To me, real forgiveness is two way. I would want an apology and some kind of retribution from the perpetrator. If not that, it is on me to be understanding but yet realize it is not in my realm to fix it and best to wash hands of them. That will hopefully let them know there are consequences to their behavior. Consequences are reactions opposite of what they are trying to get you to do. That will let them know "it does not work" because they are all about conscious manipulation to control others, namely you. Another example is if they are bullies, praise the opposite behaviors in their victims.
@I was with the master narcissist and went through so much trauma with him and I grew strong enough to walk away and found forgiveness for him and of course not with an apology. I can only smile now because I know we reap what we sew and his time will come .
@@kathleenberg9555 I would agree. This, NPD, has been deemed a mental health matter. Can it be treated? Maybe, but first the person with NPD has to see their issue and from what I’ve seen so far, first hand, it’s not them, it’s everyone else. Imagine that. People in your circle, family and friends even co-workers, backing away and in some cases walking away by the numbers and she still is in denial about the common denominator being her. And this is what we see with the individual I am referring to. It has become quite obvious to me that she is shallow, has no empathy whatsoever for people she has driven away, including her one and only child. She is growing older, and it appears to be getting worse rather than any mellowing due to age. She will never change and I forgive her because it’s better for me than to carry resentment.
Forgiveness is also not forgetting but deliverance for your healing. I went no contact and went through all the storms of narcissism…smear campaign, flying monkeys, but I chose to end it and remove myself from the evil that IS my ex-wife. And guess what? She is still the awful woman she has always been. I am healing and overtime the pain loses its sting. I forgave her because I sought healing.
You explain it so well Dr. C, forgiveness is not about saying what they have done to you is ok, it’s about detaching yourself from their toxicity and moving on in a healthy way with your life.
For 8 years I sat with constant forgiveness. And then I got angry. Very, very, very angry, for 2 years. I had to experience the depths of pain I had suffered through in being married to a covert narcissist, the years of abuse, gaslighting, smear campaigns, and on and on. They are still human, capable of sharing good moments and love. But in my experience, joy is 5% of the time with a narcissist, and the abusive behaviour is the larger part. I am still dealing with anger, and still married. But now I release it for my own health, my happiness is not determined by his behaviour. That is a hard journey, because while marriage isn't easy it not supposed to be abusive and toxic. I don't know that I will stay married for the rest of my life- certainly it is a hellish roller coaster. But- I can forgive, and I can live my own life and find joy in the Lord, in nature, and in the people and things that bring me peace.
I feel that we are in the same boat! I have been married for almost 33 years to a passive aggressive covert narcissist. Seven year s ago we were separated for a year and I had so much peace. But the holidays were approaching and I didn’t want my adult children to have to choose and I got reminiscent. I forgave him, went through counseling (mostly to address his NPD) and have been back with him for seven years now. Many times since, I have wished I had not reconciled. I do not trust him after all and the craziness continues.. Sometimes I feel so badly, I don’t want to be around other people and burden them with my troubles, as I find it hard to fake it when I feel like this. I have continued to trusted in the Lord through all of this and he is giving me strength; but I am now praying for him to give me a clear sign to release me from this marriage. I have many reasons to believe there has been adultery, but I cannot prove it. What is your name? Can we pray for each other? 🙏❤️
How do you forgive when he abused his son. Enabled , emotionally my son felt he was Not good enough - I do blame x for death of my son. Three years today
@@SUSANPOLLARD-h5n When I was a teenager I had an out-of-body experience during an operation. I felt more alive hovering over my body than I ever did here on earth. It was as though I had taken off my costume and had left the stage. The sense of relief was enormous. When I found myself back in my body I thought, “Oh sh:t!” I remember that feeling very clearly. My point is… There is no “death.” There is life in the truest sense of the word waiting for us. I believe we are all here in this earth school to learn particular lessons and evolve our soul. I apologize for offending anyone here who has contrary beliefs. I do not wish to offend. I wanted to say this to you because, in my opinion, such grief and emotion as I hear in your post does not have to be. ☮️ ☮️ ☮️
I’m writing in full support and in the spirit of everything said here. My narcissistic father died nearly five months ago; I was his caretaker for his last three years. I had grown up in fear and anger because of him. After he passed, I felt bad about not being able to grieve without also hardening my heart, or being in thrall to the negativity he had ginned up. I had no idea when or how long it would take for me to reconcile with his legacy and find peace in my heart. But it came quicker than I imagined. Within weeks of his death, the riches of my Catholic faith provided the tool I needed to be free. I prayed and appealed to Divine Mercy, since it was clear to me that I couldn’t muster the forgiveness on my own. But the Lord’s mercy is bottomless, and he forgave where I couldn’t, and I was left feeling somewhat supernaturally unburdened. I don’t mean for this story to be a “should” for you; I don’t mean to proselytize. I only want offer the tool for your own tool belt in case you should need it.
I'm not in the mood to forgive anybody yet, but when forgiveness was explained to me, it was made explicit that forgiveness does NOT require reconciliation. It does NOT require saying what happened was okay. After all, if it was okay, what's there to forgive? It does NOT require saying, "I forgive you." If someone smacks you with a baseball bat, you can choose to forgive them. You aren't saying that hitting someone with a baseball bat is okay. You don't have to stay close enough for them to take another swing. You don't have to say, "I forgive you." You _can_ say, "Stop hitting me with a baseball bat." You can say, "If you hit me again, I will leave." Or you can just leave. Forgiveness and NC fit together just fine. I have zero contact with my ex except for some required legal stuff. Even that I handle at the far end of a very long stick. Chances of that changing are also zero. I'm NC with most of my family, and unless they come to me with some darn sincere apologies, it's going to stay that way. If I choose to forgive any of them, my ex included, I'm not going to break NC to tell them. I'm not even sure I'd call it "forgiveness." I just want them to become nothing more than a bunch of bad memories. Memories I rarely think about, too.
For me, the word "forgive" has too many unrealistic connotations. I like the word you used instead, detatch. I can do that and have in a very healthy way. With years, I can now do this. Healing with therapy and time has made this possible.
I agree. I don’t think I have it in me to forgive him for 42 years of abuse that impacted my children as well as me, but I do want to work on detachment. That is something I feel is achievable for me.
I so appreciate your voice of reason, Doc. Thank you. Detaching from depravity. Priority to my own health. Radical acceptance and knowledge of what I am dealing with. Dignity, Respect, Civility..... and Peace.
In my opinion, I think that there's two types of forgiveness. There is the forgiveness to where the offended lets go of the offense(s), move forward and a relationship can be repaired. Then there's the forgiveness to where the offended allows themselves to let go of the anger, bitterness and resentment and moves on with the understanding that the relationship cannot be repaired. This type of forgiveness enables a person to accept what has happened, to let go, to heal the hurt and the anger and to move forward. It's really hard to let it go but at the end of the day it's about healing deep pain and moving forward. At the end of the day it's about healing, growing, moving forward and living your best life! Dr. Carter you are right!
As an adage goes: To err is human, to forgive is divine. I've been narc free for a year now, thanks to you Dr. C. As what you've said, radical acceptance is the key and forgiveness will emancipate a person from the hurt.
Forgiveness and repentance go hand in hand. Repentance has change in the heart, but the narcissist heart is so subconsciously emotionally stuck in entitlement and control, that it's never going to repent. To them, it's forgive and forget. That's not how forgiveness works. Hurt has being done and not forgotten as trust is the focas.
Anger can be part of the grieving process and stages of grief. As we work through those stages, forgiveness may come as part of acceptance as one of the later stages of grief. I am grieving the loss of a long term, but very abusive marriage, in which I gave my entire self for 46 years, and moving through those stages.
I want to be free of any feelings of anger, at anyone. I must forgive myself first. Working on this daily. Stop hissing when I look in the mirror. Dignity, Respect, Civility. GO Team Healthy!
I just want the unwanted nightmares to stop! I managed to block everything out for years, don’t even remember dreaming. But these days the nightmares just won’t stop!
I say dont carry responsibility for them.Let them own their story.Thats forgiving, because you aren't burdened, and allowing them to own their actions and words. Thats actually a favor for both of you. Highest good.
Thank you for this clarification on forgiveness! My narcissistic spouse of three decades has lied, cheated, given me an incurable STI, verbally/physically abused me and our children, and now he expects us to forgive him. I needed this video. ❤
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If they do not ask for forgiveness denied. If they do ask, deny. call them out and abandon them. worked on everyone of tge toxic reprobates in my life. become indifferent takes time. Thank you Dr.Carter. you helped me heal.
At the end of the day anger, resentment and hate consumes what is good in me. My narcissistic ex constantly told me how negative or hateful I am, I prove him wrong every day. A key thing to remember is that they truly are the most miserable people you will ever meet, they live everyday thinking they are missing out on something and searching for a fix, they don't know gratitude. I created my own closure and live my best life, that whole process took 7 years. Healing to all.
