What Is Every Banned Weapon in Competitive TF2 and Why
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- Опубліковано 1 чер 2024
- 6s is notorious and often times chastised by casual players for the weapon bans and whitelist used. Often times this comes with the accusation of catering weapon bans to restrict offclassing potential. I go through every single banned weapon in RGL and talk about why it's banned, if it deserves a ban, and how the meta would look if it were allowed
Timestamps courtesy of @mi33ingname :
0:00 Intro
5:38 Soda Popper
7:30 Bonk! Atomic Punch
10:38 Crit-a-Cola
12:18 Flying Guillotine
14:13 Mad Milk
16:26 Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol
17:58 Cow Magler 5000
22:51 Disciplinary Action
26:00 B.A.S.E. Jumper
29:38 Reserve Shooter
31:58 Natasha
33:02 Fists Of Steel
34:26 Rescue Ranger
38:32 Short Circuit
41:33 Wrangler
44:18 Quick-Fix
47:25 Vaccinator
50:42 Machina
51:30 Sydney Sleeper
53:10 Jarate
54:26 Diamondback
56:06 Outro - Ігри
![[TF2] Weapons Ruined by One Stat](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/11xq4kog79I/mqdefault.jpg)
I know it's probably less interesting to watch visually, but I figured it was a useful graphic to include regardless. Hope you enjoy!
i like having a graphic! even though i usually use your videos like a podcast where i can just listen, having something i can look at but wont lose out on anything by not looking, that makes it nicer when i have the time to do so
Having a graphic is better than no graphic, I may be listening to most of the video, but I appreciate that you did this for anyone watchin
I like this format
I don't even play competitive, and I can already understand and stand by the Cow Mangler not being allowed:
In a _competitive_ setting, where coordination is common, this rocket launcher basically invalidates engineer as a class with a coordinated push, which gives Darwin's Danger Shield vibes
The beef people have about the base jumper is that comp people complained about so much that valve changed it, and then the comp people banned it anyway. The only people that were really affected by the change were the casuals who were abusing it in the first place.
the design of it is appalling regardless. floating in the air being very hard to hit/see while raining down insane damage, especially with the beggars and airstrike
@@krollic I wasn't addressing the design, I was addressing the reasoning behind the conflict over the item between competitive and casual bases. I didn't claim it was good or bad.
I don't recall comp players complaining about it, it was banned back then and still is now. valve's reasoning for banning it was that it was too hard to hit people who were abusing it's super high air accel strafe values and unlimited redeploys, they didn't specify that the change was for comp or a result of feedback from comp players
@@ammi5311 per the valve blog post that revealed the base jumper nerf: "These changes are based on online community discussions, emails, playtime data, conversations with players of all skill ranges, and play testing.
Please continue to send us your feedback through the Contact Form on the right taskbar (under "Contact Us"). Hearing from you helps us prioritize our work and influences the direction the game moves in."
in the entire blog post from June 20th, 2017, competitive is not mentioned once.
@@ammi5311 so you're just imagining that back when valve approached the comp scene in 2015 in preparation for MYM, comp players complained about base jumper and so valve waited until over a year after the comp update released (and valve comp was already fully dead) to nerf the base jumper in 2017 and then they hid that the real reason was because a handful of comp players complained?
lmao ok
Ok, but europe would bun the fucking shotgun if it came out in an update. Like, etf2l can be ridiculous
I mean, RGL also bans too much but the they don't piss themselves at the thought of a detonator-jump
Wait, why would they ban the shotgun if it wasnt a stock weapon?
@@cubanwargaming4879 "They are literally giving the scattergun to half the classes, this is overpowering soldier" or some shit
@@oiytd5wugho Have they considered that maybe, just maybe, most classes are much more well suited to using their primary weapons rather than the shotgun due to their slowness compared to scout, and should only use them when finishing off an enemy?
@@danolantern6030 who is they. no one is saying this except the person youre replying to lol
It says a lot about the Crit-a-cola when nobody knows how it works.
in fairness it's been changed so much over the years, I still thought it gave scout a speed boost lmao
@@twpsynI mean the last time it was changed was like probably half a decade ago.
@@TJ-hg6opyou haven’t changed your diaper in half a decade
Its so tragic that Engie only has two secondary unlocks, and *both* of them are some of the worst designed weapons from a game design standpoint in the entire game.
Equally sad when the engineer mains says one of them is (overpowered and believe it needs to be nerfed)
Because the wrangler IS overpowered and deserves to be nerfed 💀
Trippling the health and doubling the dps of a sentry at the press of a button doesn’t exactly scream balance.
@@eruptorr9103 for real. Like imagine making a sentry so healthy 4 dh rockets don't break it without any repairs.
I always found it funny because most casuals genuinely think we ban like most of the weapons when in reality only a small fraction of weapons are banned, and the vast majority of those are scout/medic unlocks because they're really effing strong classes.
Unless you're in Europe
💀 @@zigro433
its honestly a bit infuriating sometimes considering that the list is just like there in the open for literally anyone to look up in seconds its not like buried on some old forum page somewhere people are just confidently wrong
I mean, it's not a wrong assumption though.
Displinary action, GRU, buffalo steak? All banned to ensure there is a zero percent chance your pocket soldier would have to start playing heavy.
The gunslinger used to be banned because it might make engineer ran more often and we can't allow that, then once it was clear that gunslinger wasn't doing shit for engies 6s viability, it was unbanned.
Most weapons just don't risk shaking up the 2 scout, 2 soldier, demo medic meta. But any weapon that did risk that was banned.
Which i mean, i get it. Just let's not pretend that isn't the case.
@@moonmelons It's about balancing the classes for the format. The way you're framing it makes it seem so much more sinister when in reality, for example, having to take down a wrangled sentry with only 6 players is just infuriating and unfun. The wrangler was intended for a server with double the amount of players and unlimited projectiles.
Regarding Fists of Steel, I believe it's not so much about damage reduction, but more about medic getting uber faster when healing heavy with fists of steel even when the weapon is holstered (tho heavy has to redeploy it every time the beam disconnects). Big Joey has a video about it.
yeah it's this, the fact that it basically functions as a medic buff while still being able to use your minigun is wild
It's funny how Sleeper is banned while most of community sees it as crutch.
It's banned not because it's terribly strong but because it lowers the quality of the game. It's a weapon that overly incentivizes bodyshots, staying scoped in and covering people in stinky piss. It's not fun to have minicrits applied to you from across the map with relative ease.
