Attack of the Member Berries - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Super #17 Arc Part 3
Вставка
- Опубліковано 28 кві 2024
- Remember Freeza and Cell? Remember when you were a child? Remember when you were happy? Me neither. This is hot garbage. It's hot garbage strung together by logic so flimsy it makes Tullece seem as credible as #16. What does that mean? I don't know! I've lost my mind!
Help support the member berries:
/ mistarefusion - Розваги
Turns out that Dragon Ball Z Abridged's Dr. Gero has managed to infiltrate my brain. Whoopsies!
It happens. Can’t blame you though; it just makes sense to add that connection into things. Gives more reason to bring so it’s not just a “Hey, 16 is based on someone Gero is related to. Someone neither we or any of the story’s heroes have met.”
Me too, apparently. I didn’t actually notice you made a mistake until I saw this comment, and then thought reeeeaaally hard about it. TFS has pretty much (unofficially) owned that back story detail by being the only ones to explore it in any meaningful way. Somehow, even the story mode of the game FighterZ didn’t really address it that much, despite the fact that it was integral to his involvement in that story. Maybe Xenoverse references it? But Xenoverse is basically just DB: Member Berries, so I can’t give it much credit for that.
I mean... TFS is awesome and very memorable.
I won't lie, when I think of these characters now, I hear THEIR voices in my head before any of the other dubs, and I find myself quoting the best bits from time to time.
It happens to the best of us my dude, don't fret about it 😅😅😅
oof tfs brain rot ahaha
@@bellowingsilence DBZ: Kakarot brings it up. In an additional scene between Gohan and 16.
“Does the plane have a soul? Is the plane EVIL?” Asking the REAL questions here…
Next LSM video: do planes in dragon ball have souls? Are they evil
yoo mike, nice seeing you
It's just plane evil
@@MarisaResetThank you for this
Because It's the power of Dumb Anime Nonsensecal Magic.
"Frieza died as a cyborg, too, and we've always just kind of ignored that."
Funnily enough, it was Resurrection F that finally remembered that detail.
Same with Cooler actually.
11:13
>It was to have fun with a brand new concept
>Shows Hitler
Gotta love it😂
@@orbboom6119dog whistles are so funny
You aren't really suggesting MistareFusion is a Nazi? He's made comments against Trump, so I highly doubt it. @@MrPsyren99
@@MrPsyren99I don't think it was an intentional statement or something
@@MrPsyren99 thats...not what a dog whistle is haha
On the whole, the villains keeping their bodies sheingans, its worth pointing out that in Dragon Ball Super, Freeza did get to keep his body. But only because he gets to be "tortured" by cute little care bears.
So it seems like the reversal of the deal Goku had. If you were evil enough you get to keep a body just to be eternally punished. Freeza apparently was "that" evil of a person.
Personally, considering that ostensibly what is supposed to happen to the dead is that their soul gets put through literal washing machine, but Frieza's ego was too great to be cleansed and so he managed to retain his identity, reflected in his soul taking on the same appearance as his original body.
I just like how Dabura was sent to Heaven because Hell was to his liking.
It’s like they made a concerted effort to be inconsistent. It’s like two people were working on the same script side by side, but they could only communicate by shadow puppets. It’s like they generated a plotline with ChatGPT, but then ran it through google translate a few times for good measure.
I had the exact same thoughts about Nappa. It's not exactly "satisfying" to see Vegeta kill him again since Vegeta has already been the one to betray him in the past. Then he got a million chances to redeem himself and now he act all high and mighty in front of him.
Poor Nappa deserved better (not really but you get it).
Even if it ended the same way as portrayed here, the pair having any sort of actual conversation wouldn't go amiss.
Does Raditz even get to appear?
@@brandonlyon730Yes, at 7:39 you can see Raditz does Appear when he was Flying few Degrees behind on the Top Left Corner of the T.V. Screen when Cooler was flying,
His Fate was left completely Unknown, I'd liked to believe he Survived but it's left very Ambiguous, so it's a Plot Hole that we're better off not knowing because GT is a Dead Canon now.
It's not like it would even have taken much effort either, just look at what FighterZ manages to do with the two using only the brief prefight one-liners.
@@joseurbina3835 To be fair, not showing the fate of what's effectively a background character in this arc is hardly a plothole.
