Lore Theory: Did Starfleet Betray the Alpha Quadrant?
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- Опубліковано 3 гру 2020
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"If you drink enough of it.....you begin to like it"
"Its insidious"
"Just like the Federation"
ROOTBEER , ah sweet memberberries.
But not the show, I liked the first season and didn’t mind the Pike parts of the second season but this season is just terrible. As far as arcs go, the previous season barely had one.
@@zaprese you are in need of serious conditioning if you liked the first season the most.
It’s funny to see this exchange because it comes from two non-Federation aliens looking at the Federation from the outside. Even in the 24th century, the Federation was viewed with a level of suspicion and disillusionment. Eddington’s “worse than the Borg” speech also comes to mind. Ni’var’s president’s observation about the many and the one sounds like what the Maquis might say.
@@TerenceLight I'm not sure disillusionment is the right word. Neither of them necessarily see the federation as a negative as opposed to a change they aren't particularly enthusiastic about. Quark even says you start to like it.
Honestly the federation turning darker isn't suprising being that its under almost constant threat. Not to mention how militarized Starfleet became in the 24th century. But i dont think they are evil they're just more militarized and willing to go further.
Hmmm. What is Further? More bib big BIG. ships they should of made
Just li the SCEMTAIRE
You know, maybe Starfleet doesn't exist anymore and it's really just Section 31 that took over after the Burn.
"The Federation is trying to do good"... Starfleet literally tried to recreate the Trail of Tears and nearly genocided a planet. It is only because Picard led an insurrection against Admiral Dougherty that Starfleet didn't succeed. The Federation may indeed being trying to do good, but Starfleet has a long history of bad people rising up in the ranks and doing horrible things. And frankly, that is a good thing. It is good to remember that even good organizations can do bad things. We need to be vigilante of our heroes as well, because when we rest on our laurels is when bad people can take advantage of us.
the road to hell is paved with good intentions btw. :p
@@kinagrill so dos make the road to heaven is paved with bad intentions
Vigilant.
the argument could be made that, since Dougherty was acting as an individual without (a sufficiently informed) Starfleet support, he is no more "Starfleet" than Picard was when he acted as an individual in that movie.
How is a colony of 600 people an entire planet?
Plus if nearly killing 600 people is "genocide", then the Jem'Hadar wiping out the Bajoran colony in the gamma quadrant, should also be considered an act of genocide, but then it's never mentioned after the two minutes of dialogue, whereas the Baku are still talked about 25 years after the Briar patch incident.
I think most of the bad we have heard was from an era when the Federation was a bloated bureaucracy who neglected their own people, their was probably some deep seeded corruption there as well. We see some of the beginnings of that in TNG and DS9 era. For example the federation abandoned entire civilian colonies to make peace with the Cardassians instead of fighting for it's people. This led to entire colonies withdrawing from the federation and led to countless starfleet officers of all ranks joining the maquis, many of whom were great people. Who have people like Sisko and Picard who vehemently opposed them then we had people like Kira, Chokatay and even Riker who sympathized with them. Is was never black and white even within Starfleet.
If similar events happened where Vulcans, Andorians, earth and other member worlds were put in similar situations I can see them taking a step back and rethinking their federation membership. No one on wants important far reaching decisions to be made in their behalf by people they don't know.
I think Seru's conversation with the President of Ni'Var illustrated that well. She said they started stretching member worlds beyond their capacity. Seru countered that by saying they paid a heavy price and may have learned from those mistakes.
Section 31 may be hiding some secrets but I don't think Starfleet will turn out to be bad, at least I hope not, it will kill this season for me if they Lorca Admiral Vance.
I think Earth held the federation of Plants together not member worlds. Now one can see member worlds rethinking their membership in the do goers Federation for they always could care less about everyone but themselves.
It was not that the Federation was unwilling to help the Maquis start a new life or couldn't give them humanitarian aid. The Problem was that they were forced to abbandon the lifes they had build because of a decision they were not involved in. And than they decided to quit the federation and fight a war against the Cardassians and the Federation simply had no idea how to handle that.
@@markusbarten8269 They offered to move some of the colonists before the treaty went into a effect. The ones that decided to stay were still federation citizen's and were being openly attacked by Cardassians that were armed by the Cardassian central command. Starfleet knew this and didn't act on behalf of their own people, it's the reason why starfleet officers of all ranks left Starfleet to help the colonists.
I think Major Kira sums it up nicely in this clip
ua-cam.com/video/yXYeSak6kqA/v-deo.html
@Troll uNeed Not exactly. When the federation signed the peace treaty with the cardassians the borders were redrawn and some existing federation colonies ended up on the cardassian side of the border. The federation ordered the colonies be moved but some had been there for decades and refused to leave.
In the TNG episode "journeys end" the enterprise is ordered to move a colony of native American indians, by force if necessary. At the end of the episode they modified the treaty for some of the colonies, they would be allowed to stay as federation colonies but would be under the jurisdiction and protection of the Cardassians. Then there are the colonies in the demilitarized zone from both the federation and the cardassians.
Not only did the Cardassians not uphold their end of it by not protecting the colonies we later we find out that the cardassian central command started arming it's civilians with military equipment to attack the federation colonies. When they were exposed the central command tried to pin the blame on Gul Dukat who actually had nothing to do with it. Starfleet also had all this intel via Sisko and did nothing.
3:40 he also doesn’t go out his way to clarify which question he’s answering while having made clear she fielded (2) questions 😉
I’ll be damned...
Wow. That's a really good catch!
Non verbal he messed with his glasses a bit. Kind of like scanning. Idk just an observation.
I did not really get a bad feeling from Croneberg's character aka; Dr Glasses. (I refuse to call him The Doctor on principle,) He's obviously seen a lot and knows a lot more than he intends to let on. I enjoyed watching him spar with Phillipa as much as he seemed to. But I don't think he's part of some grand scheme by Evil Starfleet, Section 31 or the writers for that matter.
I do beleve we'll see him again, probably soon with Pillipa's condition boiling over. I feel like his motives are personal, not mustache twirling "Curse you meddling time travdellers, foiling the plans my associates and I worked so hard on!"
I don't feel like he's the cause of Phillipa's problem like I did right after they spoke and she started siezing up and freaking Burnam out. I think he was just a warning about her attitude on cavalier universe-hopping. These things have consequences.
@@RandomTrek84 32nd century nobody should need glasses, so what are they really?
