If I can add something : maxing out explosive headshot first is really important on Expert Coal Town as there are giants spawning with so many medics it's actually possible to miss some if Explosive Headshot is not maxed out.
Intellectually, I know this, but I need the "ding" to remind me to actually use the ability, and the meter fills so fast that I never remember to try it to see if I like using a partial meter.
I'm genuinely kinda shocked that Sniper was considered so bad for so long. He's so obviously bonkers you'd think most people would've figured it out shortly after MvM launched.
I’d argue that Sniper is the most powerful class in MVM. Even stronger than the Gas Passer because the Sniper won’t die after getting each explosive headshot.
@@mikobscura6696 I know, but I was making a little joke. I still think the Explosive headshot is just as strong (if not stronger than) the Gas Passer, because it can be used more often.
Just a day ago in rottenburg i did 158k damage as sniper and we lost the last round even though i basically kept the area clear of robots, first thing they blamed was me
That's called just having a bad team, probably the stereotypical "META" noobs as well, the kind that you really only ever find on Two Cities, not all 2Cities players are like this though...
just for the fun of it at 27:27 where you show the score board i calculated how much damage you did as a percentage of total damage (ignoring tanks) and you did 70.8% of all the damage
I'd like to take a moment to mention (if it hasn't been already, or if it hasn't been noticed) that Explosive Headshot damage can be crit boosted. This can give the Cleaner's Carbine another use case, in which you spend your Crikey meter to ensure onetaps on small Soldiers or even overhealed Uber Medics. Even with only level 1 of Explosive Headshot and a mini-crit boost, you exceed 200 damage. In fact, you can see it for yourself at 20:04, where Underscore lands a headshot on one of the Giant Medics, and deals a 203-damage Explosive Headshot to the other Medic (who happens to be either covered in Jarate, marked for death, or both).
Jump height is an underrated perk. It’s cheap and can be used to perch yourself onto high platforms so the Spy bots can’t reach you (you don’t even need to Razorback now).
By the way, the +2 health per second upgrade (even when fully upgraded) actually synergizes with the passive healing rate of the concheror and the cozy camper, allowing you to heal up to +14 health per second...
it's more complicated than that. sentry buster explosions work like backstabs in that they deal 4x the current health of anything in range (except tanks which are immune and giants which take 600 damage) which means that the only way to survive is to have all blast resistance upgrades plus another damage resistance on top of that.
Great tutorial. Something like this should have been made years ago. Well, there are dozens of written tutorials already, but new player will barely read them. Buuut, i really love movement speed on every char + 1 jumping high. I know, it is a moot point, but it just feels sooooo good. :)
This guide literally explains why charge means very little for MvM Sniper. It's less "Sniper when full charge" and more "Sniper when 1 tick of explosive headshot"
Fun fact about Big Rock: It isn't just the layout that's sniper friendly, there is a bug in the bot AI that can effectively remove any risk to the sniper. Basically, the AI uses a navigation mesh to determine where bots are able to 'see' any given player. Generally this works fine, you have LoS to a bot, it can see you, if your in cover, it cannot. The problem is on Big Rock the rocks in the cave do not have a navigation mesh. This results in the game not updating a players position in the mesh if they jump onto the rocks. This means if you duck into that little alcove behind the large rock, then jump onto it from there, the bots will not 'see' you until they make it ALL the way around to that side of the rock. It's dumb, and a blatant exploit, but that doesn't stop people from abusing it.
Depressing fact: Huntsman's damage upgrades don't actually give you +25% damage per tick. Like it wasn't bad enough... What's next on your list? I feel like Pyro is pretty high priority due to how many bad players tend to gravitate towards him, but Medic also has a lot of mechanics that many fail to utilize.
I remember playing with a godlike sniper on 2cities as scout and being out moneyed by him. How to play damage scout without caring about money : play with a good sniper
hi underscore you said the hitmans heatmaker does less damage when you shoot things that dont have heads (tanks / buildings) this isn't true, and you can even see it in your own video (0:42) (50 damage +100% = the 100 damage you see in the video, at no point does the -20% damage on body shot come in)
Oops. You're correct. Will add an erratum. The only excuse I have for this mistake is that the "silenced" shots for the Heatmaker make it "feel" like you're doing less damage lol.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel It's likely a reference to the UA-camr Pride who made the Expert MvM guide. He mentioned the 5 Sniper 1 Engie strat in that video.
Sniper also makes the most use out of nav mesh exploits which do exist on some valve maps and require a step by step setup usually. (bigrock is a clear example of the nav mesh not working properly as all the large rocks don't have any.
@@woop6727 if you're behind any obstacle that the robots don't have nav meshes to properly detect players with or they haven't walked onto navnodes that you are near, they don't shoot you. rottenburg has a godspot as well, but one requires a fair bit of finesse with teleporters.
The Sniper, aka: The Better Spy. Also not liking the shade towards medic, he may not be as important but he sure as hell makes life a shit ton easier in MVM.
The opening literally shows sniper is one of op options, because it felt like sniper was the cheater to the Mann vs machine game mode, and he didn't even need hacks.
Tbf most of the time explosive headshots do take a bit of skill but if you talk with people who don’t have their head up their arse they’ll probably agree both are bad balance wise
i just have a question about your weird hatred of refunding. if a 0 tour engineer joins the game, gets disposable sentry and metal regen as his only upgrades, and the wave is an absolute slog because of his incompetence, do you honestly think it's better to not have the option to tell him to refund his stuff and teach him how to play properly, for the sake of requiring absolute perfect planning of your upgrade path/class choice from the very start, and no flexibility over the course of a mission whatsoever? what are we gonna do, intentionally fail the wave so he can change his choices and make the mission potentially take even longer? that sounds like absolute hell with some of the teammates you can often get in mann up. beyond that, i often find myself disappointed when i have to play engineer because it's a class that never has the freedom to swap, i wouldn't love this gamemode anywhere near as much as i do if that kind of restrictiveness was a constant theme. using your knowledge to adapt on the fly is infinitely more fun than essentially nerfing yourself early on or doing things like using the carbine and bush with no swing speed upgrades when you might be the only one on the team who can kill the tank. I'm sorry but if my team is unable to kill a tank while i'm playing a class that can do effectively nothing to it, and i see my high tour sniper, someone i'm supposed to be able to rely on in this scenario, swinging at the thing with stock speed i am leaving that very instant and finding a new lobby. difficulty isn't the only measure of fun, refunding adds fun through flexibility and reducing the headaches of matchmaking. i can see how playing with no refunds could be more fun with a stack of friends who are coordinated, but as a solo queue player having it is infinitely more fun and saves a lot of headache. no refunding should be a coordinated and agreed upon challenge, not the default state of a game where the quality of your teammates is wildly inconsistent and would cause more pain in matchmaking than already exists.