... Somehow Kaio's planet returned.
(sounds of disrest and disbelief)
At least Super explained how it was brought back.
In a manga special anyway. Yay?
I must have missed the Fortnite announcement they broadcasted 🤧
@@tonycorona8501 At least GT brought it back period, and we're just left to assume it happened at some point.
If we knew about 16 being modeled after Gero’s son, this arc could have the Super 16 arc. You could say that the Shenlong brought 16 back to life after the Cell Saga, but we didn’t see him because he wanted to live in peace. But Gero’s son would probably be in Hell also, so Gero and Myuu could have turned Gero’s son into a Machine Mutant. This would been an easier explanation about how Gero and Myuu making an Artificial 17.
That's a really good idea.
I don't think Shenron can bring back purely artificial beings.
I think you put more thought into this than the writers did.
@@rjante2236 we could say the same thing about Android 8, but we see him at the end of Z, so that could be plausible.
@@Aust51989 Android 8 didn't die canonically.
Your DBD series has taught me a lot about reviewing media in general and of course, Dragonball. Thank you, Lance! Keep being awesome! This episode was great as always.
Thanks! I'm so glad to hear it!
"REMEMBERRR??!!"
God, I love how much wackier DBD has gotten over the years xD
What you said about Super is pretty spot on and something I've felt, especially recently.
The fact that we're only 1 year away from Super's 10th anniversary (yes, we're old) and the most exciting thing we have to look forward to is Frieza again, honestly speaks for itself.
Super is this arc for the duration. Why couldn't it be creative and inspired like the Baby arc? We could have had it made....you know I would have liked not to realize Super is almost a decade. It's bad enough that Dragon Ball Kai is 15 years old and that kids who are fans most likely started with that series. Another reason why the original Dragon Ball should have been refreshed too in one series like how the manga had always been.
The Tournament of Power was the worst about it. Every other episode was basically just some nostalgic walk down memory lane, usually not even for a major purpose. Like the time that Vegeta basically recreates the moment he used the Final Flash on Cell with Jiren. What was even the point of that?
@@TheAzulmagia he even recreated it earlier in his first battle against Magetta, during the U6 arc, albeit with art and animation of much lower quality.
It's not at all, but go off I guess.
@@MJH129 If Frieza isn't, then what is? The other universes we haven't seen going on 6 years now aside from blink or you'll miss it cameos in the movies?
As a kid, i found incredibly convenient that all of the past enemies came back, except for Baby, the only one who at this point would be a threat to everyone who isn't Goku, and would make the plan of trapping him into Hell make more sense if Baby was then sent on Earth. Even Rilldo came back.
You could make the argument that they just had a whole saga of Baby, and felt audience's were too exhausted by him to bring him back too soon.
Maybe he was still alive somewhere and they didn't really kill him.
That's it, Baby was just too embarrassed by his recent loss to come back for a rematch so soon.
Well...
Baby left eggs on countless people through the comos, whose to say all those eggs were taken care of after his defeat...
Ehh it's definitely a plothole but it's one I'm willing to ignore since his arc was like two episodes ago, don't want old villains to take over the appeal of the new ones (however you would say that best)
3:18 That’s a rare moment seeing Pan & Bra in the same scene. It’s shame they never interacted, they could’ve potentially been best friends mirroring somewhat of a bond Goku & Bulma had.
Same for Marron, they could’ve been an awesome fighting trio had Bra & Marron learned to fight.
Marron I can see, since Kuririn is a martial arts whiz, but Bra is all Bulma. I can’t see her in a fight at all.
@@androidsenpai1462what about a cat fight ?
everyone they killed comes back except Raditz, for some reason.
Seriously, the fact that they never brought back Raditz in any capacity was a missed opportunity
Raddiz does appear in crowd shots
What if Raditz became good and didn't come back during the Super 17 arc pt. 53
He's seen on the TV but does absolutely nothing. I don't think he's even seen to be killed like Nappa.
Well, and Bardock. And Gine. But she didn't exist yet.
I think it's a lot funnier thinking that Dr.Myuu and Dr.Gero just built 19 and all the other robots, mechs planes, and vehicles just with all the materials and no supervision. Maybe Cell distracted all the ogres
The Dragonball FighterZ dialogue between Nappa and Vegeta is actually far more interesting than the nonexistent dialogue here.