Agreed, forgiveness does not mean that we condone the abhorrent behaviors they have shown us. Forgiveness also does not mean that we FORGET what happened. Narcissists will say, "Oh, I thought you forgave me...blah, blah, blah.". Forgiveness is not forgetfulness. The pains they caused have scarred us, and it's not necessary to forget in order to forgive. Forgiveness is all about not seeking retribution. Let the Lord handle it...and I know that He will handle it. Forgiving anyone who has wronged me sets me free. Free from the burden of carrying all those hurts in my baggage.
Actually, the forgiveness is for your self to release yourself from the narcissist’s control. Remember that forgiveness in simple form is that the a debt is no longer owed.
Forgiveness isn't healthy for unforgivable things. Forgiving people for torturing kids isn't healthy, it's enabling and gaslighting. Disconnecting from sadistic people and ways doesn't require forgiveness.
What a great video. I think the letting go of anger is a process.,I think we have to get the anger and resentment out first. After a period of time,hopefully we get to the point of saying it’s enough, we are sick of having this toxic negativity in our life. Then,for me,at least, I dismiss it from my life. “Detaching from evil”- this is a great motto.
I appreciate how you said 1. "after you examine the evidence" and 2. "eliminate bitterness and hate". And the clarified the difference between "assertiveness" and "aggressiveness" ... thank you.
You payed it forward, my community rules, you folks save my soul, plus yes , the light , forgive me , for turning ugly, thank you Dear Lord , for my struggles, I'm with go team healthy, my Doctor, shares peace and harmony, you did this Lord, you or here, watchin, we like Doctor Carter, plus yes buddy, his guest, his staff, and the folks in the other channel, yes sir, I went to miss Kerry, and , you red bloods or much great help for our well being@@lishmahlishmah
100% like the way you think. I share these videos and tell people that will listen. I keep talking about my healing and who is helping me. Its free, but u must pay attention. Several wonderful coaches on YT.
Telling your story and talking out your experience is so vital for healing. My sister listened to me relay his behavior over many years once I understood better what I was dealing with. It got me to the place where I wanted to explore why I allowed that in my life and the impact on our son. We've both healed so much and neither chooses to have much contact with him. You're right, Dr. C...anger can pop up at times. Giving ourselves grace is imperative. Squashing your anger to make someone else feel comfortable is not healthy, her daughter probably wishes her mom would be angry at how she was treated too. Not vengeful, just acknowledging the abhorrent behavior. That's validating.
This is a companionate presentation on forgiveness. Often this subject is forced on people especially in churches without giving people the time and grace to process and heal from the severe trauma. Thank you Dr. Carter and I’m glad to be a part of Team Healthy. 🙏🏾
Forgiveness doesn't mean reconciliation. I would never forget how i was treated by them but i dont want to hold on to the anger . The relationship is already over at that point.
I have eventually been able to “forgive”(?) all of the narcissists that have passed through my life. I think this is because I have also developed extremely strong boundaries and I no longer have anything to do with them or want to have anything to do with them. So I am free to live my life now. I don’t even want the baggage in my head of thinking about them - or acknowledging their existence. If I have to interact with one I keep it extremely formal and impersonal. It is true that any concept of forgiveness is much more about freeing yourself, than the other person.
The way I’ve detached from my toxic family and others is to forgive them for being human, after all people do tend to do really stupid, and sometimes very cruel, things. I do not forgive or forget their toxic actions; that is part of becoming wiser. I’ve had some people ask for forgiveness (very rarely!) but I just tell them to forgive themselves for being human and to keep working on being a better person.
The question of forgiveness can feel like asking a Holocaust survivor to have the guards over for dinner. Unless it is unavoidable in life situations, no one should be expected to associate with their abuser. It would be heroic if the victim can eventually get past the experience & have a happy life.
Anger is very draining. Unless you're cleaning. Angry cleaning is the best. If not for being angry its just depressing. I really really appreciate you not saying supposed to. I love that so much about you .
I've heard some good stuff over the years: "Resentment is like drinking a poison and expecting the person who hurt you to die. " - 12 Step Recovery " Forgive but don't forget, it's wise to forgive, foolish to forget" - My Grandfather & Mom " I have to work on it daily like my alcoholism/addiction " -12 step "Don't take the bait" My Dad. Thanks for the reminder Dr. Carter. Great video.
Anger and initial feelings of aggression can be the first step to heal; natural human emotions. I don´t think you need to be afraid of these reactions. On the contrary - to supress them can be unhealthy. Accept, and give yourself the right to be upset! Thus it will pass and you can stand up tall.
The anger is a part of the detachment process, breaking the trauma bond. I view it as a wonderful thing when we can FINALLY get angry enough to not forgive (for a while anyway). In these relationships we have forgiven and forgiven and forgiven so many times. When we're finally pushed to the point where we're no longer so quick to forgive the narcissist, that honestly feels like a miracle. I wouldn't beat up anyone for being angry over the narcissistic abuse they've suffered. They're more than capable of forgiveness, and they'll forgive their abuser when they're good and ready.
Interesting. I apologized and apologized and bent and knelt so many times, which is NOT the process of forgiveness. If only ONCE there would have been the contrite response after the confusing display of rage/outrage/emotional vomit.....I would love to have heard the words "I was so wrong, and I am sorry" Please forgive me? But the N never accepted any part of their bad behavior. They simply re-loaded and brought a bright smile and a new edge, with a crevasse for me to fall into (to be blamed again)
@@lisaroy551 Unfortunately I didn't need to hear "I'm sorry" in order to truly forgive. Of course my N is my mother, so I was hardwired to forgive her authentically. I agree that there's a difference between apologizing and forgiving.
Forgiveness is overrated when it comes to abuse. In my mind, I have accepted I was targeted by people who have personality disorders and now that I'm gone from their lives they will keep on targeting more people, as it is in their nature. It was a fatality that I was the one targeted back then. But to forgive them? Not necessary. I just accept their nature and move on.
After listening to you, I scheduled an therapy appointment through “ Better Health,” I had a therapy appointment yesterday and it couldn’t have come at a better time. I’ve have my soon to be ex Covert blocked from all communication for over 3 weeks now. He is in a panic, has contacted my daughter, best friend and left a note on my door requesting to talk to me. They did not respond, nor did I. I gave my counselor the same letter that my husband requested (as part of our divorce agreement) that I send to my lawyer to provide at the time he signed the final contract. Needless to say the empath in me was feeling guilty for cutting him off completely. My therapist said that even though she could not diagnose him as a Covert without seeing him, he was the most selfish and entitled person she had ever come across. MAJOR validation for me! I feel really strong now, and can’t wait for him to get the letter.
Forgiveness is for giving... not for the abuser but more for the abused. Forgiveness releases the victim freeing up energy and blocked potential. Then again, there is value in NOT forgiving. Not forgiving the abuser can help the abused get in touch with a sense of power that was previously suppressed. Not forgiving someone (although it has helped getting the housework done faster) is useful until it's no longer needed...then I let go. Detaching is well said. Thank you Dr C🥰
after 35 years of narcissistic abuse from so many , I can't imagine feeling human ever again. but I do know that I do not want these horrible individuals in my life , & I'm actively fixing that situation.
Likely I will never forgive my family and my ex for how they behaved toward me. I'm working on forgiving myself because I didn't know any better and had to survive the best way I could. The idea of detachment or, as my counselor said, RELEASING works better for me. Forgiveness means they get to keep doing their awful behaviors -- not like they'll ever stop -- and means you continue to be a punching bag. I have turned the other cheek far too many times. No more. I am no longer a punching bag or a doormat. Thank you, Dr. C. Hang in there, survivors. You're going to be okay.
I agree absolutely: I don't forgive my ex, after 24 years of manipulating and lying to me. He'd still be hurting me if I let him. But neither do I wish him evil, or try to add to his misery. Why would I? He does that on his own. Most importantly, wishing bad for him would keep me emotionally invested in him, and I want NO further investment or attachment at all. In fact I wish he'd meet a fabulously wealthy old woman with advanced dementia and no heirs. He'd be set for life, she wouldn't know he was using her, and I'd never hear from him again.
Only the forgiving are qualified to receive forgiveness. That may be because the unforgiving would not receive forgiveness and will continue to do harm. Stay Healthy!!
It's important to remember that forgiveness is something we do for ourselves. Much like boundaries, regardless of what the person wronging us does, it's our principles that matter. The process of forgiving is one of self-work and doesn't need to involve them at all.
Does God forgive the unrepentant? Doesn't He require acts benefiting repentance? You're not likely to get that from a narcissist. I don't think people understand forgiveness. You can achieve radical acceptance and even get to the place where you are no longer tormented by their continued attempts to destroy you and others. God doesn't require you to sign up for more abuse.
