Mariner: One of the best Trek Characters?
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- Опубліковано 28 чер 2024
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Trek Chapters:
00:00 - Sarcastic Vulcan Salutes
00:18 - Mariner Unique and Risks
00:55 - Understanding Humans in Trek
01:33 - Prestige Starfleet Currency
02:44 - Mariner consistent with trek, not mary sue
03:40 - Mariner Shuns Starfleet Senior sTaff
04:09 - Her Uniqueness
04:50 - Marinors Flaws
05:47 - One Bad Piece of writing
06:06 - In Conclusion
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Starfleet officers are like onions! They have layers.
And they can subvert your expectations.
Shrek is my favorite captain.
Shrek is my favorite captain.
Shrek is my favorite captain.
@@IPA300 Yes!🤣
Mariner makes this show interesting for me cause she feels like an actual human.
Do you not interact with other humans very often?
Actual humans don't act like that very often and they sure as hell don't hold their jobs very well.
I love mariner is the best
I like Mariner. I am interested to see more of why she's so disillusioned with the "upper decks" crew. And I like the balance of street smart/crazy/dumb stuff she does, and how Boimler, Tendi, and Rutherford balance her out
Would not be surprised if she did something, that broke the rules, but saved the day.....but got her demoted or worse.
@@TheCastellan I mean, worst case they could kick her down a rank, but that's the worst I can see happening -- they won't kick her out of Starfleet or put her in prison, it would be hard to have her in the show, lol.
I definitely got the impression she is a former Section 31-esque agent that crossed some administrative line and chose moving back in with a parent instead of being disappeared
@@themeatpopsicle Perhaps.
@@suzygirl1843 Both Burnham and Beckett are engaging and endearing on their own terms; I don't see where there's a comparison being drawn .
I get Mariner’s “Done with the Upper Decks” attitude. I was a department manager for the company I still work for. I got burnt out and stepped down, and when I see the management team all currying favors and kissing up to those higher up the status chain, I’m like thank god I don’t have to deal with that BS anymore.
Also in the real world Status= Accomplishments X Nepotism X Sycophancy.
we are talking about star trek, where 40 years of lore established that humanity is above petty politicking and asslicking.
gondor532 Call me cynical, but that’s a lovely dream. Those who have the status granting power aren’t going to flex it? See any admiral not named Ross. Also see the Kai Winn. See Gowron.
@@gondor532 There's plenty of politicking and asslicking in every Trek to date though... Especially DS9, but I kinda like that tbh, it gives the universe depth. A universe where everything is perfect and everyone is super moral and capable and great gets boring. A universe where you have as much dumb people as you do smart ones is more believable. That's why i think they' did the politicking. TNG was all moral and good with a pinch of "ooh edgy" in it, while DS9 balanced that out with some hardcore opposites. There's Picard that would sacrifice himself to uphold some moral philosophy of his, and then there's sisko that got a romulan ambassador scammed and eventually killed (intentionally or not - he did know he was hiring Garak - the spy assassing) for the greater good. Both captains have "the greater good" in mind, but would go about it very differently.
Hell even TNG wasn't immune to nepotism, having Wesley at the helm when he wasn't even at the starflee because Picard felt guilty. Sure, he was able to do his job, but that means some ensin somewhere didn't get his chance because Picard had some guilt about Beverly.
No one in any trek is as moral and as "high on a pedestal" as they're usually seen, and that's good, makes them infinitely more interesting.
@@GordanVrbanec having a morals but braking them in the face of greater good and then disussing about ramificationsis is great. Bashing viewers over the head with producer's ideology however is the worst thing you could do.
@@gondor532 What producers ideology?
I thought it was interesting how Tendi was going crazy how the guy didn’t like her. She’s an Orion and the females thrive on attraction.
Plus Tendi is really passive aggressive which makes sense since ENT establish that female Orions are naturally dominate so while she acts nice, she still needs to be on top.
No Tendi is trying to debunk the stereotype of Orions, thats why she joined Starfleet and of course because she is a giant nerd that fits within Starfleet. Tendi is very nice character and I love her antics
@@honzasenbauer612 But the desire to be liked is a biological trait for Orions. She can break a lot of the other stereotypes but not the ones that are just part of the Orion race.
@@rylansato I get that, I wasn´t saying otherwise, we even know she wants to be liked by everyone from that one episode. But then we have the nature vs nurture debate about her trying to better herself and not be like the other Orions and if it really is unchangable. Honestly, it will be really interesting
Mariner is basically a more likable and flawed version of Burnham.
both are opposite of likable
Saying Mariner is more likable than Burnham is like saying catching the clap is better than catching HIV.
She strikes me as a straight parody of Burnham especially given that the other characters rather than just loving her pretty much all dislike her but get along with her anyway because they're on the job
@@gondor532 Mariner is likable.
@@cptsteele91 the group likes her but gets frustrated with her very often. Thats why I don’t get why people call her Mary Sue.
She gets the job done most of the times, but thats because she has prior expirience and it has been shown, that her way isn’t the only way and her way is hella dangerous most of the time. Jet on the other hand get the job done aswell, but tries to do it peacefully. Both are capable in different ways.
