When some people say narcissists have empathy, they’re talking about cognitive empathy. Not affective or compassionate empathy. Narcissists read into your emotions. That’s how they manipulate you and learn to push your buttons.
I feel that there is also a close link between narcissist and psychopaths. A psychopath emulates empathy in the way a narcissist would to get what they want. Be it a serial killer even , the way they groom and and then lure their victims. Bunch, Ramirez, etc. No remorse. The narcissist also lacks remorse?
When I was little I didn't know for 21 years, I thought I was the most worthless person in the world, and behind closed doors everyone's mom was mean but nice to everyone else, but I moved out married a great man and he helped me see not everyone is evil, it took me 10 years in our marriage to go no contact with my whole family, but he passed away after 18 years, and they came back, I fell for all the lies again took me 5 years to walk away for good, I heard narc mom died alone in hospice, found a peace I never had, it's just me and my adult kids and grandkids now, I think knowing is better because so many times I felt sucker punched, the strongest person they couldn't run off was my husband!
Thank you for (again) mentioning that autistic people have empathy. I have always felt loads of empathy and very deeply. Now that I'm truly healing, I can connect even better with both people and animals, nature. It's soooo wonderful and rich. And finally I have empathy for myself. What a game changer! ❤️
Your description of the dark empath and love bombing of a person with low self esteem is exactly what happened to me, down to being in grad school at the time. I'm only now digging myself out of the 20 year hole of narc emotional and verbal abuse - being around him literally made me act like a different person - and worse, think that it was my fault or "just me." Led to shame, depression, anxiety, everything you'd expect. Absolutely awful and terribly insidious. THANK YOU Dr. Ramani for the immense help you're providing to victims 🙏
It's what happened to me too. I always said that my ex-husband loved bombed me by pretending to be a paragon of care, empathy, and consent. He built me up after I'd left an abusive relationship, only to tear me down. The switch flipped after we got married. I'm still healing from it.
@@janessah.2534 this. I internalised what they said, and I was triggered out of myself, literally, while they laughed their heads off. It's never not entertaining for the psychopath that he/she is achieving that inner drive to kill you, whichever way they can.
I didn’t realize over-empathy was a thing until recently. I broke that cycle just last month. Thank you, Dr. Ramani for your content-without your channel, I wouldn’t know half of what I do now.
My mother will do the hug thing IF I'm so broken and mentally falling apart and balling my eyes out. By then it's too little too late. Otherwise nope. It's a show, a con, she likes playing rescuer. My ex had close to no empathy, possibly sociopathic. My mother thinks she is so perfect that she could have handled him!
You describe my whole life around the narcs. Which is why I was soo confused. And then always drawn to help and fix I work hard at no longer feeling sorry for people and trying to fix and help. Finally!!!!
Well I'd say no, they get everyone else to treat them very well. They don't actually directly look after themselves. Even when it'd be far easier to do so (which is most of the time). Apart from that, yes, they are very sensitive towards their own pain (and want someone else to feel it instead of them).
What I witness with my parents is that they are able to show compassion and empathy when witnessing or hearing about situations in which they are not involved. However, when they are involved, their "thing" (selfishness, grandiosity, immaturity, or whatever it is) innoculates them from any possibility of feeling responsible for the problems they contribute to. And as a result, their ability to feel empathy is quashed. They can only conceive of the situation through their own self-protecting lens. This must be the cognitive empathy that you describe.
@@ericb8413 I'm sorry to hear that. :( At least we can take comfort in the fact that these people close to us are not psychopaths and experience some of the depth of human feeling.
Wow, so Brilliant. Narcissists are able to LOOK like they have empathy, and it's critical to know what that looks like in different situations. BTW, you look really pretty in this one, Dr. Ramani. You are a beautiful woman.
Yes! I still cringe years later about being _repeatedly_ distracted by people walking behind a friend as she told me about a family member's serious illness. 😧 Yet I'm actually a freakishly _GOOD_ listener most of the time due to hyper-empathy and the ADHD_superpower_ of hyper-focus (plus never wanting anyone to feel as uncared for and invalidated as I did growing up 🥺). It took me a long time to realize that ironically, some of my most frustrating ADHD issues actually HELP me be a good listener. 🙃🙂 Time blindness and executive dysfunction might make me late to meet someone or _UNintentionally_ go on "too long" (in _some_ people's opinion 😟) because I frequently distract mySELF with new thoughts while talking and _literally don't know HOW_ to identify the most important points because EVERYTHING feels important to my brain!. But when someone _else_ is talking about things that matter to them, boy am I present! I just had to learn that it's OKAY to gently interrupt even very emotional stories to explain that I'm hanging on every word but something in the environment is triggering my ADHD and would they mind if we moved or switched places. I feel really bad for my fellow ADHDers who are unfairly judged as uncaring because they struggle with distractibility while listening even though they may be expressing empathy all over the place through acts of service, gifts, or some other love language! 😟 Contrary to the internalized shame and ableism we absorb through the years, _everyone_ has strengths to offer(!), and I believe understanding our own and others' love languages is so important for finding people we're _naturally_ compatible with so things don't feel like so much WORK. Having ADHD and past relationship trauma already adds so much hidden hardship and effort to our lives, and it's OKAY to consciously choose relationships that work better for us and let go of ones that don't. That's what healthy people do! Combatting a lifetime of internalized shame and ableism takes work, but we're worth it! "*You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars: you have a right to be here*." 🌈🌿🍀💐
So good! The parts about how trauma messes with empathy. This gets twisted in narcissistic relationships. The narcissist will abuse / trigger you then immediately demand empathy, then criticize your humanity if the empathy is in any way faulty, then refuse any recalibration or direct apology. Now they have you in scramble mode … maximum fawn, while they judge and criticize.
Sounds like now you recognize that what the person is saying has about as much pull as taking one serious who is yelling out a psyche ward window with their arms flailing about. And secondly, hopefully you will do something to protect yourself, maybe find a way to politely remove yourself from the situation or conversation.
When the term Dark Empathy comes up I am reminded of the time I have seen one person who was very toxic talk to someone about trauma, and at first it was like empathic, but they subtly triggered that person untill they had a flashback and started crying...and the toxic person, instead of comforting the trigger person was just sitting there and watching them in a way I can't describe but was extremely upsetting. It was like they were feeding of the person in the flashback. It was very scary to look at, and not something you can explain to someone else without sounding like you make things up and is unhinged. I wonder if anyone else have seen something like that?
Yes I have unfortunately. I was already in cognitive dissonance bc of her when she decided to keep talking more about traumatic stuff to bring me in lower state. Bringing you to a dark place soothes them and its really creepy. Demonic is a better word for that.
Yes, my mother inlaw noticed that some chimes were upsetting her autistic nephew and when we were the only ones in the room with him she purposely kept hitting the chimes and he was getting so upset I had to yell at her to stop. The smirking smile on her face still haunts me 20 years later… spooky people
And they have no trouble contradicting their previous assessments of you "you are so smart" in later years becomes "You don't know anything. You would fall flat on your face without me" My husband was a narcissist. My mother was a psychopath. So when I met my husband, he seemed nice by comparison. 🙄
So the world really IS run by psychopaths!!! Excellent video! It makes so much sense. Thank you again for a ton of great info... I can totally relate!!
That was wonderful! I am working on myself to curb my endless empathic response to some people in my life. I have truly harmed myself by trying to "help" them. You explained it so well! Thank you!
This is all so complicated/convoluted - in this video AND in real life..I think this is why it's so helpful - when possible - to step back from our relationships for a while and to begin to sort through them one by one...Most helpful, during this time, is going for walks in nature and also talking things out - even into a phone recorder...It's a little of a horror show, adjusting all these settings but these days, it's possible to offset the horror with spending a weekend watching a bunch of videos on the topic, knowing you are not alone
I grew up as the scapegoat in a narc family system, and because of that I am typically able to spot a narcissist a mile away. However, recently in therapy my therapist suggested my partner may be a covert narcissist and it blew my mind. I always felt he was definitely struggling with AVPD, but when I would try to explain how he hurt me, he was so un-empathetic and treated me as the enemy to defeat. However, once he FINALLY understood what I was saying after hours of defensiveness, projection, and yelling, he would then go into a shame spiral that I perceived as empathy. My abusive stepfather was very grandiose with little to no empathy, so seeing my partner actually display empathy made me blind to his true nature. Thank you Dr. Ramani for all you do! You saved my life years ago and here you are again hitting the nail on the head and making me feel so validated
The DEEP principle is an Empath's friend. Learning to set boundaries, learning when to turn it on and how to turn it off made all the difference for me; a journey from lost and bewildered to centered and empowered.
"The Splenda of empathy", that's the perfect description! Kinda looks like it, but's it's a big fake, not real at all. And "weaponized empathy", yes that's it exactly! They understand perfectly well what and why you're feeling something, but they don't actually care, and they use the information to their advantage. Not a normal human at all!