@@krollicbeing killed across the map is funnier than being covered in piss??????
@@ps-frag read my comment again
its because of the charge rate and makes bodyshotting better than stock
Have you noticed that in competitive, there are less players and that each is more competent than your regular casual player?
6s specifically is a fast format that can turn around quickly, and the lower playercount makes kills more valuable.
Jarate itself is immensely powerful, and considering that it's banned, a tool that would let you coat a player in Jarate IN A COORDINATED TEAM WITH ACTIVE COMMUNICATION is pretty strong if you ask me.
You get one kill and the enemy team is immediately at a disadvantage, the condition isn't even a headshot.
Ever been in a Casual match with coordinating players? They stomp the other team, especially when abusing certain weapons and maps.
I would have never thought that I'd look forward to someone talk about competitive tf2 for an hour but here we are
I think more weapons would be viable if every class would be restricted to 1 slot, allowing variety in classes used and weapons. It is so weird that competitive developed into 2 soldiers and 2 scouts and now every ban has to cater to maintaining this convention
europe has banned the wrap assassin this current season, quoting unhappy premiership players in their news post as to why. they also have reverted the gunboats plugin they were using for a few seasons that made soldiers lose less health when rocket jumping near enemies. they also stated their interest in their latest 6v6 news post about banning the winger, solemn vow and picking up weapons.
just some recent additional info i am presenting with no opinion offered.
I do think it's pretty funny the reason is "players were pissy"
I can't say they're wrong, bleed is annoying, but it's still funny
literally none of these are problematic
noone uses the wrap assassin because no more uber building
the winger practically gets rid of scouts secondary damage
picking up weapons hasnt been useful since they nerfed dropped mediguns
solemn vow ok i guess?
Thats fucking stupid lmfao
At what point do you just go play CoD
Solemn vow makes sense, winger makes a bit less sense but i still get it, but PICKING UP WEAPONS?
3:30 i think the easiest way to sum up the difference in opinion is that in na items are allowed by default and banned if they become an issue whereas in eu items are banned by default and only allowed after they're proven to add a fair and fun dimension to 6s. the eu whitelist actually reminds me of the new player whitelists that some pug servers use to encourage new players to learn the meta and "rules" before breaking them
me when 1984 whitelist bans atomizer and not loch 😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
whats wrong with loch?
No one like weapon that do long range burst damage, loch 'n' load make demoman similar to sniper but you can do reactive dodge instead predict where his shot go and no instakill when being 150 HP or lower but shoot faster before the reload.
@@michaeljo9384 Do you think Sniper should be banned?
@@whirl3690 No because less class variety lead to samey gameplay and sniper is a off class (or not the META classes) in competitive, also sniper require skill (unless cheating) and can be countered by flanking, spamming, dodging which the META classes (scouts, soldiers, demo) can easily or use teammate as meatshield as medic. Sniper only need a nerf or rework to banned weapons in 6's like Jarate, Machina, etc. So sniper is balanced and shouldn't be banned unless using the banned weapon without nerfs or rework which Valve doesn't give anymore now or at huge sightline map like Hightower, 2fort and especially wutville or no / barely any viable flanking routes map like dustbowl or in casual where people doesn't communicate often to do counterplay to sniper.
@@michaeljo9384Sniper is easy to play compared to every other classes in competitive.
Every other classes has to worry about their position, their ammo count, their health, along with their aim; should they play slower and aim better or rely on their flicks to land shots while moving around ?
Sniper only has 1 thing to worry about : Aiming. And in the vast, VAST majority of matches, you counterpick their Sniper with your own Sniper. Trying to kill the Sniper withour your own Sniper is a very easy way of eating multiple -150 before having the CHANCE to kill him.
I am very surprised Sniper as a whole isn't banned.
Yeah baby, you boy got a sonic double cheeseburger with bacon, a large strawberry limeade and fries this video is a straight banger. I love how my favorite weapons are banned in a game mode I don’t play.
Taunts prove that TF2 is P2W
It's worth keeping in mind that banned weapons aren't necessarily banned because they're too strong (though they often are) but there are also banned weapons that make combat unenjoyable and lower the quality of gameplay. Disciplinary action, wrangler, rescue ranger, madmilk are examples of weapons that are combination of either too powerful and/or unfun to play against and are banned. Weapons like (imo) the cow mangler, base jumper, natasha, sydney sleeper are not very strong but are very unenjoyable to play against and not particularly interesting to play with either. I don't think pubbers realize that something like 95%+ of unlocks are permitted.
Yeah, but also, casual players don't understand under what conditions the different competitive formats work and how the average skill level is higher and the player count lower (so that weapons like the Kunai and Bazaar Bargain would be considerably weaker as the enemy team is not made of fodder but of competent players who would want to prey on your weaker starting point).
i don't think most pubbers realize weapon bans exist at all. And even those that do don't care at all anymore. The days of people caring about comp who don't play comp are long gone.
@@peterisawesomeplease no. you only have to look through the comments on recent videos to see otherwise
@@krollic These video get almost no views. Almost no one is seeing videos about comp. The people people commenting on these videos are not anywhere close to average pub players. Most pub players never give comp a thought.
Sure back in the era of the match making updates more people cared. I remember people fighting about this stuff on r/tf2. But these days? No. No one cares(on average).
Cow mangler is crazy overpowered, you can delay pushes by a significant amount by just spamming the charge shot at the door their combo is coming, if both soldiers do it you can buy so much time or do so much damage for basically no risk, crazy risk vs reward when holding a point on Uber disad. There’s also a crazy risk vs reward imbalance on certain mids, namely metalworks which make it stupid.
another thing about the diamondback is when you’re fighting a spy you don’t know they have crits because of their disguise so it really affects how you approach the interaction like you wouldn’t charge a spy with your uber saw if you knew he had a pocket laser beam
Isn't spy super weak and all? I think it's more interesting if the spy manage to get some kills instead of just giving info at best and dying
As a player who always respected comp but never played it, weapons that minicrit seem like a big issue mostly because mini-crits take no fall off.
If minicrits took falloff weapons like reserve shooter would be far less oppressive
Another thing about the bonk is that for a flank scout, it allows you to play far more aggressively, since it is very easy to use like a dead ringer and escape their back line
Banning a weapon thats too powerful makes sense, if a weapon is so strong you feel forced to use it thats a problem, its also boring if everyone is using the same overpowered item.
