splicing features of different characters, it's literally just a digital collage... That's still art, and as long as the creators of original pieces I pulled from are credited, then there's no issue.
People emotionally reacting against how much easier this makes artistic expression are the same entitled people that would've bashed pre-mixed paints in the 1870's. "But you're removing a human element of the art" Why does every process have to be done by a human??? Does it take less skill to fill in an area with the paint-bucket tool? Is it then cheating to use straight-edge tools on digital work meant to imitate paintings? Rejecting a new technology doesn't make anyone more valid as an artist, it just makes them stubborn, and short sighted.
after watching their videos for a while, I think what they wanted to say was that they made this 'cool' animated short using AI, but the way they phrased it in the title and in the video of them explaining the VFX, they blow it out of proportion, most likely to get more views
That's very obviously their intent and how they expressed everything in their video, but we live in a world where borderline personalities dictate public discourse leading to up becoming down and left becoming green so their excitement get's distorted into malice.
most of the discourse was aimed at tech bros who were freaking about this cause its ai
Welcome to UA-cam
@@lilyliao9521 Yeah I didn't see too many people mad at corridor themselves, just at the tech bros soyjacking about how they've changed the animation industry forever and all that junk
Thank you for restoring my faith in these comments, so daft that no-one can see the clear intention of corridor. I'd hate to see them abandon this new work flow thanks to misguided twitter takes.
Ludwig's back! Makes me remember how much I love how much personality his room has.
Who is Ludwig?
I only know Mogul Mail
who tf is Ludwig? sounds like a loser
mogul killed ludwig quit coping you know its true, i miss him as well
huge daytuh comment
Imagine being so exited for your new video/project that you just want too tel people about it
Corridor obviously put a lot of work into this, as well as time and passion. Is there a point where enough work goes into a project, that it becomes unique enough, or is something like ai image generation a tool that should never be used?
I’m so happy you shows Joel Haver, seriously he’s one of the best creators on UA-cam and is such a wholesome guy
Couldn't have said it better myself. He is also creative in other ways beyond the animation process and it isn't the focus of the content.
@@squigglyspooch246 “Pretend like you love me” or “Drowning in Potential” feature films from him are some of my favorites
I didn't think to see corridor in drama
As someone who wants to become an illustrator professionally, I really don't like AI, and it makes me nervous for my career's future before it even began.
While I do agree with Lud, I’d like to clarify more on the general stance on ai art in the art community as I’ve seen it, as an artist currently in art school.
Ai art only becomes bad and problematic once art gets used without permission; it’s as if you’d use samples from copyrighted songs to create music. Most artists I’ve seen (including me) believe that ai art that uses copyrighted works should be banned/claimed, just as copyrighted music is, and just like Lud mentioned, but what’s the most frustrating to me personally are “tools” like midjourney that trained their ai on stolen art have become the norm and standard, which’ll make it harder to normalise a more ethical way of using ai. Like if I’d use my own art to train an ai and post said works right now, and label it as ai, I’d probably get a lot of backlash since the standard has become ai art = stolen art, which is really sad. Ai isn’t the “true future of art”, but it’s another tool for us artists to use, just like layer-blending modes or the magic wand tool in photoshop, once we get proper laws and court cases that help protect our copyright on our digital works.
Small side rant, but it feels like there’s so little information about digital art when it comes to taxes/government bodies. Like I tried looking up the laws around taxing digital art in my country on our government run website, but they barely even mentioned it. After digging for 30min I found that digital art isn’t classified as art, but as an electronic service, but finding that small bit of text was hard. They mentioned more about the taxing on selling skins for video games than digital illustrations.
I'm glad he talked about Joel. I love his channel and the way the does his videos. Of course, technology should be a tool to make things better, but it can go out of hand FAST. I really hope legislators regulate this type of technology soon, they are already late imo
Corridor also used it as a tool, just like editing software and 3D software are tools. It's just something new and people are afraid of change.
if you want to know what's going on with AI generated art legally, there is a trend among lawmakers to make it none copyrightable. meaning no company can copyright it. So they essentially need to hire artists to hold any form of copyright over their art.
Oh, so you want restrictions in art. Ok karen.
@@ghosthunter0950 Wow, I actually think that's a pretty good idea and hopefully they go down towards that type of route.
@@YMilkshake I don't necessarily disagree, but as long as lines are not clear, it could bring problems. Like the person saying Corridor should be sued by this. That's too much imo, but since the US works on precedents, that could make things even messier than just legislating.
It’s good that we’re talking about these topics now while the ai field is still relatively new as opposed to later.
Inevitably the government while not understanding it will make a decision that is highly influenced by lobbyists.
I hope it'll be lobbyists for authors that argues we should create an income pot, where all AI money goes into & that gets split to an artist union /the devs etc. (which has some obvious downsides, too, esp for smaller creators that want to use AI - those would have to be exempt I guess idk)
But may also be animation studio interest holders & only big industry that's winning.
But in the end I do think, the current will of the people will remain irrelevant - it's the decisions of the lawmakers in the upcoming decade that really matters in how ai is going to be approached.
Copy right and Internet always had issues & I love the freedom we have now.
Upload filters to check for copyrighted materials I consider wrong, but how tf can you even determine how much an AI learned from which source - and how much of which knowledge is contributing positively VS negatively to the end product. It's impossible to be 100% fair & I can absolutely understand the fear of artists to be even more abused.
Nonetheless, I'm excited for the personal uses AI will provide to each and everyone of us.
I actually loved it! I can definitely understand why people are upset, but damn is the result exciting. I do like the suggestion of using your own drawings. I just think its a cool thing that opens the medium a bit.
It’s taking inspiration from others, it’s not stealing.