When I left the man-child-ex 5 years ago(after a 30 year marriage and 4kids out of the nest) I finally found the name of his behavior. In that research , I was quite confused in some of it. It was VERY apparent that he is a narcissist, but some things did not fit. It was this topic of dark empathy. It took years of therapy and healing to break through the cognitive dissonance for me to see EVERYTHING clearly and understood his MO with dark empathy (or shallow empathy with the manipulation twist). It is really interesting how a person can not forget certain moments of abuse. They become etched in our memory. I have come to realize it is because it was moments our own inner voice was screaming 'RED FLAG'. I also remember those moments and remember thinking "something very weird is going on" and it left me speechless at that time due to the gaslighting or manipulation that was played. Oh, the games they play with shallow empathy. My ex was a malignant narc at the beginning of the marriage. But something shifted really quick and everything be came covert.
The inconsistency of their empathy creates trust issues, and intention becomes paramount. After years of sucking all of your empathic energy in their direction, they learn just enough to be able to use it to their advantage with you and to look good to others
The first thing my daughter boasted about with her new boyfriend, later turned husband, was how empathic he was. He sent flowers so often (he said) that the florist knew him by name. Even I received flowers in the earlier days of their relationship. Later, after they married, nothing. Not even a text, “Happy Birthday”. I always felt something off about him. I couldn’t describe it, I just felt it. I wanted to feel better about him so I tried more on my end with little to no reciprocation.
Yes, it took me exactly 30 years and three months before I understood I was an over-empath AND that I was married to a covert narcissist! Two and a half years later and after therapy I have changed. I still am empathic but also taking care of myself. Distance between others problems and harsh ship and me and my feeling. Sooo important
This!... 23 year relationship - loving... cruel... loving... cruel... loving... CRUELLLL!!!. 8 months no contact. 65 years old and in the process of rebuilding my entire life - lost everything, even my adult children from a previous narcissistic marriage (healing this with them without me fawning - a slow process) but all worth the painful steps. I take accountability for my part. I'm free. Now love for myself first with stronger boundaries - I don't need to fix anyone anymore :) Love to those still trying to get out. You got this ❤
@@cariabadi-sredni4092 Lots of self love. Forgiving myself and forgiving them. Trusting there's benefit in every situation. . Leaving the door open but with firm boundaries - they're not liking this, hence a very slow process on both ends. Lots of silence (no chasing to fix things) and sitting in (breathing through) the discomfort of not fixing things. Lots and Lots of baby steps while I'm healing my 'fawn' response (learning to get out of my own way). Handing the rest over to The Divine (God / Spirit / Universe. Big hugs. I know it hurts!
@@cariabadi-sredni4092 Lots of self love. Forgiving them and forgiving myself. Learning to not 'chase to fix' (getting out of my own way), so lots of silence and sitting in the discomfort (breathing through) the emotion of wanting to fix it. Lots of patience and continually working on healing my limiting patterns. Keeping the door open with firm boundaries (while I heal my 'fawning response') they're not liking this, hence a slooow process. Nonetheless, we are talking :) No expectations. Handing the rest over to The Divine (God / Universe) and trust there's a reasons and season for everything. Big hugs. I know it hurts ❤
@@cariabadi-sredni4092 My replies keep disappearing? I'll try a third and last time, hope you get this ... Lots of self love. Forgiving them and forgiving myself. Lots of baby steps with continual self work to change my limiting patterns. Lots of silence - learning to get out of my own way and not 'chase to fix' - so sitting in the discomfort (breathing through) the emotion of wanting to fix. Lots of patience and self respect. And always keeping the door open, with firm boundaries - they're not liking this hence a slooow process - but we're talking :) Trusting there's a reason and season for everything. Handing the rest to The Divine (God / Universe). Big hugs. I know it hurts ❤
Dear Ramani, The way you seek language around the subject is amazing. For me this was something that kept me stuck longer, because they do show empathy but a psychologist swore that the big difference between narcissists and non-narcissists is empathy. The wording is so important... So this video is great! Thanks a lot! But it also reminds me of another term, a term that is heavily misused lately because of BeastGames and the people who played in it. They use the term "trauma bonding" as means of explaining how they bonded with eachother during this event. "We went through trauma together, so we are traumabonded" they say on mass scales... When I tried to explain in a comment that a trauma bond doesn't work that way, it's a bond created with the abuser and not other abusees... Well I had a bunch of people tell me that google says that it can also be with other abusees, which my 2 second google search does not say. Either way, there is a misconception which leads to an already misunderstood word to become even more blurred, as they use it to describe something similar yet very different. Could you please make another video explaining trauma bonds? I know you've done so in the past more often, but you know the internet and how clips get buried for new viewers to never see... I feel like society needs to be reminded before the meaning of "trauma bonds" becomes overshadowed by kids saying it means they made friends in negative times rather than people understanding the actual meaning of the negative loop you're stuck in and get shamed for by society.
I'd describe it as "selective empathy". When they know they can get a certain reaction, or suspect to, they choose to act "empathetic". Then you'll say things like "o how nice/thoughtful", "what a great mom" or etc... Giving them supply they crave. And when you don't give them what they want, they can say you aren't empathetic or you're cold or harsh for not being nice to them being nice to you and will play a victim to still attempt to get what they want. However, when their "empathy" is actually needed you'll notice it isn't there, which is very confusing, especially since they gaslight you on top of it. A quick example of my ex: She would tell her 13 year old son who had his first break up the things a parent should say, I was surprised she said the right words actually (already was with her for a year), proud even! Stuff like "emotions are normal", "it's okay to feel sad", "mommy is always there if you need her", etc. This lasted perhaps 1 day. If he'd feel sad or bad and he'd want attention, he was treated like a nuisance and she was always too busy (with herself) to have the time or energy. Things like "emotions are normal" turn into "you're a man, grow some balls", "It's okay to feel sad" into "are you still not over it?" or "mommy is always there if you need her" into "I'm busy", which make him feel bad about feeling bad or even asking for attention... I'll just leave it there, but you get the idea... It hurts knowing I have no power whatsoever to be able to help the kid... Although he's traumabonded anyway, he would not accept anyone to talk bad about his mom. Just like I would have back in the day about my narcissistic dad... The kid was always on my side in arguments though, I miss him 🥲
@@jrs2024 I don't mind :) But I don't think I'm the right person to answer this question of yours... First of, I was never married so I never had any of the legal issues regarding the break up. Second, my break up wasn't pretty either, with lots of doubtful thoughts, insecure emotions and hoovering, I'm not a perfect example. And it depends. Narcissists come in different shapes and sizes and people are unique(ish) as well, so 1 grandiose narcissist might still be different from another grandiose narcissist. Even though there will be definite patterns, the way they manifest/present themself can still greatly differ. I think my best advice I can give is to try to approach it with the mindset of knowing it is going to be chaotic and ugly, and try to be okay with that unchangeable fact. So accepting that there will be things you can't control (outbursts), accept that your reputation will get dragged through the mud, accept that you'll likely get a vengeful ex that knows things about you and will use that to hurt you, accept that the law/society doesn't understand, accept that what you are doing is the right thing to do regardless how your emotions (fear, compassion, hope, etc.) rollercoaster you around. Accept these things, so they can't get to you or make you doubt when they do happen. Mentally prepare for these things, so you don't get stunlocked without knowing how to react the moment they happen. Know that what you are doing is the right thing to do, even if your empathy makes it hard for you to see the other in distress which messes with your emotions and make you doubt if you're really doing the right thing... Ideally... Make a list of things that might happen, or things that might be said upon things you say, and write down a counter/reaction for each of those things, so basically study/practice so you have something to draw upon in the heat of the moment when tensions are high and mindcapacity is low. And try to be okay with the chaos, maybe even try to be welcoming to it, so you don't fear it as much. Also, having backup nearby does wonders since it's a scary process, it helps you stay out of your own head which can get stuck in loops if alone as well as being safer when dealing with someone that might get aggressive since there is a witness. (Though, even after all that, it's still going to mess with you and get to you... Which is something you also have to accept... There is no preventing that or "easy way out". You do these things not to make it easier, you do these things to make it slightly less hard.) Like I always say these days: Give no quarter. I don't know if this was useful in any way, but I hope you'll get there 💚
@@MunkeyKung Ramani’s “radical acceptance”. Omg, thank you for your time & list. I understand the assignment. 👍🏼 Divorce is a break-up, just a hella more expensive, so yay for dodging that bullet. Thanks again. Best wishes to you. 😌
Their empathy seems to be selective, when they feel like giving it, can be withdrawn if you accidentally trigger them and often times feels like its to suck you in to get you to be what they want and believe think and feel how they say you shiuld. It feels sickly when last week they were contemptuous and disdainful!
I liked how you caught yourself on "what's wro...what is upsetting for you". From way too much experience, they definitely view it as finding what they can then accuse you of being wrong for or less than for having vulnerability.
WOW! I feel like every video of yours is a revelation. That the variable empathy is a signature of narcissism is such a concise and accurate way to describe it! Sometimes it took me too long to realize they were a narc because of their strategic/manipulative, cognitive empathy. That was years ago. Now I just stay neutral (with a hint of assuming the worst) until I see consistent empathy. Thank you, Dr. Ramani. I hope you're doing well.
