Interesting that yous say that the Romulans may of had cloaked fleets ready to save the day. This may be an example: #InfernoLights ua-cam.com/video/pIcQ4Gm9GSM/v-deo.html
If they DID they shoulda done something. All they had to do was sucker a large amount of enemy troops into their territory.. it's been PERFECT for a trap if they was ALWAYS gonna turn on the Dominion
@@robertagu5533 In a situation like that it is going to be about timing. The timing wasn't right. If Lore Reloaded is right, the best strategy would be to strike JUST as the Dominion was achieving victory. The Dominion would likely have dedicated nearly all of their forces and left their core systems exposed. Then the Dominion fleet is caught between two hostile forces, cut off from resupply, and effectively unable to retreat to friendly territory. Plus they will have taken losses which will put them in an even worse position. THEN you also have all the other powers of the quadrant very, very grateful to you for saving the day, effectively meaning they are going to support your foreign policy down the road.
Imo it's similar to Klingon houses. Various sub groups who have their own fleet. The Praetor in charge of the main fleet, Tal Shiar 2nd largest, and the others.
Vreenak in his ship while returning to Romulus: [thinking to himself] "This falsified cardassian data rod proves how weakened and desperate they are, the time has come to join the fight on their side. Well, captain Sisko, I guess you got what you wanted, even if it didn't happen the way you expected. I look forward to establishing my office at DS9 whi-" *BOOOM*
I agree, it shows Capt. Sisko to be an even more nuanced person. It also shows that war isn't all tea and medals, it's sacrifice and devastation on both sides.
In my opinion it's the best episode. Garek is the best character on DS9. It may be narrated by Sissko and from his perspective but it's all about Garek.
The Romulans have never had the numbers to win a slugging match against Starfleet or the Klingons. Props to them for playing the long and smart game. It is highly unlikely that the Imperial Navy would have been able to mount 15 separate assaults on Dominion bases immediately after entering the war. The assets to carry out those operations and the plans to do so would have taken weeks if not months to gather and coordinate. No, they were already in place and ready.
I think the 24th century Romulans were significantly stronger than the 23rd or 22nd century Romulans who had been defeated by Earth in the Earth-Romulan war. I think they grew tremendously in strength during the 50 years they had little interaction with the Federation, as mentioned in TNG episode, The Neutral Zone. The fact that the Romulans could attack a Klingon colony, that they can interfere in the Klingon civil war between Gowron and the Duras clan, without touching off a war which they would lose, supports that. They certainly have much more impressive ships, like the D'deridex class.
@xc5647321 xc5647321 They were fighting the Borg. When the Romulans were being reintroduced on TNG, the intention was to show them as being more powerful than Starfleet, with giant warbirds, then having the Borg destroy them easily. Fortunately, the writers of TNG backpedalled from this original idea.
15 assaults on bases not near the frontlines? It wouldn’t take that many ships. Perhaps a few each base. It was never specified how important or well defended these bases were, especially considering the historically cordial relations between Romulus and Cardassia. I would agree they had ships there ready to spring into action. It just didn’t take fleets of hundreds of ships to do so. These were merely outposts.
I suspect Garak conspired with the Tal Shiar to assassinate Vreenak. That's the real reason he had faith the rod would pass inspection after the explosion he'd already made arrangements with Koval
Did you forget that the Romulans and Remans were building Scimitar class ships too? Or in the process of building them. Only one got built before the war was over, but a ship of that size and with that much firepower doesn't get built overnight. They had planned them probably from their loss at the Founder's home world. My guess is that the Romulans were holding back so they could focus on building several Scimitar ships. Each one fitted with a perfect cloaks, enough conventional firepower to match an entire attack wing, and with a thaleron radiation weapon that was capable to wiping out all life on a planet. After the War with the Dominion, whoever was the victor would quickly be at the mercy of a fleet of Scimitar ships. All a Scimitar ship had to do was stroll up to a Dominion/Federation/Klingon planet, de-cloak, fire the thaleron weapon, and leave. With their perfect cloak no one would see them coming and no one would know where they left to.
It was stated in nemesis that the scimitar was built by the reman rebellion, probably as the only ship in its class. It was a specialist superweapon, specifically designed to crush the federation, or the Romulans if necessary.
Great analysis. I agree that Garak always had the "back up plan" as his plan A all along. The holo recording needed to look as authentic as possible but the rod as you say was impossible to get. That bio mimetic gel was previously mentioned on the show and obviously had black market value. This episode is some good Fn Trek!! Oh and "Irregardless" should just be regardless shouldn't it?
But the defiant was detected while cloaked if memory serves which would lead me to think that the cloaking tech was useless which is why they needed to steal an enemy ship to get into enemy territory idk might be the excuse I need to justify a rewatch
I believe the Romulans knew the Federation had faked the recording, but were impressed enough by the Federation's treachery that it inspired them to abandon their neutrality. Such an action would signal to them that they weren't dealing with a 'weak' Federation anymore, but rather a new, battle-hardened faction willing to do whatever it took to win.
That strikes me as a pretty fair assessment. The Federation has never really spoken the same language as the Romulans. They negotiate with Klingons in the language of honor, and even though they have very different views on what actions are honorable, there is enough congruence for them to mostly get along in their alliance. But Romulans speak the language of ruthless political maneuver and intrigue, which is pretty much indecipherable to the Federation. Between them, Sisko and Garak (mostly Garak) managed to propose an alliance in terms that made sense to the Romulans.
I don't think so. to assassinate a senator in an attempt to frame a common enemy is really egregious and would warrant a response. Especially from an enemy like the Federation that they had deep mistrust for. The only way that could work if there were people in Romulan intelligence who suppressed the truth.
My theory is that the Romulans planned to enter the war all along… they just wanted the Federation and Klingons to get beat up as much as possible before they acted so that they would have a stronger negotiating position once the war was over. I mean look how quickly they attacked after Vreenaks ship was destroyed. Even Vreenak himself was likely going to use the data rod as justification to join the alliance… he just would have used as a blackmail or bargaining chip against the Federation and Sisko later on
@@charleshendren3961I always viewed it as the Romulans planned to enter if they felt they could tip the scales, and only after all parties had exhausted themselves sufficiently. This would give them the primary position in both quadrants. They were looking for an opportunity to spoil it for everyone.
I kind of suspect that they were waiting for their assistance to be asked for when the alliance was desperate and would be able to negotiate terms for political concessions that would benefit solely them both during and after the war. The senator did seem to start to agree with Sisko and I’m wondering that that was part of their plan had Sisko not been deceiving them the senate would more formally (if secretly) offer their allegiance to the alliance... for a price. If Sisko hadn’t made the effort to arrange the meeting then they could have done much as what was theorised in this video to cover that possibility. However the deception pushed them into joining out of seeming self preservation and vengeance likely saving starfleet and (perhaps unknowingly) the klingon empire from having to pay any cost (except their integrity).
seems really likely, the romulans charged starfleet a hell of a lot for that single cloaking device and were waiting for the federation to come to them and ask for aid letting them ask for territory and technology
German spy planes flying over England: It looks like the allies are amassing a large invasion force bound for caleigh! George Patton popping out of a vent: IT’S A FAAAAAAAAAKE.
It's Regardless.. trying to defend "irregardless" is equivalent to people using the word "literally" as an exaggeration rather than its literal definition. That being awesome channel and video
Them having cloaked fleets just near by kind of makes sense considering how they showed up to the worm hole to support the Klingons and Federation right after the Cardassians joined the Dominion. Honestly I wish they had used the Romulans more because they didn't really get to do much. In the final battle the Romulan command ship was destroyed so they wouldn't have to include a Romulan officer talking with the leaders of the Klingons and Federation. They effectively just became more ships. Then again I think it was just a plot line that got lost along the way like the Jem'hadar Alphas vs Gammas, the Romulan officer who was operating the Defiant's cloak, and any time the amount of white was limited.
Ive already made the promise to stop the moment a live video can go its initialy 48 hours with out anyone noting it.. you are the fourth in under 12 alas :(
@@LoreReloaded Oh wow I didn't realize I wasn't the only one >_< It's not meant as a jab. It was drilled into me by every English teacher since the 6th grade to not use it, so whenever I hear it I flash back to freshman year HS English
I would have made the same choices as Sisko. He knew that Star Fleet was not ready to fight a war in the “down and dirty” style that was needed to win and allow the Federation planets to remain free. War is not a nice and clean business. If you are going to enter into a war you must fight it to win as quickly as possible. Save lives by fighting with the gloves off.
I always thought the Romulans were going to enter the war on the side of the Alpha Quadrant, but were just waiting for the right time(the Dominion was never going to let them go unpunished), but Sisko's actions in "The Pale Moonlight" bought their plans forward, which clearly they were prepared for(15 bases? Not a reaction given the tactics we have seen from them). Your theory makes a lot of sense.
They may have also spent the intervening time building up their fleet (and personnel) _as quickly as possible,_ they did seem to have a bunch of new ship types in the post war period - maybe they were used during the war, but were always hidden behind a D'deridex in the archival footage. After the Talshiar fleet was wiped out (and observing the Defiant in action) they may have switched to producing smaller more nimble ships to counter the Bugships and had fleet yards working round the clock on the new designs, while using their current inventory of D'deridex as the backbone of the fleet - maybe with some hasty upgrades [imagine what Starfleet could've accomplished if they had had as much lead to time that war was imminent and no delusions as to the scale - Galaxy's getting proper war refitting that used _all_ the space, while every other shipyard pumps out Defiants]. Basically use the time to fully mobilise and*re-equip* for the upcoming war.
It makes sense for the romulans to use up their existing fleet of D'Deridex class vessels in any case- with their singularity drives there was no real chance of major upgrades to the power generation capabilities of those ships to mount newer technologies, and it wouldn't be easy to decommission a warbird once it reached the end of its designed lifespan for fear of leaving a small black hole in one of your major shipbuilding facilities... all of this suggests that the D'Deridex class warbird, and any other ships using the same power source, were expected to be used to the point of destruction
They had the new Warbids and the Scimitar being developed for the Dominion war. The problem with Romulans are their ships are inefficient. Their main vessels are battlecruisers because They make up their technological deficiency with their knowledge on Gravity which allow them to make their singularity to provide greater energy to power their less efficient vessels. Their bird of prey arent even seen. And yes, the Bird of Prey is originally an Romulan design that was given and improved by the Klingon with the cloaking device in exchange in helping improve Romulan warp drives.
Question Lore Reloaded, if you don't mind. Had Nero turned the Narada over to the Romulan Star Empire, how would it effect the Kelvin Timeline both in short and long term?
Except we DIDN'T have large amounts of powerful military forces IMMEDIATELY in place and ready to IMMEDIATELY attack a lot of enemy forces IMMEDIATELY on joining either war though. Sure we had initial mass numbers could gather in a hurry BUT they were far from elite units, least initially.
@@robertagu5533 Correction World War I, the US was ready in July 1917, within 3 months of April 6th 1917 declaration of war, the American Expeditionary Force (AEF) under General John Pershing began combat in Europe. The US thanks to the assistance of former President Theodore Roosevelt had undergone a "preparedness movement" prior to war, drilling and arming an army years before it was to see combat.
@@time391 Yes, there is strong evidence that America (Government) was always willing to join the war from the very start, but the American people had no stomach for the war, and the sinking of the Lusitania was used as an excuse to rile the people up, a battle cry so to speak.
I agree with your assertion here. The Romulan MO is intelligence and subterfuge. it wouldn't be shocking if the operation from the Tal Shiar and Obsidian order was calculated to gain insight or intentionally weaken the Cardassian position. If they wipe out the Obsidian Order, it's to their benefit. If this organization had been absorbed into Dominion intelligence, it could've been disastrous for everyone in the Alpha and Beta quadrants with what they knew. So they hedge their bets, get free intelligence, and take out a rival power's strongest card. Then let the other two stronger military powers slug it out with them, learn more, and come in later when they had a reasonable chance of tipping the scale to the devils they can control. Sure, it was a resource hit, but it played out to their advantage long term.
