On Trial : Riker to blame for Enterprise D Destruction?
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- What's up Lore Masters,
I decided to bring back the On Trial Series... What do you think of Riker? Was he guilty?
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Spot made it and thats all that matters.
Yes Spot #8 made it.
That means Spot has one life to live.
male spot or female spot?
@@RichO1701e what ?
while i, as a native portuguese speaker, find the name spot very unfitting for a female being, everytime the gender of spot was mentioned or understood by dialogue, it was female.
The galaxy class's designers are to blame.
Bad writing. Bad writing is responsible for the Enterprise D's destruction.
I call it Plot death..they wanted her to die no matter how unlikely this result is. If the sisters still had their Vorcha then beleiveable.
The sad part is they could have done little things, minor tweaks, to make it work. Like do something to take out power to the weapons entirely, hence the need to exploit an old ship, etc.
@@BlazingOwnager yeah..executing was dumb.
It's called Plot-Induced Stupidity, or POS. They needed to make the crash landing of the primary hull happen, by any mans necessary. Including dumbing down the entire bridge crew. Isn't this how every _Enterprise_ gets severely damaged or destroyed?
That said, the Sovereign-class design is much improved over the Galaxy-class, which requires additional support stands to sit straight.
@@BNuts ah no. Original Enterprise was in a situation that left her weaken. she was heavily automated and that was her undoing. The C had 4 to 1 odds agasint her so it's just the D
My opinion: Riker was still half cave-man. They never fully cured the devolution virus.
You watched this after Shives whining about evolution in ST didn't you? lol
lol
i just rewatched that episode today LOL
Once the enterprise's plot armor was removed the ship was rendered helpless
Luminaire The plot armor is the only shields that counts. Lol
@@ageofgreen99 it's why the ship lasted seven years. But all good things come to an end.
That made me chuckle.
They initiated the plot self-destruct.:D
Yep. Only I figure she kept it, simply the plot was decided it would be more dramatic that she go boom.
Plot armor will get you killed by a kid with a spit wad if the plot says you should die.
It was so simple to correct too, there were two sisters: Lursa and B’etor. B’etor was clearly at tactical, Lursa was in “command”. What could have been would have created more drama at VERY little cost to money and time. The change: make LaForge a continuous liability during the battle.
First note, when the sisters were spying on LaForge they discover the MSDS he looked at. During the battle I think we can all safely say he probably continuously glances at it to determine the state of the ship. Now, above the shield modulation frequency on the MSDS there is other information. What if there was a Sensor Output or some other technobabble that would allow the sisters to mask their ship to the enterprise’s sensors. Now the enterprise is not only shieldless, but they’re blind to the bird of prey as well.
Now you’re saying to yourself, that doesn’t explain why Riker couldn’t remodulate the shields! Yes, you’re right.
The opportunity they lost was this: while B’etor was playing “mosquito” and shooting up the Enterprise, Lursa was continuously looking at Geordi’s visor and getting new sensor and shield modulations. She calls out these changes and they make the necessary corrections.
Geordi still too late to the party doesn’t figure it out, only gets frustrated that they seem two steps ahead of them.
Meanwhile, On the bridge, Riker is communicating with crew members he has assigned throughout the ship who are looking out portholes to try to provide manual coordinates for the bird of prey while Worf frustratingly shoots and misses. This could be a cool place to introduce cameos like Vorek or Lt Sam LeVelle. (Sitting in the theater pointing to your buddy, hey look they were on lower decks episode!)
Geordi finally figures it out and activates “tactile interface” (thank you Tuvok), tosses his visor down the warp core and remodulates for the last time.
Data says, we have them!
Worf looks up, all Riker needs to tell the Klingon warrior: Fire.
Everything afterwards happens as it happens. Explosions, warp core, crash landing.
You’re welcome. :)
That is now my head-cannon, thank you.
You are exactly correct on all points here. I've thought about this very issue at length. This was an obvious plot to get rid of the Galaxy class Enterprise-D, so it could be replaced by a flashier design in the following film. I just wish they had come up with a better scenario. There is no way a Galaxy class ship should have been able to lose to a Bird of Prey like that.
The movie is badly written in general and doesn't make good use of the characters. Not having Kirk die with the Enterrpise D (if you were going to replace it) was a missed opportunity.
1: starboard power coupling hit.
2: Geordi is looking at the station screens... oops.
3: we don't get to see Enterprise E.
You definitely bring up an interesting and indeed overlooked point.
I'm in the mind that nothing happened to Riker because he was in all likelihood being guided by what would have been standard operating procedure for child bearing ships from Starfleet.
Of course there were more effective defensive maneuvers available but protocol likely dictated that a commander not chose to put the lives of innocents into harms way in the name of the greater preservation of the ship and its crew.
But my real thoughts are that this is Trek, a franchise built on technical flubs, continuity breaks, illogical "TV" thinking, selective amnesia and a whole host of narrative faux pas that the fandom suspend disbelief on in the name of the greater story telling at play. So even though its fandom also has that heritage of quibbling over nonsensical minutia to no end, its rather counter productive to focus too much on illogical inconsistencies from a franchise where illogical inconsistency is an accepted cornerstone of its DNA.
How would Starfleet be entrusted to protect the UFP if it tucked tail and ran.
@@2bituser569 they wouldent, I think his point is that that policy only occurs on highly family oriented vessels.
tl/dr: Shitty writing is to blame
Troy... Crush wit Enterprise twice...Who let her drive star ship??