He really seemed to have empathy, he had empathy for babies and children struggling with cleft pallets. Now he wouldn't even think twice about it. This is what caught me up that his decline was due to his traumatic brain injury. I still don't know but I've learned enough now to know he had tendencies.
@@susanmercurio1060Yes, I watched his collab with Terri Cole. It doesn't help if your spouse doesn't think he has a problem. He is fine with the way he is.
Great video. Spot on.. My sister has only empathy for children..but a complete possessed Demon to everyone else. My sister is still stuck emotionally at age 12
Hi. I didn’t watch all of Ramani’s video yet (love her lessons so I will) but your comment caught my attn. Listening to another wonderful therapist, I learned abt “highly sensitive”. This is me. Not good or bad, better or worse, just helpful to learn how to manage being in touch with another’s feelings, without absorbing those feelings which then can debilitate me. Like suddenly I find myself in the same sadness & the rest of my day is sad when it wasn’t my story. Anyway, I don’t know “hyper empathetic” but true empathy is a beautiful quality, just protect your spirit. ❤
Yes. Too much empathy and taking on others responsibility has kept me from making boundaries and flip flopping on decisions. Rather than seeing situations and people in a more accurate light. 💡I would like to work on this.
I am also extremely empathetic. An overabundance of empathy can be an autistic trait. We're certainly magnets for narcs. My therapist has taught me that I have to have boundaries, even with my empathy.
I have myself a covert narcissist. Everybody thinks he’s “such a great guy”. And when I hesitate to agree or don’t know what to say, I’m then told “no, really, he is”. Almost as if I need convincing. He love-bombs everybody who isn’t on his inner circle while treating his family with indifference and/or contempt. Even his own mother who’s always told him how perfect he is. After almost 40 years, the last 3 being ignored and getting the silent treatment, I’m looking forward to finally being free.
The brevity of their version of empathy (in contrast to their "needs") has often left me shocked - and previously numb. Such as when a close friend died - to in turn suffer a quick-fire reaction and absence of any extended engagement. The contrast is also belittling - the acting-out - that all life-events are so much more important and impactful for them. This leaves you feeling confused and unsettled. This results in you ceasing to divulge any meaningful or important information. This can also leave people feeling isolated, vulnerable, insecure. It is to weaken others to that point, to maintain a sense of "control".
I have been contemplating this topic for some time. I realized that a former narcissistic colleague had actually developed the ability to "weaponize" his "empathy". There was no tragedy that he could not turn to his advantage.
10:45 - The effort to understand the emotions put on display around us in a given situation. Body language, tone, pheromones. The effort put in to connect the dots between what one senses from the world around them to the internal universe each of us live in. I think those are the words you needed there.
Blameshifting stands out to me. Words not matching actions. When I look back they really didn't hide the disinterest it was also out there how they didn't hide just saying or asking questions without hiding the lack care. I think this is early mask slipping testing. It's even better if they don't have to work right.
My ex can fake empathy and sincerity so well that people naturally open up and trust him. In reality, he is a deceitful malignant narcissist with two goals in life: get narcissistic supply and harm others.
Their compassion/empathy often feels sarcastic, cruel, and almost like they're enjoying your suffering. It's the "aww, poor you, what happened?" - not out of true concern or wanting to support you, but rather out of some sadistic glee derived from the details of your pain.
You are so great! My husband is really nice at times...you feel he isn't faking. Eye-opener on aspects where we are mistaken. I'm over emphathatic...not towards spouse but my child and other close relations. I should be taking control of myself. Thanks so much
Please do more videos on the “Dark Empath” since they mingle amongst us at a much higher rate 19.3% 😮 Narcissist is only 4-5%. Thank you for your amazing content 🙏
My father is a neglectful narcissist, yet he is very empathetic TOWARDS STRANGERS. He has actively worked for the downtrodden. He has a PhD in social psychology and has great empathy for “the poor”, “the Ukrainian people”, etc. I have seen him cry about the circumstances of people he doesn’t know and that is the ONLY time he cries. I don’t exist to him (to a truly bizarre degree) and neither does anyone else he actually knows, except insofar as it serves him. He could not care less what others think of him.
That is so weird hearing you explain this! I totally get it. My father is a good man, but I feel invisible to him, and he's always running after strangers! He hasn't a bad bone in his body, and I don't think he even realises he does it. It's a man's world, and I am female. He always runs after my brothers.
@@m.j.2939 My mother is EXACTLY like this! Such behaviour is the hallmark of BPD. I am also female, and she completely ignores me in favour of males. In her mind (and her words too 😀) women are just "dolly birds". Ironically her "air-headed dolly bird" daughter though has been the only person to help her with all her problems!
I got sick and had to have surgery that was going to cause “change” to my body… he told his friend “this is going to be so hard for me”. When he talks to acquaintances you would think he was the greatest empathetic kind man ever…. Crazy to me!
This is more mental gymnastics than the narcissist in your life deserves. Your intuition is always correct about bad people. Don't give them time/space in your life. You must have better things to do. They make you feel horrible...that's all you need to know. So, since you can't change them...what do you think your options are?
In essence that's true. They don't make you feel good about yourself, in fact they have you feeling bad all the damn time about who you are. That's all of it in a nutshell!
Except, sometimes getting away from those “bad people” is not so easy. Think, for example, of a young child with a narcissistic parent. How would you suggest that child implement the advice you just gave? Exactly! They can’t. And if you’re a regular on this channel, you’ll also understand how being part of a narcissistic family system often primes you for future abuse by “bad people” because that’s all you’ve ever known. So, while you may have been fortunate enough to have grown up in a loving family where you weren’t subjected to narcissistic abuse on a consistent basis, not everyone was so lucky. While YOU may not need to hear Dr. Ramani’s message, I assure you that there are plenty who do. So, instead of being so judgmental, I would encourage you to exercise some empathy. Lastly, this channel is about narcissism and narcissistic abuse. If you don’t like the subject matter, you’re more than welcome to go somewhere else.
@@anonymousa-uy1hk - LOL. If you are this reactive in the comment sections, you're in for a rough life. (Calmly read my comment again. You are reacting to some things I never said).
This video is so insightful. I especially appreciate you discussing the perceived lack of empathy on the part of people suffering with mental illness or addiction. Thank you for clarifying that in these situations, the person exhibiting the low empathy has no contempt for the other person (my son suffers greatly with OCD and this is spot on). Not so with the narcissist (as I have come to understand about my soon to be ex). This is a very important distinction. Thank you!
This describes my marriage to a highly narcissistic person very well. I would go so far as to say that narcissism's lack of empathy (when the malignant contempt or manipulation isn't there) is for a similar reason to addiction, anxiety issues etc - when people are so pre-occupied with trying to get their own needs met that they have no time to attune to anyone else. My ex husband would of course also show empathy when he wanted something. One of the things I found most difficult in the relationship was the fact that he was also depressed, anxious, addicted and had Type 1 Diabetes, so it was really difficult to work out what his bad behaviour was a result of. Now I know more about narcissism I realise that the contempt and lack of remorse when called out was the clear indicator of his narcissism. It was a minefield and I'm still dealing with the effects.
The NARC is addicted to competing with empathy, attention, and reality. Like a "black hole": so much energy/gravity to themselves, give no light. To Destroy your life is more noble and satifying instead of being "human"! I divorced 2 Narcs in 4 years: '86 then '90. I got love bombed-rebounded by #2, still so "vulnerable" and damaged. I LEARNED, cud write a book, but "I'm Free"♡ Gratitude to Jesus saved my life and "Content"!
Therapists work for me so much, because I knew they were doing it professionally, and only for the time of the appointment. Let me dump honestly, knowing they could take it so impersonally. Knowing I wasn't hurting them gave me permission to be utterly open.
This is helpful, and the back and forth of empathy depending upon how well supplied they are makes sense. We almost have hard days, but when a narc goes from mean to kind depending on how much they are put on a pedestal so they are giving empathy to the peasants is how I have felt it. Still gotta feel better than.
Woke up after discard, gave up 30 years of my life. Strange thing is i wouldnt call myself an empath - im an INTJ. However, there always was some hurdle i had to get over albeit financial, kids health, family members, owner building and so on that were multiyear events. Id also spent much time working on and fixing myself, because.... well some of her points were logical. But didnt make a difference even with reinventing myself. Then i knew it was within her, but i was 100% convinced at some stage she'd sit down to open and honest conversation to workout whatever these issues were that were driving a wedge between us. After all who goes 20+ years without investing at least that? Then golden child got anorexia, separation, hoover and the 5 years later im completely broken and final discard is triggered. I say all this, because even without being an empath 30 years can vanish real quick for the protector, provider and problem solver types.