I kinda had the feeling the Romulans were gathering intelligence on Dominion tactics. Another thought on that, I also think the Romulans had ships follow Dominion fleets when they went into battle and also had some enter Cardassian space to gather intelligence on the Dominion that way.
2:45 - For some reason, I just imagined a grizzled Tal’Shiar veteran seeing an image of Dominion forces, and then muttering “I fear no man, no government, no covert intelligence arm... but that... that chills my green blood to the core...” xD
There is another option besides being a paper tiger: They're a straight reluctant one. Dictatorial regimes almost never risk existential conflict unless directly attacked if they have strong potential for rebellion at home. So maybe they ARE weaker than they look, but also why take unnecessary risks
I think the simple portrayal is that the Romulans were just opportunist fence-sitters, playing both sides so that they'd not truly lose regardless of who won. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the view of some Trek writers. There is the possibility that, even if the Romulans were sitting cloaked in readiness to aid the Federation/Klingons, they were also sitting in readiness to help the Dominion. But, as the video points out, the only side that offered the Romulans the chance to come out as "heroes" and thus benefitting their position was to help the Federation in their time of need.
I always assumed the Romulans are the ones that gave Garak the info about the Senator making the trip. The Romulan opposition to the Senator set him up.
I'm not sure I buy that the Romulans were always ready to be Big Damn Heroes at the 11th Hour but I think they knew what Sisko knew that once the Federation and Klingons were taken care of, the Romulans would be next on the chopping block.
It is also possible that the Romulans would discover the forgery, but, it being in their better interests to change sides, accused the Dominion anyway believing, as Sisko himself did, that there were plans of this nature against them. Further, it might have suited the ambitions of a number of factions to have this Senator eliminated. Romulans are Romulans and will conspire against one another as fast as they do against their enemies.
Sisko's monologue at the time end of the episode efficively implied that the Romulans always planned to strike against the Dominion. Launching a massive attack all across the border against 15 bases literally moments after the declaration of war meant that the Romulan fleets were already mobilized, strategy already set, and specific battle plans already in place. All forces were just waiting for a single word from Romulus.
You seem to have forgotten that in the earlier episode "The die is cast," the Romulans and the Cardassians teamed up and collected a large war fleet to do a pre-emptive strike on the Founders' home planet. But the plan failed, their fleet was ambushed and destroyed. Both the Romulans and the Cardassians lost a major part of their armies in that episode, and neither were in shape to continu the war against the dominion. So the Romulans signed the non-aggresion pact with the Dominion.
You have no idea how complex the Rihannsu Imperium (Romulan Star Empire) really is, structurally: not only is their government essentially a true republic bolstered by a secret police that's almost second-to-none and an extremely deadly starfleet at that, but they've got elements of their administration that largely would resemble essentially a sort of Austrian Empire set into not only the 24th Century AD and also adding in a very baffling administrative structure, including a monarch, hence a regal family line, and a true republic, for in the last days of the Austrian Empire they actually had elected legislatures; problem they had was major fist-fights among their senators whenever they tried to pass any legislation... and they too have something of a feudal structure. They, psychologically, have a similar home-governance structure to what the Klingons and/or Lyrans have, a downright feudal society but advanced spacefaring technology all mixed together; how'd this develop? Very simple: they had to cling together as a society because they were basically a breakaway colony system from Vulcan due to ideological conflicts- that plays a huge part in classic Romulan Paranoia- which's a survival trait on their part, as is the same with anyone who's suffered abuse come to think of it- and also plays into with their desire to reunify with Vulcan as a single people- they can and would easily win in a war with their neighbors, but the cost to them in terms of lives lost and damage would be prohibitively expensive; they have also completely shlacked the Borg and other adversaries on many an occasion, and often if not always enslaving their captives from wars in what amount to Gulags... but the cost to them in odds of fending off future adversaries, against whom they've constantly come out successful, with some notable exceptions, such as the "Romulan War" for instance, but not without cost in terms of ability to fend off future adversaries- that's what they fear: 'while we clobber this enemy we'll wind up too weak to fend off those adversaries' kind of deal. That's what makes them so unwilling to fight, unless they must to ensure the collapse and conquest of an enemy. Look at what they did to the native Remans for instance: they only won the hard-fought struggle against them by means of discovering that the Remans were temporarily disabled by a bright light and with that they won the war, subjugated them, and enslaved them, as was typical of their society. But when they employed the Remans as soldiers in the Dominion War the Remans loved the idea as it turns out; the Romulans had recruited more than a billion battalions in less than two weeks and trained them very well for combat indeed, and then Shinzon's vessel design proved flat-out devastating to the Dominion at that in all sorts of encounters- he was going wheresoever he chose and attacking them at will, constantly successful in his campaign against the Dominion.
Lore theory: Venom Geek Media did a brilliant analysis on this some time ago. His Battlespace episodes are well worth a watch. The Romulans were watching the Dominion under cloak. They knew where their bases were and exactly how to destroy them. The Romulans are not stupid, it's a chess match, yes, but a three-dimensional, possibly fourth, one. The Romulans knew that eventually would have to join the war. Senator Verenak's assassination by Garak was an excuse they could act upon. The fleet they sent to Deep Space Nine was a fraction of their entire Navy. Remember, the Tal Shiar fleet and the Romulan Navy were two separate entities. Can't run an empire which is two thirds the size the Federation without having plenty ships. Oh and the Romulans were well aware Section 31 and its ability to make assassination look like accidents. They never took the Senators assassination at face value...it would be un-Romulan.
"Paper tiger" early on, then "a lot of firepower" later. I think it's safe to say that Romulans were powerful enough to be an existential threat to either the Klingons or the Federation if they went all-in. But they never went all-in because they also wouldn't win. They would just end up taking out most of the power of one of the other two with them. Largely because, while they had the most advanced weapons systems of the three (in the 24th century, not earlier), they had nowhere near enough manpower and were concentrated on so few planets that one magic FTL supernova could ruin them. I would also argue they weren't very expansionist. They didn't WANT to conquer the Federation or Klingons. Unlike their rivals and other powers, we see them having a very well defined space that is more defensible. You can't cut off sections of Romulan space like you can Klingon or Federation space. When they take something, they move their line slightly, and it's always for a tactical advantage, not territorial expansion. And, tellingly, they bottle up for decades at a time - they're an isolationist power. That's not to say they won't attack deep into enemy territory, though. They would certainly try to cut off the head of their enemies as the Tal Shiar attempted with the Founder "homeworld" and the attempted invasion of Vulcan. But neither of these gained them territory. Just stability. And we also saw that goal in Enterprise with them attempting to stop the alliances of Vulcan, Andoria, Earth and Tellar in order to maintain the existing balance of power that they felt safe with. I think it's safer to say they were biding their time, looking for an opportunity to successfully do what the Tal Shiar failed to do. As you said, they knew how to work around the Federation and Klingon Empire, but they had to know they would be subjects of the Dominion eventually if the Federation lost. I think your theory is mostly correct, but "paper tiger" is going too far.
I fully agree, and someone else touched on this briefly, but I have a theory that goes deeper. We don’t know all the details of the treaty of Algerian, but I don’t think the UFP ceded cloaking technology for nothing, nor were they the only signers. The UFP survives and thrives by inclusion and taking the high road. That means membership and alliances, leading to supremacy by conventional power. I hold that the Romulans were at best a third rate power, Cardassians being the 4th, and they couldn’t hope to match anyone else in conventional warfare. Meaning their only chance at supremacy was WMDs. There are many mentions of certain weapons being banned, including Thaleron. By what authority would anyone enforce such a ban? By a coalition far greater than the UFP alone. I think that not only the UFP, but the Klingons, Ferengi, Talarians, Breen, and many others signed on to essentially annihilate the Romulan military if the RSE crossed a line. So the Romulans always meant to enter the war, but they were split. The early entry faction saw their best hope as being a friend of the UFP, who would respect their autonomy while supporting their welfare. They wanted the UFP to win and wanted to win with them. The late entry faction, on the other hand, wanted to leverage the Dominion War not only to downgrade the UFP, but to renegotiate interstellar law in their favor. When faced with annihilation, the UFP would concede to allowing the RSE to deploy WMDs against the Dominion, thereby legitimizing their use and handing back the Romulans’ only possible path to supremacy. This is where the Scimitar class ships came from. The prototype was built in secret, as it was illegal. The Vreenak incident played favorably into the hands of the early alliance faction, and I suspect that pro-alliance people biased the results of the investigation. They would have prevailed politically through the end of the war and afterwards, but the factional lines remained, as did the secret plans and weapons. This is where the coup led by Shinzon but supported by the military came in.
The Romulans are one of my favorite species on Star Trek. They are not stupid and had to know that the Dominion would eventually do to them what they had done to the Cardassians.
I have a theory: Vreenak led the efforts for the non aggression pact with the Dominion because he was part of the old thinking on the Federation and the Klingons. His faction also largely controlled the Praetor. And yet while powerful, were actually rather small. A majority of the Senate and indeed the Military weren't fooled by Dominion overtures and moved their forces into position waiting for Vreenak to die. I've always believed that Senator Cretak was always pro Federation as it suited the interests of the Romulans to be on Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar and Alpha Centauri's good sides and yet she remained patriotic (I also have another theory that she deliberately allowed herself to be accused of treason to throw off Neral, who was definitely anti Federation and owed his rise to Vreenak's faction, even if it risked her life and Ross knew she would've done it for Romulus and be the scapegoat). So when Vreenak died, his faction lost its leader (not giving a damn if it was the Dominion or the Federation) and the despised non aggression pact was gone. Eventually Neral was removed after the war and replaced by Hiren, who supported good relations with the Federation but was not about to go the full way in opening up to them. And it was all thanks to Sisko and Garak getting rid of the hated Vreenak.
I think it played out the way Garak told Sisko it would... that the Tal'Shiar & the Romulan Star Empire believed the recording was authentic. But as for the fleets rapid response... I don't think the Romulans cared for the Dominion unilaterally violating Romulan space to attack the Federation & Klingons. Probably convincing the Romulans even before Vreenak's death that the Dominion had no respect for others... Vreek's death was the green flag... but the racers were already getting in position.
csehszlovakze Actually, they were even before that. It was just that after that incident, the Section 31 puppet (Koval) had a powerful position in the Senate as well.
I've always felt that Starfleet was unintentionally pulling punches. Given how large the federation is there's no way the dominion could've taken and held it with out Gamma Quadrant reinforments add in the size of the Klingon empire and it becomes preposterous. By pulling punches I mean not ramping up new ship production. Not going full warship design. Having several powerful ships with their most capable commanders assigned else where looking at the enterprise e here. It's like they couldn't let go of the diplomatic side.
Yup they played the players.........until their forces were ready. They could claim to be building up arms in case the federation and Klingons invaded them out of desperation while all the while knowing what the ships and soldiers were actually for. I should also point out that being one of the telepathic species like the Vulcans I suspect that it would have been harder for founders to infiltrate their ranks without them knowing. They could have very well let the founders believe they were on their side as well.
Don't forget the Breen - I believe the Breen would have entered the war on the side of the Federation if the Romulans joined the Dominion. I find it interesting they waited until after the Romulans joined the Fed/Kling Alliance until they entered the war. If they had wanted to join - why wait? The Federation was against the ropes prior to the Romulans joining... Let's not for get the Romulan's colloquialism "never turn your back on a Breen" (By Inferno's Light Part 2). I'm glad you brought up the "15 bases" point - it was awfully fast for the Romulans to gather their fleet without the Dominion knowing, develop war plans, and then execute across light years to hit Dominion controlled territory. This, to me (as I'm a student of strategy), is the "tell" that the Romulans were planning an attack all along and were waiting for the right time.
I always liked this episode because Garak was ultimately right in his assessment of Sisko. He understood how the Romulans thought and precisely how to manipulate them into entering the war. And in the end, Sisko had to learn that in order to save the Federation and Alpha Quadrant, it would mean abandoning his principles for the greater good. If the Romulans really had intended to enter the war, Garak pushed all the right buttons to motivate them.
