I find the Mariner cycle to be quite important actually. She is behaving the way someone who is suffering from mental illness often does. Pulling out, feeling safe, then nosediving even worse than before. She attributes it to a specific trauma but the metaphor is something a lot of us can relate to. It may seem "out of character" and that is why so many people have a hard time relating to or feeling sympathy for those who struggle with mental illness. The question "why are you acting this way you were doing so well..." is something that just hurts sometimes. Growth is not linear if someone is suffering from a mental illness, in this case they are using acute trauma as a metaphor for things like bipolar II, or even substance use disorder. IMO
The difference between people who struggle and sometimes fail and don't just "get better" and characters who have an arc. Audiences expect charcaters to have growth and it goes in one direction because the messy reality is less satisfying.
I agree. I can totally see why Mariner can't handle the promotion. She was traumatized, and we know that Star Fleet absolutely SUCKS at mental health for its officers.
SITO is NOT a DOWN. SHE IS NOT A DOWN!!!! She's not a name drop. It add's so much to both the stories.. and connects the lower decks episode. Let this therapy session matter. Grrrr
If they don't do anything else with that information going forward, then it's a fanservice namedrop. If they do manage to actually work it into the story for the next episode or two, then it it's just poorly planned writing due to a lack of sufficient setup or foreshadowing this season. Sito could've easily been mentioned during any of the other 'low-morale Mariner' moments this season, but it instead feels like it's come out of nowhere in the very same episode that Locarno is also brought back into the modern Star Trek era - either of which, is huge unto themselves - but both in same episode without any 'apparent' foreshadowing this season... let's just say it makes me nervous that the writer may try to bite off more than they can chew in trying to cram all this into 2 (maybe 3?) episodes. TBF though, Sean has been saying all along that he's willing to rescind any downs from his anti 'Mariner Regression' stance if it's simply a case of "Yes, the writers will actually address this, they just haven't yet"
he's right, tho... if Mariner knew Sito, and both Mariner AND Sito knew Locarno, with Locarno being in his mid 40's, then Mariner is also around that age.... and so is Boimler, and Tendi and Rutherford aren't much far behind. granted, Mariner could have been a freshman when the others were seniors nearly graduates... but the difference would be negligible especially knowing Locarno, Wesley, Riker, Seven, and everyone else mentioned AND their time references.... so if Nick is 40+, Mariner is a late 30, pushing 40.
mariner was always older than the other three cause she served on several ships and kept getting demoted because of what happened to Sito. The other three are at the right age to be Ensigns Mariner should prly be a commander by now. @@bcn1gh7h4wk
@@bcn1gh7h4wk However, it is possible that Mariner (both of her parents being in Star Fleet) knew Locarno, Wesley, and Sito while she was still in High School. Plus, Locarno was kicked out of the Academy, whereas Sito was sent back a year, which could easily mean that Mariner knew Sito when Sito was a Senior and Mariner was a Freshman. And who knows how long Star Fleet Academy actually is. Four years? I'd actually suspect that it was somewhat longer, say maybe six years.
Sorry but Mariner's connection to Sito Jaxa was so unexpected and worked for me. And of course Mariner knowing Locarno is why Captain Freeman didn't want her on that mission.
I don't think Sito is just a name drop. 1) it gives a believable origin for Mariner's issues with having authority using a character they've already developed onscreen rather than it just being "random name" that means nothing to us 2) Mariner recognises Nick Locano and he knows her. Mariner mentioning Sito helps tie that in as it places them in the academy together in the same circles. I'll bet you that Sito comes up in the finale as part of why Locano is driving the mutinies. Mariner doesn’t want to be a general sending people to their deaths, Locano wants to overthrow the generals.
Plus it's a clever reference to the show's namesake, the episode Lower Decks. We follow the Lower Decker who stayed a Lower Decker because of Lower Decks
@JordanSagitarria I suspect that's a bit harsh on Sean. I'd be interested to here some clarification from Sean but my suspicion is that he was looking for a more traditional character development of "has problem, gets better, stays better". Star Trek has a habit, both recently and historically, of episodes forgetting what has come before due to all the episodes/shows having different writers so I'd understand assuming it was that rather than it being a representation of a complex healing process with two steps forwards and one step back, progression and regression, something triggering something you thought you were over.
This episode of Lower Decks was one of the best, but this episode of Ups & Downs missed HARD. As much as TrekCulture researches Trek lore, it's jarring that they didn't see the Sito connection coming. The showrunners straight up said the TNG episode "Lower Decks" inspired this show, so it's actually surprising to me that there haven't been *more* callbacks to it. I won't call them "idiots" and say they should've seen it coming from a long way a way, but the "breadcrumbs" were always there - they're just easily dismissed without context. It feels obvious that no one on the staff involved with Ups & Downs knows anyone struggling with PTSD. It IS painful to watch someone who is recovering randomly revert back to their old ways suddenly and unexpectedly, but it's a thing that happens. How Mariner is being portrayed is textbook, and deserves way more respect than Sean & crew is giving it/her.
I was hoping to see Sean make corrections to his previous take in this one but from the comments, I see he’s decided to double down on that instead. That’s a damn shame because he had all the compassion in the word for M’Benga, a guy who may or may not have killed a man in cold blood due to his PTSD when the person responsible would not get out his face about it, so I thought he’d have more compassion here. Black women never get a break, IRL or in fiction 😔 Unsubbing until this channel can learn to do better on this.
@KariIzumi1 "Unsubbing until this channel can learn to do better on this" I banned the channel from my algorithm completely. Kind of a shame since I was looking forward to some of the retro ups & downs, but that's how it goes.
@@nackteHintern Possibly. What's worse is that Sito's end came entirely off-screen. She was only reported K.I.A. And it's only been a little over 10 years in the show's timeline. She could've been alive all this time, hiding and staying ahead of anyone pursuing her. There's no way to truly know without a body. That kind of feeling, of never truly KNOWING if a loved one is actually gone...is absolute agony. Ask any family of those who are still M.I.A. It's a torturous kind of hope. And nothing can ever make it go away, except knowing. And they'll never know.
Honestly I feel dropping Sito in this was perfect, lower decks probably would not have existed withought its name sake and in a way I feel like this brings many stories, old and new full circle.
Remember, Ramsey knew Mariner at the Academy, and she's a Captain, who thought Mariner would be a Captain by now. In TOS Kirk was the youngest captain in the history of the fleet at 35, so even if Ramsay is younger than that, she would'nt be much younger. Probably stil early 30's. So if Epsode Lower Decks takes place in 2369, and show Lower Decks takes place in 2380, assuming she was 21 or 22 when she graduated Starfleet Academy, that would make Mariner also in her early 30's. So this epsidoe didnt mess up her timeline at all. Plus throwing Locarno and Sito Jaxa in is paying Homage to the entire series namesake, the epsiode "Lower Decks"!
I personally LOVE the portrayal of Mariners undiagnosed depression, especially the constant ‘ok one moment, unstable the next…’ nature of the condition… I’ve had friends do this; they been ok one moment and then ‘go off the rails’ the next and brush off attempts to help and even lash out at me for little/no reason… What I cannot fathom is WHY every one of her former COs kept demoting/punishing her rather than looking at MH as a probable cause… they must have had records of her war service!? Does starfleet not include a MH check as part of their annual physicals!?
I was disappointed at a lack of Boimler screams but "teach me to dance Beverly Crusher" made up for it. I think it's an acceptable thing for Mariner to not be over the death of Sito Jaxa, especially if it happened early on in Mariner's Academy years. The talk therapy that Migleemo does is not the fixer for everyone, and Mariner would have gone from the academy and grieving the loss of her friend directly into the Dominion War. It also shows why she is so defensive and acts out every time she gets promoted: she doesn't want to be a Picard ordering someone like her to their death. It's why she never joined in with "The Redshirts" to rank up, and I would guess a lot of mixed feelings were brought up when she saw the Dominion War memorial on Ferenginar. C-PTSD works differently on different people, and I do find it believable that the Klingon from Wej Duj was the better person to talk Mariner through her trauma than her friends. Except maybe T'Lyn, She's Vulcan as a mfer, or so I've heard.
It drives me up the wall that many of those conversations have taken place on the comment sections of his videos! Does it really mean anything when he says something about telling him anything in the comments? Does he actually not read them at all?
@@DarkSapiens The fandom anticipated this like 2 years ago. I guess I can't assume content creators are as deeply intune with those trends and conversations that the audience is having.
I'm having a hard time understanding why Sito is a down... but Locarno is a Latinum up? If Mariner knew one of them, then it's expected that she'd know both. To me this is great backstory.
LD makes frequent use of character cameos - so that's not an issue - Locarno being brought back as a (potential?) adversary fits much more with the vibe of LD and how it handles potential cameos. The insertion of Sito into Mariner's past like this, in the way it's been done so far (out of nowhere, it feels) - in the context of mariner's continued personal struggles this season and also the seriousness of the circumstances we last knew of Sito all those years ago - just has the potential fall very flat, which would diminish both Beckett's self-admittance of her problem and also undo a lot of the emotional gut-punch of TNG's "Lower Decks" itself.
It’s blatantly obvious that the connection to Sito, and thus TNG’s “Lower Decks”, has been there from the very beginning. That, and all of Mariner’s actions over the past four years actually make a hell of a lot of sense in hindsight, including wanting to sacrifice herself to protect others because she’s sick and tired of losing those she cares about. Also, it’s very evocative of “Extreme Risk” from VOY, albeit Mariner’s been perpetually grieving for all this time while hiding it under a shell of rebellion. Losing her role model on top of Dominion War trauma ruined her for life. And as has been stated countless times, one conversation does not magically fix everything. Even the moment she has with Ma’ah (whom you suddenly forgot was a thing) is able to get her to calm down and, while not “magically fixed”, able to function as a proper Starfleet officer.
Given that we already knew that a classmate is now a captain, we already knew she was too old to be an average ensign. As she was fond of saying in S1, she's been around. It's important to point out that she was older than her klingon friend. And she called Locarno "Nick". I'm assuming that she was Red Squadron, but wasn't gung ho enough (back then) to do the Starburst (?) maneuver. What I didn't like was that now people can breach the hull of a Klingon warship with their bare hands. And in retrospect, the Star Wars are obvious. In retrospect.
The thing with Mariner is denial and fear are something you just beat especially if it's been preying on you that long. She's always acted as a sort of Peter Pan character trying to live her own Starfleet dream, apparently to keep the fears expressed in this episode at bay. There's an entire fake Mariner built around her like psychological armour. In light of that the addition to her backstory makes some sense. Also Sito Jaxa being an inspiration adds to Sito's tragic redemption arc. Yes it dates Mariner but it's long been established that she's had a very substantial career before joining the Cerritos, one she never really talks about. If you consider Mariner is probably a year younger than Wesley Crusher (he was 20 in 2368) that still puts her at 32-ish in 2381. In Season 4 Sito's death is 11 years past, that means Mariner has basically had a career as long (and apparently eventful) as Worf's TV one up to the end of DS9. This episode up until the conversation with Ma'ah is Mariner spiraling into breakdown, desperate not to become someone who could kill order Sito to her death. We don't really understand the meaning behind the thousand yard stare Mariner gives on being promoted in Twovix. Also, anyone notice the Motion Picture music cue used for the Bounty Hunter?
Disagree with the down for Sito. This is the justification for Mariner's agnst you asked for and you're downing it. If you don't remember how emotional Sito's last epsiode was go back and watch it. No wonder Mariner had trauma, not wanting to out rank her BFF. Also, she DID recognize Nick at the end.
He did say it was specifically that it was SITO in particular that he was downing. Not the idea that Mariner had this reason. That said I also disagree, I think that it was a character on the Enterprise, such an emblem of Starfleet would add to the connection between her trauma and Starfleet itself.
