Lore Theory : The Romulans Strategy Exposed!?!
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- Start from the beginning: • Dominion War : How Gar...
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Interesting that yous say that the Romulans may of had cloaked fleets ready to save the day. This may be an example: #InfernoLights
ua-cam.com/video/pIcQ4Gm9GSM/v-deo.html
If they DID they shoulda done something. All they had to do was sucker a large amount of enemy troops into their territory.. it's been PERFECT for a trap if they was ALWAYS gonna turn on the Dominion
@@robertagu5533 they were most likely biding their time before joining with the likely winner.
Oooooo
@@robertagu5533 In a situation like that it is going to be about timing.
The timing wasn't right. If Lore Reloaded is right, the best strategy would be to strike JUST as the Dominion was achieving victory. The Dominion would likely have dedicated nearly all of their forces and left their core systems exposed. Then the Dominion fleet is caught between two hostile forces, cut off from resupply, and effectively unable to retreat to friendly territory. Plus they will have taken losses which will put them in an even worse position. THEN you also have all the other powers of the quadrant very, very grateful to you for saving the day, effectively meaning they are going to support your foreign policy down the road.
Imo it's similar to Klingon houses. Various sub groups who have their own fleet. The Praetor in charge of the main fleet, Tal Shiar 2nd largest, and the others.
Vreenak in his ship while returning to Romulus: [thinking to himself] "This falsified cardassian data rod proves how weakened and desperate they are, the time has come to join the fight on their side. Well, captain Sisko, I guess you got what you wanted, even if it didn't happen the way you expected. I look forward to establishing my office at DS9 whi-" *BOOOM*
That would have been an amazing final scene to see.
This is the funniest thing I’ve read all day.
😂
In a pale moonlight is one of the best star trek episodes ever
I agree, it shows Capt. Sisko to be an even more nuanced person. It also shows that war isn't all tea and medals, it's sacrifice and devastation on both sides.
I can live with it...I CAN live with it...
@@antbric6515 that's just a brilliant ending. I loved it so much
@@ladythalia227
Computer...erase that entire personal log.
In my opinion it's the best episode.
Garek is the best character on DS9.
It may be narrated by Sissko and from his perspective but it's all about Garek.
Romulan fleets hiding under cloak, waiting to spring a "Here comes the cavalry" trap on the Dominion makes perfect sense.
spiritofthewolf15x they just appear and shout SUPRISE MOTHAFUCKA over all channels 😂 before blasting them to hell
And the Winged Huss- I mean, Cloaked Warbirds arrived!
@@brandonrice4035 XD nice (and now i need to go listen to some sabaton because you just made a song stick in my head)
spiritofthewolf15x too easy
But the defiant was detected while cloaked if memory serves which would lead me to think that the cloaking tech was useless which is why they needed to steal an enemy ship to get into enemy territory idk might be the excuse I need to justify a rewatch
I believe the Romulans knew the Federation had faked the recording, but were impressed enough by the Federation's treachery that it inspired them to abandon their neutrality. Such an action would signal to them that they weren't dealing with a 'weak' Federation anymore, but rather a new, battle-hardened faction willing to do whatever it took to win.
That strikes me as a pretty fair assessment. The Federation has never really spoken the same language as the Romulans. They negotiate with Klingons in the language of honor, and even though they have very different views on what actions are honorable, there is enough congruence for them to mostly get along in their alliance. But Romulans speak the language of ruthless political maneuver and intrigue, which is pretty much indecipherable to the Federation. Between them, Sisko and Garak (mostly Garak) managed to propose an alliance in terms that made sense to the Romulans.
Federation did you just take evidence and assassinate our senator? You little scamp! Ali right we’ll join in.
I don't think so. to assassinate a senator in an attempt to frame a common enemy is really egregious and would warrant a response. Especially from an enemy like the Federation that they had deep mistrust for. The only way that could work if there were people in Romulan intelligence who suppressed the truth.
The Romulans have never had the numbers to win a slugging match against Starfleet or the Klingons. Props to them for playing the long and smart game. It is highly unlikely that the Imperial Navy would have been able to mount 15 separate assaults on Dominion bases immediately after entering the war. The assets to carry out those operations and the plans to do so would have taken weeks if not months to gather and coordinate. No, they were already in place and ready.
I think the 24th century Romulans were significantly stronger than the 23rd or 22nd century Romulans who had been defeated by Earth in the Earth-Romulan war. I think they grew tremendously in strength during the 50 years they had little interaction with the Federation, as mentioned in TNG episode, The Neutral Zone. The fact that the Romulans could attack a Klingon colony, that they can interfere in the Klingon civil war between Gowron and the Duras clan, without touching off a war which they would lose, supports that. They certainly have much more impressive ships, like the D'deridex class.
@xc5647321 xc5647321
They were fighting the Borg. When the Romulans were being reintroduced on TNG, the intention was to show them as being more powerful than Starfleet, with giant warbirds, then having the Borg destroy them easily.
Fortunately, the writers of TNG backpedalled from this original idea.
15 assaults on bases not near the frontlines? It wouldn’t take that many ships. Perhaps a few each base. It was never specified how important or well defended these bases were, especially considering the historically cordial relations between Romulus and Cardassia. I would agree they had ships there ready to spring into action. It just didn’t take fleets of hundreds of ships to do so. These were merely outposts.
Senator: your data rod is fake and for that reason im out.
Sisko: damn
Garak: is that your final answer?
@Jessica The Azu The rod may be fake, but the gel packs are not.
What gel packs?
I kind of suspect that they were waiting for their assistance to be asked for when the alliance was desperate and would be able to negotiate terms for political concessions that would benefit solely them both during and after the war. The senator did seem to start to agree with Sisko and I’m wondering that that was part of their plan had Sisko not been deceiving them the senate would more formally (if secretly) offer their allegiance to the alliance... for a price. If Sisko hadn’t made the effort to arrange the meeting then they could have done much as what was theorised in this video to cover that possibility. However the deception pushed them into joining out of seeming self preservation and vengeance likely saving starfleet and (perhaps unknowingly) the klingon empire from having to pay any cost (except their integrity).
seems really likely, the romulans charged starfleet a hell of a lot for that single cloaking device and were waiting for the federation to come to them and ask for aid letting them ask for territory and technology
The Senator was more likely trying to use that information to increase his influence to possibly reach procouncil.