For me it's been a case of working out what makes my ex tick (covert narcissist) and why she is the way she is. I can then begin to understand things better, and see the patterns. It does nothing to remove the shame I feel at what I allowed her to reduce me to, and the impact it's had on me and my kids - but it *does* help me to let it go. Once understood, although it makes her behaviour no less reprehensible - it allows me to think it's pointless to hold that anger, in the same way it would be pointless to be angry at a shark for eating all the fish you put it in a tank with, or a lion for eating a prey animal. It's instinctive - it's what they do. They are hardwired and driven to act like that. I guess it's not forgiveness, I'm not sure I have that in me as I feel like I've had fifteen years stolen from me and I'm too old to rebuild now - but it is like acceptance, and a kind of peace made with it.
I was 28 years married to a N spouse, married at 19 and divorced at 47. The final 7 years were just numb. "what I allowed him to reduce me to" resonates so much. Now - years later I have a beautiful life with a loving, giving and reliable "NORMAL" partner for 17 years. But I still come here. I still seek to understand the shrapnel that hit me and affected my grown kids - who were in college when we divorced. Because it did hit them, too. It affects my relationship with them still, though I have forgiven him and wish him well, but I can't forget how he erased me. You are not too old to rebuild. You have instincts now that you did not have then. and you have this wonderful counseling forum - that I wish had been available to me in those pain-filled years before the internet. I wish you well. There is tremendous happiness and normalcy out there. I am on the other side.
@@lisaroy551thanks for taking the time to post that, and sorry you've had to go through all of this as well. It's good to hear stories of hope particularly where you've come out of the other side of this and I'm glad you and your kids are doing well. I'm genuinely not sure I have another committed relationship in me right now, but I guess that's something I can reassess in the future as things start to make more sense, maybe my outlook will change when I feel less drained. I wish you all the best out there, look after yourself.
This was pure gold, Thank you so much for this DR Le's, No resentment or hatred, Being happy and heathy, learning and growing, The best revenge is not to be like that, Indifference and detachment from these two, Peace, love and respect to you, Gus and all, All Glory smiles to the most high :-) smile for miles :-)
I chose forgiveness . I also chose me and to walk away. Forgiveness is like wearing a royal robe of love everyday. Walking in the spirit of love radiates liberty and light. I am free . I am not them cruel and bitter. I am kind and free.
Isn't indifference towards them better than forgiveness? Certain narcissists take forgiveness as a licence to continue to harm you. I know that personally from experience.
The forgiveness is for you. They might not deserve Forgiveness, but you deserve peace. I agree that indifference works, especially when you have to deal with them all the time. It's like a form of self-protection or boundary. 🙏
I feel like they try to make forgiveness a "forgive and forget and stay around for more" type of thing. I think that's more manipulation. What Dr. Carter was describing is simply detaching from depravity. We don't have to act depraved like them. We can live a more graceful life is what I think he is saying.
Thank you for posting. This was beautiful and perfectly worded. I love this way of viewing forgiveness and im more happy that ive already started this stage 💔💕
Once you have healed from the hurt, which can take a very long time due to the severity of a narcissists depravity, THEN you can forgive. In reality your forgiveness helps YOU and gives you peace. This doesn’t mean that you must associate with them in any way or God forbid apologize !!!
I forgive the damaged 6 year old girl who had no idea what was happening to her. I do not forgive the then 44 year old mother of our 3 children who systematically, through dysfunction and unresolved trauma, dismantled our family in 2019. I don't hate her, even though I don't forgive. I feel flickers of pity, but mostly I feel ambivalence and apathy towards her. Who she was at the end is who she really was. I'm clear and calm about my feelings and my knowledge of who she really is. She's the mother of my children yet her toxic dysfunction has bled all over our children. I wish her luck. She's going to need it.
I have a few narcissists in my circle. One in particular is more than I can handle and still be civil. What has happened for me is I set a boundary, in fact there is distance, in miles, that makes boundary setting easier. That distance has given me the ability to forgive her for the way she is. She will never change, never. Giving myself permission to keep my distance for the benefit of my own sanity is my perogative. It's better than lowering myself to being critical of her behavior, to her face.
It took me 10 years before my ex’s voice stopped making the hair on the back of my neck stand up. 26 years married to him. But, then I went & unknowingly, married another narcissist. Now, 22 years later, I’m stuck in “should I stay or should I go” mode. It’s torture. He had a rage attack in early December, throwing the bed pillows at me so hard they actually hurt (it was only 2 weeks after a full hip replacement). Several hours later, he sincerely apologized (why I still believe him, who knows?) & an hour later, he tried to make it my fault. I brought it up yesterday & he had no recollection of the event. I don’t believe he’s forgotten it. But he wants me to believe he’s forgotten it. Life with a narcissist is not only challenging, but confusing, maddening, frustrating……… etc!!
They can hurt you both emotionally and physically and the next day they behave as if it never happened. If you try to talk about it you will be gaslighted or told you’re overreacting.
@ Thank you so much for your kind reply. When I left #1 I felt that I should’ve left when the kids were younger. He’s done so much damage to them. Fortunately, I do have a relationship with them now, but it took years of work to undo all the garbage he fed them about how horrible I’d been. Luckily, no kids with #2. Makes leaving a little easier. I certainly won’t waste another year making my decision. I’ve already got a few pieces in place. I can’t say it’s 95% bad. Probably closer to 25% bad & 75% good, but that’s only because I stay as far away from him as I can. I don’t spend all day with him. I go to the garden & he goes to his gym, so we really only do breakfast & dinner together. After dinner, we retreat to our separate rooms until bedtime. Thanks again for your reply. It helps so much to hear from fellow survivors! I’m glad you were able to get free from your situation. 💖💖💖💖
Forgiveness is such an interesting topic; as an experience forgiveness is second to none. Forgiveness is so liberating. When considering forgiveness, I've found it productive to think about, in this situation, what does forgiveness mean for me? Who am I doing it for? Them or me? There's nothing wrong with forgiving in order to heal. (I call it "healing or something like it.") Something I've learned: forgiving is not letting a person who has injured you away with anything. Forgiving is not accepting you deserved what they did to you. There are so many different approaches: sometimes we turn a page, let go, move on, scale a wall, some call it closure; I'm more a fan of acceptance. Sometimes I've forgiven because life/experience has taught me something I didn't know before - such as a person who injured me had their own issues. Sometimes I've forgiven just because I had the capacity to do so - and man, wasn't that a heady experience.
In my case, I forgave, but I have definitely did not forget. I went completely no contact 8 years ago. I happened to run into them (a couple with N wife) two weeks ago unexpectedly and with my boundaries completely up, I inquired how it was going and the response was very much like a gaslight and history reframe to which I silently listened to with no reaction from myself at all. *I* *know* *the* *truth* *that* *I* *need* *for* *my* *internal* *closure* (i.e. snowballs chance in hell at reconciliation). Now I am back toward radical acceptance and complete no contact... BTW, Dr. Carter, you need to know that you helped me through this big time! I do not think that I can thank you enough! I send my blessings and good wishes.
Have you ever had a burger so AMAZING that you want everyone you know to try it? Even people you’ve just recently met? You just want to see the smile on their face after they taste it. You didn’t make the burger, so you really have nothing to gain or lose. And if they’d prefer to remain hungry, that’s ok, too. You just know that they are missing out. That burger is forgiveness.
Dr C, PLEASE do more videos on those of us that can’t just get away from a bunch of narcissists. As a stepmom, I always did the right thing, and I thought my two stepsons liked me until the older one at age 28, told me to go “F” myself!!!! Please do videos on what do you do when you were misled and you had no idea a person was that evil, and you gave a good portion of your life to them. How do you deal with this kind of horrible narcissistic alienation, and hurt that they have caused because they’re so sick? My husband (their father) is too pathetic to stand up for me. As far as I’m concerned, forgiveness is not an option.
Some of the things that my Ex narcissist husband did to me over many years are unforgivable, and in 40 years I don't think he ever said 'I'm Sorry' once with any meaning behind it.
One point: You forgive for YOURSELF and YOUR mental health - not theirs. It's how you let go and walk away from a no-win situation. And yeah, that's harder than hell. As someone says a couple of posts below, it's about emancipation. Yours - not theirs.
When my narcissist threatened me with a restraining order over a simple disagreement, I told him I'd never forgive him. I still haven't and don't think I ever will.
Here's my take on forgiving the narc. I had a 30-year relationship with a narc husband. Lots of emotional and psychological abuse and neglect. I have forgiven him to the point of setting myself free so that I will not carry or even think of retallion. God says, vengeance is mine! So I leave that to God. I strongly believe we reap what we sow. He will get his, but that's not my responsibility. (Liberation) I also believe I am free to think that he is a despicable person. If that is wrong for me to do, God will settle that with me. In the meantime, I would like to share this statement I read somewhere: "In a world that hasn't been kind, I choose to embrace the happiness I've earned." Author unknown
Forgive? Nah. Perhaps it's only a fine point, but there won't ever be forgiveness from me. What I understood recently is the dismissive, controlling, unkind things he did and said to me while we were together were like error patterns on a math worksheet. He had incomplete and incorrect understanding, with no skills. Therefore he continued to make the same errors over and over. I don't need to figure out where his understanding broke down and I'm not responsible for his making those errors (though he always told me I was). What I can say to myself is, "Oh, he makes repeated errors. I'm not interested in participating in those errors. He can't perceive he made any errors, and so they'll just keep happening. That's boring." I walked away. I no longer make it mean anything about me.. I was the neutral math homework sheet.