Riker at first because Bunga Bunga and Picard at second because he want to do it properly, so take the woman for this task is „logical“
_Generations_ was going for a wider audience than a typical TV episode, and as TNG had grown steadily more popular over the years, it makes sense that a significant fraction of the audience would not be familiar with a random episode like "The Mind's Eye." I'm certain I hadn't seen the episode at that point, myself.
In fact, many would say that the movie had invoked far too many one-off episodes as it was already.
Good points. Though this wouldn't alter the conclusion, I would nitpick that if they had altered the shield frequency, the Sisters would have found out about it and to what frequency through LaForge anyway and adjusted accordingly.
I agree, sir. A lot of lapses were committed and someone should have made to pay for the loss of the ship. When I first saw this movie, I also remembered thinking of what you presented here, specifically why LaForge was returned to duty that quickly. Or why they didn't modify the shields when it got penetrated.
best video u put out in a while..
I remember an interview with a member of production crew of Star Trek Generations. There it was said they had decided to destroy the Enterprise D because the ship was suitable for a series but not for the cinema. They were looking for a new, more aggressive design for future movies. And so the Enterprise E was born. Much more combat ship than its predecessor.
I think I inspired a Lore Reloaded video. So, I’m going to check this one off the bucket list. Ultimately, we know the behind-the-scenes reason the D was destroyed is because she was designed for TV and they wanted a new Enterprise designed for feature films. The easy way to write it without making Riker look so incompetent is to say that the Klingons penetrate the shields, score a lucky hit or two that still end up causing the core breach, and then have the Riker order Worf to remodulate shields and fire at will.
The D was killed by plotpedoes, fired from the Bird of Plot.
The galaxy-class always was a glass cannon. Big guns, big shield, lacking in hall strength. Klingons especially the Duras family uses spies, it's possible that unlike the dominion, the bird of prey hit vital parts of the ship. The Dominion also wanted to show how much stronger they were by taking the galaxy apart peace of peace, only to show there resolve at the end by crashing into the ship.
They couldn't keep the sets for future movies so the ship had to go. Just assume that the Duras sisters kept adjusting to the new shield modulation and had advanced shielding for their ship. Even though it wasnt shown.
People are saying to re-modulate the shields. Meanwhile on the Duras' sisters ship. "The weapons aren't effective they've changed shield frequencies!" "Is that Pitaq looking at the display again?" "Yes adjusting frequencies to match... we're bitch slapping them again!"
Edit: Hey I just remembered they did this on Voyager by having the Equinox's EMH act as a spy... this really isn't looking food for Riker.
I remember reading that the original plan was for the Enterprise D to be destroyed at the end of season 6 by the renegade Borg lead by Lore then introduce the Enterprise E at the start of season 7 for the very reason mentioned, that the existing sets would not look good on the big screen. The stated the reason that it was not done was that it would not have looked "epic" enough on the small screen so they waited for Generations.
So instead we get this crappy ending to the D that makes no sense when you think about it.
The writers destroyed the ship so they could design a newer much much smaller vessel. (More screen friendly) And this all was said in an interview so as hard as it is to believe its true. So sad to see it get destroyed after only 7-8 years in space.
I always felt the enterprise Ds destruction was unnecessary I think it was only done for dramatic effect without much thought. It's always werid to me that they never really questioned how easily the Klingons fired through the shields. Also Ive always wonder if the sovereign enterprise is secretly behind this Assassination I know it's more powerful but I still prefer the galaxy class and that's what I always picture Picard on. Destroying the enterprise has become a movie trope to reuse
They've said as much. The Galaxy class model was difficult to film with and very unbalanced. They had the Enterprise D destroyed so they could film with a better/more balanced model. Sovereign class looks better on screen as well
ShaketXavius in all fairness the Sovereign replacing the Galaxy makes so much sense, not just for the filming and cosmetic side, but for the story writing also. Could you imagine the Galaxy being around in Insurrection? It would’ve been destroyed as it couldn’t eject it’s warp core.Also image how long it would lasted against the Scimetar in Nemesis? The Sovereign took a massive pounding and was towed back to space dock. I would’ve wrote so that the 1st shot on the Galaxy from the BOP was a direct the the engines, then have the shields change modulation and the Galaxy wipe the floor with the BOP, only for Geordie to discover the warp core breach. The have the saucer separation etc.
It is explained early in the show that his visor is highly unique, and not fully understood. This is even shown in the series when the visor causes Worf to jump to alternate realities, or when Lorn experiments on Geordi after Data briefly betrays the Enterprise to feel emotion. It is also clear from episodes that the visor is designed to be able to transmit a signal at some distance. So at the end of the day no one on the Enterprise including Geordi knows everything about the visor. That limit in their knowledge creates the opportunity to discover the shield modulation for the Enterprise D.
If anyone is to blame it would be Worf, or who ever was at tactical when the bird of pray began to fire on the Enterprise. Knowing that the bird of prey had been involved in the plot tactical should have had all of the Enterprise’s weapons trained on the ship ready to turn it into space junk at the slightest sign of aggression. Beyond that no one new enough about the visor to see any tampering, and so no one could be found guilty of negligence unless they wanted to trace it all back to whom ever let Geordi join Starfleet in the first place.
The Borg didn’t originally use shields to defend their ships choosing to rely on redundant systems. This means the the comparison isn’t very accurate. Shields are then added to nullify further damage to the cube which becomes impervious to further attacks.