I'm just happy to see my favorite lower-decker-turned-captain Klingon back and alive. Oh, did no one else notice that Mariner didn't know that T'Lyn was also at the Pakleds battle from a couple seasons ago?
I think it has to be Sito as the "name drop" because it gives a reason for Locarno to be the big bad of the season. I wonder if he is looking for pay back against Starfleet against him and Sito. He was looking for ex Starfleet as he thinks he can turn them to his side. L
if this were done as live action, the script, apart from a few outlying wisecracks, would be as Trek as Trek has been since the 1990s. The morality play, not just the action, plays out more strongly in this episode, and the entire series than it does, in any other new Trek.
Sorry man, but a chat in a single episode would not, and should NOT resolve a trauma. That is not a reversion, is just sitcom BS. Of course you can rationalize your behavior in a conversation, but it wont change said behavior, it doesn't work like that. So, sorry, but you are being pig headed. Mariner has talked through this more than once, but has not done the work, till now (and just beginning at that). Thats good character writting, suddenly her recklessness has a real reason, that explains how she can love starfleet, and act against it at the same time.
Seems like Sean is doubling down on his hate of Mariner more out of spite than anything else at this point. Spite for the character and probably spite for the comments that have tried to explain to him time and again why this explanation of her self-sabotage makes perfect sense. That said, I agree there should've been more bread crumbs leading to Sito.
Sean might get to this (I'm only at 12:00), but they had the Klingon have pinkish-lavender blood like in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (which was done to preserve the film's PG rating as so much red blood might have changed that). Klingon blood was red in ST:TNG and DS9.
Okay so… I understand the breadcrumbs thing. People realizing how long ago Mariner went to the academy or her knowing “the other one” could all have been hints building to this. I agree on that part. But it is quite obviously one of two things. Either Locarno will also have trouble dealing with Sito’s death and have done all he has done because of that. In that scenario Mariner will have to talk to him and help him find a place for these feelings that’s not destructive. Naturally realizing Mariner is on the planet Locarno beamed her out because he thinks she could be an ally on his mission. The other scenario is that Locarno is trying to find Sito, because she’s still alive. But this imho would be the weaker of the options. Both scenario’s can be combined tho. Sito becoming the reason for Locarno to stop his plan to find allies against the Federation. But it’s a stroke of genius to weave Lower Decks into those two episodes of TNG, linking the series to the actual episode it’s based on. I like it, but I also had to kinda get into the idea. I think the next episode will make the link worth it :b
Definitely a lot of Star Wars influence in this episode. The shield around New Axton reminded me of how Star Wars visually implements planet shields, the hats worn by the officers controlling entry to New Axton, there are Star Wars-eque music cues layered in when the shuttle arrives from the moon at New Axton and also when they have the wide arial shot of the communications bunker. Also the ship design of the shuttle in New Axton is way more Star Wars than Star Trek. I found the whole New Axton story to be a bit of what would it be like if Starfleet walked into the Star Wars universe.
I join the chorus on the "agreeing to disagree" about Mariner. At first I was with Seán when the matter apeeared resolved and came back to haunt her on that Ferenginar episode... But in this one, I felt like it was "another step" of her grief (first she was trying to get demoted/expelled from Starfleet, now she is activelly trying to kill herself). And in this process, she is endangering everyone around her, mostly because she is not hinking straight. FOR ME this adds a layer of urgency on her resolving this issue. But anyway, excelent video as always, love having your company to reflect on each episode
Oh another cetacian observation when Mariner was fighting the klingon she used the famous double handed fist smash that has been in almost every live action fight scene.
Two spots that I thought deserved an Up: 1) The uniform pockets bit by Rutherford. 2) When Mariner says "what in the minimalist hell is..." when she awakes after being beamed aboard the weird ship. Two spots that I thought deserved a Down: 1) When Mariner, Boimler, Tendi, and T'Lyn take shelter in the tree, the fact that nobody stands guard on a dangerous world. 2) Jennifer. If Jennifer and Mariner are dating, wouldn't she be involved in what Mariner is going through?? Follow up thought. I think it would be interesting to see how Jen and Mariner interact now that Mariner has been promoted.
Honestly, I was fine with the Sito thing. It throws the timeline a bit off, but it's not the first reference we've had to Mariner being older than she seems, and they clearly wanted a way to tie the series to its spiritual predecessor. My biggest issue with this episode is actually something you gave an Up. I was genuinely bummed out by the reveal that Nick Locarno and Tom Paris are canonically different people. I always subscribed to the fan theory that they were the same person.
The way I see Mariner being in the academy with Sito is she entered the academy very young, it’s already implied she was a child prodigy (wrong show I know) but she may well have been accepted at an early age due to her abilities not to mention she was born on a starship and had been basically in starfleet since she could walk. Yes Wesley didn’t go at an early age but there was a different dynamic and given that his father died serving in starfleet I would imagine his mother wasn’t really pushing him in to it and it becomes clear he really wasn’t either. So I don’t mind the the tie in or name drop but I agree it’s something that could have been introduced in an earlier episode to give more meaning to the scene.
I've heard people here mention Wesley Crusher popping in. As much ptsd as Beckett is suffering due to the Cardassian War, I'd imagine it all started with Joshua Albert. If Wesley snagged the last spot on Nova Squadron beating Beckett out for it, then survivor's guilt could be even worse and Locarno is not going to help that. I've liked this season as it's shown the Lower Deckers growing, especially with the episode about their having separate duties and making their own ways. This looks to be a big finish for our group and frankly, I'm expecting Mariner to spend the between season time recovering. The inclusion of the an OGLDer makes this an epic story.
Think I'm at the point that I just need to not watch Trek Culture covering Lower Decks anymore because as much as they (Sean & the TC writers) don't understand why Mariner's arc is this way or understand the comments, I'm the same way with their negative perception of it because her path very much tracks with my mental illness & trauma that I understand entirely where the Lower Decks writers are coming from with her character.
Sorry completely disagree with your assessment about Mariner - to me it makes perfect sense. If a close friend of mine had died in such a way, I know what I would be like. And it wasn't just that - you missed the whole horror of the Dominion War which surely factors in here too.
It’s always refreshing when you’re outraged about something and head to the comments to make hay and see that every single post is making the same point you wanted to make. Bad calls this week Sean, you my friend are taking some heavy downs.
I am a gigantic fan of Berman-era Trek. It's what I grew up on. But the idea of trauma and recovery being linear and wrapping up in a single episode or two is not only silly, but one of the parts of TNG especially that hasn't aged well. I'm constantly perplexed by the complaints about Jean-Luc Picard regressing from the apparent progress he made dealing with his assimilation in "Family" and "I, Borg." I see so many people say that his behavior in First Contact and Picard is "out of character," which ignores the fact that someone changed by trauma will naturally display unusual behavior. Critics seem to think that Jean-Luc Picard should be above suffering from the prolonged effects of psychological and physical trauma. I'm not the biggest fan of the decision to give him a tragic backstory in Picard Season 2, but I'm all for realistic portrayals of mental health issues. These criticisms of Mariner's arc are incredibly frustrating. Sean, I love what you do, and normally you do a great job of navigating the nuances of controversial or complex subject matter, but this is a big miss. And, echoing a majority of the comments, the Sito connection is brilliant, and it brings together so many pieces of the puzzle and even ties the entire series to the TNG episode "Lower Decks" in an even more impressive way. It absolutely feels like this was the plan all along, and if there's any doubt about Mariner grinding her career to a halt for so long, take a look again at "Tapestry" from TNG. Mariner is essentially mirroring the alternate version of Lt. Picard whose career has essentially gone nowhere, but instead of a lack of ambition, it's due to harmful coping mechanisms.
Sean I think you missed something important about this episode. Theory Time: I think Lucarno is going on a rescue mission to save Sito. Who has been held prisoner all this time. There has never been confirmation of Sito's death. The Enterprise only found wreckage at the end of lower decks. No organic matter, no biomass, only ship wreckage fragments.
For those who do not know(and not sure why this was not mentioned) the reason why they created a new character called Paris was to they would not have to pay the original writer of the episode he first appeared in. Like with T Pau in TOS they wanted the character in Enterprise but they would have paid Sturgeon every time they used the character so they created T'Pol.
Dunno how you missed the almost Jabbas Palace in there or the Outrageous o'Connor at the bar in Mudds. Also, the ship and dock Cap and the guys got off, very clone wars that. It would have been SO good to have Balock having a drink at the bar too, a missed opportunity there, and... where was Mudd?
I like the show, but sometimes I disagree with some of the downs. I probably disagree the most with this episode but that’s okay because people can disagree whilst liking the same thing. Anyone that has been through any type of PTSD recognises her journey, and todays episode is no different. I actually think what Mariner mentions about the dominion war and what she sent through is possibly more important then Sito and I feel like that was slightly overlooked in this weeks ups and downs.
Swing and a miss Sean, HUGE swing and miss. I think everyone agrees, your opinion on Mariner is this seasons Trellium-D. It's so off point. Reminds me of all your issues with the short treks and missing that you're the joke they were making fun of.
Apparently Tawny Newsome is 40. And as one of the two Lower Decks characters to appear in live action and thus have the actor's age matter, if there were an age problem with the character (and I don't think there is), it would be Mariner being to young. I liked the Sito connection once I learned what it was-I didn't recognize the character from her name, alone. It connects Lower Decks to Lower Decks and seems perfectly believable to me. It can't be the only explanation from Mariner's behavior, as those who bring up PTSD suggest, but it fits as an early trauma that she could use as a touchstone. With the last episode of the season not yet out, one thing that does concern me is what appears to be going on with Locarno's plot. It appears that he set up a revolt of the lower decks of a bunch of different species' ships, possibly uniting the different lower deckers together. If that's what's going on, I will have to wait and see if that ends up being believable to me. That they would all revolt-maybe he chose them carefully to be mutiny-prone-and then that they would all unite, if that's what happened. And to what end? It might work for me, or it might not, once the details are revealed.
I was young when I watched TNG “Lower Decks” and felt really strong emotions when Seto died and I felt really ripped off when her name was mentioned in this episode by Marriner. It might be okay if Sito is still alive and comes back in the next episode.
I've always thought Mariner was a lot older than her friends (with the possible exception of Rutherford). Her former classmate at the academy was already a captain in season 1. Personally my down at her attitude towards her promotion would have been in the episode she got her promotion. Didn't she tell Ransome in the S3 finale that she was finally ready for some career development? And then it was "no, I don't want a promotion"
Seeing that probably academy flight trainer shuttle reminds me of the slight deep dive I did back into the aeroshuttle yesterday, because of the wings. Not that you can do much of a deep dive into an obscure, previously non-canon iirc, Starfleet captain's-yacht-like shuttle. Dang, I'd love for a Star Trek to actually use an aeroshuttle (or several lol)... and it pains me that they haven't used them anywhere, or at least not on screen (that I've seen anyway). Actually, I think that outside of Voyager we've barely seen Intrepid class starships. It would be great to see more of them, and Q forbid there be an Intrepid class that _actually_ uses an Aeroshuttle. I thought I saw an Intrepid class in the season finale of Lower Decks in the Nova Fleet with that paintjob they have, but I could be wrong.
It had to be Sito - it had to be someone who died, someone who has effed up and was given a second chance, someone who was Starfleet through and through. She did grey ops stuff "back in the day" ("Back in what day?") so her being a few years younger than Wesley is totally believable.
Billups helmet hair was PERFECT. As for the bounty hunter gear, I like to believe that was Billups' personal stuff, from his rebellious days. He left a dragon filled sci magic world to be a sexy biker virgin bounty hunter before joining Star Fleet. Just my own personal mental cannon. -grins- Also was it just me or did Nick's workshop look like Furlow's place from Farscape a little bit, maybe mixed with something you'd have seen when Anikan was a kid working on his pod racer?
