The Scout: Mann vs. Machine Tutorial
Вставка
- Опубліковано 28 тра 2024
- ERRATA:
1. The Soda Popper has a +25% Reload Speed statistic built-in, making Clip Size less useful than it is for the Force-a-Nature. The optimal upgrade path is probably something closer to alternating Damage-Clip-Damage-Clip-etc., rather than 2 Clip, 4 Damage, 2 Clip.
2. Another downside of the Force-a-Nature that I forgot to mention is that it sometimes reduces your own DPS by pushing your target further away from you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here at Underscore Gaming, we are committed to bringing you high-quality content in the form of video treatises, but sometimes it takes awhile. After all, this is not our full-time job, or even our main hobby.
See a lot of maps in the video that you don't recognize? Play them here for a limited time:
us.potatomvm.tf/
or download them here to run on your own server:
drive.google.com/drive/folder...
Timestamps:
Opening: (00:00)
Intro: (01:26)
Part 1 - Weapons: (03:35)
Part 2 - Upgrades: (08:27)
Color-Coded Upgrade Paths: (08:42)
Part 3 - Gameplay: (10:59)
Part 4 - Expectations: (21:58)
Outro: (27:22)
Full video of the Bavarian Botbash game with 6 Scouts can be watched here (if it ever finishes processing:
• ALL SCOUTS - Bavarian ...
Music:
"Takeoff Sting" - Ethan Meixsell
"Detour Sting" - Gunnar Olsen
Special thanks to Mrs. Underscore for providing additional voiceovers.
Text at 3:06, since it's not completely legible (my bad):
"Empirical Evidence that the 'Meta Scout' is Weak:
•The Scout is expected to be at the bottom of the scoreboard by 'meta' standards.
•Teams with Support Scouts often struggle on waves in which sufficient damage output, not survival, is the primary challenge.
•Having 2 Scouts on the same team is typically considered a capital sacrilege, while duplicates of most other classes are just mildly frowned upon, if even discouraged at all.
•It is literally possible for a Scout to unbind all attack keys, go full Pacifist, score 0 points on the scoreboard, and get told 'Good Job, Scout' by his teammates as long as all money gets collected. This is indicative of just how low expectations are for The Scout within the 'meta.'
Reasons Why the 'Meta Scout' is Weak:
•The weapons of emphasis (Mad Milk & Fan O' War) are completely redundant to Kritzkrieg Medic and Buff Banner Soldier, both of which are popular 'meta' classes. The presence of a Medic is especially redundant to a Support Scout, leaving a maximum of only 4 player slots for actual combat roles.
•Over-emphasis on Money Collection results in one player spending a large portion of the game looking for 'those last 5 credits' instead of playing the objective, which leaves the team chronically short-handed.
•On maps were the robots field multiple bombs or attack from multiple directions (e.g. Mannhattan; Doppler), devoting player slots to unnecessary support roles stretches the team thin.
•Mad Milk & Fan O' War synergize best with The Heavy. Their effectiveness falls off sharply on teams without a Heavy or Pyro.
•It is not uncommon for MvM missions to feature waves where healing is not really helpful, and the main challenge is to output enough damage before the bomb reaches the hatch. These waves are generally not conducive to Support playstyles.
•Support playstyles, even good ones, do not work if the combat classes being supported are not competent. Not only does an excess of Support classes increase the bad kind of redundancy, it also reduces the good kind of redundancy by leaving the responsibility of killing robots to a smaller group of Combat classes.
•Casual players tend to not use the Fan O' War effectively, so telling them it's a 'must-have' for The Scout is a bad idea.
•Many teams struggle with destroying tanks. The Scout is one of the best tank-busters in the game, but the 'meta' upgrade and playstyle guidelines actively repress this ability.
•The introduction of the Medic's Projectile Shield in 2013 made it easier for even slow classes to walk into the killing zone and retrieve money, reducing the importance of a dedicated 'money collector.'
TL;DR: The Support Scout playstyle used to be a reasonable subclass due to its context within the 'meta', but now it's more of a weird, dysfunctional anachronism. Meanwhile, Combat Scout (i.e. Regular Scout) is reliable in a wide variety of situations without [his usefulness] depending so heavily on the class and weapon choices of his teammates."