I appreciate you explaining autism and empathy and mental illness turning inward. I went through a bad depression, and I didnt realize how bad it actually was until someone told me bad news. I was completely numb. I know something bad happened. I know I should feel bad. What is happening? Why don’t I feel anything? Thank goodness the news was broken over text so I could type out what I was supposed to be feeling, and type out the right words. It made me feel like a monster. I dont like feeling numb like that.
It has to be (subconsciously) mentally exhausting for the Narcissist to hear someone express emotion and have to (1) register, "Oh, an emotion or emotional situation, this is the accepted public response. I need to start acting." and (2) simultaneously register, "Aha. This person feels emotion about this. I found a weak spot, and I could exploit this later. Catalog this away in my file for future (ab)use." The narcissist actually goes through this entire process with no emotion of his/her own except maybe a little inner glee that a future weapon has been handed them. Sad. I can have compassion for this empty miserable soul, but no reason for it serves as an excuse.
Eauuu. my mom did this to my husband, always bringing up his dead mother, and how her mom died when she was a child. she was trying to break him down, and manipulate him, and luckily he didn't go for the bait. Just know thy enemy.
I'm grateful for this video. This is what I've been confused about. I can pinpoint times in my life where I thought he showed genuine empathy towards me, and that confused me. Two other things stuck out in this video. The first is: at times he mocked my intelligence. However when he built me up about my intelligence, which was much more than he marked it, it always involved him saying the word I. It was never, you're bright and intelligent, it was always "I've always believed you were intelligent," or "I told you that you can do amazing things." The other thing that stuck out is: while empathy for me seemed low, he seemed to have an abundance of it for others. I know that showing empathy was one way he got people to like him, but I think it hurt him to see other people suffer.... I'm trying to make sense of that. I never exactly know what was real or not, so that's the hard part of it all.
After 59 years of almost daily contact with my mom and siblings, I finally escaped and live alone in a small apartment. I never had a lot of friends, and the ones I chose became abusive when angry. I’m falling apart, mentally, physically, and financially. I don’t recognize myself, minimal empathy (even for myself), no desire to interact with anyone. Agoraphobia is setting in. This life thing is so painful.
Thanks. I've been trying to defend some narcissistic people in my own mind for so long becuase they weren't part of the typical quick-referenced descriptions. It's been easy to say they made me feel a certain way, but it was difficult to place that even mostly on them and not some weakness or failure in me. My mother was narcissistic and I dated more than one person who treated me the same ways. The pattern is a reflection of me. But my choice in partners is a reflection of the narcissistic wounds they gave me, too.
The weird thing I've noticed though is that they do notice when our mood shifts and often pick up on such small things as shifts in face expression but often react with rage instead of compassion. I mean, my last irl interaction with a person who I was severely trauma-bonded to (I won't use the word 'narcissist' since it has become so inflammatory but all the antagonistic traits were there) was him raging at me because I simply got sad & "ruined his weekend" (by making a sad face literally). I took an Uber, cried all the way home & am now doing my best to not look back...
And the reason I was sad was because I already knew at that point that they had already got back together with their ex behind my back and were going to meet the 'ex' after I've left and kept me at arms length for the entire weekend for that reason 😉 And I felt so horrible that I didn't even have to capacity to make any snarky comment. I literally got visibly sad (without saying a single word) and that was enough of a reason for raging at me...
What's even more confusing is the fact that, despite this person being very socially skilled & perceptive, I still often found myself explaining the absolute basics of empathy to, excuse my french, a grown-ass adult...
This is a SOCIOPATH & you’re lucky 🍀 now work on yourself so it never happens s again by breaking that trauma bond with a year of no contact as you overcome obvious cognitive dissonance
This really gets to me. My mom writes about empathy and caring and belongingness and hope and she may have written some texts or journal articles you have read but she would only have empathy for her grad students and they would call her mom and they would tell me how lucky I was but I had no one to turn to and she is exceptionally cruel to me and even when she was mad at her doctoral and post doc students she would project them onto me even calling me by their names, and when she was mad at them she would take it out on me and when she was pleased with herself for doing something really nice for one of them she was also mad at me for not being grateful for whatever she did for whoever as if the thing was done for me. There are a lot of things even worse than just this. I've been outcasted since no one will talk to her about this so she just lays into me with impunity. She's written me out of any wills, downfalls I could have used due to disability. But she is a famous professional "expert" on empathy in academia.
My husband shows no empathy to me, but he talks to everyone else as if he is very empathetic. He tells them how upsets he is and that he adores me… he has NEVER said that to me
I'm finally at the point in my recovery where my first thought reading the thumbnail is, who effing cares. I am just through thinking about them. But thanks for all your fabulous videos.
I agree that if you notice that the person sometimes has empathy, but can be cruel and cold and lack it otherwise, this can actually be the sign you are dealing with a narcissist. That’s why the trauma bonds are so hard to break.
My ex-husband was definitely a psychopath. His empathy was calculated. Especially as he got older. When he was younger, like a teenager, he was probably just a narcissist. As he got older, he became more cruel and unapologetically so. At times, he seemed to be very proud of how cruel he could be to me and other people. He would laugh at compassion and kindness. He was always ready with a checkbook to give donations at public fundraisers. Quick to send flowers or money when someone's relative died. But if it was someone in his own family or me, he would Dole out harsh criticism for having emotion, illness, or any other difficulty. And then every now and then he would surprise you with something that seemed really nice and caring. And he would refer back to that one time he was nice as an indicator that he was a good person and you're just needy or broken. He was horribly cruel. Ready with a checkbook whenever it would make him look good. And then people would wonder how anything negative could be true when he was so magnanimous! All of that was for show. Truly, a horribly abusive and cruel person. A sadist
Over empathy is such a problem for me. I have to wear earbuds running errands because if I hear an interaction like a parent saying no to a child I will empathize with both the parent and the child and probably be bothered by it for way longer than either one of them probably did. I'm trying to remember it's not just the narc that has disordered empathy and that I need to work on that area too, especially because I'm the only one I can change.
When some people say narcissists have empathy, they’re talking about cognitive empathy. Not affective or compassionate empathy. Narcissists read into your emotions. That’s how they manipulate you and learn to push your buttons.
They can also have dark empathy. They know what to do to make you feel really bad so they can manipulate you.
@@lt827Yes, and make you doubt intentions of everyone around.
@@lt827 So true! Whenever I think of a former narcissistic colleague the song "Hit when they're up, hit when they're down" comes to mind.
I feel that there is also a close link between narcissist and psychopaths. A psychopath emulates empathy in the way a narcissist would to get what they want. Be it a serial killer even , the way they groom and and then lure their victims. Bunch, Ramirez, etc. No remorse. The narcissist also lacks remorse?
Ah you get into psychopathy
I don't know what's worse, not knowing you're in a narcissistic relationship or knowing you are!
Knowing for me. Once I knew it wasn't my fault, I couldn't stay anymore. I couldn't convince myself that I loved them anymore.
@jenniferwaidelich642 ignorance is not bliss in this case, but atleast its better than knowing and not being able to get out
Good question
Knowing empowered me to leave…it wasn’t me, and it wasn’t going to change.
When I was little I didn't know for 21 years, I thought I was the most worthless person in the world, and behind closed doors everyone's mom was mean but nice to everyone else, but I moved out married a great man and he helped me see not everyone is evil, it took me 10 years in our marriage to go no contact with my whole family, but he passed away after 18 years, and they came back, I fell for all the lies again took me 5 years to walk away for good, I heard narc mom died alone in hospice, found a peace I never had, it's just me and my adult kids and grandkids now, I think knowing is better because so many times I felt sucker punched, the strongest person they couldn't run off was my husband!
"Empathy melts into a manipulation ' . That's all you need to know. But, you already know that ❤
Thank you for (again) mentioning that autistic people have empathy. I have always felt loads of empathy and very deeply. Now that I'm truly healing, I can connect even better with both people and animals, nature. It's soooo wonderful and rich. And finally I have empathy for myself. What a game changer! ❤️
Your description of the dark empath and love bombing of a person with low self esteem is exactly what happened to me, down to being in grad school at the time. I'm only now digging myself out of the 20 year hole of narc emotional and verbal abuse - being around him literally made me act like a different person - and worse, think that it was my fault or "just me." Led to shame, depression, anxiety, everything you'd expect. Absolutely awful and terribly insidious. THANK YOU Dr. Ramani for the immense help you're providing to victims 🙏
It's what happened to me too. I always said that my ex-husband loved bombed me by pretending to be a paragon of care, empathy, and consent. He built me up after I'd left an abusive relationship, only to tear me down. The switch flipped after we got married. I'm still healing from it.
@@janessah.2534 this. I internalised what they said, and I was triggered out of myself, literally, while they laughed their heads off. It's never not entertaining for the psychopath that he/she is achieving that inner drive to kill you, whichever way they can.
Man she is very very good at what she is saying.
Amen; she breaks down empathy beyond what I ever imagined, but to a T!
I didn’t realize over-empathy was a thing until recently. I broke that cycle just last month. Thank you, Dr. Ramani for your content-without your channel, I wouldn’t know half of what I do now.
