Hey guys just FYI as this didn't get added to the video but is just as important. You will have two XP bars, one is yellow, one is purple. The yellow one is your base level while the purple is your pvp rank. Your pvp rank is just as important as your level to actually wear better gear. You will want to always strive to keep your pvp rank higher than your actual level if you can.
The graphics are muddy and the animations a little janky, not to mention it's very glitchy, meaning you can die from tripping over a rock, right after you recover from graphical lag, other than that it's a really fun game, the pvp "seems" pretty balanced considering the factions some what mirror each other, like the video mentions.
Hey man, thank you so much for your videos on Return of Reckoning so far. I briefly played on launch years ago, but my rig at the time couldn't handle it and the whole thing went under long before I could get one with the oomph to do so. I had such high expectations for the game and fondly remember following all the video previews and interviews with that community manager guy, I can't remember his name right now but if you know, you know. Had no idea the game was so readily available to play again until stumbling on one of your other videos. Hoping to get stuck in with Da Boyz again before long.
This is helpful, I also recently found WarHammer online. I never knew it existed but recently got into the books and it led me down a rabbit hole to found this game. It’s been fun! Thanks for the content
Great video! About PQ (public quest) they are all composed like this: You hover with you mouse on the chest icon on the map and it will tell you the PQ tier number and difficulty. For every tier there are 3 PQ, easy, normal, hard. THe easy PQ can all be made solo by almost every class even if you are at just one level higher than the mobs. So you can just farm those easy PQ for tokens and obtain set items. The only difference in difficulty in PQ, beside being more difficult and requiring more player in normal and hard, is the chance to obtain a more precious bag as reward with more tokens and purple items, but you can get good rewards with easy PQ
I used to play this when I was much younger during it's original retail run. I had NO IDEA it was still around, I thought it was done an dusted. I am so happy to get back into this.
Just wanted to say, great video bro! Got me to install RoR for myself. I’d been looking for the feeling I got when I first started playing wow back in 2005. This looks like the closest I can get(maybe some EverQuest).
For me, understanding that once you hit 16, it's you and the rest of the world, took awhile. Wish there was one more bracket before being thrown in with the big dogs. Scaling just doesn't cut it when gaming experience, connections, and organization, gear setup, etc., is such a factor. Guess I was just spoiled playing back in the hayday of the live game.
It's an unfortunate necessity. As the game doesn't consistently keep enough players in the second or third tier. To keep those tiers active with proper level players only. That was a big problem when it was played commercially. And contributed to the games death.
I did play few years back, should get into it again. my game has prolly been deleted from the finite space on their server. well no matter, might play the good guys this time.
How are the other "nodes"or tiers or whatever they are called, for example is T2, T3 pretty full? at least on the weekends? Are the "Battlegrounds"or RvR queues pretty fast? or is it just T1? I figured that would be full due to new players trying the game. When I played retail, PvE besides the open story areas, was pretty much non existent, but I have read that there are actual dungeons in the game? Are there a lot of PvE things to do now? While the RvR Lakes can be fun, if or when they are active, I like to PvE sometimes too.
There are dungeons, public quests and other pve content that is relevant at later levels. After level 16 you play in a combined tier system. So you will be doing tier 4 content and usually scenario quests to level for awhile until you get access to the gun bad dungeon.
T2-3 is grey era of the game, 2-5h Scenario pop times, or optionally you can act as renow pinata as rr70+ zerg groups keeps killing you less than 1 second back to back, PQ's are option but then you need to deal with huge renow cap at the end and are only doable for some characters due some are more solo friendly than others.. @40 there is only couple dungeons and pretty much same as it was in retail, dont know if LotD tombs (or what ever) still exist since seems like whole LotD system has been heavily reworked. And especially at week ends you better stuff yourself in premades or might as well just not log in at all. - Dont think many new players will continue their journey even to 40, endless reroll cycle in T1 or just quit.
Is the installing procedure more straightforward now? What discouraged me over the last handful of years is how confusing the installation process was!
To say this game is also 15years old…. I played some yesterday. The fact you can go pvp/rvr from level 1 is fun. No crap, just look on the map where the fight is going on and help pushing. I played maurauder at release. But chose empire now.
I remember playing the beta for this game and the full release... This game was way ahead of its time in terms of class archetypes and did expand on the WoW Classic formula.