Same with Boimler. He is really good with systems, protocol all the nerdy stuff, just look at the episode with Red Shirts where he saves Tendi by quick thinking and knowledge of artifacts.
Tendi is excelent medic, with very weird and sometimes frigtening personality (I blame Orion heritage for that) and she is trying to better herself.
Rutherford is very skilled engineer and he loves the job, but doesn’t get experience he needs to progress more in his life. They all complement each other.
Boimler is someone Marines wants to protect and give him advice, Marines is someone Boimler wants to one up so he can be better than her, again learning more and getting more expirience. They both learn from each other in a way. Mariner learns from Boimler how to be good to people and how to keep them in her lives in a way they both want and Boimler is teaching her how to trust the right people.
Tendi and Rutherford try to be best friends, because they like each others company, they complement each other in a unique way. Both are nerds that realize it but cannot express the liking to each other in a normal way, so they make schemes and fun stuff to each other which they both seem to enjoy very much.
If they all become the senior staff at one point in the show, with Boimler being the Captian as he dreams, Mariner his number one, Tendi as chief medical officer and Rutherford as chief Engineer, that is the right thing for them, and they can actually change Starfleet for the better, now that he Federation is stagnating in its own core in my opinion.
I am very interested in the story of Lower Decks as its one of the best shows I have ever watched and its made from a place of love for Star Trek which is evident in every detail and dialogue.
There is a distinct difference between being smart and being clever. Bradword is smart but Mariner is clever. She knows how to use her smarts in a smart way
This character is nothing like my cousin Mary Sue.
Even the original Mary Sue (who actually originated from a Star Trek fan fiction) was nothing like what we consider to be a Mary Sue by today's standards. It's... weird to think about.
Your cousin is a saint.
So many people just dont know what a Mary sue *actually is* and throw the term around.
I’ve found it has so many definitions now thanks to that
A Mary Sue is overly competent at everything she does, is liked by everyone, has no character flaws and is overly important.
Mariner is competent in a crisis, maybe overly so but she most definitely does not tick any of the other boxes.
I think even being overly competent can be forgiven since she is starfleet and regardless of being on the lowest rung of starfleet (a california class), starfleet officers are the best of the best.
If the Marquis were still about i very much think she would have joined them, like B'Lanna did. I think also being raised in a Starfleet family has made her apathetic towards the organisation, much in the way Tom Paris was, until he matured and settled down. She is basically what Miral should have been had she inhereted traits from both her parents. Basically intelligent, street smart and rebellious.
A marquess (UK: /ˈmɑːrkwɪs/; French: marquis, [mɑʁki]) is a nobleman of high hereditary rank in various European peerages and in those of some of their former colonies.
Maquis on the other hand are a 24th-century paramilitary organization-terrorist group first introduced in the 1994 episode "The Maquis" of the television series Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
@@gondor532 You are a pedantic smarty pants. Could I please have a covid-19 free hug now?
@@grimmfandango832 Not really, where I come from basic spelling isn't considered especially smart thing...
@@gondor532 Miiaooow, I do not speak French, hence the resistance and the nobility are naturally a blur to me. I still want a hug btw.
@@grimmfandango832 I don't speak french (nor is english my first language) and yet I know the difference :) I'm not really a hugger, especialy if you are a guy xD
i think she is doing a favor for her father to stay with her mother.
I agree with you, very interesting and a risky character to make.
Risky not riaky
@@GamingMagic3280 just edit the comment
@@snonsig2688 Sorry i just found out how to edit comments, thank you for your help. 🖖👍
Episode 5 that aired today, really showed why Mariner is such a great character, at least in my opinion.
I, too, share a hatred of Jennifer’s
@@LoreReloadedWait whose Jennifer?
Really? Please elaborate.
If Wesley Crusher wasn't obnoxious he'd be Beckett Mariner.
Mariner is quite obnoxious. But she is relatable. Crusher was written to be too perfect. Until he got into the academy he never did anything wrong or got into trouble unless he was actually right while everyone else was wrong.
LOL Mariner is FAR more obnoxious than Crusher. She just wasn't written as boringly perfect as Wesley was. It took YEARS before Wesley was put in his place by Picard. It took only 3 episodes for that to happen to Mariner.
Oof, but yeah
@@xaviervega468 To this day, "SHUT UP, WESLEY!" remains the pivotal moment that made Picard a truly beloved captain.
@@xaviervega468 as far as the show is concerned sure. but keep in mind that she did the kid thing, did the academy thing, and then did the senior staff thing. we saw Wesley do his kid thing and the academy thing, and very briefly the start of his career. story wise this means that Mariner was put in her place way after Wesley was. if the show had a different format and tone they could have done her story from kid to admiral with this sort of rebellious phase being the meat of the story, and done it quite well. this isn't that show though, but maybe we will see what made her this way in bits and pieces.
Mariner getting a promotion without even trying as a punishment really annoys Boimler because he actually tries hard and wants it. A nice counter to that might be if Boimler keeps getting invited to some event that he hates but Mariner is totally into. Like a Klingon dethmetal concert.