I wonder why Baby isn’t here when Miyuu and Rild are here.
"No, it can't be! Cell, Freezer, you're dead! I killed you!"
"Yeah, you killed us. So? Where were we gonna go? Detroit?"
The Anime continuity has always been rather inconsistent regarding who gets to keep their bodies or not. But now that you've brought up how #19 came back to life despite the fact he's a robot, including Sergeant Metallic this shows that the writers had no idea how the afterlife works and aren't even consistent with what's already been established.
If this was an episode that came out today I would have immediately assumed it was written by an AI bot.
I mean, if Gero and Myu can build a second #17, why assume the #19 and Metalic in hell are the originals and not likewise just duplicates as well? Pretty much the same goes for any of the tech we see the villains using, if they can build robots in hell, plains would be easy.
One thing about the super hell, or special hell segment of the frieza and cell fight is that its a reference to the final ring of Hell from Dante's inferno, which is essentially like a giant ice lake with humanity's worst frozen in it. I actually kind of like this weird approach taken by GT as a reinterpretation of that concept in a more Dragon Ball way.
More likely it is a reference to the eight frozen hells of buddhism.
You also forgot to mention the part where Cell tries to absorb Goku despite being in his perfect form. It just looks weird and awful seeing perfect cell use his non-existent tail to absorb someone he really shouldn't be able to absorb.
Not to mention, why is Cell having a Vendetta against Goku, shouldn't he suppose to get Revenge against Gohan for killing him, they had one of the greatest Rivalries in the Android Saga from DBZ,
This is literally an Example of Terrible Consistency by Toei Animation's Part.
@@joseurbina3835I'd be pissed if I wanted to explode and then some fuckwad teleported me to a random fish's planet to die with a stranger.
His tail wasn't non-existent though. The nub was always there and it's not hard to assume he could have always still extended it again if he had wanted to. That or if you really need an excuse, we could just assume Dr.Gero, or maybe Dr.Myu, made some upgrades.
@@EmeralBookwise exactly
@@joseurbina3835puppy also shouldn't have that much of a vendetta against Goku
Goku is not the one who killed him Trunks killed him But the storyline because Dragon Ball is ultimately about Goku always has the villains view Goku as There are great enemy who defeated them even though Frieza vegeta and cell We're all defeated by somebody else Two of them losing to Gohan And the other Trunks kills
In fact Majin Buu Is the only main saga art villain of Dragon Ball Z That Goku actually finishes off instead of having someone else do it
In fact it's kind of funny that Vegeta has such a vendetta against Goku considering Vegeta beat Goku in their fight on Earth Like he's straight up had Goku paralyzed on the ground
Out of the little to no interacting between Vegeta and Nappa, I really appreciate how Vegeta actually gives him a chance to just leave.
your frustration with the logic in this story arc makes for the funniest DBD episode. Does the plane have a soul???? Why does the robot suit go to Hell?!
"This has to be a full video by now, right?" Between Mistare's GT Dissection and team four star's GTFS, it just feels like this show is custom-made to break people who care.
My two most anticipated series on UA-cam! Funnily enough, idk if I’d even consider myself a Dragon Ball mega fan. I just love the way these guys talk. Their enthusiasm and humor is infectious
@@shelsilverstein7436 reminds me of the ~2 year stretch where every single big Sonic review channel did Sonic 06 full playthroughs and commentaries. Didn't even care about the game that much, it's just so entertaining watching it be below people's wildest, lowest expectations.
"Why does the Robot Suit go to Hell?" Probably one of the best lines ever, lol
I’m so sorry you have to watch the rest of this arc, but at the same time I am enjoying your psychotic breakdown at the end of this episode lol
Where was Baby who was the last villain to die before hand ?
Something just occurred to me; Perfect Cell retained the power of 17 when he blew up in the otherworld. And then he died for real as Super Perfect Cell, which had the enhancements that 17 and 18 gave him. That's possible two sources of material for a clone of 17 to ultimately come from. It wouldn't surprise me if, somewhere, there was a script or line that had one of the doctors say they took a sample from Cell in order to create Hell Fighter 17.
I will now forever and always remember this arc not for its boring content, but for your incredible (mental) breakdown. My condolences.