Starfleet is probably still good but who ever is in charge, is evil
Same as it ever was!
There's a surprisingly high number of "Evil Admirals" in Star Trek lore.
Your right
Vance.
@@Niall001 only because the good ones are either forced out are happily what's remain Starship captains, and quite frankly who could blame them?
@@jasperfox5748 You're not right.
I hadn't even considered star fleet was evil in the new season. My guess is yes, they are stretched thin and doing what they can with the resources they have.
that doesnt make them evil
My question is this: How can StarFleet help anyone if the burn destroyed so many ships and made Warp drive impossible? Wouldn’t the organization simply be ignored by the galaxy and declared defeated? StarFleet would just become a footnote in history.
2:47 The Federation did what it had to do, to preserve the whole. But it suffered a "Total Systems Collapse", meaing it could not do the one thing it tried to do most. Naturally taxing the Planets like this and then failing caused issues.
3:30 I think Philipa was asking "who is in charge of the Galaxy" not "who is in charge of Starfleet". Wich in turn means asking "who was most prepared for/got the most out of the burn happening". And thus might have had a reason to cause it in the first place.
The truth is, it seems to have blindsided everyone equally. The Galaxy is fractured by the lack of quick and reliable FTL, with a thousand warlords vying for power. The Emerald chain is simply one of them. The Federation is a more principled one.
5:00 This was simply Emerald Chain indoctrination for "Federation = Bad". I mean seriously, the way Ryn spoke of "Federation Summer Camp" it sounded like 20th century USSR Gulag. Or at least as 2024 Sanctuar District.
And "clean up your own mess" might be due to the perception it was the Federation that caused the Burn (or forced the member planets to cause the burn), making them responsible for everyone lost to starvation and other suffering since then.
Some things to point out:
- even if this Federation is somehow evil - they do have the Discovery crew to fix that issue. No reason there can not be a bit of a B5 Earth/Colonies civil war. People also compared the setting to Andromeda, wich is fitting. They too had the Namegiving Ship go rogue for a while.
- the Emerald chain is not *the* villain. It is just *a* villain, among many. The klingons were proper antagonists of Seasons 1. So was Control for Season 2. The Emerald chain is more like "the villain of the week" in a 3-part episode.
I have been living under a rock, and this is the first time I've seen your channel.
It seems to me that you have a lot of assimilating to do.
How has this slipped your notice Locutus are the borg so blind as that?
That must have been uncomfortable!
Chris makes great videos.
@@emolash Who is Chris?
"Is Starfleet evil?" I don't think so.
Was the Federation/Starfleet abusive to their member worlds before the Burn? I think so. *Additionally,* I believe that half of the anti-Federation sentiment has been seeded by the Emerald Chain over the past century or so since the Burn.
I think the question of "who's in charge?" is one that really stands out though. Either no one is now in charge, and Glasses Guy wasn't saying that so as not to give Georgiou any ideas, or someone *is* in charge, but no one can do anything about them.
Otherwise known as the "Illuminati Clause".
Well, considering that she is the former Emperor of the genocidal and ridiculously treacherous Terran Empire, I wouldn't be inclined to tell her anything either! Kovich doesn't have stars in his eyes just because she looks like Prime!Georgiou the way that Burnham does. If somebody brought Adolf Hitler to the present from 1945, he would be locked in solitary and not told anything until he was executed.
This guy gets it.
I think you nailed this. It could be the Emerald Chain spreading propaganda, or there could be legitimate.
Admiral Vance could be reluctant to look into the burn because he knows the Federation is in some way at least partly responsible, or perhaps since it has remained unsolved since before he was born, he sees no rush to figure it out especially since his fleet is spread thin.
We discovered this latest episode the burn origin point is centered on a Federation distress call. And as far as we know Admiral Vance hasn't been given a report on this yet. Though he doesn't have appeared to try and stop Discovery from figuring this out; he allows them to use the black box retrieved from Burnham's rogue mission and the SB-19 data. On the other hand, maybe he doesn't see an issue with them uncovering a horrible truth since they're under his command regardless.
With the fetish of hollywood of having previously good things be bad, pretty sure the "twist" is that the federation is the bad guy
At this point, I would not surprised by this in the least.
It's not even a twist anymore.
That's such an overused thing in Trek. Hell, the first "evil" Admiral is Cartwright back in ST:VI, there was one in TNG, one in DS9, and one in ST IX.
I'm getting bad vibes from the current Fleet Admiral, but it could legitimately be he's just got too much on his plate
Fetishes?? You mean Hollywood isn't pure as the driven snow???????
"That old thing you like is actually bad and icky. Here, have this NEW thing that's super totally better in EVERY way!"
*Queue new totally original the character, effortlessly better in every way than the old ones*
Glad you made this video. I'm not the only one thinking this is comforting.
Starfleet hasn't turned evil. It's just the fault of a Bad Robot and everyone associated with it.
And that Bad Robot is Picard - the Paranoid Android. Brain the size of a Planet, Starfleet shoved a plug up his arse and he's the brain. Life, don't talk to Picard about life.
I don't think Discovery is a bad robot product
@@danielpaquet3963 You are correct, but the problems started with Bad Robot's movies and have been made worse since then by Alex Kurtzman, one of the writers of the Bad Robot movies.
32nd Starfleet is ran by Starfleet Admirals. They finally got their way.
I was worried about spoilers, but I watched it anyway, and you did such a good job of just barely not really spoiling anything, thanks!
Right on, Lore. Your final statements at the end of the video are spot on. That, too, is also the "reason" behind Trek in general, as well.
TNG and the TNG movies (And the Picard show) had several hints that Star Fleet was becoming more willing to ignore civil rights for the greater good.
It's possible that they are currently evil. Or that they are controlled by evil (TNG Conspiracy episode for example), but it also possible that they were evil and the burn has left them in a position to reform.
Calling it now.
Starfleet is still good, they just don't know they're serving the agenda of a more powerful Section 31 and those holos glasses man were using are actually extensions of Control.
The season will end with Starfleet rebelling against control and we'll get a weird nostalgia grab with finally learning what happened to this era's Enterprise.
Why? Because modern television and it's need for a "connected cohesive narrative" dictates it
"cohesive narrative" now there's your problem. STD doesn't have that. It's a garbage fan fic given budget.
@@Mate397 it’s simply terrible, isn’t it!!!