I still think the Mariner thing is being done right, if perhaps a season too late. I wish that we had gotten a 'Locarno and Paris are the same person' in this episode.
Im fairly certain given the bounty hunters ship design looking so much like a dragon the ship is a hysperian ship and probably billups personal property as the prince...
Sean really seems to want there to be this magical "the trauma's all gone" moment for Mariner. All of her actions in this arc make sense for someone who is suffereing from ptsd/trauma/mental illness. Recovery and growth isn't linear and it doesn't just magically go away.
Stuff like this stakes a lot of time. Regressions and the road is not straight at all. I suffered a pretty profound stroke in my mid thirties on the language center of my brain. It has been years now, and that path is not linear and to still comes up. The other day I couldn't type in my phone number to get costumer service. I had to center myself, and struggle. At the end the person tried to give me an out asking if "Oh so it is a new phone number for you?" I replied, "No, I had a stroke, numbers are always harder than words." If my life was a TV show with a commenter just saying "ITS BEEN SEASONS WE KNOW YOU HAD A STROKE WHY IS THIS STILL HARD?!"
@@swfcocs1 Meh. I don't see a problem with it. Mariner as a character obviously has a lot of problems opening up about her past. She's bound to be holding on to all kinds of surprises.
I just hope that Sean and the rest of the TrekCulture crew can take the time to read the comments from SO many of their viewers about how trauma and PTSD really work for real people, and how so many of us have found the depiction of Mariner's experiences and reactions to them to be very deeply realistic.
I do hope they have a comment reader or moderator on staff as well. They don't need to acknowledge every single comment, but take information from that. Though haven't they now and again said something like "Some of you had mentioned."?
I doubt it. They strike me as an "upload and move on" type of outfit. Sean's made some outrageous comments lately based on obvious errors on his part, and ... crickets.
They won't. This has been pointed out before a few weeks back on how his huffing is actually offensive to people who have suffered from PTSD. So what does he do.... double down on it.
It definitely seems like they don't have a perspective on how PTSD affects someone. As someone with CPTSD, trauma isn't a one and done thing, it lingers in your mind and influence your thoughts and actions even if you don't realise it. She wants to be an ensign forever because she hasn't been able to move on from when she was an ensign and learned that Sito died. The part where she says "I don't want to order my friends to their deaths" screams of her mind trying to rationalise her trauma.
Trellium down of the season goes to Seán himself for misunderstanding Mariner's arc and development episode after episode, despite the comment sections on the Ups and Downs videos always doing a magnificent job explaining how her psychological journey is very true to life and accurately depicted :)
And the only way she could know them both AND have Sito graduate before her is if she was a first-year cadet during the TNG ep The First Duty in which both characters were introduced.
I was thinking the same. The fact that she knows Nick as the cliffhanger of the 2 parter shows that there’s more to come here. And it shows that all the disappearing ships are essentially related to Mariner and her issues all season. It’s less obvious than it could have been, but I’m here for it, assuming the finale pays off.
@@jimmyryan5880 I've noticed that too, but I can't find much fault with it. They have to shoot the Ups & Downs very soon after the episode is released in order to get it into editing so that it can be released same/next day for viewers. I'd be surprised if they do anything more than watch the episode once to absorb the plot, then watch it again pausing every 10 seconds to jot down easter eggs. Then they shoot. That's not a lot of time to let things peculate, or to notice finely crafted details. It's a testament to how well Shawn and the crew know Star Trek that they see as much as they see immediately on first viewing. It bothers me a bit more that Shawn will keep beating a dead horse week after week (like the bit about Mariner's older age or severe long term PTSD not having been hinted at, when they have been hinted at every few episodes since the first season) even as the comment's section points out to him that he's completely wrong and just doesn't understand what's happening... but as others have pointed out, he probably doesn't read the comment's section. You can't read the comment's section as a content creator and stay sane. But geez. I pointed out in the comments for the Season 1 Episode 5 (and 9) Ups & Downs how they were setting up a PTSD healing arc for Mariner. And I'm pretty sure I (and others) pointed out in Episode 1 Season 1 comments that Mariner had to be at a very minimum 10 years older than the other 3, or her claim to have served on 5 ships didn't make sense. I'm not sure how Shawn and the rest of the Trekculture crew missed all of that. Maybe a full series rewatch is in order for all of them:). None of this came out of nowhere.
Nog was 21 when he became an ensign. Kim was 22 at the start of Voyager. Wesley was 19 when he became an ensign. The actress who played Sito was 22 when they made the episode. And Mariner said Sito graduated before her. Sito was killed in 2370. Lower Decks season 1 started in 2380. So Mariner was probably between 20 - 22 in 2370 and between 30 - 32 when Lower Decks started. She's not that old.
and considering we know she was on DS9 at the same time as worf, is friends with Riker, and graduated the same year as someone who has already become a captain, it's not even surprising. Plus, all that rank and ship bouncing she has done isn't something you just do in 2 years or so
@@danriverso1053 Not necessarily. Starfleet Academy is more like a University in that anyone can apply at any time. Boimler, for example, could be the same age as Mariner, but he just enlisted at a later time. She is definitely more experienced than the rest of the main cast, but that does not necessitate an older age.
love the show and i largely agree with most of the observations made, however, i look at Mariner's character regression in much the same way i see a person struggling with addiction. there will be relapses.
You waste 5 minutes to talk about your dislike that Mariner (who we know is older than her peers, seeing as she served on DS9 alongside Worf and went to the academy with a friend who has already been promoted to captain) knew Sito and claim that that's the reason she has been acting the way she has, and then don't even mention the ACTUAL reason she is the way she is? She doesn't act out because of Sito, she acts out because she has PTSD from the dominion war and hates how Starfleet has become more militaristic over the years. Sito is not important because she died, but because she was killed by Cardassians on some sabotage mission. 5 minutes for that rant but no mention of her PTSD? that's a DOWN from me.
It's like they didn't even listen to Mariner's monologue. The fact that she is at a point where she can self-critically examine her past trauma and talk to a stranger about it is already showing huge character growth. Criticism like Sean's is exactly why people struggling with mental injuries are so afraid to really be vulnerable and talk about them.
honestly the whole framing in Trekculture's take feels a LOT of internalized ablism- we can be our harshist critics. It's hard to be reminded how nonlinear healing from PTSD is. For me and friends' who have done decades of work processing trauma, you start to feel worse as you start to heal. Starfleet is full of ineffective therapists back to TOS. It's makes sense that she could find that with a klingon.@@QuintusAntonious
Agreed, huge down. He is so completely caught up in thinking and ranting about how Mariner should just magically be better that he's ignoring all the real story about PTSD and trauma. It's absolutely awful, and it's souring me on the whole channel.
Sean, it has to be Sito because if their tracking Locarto, Freeman won't want to trigger Beckett. Hence the side mission. This shows Freeman is an even better mom then the conference room scene demonstrated.
But why, exactly, does it have to be Sito? It's that type of justification that people were saying that Seven of Nine was going to appear in the first season of Prodigy, simply because the kids had developed a mentorship with Hologram Janeway and, later, Admiral Janeway. If we want to invoke logic into the scene, I would have to give a down to the fact that Freeman didn't relieve Mariner of active duty when it was apparent she was trying to "get herself killed." Of course, had she done so, there would have been no story; however if Mariner's issues are so extreme that the captain is concerned and even the idea of sending her to the ship's counsellor is deemed insufficient, the worst place for Mariner is on active duty. I have had similar struggles in the past, though nowhere to such an extreme, but I know from personal experience that you're not completely rational in that frame of mind, and sometimes you need something like being relieved of duty to accept that you've messed up and take the steps necessary to heal.
sorry, have to disagree with Sean, this is my favourite episode of the series, the sito/locarno stuff may well be fan service but it's done so well that it doesn't diminish the episode at all. also, the klingon ma'ah is with mariner, I'm surprised they didn't twig on, thought it was obvious from the moment he showed up.
Have to disagree about Beckett. The trauma of that lost and the grief, AND then maybe making new connections with people just to have them slaughtered in the Dominion War… That will surely short circuit her moving past Ensign
Sean always seems to think maturity is linear--once you stop acting a certain way once you never act that way again. It's not like that at all. Mariner has deeply habituated coping behavior stemming from extreme trauma. She's not going to just snap out of it and be "normal" because she met some friends, learned some lessons, and got a promotion. Healing takes time and "growth" takes intentional long term sustained effort. People backslide, it's normal and Lower Decks in its humorous over the top way is actually portraying it pretty well.
Is it possible to give a comment a Dilithium Up? Aw, who cares, I'm doing it anyway. From episode ONE it was evident that Beckett Mariner is a very troubled young woman in a way that is hard to immediately pin down to specific reasons, even for herself. When the Klingon points out that she's at war with herself, I think that's the first time she actually tries to look back to where it all started. Also, point of fact, Sito and Mariner don't have to be the same age for them to have been friends at the Academy. Also also, her commanding attitude when she starts trying to get everyone together honestly makes me think that her old dream of making Captain isn't as far fetched as it might have been.
100%. Trauma makes growth difficult especially if there is no catharsis. Here it seems Mariner may have finally gotten that catharsis. Her rebellion, her antics, her apparent growth and then slipping back into old habits - it is all something that major trauma can create in people. I appreciate that we finally see is at the root of Mariner's trauma - the thing that hurt her and stifled her growth. The real grief she still deals with.
@@Anduril74871 good point about age, Sito could have been in her senior year of the academy when Mariner was a freshmen. Like Picard said to Wesley about having a stigma hanging over him while he is at the academy the same would have been true of Sito. I would imagine the Academy making sure the three remaining members of a Nova Squad lived in separate dorms and never had any of the same classes so Sito would have been very much alone by her senior year leading into a friendship / mentorship like relationship with Mariner who saw Sito as someone who made a mistake but refused to give up gets assigned to the flagship and then gets killed on black ops mission she never thought she would be on. Mariner not only lost a friend but a mentor which in turn caused her to spiral into a self destructive way of life.
I thought that they were actually making the Dominion War more of the reason for Mariner not wanting command, because she didn't want to send her crew to the horrors of war. The trauma of that, combined with the Sito Jaxa trauma, sealed her desire to avoid command.
I think this actually was planned from day one. Mariner has always been hinted to be about the same age as Wesley Crusher. She was on DS9 concurrent with the events of the show and therefore the Dominion War. They set up her fear of losing friends and attachment issues early. We've seen and been told that she has been promoted and demoted a number of times. It makes sense that during the war, when faced with potentially ordering her friends to their deaths, she fell into this defensive habit of getting herself demoted before she's forced to make a tough call. But now that demotion is essentially off the table, she is fully spinning out and taking on extra risks to avoid making those kinds of choices. If she takes all of the risks, all of the time she won't have to lose any more friends. Sito is important because she's clearly the first close friend to have died in the line of duty. But Mariner being around for the war means she was far from the last. That she was involved with the Dominion War has been hinted at for a long time as the thing that sets her apart from her younger friends who were not.
Yes. I was thinking this (well, some of it) while Sean was saying why he didn't like it. Like you said, if Mariner takes on all the risks, then her friends (whom she loves deeply and wouldn't hesitate to give her life for) stay safe. The more we learn about Mariner, the more absolutely tragic her character becomes. She wanted to be in Star Fleet more than anything; to explore strange, new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations. In short, young Mariner was the embodiment of the entire ideal encapsulated by Star Trek (in the meta sense). Then, the façade began to crumble. First, it was Nick Locarno and his wrecklesness. The Sito, who has done her damnedest to earn back the respect of Star Fleet (as personified by Picard), succeeds, but only to be killed immediately after. Then, the events of DS9 (war after war). Undoubtedly, Mariner saw other friends ordered to their deaths. Mariner may have had to order some enlisted personnel and ensigns to their demise during the war, but she can't bring herself to talk about it, so her friends don't know. Mariner has likely suffered such an amount of trauma that she has no business being anything other than reduced to a "human" in name only. Yet, she carries on. Maybe she has a drive to protect her younger compatriots to spare them from a fate that she witnessed (and pethaps even ordered) countless times. Her drive to protect her friends is stronger than the clear PTSD she has. She might know that she is walking through the deepest reaches of Hell, but she'll be damned if she lets her friends suffer what she did.