This video was created with Movavi Video Editor Plus.
www.movavi.com/
#tf2 #tf2gameplay - Ігри
![[TF2] In Defense Of The Wrap Assassin](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4-p6V5Egb5Q/mqdefault.jpg)
amazing guide again. Only thing I have to say is regarding stock gun usage/upgrades. The guide for stock upgrade path shows upgrades purely on dps and not on the practical usage of the weapon. Generally I use it as a more burst weapon that handles a subwave of bots. So the first upgrades I get are 2 firing speeds and then damage. clip size is sometimes gotten before even the first reload speed after max dmg and sometimes just 1 reload speed for 2 clip size depending on the wave. This obviously doesn't work well if the team are lacking severe damage and needs a sustain damage output early rounds that allow for any slight downtime to reload. (the team that gets steam rolled) The upside vs soda is that it's better at killing giants due to not needing to reload while trying to kill the giant. Smaller upsides are that it's better at ammo management and allows me to reload and have clip for whatever situation at the late rounds because I have 18 clip and can reload any amount of depleted rounds depending on the subwave timing (ex: reload 5 clips running from left to right side etc)
also one more thing. You seem to want to fire as fast as you can with the sodapopper. Just relax and take a milisecond to aim the shot. Turn auto-reload off helps with ammo usage and overall dmg with soda.
again. Amazing video.
Pinning this comment. I agree that the stock Scattergun is fundamentally more of a burst weapon than the "clip-reload" guns, and all Scout primaries, not just the Scattergun, have situations where you'd want to go for something other than maximum DPS. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to go into all of that in the video (already 27 minutes long), so I just provided the maximum DPS upgrade paths as a starting point (see errata in video description). The same thing goes for the unspoken ammo-hungriness of the clip-reload weapons: they have higher steady DPS because they use more ammo. Thanks for supplying the additional insight.
I must also admit that, since I mostly use the Soda Popper, my preferences regarding the Scattergun are not as developed as yours are. For instance, I always feel weird about upgrading Clip Size for weapons that reload one shot at a time, since I'm so used to the default TF2 clip size, but I guess you can say that about anything in MvM.
I know what you mean about how I shoot with auto-reload on the Soda Popper, but I've been doing it that way so long I hardly ever think about it any more. Maybe I should try to introduce an auto-reload toggle into my Scout config. We'll see how I react to the change in rhythm.
Nerd
I love how you're basically raising the middle finger to the meta.
The worst kind of meta worshiper is the kind who doesn't care about team composition (3 pyros? No problem there) but the second the scout upgrades his gun suddenly it's a crime against humanity.
But Two Cities meta is not MvM "meta"
So no, he is just stating facts, and supporting the meta, not being against it
Me: Oh yeah, the Candy Cane! How could I forget about Stripe-eyed Steve?
@@bounter_ yeah, for example on gear grinder medic is off-meta and instead you stack heavies for max damage output
I love doing that
I would genuinely love an entire match of MvM narrated like a 1940's ballgame, that intro was superb!
YES! YES! YES! YES!
Y E S !
"Liquid Skill" - Oh my god I'm dying, that got me good.
One thing I immediately noticed from this video was how much aggression you can get away with. You go balls-deep, like literally point-blank next to a group of enemies on a frequent basis.
I originally had the misconception that Scout's health pool was too small to be playing like that, and I'd die too quickly, so I would make the mistake of jumping around, poking and waiting for the right opportunity to commit, kind of like in PVP. But circling around enemies at point-blank is much more effective.
Upgrading the gun and getting kills quicker is what makes Scout able to live long. Stronger gun = more lifesteal from milk. Stronger gun = you take less damage because you can kill them before they are able to put shots into you. Stronger gun = you get the money pickup heals sooner.
Exactly! Except on certain missions with very little money, in which case The Scout is just very difficult to play, aggressive or otherwise. :(
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel Just played Spyware Shipping on the Titanium Tank tour, and I definitely feel that...
Can't believe such a great analysis of the Scout class in MvM has such low views. Scout is definitely my favorite class to play in MvM and this guide helped me out a lot. Keep up the good work
Many because not a lotta scout mains compared to other classes, it sucks, but it’s true
I really appreciate this video. Scout's probably one of my favorite classes in MvM, but when I had gotten into the gamemode, any and all tutorials I watched on the class just said what that "meta" playstyle is and that's it. I could complete a mission with damage numbers below 10,000 and be praised for all my hard work. It was still fun, but then one day, I got into a match with a super experienced Scout using the soda popper. Not only were basically 0 credits missed, but he top-scored by a wide margin.