I played few weeks ago and I really liked the overall tone and gameplay but sadly I gave up after a couple of hours because I literally didn't understand what I was doing,I felt overwhelmed and so I quit. I'll watch this video and maybe I'll be able to give the game a second chance.
I played this game originally from launch and foe a full year, way past the majority-exodus the game population saw. Getting back into this server has been a treat, but I have found it woefully quiet? Socially? I can't seem to find any English-speaking guilds to connect and play with. For reference: I actually know or knew 98% of this great instruction video, so I am not a helpless noob!
Hey there! If you're playing on Destro side Entropy and Chaos is a great NA based guild. You can also join The Goblin Workers Union if you are in Europe or Australia. Hope that helps! Reach out to Zedfyr she can help point you in the right direction for either guild.
Do you still need to get into those city sieges in order to be able to grind for your best gear? That mechanic is why I stopped playing, because I would wait hours for the city siege and then not get in, infact I never got in :(.
Most people I speak to avoid spending war crests because they're so much more necessary at 40. People rvr for RR and save the crests to buy their first set at 40 so they aren't super under geared. They farm low level PQs that do not give xp or use scrolls to depress their CR, use the war tokens for leveling gear, and make sure their RR is always higher than CR. You need at least RR45 or 50 at rank 40 to buy the first war crest PVP set.
I tried the game and I really like pretty much everything, especially the art style and the classes,but I don't understand a lot of stuff like for example the mobs that are extremely passive is this something that is caused by the game still being in alpha or they are supposed to be like this?
Seems its completely RNG, there is days that are more lively than others and sometimes it just depends about some saddle sniffer otaku making podcast about bad rework that leads into another mass flee among comic book guys.
So weird, I was just looking for a up to date new player guide a day or two ago for ROR. Reinstalled last night and was gonna jump in blind after many years.
I recommend addons ezguard and guardpack if you are having trouble keeping up with your guard targets. These help keep track of your guard target's location and will auto target important people for you to guard.
blackguard is a tank, harder to play than a chosen due to having more buttons/mechanics. sorceress is damage but always needs healer because otherwise you damage yourself too much. witch elf is only good at single target, so not always needed in big group content. dok is the worst healer but also easiest, dok damage specs are garbage.
Appreciate the video. Question for anybody to answer, when doing oRvR in T1 I've been partaking in, I've sat in a zone and fought/captured objectives for the whole duration of the event and seen my faction win but I'm not sure what kind of rewards I got. Do you only get renown/career xp, or is there a chance to get items and currency as well? Did I just not see the rewards?
How do you break through the early game grind? I don't know, maybe it depends on time of day, but when I play I cannot get into scenarios at all, and open world pvp for T1 usually has like 10 people in it, skewed one side usually, so it's not cool big owpvp it's a gang team killing you over and over. I end up leveling through quests which are boring as fuck and dropping the game afterwards.
Practically thats how the game is, most of these videos are just baits to lure new players in for making them as tempting as possible.. Thats why these are mostly from T1 and they usually show just some prime time pushing even its mostly just as you described most of times.
you have to grind for 100s/1000s of hours. until you get max level and max gear. thats the only point you will have any fun, otherwise you just die to higher level ppl.
The Marauder is the MDPS mirror for the White Lion, while the Squig Herder is the pet mirror for the White Lion, and the Squig Herder is the RDPS mirror of the Shadow Warrior. There's a fair amount of that kind of cross-pollenization of roles/mirrors between the 2 factions.
No, leftover player base compose of smart ass comic book guys which makes this game toxic AF unless you wanna feel like being in kindergarten again which suits perfect for these peter pans escaping the reality of growing up.
New player guide: get to CR 16, get thrown into T2/4, repeatedly get your head bashed in by the majority of players who have max renown/gear. This project will never gain any significant amount of new players until they do a soft relaunch/new server. But they won’t because the devs cater/cave to all the vets who want to maintain their epeen.
Hey, I understand the feedback. I have been playing in tiers 2-4 for awhile now and been streaming/making videos. It is very possible to play and enjoy these at a low level. You just have to gear properly and use tailsmans and potions. You can check out my tier 2-4 guide to avoid being a punching bag. Just for reference last night running a four man on my level 17 Swordmaster I was able to tank and handle multiple geared level 40s hitting me with no issues.