My boyfriend has prostate cancer and we are dealibg with his emotional affair with his ex. Hi sais to me "I wont go get treatment and if I die it's on you." He wants me to stop talking about it. These people are monsters. I wont ever forgjve him he did it over and over again.
Forgiveness. *Problem 1* This is a crucial topic for which I would like to see professionals (psychologists) enter churches, synagogues, mosques (etc) and held very in deep classes for pastors, priests (etc) in order to teach them the most accurate discernment between normal relationships and pathological abusive relationships. Even though the major religious institutions have their own graduate psychologists and therapists, etc... unfortunately the level of knowledge of these problems is very low. Sometimes non existent. They really know only 2 situations > normal relationships > violent physical abuse Usually, even though they can have some written documents and information, they have no experience (and they are not trained) for dealing with other abusive and devastating relationships. So, people asking for help mostly receive non-helpful responses. For example, we can receive the wrong explanation of forgiveness, not exactly applicable to our specific cases. (It's not because the pastor or priest doesn't know "the doctrine". It's because they don't know narcissistic abuse)
But their schooling is long and in depth. Why should they not know? They have the whole study of the Bible and Theology. There is a disconnect then. They say how we are to treat one another and our children but they hear confessions of all and watch it all unfold. Laity can be poorly catechized but to those with much are expected more? Interested in your thoughts. 🕯✨️
@well_weathered *Yes, there is a disconnect, definitely.* In my opinion, firstly because they see the relationship like a normal one with some problems. They don't see the fact that it is an abnormal relationship 24/7 Or they don't know how to deal with it. The "how to" part is probably still not taught to our pastors. This is one of the main gaps we have today in the Catholic Church. Again, my personal opinion. There is also a disconnect with this ⬇️ "Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay" (Note for non Cath. > this is not "divorce") . This is leaving = separation. In other words, in today's psychological popular terms it is the No Contact, indeed. And they have been reading it in the Canon Law for years / decades. Meaning, they know that these situations are there. And the situations are there even if the spouse don't leave or can't leave. This is the point they are not informed or trained enough. Last but not least, [btw, this thing was also said by Benedict XVI , in religious terms, still it was said in important interviews] the gap of studies about nullity of marriage in light of new knowledge about personality disorders and the actual immaturity of a person who is unable to make mature promises with a mature Faith. Actually, today we have causes of matrimonial nullity even for less serious reasons than the above ones. Absolutely, there is a serious disconnect about all this.
@@well_weathered I'm very glad it is helpful someway. Another serious disconnect ⬇️ I think the US has associations of lay Catholics that help "marriages in crisis". We have them in Europe and in Italy, so I think it's the same in the US, I mean in the Church or linked to the Church as official Catholic groups. The problem with these "marriage saving programs" is that I've always heard only explanations of how they fix marriages, how they reconcile the spouses, how they teach them to go along again, how to re-learn loving each other, etc. And here I cringe > can you imagine a narcissist who comes in with their wife or husband to do this program?? After a few steps in the group, the narcissist will seem like the good one and the victim will seem the bad one. I've never heard that in these groups they are going to help you discern if your spouse is a narcissist and the danger they will destroy the family more and more. (I've only heard these paths when there is a danger of physical violence, so we have shelters or anonymous refuges if people are in serious physical danger)
I say that you can forgive ... Just do it privately. These people will never change their ways and will take your forgiveness as another opportunity to walk all over you. You give an inch, and they'll take 10 miles, and then you're back to square one with them. Narcs don't seek reconciliation-- they always seek dominance and control. I don't want revenge on my narc in-laws that I have gone no contact with. I wish them no ill will or misfortune to fall on them. I just want to be left alone and left at peace.
It's been 4 years since I went no contact with the narcissist that WAS in my life. They are still trying to hoover me back in. I was the last friend they had. I don't forgive them. Forgiveness is reserved for those who love me and have made a mistake.
❤ Amen you forgive a million times. It’s just what you do. But justice says believe what you see. Believe what you hear. They despise you and seek your harm endlessly.
For me forgiveness is something between me and God. I’m releasing the abuser (my spouse) from a debt to me. They can’t repay so I release them and put it in God’s control. I finally understood that forgiveness DOES NOT equal access. We are separated and I have very tight boundaries.
Forgiveness isn't about tolerating their behavior or even for them, it's for you and with the understanding that these people actually do have a true development disorder. That's the truth. Their behavior very sincerely isn't personal. I always say....they hate everyone equally and without bias. That's the truth. I forgave my ex when I remind myself that rather than look at his outward appearance (a grown man) to remind myself to imagine visually seeing him in his truestest form....a 17-19 year old boy looking back at me. Then I am like....oh yeah, true, he truly is just a 10yr old in a man's body/form. I think these are exactly all the same behaviors....no appreciation, always asking for more, no logic or reasoning, temper tantrums, no boundaries, keep arguing and fighting, always want the last word, bullies, emotionally dysregulated, why the dire need to not be alone and without a mommy or daddy figure, or other people to do things pay for them as they can't do so themselves, multiple little girlfriends/playmates, etc.
My experience was that psychological separation, along with understanding the reason for my husband's dysfunction and applying the behaviors Dr. C teaches, allowed forgiveness to occur without the physical separation. Our relationship changed. He still wasn't well but the toxicity went way down. I was hoping this was also good for him, allowing him some time to heal.
@ After listening to Dr. C's video for today, "Why Won't Passive Aggressive Narcissists Cease Their Antics", I can see that you have a very good chance of being right.
Hopefully the Mother who wants her daughter to get over the broken marriage and 'abuse' sustained by her daughter isn't putting her feeling before her daughter's healing. It isn't easy, especially if it's common knowledge that she was treated 'like dirt'. Forgiveness can't be demanded. She would be better off letting her daughter work through it because grief can be drawn out too long by not recognizing or acknowledging it. 🙏🏼🕯
The more you forgive them, the more they take it for granted.
My N-ex would have no idea I have forgiven. Would probably argue it, if she did. I don’t want to argue.
You leave them or get away from them and then you heal and forgive. There’s so much power in forgiveness
Forgiveness isn’t for them usually they’re not sorry …. Forgiveness is for you
To me, real forgiveness is two way. I would want an apology and some kind of retribution from the perpetrator. If not that, it is on me to be understanding but yet realize it is not in my realm to fix it and best to wash hands of them. That will hopefully let them know there are consequences to their behavior. Consequences are reactions opposite of what they are trying to get you to do. That will let them know "it does not work" because they are all about conscious manipulation to control others, namely you.
Another example is if they are bullies, praise the opposite behaviors in their victims.
@I was with the master narcissist and went through so much trauma with him and I grew strong enough to walk away and found forgiveness for him and of course not with an apology. I can only smile now because I know we reap what we sew and his time will come .
Forgiveness doesn’t mean giving in. It does mean “not seeking revenge”
💯🎯🎯🎯
@@kathleenberg9555 I would agree. This, NPD, has been deemed a mental health matter. Can it be treated? Maybe, but first the person with NPD has to see their issue and from what I’ve seen so far, first hand, it’s not them, it’s everyone else. Imagine that. People in your circle, family and friends even co-workers, backing away and in some cases walking away by the numbers and she still is in denial about the common denominator being her. And this is what we see with the individual I am referring to. It has become quite obvious to me that she is shallow, has no empathy whatsoever for people she has driven away, including her one and only child. She is growing older, and it appears to be getting worse rather than any mellowing due to age. She will never change and I forgive her because it’s better for me than to carry resentment.
Ik would love to take revenge on someone who has done so much harm and gets away with it.
Forgiveness is also not forgetting but deliverance for your healing. I went no contact and went through all the storms of narcissism…smear campaign, flying monkeys, but I chose to end it and remove myself from the evil that IS my ex-wife. And guess what? She is still the awful woman she has always been. I am healing and overtime the pain loses its sting. I forgave her because I sought healing.
You explain it so well Dr. C, forgiveness is not about saying what they have done to you is ok, it’s about detaching yourself from their toxicity and moving on in a healthy way with your life.
@@sheilahogan7014 truth
“Forgiveness is detaching from evil and depravity.” Yes and Amen.
Forgiving them is interpreted as them having you back under their control. Forgive privately but don’t forget.
I agree with Dr Ramani on this one. Forgiving the Narcissist can actually hurt the victim.
@@NatalieG427 Let them go.
You can forgive them without them ever knowing and stay no contact.
@@SuntoryPop927 same
PRIVATELY is the ONLY safe way.