"I've got her removing the shit from the holodecks, Captain."
"Wait, people actually use the holodecks to shit?!"
She's a Tom Paris / Thomas riker / ensign Ro style character who we've seen in trek before, and had she been born a decade or two before she'd likely have defected to the maquee believing that she could do more to help as a freedom fighter than as a stuffy command level officer (similar to Eddington who was once all about rank, but who then threw it all away). I imagine she is the way she is as her parents likely never gave her an alternative choice to starfleet (which as a starfleet brat she ate up, untill it started to sour for her), and one day she probably woke up to realise that she was becoming a carbon copy of her parents with no individual characteristics of her own, resulting in her rebellious attitude which got her demoted back to ensign and transfered. Very much like nog, she doesn't want to end up like her parents, or most notably her mother - a starfleet captain yes (the most cherished of ranks), but a captain who's still competing for recognition and praise because her ship is not a top teir vessel, a captain who still seeks validation from her peers and whose looking down at the achievements she already has (this has probably shaped her view on command officers in general, even though her mother is not a prefect reflection of who they are
she's the first impression mariner ever had of them). So mariner breaks the rules, she's rebellious, she does shit which get her in trouble, but always draws the line between actions which will see her shoved in the brig, and actions which would see her chucked out of starfleet because despite not wanting to follow the rank and validation route her parents did she still grew up in starfleet and still believes in its core mission.
Very insightful
If Mariner is a Dom Paris, does that make Boimler a Harry Kim? I can definitely see Boimler stay an ensign for seven more years.
@@schwarzerritter5724 haha I did originally think that boimle could be a harry kim a.k.a still a fresh ensign whose got the book smarts but not the field experience. But i feel that Boimler has already displayed more characteristics of, well, a character than Harry Kim, plus boimlers working his but off to gain recognition from the lower decks while harry had that cushy bridge post which still saw him as an ensign for 7 years (despite tom parris being demoted and opening up a Lieutenancy on the ship... half the original crew dying, opening up some Lieutenancies... and Tuvok being promoted to Lt. Commander once again openning up a Lieutenancy... hmmm me thinks the obstacle for mr. kim may not have been the availability of promotions on the ship :P)
She hasn't been booted despite the fact that she should be because her mom is a captain and her dad an admiral.
Nepotism at its finest.
@@schwarzerritter5724 But don't you know that boimler was promoted to lieutenant jr. grade
I love how unhappy she was after she was promoted. I mean she was just miserable. It's hilarious cuz anyone else would kill for the chance.
I really appreciate how genuine your analysis of Lower Decks is, and that you don’t rebuke it as “just a comedy” or because “trek isn’t meant to be comedy”. Your appreciation helps show others, including myself, that Lower Decks has more depth to it than some might give it credit for.
I actually find this show refreshing and very light hearted. It still stays within Star trek but and I like that my kids get it. Very needed from the heavy epic show Discovery.
As Boimler asked in episode 2, "We're the same age! What 'old days'!?" - she has far more experience than her age befits. Growing up with 2 flag-officer parents might mean she grew up on starships and Wesley Crushered her way onto the bridge, but it kind of feels like there's more to it than that. She's exceptionally capable and lucky, even by Starfleet and 24th century humanity standards. It completely confounds Boimler, who is himself very capable and thrives under well-structured pressure.
Here's a kind of out-there theory: She's proficient in combat, science, and intuitive in negotiation. She has a long list of alien acquaintances and can drink a Klingon under the table. She has a different surname to her mother (if her father's last name has been mentioned I haven't heard it) and a very strained relationship with them both - almost like they don't fully know her anymore...
... does she have a worm in her belly?
Regardless of how her past ends up being depicted, I'm interested to find out.
Her parents are likely both Dominion War veterans. They likely taught her how to fight and a good chunk of her skills even before she went to the Academy.
"almost like they don't fully know her anymore...does she have a worm in her belly? " - nah, she is womyn of color who "fights the system", ofcourse she will always be right.
Who needs luck when nepotism means no worries?
@@xaviervega468 actually if im estimating this correctly.
if mariner is just 30 she'd be born 2350. she would've graduated from the academy 2372. she's old enough to have fought through th entire dominion war.
her parents are probably 55-60+ basically dr. crusher age range.
they would've been senior line officers during TNG already.
I think people screaming Mary Sue really need to go to the fan fiction community and find egregious examples so you can see what you are saying. MB in Discovery is very close to a classic Mary Sue, but even she makes poor decisions that don't work out for the best a few times. An alcoholic violence loving rebellious kid who probably only stays in starfleet because she thinks it is her best chance at helping people is not crazy Mary Sue territory. Sure the framing of the first couple episodes shows her in her element and she looks really good there, but nobody else on the crew can keep up with Boimler's workaholic schedule and she is not the magical exception to that. She is also proven wrong about it needing to be her to fight the giant alien. I am sure we can find other character flaws and/or mistakes if we look hard enough and especially as more episodes come out.