I don't know if you're still replying to comments on here, but I've been looking at RoR and I have a massive hankering to play it, I'm a Dwarf Paladin Tank main on World of Warcraft and I love PvE, I notice you've put a LOT of emphasis on PvP in this video, as someone who doesn't enjoy PvP, should I still play RoR or am I setting myself up to be let down? Like is this game 90% PvP and 10% PvE? It felt like you glossed over it very quickly.
I address this more in my other videos hence why I did not really address it as much here. You are correct though the game is 90% PvP and 10% PvE. There are a few dungeons and public quests but most of them are done to save currency on pvp tokens. The game is about pvp first and foremost and if it is not your thing you may not get what you want out of it.
Thank you for your reply! Thats good to know, I'll see how I feel because I still do love the setting of Warhammer and may give it a go at some point, but I did still enjoy your video! Liked it and subscribed 👍
No don't start pvping right away, if you are new read and do the quest for like the first 5-8 levels to learnt he basics and then at 9 you get free set and then pvp
just some advice, there is so much to learn. just make shorter vids instead of trying to cram everything into one. its impossible and many have low attention spans (myself included}
It came out in 2008 and was shut down in 2013. It was a primarily a PVP focused MMORPG. Ironically WoW borrowed (again) a lot from Warhammer Online when it came to its visual update. I'm not a fan of Return of Reckoning, but I did have a lot of fun with Warhammer Online when it was active.
@@elemair9210 for groups/warband scale, slayer was when i played by far the best. i haven't played much this year so it might be different, but slayer was OP for like the 3 years i played 2020-2023. but if you are doing solo then your only real option is archmage/shaman or witchelf/witchhunter. most classes are completely garbage on their own.
Hey guys just FYI as this didn't get added to the video but is just as important. You will have two XP bars, one is yellow, one is purple. The yellow one is your base level while the purple is your pvp rank. Your pvp rank is just as important as your level to actually wear better gear. You will want to always strive to keep your pvp rank higher than your actual level if you can.
Well this was well timed, I literally started installing this a few minutes ago. Never played it before.
The graphics are muddy and the animations a little janky, not to mention it's very glitchy, meaning you can die from tripping over a rock, right after you recover from graphical lag, other than that it's a really fun game, the pvp "seems" pretty balanced considering the factions some what mirror each other, like the video mentions.
@@puppethound say no more, you had me at janky animations.
@@someonebritish6326 its game from 2008, thats ended live servive around 2012
Great and you already looked for someone to tell you how to play... 😂😂😂 idiot.
Press L to find open groups. Also under L you can setup auto-loot for things you need or greed. saves some clicking.
Great video btw!
Thanks for sharing tips! And thanks for your kind words.
Ok good to know
Hey man, thank you so much for your videos on Return of Reckoning so far. I briefly played on launch years ago, but my rig at the time couldn't handle it and the whole thing went under long before I could get one with the oomph to do so. I had such high expectations for the game and fondly remember following all the video previews and interviews with that community manager guy, I can't remember his name right now but if you know, you know.
Had no idea the game was so readily available to play again until stumbling on one of your other videos. Hoping to get stuck in with Da Boyz again before long.
You're welcome friend have fun!
Paul Barnette
@@fu102 Legend.
thx m8 i played Warhammer online back in the days (even preordered it) now im back in thx to your videos. Keep it up
New RoR player here this helped me a lot thanks :D
Sooo happy you made this!! Thank you! Need as much help i can get 😅
You are so welcome!
Just downloaded the game; and starting to play. Quite excited, and thanks for the video - really informative.
This is helpful, I also recently found WarHammer online. I never knew it existed but recently got into the books and it led me down a rabbit hole to found this game. It’s been fun! Thanks for the content
This came in very handy, just started the game a few days ago. Thank you very much. ❤
Started playing the game because of your videos, thanks :)
Have fun my friend and welcome!
i just started playing after watching you last video a few days ago, so im very happy you made this!
Great video! About PQ (public quest) they are all composed like this:
You hover with you mouse on the chest icon on the map and it will tell you the PQ tier number and difficulty. For every tier there are 3 PQ, easy, normal, hard. THe easy PQ can all be made solo by almost every class even if you are at just one level higher than the mobs. So you can just farm those easy PQ for tokens and obtain set items.