For 8 years I sat with constant forgiveness. And then I got angry. Very, very, very angry, for 2 years. I had to experience the depths of pain I had suffered through in being married to a covert narcissist, the years of abuse, gaslighting, smear campaigns, and on and on. They are still human, capable of sharing good moments and love. But in my experience, joy is 5% of the time with a narcissist, and the abusive behaviour is the larger part. I am still dealing with anger, and still married. But now I release it for my own health, my happiness is not determined by his behaviour. That is a hard journey, because while marriage isn't easy it not supposed to be abusive and toxic. I don't know that I will stay married for the rest of my life- certainly it is a hellish roller coaster. But- I can forgive, and I can live my own life and find joy in the Lord, in nature, and in the people and things that bring me peace.
I feel that we are in the same boat! I have been married for almost 33 years to a passive aggressive covert narcissist. Seven year s ago we were separated for a year and I had so much peace. But the holidays were approaching and I didn’t want my adult children to have to choose and I got reminiscent.
I forgave him, went through counseling (mostly to address his NPD) and have been back with him for seven years now.
Many times since, I have wished I had not reconciled. I do not trust him after all and the craziness continues..
Sometimes I feel so badly, I don’t want to be around other people and burden them with my troubles, as I find it hard to fake it when I feel like this.
I have continued to trusted in the Lord through all of this and he is giving me strength; but I am now praying for him to give me a clear sign to release me from this marriage. I have many reasons to believe there has been adultery, but I cannot prove it.
What is your name? Can we pray for each other? 🙏❤️
In setting them free, you are setting yourself free.
Agreed. And freedom is wonderful.
How do you forgive when he abused his son. Enabled , emotionally my son felt he was Not good enough - I do blame x for death of my son. Three years today
Yes, I will never become like him. I am radio silent not in my head but where I remember our go back is what the narcissist did to our children
@ It is a process. If you cannot, you cannot. I get it. My concern is not for the abuser/tyrant, but for the one with the loss.
@@SUSANPOLLARD-h5n When I was a teenager I had an out-of-body experience during an operation. I felt more alive hovering over my body than I ever did here on earth. It was as though I had taken off my costume and had left the stage. The sense of relief was enormous. When I found myself back in my body I thought, “Oh sh:t!” I remember that feeling very clearly. My point is… There is no “death.” There is life in the truest sense of the word waiting for us. I believe we are all here in this earth school to learn particular lessons and evolve our soul. I apologize for offending anyone here who has contrary beliefs. I do not wish to offend. I wanted to say this to you because, in my opinion, such grief and emotion as I hear in your post does not have to be. ☮️ ☮️ ☮️
I’m writing in full support and in the spirit of everything said here. My narcissistic father died nearly five months ago; I was his caretaker for his last three years. I had grown up in fear and anger because of him. After he passed, I felt bad about not being able to grieve without also hardening my heart, or being in thrall to the negativity he had ginned up. I had no idea when or how long it would take for me to reconcile with his legacy and find peace in my heart. But it came quicker than I imagined. Within weeks of his death, the riches of my Catholic faith provided the tool I needed to be free. I prayed and appealed to Divine Mercy, since it was clear to me that I couldn’t muster the forgiveness on my own. But the Lord’s mercy is bottomless, and he forgave where I couldn’t, and I was left feeling somewhat supernaturally unburdened. I don’t mean for this story to be a “should” for you; I don’t mean to proselytize. I only want offer the tool for your own tool belt in case you should need it.
Unfortunately they tend to see forgiveness as a sign of weakness.
There is strength though in cutting the ties and wishing them farewell.
Exactly..
I sent my mom an email saying I forgive her and then goodbye.
I'm not in the mood to forgive anybody yet, but when forgiveness was explained to me, it was made explicit that forgiveness does NOT require reconciliation. It does NOT require saying what happened was okay. After all, if it was okay, what's there to forgive?
It does NOT require saying, "I forgive you."
If someone smacks you with a baseball bat, you can choose to forgive them. You aren't saying that hitting someone with a baseball bat is okay. You don't have to stay close enough for them to take another swing. You don't have to say, "I forgive you." You _can_ say, "Stop hitting me with a baseball bat." You can say, "If you hit me again, I will leave." Or you can just leave.
Forgiveness and NC fit together just fine. I have zero contact with my ex except for some required legal stuff. Even that I handle at the far end of a very long stick. Chances of that changing are also zero.
I'm NC with most of my family, and unless they come to me with some darn sincere apologies, it's going to stay that way.
If I choose to forgive any of them, my ex included, I'm not going to break NC to tell them.
I'm not even sure I'd call it "forgiveness." I just want them to become nothing more than a bunch of bad memories. Memories I rarely think about, too.
For me, the word "forgive" has too many unrealistic connotations. I like the word you used instead, detatch. I can do that and have in a very healthy way. With years, I can now do this. Healing with therapy and time has made this possible.
I agree. I don’t think I have it in me to forgive him for 42 years of abuse that impacted my children as well as me, but I do want to work on detachment. That is something I feel is achievable for me.
I so appreciate your voice of reason, Doc. Thank you.
Detaching from depravity. Priority to my own health.
Radical acceptance and knowledge of what I am dealing with.
Dignity, Respect, Civility.....
and Peace.
Forgiveness you do for yourself to prevent bitterness . Take the high road …. It’s part of letting go and detaching yourself.
In my opinion, I think that there's two types of forgiveness. There is the forgiveness to where the offended
lets go of the offense(s), move forward and a relationship can be repaired.
Then there's the forgiveness to where the offended allows themselves to let go of the anger, bitterness and resentment and moves on with the understanding that the relationship cannot be repaired. This type of forgiveness enables a person to accept what has happened, to let go, to heal the hurt and the anger and to move forward. It's really hard to let it go but at the end of the day it's about healing deep pain and moving forward. At the end of the day it's about healing, growing, moving forward and living your best life!
Dr. Carter you are right!
I am voting yes for myself and NO for depravity and evil! Thank you dr Carter.
As an adage goes: To err is human, to forgive is divine.
I've been narc free for a year now, thanks to you Dr. C.
As what you've said, radical acceptance is the key and forgiveness will emancipate a person from the hurt.
Forgiveness and repentance go hand in hand. Repentance has change in the heart, but the narcissist heart is so subconsciously emotionally stuck in entitlement and control, that it's never going to repent. To them, it's forgive and forget. That's not how forgiveness works. Hurt has being done and not forgotten as trust is the focas.
To them it's forget for you. They hold on everything tight.
Yes! It's not that I don't forgive, it's that I reject the brand of forgiveness where you come back to the same behavior and pretend nothing happened.
You can forgive AND disengage completely!
Correct.
Anger can be part of the grieving process and stages of grief. As we work through those stages, forgiveness may come as part of acceptance as one of the later stages of grief. I am grieving the loss of a long term, but very abusive marriage, in which I gave my entire self for 46 years, and moving through those stages.
I want to be free of any feelings of anger, at anyone. I must forgive myself first. Working on this daily. Stop hissing when I look in the mirror. Dignity, Respect, Civility. GO Team Healthy!
I just want the unwanted nightmares to stop!
I managed to block everything out for years, don’t even remember dreaming. But these days the nightmares just won’t stop!
I say dont carry responsibility for them.Let them own their story.Thats forgiving, because you aren't burdened, and allowing them to own their actions and words. Thats actually a favor for both of you. Highest good.
Thank you for this clarification on forgiveness! My narcissistic spouse of three decades has lied, cheated, given me an incurable STI, verbally/physically abused me and our children, and now he expects us to forgive him. I needed this video. ❤
If they do not ask for forgiveness denied. If they do ask, deny.
call them out and abandon them.
worked on everyone of tge toxic reprobates in my life.
become indifferent takes time.
Thank you Dr.Carter.
you helped me heal.
Forgive yes - but don’t reconcile if the narcissist won’t reconcile
Don't reconcile at all. You can forgive. You don't have to make contact to do so. Stay no contact & forgive. Take no shit, do no harm
At the end of the day anger, resentment and hate consumes what is good in me. My narcissistic ex constantly told me how negative or hateful I am, I prove him wrong every day. A key thing to remember is that they truly are the most miserable people you will ever meet, they live everyday thinking they are missing out on something and searching for a fix, they don't know gratitude. I created my own closure and live my best life, that whole process took 7 years. Healing to all.
Forgiveness doesn’t condone what they did, forgiveness sets ‘us’ free. Our forgiveness is for us, not them.
Agreed, forgiveness does not mean that we condone the abhorrent behaviors they have shown us. Forgiveness also does not mean that we FORGET what happened. Narcissists will say, "Oh, I thought you forgave me...blah, blah, blah.". Forgiveness is not forgetfulness. The pains they caused have scarred us, and it's not necessary to forget in order to forgive. Forgiveness is all about not seeking retribution. Let the Lord handle it...and I know that He will handle it. Forgiving anyone who has wronged me sets me free. Free from the burden of carrying all those hurts in my baggage.