But it feels like europe banned a lot of stuff just for the sake of banning it, not being good is an extremely bad ban reason, youre just removing iptions people may like to have for no reason
Thank you for this video! I know Woolen made a vid on this, like, 6 years ago so it's good to have a new video. Not a lot has changed.
I think I wanna voice an opinion here.
I've been following comp TF2 since i55 grand finals, and I hear & see the opinion that if a better weapon would get unbanned, then everyone would be forced to use it. That is a valid stance to take, because sometimes some tools are just broken (Vaccinator).
But - isn't that the case already? People utilize the Three Rune Blade or Wrap because they are super powerful niche tools. For sure they allow for more interesting gameplay strategy overall; quicker Uber-charging and all that.
...But couldn't that be said about most of the banned unlocks as well?
Like let's say the Crit-a-cola gets unbanned. Neat, now Ubered Scouts are broken as all hell - people would be "forced" to use it on last pushes... just like Gunboats in general gameplay, as they allow for faster heals for your team.
I just find it a little bit obtuse, however yeah "fun" triumphs "unfun" I guess
I mean this is always how comp tf2 has worked and felt for years. It's what's "fun" under someone's definition but never the collective. You wonder why the RGL cup he referred to didn't change anything because the only demographic that matters is invite; nothing else. I think the critocola would add some interesting dynamics since a scout wouldn't full time run it. It's complete ass without being ubered so you'd be down a secondary. But if a scout died for the push into last teams would have that scout come up on it. I always enjoyed the niche weapons where they were good in a situation or two. That's personally my problem with competitive at the moment.
I remember when the BASE Jumper was first released and most players did not understand the nerf that came down on it.
Then we saw clips of the 6s unhittable soldier dancing around in the sky using the unlimited redeploy.
no, nerfing a weapon that's only overpowered in the highest level of play is a dumb thing to do.
@@derp6443Imo it still needed a nerf, infinite redeploys essentially means you had 3 different directions to throw off a sniper's aim, as well as the ability to stay in air, well out of the effective range of the other 8 classes. Sure, the chip damage of an entire casual team is going to kill you anyways, but in a smaller match, you basically get to dominate the enemy team with minimal damage in return
@@concerningindividual629 It was a perfect case of a weapon they should have left the same in casual and just left banned in 6s. The same point this video makes about mad milk.
@@derp6443 The problem wasnt that it was nerfed, its that it was nerfed in a way that didnt really fully address why it was hated in comp (the sheer power of dodging and changing your momentum to mess with people's aim, while also affectin the reasons people liked it in casual, the ability to use it for avoiding fall damgee, float around for market kills and to pair with the base jumper. The nerfs it has were meant for comp but I feel much more affected its casual uses instead. THATS the nerf's problem. People in casual never used it for movement dodging, they used it to slow down fallin so that air aim was easier and the one time open and lack of air control more so hurts the casual's ability for aiming and gardening with it. I feel if the nerf was that it slowed ALL momentum gradually instead of just fall speed abruptly and you had to keep it out to get its affect, it would not have affected casual nearly as much while still nerfing its viability in comp. Casual uses may even apprecialte the slowing effect for the airstrike aim I bet at leasts to an extent. Just one idea.
And base jumper is still banned and now we are left with a worthless ''weapon''. Thank you guys.
10:52 No, it's AFTER your first shot, or even your first melee swing.
There was one small period of time between this iteration of the weapon and it's most broken state where crit a cola acted same as now(aka you only start getting mini crit weakness after your first shot) BUT you could use it with melee and melee won't activate the mini crit weakness, now even using melee instantly activated the mini crits weakness.
I expected to hear the VSauce theme when you started to thoroughly explain why.
53:15 Not sure if anyone already said this but the Sidney sleeper lists "no random crits" because it originally could random crit, so when they changed it they decided to list that it could no longer random crit
"The base jumper is so broken" is something I never would have expected to hear, and yet after a year and a half of comp I completely understand why and that brings me SO MUCH PAIN
@@ammi5311 itss op becuse it makes you literally near impossible to shoot out of the air if you're actually good at the game and not using it for its intended purpose of funny air strike kills, stoppin fall damage, and crutched market gardens. Its literally awful to play agaainst for similar reasons OW pre-rework pharah was agony to play against. Even very talented direct hit users often cant hardly hit a good base jumper. Its fundimentally unfair. It has nothin to do with "It denials your circle jurking montage", its that it feels horrible to play against and generally isnt something people like using neither.
@@ammi5311i think the comp scene is right on this one, its not healthy for the game to force players to pick an entirely different class they might not even be good at because 1 guy on the enemy team wanted to use 1 of several other more balanced and interesting secondaries. The whole point of having multiple classes is to let players with different skills contribute to games. Why should someone who's not good at hitscan be forced to permanently swap off because 1 guy made their whole class unviable?
@@lt2660 Well you see in, the very experimental Valve format of "12s" you just get out of the way while your two heavies play anti-air. Then you use the remaining 99% of your current life to play the game as you would normally.
I wonder if in the world where engi is 6s meta, spy has his toolkit crippled because he can just turn off engi. Makes him "unviable" after all.
@@slyseal2091 I only play 12v12 casual and spy sucks there too lol
@@lt2660 And why is that? Please, don't reduce it to shotgun > revolver, elaborate
RGL 6's ban reasons
Looping taunts: 3rd person abuse
Pyrovision: Annoying. Massive in-game advantage by removing lots of clutter
Noisemaker: Annoying. Gives away player's position
Scout Elf Set: Gives away player's position
Bombinomicon: Obstructive. Gives away DR Spy's position
Soda Popper: Higher damage output than Stock Scattergun. Artificial splash damage immunity
Bonk: Get out of jail free card. Downsides are negligible and easily diluted
Cola: Free damage boost. Downsides are negligible if you camp with it
Milk: Life steal. Spammable with locker
PBPP: Higher damage output than Stock Pistol with life steal
Guillotine: Promotes being overly campy. 5.1 second recharge that can deal up to 90 damage
Cow Mangler: Stock Rocket Launcher with Infinite ammo
Disciplinary Action: Gets Heavy to mid too easily
Natascha: Completely neutralizes Scout, Soldier and Demo
Fists of Steel: Too good at tanking. Stalling on last
Rescue Ranger/Wrangler/Short Circuit: Stalling on last
Quick-Fix: Uber ramp up. Pocketing
Vaccinator: Overpowered. Can cap under Uber
Machina: Free damage boost
Sydney Sleeper: Used for spamming body shots
Jarate: Free damage boost. Spammable with locker
Diamondback: Snowball effect. Preys on bad teams
B.A.S.E Jumper: Inherent Air Strike/Stickybomb Launcher synergy. Honestly more of a skill issue than anything
That's what I at least know about for the bans. I'm sorry I keep editing this and making you re-apply hearts to this comment
Isn't provision banned because it removes some stuff from the map that makes it inherently unfair?
