TF2: Let's talk about Weapon Bans
Вставка
- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- Hello friends!
Today we're going to go over how and why weapons get banned in community competitive,
As well as cover a bit of history behind whitelists and whats changed over the years.
Subscribe for more TF2! goo.gl/oOqXLV
Sites used:
- TMP's video on odd jungle inferno mechanics (gas passer footage)
---- • 1 Minute of Odd Jungle...
- teamfortress.tv's video on muuki playing weird classes in 6s
---- • Muuki vs. 3/6: ETF2L S...
- 10 year old thread on the Pyro update (airblast / first unlocks etc)
---- etf2l.org/forum...
- Touhou remixes used:
---- • 【東方Folk／Instrumental】 ...
---- • Video
---- • 【東方Orchestral／Instrume...
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Links
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► Group
steamcommunity....
► Twitch
/ awoolensleevelet
► Twitter
/ woolensleevelet
► Discord
/ discord
Credits:
• Intro/Outro music is by: jukiokallio.com (with permission)
• Background ambience is usually from: epidemicsound.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Ігри
![[TF2] the worst weapon for every slot](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ag-A28mEcfA/mqdefault.jpg)
"and all people did was hide behind their heavy and hope that the other heavy was shit"
Woolen 2018
Cho Man "you hide behind your heavy and hope theirs is a bit shit"-Woolen 2018*
remember when i46 had gunboats banned and the americans still wiped the floor with everyone
I HAVE A SHOTGUN
Gun go pew pew
*OH SAY CAN YOU SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE*
@@jimmyjr803 BY THE FATHERLY LIIIIIIIIIGHT
@@engineerxero7767 *WRONG LYRICS. FAKE AMERICAN SPOTTED, ACTIVATING ANTI-EUROPEAN PROTOCOLS.*
1:16 It's examples like this that proves how it's good to allow weapons into the competitive scene, instead of banning everything that changes the meta. It's important to shake up the meta with new weapon introductions to make it clearer how to balance them. The competitive scene is too scared of meta changes, which means that all future weapons that aren't trash will be banned. Always. And that's a shame. Because Valve could get a much better idea of how to balance the game, if the best players in the game helped them, but they don't.
1:53 This is another example of poor choice from the competitive scene. Why ban weapons because they seem pointless, when they had potential to lead to experimentation? probably.
Something that changes the sixes meta?
Disgusting
*banned*
@@richardvlasek2445 How is the liberty launcher useless
@@thebushbros6626 not enough damage, and it's benefits don't outweigh lossing 25% of your main source of damage. Being able to hit directs is nice, but the damage reduction made that pointless. The reduced damage to self when rocket jumping wasn't enough. The Extra rocket is nice thou, but only leads you to doing less damage over a longer time. 90*4 = 360 (Stock) versus 69*5 = 272. That's 88 less damage SLOWER.
@@richardvlasek2445 but how is the force a nature useless though
@@gregtechnewhorizons knock back usually knocks people too far away for the second shot to reliably do more than 30 damage to the target
Let me know what you think of this kind of video!
I am happy to go into more detail on what the exact reason for certain weapon bans are,
or cover something like highlander (which has pretty much always only banned a few weapons, unlike old 6s)
I would love seeing both
Really interested to hear more about this kind of stuff Woolen, great video! It's always good to know why bans exist, as we don't want comp to get stale. You're a rather good scout too!
Hey Woolen, a question, do you think the dragon's fury is competitively viable?
It's kind of hard as it is to find out why certain weapons are banned without doing some real digging, so it'd be nice to have that information all in a neat and tidy video (until it gets outdated of course)
a Woolen Sleevelet anything for more woolen videos.
the reason some weapons are banned is because it counters the worshipped composition in 6v6: 2 soldiers, 2 scouts, 1 medic, 1 demo. exhibit A: old GRU
"We can't have this weapon in 6s because it'll make the match boring"
*Locks the meta*
Even if everything was unbanned, the only thing it would change composition wise is that now you run a heavy instead of one scout or soldier. Then people would say shit like "6v6 players only like the 1 heavy 2 scout 1 soldier 1 demo and 1 med meta".
And to add on, most of the banned weapons are banned because they make scout stronger. So potentially it could even reinforce the current composition even more then the current ban list does.
In other words, comments like this show ignorance towards how the game works in general.