Lastly and I am going off of memory for a movie I have not seen for a very long time I believe that they key to the Enterprise’s trouble with the bird of prey came from the first hit. At full strength the Enterprise is more than a match for the Bird of Prey, but the well placed first shot significantly damaged the Enterprise. Enough so that their shields and weapons were not operating at full strength, or simply not operational. That leveled the playing field. Riker turning the ship is the best plan based on the overall design of the ship. Since the Galaxy class star ship can be separated into two ships one being the saucer section designed more for living quarters, and less vital systems the saucer section is less armored than the drive section of the ship. Presumably because the drive section of the ship houses engineering, most of the weapons, the main deflector, and battle bridge it is logical that of the two halves the drive section is much better armored, and therefore able to take hits better than the saucer section.
With the first shot severally weakening the Enterprises offensive and defensive capabilities Riker’s maneuvering of the ship is probably what kept the loss of life to a minimum.
Episode and time stamp..
Lore Reloaded for anyone thing in particular? Q who for the Borg not using shields initially. Time stamp the first time the Enterprise fires on the Borg. The drive section from the very first episode when the drive section is separated from the saucer section. The drive section turns to fight while the saucer section continues to far point. The visor also in the first episode while crusher is looking the visor over because blindness is such a rarity by that point, and then through several other episodes like parallels each jump being triggered by Geordie’s visor. The transmission is covered in your video, but also demonstrated in an episode when what Geordie’s visor picks up is shown on the main viewing screen. Do you have a specific part of the things I brought up that you would like an episode number and time stamp, because with seven seasons of 20+ episodes at 42 minutes an episode that might take some time.
Have you ever done a breakdown of the dynamics between Captain Jellico and Commander Riker.
Worst case scenario, they could have literally just driven right over the bop. Scale-wise i believe a bop was equivalent to a connie. Just monster truck it out of way 😂
I still don't understand why they didn't just adjust the entry angle of the saucer and skip it off the atmosphere. Seriously. No reason at all except poor writing, and bad tactics by the commanding officer.
You lost me completely after mentioning the medical LaForge received from Crusher. For trauma alone she should have ordered him to take leave, certainly she should never have returned him to duty. Crusher destroyed the Enterprise.
Riker wanted a new ship
... B-but Troi was behind the wheel! 🤣
OLD, WTH
Story wise the ENT-D was less than 10 years old.
Glass cannon, WTH
Even with shields gone it ultimately took a suicide Kamikaze attack to take out the Yamato.
So very true, unfortunately. Comlaratively, the destruction of the Enterprise in ST:III made sense. It was heavily damaged from the battles with Khan, then Scotty rigged everything haphazardly (like he does) to run on automation, and the Klingons got a lucky hit crippling/disabling it. Kirk was put in an impossible position and set autodestruct.
As for the Enterprise-D, what an ignominious end. In-universe, yes, Riker (plus Data, Worf, Crusher, all the bridge crew) were not thinking and as a result, the ship was destroyed. Plus, Picard should have gone further back in time and arrested him earlier (there was a recut parody video of him going back and arresting hi. In the Ten Forward scene, but I don't have a link for it).
Now, out of universe, real world reasons included the problems with the Enterprise-D design. It was not made by ILM and in this pre-CGI time, they found it too cumbersome and poorly balanced for filming. This drove the decision to destroy it. By the time DS9 got to the dominion wars, CGI was coming along so they were able to have all those glorious battle scenes, which included many Galaxy-class ships.
Lastly, the writing in many of the Next Gen movies was lackluster so they didn't account for things like battle strategies, etc. I'm a huge Star Trek fan and in my opinion, TNG did TV better, but TOS did movies better, though each certainly had exceptions/standouts for better or worse.
However, even if the worst of the movies are, in numerical order, 5, 7, 9, and 10, I would still take any of them over the JJ crap/abominations.
Got to agree with this video, and this is something Trek fandom generally does their best to pretend isn't a thing. Riker is useless when commanding in battle. They think he is great because he beat the Borg, but it was luck of circumstance. Riker tends to look for some convoluted way to beat the enemy rather than firing back with his whole arsenal. Against the Borg it worked because he didn't have enough firepower by a longshot anyway. Against everyone else, it lets the ship get put through the meat grinder.Before losing the Enterprise D, he managed to get it captured by a pair of B'rel class birds of prey piloted by Ferengi. Once again, he let the ship take hit after hit while only firing back once, The Ferengi even made the idiotic move of decloaking one ship in front and one behind the Enterprise leaving separate torpedo launchers to bear on each. Later he ran into similar problems when fighting the Sona with the Sovereign class Enterprise E. From what we can tell he fired one lousy pair of photons at them, splitting between targets and missing one. Compare this to the torpedo storm fired in Nemesis, or the single salvo of quantum torpedoes that destroyed a six hundred meter wide Borg sphere. Instead of using the Briar patch the way Briar Rabbit intended, he should have used the weapons the way their designers intended.Sadly this seemed to be a common problem with pre-Dominion War Starfleet officers. The Odyssey's battle with the Jem'Hadar was a joke. If they had fired more than the occasional half hearted phaser blast at those attack ships and thrown in some torpedoes they easily could have own. We have seen it doesn't take more than three photons to kill one. Still even they were more competent than Riker. It might not have worked, but at least they tried rotating shield frequencies. If Riker's hated Captain Jellico had been in command, I have little doubt those attack ships would have been cut to pieces.
Maybe the Duras sisters were watching the shield modulations through Geordi’s visor. Every time Worf changed it, they could see the new frequency being displayed.
Every 10 seconds they changed right one cue and all geordi did was stare at that screen?
@@LoreReloaded plus if the shields weren't working riker should have just said transfer shield power to weapons.
@@ericbrown6203 Yep, just like Captain Keogh of the USS Odyssey did against those Jem'Hadar attack ships. The Enterprise should've unleashed on that old rust bucket like it did in this clip: ua-cam.com/video/H_XbWq49vUM/v-deo.html
The quick fix would of been, give the Duras sisters a Ngevar class instead of a bird of prey.