Lately I've been trying to actually start doing a lot more shooting as Scout than before, but it's still full of a lot of the usual bread and butter mad milk + fan of war + scavenger hunt for money nonsense with upgrades focused on movement and resistances and that's it. Granted, I still think I'll use mad milk and fan of war since I've grown used to how to properly use them. But I really appreciate your point about how getting an A+ really isn't that important. I think going forward, I'll try the advice you've given in this video. I'll still pour some stuff into jump upgrades since I think it's really fun, but I think I'll also have to start focusing more on my gun out of the gates, and only consider mad milk upgrades as contextual rather than necessary. I've got almost 60 tours under my belt now, so I won't even have to deal with as much useless hate from my teammates! :)
Great video by the way! I enjoyed the sass in it, it feels like something the MvM community deserves at times. Here's hoping a lot of Scouts can learn from this too!
Hiya PK
I've been binging this channel and Weezy TF2's MvM tier lists!
Your guides are the reason I fell in love with MvM back in the golden days of the gamemode. And I mean the Steam written ones. Great job, buddy.
I honestly have no idea why you only have 77 subs, your videos are so well made and are so informational. I love the content, keep it up!
It's honestly criminal that nobody knows about the Shortstop in MvM. I discovered how good it is a few days ago, and I've been running it every time I play scout. The shove is way more reliable than the FaN's knockback, and it lets Scout stall Sentry Busters almost indefinitely when paired with slow milk. Not to mention the obvious application of shoving giants around (the only thing the Shortstop can't shove are boss robots such as Chief Blast and of course the Tank).
ah fun 2 second story about someone telling me to switch to another class on last wave. It was a demand not the usual being nice gesture. I asked why and the reason was for more damage. I told them to tell the 2 soldiers to change to scout as I had more dmg then them. Fun times.
Again, a really good MvM guide. I actually used to upgrade clip size for Shortstop first because I thought it was much closer to the Soda Popper.
One criticism I can give is the amount of "single-frame" text and the low time tips and other texts can be visible. A good tip I read was giving enough time to read a text twice for you so you would be sure others would get the time they need to read themselves. It can be annoying after a while to have to pause the video every few seconds...
Thanks. Yeah... I'm aware that most of the text can't be read without pausing the video. I don't love it, but I think I'm sticking with that editing choice for now. Actually, I can't even read it that fast. It's just that the text is all secondary information, and I don't want to be *too* intrusive on the main treatise or on-screen demonstrations. I do kind of want all of the Tips to be basically legible, so some of those might've been skimped on accidentally. But otherwise, it's just my best effort to balance the competing needs of a very information-dense script.
A lot of very successful UA-cam channels with large audiences (and lower information density) still have captions that are too fast to read without pausing, so I feel there's precedent, at least. It can definitely be annoying, though.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel I don't mind having to pause to read text, but at least give us some time to react and find the pause button, since I don't always have my hands on my mouse/keyboard when watching longer videos.
@@ssrc Me neither. I appreciate the feedback, and will try to do better on the next video.
I had a Shortstop scout outdamage everyone in a single wave on 2cities. And by single wave I mean he jumped all the ranks in the last wave. Good times.
I always do that but with tanks.
Great video! I disagree with the comments on the sandman however. The benefit of the sandman is not its mark-for-death upgrade, it is the ability to completely immobilize giants.
Long-distance sandman shots on giants make them completely unable to move for 10~ seconds (approximately, depending on distance.) Upgrading capacity on the sandman will allow you to reset the stun timer for as many shots as you have, or immobilize multiple giants at the same time. Since the maximum ball count on the sandman is 10, it is theoretically possible to immobilize 5 giants at the same time for 20~ seconds each, or 1 giant for 100~ seconds.
What's more is that maxing recharge speed on the sandman makes your shots recharge sooner than the stun effect ends. On boss waves you can stunlock the boss for all eternity while staying at a completely safe distance. Even if your entire team dies, you cannot lose the wave if the boss can't walk to the hatch.
If you're playing with a less experienced team, then there may be a situation where your team gets wiped out by a giant (the giant crit heavy on botbash is notorious for this...) With the sandman, you can freeze a bomb-carrier giant and completely stop the bomb's progress through the map for as long as you need. Your team will respawn and regroup with zero consequences, and the giant that killed them will be right where they left it. (One time my team was getting spawncamped and dying repeatedly at the hatch, but the bots were unable to deliver the bomb because I was infinitely stunlocking the carrier from halfway across the map.)
The sandman also has a skill ceiling, and a lot of potential to be very powerful in the right hands. With practice you can hit long distance shots consistently, even on super scouts. There's a lot of potential for some ridiculous saves.