Probably the funniest episode you've ever done! I was in stitches 😂
I feel like I have to leave a comment after the mental breakdown you had writing this. Take my genki! You’re doing a great job! Thank you for suffering through this arc for us!
You're doing Kami's work, Mistare.
_ The idea of a god getting sick due to a law of nature being broken is interesting, if they when with that explanation
_ I said this before but this arc could be about Uub vs Kid Buu's will for the control of his body as Hell's opening also awaken Kid Buu memory & personality
_ I do agree that Super has mid ideas executed midly while GT has good ideas executed badly
_ Also it's weird that Baby doesn't return. And if they want to go the nostalgia route (with the anime canon), why not invite grandpa Gohan? His current job is to assist Annin, whose furnace steam guide the soul of the death to the afterlife
It would have been a funny twist if Baby somehow went to Heaven
@@rjante2236 And Dabra teaches him how to mellow out once in a while!
Love the fall to insanity effect this arc seems to have on Lakce
The whole part about Nappa and missed opportunity for interactions was my thought for a long time and something I was looking forward to you discussing. There was so much potential here. Its the same for any series. Multi-Doctor stories and returning companions in Doctor Who for example. It's only natural to have that curiousity in wanting to see how older characters interact with a current character and where they are at. Hell, imagine if in the process Nappa saw that Vegeta had a family, mocked everything he had become and threatened them, leading to Vegeta vaporising him. Frankly, FighterZ did some of the fan service better, and that was in the capacity of limited minimalistic cutscenes..
It‘s wild that the shittiest of the new movies,made decades after the original series; paid more attention to Frieza‘s last moments before death when resurrecting him for that boring snoozefest than the series made by the same staff working on the same property without any breaks in between.
I was worried it wasn't coming out, thankfully made it in time for my break.
4:44 Headcanon time. I always assumed the reason 17 and 18 don't have ki despite just being cyborgs is because when they were being converted by Gero, he ripped some part of their body that gives off ki, like some sort of ki gland, and replaced it with the infinite energy reactor. If S-Cells exist for Saiyans, then maybe there is some sort of body part that produced ki, not that we'll ever get any confirmation of that anymore.
I think it make sense though that their ki is comes from technology so it cant be traced. Goku for example can't sense the "energy" of a spaceship even it obviously runs on some kind of power. So makes sense to call it artificial.
As for Cell, I get the idea that 17 and 18 are what he needs to "evolve" his own body, rather just adding their power to his. It been more akin to his body undergoing a natural metamorphosis
I still don't understand the logic of androids having ki to release energy blasts, and they can even share "genki" to the Genki-Dama but they don't have energy (ki) that can be tracked.
I think a "ki organ" goes against the concept of ki (as I understand the original asian concept of it being a holistic energy flowing through our entire body), but i think it's still reasonable to think that 17 and 18 don't have it bc their powers come from an artificial reactor and not from them developing their natural inner energy that all beings have, hence why it's not detectable. It's not ki, it's just an artificial analogue that can replicate its function, I imagine it's like a small nuclear reactor inside them, I doubt the power that's generating would be detectable as anything close to a ki, despite being energy. Meanwhile 19 and 20 absorb ki to dish it out, and Cell is built as an organic being that has the natural inner workings to generate biological ki since he's made from organic samples of a bunch of martial artists with highly developed Ki energies. If we took it that way it's not that 17 and 18 "don't have ki" exactly, it's just that they only have the probably undetectable amount that a normal human (who doesn't study/develop martial arts) does
Personally, I always assumed that 17 and 18 do have ki, it's just that without all their cybernetic augmentation they'd still be ordinary humans and so they only have ordinary human ki that would measure 5 or less on a scouter. It's such an insignificant amount of ki compared to Goku and friends that trying to sense it is like trying to spot an ant on the sidewalk.
The strange thing is that Bulma says they only have a minor amount of machine parts inside them, and that the bulk of their modification was biological, so I'm not really sure why the infinite energy reactor means they don't have ki, if apparently it just serves to let them fight infinitely, rather than be what powers otherwise normal humans. I guess, maybe they'd be similarly as strong without the reactor, and they would still be able to fight, but Gero modified them with the express purpose of making them incapable of using their ordinary energy reserves (which would be redundant, anyway), just to make them untraceable.