@@jadenknott Yes, that too
Comp players are the definition of "optimize the fun out of the game". I mean, I know this is competitive, but this list reads like that one kid on the playground that makes up new rules on the fly.
@@yournewworldleader3584That is what they are. They convinced Valve to arbitrarily nerf weapons because they were interrupted during their epic frag comp by someone having fun.
Except bans are there to make game _more_ fun, because, surprisingly, people playing the game want to enjoy playing the game.
What really gets on my nerves is how many things were hard nerfed or banned under the logic of "it allows Heavy to reach mid faster" (eg GRU, Eviction Notice, Disciplinary Action). If making your game mode fun relies on an entire playable class not being able to reliably participate in the major fights, then maybe the format has some bigger problems that you should be dealing with instead.
Heavy is able to participate in major fights, just the defensive ones. The idea of trying to restrict heavy rushing to mid is that his class role is indomitable CQC that is really slow and he becomes progressively more of a headache to deal with the fewer the number of people there are. There's nothing stopping you from attempting to play him without things that attempt to circumvent his balancing downside. But if heavy becomes obligatory from weaknesses being circumvented, then sniper becomes obligatory, and now things are going to be playing out a lot slower.
You say that like slower isn't better.
@@Yawyna124 As I said, it sounds like that's more of a problem with 6s as a game mode than an imbalance in items
@@whensomethingcriesagain It's 6s fault that there are a bunch of items that undermine intended balancing mechanisms?
@@Yawyna124 It's 6s' fault if something as simple as "Heavy can participate in the initial mid fight" apparently makes it untenable. You don't see this being some huge problem in regular 12v12 or Highlander after all
i thought the bonk was banned because of the 3rd person camera while under its effects
btw you only get hit by mini crits with the crit a cola if you shoot once, if you drink it and never shoot you don't get hit by mini crits
i don't think that's considered bannable, since the only taunts banned are infinitely looping ones that you can cancel whenever you want
also the natascha, i remember playing in a custom maps cup that had almost no weapons banned and i used the natascha to hold and, if the point is closed enough, you can make any escape almost impossible because they walk so slowly they can't even reach a safe zone before dying, and even if they do escape it will be easier for your teammates to chase them down
@@abictoIt's surprising how many people don't know you can wiggle on the strafe keys to make its effects almost negligible. It's a much bigger impact in the air than on the ground for sure, where you really can't just use that trick. This is also another reason why the sandman has literally nothing going for it lol
@@OmegaRC59 i guess the fact that it's an automatic makes people forget idk, although even if you strafe you're still taking a little bit of slow and it's harder to fight while doing this
@@OmegaRC59 the thing is that you can't surf the bullets to escape
Just want to say quick-fix only builds 2 seconds faster than stock. Its unbanned in 4s and its really just not good if teams know how to actually shoot players
2s if other medic over healed your teammate or you are gaining uber via self damaging scout, otherwise quick-fix doesn't reach to 142%< over heal of teammate hp which mean it doesn't apply uber penalty after said 142%
@@Jasiuc330 Fun fact valve actually fixed that bug for the quick fix and it made it really shit so they reverted it
@@h20gamezwhich is weird since the weapon is as anti pocket as possible and they couldve just buffed the uber build rate bonus to like 30%
People really underestimate natascha heavy, most heavies don't use it because they don't know how or they actually have compassion.
Nastasha's slowing down and 20% dmg resistance is pure evil, had a game with a vacc medic and a natascha heavy... those two would refuse to die nasty combo, and I've been under the care of vaccinator, dat thing is broken, it makes the heavy a true tank, but I rewards you with questionable positioning.
Now thankfully in casual most people are either goofin around or just suck, which thank god I don't want to encouter that combo in my life ever again e.e
It's not impossible mind you, but it's the ulitmate bullet soak in the game and it's not punished by snail movement unlike the brass beast. But I wouldn't want 3-people focusing down two enemies while he rest are still active in killing our team.
It sees a lot of play in Highlander for this reason, you get a lot of control over the game for very little downside in the grand scheme of things
@@Grapevin Yikes! wouldn't want to play agaisnt something like that, I mean it's not so bad if you focus down the heavy, but as long as it doesn't have a vac medic should be manageable. But yeah that gun is stupid and not fun if you are a mobile class.
I have a Hale's Own Natasha and I actually know what I'm doing. Ha ha.
@@ludwigiapilosa508 Yes and u going to hell (no your not but that's pretty evil hahahah)
Insane how you're pumping *actually* interesting content every day, keep it up!
-rep microsoft edge user
Why 6v6s became the standard match setup for competitive TF2, I'll never understand since it was painfully obvious that the developers of this game built the games core balance around the 12 unique classes all being used in tandem with each other during a match. It's like if they halved the number of pawns in competitive chess.
All of these weapons and "problematic" playstyles become benign once you have more than like four people running around a point.
I wouldn't be surprised if it's just because, getting 12 dudes together to play tf2 is easier than 18/24
The Pretty Boy's healing is pretty negligible, its only really good for mitigating afterburn.
"Why does no one watch comp tf2?"