I'll bet you one GoT Season 7 that no one cares about cohesive narrative. They've got time travel and instant space transit. No one cares about connected and cohesive.
@@andrewjones2453 no one except the showrunners and it really shows just how poorly they execute it.
@@Mate397
(Ooph. This got long. Apologies.
The TLDR is: DSC, and most television these days, doesn't have cohesive narrative done well. Producers are too focused on what comes next and not focused enough on what's happening this second, resulting in bad execution of ideas that are too mutilated at arrival to tell if they were any good to start with)
I never said "connected cohesive narrative" was a good thing.
These days what passes for a cohesive narrative *is* unfortunately what we got with both Discovery and Picard... Since apparently the powers that be forgot that the Dominion war was well written cohesive narrative.
There's too much focus on telling an overarching story, that the end up not having the time, or ability, to give the show anything resembling depth or being well written
There's no way to like, or get invested in characters and stories and it only serves the showrunners agenda.
What agenda do they have? That's up for individual interpertation, but my take is that they spend so much time focusing on not just what the season finale is gonna look like, but the series finale too that they don't have time for episodes that build character, explore ideas, or essentially give us anything that resembles classic Trek..
Love or hate TOS, but they at least had to good sense to not have an overall story for the series, just episodic story telling where we organically learned about the characters and their dealings in space.
TNG, DS9, and even VOY did this to a certain extent, but TOS remains the best example of what happens when the creators focus on character driven storytelling (with adimmtadly more likeable characters) that isn't all about setting up the next episode, the next arc, the next season.
When creators start focusing on what comes next, whatever happens "now" becomes shoddy at best because they're too busy looking fifteen episodes ahead instead of just going from story to story.
Of course I know TOS doesn't technologically hold up today from a cinematography perspective, and they were rushing to get episodes out just due to the nature of 60s television.... But if they could do as good as they did in the 60s when it comes to storytelling.... Why can't they do it today?
As you may have guessed, I'd bet every penny I have on them putting to much focus on what comes next to actually care about what happens in the episodes that have been made.
(Also for those who care I would level these same accusations about not caring about the individual installments and focusing too much on what comes next at modern Star Wars and Marvel as well, and it's only gonna get worse as studios realize more and more that nerd frenzies are profitable..... You'd think the Ferengi were real and that they ran the entertainment industry.....)
I, personally, would love to see an evil lurking beneath...but, then, I'm a Lovecraft kinda guy.
Yes, I like that idea, I had an idea of Star Wars being in a Lovecraftian universe, the Dark Side is a manifestation of Nyarlathotep
The aliens from the TNG episode 'Conspiracy' weren't really defeated, so they could return and takeover the Federation, especially Starfleet high command like before, again.
I'm not sure whether asking "is Starfleet evil" is the right way to frame the question. Instead, I think it might be better to ask whether 32nd century Starfleet's approach to living up to its 24th century values has undermined the values themselves. The Federation and Starfleet have always been heavily administrative and bureaucratized -- and that approach worked well in the halcyon days of the 24th century when there was, for the most part, enough dilithium and other resources to administer -- but in the context of extreme scarcity and political fragmentation, that approach might have quickly turned cold, calculating, and cynical. With inadequate tools to meet the new challenge presented by the Burn, Starfleet made bad choices in order to survive, and that alienated member planets. Over time, these choices fundamentally changed the identity of Starfleet.
I really hope the show doesn't portray Starfleet as "evil" because of a man behind the curtain -- like Section 31 -- but rather because of its own internal contradictions and the necessity to betray its own values in order to survive in an irrevocably altered political landscape. I really love that the plot so far has been motivated by bridging the gap between 23rd century and 32nd century Starfleet values.
Don't humans always turn evil when disaster strikes? Look at the 100.
@@SeansModelBuilds I don't think so. Not always. It always depends on what the disaster is and what kind of institution/state/community it happens to.
@@jonathanradocay6902 And the self-discipline of the people involved when the Justice System(External Conscience) collapses?
@@SeansModelBuilds Just because state-run or institutional forms of law enforcement and justice may collapse in a disaster doesn't mean that communities don't have the means to govern themselves. Lack of a state does not equal anarchy.
Yes, that would be interesting but this new Trek shies away from complexity, so a "bad guy" or an "evil organization" is more likely.
This is why Omega and Iconian gateways (or at least gateway like technology) are important, and should be used or considered an option for use
As if Kurtzman & Co even know what that is.
@@sethzwicker3631 true, but that's why I said Iconian like gateway, and it doesn't have to be Omega, as long as it some sort of stand in or Omega like substance
@@sethzwicker3631 Also, even the bare minimum of research should teach him what those are. Now, if he'll just do it for once
@Troll uNeed lol
Oh no!
The prime directive exists.
Starfleet was always evil.
Part of me thinks that 32nd Starfleet is so wounded that those apart of Starfleet still has just lost hope because of how hopeless it feels while those looking in see the smiles and know the legend of the organization. Basically the shiny knight who when alone cries because their failures. But knowing the people behind this show...I'm very wary because they may just go for the easy and generic answer of corrupt Starfleet
Love your videos Chris.
I am glad I am not the only one who picked that up. Thank you
Very good video lore keep them coming
I really hope Starfleet isn't evil too.
However, it will be great drama. The 900 hundred year crew arrive and save a dystopian Federation.
@@shawn2004grad I dunno. It would be difficult to bring back the Federation after that and Star Trek just wouldn't be Star Trek if the Federation were gone entirely.
@@crippletime Good and evil are subjective. Remember, Michael Eddington compared the Federation to the Borg. He said at least the Borg tell you when you're going to be assimilated. The Federation doesn't.
@@crippletime The federation wouldn't be gone but rebuilt from the crew of the Discovery. It would be similar to the show Enterprise in that they need to build alliances and create a federation but it wouldn't be a prequel.
@@binfernus When I say it would be gone I mean I don't trust Discovery writers to do a good job of bringing it back.
The way I have taken this was, They are having to abandon certain critical situation because they don't have the resources and it has caused high casualties due to them given up. It also makes sense if they are struggling for resources and manpower it maybe a case they are picking fights they can win and get a decent award for helping. But I agree I hope it's not a case of a greater evil or something
Saru reminds me of Saint Walker a Blue Lantern. The Blue Lanterns are the embodiment of hope. Just thought that was a rather apt considering that topic of _hope._
Good theory! Thinking some kind of realization like this is coming our way...