@@maximuffin6395 Because the meta is fun, do you really want a heavy to be fast and the match to just be endless stalemate?
Good
@@ava5030 its so hard for casual monkeys to just understand this
Definitely do a Highlander one, and that other sixes one. Interesting stuff
I would love for a video to be made on why the current 6's whitelist (5/16/2018) has the weapons banned as they are. I've been interested in this kinda stuff for awhile, but i can't seem to find any post or forum where people actually explain the reasons why certain weapons are banned.
Also thanks cute doggo british man for making another great video :3!
SuperNovaFox it would be a great video i would watch
SuperNovaFox I mean the quick fix is banned not only for the playstyle, but due to the fact that it builds in about 30 seconds again.
SuperNovaFox I know sideshow had a video on this or something very similar to this, youd probably have to search through his channel to find it tho as the fucker puts random titles on everything
Id love a video on why weapons are banned. And it doesnt only have to be current weapons, a bit of a history lesson would be nice too
where's the big circle and arrows
its not about the circles and arrows in the thumbnails young one,
its about the circles and arrows that exist in your heart (ﾟ▽^)
what heart?
this is why you need circles and arrows
:(
snooz he doesn’t stop that low
The only reason the dragon fury is banned is because it can shoot through the spawn gates. Correct?
Couple of other hitbox bugs but yeah
Might also be because its really strong in pyro ubers, but that might be outdated info
i'll have to look into it again
a Woolen Sleevelet thanks for the information
Would love a Highlander version, and any follow up vids on this topic!
Doesn't highlander barely have any bans and most are the same as 6s, asides from a few like the red tape recorder?
Isaac Argesmith
It’s got a few less bans because some classes counter certain weapons, such as a spy to the wrangler. It still has banned weapons, and it would be interesting to see the background as to why they are banned.
whitelist.tf/etf2l_9v9_s15
6 seconds too short.
5*
@@tammushican4823 6*
@@jad6386 nice u replied to a year old comment, what device are you watching it on?
Tam Mushican what do you mean
@@tammushican4823 It’s so ironic that you’re talking about someone replying to your comment from a year ago when your reply is from a year after the original comment.
I’d appreciate a mini series on specific weapons, as well as other aspects of competitive, like maps
The music in the beginning of the video, not intro seems so familier. Anyone know what song it is?
The problem with the whip is that it gives your whole team the ability to get to mid faster than the enemy team if they dont have their own whippers. It basically forces both teams to use the weapon to have the same offensive ability at the beginning of the round.
The TF Dev Team seems to be moving the game into a more competitive direction (contracts, comp mode overhaul, weapon balancing based on competitive feedback, etc.), but a big problem is the comp community's refusal to change. The current format (5 cp) and meta restricts over half the classes and bans many weapons that are not as strong in other modes (quick-fix, pretty boy's pocket pistol, etc.). Valve will obviously want to showcase all 9 classes and have a few different game modes for a TF2 tournament, so there needs to be at least a form of middle ground between the in-game competitive mode and third party competitive modes and if possible a migration more towards the in-game competitive mode. Based on the current state of the community though, I don't know how or when we could see any serious middleground between the two communities.
Do you think we will ever see a Valve sponsored TF2 tournament/majors? If so when?
I'd say there wont be a TF2 Major until all weapons are balanced and the ruleset and mappool are set in stone between Valve and the comp community. If we got a Major today and it had the ruleset of the current Comp Matchmaking, it would just be a massive joke with things like 1 medic and 5 scouts and lolturbine. Plus they would be dismissing the huge amount of work that the comp community as put into the game developing and evolving the meta and way to play trying to make the game play as fast-paced, fun and watchable as possible, and that would be rather disrespectful.
Pum - I agree completely. Valve may view the format that the competitive community has developed as just one form of competitive TF2 (5cp) or they may want to try to change the meta, but that would be pretty difficult at this point. I'm worried that at the pace that Valve is going though that we won't see any major endorcement or support from Valve for the next couple of years. Valve needs to either improve the competitive mode heavily so that it attracts new players and competitive players towards it or add an incentive to play it (which I doubt will happen until they are confident in the format and ruleset). All we can really do at this point is give Valve feedback on the competitive mode and wait to see what happens with it in the coming updates. I would love to see things like class limits, adjustments to game modes and maps (ctf, pro maps, etc.), and more weapon balances to name a few improvements that they could make.