I don't play 6's but the diamond back even in the environment of getting a stab causes you to die no matter what... it will still take some time and that can be enough time for the spy to pull out the 102 crit (possibly even another shot) for whoever's in LOS for your team to get an easy clean up because I would at least think spy is more of an opener for a full on push.
scout does around the same damage at the range at which you fight diamondback spies and he doesnt need any melee kills for that
literally QUIT HAVING FUN
Balancing weapons between 6s and Casual is a fool's errand cause the modes are different to the point of being different games. 6s is class-restricted coordinated 6v6 and Casual's 12v12 class-unlimited with randoms, so it's interesting that any unlocks carry between the 2 modes at all given just how different they are. Honestly many of the bans discussed in the video are reasonable for the game that 6s is. The problem is that Casual players assume that statements on weapons are in the context of their gamemode since it's the most popular
TF2 has a unique problem with its competitive and casual modes being different games. Other games play similarly with their respective casual and competitive options, thus the games have consistent and approachable identities. I think the biggest factor that feeds vitriol towards competitive TF2 from casual players is that, because competitive TF2 is a different game from Casual clusterfuck TF2, calling 6s "competitive TF2" implies that it's the definitive version of the game and that it's more important than the version a majority of players experience. The game's marketing with equal focus on all 9 mercs simply never advertised that the "best" way to play the game is with 1 med, 1 demo, 2 soldiers, and 2 scouts, specifically on a handful of 5cp and koth maps. Competitive games especially thrive on simplicity. CS:GO is good guys shoot bad guys. It's simple and marketable for your average person that doesn't care about games but wants to watch something or follow the personality of a specific competitive player. TF2 traded its simplicity in favor of character and fun, which are both factors that are unattractive for the giant formless audiences that competitive games require to prosper
Another reason for the massive player gap between comp and Casual is that TF2 was advertised as the "everyman's FPS", which isn't what 6s is. TF2 has classes for sniping, Quake movement shooting ( scout, soldier, demo ), building management, healing, stealth, and getting easy frags ( pyro and heavy ). Whatever mood of FPS you feel like playing, TF2 has an option. 6s is very specifically optimized to make the Quake aspects of TF2 as enjoyable --> to play
In this video I learned that pyro, my main class, has no banned item. Like, seriously? Not even the scorch shot? The detonator? Thermal thruster? "Oh pyro is a bad class" really? That's the argument comp have? The team has 3 projectiles classes and a medic. How can pyro be bad against that composition? Not that I care, like 95% of the people that are actually playing TF2, I don't care about 6s. I can't even believe I sit through a 1 hour long video about banned items in 6s. Maybe it's the lack of updates o.o
small edit: ok so I think most people didn't understand my comment, and I am to blame for it. the major point of this comment is to say that I'm surprised that pyro has literally no banned items, not even the ones that are unfun to play against like the scorch shot. I don't see the argument of pyro being a bad class for 6's as an excuse to not ban some of its items.
pyro doesnt have good mobility or damage, and entirely relies on reflects. he cant really do anything against scout, and its better to just have another soldier instead of having a guy that sometimes reflects rockets
If Pyro was good, people would be playing Pyro more often. Pyro absolutely sucks against the two 185 HP Scouts that are almost always present on the enemy team. Pyro just gets shredded by unreflectable Scattergun shots from outside of flamethrower range, and if the enemy Soldiers refuse to send rockets to the Pyro, Pyro lacks ranged options. It gets even worse if one of the Soldiers switches to a shotgun in response to your full-time Pyro shenanigans. Pyro's main upside is the ability to deny uber with airblast.
@@SolarLight I got a response from demoknight tf2 himself. that's it, I just completed life. nothing will peak this.
@@SolarLight In casual or 6s? Because I do just fine with pyro in casual.
@@wisemysticaltree568Obviously he talks about 6s Pyro is completly different beast depending on gamemode.
Yeah some of these weapon banned I understand. Stuff like mad milk and jarate are already pretty strong in casual given in last point defense, you can spam the one of the liquids and make holding the point easier. Banning the Nash alone for annoying factor is understandable
Find it funny that the gru and eviction notice were nerf were nerf specifically because heavy can go quicker to go to mid. However it turns heavy going to mid is not that powerful. So that nerf was for nothing(if only vavle did weapon balance updates but at last)
TF2 team trying to turn casual into competitive was the most "Devs dont play their own game" move they made
Balancing what is allowed in Competitive so that it won't become boring is so weird. With how TF2 weapons are, it feels to me like the perfect middle ground is so small that you can easily miss it.
I haven't seen much of Competitive tf2 myself anyway, so idk. I like TF2 for being wacky and that's why the only competitive I have ever seen was from Salty Phish's series, which is absolutely hilarious
Gut feeling about Heavy to Mid is that it would probably be fine balance wise. It would probably just mess with the flow and not even be very fun for the Heavy in question. You have to have a very particular taste to enjoy playing tank in any game really
Fantastic video! It's rare to see someone who is both well spoken, as well as knowledgeable about the game - I'd love to see more long form discussion/podcast videos like this.
The huntsman cannot random crit. I belive the syndney sleeper could random crit on release since it coulnt get headshots, it was quickly removed for obvious reasons.
I think he was just jokingly referring to how abysmal the hit detection for that weapon is. @wgetJane recently made a video pointing out that the hitboxes used for determining the closest part of the model actually don't rotate, stick outward, and lie flat, making the cardinal direction of the victim effect how headshots are detected. You can shoot someone in the exact same spot, in the exact same way, and it'll still vary based on whether you're facing north or east. According to wget, this entire issue can be solved by changing a single line of code.
Underrated channel and fantastic video.
Scout
5:38 Soda Popper
7:30 Bonk! Atomic Punch
10:38 Crit-a-Cola
12:18 Flying Guillotine
14:13 Mad Milk
16:26 Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol
Soldier
17:58 Cow Magler 5000
22:51 Disciplinary Action
Multi-Class
26:00 B.A.S.E. Jumper
29:38 Reserve Shooter
Heavy
31:58 Natasha
33:02 Fists Of Steel
Engineer
34:26 Rescue Ranger
38:32 Short Circuit
41:33 Wrangler
Medic
44:18 Quick-Fix
47:25 Vaccinator
Sniper
50:42 Machina
51:30 Sydney Sleeper
53:10 Jarate
Spy
54:26 Diamondback
adding these, thanks!
It's crazy to me to think that my favorite weapon in TF2 of all time, the Reserve Shooter, ends up being too oppressive in 6s it has to be banned, when (as a casual player) I've always felt the spread could do with being tightened slightly to actually land those mid-range pop-up shots better. I find great joy in denying bombing soldiers if I'm lucky to be good enough with it, but I'm not a bomber myself, so I suppose I can see why swapping for the mantreads isn't a feasible or enjoyable enough solution, or that doing so can break down into rock-paper-scissors between soldiers.