Yes, forgivness sets off movement in several directions. For the victim, offender & all those effected from it
The last 45 seconds was so needed and encouraging. Dr. C, you really are one of a kind.
Actually, the forgiveness is for your self to release yourself from the narcissist’s control. Remember that forgiveness in simple form is that the a debt is no longer owed.
I struggled with this one too. I ask God to Bless him and the Anger left me! “Love Others..AS YOURSELF.” You have right to Protect yourself 😊❤
Forgiveness isn't healthy for unforgivable things. Forgiving people for torturing kids isn't healthy, it's enabling and gaslighting. Disconnecting from sadistic people and ways doesn't require forgiveness.
Thank you! It's the last sentence of yours that hits the mark, to me.
What a great video. I think the letting go of anger is a process.,I think we have to get the anger and resentment out first. After a period of time,hopefully we get to the point of saying it’s enough, we are sick of having this toxic negativity in our life. Then,for me,at least, I dismiss it from my life. “Detaching from evil”- this is a great motto.
I appreciate how you said 1. "after you examine the evidence" and 2. "eliminate bitterness and hate". And the clarified the difference between "assertiveness" and "aggressiveness" ... thank you.
Glad it resonated!
Paying it forward: I'm trying to think of ways I can pass forward the benefits of watching this channel.
Wow! Great!
22/23 years I didn't know what a narcissist was then I found these channels 💡💡💡oh wow these channels gave me strength
You payed it forward, my community rules, you folks save my soul, plus yes , the light , forgive me , for turning ugly, thank you Dear Lord , for my struggles, I'm with go team healthy, my Doctor, shares peace and harmony, you did this Lord, you or here, watchin, we like Doctor Carter, plus yes buddy, his guest, his staff, and the folks in the other channel, yes sir, I went to miss Kerry, and , you red bloods or much great help for our well being@@lishmahlishmah
100% like the way you think. I share these videos and tell people that will listen. I keep talking about my healing and who is helping me. Its free, but u must pay attention. Several wonderful coaches on YT.
I get a bit of relief when I see their obituaries.
You gave me the giggles. Thank you.
Telling your story and talking out your experience is so vital for healing. My sister listened to me relay his behavior over many years once I understood better what I was dealing with. It got me to the place where I wanted to explore why I allowed that in my life and the impact on our son.
We've both healed so much and neither chooses to have much contact with him. You're right, Dr. C...anger can pop up at times. Giving ourselves grace is imperative. Squashing your anger to make someone else feel comfortable is not healthy, her daughter probably wishes her mom would be angry at how she was treated too. Not vengeful, just acknowledging the abhorrent behavior. That's validating.
This is a companionate presentation on forgiveness. Often this subject is forced on people especially in churches without giving people the time and grace to process and heal from the severe trauma.
Thank you Dr. Carter and I’m glad to be a part of Team Healthy. 🙏🏾
Forgiveness doesn't mean reconciliation. I would never forget how i was treated by them but i dont want to hold on to the anger . The relationship is already over at that point.
So true!
It may take a lifetime..... doesn't matter as long as I'm progressing in the right direction
Agree! Forgiveness is not in the immediate beginning, but at the caboose, at the very end of having processed everything.
I have eventually been able to “forgive”(?) all of the narcissists that have passed through my life. I think this is because I have also developed extremely strong boundaries and I no longer have anything to do with them or want to have anything to do with them. So I am free to live my life now. I don’t even want the baggage in my head of thinking about them - or acknowledging their existence. If I have to interact with one I keep it extremely formal and impersonal. It is true that any concept of forgiveness is much more about freeing yourself, than the other person.
I could go back thinking things will be different this time. Only thing is, things will be different - they'll be worse..
I don't think that is what Dr Carter means at all.
The way I’ve detached from my toxic family and others is to forgive them for being human, after all people do tend to do really stupid, and sometimes very cruel, things. I do not forgive or forget their toxic actions; that is part of becoming wiser. I’ve had some people ask for forgiveness (very rarely!) but I just tell them to forgive themselves for being human and to keep working on being a better person.
The question of forgiveness can feel like asking a Holocaust survivor to have the guards over for dinner. Unless it is unavoidable in life situations, no one should be expected to associate with their abuser. It would be heroic if the victim can eventually get past the experience & have a happy life.
Corrie Ten Boom, specifically.
Anger is very draining. Unless you're cleaning. Angry cleaning is the best. If not for being angry its just depressing. I really really appreciate you not saying supposed to. I love that so much about you .
So good. I love these healthy honest suggestions.
I've heard some good stuff over the years:
"Resentment is like drinking a poison and expecting the person who hurt you to die. "
- 12 Step Recovery
" Forgive but don't forget, it's wise to forgive, foolish to forget" - My Grandfather & Mom
" I have to work on it daily like my alcoholism/addiction "
-12 step
"Don't take the bait"
My Dad.
Thanks for the reminder Dr. Carter. Great video.
"Resentment is like drinking a poison and expecting the person who hurt you to die." Brilliant. I wish I'd heard that about thirty years ago.
thank you so much for all your wisdom Dr. C, God bless you & everyone on their journey to get away to safety :)
Anger and initial feelings of aggression can be the first step to heal; natural human emotions. I don´t think you need to be afraid of these reactions. On the contrary - to supress them can be unhealthy. Accept, and give yourself the right to be upset! Thus it will pass and you can stand up tall.
The anger is a part of the detachment process, breaking the trauma bond. I view it as a wonderful thing when we can FINALLY get angry enough to not forgive (for a while anyway). In these relationships we have forgiven and forgiven and forgiven so many times. When we're finally pushed to the point where we're no longer so quick to forgive the narcissist, that honestly feels like a miracle. I wouldn't beat up anyone for being angry over the narcissistic abuse they've suffered. They're more than capable of forgiveness, and they'll forgive their abuser when they're good and ready.
Thank you
Interesting. I apologized and apologized and bent and knelt so many times, which is NOT the process of forgiveness. If only ONCE there would have been the contrite response after the confusing display of rage/outrage/emotional vomit.....I would love to have heard the words "I was so wrong, and I am sorry" Please forgive me? But the N never accepted any part of their bad behavior. They simply re-loaded and brought a bright smile and a new edge, with a crevasse for me to fall into (to be blamed again)
@@lisaroy551 Unfortunately I didn't need to hear "I'm sorry" in order to truly forgive. Of course my N is my mother, so I was hardwired to forgive her authentically. I agree that there's a difference between apologizing and forgiving.
FORGIVING A CONVERT PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE VINDICTIVE NARCISSISTIC BULLY ALMOST COST ME MY LIFE!!!
FORGIVENESS IS NOT THE ANSWER
Forgiveness is overrated when it comes to abuse. In my mind, I have accepted I was targeted by people who have personality disorders and now that I'm gone from their lives they will keep on targeting more people, as it is in their nature. It was a fatality that I was the one targeted back then. But to forgive them? Not necessary. I just accept their nature and move on.
"I forgo evil in myself and in others" is a mantra I say and that helps me a lot.
"You don't have to 'should' anything." 😮
Forgive them? Have they changed?
After listening to you, I scheduled an therapy appointment through “ Better Health,” I had a therapy appointment yesterday and it couldn’t have come at a better time. I’ve have my soon to be ex Covert blocked from all communication for over 3 weeks now. He is in a panic, has contacted my daughter, best friend and left a note on my door requesting to talk to me. They did not respond, nor did I. I gave my counselor the same letter that my husband requested (as part of our divorce agreement) that I send to my lawyer to provide at the time he signed the final contract. Needless to say the empath in me was feeling guilty for cutting him off completely. My therapist said that even though she could not diagnose him as a Covert without seeing him, he was the most selfish and entitled person she had ever come across. MAJOR validation for me! I feel really strong now, and can’t wait for him to get the letter.
Forgiveness is for giving... not for the abuser but more for the abused. Forgiveness releases the victim freeing up energy and blocked potential. Then again, there is value in NOT forgiving. Not forgiving the abuser can help the abused get in touch with a sense of power that was previously suppressed. Not forgiving someone (although it has helped getting the housework done faster) is useful until it's no longer needed...then I let go. Detaching is well said. Thank you Dr C🥰
after 35 years of narcissistic abuse from so many , I can't imagine feeling human ever again.
but I do know that I do not want these horrible individuals in my life , & I'm actively fixing that situation.
Likely I will never forgive my family and my ex for how they behaved toward me. I'm working on forgiving myself because I didn't know any better and had to survive the best way I could. The idea of detachment or, as my counselor said, RELEASING works better for me. Forgiveness means they get to keep doing their awful behaviors -- not like they'll ever stop -- and means you continue to be a punching bag. I have turned the other cheek far too many times. No more. I am no longer a punching bag or a doormat.
Thank you, Dr. C. Hang in there, survivors. You're going to be okay.
Thank you for making these videos and walking along side us. ❤ They have been beyond helpful.
You are so welcome!