They could make a Yamcha and Tenshinhan cameo helping fight the bad guys, but no.
Poor dolts.
Nappa isn’t the only disappointment. Raditz is also here, and he’s relegated to a Coola like cameo and never interacts with Goku, Nappa, or Vegeta. His brother and comrades have so much potential with him, yet the writers don’t care enough to give him anything. Chiba was in episode 1 as Pilaf!
Vegeta vs. Nappa Rematch - Full Battle AMV
3:03 Goku didn't kill Gero's son, he got killed in a separate conflict long before Goku defeated the Red Ribbon Army.
You are correct. That was just a TFS addition (a bad one if you ask me)
All Toriyama says is that Android 16 died to an enemy bullet.
Goku doesn’t use bullets.
@@TragicKFi disagree, TTS' change improved it. Gave Gero an actual personal motivation.
@@thewerdna Gero had a personal motivation
Losing his damn job to a kid and world domination of the Red Ribbon Army.
@@TragicKF That's not really as sympathetic or understandable as having his son die. I honestly think this addition is a stroke of brilliance that Toriyama should've thought of when making the arc originally. A more tightly-written Android saga could've ended with Goku's son AND Gero's son combining their efforts to defeat Cell, the combination of both the Dragon Team's and the Red Ribbon Army's legacy that grew out of either's control.
@@olserknam Gero isn’t supposed to be sympathetic in the Cell arc lol
Literally nothing about him is worth sympathy
Questioning if the Plane is evil makes me imagine that the plane itself enlisted to the Red Ribbon Army. Like the plane itself truly wanted to hurt people.
Sending genki 🙌 Thanks as always for the videos, great job!
this is the hardest I've laughed DBD in a while. Thanks for suffering for our entertainment
I dont know if i should be engaging with this video. I dont think i should be enabling this destructive behaviour of talking about Dragon Ball GT.
Nobody said anything about stepping _out_ of the Grand Tour!
Planes, vehicles and mechas, oh my!
Skirting on by, into the afterlife, thanks to definitions of clothing having to be loose in order to fit sentients of all shapes and sizes! 😋
4:06 I pointed at the screen and yelled "NO KI!" like Edna Mode.
You know, for an arc that's all about the villains coming back from Hell, you'd think they'd actually make more of a spectacle about it. You can't come up with anything more exciting than Android 19, Pui Pui, Yakon, Nappa, and Goku's sloppy seconds from two arcs ago? And I say that as a fan of Android 19!
It's so weird how we see Babidi on the loose yet his underlings are given more focus.
Fantastic Video Lance! I wonder if the person in charge of Continuity was prioritizing the next arc given all these inconsistencies.
Another excellent dissection! I feel so spoiled, with TFS doing their GT rewatch, I’m getting double the fun retrospectives!
This is a certified MistareFusion classic.
stuff making sense is not what we do here
Very entertaining video as usual
Gotta say I think DBS Broly is one of the best things to ever come out of DB imo. Genuinely great film.
Also Broly might as well be a new character.
I just watched the funimation dub for the first time in years, and in my humble opinion, the hell ice melting thing actually makes sense. Sure, ice here on earth still freezes a living person solid, but unlike ice here on earth, the ice in GT's hell seems to be sentient! When the ice first starts to melt, we can see the various ice particles making various facial expressions, which means the individual particles are sentient.
This is further corroborated by the witch who says that the ice is made from the soles of those who are sent there, which makes it much more plausible that they would still be sentient. She also explains that, if they had frozen him on earth, their plan would have worked perfectly, because as you said here, ice on earth still freezes people solid just fine.
Granted, those two lines could be Funimation-only lines, but the faces on the ice particles are part of the footage and therefore aren't dubbed.
So as far as I'm concerned, the plan didn't work because the ice particles are sentient, and therefore, they didn't WANT to touch Goku's flesh, not that they COULDN'T hold onto it for very long.
As a kid, I assumed characters kept their bodies because they were inhumanly strong, and their strenght let them keep the bodies after death, but still be bound to other world. This was before I saw the specific introduction to how the afterlife was suppose to function in the series (I watched the show reguarly during the Freeza and goku fight, where the ginyus showed up on King Kai's planet)
This is the part of gt i remember most... because it gave me the same headache
I've always figured Toei wants you to think of all the Z movies as part of the animated version's world, and just not think about how that works. Coola here, Garlic Jr in Z, Plan to Eradicate and probably some other stuff.