Turning around does make sense. The deflector dish getting hit might have caused the entire ship to go up then and there.
But yeah, IMO the only way to explain the battle is that the warp core was damaged earlier on along with the front torpedo tube and that severely nerfed the Enterprise attacks.
And yet the back tube worked fine and can fire as much
@@LoreReloaded aye, even the back tube should have been enough.
Also, just rewatched the scene and Riker ordered a "full spread" and we only saw a single torpedo. The back tube was capable of multi fire just like the front tube.
If they wanted a new enterprise for the movies, they should have done what TMP movie did...just start out with the reveal of a new/refit ship. Seeing the ship I grew up with destroyed was harsh...and yes, I blamed Riker.
Deanna Troi was steering the ship out of orbit. Riker commanded her to do so.
I've always wondered this too. Why was This such a bad loss for the Enterprise- D? It should have won in 2 minutes. Then again the Enterprise - A lost to a cloaked Bird of prey( ST6), though in the STOS. Kirk had defeated cloaked ships a few times. Plot Armor replaced by a plot Kill is all I can figure.
Yes. As acting captain he is responsible for the ship. What about shield remodulation? How about ordering a full barrage of the Klingon ship?
Why not just warp out? Klingons have to follow at warp, and Enterprise can just throw mines and/or torpedoes out the stern.
Everything would have made sense if the Duras sisters had been in a Vor'cha class ship. That could have dealt enough damage with the first strike to take out the Enterprise's shields for good and make the rest of the fight an even one.
But no, they had to recycle footage from Star Trek VI so it was a BOP.
Riker may be a great tactician, but he's not too great at overall strategy. No wonder he refused command of his own ship. He knew where his strengths were and they were as a right-hand man. Reminds me of Jellico's comment: "I can see why he's still second in command." Or something along those lines.
With the shields down, and attacking by surprise, the BOP should easily defeat the Enterprise. As an analogy: let's assume you have a modern aircraft carrier against a WWII submarine. The modern carrier is better in every way; but the WWII sub attacks by surprise with a full spread of torpedoes, without any warning being given, and therefore there are no defensive measures being undertaken. Let's assume six torps make contact with the hull of the modern carrier. I'm not a naval engineer, but I suspect the battle is over. Even if not, I doubt the chaos on the carrier is going to give them much chance to search and destroy the ancient sub before it reloads, so maybe a second spread of torps makes contact while the Captain is trying to figure out what the hell is going on. Frankly, you could probably put a WWI German Dreadnaught against a modern carrier; if it attacks without any warning being given, the damage is going to be BAD.
Didn't they have Quantum Torpedoes at this time? Which is basically a Shaped Charge. Directing most of the blast energy in one direction.
Captain Kirk used the Enterprise to have a fighting chance to live. Kirk destroyed his Enterprise to keep a grave weapon from falling into the hands of the Klingons. Picard did not. Captain Picard is responsible for leaving his post getting his ship shot down , retrieving Captain Kirk and getting him killed over a backwater non Federation planet all to stop a nut case. He and Kirk should have beaten the nut to death in the goofy ribbon or used the ribbon to go back in time to smother the F@#$er in his crib as a baby. Rescuing Kirk and keeping him alive would have redeemed Picard. Kirk saved the Federation and Picard shit on his ship, crew and the Federation for nothing dear to any Star Trek fan. They killed the Enterprise D for nothing. If this happened in reality, Picard and Riker would have been striped of their rank and drummed out of the service. All Galaxy class ships would have been grounded for flight worthiness review and then mothballed or placed in mail run duty. LaForge would have been placed on a desk somewhere after a long period of debriefing if not charged for sedition. LaForge and the rest of the senior officers,including medical, would not log another star hour on a top of the line vessel. Starfleet would also use this incident to take apart Data for future study. Picard should have been taken out of service after the Borg incident never to return. This would be a good TV show to watch them fight for their careers and clean up their mess.
Picard was court-martialed and grounded for 10 years, despite not being at fault in the loss of USS Stargazer.
Uhura, using 23rd century equipment spotted burst transmissions. But no one on the D could detect continuous signals?
As noted, shield modulation and overwhelming firepower are both valid options.
The Court finds Lt. Commander Worf guilty of gross negligence in regards to communications, tactical, and security, resulting in loss of Starship Enterprise.
The Court finds Lt. Commander Geordi LaForge guilty of gross negligence for failing to check his VISOR for modifications after it was deliberately taken and returned to him by known criminals, resulting in security breach and loss of Starship Enterprise.
The Court finds Lt. Commander Data not guilty by reason of diminished capacity, but recommends a ground assignment and counseling sessions.
The Court finds commander Beverly Crusher guilty of gross negligence for failing to check LaForge's VISOR for modifications after it was deliberately taken and returned to him by known criminals, resulting in security breach and loss of Starship Enterprise.
The Court finds Commander William Riker and Captain Jean-Luc Picard guilty of gross negligence for the failures of their senior officers, and failing to replace them with competent officers.
In light of past actions on behalf of the Federation, all officers (except Lt Commander Data) will not serve prison time, but are hereby stripped of all ranks and privileges, and dishonorably discharged from Starfleet.
My opinion is simple
THey temporarily neutered Riker's skills for the span of a movie so they could destroy the Ent D and bring forth the Sovereing class Ent E.
Simple as that.
Plot required a new ship, so they made it happen.
It's a movie. Not real. A movie. You're debating a fictional person's decisions in a movie. A movie.