In the first scenario specifically, one incompetent player isn't enough to make a mission a "slog". If it's that bad, then he's probably not the only dead weight on the team. If it bothers you enough and you don't feel like kindly explaining to him that he's not ready for Advanced/Expert, then that's what the Kick mechanic is for, but again, he's probably only part of the problem. Also, criticizing teammates' upgrades mid-game is kind of a moot point now, since Valve removed the upgrade inspection feature last year. Do you ask all of your teammates to read off all of their upgrades over the mic when you lose a wave? "Perfect planning" of upgrades was never required in MvM, but not requiring any planning at all is dumb and defeats the entire purpose of the upgrade station. If you really do like this glitched, neglected version of the game mode, then good for you, but a lot of people really liked it back before it was reduced to one step above a sandbox-mode robot slaughter cutscene, back when players had agency, their decisions mattered, and winning felt like an accomplishment (even though it still wasn't that hard). And we miss Expert mode. It wouldn't be so bad if someone had added a difficulty level above Expert to compensate for all of the power creep on the human side, but alas. Generally, your complaints seem to be about you not liking Co-Op video games and not liking losing. You don't want to have to rely on your teammates in Team Fortress 2, and you feel entitled to win even when your team isn't up to the challenge. Valve has made a lot of concessions to the latter viewpoint over the years. MvM was balanced around 6 players. But for now you still need teammates in Co-Op mode. I'm sorry about that. FYI: I haven't played with a coordinated group of friends in like 6 years, and even back then it was a rare thing for me. I always queue randomly and deal with the teammates I've got. And I rarely lose. For this reason, I am skeptical when people blame their "incompetent teammates" for everything. Wait. Re-reading that wall of text... *_did you really just say that a high-tour Sniper NOT upgrading swing speed on his Bushwacka was enough to make you ragequit?_* Lol WTF. Look, this might get lost in translation because I made an excessively-detailed video series about how to play MvM at a high leve, but MvM isn't actually that hard and there's plenty of room for making stuff up as you go. There is no need to nitpick your teammates and throw a tantrum if they don't use the strategy you think is optimal. And, if so many random lobbies you join are bad and struggle to win... well, you're the common factor, aren't you? *_TL;DR: Please just understand that the game was good the way it was, a true co-op experience with multiple difficulty tiers for different skill levels, before Valve dumbed everything down into a glorified single-player campaign so that even bad players could farm loot from Two Cities quickly and easily._*
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel i haven't gotten around to reading all this yet because it's a doozy but let me just get a couple things that stuck out to me addressed first. "And, if so many random lobbies you join are bad and struggle to win... well, you're the common factor, aren't you?" buddy. if i am in a lobby with all single digit tour counts, i am outdamaging everyone, outscoring everyone, as scout, wave 1, without even having damage upgrades yet, i'm pretty sure i am not the problem. you've said before that you don't play mann up much and it really shows with this comment in particular, bad players are common, trying to throw that back at me as a gotcha is laughable "If it bothers you enough and you don't feel like kindly explaining to him that he's not ready for Advanced/Expert, then that's what the Kick mechanic is for, but again, he's probably only part of the problem." for engineer especially i cannot disagree more, dispenser placement (and teleporters as well, though that one is harder to fuck up too badly) is so insanely important and it WILL hold everyone back immensely. I'm shocked someone as experienced as you doesn't realize this, it seems to be coming from a place of dramatically overestimating how much easier refunding makes the game, as if all cooperation is just unnecessary and pivotal classes have their importance reduced to nothing all because people can swap upgrades around. I think the same holds true for a scout missing 100+ money every wave, but to a lesser extent. Really, any class that isn't focused on just DPS will drag the team down immensely if they aren't doing their job, and if the teams overall skill level isn't that high they might not be able to make up the damage loss of one really bad player either. Any one bad player can ruin a lobby depending on a variety of factors regardless of what class they are playing. One time i let a 4 tour spy just do his thing and ended the mission with him at only 4k damage, simply because we were able to essentially 5 man with ease. Might as well let him have his fun in that case, but that's a rare example in my experience. Most of the time a player not pulling their weight that bad will make the mission a drag. Anyway, teaching someone how to play is infinitely preferable to telling them to just leave or kicking them, something that is much harder to do without refunding. I've had countless scenarios like my example where the engineer didn't interact with the team once, and i either left or we kicked him, but i've also had many times where i or the team told the engineer what he was doing wrong and what to upgrade, he took our advice seriously, and started doing his job properly almost immediately. It can be that easy, all lack of refunding would do is make it take much longer for people to be able to learn, and through a pretty artificial means of restricting their ability to retry and recognize their mistakes. it's healthier for the playerbase to have the option to teach people who will listen as opposed to being forced to chase them away, and dramatically reduces headaches in solo matchmaking, which was the main point i made in favor of refunding. "Also, criticizing teammates' upgrades mid-game is kind of a moot point now, since Valve removed the upgrade inspection feature last year." It really isn't. You can see a disposable sentry has been placed. You can go up to the dispenser and see if it has range upgraded. You can look at buildings' health. You can observe the scout's jumps and see if he has jump height. You can also see a heavy getting insta killed by crits when he should have bought crit res. I don't think i need to elaborate further.
Glad to hear you can play Scout. I'm just confused as to why a skilled player would be be so eager to ragequit as you expressed in your previous post. Out of curiosity, what part of the world are you in? Sometimes I vaguely wonder if lobby skill level varies region. In NA, it's easier to find winning lobbies than it was when MvM was new, somehow. Far more commonly than "headaches", I come across "over-qualified" servers where the mission is far too smooth and boring. In my opinion, modern MvM is too easy to be fun *_without_* at least a couple incompetent players, due to the aforementioned power creep. And just because I don't play Mann Up much anymore doesn't mean I don't ever. Bad players existed in 2012, too, and they didn't have the benefit of 10 years' of accumulated online guides, but they managed to win, anyway. If skill levels had actually deteriorated *_that_* much since the time I played multiple games per week, then I would blame Refund and Gas Passer. But actually what I see is that the game has gotten easier and easier. Valve hasn't nerfed anything in awhile, but the high-tours keep finding more and more mini-exploits. Yes, The Engineer is the worst class to have a bad player as if there is no other Engineer, and some maps are a pain without a decent one. Dispenser and Teleporter placement are issues that are easily fixed without resorting to Refund, though. I would hesitate about criticizing player upgrades based on what's visible in the overworld. The MvM community has always had a habit of picking on the most visible bad teammates (e.g. Engineer with his very-obvious building placement) while ignoring other offenders (e.g. Soldiers with everything in Rocket Specialist and Clip Size), and I think what your propose would only make it worse. It is extremely common to see teams yelling at the wrong guy e.g. bullying a player who may have done something "wrong" but who is still doing okay overall, while not placing any blame at all on someone who's being downright useless. I'm not in the habit of looking over my shoulder at my teammates in the middle of a wave to find out what they're doing wrong, either, so watching players to figure out what their upgrades might be is an avenue of criticism that isn't really open to me. I teach through these videos, not by being a backseat driver.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel "I'm just confused as to why a skilled player would be be so eager to ragequit as you expressed in your previous post. " if the team is at least competent enough that i can carry them and have fun doing so, i'll do that. had a game the other day where i did exactly that, 50k damage on tanks (next highest was half that) and 90k damage on bots as scout, only outdone by the heavy who was probably the most competent player on the team. not the best DPS scout in the world by any means but i'm pretty proud of that. but some teams are just too bad and some players too unteachable to be worth the time staying in the lobby, most obvious example being an engineer who refuses to move his dispenser to where people can actually access it. It's not so much me being eager to leave and more me just, leaving when a team is bad enough that i can't have fun. "Out of curiosity, what part of the world are you in? Sometimes I vaguely wonder if lobby skill level varies region. In NA, it's easier to find winning lobbies than it was when MvM was new, somehow. Far more commonly than "headaches", I come across "over-qualified" servers where the mission is far too smooth and boring. In my opinion, modern MvM is too easy to be fun without at least a couple incompetent players, due to the aforementioned power creep." I'm NA. Winning lobbies with very high tour players aren't rare but not common either in my experience, and rather than them making the mission boring i just find them refreshing, stomping a mission every now and then is fun in the same way that turning on cheats in some singleplayer game every now and then is fun, variety is nice. If it was a very frequent thing i would agree with you but it isn't common enough in my experience for it to ever make the game less enjoyable. For the last bit, it's less about me specifically looking for these things and just, them being immediately noticeable. Dispenser range is so crucial that you can instantly tell if the engi has it or not on most classes, and an early wave disposable sentry will almost always be built and visible. I agree with your point here overall, I've had many lobbies where the sniper or spy was blamed for us losing the wave when their performance on scoreboard was equal with or above the rest of the team, simply because they're more skill based classes and easy to pin blame on if their tour counts aren't triple digit, and me and my duo queue friend (the sniper in question) were the only ones to see who the real problem was in all of those lobbies. But i don't see what that has to do with visible upgrades like dispenser range, people blaming the wrong players for dumb reasons is absolutely a problem but it doesn't mean you should not say anything when the engi buys disposable sentry on wave 1 and you immediately see it regardless of you looking for it or not.
Okay, other than getting so many bad servers ("stomping" the robots seems to me to be the norm these days... or at least it was a few months ago. I took a 3-month break from TF2 after Christmas, partially because of literal travel), I've experienced most of what you're talking about and can sympathize. It was mostly the "high-tour Sniper without Swing Speed upgrades = disconnect" that got me. That's starting to drift into orthodoxy. There are parts of this game mode or indeed any game, competition, form of combat, etc. on which reasonable people can disagree. Even for a pro-Refund Sniper, whether or not to buy Bushwacka Swing Speed is situational. There are millions of possible scenarios, and he has to make an educated guess as to the "optimal" choice. It's not really a decision to second-guess a person on.