I thought it was obvious that the Romulans would enter either to destroy the Dominion while it was weak from fighting the Federation or to enter and destroy the Federation just as it was being defeated by the Dominion. I think this plan was original created for a Federation/Klingon war which is why they had the ships ready for it. I do think the fleet that they used was the fleet that normally sits on the neutral zone border rather than a fleet that is hiding elsewhere.
Given that the Romulans and the Cardassians don't share a border, the fact they were able to hit 15 Cardassian sites in less than one day implies the Romulans already had ships ready and waiting for an attack on all 15 bases. The Romulans most likely would have waited until the Federation and Klingons had lost most of their ships, and then would have cleaned house while the Founders "alliance" were over-extended, deep into Federation / Klingon territory, with both sides heavily weakened and their supply lines extended. I agree that watching and waiting means that the Romulans would have the tactical advantage of having learnt how the Jem'Hadar, the Cardassians and the Breen fight.
I actually believe that the Romulans always intended to join the Fed-Klingon alliance. They were simply waiting for it to be advantageous for them to enter. Watching the Fed-Klingon Alliance fall would almost certainly mean they'd be next. I don't believe the Dominion would allow them to exist regardless of how great the diplomacy between the two powers could be. It would always end up in some form of subjection, and being under the thumb of the Dominion. Also, a victorious dominion almost certainly have major reinforcements from the Gamma quadrant. Even without those forces due to the collapse of the Wormhole or Space Jesus stopping it.....The Dominion would be entrenched and building up their forces with the spoils of war of nearly two full Quadrants. The Romulan knew their hand, they just had to decide how to best play the game. This was ultimately a decision sealed when the founders fortified the Wormhole's strength, and/or Sisko sent the Romulans packing when their single warbird could have prevented all this bloodshed by destroying the entrance.
The problem with the Star Trek Maps is they dont account for space being 3 dimensional. The map which places the Federation between Cardassian and Romulan space is from one `vertical` vantage point only. A few degrees higher or lower and you could easily have Romulan space being above or below Federation space and directly bordering the Cardassians. Which is why a 3D map of the Star Trek Galaxy would be extremely useful.
This is pretty similar to what I've always thought, I even though that it was suggested that the Romulan's really were just bidding their time, always planning to strike but were just waiting till the Dominion was weak enough, maybe even waiting to rebuild their fleets. Even without them, the Federation and Klingons were doing a decent job of fighting back. While they were losing most of the time, they were performing strategic victories. Most likely, and it would go with their MO, the Romulans were waiting for the Federation to get far enough along, to defeat enough of the Dominion (hell, the may even have been performing their own covert ops to help out) to get in and move. OR...they may have been waiting for the Dominion to devastate both the Klingon and Federation fleets to enough of an extent that they could just swoop in, save the Alpha Quadrant with the remains of the other fleets, then while their are there, take over both the Federation and Klingon Empire. Even the Senator's reaction to what Sisko states...he knows he's right, and you can tell Romulus has done the math. With his death, Romulus probable figured close enough.
I think that the Romulans knew that Vreenak had been assassinated and that is what proved to the Star Empire that the Federation was ready to do what it took to win the war. Therefore they agreed to ally themselves on the winning side.
They are far more interesting and complex species than any of the others. Greed war logic. Romulans had a more complex emotion and fits in more with what makes Star Trek great. They fought with their minds. One of my favorite TNG is that everyone was going to a planet to find something and nearly went to war over a planet. The people who created all the races in the galaxy showed up in a video, and most were mad. It was the Romulans who contacted Picard offering hope.
I think ultimately the Romulans asked themselves "Who do we prefer as a neighbor? the naive, easily tricked and relatively passive federation? or a hyper authoritarian empire with legions of slave soldiers?". I find it very unlikely they would accept a dominion victory as that would leave them by themselves with no one to fight their battles for them.
It makes sense that the Romulans are the weakest of the major powers, they where a breakaway group of the Vulcans who settled another world, one of multiple, most of which failed, and they where only a dozen generations removed from Vulcan. With only the Romulans themselves running things in the empire and there being multiple species they've conquered by sheer virtue of the size of their empire, what you have is a small elite of Vulcans controlling the government and military of an otherwise very diverse nation. This inherently necessitates an authoritarian police state because every Romulan who isn't holding the line is a liability due to the sheer demographic imbalance between the Romulans and their vassal races. Quite literally the problems of Rome but brought up to the Nth degree as there is no assimilating into Romulan culture for non-Romulans within the empire. They aren't just a paper tiger, they're always on the brink by their very nature, which is why subterfuge would be their primary weapon. Why waste lives they can't afford to lose fighting the Federation and the Klingons when both can fight each other?
This in a way also explains their staple warship, the D'Deridex class Warbird. She's big, about twice the size of a Galaxy Class and armed to the absolute teeth, but just how many of these ships do they even have? To me, the D'Deridex is intended to intimidate the non-Romulan populace and the Empire's enemies into leaving them alone and the emphasis on stealth and subterfuge means they could conceal the number of Warbirds they actually have to make their fleet seem much bigger. The Romulan military in general may not be that big or at least the forces they can spare aren't given that they were intending to invaded and hold Vulcan with only six thousand ground troops, with a single Warbird for support. Maybe Romulan marines are the most elite hardened shocktroops in the galaxy, but six thousand men to hold down an entire planet with a population in the billions is pretty ambitious.
I imagine their military is a bit of a glass cannon and very powerful when they launch an attack due to their nature of weakening others from within and being able to launch stealth attacks but isn’t as large as the Feds or KDF so losses are more keenly felt when they start to add up over a protracted conflict.
I would be very interested to see more about the Romulans (and Klingons for that matter) and just how things were going, daily life of a nobody, the actual workings of the military, mundane stuff like that to get a better sense of who the Federation is dealing with.
From Romulan point of view keeping Federation at winning side is better and safer. UFP is known foe for them, they knew almost all about tactics, firepower, defences etc.
seems pretty likely romulus would have been sitting back waiting for starfleet to come begging for aid, they already extracted a rather large price for what was probably not a cutting edge cloaking device so waiting till the federation, bloodied, came to them for help would let them extract the maximum price for the least amount of casualties on their part, though everything is relative since the writers might not have been even thinking that way
In the past week, I've watched a number of Lore vids, and found them to be a mixed bag, but this was definitely one of the better ones. Very interesting analysis which deepened my understanding both of "In The Pale Moonlight" and the Dominion War in general.
I think this theory has a lot of merit and it is basically my head canon on Romulan doctrine leading up to their entry into the Dominion War. If I could suggest something that might add weight to your theory. The death of Vreenak might have actually been useful to the Romulans in that it gave them something the Dominion hadn't really provided up to this point... a Casus Belli. If this really is a big chess game from the Romulans then they probably would prefer this not LOOK like a chess game and the apparent assassination of a Senator gives them a legitimate cause for war that makes sense to all the other powers. They may have been close to declaring war anyway, if they were already in position to attack so many positions on the Cardassian border. Ironically, even if whatever is left of the Tal Shiar did discover Sisko's plan, they might keep it quiet for now if that casus belli fights into the Star Empire's overall strategy. If the war went badly, then they could "discover" this information as a way to make nice with the Dominion and frame the Federation as a villain.
I agree with this theory as well, and your ideas too, but I have a small nitpick I have to make: the Romulans aren't playing CHESS, they're playing GO, which is a somewhat similar bit also very different type of strategy that usually has a LOT fewer casualties for them
@@ilovejettrooper5922 "GO" is an Asian strategy game, Chinese in origin I think. I strongly recommend you look it up, as successful military strategies are often compared to & sometimes based off it
The Romulans may have been assessing their enemy, indeed, because they may have had the most effective weapon and chose not to use it. Romulan vessels are powered by a controlled singularity, rather than a matter/anti-matter engine. A Remote controlled vessel with such an engine would make the most powerful drone weapon in space, especially a cloaked one. It could be moved to intercept specific enemy fleets or target vessels (Clone factories), or, if necessary, once perfectly sure they had a target of a founder's home world, just such a planet. A singularity, a black hole, would swallow their enemy in one fell swoop... but might leave a considerable area of space unsafe to travel thru for a very long time... possibly forever if it grew large enough. A doomsday weapon, perhaps....
I like this theory and it fits with what we know of the romulans. I would like to point out that bashir and his genetically enhanced friends predicted that the romulans would join the war in a few years, and also that they only joinned the war after the wormhole was secured, by the prophets, and after the dominion proved that they would interfeer in the affairs of neutral governments, like the ferengui.
Your theory makes a lot of sense. I think they were waiting for either the Federation or Klingons (or both) to suffer near mortal blows before entering the fray. They knew they couldn’t beat the Dominion alone but they wanted at least one of their old foes to be so weakened that they could swoop in and finish them off without fear of an attack from the other who had been so weakened by the war that they could do nothing about it. Very Romulan indeed.
I believe there is a great deal of wisdom in this analysis. Especially allowing themselves a front row seat for how the Dominion operated, at the expense of allowing them access to their territory. It is invaluable intelligence, given the Romulans undoubtedly knew the war would reach them eventually. When you get right down to it, for the Romulans it always seemed they were far more interested in maintaining the devils they knew - the Federation and Klingons - versus the unknown quantity the Dominion clearly represented.
Actually, this makes a lot of sense, especially if you think about the part regarding the romulans allowing the dominion to use their space. The federation has very little intelligence assets amongst the dominion. But where are they likely to have focused their largest intelligence and espionage efforts and with a great deal of success, both with section 31 and vanilla Starfleet intelligence? The romulan star empire. Even before joint Cardassian-dominion counter-intelligence efforts, the federation would probably have had a lot more success in creating entire spy networks in romulan space than in cardassian space, even given the tal shiar's reputation. Before the dominion appeared on stage as well as the Borg, after the khitomer accords the federation would view the most likely enemy they would end up fighting the next major war against as being the romulans. The dominion does not have cloaking devices (not using them on combat ships anyway), so monitoring their passage is easy for the romulans, and probably was not even considered a secret by the romulans, making it so patterns and trends in dominion deployment through that region of space easy to detect, even if federation spies in romulan space are unable to give early warning. It does give the dominion an advantage due to creating a larger front for the federation to have to cover among other things, but the federation already had that region of space under close observation, so it would be easy to detect build ups of dominion forces. At the same time, what do you think the likelihood is that every dominion ship down to the most insignificant craft is being stalked the entire time by at least one cloaked romulan ship as it passes through their space? The romulans had a reputation for paranoia, and it would be somewhat similar to what the US's subs do with Russian nuclear subs on earth today. So yes, I think this is a highly plausible and possibly even likely theory.
I think one thing to add would be the Romulan obsession with being surrounded and outnumbered. They are constantly trying to reunite with Vulcan, and that may be their official solution to that issue. They see that the UFP is made up of many planets with vast populations, and that gives them an edge in almost every conflict. While the Klingons are only one species, they tend to have an unusually large portion of their population focused on combat related careers to offset that issue. By focusing on stealth and espionage the Romulans can offset their natural disadvantages. Their ultimate solution seems to be to reunite their entire species to finally give them the edge to stand out as a true rival to all the other superpowers.
Very good points. I'd further argue that the very next day after attacking the Dominion the second thing the Romulans would do is present 5,000 (subtly flawed) cloaking devices to the UFP along with a proposal to drop the prohibition of Starfleet using or developing cloaking tech for the duration of joint hostilities providing they work together to outfit at least one whole fleet with fullon phasing cloaks. As you argue and despite appearances Romulus would be way more afraid of the Dominion anyway. Only as a distant second would they want to weaken the Klingons relative position which a less hardline Star Empire might accomplish through their delayed entry into the war and better diplomatic ties with the UFP post conflict.
Here's my beef: According to the episode, the Dominion use Romulan space as a "shield" to strike at federation targets. *looks at the map you provided* Were in the high holy hell is this taking place? The Romulans are on the other side of Federation space, and neither they nor the Klingons share a border with the Cardassians or Bajorans, or any other Dominion-held territory... Unless the Dominion had taken over all the space north orsouth of, say, that 3rd or 4th ring? Hell, it also bugged me when everyone goes on about the "Alpha Quadrant" when the Romulans, Klingons, and over 50% of Federation space are in the BETA quadrant.... but mweh.