Idk if this is right but I think the term Mary sue came from a star trek fan fic
She appears that way to Boimler in the first few episodes, as episodes continue she shows a good deal of flaws and being outright or wrong up to self destructive. By the third or fourth episodes she firmly left any Mary Sue territory and also the show finds its footing from stereotypes to what it wants to tell.
As they say, 'third time is the charm.' Discovery, Picard, and finally finding their stride with Lower Decks. A lead character is someone who is made better by the people that support them, not because they are better than everyone else.
So damn right
Well, it helps that this one isn't trying to clone the newBSG grimdark tone. And isn't changing lore in contrived ways to shoehorn drama. And doesn't use aesthetics that contradict with a preestablished era. Lets hope they keep it that way.
Ah yes I as an fellow american love to talk about the show i legally watched with the name Star Trek: Lower Decks
Nog is a great comparison, idealistic and booksmart but still the cunning businessman. Mariner is like Nog with no Rules if Acquisition nor Humanistic faith. And that makes a very satisfying character.
She's very much a humanist, putting that AHEAD of regulations and societal expectations
Nog was also very disciplined, something Mariner completely lacks.
I dunno. I could totally see Mariner memorosing and applying the rules of acquisition
Kids doing calculus actually makes sense to me. If you look at the math most of us learned as kids (I’m 33) it’s far more advanced then math most anyone learned 400 years ago. Most of my friends’ kids are learning things in third grade I didn’t learn until fifth grade.im fine with this progression of common knowledge.
There still is a cap on how much or what specialized/advanced skills you can teach a kid, but the math there seems almost right, particularly since this is a age where you have a calculator that can also explain the process to you litterally pinnes to your chest. Now if these kids were doing taxes, and quantum calculations like a certain brat we hate, well then it'd be a bit too much.
cody raugh you are referring to Wesley, right?
@@gavinsmiley9377 yup
cody raugh I think he grows into a more tolerable character, most of the time. Have you seen the Honest Trailer for TNG?
@@gavinsmiley9377 yesi saw honest trailer. happiest TNG memories were him being told to shut up, and i was a couple years younger than him. He actually sits near the core issues i hold with star trek. i honestly think the Federation is a paper tiger, they look advanced and powerful on paper, but in practice most other Sci-fi civilizations could beat them pretty soundly. And Weasley Crusher is the highlight of that fact, since a child (even if a genius) is able to easily solve problems that the best qnd brightest of the Federation cannot solve, he can easily bypass their security, even just walk past them when he's supposed to kept out, and he can shake and break the will of their most disciplined combatants, all while knowing the layout of the ship better from memory than crew who live daily ot at least weekly in parts of the ship he should have never explored qnd those people even have maps...and the enterprise for the crew size is disturbingly big, enough so that a stowaway capable of not being detected by scanners can go months without anyone even running across possible evidence of their existence.
Goddamn it. You're making me want to watch this show, and there are too many shows!
Let me know your thoughts if you do
I like to see that mariner was a number one to a Captain in the Dominion war and she becomes Disillusion with starfleet during the war
I don't consider Mariner a Mary Sue but do consider Burnham a Mary Sue.
The label has lost most all meaning to me but if ever a Mary Sue existed .. it would be Michael
Burnham is DEFINITELY a Mary Sue. Connection to canon characters? Check Unique special snowflake background? Check. Better than everyone else at absolutely everything? Big check. I mean she graduated TOP OF HER CLASS from the Vulcan Science Academy despite not being a Vulcan and Sarek seemed to love her more than his own flesh and blood son. Oh and she is the one that essentially guides Spock into being the Spock we know.
It dosen't get much more Mary Sue than that.
@@xaviervega468 Season 2 IMO showed her to be more a Mary Sue than season 1, but she still is not on the Rey level of Mary Sue.
The "LLAP Out" is Frakkin awesome - don't be mad bros
She is young and fun loving
Mariner has proven me wrong in that I initially thought she was a complete Sue. I've changed my mind about that though. Temporal Edict was the episode where I realized she was in fact fallible. Up until that point she'd been the one who always had the right answers and always knew better but Ransom challenged her on that. Despite being a bit of a tool and at least by starfleet standards an idiot he came through and showed that Beckett Mariner isn't always right.
Mariner reminds me of Kirk quite a lot. Both of them have a certain moral code, are willing to break the rules to help others, both have a certain arrogance, and both think that were they are is where they can do their best. Kirk thinks this is on the bridge of the Enterprise while Mariner thinks it is on the lower decks. Sure, there are still a lot of differences but she is also younger and more inexperienced than Kirk was, even during TOS.
There is also one character Mariner reminds me of who is not Star Trek and that is the Doctor in Doctor Who, especially the first Doctor during the first season. He has street smarts that leads him to outsmart his opponents even those with a better education but the First Doctor, unlike later Doctors, did not necessarily do what was right because of kindness but often enough out of curiosity and self-rigthousness.
kirk is nothing like mariner.
kirk wants to be the best of the best.
rise through the ranks.
all that .
@@cosmeticscameo8277 And still he hated being Admiral just as Mariner hates being a higher ranking officer.
@@GermanLeftist during TOS kirk was still ambitious and wanted to progress his career it wasn't until after TMP or TWOK that he felt ok this admiralty stuff is boring. if it was possible he probably could've asked admiral morrow to reduce him in rank to a commodore so he could command a ship again.