From a certain point of you the man and the glasses and you may have mentioned this and I missed it answered both questions
Star fleet is always seen by evil by its enemies. The quark root beer scene from ds9 shows how some of the main aliens out side the federation see the federation. Disco season one shows how the kingOns was them as the bad guys. In it’s the romulans and klingons certainly don’t see the federation as the good guys, in ds no one see the federation as the good guys not even the bajorans. Fleets main concern is and always has been protecting itself not taking care of other people outside their protection, ie look how they treat the maquis or the people in insurrection.
You can't protect people that don't want your protection. One of the problems with the Federation is that Starfleet makes too many decisions for it. The Federation and Starfleet are two separate things. The Federation is civilian leadership and Starfleet is military leadership. It's perfectly acceptable for Starfleet to be ALL about defending the Federation and its members. It's not so acceptable when Starfleet makes too many decisions about the lives of citizens within the Federation.
As an example: Deep Space 9, the space station was a Starfleet installation with Starfleet/Bajoran leadership reporting to other Starfleet leadership and Bajoran leadership. There was very little civilian inspection as to whether Bajor was suitable for joining the Federation, it was consistent Starfleet oversight of the whole thing. Is the military the best judge of whether a planet is worthy of joining the Federation?
@@Dalek7823 while the federation and star fleet are two different things you cant ignore that star fleet is a part of and reports to the federation. Its like how the US military answers to the civilian president. Also the only reason star fleet is even on DS9 is cuz the federation (civilian government) negotiated for it to be so as part of determining if bajor is suitable to join the federation, its not there cuz the station is important to defending the federation and its people (the main goal of star fleet). So i do not agree with the statement there is very little civilian inspection of bajor's suitability to join the federation. Because ultimately star fleet answers and reports what it does and what it learns of bajor to the federation, who can pull star fleet out when ever it sees fit. Just as the federation decides who star fleet does and doesnt help, star fleet is not autonomous and has to get what it does ok'd by the federation leadership.
@Troll uNeed the maquis were federation citizens who settled on federation planets that the federation then ceded to the carries . They didn't not settle on planets that belonged to others originally. The fact the federation didnt ask them what theywanted and abandonded them shows they aren't always the good guys even to their own people...
Serving the many at the cost of the one is how you get the Warhammer 40k universe. Grim and Dark.
Maybe it could be applied similarly to how we view the Roman empire, countries arguing over who is the true successor to the federation. We haven't exactly connected the dots for that initial starbase to anywhere else.
Just a thought...
Before closing off, the tarrin universe merged for an instant with the main universe. This allowed a lot to cross and causing the burn. This also allowed some to act for star fleet in a negative way.
There is the Short Trek of the traveler who is saved by a derelict Discovery. He mentions an evil power whose name is similar to Federation. I believe that short Trek ties in to the season finale to come (on season 3).
Yes! The V’draysh! Also I believe they are mentioned in the season 3 opener.
But the derelict discovery is based on the old discovery, no refit at all, even they cant make their own continuity right
@@alternative915 well that could just be that they didnt finish the design for the refit discovery.
@@acidflux99 Yes, V'draysh is the name the man gave the Federation.
@@gabrielkline2581 @Alternative They could also creatively retcon the derelict Discovery to explain the lack of refit....another alternate timeline, or an un-refit followed by time travel again for some reason, etc. That would restore continuity. Gabriel I am starting to speculate that post Burn there may be two Federation factions at play. The one we have seen is still a benevolent Federation. The V'Draysh is another part of the Federation far away and disconnected from what we have seen because of the Burn. The V'Draysh under different circumstances and conditions could have been forced to become, less benevolent and more harsh. Just speculation.
This video appears to be prescient and insightful. Can't wait to see how it comes out.
It will be interesting to see how things turn out.
You may have a point.
So far we have seen the opinions of Humans (Earth), Vulcans (Ni'Var), and that of at least one Andorian none of whom held the Federation or Starfleet in high regard. And that is coming from the descendants of three of the four founding races of the Federation.
We all have to face the fact they've been hinting at - Burnham crying *caused* The Burn.
Burnies salty tears interacted with the dilithium some how ...Dang...
In the last 1000 year ethics have dramatically changed, in virtually every aspect of our lives. It would be crazy to think there wasn’t a shift in the ethical center of good and evil.
I’m also surprised how little they have technically advanced. Leif Erickson joining up with the Danish navy for special assignments.
That’s what we should be seeing. Now they have the same tech, just improved. I’d expect Iconian gateways, not just personal transporters.
nice analysis
If Starfleet really is about Good, then it's got to be Good all the time. You're right, we really need Star Trek right now. One of my favorite UA-camrs points out that either we shoot for the Federation, I or we accept Mad Max.
“The time is always right to do the right thing.” -- Martin Luther King Jr.
We saw a hint in Picard where the Federation began to pick their battles and who they save after Mars. Though all throughout trek history, the federation has had many enemies for just being Federation.
Awesome video Lore but I am not convinced they are evil just yet...
Benjamin Sisko allowed a Romulan Senator and a random criminal to be killed by Garak just to get the Romulans into the Dominion War, and Sisko basically implied that Worf should kill Gowron because Gowron's jealousy of Martok and personal ambitions were compromising the coalition efforts in the Dominion War.
Adding to that, Sisko also fired quantum torpedoes on a Maquis planet that scattered trilithium resin in the atmosphere, thus making the the planet uninhabitable and potentially harming and killing civilians in the planet, just to flush out Michael Eddington.
Speaking of the Maquis, the Federation did abandon Federation citizens and Federation planets to the Cardassians for the sake of "peace" with the Cardassians, which caused the creation of the Maquis in the first place.
On another note, Captain Archer of Enterprise NX-01 did raid and attack a largely defenseless alien ship (an act of piracy), just to steal their warp core in order to stop the Xindi from deploying the Xindi weapon. Whilst I do understand the rationale of this, Archer did still condemn these aliens to just die out there in space alone, with little supplies, that wouldn't have lasted them very long.
It's not hard to believe that overtime, in order to protect the needs of the many (or rather as many people as they can help), Starfleet and the Federation have had to abandon some of their ethics and values, become more authoritarian and become more "evil", in order for the Federation to ensure the survival of the Federation (or at least what's left of it). As Sisko and Archer have shown, the potential does exist.