All 9 classes will never be as good as each other. There will never be a point where a 6s team can run any of the 9 classes full time without being a disadvantage. Valve knows this, because that's how they created the game. I don't know where this "all 9 classes should be equally good in comp" idea came from but it needs to stop, because it isn't a realistic expectation and was never meant to be.
The reason 5cp and koth are basically the only thing played in community 6s is because they are the only maps that fit 6s. All the payload maps are too big for only 12 players, ctf is a garbage gamemode in it's current state, things like medieval mode and mannpower and whatnot are joke gamemode, etc. Now a currently excluded mode I think has the most potential as a 6s gamemode is attack defense, but I can't thunk of any maps existing mapa that would work in 6s.
It's all a matter of reaping what one sows: no extra bang for your buck. That the Huntsman shouldn't initiate a game-winning push for just guessing where their Medic was. So if a weapon is banned, it's likely either because it takes less effort to use effectively, or that it objectively accomplishes much more in the same hands over something else.
I think we can agree that the competitive team to take the prize pool shouldn't be a pack of 6 Huntsman Snipers who legitimately guessed behind every kill as they steamrolled the control points.
First Name Last Name - The reason that payload, ctf, and attack/defend are in the competitive mode map pool is because they allow for more team variety and capability. 5cp and koth, while they do work for fast paced gameplay with the current 6s meta, are very restrictive in class compositions and weapon variety. Valve will want to show off all 9 classes in at least some way with each being somewhat viable most of the time in specific game modes. For all we know, Valve may be happy with the 5cp competitive meta that the competitive scene has set up, but they want more game modes for more variety in the gameplay, class, and weapon compositions, hence payload, ctf, and attack/defend being in the competitive mode. Lots of players will likely want to play Pyro, Heavy, Engineer, Sniper, and Spy and Valve likely wants them to have a mode where they can effectively play those classes most of the time.
Bro I've been looking for this video ever since you uploaded part 2 and I never was able to find it until today. This must be a blessing.
Top content wool. I find something useful about having lots of similar-but-different banlists across a gaming community - this acts as a sort-of free crowdsourced testing of which weapons (and which weapon availability-combos) are really the most balanced. This could also be achieved with dedicated testing, but that can be a ballbreaker to rally up.
So basically the reason the old GRU were/are banned is ye' ol "it would be usefull against one of our core classes and we are deadset on our 2 soldier 2 scout 1 demo 1 medic composition to change to a class that could counter Heavy so we just gonna ban it instead" rule.
Nice too see....
Well, the current 6's people are used to high-octane action, mostly from 1) mobility 2) speed 3) projectiles 4) burst damage. A mid heavy basically kills a lot of it. No more soldiers in the air, nobody plays aggressive, everybody is hiding behind a heavy, dodging a good heavy won't really do much, etc.
Not only does heavy have one of the lowest skill ceilings, a mid heavy ends up lowering the skill ceiling of the entire game. All because "class variety" is more important than "gameplay variety".
After both teams get 1 heavy at mid, one team may go sniper. And then other team goes sniper. Skill ceiling has been raised, but now people are even more afraid to peek sightlines if the Sniper is good. And now you have to deal with tf2's most frustrating class (ever have fun playing against an aimbotter?).
I mean, this may sound fine to you, but the rest of your team has to wait on a single player: the heavy/sniper. Before, they could make their own plays when appropriate (even without uber), but now, it's way too risky. Gameplay stagnates, but hey, at least Heavy and Sniper are being used!
Why not Spy? Sniper won't die immediately after killing somebody, and won't die if he makes a mistake.
Engineer isn't used since teamwork hard-counters mini-sentries. And he can't build lvl 3 sentries fast enough anywhere but last. And without a sentry, he's a bad version of scout. Pyro lacks range, damage, and will be decimated by enemy scouts/shotgun soldiers. So yea...
Okay. So the argument becomes "Heavy makes the mid fight unfun, because he can shut down two Soldiers." Okay. Do you know what kills Heavy? A Sniper, a Spy, or combined force; something that a 6s team should not have any trouble doing. You have 2 Roamers to get behind and kill the enemy Medic; so the excuse Heavy is too strong with a Med; Demo can sticky trap or spam the f*ck out of Heavy; and if the enemy is running a Heavy; run a Sniper to counter him.