Riker suffered from a critical lack of plot armor....
I don’t see why they destroyed the D. They should have just done a major refit like tmp did to the old 1701. Maybe added a third nacelle like in “all good things...”.
Riker was guilty of dereliction of duty and incompetence in the destruct of 1701 D
Should have been court martialed and imprisoned.
I do not blame the characters. They can only do what the writers have them do. Fully 95% of all the crap that goes down in Star Trek is because of bad writing.
Convenient or inconvenient, depending on if you are the protagonist or antagonist, bouts of incompetence, forgetfulness, bad policy and just lack of good sense causes more drama and harm than anything else in Star Trek. All this and more, is why Starfleet needs to admit to being and start actually behaving like a military force and stop trying to be an adventurers' club.
#1 is it not possible the bird of prey could have upgraded her weapon capability using found Borg and other technologies??? Catching Enterprise off guard...
#2 The Klingon ship would have likly k own about Starfleet shield modulation requirements policy. And since the Empire has discovered secrets about Starfleet technologies in the past.... They may have developed a means to track or adapt to shield frequency variants.... I belive Riker deserves the benefit of the doubt....
No, the ship being massively old is a plot point
@@LoreReloaded so the fact that the Klingon ship was very old automatically means it cannot have been upgraded in some WAY??? Also if it was not upgraded... Then perhaps Riker and rest if the crew where a. Bit to at ease standing against an old war Bird... It has actually been a long time since I seen that particular ONE... Many YEARS
Some one had a brain fart during that battle
I still think the Galaxy has gotten a really bad and undeserved reputation if it had been re-equipped it with better weapons and defensive systems I believe it could have owned a sovereign class .
she and sovie are flip sides of a coin. Galaxy is tough but not as tough as she could be and out of the three known killed they were unique. Yamato, computer virus, E-D PLOT death. Odyessy kamakize.
if the D Was not destroyed in some manner would have not got the E ....it should have been done a different way and the person who came up with this way should be fired and never work in the industry again. And one thing has always bothered me with the movie is WHY THE HELL DID THEY RE USE THE BIRD OF PREY EXPLOSION FROM UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY IN GENERATIONS
I think they should of written the scene differently. Knowing how the tv series TNG goes this could of been prevented.
I just have to say it was the screenwriters that let it happen riker was always a good tactician as seen in the war games that he played against Picard in an earlier season. It was time for a new ship they just should of wrote the movie better. All worked out we got first contact they knew they had to do better next movie
It's a movie with weak trek writing for the Enterprise's destruction scene that's why it happened. But yes if we are taking real actual Star trek all your points are valid and Riker would have been able to easily defeat the bird of prey. To hell with the Duras sisters! :)
i have read the 'rotate the shield Frequency argument many times, but i always think it wouldnt of worked, if the frequency changes, Geordi is likely to see it ( remember they can see basically what he is looking at ) so the klingons would be able to remodulate their fire to the new frequency and pen the shields again . Turning around was a terrible tactical choice, but perhaps they were trying to shield the Saucer from the worst of the fire. the Klingon's are not faultless ether in the battle, they have all the time in the world to prepare and open with... one single torpedo aimed seemingly at the Deflector dish, the First torp should of been aimed Square at the bridge with the disruptors trained on which Nacelle you have the better shot at
Star Trek has been abit inconsistant with how tough Starfleet ships are without shields, sometimes they take on multiple enemy capital ships and win, others are more like what we see in DS9 where the ships are pretty much paper without shields and beams cut straight through the ship and out the other side
So your position ..is that geordi is just staring at a screen the entire battle...locked on it..and the klingons can instantly change...is your stance..
@@LoreReloaded this came from a disscussion i had a couple of years ago with a couple of people on STO, we tried to make it work within in the Scene. a Navy guy suggested that Shield frequency might be controlled from Engineering and an order to switch the frequency would go to main Engineering and be implemented from there ( like alot of things on real ships ) thus Any order to change frequency, would land in engineering anyway. like alot in Sci fi not a 100% proof. but its a theory that works within the scene.
@@Lilgoth89 we see it controlled from tactival in tng and voy
Wrong. Picard is to blame. Why was the shield modulation displayed in plane sight for the entire world to see?
I think it was on purpose so a new ship could be designed.
What's up Laura masters
Ya know, to be honest, I was all ready for some cockamamie rationale for this topic. But dude, you got a point!
Wait, wasn’t Troi driving?
Worf just needed 1 torpedo to destroy them, even though Riker ordered a spread of torpedos...
when you say enhanced sensors do you mean they still ask bob to look out the window
Bob got a friend, doubling the output of sensors mk1
@@yodaslovetoy The Mk-1 Eyeball, so reliable that it is always an option no matter the era.
Picard: Will, I leave for one hour, ONE HOUR!
And this is why Picard didn't like to leave the bridge...
Picard: "And you're not going to back down from that policy?" Riker: "No, Sir." Deleted dialogue: Picard: "Why the hell not, Number One?" Riker: "Because there won't be a bridge for you to return to, Sir."
That’s why he came back to the Enterprise in First Contact
I've been saying that the Enterprise should have been able to handle the bird of prey without shields effectively if Riker would have said..."FIRE AT WILL!" For years!
@@Joseph928100 sounds like the problem is solved either way
that would have been 'suicidal' for *William* T. Riker.
@@SkyCharger001 the Data would be in command and it would have been even uglier for the Duras sisters.
I think there would be fail safes in place to prevent a ship from firing on itself.