It's the laziest plot twist they could possibly use, so i could see it happening later in the season...
That would be one hell of an arc. But isnt that the path of all great empires? They get formed with great ideals then decay into corruption and become the evil empire?
Just a random thought. In the Dr Who universe The Solar system left the federation
See Caves of Androzani.
I actually love the idea of The Federation being evil. Coming across as good and noble but being rotten to the core when you dig deeper. Rather than a good organization with a few bad apples, a bad organization with a few good apples. That way the crew of Discovery could come to represent what the Federation could be rather than what the Federation is. This creates interesting conflict as the values of the early Federation buts heads with a Post Burn Federation.
I have wondered this myself actually. While I would expect the Federation to be different in the 32nd century even with out the Burn, I kind of think that the ex members are upset because after the burn they were left on there own. Or at least something to that effect anyway.
Discovery's thing in the first two seasons was to pull the carpet from under the feet of the audience and to show that people and organizations are not what they seem. So it's logical that the same will take place in the third season. But - Starfleet is unlikely to be the only thing which is not what it seems. Ask yourself: Which new character(s) will also show up to be something else than what they appear.
Lore Master, how am I getting your uploaded videos on my phone hours or days after the original upload, but my PS3 gets those uploads quick?
Perhaps after the Burn happened a % of Star Fleet captains acted a little bit like Archer did when he stole the Warp coil off an alien ship, leaving them stranded in the Expanse, that type of action over a the Federation space would leave scars, from protectors to privateers, or mutineers, officers and crew desperate to get home from where ever they are, not caring who got hurt just wanting to find out if their families and home world survived.
Yea, the federation turning out to be the heavy would suck major ****. So far it is obvious that they were culpable for "the burn" but not directly. Should be interesting to see how this plays out.
Ya I think after the dilithium was running out, they became authoritarian forcing all members find alternatives and when the Burn happened, they only cared for worlds/members nearby if they had any ships.
If Starfleet is a building made up of programmable matter, can't they reconfigure even the hallways into bio beds and whatever else they'd need??
At least two obstacles to that: First is energy...just like 24th century replicators, you need to power them to make stuff. If they don't have the energy to convert the matter into what they need, point is moot.
Second is similar to the problem we have now...manpower. You can have thousands of biobeds, but without staff (even if it's exocomps, holograms, androids, etc. not just organics) then who's going to treat people? Sure the computer could but it still needs to be run by someone/told what to do...unless there's an AI running everything now?
There is a lot they could do with this stuff.
Hard to say, still on season one here, but Starfleet has had those times in the other series where they walked that thin line of choosing what is right and choosing to survive.
So far the Admiral has been cool although I suspect the full story of why planets left a federation will be revealed we got glances of that with the Navarre episode
about time somebody brings things up. There's been a few hints that nobody actually trusts star fleet. I thought at first it was because they "abandoned" the galaxy. However, it seems more and more like Star Fleet did something real bad, super bad in the past and actually isn't trusted AT ALL. Evil possible, dangerous, definitely.
They'll make us and the Disco crew think Starfleet is evil with these little hints but they won't be really.
Oh wait, yeah, their track record...
Ok, Mirror Burnham has taken over Starfleet and is pulling the strings from behind the scenes.
We have heard negative opinions on Starfleet from founding members Earth, Vulcan and Andor. It would be interesting to hear from the Tellarites. The breakdown of Starfleet was evident in ST: Picard.
When Discovery jumped to Earth back in episode 3 or 4 I expected that to be a definite change of field, since there was so little certainty up until then on whether Earth even existed any longer. The fact that the Emerald Chain is apparently active and under the same leadership on both grounds made me reconsider that. We knew from episode 1 that the restrictions in warp drive due to the Burn are not absolute, but these latest episodes have made them appear little more than political in nature.
I think that the creative team lost track of their own established parameters somewhere along the season. We have gone from Starfleet and the Federation being "ghosts" to be freely disregarded to having a reputation of always demanding a price in about seven episodes.
I would attribute that to the physical distances involved and the political consequences of same, except that Osyraa seems to have as little trouble travelling back and forth between the two environments as Discovery itself has. That is consistent with the reach of the Emerald Chain, but not with my current understanding of how difficult and expensive it is to warp travel these days. Ryn's secret as revealed in this episode adds to that mismatch of perceptions. I somewhat hope that these apparent discrepancies are intentional and will be explained shortly in a story involving the Emerald Chain.
There are also cultural consequences. Even if we assume that the Emerald Chain is the only significant group capable of regular warp travel these days and take into account that they are slave-oriented and ruthlessly competitive, it is still difficult to believe that Earth's and the Federation's situations would be quite as mysterious as we were told in episode one.
As of "Sanctuary" the perceptions about the geopolitical situation are put into significant question. But I don't think that has much to do with the Federation, which is at this point nearly a clandestine group of rebels. And using that word makes me think of how much Detmer looked like a X-Wing pilot in this episode. Maybe the current status quo is indeed a lot like Star Wars, with the Emerald Chain in the role of the Empire. That will take some getting used to and hopefully won't last very long, but it could be an interesting setup if used with the proper care.
But going back to Starfleet and the Federation, I think that we can't assume too much yet. Admiral Vance IIRC told us that the two entities are basically one and the same at the current time. I don't think that he is lying, if only because it would be too difficult to maintain such a lie. I do attribute Ryn's protests to propaganda learned from inside the Emerald Chain, who is clearly a rival or enemy to the Federation and not big on spreading information from other sources.
The Ni'Var president's reservations are more substantial. She is clearly up to date with the Federation's activities at least up until the Burn. We can stand all but certain that even pre-Burn the Federation had become considerably more difficult to manage and more conflicted than it was in the 25th century. I hope that this will lead to a theme of the challenges of attempting fair politics, not least because that is where Discovery excels as a series. A Federation that is no longer on speaking terms with Earth and Ni'Var is a considerably more alien reality than we have really explored so far, and deserves more screen time.
I was picking up those same vibes. Even to the point that I was wondering if they were going to reveal that this was the mirror universe. We will have to wait and see how it all plays out. Regardless I doubt that this is the prime timeline.
Maybe I'm wrong...but i can't shake the feeling...
When Burnham inevitably 'fixes' the Burn - it will be wiped from history, rewriting the future, and thus - nothing we're currently seeing actually matters.
Are Starfleet good or evil? Doesn't matter. Burnham will 'fix' the timeline.