I actually wrote 1,463 words once in defense of Mariner. As you mentioned toward the beginning of this video, I feel too many people subject Mariner's character to a shallow, surface-level reading. Which is a real shame, as it's clear there's a lot of complexity to her that's already started to shine through the (as of writing this comment) six episodes of Lower Decks we've gotten thus far.
Thank you so much for this video. Mariner doesn't deserve to be the fandom menace's punching bag.
I love Beckett "I DON'T NEED THERAPY!" Mariner all the more for her flaws. That's why Crisis Point:Rise of Vindicta is my favorite episode, just seeing her character deconstructed and laid bare like that. I also love that, while Rutherford, Boimler and Tendi are all nerds, Mariner is a nerd-in-denial.
wessley crusher was a mary su, remember the three people in voyager who fell through the cracks?
I remember, what was the title?
She grew up on the Enterprise-D and her first posting out of the academy was on DS9 during the Dominion War. She's not a Mary Sue, she's just been through some shit.
When did they say she grew up on the Enterprise?
Thank you that’s like calling Ellie a Mary sue because she has the ability to kill people 🤦🏽♂️ she grew up in a dangerous environment no matter what gender the person appears to be the world that’s set around her made her to adapt.
And the smartest human of all, Harry Mudd, knew not to join Star Fleet.
the way the show is going so far, i think Mariner and Boimler might be hooking up somewhere along the series.
That's a good possibility. It could happen on a night after they are both extremely drunk. Perhaps, the morning after, Mariner might go to Boimler and say(like Tasha Yar once said to Data), "I'm only going to say this once--it never happened!". Or they could privately acknowledge that it happened, and explore some newfound feelings for each other. It could be very interesting!😊
5:00 like that is a high bar....
She kind of reminds me of Starbuck from the rebooted Battlestar Galactica -- a smartass who bucks authority yet still gets the job done.
Sorta a Starbuck *without* the ship's commander having her back. Actually she's Starbuck if Saul Tigh was the commander, not Adama I think. And since (For some bizarre reason) the Captain is her own Mother, Mariner actually likely can needle her even more (No one knows you like family after all).
I've only seen the first episode since it was free, so I might not have enough material to make a solid comparison... but.
she kind of reminded me of Tom Paris, or Ensign Ro, or what I imagine would be a younger Major Kira would be... minus the Occupation.
It's that archetype of someone who views proper procedures as annoying rules that just get in the way doing something straightforward.
I guess that would something like chaotic good or neutral good?
I really love Mariner. She's my favourite character since Garack, and definitely up there with Riker, Picard, DS9 Worf and Sisko as my favourite Star Fleet characters.
Hmm, an interesting take on the character. I've not been able to see for myself yet so I can't really comment on the accuracy though
So, Mariner feels like someone who would probably be more at home in the TOS-Era Starfleet than the TNG-Era Starfleet?
Definetly
@@LoreReloaded Do you think if Kirk were to be born in the TNG Era or later, he might've turned out like Mariner?
I freaking love her character
Given her attitude, I'm having a hard time understanding why Mariner is even still in Star Fleet. She seems so bored and annoyed by it all. She only seems to be enjoying herself when she's kicking ass or pissing off her superiors. For that matter, I don't like Boimler much either. He's a nerd who loves work, which is fine for comedic purposes, but for a Star Fleet officer who is so eager to move of the ladder, he seems to be a bit too much of a wuss.
I think Mariner would be better if she was wrong once in a while and other characters checked her attitude and Boimler would be better if he was a bit more arrogant thinking that his book smarts make him better but he gets shut down when it comes time to apply those book smarts to real situations. This is a comedy show, after all.
Finally, I think Tendi and Rutherford have a lot of potential and I'd like it if those characters had more time to shine. They've only been B-plots so far and I think they are more interesting and likable than the two leads.
Well, look at RL military...some of them don't want to leave because they love it, or because they are scared about being without it.
Mariner probably can't envision being 100% without something she doesn't fully believe in, even though in the Star Trek ethos her potential could be limitless.
Are you kidding? Boimier would be better if he wasn't constantly humiliated and actually got to enjoy a victory every now and then. He gets shit on EVERY episode.
@@xaviervega468 Given the wokeness if new trek, I'd settle for him just not being a total wuss. Expecting him to be right once in a while might be asking too much. Lol
@@xaviervega468 well he is white male after all, he deserves that shit, and Mariner is stron womyn of color, ofcourse she is always right and never bears any consequences
@@xaviervega468 So him saving the day in EP3 didn't happen then? That was a visual and auditory hallucination i was suffering from then?
This is why she is my favorite chatacter from Star Trek Lower Decks
I perfectly agree.
Love her. Can't tell you how refreshing it is to have representation like this in the modern tv climate. She's not a vessel for American politics, she just exists as a great character.
She did definitely feel like a mary sue in season one though, but it eased up a bit as the show went on.
Mariner feels like a dropout. Someone who slipped through the cracks of a system.
Yes.