How did King Kai's planet return? Mister Popo...
Since this continuity established cell can absorb people in his perfect form (somehow), it makes you curious what would’ve happened if he escaped hell with the others and attempted to absorb super 17, and what would’ve happened if he did. And what would that 3 way conflict look like? The characters are dumb a lot so would they be all “hey look Sal is here to help us defeat super 17! I bet you he’s learned his lesson! Let’s trust him!” And he of course predictably absorbs super 17, now would that affect him at all? Is hell fighter 17 designed exactly as 17, with slight differences, would super 17 be too powerful and just blow out of Sal? Would Sal undergo a massive change in form and power, it would be interesting to see how myuu would react to geros earthly creation screwing up their plans, and how would Gero respond.
That one Cell close-up is deeply unsettling
11:15 I totally forgot that the movies are canon in the GT continuity. Meaning Goku and the gang shouldn't be so surprised to see all their past villains again, again
Lets see Frieza came back into plan to eradicate the Saiyans, the other world tournament arc, and in Fusion reborn. So, this would be marked as the 4th time Frieza reappeared to cause trouble.
I believe we also see him watch the fight between Goku & Kid Buu in Hell, but he didn't really do anything there.
Not necessarily (hell, the movies aren't even in continuity with one another), but the movie characters do exist in GT in some way (as we see with Coola here).
Pretty sure they're "immortal" in hell as a method of torture to die over and over again in hell?
Also Dragonball GT: Final Bout had the same case of member berries where over 80% of the playable cast are from Z and might be the start of a trend in DB games where there's multiple versions of goku, 5 of em being GT versions and 1 Z version
You didnt mentioned the part where Super 17 says all the villains Goku killed ? How many did he kill ? As some like Cell and Nappa were killed by someone other than him
Y'know, of the people involved I think it's only Cooler, Yakkon, and Adjutant Black. He had a hand in killing General Rilld, but that was also a group effort.
In that frame with Cooler you can see two figures who are obviously Hell Ogers, did they betray Nemba? Helping the Hell-sinners?
To have an proper arc where characters from hell comes back and some characters have to face the pass again is a neat concept I am suprised they did´t want to do anything with. Now ofcourse it costs a lot to even write for 5 characters to have proper dialoge and such so maybe that´s why most of them are just taken out and dose´t speak.
And yeah I get it it´s stressed out, thier project leader either had no time to look up the roles of Dragonballs hell, they had no notes etc. And it´s clear when Halo no Halo.
They turn to saturday morning cartoon level of danger. "Oh the badguys can return however they like becuse they are the bad guys and don´t follow rules but don´t worry they will get back in hell ready to be reused again, we don´t wanna be accused of destroying someones soul."
Janemba whould have been such a good concept here. Imagine if sure Dr Mieu and Gero planned for Super 17 to do the job but invertedly they unleashed an evil who gets formed thanks to all the sinners escaping, when they kill and do things it grows more powerful, sure you can kill the sinners but later a being is formed out of thier negative energy and the inbalance between heven and earth and Janemba is created, sort of forms all the sinners souls into one including everyone except Super 17 becuse he was built not 17 in hell. So they got a Hellspawn to fight at the same time they got Super 17, there are no team ups, they are split up and well everything is going down.
Hey how dose that sound? Makes as much sense as anything else in this arc.
Other commenters have mentioned this already, but I'll throw my 2 cents in as well; I was hoping you'd mention the scene where Cell briefly absorbs Goku. In particular, I would've enjoyed hearing your reaction to Goku's line where he states that no technique is useful against him once he's seen it or heard about it. The weird part about Goku's claim is that none of Cell's previous victims have willingly escaped an absorption, so there shouldn't be a way for Goku to escape even if he knew Cell can absorb people (something something Majin Boo experience).
Having Nappa come back and be quickly beaten by Vegeta without so much as discussion will never not be lame. At least he fair better than Raditz who only appears as an image on and that's it.
I think Mark made a good point when he said that Goku isn't even Frieza&Cells' arch-nemesis and this isn't the grudge match the show thinks it is because they were killed by other characters.