The theory is that the 2D map is incorrect and that the Klingons and Romulans border the Cardassians (or are much closer, at least) because their territory wraps over/under the federation's. The Galaxy is a 1,000 light years thick, so it makes no sense to assume one territory extends from top to bottom.
I hate all the maps we have because they are all two dimensional. Space is three dimensional and I suspect that the Cardassian Union was situated “above” or “below” the other major powers. This would allow them to all border each other.
I ignore the maps because how can you make a 2d map of 3d space. But I do understand. As far as I remember, ROmulans never bordered Cardassia, and I jsut imagine Romulans illegally travel into Federation or Klingon space to interact with them.
Romulans being less of a threat than they try to project themselves as puts the D'deridex class ships in a new light - they're quite literally overcompensating with a gigantic monster of a ship when there's very little actual muscle behind it.
ESPECIALLY in shielding and armor against enemy fire too apparently. As the other powers CONSTANTLY had to back them up. Even when they combined a Romulan Armada with ones from the other powers
The original design of the Warbird was a carrier. That was why there is an open space in the middle. But by what we saw in the movie, their fleet as mainly based on their battlecruiser. They are not a well rounded military and are extremely vulnerable. I was disappointed that they did not bring out the Romulan bird of Prey and emphasize that the Bird of prey is a Romulan design and the Klingons only borrowed it.
@@slewone4905 That's all the down to writing. The Klingons were always more popular even back in the original series so that's who got more screen time. More Screen time equals better writing, better ships, more ships, weapons etc... but always inferior to the federation. The federation (gene's idealistic US socialist utopia in space) must win at all cost or they wouldn't have a show. Andromeda did it better in that regard. The Common Wealth was originally supposed to be the federation only in a collapsed apocalyptic state with it being on the receiving end of more powerful advanced intergalactic powers.
@@Not-Ap I know it was practical for them to call the Klingon bird of Prey , when they did search of Spock , they didn't bother changing the name when the rewritten the script from Klingons stealing a Romulan vessel. It feels still wrong, since There is less glory when you are hiding from your enemy, though. But the vessel was so beautiful done, people stuck to it. It also felt wrong when the ROmulans only use Warbirds. These are sneaky people who spy on people. They wouldn't waste such a large ship to do that, when a cloaked scout can still do the job. Risk thousands of lives and an over price ship, or a cheap vessel with tens or hundreds on it.
1. There is a war between the Romulans and Klingons sometime between the original series and TNG. 2. What's a Federation ship ? The Enterprise D has a Klingon aristocrat at tactical. The Voyager has a Klingon chief engineer My point is it would be easy to reflag federation ships as Klingon.
I always figured that the Romulans knew that something was fishy with Vreenak's death and they're figuring that the federation might've something to do with that. The Romulans wouldn't be shocked of such duplicity but rather gain some weird kind of respect for what the federation can do if pressed. And whatever happened, for Romulans wouldn't have the complete picture, the federation's "rogue" intelligence service didn't have anything to do with that.
Hey, its an actual word.. Check it out.. if you dont like it, i understand..seems petty but you do you boo! Youll be watching half my stuff on a lot of videos :p
@@LoreReloaded "Non-standard" is another way of saying it's incorrectly used so much that scholars had to give in and give it a tiny bit of legitimacy-that doesn't make it a real word any more than, "gotta" or "all the sudden" are correct. I'm not sure what you mean with that last sentence. Are you saying other UA-cam channels present your information/theories as their own?
@@jonsnowight9510 if it has partial legitimacy doesnt that mean its .. atleast a bit legit? You stopped watching for that word, which is fine.. i use it ever so often so you may miss a few others :p
Yeah maybe a Romulan pro Fed/Klingon version of sec 31 wanted and was working to get their side in against the Dominion.. then they figured out Sickos plan and moved, unknowingly, by anyone to help make that happen.. it's not TOO farfetched not ALL then weren't having the same arguments Dax and Sisko had about letting hostile militaries with shady agendas just conduct whole battles in their Territory and around
I see what you're saying, and that is exactly what the US did in both world wars. They held back and waited until they could wait no longer, then they steamrolled the enemy (kind of).
This theory defo explains why when they entered the war they had such a successful assault so quickly. I agree. But have one question. After entering the war and with the fed agent at the top of d romulan government, why didn’t they allow starfleet use/create a cloking device.
That would be up to the Senate and it’s highly unlikely that they’d allow the Federation (a likely post war rival) to use such a strategically powerful device across its fleet. They were initially so successful because the Dominion forces were tied up fighting the Federation and Klingons. Strategically, the Romulans stabbed the Dominion in the back. Once the Dominion was able to shift forces to fight the Romulans, the Romulans adopted a defensive posture and were VERY reluctant to invade Cardassian territory. It’s one thing to attack lightly defended targets, it’s another thing to attack heavily fortified positions. We know the Romulans “struck” 15 bases, we don’t know if they destroyed them. Likely, these were quick, hit and run attacks to knock the Dominion off balance right at the start of the conflict.
I see 2 problems. 1/ The cloaking device was lost when the first Defiant was destroyed. 2/ I think there are just a few too many what if’s. I agree the Romulans could have been sitting back and gathering inelegance and waiting to pick there moment. The only fact you forgot is their arrogance. They believe in their own superiority and it is the major flaw. I think their arrogance is why they entered the war earlier. I think that Dax’s musings that it would be easy to sweep in and pick up the pieces is more believable.
I wonder why neither the Klingons nor the Romulans started equipping Starfleet ships with cloaking devices during the the war. It’s not like Starfleet didn’t already have one to study, so what’s a few hundred more? It would have allowed fleet movements like gathering for the push at Chin’Toka etc easier as the Dominion wouldn’t be able to monitor their ships as easily. And if it came to it one Starfleet ship and one Klingon or Romulan ship could do that ‘play dead’ tactic we saw with the Defiant and the Rotarran.
It might be compatibility. Remember , unless the ship was specifically design for cloaking, they would leave an ion trail. The ship may not have enough power for a state of the art cloaking device. THe Defiance was overpowered so they might be the exception.
You forgot that the Romulan Senate was not united. Surely there were many senators who wanted to join the war on the side of the Federation. But at the time, apparently Vreenak, had the greatest influence as a close adviser to Proconsul Neral, and architect of a non-aggression pact between the Romulan Star Empire and the Dominion. Removing Vreenak changed that, Garak knew it (even though the fake record plan didn't work).
I believe the Romulans wanted the Dominion to defeat the federation-Klingon alliance, which would leave a severely weakened Dominion in control of the Alpha Quadrant. The Romulans simply would then have to destroy the wormhole, cutting off Dominion reinforcements, and then wage war against a severely weakened Dominion force. I believe the Romulans would have a very good chance of defeating them, leaving them in complete control of the Alpha Quadrant
Yes, but after the defeat of the federation, the Dominion would control it, at which the Romulans would immediately attack to cut off reinforcements and defeat a weakened Dominion which just defeated the Federation-Klingon alliance
@@alexe606 There were doing that to protect Bajor so there would stop them from coming through otherwise there could have overran DS9 at anytime there wanted
I think the logistics of the Romulan Empire was completely different from that of the Klingons or Federation. The latter rely on antimatter storage. This requires a long logistical tail and a large industrial body. Artificial quantum singularities, once a technological possibility, can convert any mass into usable energy. A Romulan ship can turn anything from asteroids, to gas giant atmosphere, to interstellar hydrogen into warp plasma. Replicators would fulfill any material need, severing the last need for connection to the Empire. Once you can power your ship with an AQS, it becomes its own break-away society. IMHO, this is why the Tal Shiar is so draconian, as a single AQS powered ship could decide to escape to anywhere and start its own, new Romulan Empire. Its range would be basically infinite: it could run off interstellar gas from the bussard collectors or belly-up to any kuiper belt object or oort-cloud comet and beam all the mass it needs for months or years of warp 9 travel into the event horizon of an AQS; it need simply reshape that horizon to retrieve that mass in the form of energy. So, what keeps all captains and crews attached to the empire? Fear and suspicion. What else? This would indicate a fragile but brittle truce between those that control the empire --the senate-- and those that control the ships. The balance of power would be complex. To that extent, some pretext would be required to convince the Romulan Navy that a declaration of war with the Dominion was worth honoring or acting on. I think the Senate was quite willing to accept the sabotage of Vreenax' ship as being exactly what it looked like, without looking too deeply into it: it would give members of the Senate an excuse to order around the navy and getting rid of rivals and dissidents.
I'm really wondering if Romulan bias is the only reason Garak/Sisko's plan worked. Romulans are constantly scheming and plotting, so they assume everyone else is doing the same - something referenced throughout TNG. I think that had they looked at all the evidence objectively, they would have found evidence in the computer's logs that the senator visited DS9, and that the imperfections in the recording weren't consistent with physical damage to the rod. However, the Romulans are inherently mistrustful. They didn't trust the Dominion to start with and were only acting in their own self interest for as long as it served them. When they saw the "betrayal" they jumped at it without considering the possibility that it was a fake. It's interesting. Had the same maneuver been attempted on some other species, it would have backfired spectacularly - but against the Romulans it's the perfect weapon.
Interesting that yous say that the Romulans may of had cloaked fleets ready to save the day. This may be an example: #InfernoLights
ua-cam.com/video/pIcQ4Gm9GSM/v-deo.html
If they DID they shoulda done something. All they had to do was sucker a large amount of enemy troops into their territory.. it's been PERFECT for a trap if they was ALWAYS gonna turn on the Dominion
@@robertagu5533 they were most likely biding their time before joining with the likely winner.
Oooooo
@@robertagu5533 In a situation like that it is going to be about timing.
The timing wasn't right. If Lore Reloaded is right, the best strategy would be to strike JUST as the Dominion was achieving victory. The Dominion would likely have dedicated nearly all of their forces and left their core systems exposed. Then the Dominion fleet is caught between two hostile forces, cut off from resupply, and effectively unable to retreat to friendly territory. Plus they will have taken losses which will put them in an even worse position. THEN you also have all the other powers of the quadrant very, very grateful to you for saving the day, effectively meaning they are going to support your foreign policy down the road.
Imo it's similar to Klingon houses. Various sub groups who have their own fleet. The Praetor in charge of the main fleet, Tal Shiar 2nd largest, and the others.
Vreenak in his ship while returning to Romulus: [thinking to himself] "This falsified cardassian data rod proves how weakened and desperate they are, the time has come to join the fight on their side. Well, captain Sisko, I guess you got what you wanted, even if it didn't happen the way you expected. I look forward to establishing my office at DS9 whi-" *BOOOM*
That would have been an amazing final scene to see.
This is the funniest thing I’ve read all day.
😂
In a pale moonlight is one of the best star trek episodes ever
I agree, it shows Capt. Sisko to be an even more nuanced person. It also shows that war isn't all tea and medals, it's sacrifice and devastation on both sides.
I can live with it...I CAN live with it...
@@antbric6515 that's just a brilliant ending. I loved it so much
@@ladythalia227
Computer...erase that entire personal log.
In my opinion it's the best episode.
Garek is the best character on DS9.
It may be narrated by Sissko and from his perspective but it's all about Garek.
The Romulans have never had the numbers to win a slugging match against Starfleet or the Klingons. Props to them for playing the long and smart game. It is highly unlikely that the Imperial Navy would have been able to mount 15 separate assaults on Dominion bases immediately after entering the war. The assets to carry out those operations and the plans to do so would have taken weeks if not months to gather and coordinate. No, they were already in place and ready.
I think the 24th century Romulans were significantly stronger than the 23rd or 22nd century Romulans who had been defeated by Earth in the Earth-Romulan war. I think they grew tremendously in strength during the 50 years they had little interaction with the Federation, as mentioned in TNG episode, The Neutral Zone. The fact that the Romulans could attack a Klingon colony, that they can interfere in the Klingon civil war between Gowron and the Duras clan, without touching off a war which they would lose, supports that. They certainly have much more impressive ships, like the D'deridex class.