This improves the skill ceiling by forcing players to adapt to the change of classes; as someone may run another Sniper or Spy to counter the Sniper countering the Heavy who counters the Soldiers. Now there's more numbers to pay attention too and more skill required. As opposed to the boring 2 Soldiers, 2 Scouts, Demo and Medic that every game runs because it's meta. And the claim "They do this because it's fast" shouldn't count. Having meta changers and shift breakers is not a bad thing; as it can adjust the flow of the game.
If the meta stays as 2 Soldiers, 2 Scouts, Demo and Medic; then there's no argument, the team with the Superior skill is going to stomp every round. Perhaps switching tactics may yield the illusion of hope, but it's going to play out the same way just with slightly different timing. Introducing a flow breaker could change that entirely. So you lose the mid fight first round, this causes you to run a Heavy 2nd round to give yourself a stronger push; this will likely spawn someone to switch to sniper; so now you have to plan around that instead. TF2 is a 9 class game, and Valve wants to show off all 9 classes, and have them be viable. But as long as the decision that Comp has to be high octane fast action non-stop remains a standpoint; the meta will never shift and TF2's comp scene will never go anywhere.
TheShadowlord90, I'll go off-topic. What's wrong with 9v9 Highlander? 7v7 Prolander? Formats based around better class representation, and with goals that you already agree with.
yeah competitive is essentially snobby people who are dead set in playing there way saying they know better than the devs
Dark Nes But what about Highlander? Devs had a chance to embrace the competitive version of pubs that players could be familiar with, and yet they didn't.
Another thing to realize is that of all competitive experiments over the decade, few survived. Player numbers, maps, game modes, weapon bans, class composition, etc were all tried. What made the other versions die, and what made Sixes/Highlander survive for so long? Not saying those are the ideal gamemodes, but why were they so successful?
I wish leagues would post their reasons for bans alongside the whitelists. Right now it's a bit of a guessing game. Most bans make sense, but some are weird like the Mantreads.
manthreads are to op againdt pyros and sentried uwu
This video misses the biggest reason for the early bans. And that reason accommodates for things like the mantreads today. The reason is that it adds an element of variance into the game that you can't reasonably expect players to account for. Imagine if there were a seemingly infinite amount of unlocks in the game, although individually each weapon unlock might be 'balanced' in its individual usage, there would come a point where there is just too many different things players could use and so it becomes impossible for someone to play around everything, as they would have to act in completely different ways in order to play around unlocks which others could have. If you're familiar with Hearthstone, then that game provides the best illustration of what I mean. There comes a point where there is just so many different random things which could happen to you that it becomes tactically better to just not play around things at all. And when that happens, you are actually reducing the skill required to play the game as opposed to increasing it.
The view of the leagues is that items like the mantreads invoke too much random variance into the game. They don't believe that players should have to play around them as having them in the game and actually actively needing to play around them changes too much about the core nature of the format.
but how do the mantreads add randomness?
"an element of variance into the game that you can't reasonably expect players to account for"
Um.... These are the best players in the community.... And I don't know about you but when I play a chaotic 12v12 with zero weapon bans I don't get surprised by weapons I've never heard of.
+An Undertale Fan
Subjectively speaking, you can argue that its no more 'random' than any other item. But they enable soldiers to fight in a way in which they aren't supposed to. I.e, soldier is built to kill people with rockets and shotgun. Giving them an item which enables them to kill people in a completely different manner is counter to their role in 6s (even if this new manner of fighting is always strictly worse), and so the 6s playstyle is one in which to play it well you shouldn't be accounting for soldiers trying to mantread you. So if you did play 6s with mantreads unlocked, and you got killed by it, you're essentially getting punished for playing well as its pretty much never going to be correct to even consider that your enemies would use mantreads in a 6s scenario. So by allowing it, all you're doing is encouraging bad play. You're just enabling variance to occur where you die in scenarios in which you shouldn't.