I agree absolutely: I don't forgive my ex, after 24 years of manipulating and lying to me. He'd still be hurting me if I let him. But neither do I wish him evil, or try to add to his misery. Why would I? He does that on his own. Most importantly, wishing bad for him would keep me emotionally invested in him, and I want NO further investment or attachment at all. In fact I wish he'd meet a fabulously wealthy old woman with advanced dementia and no heirs. He'd be set for life, she wouldn't know he was using her, and I'd never hear from him again.
Only the forgiving are qualified to receive forgiveness.
That may be because the unforgiving would not receive forgiveness and will continue to do harm.
Stay Healthy!!
It's important to remember that forgiveness is something we do for ourselves. Much like boundaries, regardless of what the person wronging us does, it's our principles that matter. The process of forgiving is one of self-work and doesn't need to involve them at all.
It's like forgiving Satan.
Exactly. As a Believer there is no duty that I forgive demons.
Does God forgive the unrepentant?
Doesn't He require acts benefiting repentance?
You're not likely to get that from a narcissist.
I don't think people understand forgiveness.
You can achieve radical acceptance and even get to the place where you are no longer tormented by their continued attempts to destroy you and others.
God doesn't require you to sign up for more abuse.
For me it's been a case of working out what makes my ex tick (covert narcissist) and why she is the way she is. I can then begin to understand things better, and see the patterns. It does nothing to remove the shame I feel at what I allowed her to reduce me to, and the impact it's had on me and my kids - but it *does* help me to let it go. Once understood, although it makes her behaviour no less reprehensible - it allows me to think it's pointless to hold that anger, in the same way it would be pointless to be angry at a shark for eating all the fish you put it in a tank with, or a lion for eating a prey animal. It's instinctive - it's what they do. They are hardwired and driven to act like that.
I guess it's not forgiveness, I'm not sure I have that in me as I feel like I've had fifteen years stolen from me and I'm too old to rebuild now - but it is like acceptance, and a kind of peace made with it.
I believe i feel the exact same way.
I was 28 years married to a N spouse, married at 19 and divorced at 47. The final 7 years were just numb. "what I allowed him to reduce me to" resonates so much. Now - years later I have a beautiful life with a loving, giving and reliable "NORMAL" partner for 17 years. But I still come here. I still seek to understand the shrapnel that hit me and affected my grown kids - who were in college when we divorced. Because it did hit them, too. It affects my relationship with them still, though I have forgiven him and wish him well, but I can't forget how he erased me. You are not too old to rebuild. You have instincts now that you did not have then. and you have this wonderful counseling forum - that I wish had been available to me in those pain-filled years before the internet. I wish you well. There is tremendous happiness and normalcy out there. I am on the other side.
@@lisaroy551thanks for taking the time to post that, and sorry you've had to go through all of this as well. It's good to hear stories of hope particularly where you've come out of the other side of this and I'm glad you and your kids are doing well.
I'm genuinely not sure I have another committed relationship in me right now, but I guess that's something I can reassess in the future as things start to make more sense, maybe my outlook will change when I feel less drained.
I wish you all the best out there, look after yourself.
This was pure gold, Thank you so much for this DR Le's, No resentment or hatred, Being happy and heathy, learning and growing, The best revenge is not to be like that, Indifference and detachment from these two, Peace, love and respect to you, Gus and all, All Glory smiles to the most high :-) smile for miles :-)
I chose forgiveness . I also chose me and to walk away. Forgiveness is like wearing a royal robe of love everyday. Walking in the spirit of love radiates liberty and light. I am free . I am not them cruel and bitter. I am kind and free.
Well spoken
Isn't indifference towards them better than forgiveness? Certain narcissists take forgiveness as a licence to continue to harm you. I know that personally from experience.
Honestly, yes.
Agreed
Yes!❤
The forgiveness is for you. They might not deserve Forgiveness, but you deserve peace. I agree that indifference works, especially when you have to deal with them all the time. It's like a form of self-protection or boundary. 🙏
I feel like they try to make forgiveness a "forgive and forget and stay around for more" type of thing. I think that's more manipulation. What Dr. Carter was describing is simply detaching from depravity. We don't have to act depraved like them. We can live a more graceful life is what I think he is saying.
Thank you for posting. This was beautiful and perfectly worded. I love this way of viewing forgiveness and im more happy that ive already started this stage 💔💕
Forgiveness is letting go....leave them.
Always excellent advice. Patience and calm, healthy inward work.
Once you have healed from the hurt, which can take a very long time due to the severity of a narcissists depravity, THEN you can forgive. In reality your forgiveness helps YOU and gives you peace. This doesn’t mean that you must associate with them in any way or God forbid apologize !!!
You make a lot of sense.
Forgiveness doesn't mean you have to be around them.
I forgive the damaged 6 year old girl who had no idea what was happening to her.
I do not forgive the then 44 year old mother of our 3 children who systematically, through dysfunction and unresolved trauma, dismantled our family in 2019.
I don't hate her, even though I don't forgive. I feel flickers of pity, but mostly I feel ambivalence and apathy towards her. Who she was at the end is who she really was. I'm clear and calm about my feelings and my knowledge of who she really is. She's the mother of my children yet her toxic dysfunction has bled all over our children. I wish her luck. She's going to need it.
I have a few narcissists in my circle. One in particular is more than I can handle and still be civil. What has happened for me is I set a boundary, in fact there is distance, in miles, that makes boundary setting easier. That distance has given me the ability to forgive her for the way she is. She will never change, never. Giving myself permission to keep my distance for the benefit of my own sanity is my perogative. It's better than lowering myself to being critical of her behavior, to her face.
It took me 10 years before my ex’s voice stopped making the hair on the back of my neck stand up. 26 years married to him. But, then I went & unknowingly, married another narcissist. Now, 22 years later, I’m stuck in “should I stay or should I go” mode. It’s torture. He had a rage attack in early December, throwing the bed pillows at me so hard they actually hurt (it was only 2 weeks after a full hip replacement). Several hours later, he sincerely apologized (why I still believe him, who knows?) & an hour later, he tried to make it my fault. I brought it up yesterday & he had no recollection of the event. I don’t believe he’s forgotten it. But he wants me to believe he’s forgotten it. Life with a narcissist is not only challenging, but confusing, maddening, frustrating……… etc!!
They can hurt you both emotionally and physically and the next day they behave as if it never happened. If you try to talk about it you will be gaslighted or told you’re overreacting.
@
Thank you so much for your kind reply. When I left #1 I felt that I should’ve left when the kids were younger. He’s done so much damage to them. Fortunately, I do have a relationship with them now, but it took years of work to undo all the garbage he fed them about how horrible I’d been. Luckily, no kids with #2. Makes leaving a little easier. I certainly won’t waste another year making my decision. I’ve already got a few pieces in place. I can’t say it’s 95% bad. Probably closer to 25% bad & 75% good, but that’s only because I stay as far away from him as I can. I don’t spend all day with him. I go to the garden & he goes to his gym, so we really only do breakfast & dinner together. After dinner, we retreat to our separate rooms until bedtime. Thanks again for your reply. It helps so much to hear from fellow survivors! I’m glad you were able to get free from your situation. 💖💖💖💖
Forgiveness is such an interesting topic; as an experience forgiveness is second to none. Forgiveness is so liberating. When considering forgiveness, I've found it productive to think about, in this situation, what does forgiveness mean for me? Who am I doing it for? Them or me? There's nothing wrong with forgiving in order to heal. (I call it "healing or something like it.") Something I've learned: forgiving is not letting a person who has injured you away with anything. Forgiving is not accepting you deserved what they did to you. There are so many different approaches: sometimes we turn a page, let go, move on, scale a wall, some call it closure; I'm more a fan of acceptance. Sometimes I've forgiven because life/experience has taught me something I didn't know before - such as a person who injured me had their own issues. Sometimes I've forgiven just because I had the capacity to do so - and man, wasn't that a heady experience.
In my case, I forgave, but I have definitely did not forget. I went completely no contact 8 years ago. I happened to run into them (a couple with N wife) two weeks ago unexpectedly and with my boundaries completely up, I inquired how it was going and the response was very much like a gaslight and history reframe to which I silently listened to with no reaction from myself at all.
*I* *know* *the* *truth* *that* *I* *need* *for* *my* *internal* *closure* (i.e. snowballs chance in hell at reconciliation). Now I am back toward radical acceptance and complete no contact...
BTW, Dr. Carter, you need to know that you helped me through this big time! I do not think that I can thank you enough! I send my blessings and good wishes.
Have you ever had a burger so AMAZING that you want everyone you know to try it? Even people you’ve just recently met? You just want to see the smile on their face after they taste it. You didn’t make the burger, so you really have nothing to gain or lose. And if they’d prefer to remain hungry, that’s ok, too. You just know that they are missing out.
That burger is forgiveness.
The forgiveness burger 🍔🙃😄
I can not forget the poison, and I can not forgive the poison, but I myself can stay well away from it.
