Options for Optics on Retro Rifles: Modernizing Retro Rifles Series
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- Опубліковано 12 лип 2024
- Retro Rifles have been the new thing recently, and although they are very cool, there are a number of advantages that modern tools afford us. I'd like to continue talking about retro rifles in this video, but this time, I'd like to focus on Optic choices.
Retro rifles are really cool, but also some features are outdated. In the hands of a capable shooter, any rifle can be useful, but are there some ways that we can make these old rifles more practical in a modern context, while still being faithful to the original designs and intentions?
That is the question that this series will seek to answer. We will be looking at 4 things to start: sling, light, optic, and magazines.
Part 1: Slings: • Modernizing Retro Rifl...
M16a1 Build: • My Budget-ish M16a1 Build
Email: 8mmmauserman@gmail.com
Venmo: @Official_8MM
Outro Music: PT109 by Jimmy Dean - Розваги
Late 90s the when the Army adopted the M68 CCO (Aimpoint Comp2), the gooseneck mount was designed for the M16A2. M4s with the flat top didn't need it of course.
Indeed. Thanks for the history tidbit
The oldschool red dot you were talking about is called an occluded gun sight.
Use to put a lit cigarette in the handle hole to check our windage back in the day.. 😊
Amazing 😂
My poor old First Sergeant would've had an absolute heart attack if ever he saw a man carrying that thing.
He would’ve been gunny during the jelly donut scene
Looks ridiculous also never put a flashlight on a weapon unless you want to get shot!
@@astragreen😂
I built my “retro modern” rifle off a Windham Weaponry A1 Government, which already had some changes from the basic A1, like a brass deflector, 1/7 twist barrel, M4 feed ramps, etc. In my case, I swapped out the trigger for a Timnay single stage, the charging handle for a Raptor Radion, a free float tube with the A1 handguards clamped over it, a two point adjustable sling, a FSB mounted light like yours, and a carry handle optic mounted on top.
Of all the aesthetic things I like about retro ARs, the carry handle was always the most distinctive. It gives the rifle so much personality, but I also recognized the benefits red dots have and why the carry handle went away. However, as optic height trends shifted, we started seeing a shift towards skyscraper mounts for upright head position shooting, and many people pointed out that optic height is basically the same height as a red dot mounted on a carry handle. So now I can have the retro aesthetic of a carry handle with a modern red dot.
It’s always interesting to see the trends, and I agree that carry handles are a beaut.
@@8mmmauserman Yeah, it's nice that I can essentially have my cake and eat it, too. The aesthetics and personality of a carry handle but still using a modern red dot. And I have noticed the same benefits people point out about things like the Unity Fast Mount.
im literally doing the same thing. basically taking the money id buy a unity riser with and buying a stripped upper then just swap back to my a2 handgaurd and get the fsb picatinny mount for light 🙏🏼🤙🏼
It's even simpler when you have complete upper assemblies and swap them out for different tasks. Think about it like a Thompson Contender. You can change calibers and barrel lengths quickly and easily with just 2 push pins on the AR Weapon System.
The hole in the carry handle also doubles for a auxiliary snap in brass deflector. A removable butt stock padded riser can help with cheek weld.
I had to look up the brass deflector. That’s really cool
The Brownells/Colt Retro scope is highly regarded for retro style rifles and is even period correct, albeit with some modern upgrades.
The weight isn't that bad on an A1 profile barrel, lighter than a lot of carbines actually. A2 is a little heavier but still not bad if theres not a bunch of stuff mounted on it. I prefer the A1 profile since it's still really accurate and very light, but not sacrificing the 20 inch barrel which gives most 5.56 loads optimal velocity.
Agreed. I really think the A1 handles nice.
When it comes to mounting optics, I tend to avoid it on my surplus or older guns. The sole exception was a Spanish 1916 Mauser Carbine in 7×57. Was exceptionally flat shooting at 200 yards but the irons were set up for left hand shooting. I wanted to mount an optic in the Scout style like what is available for the M24/47. Since my rifle's rear sight is an old 1895 patter which is pinned at the front of the rear sight, there wasn't any options available. I just gad the reciever drilled and tapped for scope bases.