Well the fact that they probably decided to make paris a different character because they didn't want to pay royalties to the writers who created Locarno... 30 years on now we use the character. Hopefully Locarno shows up every 4th episode from here on out.
And no, it's not just a respectful difference of opinion. It's wrong on both counts. That's not how ptsd works, Mariner isn't going to have one revelation with her mom and be all better, and that's not how story-telling works, Sito being from the literal series title episode is not just a 'name drop'.
Looking back at Lower Decks and knowing where the initial inspiration for the show came from the Sito twist makes perfect sense that her death was the trigger for Mariner's reckless path so definitely don't agree with that down.
I think her DS9 scene and knowledge of the TNG and DS9 crew were the clues. Also her clear advanced knowledge and how capable she is and her knowledge of Klingon society (that she would have learned in the dominion war) all place her at the point in time that her knowing Sito Jaxa is certainly plausible. Having the reason she acts the way she does because she has PTSD and survivor's guilt is 100% plausible. Sorry Sean, I gotta down your down.
Mariner’s age has always been evident, from all the tidbits and places she was stationed, her knowledge, and who she knows. She has a classic Peter Pan Syndrome, and know we know why. It’s actually deep.
The thing that bothers me about the downs is it's judging the show for not being something else. The writers have decided to take a particular approach to Mariner's character this season, ok TrekCulture may not agree with that approach, but that's what happening. To continually give downs doesn't make any sense - sure downvote if it seems like they're not executing on that approach properly, but they are! It's just not logical to downvote every episode because you don't like the season arc. The approach they're taking is entirely coherent.
Lots of people have been very eloquently expressing where I think you got the Sito stuff way wrong... but a small thing, Mariner didn't "cause" the scientist in the cold open to lose his eyes through her reckless action. She didn't ignore a safer plan for her reckless one, she just very recklessly snapped into action. Her plan pretty much worked to boot. Yeah a Moopsy 2 got into the base on her back, but at the end of the day that scientist immediately thought they would all die when the shield went down, they didn't even have time to think of a safer plan, and the reality is if she didn't act lots more people would have gotten hurt / died. The point of the scene wasn't to say she was being dangerously reckless and getting people hurt. She was being dangerously reckless in her efforts to find a solution. Feels like you were exaggerating to point. Just wanted to get that off my chest.
Really the scientist should have checked to make sure that all the animals were contained and Mariner was in no ways contaminated before he took off his helmet.
I'm very disappointed in how the issue of Ensign Sito being "name dropped" was took precedence over Mariner's personal suffering. She obviously is suffering from so form of mental illness most likely some form of depression and PTSD. Sito was her role model and close friend the died on a secret mission. Sean, why couldn't you see how devasting losing a close friend can be? Also, why didn't you speak about Mariner's response to the Klingon's words about the honor and glory of serving on DS9 during the Dominion War? She told him there was no glory, but it was just a massacre. She is troubled from all she has seen and endured. She is still recovering in silence. She just needs help dealing with her trauma. This episode hit close to home because my wife has severe PTSD and has tried to commit ***cide six times. People do irrational things when they're suffering. Next time, don't knit pick the plot to the point to where you miss out on what message is trying to be conveyed.
It’s clear to me Sito was the first of many friends who died. Mariner graduated the academy and got thrown into the teeth of a galactic war. A bucket of trauma makes all the sense in the world.
@@michellegiacalone1079 THIS! To me what the obvious difference between those 2 characters is gender. I am starting to notice Sean has more empathy and enthusiasm, or at least has it more readily with male presenting presenting characters than female presenting? I wonder if this is an unconscious bias he might have.
It may have been a while since you guys have seen “extreme risk”. I watched this episode and saw a parallel to how b’elanna was acting to how mariner is currently acting. They were both acting out of character because of past unresolved trauma.
The First Duty occured 13 years before this episode. For Sito to graduate before Mariner, she'd have to be at least two years older than her. If Sito was at most 20, then Mariner would be at most 18 during the episode. This puts Mariner at 31 at most. This lines up with Boimler who has been confirmed to be at most 27.
That means the timeline is right for Mariner being the girl in that first season TNG episode. But I feel like if she grew up on the _D_ she wouldn't have talked about Sito getting a spot on it the way she did.
Giving a down for Ensign Sito and Mariner's tie in to the original Lower Decks episode is crazy to me. Especially since Nick got the latinum up. The hypocrisy...
I bet that mentioning Sito here will play some importance in the next episode too; and wasn't just thrown in like Sean seems to think it was. A mistake he has made in critiques opf episodes of Lower Decks several times before.
@@jasontoddman7265 Same. With Sito apparently MIA or KIA ... Would be an interesting hook if Nick (and/or other Squad Members, including the "forgotten" one) get Mariner to take part in their plans to maybe "Rescue(?) Sito or maybe "avenge" her. Break her out of a Fortress/Strong Hold or something... Thinking some kind of "DS9: Blood Oath" (2x19) type Mission.
So I have to disagree that Sito feels like it’s just a name drop. I didn’t think so. The way Mariner delivers the tale, you can feel that deep painful sadness and missing her. I actually shed a tear at the telling of it. I honestly thought this was worthy of a platinum up
Come on, Sean. The road through healing is not linear and not without the traps that make us circle back, re-wound ourselves, and suffer. I have been where Mariner is, split between the necessary experience of moving forward in life and _wanting not to._ I'm kind of in it right now, if I'm honest. The frustration you show Mariner mirrors the frustration my friends once showed me when I wasn't healing the way _they_ expected me to -- and made the wound much, much worse.
I disagree. We already know that Mariner was demoted several times, and have served befoe the Dominion War. I think the connection with Sito was perfect.
I wondered if Mariners behaviour was a slight throwback to the DS9 episode with Nog living in the holosuite. She even refers to the dominion war in her confession with the Klingon. If intentional by the writers it’s a nice way to connect the events of Lower Decks (the TNG episode) and the dominion war arc in DS9 and acknowledge how these types of conflicts can cause long term effects for the people and societies involved.
You know it’s odd. You had mentioned how sad you were that Ma’ah had apparently met his demise in the season premiere, and then proceeded to not mention him once by name when he made his return.
I don't know why, but I _love_ Ma'ah, and I was thrilled to see he survived. A little disappointed that all he gets is a couple passing references to "the klingon".
Agreed. It's like at the end of "New Eden" on Discovery, while Pike is recovering and asks Burnham not to make him laugh, the slight laugh he gives to Burnham's joke could have been easily overdone. Any criticisms of the content of the episode aside, the performance was an up.
You've completely missed the mark on ensign Sito tbh, it's clear that she was name dropped because Mariner knows those characters personally as a part of her backstory where she used to be stationed on the Enterprise. She's at the middle of this story and is getting Downed for it Not only that, with Riker being Freeman's mentor from season 1, Mariner being around that time was definitely planned from the start
First episode of Ups & Downs I didn't like. The entire point of Mariner acting the way she does is that its out of character, reckless, and dangerous. At this point she seems to be, at least passively, suicidal. Character development doesn't strictly mean positive growth, and making it a down this week feels like you're reducing all characters to caricatures who aren't allowed to regress or have anything but a perfect arc from bad to good.
@@OhNoTheFaceShe didn’t hurt anyone. The behavior was indicative of the regression which was caused by a trauma. The rest was a consequence without intent.
@@matthewshalk9665 Exactly. He was alive to be attacked because she got the force field back up. Did she do things well? Uh, no, definitely not, but it's a little harsh to blame that all on her, especially given that the scene was driven at least partly by Rule of Funny.
![[UA] Eternal Fire проти NAVI | EPL Season 20 Malta](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/chvlsDygrZM/mqdefault.jpg)
I find the Mariner cycle to be quite important actually. She is behaving the way someone who is suffering from mental illness often does. Pulling out, feeling safe, then nosediving even worse than before. She attributes it to a specific trauma but the metaphor is something a lot of us can relate to. It may seem "out of character" and that is why so many people have a hard time relating to or feeling sympathy for those who struggle with mental illness. The question "why are you acting this way you were doing so well..." is something that just hurts sometimes. Growth is not linear if someone is suffering from a mental illness, in this case they are using acute trauma as a metaphor for things like bipolar II, or even substance use disorder. IMO
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I fully agree
The difference between people who struggle and sometimes fail and don't just "get better" and characters who have an arc.
Audiences expect charcaters to have growth and it goes in one direction because the messy reality is less satisfying.
@@101Mant yes but I like the subversion of that expectation. Lower Decks subverts everything else so why not!
I agree. I can totally see why Mariner can't handle the promotion. She was traumatized, and we know that Star Fleet absolutely SUCKS at mental health for its officers.
SITO is NOT a DOWN. SHE IS NOT A DOWN!!!! She's not a name drop. It add's so much to both the stories.. and connects the lower decks episode. Let this therapy session matter. Grrrr
If they don't do anything else with that information going forward, then it's a fanservice namedrop. If they do manage to actually work it into the story for the next episode or two, then it it's just poorly planned writing due to a lack of sufficient setup or foreshadowing this season. Sito could've easily been mentioned during any of the other 'low-morale Mariner' moments this season, but it instead feels like it's come out of nowhere in the very same episode that Locarno is also brought back into the modern Star Trek era - either of which, is huge unto themselves - but both in same episode without any 'apparent' foreshadowing this season... let's just say it makes me nervous that the writer may try to bite off more than they can chew in trying to cram all this into 2 (maybe 3?) episodes.
TBF though, Sean has been saying all along that he's willing to rescind any downs from his anti 'Mariner Regression' stance if it's simply a case of "Yes, the writers will actually address this, they just haven't yet"
he's right, tho... if Mariner knew Sito, and both Mariner AND Sito knew Locarno, with Locarno being in his mid 40's, then Mariner is also around that age.... and so is Boimler, and Tendi and Rutherford aren't much far behind.
granted, Mariner could have been a freshman when the others were seniors nearly graduates... but the difference would be negligible especially knowing Locarno, Wesley, Riker, Seven, and everyone else mentioned AND their time references.... so if Nick is 40+, Mariner is a late 30, pushing 40.
They up every dumb namedrop and every shallow fanservice-y reference but end up downing one of the few that was actually relevant to the story.
mariner was always older than the other three cause she served on several ships and kept getting demoted because of what happened to Sito. The other three are at the right age to be Ensigns Mariner should prly be a commander by now. @@bcn1gh7h4wk
@@bcn1gh7h4wk However, it is possible that Mariner (both of her parents being in Star Fleet) knew Locarno, Wesley, and Sito while she was still in High School. Plus, Locarno was kicked out of the Academy, whereas Sito was sent back a year, which could easily mean that Mariner knew Sito when Sito was a Senior and Mariner was a Freshman. And who knows how long Star Fleet Academy actually is. Four years? I'd actually suspect that it was somewhat longer, say maybe six years.
Sorry but Mariner's connection to Sito Jaxa was so unexpected and worked for me. And of course Mariner knowing Locarno is why Captain Freeman didn't want her on that mission.
The "bounty hunter ship" is clearly Prince Billups' personal yacht with some edgy paint do. And the suite was probably his space jousting armor.
I mean, that outfit is exactly what you'd expect someone in a High Fantasy setting to wear when going through their "angsty" phase.
the suit looks too scifi for the renfair types. But that can just be done with a replicator
That was my thought!
Cosplaying is literally in his blood.