Shotguns actually have better accuracy in comp due to random spread being disabled
Another point to add about natascha is that it also hard denies any rocket jumps, though I don't know if it would be a common problem with heavy x bomb soldier matchups
Super glad for this video! (Actually surprised you took my suggestion if you were already planning for it) so I'll likely comment on some stuff you mention with regards to certain unlocks (As a Medic player mostly)
Guillotine/Cow Mangler: I'm super in favor of like you say, anything that just makes Medic not as much of an annoying or even potentially miserable class to play due to randomly getting one shot by essentially; a free spamming tool (I'd dislike Loch & Load for similar reasons, as well but at least that has ammo as it's semi downside).
Crit-a-Cola: Actually somehow never thought about giving a Scout who used the purple can uber (Considering if they are good with meatshots) to actually be rather deadly (especially in context of 6s where most Scouts can aim pretty good) So I might try that now in casual lol.
Short Circuit/Wrangler: Even in a casual play setting, I'd find both of engi's secondaries to be (not only a bit strong) but just makes Medic's job a lot more boring and painful with trying to make a push into last, Wrangler is for sure much worse in a smaller play experience like 6s. Most sacks for a Wrangled sentry I imagine would take out 2 of the attacking team's players (maybe a third if there's a Spy sap sac).
Quick-Fix: Ah yes my wheel house, Quick-Fix is for sure stronger on defensive holds (Saccing for a med is almost impossible and just allows for cheeky escapes even if you are caught out with help via your Soldier/Demoman). Along with that the play of uber add/dis which is about all you have on Medic to make it interesting just throws it out the window as you both just basically rub against each other and spam super fast build rate ubers that are just way less interesting then stock.
Vaccinator: Sorta similar to Quick-Fix (Easy as hell to hold last for a long time, I know some team in EU would have a temporary medic they swap to if their main med died and they used Vac till the real one respawned forget the name thou), I'd argue however arrow tanking via healing someone while they got a bubble on em is insanely strong (Even in casual since you out heal with arrow tanking compared to beaming em while still building uber & you can just chain bubbles), It might struggle a little if you use it offensively into last against stock uber, but even then keeping your Demoman or someone else valuable alive with the push via arrow tanking is absurd.
Machina/Sydney Sleeper: One shotting Medic via body shots that charges faster, just annoying in same way as Guillotine/Cow Mangler. Plus as far I know, there's not many 5CP/Koth maps where you actually hit the max range for Sniper being unable to hit you compared to something like most Payload maps.
Jarate: I'd say it's like Wangler in the sense that it's strong and even broken in both casual and 6s, the main appeal is for sure just allowing easy pushes for his team in trade off for Sniper's SMG by making him a weird semi support character that really shouldn't have it, plus I'd add in that you can just keep spamming it from spawn room from last to keep a constant debuff on the enemy team or even choking off an area with followup spam from your Soldier/Demoman (Same with Mad Milk).
I wonder how jarate and mad milk would be if they had the same charge meter as the gas passer
and maybe the gas passer could get their meter I am not sure about this one, on the one hand that would make it spammable on lasts and stuff but on the otherside that wouldnt be much more effective than spamming the scorch shot, maybe even less
Hot Take: TF2 was NEVER meant to be competitive. It was clearly meant to be a casual game, yet it was turned into one by the community anyways. Same for Left 4 Dead 2.
Yes please more hour long videos about competitive stuff!
Personally i hate 6v6 and think its inferior to highlander.
Do you think the Fists of Steel are banned because of a bug that allows for more ubercharge? I think I remember that being a thing recently, and idk if it was patched, if not that might be why they are banned
More likely just because they are very strong. If you are defending last as heavy with uber disadvantage, it's even easier to run into the spawn with fists to survive if the enemy uber goes on you, thus even more likely to waste their charge.
That's not a bug but an intended mechanic. Medic builds faster when healing someone who isn't fully buffed. Fist of Steel makes it so the heavy can never be fully buffed. It's the same concept as building with basher as scout.
yes it is because of this
Quick question, if the pomson 6000 got buffed to where you could consistently hit the projectile while keeping all of it's current abilities do you think it would get banned? And if it didn't get banned do you think it would make engineer a viable class for 6s full time? I also love your videos btw, honestly I kinda want to play comp now thanks to your videos. (had to fix some of my wording)
id say probably no for both but who knows depending on the changes
@@Wild_Rumpusuber drain still exists therefore its banned
@@Wild_Rumpus oki thanks!
I mean, I guess, but it would be difficult to hit medics anyways since they probably aren’t running straight at you with an Uber saw like casual, instead being behind power classes.
I think the Fists of Steel are banned because of a bug that abuses the lesser overheal on wearer to let uber build at full speed as long as the beam doesn't disconnect, you don't even have to keep the fists out, Heavy can play as normal and medic gets max uber build.
You could make a follow up discussing different regions bans and/or highlander bans too!
All of the bans in this video make sense but why the fuck did the loch and load get banned a couple days ago
So what about direct hit used against base jumper, wouldn't that be good enough way to counter it
I don't understand many of the reasons behind these bans
Like flying guillitone, ask anyone and they'll say it's infinately more interesting and rewarding to hit someone with it than shooting the pistol, it's not even easier unless you expect someone to come out of the corner, then you say it would make things more "spammy" despite other classes being a lot more spammy by default and the fact guillitone has to recharge whereas pistol is just spammable even if not effective at range
" it's not even easier unless you expect someone to come out of the corner,"
There's your answer. It's long range harassment that does not need LoS from your side of things nor even necessarily risk to deal damage. Pistol is hitscan, so you need LoS to deal damage. You very much expect people to come around the corner on the opposite side of rollouts or during respawn waves, so you can, indeed, expect someone to come around the corner.
"despite other classes being a lot more spammy by default"
Rockets travel at 1,100 hammer units, grenades at 1,200-1500, and uncharged stickies at 900. The guillotine travels at 3,000 and is nowhere near as loud and colorful as rockets, grenades, and stickies, and is therefore far harder to dodge. Unlike rockets, it does not have fall-off, and unlike grenades, which also do not have fall-off, it travels a lot quicker with far less aggressive arc. Charged stickies come closer to their velocity, but also need charged to fire and then need to be detonated. It is also incentivized to use at long range since it gets 1.5 seconds removed off cooldown.
"pistol is just spammable even if not effective at range"
There's your answer between those two: guillotine is spammable, effective at close and long range, and, in fact, gets more effective from exceptional range.