MvM was originally like an RPG. You had to pick and choose and plan ahead. Some classes, weapons, and upgrades would be sub-par for certain waves, but that was OK. It's a co-op game, so your teammates should pick up the slack for you on those waves. This is where the entire concept of having a diverse team with 6 different classes came from. Now, since you can just re-spec whenever you want, teams can optimize their classes, loadouts, and upgrades for each wave. If players actually use this ability, it's like playing with 7, 8 , or even 9 players instead of 6. It depends. On some missions, it's not that OP, but it's extremely broken on others. The most common examples are probably 1) pulling a glass-cannon Phlog Pyro out of nowhere for tank waves and 2) using The Spy on the 2 Expert waves where he's OP, but playing another class for the rest of the game.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel I see. I was never around for those times - hell, I never even knew of an age without the Gas Passer and I barely knew the times when you could see others' upgrades - so I don't know how MvM was meant to be or used to be. Thanks for the explanation
It's not bad. I really like that he advocates for understanding the mechanics of *_why_* things work and being flexible instead of just blindly following a set of rules. He focuses on Support Scout, but it's in the original context of a team that has 3 Heavies and no Medic, which is where Support Scout is actually viable. He also feeds into the "Heavy is bad against tanks" myth a bit, and I take issue with the idea that Medic is bad in Expert. Sure, Gear Grinder isn't "designed around" Medic, but that's why he can be kind of OP. Two Cities is easy, and it's easy to outplay the robots regardless of whether there is a Medic or not. I think the Projectile Shield is much more game-breaking in Expert.
3 роки тому
0:49 is that a halloween themed version of bigrock?
9:51 how is the shield unbalanced, it gives medic an option to cause damage and it doesnt even work against pyros and spies and you gotta recharge it all the time On casual... Yeah ,that thing is op, for a good reason is not added there but some community servers have it enabled for some reason
It is essentially an ubercharge for your entire team that lasts 12 seconds, charges faster than a normal uber, deals good damage for what is supposed to be an entirely support class. If you are having issues with pyroes and spies (very minor threats) while your team is protected against everything else then it is probably their first time in MvM.
@@bernardo-x5n Hell, the Pyrobot problem can be mitigated by the Medic buying Fire Res; then shield bashing them like a megachad. Pyrobots can't be a problem if you're standing on their metal corpses. A good Shield Medic on the QF can hard carry teams.
It's just because it's the most recent. The tutorial videos consistently keep getting views long after their release, so the older ones have more. I think The Engineer is actually the least popular for its age. Meanwhile, I think this video is the only non-Shorts video I ever made to get almost 1,000 views in the first 24 hours.
A like to know more about these community maps flying tanks sentry tanks are the hard or easy. are the maps creative good for beginner welcoming ping friendly Are the hours long can you only play with friends ?
So far, I've been releasing one of those videos about every 6 months. Ideally, I'll have it out in June or July. However, I've been having serious PC issues this week, and I'd like to move house before then, so we'll see. It takes me about a month to create a tutorial once I've got all of the footage (which I don't).
Yes. I abandoned July and plan on just doing the traditional Christmas morning release. I haven't done the voiceover or started working in the video editor, but the script's about half-written, and I've built up a nice library of labelled, organized clips. As long as I keep working at a steady rate, I will be done on time.
You're not wrong. Explosive Headshot Sniper is definitely OP for very good players, but it's probably balanced for the *average* player, which might be for the best, since it's impossible to evenly balance a class-based shooter evenly across all skill levels at the same time.
@@bernardo-x5n The problem is that even with max damage and charge speed Sniper is still more underwhelming against giants than classes such as Heavy and Spy who also need less money to reach full damage potential against them.
I actually released more videos this year than I ever have before. But I do these in my spare time, without contracting out for freelance help, so my release schedule will never be as frequent as a professional UA-camr.
I do gotta wonder what your beef with Refunding is. Sure it makes the game easier, but literally everyone has access to it and it's simple existence dosn't invalidate groups of robots or soldier robots, unlike Gas and Shield. All Refunding does is mean you don't have to think in the long term as much, and IMO it's significantly better for a lot of community events where you have no way of knowing what's coming up. Imagine you've been investing into bullet resistance in the early waves since there's been a lot of heavies, and you've been putting the rest into your weapons, and then the next wave is crit soldiers.
You literally explain the reason why in your post: It makes it too easy and eliminates the need to plan ahead. The entire concept of the Upgrade Station doesn't make sense anymore without the need to plan ahead. *_Any balanced game requires tradeoffs, and Refund virtually eliminates that in MvM._* By having unlimited respec, you effectively have more money overall, and money is perhaps more important than the robots in determining difficulty. Playing the same wave with 400 credits vs. 4,000 credits can mean the difference between Expert and Intermediate. Your example of why you like Refund is actually rather pedestrian. Some tryhards will abuse it so they can use the most OP class and loadout for every single wave, doubling or even tripling their effectiveness as a player. Needless to say, that's extremely game-breaking in a game mode that was designed for only 6 players to begin with.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel You need to go out of your way to abuse refund, and abusing refund is a skill in of itself. It's not like Gas Passer or Shield where you can break the game by simply hitting a single button. Even at the skill level I'm at in MvM (Which I'd say is relatively high after over 1200 hours in TF2, most of which was spent playing MvM), I don't have nearly the skill to do what you described. I only ever use it to respec resistances or remove a situational upgrade like slowing mad milk. Even swapping weapons isn't that bad, since a lot of weapon swaps you might want to do are with weapons you weren't gonna upgrade to begin with. Sure, in theory Refund could be incredibly busted, but in practice it really isn't just because most people either don't know how to or just dosn't care to use it in that way. And if you're at the skill level where you can abuse refund, you're probably good enough that doing so would be total overkill and you could effortlessly beat any official wave with relative ease. It's kinda like Sniper in that way (Ironic given this is the guide I'm commenting this on). Sure, theoretically they could be this gamebreaking force that makes the Gas Passer look like the Gas Passer in regular TF2, but in practice it's much more balanced just because most people aren't good enough to do that. Refund makes MvM infinitely more approachable for beginners, which given the fanbase, almost anything helping beginners get into the game is great. In my opinion, I think Refund improves the game more then it hurts it.
It's not at all hard to abuse, though. It's extremely easy, and even noobs do it a regular basis, if more clumsily than the "tryhards" I described. The resistance-optimizing you describe is one common way. Other common ways include switching to Phlog Pyro for tank waves, switching to The Spy for Giant Medic waves, switching to The Sniper on Steel Gauntlet waves, and even switching off of the trashy "meta" Scout on the last wave of a mission. But yes, experienced players can abuse it even harder than that with more complex tactics like weapon swaps and weird upgrade builds that wouldn't work well on most waves. Originally, Refund seems to have been intended to allow a one-time switch in order to encourage people to try more classes or to keep people from being "stuck" mid-mission in a class they didn't know how to play. Which was arguably fine. In its current form, though, it's just bonkers OP. Refund is unnecessary as a difficulty modifier. MvM already has multiple difficulty levels, all of which are accessible to casual players, even more so now that so guides like this one exist. Meanwhile, actual elite players need to play them with handicaps to keep even "Expert" interesting. It also makes MvM less of a team effort. If I'm playing The Soldier and carrying a team of 5 deadbeats, but then encounter a wave that counters The Soldier (not enough to make him ineffective, just enough to keep him from carrying a bad team), it gives a way out. The old way forced some of the deadbeats to actually step up and help if they wanted to win. Now, the MVP has the option of just toggling onto a different class to avoid the need for teamwork. *_TL:DR: The Refund Exploit (I don't know if you've seen my earlier videos where I mention this... but it's literally a bug in the game that's been turned into a "feature" to help Valve sell MvM tickets faster or something) is not conducive to an interesting, challenging Co-Op experience._*
@@UnderscoreGamingChannelI guess. It still feels like a subjective thing, though. I think it's better for playing with randoms in boot camp where it's much harder to get a coordinated team, but is likely worse for high level play in things like Mann Up where a coordinated team is much easier to find. In my personal opinion I think it makes the game mode more fun, because... well... winning is fun. Refunding makes MvM easier, but it dosn't make it a cakewalk like gas. You still need to try. It isn't gonna give you the ability to die every five seconds but still have damage rivaling the Heavy. Refunding dosn't totally kill the challenge of MvM, even if it makes it easier. Even if we disagree on this topic, I should note that I do really like your guides otherwise. I've had a lot more fun as Scout since I watched your guide on him.