Well I'm making that my head canon now, lol, thanks
I don't think Sito is just a name drop.
1) it gives a believable origin for Mariner's issues with having authority using a character they've already developed onscreen rather than it just being "random name" that means nothing to us
2) Mariner recognises Nick Locano and he knows her. Mariner mentioning Sito helps tie that in as it places them in the academy together in the same circles. I'll bet you that Sito comes up in the finale as part of why Locano is driving the mutinies. Mariner doesn’t want to be a general sending people to their deaths, Locano wants to overthrow the generals.
agreed it's the core trauma of the entire show and it shows up throughout. People with PTSD don't fit neatly within Sean's view of healing
Plus it's a clever reference to the show's namesake, the episode Lower Decks. We follow the Lower Decker who stayed a Lower Decker because of Lower Decks
@JordanSagitarria I suspect that's a bit harsh on Sean. I'd be interested to here some clarification from Sean but my suspicion is that he was looking for a more traditional character development of "has problem, gets better, stays better". Star Trek has a habit, both recently and historically, of episodes forgetting what has come before due to all the episodes/shows having different writers so I'd understand assuming it was that rather than it being a representation of a complex healing process with two steps forwards and one step back, progression and regression, something triggering something you thought you were over.
@@SkydreamPony good shout! Hadn't thought of that
@@davidnickson7468 it’s the central wound of the entire series.
This episode of Lower Decks was one of the best, but this episode of Ups & Downs missed HARD. As much as TrekCulture researches Trek lore, it's jarring that they didn't see the Sito connection coming. The showrunners straight up said the TNG episode "Lower Decks" inspired this show, so it's actually surprising to me that there haven't been *more* callbacks to it. I won't call them "idiots" and say they should've seen it coming from a long way a way, but the "breadcrumbs" were always there - they're just easily dismissed without context. It feels obvious that no one on the staff involved with Ups & Downs knows anyone struggling with PTSD. It IS painful to watch someone who is recovering randomly revert back to their old ways suddenly and unexpectedly, but it's a thing that happens. How Mariner is being portrayed is textbook, and deserves way more respect than Sean & crew is giving it/her.
I was hoping to see Sean make corrections to his previous take in this one but from the comments, I see he’s decided to double down on that instead.
That’s a damn shame because he had all the compassion in the word for M’Benga, a guy who may or may not have killed a man in cold blood due to his PTSD when the person responsible would not get out his face about it, so I thought he’d have more compassion here.
Black women never get a break, IRL or in fiction 😔
Unsubbing until this channel can learn to do better on this.
@KariIzumi1 "Unsubbing until this channel can learn to do better on this"
I banned the channel from my algorithm completely. Kind of a shame since I was looking forward to some of the retro ups & downs, but that's how it goes.
I still feel sorry for poor Ensign Sito. She didn't deserve that.
The Sito story was one of the stories that made a huuuge impression on me.
Do we have to expect that the last episode will be about Sito?
What happened to her? What episode was it?
@@SImrobert2001 _TNG_ "Lower Decks" 🙃
@@nackteHintern Possibly. What's worse is that Sito's end came entirely off-screen. She was only reported K.I.A. And it's only been a little over 10 years in the show's timeline. She could've been alive all this time, hiding and staying ahead of anyone pursuing her. There's no way to truly know without a body.
That kind of feeling, of never truly KNOWING if a loved one is actually gone...is absolute agony. Ask any family of those who are still M.I.A.
It's a torturous kind of hope. And nothing can ever make it go away, except knowing. And they'll never know.
Honestly I feel dropping Sito in this was perfect, lower decks probably would not have existed withought its name sake and in a way I feel like this brings many stories, old and new full circle.
I’m so glad you mentioned this! They were already inextricably tied together, so it didn’t feel like a name drop for me either.
Remember, Ramsey knew Mariner at the Academy, and she's a Captain, who thought Mariner would be a Captain by now. In TOS Kirk was the youngest captain in the history of the fleet at 35, so even if Ramsay is younger than that, she would'nt be much younger. Probably stil early 30's. So if Epsode Lower Decks takes place in 2369, and show Lower Decks takes place in 2380, assuming she was 21 or 22 when she graduated Starfleet Academy, that would make Mariner also in her early 30's. So this epsidoe didnt mess up her timeline at all. Plus throwing Locarno and Sito Jaxa in is paying Homage to the entire series namesake, the epsiode "Lower Decks"!
I personally LOVE the portrayal of Mariners undiagnosed depression, especially the constant ‘ok one moment, unstable the next…’ nature of the condition…
I’ve had friends do this; they been ok one moment and then ‘go off the rails’ the next and brush off attempts to help and even lash out at me for little/no reason…
What I cannot fathom is WHY every one of her former COs kept demoting/punishing her rather than looking at MH as a probable cause… they must have had records of her war service!? Does starfleet not include a MH check as part of their annual physicals!?
I'd never think we'd get an actual *controversial* Ups & Downs episode. Such Drama!
I was disappointed at a lack of Boimler screams but "teach me to dance Beverly Crusher" made up for it.
I think it's an acceptable thing for Mariner to not be over the death of Sito Jaxa, especially if it happened early on in Mariner's Academy years. The talk therapy that Migleemo does is not the fixer for everyone, and Mariner would have gone from the academy and grieving the loss of her friend directly into the Dominion War. It also shows why she is so defensive and acts out every time she gets promoted: she doesn't want to be a Picard ordering someone like her to their death. It's why she never joined in with "The Redshirts" to rank up, and I would guess a lot of mixed feelings were brought up when she saw the Dominion War memorial on Ferenginar. C-PTSD works differently on different people, and I do find it believable that the Klingon from Wej Duj was the better person to talk Mariner through her trauma than her friends. Except maybe T'Lyn, She's Vulcan as a mfer, or so I've heard.
Sean, people have been having deep conversations regarding this for at least a year and a half. No way you are just catching on to this.
It drives me up the wall that many of those conversations have taken place on the comment sections of his videos! Does it really mean anything when he says something about telling him anything in the comments? Does he actually not read them at all?
@@DarkSapiens The fandom anticipated this like 2 years ago. I guess I can't assume content creators are as deeply intune with those trends and conversations that the audience is having.
@@DarkSapiens Probably not tbh - that's just your standard call to action to drive engagement
I'm having a hard time understanding why Sito is a down... but Locarno is a Latinum up? If Mariner knew one of them, then it's expected that she'd know both. To me this is great backstory.
LD makes frequent use of character cameos - so that's not an issue - Locarno being brought back as a (potential?) adversary fits much more with the vibe of LD and how it handles potential cameos. The insertion of Sito into Mariner's past like this, in the way it's been done so far (out of nowhere, it feels) - in the context of mariner's continued personal struggles this season and also the seriousness of the circumstances we last knew of Sito all those years ago - just has the potential fall very flat, which would diminish both Beckett's self-admittance of her problem and also undo a lot of the emotional gut-punch of TNG's "Lower Decks" itself.
I can't believe you did not mention Rutherford discovering the trouser pockets. That was HILARIOUS!
It’s blatantly obvious that the connection to Sito, and thus TNG’s “Lower Decks”, has been there from the very beginning. That, and all of Mariner’s actions over the past four years actually make a hell of a lot of sense in hindsight, including wanting to sacrifice herself to protect others because she’s sick and tired of losing those she cares about.
Also, it’s very evocative of “Extreme Risk” from VOY, albeit Mariner’s been perpetually grieving for all this time while hiding it under a shell of rebellion. Losing her role model on top of Dominion War trauma ruined her for life. And as has been stated countless times, one conversation does not magically fix everything. Even the moment she has with Ma’ah (whom you suddenly forgot was a thing) is able to get her to calm down and, while not “magically fixed”, able to function as a proper Starfleet officer.
it's weird. like a serious mental block against facing trauma and processing it
We get it, Sean. You don't have to rant about Sito and Mariner over and over again. Nitpicking is okay. But not when it gets annoying.
Given that we already knew that a classmate is now a captain, we already knew she was too old to be an average ensign. As she was fond of saying in S1, she's been around.
It's important to point out that she was older than her klingon friend.
And she called Locarno "Nick". I'm assuming that she was Red Squadron, but wasn't gung ho enough (back then) to do the Starburst (?) maneuver.
What I didn't like was that now people can breach the hull of a Klingon warship with their bare hands.
And in retrospect, the Star Wars are obvious. In retrospect.
I’m glad people in the comments get this show a lot more than the writers of Trek Culture.
So, If Thomas Riker survived his time in a Cardassian Prison, perhaps Ensign Sito has as well?
IIRC, Sito was shot dead while trying to 'escape' the Cardassian double agent.
@HojoNorem they only found wreckage
The thing with Mariner is denial and fear are something you just beat especially if it's been preying on you that long. She's always acted as a sort of Peter Pan character trying to live her own Starfleet dream, apparently to keep the fears expressed in this episode at bay. There's an entire fake Mariner built around her like psychological armour. In light of that the addition to her backstory makes some sense. Also Sito Jaxa being an inspiration adds to Sito's tragic redemption arc.
Yes it dates Mariner but it's long been established that she's had a very substantial career before joining the Cerritos, one she never really talks about. If you consider Mariner is probably a year younger than Wesley Crusher (he was 20 in 2368) that still puts her at 32-ish in 2381. In Season 4 Sito's death is 11 years past, that means Mariner has basically had a career as long (and apparently eventful) as Worf's TV one up to the end of DS9.
This episode up until the conversation with Ma'ah is Mariner spiraling into breakdown, desperate not to become someone who could kill order Sito to her death. We don't really understand the meaning behind the thousand yard stare Mariner gives on being promoted in Twovix.
Also, anyone notice the Motion Picture music cue used for the Bounty Hunter?
Disagree with the down for Sito. This is the justification for Mariner's agnst you asked for and you're downing it. If you don't remember how emotional Sito's last epsiode was go back and watch it. No wonder Mariner had trauma, not wanting to out rank her BFF. Also, she DID recognize Nick at the end.
Ah yes a Latnium UP for NL and a down for Sito. Make it make sense.
He did say it was specifically that it was SITO in particular that he was downing. Not the idea that Mariner had this reason.
That said I also disagree, I think that it was a character on the Enterprise, such an emblem of Starfleet would add to the connection between her trauma and Starfleet itself.
I'm just happy to see my favorite lower-decker-turned-captain Klingon back and alive.
Oh, did no one else notice that Mariner didn't know that T'Lyn was also at the Pakleds battle from a couple seasons ago?
yeah and Sean didn't notice, thought it was obvious
Beckett looking up to a slightly older Sito being a young and rising Fleet Officer would make sense. If she in fact did grow up on the Enterprise
easily the best Mariner episode so far.
SOMEONE actually did their homework!
My latinum up goes to everyone in the comments calling bullshit on the down to Sito Jaxa.
I think it has to be Sito as the "name drop" because it gives a reason for Locarno to be the big bad of the season. I wonder if he is looking for pay back against Starfleet against him and Sito.
He was looking for ex Starfleet as he thinks he can turn them to his side. L
if this were done as live action, the script, apart from a few outlying wisecracks, would be as Trek as Trek has been since the 1990s. The morality play, not just the action, plays out more strongly in this episode, and the entire series than it does, in any other new Trek.
Sorry man, but a chat in a single episode would not, and should NOT resolve a trauma. That is not a reversion, is just sitcom BS. Of course you can rationalize your behavior in a conversation, but it wont change said behavior, it doesn't work like that. So, sorry, but you are being pig headed. Mariner has talked through this more than once, but has not done the work, till now (and just beginning at that). Thats good character writting, suddenly her recklessness has a real reason, that explains how she can love starfleet, and act against it at the same time.