Mine I was sobbing and he was ABSOLUTELY COLD toward me . He had no concern, didnt ask what upset me, didn't hold me....NOTHING
That used to make me tremble. It was so cruel.
He used to ask what was the need for crying and get even more angry whenever i cried
It's absolutely chilling the level of coldness they have towards someone in pain! 😨I have experienced this, and it's so lonely and sad.
My mother will do the hug thing IF I'm so broken and mentally falling apart and balling my eyes out. By then it's too little too late. Otherwise nope. It's a show, a con, she likes playing rescuer. My ex had close to no empathy, possibly sociopathic. My mother thinks she is so perfect that she could have handled him!
This was true of my ex as well.
You describe my whole life around the narcs. Which is why I was soo confused. And then always drawn to help and fix
I work hard at no longer feeling sorry for people and trying to fix and help. Finally!!!!
Narcissists are very empathic and sensitive towards their own pain, they treat themselves very well.
Well I'd say no, they get everyone else to treat them very well. They don't actually directly look after themselves. Even when it'd be far easier to do so (which is most of the time). Apart from that, yes, they are very sensitive towards their own pain (and want someone else to feel it instead of them).
I have seen that a lot ,they treat themselves very well
What I witness with my parents is that they are able to show compassion and empathy when witnessing or hearing about situations in which they are not involved. However, when they are involved, their "thing" (selfishness, grandiosity, immaturity, or whatever it is) innoculates them from any possibility of feeling responsible for the problems they contribute to. And as a result, their ability to feel empathy is quashed. They can only conceive of the situation through their own self-protecting lens. This must be the cognitive empathy that you describe.
You just described my sister and her husband. To a T.
@@ericb8413 I'm sorry to hear that. :( At least we can take comfort in the fact that these people close to us are not psychopaths and experience some of the depth of human feeling.
Exactly true of my father. Highly empathetic towards strangers.
Well said. It is part of the confusion we are rapped inside of with such parents. At least now we are getting that clarity 🙌🏻
Wow, so Brilliant. Narcissists are able to LOOK like they have empathy, and it's critical to know what that looks like in different situations. BTW, you look really pretty in this one, Dr. Ramani. You are a beautiful woman.
She is. 😊
When the empathy feels off. Man does that resonate.
Thank you for making the distinction between narcissism vs neurodivergence ❤ I truly appreciate it.
Yes, this is important.
Yes! I still cringe years later about being _repeatedly_ distracted by people walking behind a friend as she told me about a family member's serious illness. 😧 Yet I'm actually a freakishly _GOOD_ listener most of the time due to hyper-empathy and the ADHD_superpower_ of hyper-focus (plus never wanting anyone to feel as uncared for and invalidated as I did growing up 🥺). It took me a long time to realize that ironically, some of my most frustrating ADHD issues actually HELP me be a good listener. 🙃🙂 Time blindness and executive dysfunction might make me late to meet someone or _UNintentionally_ go on "too long" (in _some_ people's opinion 😟) because I frequently distract mySELF with new thoughts while talking and _literally don't know HOW_ to identify the most important points because EVERYTHING feels important to my brain!. But when someone _else_ is talking about things that matter to them, boy am I present! I just had to learn that it's OKAY to gently interrupt even very emotional stories to explain that I'm hanging on every word but something in the environment is triggering my ADHD and would they mind if we moved or switched places.
I feel really bad for my fellow ADHDers who are unfairly judged as uncaring because they struggle with distractibility while listening even though they may be expressing empathy all over the place through acts of service, gifts, or some other love language! 😟 Contrary to the internalized shame and ableism we absorb through the years, _everyone_ has strengths to offer(!), and I believe understanding our own and others' love languages is so important for finding people we're _naturally_ compatible with so things don't feel like so much WORK. Having ADHD and past relationship trauma already adds so much hidden hardship and effort to our lives, and it's OKAY to consciously choose relationships that work better for us and let go of ones that don't. That's what healthy people do! Combatting a lifetime of internalized shame and ableism takes work, but we're worth it! "*You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars: you have a right to be here*." 🌈🌿🍀💐
It goes to show you how truly miserable they are with themselves to have to get joy from other's pain.
It is all about power.
So good! The parts about how trauma messes with empathy. This gets twisted in narcissistic relationships. The narcissist will abuse / trigger you then immediately demand empathy, then criticize your humanity if the empathy is in any way faulty, then refuse any recalibration or direct apology. Now they have you in scramble mode … maximum fawn, while they judge and criticize.
Wow! Identical to my experience that I have been dealing with. It is truly horrid.
Yes they love to spin you around until you get dizzy. It's a way for them to keep the upper hand. The end always justifies the means for them.
Yes they love to spin you around until you get dizzy. It's a way for them to keep the upper hand. The end always justifies the means for them.
Sounds like now you recognize that what the person is saying has about as much pull as taking one serious who is yelling out a psyche ward window with their arms flailing about. And secondly, hopefully you will do something to protect yourself, maybe find a way to politely remove yourself from the situation or conversation.
When the term Dark Empathy comes up I am reminded of the time I have seen one person who was very toxic talk to someone about trauma, and at first it was like empathic, but they subtly triggered that person untill they had a flashback and started crying...and the toxic person, instead of comforting the trigger person was just sitting there and watching them in a way I can't describe but was extremely upsetting. It was like they were feeding of the person in the flashback. It was very scary to look at, and not something you can explain to someone else without sounding like you make things up and is unhinged.
I wonder if anyone else have seen something like that?
Yes I have unfortunately. I was already in cognitive dissonance bc of her when she decided to keep talking more about traumatic stuff to bring me in lower state. Bringing you to a dark place soothes them and its really creepy. Demonic is a better word for that.
You're not unhinged. I had an Uncle do this to me over Christmas.
Yes, my mother inlaw noticed that some chimes were upsetting her autistic nephew and when we were the only ones in the room with him she purposely kept hitting the chimes and he was getting so upset I had to yell at her to stop. The smirking smile on her face still haunts me 20 years later… spooky people
Let’s not forget the part where they then turn around and ask for a favour right after showing you “empathy”. It’s ALL manipulation.
And they have no trouble contradicting their previous assessments of you "you are so smart" in later years becomes "You don't know anything. You would fall flat on your face without me" My husband was a narcissist. My mother was a psychopath. So when I met my husband, he seemed nice by comparison. 🙄
So the world really IS run by psychopaths!!!
Excellent video! It makes so much sense. Thank you again for a ton of great info... I can totally relate!!
Eh, narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths... Yea just about.
That was wonderful! I am working on myself to curb my endless empathic response to some people in my life. I have truly harmed myself by trying to "help" them. You explained it so well! Thank you!
This is all so complicated/convoluted - in this video AND in real life..I think this is why it's so helpful - when possible - to step back from our relationships for a while and to begin to sort through them one by one...Most helpful, during this time, is going for walks in nature and also talking things out - even into a phone recorder...It's a little of a horror show, adjusting all these settings but these days, it's possible to offset the horror with spending a weekend watching a bunch of videos on the topic, knowing you are not alone
I grew up as the scapegoat in a narc family system, and because of that I am typically able to spot a narcissist a mile away. However, recently in therapy my therapist suggested my partner may be a covert narcissist and it blew my mind. I always felt he was definitely struggling with AVPD, but when I would try to explain how he hurt me, he was so un-empathetic and treated me as the enemy to defeat. However, once he FINALLY understood what I was saying after hours of defensiveness, projection, and yelling, he would then go into a shame spiral that I perceived as empathy. My abusive stepfather was very grandiose with little to no empathy, so seeing my partner actually display empathy made me blind to his true nature. Thank you Dr. Ramani for all you do! You saved my life years ago and here you are again hitting the nail on the head and making me feel so validated
The DEEP principle is an Empath's friend.
Learning to set boundaries, learning when to turn it on and how to turn it off made all the difference for me; a journey from lost and bewildered to centered and empowered.
Speachless Thank you, with love from the heart.
Wow, I just learned something new that’s helpful yet is very scary. Thank you. I didn’t know what to do without you.❤❤❤❤❤
"The Splenda of empathy", that's the perfect description! Kinda looks like it, but's it's a big fake, not real at all. And "weaponized empathy", yes that's it exactly! They understand perfectly well what and why you're feeling something, but they don't actually care, and they use the information to their advantage. Not a normal human at all!
Thank you! These videos are really helping me not to get back with my ex and ruin my life!!
When I left the man-child-ex 5 years ago(after a 30 year marriage and 4kids out of the nest) I finally found the name of his behavior. In that research , I was quite confused in some of it. It was VERY apparent that he is a narcissist, but some things did not fit.
It was this topic of dark empathy. It took years of therapy and healing to break through the cognitive dissonance for me to see EVERYTHING clearly and understood his MO with dark empathy (or shallow empathy with the manipulation twist).
It is really interesting how a person can not forget certain moments of abuse. They become etched in our memory. I have come to realize it is because it was moments our own inner voice was screaming 'RED FLAG'. I also remember those moments and remember thinking "something very weird is going on" and it left me speechless at that time due to the gaslighting or manipulation that was played.