Overall, it's 90 damage that is hard to dodge, relatively easy to hit at long ranges, and is incentivized for longer ranges.
@@Yawyna124 so it's just a matter of not giving the op close quarter class a realtively consistant long range weapon
Woolen sleevelet did a video a while back in this. How much has changed since then?
A lot of weapons have been unbanned since then. Pretty much every weapon that he mentions as a former ban (buffalo steak, gru, solemn vow etc) were still banned at the time. so consider this video a deeper dive into the still-existing bans basically
You spoke about heavy to mid being a less-than-desireable gamestate, but do you think it would become normal to see if disciplinary action were unbanned? I feel like heavy's strengths would be under-utilized for a majority of the team fight at the cost of soaking up way too much damage. Do you think it could incentivize the other team to run sniper to mid, causing a rock paper scissors effect?
that's the main thing that people don't want but I'm not even sure heavy to mid would be good to begin with
How can I get into a 6v6 and or Highlander team ? I can’t find any resources anywhere to find people
the best beginner resources right now in north america are newbie mixes and the tf2 coaching central discord
@@Wild_Rumpus thank you !
This is why I prefer Highlander.
Based HLchad
can you make a video about why is scout broken
Unban both the reserve shooter AND the parachute. Problem solved.
"6s is notorious and often times chastised by casual players for the weapon bans and whitelist used." Good.
How about a format where nothing is banned except for stock (including reskins), and I mean that in the strictest sense. Things like the PDA and Disguise Kit cant be used. Would it be awful? Yeah. Would it be funny? Probably.
rumpus popping off crazy mode recently
May I ask about other game modes like koth, payload race, payload? With different game modes comes with different dynamics and play styles like pyro can be more viable in koth rather than 5cp as an example and what about changing the winning requirements to help make some weapons or classes more viable. ( know it’s a big stretch but it’s a food for thought more than anything)
It's interesting that spammy weapons are banned except Scorch Shot (sometimes) considering it's the most infamous and hated spammy weapon in casual. And literal direct upgrade weapon such as 3rd degree isn't banned but Cow Mangler in 6s due to spam issues. Also Disciplinary Action (and several heavy's movement boosts weapon) is banned due to making heavy viable in or right outside middle point make the game stally or impossible to push. So instead playing less stally gamemode like KOTH or asymmetrical gamemodes where literally make stalemate win condition for RED team and breaking it is how to get to the win condition for BLU team (with stopwatch mode for each team have same chance to win) and where off-classes is more viable than only defending last point, breaking stalemates or other small niches. Kinda weird how highlander's map pools are that but 6's is fully 5CP only (except Valve's 6's where that 1 unbearable CTF map exist).
i thought they unbanned everything? was that overturned?
how long is the q time for comp tf2?
no one plays the in-game competitive queue, comp tf2 is played via 3rd party leagues and community pug groups, all run on community-run servers
dude, with the amount of unbanned weapons im suprised no one ran df pyro fulltime(i meant as in replacing a scout or a soldier). or maybe not enough people played df pyro for it to succed
DF has worse airblast and airblast is pyro's primary role in 6s
i wanted to say something about the fact that, yeah but its damage would probably counterract its slow airblast in anywhere else except defending but, overheal fucks up everything@@twpsyn
Why not ban stock weapons?
Because they aren't busted or unfun to fight against
@@switZ7Qstickybomb launcher
Stickybomb launcher is annoying for some players but then Scorch shot, Machina, Natasha exist (and other annoying weapons). Also stickybomb launcher is countered by not being in medium range, shooting the sticky before walking though even at chokepoint and practice dodging unlike Machina's annoying 173 bodyshot from very close / far away, scorch Shot & Natasha's removal of your dodging skill after being hit briefly.
I think in europe the reserve shooter and the detonator are banned for pyro [why? are they that op? ig the reserve shooter kinda makes sense]
like, pyro isn't played there, so if the reserve shooter was used maybe he'd be more viable. Most of the damage boost will go towards removing dmg falloff, and usually it's not a big dmg increase either way. And the detonator is just a must have.
The reserve shooter was a lot more problematic when you could just airblast people and use it. It's still very strong though because enemies launching themselves towards you while blast jumping naturally eat more pellets since they're closing in.
"Most of the damage boost will go towards removing dmg falloff"
It's significantly more damage than you think because min-crits are already not affected by damage fall-off, so the only damage decay is hitting a target with less pellets (and shotguns have fixed spread in comp, so they are significantly more consistent)
Im not exactly the most competitive player but Im a heavy main and making heavy get to mid faster doesnt seem like that big of a deal? Heavy's main weakness is his speed but his strengths have quite a few caveats to them. His DPS is high but he lacks burst and most classes can spam him around a corner before he has a chance to deal damage to them, his health is high but not *that* high and every class can kill him without even reloading their primary assuming they dont have falloff and a medic isnt present, and he relies on either a break in combat to heal up or a medic pocket to keep that health high, and his weird ramp-up mechanic makes it so him being faster also lowers his damage. That and if he for some reason had someone "pocketing" with a whip the soldier with said whip can't shoot rockets while speeding up the heavy and is kind of stuck to the heavy.
I think it's more to do with the fact that the whip gives Heavy the biggest speed boost out of any class, and the whip stacks with the GRU - potentially letting Heavy arrive to the starting midfight faster than a Scout, which is overkill and does not make the game better.
Heavy is also extremely unpopular among TF2 players and is also not very enjoyable to fight due to how slow and linear he is. If Valve wanted to make Heavy viable on offense, they should have given him a new primary weapon that is actually fun to use and fight against, rather than giving him a giga-speed-buff as a band-aid. I like to draw a comparison to Engi and his mini sentry. They didn't just speed up construction speed, they added new downsides to make mini sentries less good defensively as a compromise.
@@SolarLight I'm surprised people find Heavy unfun to fight (personally he's my favorite to fight outside of demoknight 1v1s) but if that's the general consensus among more competitive players than I can see why being faster than scout could be problematic
Though wouldn't the soldier being practically tethered to the Heavy and the heavy's health loss by the time they get to mid make it not the most viable strategy?
@@mrsirdba One of the Soldiers (the "pocket") typically does an Escape Plan rollout anyway, waits for crit heals to build up so that his Medic can buff him up to 300. You can do the same thing by whipping a Heavy, so you don't really lose anything by doing it.