Keep in mind, this Mauser had previously been sanitized of it's markings. It had been cerakoated which i fixed, and it had been installed in a Monte Carlo Stock with a leather cheek pad to allow left handed shooting. I was not damaging a historical weapon at that point, just making a pretty all right hunting rifle
I agree with you. I have a general rule of no permenant modifications to milsurps unless there are issues like you said.
Good job, looking good!
Thanks!!!
Great video bro
The A2 is what I was trained on and what I was issued, so I have a fondness for it. However, my Mk I eyeballs are getting on in age and I find myself in need of optical assistance. I do like that gooseneck option, having only recently discovered it. I'm fortunate that you used the Romeo 7, which is the optic I've elected to put on all my standard sporting rifles, so that I know that works, too. Thanks for the vid.
Glad to help. I found it to be a bit too front heavy, but I hope you enjoy it!
For best and cheapest results just replace fixed carry handle upper receiver with a stripped flattop upper receiver(sans feed ramps) and buy commercial .795 height detachable carry handle. That’s it. And, going this route, no special considerations for optics needed, since the flattop will accommodate any notion the shooter deems appropriate. I get the idea behind suggestions here about scoping while maintaining retro look but all are just band aids to desired result, hitting where aimed. Nevertheless, the author did a great job enlightening shooters, who want to stay with A1 or A2 upper, of optics out there that might entertain. These shooters might be surprised though that the A2’s iron sights will generally get better results than any optic if the shooter can master the concept of sight alignment and trigger control.
Thanks for the advice and for watching! I have a more recent video comparing the pros and cons of the A1, A2, and detachable carry handles. At this point is basically solely an aesthetic choice to go with anything but a flat top. The flat top is definitely moe versatile and better in almost every way, but something just keeps bringing me back to the old school…
@@8mmmauserman yeah, I am old school too and there are some cases where old school is still better, like 1000 yard Service Rifle Competition using irons. The A2 gets the job done but the A4 is not a sure thing for elevation adjustment needs. At any rate, now that I’ve converted my A2 to A4 I’m too lazy to convert it back.
@@charlesludwig9173 I would like to build an A4 clone someday as well. I want a more practical 20" than my A1
@@charlesludwig9173Looking for some sight alignment advice. Thinking of trying a .52 skinny post. Thanks
I never liked the gooseneck and I managed to get an authentic ARMS mount on top of the carry handle. Yes, it basically makes you do a chin weld instead of cheek but if you aren't doing prone long range shooting, it's very comfortable for CQB.
The gooseneck definitely has some downsides, probably the biggest being the weight.
Great video 😅
Watch out on that C-more sight. Depending on your eyes it can wash out in really bright sunlight. See if you can get that hood for it first and try it out. Depending on your eyes of course. I had that set up on a goose neck mount in the late 90's and thats what happened. And careful putting it back in the safe for it will hit the wall first. I did love that set up though and I'm building another. Great video and thorough.
Interesting… I wonder if they’ve improved the design
You can buy a different laser projector for it an enhance the brightness of the laser. It washed out on me but that was in Arizona in 110 degree heat. I just shot one with the hood/sun shade device and it worked great!I'm going to make another one now.@@8mmmauserman And it was also on the scout mount set-up when the wash out happened.
No matter which way you choose to go with building your Retro style rifle... remember only your opinions matter....i added a quad rail to mines and alot of people would never for a Retro Build However im building off my love for the style and my preferred look...Have fun with your build.
For real. It’s your gun. Just have fun with it brother
Retro rifles in Reno Nevada has a lot of good handguard stuff in barrels and everything for these old rifles too
Good to know
I built a pair of retro clones a 601 and 607(pistol)
I use Fulton Armory slickside uppers with m4 feedramps and modern pencil barrels. This gives modern reliability and function.