.........Yay Burnham.....ergh 🤢
I always opt out from time travel shows. Unfortunately, most ST lately is a time travel show. Frankly, I'm not sure why anyone thinks there's a such thing as canon or in world history or even consequences. To be fair to the writers, most major properties in SFF have this problem lately.
Or they fix the Burn only to figure out it was there to prevent something even worse. I mean if large scale warp travel becomes possible again there will be those that want to exploit that.
Look, it is even worse:
The Burn
Burnham
The Burn-ham
She caused it
I find it a bit suspicious that we've never seen, visited, or even learned about one of the remaining 38 Federation worlds. What are conditions like on those planets? Do they even exist? Isn't it striking that all of the old core Federation worlds we've visited or heard from -- Earth, Ni'Var, Andor, Trill -- left the Federation on bad terms? What made the last 38 stay, when the founding planets quit?
Hello Lore runner. The lady actually asked one question, Followed by a statement of; "Who was responsible..."
Implying the Federation is/was. What do you think?
Perhaps one of the first times you see that the Federation/Starfleet isn't all good is in Star Trek: the undiscovered country. There were people that wanted to keep the conflict with the Klingons going. Even good ol' Kirk for a time.
A desperation to survive drives desperate behaviour. This behaviour can be good or evil.
Maybe not so much evil, but even 24th century Starfleet officers considered 20th/21st people as uncivilized barbarians because they believed they had move beyond their brutality, ignorance and injustice. That they had the moral and ethical wisdom for the federation to create laws that everyone even non federation should abide by.
How many time did we see Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Janeway get involved in situations OUTSIDE federation space, that wasn't under federation law or Starfleet jurisdiction and had nothing to do with them just because they believed they had the moral high ground and right to do so.
Ramp that up to the 29th century when a timeship was going to kill voyagers entire crew with no hesitation even when they wasn't the cause. They'd become bureaucratic and possibly imperialistic, adhering to the belief that their achievements have them the right to dictate events as they see fit. They've become arrogant and self righteous
Rewatch the Klingon speech in season 1 " Too lock arms against those whose failed greeting is... We come in peace " they knew what the federation would become.
I think when the man in the glasses answered he answered both questions. Meaning no one is clearly in charge, maybe there are factions vying for power.
Be interesting if there are multiple Feds and starfleets all claiming to be the one true ufp and sf.
The fact that everyone is saying the federation sucks, and the discovery doesn't actually know this federation but has to vouch for them is screaming that starfleet will make a turn for the worst. Its much more interesting narratively to have the discovery crew determine who they are in a world with a corrupt federation than it is for them to just take orders from good guys in a bad spot.
When they visited Earth itself, early in the season, Earth did not seem to have any particularly negative things to say. They'd become isolated and self sufficient since the Federation had withdrawn, but didn't seem to have any hard feelings. I have issues with the dilithium shortage. If you can beam it through a transporter, you should be able to replicate it.
Just remember, this is a show about Michael. You can't have her be the savior of Starfleet without something terrible being wrong with it that she alone needs to discover and correct.
I think if starfleet became the bad guys that would be great. There have always been holes in the philosophy of star fleet that had the potential to lead it down a dark path. To me a valuable question is, if something was once good and the becomes a force for evil what do you do with that? Do you reform it? Do you revolt? How do you redeem it? Is it redeemable? Yes give us this.
By the 32nd century, the Federation is 1,000 years old. It's not hard to imagin that some periods in that long history would have been rather dark. I believe that the Federation and Starfleet's leadership may have made questionnable or even outright evil choices in the past which lead to several worlds (even founding members like Earth, Vulcan and Andoria) to leave it. That does not mean that the present leadership is evil though.
Things changed over 930 years. This problem was actually emerged in Picard. Federation members balked at the cost of relocating 'enemy' Romulans. The Federation pulled out when Utopia Planetia was blown-up, opting to serve the many Federation worlds. If they continued serving the many over the few, they probably broke many treaties and promises over the centuries with UFP members. That's bound to change their reputation. There were only six stars on the Federation flag in Discovery S3E1. Seems like Member worlds had been abandoning the UFP long before the Burn.
Michael should've picked up more history in that year without Discovery.
Just got this channel recommended, and I don't know why. I don't even watch Star Trek and never had, i was always more of a Star Wars fan.
Still, you seem cool though, imma stick around.
Sooo.. the 32nd century star fleet badge ( also seen in the opening) looks eerily similar to the borg emblem, maybe it’s just me, but foreshadowing perhaps, I mean, they exist and are more powerful than the others
Could it be another mirror universe with a pragmatic version that’s between the prime and Terran universe ? Probably not but who knows with all the time jumps and time travel that may have changed the time line ?
I guess it would be like: A town faces a famine, your family and a few others have been preppers and you have a stock pile and everyone knows it. The mayor asks you to give some food to help others but when what you give isnt enough the mayor orders the police to take most of your stock pile to be distributed to the rest of the town. Some might protest or even actively fight to prevent this. When another famine strikes, the town comes to you again. This time you say you only have enough for your own family. The Mayor orders the police to take everything this time, some of your family starve as a result. A third famine hits, when the Mayor and his police show up this time, no words are exchanged, only bullets.
I'm okay with Dystopian Federation/Starfleet if they're overthrown and put right again. But if the message of this season is "the Federation is just bad and you were wrong for wanting it to be a beacon of hope" then that will probably cement my hatred for these writers.
@Troll uNeed I meant that it would be reformed, not completely destroyed.
Still trying to figure out 03:28 once we know who this guy is we'll have a better idea of the Federation's structure and morality in this timeline.
In Star Trek very few characters have needed glasses. Kirk had glasses as he was allergic to Retinax 5, La Forge had a VISOR which was then replaced with ocular implants. He even get's asked why he has glasses and mentions "they make him look smarter", whilst that may or may not be the answer the fact that (if I recall correctly) the first question he gets asked by Georgiou is about his glasses reinforces that they are unusual as there are probably 50 questions she could have asked which would have seemed more significant.
The first hard question(s) he is asked and he immediately touches his glasses. Whilst fiddling with his glasses he is keeping direct eye contact but as soon as he stops and starts to respond he keeps breaking eye contact but doesn't turn his head away. Are they Doctor Who style 'Sonic glasses', a HUD of some kind or is it a tell? Is it because he is Terran himself and we know that their eyes are different?