The fact that the sandman gets a mark for death upgrade on top of all of this is just the icing on the cake.
Does that still work? I had thought it had been broken by an update...
If that's the case, then I'll have to chalk it up as being a niche trick I overlooked. It's possibly enough to justify regularly equipping the Sandman, since the health loss isn't *too* big a deal as long as you keep your overheal up.
Bonk is good too in early waves when there is a lot of spam and you need to collect money for your team without dying.
first reaction wtf
second reaction wait that was how i was playing before knowing how to play mvm
Hmm... when you think about it it seems similar. Huge difference in skill and techniques involved but The GUN way most new scouts pick is oddly similar to best scouts.
This guide is amazing! For years I thought that the Scout was boring and underpowered in MVM, until I watched this video. Now the Scout has become my favorite MVM class, and I can often get 2nd or 1st place damage, while also collecting the most money, dealing the most tank damage, and healing my team. I’m not trying to brag at all, I still have a lot to learn, but I am trying to demonstrate how effective Scout is in MVM.
Yep. All it takes is an average player with a little bit of practice. It's amazing how effective you can be when you devote your efforts into killing 500% more robots instead of collecting 2% more money.
Amazing guide, I’m surprised I don’t see more scouts upgrading damage to be a bigger help to the team. It’s honestly more fun being a damage scout.
Amazing guide my dude! I love playing Scout in both MvM and PvP, but I always thought something wasn't quite clicking when going damage Scout. Always heard full resistances first and so on, but I've now reached a perfect upgrade system of speed first, the glitched firing for the Soda Popper, damage/clip size and a few ticks in jump depending on credits left. I don't usually need to upgrade resistances to full now, most of the time I leave them in two ticks (even in last wave!) because I've been dodging much better since I started using the Soda Popper and using the upgraded speed to it's full potential.
It's also been great at carrying teams when our Medic was utter wank, which has led me to use the Mad Milk in a much smarter way and not just throwing it around just because. Also, popping the Meds feels absolutely amazing!
This is how I would normally play scout but people will kick me for not focusing money
Since money collection is a passive ability, you should still be able to get A's easily even without "focusing" on it. Missed money is usually the fault of multiple people, so be sure to point out the other offenders if anyone complains. Heck, if all else fails, just wildly cast accusations. :D
"Why didn't anyone call out where that pile was?"
"Must have been tank money... make sure to get it all next time, guys."
"The bomb was on the other side of the map. If you're going to not play the objective, at least pick up your own money."
"Kill more robots, and maybe I'll be able to reach it next time without instantly dying. It would probably help if the Heavy bought Crit Resistance instead of Health Regen."
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel thanks, keep up the good work on the videos, I learn a lot from them
If you still get kicked a lot try playing on a community server. They are less likely to kick you than on valve’s own MVM servers.
@@nicolasrage1104 I don't get kicked anymore now since I now meet people that kick me for not going scout
Wow, I just found this channel. I saw the subscriber and view count and was surprised. These are very, very good guides.
This was extremely helpful. I did the mad milk fan strat yesterday and it worked pretty well. Now I’m gonna see how this one does
I was in the mood to play mvm and tried this, and i loved the experience using this guide, it was more fun and id say much more efficient!
i really love how direct you are
What an incredibly well made video, i wholeheartedly agree with everything you said and hate too see that scout is still The Money Tank. Hell theres still people that think spy and sniper are useless... Anyways love what you do, you deserve way more recognition!
I just got this in my recommendation and after watching wow I thought you would have more subs we need to give this man more subs
Thank you so much for this guild, I knew I was doing something wrong with scout
One thing I came back to add: because crits ignore damage ramp up as well as falloff, crit boosting a scout for the tank isn't nearly as powerful as crit boosting a soldier or pyro, since the ramp up for scatterguns is 75%. Crits will only increase meat shot damage by about 80% instead of 200% like you might expect. Mini crit boosts, however, do work as expected.
100% true, although the Shortstop is slightly different than the other guns, for some reason...
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel what's also great about the shortstop is I guess the game treats it as a pistol so random crits apply to successive hits
Thank you for explaining the score as I was confused on how I dealt twice the damage my Engie did but somehow scored less.
these are the best guides for mvm on youtube.
I know I’m a year late on this, but it’s important to mention that you can give a firing speed upgrade to the soda popper which helps significantly with DPS. I’d recommend anyone reading this to look it up, as it’s incredibly simple to do.