Dr C, PLEASE do more videos on those of us that can’t just get away from a bunch of narcissists. As a stepmom, I always did the right thing, and I thought my two stepsons liked me until the older one at age 28, told me to go “F” myself!!!! Please do videos on what do you do when you were misled and you had no idea a person was that evil, and you gave a good portion of your life to them. How do you deal with this kind of horrible narcissistic alienation, and hurt that they have caused because they’re so sick? My husband (their father) is too pathetic to stand up for me. As far as I’m concerned, forgiveness is not an option.
Some of the things that my Ex narcissist husband did to me over many years are unforgivable, and in 40 years I don't think he ever said 'I'm Sorry' once with any meaning behind it.
Great advice 👍🏻
Forgive yourself for being a victim but go NO contact with these criminal narcissists!
I thought this was a shitty mantra. It's not, do it! They escalate if you don't break! They will always come back until you get them out.
One point: You forgive for YOURSELF and YOUR mental health - not theirs. It's how you let go and walk away from a no-win situation. And yeah, that's harder than hell. As someone says a couple of posts below, it's about emancipation. Yours - not theirs.
When my narcissist threatened me with a restraining order over a simple disagreement, I told him I'd never forgive him. I still haven't and don't think I ever will.
Here's my take on forgiving the narc. I had a 30-year relationship with a narc husband. Lots of emotional and psychological abuse and neglect.
I have forgiven him to the point of setting myself free so that I will not carry or even think of retallion. God says, vengeance is mine! So I leave that to God. I strongly believe we reap what we sow. He will get his, but that's not my responsibility. (Liberation)
I also believe I am free to think that he is a despicable person. If that is wrong for me to do, God will settle that with me. In the meantime, I would like to share this statement I read somewhere:
"In a world that hasn't been kind, I choose to embrace the happiness I've earned."
Author unknown
Forgive? Nah. Perhaps it's only a fine point, but there won't ever be forgiveness from me. What I understood recently is the dismissive, controlling, unkind things he did and said to me while we were together were like error patterns on a math worksheet. He had incomplete and incorrect understanding, with no skills. Therefore he continued to make the same errors over and over. I don't need to figure out where his understanding broke down and I'm not responsible for his making those errors (though he always told me I was). What I can say to myself is, "Oh, he makes repeated errors. I'm not interested in participating in those errors. He can't perceive he made any errors, and so they'll just keep happening. That's boring." I walked away. I no longer make it mean anything about me.. I was the neutral math homework sheet.
My boyfriend has prostate cancer and we are dealibg with his emotional affair with his ex. Hi sais to me "I wont go get treatment and if I die it's on you." He wants me to stop talking about it. These people are monsters.
I wont ever forgjve him he did it over and over again.
5:09 Amen, amen, and amen. Thank you.
I also want to learn and have an open heart.
Forgiveness.
*Problem 1*
This is a crucial topic for which I would like to see professionals (psychologists) enter churches, synagogues, mosques (etc) and held very in deep classes for pastors, priests (etc) in order to teach them the most accurate discernment between normal relationships and pathological abusive relationships.
Even though the major religious institutions have their own graduate psychologists and therapists, etc... unfortunately the level of knowledge of these problems is very low. Sometimes non existent.
They really know only 2 situations
> normal relationships
> violent physical abuse
Usually, even though they can have some written documents and information, they have no experience (and they are not trained) for dealing with other abusive and devastating relationships.
So, people asking for help mostly receive non-helpful responses. For example, we can receive the wrong explanation of forgiveness, not exactly applicable to our specific cases.
(It's not because the pastor or priest doesn't know "the doctrine". It's because they don't know narcissistic abuse)
But their schooling is long and in depth. Why should they not know? They have the whole study of the Bible and Theology.
There is a disconnect then. They say how we are to treat one another and our children but they hear confessions of all and watch it all unfold.
Laity can be poorly catechized but to those with much are expected more?
Interested in your thoughts. 🕯✨️
@well_weathered
*Yes, there is a disconnect, definitely.*
In my opinion, firstly because they see the relationship like a normal one with some problems. They don't see the fact that it is an abnormal relationship 24/7
Or they don't know how to deal with it. The "how to" part is probably still not taught to our pastors.
This is one of the main gaps we have today in the Catholic Church. Again, my personal opinion.
There is also a disconnect with this ⬇️
"Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay"
(Note for non Cath. > this is not "divorce") .
This is leaving = separation.
In other words, in today's psychological popular terms it is the No Contact, indeed. And they have been reading it in the Canon Law for years / decades.
Meaning, they know that these situations are there. And the situations are there even if the spouse don't leave or can't leave.
This is the point they are not informed or trained enough.
Last but not least, [btw, this thing was also said by Benedict XVI , in religious terms, still it was said in important interviews]
the gap of studies about nullity of marriage
in light of new knowledge about personality disorders and the actual immaturity of a person who is unable to make mature promises with a mature Faith.
Actually, today we have causes of matrimonial nullity even for less serious reasons than the above ones.
Absolutely, there is a serious disconnect about all this.
I think my reply is visible by switching in the latest comment section
@@lishmahlishmahThank you. This is something I so appreciate. Something I can refer to, something that can't be dismissed!
🫂 🧡 ✨️🕯
@@well_weathered
I'm very glad it is helpful someway.
Another serious disconnect ⬇️
I think the US has associations of lay Catholics that help "marriages in crisis". We have them in Europe and in Italy, so I think it's the same in the US,
I mean in the Church or linked to the Church as official Catholic groups.
The problem with these "marriage saving programs" is that I've always heard only explanations of how they fix marriages, how they reconcile the spouses, how they teach them to go along again, how to re-learn loving each other, etc.
And here I cringe > can you imagine a narcissist who comes in with their wife or husband to do this program??
After a few steps in the group, the narcissist will seem like the good one and the victim will seem the bad one.
I've never heard that in these groups they are going to help you discern if your spouse is a narcissist and the danger they will destroy the family more and more.
(I've only heard these paths when there is a danger of physical violence, so we have shelters or anonymous refuges if people are in serious physical danger)
I say that you can forgive ... Just do it privately. These people will never change their ways and will take your forgiveness as another opportunity to walk all over you. You give an inch, and they'll take 10 miles, and then you're back to square one with them. Narcs don't seek reconciliation-- they always seek dominance and control.
I don't want revenge on my narc in-laws that I have gone no contact with. I wish them no ill will or misfortune to fall on them. I just want to be left alone and left at peace.
I'm on board with what you say here.
It's been 4 years since I went no contact with the narcissist that WAS in my life. They are still trying to hoover me back in.
I was the last friend they had.
I don't forgive them. Forgiveness is reserved for those who love me and have made a mistake.
❤ Amen you forgive a million times. It’s just what you do. But justice says believe what you see. Believe what you hear. They despise you and seek your harm endlessly.
For me forgiveness is something between me and God. I’m releasing the abuser (my spouse) from a debt to me. They can’t repay so I release them and put it in God’s control. I finally understood that forgiveness DOES NOT equal access. We are separated and I have very tight boundaries.
New to your channel
Such a help! Thank you.
Matt is alive in Boise Idaho ♥️
Forgiveness isn't about tolerating their behavior or even for them, it's for you and with the understanding that these people actually do have a true development disorder. That's the truth. Their behavior very sincerely isn't personal. I always say....they hate everyone equally and without bias. That's the truth. I forgave my ex when I remind myself that rather than look at his outward appearance (a grown man) to remind myself to imagine visually seeing him in his truestest form....a 17-19 year old boy looking back at me. Then I am like....oh yeah, true, he truly is just a 10yr old in a man's body/form. I think these are exactly all the same behaviors....no appreciation, always asking for more, no logic or reasoning, temper tantrums, no boundaries, keep arguing and fighting, always want the last word, bullies, emotionally dysregulated, why the dire need to not be alone and without a mommy or daddy figure, or other people to do things pay for them as they can't do so themselves, multiple little girlfriends/playmates, etc.
Nothing about forgiveness “feels right.” Until after.
My experience was that psychological separation, along with understanding the reason for my husband's dysfunction and applying the behaviors Dr. C teaches, allowed forgiveness to occur without the physical separation. Our relationship changed. He still wasn't well but the toxicity went way down. I was hoping this was also good for him, allowing him some time to heal.
@@Rachel-mz8kohe’s still a narcissist even if you don’t enable him & he’s still seeking supply so watch your back plz
@ After listening to Dr. C's video for today, "Why Won't Passive Aggressive Narcissists Cease Their Antics", I can see that you have a very good chance of being right.
Hopefully the Mother who wants her daughter to get over the broken marriage and 'abuse' sustained by her daughter isn't putting her feeling before her daughter's healing. It isn't easy, especially if it's common knowledge that she was treated 'like dirt'.
Forgiveness can't be demanded. She would be better off letting her daughter work through it because grief can be drawn out too long by not recognizing or acknowledging it. 🙏🏼🕯