It's also interesting that he is asked, as he points out, two questions but never specifically states which one he is answering and the vague answer he does give is worded in such a way that it could answer either question.
I believe that after the Discovery left the year 2258 for the future taking her crew including the Terran Empress, Georgiou, an all but decimated Section 31 scrambled to rebuild themselves.
In the Mirror Universe, humanity began paying for their sins as the rebel alliance grew in power and start the sequence of events that turned the Terran society from an conquering threat to an oppressed and enslaved culture.
Back in the Prime Universe, Section 31 and possibly even elements of Starfleet saw Terran’s as an asset and may have been monitoring the empire’s collapse and realising that with the status quo changing in the Mirror Universe, steps need to be taken to ensure the survival of the Terran attributes that saved the Federation were rescued and incorporated into Section 31.
We saw from the hologram interrogation that the physiological differences Terran’s were identified genetically... just regarding the holograms for a moment. Notice how she used a technique that exploits a flaw in 23rd century holograms and it worked on 32nd century holos? The Glasses man needed to speak to Georgiou but make it look like the other interviews but put in holos that he’d know Georgiou would try to overload. Georigou’s gloating afterwards was more of a “I can’t believe that worked” and she saw it for the ruse that it was and thus the conversation between the Terran Empress and Glass Guy begins. I believe that Section 31 developed a procedure to essentially rewrites Prime Universe human genetics with Terran code. And I believe the genetic variations are tiny as Georgiou said in Season 1 that Terran culture abandoned the ideals that led to the Federation in the Prime universe “a Millenia ago”. It suggests that living with thoughts that entirely selfish or selfless can impact the physical body leading to a divergence over long time spans with hundreds of generations being needed..... so back to what I was saying... ummm After all Section 31 only exists to ensure the survival of Starfleet using whatever means necessary. When the size of the Federation and dwindling dilithium became the threat and the Federation unwilling or unable to change their modus operandi, Section 31 enacted a plan that altered key high ranking Starfleet personnel with Terran personalities. We even know the rough timing which was some years prior to Vulcan leaving Starfleet, 100+ years in the past of the current time the show is set in.
In a nutshell, I believe that Section 31 sought the fundamentally change Starfleet by peppering some Terran way of thinking into it, caused The Burn and stymied the only member planet who could have pieced together the cause. In the aftermath, the behaviour of the Federation particularly around the core member planets changed over to Terran so much that people in general stopped relying on them creating power vacuums that were filled by species like the Orions, Andorrans and possibly others. I suspect that Betazed was particularly subdued as we heard references that empaths are few and far between suggesting that Betazoids were able to detects the changes made by Section 31.
Other things to consider is that we have seen 3 high ranking Federation people. The Glasses guy, the head of Starfleet (who I don’t think has had the Terran changes) and the Trill Admiral. I suspect the Trill Admiral remained on Earth after The Burn and was specifically chosen due to being a joined trill with their longevity. Why he waited 108 years after the burn to send out the message he did is unclear possibly being one in several periodic messages sent with the most recent being 12 years prior to Discovery’s arrival.
Clearly the Terran changes would not impact a Trill and their host resulting in an assassination attempts that failed to kill the Trill but certainly has neutralised the potentially for it to cause issues in its new host... at least for now.
They also had to neutralise Philippa as she was starting to piece together what was going on. I believe the Glasses Man implanted a suicidal suggestion in her so that she eventually kills herself. Or more plausibly, they applied the Terran genetic changes to her because of what the Glasses Man had said to her when he was trying to work out why she was working with a Federation Crew especially being who she was. He eventually worked it out to being a person that Georgiou cares about. Thus they applied the Terran changes to her to quell the selfless traits that have grown in her since crossing over and I believe for two very specific reasons. Firstly, to keep her from seeing the truth. Secondly, Section 31 would have had no fricking idea that the spore drive even existed and then to appear on a 900 year old ship that official records don’t even state the existence of the technology and it threatens their plans in some way. And what better way to explain the destruction of such a valuable ship... destroyed by a Terran Universe infiltrator and the Empress of the Terrans at the height of their power. Clues supporting this come from the latest episode where she is verbalising her newly enhanced Terran personality that the Doctor called out as her being scared shitless and trying to put on a brave face. Eventually it won’t be just verbally expressed.. she will be physically expressing it too.
An additional possibility is that the Romulan’s assisted Section 31 in some way and I suspect probably the Tal Shiar or maybe on the Vulcan side with the Logic Extremists coming to mind. There was clearly division between the two species with the Romulan’s openly disagreeing with their own quorum members but also two distinct personalities from the Vulcans.
Other things we know... the Orion’s are running out of dilithium and Earth is sitting on a mountain of it but no longer in the federation. Notice how there was no ship debris over the Earth? It is possibly Section 31 flicked the switch to start the Burn, ensured that Earth had a massive supply and an armarda of ships powered down to survive it. Afterwards, Starfleet moved away from Earth and his itself leaving a military force to guard it behind a planetary defence system. They followed orders so well that a group of miners from Titan who tried to go to Earth for help were attacked as the Federation was no longer there only a military fortification. And what are Section 31 now waiting for? Well that’s simple... for everyone to run out of dilithium which effectively puts the Prime Universe into a similar scenario that the Terran Universe was in following the arrival of the future Defiant that began the reign of Empress Sato. Ask yourself this... if you suddenly became a Terran and realising the universe you’d rather call home can’t be reached anymore, you would just “Terran-Form” the Prime Universe instead wouldn’t ya? So I think Section 31 has done it again. They unleashed a genie from the bottle to save the Federation that has got away from them.
Thank you for this video.
Where’s Daniels when we need him?!
If they go this route, I just question whether it’s the Federation as a whole, or jut some shadow government. Star fleet is not the whole of the Federation. Perhaps a big part of the remnants in this era, but not a whole. So, if they put a cup or rust influence in there, it would be a matter of where it is in the power structure.
It isn’t necessarily a bad narrative, if done right. Plenty of power structures experience golden ages that devolve into some form of tyranny and dysfunction. We’ve been shown what can happen multiple times when Starfleet and the Federation cross into the grey areas. Deep Space Nine and Picard have shown this aspect quite well, when fear and desperation pushes something too far. To extend that further in time, after a (many?) temporal war(s) and the burn would be an interesting thing to look into.