@xc5647321 xc5647321
They were fighting the Borg. When the Romulans were being reintroduced on TNG, the intention was to show them as being more powerful than Starfleet, with giant warbirds, then having the Borg destroy them easily.
Fortunately, the writers of TNG backpedalled from this original idea.
15 assaults on bases not near the frontlines? It wouldn’t take that many ships. Perhaps a few each base. It was never specified how important or well defended these bases were, especially considering the historically cordial relations between Romulus and Cardassia. I would agree they had ships there ready to spring into action. It just didn’t take fleets of hundreds of ships to do so. These were merely outposts.
Romulans: We will be the greatest Galactic superpower after the Dominion War.
JJ Abrams: I'm about to end these people's whole careers.
I suspect Garak conspired with the Tal Shiar to assassinate Vreenak. That's the real reason he had faith the rod would pass inspection after the explosion he'd already made arrangements with Koval
Really? That spin a whole new prospective In The Pale Moonlight
With the help of Section 31.
Did you forget that the Romulans and Remans were building Scimitar class ships too? Or in the process of building them. Only one got built before the war was over, but a ship of that size and with that much firepower doesn't get built overnight. They had planned them probably from their loss at the Founder's home world. My guess is that the Romulans were holding back so they could focus on building several Scimitar ships. Each one fitted with a perfect cloaks, enough conventional firepower to match an entire attack wing, and with a thaleron radiation weapon that was capable to wiping out all life on a planet. After the War with the Dominion, whoever was the victor would quickly be at the mercy of a fleet of Scimitar ships. All a Scimitar ship had to do was stroll up to a Dominion/Federation/Klingon planet, de-cloak, fire the thaleron weapon, and leave. With their perfect cloak no one would see them coming and no one would know where they left to.
It was stated in nemesis that the scimitar was built by the reman rebellion, probably as the only ship in its class. It was a specialist superweapon, specifically designed to crush the federation, or the Romulans if necessary.
@@veryanonymous3630 Indeed but what he proposes would be awesome nonetheless.
Senator: your data rod is fake and for that reason im out.
Sisko: damn
Garak: is that your final answer?
@Jessica The Azu The rod may be fake, but the gel packs are not.
What gel packs?
Great analysis. I agree that Garak always had the "back up plan" as his plan A all along. The holo recording needed to look as authentic as possible but the rod as you say was impossible to get. That bio mimetic gel was previously mentioned on the show and obviously had black market value. This episode is some good Fn Trek!!
Oh and "Irregardless" should just be regardless shouldn't it?
Romulan fleets hiding under cloak, waiting to spring a "Here comes the cavalry" trap on the Dominion makes perfect sense.
spiritofthewolf15x they just appear and shout SUPRISE MOTHAFUCKA over all channels 😂 before blasting them to hell
And the Winged Huss- I mean, Cloaked Warbirds arrived!
@@brandonrice4035 XD nice (and now i need to go listen to some sabaton because you just made a song stick in my head)
spiritofthewolf15x too easy
But the defiant was detected while cloaked if memory serves which would lead me to think that the cloaking tech was useless which is why they needed to steal an enemy ship to get into enemy territory idk might be the excuse I need to justify a rewatch
I believe the Romulans knew the Federation had faked the recording, but were impressed enough by the Federation's treachery that it inspired them to abandon their neutrality. Such an action would signal to them that they weren't dealing with a 'weak' Federation anymore, but rather a new, battle-hardened faction willing to do whatever it took to win.
That strikes me as a pretty fair assessment. The Federation has never really spoken the same language as the Romulans. They negotiate with Klingons in the language of honor, and even though they have very different views on what actions are honorable, there is enough congruence for them to mostly get along in their alliance. But Romulans speak the language of ruthless political maneuver and intrigue, which is pretty much indecipherable to the Federation. Between them, Sisko and Garak (mostly Garak) managed to propose an alliance in terms that made sense to the Romulans.
Federation did you just take evidence and assassinate our senator? You little scamp! Ali right we’ll join in.
I don't think so. to assassinate a senator in an attempt to frame a common enemy is really egregious and would warrant a response. Especially from an enemy like the Federation that they had deep mistrust for. The only way that could work if there were people in Romulan intelligence who suppressed the truth.
It sounds to me like the Romulans were just waiting for an "excuse" to enter the war. Maybe that's why they didn't look too hard at Vreenak's death...
and I don’t believe that Garak ever contacted his friends on Cardassia. He decided to assassinate Vreenak as soon as Sisko first came to him
@@charleshendren3961 Garak always has been overly eager to act on his own, out of all the Obsidian Order, he's the most individual.
My theory is that the Romulans planned to enter the war all along… they just wanted the Federation and Klingons to get beat up as much as possible before they acted so that they would have a stronger negotiating position once the war was over. I mean look how quickly they attacked after Vreenaks ship was destroyed. Even Vreenak himself was likely going to use the data rod as justification to join the alliance… he just would have used as a blackmail or bargaining chip against the Federation and Sisko later on
@@charleshendren3961I always viewed it as the Romulans planned to enter if they felt they could tip the scales, and only after all parties had exhausted themselves sufficiently. This would give them the primary position in both quadrants. They were looking for an opportunity to spoil it for everyone.
I kind of suspect that they were waiting for their assistance to be asked for when the alliance was desperate and would be able to negotiate terms for political concessions that would benefit solely them both during and after the war. The senator did seem to start to agree with Sisko and I’m wondering that that was part of their plan had Sisko not been deceiving them the senate would more formally (if secretly) offer their allegiance to the alliance... for a price. If Sisko hadn’t made the effort to arrange the meeting then they could have done much as what was theorised in this video to cover that possibility. However the deception pushed them into joining out of seeming self preservation and vengeance likely saving starfleet and (perhaps unknowingly) the klingon empire from having to pay any cost (except their integrity).
seems really likely, the romulans charged starfleet a hell of a lot for that single cloaking device and were waiting for the federation to come to them and ask for aid letting them ask for territory and technology
The Senator was more likely trying to use that information to increase his influence to possibly reach procouncil.
German spy planes flying over England: It looks like the allies are amassing a large invasion force bound for caleigh!
George Patton popping out of a vent: IT’S A FAAAAAAAAAKE.
It's Regardless.. trying to defend "irregardless" is equivalent to people using the word "literally" as an exaggeration rather than its literal definition.
That being awesome channel and video
Romulans were probably proud and impressed a Federation officer would do something so dastardly to give them the reason to attack.
Them having cloaked fleets just near by kind of makes sense considering how they showed up to the worm hole to support the Klingons and Federation right after the Cardassians joined the Dominion. Honestly I wish they had used the Romulans more because they didn't really get to do much. In the final battle the Romulan command ship was destroyed so they wouldn't have to include a Romulan officer talking with the leaders of the Klingons and Federation. They effectively just became more ships.
Then again I think it was just a plot line that got lost along the way like the Jem'hadar Alphas vs Gammas, the Romulan officer who was operating the Defiant's cloak, and any time the amount of white was limited.
Every time Lore says "irregardless" I die a little inside
Ive already made the promise to stop the moment a live video can go its initialy 48 hours with out anyone noting it.. you are the fourth in under 12 alas :(
Lore Reloaded So you do it on purpose? That's a powerful move to make.
@@joshuab3918 i use a word that is now recognized as legitimate? Yes..yes i do.. its a controversial move.. i know
You should take a drink every time he does it. Let us know how that works out if you do.
@@LoreReloaded Oh wow I didn't realize I wasn't the only one >_<
It's not meant as a jab. It was drilled into me by every English teacher since the 6th grade to not use it, so whenever I hear it I flash back to freshman year HS English
I would have made the same choices as Sisko. He knew that Star Fleet was not ready to fight a war in the “down and dirty” style that was needed to win and allow the Federation planets to remain free. War is not a nice and clean business. If you are going to enter into a war you must fight it to win as quickly as possible. Save lives by fighting with the gloves off.
I always thought the Romulans were going to enter the war on the side of the Alpha Quadrant, but were just waiting for the right time(the Dominion was never going to let them go unpunished), but Sisko's actions in "The Pale Moonlight" bought their plans forward, which clearly they were prepared for(15 bases? Not a reaction given the tactics we have seen from them). Your theory makes a lot of sense.
They may have also spent the intervening time building up their fleet (and personnel) _as quickly as possible,_ they did seem to have a bunch of new ship types in the post war period - maybe they were used during the war, but were always hidden behind a D'deridex in the archival footage.
After the Talshiar fleet was wiped out (and observing the Defiant in action) they may have switched to producing smaller more nimble ships to counter the Bugships and had fleet yards working round the clock on the new designs, while using their current inventory of D'deridex as the backbone of the fleet - maybe with some hasty upgrades [imagine what Starfleet could've accomplished if they had had as much lead to time that war was imminent and no delusions as to the scale - Galaxy's getting proper war refitting that used _all_ the space, while every other shipyard pumps out Defiants].
Basically use the time to fully mobilise and*re-equip* for the upcoming war.
It makes sense for the romulans to use up their existing fleet of D'Deridex class vessels in any case- with their singularity drives there was no real chance of major upgrades to the power generation capabilities of those ships to mount newer technologies, and it wouldn't be easy to decommission a warbird once it reached the end of its designed lifespan for fear of leaving a small black hole in one of your major shipbuilding facilities... all of this suggests that the D'Deridex class warbird, and any other ships using the same power source, were expected to be used to the point of destruction
They had the new Warbids and the Scimitar being developed for the Dominion war. The problem with Romulans are their ships are inefficient. Their main vessels are battlecruisers because They make up their technological deficiency with their knowledge on Gravity which allow them to make their singularity to provide greater energy to power their less efficient vessels. Their bird of prey arent even seen. And yes, the Bird of Prey is originally an Romulan design that was given and improved by the Klingon with the cloaking device in exchange in helping improve Romulan warp drives.
Romulans are the best characters on ST! Always plotting and scheming but have might to back it up.
Question Lore Reloaded, if you don't mind. Had Nero turned the Narada over to the Romulan Star Empire, how would it effect the Kelvin Timeline both in short and long term?
Always have loved LOVED the Romulan ship designs.. Shame they weren't up to scratch uptill many mannnny years later
So I will learn to live with it.
Because I can live with it...
I _can_ live with it.
Which is why he's my favorite Trek captain. He'll do things the others can't or won't if they are necessary
lol this plan is almost how the United States looked in the two world wars.
Except we DIDN'T have large amounts of powerful military forces IMMEDIATELY in place and ready to IMMEDIATELY attack a lot of enemy forces IMMEDIATELY on joining either war though. Sure we had initial mass numbers could gather in a hurry BUT they were far from elite units, least initially.
@@robertagu5533 Correction World War I, the US was ready in July 1917, within 3 months of April 6th 1917 declaration of war, the American Expeditionary Force (AEF) under General John Pershing began combat in Europe. The US thanks to the assistance of former President Theodore Roosevelt had undergone a "preparedness movement" prior to war, drilling and arming an army years before it was to see combat.
@@time391 Yes, there is strong evidence that America (Government) was always willing to join the war from the very start, but the American people had no stomach for the war, and the sinking of the Lusitania was used as an excuse to rile the people up, a battle cry so to speak.
The Romulan Star Empire: the Arsenal of Democracy?
I was about to say the same thing. Good ol USA, shows up late and takes all the credit.
I agree with your assertion here. The Romulan MO is intelligence and subterfuge. it wouldn't be shocking if the operation from the Tal Shiar and Obsidian order was calculated to gain insight or intentionally weaken the Cardassian position. If they wipe out the Obsidian Order, it's to their benefit. If this organization had been absorbed into Dominion intelligence, it could've been disastrous for everyone in the Alpha and Beta quadrants with what they knew. So they hedge their bets, get free intelligence, and take out a rival power's strongest card. Then let the other two stronger military powers slug it out with them, learn more, and come in later when they had a reasonable chance of tipping the scale to the devils they can control. Sure, it was a resource hit, but it played out to their advantage long term.
I kinda had the feeling the Romulans were gathering intelligence on Dominion tactics. Another thought on that, I also think the Romulans had ships follow Dominion fleets when they went into battle and also had some enter Cardassian space to gather intelligence on the Dominion that way.