9:46 lmao "skill" No it doesnt Even my 5 yo cousin can shoot heads with sniper ,its not hard, specially on mvm considering there is bigger targets that move even slower than normal THAT MAKES PREDICTABLE MOVES, on casual at least there is more chance to miss becuase enemies are humans, they dont make the same moves over and over and ppl can still change their interp but on mvm unless your waves are just big scouts that arent covered in milk or jarate then its almost impossible to miss a shot if you are not getting hit by a crit and explosive headshot pretty much encourages shooting the slowest ppl since they will be surrounded always by either lot of small robots or some giants, its definetly more op than gas passer specially if the focus mode is on or you use Sydney sniper which is most of the time considering most of the ppl WILL use the meta Tf2 is just not a game designed with a high skill base in mind like csgo does ,is not a hardcore game, if you want something hardcore just complete whatever expert mvm without a single upgrade Ppl bring up that "skill" nonsense when in reality tf2 has no high skill base in mind...
I like your vids but you seem to hate the refund mechanic too much. to me it's a nice QoL because it feels frustating to use waste an upgrade like resistance and not have it in the wave
That's exactly why I hate it, though. The entire point of the upgrade system is to have players make choices that matter for the rest of the mission. To weigh costs and benefits. Should you get the upgrade that will make the current wave easier, or the upgrade that will be more beneficial in the long-term? Do you run The Spy because there's a wave that The Spy can cheese, or do you avoid The Spy because nobody on your team can play it well? Being able to constantly re-spec to a near-optimal loadout makes missions way easier than they're supposed to be and literally makes gameplay more one-dimensional. Every wave becomes "the easy wave". Since the entire Valve canon of official missions was released before the Refund Glitch was introduced (and since custom missions try to follow Valve difficulty conventions), it's effectively a massive nerf on the entire game mode. You basically cannot play missions at their original, intended difficulty unless you get a group of players to agree to not refund. Or you get a server owner to turn it off. I'm a nerd. I like the "planning" part of games. The Refund Glitch-turned-feature eliminates that. And breaks the game. I still have fun playing it, but MvM is technically a broken, abandoned game mode.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel It makes mission easier but it also makes them less frustating, which should be the entire point of a video game. Also every PVE game will become easier once you play long enough since it's all the same stuff over and over again, just ask anyone who played dark souls a bunch fo times. And unless you have every wave memorized, you can't really know what you're gonna fight next round. I'd hate this gamemode if i had to pay for some resistance early on, only for it to never appear in the final waves. that's between 450 to 900 credits completely wasted. And if you really memorized all the waves, you're already a veteran which means the game is easier regardless of refund or not Also it becomes easier for newer player to play the game in a better, because by judging the quality of the average boot camp lobby, some new players are clearly lost (which is valve's fault cuz there's no tutorial). Imagine if a noob engie gets the disposable sentry and shotgun firing speed as their upgrade, should he be handicapped the entire match because he made a shitty decision? Not really. MVM isn't a balanced game mode regarding some weapons where you could go unoptimal loadouts and still win in advanced diffficulties (especially for newbies), because some weapons are clearly inferior to one another. That's why there's a refund mechanic. I understand you hate it from a challenge perspective, but to me being able to respect and change how i play each wave is how i enjoy this game, because having useless upgrades feels like a waste and i can always go some meme builds if my team is good enough anyway. And i've been playing the game mode since it came out.
Look, I know that it's good for video games to accommodate different skill and/or time investment levels, but MvM already did that. There were 3 main difficulties plus "Normal", which is basically tutorial difficulty. People who've wanted easier gameplay have always had it. The Refund Glitch knocks everything down a notch, though, basically taking Expert away from those who wanted it. And now there's a "useless" Intermediate mode because Advanced was turned into the new Intermediate. The Refund mechanic as it exists today is in the game because the original, tamer version broke, and Valve's "janitor" at the time didn't know how it was actually supposed to work when they "fixed" it. Or they did, but they knew they'd make more money from Two Cities farmers by just leaving it broken. Remember, I primarily play Custom MvM, so I go into most waves blind, just like a newbie. I don't mind not knowing what to expect. It's what makes MvM fun. And I don't usually buy many resistances until late-game anyway, at least not for most classes, so I guess I'm not very bothered by that. Though I did play a weird (hard) custom mission last night where resistances seemed to be better than weapon upgrades.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel No one selects their propper difficulties lol otherwise you wouldn't have people who started playing this month on advanced and expert missions (as i'm writting this, i'm playing an advanced mission with a pyro who didnt upgade his ammo and is using the fire axe against a tank...). MVM is already frustating when your teammates are dogshit, imagine if you were stuck with useless upgrades for the rest of the match. All for what? In the name of skill? lmao Just saying, i'd also stop including this segment in later videos. Not only it defeats the purpose of a guide, by handicapping yourself, but it comes off and needlessly bitchy
The only class which needs resistances is heavy, because he can't dodge and should take the aggro, for other classes resistances are low priority, expect for crit for all classes and fire for medic(because flamethrower flames pierce through it(also the bison but it's custom mvm exclusive)). So if you upgrade properly you will get resistances only at late waves, where usually all types of damage is present and even if it doesn't 300 credits shouldn't make that much difference. Also pyro can buy resistances, because he is very cheap to upgrade, everything you need is 4 damage and 1-2 hok, maybe 1 ammo, that is 2250$ at maximum, but movement speed and jump height are still higher priority
![[TF2] Ranking EVERY Sniper Weapon in MvM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/e4odtQyYQ9w/mqdefault.jpg)
If I can add something : maxing out explosive headshot first is really important on Expert Coal Town as there are giants spawning with so many medics it's actually possible to miss some if Explosive Headshot is not maxed out.
I can usually get it to work with 2, but yes, that 2nd wave of Cataclysm is one of "those waves".
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel agreed
It’s not
@@scoutfingers yes, it is.
It is really rare and to make sure you can throw jarate at medics, so they will die in 100% of times(if explosive headshot hitted them)
I bet everyone knows this but, you can use focus even if it isnt filled
WAIT WHAT?!
No way lmao 1900 hours and I never knew that.
Intellectually, I know this, but I need the "ding" to remind me to actually use the ability, and the meter fills so fast that I never remember to try it to see if I like using a partial meter.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel usually I just get one kill (or even an assist) and once I activate it after that I'm pretty much set for the wave.
How to give everyone Bot Crisis PTSD and not get kicked for it: the tutorial
I'm genuinely kinda shocked that Sniper was considered so bad for so long. He's so obviously bonkers you'd think most people would've figured it out shortly after MvM launched.
@@bernardo-x5n Sniper was never meta before 2 Cities. Soldier and Medic replaced Pyro and a second Heavy in the meta.
@@dispentryporter8621 Ok, thanks for the correction.
I’d argue that Sniper is the most powerful class in MVM. Even stronger than the Gas Passer because the Sniper won’t die after getting each explosive headshot.
@@nicolasrage1104 gas pyros die after throwing their gas because they are bad it has nothing to do with the upgrade
@@mikobscura6696 I know, but I was making a little joke. I still think the Explosive headshot is just as strong (if not stronger than) the Gas Passer, because it can be used more often.
I was searching for a Scout MvM guide and found you then found out that you don't have a Sniper Guide, fast forward one day.
Happy Smissmas lol.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel same to ya
Just a day ago in rottenburg i did 158k damage as sniper and we lost the last round even though i basically kept the area clear of robots, first thing they blamed was me
That's called just having a bad team, probably the stereotypical "META" noobs as well, the kind that you really only ever find on Two Cities, not all 2Cities players are like this though...
typical toxic player mentality, : blame others before ourselves
just for the fun of it at 27:27 where you show the score board i calculated how much damage you did as a percentage of total damage (ignoring tanks) and you did 70.8% of all the damage
I'd like to take a moment to mention (if it hasn't been already, or if it hasn't been noticed) that Explosive Headshot damage can be crit boosted. This can give the Cleaner's Carbine another use case, in which you spend your Crikey meter to ensure onetaps on small Soldiers or even overhealed Uber Medics. Even with only level 1 of Explosive Headshot and a mini-crit boost, you exceed 200 damage.
In fact, you can see it for yourself at 20:04, where Underscore lands a headshot on one of the Giant Medics, and deals a 203-damage Explosive Headshot to the other Medic (who happens to be either covered in Jarate, marked for death, or both).
Was gonna comment this but ya stole my thunder
Jump height is an underrated perk. It’s cheap and can be used to perch yourself onto high platforms so the Spy bots can’t reach you (you don’t even need to Razorback now).