Romulans: We will be the greatest Galactic superpower after the Dominion War.
JJ Abrams: I'm about to end these people's whole careers.
Great analysis. I agree that Garak always had the "back up plan" as his plan A all along. The holo recording needed to look as authentic as possible but the rod as you say was impossible to get. That bio mimetic gel was previously mentioned on the show and obviously had black market value. This episode is some good Fn Trek!!
Oh and "Irregardless" should just be regardless shouldn't it?
German spy planes flying over England: It looks like the allies are amassing a large invasion force bound for caleigh!
George Patton popping out of a vent: IT’S A FAAAAAAAAAKE.
Them having cloaked fleets just near by kind of makes sense considering how they showed up to the worm hole to support the Klingons and Federation right after the Cardassians joined the Dominion. Honestly I wish they had used the Romulans more because they didn't really get to do much. In the final battle the Romulan command ship was destroyed so they wouldn't have to include a Romulan officer talking with the leaders of the Klingons and Federation. They effectively just became more ships.
Then again I think it was just a plot line that got lost along the way like the Jem'hadar Alphas vs Gammas, the Romulan officer who was operating the Defiant's cloak, and any time the amount of white was limited.
So I will learn to live with it.
Because I can live with it...
I _can_ live with it.
Which is why he's my favorite Trek captain. He'll do things the others can't or won't if they are necessary
lol this plan is almost how the United States looked in the two world wars.
Except we DIDN'T have large amounts of powerful military forces IMMEDIATELY in place and ready to IMMEDIATELY attack a lot of enemy forces IMMEDIATELY on joining either war though. Sure we had initial mass numbers could gather in a hurry BUT they were far from elite units, least initially.
@@robertagu5533 Correction World War I, the US was ready in July 1917, within 3 months of April 6th 1917 declaration of war, the American Expeditionary Force (AEF) under General John Pershing began combat in Europe. The US thanks to the assistance of former President Theodore Roosevelt had undergone a "preparedness movement" prior to war, drilling and arming an army years before it was to see combat.
@@time391 Yes, there is strong evidence that America (Government) was always willing to join the war from the very start, but the American people had no stomach for the war, and the sinking of the Lusitania was used as an excuse to rile the people up, a battle cry so to speak.
The Romulan Star Empire: the Arsenal of Democracy?
I was about to say the same thing. Good ol USA, shows up late and takes all the credit.
There's an old expression; Never turn your back to a Romulan
I would have made the same choices as Sisko. He knew that Star Fleet was not ready to fight a war in the “down and dirty” style that was needed to win and allow the Federation planets to remain free. War is not a nice and clean business. If you are going to enter into a war you must fight it to win as quickly as possible. Save lives by fighting with the gloves off.
Romulans were probably proud and impressed a Federation officer would do something so dastardly to give them the reason to attack.
I kinda had the feeling the Romulans were gathering intelligence on Dominion tactics. Another thought on that, I also think the Romulans had ships follow Dominion fleets when they went into battle and also had some enter Cardassian space to gather intelligence on the Dominion that way.
How could all of this get past Section 31? Either complacency, or they too knew what the Romulans could have been up to with the help of Koval.
the Tal Shiar was a S31 puppet after Bashir's visit.
csehszlovakze Actually, they were even before that. It was just that after that incident, the Section 31 puppet (Koval) had a powerful position in the Senate as well.
I actually believe that the Romulans always intended to join the Fed-Klingon alliance. They were simply waiting for it to be advantageous for them to enter. Watching the Fed-Klingon Alliance fall would almost certainly mean they'd be next. I don't believe the Dominion would allow them to exist regardless of how great the diplomacy between the two powers could be. It would always end up in some form of subjection, and being under the thumb of the Dominion. Also, a victorious dominion almost certainly have major reinforcements from the Gamma quadrant. Even without those forces due to the collapse of the Wormhole or Space Jesus stopping it.....The Dominion would be entrenched and building up their forces with the spoils of war of nearly two full Quadrants. The Romulan knew their hand, they just had to decide how to best play the game. This was ultimately a decision sealed when the founders fortified the Wormhole's strength, and/or Sisko sent the Romulans packing when their single warbird could have prevented all this bloodshed by destroying the entrance.
Sisko's monologue at the time end of the episode efficively implied that the Romulans always planned to strike against the Dominion. Launching a massive attack all across the border against 15 bases literally moments after the declaration of war meant that the Romulan fleets were already mobilized, strategy already set, and specific battle plans already in place. All forces were just waiting for a single word from Romulus.
Romulans are the best characters on ST! Always plotting and scheming but have might to back it up.
This is pretty similar to what I've always thought, I even though that it was suggested that the Romulan's really were just bidding their time, always planning to strike but were just waiting till the Dominion was weak enough, maybe even waiting to rebuild their fleets. Even without them, the Federation and Klingons were doing a decent job of fighting back. While they were losing most of the time, they were performing strategic victories. Most likely, and it would go with their MO, the Romulans were waiting for the Federation to get far enough along, to defeat enough of the Dominion (hell, the may even have been performing their own covert ops to help out) to get in and move. OR...they may have been waiting for the Dominion to devastate both the Klingon and Federation fleets to enough of an extent that they could just swoop in, save the Alpha Quadrant with the remains of the other fleets, then while their are there, take over both the Federation and Klingon Empire. Even the Senator's reaction to what Sisko states...he knows he's right, and you can tell Romulus has done the math. With his death, Romulus probable figured close enough.
Good job. This would all be classic Romulan. If fact I can't see them acting any other way.
It's Regardless.. trying to defend "irregardless" is equivalent to people using the word "literally" as an exaggeration rather than its literal definition.
That being awesome channel and video
I always loved the Romulans, especially TOS Romulans. Them being the key to success in the war makes me smile.