2:45 - For some reason, I just imagined a grizzled Tal’Shiar veteran seeing an image of Dominion forces, and then muttering “I fear no man, no government, no covert intelligence arm... but that... that chills my green blood to the core...” xD
There is another option besides being a paper tiger: They're a straight reluctant one. Dictatorial regimes almost never risk existential conflict unless directly attacked if they have strong potential for rebellion at home. So maybe they ARE weaker than they look, but also why take unnecessary risks
I think the simple portrayal is that the Romulans were just opportunist fence-sitters, playing both sides so that they'd not truly lose regardless of who won. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the view of some Trek writers. There is the possibility that, even if the Romulans were sitting cloaked in readiness to aid the Federation/Klingons, they were also sitting in readiness to help the Dominion. But, as the video points out, the only side that offered the Romulans the chance to come out as "heroes" and thus benefitting their position was to help the Federation in their time of need.
Not every time, in klingon civil war between Duras and Gowron, the Romulans are on Duras side earlier than Federation supporting Gowron.
I always figured the romulans holding out of the war made no sense but this nails it!
I always assumed the Romulans are the ones that gave Garak the info about the Senator making the trip. The Romulan opposition to the Senator set him up.
There's an old expression; Never turn your back to a Romulan
I'm not sure I buy that the Romulans were always ready to be Big Damn Heroes at the 11th Hour but I think they knew what Sisko knew that once the Federation and Klingons were taken care of, the Romulans would be next on the chopping block.
It is also possible that the Romulans would discover the forgery, but, it being in their better interests to change sides, accused the Dominion anyway believing, as Sisko himself did, that there were plans of this nature against them. Further, it might have suited the ambitions of a number of factions to have this Senator eliminated. Romulans are Romulans and will conspire against one another as fast as they do against their enemies.
Sisko's monologue at the time end of the episode efficively implied that the Romulans always planned to strike against the Dominion. Launching a massive attack all across the border against 15 bases literally moments after the declaration of war meant that the Romulan fleets were already mobilized, strategy already set, and specific battle plans already in place. All forces were just waiting for a single word from Romulus.
You seem to have forgotten that in the earlier episode "The die is cast," the Romulans and the Cardassians teamed up and collected a large war fleet to do a pre-emptive strike on the Founders' home planet. But the plan failed, their fleet was ambushed and destroyed. Both the Romulans and the Cardassians lost a major part of their armies in that episode, and neither were in shape to continu the war against the dominion. So the Romulans signed the non-aggresion pact with the Dominion.
Except they have a ton of ships later somehow..
You have no idea how complex the Rihannsu Imperium (Romulan Star Empire) really is, structurally: not only is their government essentially a true republic bolstered by a secret police that's almost second-to-none and an extremely deadly starfleet at that, but they've got elements of their administration that largely would resemble essentially a sort of Austrian Empire set into not only the 24th Century AD and also adding in a very baffling administrative structure, including a monarch, hence a regal family line, and a true republic, for in the last days of the Austrian Empire they actually had elected legislatures; problem they had was major fist-fights among their senators whenever they tried to pass any legislation... and they too have something of a feudal structure.
They, psychologically, have a similar home-governance structure to what the Klingons and/or Lyrans have, a downright feudal society but advanced spacefaring technology all mixed together; how'd this develop? Very simple: they had to cling together as a society because they were basically a breakaway colony system from Vulcan due to ideological conflicts- that plays a huge part in classic Romulan Paranoia- which's a survival trait on their part, as is the same with anyone who's suffered abuse come to think of it- and also plays into with their desire to reunify with Vulcan as a single people- they can and would easily win in a war with their neighbors, but the cost to them in terms of lives lost and damage would be prohibitively expensive; they have also completely shlacked the Borg and other adversaries on many an occasion, and often if not always enslaving their captives from wars in what amount to Gulags... but the cost to them in odds of fending off future adversaries, against whom they've constantly come out successful, with some notable exceptions, such as the "Romulan War" for instance, but not without cost in terms of ability to fend off future adversaries- that's what they fear: 'while we clobber this enemy we'll wind up too weak to fend off those adversaries' kind of deal. That's what makes them so unwilling to fight, unless they must to ensure the collapse and conquest of an enemy.
Look at what they did to the native Remans for instance: they only won the hard-fought struggle against them by means of discovering that the Remans were temporarily disabled by a bright light and with that they won the war, subjugated them, and enslaved them, as was typical of their society. But when they employed the Remans as soldiers in the Dominion War the Remans loved the idea as it turns out; the Romulans had recruited more than a billion battalions in less than two weeks and trained them very well for combat indeed, and then Shinzon's vessel design proved flat-out devastating to the Dominion at that in all sorts of encounters- he was going wheresoever he chose and attacking them at will, constantly successful in his campaign against the Dominion.
Lore theory: Venom Geek Media did a brilliant analysis on this some time ago. His Battlespace episodes are well worth a watch. The Romulans were watching the Dominion under cloak. They knew where their bases were and exactly how to destroy them. The Romulans are not stupid, it's a chess match, yes, but a three-dimensional, possibly fourth, one. The Romulans knew that eventually would have to join the war. Senator Verenak's assassination by Garak was an excuse they could act upon.
The fleet they sent to Deep Space Nine was a fraction of their entire Navy. Remember, the Tal Shiar fleet and the Romulan Navy were two separate entities. Can't run an empire which is two thirds the size the Federation without having plenty ships.
Oh and the Romulans were well aware Section 31 and its ability to make assassination look like accidents. They never took the Senators assassination at face value...it would be un-Romulan.
"Paper tiger" early on, then "a lot of firepower" later. I think it's safe to say that Romulans were powerful enough to be an existential threat to either the Klingons or the Federation if they went all-in. But they never went all-in because they also wouldn't win. They would just end up taking out most of the power of one of the other two with them. Largely because, while they had the most advanced weapons systems of the three (in the 24th century, not earlier), they had nowhere near enough manpower and were concentrated on so few planets that one magic FTL supernova could ruin them.
I would also argue they weren't very expansionist. They didn't WANT to conquer the Federation or Klingons. Unlike their rivals and other powers, we see them having a very well defined space that is more defensible. You can't cut off sections of Romulan space like you can Klingon or Federation space. When they take something, they move their line slightly, and it's always for a tactical advantage, not territorial expansion. And, tellingly, they bottle up for decades at a time - they're an isolationist power.
That's not to say they won't attack deep into enemy territory, though. They would certainly try to cut off the head of their enemies as the Tal Shiar attempted with the Founder "homeworld" and the attempted invasion of Vulcan. But neither of these gained them territory. Just stability. And we also saw that goal in Enterprise with them attempting to stop the alliances of Vulcan, Andoria, Earth and Tellar in order to maintain the existing balance of power that they felt safe with.
I think it's safer to say they were biding their time, looking for an opportunity to successfully do what the Tal Shiar failed to do. As you said, they knew how to work around the Federation and Klingon Empire, but they had to know they would be subjects of the Dominion eventually if the Federation lost. I think your theory is mostly correct, but "paper tiger" is going too far.
I fully agree, and someone else touched on this briefly, but I have a theory that goes deeper.
We don’t know all the details of the treaty of Algerian, but I don’t think the UFP ceded cloaking technology for nothing, nor were they the only signers. The UFP survives and thrives by inclusion and taking the high road. That means membership and alliances, leading to supremacy by conventional power. I hold that the Romulans were at best a third rate power, Cardassians being the 4th, and they couldn’t hope to match anyone else in conventional warfare. Meaning their only chance at supremacy was WMDs. There are many mentions of certain weapons being banned, including Thaleron. By what authority would anyone enforce such a ban? By a coalition far greater than the UFP alone. I think that not only the UFP, but the Klingons, Ferengi, Talarians, Breen, and many others signed on to essentially annihilate the Romulan military if the RSE crossed a line.
So the Romulans always meant to enter the war, but they were split. The early entry faction saw their best hope as being a friend of the UFP, who would respect their autonomy while supporting their welfare. They wanted the UFP to win and wanted to win with them. The late entry faction, on the other hand, wanted to leverage the Dominion War not only to downgrade the UFP, but to renegotiate interstellar law in their favor. When faced with annihilation, the UFP would concede to allowing the RSE to deploy WMDs against the Dominion, thereby legitimizing their use and handing back the Romulans’ only possible path to supremacy. This is where the Scimitar class ships came from. The prototype was built in secret, as it was illegal.
The Vreenak incident played favorably into the hands of the early alliance faction, and I suspect that pro-alliance people biased the results of the investigation. They would have prevailed politically through the end of the war and afterwards, but the factional lines remained, as did the secret plans and weapons. This is where the coup led by Shinzon but supported by the military came in.
The Romulans are one of my favorite species on Star Trek. They are not stupid and had to know that the Dominion would eventually do to them what they had done to the Cardassians.
I have a theory: Vreenak led the efforts for the non aggression pact with the Dominion because he was part of the old thinking on the Federation and the Klingons. His faction also largely controlled the Praetor. And yet while powerful, were actually rather small. A majority of the Senate and indeed the Military weren't fooled by Dominion overtures and moved their forces into position waiting for Vreenak to die. I've always believed that Senator Cretak was always pro Federation as it suited the interests of the Romulans to be on Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar and Alpha Centauri's good sides and yet she remained patriotic (I also have another theory that she deliberately allowed herself to be accused of treason to throw off Neral, who was definitely anti Federation and owed his rise to Vreenak's faction, even if it risked her life and Ross knew she would've done it for Romulus and be the scapegoat). So when Vreenak died, his faction lost its leader (not giving a damn if it was the Dominion or the Federation) and the despised non aggression pact was gone. Eventually Neral was removed after the war and replaced by Hiren, who supported good relations with the Federation but was not about to go the full way in opening up to them. And it was all thanks to Sisko and Garak getting rid of the hated Vreenak.
I think it played out the way Garak told Sisko it would... that the Tal'Shiar & the Romulan Star Empire believed the recording was authentic.
But as for the fleets rapid response... I don't think the Romulans cared for the Dominion unilaterally violating Romulan space to attack the Federation & Klingons.
Probably convincing the Romulans even before Vreenak's death that the Dominion had no respect for others...
Vreek's death was the green flag... but the racers were already getting in position.
How could all of this get past Section 31? Either complacency, or they too knew what the Romulans could have been up to with the help of Koval.
the Tal Shiar was a S31 puppet after Bashir's visit.
csehszlovakze Actually, they were even before that. It was just that after that incident, the Section 31 puppet (Koval) had a powerful position in the Senate as well.
I've always felt that Starfleet was unintentionally pulling punches. Given how large the federation is there's no way the dominion could've taken and held it with out Gamma Quadrant reinforments add in the size of the Klingon empire and it becomes preposterous.
By pulling punches I mean not ramping up new ship production. Not going full warship design. Having several powerful ships with their most capable commanders assigned else where looking at the enterprise e here. It's like they couldn't let go of the diplomatic side.
Yup they played the players.........until their forces were ready. They could claim to be building up arms in case the federation and Klingons invaded them out of desperation while all the while knowing what the ships and soldiers were actually for. I should also point out that being one of the telepathic species like the Vulcans I suspect that it would have been harder for founders to infiltrate their ranks without them knowing. They could have very well let the founders believe they were on their side as well.
Don't forget the Breen - I believe the Breen would have entered the war on the side of the Federation if the Romulans joined the Dominion. I find it interesting they waited until after the Romulans joined the Fed/Kling Alliance until they entered the war. If they had wanted to join - why wait? The Federation was against the ropes prior to the Romulans joining... Let's not for get the Romulan's colloquialism "never turn your back on a Breen" (By Inferno's Light Part 2).
I'm glad you brought up the "15 bases" point - it was awfully fast for the Romulans to gather their fleet without the Dominion knowing, develop war plans, and then execute across light years to hit Dominion controlled territory. This, to me (as I'm a student of strategy), is the "tell" that the Romulans were planning an attack all along and were waiting for the right time.