To be honest that conversation with the man in the glasses is going to be critical and I haven’t seen anyone talking about this but when I first watched that scene I got the impression that they had not jumped to where they planned to jump to I don’t think that this is in the same timeline that they left the way it seems especially from what the man in the glasses said to gerogo I think they are in the mirror universe idk why but it just really seems that way cause that guy knew way too much for it to not be
It...would suck if it were something like Starfleet & the Federation turning evil. My guess is that even way before The Burn, perhaps Section 31 took complete control of Starfleet and eventually the Federation. What was with the time wars of the 26th century's Enterprise-J? Or others like the Relativity seen in Voyager? I mean, why would the Federation try to expand beyond what it was capable of handling?
I share your worries. You just have to remember Lorca. I admit, he was my favorite character on the show, so I’m probably biased. But I still think that through most part of the first season he was not portrait to be villainous in any why. He helped people, he was very lenient when Stamits (sp?) was out right insubordinate... yet the just made the flip at the end: He’s from the Mirror Universe, he’s evil, no discussion!
I see a more of the fall of Rome allegory going on. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a "eastern orthodox" version of the federation out there.
I thought about that, too: Successor states like to adopt the symbolism of ancient forbears, but peope's beliefs change dramatically, down through the centuries. Long after the Roman Empire fell, rival successor states advertised themselves as its continuation -- often simultaneously. But none of them worshiped Olympian gods, few claimants to the legacy were ever based in the city of Rome again. At the same time, people across Europe adopted former Roman titles to ennoble their social station: kings declared themselves "Kaiser" or "Tsar" after Caesar; Churches preserved the titles of Pontifex/Pope, Ebiscopus/Bishop, Vicar, etc; aristocrats clung to the Roman military ranks of Dux/Duke, Comte/Count; people styled their representative governments "republics," more aristocratic representatives "senators," judges "magistrates" and chief executives "consuls"; etc.
Arguably, the real surprise would be that Vance's Federation/Starfleet entirely kept the faith after a thousand years, a time war, the desertion of the core worlds, and a catastrophe depriving everyone of high warp speed travel.
Ok, Starfleet in the 32nd century is really the reborn Terran Empire in disguise, led in secret by the surviving Gabriel Lorca! ;)
Section 31 claimed to be sanctioned by the original Starfleet Charter, Article 14, Section 31 of which allowed for extraordinary measures to be taken in times of extreme threat. By the time of the Dominion War, at least some of Starfleet Command's top officers knew for certain of Section 31's existence, and on occasion even worked with them to serve the interests of the Federation. However, for the sake of propriety, they tended to keep as much distance from the organization as possible. By the mid-23rd century, Section 31 operated with some level of oversight from Starfleet. All admirals uploaded reports to Control, an artificial intelligence threat assessment system. By 2380, the existence of Section 31 was no longer a closely held secret. It stands to reason that Section 31 remained in existence and that its power only grew in response to the Burn, the type of extreme threat it was specifically set up to deal with. It also makes sense from a story perspective given that Control, the reason why Discovery jumped into the future, was directly involved in Section 31 and Ash Tyler was made commander of Section 31 by the time Discovery jumped into the future. Those two elements are bound to come into play at some point. So is Starfleet evil? Probably not because where do you go from there, but key personnel might be working with Section 31, influencing decisions, manipulating events and it may have pushed Starfleet away from its moral high ground as times grew more desperate. I suspect at some point Discovery will be key in purging Starfleet of Section 31's influence and restoring its moral standing.
I do think with the mention of the Federation distress signal from the origin point of the Burn indicates they probably know more than they give on. I feel like Starfleet somehow caused the burn out of desperation and deeply regret it, they are didn't mean for it to go that far and then it happened. And that put the nail in the coffin for the old federation. I think the survivors we see of the Federation are trying to rebuild and find new ways of doing things.
I think like with Ni'var's feelings of guilt about SB-19, the Federation might feel a similar guilt. Potentially however they don't even know they caused it but a one off science mission like a future Enterprise somehow did and the Burn happened and no one knows why or what.
I really think Vance isn't evil or authoritarian, as mentioned I think he is pragmatic, he doesn't give out everything in terms of information because like most leaders I guess he is wary of something becoming public knowledge. Potentially however Section 31 exists still and is the issue at hand, this could lead to an interesting story were we have to see the conflict between S31 and the Federations ideals? Maybe they need to decide that they need to let go off that part?
Idk if it somehow shows that the Federation caused the burn, I won't take it as "evil" unless proven it was intentional. Accidents happen, this would just have been a really bad one :/
Ooh, I'm interested in a Star Fleet that has lost its way. Not that they are evil but perhaps the trying times made them make less than ideal decisions.
I would love that.
It is easy to make right decisions when everything is going right, how will they react when they are down on their knees.
I've been noticing this too. I wander if Starfleet isn't (allowed by agreement) to exist under a warlord's protection.
The man in the glasses is David Cronenberg.
Honestly, I think they just stretched themselves too thin. Became overly expansionist (hell, cutting the timetable for Bajor to enter the Federation likely opened the door for faster entrance of member worlds). So, of course, those worlds furthest from the core would have a good view of Starfleet, as they would be more recent members who were recipients of greater military protection and aide, while the core worlds would increasingly see a Federation they no longer could control and no longer served them (yes, maybe a bit greedy, but planets do need to put their citizens first). We see hints of this in Picard, where the multiple member worlds threatened to pull out if they continued to help the Romulans.
I think simplest explanation given the tidbits is the Federation did a reversal of sorts from DS9 and TNG. The Maquis felt the Federation abandoned them, and Picard was willing to let pre-warp civilizations die to natural disasters, so what if they changed.
What if the Federation and Starfleet wanted to save everyone and it was the core members who felt abandoned. Note how it’s the Vulcans, Orions, and Andorians who mistrust the Federation, but the Romulans were eager to stay. Peak dilithium is also stated to be due to doing too much, so maybe too many ships, too many great projects, too many new members too quickly?
I agree, an evil Federation is deeply disappointing storyline, we’ve actually had it a few time now too. I’m not counting on it, but I hope the “who is in charge” question wasn’t answered simply because it’s not an interesting question. Maybe there is no one “really” in charge because there are no superpowers, maybe the surface is as deep as it goes. But I had also hoped the music clue was a red herring, so there is likely a big reveal being built. I just hope it isn’t as stupid as in previous seasons, especially since this one has been decent.