They are far more interesting and complex species than any of the others. Greed war logic. Romulans had a more complex emotion and fits in more with what makes Star Trek great. They fought with their minds. One of my favorite TNG is that everyone was going to a planet to find something and nearly went to war over a planet. The people who created all the races in the galaxy showed up in a video, and most were mad. It was the Romulans who contacted Picard offering hope.
The Romulans are one of my favorite species on Star Trek. They are not stupid and had to know that the Dominion would eventually do to them what they had done to the Cardassians.
I always figured the romulans holding out of the war made no sense but this nails it!
I like this theory and it fits with what we know of the romulans. I would like to point out that bashir and his genetically enhanced friends predicted that the romulans would join the war in a few years, and also that they only joinned the war after the wormhole was secured, by the prophets, and after the dominion proved that they would interfeer in the affairs of neutral governments, like the ferengui.
In the past week, I've watched a number of Lore vids, and found them to be a mixed bag,
but this was definitely one of the better ones. Very interesting analysis which deepened
my understanding both of "In The Pale Moonlight" and the Dominion War in general.
This sounds Romulan enough to be a thing.
I was with you right up until you said, "irregardless." Sorry, man. I gotta head out on that.
Hey, its an actual word.. Check it out.. if you dont like it, i understand..seems petty but you do you boo! Youll be watching half my stuff on a lot of videos :p
@@LoreReloaded "Non-standard" is another way of saying it's incorrectly used so much that scholars had to give in and give it a tiny bit of legitimacy-that doesn't make it a real word any more than, "gotta" or "all the sudden" are correct.
I'm not sure what you mean with that last sentence. Are you saying other UA-cam channels present your information/theories as their own?
@@jonsnowight9510 if it has partial legitimacy doesnt that mean its .. atleast a bit legit? You stopped watching for that word, which is fine.. i use it ever so often so you may miss a few others :p
Let me applogize for the petty comment, on reflection it was untoward. Id just gotten done with an actual troll (not you) and was a bit sensitive.
I'll keep watching irregardless
I think this theory has a lot of merit and it is basically my head canon on Romulan doctrine leading up to their entry into the Dominion War.
If I could suggest something that might add weight to your theory. The death of Vreenak might have actually been useful to the Romulans in that it gave them something the Dominion hadn't really provided up to this point... a Casus Belli.
If this really is a big chess game from the Romulans then they probably would prefer this not LOOK like a chess game and the apparent assassination of a Senator gives them a legitimate cause for war that makes sense to all the other powers. They may have been close to declaring war anyway, if they were already in position to attack so many positions on the Cardassian border.
Ironically, even if whatever is left of the Tal Shiar did discover Sisko's plan, they might keep it quiet for now if that casus belli fights into the Star Empire's overall strategy. If the war went badly, then they could "discover" this information as a way to make nice with the Dominion and frame the Federation as a villain.
I agree with this theory as well, and your ideas too, but I have a small nitpick I have to make: the Romulans aren't playing CHESS, they're playing GO, which is a somewhat similar bit also very different type of strategy that usually has a LOT fewer casualties for them
@@seanmcgrath3826 Bit late, but what's "GO" in this context???
@@ilovejettrooper5922 "GO" is an Asian strategy game, Chinese in origin I think.
I strongly recommend you look it up, as successful military strategies are often compared to & sometimes based off it
seems pretty likely romulus would have been sitting back waiting for starfleet to come begging for aid, they already extracted a rather large price for what was probably not a cutting edge cloaking device so waiting till the federation, bloodied, came to them for help would let them extract the maximum price for the least amount of casualties on their part, though everything is relative since the writers might not have been even thinking that way
Very good points. I'd further argue that the very next day after attacking the Dominion the second thing the Romulans would do is present 5,000 (subtly flawed) cloaking devices to the UFP along with a proposal to drop the prohibition of Starfleet using or developing cloaking tech for the duration of joint hostilities providing they work together to outfit at least one whole fleet with fullon phasing cloaks.
As you argue and despite appearances Romulus would be way more afraid of the Dominion anyway. Only as a distant second would they want to weaken the Klingons relative position which a less hardline Star Empire might accomplish through their delayed entry into the war and better diplomatic ties with the UFP post conflict.
"Big Damn Heros!"
Shiny!
Given that the Romulans and the Cardassians don't share a border, the fact they were able to hit 15 Cardassian sites in less than one day implies the Romulans already had ships ready and waiting for an attack on all 15 bases. The Romulans most likely would have waited until the Federation and Klingons had lost most of their ships, and then would have cleaned house while the Founders "alliance" were over-extended, deep into Federation / Klingon territory, with both sides heavily weakened and their supply lines extended. I agree that watching and waiting means that the Romulans would have the tactical advantage of having learnt how the Jem'Hadar, the Cardassians and the Breen fight.
Question Lore Reloaded, if you don't mind. Had Nero turned the Narada over to the Romulan Star Empire, how would it effect the Kelvin Timeline both in short and long term?
His name is Vreenak...stop calling him The Senator. I like that we're still discussing these topics in 2020. Keep up the good work, love your videos.
Thats not by accident..stay tuned
It is also possible that the Romulans would discover the forgery, but, it being in their better interests to change sides, accused the Dominion anyway believing, as Sisko himself did, that there were plans of this nature against them. Further, it might have suited the ambitions of a number of factions to have this Senator eliminated. Romulans are Romulans and will conspire against one another as fast as they do against their enemies.
The way Garrick dispatch vreenak was hideously clever
I think ultimately the Romulans asked themselves "Who do we prefer as a neighbor? the naive, easily tricked and relatively passive federation? or a hyper authoritarian empire with legions of slave soldiers?". I find it very unlikely they would accept a dominion victory as that would leave them by themselves with no one to fight their battles for them.
Your theory makes a lot of sense. I think they were waiting for either the Federation or Klingons (or both) to suffer near mortal blows before entering the fray. They knew they couldn’t beat the Dominion alone but they wanted at least one of their old foes to be so weakened that they could swoop in and finish them off without fear of an attack from the other who had been so weakened by the war that they could do nothing about it. Very Romulan indeed.