I always liked this episode because Garak was ultimately right in his assessment of Sisko. He understood how the Romulans thought and precisely how to manipulate them into entering the war. And in the end, Sisko had to learn that in order to save the Federation and Alpha Quadrant, it would mean abandoning his principles for the greater good. If the Romulans really had intended to enter the war, Garak pushed all the right buttons to motivate them.
I thought it was obvious that the Romulans would enter either to destroy the Dominion while it was weak from fighting the Federation or to enter and destroy the Federation just as it was being defeated by the Dominion. I think this plan was original created for a Federation/Klingon war which is why they had the ships ready for it.
I do think the fleet that they used was the fleet that normally sits on the neutral zone border rather than a fleet that is hiding elsewhere.
Given that the Romulans and the Cardassians don't share a border, the fact they were able to hit 15 Cardassian sites in less than one day implies the Romulans already had ships ready and waiting for an attack on all 15 bases. The Romulans most likely would have waited until the Federation and Klingons had lost most of their ships, and then would have cleaned house while the Founders "alliance" were over-extended, deep into Federation / Klingon territory, with both sides heavily weakened and their supply lines extended. I agree that watching and waiting means that the Romulans would have the tactical advantage of having learnt how the Jem'Hadar, the Cardassians and the Breen fight.
Somehow, though, I doubt Starfleet would see the Romulans as heroes after that whole business with the Prometheus...
something something realpolitik.
I actually believe that the Romulans always intended to join the Fed-Klingon alliance. They were simply waiting for it to be advantageous for them to enter. Watching the Fed-Klingon Alliance fall would almost certainly mean they'd be next. I don't believe the Dominion would allow them to exist regardless of how great the diplomacy between the two powers could be. It would always end up in some form of subjection, and being under the thumb of the Dominion. Also, a victorious dominion almost certainly have major reinforcements from the Gamma quadrant. Even without those forces due to the collapse of the Wormhole or Space Jesus stopping it.....The Dominion would be entrenched and building up their forces with the spoils of war of nearly two full Quadrants. The Romulan knew their hand, they just had to decide how to best play the game. This was ultimately a decision sealed when the founders fortified the Wormhole's strength, and/or Sisko sent the Romulans packing when their single warbird could have prevented all this bloodshed by destroying the entrance.
The problem with the Star Trek Maps is they dont account for space being 3 dimensional. The map which places the Federation between Cardassian and Romulan space is from one `vertical` vantage point only. A few degrees higher or lower and you could easily have Romulan space being above or below Federation space and directly bordering the Cardassians.
Which is why a 3D map of the Star Trek Galaxy would be extremely useful.
This is pretty similar to what I've always thought, I even though that it was suggested that the Romulan's really were just bidding their time, always planning to strike but were just waiting till the Dominion was weak enough, maybe even waiting to rebuild their fleets. Even without them, the Federation and Klingons were doing a decent job of fighting back. While they were losing most of the time, they were performing strategic victories. Most likely, and it would go with their MO, the Romulans were waiting for the Federation to get far enough along, to defeat enough of the Dominion (hell, the may even have been performing their own covert ops to help out) to get in and move. OR...they may have been waiting for the Dominion to devastate both the Klingon and Federation fleets to enough of an extent that they could just swoop in, save the Alpha Quadrant with the remains of the other fleets, then while their are there, take over both the Federation and Klingon Empire. Even the Senator's reaction to what Sisko states...he knows he's right, and you can tell Romulus has done the math. With his death, Romulus probable figured close enough.
I think that the Romulans knew that Vreenak had been assassinated and that is what proved to the Star Empire that the Federation was ready to do what it took to win the war. Therefore they agreed to ally themselves on the winning side.
"they didnt complain about the cloak, more on that in a bit" - never mentions again
I always loved the Romulans, especially TOS Romulans. Them being the key to success in the war makes me smile.
They are far more interesting and complex species than any of the others. Greed war logic. Romulans had a more complex emotion and fits in more with what makes Star Trek great. They fought with their minds. One of my favorite TNG is that everyone was going to a planet to find something and nearly went to war over a planet. The people who created all the races in the galaxy showed up in a video, and most were mad. It was the Romulans who contacted Picard offering hope.
I think ultimately the Romulans asked themselves "Who do we prefer as a neighbor? the naive, easily tricked and relatively passive federation? or a hyper authoritarian empire with legions of slave soldiers?". I find it very unlikely they would accept a dominion victory as that would leave them by themselves with no one to fight their battles for them.
It makes sense that the Romulans are the weakest of the major powers, they where a breakaway group of the Vulcans who settled another world, one of multiple, most of which failed, and they where only a dozen generations removed from Vulcan. With only the Romulans themselves running things in the empire and there being multiple species they've conquered by sheer virtue of the size of their empire, what you have is a small elite of Vulcans controlling the government and military of an otherwise very diverse nation. This inherently necessitates an authoritarian police state because every Romulan who isn't holding the line is a liability due to the sheer demographic imbalance between the Romulans and their vassal races. Quite literally the problems of Rome but brought up to the Nth degree as there is no assimilating into Romulan culture for non-Romulans within the empire.
They aren't just a paper tiger, they're always on the brink by their very nature, which is why subterfuge would be their primary weapon. Why waste lives they can't afford to lose fighting the Federation and the Klingons when both can fight each other?
This in a way also explains their staple warship, the D'Deridex class Warbird. She's big, about twice the size of a Galaxy Class and armed to the absolute teeth, but just how many of these ships do they even have? To me, the D'Deridex is intended to intimidate the non-Romulan populace and the Empire's enemies into leaving them alone and the emphasis on stealth and subterfuge means they could conceal the number of Warbirds they actually have to make their fleet seem much bigger. The Romulan military in general may not be that big or at least the forces they can spare aren't given that they were intending to invaded and hold Vulcan with only six thousand ground troops, with a single Warbird for support. Maybe Romulan marines are the most elite hardened shocktroops in the galaxy, but six thousand men to hold down an entire planet with a population in the billions is pretty ambitious.
I imagine their military is a bit of a glass cannon and very powerful when they launch an attack due to their nature of weakening others from within and being able to launch stealth attacks but isn’t as large as the Feds or KDF so losses are more keenly felt when they start to add up over a protracted conflict.
I would be very interested to see more about the Romulans (and Klingons for that matter) and just how things were going, daily life of a nobody, the actual workings of the military, mundane stuff like that to get a better sense of who the Federation is dealing with.
Kinda like the Spartans.
From Romulan point of view keeping Federation at winning side is better and safer. UFP is known foe for them, they knew almost all about tactics, firepower, defences etc.
His name is Vreenak...stop calling him The Senator. I like that we're still discussing these topics in 2020. Keep up the good work, love your videos.
Thats not by accident..stay tuned
You make a lot of sense. But what if the Romulans were happy to have Vreenak deleted?
seems pretty likely romulus would have been sitting back waiting for starfleet to come begging for aid, they already extracted a rather large price for what was probably not a cutting edge cloaking device so waiting till the federation, bloodied, came to them for help would let them extract the maximum price for the least amount of casualties on their part, though everything is relative since the writers might not have been even thinking that way
In the past week, I've watched a number of Lore vids, and found them to be a mixed bag,
but this was definitely one of the better ones. Very interesting analysis which deepened
my understanding both of "In The Pale Moonlight" and the Dominion War in general.
I think this theory has a lot of merit and it is basically my head canon on Romulan doctrine leading up to their entry into the Dominion War.
If I could suggest something that might add weight to your theory. The death of Vreenak might have actually been useful to the Romulans in that it gave them something the Dominion hadn't really provided up to this point... a Casus Belli.
If this really is a big chess game from the Romulans then they probably would prefer this not LOOK like a chess game and the apparent assassination of a Senator gives them a legitimate cause for war that makes sense to all the other powers. They may have been close to declaring war anyway, if they were already in position to attack so many positions on the Cardassian border.
Ironically, even if whatever is left of the Tal Shiar did discover Sisko's plan, they might keep it quiet for now if that casus belli fights into the Star Empire's overall strategy. If the war went badly, then they could "discover" this information as a way to make nice with the Dominion and frame the Federation as a villain.
I agree with this theory as well, and your ideas too, but I have a small nitpick I have to make: the Romulans aren't playing CHESS, they're playing GO, which is a somewhat similar bit also very different type of strategy that usually has a LOT fewer casualties for them
@@seanmcgrath3826 Bit late, but what's "GO" in this context???
@@ilovejettrooper5922 "GO" is an Asian strategy game, Chinese in origin I think.
I strongly recommend you look it up, as successful military strategies are often compared to & sometimes based off it
The Romulans may have been assessing their enemy, indeed, because they may have had the most effective weapon and chose not to use it.
Romulan vessels are powered by a controlled singularity, rather than a matter/anti-matter engine. A Remote controlled vessel with such an engine would make the most powerful drone weapon in space, especially a cloaked one. It could be moved to intercept specific enemy fleets or target vessels (Clone factories), or, if necessary, once perfectly sure they had a target of a founder's home world, just such a planet. A singularity, a black hole, would swallow their enemy in one fell swoop... but might leave a considerable area of space unsafe to travel thru for a very long time... possibly forever if it grew large enough.
A doomsday weapon, perhaps....
I like this theory and it fits with what we know of the romulans. I would like to point out that bashir and his genetically enhanced friends predicted that the romulans would join the war in a few years, and also that they only joinned the war after the wormhole was secured, by the prophets, and after the dominion proved that they would interfeer in the affairs of neutral governments, like the ferengui.
Good job. This would all be classic Romulan. If fact I can't see them acting any other way.
Your theory makes a lot of sense. I think they were waiting for either the Federation or Klingons (or both) to suffer near mortal blows before entering the fray. They knew they couldn’t beat the Dominion alone but they wanted at least one of their old foes to be so weakened that they could swoop in and finish them off without fear of an attack from the other who had been so weakened by the war that they could do nothing about it. Very Romulan indeed.
I believe there is a great deal of wisdom in this analysis. Especially allowing themselves a front row seat for how the Dominion operated, at the expense of allowing them access to their territory. It is invaluable intelligence, given the Romulans undoubtedly knew the war would reach them eventually.
When you get right down to it, for the Romulans it always seemed they were far more interested in maintaining the devils they knew - the Federation and Klingons - versus the unknown quantity the Dominion clearly represented.
Actually, this makes a lot of sense, especially if you think about the part regarding the romulans allowing the dominion to use their space. The federation has very little intelligence assets amongst the dominion. But where are they likely to have focused their largest intelligence and espionage efforts and with a great deal of success, both with section 31 and vanilla Starfleet intelligence? The romulan star empire. Even before joint Cardassian-dominion counter-intelligence efforts, the federation would probably have had a lot more success in creating entire spy networks in romulan space than in cardassian space, even given the tal shiar's reputation. Before the dominion appeared on stage as well as the Borg, after the khitomer accords the federation would view the most likely enemy they would end up fighting the next major war against as being the romulans. The dominion does not have cloaking devices (not using them on combat ships anyway), so monitoring their passage is easy for the romulans, and probably was not even considered a secret by the romulans, making it so patterns and trends in dominion deployment through that region of space easy to detect, even if federation spies in romulan space are unable to give early warning. It does give the dominion an advantage due to creating a larger front for the federation to have to cover among other things, but the federation already had that region of space under close observation, so it would be easy to detect build ups of dominion forces. At the same time, what do you think the likelihood is that every dominion ship down to the most insignificant craft is being stalked the entire time by at least one cloaked romulan ship as it passes through their space? The romulans had a reputation for paranoia, and it would be somewhat similar to what the US's subs do with Russian nuclear subs on earth today. So yes, I think this is a highly plausible and possibly even likely theory.
I think one thing to add would be the Romulan obsession with being surrounded and outnumbered.
They are constantly trying to reunite with Vulcan, and that may be their official solution to that issue.
They see that the UFP is made up of many planets with vast populations, and that gives them an edge in almost every conflict.
While the Klingons are only one species, they tend to have an unusually large portion of their population focused on combat related careers to offset that issue.
By focusing on stealth and espionage the Romulans can offset their natural disadvantages. Their ultimate solution seems to be to reunite their entire species to finally give them the edge to stand out as a true rival to all the other superpowers.
this theory is spot on. Entirely in keeping with Romulan mentality.