+Amadeus
I started comp in 2012 ish. It doesn't matter how good people are, if there are thousands of different weapons in the game, you physically can't play around them all at once because different weapons can force you to act in ways which are contradictory with another. Let me give you an example. Imagine that they gave sniper an unlock which replaced the sniper rifle with a rocket launcher. Now imagine you're in a 6s scenario where it gets called out that the enemy has a sniper. Well now, to play optimally, you have to act in very specific ways, different to what you were doing before. For instance, you have to not peak chokes, you have to have your med pop uber early so your med doesn't get dropped, and its going to mean you should pressure flank more because the enemy team are down a scout. But, because this specific sniper is using a weapon that replaces his rifel, all those correct playstyle adjustments you just did are instantly negated. And so, your team is going to get punished, essentially out of luck, because the opponent happened to use a weapon which it isn't correct for you to play around. And if this rocket launcher unlock became popular for sniper, you would lower the skill cap of the game as people would have to stop playing around sniper in the conventional fashion. And when it stops becoming effective to play around classes in the conventional way, and there is too many ways to play around one class, then its more effective to completely abandon the attempt to play around something. And then the meta would result in everyone mutually playing worse. This is fundamentally why its bad for the game if you give a class too much variety in what it can do, because then you can't use skill to play around class identity anymore.
"plus, i dont think he has time to set someone on fire then axe him"
Never has there been a more wrong statement
two videos in a month?
*iS tHiS tHe ReAl wOLLen?!*
edit: i like this more explaini videos, they are neat
hoho
Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide
No escape from memality
@@milkagem reality*
@@tammushican4823 nah
8:42, Archimedes!!! It’s filthy in there!!!
There’s something called watching the amount of time you have the GRU out. You can essentially rollout halfway before you can just withdraw the GRU and get full-health at mid while not being too slow. Not to mention your med can overheal you a bit so the max health loss won’t be too bad in case you get surprised. People need to learn how to use the GRU and adapt to its change and I see it nearly as viable as the fists of steel.
I've always found the idea of banning weapons because they might disturb the existing meta hilarious, especially in a game like TF2 where understanding your class and choice if loadout is so key. Unfortunately the mentality of 'the majority play like this, so its the only acceptable way to play' is not exclusive to TF2, loads of competitive scenes follow this logic and its honestly kinda upsetting.
Take for example, Destiny 2. Not a very competitive game by design, big hitboxes, an unbalanced sandbox, peer to peer servers with a hilariously low tickrate for a modern day FPS and a distinct lack of stable anti cheat software. Despite this, an active scrims/tourney scene does exist, and it has a whitelist just like this one. Certain exotics are banned for being too overpowered or damaging to the nature of competitive destiny (looking at you antaeus), and most teams when looking at the rules and agreeing to them find no issue.
The expectation is that both teams will be running two hunters, with one warlock or titan, and two shotguns and a sniper, handcannons all around. Much like the established meta and team composition in overwatch, TF2, CS:GO etc, people just expect you to play a certain way, but most of the time, there's no rules saying you have too. I've found that the best of the best players in any given game are more than capable of recognizing an off meta play style and working around it. However the majority of competitive players are not the best of the best, they're very good, but they're very good at playing people like them. So if you dare break the normalised play style in a tourney with your fusion rifle or your sun on a stick, they'll cite rules that don't exist to disqualify you because 'you're not supposed to play that way.'
That's what I love about games with options, the ability to be mechanically less skilled than an opponent, but come out on top because your understanding of maps, positioning and your loadout, and I've found that rules that place all the emphasis on being able to 'hit ur pills' or 'land ur shots' lead to not only a boring and repetitive experience for watching, but for playing too. There's only so many times I can watch an AWP duel on twitch before I wished one of them had a Negev, just for the fun of it.
Except weapons aren't banned to keep the meta intact
Explainy videos with your voice are nice to have in the background while studying or something I'd watch/listen to these for sure wooly boi
God old comp sounds like an absolute nightmare
I think that would be a pretty neat video idea wool-dog, would be an interesting watch
I just remembered that I was gonna comment on this. First of all, I'd love to hear more about why things are banned in competitive and I did enjoy this video.
Additionally I wanted to say that watching your videos helped me unwind after a stressful end to the semester.
Good stuff, Woolen! As for your video suggestion at the end, I'd watch the heck outta that if you get top level players and their opinions on banned weapons!
This should be a series on every class and their weapon bans
I think for all your viewers who either play comp or have an interest in doing so, this sort of video is really neat. Probably not as interesting to folks who are only pubbers, but still educational at the very least.
alright, thanks
As a guy who has zero interest in competitive gaming in general and only plays TF2 in Casual and Community servers, I personally thought it was really interesting. I always wondered why certain weapons were banned in competitive play, and this video did clear some things up for me that I was curious about.