This isn't the tutorial we deserve but the tutorial we needed
I already know so I don't need it. but I know a lot of people who does
I'm glad you didn't just dismiss the huntsman outright because it's one of my favorite subclasses in mvm.
This aged well, the bow and arrow recently received a bugfix that makes it even more powerful
By the way, the +2 health per second upgrade (even when fully upgraded) actually synergizes with the passive healing rate of the concheror and the cozy camper, allowing you to heal up to +14 health per second...
It’s a good buy when you don’t have the cozy camper as well
Wow very helpful, buying health regen as first upgrade
@@helm36he never said first
Not only are sentry busters giant reskinned demomen, they also get the explosion from an extremely buffed ullapool caber explosion!
it's more complicated than that. sentry buster explosions work like backstabs in that they deal 4x the current health of anything in range (except tanks which are immune and giants which take 600 damage) which means that the only way to survive is to have all blast resistance upgrades plus another damage resistance on top of that.
@@TheTdw2000 That explains how occasionally I was saved by vaccinator medics and survived the blast. Interesting.
Great tutorial. Something like this should have been made years ago. Well, there are dozens of written tutorials already, but new player will barely read them.
Buuut, i really love movement speed on every char + 1 jumping high. I know, it is a moot point, but it just feels sooooo good. :)
Once again really good guide. You speaking about GP here makes me wonder how your Pyro guide will go.
I also claim the 69th like.
Nice
Nice
Just in time! I just recently got really into your videos and then I went looking for a well detailed current Sniper guide.
Underscore gaming:
* bursts into room
* makes fire mvm content
* refuses to elaborate (or make medic/demo guides)
* leaves
Good to see that you still makin MvM videos.
Expert still rules.
sniper when no focus: ugh i suck
sniper when full focus : i am bloody god mate
This guide literally explains why charge means very little for MvM Sniper. It's less "Sniper when full charge" and more "Sniper when 1 tick of explosive headshot"
@@dispentryporter8621 sorry i mean hitman heatmaker that stay in scope ability, i kinda forgot the ability name
Sniper doesn't need a full focus meter by the way, he can activate it if the bar is the tiniest bit filled
Fun fact about Big Rock: It isn't just the layout that's sniper friendly, there is a bug in the bot AI that can effectively remove any risk to the sniper.
Basically, the AI uses a navigation mesh to determine where bots are able to 'see' any given player. Generally this works fine, you have LoS to a bot, it can see you, if your in cover, it cannot.
The problem is on Big Rock the rocks in the cave do not have a navigation mesh. This results in the game not updating a players position in the mesh if they jump onto the rocks.
This means if you duck into that little alcove behind the large rock, then jump onto it from there, the bots will not 'see' you until they make it ALL the way around to that side of the rock. It's dumb, and a blatant exploit, but that doesn't stop people from abusing it.
Not just that, you can place a tele on the rocks to extend the invisibility cloak to spawn.
Spoiling us on Christmas twice? You've gotta be kidding. Hope you're doing well man, happy holidays.
Happy Smissmas!
"The pyro has been given a lunchbox item"
Me: *visible confusion*
Depressing fact: Huntsman's damage upgrades don't actually give you +25% damage per tick. Like it wasn't bad enough...
What's next on your list? I feel like Pyro is pretty high priority due to how many bad players tend to gravitate towards him, but Medic also has a lot of mechanics that many fail to utilize.
@@Blaze-xb9nu they do but only if you buy penetration, and it doesn't only happen in valve servers unfortunately
Medic?
This bug with the bow has now been fixed!
I remember playing with a godlike sniper on 2cities as scout and being out moneyed by him. How to play damage scout without caring about money : play with a good sniper
Well, you'll probably still care at least a little bit about money, since now it's free health without the hassle.
That one ghoster = 🗿 *I can get all of those upgrades in the first wave*
hi underscore
you said the hitmans heatmaker does less damage when you shoot things that dont have heads (tanks / buildings)
this isn't true, and you can even see it in your own video (0:42) (50 damage +100% = the 100 damage you see in the video, at no point does the -20% damage on body shot come in)
Oops. You're correct. Will add an erratum.
The only excuse I have for this mistake is that the "silenced" shots for the Heatmaker make it "feel" like you're doing less damage lol.
I love how the shooting of the machina syncs up with the Music at 0:43
you forgot to mention that 5 snipers and an engie is a viable strat
Why would I need to mention something so obvious? Didn't you see the companion video?
ua-cam.com/video/NI6bPMq-k1M/v-deo.html
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel
Because funny 6 sniper team meme
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel It's likely a reference to the UA-camr Pride who made the Expert MvM guide. He mentioned the 5 Sniper 1 Engie strat in that video.
@@davidhong1934 you know what this team could use? five more snipers
I'm just suprised that Idle rock Sniper wasn't mentioned at all
Explosive headshot is not hated because it requires something that Gas passer doesn’t have, SKILL!
Sniper also makes the most use out of nav mesh exploits which do exist on some valve maps and require a step by step setup usually. (bigrock is a clear example of the nav mesh not working properly as all the large rocks don't have any.
are there more? i only remember the rocks at the start of bigrock where you can just snipe from without getting spotted
@@woop6727 if you're behind any obstacle that the robots don't have nav meshes to properly detect players with or they haven't walked onto navnodes that you are near, they don't shoot you.
rottenburg has a godspot as well, but one requires a fair bit of finesse with teleporters.
The Sniper, aka: The Better Spy. Also not liking the shade towards medic, he may not be as important but he sure as hell makes life a shit ton easier in MVM.
Good to see another TF2 UA-camr popping up.
Seeing Tomislav Heavy hurts my eyes.
MvM Sniper is pure dopamine to me, and I'm normally a Scout main.
The opening literally shows sniper is one of op options, because it felt like sniper was the cheater to the Mann vs machine game mode, and he didn't even need hacks.
i love how people are so mad at the gass passer despite the fact that sniper does the literal same thing but with no recharge cooldown
Tbf most of the time explosive headshots do take a bit of skill but if you talk with people who don’t have their head up their arse they’ll probably agree both are bad balance wise
i tried using the classic in mvm. i had an awful time, outdamaged a heavy, and failed three times on wave 1 of mannhattan. never again
1:45 but he's the same in casual (*remember how broken sniper is*) yeah make sense
Sniper in mvm is how I warm up as sniper now. Go in a community server and practice headshots
id like a medic video, i always feel like im doing badly and getting my team killed
i just have a question about your weird hatred of refunding. if a 0 tour engineer joins the game, gets disposable sentry and metal regen as his only upgrades, and the wave is an absolute slog because of his incompetence, do you honestly think it's better to not have the option to tell him to refund his stuff and teach him how to play properly, for the sake of requiring absolute perfect planning of your upgrade path/class choice from the very start, and no flexibility over the course of a mission whatsoever? what are we gonna do, intentionally fail the wave so he can change his choices and make the mission potentially take even longer? that sounds like absolute hell with some of the teammates you can often get in mann up. beyond that, i often find myself disappointed when i have to play engineer because it's a class that never has the freedom to swap, i wouldn't love this gamemode anywhere near as much as i do if that kind of restrictiveness was a constant theme. using your knowledge to adapt on the fly is infinitely more fun than essentially nerfing yourself early on or doing things like using the carbine and bush with no swing speed upgrades when you might be the only one on the team who can kill the tank. I'm sorry but if my team is unable to kill a tank while i'm playing a class that can do effectively nothing to it, and i see my high tour sniper, someone i'm supposed to be able to rely on in this scenario, swinging at the thing with stock speed i am leaving that very instant and finding a new lobby. difficulty isn't the only measure of fun, refunding adds fun through flexibility and reducing the headaches of matchmaking. i can see how playing with no refunds could be more fun with a stack of friends who are coordinated, but as a solo queue player having it is infinitely more fun and saves a lot of headache. no refunding should be a coordinated and agreed upon challenge, not the default state of a game where the quality of your teammates is wildly inconsistent and would cause more pain in matchmaking than already exists.
In the first scenario specifically, one incompetent player isn't enough to make a mission a "slog". If it's that bad, then he's probably not the only dead weight on the team. If it bothers you enough and you don't feel like kindly explaining to him that he's not ready for Advanced/Expert, then that's what the Kick mechanic is for, but again, he's probably only part of the problem. Also, criticizing teammates' upgrades mid-game is kind of a moot point now, since Valve removed the upgrade inspection feature last year. Do you ask all of your teammates to read off all of their upgrades over the mic when you lose a wave?