This is an exploit. While I'm not really anti-exploit per se, the purpose of this video series is mostly to teach competence within the bounds of regular gameplay, so it's sort of outside the scope. Thanks for mentioning it, though.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel reasonable, but the exploit is so easy to do (and also so exclusive to the soda popper for some reason) that you could just mention the steps in passing. makes you 25% more efficient with your gun, so yuh
Just wanna say I appreciate these couple of guides you've made. Will be looking forward to more, perhaps the medic next?
I regret to say that The Medic will most likely be the very last video of the series. One reason is that, since The Medic almost purely a Support class, knowledge of how all of the other classes work is a prerequisite, so The Medic is logically one of the last classes that a player should learn. Another is that I actually have very little playtime as The Medic, so I still have to earn the right to even make that video.
Do a guide on Sniper next. When fully upgraded, the Hitman's Heatmaker is a laser cannon of doom that shreds through everything... assuming you have a team to draw fire for you, that is.
i love the narration at the begining
Very high quality for such a small channel
You didn't mention it but unless they change it recently. The Sandman ball "mark for death" upgrade also functions for its base attack, as in you can just wack a robot like you have a fan of war and it works the same.
As far as I know, that still works, and I didn't intend to imply otherwise. My main issue with the Sandman is that the upgrade is very expensive, and the health reduction is probably not a fair tradeoff for the extra damage compared to the Fan O' War.
Someone reminded me that you can/could moonshot Giants with it, which can be/was situationally very powerful. That's something unique to the Sandman that I neglected to cover in the video.
This is a great MvM tutorial for the scout with many good points, tips, tactics, and could also be named, “The money master bot killing bonk boy”
Great video that explains how scouts don't have to sacrifice anything to deal good damage.
My only gripe is how badly jump height was disrespected. It's a measly $300 and lets you completely avoid splash damage and jump over giants' heads. After the very first time I tried playing with it I have never gone without it, it's so much better than it sounds like it would be on paper.
"maybe they're playing on the wrong difficulty level" I felt that. I can't tell you how many times I've been in EXPERT mode and seen people who've literally never played before and get angry when you criticize them.
That's just the worst. I got bored with winning nightmare by myselfas sniper so I went to expert and first thing I see was 4 f2p, with no idea what to do, getting rolled every time.
this video is great and my mind blown,i was surprise this video don’t gain a lot view it should
Years ago I used to play as the 'meta' scout and overall was a general pain to work with. One session I saw someone upgrading their guns instead of their resistances and of course as the rude person I was, I quickly criticized them. I was ignored.
Afterwards that person not only collect the majority of the cash, they out damaged me and out supported everyone else. I tried out their playstyle for myself after and I ultimately learned that building the Scout as a Duelist was far more effective and much more fun to play. I lightened up as a person after that day.
Scout or Spy are my go-to classes for carrying inexperienced players. Scout having great damage against tanks and being decent at everyone else along with this high mobility helps focus damage to different locations on the map.
Then Spy for teams that simply cannot deal with giant meds and a lousy medic so I can draw aggro away from them.
I heard the basic idea that "Damage Scout" can be good before, this was definitely another level of detail on that though.
Although I like to play Scout as a dodge-tank in MVM that absorbs all the money- this video taught me a lot of useful things I didn't know! To all the high-tours out there, you don't have to be a slave to the meta. Play what you want, just make sure your team comp can actually win the waves.
i just came to ask when the next guide is coming out after all
it's the high light of this channel
Hopefully this summer.
The guides have been coming out roughly every six months (by accident, not planned). I've been working on the channel a lot more than usual lately, but it was more in service of adding additional videos instead of accelerating the release of the guides.
I kinda want to share my experience when I played scout MVM first time years ago:
Gets movement speed and primary upgrades first, I got trash talked cause "get resistance first". I want to get healed by med for overheal, they say collect money but I cant cause its a sea of robots. Missed an A+, team literally sucks, Got kicked not long after.
I improved my skills and i get usually praised by my team now.
A few takes and tips I wanted to list off since this is probably still getting a lot of views
-If you want to use the Force-a-Nature, consider equipping one of the pistols (Maybe not the Winger) so you can contribute without pissing off your team. Use the FaN against small robots when you know one/two shots will kill them, and giants once their health gets low enough to kill them in one clip's worth of shots. Or when 1v1ing giants or small groups. It's also the most reliable scattergun for dropping uber medics with meatshots if the opportunity arises.