F I R E
E V E R Y T H I N G
Yes. A galaxy class starship against an ancient bird of prey. a galaxy starship, even with no shields, should be able to easily demolish that BOP. Don't believe me? Just look at the episode the Wounded when a Nebula Class with no shields takes out multiple Galor Class warships. A bird of prey is not as powerful as a Galor class cruiser. To quote Captain Jellico, I can see why he's still your first officer lol
Infinitely Impossible I fully agree with you there. Also in the episode “The Jem’Hadar” the USS Odessey also a Galaxy pre Dominion war refit and she took heavy damage from three Dominion attack vessels which bypassed her shields so I don’t think a single BoP which is decades old shouldn’t have done enough damage before the Enterprise destroyed it.
Good points! I think this would have worked better with a Vorcha class battle cruiser instead of a BOP. As it is its like lursa and bator rolled a 20 to crit and Riker countered with a 1. Multiple times in a row haha
This is like a WW2 Corvette versus a modern aircraft carrier. Even if it gets a lucky hit in a critical spot, it's gonna die.
Captain Jellico was the best Captain, prove me wrong!
@@sid2112 ua-cam.com/video/09TySF0FN6Y/v-deo.html
the shield frequency should have been modulating rapidly. So, bad writing
Hmm
That should be automatic no order necessary from the ship’s commander.
2BitUser
They only do that when engaging the Borg.
Easily solved too:
Riker: “Modulate shields!”
Worf: “That first shot damaged the emitter’s control lines, the system’s frozen at that frequency it’ll take damage control teams several minutes to manually repair and reset them.”
Riker: “Then keep returning fire until they’re destroyed.”
Worf: “They’re destroying our weapons with each hit sir, we’ve already lost the fore torpedo tubes and primary ventral phaser bank. If we bring the dorsal phasers to bear we risk them hitting civilian quaters sir.”
Riker: “Turn us away from them and try to keep the nacelles between us and them. We won’t be able to retreat if we can’t beat them but it might just give us the time we need to repair our shields and destroy them with the remaining weapon arrays.”
Rest of the battle plays out as normal.
@@darman12able very nice. See, just a few lines makes this whole idiocy seem plausible.
As soon as they realized that the BoP is able to pierce the shield, the very first thing they should have done is to put the shields on a rotating frequency......
Especially a crew experienced against the Borg. Similar method of attack.
And then unloaded their arsenal on that Bird of Prey.
True, but even with their shields down, a Galaxy Class could destroy that old BoP in seconds, if let loose its entire arsenal of weapons.
"Durass sisters...with the ability to field entire house fleets"
If the movie had multiple birds of prey using cloaked hit and run tactics on the D, it probably would have made for a much better final fight.
BOPs flying in one after the other, firing a few torpedoes or disruptor shots off and then cloaking as another one made an attack run from another vector. The D would be firing back, managing to knock out a few but with the sustained damage would take it's toll on the ship.
That would have made much more sense and I bet would have happened in the TV show too.
Failure to modulate shields was a court martial worthy offense.
or three words: Fire all Weapons
@@Dseagles14 Hard to believe that his first command was not to do both.
@@nunya3163 after the first shot, Riker should have obliterated that Bird of Prey
sorry fellows but its hindsight bias. Theres no violations of protocol for this 90 second battle.
The shield modulation should rotate by *default* during combat.
Ive always liked Generations, flawed but fun. However, I agree completely that this battle was contrived for plot convenience. There is simply no way I'm going to believe the D was beaten by a bop. Even if the D had no shields and was throwing popsicle sticks out of airlocks it should have annihilated a single Klingon toy ship.
I guess this is just what happens when you consider combat a "minor province in the makeup of a starship captain."
They needed to take out the Enterprise-D to make way for a sleeker, more cinema-friendly model that was easier to film.
Absolutely, the Enterprise-D being destroyed here isn't the problem. It's the fact that it was done in such a stupid and, to quote Spock, an illogical way. The flagship of the Federation, the mighty Enterprise-D, destroyed in a sham of a "battle" against a Bird of Prey that was outdated when the Galaxy-class first flew. This could have been fixed simply by giving the Duras Sisters a more powerful ship due to whatever connections they still had in the Empire coupled with upgraded weapons thanks to Dr. Soran and having the Enterprise-D fight back properly but be overwhelmed. The "clever" trick to defeat your enemy only really works when your enemy has a real advantage over you. Enterprise-A modifying a torpedo to zero in on the prototype Bird of Prey's exhaust works because that ship could fire while cloaked, a serious advantage over both Enterprise-A and Excelsior. Kirk and Spock using the Enterprise's console to force Reliant's shields to drop worked because Kirk had been caught with his pants down and Khan had managed to all but cripple the Enterprise in the opening shots. While the trick here of using Worf's knowledge of Klingon ships to find a weakness works and forcing the Duras' ship to cloak to eliminate their shields is perfectly fine, it doesn't work because even with full shields, Enterprise-D shouldn't have an issue overpowering them in a straight fight, even with her own shields down. At the very least give the Duras Sisters a better ship (maybe a new battle cruiser that could then be showcased over on DS9) and let the Enterprise-D go down swinging rather than the starship equivalent of getting shanked by a granny while doing almost nothing to stop it.
VegetaLF7 also those examples that work from a writing prospective don’t need a lot of technobabble to understand unlike what happens in generation’s.