Oh, the games they play with shallow empathy.
My ex was a malignant narc at the beginning of the marriage. But something shifted really quick and everything be came covert.
😢 Thank you for sharing. If you don’t mind me asking but no worries if you don’t answer…. how does one even approach divorce to a narcissist? Thanks.
The inconsistency of their empathy creates trust issues, and intention becomes paramount. After years of sucking all of your empathic energy in their direction, they learn just enough to be able to use it to their advantage with you and to look good to others
The first thing my daughter boasted about with her new boyfriend, later turned husband, was how empathic he was. He sent flowers so often (he said) that the florist knew him by name. Even I received flowers in the earlier days of their relationship. Later, after they married, nothing. Not even a text, “Happy Birthday”.
I always felt something off about him. I couldn’t describe it, I just felt it. I wanted to feel better about him so I tried more on my end with little to no reciprocation.
Narcissists do have empathy, but they choose when to use it. Instead of an emotion, it's a performance to them.
A weapon, even.
@@XavierMacX everything is a performance. It’s so strange they won’t break out of it. It’s like they have a hidden audience in their brain.
@rudolphbripple6733 100%
Yes, it took me exactly 30 years and three months before I understood I was an over-empath AND that I was married to a covert narcissist!
Two and a half years later and after therapy I have changed. I still am empathic but also taking care of myself. Distance between others problems and harsh ship and me and my feeling. Sooo important
This!... 23 year relationship - loving... cruel... loving... cruel... loving... CRUELLLL!!!. 8 months no contact. 65 years old and in the process of rebuilding my entire life - lost everything, even my adult children from a previous narcissistic marriage (healing this with them without me fawning - a slow process) but all worth the painful steps. I take accountability for my part. I'm free. Now love for myself first with stronger boundaries - I don't need to fix anyone anymore :) Love to those still trying to get out. You got this ❤
You tell my story!!!
Please tell me, how you got over loosing your adult children.
@@cariabadi-sredni4092 Lots of self love. Forgiving myself and forgiving them. Trusting there's benefit in every situation. . Leaving the door open but with firm boundaries - they're not liking this, hence a very slow process on both ends. Lots of silence (no chasing to fix things) and sitting in (breathing through) the discomfort of not fixing things. Lots and Lots of baby steps while I'm healing my 'fawn' response (learning to get out of my own way). Handing the rest over to The Divine (God / Spirit / Universe. Big hugs. I know it hurts!
@@cariabadi-sredni4092 Lots of self love. Forgiving them and forgiving myself. Learning to not 'chase to fix' (getting out of my own way), so lots of silence and sitting in the discomfort (breathing through) the emotion of wanting to fix it. Lots of patience and continually working on healing my limiting patterns. Keeping the door open with firm boundaries (while I heal my 'fawning response') they're not liking this, hence a slooow process. Nonetheless, we are talking :) No expectations. Handing the rest over to The Divine (God / Universe) and trust there's a reasons and season for everything. Big hugs. I know it hurts ❤
@@cariabadi-sredni4092 My replies keep disappearing? I'll try a third and last time, hope you get this ... Lots of self love. Forgiving them and forgiving myself. Lots of baby steps with continual self work to change my limiting patterns. Lots of silence - learning to get out of my own way and not 'chase to fix' - so sitting in the discomfort (breathing through) the emotion of wanting to fix. Lots of patience and self respect. And always keeping the door open, with firm boundaries - they're not liking this hence a slooow process - but we're talking :) Trusting there's a reason and season for everything. Handing the rest to The Divine (God / Universe). Big hugs. I know it hurts ❤
@@cariabadi-sredni4092 I keep trying to reply but it keeps disappearing?
Yes, empathy is often fawning, I think.
Dear Ramani,
The way you seek language around the subject is amazing.
For me this was something that kept me stuck longer, because they do show empathy but a psychologist swore that the big difference between narcissists and non-narcissists is empathy.
The wording is so important...
So this video is great! Thanks a lot!
But it also reminds me of another term, a term that is heavily misused lately because of BeastGames and the people who played in it.
They use the term "trauma bonding" as means of explaining how they bonded with eachother during this event.
"We went through trauma together, so we are traumabonded" they say on mass scales...
When I tried to explain in a comment that a trauma bond doesn't work that way, it's a bond created with the abuser and not other abusees...
Well I had a bunch of people tell me that google says that it can also be with other abusees, which my 2 second google search does not say.
Either way, there is a misconception which leads to an already misunderstood word to become even more blurred, as they use it to describe something similar yet very different.
Could you please make another video explaining trauma bonds? I know you've done so in the past more often, but you know the internet and how clips get buried for new viewers to never see... I feel like society needs to be reminded before the meaning of "trauma bonds" becomes overshadowed by kids saying it means they made friends in negative times rather than people understanding the actual meaning of the negative loop you're stuck in and get shamed for by society.
Thank you for the definition; I used it wrong. Now “trauma bonding” makes better sense.
I'd describe it as "selective empathy".
When they know they can get a certain reaction, or suspect to, they choose to act "empathetic". Then you'll say things like "o how nice/thoughtful", "what a great mom" or etc... Giving them supply they crave. And when you don't give them what they want, they can say you aren't empathetic or you're cold or harsh for not being nice to them being nice to you and will play a victim to still attempt to get what they want.
However, when their "empathy" is actually needed you'll notice it isn't there, which is very confusing, especially since they gaslight you on top of it.
A quick example of my ex:
She would tell her 13 year old son who had his first break up the things a parent should say, I was surprised she said the right words actually (already was with her for a year), proud even!
Stuff like "emotions are normal", "it's okay to feel sad", "mommy is always there if you need her", etc.
This lasted perhaps 1 day.
If he'd feel sad or bad and he'd want attention, he was treated like a nuisance and she was always too busy (with herself) to have the time or energy.
Things like "emotions are normal" turn into "you're a man, grow some balls", "It's okay to feel sad" into "are you still not over it?" or "mommy is always there if you need her" into "I'm busy", which make him feel bad about feeling bad or even asking for attention...
I'll just leave it there, but you get the idea... It hurts knowing I have no power whatsoever to be able to help the kid... Although he's traumabonded anyway, he would not accept anyone to talk bad about his mom. Just like I would have back in the day about my narcissistic dad... The kid was always on my side in arguments though, I miss him 🥲
😢 Same. If you don’t mind me asking but no worries if you do not want to answer… how does one even approach divorce with a narcissist?
@@jrs2024 I don't mind :)
But I don't think I'm the right person to answer this question of yours...
First of, I was never married so I never had any of the legal issues regarding the break up.
Second, my break up wasn't pretty either, with lots of doubtful thoughts, insecure emotions and hoovering, I'm not a perfect example.
And it depends. Narcissists come in different shapes and sizes and people are unique(ish) as well, so 1 grandiose narcissist might still be different from another grandiose narcissist. Even though there will be definite patterns, the way they manifest/present themself can still greatly differ.
I think my best advice I can give is to try to approach it with the mindset of knowing it is going to be chaotic and ugly, and try to be okay with that unchangeable fact.
So accepting that there will be things you can't control (outbursts), accept that your reputation will get dragged through the mud, accept that you'll likely get a vengeful ex that knows things about you and will use that to hurt you, accept that the law/society doesn't understand, accept that what you are doing is the right thing to do regardless how your emotions (fear, compassion, hope, etc.) rollercoaster you around.
Accept these things, so they can't get to you or make you doubt when they do happen.
Mentally prepare for these things, so you don't get stunlocked without knowing how to react the moment they happen.
Know that what you are doing is the right thing to do, even if your empathy makes it hard for you to see the other in distress which messes with your emotions and make you doubt if you're really doing the right thing...
Ideally... Make a list of things that might happen, or things that might be said upon things you say, and write down a counter/reaction for each of those things, so basically study/practice so you have something to draw upon in the heat of the moment when tensions are high and mindcapacity is low. And try to be okay with the chaos, maybe even try to be welcoming to it, so you don't fear it as much. Also, having backup nearby does wonders since it's a scary process, it helps you stay out of your own head which can get stuck in loops if alone as well as being safer when dealing with someone that might get aggressive since there is a witness.
(Though, even after all that, it's still going to mess with you and get to you... Which is something you also have to accept... There is no preventing that or "easy way out". You do these things not to make it easier, you do these things to make it slightly less hard.)
Like I always say these days: Give no quarter.
I don't know if this was useful in any way, but I hope you'll get there 💚
@@MunkeyKung Ramani’s “radical acceptance”. Omg, thank you for your time & list. I understand the assignment. 👍🏼 Divorce is a break-up, just a hella more expensive, so yay for dodging that bullet. Thanks again. Best wishes to you. 😌
Wow... well put. 💚
Their empathy seems to be selective, when they feel like giving it, can be withdrawn if you accidentally trigger them and often times feels like its to suck you in to get you to be what they want and believe think and feel how they say you shiuld. It feels sickly when last week they were contemptuous and disdainful!