-I'd argue that upgrading jump height does a better job in avoiding blast damage than blast resistance does in most cases. Especially if you're running the Soda Popper.
-If you're playing with another scout(s), try to check his health before running for money. If he's low and you're high, let him take it. It's also worth considering getting some defensive upgrades sooner if you're with another scout(s).
-The Back Scatters accuracy penalty is less severe on custom servers with random spread disabled. Inversely the Shortstops effective range is even longer without random spread.
-Crit-a-Cola pairs pretty well with the Shortstop for plinking at crowds at longer ranges if you can't practically flank them (and live). I think crit res. reduces the damage from being marked too. And being able to pre-emptively deploy it means it doesn't fall off in the mid-late game like the fan does.
my mind exploded, when someone on expert suddenly suggested to go with 5 shortstop scouts, and it worked.
Very nice guide. Though I will also point out another trick up scout's sleeve- he can block giant medics. There are some cases (eg 20:35 of this video) where the giant's pocket rounds the corner, and you can stand in front of the giant medic for a bit while damaging him. I've worked with crummy boot camp lobbies before- this trick saved me several times where we didn't have any good pick classes. Worst scenario you have to break away and the medic can't catch up to the pocket in time.
Any class can do that, though. Sometimes The Scout can be very good at it because he can have high overheal and is not an explosive class, but not always. I remember an old steam guide that used to recommend blocking giants as a disguised Spy.
I've toyed with the idea of adding a 10th bonus video to the guide series of more class-agnostic stuff. We'll see.
the scout’s overheal on money collection and larger collection radius exists for a reason
So scout can do dmg easily
so scout can be a sustainable and strong source of damage for experienced players.
do you really think that valve intended scout to play the game by not attacking the robots and just collecting money?
Thanks for the guide, i manage to save a lot of game by destroying giant scout and tank first. I got top 1 damage scout in recent rewired rampage event lol
23:13 Thanks, I needed to hear this. Got yelled at yesterday for literally turning around to kill a spy instead of collecting money that had only just appeared 2 seconds ago, and have been blamed for not getting A+'s in the past, despite contributing a lot damage-wise. The money is indeed a team effort!
Do you play on Valve servers or Community Servers? Whenever I play on a community server 99% of the time I don’t have to worry about being kicked or yelled at. If you want to be extra safe see if there’s a Lazy Purple MVM server in your area. They usually have 10 players instead of 6, so you can mess around more and experiment, without worrying about dragging down the team.
Ah, finally some useful mvm guides. Though I was wondering, in some cases I have to 1v1 giants as scout (giant scouts breaking through, some stray giant soldiers, yeah, usually happens upon some messups), what way would be more effective, just shooting the guy, or first whack him with fan and then shoot? I usually tend to stick with the latter, but was wondering perhaps the mini-crits don't give much of an advantage and stuff due to spending some time to approach the bot and whack instead of spending that time shooting.
Although, probably I've missed something, I've used to upgrade speed and damage first (soda popper) when ping is more or less comfortable, and so, does upgrading damage or clip capacity first have that big of an impact, or that's mostly down to preference?
Don't fan. It's very dangerous and makes you waste damage if there aren't teammates, the only giants that is good to fan are bosses and giants in the first 2 (of 6) waves that you're killing with your team.
If you are the only person shooting a giant robot, I'd just shoot without fanning. I don't think it's a big difference either way in terms of theoretical DPS, and switching to Fan is one extra step that can go wrong. It's not even worth the brainpower to make the decision. That's why I only advocate for the Fan in situations where it is obviously going to be worth it (bosses or other solo giants). Otherwise, there are too many variables affecting the Fan's effectiveness, and it's hard to tell how useful it's going to be at any given moment.
And... it appears you've caught an error in the video. I (and others) have always assumed that x2 Clip Size was first priority for the Soda Popper (it is for the Force-a-Nature), but it seems like the Soda Popper's +25% reload stat actually messes with that assumption. Based on testing, there is almost no difference to overall DPS between Damage First and Clip Size first, and the optimal strategy may actually be to alternate between them: First of each, second of each, third of each, etc. And yes, preference and situation do weigh in as factors.
Once again, none of this affects the Force-a-Nature.
I wish UA-cam still allowed annotations...
Ah, I see, thanks! I kind of used to whack giants with the fan outta habit since I kinda used to be the "meta" scout (Usually my most played class in 4 tours of 2c that I have). Kind of started experimenting with stuff after hanging around potato's.