Veenrak was a sacrifice. They knew the whole time they couldn't believe the Federation had the gumption to do this.
I agree with your assertion here. The Romulan MO is intelligence and subterfuge. it wouldn't be shocking if the operation from the Tal Shiar and Obsidian order was calculated to gain insight or intentionally weaken the Cardassian position. If they wipe out the Obsidian Order, it's to their benefit. If this organization had been absorbed into Dominion intelligence, it could've been disastrous for everyone in the Alpha and Beta quadrants with what they knew. So they hedge their bets, get free intelligence, and take out a rival power's strongest card. Then let the other two stronger military powers slug it out with them, learn more, and come in later when they had a reasonable chance of tipping the scale to the devils they can control. Sure, it was a resource hit, but it played out to their advantage long term.
You have no idea how complex the Rihannsu Imperium (Romulan Star Empire) really is, structurally: not only is their government essentially a true republic bolstered by a secret police that's almost second-to-none and an extremely deadly starfleet at that, but they've got elements of their administration that largely would resemble essentially a sort of Austrian Empire set into not only the 24th Century AD and also adding in a very baffling administrative structure, including a monarch, hence a regal family line, and a true republic, for in the last days of the Austrian Empire they actually had elected legislatures; problem they had was major fist-fights among their senators whenever they tried to pass any legislation... and they too have something of a feudal structure.
They, psychologically, have a similar home-governance structure to what the Klingons and/or Lyrans have, a downright feudal society but advanced spacefaring technology all mixed together; how'd this develop? Very simple: they had to cling together as a society because they were basically a breakaway colony system from Vulcan due to ideological conflicts- that plays a huge part in classic Romulan Paranoia- which's a survival trait on their part, as is the same with anyone who's suffered abuse come to think of it- and also plays into with their desire to reunify with Vulcan as a single people- they can and would easily win in a war with their neighbors, but the cost to them in terms of lives lost and damage would be prohibitively expensive; they have also completely shlacked the Borg and other adversaries on many an occasion, and often if not always enslaving their captives from wars in what amount to Gulags... but the cost to them in odds of fending off future adversaries, against whom they've constantly come out successful, with some notable exceptions, such as the "Romulan War" for instance, but not without cost in terms of ability to fend off future adversaries- that's what they fear: 'while we clobber this enemy we'll wind up too weak to fend off those adversaries' kind of deal. That's what makes them so unwilling to fight, unless they must to ensure the collapse and conquest of an enemy.
Look at what they did to the native Remans for instance: they only won the hard-fought struggle against them by means of discovering that the Remans were temporarily disabled by a bright light and with that they won the war, subjugated them, and enslaved them, as was typical of their society. But when they employed the Remans as soldiers in the Dominion War the Remans loved the idea as it turns out; the Romulans had recruited more than a billion battalions in less than two weeks and trained them very well for combat indeed, and then Shinzon's vessel design proved flat-out devastating to the Dominion at that in all sorts of encounters- he was going wheresoever he chose and attacking them at will, constantly successful in his campaign against the Dominion.
Romulans being less of a threat than they try to project themselves as puts the D'deridex class ships in a new light - they're quite literally overcompensating with a gigantic monster of a ship when there's very little actual muscle behind it.
ESPECIALLY in shielding and armor against enemy fire too apparently. As the other powers CONSTANTLY had to back them up. Even when they combined a Romulan Armada with ones from the other powers
The original design of the Warbird was a carrier. That was why there is an open space in the middle. But by what we saw in the movie, their fleet as mainly based on their battlecruiser. They are not a well rounded military and are extremely vulnerable. I was disappointed that they did not bring out the Romulan bird of Prey and emphasize that the Bird of prey is a Romulan design and the Klingons only borrowed it.
@@slewone4905 That's all the down to writing. The Klingons were always more popular even back in the original series so that's who got more screen time. More Screen time equals better writing, better ships, more ships, weapons etc... but always inferior to the federation. The federation (gene's idealistic US socialist utopia in space) must win at all cost or they wouldn't have a show. Andromeda did it better in that regard. The Common Wealth was originally supposed to be the federation only in a collapsed apocalyptic state with it being on the receiving end of more powerful advanced intergalactic powers.
@@Not-Ap I know it was practical for them to call the Klingon bird of Prey , when they did search of Spock , they didn't bother changing the name when the rewritten the script from Klingons stealing a Romulan vessel. It feels still wrong, since There is less glory when you are hiding from your enemy, though. But the vessel was so beautiful done, people stuck to it. It also felt wrong when the ROmulans only use Warbirds. These are sneaky people who spy on people. They wouldn't waste such a large ship to do that, when a cloaked scout can still do the job. Risk thousands of lives and an over price ship, or a cheap vessel with tens or hundreds on it.
I agree. The Romulans studied the Dominion and waited for the proper time to enter the war. "The Sisko incident" provided an opportune time to do so.
"Paper tiger" early on, then "a lot of firepower" later. I think it's safe to say that Romulans were powerful enough to be an existential threat to either the Klingons or the Federation if they went all-in. But they never went all-in because they also wouldn't win. They would just end up taking out most of the power of one of the other two with them. Largely because, while they had the most advanced weapons systems of the three (in the 24th century, not earlier), they had nowhere near enough manpower and were concentrated on so few planets that one magic FTL supernova could ruin them.
I would also argue they weren't very expansionist. They didn't WANT to conquer the Federation or Klingons. Unlike their rivals and other powers, we see them having a very well defined space that is more defensible. You can't cut off sections of Romulan space like you can Klingon or Federation space. When they take something, they move their line slightly, and it's always for a tactical advantage, not territorial expansion. And, tellingly, they bottle up for decades at a time - they're an isolationist power.
That's not to say they won't attack deep into enemy territory, though. They would certainly try to cut off the head of their enemies as the Tal Shiar attempted with the Founder "homeworld" and the attempted invasion of Vulcan. But neither of these gained them territory. Just stability. And we also saw that goal in Enterprise with them attempting to stop the alliances of Vulcan, Andoria, Earth and Tellar in order to maintain the existing balance of power that they felt safe with.