Then on my 607 pistol, i replaced the front sling swivel with a light rail. A carry handle mounted vortex strikefire. And a "vickers" sling
I love how modern that is. I have my A2 set up with a modern optic and it’s a really handy little rifle
@@8mmmauserman perfect truck gun to ride in my 71 with fuel injection and overdrive
I've used the Aimpoint mount with Aimpoint Red dot T-2 on a pre ban Colt 9mm since the late 90s and it works well. I have it sighted in a little higher than the iron sights as it just points better that way but it would co-wit no problem. I'd imagine these mounts will become hard to find again with everyone building retro clones like they are. Hell I should have kept some of the older ARs I got rid of now they're worth a lot more than I sold them for lol. BTW that weird looking sight your talking about was "occluded sight" think of a red dot with the cover on the front of it all the time. Best Regards
The retro craze is interesting. I’m excited (as a non bandwaggoner) to snag them up cheap when it passes
@@8mmmauserman I'm in the process of putting together a XM177 E2 look-a-like I'm not calling it a clone cuz I'm just using an regular PSA lower I already had lying in the closet so it will not have the government markings but only thing I have left to do is pin&weld the fake "Moderator" on the barrel so I can put it together and I am done. All together minus the 140$ lower I have around 500$ into it and that's not bad at all to me. Hell I might sell it and do it all over again with a Franklin Armory Binary lower for the fun factor!! Best Regards
PRI makes a gooseneck for around $90 USD with a pic-rail. Currently running it on a M16K clone build.
I’m running my eotech exps on an Aimpoint gooseneck mount and it works fine. Not as good as the modern mounts of course but it gets the job done and is surprisingly accurate.
That’s generally how I feel about this type of thing. It’s not perfect, but it works ok
@@8mmmauserman this used to be the best way then ya know? It’s funny how having the red dot up higher like some ppl are running with the unity risers and all is just like running a red dot on a carry handle lol.
Agreed
Sarco has one for dirt cheap but it's called a leatherwood. The website's kind of wonky but you need to get to where you're searching for AR-15 M16 parts I think it might be like page 9 age 8 is where you'll find this contraption
Quick comment.... I would never put an optic with an open emitter on any firearm that might be used for serious purposes. Get some mud on the emitter and there's no dot. Even just one raindrop on the emitter can keep the dot from reaching the glass. For fun firearms, why not! For use for serious social occasions I'd only use a closed emitter!!!
I recently bought an open emitter dot for a carry gun. I will be testing how serious this is.
I dont know why, but Ive ALWAYS preferred the "retro" style rifles much more then the guns on the market for today. Probably has to do with many of my dads friends being Vietnam vets and growing up with a Colt SP2 in the house. Ive been trying to semi-modernize a few of the rifles I own just to keep them up to a more modern standard, on my SP2 I used a Brownells retro optic (Do not recommend, Brownells sucks) a Midwest Ind. front sight rail mount, a Surefire scout light and modern adjustable 2 point sling. Thinking of changing out the retro 4x for a 3.5x or 4x Acog. Im also working on a Type 3 style AK in a similar guise aswell as my Daewoo AR200
Thanks for the info on the Brownells sight. Primary Arms has some low power scopes that mount on carry handles. Maybe I’ll try that
So I have to chime in with handguards the SL from Magpul are the best handguards going and they're so dirt cheap but they give you m-lock mounting so it's kind of not old school but it's a very modern quality product and there's also a product out there that is a small piece of rail that goes on the bayonet lug so you can mount a light on it I think it's from kley -zion. They also have a combination light mount and it's got wings on it to use clash hooks for your sling. And keep in mind the Vietnam era guys would use paracord to make it so a sling of it just about any kind could be put on the rifle if you don't like having hardware that squeaks and rattles get your swing up there and put three loops of paracord on it tie it really good burn the end shut heat up the knot and melt it so it doesn't untie and you're ready to go
I got my gooseneck from an unsecured connex.
Would I be able to mount an HS403R onto the Aimpoint gooseneck mount? I saw somewhere that it used a Weaver rail, but you putting the Romeo 7 on it makes me think I would be able to use the Holosun on mine. Appreciate the great video!
Thanks for watching! I’m honestly not sure…0
Thank you for this. We still use A1 in the Philippines. 😅
They still work bro. Chrome lined barrel needed over there.
I Believe Dillon Precision does carry the See-more Railway! A Meprolight m-21 on that gooseneck would be Very Cool!