I liked how you caught yourself on "what's wro...what is upsetting for you". From way too much experience, they definitely view it as finding what they can then accuse you of being wrong for or less than for having vulnerability.
WOW! I feel like every video of yours is a revelation. That the variable empathy is a signature of narcissism is such a concise and accurate way to describe it! Sometimes it took me too long to realize they were a narc because of their strategic/manipulative, cognitive empathy. That was years ago. Now I just stay neutral (with a hint of assuming the worst) until I see consistent empathy. Thank you, Dr. Ramani. I hope you're doing well.
I so appreciate all the videos. Very comforting.
He really seemed to have empathy, he had empathy for babies and children struggling with cleft pallets. Now he wouldn't even think twice about it. This is what caught me up that his decline was due to his traumatic brain injury. I still don't know but I've learned enough now to know he had tendencies.
Look up Dr Daniel Amen. He does SPECT scans of people's brains and can find out what the TBI has done to his brain.
@@susanmercurio1060Yes, I watched his collab with Terri Cole. It doesn't help if your spouse doesn't think he has a problem. He is fine with the way he is.
Can you tell me a little bit more about this? I believe that the person I love has NPD, but when he got neuro Lyme his tendencies blew out of control.
I think narcissists don't feel true empathy because of their jealous natures.
Great observation. I totally agree.
Great video. Spot on.. My sister has only empathy for children..but a complete possessed Demon to everyone else. My sister is still stuck emotionally at age 12
I would consider myself hyper empathetic always felt this was my best quality but now understand it is not thank u for bringing this to my attention
Hi. I didn’t watch all of Ramani’s video yet (love her lessons so I will) but your comment caught my attn. Listening to another wonderful therapist, I learned abt “highly sensitive”. This is me. Not good or bad, better or worse, just helpful to learn how to manage being in touch with another’s feelings, without absorbing those feelings which then can debilitate me. Like suddenly I find myself in the same sadness & the rest of my day is sad when it wasn’t my story. Anyway, I don’t know “hyper empathetic” but true empathy is a beautiful quality, just protect your spirit. ❤
Yes. Too much empathy and taking on others responsibility has kept me from making boundaries and flip flopping on decisions. Rather than seeing situations and people in a more accurate light. 💡I would like to work on this.
I am also extremely empathetic. An overabundance of empathy can be an autistic trait. We're certainly magnets for narcs. My therapist has taught me that I have to have boundaries, even with my empathy.
Great video, really needed areas for clarification, thank you. So much respect
I have myself a covert narcissist. Everybody thinks he’s “such a great guy”. And when I hesitate to agree or don’t know what to say, I’m then told “no, really, he is”. Almost as if I need convincing. He love-bombs everybody who isn’t on his inner circle while treating his family with indifference and/or contempt. Even his own mother who’s always told him how perfect he is. After almost 40 years, the last 3 being ignored and getting the silent treatment, I’m looking forward to finally being free.
The brevity of their version of empathy (in contrast to their "needs") has often left me shocked - and previously numb. Such as when a close friend died - to in turn suffer a quick-fire reaction and absence of any extended engagement. The contrast is also belittling - the acting-out - that all life-events are so much more important and impactful for them. This leaves you feeling confused and unsettled. This results in you ceasing to divulge any meaningful or important information. This can also leave people feeling isolated, vulnerable, insecure. It is to weaken others to that point, to maintain a sense of "control".
So incredibly helpful. Thank you so much for going on about it. We are not crazy. ❤
🙏🏼 We are exhausted, hurt & stronger than we believe, but not crazy & not alone.
They're not emotionally aware or attuned to other people. Empathy is not possible.
I have been contemplating this topic for some time. I realized that a former narcissistic colleague had actually developed the ability to "weaponize" his "empathy". There was no tragedy that he could not turn to his advantage.
10:45 - The effort to understand the emotions put on display around us in a given situation. Body language, tone, pheromones. The effort put in to connect the dots between what one senses from the world around them to the internal universe each of us live in.
I think those are the words you needed there.
Blameshifting stands out to me. Words not matching actions. When I look back they really didn't hide the disinterest it was also out there how they didn't hide just saying or asking questions without hiding the lack care. I think this is early mask slipping testing. It's even better if they don't have to work right.
OMG, you have no idea how healing you are... Thank you so much Dr. Ramani!!! ❤
I love how you make sense of things, thank you!
This is so enlightening!! Thank you truly!
My ex can fake empathy and sincerity so well that people naturally open up and trust him. In reality, he is a deceitful malignant narcissist with two goals in life: get narcissistic supply and harm others.
Their compassion/empathy often feels sarcastic, cruel, and almost like they're enjoying your suffering.
It's the "aww, poor you, what happened?" - not out of true concern or wanting to support you, but rather out of some sadistic glee derived from the details of your pain.
You are so great! My husband is really nice at times...you feel he isn't faking. Eye-opener on aspects where we are mistaken. I'm over emphathatic...not towards spouse but my child and other close relations. I should be taking control of myself. Thanks so much
Please do more videos on the “Dark Empath” since they mingle amongst us at a much higher rate 19.3% 😮
Narcissist is only 4-5%.
Thank you for your amazing content 🙏
My father is a neglectful narcissist, yet he is very empathetic TOWARDS STRANGERS.
He has actively worked for the downtrodden.
He has a PhD in social psychology and has great empathy for “the poor”, “the Ukrainian people”, etc.
I have seen him cry about the circumstances of people he doesn’t know and that is the ONLY time he cries.
I don’t exist to him (to a truly bizarre degree) and neither does anyone else he actually knows, except insofar as it serves him.
He could not care less what others think of him.
That is so weird hearing you explain this! I totally get it. My father is a good man, but I feel invisible to him, and he's always running after strangers! He hasn't a bad bone in his body, and I don't think he even realises he does it. It's a man's world, and I am female. He always runs after my brothers.
@@m.j.2939 My mother is EXACTLY like this! Such behaviour is the hallmark of BPD. I am also female, and she completely ignores me in favour of males. In her mind (and her words too 😀) women are just "dolly birds". Ironically her "air-headed dolly bird" daughter though has been the only person to help her with all her problems!
Before I even heard the phrase "cognitive empathy," I noticed that the disordered person in my life understood it on an intellectual level.
It’s so dangerous.
My brother is a great manipulator, and made me and my mum homeless.
I hate the last 20 years of my life, and I’m in my 30s…
I got sick and had to have surgery that was going to cause “change” to my body… he told his friend “this is going to be so hard for me”. When he talks to acquaintances you would think he was the greatest empathetic kind man ever…. Crazy to me!
This is more mental gymnastics than the narcissist in your life deserves. Your intuition is always correct about bad people. Don't give them time/space in your life. You must have better things to do.
They make you feel horrible...that's all you need to know. So, since you can't change them...what do you think your options are?
True as simpel as that !! 😊
In essence that's true. They don't make you feel good about yourself, in fact they have you feeling bad all the damn time about who you are. That's all of it in a nutshell!
Except, sometimes getting away from those “bad people” is not so easy. Think, for example, of a young child with a narcissistic parent. How would you suggest that child implement the advice you just gave? Exactly! They can’t. And if you’re a regular on this channel, you’ll also understand how being part of a narcissistic family system often primes you for future abuse by “bad people” because that’s all you’ve ever known. So, while you may have been fortunate enough to have grown up in a loving family where you weren’t subjected to narcissistic abuse on a consistent basis, not everyone was so lucky. While YOU may not need to hear Dr. Ramani’s message, I assure you that there are plenty who do. So, instead of being so judgmental, I would encourage you to exercise some empathy. Lastly, this channel is about narcissism and narcissistic abuse. If you don’t like the subject matter, you’re more than welcome to go somewhere else.
@@anonymousa-uy1hk - LOL. If you are this reactive in the comment sections, you're in for a rough life. (Calmly read my comment again. You are reacting to some things I never said).
Thank you for talking about us and them and how it plays out. It's good to learn more about complicated details 😊
One of the most helpful explanations I’ve heard. Brava.
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
This video is so insightful. I especially appreciate you discussing the perceived lack of empathy on the part of people suffering with mental illness or addiction. Thank you for clarifying that in these situations, the person exhibiting the low empathy has no contempt for the other person (my son suffers greatly with OCD and this is spot on). Not so with the narcissist (as I have come to understand about my soon to be ex). This is a very important distinction. Thank you!
Christine Albright
Brilliant video 🙏...
Thank you 🙏...
This describes my marriage to a highly narcissistic person very well. I would go so far as to say that narcissism's lack of empathy (when the malignant contempt or manipulation isn't there) is for a similar reason to addiction, anxiety issues etc - when people are so pre-occupied with trying to get their own needs met that they have no time to attune to anyone else. My ex husband would of course also show empathy when he wanted something. One of the things I found most difficult in the relationship was the fact that he was also depressed, anxious, addicted and had Type 1 Diabetes, so it was really difficult to work out what his bad behaviour was a result of. Now I know more about narcissism I realise that the contempt and lack of remorse when called out was the clear indicator of his narcissism. It was a minefield and I'm still dealing with the effects.