Seems like Sean is doubling down on his hate of Mariner more out of spite than anything else at this point. Spite for the character and probably spite for the comments that have tried to explain to him time and again why this explanation of her self-sabotage makes perfect sense. That said, I agree there should've been more bread crumbs leading to Sito.
Love the tie-in back to the original Lower Decks episode.
It warms my heart to see the comment section completely disagree with Sean.
Sean might get to this (I'm only at 12:00), but they had the Klingon have pinkish-lavender blood like in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (which was done to preserve the film's PG rating as so much red blood might have changed that). Klingon blood was red in ST:TNG and DS9.
Who says Klingons have only one blood color? Maybe it varies with diet.
Okay so… I understand the breadcrumbs thing. People realizing how long ago Mariner went to the academy or her knowing “the other one” could all have been hints building to this. I agree on that part.
But it is quite obviously one of two things. Either Locarno will also have trouble dealing with Sito’s death and have done all he has done because of that. In that scenario Mariner will have to talk to him and help him find a place for these feelings that’s not destructive. Naturally realizing Mariner is on the planet Locarno beamed her out because he thinks she could be an ally on his mission.
The other scenario is that Locarno is trying to find Sito, because she’s still alive. But this imho would be the weaker of the options. Both scenario’s can be combined tho. Sito becoming the reason for Locarno to stop his plan to find allies against the Federation.
But it’s a stroke of genius to weave Lower Decks into those two episodes of TNG, linking the series to the actual episode it’s based on. I like it, but I also had to kinda get into the idea. I think the next episode will make the link worth it :b
Definitely a lot of Star Wars influence in this episode. The shield around New Axton reminded me of how Star Wars visually implements planet shields, the hats worn by the officers controlling entry to New Axton, there are Star Wars-eque music cues layered in when the shuttle arrives from the moon at New Axton and also when they have the wide arial shot of the communications bunker. Also the ship design of the shuttle in New Axton is way more Star Wars than Star Trek. I found the whole New Axton story to be a bit of what would it be like if Starfleet walked into the Star Wars universe.
"And...I have thoughts." Sean, at this point I don't even think you like Star Trek.
I join the chorus on the "agreeing to disagree" about Mariner.
At first I was with Seán when the matter apeeared resolved and came back to haunt her on that Ferenginar episode... But in this one, I felt like it was "another step" of her grief (first she was trying to get demoted/expelled from Starfleet, now she is activelly trying to kill herself).
And in this process, she is endangering everyone around her, mostly because she is not hinking straight. FOR ME this adds a layer of urgency on her resolving this issue.
But anyway, excelent video as always, love having your company to reflect on each episode
There were even bits of the score this week that sounded like a Star Wars reference to me. Glad it wasn't just me.
Oh another cetacian observation when Mariner was fighting the klingon she used the famous double handed fist smash that has been in almost every live action fight scene.
Two spots that I thought deserved an Up:
1) The uniform pockets bit by Rutherford.
2) When Mariner says "what in the minimalist hell is..." when she awakes after being beamed aboard the weird ship.
Two spots that I thought deserved a Down:
1) When Mariner, Boimler, Tendi, and T'Lyn take shelter in the tree, the fact that nobody stands guard on a dangerous world.
2) Jennifer. If Jennifer and Mariner are dating, wouldn't she be involved in what Mariner is going through??
Follow up thought.
I think it would be interesting to see how Jen and Mariner interact now that Mariner has been promoted.
I love that, yet again, they had Mariner get stabbed in the right shoulder (this time by the rainstorm). That's gotta ache by now.
Honestly, I was fine with the Sito thing. It throws the timeline a bit off, but it's not the first reference we've had to Mariner being older than she seems, and they clearly wanted a way to tie the series to its spiritual predecessor.
My biggest issue with this episode is actually something you gave an Up.
I was genuinely bummed out by the reveal that Nick Locarno and Tom Paris are canonically different people. I always subscribed to the fan theory that they were the same person.
The way I see Mariner being in the academy with Sito is she entered the academy very young, it’s already implied she was a child prodigy (wrong show I know) but she may well have been accepted at an early age due to her abilities not to mention she was born on a starship and had been basically in starfleet since she could walk. Yes Wesley didn’t go at an early age but there was a different dynamic and given that his father died serving in starfleet I would imagine his mother wasn’t really pushing him in to it and it becomes clear he really wasn’t either. So I don’t mind the the tie in or name drop but I agree it’s something that could have been introduced in an earlier episode to give more meaning to the scene.
Did we not notice that the knife rain got Mariner in her knife attracting shoulder?
I've heard people here mention Wesley Crusher popping in. As much ptsd as Beckett is suffering due to the Cardassian War, I'd imagine it all started with Joshua Albert. If Wesley snagged the last spot on Nova Squadron beating Beckett out for it, then survivor's guilt could be even worse and Locarno is not going to help that. I've liked this season as it's shown the Lower Deckers growing, especially with the episode about their having separate duties and making their own ways. This looks to be a big finish for our group and frankly, I'm expecting Mariner to spend the between season time recovering. The inclusion of the an OGLDer makes this an epic story.
Great review, but I personally think the Sito inclusion was a bit of brilliance. 🖖
Think I'm at the point that I just need to not watch Trek Culture covering Lower Decks anymore because as much as they (Sean & the TC writers) don't understand why Mariner's arc is this way or understand the comments, I'm the same way with their negative perception of it because her path very much tracks with my mental illness & trauma that I understand entirely where the Lower Decks writers are coming from with her character.
Sorry completely disagree with your assessment about Mariner - to me it makes perfect sense. If a close friend of mine had died in such a way, I know what I would be like. And it wasn't just that - you missed the whole horror of the Dominion War which surely factors in here too.
It’s always refreshing when you’re outraged about something and head to the comments to make hay and see that every single post is making the same point you wanted to make. Bad calls this week Sean, you my friend are taking some heavy downs.
That New Axton console behind the guard/communication officer gave me TARDIS console vibes...
I am a gigantic fan of Berman-era Trek. It's what I grew up on. But the idea of trauma and recovery being linear and wrapping up in a single episode or two is not only silly, but one of the parts of TNG especially that hasn't aged well. I'm constantly perplexed by the complaints about Jean-Luc Picard regressing from the apparent progress he made dealing with his assimilation in "Family" and "I, Borg." I see so many people say that his behavior in First Contact and Picard is "out of character," which ignores the fact that someone changed by trauma will naturally display unusual behavior. Critics seem to think that Jean-Luc Picard should be above suffering from the prolonged effects of psychological and physical trauma. I'm not the biggest fan of the decision to give him a tragic backstory in Picard Season 2, but I'm all for realistic portrayals of mental health issues.
These criticisms of Mariner's arc are incredibly frustrating. Sean, I love what you do, and normally you do a great job of navigating the nuances of controversial or complex subject matter, but this is a big miss.
And, echoing a majority of the comments, the Sito connection is brilliant, and it brings together so many pieces of the puzzle and even ties the entire series to the TNG episode "Lower Decks" in an even more impressive way. It absolutely feels like this was the plan all along, and if there's any doubt about Mariner grinding her career to a halt for so long, take a look again at "Tapestry" from TNG. Mariner is essentially mirroring the alternate version of Lt. Picard whose career has essentially gone nowhere, but instead of a lack of ambition, it's due to harmful coping mechanisms.
Sean I think you missed something important about this episode.
Theory Time: I think Lucarno is going on a rescue mission to save Sito. Who has been held prisoner all this time.
There has never been confirmation of Sito's death. The Enterprise only found wreckage at the end of lower decks. No organic matter, no biomass, only ship wreckage fragments.
Don't know if anyone else mentioned it, but Locarno's lair looked like Jabba's Palace
Pretty sure that was the inspiration
For those who do not know(and not sure why this was not mentioned) the reason why they created a new character called Paris was to they would not have to pay the original writer of the episode he first appeared in. Like with T Pau in TOS they wanted the character in Enterprise but they would have paid Sturgeon every time they used the character so they created T'Pol.
Isn't T'pau in enterprise towards the end?
Dunno how you missed the almost Jabbas Palace in there or the Outrageous o'Connor at the bar in Mudds. Also, the ship and dock Cap and the guys got off, very clone wars that. It would have been SO good to have Balock having a drink at the bar too, a missed opportunity there, and... where was Mudd?
I like the show, but sometimes I disagree with some of the downs. I probably disagree the most with this episode but that’s okay because people can disagree whilst liking the same thing.
Anyone that has been through any type of PTSD recognises her journey, and todays episode is no different. I actually think what Mariner mentions about the dominion war and what she sent through is possibly more important then Sito and I feel like that was slightly overlooked in this weeks ups and downs.
Swing and a miss Sean, HUGE swing and miss. I think everyone agrees, your opinion on Mariner is this seasons Trellium-D. It's so off point. Reminds me of all your issues with the short treks and missing that you're the joke they were making fun of.
Apparently Tawny Newsome is 40. And as one of the two Lower Decks characters to appear in live action and thus have the actor's age matter, if there were an age problem with the character (and I don't think there is), it would be Mariner being to young. I liked the Sito connection once I learned what it was-I didn't recognize the character from her name, alone. It connects Lower Decks to Lower Decks and seems perfectly believable to me. It can't be the only explanation from Mariner's behavior, as those who bring up PTSD suggest, but it fits as an early trauma that she could use as a touchstone. With the last episode of the season not yet out, one thing that does concern me is what appears to be going on with Locarno's plot. It appears that he set up a revolt of the lower decks of a bunch of different species' ships, possibly uniting the different lower deckers together. If that's what's going on, I will have to wait and see if that ends up being believable to me. That they would all revolt-maybe he chose them carefully to be mutiny-prone-and then that they would all unite, if that's what happened. And to what end? It might work for me, or it might not, once the details are revealed.
I was young when I watched TNG “Lower Decks” and felt really strong emotions when Seto died and I felt really ripped off when her name was mentioned in this episode by Marriner. It might be okay if Sito is still alive and comes back in the next episode.
The bartender in Mudd's is wearing a epaulet-shouldered navy jacket, just like Harry Mudd in "I, Mudd."
I've always thought Mariner was a lot older than her friends (with the possible exception of Rutherford). Her former classmate at the academy was already a captain in season 1. Personally my down at her attitude towards her promotion would have been in the episode she got her promotion. Didn't she tell Ransome in the S3 finale that she was finally ready for some career development? And then it was "no, I don't want a promotion"
Seeing that probably academy flight trainer shuttle reminds me of the slight deep dive I did back into the aeroshuttle yesterday, because of the wings. Not that you can do much of a deep dive into an obscure, previously non-canon iirc, Starfleet captain's-yacht-like shuttle.
Dang, I'd love for a Star Trek to actually use an aeroshuttle (or several lol)... and it pains me that they haven't used them anywhere, or at least not on screen (that I've seen anyway).
Actually, I think that outside of Voyager we've barely seen Intrepid class starships. It would be great to see more of them, and Q forbid there be an Intrepid class that _actually_ uses an Aeroshuttle. I thought I saw an Intrepid class in the season finale of Lower Decks in the Nova Fleet with that paintjob they have, but I could be wrong.
It had to be Sito - it had to be someone who died, someone who has effed up and was given a second chance, someone who was Starfleet through and through. She did grey ops stuff "back in the day" ("Back in what day?") so her being a few years younger than Wesley is totally believable.
You missed the Easter egg with the Steven Spielberg/Ghostbusters jingle when they pick up the figurine of those little dinosaur creatures
One of the stranded Orions looks like a green version of the Belter engineer from The Expanse.
Billups helmet hair was PERFECT. As for the bounty hunter gear, I like to believe that was Billups' personal stuff, from his rebellious days. He left a dragon filled sci magic world to be a sexy biker virgin bounty hunter before joining Star Fleet. Just my own personal mental cannon. -grins-
Also was it just me or did Nick's workshop look like Furlow's place from Farscape a little bit, maybe mixed with something you'd have seen when Anikan was a kid working on his pod racer?