Yeah, actually, I would be way into a video covering every weapon and their reasons for being banned! I had no idea about things like the Gas Passer or the Quick Fix which were mentioned in this video.
very interesting indeed. I would love to see a video on why certain weapons are banned as well as a video about weapon bans in highlander
I kind of feel bad for the developers. They make these weapons in response to complaints about a class being useless in 6v6, and then the community just bans them.
I quite enjoy these types of videos with just casual commentary over some nice fraggy boye footage
COMPETITIVE ON THE FUTURE:
-Banned all the weapons exept the stock weapons
Valve righty nerfs the gru and eviction notice, but leaves the buffalo steak untouched? The steak makes the heavy more 5% faster than the gru and still allows him to arrive at mid with 300.
I wouldn't be surprised if they were just unaware of the issue. The fix is very simple, just make it last much longer (like 50% or 75% longer) and reduce the damage taken. Now its no longer breaks rollout since you'll arrive and still be stuck with melee, and its also better on pubs
going over why all the bans are there would be amazing. I've always been confused about some of them.
I was waiting quite a long time for this woolen thanks man !
Took mere seconds for me to recognize the style of the music. Very good BGM choice, my dude
been waiting for this for so long, good job dude!
thanks man
Certainly liked this video and would like to see follow ups on both highlander and why some items are banned
I think it would be interesting if class limit would be in 6's. It would be more variable and maybe fun, I mean it's kind of weird that in a 9 class team-based game we see most of the time 4 class.
why do they ban taunts they don't tend to do much they aren't overpowered and the don't help you in any way so why do they ban taunts, I don't think the meta is going to change much by the pool party taunt being legal
You can peek corners with no drawbacks.
I would love a highlander ban video like this. Thanks!
Thanks Woolen! This was a really interesting and informative video!
YESSSSS more MOREEE! -the administrator
I do hope Valve rebalance these weapons that are currently banned in Competitive 6v6 without changing the fundamentals of the weapon in future updates like for example making the Atomizer marking you for death upon triple jumping, making the Cow Mangler have a slower reload and making the Quick-Fix have faster crit heal rate instead of just faster healing just as some examples.
BUt The Cow Mangler already has an hidden stat, it reloads slower.
LuizLuca it was patched
Another legendary commenter.
there is nothing valve can do about some things as 6v6 meta forces things that work counter to it to be shoved into a box and buried. sadly this has lead to the issue of a good 50% of the community manning solly or scout ban wagons if out of 9 classes on a team of 6 you are only using 4 of the classes something is wrong fundamentally with the concept. but im a salty highlander player who dislikes that 6's is the game mode the dev team deiced is the essential TF2 experience...a game mode where each team runs 4 classes of 9 with 4 of them dubbing up the most DM/maneuverable and crying foul if you work to actively counter it..if there is only one tactic there is no tactics
Don’t make the cow mangler reload slower please, I love using it as roamer in valve competitive (cause it’s banned in most other 6’s)
I don’t know what downside is suitable but just please not the reload time
I really loved this video. The croissant I was eating tasted better with it.
Awesome
Yes please do another vid on the specifics, however have in mind a good chunk of the current banned weapons are nearly ready to get unbanned
I'd love another video on these types of things
In 6s, the sandvich and eviction notices are allowed...
Running heavy with tomislav/minigun, sandvich, and eviction notices to mid is fun and dumb in process....
I gotta admit I havent enjoyed a tf2 video in a while but this
Cool vid man. Would be real interested in that list of why all weapons are individually banned!
Make the video about all the banned weapons. This was really interesting and that'd be too!
Discussing whitelists without discussing class limits it's only half of the story. Some weapons got unbanned, because a class was restricted to 1 (e.g. pyro, heavy). Also maps play a huge role, like stale matey last on Freight etc.
very fair point
This was great and I would like another video like this.
Hey woolen i got a question about your viewmodel, instead of not seeing your wep can you make it transparent?
Scout is the heavy we never knew about.