I really wanted Vegeta to have a proper confrontation with Nappa as a kid. This was obviously not it.
I’m all fairness to the GT staff, him attacking without saying anything to Vegeta would probably be on par with his character. Attack first, ask questions later/never
Here’s my theory about the halo’s in GT: a bill was amended on those in Hell. It was aimed limiting expenditure in the Bureaucracy of the afterlife.
To your point about missing out on Gero and Cell having a relationship, you could even tie Cell into H-Fighter 17’s creation.
Say that Cell can create the 17 Clone the same way he creates the Cell Jrs (which is arguably the least ridiculous thing you could add to this arc) have Cell feel jealous he’s being cast aside for a “throwback,” and actually have Cell team up with Goku to get the both out of Hell & for Cell to get revenge.
It's been so long since I've seen this, I didn't even remember how little of it made any sense.
Seeing the old villians was alotta fun loll
9:42 GHOST NAPPA 👻👻👻
My headcannon about the "androids" KI is that out of the lab, they "dont" have ki, or at least not any more distinct than the average untrained potato couch human so that it could be singled out and detected from a distance greater than point blank, which is negligible. All their original power came from their artificial enhancements, which in my head is also a fixed power level unless updated (just like 16's, or any machinery, you can't train a tank to get more powerful, you need to replace parts with better ones). However, as time passes and they do train/fight, that does develop their biological/spiritual side as well, increase their ki past the "background ki noise".
Nappa is dead? I thought he was a movie producer or something
Imagine Blue dying with a plane capsule in his pocket
I think a relatively simple explanation for 17 and 18 not having ki is that their power comes *entirely* from their engines, and they don't use their human/organic innate ability to generate ki at all. I don't think anything conflicts with that until Super when 17 and 18 somehow grew stronger.
off toppic but I found the "you don't know GT"-Clip way before anything else and it instantly showed me what was wrong with us dubs back then.
For sure.
The best part about Coola’s cameo is that he was on the movie poster for DBZ Movie 12, but never appeared in the movie itself. So it could be that putting in here was to make up for that.
"Naw, I've retired, I'm just here for the photo shoot."
One of the recent guidebooks...or maybe a Toriyama interview, I don't remember which, explained that the human-based Androids do have a small amount of Ki - though that obviously hadn't been established in 1996
Fusion, didn't you know that the various tortures that Goku goes through in this episode are supposed to be inspired by the various planes of Naraka, the 22-layered equivalent to Hell in Budhism. For example, when he's encased in ice, that's based on the plane of Mahāpadma, the "Great Locust" version of Hell.
Yes, I did, but it wasn't really relevant to what I was talking about. When writing scripts, I have to focus on what my point is. I get distracted with enough tangents as it is.
With cell being able to use ki and thr androids not, I always took it that their mechanical parts can't harness ki, especially since thats where their power is coming from, and the mechanical parts being fused with the organic somehow disrupts the natural flow of ki/energy through the body. Prioritizing the machine functions over any orgnanic or bodily ones. If one of their organic parts failed, the machine parts would have to compensate by starting to do what the organic body part used to do.
Likewise with cell, since he is purely biomechanical, the fusion between flesh and biomechanical engineering is more complete, so his biomechanical side is able to process and generate ki because its now working in unission with the biology of the body, instead of simply trying to overtake and conpensate for it. If the bioorganic parts are truly fused with the mechanical, the body can recognize the mechanical aspect as a part of itself and not a foreign intruder into the body, the natural response of the body to fight it is replaced by the body seeing it as a non issue and is compatible to work with the rest of the body, making ki product and usage by all parts of the body possible.
Think this episode legit broke MistareFusion don't think even Super ever left him feeling such dread lmao
The special hell ice could be created specifically so it won't effect living beings, so it won't punish living beings that don't belong there
Just a few things I think can be explained away
1. The androids did have ki, it was just artificial so it couldn't be sensed. If they didn't have ki they wouldn't have been able to shoot ki blasts. Also, while Cell is still artificially created, his "bio-mechanical" body seems to function as an organic one which is why Cell had to suppress his ki to get away from the Z-Fighters
2. For Frieza and Cell, I think they just thought they wouldn't be able to die again since they were already dead. Or in short, they just assumed they were immortal. When it comes to the ice, it should've been written as "a special type of ice native to the afterlife that can only freeze the dead and doesn't work on Goku because he's alive" or something like that in my opinion. Wish they explained it better.