I think it's safer to say they were biding their time, looking for an opportunity to successfully do what the Tal Shiar failed to do. As you said, they knew how to work around the Federation and Klingon Empire, but they had to know they would be subjects of the Dominion eventually if the Federation lost. I think your theory is mostly correct, but "paper tiger" is going too far.
I think that the Romulans knew that Vreenak had been assassinated and that is what proved to the Star Empire that the Federation was ready to do what it took to win the war. Therefore they agreed to ally themselves on the winning side.
You seem to have forgotten that in the earlier episode "The die is cast," the Romulans and the Cardassians teamed up and collected a large war fleet to do a pre-emptive strike on the Founders' home planet. But the plan failed, their fleet was ambushed and destroyed. Both the Romulans and the Cardassians lost a major part of their armies in that episode, and neither were in shape to continu the war against the dominion. So the Romulans signed the non-aggresion pact with the Dominion.
Except they have a ton of ships later somehow..
1. There is a war between the Romulans and Klingons sometime between the original series and TNG. 2. What's a Federation ship ? The Enterprise D has a Klingon aristocrat at tactical. The Voyager has a Klingon chief engineer My point is it would be easy to reflag federation ships as Klingon.
Well, half-klingon in the case of Voyager.
And Worf's history is... Complicated.
@@malusignatius We don't discuss it with outsiders..
Romulans will tell you everything but show you nothing.
I think the simple portrayal is that the Romulans were just opportunist fence-sitters, playing both sides so that they'd not truly lose regardless of who won. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the view of some Trek writers. There is the possibility that, even if the Romulans were sitting cloaked in readiness to aid the Federation/Klingons, they were also sitting in readiness to help the Dominion. But, as the video points out, the only side that offered the Romulans the chance to come out as "heroes" and thus benefitting their position was to help the Federation in their time of need.
Not every time, in klingon civil war between Duras and Gowron, the Romulans are on Duras side earlier than Federation supporting Gowron.
That has largely always been my assumption. It's ridiculous to think the Romulans hadn't already gamed out Sisko's reasoning in The Pale Moon Light.
Yeah maybe a Romulan pro Fed/Klingon version of sec 31 wanted and was working to get their side in against the Dominion.. then they figured out Sickos plan and moved, unknowingly, by anyone to help make that happen.. it's not TOO farfetched not ALL then weren't having the same arguments Dax and Sisko had about letting hostile militaries with shady agendas just conduct whole battles in their Territory and around
Romulans are my favourite trek villains
I always assumed the Romulans are the ones that gave Garak the info about the Senator making the trip. The Romulan opposition to the Senator set him up.
They were attempting a Sun Tsu type of war, until Sisko/Garak axe'd the Senator.
Oh, man, I can see it!
Tal'Shiar 1: "So the Dominion really obviously killed our senator!"
Tal'Shiar 2: "Yeah, killing a senator on a diplomatic mission to a Federation base...I didn't think the Dominion was that overconfident."
Tal'Shiar 1: "They probably think they can invade faster if they take us all on at once."
Tal'Shiar 2: "But that would be better for the Federation than for them."
Tal'Shiar 1: "You don't think a Federation captain would have...?"
Tal'Shiar 2: "Sisko? Oh, come on! Sisko wouldn't do something like that! He's one of the honorable warrior types. The kind of human Klingons respect!"
Tal'Shiar 1: "Yeah..."
Tal'Shiar 2: "Besides! Starfleet are all marshmallows!"
Tal'Shiar 1: "Right..."
Tal'Shiar 2: "It's really gonna mess us up if anyone finds out about this, isn't it?"
Tal'Shiar 1: "Yeah, we should really forget this happened!"
I believe the Romulans wanted the Dominion to defeat the federation-Klingon alliance, which would leave a severely weakened Dominion in control of the Alpha Quadrant. The Romulans simply would then have to destroy the wormhole, cutting off Dominion reinforcements, and then wage war against a severely weakened Dominion force. I believe the Romulans would have a very good chance of defeating them, leaving them in complete control of the Alpha Quadrant
The wormhole was cut off to the Dominion at this point
Yes, but after the defeat of the federation, the Dominion would control it, at which the Romulans would immediately attack to cut off reinforcements and defeat a weakened Dominion which just defeated the Federation-Klingon alliance
Want the Prophet's preventing any more of the Dominion using the wormhole
Chris Nunn that was a one-time thing because Sisko pleaded. I doubt they would continuously do that
@@alexe606 There were doing that to protect Bajor so there would stop them from coming through otherwise there could have overran DS9 at anytime there wanted
I thought it was obvious that the Romulans would enter either to destroy the Dominion while it was weak from fighting the Federation or to enter and destroy the Federation just as it was being defeated by the Dominion. I think this plan was original created for a Federation/Klingon war which is why they had the ships ready for it.
I do think the fleet that they used was the fleet that normally sits on the neutral zone border rather than a fleet that is hiding elsewhere.
Had never considered the idea that the Romulans were studying “how to hurt Starfleet” by letting Dominion ships slip into their space. That’s quite brilliant. Worthy of a follow up. Thanks for this.
I believe there is a great deal of wisdom in this analysis. Especially allowing themselves a front row seat for how the Dominion operated, at the expense of allowing them access to their territory. It is invaluable intelligence, given the Romulans undoubtedly knew the war would reach them eventually.
When you get right down to it, for the Romulans it always seemed they were far more interested in maintaining the devils they knew - the Federation and Klingons - versus the unknown quantity the Dominion clearly represented.
The problem with the Star Trek Maps is they dont account for space being 3 dimensional. The map which places the Federation between Cardassian and Romulan space is from one `vertical` vantage point only. A few degrees higher or lower and you could easily have Romulan space being above or below Federation space and directly bordering the Cardassians.
Which is why a 3D map of the Star Trek Galaxy would be extremely useful.
I think the logistics of the Romulan Empire was completely different from that of the Klingons or Federation. The latter rely on antimatter storage. This requires a long logistical tail and a large industrial body.