I’m interested in the show now
I need to check this series out, it on CBS all access?
It is
I mean... Starfleet has always been very forgiving with problem officers. Barkley and Ro Laren come to mind. And yeah, the whole point of the Federation is to allow its citizens to transcend themselves. It’s stated more than once over the series.
ro laren got drummed out of the service when we saw her. she was in a penal colony.
barclay maybe a loner but he's competent at his job. he was lt jr grade when we saw him in tng.
@@cosmeticscameo8277 Barclay did go against direct orders several times, and as for Ro, I did mean before she joined the Maquis.
@@yaumelepire6310 when he was under the alien influence
Yeah, Mariner and Burnham are very different! We see that she have problems, not everybody worship her for no reason and the series is show that she is not perfect and have flaws. The viewers just dont wanna understand that this is how her character arc starts.
Mariner in isolation might be okay. I don't like the character on her own merits because its obvious the only reason she still has a unifrom is her mother and father are high ranking. The fact that burnham exists hurts her character. Mariner seems like Mikey Spock 2: Like her this time."
No, those folks on teralisium worshipped her mother. Close though
Mariner does look like a mary-sue on first glance, I thought she was after the first episode or two, but after that she really grew on me, plus having more episodes meant more character development and showed me just how wrong I was.
I love the show and the character. This is the first time I've been able to unabashedly enjoy Star Trek since First Contact. Don't get me wrong, I like the first and third Kelvin timeline movies. However, the utter disregard shown for canon, the continuity errors and the lack of science in its science fiction of Into Darkness really kinda ruined that franchise for me. This show, even with the Rick and Morty humor and aesthetic, feels more like Star Trek to me than anything I've seen in a long, long time.
Hi She is a good look at a different type of crewman that we have seen in many ways, I see a little Tom Paris and B'Elanna Torres. I like her character, we will see more of her in flash backs, I would have like it if when she had her flash back in EPISODE 5 she was a higher rank like FULL LIEUTENANT or Lieutenant Junior Grade. so we see she was higher in rank earlier. THANK for sharing.
Well, to me Mariner has become my most favourite character ever
Whoa, what's the issue with renegade cut? lol
One thing I still wonder is why she's still in Starfleet at all, not on account of her parents preventing her from being thrown out but on account of her just not leaving. What's stopping her from doing exploration outside of Starfleet, which we see multiple instances of Federation citizens doing in alpha canon?
Cause its like Rick and Morty, an eternal status Quo of "Starfleet is so dumb bro" but never actually leaving Starfleet. Just Modern lazy lifestyle, people who hate their lifestyles but never do anything to chage it
@@marccamp6376 At least Rick and Morty constantly shakes up the status quo.
She wants to be out exploring and doing good in the galaxy, like helping out those pig people. Starfleet is the best way to do that. She just doesn't like the bureaucracy.
@@GoodOldGamer Yeah but the problem is the bureaucracy she complains about didn't exist before Lower Decks and was created for the sole reason of pretending she has a reason to be in Star Fleet when it's clear she hates the institution and doesn't belong in it. It's the bad writing we've come to expect from modern Star Trek that's only praise worthy insofar as it's not as bad as Discovery or Picard and most fans are at least not pretending this series is canon.
@@ZontarDow The bureaucracy has always existed. The Prime Directive is the very embodiment of it, and every captain/main character has violated it on multiple occasions to get the right things done. kirk even stole the bloody Enterprise to get things done faster!
I love mariner
Mariner knows something about what makes the Koala smile and that Koala we ride on has a very different set of values to us.
As for how she manages to stay in Starfleet she somehow seems to be very well connected to Federation allies and her past missions seem to, for now, tip the balance of her worth into her giving more value on Starfleets side of the board instead of potentially being pulled into another factions side.
I mostly agree, but in the first two episodes I think the writers were a little lazy in how they used her andl I think the default go to joke for them is a formula that hurts her character. Up to episode 5 any time they wanted to make a deep cut reference they would have her make it and break the 4th wall. Episode 5 was good for giving another character, Barb, a chance to do that. Having it always be her making those kind of references gave her charactee a kind of "Deadpool lite" feeling I think is very hit or miss. As the show has continued I think this was pointed out to them and they are spreading the referential humor around a little more. Everybody compares Lower Decks to Rick and Morty, but looking at the staff there is a lot of staff crossover with The Venture Brothers and it shows. I don't think that is a bad thing, but a lot of what they are doing feels very similar to that show's treatment of the old Hanna Barbera-Verse only with Star Trek.
I agree on your last point. Her insubordination actually goes too far; she should have been drummed out of Starfleet instead of being demoted. Or even take away her commission.
Though it's interesting that despite her attitude, she is very competent, and actually obeys the orders she's given, no matter what they are.
BTW, Mariner and her friends are all Ensigns - commissioned officers. Yet they're doing very basic maintenance tasks. Aren't there ordinary crewmen for that? Where are the O'Brien types?
She gets to stay in due to nepotism. Which is very un Trek like.