"Perfect planning" of upgrades was never required in MvM, but not requiring any planning at all is dumb and defeats the entire purpose of the upgrade station. If you really do like this glitched, neglected version of the game mode, then good for you, but a lot of people really liked it back before it was reduced to one step above a sandbox-mode robot slaughter cutscene, back when players had agency, their decisions mattered, and winning felt like an accomplishment (even though it still wasn't that hard). And we miss Expert mode. It wouldn't be so bad if someone had added a difficulty level above Expert to compensate for all of the power creep on the human side, but alas.
Generally, your complaints seem to be about you not liking Co-Op video games and not liking losing. You don't want to have to rely on your teammates in Team Fortress 2, and you feel entitled to win even when your team isn't up to the challenge. Valve has made a lot of concessions to the latter viewpoint over the years. MvM was balanced around 6 players. But for now you still need teammates in Co-Op mode. I'm sorry about that.
FYI: I haven't played with a coordinated group of friends in like 6 years, and even back then it was a rare thing for me. I always queue randomly and deal with the teammates I've got. And I rarely lose. For this reason, I am skeptical when people blame their "incompetent teammates" for everything.
Wait. Re-reading that wall of text... *_did you really just say that a high-tour Sniper NOT upgrading swing speed on his Bushwacka was enough to make you ragequit?_* Lol WTF. Look, this might get lost in translation because I made an excessively-detailed video series about how to play MvM at a high leve, but MvM isn't actually that hard and there's plenty of room for making stuff up as you go. There is no need to nitpick your teammates and throw a tantrum if they don't use the strategy you think is optimal. And, if so many random lobbies you join are bad and struggle to win... well, you're the common factor, aren't you?
*_TL;DR: Please just understand that the game was good the way it was, a true co-op experience with multiple difficulty tiers for different skill levels, before Valve dumbed everything down into a glorified single-player campaign so that even bad players could farm loot from Two Cities quickly and easily._*
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel i haven't gotten around to reading all this yet because it's a doozy but let me just get a couple things that stuck out to me addressed first.
"And, if so many random lobbies you join are bad and struggle to win... well, you're the common factor, aren't you?"
buddy. if i am in a lobby with all single digit tour counts, i am outdamaging everyone, outscoring everyone, as scout, wave 1, without even having damage upgrades yet, i'm pretty sure i am not the problem. you've said before that you don't play mann up much and it really shows with this comment in particular, bad players are common, trying to throw that back at me as a gotcha is laughable
"If it bothers you enough and you don't feel like kindly explaining to him that he's not ready for Advanced/Expert, then that's what the Kick mechanic is for, but again, he's probably only part of the problem."
for engineer especially i cannot disagree more, dispenser placement (and teleporters as well, though that one is harder to fuck up too badly) is so insanely important and it WILL hold everyone back immensely. I'm shocked someone as experienced as you doesn't realize this, it seems to be coming from a place of dramatically overestimating how much easier refunding makes the game, as if all cooperation is just unnecessary and pivotal classes have their importance reduced to nothing all because people can swap upgrades around. I think the same holds true for a scout missing 100+ money every wave, but to a lesser extent. Really, any class that isn't focused on just DPS will drag the team down immensely if they aren't doing their job, and if the teams overall skill level isn't that high they might not be able to make up the damage loss of one really bad player either. Any one bad player can ruin a lobby depending on a variety of factors regardless of what class they are playing. One time i let a 4 tour spy just do his thing and ended the mission with him at only 4k damage, simply because we were able to essentially 5 man with ease. Might as well let him have his fun in that case, but that's a rare example in my experience. Most of the time a player not pulling their weight that bad will make the mission a drag. Anyway, teaching someone how to play is infinitely preferable to telling them to just leave or kicking them, something that is much harder to do without refunding. I've had countless scenarios like my example where the engineer didn't interact with the team once, and i either left or we kicked him, but i've also had many times where i or the team told the engineer what he was doing wrong and what to upgrade, he took our advice seriously, and started doing his job properly almost immediately. It can be that easy, all lack of refunding would do is make it take much longer for people to be able to learn, and through a pretty artificial means of restricting their ability to retry and recognize their mistakes. it's healthier for the playerbase to have the option to teach people who will listen as opposed to being forced to chase them away, and dramatically reduces headaches in solo matchmaking, which was the main point i made in favor of refunding.
"Also, criticizing teammates' upgrades mid-game is kind of a moot point now, since Valve removed the upgrade inspection feature last year."
It really isn't. You can see a disposable sentry has been placed. You can go up to the dispenser and see if it has range upgraded. You can look at buildings' health. You can observe the scout's jumps and see if he has jump height. You can also see a heavy getting insta killed by crits when he should have bought crit res. I don't think i need to elaborate further.
Glad to hear you can play Scout. I'm just confused as to why a skilled player would be be so eager to ragequit as you expressed in your previous post. Out of curiosity, what part of the world are you in? Sometimes I vaguely wonder if lobby skill level varies region. In NA, it's easier to find winning lobbies than it was when MvM was new, somehow. Far more commonly than "headaches", I come across "over-qualified" servers where the mission is far too smooth and boring. In my opinion, modern MvM is too easy to be fun *_without_* at least a couple incompetent players, due to the aforementioned power creep.
And just because I don't play Mann Up much anymore doesn't mean I don't ever. Bad players existed in 2012, too, and they didn't have the benefit of 10 years' of accumulated online guides, but they managed to win, anyway. If skill levels had actually deteriorated *_that_* much since the time I played multiple games per week, then I would blame Refund and Gas Passer. But actually what I see is that the game has gotten easier and easier. Valve hasn't nerfed anything in awhile, but the high-tours keep finding more and more mini-exploits.
Yes, The Engineer is the worst class to have a bad player as if there is no other Engineer, and some maps are a pain without a decent one. Dispenser and Teleporter placement are issues that are easily fixed without resorting to Refund, though.
I would hesitate about criticizing player upgrades based on what's visible in the overworld. The MvM community has always had a habit of picking on the most visible bad teammates (e.g. Engineer with his very-obvious building placement) while ignoring other offenders (e.g. Soldiers with everything in Rocket Specialist and Clip Size), and I think what your propose would only make it worse. It is extremely common to see teams yelling at the wrong guy e.g. bullying a player who may have done something "wrong" but who is still doing okay overall, while not placing any blame at all on someone who's being downright useless. I'm not in the habit of looking over my shoulder at my teammates in the middle of a wave to find out what they're doing wrong, either, so watching players to figure out what their upgrades might be is an avenue of criticism that isn't really open to me. I teach through these videos, not by being a backseat driver.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel "I'm just confused as to why a skilled player would be be so eager to ragequit as you expressed in your previous post. "
if the team is at least competent enough that i can carry them and have fun doing so, i'll do that. had a game the other day where i did exactly that, 50k damage on tanks (next highest was half that) and 90k damage on bots as scout, only outdone by the heavy who was probably the most competent player on the team. not the best DPS scout in the world by any means but i'm pretty proud of that. but some teams are just too bad and some players too unteachable to be worth the time staying in the lobby, most obvious example being an engineer who refuses to move his dispenser to where people can actually access it. It's not so much me being eager to leave and more me just, leaving when a team is bad enough that i can't have fun.
"Out of curiosity, what part of the world are you in? Sometimes I vaguely wonder if lobby skill level varies region. In NA, it's easier to find winning lobbies than it was when MvM was new, somehow. Far more commonly than "headaches", I come across "over-qualified" servers where the mission is far too smooth and boring. In my opinion, modern MvM is too easy to be fun without at least a couple incompetent players, due to the aforementioned power creep."
I'm NA. Winning lobbies with very high tour players aren't rare but not common either in my experience, and rather than them making the mission boring i just find them refreshing, stomping a mission every now and then is fun in the same way that turning on cheats in some singleplayer game every now and then is fun, variety is nice. If it was a very frequent thing i would agree with you but it isn't common enough in my experience for it to ever make the game less enjoyable.
For the last bit, it's less about me specifically looking for these things and just, them being immediately noticeable. Dispenser range is so crucial that you can instantly tell if the engi has it or not on most classes, and an early wave disposable sentry will almost always be built and visible. I agree with your point here overall, I've had many lobbies where the sniper or spy was blamed for us losing the wave when their performance on scoreboard was equal with or above the rest of the team, simply because they're more skill based classes and easy to pin blame on if their tour counts aren't triple digit, and me and my duo queue friend (the sniper in question) were the only ones to see who the real problem was in all of those lobbies. But i don't see what that has to do with visible upgrades like dispenser range, people blaming the wrong players for dumb reasons is absolutely a problem but it doesn't mean you should not say anything when the engi buys disposable sentry on wave 1 and you immediately see it regardless of you looking for it or not.