I remember buying a strange professional killstreak loch-n-load then a few days later it got banned from competitive so I pretty much lost all profit
I'd be intrigued hearing from some competitive players who disagree with the various banned weapons, not just ones justifying it. As with them being debated, there must be people on either side of them or there wouldn't be much debate.
your crouch jumps hurt my brain
A question for yall comp players: the Cow mangler (for what i know) is banned on 6s leagues for pretty much being a straight upgrade from stock in every situation where there is no engi (aka every 6s game ever), so why isnt the Iron Bomber banned, a weapon which is also basically a straight upgrade.
People consider it more of a sidegrade than an upgrade these days, its mostly personal preference
With the iron bomber you trade reliable rollers that act as pseudo stickies for long range spam (because of the shorter defuse). Also engi is the second most played offclass in 6s, its very rare for me not to see one at least once every 2 rounds, specially in high level play.
Quick Fix is legal in Highlander tho. So is the Blutsauger and solemn vow.
Most leagues now have a specific Whitelist custom to there own league and weapons like the Atomizer and Cow Mangler where unbanned in most leagues as they did not break the game, and even with the Atomizer unban scouts still ran the Boston Basher irregardless of the unban.
Also the Vaccinator was unbanned in most leagues and it did not break the game, and Engies run the jag in 6s on last that is the wrench of choice of almost all engies.
On the topic of Ban List RGL is a league that holds comp games and often get viewership above 4k viewers on Twitch and chunky prize pools and they host Unrestricted 6s, as one of there main game types.
I enjoyed it. Bring me more. But I feel like the Crit-a-Cola's ban is self-explanatory.
I'm curious to go into more detail! This video is informative and quite interesting, you got a follow from me.
Lmao @ the editing at 4:52, we can already see the title before it pops up as he says it.
What is the song name I your intro? I found the artist but I can't find the specific song. Thanks!
Sniper primaries as a whole should just be banned tbh
Being able to quick scope 6 out of nine classes from any range
And full charge all classes with full overheal from any range is way too fucking strong
Scout - should be moving around and hard to hit
Engineer - should be in the backlines and hidden behind his buildings
Sniper - counters himself
Spy - can go invisible
Medic - shouldn't be peeking snipers
If you dies as one of these classes to a quick scope, you deserve it.
The soldier was balanced historically about being slow but look at him now. No one bats and eye.
...was he? He was shown rocket jumping in the 2006 beta trailer. In fact, that's all they showed about soldier. A ton of soldiers jumping all over 2fort. ua-cam.com/video/57srzkIaZXk/v-deo.html
He was intended to have high mobility from before the beginning.
W/o Gunboots he loses about 60 HP for every rocket jump. Probably he wasn't supposed to rollout like nowadays.
nuclear throne music in the outro cool
heh im not the only one with the floating Boston basher inspect
the mad milk is banned? wow. i mean, i get things like crit-a-cola + bonk being banned, even after the recent patches but i thought people just didn't use the milk because having a damage-dealing secondary was better than having occasional health regen
Health on scout is really really really strong
a Woolen Sleevelet no yeah i just remembered that if you dont miss your shots, you can out-damage/out-heal a heavy in close range with the milk lol. is it also banned in highlander?
Do another one please! This was interesting c:
woolen i dont know why but your intro is so calming
I'd love to hear your thoughts about the "prolander" 7v7 format, and your thoughts on the pick/ban system they use.
yes to the idea at the end of the video. Please do that
ban all weapons that do over 20 damage or just nerf every weapon do they all do 20 damage and healing is upped 200% that will make sure nobody whines! but wait, we gotta remove ammo and health packs so that we cant outplay eachother!
Wow that voice. I could literally listen to you talking about anything and I'd still be interested.
"during the recent jungle inferno update" god damn😔
Would love that video.
Also would note that banning a weapon because it’s “bad” is really dumb. It stiffles any chance of more weapon diversity for not really a good reason.
Weapon diversity isn't really existent when they're bad weapons. Meta means the most effective tactic available. You're going to use the most effective weapons in a competitive environment, not the worst weapons.
Of course bad weapons aren't banned nor should they be banned. But nobody is going to use them anyway.
liberal my point was more of mindsets can change over time and people can realize that a weapon that was deemed bad is actually pretty good situationally or can be used for a surprise strat. Just straight up banning them removes any small possibility of that happening(I understand it’s a really small chance of happening.)
Elaborate, because I can't imagine any sort of bad or subpar weapon that has any shock tactic value whatsoever ("Surprise strat") that isn't a shield.