The thing I may like most about Mariner is the fact that, while she is clearly disillusioned with some of the way's Starfleet operates, she is still fully committed to the organization itself. This is a rather large departure for the franchise. In DS9, we got the Maquis, and saw how many within Starfleet who opposed the peace treaty left their positions to join them. And this is a great thing to explore, but it leaves us with two sets of absolutist world views: those who are fully, unquestioningly committed to Starfleet, and those who who completely abandon it once the Federation does something they don't care for. In truth, I feel like most people would be somewhere in the middle: having their naivety about how Starfleet and Federation principles can only go so far in a complicated universe stripped away, while still remaining committed to the idea of both those organizations. And Mariner fulfills that role nicely: she clearly thinks much of the way Starfleet operates is bullshit (especially when it comes to how the Prime Directive is applied), but is fully committed to doing as much good as she can within the boundaries of being a member of a Starfleet ship.
UA-camr: Lower Decks got the continuity wrong!
Me: Have you ever watched Star Trek?
Man, this show really, really looks like Final Space
Nah fam, it is it’s own thing
I also have a feeling that she is also a slight parody of michael burnham. Not sure if that's Intentional tho...
Mariner is the Anti Burnham
I thought I'd hate this show but man is it good
So what episode will feature "the full Boimler"???????
I find Boimler very similar to the crew of the Excelsior in Star Trek III (RIP Miguel Ferrer): focused on the wrong things and stuck in the All Theory No Practice weeds. It's telling that Starfleet would put such figures in charge of testing new ships instead of actually out in space. I like to think that Boimler eventually becomes the Federation's go-to captain for testing new ships... and they never let him leave the solar system again.
I love Lower Decks! Even though it’s ridiculous It just feels Trek again!
i had the thought that maybe it's more than just her dad and her mom in Starfleet. I know there is no evidence but if she is from a Starfleet family she could have a grandparent in the admiralty and aunts and uncles cousins in other positions of power. it might just be a family people don't go against because of how well connected they are. I don't see them being a holes about it but you don't mess with things like that
I think that Mariner gets away with her over the top behavior because somewhere, someone... is a 'Kirk fan' in Starfleet. They see a possible Captain Kirk in Ensign Mariner... Kind of encouraging. Just like with Tendi, even Starfleet officers can geek out :)
Speaking of the 23rd century, Daystrum.
Well aside from the fact you have some people over-think her..... It's the way the character is. Mariner represents the Starfleet that people don't think exist but does. I was former military and I knew people like Mariner folks who could push the envelope and get away with stuff because they were actually pretty good at what they did but didn't want the ranking the responsibilities that went along with going up the chain of command.
The other point that was made and was said on another thread was that if some of the comments in one of the recent episodes was Beckett a veteran of the Dominion War
If that is the case you could understand her behavior to a certain extent.
Mariner is like that grizzled NCO that has seen it all and done so much, Command is willing to put up with a lot of "talkback" because they are an asset when things go to shit.
It sounds like a form of the current 'Social Score' some countries have implemented as to what tangible tit for tat trade, or am I just hearing that incorrectly?
It also sounds, as far as character development, that you're speaking of Intelligence versus wisdom (sorry for the D&D reference). She has intelligence but not the wisdom of experience to use it to its full potential.
To me, it's a "hyper" version of meritocracy - because you don't need to worry about cash, or paying your mortgage, or starving, the only "true" currency is yourself -brains & body and what you're able to do with them, and how far you're able to push yourself and contribute or improve yourself, your society, and your fellow citizens.
From what we can infer everyone's basic needs are always going to be met no matter how much they screw up their lives. I imagine the incentive to do better is mainly for recognition and opportunity, and that any perks that come with it are just icing on the cake. You want to go to Risa? Well too bad, we aint spending the fuel for someone who hasn't done shit. You want a space to open up a restaurant? Then show us that you know what you're doing. You want to explore the stars on your own ship? Then present us your thesis and convince us that you'd be a worthwhile investment. The downside might be that you would need to keep up your status to maintain your higher standard of living. Or be so renowned that you could retire at any time and keep all your perks.
I think Mariner has lots of wisdom in certain things but lacks it in others.
The difference between status and social score is, that how social score is gained is dictated by an authoritarian government. Status is given to you by every human being you interact with and that knows you. The latter is much more democratic. It's not much different to how status and respect work nowadays. Star Trek just skips the monetary part. In capitalism status is gained by the capital you have, which is meant to be proportional to your actual accomplishments and contribution to society. However, in modern capitalism capital is often gained by no accomplishments and no contribution to society and often just extracted from the contribution of others. Star Trek is very true to Karl Marx here and the idea of gaining status and self-worth through the actual work a person does. "Social score" is the idea of an unnatural gamification of reality, in which people in power directly make the rules how to gain power and use technology to enforce it. Therefore social score is not proportional to the contribution to human society, but instead proportional to your contribution to those in power. You can technically earn the respect of other human beings and increase your status without having social score, so I wouldn't compare both ideas. Social score is more or less the twisted authoritarian version of status, much like a one-party-system is a twisted authoritarian version of democracy. They carry the same idea on the surface, but contradict its core.
"Mariner: One of the best Trek Characters?"
Us, normal people: B R U H WUT?