Okay, other than getting so many bad servers ("stomping" the robots seems to me to be the norm these days... or at least it was a few months ago. I took a 3-month break from TF2 after Christmas, partially because of literal travel), I've experienced most of what you're talking about and can sympathize. It was mostly the "high-tour Sniper without Swing Speed upgrades = disconnect" that got me. That's starting to drift into orthodoxy. There are parts of this game mode or indeed any game, competition, form of combat, etc. on which reasonable people can disagree. Even for a pro-Refund Sniper, whether or not to buy Bushwacka Swing Speed is situational. There are millions of possible scenarios, and he has to make an educated guess as to the "optimal" choice. It's not really a decision to second-guess a person on.
Remember, YOU CAN RUN 5 SNIPERS AND WIN! (And 1 Engi)
comp doesn't really matter THAT much
there's a video of people winning Nightmare Difficulty Wave 666 with 6 spies
Bruh... this whole time I thought the red money was like counterfeit money some bots dropped to trick players.
9:51 This confused me a bit, I understand liquid skill and we-need-a-medic-inator but what does refunds do that you deem overpowered?
MvM was originally like an RPG. You had to pick and choose and plan ahead. Some classes, weapons, and upgrades would be sub-par for certain waves, but that was OK. It's a co-op game, so your teammates should pick up the slack for you on those waves. This is where the entire concept of having a diverse team with 6 different classes came from.
Now, since you can just re-spec whenever you want, teams can optimize their classes, loadouts, and upgrades for each wave. If players actually use this ability, it's like playing with 7, 8 , or even 9 players instead of 6. It depends. On some missions, it's not that OP, but it's extremely broken on others. The most common examples are probably 1) pulling a glass-cannon Phlog Pyro out of nowhere for tank waves and 2) using The Spy on the 2 Expert waves where he's OP, but playing another class for the rest of the game.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel I see. I was never around for those times - hell, I never even knew of an age without the Gas Passer and I barely knew the times when you could see others' upgrades - so I don't know how MvM was meant to be or used to be. Thanks for the explanation
As a god-tier game ruiner Sniper main: I approve of this tutorial! 👍
7:55 Surprised you didn't mention how Cozy Camper always recharges +4 hp instead of having a curve of +1,+2,+3,+4 like in pvp
ooh sniper. let's gooo!
What's your opinion on a fellow MvM guide video by Pride_ ?
It's not bad. I really like that he advocates for understanding the mechanics of *_why_* things work and being flexible instead of just blindly following a set of rules. He focuses on Support Scout, but it's in the original context of a team that has 3 Heavies and no Medic, which is where Support Scout is actually viable. He also feeds into the "Heavy is bad against tanks" myth a bit, and I take issue with the idea that Medic is bad in Expert. Sure, Gear Grinder isn't "designed around" Medic, but that's why he can be kind of OP. Two Cities is easy, and it's easy to outplay the robots regardless of whether there is a Medic or not. I think the Projectile Shield is much more game-breaking in Expert.
0:49 is that a halloween themed version of bigrock?
Yes.
Merry christmas from italy 🤍💖💙🤎🖤❤️🧡💛💚💙💜
9:51 how is the shield unbalanced, it gives medic an option to cause damage and it doesnt even work against pyros and spies and you gotta recharge it all the time
On casual... Yeah ,that thing is op, for a good reason is not added there but some community servers have it enabled for some reason
It is essentially an ubercharge for your entire team that lasts 12 seconds, charges faster than a normal uber, deals good damage for what is supposed to be an entirely support class. If you are having issues with pyroes and spies (very minor threats) while your team is protected against everything else then it is probably their first time in MvM.
@@bernardo-x5n Hell, the Pyrobot problem can be mitigated by the Medic buying Fire Res; then shield bashing them like a megachad. Pyrobots can't be a problem if you're standing on their metal corpses. A good Shield Medic on the QF can hard carry teams.
These videos are so fucking good man. Keep it up!
Among other your MVM tutorial, im suprise this has the least view
Anyway good video m8
It's just because it's the most recent. The tutorial videos consistently keep getting views long after their release, so the older ones have more. I think The Engineer is actually the least popular for its age. Meanwhile, I think this video is the only non-Shorts video I ever made to get almost 1,000 views in the first 24 hours.
i personally use huntsman more because the single target damage is really good and also because the meta sniper or any sniper rifle is zzzz
A like to know more about these community maps flying tanks sentry tanks are the hard or easy.
are the maps creative good for beginner welcoming ping friendly
Are the hours long can you only play with friends ?
A variety of difficulties are available, with servers in multiple regions. You can join a server alone or with friends.
Great video and guide; which class is next?
Probably Pyro.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel when do you think you could get it out?
So far, I've been releasing one of those videos about every 6 months. Ideally, I'll have it out in June or July.
However, I've been having serious PC issues this week, and I'd like to move house before then, so we'll see. It takes me about a month to create a tutorial once I've got all of the footage (which I don't).
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel based on current progress, could you get the video out this year?
Yes. I abandoned July and plan on just doing the traditional Christmas morning release. I haven't done the voiceover or started working in the video editor, but the script's about half-written, and I've built up a nice library of labelled, organized clips. As long as I keep working at a steady rate, I will be done on time.
9:51 I'm sensing some salt here
Hot take: without explosive headshot, sniper would be balanced. Right now he is OP.
No, sniper would be balanced with a less powerful explosive headshot. Without it, he'd be underpowered.
You're not wrong. Explosive Headshot Sniper is definitely OP for very good players, but it's probably balanced for the *average* player, which might be for the best, since it's impossible to evenly balance a class-based shooter evenly across all skill levels at the same time.
@@fynii9478 Without explosive headshot, he would have more money to spend on single target damage upgrades such as charge rate and damage.
@@bernardo-x5n he would still be underwhelming.
@@bernardo-x5n The problem is that even with max damage and charge speed Sniper is still more underwhelming against giants than classes such as Heavy and Spy who also need less money to reach full damage potential against them.
true sniper is the most high damage of all. i always got a team with sniper and they are higher damage count in score board.
when i play sniper mvm i use huntsman cuz my headshots never register
didnt know you still made videos.
I actually released more videos this year than I ever have before.
But I do these in my spare time, without contracting out for freelance help, so my release schedule will never be as frequent as a professional UA-camr.
I do gotta wonder what your beef with Refunding is. Sure it makes the game easier, but literally everyone has access to it and it's simple existence dosn't invalidate groups of robots or soldier robots, unlike Gas and Shield.
All Refunding does is mean you don't have to think in the long term as much, and IMO it's significantly better for a lot of community events where you have no way of knowing what's coming up. Imagine you've been investing into bullet resistance in the early waves since there's been a lot of heavies, and you've been putting the rest into your weapons, and then the next wave is crit soldiers.
You literally explain the reason why in your post: It makes it too easy and eliminates the need to plan ahead. The entire concept of the Upgrade Station doesn't make sense anymore without the need to plan ahead. *_Any balanced game requires tradeoffs, and Refund virtually eliminates that in MvM._*
By having unlimited respec, you effectively have more money overall, and money is perhaps more important than the robots in determining difficulty. Playing the same wave with 400 credits vs. 4,000 credits can mean the difference between Expert and Intermediate.
Your example of why you like Refund is actually rather pedestrian. Some tryhards will abuse it so they can use the most OP class and loadout for every single wave, doubling or even tripling their effectiveness as a player. Needless to say, that's extremely game-breaking in a game mode that was designed for only 6 players to begin with.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel You need to go out of your way to abuse refund, and abusing refund is a skill in of itself. It's not like Gas Passer or Shield where you can break the game by simply hitting a single button.
Even at the skill level I'm at in MvM (Which I'd say is relatively high after over 1200 hours in TF2, most of which was spent playing MvM), I don't have nearly the skill to do what you described. I only ever use it to respec resistances or remove a situational upgrade like slowing mad milk. Even swapping weapons isn't that bad, since a lot of weapon swaps you might want to do are with weapons you weren't gonna upgrade to begin with.
Sure, in theory Refund could be incredibly busted, but in practice it really isn't just because most people either don't know how to or just dosn't care to use it in that way.