Artificial quantum singularities, once a technological possibility, can convert any mass into usable energy. A Romulan ship can turn anything from asteroids, to gas giant atmosphere, to interstellar hydrogen into warp plasma. Replicators would fulfill any material need, severing the last need for connection to the Empire. Once you can power your ship with an AQS, it becomes its own break-away society. IMHO, this is why the Tal Shiar is so draconian, as a single AQS powered ship could decide to escape to anywhere and start its own, new Romulan Empire. Its range would be basically infinite: it could run off interstellar gas from the bussard collectors or belly-up to any kuiper belt object or oort-cloud comet and beam all the mass it needs for months or years of warp 9 travel into the event horizon of an AQS; it need simply reshape that horizon to retrieve that mass in the form of energy.
So, what keeps all captains and crews attached to the empire? Fear and suspicion. What else?
This would indicate a fragile but brittle truce between those that control the empire --the senate-- and those that control the ships. The balance of power would be complex.
To that extent, some pretext would be required to convince the Romulan Navy that a declaration of war with the Dominion was worth honoring or acting on. I think the Senate was quite willing to accept the sabotage of Vreenax' ship as being exactly what it looked like, without looking too deeply into it: it would give members of the Senate an excuse to order around the navy and getting rid of rivals and dissidents.
I fully agree, and someone else touched on this briefly, but I have a theory that goes deeper.
We don’t know all the details of the treaty of Algerian, but I don’t think the UFP ceded cloaking technology for nothing, nor were they the only signers. The UFP survives and thrives by inclusion and taking the high road. That means membership and alliances, leading to supremacy by conventional power. I hold that the Romulans were at best a third rate power, Cardassians being the 4th, and they couldn’t hope to match anyone else in conventional warfare. Meaning their only chance at supremacy was WMDs. There are many mentions of certain weapons being banned, including Thaleron. By what authority would anyone enforce such a ban? By a coalition far greater than the UFP alone. I think that not only the UFP, but the Klingons, Ferengi, Talarians, Breen, and many others signed on to essentially annihilate the Romulan military if the RSE crossed a line.
So the Romulans always meant to enter the war, but they were split. The early entry faction saw their best hope as being a friend of the UFP, who would respect their autonomy while supporting their welfare. They wanted the UFP to win and wanted to win with them. The late entry faction, on the other hand, wanted to leverage the Dominion War not only to downgrade the UFP, but to renegotiate interstellar law in their favor. When faced with annihilation, the UFP would concede to allowing the RSE to deploy WMDs against the Dominion, thereby legitimizing their use and handing back the Romulans’ only possible path to supremacy. This is where the Scimitar class ships came from. The prototype was built in secret, as it was illegal.
The Vreenak incident played favorably into the hands of the early alliance faction, and I suspect that pro-alliance people biased the results of the investigation. They would have prevailed politically through the end of the war and afterwards, but the factional lines remained, as did the secret plans and weapons. This is where the coup led by Shinzon but supported by the military came in.
The Romulans may have been assessing their enemy, indeed, because they may have had the most effective weapon and chose not to use it.
Romulan vessels are powered by a controlled singularity, rather than a matter/anti-matter engine. A Remote controlled vessel with such an engine would make the most powerful drone weapon in space, especially a cloaked one. It could be moved to intercept specific enemy fleets or target vessels (Clone factories), or, if necessary, once perfectly sure they had a target of a founder's home world, just such a planet. A singularity, a black hole, would swallow their enemy in one fell swoop... but might leave a considerable area of space unsafe to travel thru for a very long time... possibly forever if it grew large enough.
A doomsday weapon, perhaps....
Of course the Romulans would give the federation a single cloak and let them do as they will with it without any real oversight. They knew that as long as people like Picard existed in Starfleet, there would always be some righteous officer willing to blow the whistle on any attempt violate the no-cloaks provision of the Treaty of Algeron.
Actually, this makes a lot of sense, especially if you think about the part regarding the romulans allowing the dominion to use their space. The federation has very little intelligence assets amongst the dominion. But where are they likely to have focused their largest intelligence and espionage efforts and with a great deal of success, both with section 31 and vanilla Starfleet intelligence? The romulan star empire. Even before joint Cardassian-dominion counter-intelligence efforts, the federation would probably have had a lot more success in creating entire spy networks in romulan space than in cardassian space, even given the tal shiar's reputation. Before the dominion appeared on stage as well as the Borg, after the khitomer accords the federation would view the most likely enemy they would end up fighting the next major war against as being the romulans. The dominion does not have cloaking devices (not using them on combat ships anyway), so monitoring their passage is easy for the romulans, and probably was not even considered a secret by the romulans, making it so patterns and trends in dominion deployment through that region of space easy to detect, even if federation spies in romulan space are unable to give early warning. It does give the dominion an advantage due to creating a larger front for the federation to have to cover among other things, but the federation already had that region of space under close observation, so it would be easy to detect build ups of dominion forces. At the same time, what do you think the likelihood is that every dominion ship down to the most insignificant craft is being stalked the entire time by at least one cloaked romulan ship as it passes through their space? The romulans had a reputation for paranoia, and it would be somewhat similar to what the US's subs do with Russian nuclear subs on earth today. So yes, I think this is a highly plausible and possibly even likely theory.
I see what you're saying, and that is exactly what the US did in both world wars. They held back and waited until they could wait no longer, then they steamrolled the enemy (kind of).
From Romulan point of view keeping Federation at winning side is better and safer. UFP is known foe for them, they knew almost all about tactics, firepower, defences etc.
It’s unlikely that the Romulans had fleets sitting on their border with Cardassia. The Dominion consistently demonstrated an ability to detect cloaked ships. The Romulans weren’t so much pacifists as they were isolationists. They probably hoped that after a long, bloody war, with the Federation and Klingons, the Dominion would be too exhausted to attack the Romulans. As for attacking 15 outposts on the first day, this clearly occurred weeks after the death of Senator Vreenak. It would take that long for the Romulans to process the wreckage of his shuttle, discover the datarod, and reconstruct its contents. Then there’s presenting the findings to the Senate, confront the Dominion over the whole thing, and then move a measure to go to war against the Dominion through the Senate. The Romulans probably repositioned a number of ships onto the Cardassian border right after Vreenak’s shuttle exploded. The Romulans did suspect the Dominion right from the start (just as Garak planned). Still, even if some in the Romulan government and military saw the Dominion as a major threat, it would still have taken a major event to push the Romulans into a war with them. Having one of their Senators (apparently) assassinated while trying to warn them of an impending invasion fit the bill quite nicely.