3. I feel like Cooler was either an accident or just an Easter egg of sorts.
"Its clear the writers didnt think this through"...yeah ,that pretty much sums up the entirery of GT as a whole,just a bunch of Toei guys going "hey wouldnt it be cool if blankety blankety blank happened?"
This little tiny mini hell arc would have worked better as a movie...oh wait,they already did that? Then *why* ?,cuz GT,thats why.
I honestly believe people claiming GT is so freaking good have some strain of the stockholm sindrome,with nostalgia being their captors.
When I rewatched this episode recently, I realized my problem with the whole Cell and Frieza bit. Them working together just doesn't make sense in my eyes. They should either hate each other or be rivals over who gets to kill Goku. This mainly stems from how conflicting their personalities and desires are. Frieza is egotiscial and thinks he's the most powerful being, Cell WANTS to be the most powerful. They would be in eternal conflict over that notion alone.
Frieza and Cell working together is just He-man levels of stupidity.
And yet, the fandom (and even some writers) keep pairing them up 😂
Heartwarming: Sal gets eye enlargement surgery so he can look at his enemies more
Could you add this to the Dragon Ball Dissection: The Complete Series and Dragon Ball GT playlists?
Wow, I hadn't realized I hadn't.
Are you Going to do dairanger vs mmpr s2?
Here’s one I think you missed. If the arc says everyone is revived back from Hell including Rildo and Myuu then why isn’t Baby back again? Well the reason is obvious because they just did that arc, but in universe he should come right back again.
I mean, they had no problem bringing back Cell immediately after his death back in Z filler. But I'm sort of glad GT didn't bring back Baby so soon, adding yet another extra pointless rehash to the mix would've made this already terrible arc even worse.
This bit of the arch really broke poor Lance! I've had the idea that this whole Super #17 bit was just a quick placeholder they did while working on the Evil Dragons story, because you can tell it was super rushed and things weren't thought over at all. That in turn might explain the fanservice they did, as they knew this story was going to be a wash, but at the very least having the old bad guys cameo could have satisfied the fans.
The original concept for GT had promise before they abandoned it, the Baby stuff at the very least could be related to the sins of the Saiyan race coming back to haunt the surviving ones, the Evil Dragons was a nice way of addressing how the Dragon Balls had become a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card, and it brought the whole thing back to the original premise of the series, having to collect the seven Dragon Balls while overcoming obstacles in Earth. The Super #17 thing has nothing going for it.
That ranting was so glorious. This arc sucks so bad it completely destroys Lance. They just did not care with this story. Again as I said before it is such a shame because GT actually had a thing going with the previous arc even when they pivoted hard. Here they clearly just given up. This arc if not the lack of views before didn't already definitely had death flags that GT failed....need more broken Lance...figuratively of course.
Aside from the fanservice nature and confused logic of things, if they only have recognizable villains coming out of the hell portal, it really kind of shrinks the scope of the setting if there are absolutely NO baddies in Hell that would want to escape that the heroes have just never met. Be it because they're from other planets or died way in the past etc.
Also missed opportunity to have that rabbit villain from early DB that Goku stuck on the moon come back upset that he was trapped there when Roshi blew it up. I mean that would have just been a fanservice continuity gag but it could have at least made for a fun moment compared to 'Frieza escapes hell again.'
Goku did not kill Gero's son. He was felled by an enemy bullet. That he killed him was an addition by TeamFourStar. Gero is just angered at Goku defeating the Red Ribbon Army which does seem less personal than what Goku did on M2.
The character didn't even exist during that time so no personal backstory even makes sense really.
It would just be some nobody from out of nowhere talking about stuff that no one remembers.
@@gespenst1329 I agree, it did not, just pointing out he still got the (retroactive) lore wrong in this instance. (Still a great video overall).
l think the grattuitous fanservice could just be a follow up decision to what you posited before when the second OP and ED came up. The writers knew the writing was on the wall for this series, and that this was likely going to be the last animated Dragonball production, at least for a good while. So, just to congratulate themselves on a long production lifespan that started in 1986, have a fluffy arc where they dust off old character sketches and the like and play around for a bit before closing it out with the final arc.
Great vid!