The only difference in difficulty in PQ, beside being more difficult and requiring more player in normal and hard, is the chance to obtain a more precious bag as reward with more tokens and purple items, but you can get good rewards with easy PQ
omg i absolutely loved this game , downloading now , had no idea it was available somewhere
i did not even know about this game till today this guide will help
Thanks for this video. I have been searching for a video like this for over a month and you hit the nail on the head, Thank you.
Thanks to your videos. Back in the game again having a blast!
I used to play this when I was much younger during it's original retail run. I had NO IDEA it was still around, I thought it was done an dusted. I am so happy to get back into this.
Just wanted to say, great video bro! Got me to install RoR for myself. I’d been looking for the feeling I got when I first started playing wow back in 2005. This looks like the closest I can get(maybe some EverQuest).
Just started playing yesterday...man, such many WoW Classic vibes...very likable in many aspects. Enjoying the game!
Thanks for putting this together
Wow great guide. I learn a lot I had forgetting since launch.
I loved to play this game back in the day!
For me, understanding that once you hit 16, it's you and the rest of the world, took awhile. Wish there was one more bracket before being thrown in with the big dogs. Scaling just doesn't cut it when gaming experience, connections, and organization, gear setup, etc., is such a factor. Guess I was just spoiled playing back in the hayday of the live game.
It's an unfortunate necessity. As the game doesn't consistently keep enough players in the second or third tier. To keep those tiers active with proper level players only. That was a big problem when it was played commercially. And contributed to the games death.
Great video thank you
More videos like this plz! Now for Tier 2-4! :D
I installed this after your last vid and this game is great!
Can you do a vid explaining castle sieges?
Give me a bit of time, and I'll work on it.
Love the warhammer vids, could we have a tank guide at some point please? ❤
I'll see what i can do for sure.
Could you create a playlist of all your Warhammer guide videos? Really appreciate your work👍
Done, hope that helps.
@ thank you Sir ✌️
I did play few years back, should get into it again. my game has prolly been deleted from the finite space on their server.
well no matter, might play the good guys this time.
How are the other "nodes"or tiers or whatever they are called, for example is T2, T3 pretty full? at least on the weekends? Are the "Battlegrounds"or RvR queues pretty fast? or is it just T1? I figured that would be full due to new players trying the game. When I played retail, PvE besides the open story areas, was pretty much non existent, but I have read that there are actual dungeons in the game? Are there a lot of PvE things to do now? While the RvR Lakes can be fun, if or when they are active, I like to PvE sometimes too.
There are dungeons, public quests and other pve content that is relevant at later levels. After level 16 you play in a combined tier system. So you will be doing tier 4 content and usually scenario quests to level for awhile until you get access to the gun bad dungeon.
I'll also add the combined tiers of 2 3 and 4 are more active than even tier 1 is.
T2-3 is grey era of the game, 2-5h Scenario pop times, or optionally you can act as renow pinata as rr70+ zerg groups keeps killing you less than 1 second back to back, PQ's are option but then you need to deal with huge renow cap at the end and are only doable for some characters due some are more solo friendly than others.. @40 there is only couple dungeons and pretty much same as it was in retail, dont know if LotD tombs (or what ever) still exist since seems like whole LotD system has been heavily reworked. And especially at week ends you better stuff yourself in premades or might as well just not log in at all. - Dont think many new players will continue their journey even to 40, endless reroll cycle in T1 or just quit.
PvE is completely dead content.
PvP is only active during EU prime time.
Is the installing procedure more straightforward now? What discouraged me over the last handful of years is how confusing the installation process was!
To say this game is also 15years old…. I played some yesterday. The fact you can go pvp/rvr from level 1 is fun. No crap, just look on the map where the fight is going on and help pushing. I played maurauder at release. But chose empire now.
I remember playing the beta for this game and the full release... This game was way ahead of its time in terms of class archetypes and did expand on the WoW Classic formula.
It was, just not technically and content wise. The fluidity WoW had killed almost all other competitors every single time.
I played few weeks ago and I really liked the overall tone and gameplay but sadly I gave up after a couple of hours because I literally didn't understand what I was doing,I felt overwhelmed and so I quit.
I'll watch this video and maybe I'll be able to give the game a second chance.
I played this game originally from launch and foe a full year, way past the majority-exodus the game population saw.