They’re reall cool
The forward mount came with the Army M68 (Aimpoint Comp2), nobody used them bcuz we had flattop uppers.
Right. It’s just an option that’s available
usually with pic adapter mounts depending on the optic at 50 yrd zero its like a .5-1.5 in in height over bore
pretty much all ACOGs alow for carry handle mounting, same goes with most primary arms prism scopes
I have a Primary Arms prism on a carry handle.
What do you recommend for a 25yo bushmaster w fixed handle, original hand guard, is there a way to mount a forgrip without changing the guards? Ty
You can buy pic-rail adapters that acre into the hole on hand guards. In the “lights” part of this series, I talk about them.
I have had a really hard time getting a optic to zero with the picatinny adaper on top of the carry handle. Any tips?
Hmm… 1. There are many cheap adapters which aren’t made the best quality.
2. Locktiting the adapter and making sure it’s properly torqued.
3. Just making sure nothing is coming loose.
08:21 I've actually seen that mount be used in Afghanistan back in 2014.
Interesting
I have a gooseneck build that I've been looking at the Romeo7 for. Are you using the low mount on the optic?
Yes. It's not really conducive for this set up sadly
@@8mmmauserman You mentioned that due to forward weight. Is there any other issue with it? My build is an 11.5".
@@EruditeFuzz I specifically meant that the Romeo 7 make it hard to use the irons, they're barely visible whereas I was hoping for a lower 1/3.
@@8mmmauserman That's exactly the info I needed. I think I'll end up going with a pic-rail mounted microdot, bit I'm still biding my options. Thanks for the reply, dude.
@@EruditeFuzz Glad to help. I have a 2.5x Primary Arms Prism mounted on my A2 fixed carry handle, and I love it. Maybe other reddots would work well with the gooseneck, but I'm not sure which ones. I also just really like the height of dots on carry handles. It's very comfortable I think.
Sarco has a lot of m16/ar15 parts some of it some older vintage type some of us repro but definitely check out their website they've got some really good stuff there so does BoTach in Las Vegas they have a section for police trade-ins they currently have a crap load of Colt 20 round mags from police departments around the country
I’d like to snag some of their 20 rounders
I think sarco has some two but I'm not sure about sarco's prices but the police department was BoTach is our advertising them as all being Colt 20 rounders
Hey I just looked over to del-ton's website they have a dissipator upper for 259.
FYI trijicon makes the acog made for the carry handle.
I also have a Primary Arms Prism on a carry handle
i wish you did a pov of the gooseneck to see what it looks like looking down sights
Sorry about that. Basically if I tried to use the irons with this combo, I just barely could, but the dot covered the front post.
Can you send a link or atlist name the optics i hav m16a2 and want to add an optic for that what should i get 😝
Do you know what the torque specs for the scope/rail mount's nut/screw is?
I’m not sure. I normally tighten down to where I don’t think it will come off (it’s only 5.56), but not too tight to strip it. I also use loktite for serious use.
@@8mmmauserman thank you
@@hoppinggnomethe4154 Sorry I couldn't help more!
Rather than AR15 with rail hand guard
The classic AR15 is cool
I agree sir.
Finally someone with mud on their gun
The worse the weather, the more fun I have shooting.
the seymour is the one from black ops which is a selling point in and of itself lol
Based
@@8mmmauserman i kinda want a black ops flat top AR now lol
Not clone correct to the time period (actually a lot of the things in that game aren’t accurate to the late 60’s when it takes place) but it is still fun to shoot Spetznaz with a G11
@@8mmmauserman yea i dont even think the components to build a black ops M16 with red dot clone exist at all
Lot problems with goose neck ,not holding zero , they issued new one with a pin told hold it in place
Interesting... I didn't beat it up bad, but I never had problems.
whats the tape on the handguard for?
mine has a really bad rattle. I think it was a common problem because you can find lots of taped handguards in Nam. In lots of cases they would have cleaning rods taped to the outside of the gun in case of a stuck case probably.
Though recently I found out that the teeth on mine that lock it into the barrel nut are completely worn through, so that’s a lot of the problem.
How 'bout Mepro M21 with carry handle?