And if you're at the skill level where you can abuse refund, you're probably good enough that doing so would be total overkill and you could effortlessly beat any official wave with relative ease. It's kinda like Sniper in that way (Ironic given this is the guide I'm commenting this on). Sure, theoretically they could be this gamebreaking force that makes the Gas Passer look like the Gas Passer in regular TF2, but in practice it's much more balanced just because most people aren't good enough to do that.
Refund makes MvM infinitely more approachable for beginners, which given the fanbase, almost anything helping beginners get into the game is great.
In my opinion, I think Refund improves the game more then it hurts it.
It's not at all hard to abuse, though. It's extremely easy, and even noobs do it a regular basis, if more clumsily than the "tryhards" I described. The resistance-optimizing you describe is one common way.
Other common ways include switching to Phlog Pyro for tank waves, switching to The Spy for Giant Medic waves, switching to The Sniper on Steel Gauntlet waves, and even switching off of the trashy "meta" Scout on the last wave of a mission. But yes, experienced players can abuse it even harder than that with more complex tactics like weapon swaps and weird upgrade builds that wouldn't work well on most waves.
Originally, Refund seems to have been intended to allow a one-time switch in order to encourage people to try more classes or to keep people from being "stuck" mid-mission in a class they didn't know how to play. Which was arguably fine. In its current form, though, it's just bonkers OP.
Refund is unnecessary as a difficulty modifier. MvM already has multiple difficulty levels, all of which are accessible to casual players, even more so now that so guides like this one exist. Meanwhile, actual elite players need to play them with handicaps to keep even "Expert" interesting.
It also makes MvM less of a team effort. If I'm playing The Soldier and carrying a team of 5 deadbeats, but then encounter a wave that counters The Soldier (not enough to make him ineffective, just enough to keep him from carrying a bad team), it gives a way out. The old way forced some of the deadbeats to actually step up and help if they wanted to win. Now, the MVP has the option of just toggling onto a different class to avoid the need for teamwork.
*_TL:DR: The Refund Exploit (I don't know if you've seen my earlier videos where I mention this... but it's literally a bug in the game that's been turned into a "feature" to help Valve sell MvM tickets faster or something) is not conducive to an interesting, challenging Co-Op experience._*
@@UnderscoreGamingChannelI guess. It still feels like a subjective thing, though.
I think it's better for playing with randoms in boot camp where it's much harder to get a coordinated team, but is likely worse for high level play in things like Mann Up where a coordinated team is much easier to find.
In my personal opinion I think it makes the game mode more fun, because... well... winning is fun. Refunding makes MvM easier, but it dosn't make it a cakewalk like gas. You still need to try. It isn't gonna give you the ability to die every five seconds but still have damage rivaling the Heavy. Refunding dosn't totally kill the challenge of MvM, even if it makes it easier.
Even if we disagree on this topic, I should note that I do really like your guides otherwise. I've had a lot more fun as Scout since I watched your guide on him.
"Liquid Skill" 🤣🤣🤣🤣
reload after 1 explode
pissman morning
this tutorial could have been just the first min and a half
I have many tours but I learn so much. awesome
9:46 lmao "skill"
No it doesnt
Even my 5 yo cousin can shoot heads with sniper ,its not hard, specially on mvm considering there is bigger targets that move even slower than normal THAT MAKES PREDICTABLE MOVES, on casual at least there is more chance to miss becuase enemies are humans, they dont make the same moves over and over and ppl can still change their interp but on mvm unless your waves are just big scouts that arent covered in milk or jarate then its almost impossible to miss a shot if you are not getting hit by a crit and explosive headshot pretty much encourages shooting the slowest ppl since they will be surrounded always by either lot of small robots or some giants, its definetly more op than gas passer specially if the focus mode is on or you use Sydney sniper which is most of the time considering most of the ppl WILL use the meta
Tf2 is just not a game designed with a high skill base in mind like csgo does ,is not a hardcore game, if you want something hardcore just complete whatever expert mvm without a single upgrade
Ppl bring up that "skill" nonsense when in reality tf2 has no high skill base in mind...
I like your vids but you seem to hate the refund mechanic too much. to me it's a nice QoL because it feels frustating to use waste an upgrade like resistance and not have it in the wave
That's exactly why I hate it, though. The entire point of the upgrade system is to have players make choices that matter for the rest of the mission. To weigh costs and benefits. Should you get the upgrade that will make the current wave easier, or the upgrade that will be more beneficial in the long-term? Do you run The Spy because there's a wave that The Spy can cheese, or do you avoid The Spy because nobody on your team can play it well?
Being able to constantly re-spec to a near-optimal loadout makes missions way easier than they're supposed to be and literally makes gameplay more one-dimensional. Every wave becomes "the easy wave". Since the entire Valve canon of official missions was released before the Refund Glitch was introduced (and since custom missions try to follow Valve difficulty conventions), it's effectively a massive nerf on the entire game mode. You basically cannot play missions at their original, intended difficulty unless you get a group of players to agree to not refund. Or you get a server owner to turn it off.
I'm a nerd. I like the "planning" part of games. The Refund Glitch-turned-feature eliminates that. And breaks the game. I still have fun playing it, but MvM is technically a broken, abandoned game mode.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel It makes mission easier but it also makes them less frustating, which should be the entire point of a video game. Also every PVE game will become easier once you play long enough since it's all the same stuff over and over again, just ask anyone who played dark souls a bunch fo times. And unless you have every wave memorized, you can't really know what you're gonna fight next round. I'd hate this gamemode if i had to pay for some resistance early on, only for it to never appear in the final waves. that's between 450 to 900 credits completely wasted. And if you really memorized all the waves, you're already a veteran which means the game is easier regardless of refund or not
Also it becomes easier for newer player to play the game in a better, because by judging the quality of the average boot camp lobby, some new players are clearly lost (which is valve's fault cuz there's no tutorial). Imagine if a noob engie gets the disposable sentry and shotgun firing speed as their upgrade, should he be handicapped the entire match because he made a shitty decision? Not really. MVM isn't a balanced game mode regarding some weapons where you could go unoptimal loadouts and still win in advanced diffficulties (especially for newbies), because some weapons are clearly inferior to one another. That's why there's a refund mechanic.
I understand you hate it from a challenge perspective, but to me being able to respect and change how i play each wave is how i enjoy this game, because having useless upgrades feels like a waste and i can always go some meme builds if my team is good enough anyway. And i've been playing the game mode since it came out.
Look, I know that it's good for video games to accommodate different skill and/or time investment levels, but MvM already did that. There were 3 main difficulties plus "Normal", which is basically tutorial difficulty. People who've wanted easier gameplay have always had it. The Refund Glitch knocks everything down a notch, though, basically taking Expert away from those who wanted it.
And now there's a "useless" Intermediate mode because Advanced was turned into the new Intermediate.
The Refund mechanic as it exists today is in the game because the original, tamer version broke, and Valve's "janitor" at the time didn't know how it was actually supposed to work when they "fixed" it. Or they did, but they knew they'd make more money from Two Cities farmers by just leaving it broken.
Remember, I primarily play Custom MvM, so I go into most waves blind, just like a newbie. I don't mind not knowing what to expect. It's what makes MvM fun. And I don't usually buy many resistances until late-game anyway, at least not for most classes, so I guess I'm not very bothered by that. Though I did play a weird (hard) custom mission last night where resistances seemed to be better than weapon upgrades.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel No one selects their propper difficulties lol otherwise you wouldn't have people who started playing this month on advanced and expert missions (as i'm writting this, i'm playing an advanced mission with a pyro who didnt upgade his ammo and is using the fire axe against a tank...). MVM is already frustating when your teammates are dogshit, imagine if you were stuck with useless upgrades for the rest of the match. All for what? In the name of skill? lmao
Just saying, i'd also stop including this segment in later videos. Not only it defeats the purpose of a guide, by handicapping yourself, but it comes off and needlessly bitchy
The only class which needs resistances is heavy, because he can't dodge and should take the aggro, for other classes resistances are low priority, expect for crit for all classes and fire for medic(because flamethrower flames pierce through it(also the bison but it's custom mvm exclusive)). So if you upgrade properly you will get resistances only at late waves, where usually all types of damage is present and even if it doesn't 300 credits shouldn't make that much difference. Also pyro can buy resistances, because he is very cheap to upgrade, everything you need is 4 damage and 1-2 hok, maybe 1 ammo, that is 2250$ at maximum, but movement speed and jump height are still higher priority
hey man, please do heavy.
Okay.