Getting back into this server has been a treat, but I have found it woefully quiet? Socially? I can't seem to find any English-speaking guilds to connect and play with.
For reference: I actually know or knew 98% of this great instruction video, so I am not a helpless noob!
Hey there! If you're playing on Destro side Entropy and Chaos is a great NA based guild. You can also join The Goblin Workers Union if you are in Europe or Australia. Hope that helps! Reach out to Zedfyr she can help point you in the right direction for either guild.
Do you still need to get into those city sieges in order to be able to grind for your best gear? That mechanic is why I stopped playing, because I would wait hours for the city siege and then not get in, infact I never got in :(.
Most people I speak to avoid spending war crests because they're so much more necessary at 40. People rvr for RR and save the crests to buy their first set at 40 so they aren't super under geared. They farm low level PQs that do not give xp or use scrolls to depress their CR, use the war tokens for leveling gear, and make sure their RR is always higher than CR. You need at least RR45 or 50 at rank 40 to buy the first war crest PVP set.
Just in time for me to start.
Faith, steel and gunpowder!
I tried the game and I really like pretty much everything, especially the art style and the classes,but I don't understand a lot of stuff like for example the mobs that are extremely passive is this something that is caused by the game still being in alpha or they are supposed to be like this?
boxes can also be returned to forts
I've tried this game several times and couldn't find much PvP action at all, when are the best times to play as someone from NA?
Seems its completely RNG, there is days that are more lively than others and sometimes it just depends about some saddle sniffer otaku making podcast about bad rework that leads into another mass flee among comic book guys.
Helps being in a zone that isn’t locked down. If the nodes are locked people won’t go there.
So weird, I was just looking for a up to date new player guide a day or two ago for ROR. Reinstalled last night and was gonna jump in blind after many years.
2:41 I can be an orc. Nice, I´m in.
Is top gear still obtainable only through capital sieges? I remember having played this game solo and it was a really painful aspect of the game.
They changed the gearing system. It now uses war crests to buy gear and you just need the proper renown rank
So in RvR areas when things get crazy, how exactly do you tank in pvp with people jumping all over?
I recommend addons ezguard and guardpack if you are having trouble keeping up with your guard targets. These help keep track of your guard target's location and will auto target important people for you to guard.
How do you think the population is? I look on the page and there's around 300 or so. Is that enough?
Hi at peak hours we break 1k players. 300 is usually due to the down hours which is between 10 PM-2 AM CST.
I just joined the game wooo
I was hoping you'd share what you had learned, but i didnt think it would happen this soon.
I am addicted.
Whats the best dark elves class?
blackguard is a tank, harder to play than a chosen due to having more buttons/mechanics. sorceress is damage but always needs healer because otherwise you damage yourself too much. witch elf is only good at single target, so not always needed in big group content. dok is the worst healer but also easiest, dok damage specs are garbage.
hi just wanted to know how is the player count for this game?
Very strong
…can I still redeem my collectors edition swag?
Appreciate the video.
Question for anybody to answer, when doing oRvR in T1 I've been partaking in, I've sat in a zone and fought/captured objectives for the whole duration of the event and seen my faction win but I'm not sure what kind of rewards I got. Do you only get renown/career xp, or is there a chance to get items and currency as well? Did I just not see the rewards?
You will get warcrests (Buy pvp gear with) Renown and xp.
@@javajawa2157 Cool that makes sense. Is there a standard number of crests you win or is it also tied to your interaction points?
@@maggyinahat Tied to interaction and if you win or lose.
Is the game playable for solo PvE players who are only interested in quests and lore? Is PvP forced?
Yes sir but honestly all roads do lead the RVR PVP Open World PvP in arenas and such
How do you break through the early game grind? I don't know, maybe it depends on time of day, but when I play I cannot get into scenarios at all, and open world pvp for T1 usually has like 10 people in it, skewed one side usually, so it's not cool big owpvp it's a gang team killing you over and over. I end up leveling through quests which are boring as fuck and dropping the game afterwards.
Practically thats how the game is, most of these videos are just baits to lure new players in for making them as tempting as possible.. Thats why these are mostly from T1 and they usually show just some prime time pushing even its mostly just as you described most of times.