@@alexbennett7018 Exactly. You can have technobabble, so long as you put in a layman's explanation too. There was a great example of this early on in TNG. There's a scene where the Enterprise is attempting to flee something and they jump to warp...except they aren't moving. Geordi is running around from station to station in Engineering, reading out various statuses of the assorted systems and just generally spouting technobabble nonsense...but he then follows it up with something like "all systems are functioning, we should be going like a bat out of Hell!". That tells the audience that whatever the technobabble was, it was saying the ship is normal right now, so the problem is from somewhere else. They kind of do similar in Generations, but to a lesser extent. Worf and Riker are discussing the Bird of Prey and they imply that their shields are tied into their cloak. Worf tells us it is a retired design because of that defect. All he needed to do was specify "if we can force them to engage their cloak, their shields will drop"
It would have been less insulting if the Sisters were leading a squadron of BoP's.
Oh, it wasn't a problem with the exteriors of the Enterprise-D. It was the interiors - they were designed for standard definition television cameras in the 80s. When shooting on film they were noticeably cheap looking so they needed a way to excuse new sets for the follow ups.
The sleek Enterprise-E was a nice benefit.
bad writing and a merchandising desire to redesign the ship killed the Enteprise D
I don't mind telling you all that when I first saw this film as teenager, I was welling up at the ships destruction. I grew up with this ship, TNG got me into ST. To watch this ship, the Enterprise, the Flag ship of the fleet, destroyed by a bird or prey nearly had me in tears. I imagine that Picard, on quite nights, still thinks back to his days as Captain of this magnificently beautiful ship. This ship truly did "Go, where no one had gone before"
I never liked how the enterprise was destroyed in this movie, the galaxy class should have been able to crush that klingon ship
I read somewhere that a torpedo could destroy a Galaxy Class ship with it's shields down. Plus, it's the Klingons, so
@@tareqn.gaming1622
> I read somewhere
so what? That's out of universe material.
>Plus it's the klingons.
If they actually acted like klingons instead of romulans then maybe they could have had a chance, maybe if they set a collision course they could destroy the enterprise but they didn't do that. They only won because Riker was an idiot.
@@ThePoshboy1 situation sorter (basic)
They have your shield modulations and have opened fire - (remodulate shields/return fire)
Return fire - blow up
Remodulate shields - now you have a chance
They remodulated their shields - (retreat/use visor)
Retreat - lose code
Use visor - find new shield modulation
New shield modulation found - (fire at random spot/destroy shield emitters)
Fire at random spot - 'hit bridge - kill everyone/hit nothing important - extra damage)
Destroy shield emitters - (target bridge)
No shields! - (retreat/fire)
Retreat - leave Picard on planet and no backup plan
Fire - get toasted
But you know, this is basic. There are probably more options. Yes, Riker was being an idiot, but so were the Duras sisters.
The *Actual* Riker Manoeuvre:
How to destroy an almost state-of-the-art starship in combat to an inferior dustbin
Funny how the Enterprise is one of the fastest ships in the fleet, but takes 3 days to break orbit. They should have ran at the bop and jumped to warp, circled back around, and came back hot.
You have to remember at the time of the Enterprise D, Starfleet had no real war to fight. The Khitomer Accords were signed and the Klingons became an on again off again ally.
Because of this short sighted and ridiculous philosophy the Federation adopted, starships were now carrying families in a giant luxury hotel. I think I speak for any who have served in the military this is NOT how you run a ship. No families on board, food is in a group mess hall no damn personal whatever. It's all about promoting teamwork. You live, dine, sleep, and work with your team and others as a whole. This was the way of Sparta and it is a good foundation for a military.
So why did a 20 plus year old Klingon BOP destroyed the Federation Flagship? Simple, they tried to think that accords and laws would be followed and nobody would fire on them. *Facepalm* peace above all else.
Maybe the war prevented his decommission?
Admiral: I hear Riker crashed a perfectly good ship. Hmm. We should definitely...
Intel Officer: Sir! Fleets 5 and 7 have been wiped out. 98% casualty rate. We're running of of command officers in this sector.
Admiral: -YOU KNOW WHAT, CHANGED MY MIND, HE'S FINE, STICK HIM ON AN OBERTH, WHATEVER.
The writers should be on trial for wills mistakes.
Theory: after the Ds destruction and some of the crew get commissioned to other posts, like Worf, Riker got cut from the command program for another decade. Thats, why he is still there from First Contact to Nemesis ;P
And the judgement says "His patterns show two-dimensional thinking!" ;P
+Liopleurodon
I laugh at your superior intellect!
Liopleurodon - I think it would actually be b/c of the events of the Pegasus episode.
@@thefurrybastard1964 Forever an ensign is just not good enough, that poor sod may still have some hope of becoming a lieutenant jr. Grade. Can't we chain him to Insanoways latrine and then wall over the entrance? If we wall over the door to her office too, we can definitely label it a net positive following Kant!
I get that the writers had to destroy the Enterprise D in order to make way for the Enterprise E for the next movie but the way they wrote it was kind of meh.
that's also true. it's always tradition in Startrek. whenever a new enterprise is about to be introduced, they destroyed the former one. with exception enterprise B, i guess.
They didn't have to destroy the Enterprise they could have just decommissioned it
They just wanted a new Enterprise for the movies.
Even though they had crazy mods for Enterprise D like the 3 nacelle Dreadnought model that was used in an alternate reality. I could have seen them update Enterprise D to a higher spec just like the Constitution Class from NCC 1701 to 1701A
Even without shields they should have owned that old ship.
That's what blows my mind about the HORRIBLE writing!