I love the nuanced differentiation! Thank you ❤
I appreciate how this talk shows the behavior in a newer light. It illuminates the choice they make and the rational.
The NARC is addicted to competing with empathy, attention, and reality.
Like a "black hole": so much energy/gravity to themselves, give no light.
To Destroy your life is more noble and satifying instead of being "human"!
I divorced 2 Narcs in 4 years: '86 then '90. I got love bombed-rebounded by #2, still so "vulnerable" and damaged.
I LEARNED, cud write a book, but "I'm Free"♡ Gratitude to Jesus saved my life and "Content"!
Splenda. LOL. That is a perfect analogy.
Therapists work for me so much, because I knew they were doing it professionally, and only for the time of the appointment. Let me dump honestly, knowing they could take it so impersonally. Knowing I wasn't hurting them gave me permission to be utterly open.
Yasss!! Hence the need for good & helpful therapists, for as long as babies are being born around the world. For the parents & kids. 😮😊
This is helpful, and the back and forth of empathy depending upon how well supplied they are makes sense. We almost have hard days, but when a narc goes from mean to kind depending on how much they are put on a pedestal so they are giving empathy to the peasants is how I have felt it. Still gotta feel better than.
Woke up after discard, gave up 30 years of my life. Strange thing is i wouldnt call myself an empath - im an INTJ. However, there always was some hurdle i had to get over albeit financial, kids health, family members, owner building and so on that were multiyear events. Id also spent much time working on and fixing myself, because.... well some of her points were logical. But didnt make a difference even with reinventing myself. Then i knew it was within her, but i was 100% convinced at some stage she'd sit down to open and honest conversation to workout whatever these issues were that were driving a wedge between us. After all who goes 20+ years without investing at least that? Then golden child got anorexia, separation, hoover and the 5 years later im completely broken and final discard is triggered.
I say all this, because even without being an empath 30 years can vanish real quick for the protector, provider and problem solver types.
I appreciate you explaining autism and empathy and mental illness turning inward. I went through a bad depression, and I didnt realize how bad it actually was until someone told me bad news. I was completely numb. I know something bad happened. I know I should feel bad. What is happening? Why don’t I feel anything? Thank goodness the news was broken over text so I could type out what I was supposed to be feeling, and type out the right words. It made me feel like a monster. I dont like feeling numb like that.
It has to be (subconsciously) mentally exhausting for the Narcissist to hear someone express emotion and have to (1) register, "Oh, an emotion or emotional situation, this is the accepted public response. I need to start acting." and (2) simultaneously register, "Aha. This person feels emotion about this. I found a weak spot, and I could exploit this later. Catalog this away in my file for future (ab)use."
The narcissist actually goes through this entire process with no emotion of his/her own except maybe a little inner glee that a future weapon has been handed them. Sad. I can have compassion for this empty miserable soul, but no reason for it serves as an excuse.
Just another deceiving, deplorable trick they have
Very interesting video. Thank you, Dr R.
My mom was a narcissist...I see similar traits in my mother in law....AND my husband.
It's an emotional roller coaster for me.
Thank you, Dr Ramani! ❤👍
Eauuu. my mom did this to my husband, always bringing up his dead mother, and how her mom died when she was a child. she was trying to break him down, and manipulate him, and luckily he didn't go for the bait. Just know thy enemy.
I'm grateful for this video. This is what I've been confused about. I can pinpoint times in my life where I thought he showed genuine empathy towards me, and that confused me.
Two other things stuck out in this video. The first is: at times he mocked my intelligence. However when he built me up about my intelligence, which was much more than he marked it, it always involved him saying the word I. It was never, you're bright and intelligent, it was always "I've always believed you were intelligent," or "I told you that you can do amazing things."
The other thing that stuck out is: while empathy for me seemed low, he seemed to have an abundance of it for others. I know that showing empathy was one way he got people to like him, but I think it hurt him to see other people suffer.... I'm trying to make sense of that. I never exactly know what was real or not, so that's the hard part of it all.
Very helpful,this explanation makes sense.
After 59 years of almost daily contact with my mom and siblings, I finally escaped and live alone in a small apartment. I never had a lot of friends, and the ones I chose became abusive when angry. I’m falling apart, mentally, physically, and financially. I don’t recognize myself, minimal empathy (even for myself), no desire to interact with anyone. Agoraphobia is setting in. This life thing is so painful.
Thanks. I've been trying to defend some narcissistic people in my own mind for so long becuase they weren't part of the typical quick-referenced descriptions. It's been easy to say they made me feel a certain way, but it was difficult to place that even mostly on them and not some weakness or failure in me. My mother was narcissistic and I dated more than one person who treated me the same ways. The pattern is a reflection of me. But my choice in partners is a reflection of the narcissistic wounds they gave me, too.
The weird thing I've noticed though is that they do notice when our mood shifts and often pick up on such small things as shifts in face expression but often react with rage instead of compassion. I mean, my last irl interaction with a person who I was severely trauma-bonded to (I won't use the word 'narcissist' since it has become so inflammatory but all the antagonistic traits were there) was him raging at me because I simply got sad & "ruined his weekend" (by making a sad face literally). I took an Uber, cried all the way home & am now doing my best to not look back...
And the reason I was sad was because I already knew at that point that they had already got back together with their ex behind my back and were going to meet the 'ex' after I've left and kept me at arms length for the entire weekend for that reason 😉 And I felt so horrible that I didn't even have to capacity to make any snarky comment. I literally got visibly sad (without saying a single word) and that was enough of a reason for raging at me...
What's even more confusing is the fact that, despite this person being very socially skilled & perceptive, I still often found myself explaining the absolute basics of empathy to, excuse my french, a grown-ass adult...
... while enduring their constant mocking, and even comparing me "as a joke" (the irony of it all) to an autistic child
This is a SOCIOPATH & you’re lucky 🍀 now work on yourself so it never happens s again by breaking that trauma bond with a year of no contact as you overcome obvious cognitive dissonance
@caroleminke6116 That's the plan (although therapy is getting more & more costly but I'll manage); thank you so much ❤️
Very well explained ! My new favorite video ❤Thanks Dr Ramani. I'll love to ear more about Dark empaths.
This really gets to me. My mom writes about empathy and caring and belongingness and hope and she may have written some texts or journal articles you have read but she would only have empathy for her grad students and they would call her mom and they would tell me how lucky I was but I had no one to turn to and she is exceptionally cruel to me and even when she was mad at her doctoral and post doc students she would project them onto me even calling me by their names, and when she was mad at them she would take it out on me and when she was pleased with herself for doing something really nice for one of them she was also mad at me for not being grateful for whatever she did for whoever as if the thing was done for me. There are a lot of things even worse than just this. I've been outcasted since no one will talk to her about this so she just lays into me with impunity. She's written me out of any wills, downfalls I could have used due to disability. But she is a famous professional "expert" on empathy in academia.
My husband shows no empathy to me, but he talks to everyone else as if he is very empathetic. He tells them how upsets he is and that he adores me… he has NEVER said that to me
Try to go gray rock as you cease being his supply & take back your power through self control 💔❤️🩹♥️
This is so perfectly described and explained!!
I'm finally at the point in my recovery where my first thought reading the thumbnail is, who effing cares. I am just through thinking about them. But thanks for all your fabulous videos.
THANK YOU!!! I have had so many questions about this, thank you so much for explaining.
I agree that if you notice that the person sometimes has empathy, but can be cruel and cold and lack it otherwise, this can actually be the sign you are dealing with a narcissist. That’s why the trauma bonds are so hard to break.
My ex-husband was definitely a psychopath. His empathy was calculated. Especially as he got older. When he was younger, like a teenager, he was probably just a narcissist. As he got older, he became more cruel and unapologetically so. At times, he seemed to be very proud of how cruel he could be to me and other people. He would laugh at compassion and kindness. He was always ready with a checkbook to give donations at public fundraisers. Quick to send flowers or money when someone's relative died. But if it was someone in his own family or me, he would Dole out harsh criticism for having emotion, illness, or any other difficulty. And then every now and then he would surprise you with something that seemed really nice and caring. And he would refer back to that one time he was nice as an indicator that he was a good person and you're just needy or broken. He was horribly cruel. Ready with a checkbook whenever it would make him look good. And then people would wonder how anything negative could be true when he was so magnanimous! All of that was for show. Truly, a horribly abusive and cruel person. A sadist
So clarifying … thank you Dr Ramani 💜
Over empathy is such a problem for me. I have to wear earbuds running errands because if I hear an interaction like a parent saying no to a child I will empathize with both the parent and the child and probably be bothered by it for way longer than either one of them probably did.
I'm trying to remember it's not just the narc that has disordered empathy and that I need to work on that area too, especially because I'm the only one I can change.
I like the term cognitive empathy. I also feel like I see a lot of performative empathy. None of it goes past the first layer though.