I'm getting instant ques all this week as a new player. More or less constant rvr in t1.
you have to grind for 100s/1000s of hours. until you get max level and max gear. thats the only point you will have any fun, otherwise you just die to higher level ppl.
i remeber there was a big hurdle to start the game ebcause it has problems with most antivirus software is that problem gone?
I have had no issues with that.
I hear tell that this stuff is still popping off in Return of Reckoning. Anybody got a fairly up to date class guide on class mechanics?
The Marauder is the MDPS mirror for the White Lion, while the Squig Herder is the pet mirror for the White Lion, and the Squig Herder is the RDPS mirror of the Shadow Warrior. There's a fair amount of that kind of cross-pollenization of roles/mirrors between the 2 factions.
is there a pretty good player base? i would be interested to start playing
No, leftover player base compose of smart ass comic book guys which makes this game toxic AF unless you wanna feel like being in kindergarten again which suits perfect for these peter pans escaping the reality of growing up.
I was playing the other day and I was alone in the starting area most of the time except for one other player roaming around clueless like me.
whats the name of the guild bro ? I made a choppa :)
Agony is my guild.
New player guide: get to CR 16, get thrown into T2/4, repeatedly get your head bashed in by the majority of players who have max renown/gear. This project will never gain any significant amount of new players until they do a soft relaunch/new server. But they won’t because the devs cater/cave to all the vets who want to maintain their epeen.
Hey, I understand the feedback. I have been playing in tiers 2-4 for awhile now and been streaming/making videos. It is very possible to play and enjoy these at a low level. You just have to gear properly and use tailsmans and potions. You can check out my tier 2-4 guide to avoid being a punching bag.
Just for reference last night running a four man on my level 17 Swordmaster I was able to tank and handle multiple geared level 40s hitting me with no issues.
I always feel like my computer is going to get hacked everytime I got to the download link lol
The game is perfectly safe. I take cyber security very seriously.
❤
I don't know if you're still replying to comments on here, but I've been looking at RoR and I have a massive hankering to play it, I'm a Dwarf Paladin Tank main on World of Warcraft and I love PvE, I notice you've put a LOT of emphasis on PvP in this video, as someone who doesn't enjoy PvP, should I still play RoR or am I setting myself up to be let down? Like is this game 90% PvP and 10% PvE? It felt like you glossed over it very quickly.
I address this more in my other videos hence why I did not really address it as much here. You are correct though the game is 90% PvP and 10% PvE. There are a few dungeons and public quests but most of them are done to save currency on pvp tokens. The game is about pvp first and foremost and if it is not your thing you may not get what you want out of it.
Thank you for your reply! Thats good to know, I'll see how I feel because I still do love the setting of Warhammer and may give it a go at some point, but I did still enjoy your video! Liked it and subscribed 👍
No don't start pvping right away, if you are new read and do the quest for like the first 5-8 levels to learnt he basics and then at 9 you get free set and then pvp
how safe is it to install the game
?
Its perfectly safe. I would never recommend anything I would not do myself. I take cyber security very seriously.
Add addons guide also
Healers beyond broken need massive nerf.
just some advice, there is so much to learn. just make shorter vids instead of trying to cram everything into one. its impossible and many have low attention spans (myself included}
Order 100x better. chaos beware
lies, propaganda.
@@javajawa2157 I wish
Lol, bet that 99% of players has toons both side and majority tends so switch which ever side is dominating, thats why the games imbalanced AF.
@@javajawa2157 Yes, accurate description for this video.
WoW for Pvpers
i really dont get is this a mmorpg? when it came out? it looks like a wow clone but in a postive way
It came out in 2008 and was shut down in 2013. It was a primarily a PVP focused MMORPG. Ironically WoW borrowed (again) a lot from Warhammer Online when it came to its visual update.
I'm not a fan of Return of Reckoning, but I did have a lot of fun with Warhammer Online when it was active.
The class balance is rubbish. The devs have failed quiet badly on that.
Are bright wizards still broken?
@@mherrj everything in ROR is broken. they don't really have any clue what they are doing, been that way for years now.
If everything is broken, nothing is
So is there an op class and if so which one?
@@elemair9210 for groups/warband scale, slayer was when i played by far the best. i haven't played much this year so it might be different, but slayer was OP for like the 3 years i played 2020-2023.
but if you are doing solo then your only real option is archmage/shaman or witchelf/witchhunter. most classes are completely garbage on their own.