You make a lot of sense. But what if the Romulans were happy to have Vreenak deleted?
Pretty interesting! Thanks for the upload!
This theory defo explains why when they entered the war they had such a successful assault so quickly.
I agree.
But have one question. After entering the war and with the fed agent at the top of d romulan government, why didn’t they allow starfleet use/create a cloking device.
That would be up to the Senate and it’s highly unlikely that they’d allow the Federation (a likely post war rival) to use such a strategically powerful device across its fleet. They were initially so successful because the Dominion forces were tied up fighting the Federation and Klingons. Strategically, the Romulans stabbed the Dominion in the back. Once the Dominion was able to shift forces to fight the Romulans, the Romulans adopted a defensive posture and were VERY reluctant to invade Cardassian territory. It’s one thing to attack lightly defended targets, it’s another thing to attack heavily fortified positions. We know the Romulans “struck” 15 bases, we don’t know if they destroyed them. Likely, these were quick, hit and run attacks to knock the Dominion off balance right at the start of the conflict.
The Romulans are one off my favourites. DS9 did not enough with them butbstill managed to evolve them soo much more
So they were playing 5D chess the whole time while we were only playing 4D...
The Romulans never encountered the Borg in battle. I find it odd given what happened to their colonies by the nuetral zone. You know they kept tabs on the Federation, so there's no way they didn't know the threat they posed. Picard said Romulans were counter punchers.
They had to know if the Dominion had wiped out the Federation, that the only buffer between themselves and the Borg would be gone. To me that means they didn't care about the Dominion winning, they were siding with the enemy they knew. The Federation had no intention of taking over the Romulan empire. The Federation kept the Klingons from attacking them. The Klingons had a strong desire to destroy the Romulans entirely.
So if you took away the Federation. One of three things would happen, none of them being a good result for the Romulans. The Dominion obliterates the Federation, and aims to rule over the Alpha quadrant. The founders would never look at a solid as equal. Bad result for the Romulans.
Number two, the Klingons survive the war, and the Federation does not. The dogs of war get off their leash. The Klingons aim for full war on the Romulans. Not a great outcome for the Romulans. Who wants to war with the Klingons? That's kind of their thing .
And third, the Borg arrive looking to defeat and absorb the Federation. They find they are no longer around. Do they just pack up? No, they aim to destroy what is left. Absorb what is useful. That could be the Dominion, Klingons, Cardaissians, and even the Romulans. That doesn't seem to be a great outcome either.
Best to just let the silly Federation remain. And they can plot ways to expand their empire.
I see 2 problems. 1/ The cloaking device was lost when the first Defiant was destroyed. 2/ I think there are just a few too many what if’s. I agree the Romulans could have been sitting back and gathering inelegance and waiting to pick there moment. The only fact you forgot is their arrogance. They believe in their own superiority and it is the major flaw. I think their arrogance is why they entered the war earlier. I think that Dax’s musings that it would be easy to sweep in and pick up the pieces is more believable.
The 1st defiant wasn’t destroyed until the 2nd Battle of Chin’Taka, which was later than In the Pale Moonlight.
Also, deep down, the Romulan culture is extremely warlike, so they'd be out to enter it, but not just now; when the odds and situation best favors them... they are an extremely opportunistic people as far as how their culture goes, and very aggressive... they are also a very paranoid people- practical when you factor in the number of dangerous alien species and counties out there among the stars, then paranoia about your neighbors becomes a very practical decision indeed. But, if any enemy or potential enemy shows weakness; they'll move in post-haste and begin the takeover of the weaker faction... so they're a predator state, as their national animal, a large predatory bird, clearly emphasizes in a lot of ways.
I have a theory: Vreenak led the efforts for the non aggression pact with the Dominion because he was part of the old thinking on the Federation and the Klingons. His faction also largely controlled the Praetor. And yet while powerful, were actually rather small. A majority of the Senate and indeed the Military weren't fooled by Dominion overtures and moved their forces into position waiting for Vreenak to die. I've always believed that Senator Cretak was always pro Federation as it suited the interests of the Romulans to be on Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar and Alpha Centauri's good sides and yet she remained patriotic (I also have another theory that she deliberately allowed herself to be accused of treason to throw off Neral, who was definitely anti Federation and owed his rise to Vreenak's faction, even if it risked her life and Ross knew she would've done it for Romulus and be the scapegoat). So when Vreenak died, his faction lost its leader (not giving a damn if it was the Dominion or the Federation) and the despised non aggression pact was gone. Eventually Neral was removed after the war and replaced by Hiren, who supported good relations with the Federation but was not about to go the full way in opening up to them. And it was all thanks to Sisko and Garak getting rid of the hated Vreenak.
I would say it's probably pretty accurate that the Romulans we're planning on joining. I'm not even sure if the death of Vreenak even made their plans go faster, it just provided a convenient reason for the populace to go to war. Also, if you listen to Vreenak, it seems like he is just waiting for a reason to join, just asking for the Federation to officially ask for assistance. I think that is what it comes down to, The Federation didn't have the pride to ask, and the Romulans just wanted to be recognized as an equal.
I think they were waiting for the new class of warbirds to be built and the scimitar. Imagine what they can do with The Scimitar. The ship can wipe out planets far from the front line.
I have always wondered why the Federation had to "borrow" a Clocking device from the Romulans? I mean the Klingons had them... why not ask their ally? Or better yet, make one themselves, it's not like the Federation didn't know how too. Was it a ploy to gain access to Romulan tech to see how advance they were?
Federation was ban in using them on their ship according to the Treaty of Algeron. Even if they can borrow one from the Klingons, the Federation would still need permission from the Romulans.
Basically...Romulus followed USA tactics during WWII lol. Stay at a distance till forced to enter later in the war, look like heroes, lose less infrastructure, come out a superpower.