And yeah, youtube's annotation removal was quite a dumb move. All for phones, huh?
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel wait until you hear about the +10% firerate ghost upgrade you can get with both weapons
I know about it, though I hadn't back when I made this video in 2020.
Still probably wouldn't have made the video, though, since it's firmly in the "exploit" category.
I don't mind exploits that much, depending on the context, but they're sort of beyond the scope of these videos. The goal is to teach gameplay, not cheese.
This was a very eye opening video that pretty much summed up my underlying confusion on why "meta" scout is so highly regarded. One question though- what's a quick, 2-sentence maximum description of why upgrading my scattergun of choice is worth the cash, that will persuade my team mates to not kick me?
I've come across a lot of teams that question my upgrade choices and I don't want to spend extreneous amounts of time individually explaining in each server I go to.
How about something like, "I like to play Scout, but I got tired of losing waves on servers where the damage classes were noobs. Shooting the robots myself fixed the problem."?
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel already binded to my period key- thanks :)
As the video says, it's basically a relic of a bygone era - support scout originated back in a time where players were less skilled and the average team was an engie, a scout, a demo, and three heavies or two heavies as a pyro. No buff banner, no medic, and lots of the two classes that synergize best with milk and the fan o' war.
Even in that situation it's still optimal to upgrade offensively and actually shoot your gun, mind you, but still, back then Scout provided a surprisingly considerable amount of support compared to today, where Soldier and especially Medic in meta teams make it extremely redundant.
Given how slow the MvM mann up community is to accept change, even after such a playstyle ceased to be useful the archetype remained, in spite of its general ineffectiveness.
should have mentioned how the sandman’s ball mark for death also translates to the weapon itself. you can still mark with normal melee hits. while the upgrade can be costly, the sandman also does not suffer from a damage penalty. the overheal you gain from collecting money effectively nullifies the health downside.
Meta Slave: “No! You can’t just upgrade your primary and outdamage me throughout the mission!”
Underscore: “haha soda popper go pow-pow”
0:00 this IS like football match
I play mvm for fun. I sometimes spend money for some sick loot but that's it. It doesn't matter if I fail cuz I'm probably on boot camp, and I knew that that was a risk. I hate toxic mvm players because they don't understand that it's just a game. Loved the vid btw, I'll try and incorporate it into the way I play scout.
Crafted the Soda popper
First time ever crafting
All cause MVM and I heard it's fun in normal
Edit: Thanks for the guide! Helped a bunch on my way to playing scout MVM
Love your vids. Can you do a video on pyro and sniper in mvm?
That was a beautiful intro
Just had a game where my team flamed me for missing 25 money and guess what, the money was right in front of the engineer upstairs in Manhattan while I was dealing with some stragglers.
this mindset of "the scout is the only class to collect money" is most definitely responsible for 75% of the money that people actually miss, because two cities players suck major ass at mvm
Hol up, you only have 300?!?! WE MUST RECOMMEND YOU SO YOU CAN GET MORE SUBS!!!
That's a good wisdom!
I watched this 10 minutes before my friend was like "Wanna try ghost town?" As my first MVM game. And I found myself rarely use the fan-o-war. I only use that after I reminded myself "Don't forget the fan-o-war"
I win ghost town as my first MVM boot camp game.
In ghost town you generally kill giants faster than you need to fan them and also because most teams have a 24/7 buff banner.
Honestly, I've been playing sort of like this even with the support scout upgrades. Even if I don't upgrade it, I'm pretty much shooting robots whenever I could when I'm not actively throwing Milk or marking a Giant.
Hey, could you do a video about the most effective tank-killing loadouts with data comparisons? Phlog > Beggars > Scatterguns, but I'm kind of curious to see how things like the quirky Carbine + Bushwhacka combo or Demoman and Heavy would compare.
Unfortunately, it's not very high on my to-do list. There's a lot of decent information about this out there already. I usually consult that body of knowledge myself, and only verify it when necessary. But really, it's more complicated than just base DPS. There are a lot of situational factors to consider: upgrade level, ammo availability, crit or mini-crit boosting, presence or absence of robots, etc.