Very good points. I'd further argue that the very next day after attacking the Dominion the second thing the Romulans would do is present 5,000 (subtly flawed) cloaking devices to the UFP along with a proposal to drop the prohibition of Starfleet using or developing cloaking tech for the duration of joint hostilities providing they work together to outfit at least one whole fleet with fullon phasing cloaks.
As you argue and despite appearances Romulus would be way more afraid of the Dominion anyway. Only as a distant second would they want to weaken the Klingons relative position which a less hardline Star Empire might accomplish through their delayed entry into the war and better diplomatic ties with the UFP post conflict.
This sounds Romulan enough to be a thing.
"Big Damn Heros!"
Shiny!
Here's my beef: According to the episode, the Dominion use Romulan space as a "shield" to strike at federation targets.
*looks at the map you provided*
Were in the high holy hell is this taking place? The Romulans are on the other side of Federation space, and neither they nor the Klingons share a border with the Cardassians or Bajorans, or any other Dominion-held territory... Unless the Dominion had taken over all the space north orsouth of, say, that 3rd or 4th ring? Hell, it also bugged me when everyone goes on about the "Alpha Quadrant" when the Romulans, Klingons, and over 50% of Federation space are in the BETA quadrant.... but mweh.
Only if you think 2dimensionally. In 3D space the Romulans could have border a lot closer to Cardassia than one might expect.
The theory is that the 2D map is incorrect and that the Klingons and Romulans border the Cardassians (or are much closer, at least) because their territory wraps over/under the federation's. The Galaxy is a 1,000 light years thick, so it makes no sense to assume one territory extends from top to bottom.
I hate all the maps we have because they are all two dimensional. Space is three dimensional and I suspect that the Cardassian Union was situated “above” or “below” the other major powers. This would allow them to all border each other.
@@mattwho81 So I committed the same error Khan did in that nebula. Damn!
I ignore the maps because how can you make a 2d map of 3d space. But I do understand. As far as I remember, ROmulans never bordered Cardassia, and I jsut imagine Romulans illegally travel into Federation or Klingon space to interact with them.
Romulans being less of a threat than they try to project themselves as puts the D'deridex class ships in a new light - they're quite literally overcompensating with a gigantic monster of a ship when there's very little actual muscle behind it.
ESPECIALLY in shielding and armor against enemy fire too apparently. As the other powers CONSTANTLY had to back them up. Even when they combined a Romulan Armada with ones from the other powers
The original design of the Warbird was a carrier. That was why there is an open space in the middle. But by what we saw in the movie, their fleet as mainly based on their battlecruiser. They are not a well rounded military and are extremely vulnerable. I was disappointed that they did not bring out the Romulan bird of Prey and emphasize that the Bird of prey is a Romulan design and the Klingons only borrowed it.
@@slewone4905 That's all the down to writing. The Klingons were always more popular even back in the original series so that's who got more screen time. More Screen time equals better writing, better ships, more ships, weapons etc... but always inferior to the federation. The federation (gene's idealistic US socialist utopia in space) must win at all cost or they wouldn't have a show. Andromeda did it better in that regard. The Common Wealth was originally supposed to be the federation only in a collapsed apocalyptic state with it being on the receiving end of more powerful advanced intergalactic powers.
@@Not-Ap I know it was practical for them to call the Klingon bird of Prey , when they did search of Spock , they didn't bother changing the name when the rewritten the script from Klingons stealing a Romulan vessel. It feels still wrong, since There is less glory when you are hiding from your enemy, though. But the vessel was so beautiful done, people stuck to it. It also felt wrong when the ROmulans only use Warbirds. These are sneaky people who spy on people. They wouldn't waste such a large ship to do that, when a cloaked scout can still do the job. Risk thousands of lives and an over price ship, or a cheap vessel with tens or hundreds on it.
1. There is a war between the Romulans and Klingons sometime between the original series and TNG. 2. What's a Federation ship ? The Enterprise D has a Klingon aristocrat at tactical. The Voyager has a Klingon chief engineer My point is it would be easy to reflag federation ships as Klingon.
Well, half-klingon in the case of Voyager.
And Worf's history is... Complicated.
@@malusignatius We don't discuss it with outsiders..
What if Garak was acting on behalf of elements of the Tal Shiar?
I always figured that the Romulans knew that something was fishy with Vreenak's death and they're figuring that the federation might've something to do with that. The Romulans wouldn't be shocked of such duplicity but rather gain some weird kind of respect for what the federation can do if pressed. And whatever happened, for Romulans wouldn't have the complete picture, the federation's "rogue" intelligence service didn't have anything to do with that.
I was with you right up until you said, "irregardless." Sorry, man. I gotta head out on that.
Hey, its an actual word.. Check it out.. if you dont like it, i understand..seems petty but you do you boo! Youll be watching half my stuff on a lot of videos :p
@@LoreReloaded "Non-standard" is another way of saying it's incorrectly used so much that scholars had to give in and give it a tiny bit of legitimacy-that doesn't make it a real word any more than, "gotta" or "all the sudden" are correct.
I'm not sure what you mean with that last sentence. Are you saying other UA-cam channels present your information/theories as their own?
@@jonsnowight9510 if it has partial legitimacy doesnt that mean its .. atleast a bit legit? You stopped watching for that word, which is fine.. i use it ever so often so you may miss a few others :p
Let me applogize for the petty comment, on reflection it was untoward. Id just gotten done with an actual troll (not you) and was a bit sensitive.
I'll keep watching irregardless
That has largely always been my assumption. It's ridiculous to think the Romulans hadn't already gamed out Sisko's reasoning in The Pale Moon Light.
Yeah maybe a Romulan pro Fed/Klingon version of sec 31 wanted and was working to get their side in against the Dominion.. then they figured out Sickos plan and moved, unknowingly, by anyone to help make that happen.. it's not TOO farfetched not ALL then weren't having the same arguments Dax and Sisko had about letting hostile militaries with shady agendas just conduct whole battles in their Territory and around
I see what you're saying, and that is exactly what the US did in both world wars. They held back and waited until they could wait no longer, then they steamrolled the enemy (kind of).
I agree. The Romulans studied the Dominion and waited for the proper time to enter the war. "The Sisko incident" provided an opportune time to do so.
This theory defo explains why when they entered the war they had such a successful assault so quickly.
I agree.
But have one question. After entering the war and with the fed agent at the top of d romulan government, why didn’t they allow starfleet use/create a cloking device.
That would be up to the Senate and it’s highly unlikely that they’d allow the Federation (a likely post war rival) to use such a strategically powerful device across its fleet. They were initially so successful because the Dominion forces were tied up fighting the Federation and Klingons. Strategically, the Romulans stabbed the Dominion in the back. Once the Dominion was able to shift forces to fight the Romulans, the Romulans adopted a defensive posture and were VERY reluctant to invade Cardassian territory. It’s one thing to attack lightly defended targets, it’s another thing to attack heavily fortified positions. We know the Romulans “struck” 15 bases, we don’t know if they destroyed them. Likely, these were quick, hit and run attacks to knock the Dominion off balance right at the start of the conflict.
Great break down loved the bit about them playing chess always how I have viewed the romulans they are so pragmatic
Pretty interesting! Thanks for the upload!
Romulans are my favourite trek villains
I see 2 problems. 1/ The cloaking device was lost when the first Defiant was destroyed. 2/ I think there are just a few too many what if’s. I agree the Romulans could have been sitting back and gathering inelegance and waiting to pick there moment. The only fact you forgot is their arrogance. They believe in their own superiority and it is the major flaw. I think their arrogance is why they entered the war earlier. I think that Dax’s musings that it would be easy to sweep in and pick up the pieces is more believable.
The 1st defiant wasn’t destroyed until the 2nd Battle of Chin’Taka, which was later than In the Pale Moonlight.
The most powerful Romulan ship ever seen was designed to mine Coal.
nah, the most powerful ship was built in secret in a cave by reman miners in rags.
The way Garrick dispatch vreenak was hideously clever
I wonder why neither the Klingons nor the Romulans started equipping Starfleet ships with cloaking devices during the the war. It’s not like Starfleet didn’t already have one to study, so what’s a few hundred more? It would have allowed fleet movements like gathering for the push at Chin’Toka etc easier as the Dominion wouldn’t be able to monitor their ships as easily. And if it came to it one Starfleet ship and one Klingon or Romulan ship could do that ‘play dead’ tactic we saw with the Defiant and the Rotarran.
It might be compatibility. Remember , unless the ship was specifically design for cloaking, they would leave an ion trail. The ship may not have enough power for a state of the art cloaking device. THe Defiance was overpowered so they might be the exception.
You forgot that the Romulan Senate was not united. Surely there were many senators who wanted to join the war on the side of the Federation. But at the time, apparently Vreenak, had the greatest influence as a close adviser to Proconsul Neral, and architect of a non-aggression pact between the Romulan Star Empire and the Dominion. Removing Vreenak changed that, Garak knew it (even though the fake record plan didn't work).
I believe the Romulans wanted the Dominion to defeat the federation-Klingon alliance, which would leave a severely weakened Dominion in control of the Alpha Quadrant. The Romulans simply would then have to destroy the wormhole, cutting off Dominion reinforcements, and then wage war against a severely weakened Dominion force. I believe the Romulans would have a very good chance of defeating them, leaving them in complete control of the Alpha Quadrant
The wormhole was cut off to the Dominion at this point
Yes, but after the defeat of the federation, the Dominion would control it, at which the Romulans would immediately attack to cut off reinforcements and defeat a weakened Dominion which just defeated the Federation-Klingon alliance
Want the Prophet's preventing any more of the Dominion using the wormhole
Chris Nunn that was a one-time thing because Sisko pleaded. I doubt they would continuously do that
@@alexe606 There were doing that to protect Bajor so there would stop them from coming through otherwise there could have overran DS9 at anytime there wanted
The Romulans are one off my favourites. DS9 did not enough with them butbstill managed to evolve them soo much more
I think the logistics of the Romulan Empire was completely different from that of the Klingons or Federation. The latter rely on antimatter storage. This requires a long logistical tail and a large industrial body.
Artificial quantum singularities, once a technological possibility, can convert any mass into usable energy. A Romulan ship can turn anything from asteroids, to gas giant atmosphere, to interstellar hydrogen into warp plasma. Replicators would fulfill any material need, severing the last need for connection to the Empire. Once you can power your ship with an AQS, it becomes its own break-away society. IMHO, this is why the Tal Shiar is so draconian, as a single AQS powered ship could decide to escape to anywhere and start its own, new Romulan Empire. Its range would be basically infinite: it could run off interstellar gas from the bussard collectors or belly-up to any kuiper belt object or oort-cloud comet and beam all the mass it needs for months or years of warp 9 travel into the event horizon of an AQS; it need simply reshape that horizon to retrieve that mass in the form of energy.
So, what keeps all captains and crews attached to the empire? Fear and suspicion. What else?
This would indicate a fragile but brittle truce between those that control the empire --the senate-- and those that control the ships. The balance of power would be complex.
To that extent, some pretext would be required to convince the Romulan Navy that a declaration of war with the Dominion was worth honoring or acting on. I think the Senate was quite willing to accept the sabotage of Vreenax' ship as being exactly what it looked like, without looking too deeply into it: it would give members of the Senate an excuse to order around the navy and getting rid of rivals and dissidents.
I'm really wondering if Romulan bias is the only reason Garak/Sisko's plan worked. Romulans are constantly scheming and plotting, so they assume everyone else is doing the same - something referenced throughout TNG.
I think that had they looked at all the evidence objectively, they would have found evidence in the computer's logs that the senator visited DS9, and that the imperfections in the recording weren't consistent with physical damage to the rod.
However, the Romulans are inherently mistrustful. They didn't trust the Dominion to start with and were only acting in their own self interest for as long as it served them. When they saw the "betrayal" they jumped at it without considering the possibility that it was a fake.
It's interesting. Had the same maneuver been attempted on some other species, it would have backfired spectacularly - but against the Romulans it's the perfect weapon.