Bad strats are outclassed wether they work as a surprise or not. Shock tactics tend to not work on more grizzled players.
im not that into competitive tf2 but from watching this im starting to feel like 6v6 is very boring to watch due to only like 4-5 diff classes are being used. highlander would be more fun to watch and probably play
all im gonna say is theres more to a game than just its classes
yes it boring to watch specially with it 11 year old stagnant meta on the same 5cp maps, i recommend watching prolander it stick more to the standard tf2 formula
I think you're overlooking the fact that people have gotten used to one kind of meta and refuse to deviate from that thus enforcing weapon bans that would shake the meta up. I do understand why someone with 10 000 hours on soldier would be salty about there being a strong counter to him but not including this clique mentality as a reason for many of the bans seems like an oversight.
If we ban every form of weapon
All they could do is talk
(This includes fists so heavy doesn't have an advantage here)
This was really interesting, if you would continue on with this would that be great
i really liked this video, and i would really enjoy seeing the highlander version of it :+)
Only thing that broke is your inspection animation 2:57
it's weird how sense TF2 didn't get an update in many years after Jungle Inferno, it wasn't until said update was called recent that I realized this video is 5 years old
edit: also im sorry but banning a weapon because it's doing what it's supposed to do by letting a class get past one of it's downsides with teamwork just kind of feels like the people in charge just were lazy and missed the whole point of the weapon. Just because a heavy gets to mid faster doesn't mean he's now immune to spys, charged headshots, or just learning how to out maneuver the slowest class in the game sense that wip boost lasts like 3 seconds or smth
The game is just simply not fun if someone is forced to main heavy. The class just sadly doesnt have a high skill ceilling
l'd like to see more videos like this, definitely. l already enjoy seeing the shit-fest that is OW channels clamouring to talk about reworks and balancing, so seeing talk about metagame about this game feels really refreshing and it sorta opens up ideas on how to play that l will never do in game.
Uh...I saw that the Dragon's Fury is banned. Why? Because it's a new weapon or people found something broken in it?
how does removing random crits effect sniper rifle, a weapon know to not have random crits EVEN IN STOCK?
Direct hit: interesting sidegrade from stock that has damage and proj. speed bonus, but gives you lack of splash, disabling spamming and some corner shots? OP!!11!1!!1
Ubersaw:Lol just stupidly direct upgrade? Looks EXTREMLY balanced.
The list was made firstly not to balance the game, but to remove items that comp. players don't use, because lack of skill in using situational sidegrades could put them in disandvantage. Lol using direct hit 4 2 mins to adapt to new rocket speed 2 hard 4 us.
3:00 You can hear the demoman breaking the right click on his mouse lmfao
you can hold right click to detonate the stickies fast
i genuinely don't get why "pointless" weapons are banned.
like legitimately small changes alter how you have to approach situations, and even if they don't you aren't going to find any quirks between clone items if there's no incentive to.
and banning a medic weapon for making pushing forwards too hard or a heavy equipment for pushing too easy is honestly anti competitive in my eyes.
instead of creating strategies to counter others it just stagnates the scene, and honestly despite enjoying competitive games from smash bros and conventional fighters all the way to stick empires and minecraft bedwars, i just can't get into 6's because the playstyle is just so limited, there's a severe lack of freedom that's missing, which isn't bad on its own but the core mechanics of the base game, it makes certain classes like heavy and engineer basically useless because having to hold a point as a engi isn't advantageous when pushing further is best and the teams nullify spy.
which again, characters being bad isn't a hit competitively, there's low teirs in every competitive game, but usually you're given a lot of mechanical freedom whether it be a large selection of playstyles or combos so difficult you can only master a few. banning a speed buff to heavy and defence based medic weapon is really stupid in my opinion.
like medic for example, you can switch characters in TF2 mid match, one player has an offensive kit and one person has a defensive kit, and then the person with the offensive medic switches to a heavy when defence is needed and the defensive medic switches to scout when they can push back.
balance is important but it should be exclusively to even the playing field, it should NEVER be used to dictate playstyles cause that leads to stagnation, like there isn't this much stigma against smash bros competitive in the games community which is honestly why i was curious enough to watch.
I would love a more extensive look at each weapon's ban
Yes to videos about current bans!
Make one for HL
Is this heaven?
Edit: wow you looked like an invite player on the gameplay
i think its just footage from last season when i peed around with friends in low