@@SolarLight Ah I see
Okey this can only be binge watched. Be back in MILLION YEEARRS
in the world of fighting games, something is considered ban worthy if its deemed overcentralising (good to the point where it has a stranglehold over the metagame) or degenerate (makes the game overall less fun and/or trivializes skill).
Overall I think Rgl's ban list is very well done but etf2l's bugs me a bit since I really dont think being annoying is equivalent to being degenerate
sodapopper(overcrentalising)
bonk(a bit of both)
crit o cola(overcentralising)
flying guillotine(overcentralising)
mad milk (overcentralising)
pbpp(overcentralising kinda) i could see it being allowed if people wanted it. its allowed in ugc
cow mangler(degenerate) its a weird case where it isnt that much better but all of its advantages lead to lameness. fun fact i played in the experimental cup and one shot a scout with the charge shot while they were building. Thats why you always stay above 160 while building kids.
base jumper(Both)
reserve shooter(both) Ironically it would make soldier worse
disciplinary action(overcentralising?) after the steak and gru unban ive never actually seen heavy to mid so it might be ok for an unban i dunno
natasha(degenerate) textbook example of an option that causes you to win my limiting your oponents options for counterplay.
fists of steal(overcentralising) a fully overhealed fos heavy has 630 effective health which is as the wrangler has shown us, a lot for a team to get through. Last points give holding teams great positional advantage but they will often have to throw it away in order to physically shot the cap in scramble situations. the fos allows teams to take better advantage of positioning since they have this giant wall on the point that cant be killed without diverting the potential damage of most of the enemy team.
rescue ranger(overcentralising)
short circuit(DEGERNERATE)
wrangler(overcentralising)
quickfix(both)
vaccinator(both)
machina(overcentralising)
sydney's sleeper(degenerate) sniper doesn't need an easy mode
jarate(overcentralising)
diamondback(might actually be ok) In the same experimental cup i played the diamondback was allowed and weirdly nobody used it. spy is usally just used to get one pick so most people would prefer the letranger. The diamondback would make it a bit harder for spy to get in but he would be able to do a bit more once he is in. Unlike in casual the crits arent exactly free since you cant get any before an encounter and you do have the legitimate downside of having to give up the letranger
great video man. Wait a sec. ..OMG ITS YOUU!!! You're the guy from the tf2 coaching discord server HAHAHA hello!!!!!
So yall think the base jumper is op, if only medic had weapon that does more damage the farther away the enemy is, if only there was a class that could easily kill a stationary or slowly moving target in the air with a head shot, if only soldier had a rocket launcher that has faster projectiles and mini crits on airborne targets, if only competitive players could hit their shots, if only there was a class that can reflect projectiles. It’s such a shame none of these things exist … oh wait they do if only you used them it’s not like sniper has a (practically) infinite range hitscan sniper rifle with the highest burst damage in the game or a bow that can one shot all classes except for a overhealed heavy thats very easy to use and also has high sustained dps.
I bet plenty of casual players wouldn't mind Natascha being banned there too
The Sydney sleeper is banned but the hunstman isnt?
*players complain about spam*
*weapon made to counter spam:exists*
players:"Banned"
You're one of the rare people I hear spell "L'étranger" correctly
None of this is a game-breaking problem in 12v12 btw. Almost like the game was balanced around that
great video
Why not use reserve shooter against base jumper?
Or actually play Heavy for once
Consider using noise removal or another effect, there's quite a lot of background noise. Love the videos though man.
I think Gas Passer is banned just because is broken in the sense of throwing it through walls or props (it can go through a fucking container)
33:20 You sure the fists of steel aren't banned because they allow the pocket medic to gain uber much faster for no risk?
(due to the lower overheal?)
If they fixed that or maybe took that into account it could maybe be unbanned.
41:38 Do you think the Wrangler could be fixed if it made the Engieneer more vulnerable while active. (Like if his max health was drained or took mini crit damage?)
In the same way the Fists of Steel makes the heavy more tanky at the cost of melee damage the engie could make his sentry tanky at the cost of his own surviveability.
Maybe that would nerf it too hard or not fix anything. Im just spitting ideas.
54:46 Casuals dont hate the diamondback because its overpowered or rewards the Spy. Its more due to it always being a relatively easier upgrade to the Ambassador that remained untouched by valve unlike the ambassador which now is pretty much pointless even if you got good with it. The DB crits anywhere and has no falloff.
The ambie crits only on headshots but thats pointless now since its the only weapon in the game where crits have falloff.
So its basically just DB giving Spy a bigger reward for less effort. It did the same thing as the ambie but was easier for no downside.
I like the idea of rewarding the Spy for stabbing (and even more for sapping) but i feel like the DB should do something different entirely. Maybe let him blend in better by pretending to shoot while disguised or something.
You gave the arguments for a couple of weapons that they are banned because if they weren't, no one would use anything else or would make an already powerful class more powerful. But a lot of classes ( Medic in particular) have options that dominate their peers so much that you are pretty much throwing if any other item was picked.
ua-cam.com/video/fwOzxCdZiOc/v-deo.html&ab_channel=aWoolenSleevelet
a video about the weapon bans in competitive from 5 years ago. he describes it as an encyclopedic style video. 31 minutes long. I think it might be useful to have it linked in the description or at least here in the comments for people to see it from an EU perspective(yes from 5 years ago but given how slow weapon bans and restrictions are I think thats not as important)
I still dont get how the base jumper is seen as broken, if the enemy team gets even a semi competent smiper the soldier could just never deploy their parachute or they instantly get headshot and probably die due to the rocket jump dmg they took
The Sydney Sleeper on release in 2010 could actually random crit. Which is hilarious.
I think if the Reserve Shooter only had mini crits on targets you launched it’d be fine. I don’t know why it isn’t like that to begin with. I thought that was the entire point of it.
i think soda popper is banned because scout with hype is untouchable to 2/3 of the roster
I sure was worth hour of my day
I do notice the increased fire rate for the pocket pistol as a scout main because it almost feels more like burst damage. Long range stock is superior in my opinion because you're gonna whiff with the faster hit+lower clip. Close range the pocker pistol annihilates
cow magler 5000
How does scout hard counter soldier? As an aspiring comp scout I’ve been having problems fighting them. I feel like I’ve been improving though
Stay at mid range and pester with -40 shots
You can jump around and avoid their splash damage. Just don’t get airshot