I still think the Mariner thing is being done right, if perhaps a season too late.
I wish that we had gotten a 'Locarno and Paris are the same person' in this episode.
Tell me you know nothing about PTSD without telling me you know nothing about PTSD.
No mention of the Starburst logo from Nick's jacket also being painted on the wing of the Bird of Prey?
Im fairly certain given the bounty hunters ship design looking so much like a dragon the ship is a hysperian ship and probably billups personal property as the prince...
Sean really seems to want there to be this magical "the trauma's all gone" moment for Mariner. All of her actions in this arc make sense for someone who is suffereing from ptsd/trauma/mental illness. Recovery and growth isn't linear and it doesn't just magically go away.
Exactly. Just because TNG would just magic away such issues at the end of an episode doesn't mean that needs to happen here.
Stuff like this stakes a lot of time. Regressions and the road is not straight at all.
I suffered a pretty profound stroke in my mid thirties on the language center of my brain. It has been years now, and that path is not linear and to still comes up.
The other day I couldn't type in my phone number to get costumer service. I had to center myself, and struggle. At the end the person tried to give me an out asking if "Oh so it is a new phone number for you?"
I replied, "No, I had a stroke, numbers are always harder than words."
If my life was a TV show with a commenter just saying "ITS BEEN SEASONS WE KNOW YOU HAD A STROKE WHY IS THIS STILL HARD?!"
So much this - Seán's inability to understand basic psychology is becomming grating.
@thomasnhr1519 true but isn't the issue the suddenness of the mentioning of her connection to Jaxa?
@@swfcocs1 Meh. I don't see a problem with it. Mariner as a character obviously has a lot of problems opening up about her past. She's bound to be holding on to all kinds of surprises.
I just hope that Sean and the rest of the TrekCulture crew can take the time to read the comments from SO many of their viewers about how trauma and PTSD really work for real people, and how so many of us have found the depiction of Mariner's experiences and reactions to them to be very deeply realistic.
I do hope they have a comment reader or moderator on staff as well. They don't need to acknowledge every single comment, but take information from that. Though haven't they now and again said something like "Some of you had mentioned."?
I doubt it. They strike me as an "upload and move on" type of outfit. Sean's made some outrageous comments lately based on obvious errors on his part, and ... crickets.
They won't. This has been pointed out before a few weeks back on how his huffing is actually offensive to people who have suffered from PTSD. So what does he do.... double down on it.
@@CantankerousDavethey do talk about the comments a fair bit on the podcast. They do care - they just don't get it, at least not yet.
It definitely seems like they don't have a perspective on how PTSD affects someone. As someone with CPTSD, trauma isn't a one and done thing, it lingers in your mind and influence your thoughts and actions even if you don't realise it. She wants to be an ensign forever because she hasn't been able to move on from when she was an ensign and learned that Sito died. The part where she says "I don't want to order my friends to their deaths" screams of her mind trying to rationalise her trauma.
Trellium down of the season goes to Seán himself for misunderstanding Mariner's arc and development episode after episode, despite the comment sections on the Ups and Downs videos always doing a magnificent job explaining how her psychological journey is very true to life and accurately depicted :)
I mean, you guys are all idiots lol
Strong agree.
It's exactly why people with real mental injuries find it so hard to open up and be vulnerable.
Agreed. He (or the writers) have been unobservant and largely insufferable for most of this season.
To be fair, not reading the comments is often healthiest if a content creator.
Seán, you say that if Mariner knew Sito then she must have known Locarno. She did know him. She says, "Nick, what are you doing here?"
And the only way she could know them both AND have Sito graduate before her is if she was a first-year cadet during the TNG ep The First Duty in which both characters were introduced.
I was thinking the same. The fact that she knows Nick as the cliffhanger of the 2 parter shows that there’s more to come here. And it shows that all the disappearing ships are essentially related to Mariner and her issues all season. It’s less obvious than it could have been, but I’m here for it, assuming the finale pays off.
He gives downs because he didn't pay attention all the time. It's so annoying.
@@jimmyryan5880 I've noticed that too, but I can't find much fault with it. They have to shoot the Ups & Downs very soon after the episode is released in order to get it into editing so that it can be released same/next day for viewers. I'd be surprised if they do anything more than watch the episode once to absorb the plot, then watch it again pausing every 10 seconds to jot down easter eggs. Then they shoot. That's not a lot of time to let things peculate, or to notice finely crafted details. It's a testament to how well Shawn and the crew know Star Trek that they see as much as they see immediately on first viewing.
It bothers me a bit more that Shawn will keep beating a dead horse week after week (like the bit about Mariner's older age or severe long term PTSD not having been hinted at, when they have been hinted at every few episodes since the first season) even as the comment's section points out to him that he's completely wrong and just doesn't understand what's happening... but as others have pointed out, he probably doesn't read the comment's section. You can't read the comment's section as a content creator and stay sane.
But geez. I pointed out in the comments for the Season 1 Episode 5 (and 9) Ups & Downs how they were setting up a PTSD healing arc for Mariner. And I'm pretty sure I (and others) pointed out in Episode 1 Season 1 comments that Mariner had to be at a very minimum 10 years older than the other 3, or her claim to have served on 5 ships didn't make sense. I'm not sure how Shawn and the rest of the Trekculture crew missed all of that. Maybe a full series rewatch is in order for all of them:). None of this came out of nowhere.
@@jasonwalker9471you’ve absolutely nailed it
Nog was 21 when he became an ensign. Kim was 22 at the start of Voyager. Wesley was 19 when he became an ensign. The actress who played Sito was 22 when they made the episode. And Mariner said Sito graduated before her. Sito was killed in 2370. Lower Decks season 1 started in 2380. So Mariner was probably between 20 - 22 in 2370 and between 30 - 32 when Lower Decks started. She's not that old.
and considering we know she was on DS9 at the same time as worf, is friends with Riker, and graduated the same year as someone who has already become a captain, it's not even surprising.
Plus, all that rank and ship bouncing she has done isn't something you just do in 2 years or so
@@Olochguall great points. She is clearly older than the others.
@@danriverso1053 Not necessarily. Starfleet Academy is more like a University in that anyone can apply at any time. Boimler, for example, could be the same age as Mariner, but he just enlisted at a later time.
She is definitely more experienced than the rest of the main cast, but that does not necessitate an older age.
It's also not unexpected for people to graduate younger as Chekov was 17 when he graduated the Academy.
love the show and i largely agree with most of the observations made, however, i look at Mariner's character regression in much the same way i see a person struggling with addiction. there will be relapses.
You waste 5 minutes to talk about your dislike that Mariner (who we know is older than her peers, seeing as she served on DS9 alongside Worf and went to the academy with a friend who has already been promoted to captain) knew Sito and claim that that's the reason she has been acting the way she has, and then don't even mention the ACTUAL reason she is the way she is?
She doesn't act out because of Sito, she acts out because she has PTSD from the dominion war and hates how Starfleet has become more militaristic over the years. Sito is not important because she died, but because she was killed by Cardassians on some sabotage mission.
5 minutes for that rant but no mention of her PTSD? that's a DOWN from me.
This channel has been really ablist about PTSD
It's like they didn't even listen to Mariner's monologue. The fact that she is at a point where she can self-critically examine her past trauma and talk to a stranger about it is already showing huge character growth. Criticism like Sean's is exactly why people struggling with mental injuries are so afraid to really be vulnerable and talk about them.
honestly the whole framing in Trekculture's take feels a LOT of internalized ablism- we can be our harshist critics. It's hard to be reminded how nonlinear healing from PTSD is. For me and friends' who have done decades of work processing trauma, you start to feel worse as you start to heal.
Starfleet is full of ineffective therapists back to TOS. It's makes sense that she could find that with a klingon.@@QuintusAntonious
Agreed, huge down. He is so completely caught up in thinking and ranting about how Mariner should just magically be better that he's ignoring all the real story about PTSD and trauma. It's absolutely awful, and it's souring me on the whole channel.
Ha. Clocking in at 29 minutes, half the vid is ranting. Where are the editors 😂
Sean, it has to be Sito because if their tracking Locarto, Freeman won't want to trigger Beckett. Hence the side mission. This shows Freeman is an even better mom then the conference room scene demonstrated.
But why, exactly, does it have to be Sito? It's that type of justification that people were saying that Seven of Nine was going to appear in the first season of Prodigy, simply because the kids had developed a mentorship with Hologram Janeway and, later, Admiral Janeway.
If we want to invoke logic into the scene, I would have to give a down to the fact that Freeman didn't relieve Mariner of active duty when it was apparent she was trying to "get herself killed." Of course, had she done so, there would have been no story; however if Mariner's issues are so extreme that the captain is concerned and even the idea of sending her to the ship's counsellor is deemed insufficient, the worst place for Mariner is on active duty.
I have had similar struggles in the past, though nowhere to such an extreme, but I know from personal experience that you're not completely rational in that frame of mind, and sometimes you need something like being relieved of duty to accept that you've messed up and take the steps necessary to heal.
sorry, have to disagree with Sean, this is my favourite episode of the series, the sito/locarno stuff may well be fan service but it's done so well that it doesn't diminish the episode at all.
also, the klingon ma'ah is with mariner, I'm surprised they didn't twig on, thought it was obvious from the moment he showed up.
Have to disagree about Beckett.
The trauma of that lost and the grief, AND then maybe making new connections with people just to have them slaughtered in the Dominion War…
That will surely short circuit her moving past Ensign
Sean always seems to think maturity is linear--once you stop acting a certain way once you never act that way again. It's not like that at all. Mariner has deeply habituated coping behavior stemming from extreme trauma. She's not going to just snap out of it and be "normal" because she met some friends, learned some lessons, and got a promotion. Healing takes time and "growth" takes intentional long term sustained effort. People backslide, it's normal and Lower Decks in its humorous over the top way is actually portraying it pretty well.
Is it possible to give a comment a Dilithium Up? Aw, who cares, I'm doing it anyway. From episode ONE it was evident that Beckett Mariner is a very troubled young woman in a way that is hard to immediately pin down to specific reasons, even for herself. When the Klingon points out that she's at war with herself, I think that's the first time she actually tries to look back to where it all started.
Also, point of fact, Sito and Mariner don't have to be the same age for them to have been friends at the Academy.
Also also, her commanding attitude when she starts trying to get everyone together honestly makes me think that her old dream of making Captain isn't as far fetched as it might have been.
100%. Trauma makes growth difficult especially if there is no catharsis. Here it seems Mariner may have finally gotten that catharsis. Her rebellion, her antics, her apparent growth and then slipping back into old habits - it is all something that major trauma can create in people. I appreciate that we finally see is at the root of Mariner's trauma - the thing that hurt her and stifled her growth. The real grief she still deals with.
@@Anduril74871 good point about age, Sito could have been in her senior year of the academy when Mariner was a freshmen. Like Picard said to Wesley about having a stigma hanging over him while he is at the academy the same would have been true of Sito. I would imagine the Academy making sure the three remaining members of a Nova Squad lived in separate dorms and never had any of the same classes so Sito would have been very much alone by her senior year leading into a friendship / mentorship like relationship with Mariner who saw Sito as someone who made a mistake but refused to give up gets assigned to the flagship and then gets killed on black ops mission she never thought she would be on. Mariner not only lost a friend but a mentor which in turn caused her to spiral into a self destructive way of life.
I thought that they were actually making the Dominion War more of the reason for Mariner not wanting command, because she didn't want to send her crew to the horrors of war. The trauma of that, combined with the Sito Jaxa trauma, sealed her desire to avoid command.