Yeah I don get the appeal of this character either.
Then don't watch. No one is forcing you to watch something you clearly don't enjoy.
@@Stingra87 Oh I DO enjoy Star Trek. So its normal that people complain when someone is killing Star trek
"My opinions are normal and opposing opinions abnormal."
@@Stingra87 I like plenty of shows where I may dislike a character or 2. Do you always throw the baby out with the bath water?
Mariner is ok. Not great. Not bad. Ok. She is in Starfleet, and able to escape punishments due to nepotism. That in the world of Trek irks me.
There have been a few other characters similar to Mariner in Trek. Just not really Starfleet characters. Both Quark and Rom had a few similarities in that while quite competent in their own ways, they had seemingly abandoned the expected paths to progression in their culture and society, and were seemingly content to exist in Commerce's Lower Decks. Possibly the closest we get to a Starfleet officer being that disillusioned is Pilot episode Sisko. Although Tom Paris in theory might be Mariner's closest live action counterpart. With Harry Kim sitting in the Boimler role. They just weren't as brave with the character risks in early Voyager.
Fun fact , the german word for street smarts is ``Bauernschläue``! Not a dircet translation , but it means the same !
She's had a lot of character development since this video was uploaded. She doesn't seem to get enough appreciation.
I've done updated videos on her actually
Boimler is my fav!
I could totally see Jack Quaid playing a live action Boimler.
I'm not ready to sentence her as mary sue yet, but I'm looking at that direction.
I’ll need first your definition of a Mary Sue and then some examples
While I dislike Mariner intensely she is not a Mary Sue. She has plenty of flaws in her character and was put in her place by Episode 3. It took over 4 years before Picard laid the smackdown on Wesley in the First Duty.
I dont think she is a much as Mary Sue as people think. I think she has just been around and has Starfleet parents so she naturally knows a lot. See, she has a reason for being smart, not like Rey from Force Awakens that is born knowing how to do everything.
@@pt29999 Well, like I said, not there yet. But she does seem to be way better then everyone and blondy became a friend immediately she haunted her... But she didn't win the fight against her, so that's something.
I've only seen 2 episodes so far (I'll watch more but this isn't the type of show that gets me excited to watch more of), and I feel that the first impressions of her do push people the wrong way. She's arrogant, a bit annoying, and so far, shown to always be right. But they could go in an interesting direction with her, show someone rebelling against the status quo, and show how she is sometimes right, but then temper that with her failures and failings as a person. That would create a great dynamic and fit well with the show as a whole.
Mariner is essentially a Military Brat.
No doubt about her.
did you know... you can put the lower decks characters on active duty... on star trek online...
The idea of prestige being the "currency" in Starfleet would actually go a ways toward explaining some/many of the admirals that have been encountered in the franchise and why they tend toward being rather dubious of character. Essentially Starfleet is a meritocracy taken to an extreme which I'd argue makes it hard to recognize as one since we don't live in anything close to resembling one in the modern age. That said as with anything taken to an extreme it has it's pros and cons major pro being people driven to excel and do their best and generally one can assume getting credit for their work (we assume), con though is one we've seen from TOS on is ego and a moral high horse that at times runs face-first into reality or a moral quandary that challenges that pedestal...with varying results. This is probably why Starfleet sometimes doesn't get along with some species despite their idealized outlook is their seen as arrogant and moral blowhards by some of the rest of the galaxy, and while it's true that Starfleet might often be in the right they aren't always as we've seen, and sometimes even being "right" isn't all that matters in a situation.
Is it just me or dose Starfleet have a history of assigning people to ships and places where there is a clear Conflict of Interests, like Mariner being on a ship captained by her mother is a clear reference to that
I wonder if her father sees something in her we havent and her mother hasnt.
he see's her mom
I think Mariner doesn't value status as a sign of being a jaded cynic. Captain Ramsey said Mariner was an ace at Starfleet Academy but those first few years as an ensign killed her enthusiasm since much of her dialogue to Boilmer, Tendi, and Rutherford is just making fun of Trek stuff they're in wonder of. In _Q Who_ Picard said they might need to take a few bloody noses to be ready for space but it's the ensigns who usually get those bloody noses and it's just made the girl fed up with Starfleet.
We are already super humans in relation to our parent‘s generation and older. It‘s a good assumption that 400 years later people will be even more excellent on average.
to see a character in ST that is essentially an rebel-rizer .... NGL it's awesome
I'm not gonna call Mariner an anarchist because if she was a total anarchist she wouldn't be in starfleet.
But her disdain for self important establishment (I know that word is pretentious AF) but also respect towards people who earn it (like the XO in ep 3) I like that kind of thinking
Did Starfleet abandon the Junior Lieutenant rank? Or did Captain Mom play favourites and promote her daughter two ranks? Maybe it's easier to drawn the full gold pip over the half pip.
Her mother did that to make her miserable and possibly get her to transfer out. Mariner could have stayed in the lower decks as a junior LT (she would have just been in charge of them all) A full gold pip made her senior staff.
I'm guessing that's what her former rank used to be so she was reinstated.
I didn't like her at first, but she won me over.