The way this movie was written, both Riker and Picard would have faced a withering court-martial, and would have been drummed out of the service for loosing the flagship in such a sloppy and irresponsible way, regardless of their past accomplishments. They should go back and digitally remake that section of the movie. Instead of just one BOP, it should have been the sisters calling in all of their remaining allies.... make it a swarm of of BOP's plus a Vorcha class & maybe even a renegade Romulan ship from the Klingon civil war fiasco, all attacking the D. They could still write-in the destruction of the D, but make it a worthy death! And, instead of Riker looking like an inept commander, he could have pulled-off a brilliant tactical move to destroy the Duras rebels once and for all, even if the Enterprise eventually succumbs to injuries in battle. That or something along those lines would have left fans feeling much better about loosing the ship, and still allowed them to do the saucer landing scene, and moving on to the E, since they were hell-bent that they THINK they needed a new ship design (bit that's a whole other can or worms, lol)
@@danscholl9972 This, and while they are at it they could have given Kirk a much better ending. Maybe he could have sacrificed himself by taking the helm and ramming the Enterprise D drive section into the enemy ship while the Saucer escaped. They could have done the same Saucer landing this way too, because that was the only thing I thought was well done in the movie.
It's like saying I could beat a prime Muhammad Ali in a fight if I cut off his pinky
No mention of the reuse of the destruction scene of the BoP from ST6? Shame on you LoreHead.....
that's not unexpected or unusual.
Considering they messed up with the uniforms, I'm not surprised recycled footage was utilised....DS9 did same in finale
My opinions.
1.) Geordi's visor should have been inspected. Lol, I said that the first time I watched the movie and immediately thought of Mind's Eye.
2.) Yeah, they should have immediately modulated their shields.
3.) The Enterprise was hit with at least three photon torpedoes and a dozen or more disruptor shots. Hardly the glass cannon everyone claims it was. Established dialog in previous episodes episodes such as the Nth Degree and others have established that one photon torpedo blast could destroy a starship. And other episodes have proven it.
4.) Riker and Worf were negligent not to alternate shield frequencies if indeed it was established procedure.
One thing: BAD WRITING. This movie was meh at best and the writing was mediocre. Riker's poor tactical response was for plot and tension, nothing more. Don't even get me started on how bad the writers screwed up and disrespected Kirk.
Well they set out to fuck Shatner over. He didn't want to do the movie when he saw the script. They told him if he didn't do the film they would have just killed Kirk off camera. So he went along with it to give it some dignity.
It was bad writing, they had a couple reasons to destroy the ship, one the model was too cumbersome to handle during shooting and 2 they wanted to show the saucer landing on a planet. That is why the enterprise was destroyed. It would have been better if 3 ships had attacked instead of one. This wouldn't be out of the question since the Durass family still had influence, I'm sure they could have had 3 ships at their disposal to ambush and take down the Enterprise without shields.
No mater how we try to spin this the Enterprise should have disabled the out of date BoP in ONE shot. It's disabled more powerful vessels in a single volley before during the show. Even then a full spread of photons would have ended that hunk of junk in short order.
I also dont buy the "trying to disable the enterprise" defense either, no dialogue in the movie hints at a loss of weapons. Generations is just an incompetently written movie that dumbs down EVERY character for the sake of drama ignoring seven years of competence in order to add an unnecessary action scene.
See, I feel the whole battle could have worked had the Duras Sisters simply shown up with a brand new battle cruiser rather than an oudated "Kia-of-Prey" as SFDebris likes to put it. Give them a ship that makes them a worthy foe, maybe say it was upgraded by Dr. Soran, but keep the bit about forcing a cloak to drop the shields. Make the Duras' a serious threat so that the clever trick used to beat them actually is justified rather than have the entire audience screaming to "just fire back!" because there is no way the Enterprise-D should lose to the Bird of Prey.
@@VegetaLF7 That or not use the Duras Sisters who were at best joke villains at this point. Sadly it was all to save money after they spent all the budget on that holodeck scene apparently.
" HE BATHED
NOW HE'S WANDERING THE SHIP
HE MUST BE THE ONLY
ENGINEER IN STARFLEET
THAT DOESN'T GO TO
ENGINEERING "
I've been saying that ever since "Generations" came out back in '94. In the military, whenever one of their vehicles (tank, humvee, fighter jet, ship, etc) is lost, damaged, or destroyed, isn't there always some sort of inquiry into how and why it happened? The second the Duras sister's torpedoes breached the shields, Riker should've ordered the shields to be remodulated and rotated. Hell, it was his and Shelby's idea to do that back in "Best of Both Worlds." I also have issue as to why the warp core wasn't jettisoned before it breached. Scotty, O'Brien, Torres, Trip, and Stammets would've been like "I could reroute this to this", but Geordi was just "nope, nothing I can do."
They couldn’t jettison the core since the one thing that couldn’t fail in such a situation (the magnetic interlocks) failed. Geordi should’ve suggested the shield modulation since he was the guy that actually developed it.
Yup this is stupid.. if this was against a older Klingon cruiser then it would make sense.. Like say the Klingon equivalent of a Ambassador Class. Something less embarrassing.
TV Tropes uses the phrase “being handed the Idiot Ball” to cover those circumstances where the writers need a character to do something desperately stupid in order to make the plot work. Riker appears to have had it shoved down his throat.
Picard also could have had the Nexus drop him further back in the timeline to stop Soran before any of this nonsense happened in the first place.
Remember what happened to The Odyssey it took two jem'hadar fighters have one had to kamikaze to destroy it an odyssey Shields what is effective against him for weapons at that time
I wasn’t convinced until your point at the end about the standard practice of remodulating the shields during battles. The Enterprise should not have taken more than 2-3 hits.
Rikers Klingon friend from season 2 was on that ship he killed his own friend played by Brian Tompson
Yeah but since he ended up with the Duras Sisters...he probably wished for an honourable Death
Riker hesitated because he had hoped for a threesome with the sisters.