I think US nuclear security used/uses Mepros on Gooseneck mounts
Forgot Acog mounts. I run a Primary Arms 3xprism.
I have a PA 2.5 on my A2
The type of sight with the two eyes open and the dot is transposed is called an 'occluded sight'.
Right, they are very cool. I definitely prefer modern red dots though
I admire your spirit. That said it looks a little like you’re trying to make a square peg go in a round hole. But hey, this IS still America. Rock n roll young man.
Thanks. Lot's of people put these mounts on these guns before flattops were available. This video was about how to achieve that look/feel. I have an A2 Carbine I keep with an optic' but this rifle now lives stock.
🇦🇺😎👍
🇺🇸🤠✌️
I always play outside the sandbox.
My mom said I was special too! Playing outside the sandbox is fun
@@8mmmauserman ha! :)
is the op mewing right now?
I’m 25, but kinda a boomer. I have no idea what this means
that's a nut not a screw. nut has female threads, screw has male threads. I agree with the leuopold pronunciation ha ha
I’m an expert at misspeaking. I usually get these things right, but thanks for the correction
I feel old. I’ve been running my CAR15 I’ve had brand new since I was a teenager in the 80’s. I also have more modern AR’s with modern things like lights and the like on them. I my opinion, you want modern, stick to modern. Adding things to older rifles that were never designed to have them in the first place makes no sense and just ruins the character of them. I tried to say it in the most respectful way I could, without someone getting butt hurt. But again, it’s just some guys opinion…. You do you man. I’ll keep my CAR rocking the way it is supposed to.
I agree with you in a way as well. Many guys in the 90’s would put red dots and lights on rifles before we had the modularity that we do now, so that’s what I was inspired by. In a sense, I just wanted to see how far you could hypothetically go with these rifle without changing its form.
Thank you for the thoughts, and though my M16 currently still just has the light attached, I think that will be being taken off very soon.
@@8mmmauserman awesome man. Im in the process of gathering parts for my next project. My goal is to clone my dad’s XM16E1 he carried over in Vietnam. I still remember practically begging him for that CAR i have and he insisted i get just the Colt AR-15. It had the triangular hand guards and everything. Should have listened to my pops, but then I wouldn’t have my CAR. Miss him. Anyways… went off track there. You have some cool content man. Keep doing you! Change for no one.
Aloha 🤙🏽
Thanks for the comments! Stay well
Make a video on it I wanna see it
I think it’s best to leave retro rifles in their respective time period configuration. Iron sights and duct tape flashlight.
Lots of respect for this opinion. I just wanted to know my options.
I don't know why you'd want modern optics anywhere near retro rifle? That's just me I guess.
Sometimes people want to clone rifles used during the period of time between when optics started being used and flat tops were popularized. It’s not for everyone
As guy how in my 40s thank you for not modding this gun and ruining it ..its a kid girl that is awsome
What is this supposed to say?
What retro build is that?
It’s an M16a1. I put together from a surplus parts kit. It’s mostly correct, except the lower is an Anderson and the barrel .750 gas block journal. I plan on replacing both from PSA, but when I did the kit, these items were very hard to find.
@@8mmmauserman Thanks. Do you happen to know what's the best M16A1 upper on the current market?
@@usernamehhhs4540 Best, I don't have experience. If I was to get one, I'd go with PSA/H&R. H&R is under PSA now.
Lol..height over bore is a myth ..I mean how there selling ,2 12 mounts
Myth in that it doesn't matter with training
If you’re going to be shooting more, comfort is still relevant
@@8mmmauserman Having shot my retro-ish AR with the carry handle mounted optic, I actually found it quite comfortable. While I don’t have a solid cheek weld and have more of a chin weld, on the flip side my head is in a much more upright and natural position rather than scrunched down. So it’s kind of a give or take, honestly.
It's not really a myth but not as relevant as some people think. I've had so many people tell me a carry handle mounted optic of any type would be impractical to use because of the height over bore, yet multiple branches of the military used them for 40 years and I've personally used one effectively.
Iron sites, 🫡🪖🇺🇸 good enough for war, good enough for me.
I love my irons too
The acog with the drop reticle is pretty much a cheat code.