I think this actually was planned from day one. Mariner has always been hinted to be about the same age as Wesley Crusher. She was on DS9 concurrent with the events of the show and therefore the Dominion War. They set up her fear of losing friends and attachment issues early. We've seen and been told that she has been promoted and demoted a number of times. It makes sense that during the war, when faced with potentially ordering her friends to their deaths, she fell into this defensive habit of getting herself demoted before she's forced to make a tough call. But now that demotion is essentially off the table, she is fully spinning out and taking on extra risks to avoid making those kinds of choices. If she takes all of the risks, all of the time she won't have to lose any more friends. Sito is important because she's clearly the first close friend to have died in the line of duty. But Mariner being around for the war means she was far from the last. That she was involved with the Dominion War has been hinted at for a long time as the thing that sets her apart from her younger friends who were not.
Perfect
I second that, perfect.
I love this comment. Really well said
100% CORRECT…Sean, how have you missed this?!
Yes. I was thinking this (well, some of it) while Sean was saying why he didn't like it. Like you said, if Mariner takes on all the risks, then her friends (whom she loves deeply and wouldn't hesitate to give her life for) stay safe.
The more we learn about Mariner, the more absolutely tragic her character becomes. She wanted to be in Star Fleet more than anything; to explore strange, new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations. In short, young Mariner was the embodiment of the entire ideal encapsulated by Star Trek (in the meta sense). Then, the façade began to crumble. First, it was Nick Locarno and his wrecklesness. The Sito, who has done her damnedest to earn back the respect of Star Fleet (as personified by Picard), succeeds, but only to be killed immediately after. Then, the events of DS9 (war after war). Undoubtedly, Mariner saw other friends ordered to their deaths. Mariner may have had to order some enlisted personnel and ensigns to their demise during the war, but she can't bring herself to talk about it, so her friends don't know. Mariner has likely suffered such an amount of trauma that she has no business being anything other than reduced to a "human" in name only.
Yet, she carries on. Maybe she has a drive to protect her younger compatriots to spare them from a fate that she witnessed (and pethaps even ordered) countless times. Her drive to protect her friends is stronger than the clear PTSD she has. She might know that she is walking through the deepest reaches of Hell, but she'll be damned if she lets her friends suffer what she did.
It also confirms that Locarno and Paris are different people. This has SMASHED so many fan theories
I was really hoping for a joke about how they look alike!
@@zcolescottThere’s still episode 10… 😂
I was suprised that Boimler - Paris fanboy - made no mention of the likeness!
We still haven’t seen them in the same room. I’m not yet convinced.
Well the fact that they probably decided to make paris a different character because they didn't want to pay royalties to the writers who created Locarno... 30 years on now we use the character. Hopefully Locarno shows up every 4th episode from here on out.
And no, it's not just a respectful difference of opinion. It's wrong on both counts. That's not how ptsd works, Mariner isn't going to have one revelation with her mom and be all better, and that's not how story-telling works, Sito being from the literal series title episode is not just a 'name drop'.
The one good thing is that 90% of the comments are people telling Sean that he's wrong about this.
Looking back at Lower Decks and knowing where the initial inspiration for the show came from the Sito twist makes perfect sense that her death was the trigger for Mariner's reckless path so definitely don't agree with that down.
it's the premise of the show as the aftermath of the original episode. and it was Mariners first loss to the Cardassians before the war
I think her DS9 scene and knowledge of the TNG and DS9 crew were the clues. Also her clear advanced knowledge and how capable she is and her knowledge of Klingon society (that she would have learned in the dominion war) all place her at the point in time that her knowing Sito Jaxa is certainly plausible. Having the reason she acts the way she does because she has PTSD and survivor's guilt is 100% plausible. Sorry Sean, I gotta down your down.
Mariner’s age has always been evident, from all the tidbits and places she was stationed, her knowledge, and who she knows. She has a classic Peter Pan Syndrome, and know we know why. It’s actually deep.
Not to mention at least one of her classmates made captain already.
Peter Pan Syndrome? I never heard of that. Which is weird because I think I have that.
The thing that bothers me about the downs is it's judging the show for not being something else. The writers have decided to take a particular approach to Mariner's character this season, ok TrekCulture may not agree with that approach, but that's what happening. To continually give downs doesn't make any sense - sure downvote if it seems like they're not executing on that approach properly, but they are! It's just not logical to downvote every episode because you don't like the season arc. The approach they're taking is entirely coherent.
Lots of people have been very eloquently expressing where I think you got the Sito stuff way wrong... but a small thing, Mariner didn't "cause" the scientist in the cold open to lose his eyes through her reckless action. She didn't ignore a safer plan for her reckless one, she just very recklessly snapped into action. Her plan pretty much worked to boot. Yeah a Moopsy 2 got into the base on her back, but at the end of the day that scientist immediately thought they would all die when the shield went down, they didn't even have time to think of a safer plan, and the reality is if she didn't act lots more people would have gotten hurt / died. The point of the scene wasn't to say she was being dangerously reckless and getting people hurt. She was being dangerously reckless in her efforts to find a solution. Feels like you were exaggerating to point. Just wanted to get that off my chest.
Really the scientist should have checked to make sure that all the animals were contained and Mariner was in no ways contaminated before he took off his helmet.
thank you for stating what I was thinking
Well, he was a panicky sort. I guess this isn't going to help with that. yet sometimes adversity will provide a path...hmmm...@@claudiadarling9441
And they would have all died as they building and their suits were obviously not enough to stop the creatures.
Also like. This is Star Trek. Just last week Doctor T'Ana regrew an ensign's foot. That scientist is gonna be fine.
I'm very disappointed in how the issue of Ensign Sito being "name dropped" was took precedence over Mariner's personal suffering. She obviously is suffering from so form of mental illness most likely some form of depression and PTSD. Sito was her role model and close friend the died on a secret mission. Sean, why couldn't you see how devasting losing a close friend can be? Also, why didn't you speak about Mariner's response to the Klingon's words about the honor and glory of serving on DS9 during the Dominion War? She told him there was no glory, but it was just a massacre. She is troubled from all she has seen and endured. She is still recovering in silence. She just needs help dealing with her trauma.
This episode hit close to home because my wife has severe PTSD and has tried to commit ***cide six times. People do irrational things when they're suffering. Next time, don't knit pick the plot to the point to where you miss out on what message is trying to be conveyed.
It's interesting that Sean (?) has no trouble seeing PTSD in Shax but cant seem to understand the same thing in Mariner.
@alexanderhunt5473100% shaun just doesnt understand this. And honestly, im happy for him. I wish i didnt.
It’s clear to me Sito was the first of many friends who died. Mariner graduated the academy and got thrown into the teeth of a galactic war. A bucket of trauma makes all the sense in the world.
@@michellegiacalone1079 THIS! To me what the obvious difference between those 2 characters is gender. I am starting to notice Sean has more empathy and enthusiasm, or at least has it more readily with male presenting presenting characters than female presenting? I wonder if this is an unconscious bias he might have.
It may have been a while since you guys have seen “extreme risk”. I watched this episode and saw a parallel to how b’elanna was acting to how mariner is currently acting. They were both acting out of character because of past unresolved trauma.
Yes! Glad you caught this.
I thought of that too. Figured I was wrong/overthinking. Glad you came out with this.
Yep. I was gonna refer to this episode but knew someone would have beaten me to it. I thought it was obvious.
The First Duty occured 13 years before this episode. For Sito to graduate before Mariner, she'd have to be at least two years older than her. If Sito was at most 20, then Mariner would be at most 18 during the episode. This puts Mariner at 31 at most.
This lines up with Boimler who has been confirmed to be at most 27.
Sito at the end of the first appereance lost all the year credit, so she probably be forced to lost an year
That means the timeline is right for Mariner being the girl in that first season TNG episode. But I feel like if she grew up on the _D_ she wouldn't have talked about Sito getting a spot on it the way she did.
Mariner was also a military brat and a prodigy in her own right. She likely attended the academy at the earliest age possible.
I've been saying for a few seasons now that the math and backstory supported Mariner being in her early 30's, 31-32 is a perfect fit.
We don't know how old Mariner is, just that she's a lot older than we think.
Giving a down for Ensign Sito and Mariner's tie in to the original Lower Decks episode is crazy to me. Especially since Nick got the latinum up. The hypocrisy...
You keep using that word . . .
just opinion. thanks for yours too .
I wouldn’t call it hypocrisy but I otherwise agree with you
I bet that mentioning Sito here will play some importance in the next episode too; and wasn't just thrown in like Sean seems to think it was. A mistake he has made in critiques opf episodes of Lower Decks several times before.
@@jasontoddman7265 Same. With Sito apparently MIA or KIA ... Would be an interesting hook if Nick (and/or other Squad Members, including the "forgotten" one) get Mariner to take part in their plans to maybe "Rescue(?) Sito or maybe "avenge" her. Break her out of a Fortress/Strong Hold or something... Thinking some kind of "DS9: Blood Oath" (2x19) type Mission.
So I have to disagree that Sito feels like it’s just a name drop. I didn’t think so. The way Mariner delivers the tale, you can feel that deep painful sadness and missing her. I actually shed a tear at the telling of it. I honestly thought this was worthy of a platinum up
Come on, Sean. The road through healing is not linear and not without the traps that make us circle back, re-wound ourselves, and suffer. I have been where Mariner is, split between the necessary experience of moving forward in life and _wanting not to._ I'm kind of in it right now, if I'm honest. The frustration you show Mariner mirrors the frustration my friends once showed me when I wasn't healing the way _they_ expected me to -- and made the wound much, much worse.
You're wrong, she's always fighting Cardassians on the holodeck since Season 1, I think this was the plan for Mariner all along.
Good point, didn't think of that.
I disagree. We already know that Mariner was demoted several times, and have served befoe the Dominion War. I think the connection with Sito was perfect.
I wondered if Mariners behaviour was a slight throwback to the DS9 episode with Nog living in the holosuite. She even refers to the dominion war in her confession with the Klingon. If intentional by the writers it’s a nice way to connect the events of Lower Decks (the TNG episode) and the dominion war arc in DS9 and acknowledge how these types of conflicts can cause long term effects for the people and societies involved.
You know it’s odd. You had mentioned how sad you were that Ma’ah had apparently met his demise in the season premiere, and then proceeded to not mention him once by name when he made his return.
he was too busy hating mariner and ignoring her trauma.
I don't know why, but I _love_ Ma'ah, and I was thrilled to see he survived. A little disappointed that all he gets is a couple passing references to "the klingon".
I thought Tawny Newsome’s delivery in the scene was excellent. Emotional without being overblown. Something like that could so easily be screwed up.
Hear, hear.
AGREE!
Agreed. It's like at the end of "New Eden" on Discovery, while Pike is recovering and asks Burnham not to make him laugh, the slight laugh he gives to Burnham's joke could have been easily overdone.
Any criticisms of the content of the episode aside, the performance was an up.
You've completely missed the mark on ensign Sito tbh, it's clear that she was name dropped because Mariner knows those characters personally as a part of her backstory where she used to be stationed on the Enterprise. She's at the middle of this story and is getting Downed for it
Not only that, with Riker being Freeman's mentor from season 1, Mariner being around that time was definitely planned from the start
First episode of Ups & Downs I didn't like. The entire point of Mariner acting the way she does is that its out of character, reckless, and dangerous. At this point she seems to be, at least passively, suicidal. Character development doesn't strictly mean positive growth, and making it a down this week feels like you're reducing all characters to caricatures who aren't allowed to regress or have anything but a perfect arc from bad to good.
Regressing to hurting someone and then not even relenting is not just a little regression
@@OhNoTheFaceShe didn’t hurt anyone. The behavior was indicative of the regression which was caused by a trauma. The rest was a consequence without intent.
@@matthewshalk9665 Exactly. He was alive to be attacked because she got the force field back up. Did she do things well? Uh, no, definitely not, but it's a little harsh to blame that all on her, especially given that the scene was driven at least partly by Rule of Funny.