The Romulans never had the makings of a varsity athlete.
No. This theory makes sense until you start thinking about the specifics of the plan and the logical end result at the point that they supposedly would have entered the war. You are assuming that point would be when the federation and klingons are close to defeat and severely weakened, and also assumes the dominion would be weakened as well. The point being, if the federation and klingons combined are so easily crippled and they are both larger, stronger powers than the romulans, how is it rational for the romulans to think they would then come out ahead and actually manage to win against the dominion? Even at full strength they would still be weaker than the combined forces of the federation and klingons at the start of the war and look what happened to them. You're also assuming the dominion would be significantly weakened by all of this. Breen weapon aside, even with the romulans joining as they did it was flat out stated the dominion outnumbered them more than 20 to 1
If this really was their plan it was extremely foolish and very shortsighted on their part
That said, the dominion always intended to exterminate the cardassians after their usefulness was over. Lets not forget the romulans were also a part of the whole 'lets wipe out the founders homeworld' plan. Whatever was done to the cardassians would have been done to the romulans as well. I very much doubt the dominion would have accepted a surrender or joining the dominion if they wiped out the other two major powers first
The Dominion out numbered the Klingons 20 to 1, as at the time the Klingons' ships were the only ones that could resist the Breen energy dampening weapon. Starfleet & Romulan ships were much more numerous than Klingon ones were at that point in the war. Please check your facts better in the future
I don't think the Romulans were planning on waiting much longer than they did. If the theory is true, then they were collecting information and preparing for the right moment to swoop in and take the lead.
Agreed.. If the romulans really wanted to engage the Dominian to save the day then they waited far to long. I mean the Dominian would have won long before that if Sisko did not ask the bajoran Gods for help
Oh crap you said "irregardless"
I'm contractually obligated to devour you now
messily
:)
I don't see any holes. But let me reinforce that idea about romulans operating on the border. Where did that fleet go from in purgatory's shadow.
10 points for the "Big damn heroes" reference.
How come during the combined war they still forced Starfleet to uphold the *treaty of Algeron* regarding cloaks?
Having a combined fleet with Starfleet in it limited strategic options as cloaking their ships in it would be pointless - yes the Dominion could detect cloaks, but not at long range, they needed a active tachyon scanning beam to search.
[And why didn't Starfleet fit Dominion cloak detection to all their front line ships after the war? they had the captured ships to copy from, and it would've made the battle against the Scimitar or any post War Romulan (or even renegade Klingons) far easier].
And they didn't even need to give Starfleet _their_ cloaking tech, just let the Klingons supply the cloaks on the understanding that after the war the treaty goes back into full effect and the cloaks are returned (or even surrendered to them, although Klingon tech is inferior)
Yes it would reduce Starfleet losses somewhat, but here's the point - they couldn't be sure that the Alpha alliance could win so it needed _every advantage!_ even if it helped their previous rivals.
And here's where it could help the Star Empire (besides that their combined team doesn't lose), they get concessions for allowing cloaks.
In return for letting Starfleet cloak _during the Dominion War_ they get a lot in return.
Say the post war Neutral Zone borders are changed to the Romulans benefit (the Federation colonies near their border have been devastated by Dominion attacks, so there's no settlers left to claim sovereignty).
There are other goodies they could also ask for in return for letting Starfleet use _Klingon cloaking tech …_
Side Note: Why didn't the Scimitar just wipe out Dominion worlds during the war? Goodbye Breen Homeworlds, they wouldn't have the anti cloaking grid that Cardassia had set up.
That’s easy, because the Romulans are self centered, paranoid, douches who are always looking to stab those around them in the back. Just look at the situation with the Romulan hospital on the Bajoran moon of Durna.
So Garak forced the Romulans to enter the war on the Federation's terms?
Sisco and Garak wanted the Romulans in NOW. The were concern about how many deaths a drawn out war would take.
No such word as 'irregardless'. It's just 'regardless'.
There are these days..i was surprised too.. look it up my friend :)
@@LoreReloaded "Non-standard" is another way of saying it's incorrectly used so much that scholars had to give in and give it a tiny bit of legitimacy-that doesn't make it a real word any more than, "gotta" or "all the sudden" are correct.
@@LoreReloaded no, I don't need to look it up. It's a non standard and uncouth word that has unfortunately plagued the English language since the 1700's. Stop using it because honestly it just makes you sound uneducated. It takes away from the quality of your work. Just trying to help you out.
@@Strangeries its a word accepted in modern times.
@@LoreReloaded I think I saw this conversation already - Are we in a time loop?
Did the Federation never use the Cloaking Device that Kirk stole? It seems the should have had many years to reverse engineer and then find an easier way to track the Romulans even before they made an agreement to not research it.
They did and was not allowed to use it, due to the treaty of Algeron. They did have cloaking devices for their buildings used to study other beings that have not developed the ability to travel space. I think they are given nicknames called Duckblinds.
I don't think that the Romulans was that eager to avoid a war with the Dominion. There strategy was to see how well the Federation could hold up to the Dominion and if the Federation was somehow more successful in fending off the Dominion. Then the Romulans being the oppurtunist they are would've attacked the Dominion in Federation territory. The Federation would've been too preoccupied fighting the Dominion to get the Romulans out of their territory. By the time the Federation and the Klingons defeat the Dominion the Romulans will have gained much of the Federation territory and Starfleet wouldn't have enough ships to jump into another war.
That certainly jives
I'm curious. What state was the Romulan Star Empire in between the Dominon War and the Destruction of Romulus? I really need to rewatch the TNG movies to get a sense of what the Alpha/Beta political situation was after the Dominion war. I know that even before the destruction of Romulus the events of Insurrection also dealt a major blow to the empire but effectively knocking out the majority of the current government and dealing with the Reman uprising. Had the empire recovered by the time of Romulus's destruction or was it just the final step in the decline of the empire?
Nicely done! Good video
Interesting speculation
What I don't get is how the Dominion gets from their territory to the Romulans and then back in to federation space?
I wish a Star Trek: The Next Romulan Generation would happen.