Off the top of my head, in general, Beggar's and Phlog are so close to being tied for best that the difference really doesn't matter. The Scatterguns are only like 10-20% behind them. Heavy and Demoman are very close in terms of steady DPS (I consider them "average" at killing tanks), but Demoman gets a lot more of a boost from Kritzkrieg and has the added benefit of being able to store up damage by laying traps before tanks spawn. Carbinewhacka is just about as good as the Scatterguns are on paper, but it requires a specific loadout and diverts upgrades away from your rifle, so it occupies a weird place between a fun loadout and a serious loadout. Two other weird, niche strategies that nobody ever talks about are Equalizer Soldier and Warrior's Spirit Heavy. It's dangerous if there are robots around, but an Equalizer with no upgrades can do about as much damage as a Rocket Launcher with 2000 credits of upgrades... and doesn't need ammo.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel what about tank buster engie? Maxed out widow maker basically a never ending ammo machinegun.
The Engineer is hard to measure as a tank-buster, since his DPS will always depend on whether or not the tank is in range of his sentry. The Widowmaker is definitely good against tanks, but it's limited by the fact that it does not have a Damage upgrade, so it needs to be paired with Sentry Damage to truly shine. Without running extensive tests, I think it can surpass the Phlog/Bazooka/Scatterguns/etc. for short bursts of time, but then once the Sentry needs to be moved or reloaded, it gets more complicated. This is true of basically any Engineer tank-busting strategy, and it's probably impossible to give a definitive answer due to things like differences in map layout, Sentry Busters, etc.
. ah ok, makes sense. Though if you got crit canteens or even a kritz medic, it could be on par with scatterguns or maybe better. The answer may not be definitive but it's definately a viable strat if the team isn't garbo.
Finally. Some good fucking guides.
It feels like Scout was originally designed to be one of the primary fighters in an MVM team.
Think about it: he has fast respawn which allows him to stay in the fight even if he dies, crazy burst damage, he benefits a lot from movement speed, guaranteed passive overheal, he sucks up money like a vacuum which encourages him to be up close and personal with the robots, alongside a strong support and anti-Super Scout option in the form of the Mad Milk.
He just has all the ingredients for a powerful fighter, but the Two Shitties meta and Demo mains with branches shoved so far up their asses that they stick out of their mouths (mouths which would be better used for blowing than speaking anyways) who also can't contribute to the team without a kritzkrieg medic pressured his playerbase into just a money bitch, a literal gold digger.
Pretty good video
The fan o war can be useful for new players too, it is not like it has a passive downside. The atomizer does NOT replace jump height since the main use for jump height is dodging in the middle of combat.
Of course the Fan O' War has no downside in its *_stats_* . My complaint is that, if you tell new players that a weapon is important, they *_will_* spam it. Spamming the Fan O' War is pointless and distracts them from more important things like killing robots, milking robots, money collection, etc. The fundamental problem is the opportunity cost of wasted effort. Wasted effort can really hurt team that only has 6 players, and all of the wasted effort associated with the "Meta" Scout playstyle is perhaps the greatest weakness of the Two Cities "meta".
It's funny that some people think *_shooting_* distracts The Scout from collecting money but seem to have no problem with Scouts who spam M1 with the Fan out. You can run in one direction to pick up cash while shooting in a completely different direction, but a melee weapon like the Fan requires you to charge right at your target.
Opinion of tacobot? Btw good guide. The tips and things that you said in this guide are very correct and are helpful to new players. One thing that i do instead of just upgrading the gun until midwave is upgrading 1 point of resistance with 1 point of clip size or damage.
I was only briefly on a server with a tacobot account once before (so I assume I am already on their banlist, lol), but, from what I gather ,they are a toxic group and their blacklist criteria are stupid. Even if their intentions were nobler (e.g. only blacklisting aimbotters, belligerent idlers, etc.), such behavior is not indicative of psychologically-healthy individuals.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel it was gergez? He is saying that you support aimbotters and you play with them (they said you're friends with i cri everytime)
@@treynonger7806 I joined a server with a tacobot guy a couple weeks ago. It is probably the one you say Because of tacobot's bad reputation, I took the other players' accusations that he was sitting and refusing to play in good faith. They invited me to another server with a friend request. I accepted, but after a few waves it became clear to me that one of the other players had aimbot. I disconnected, reported, and unfriended. I highly dislike aimbotters. Even though many people tolerate them in MvM because "it's just against bots", I play for fun and not loot. Aimbotters are not conducive to fun, to say the least.
Anyway, I believe that attempting to privately police a public co-op game mode is a doomed enterprise, and the way that this person subjectively interpreted my actions that day only strengthens that conviction for me.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel Do pyro guide btw. It would make pyro more interesting to play with and help make people not kick pyros (even if they are good).
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel They seem like the people in other PVP games that always blame their team mates when they lose, or find 1 convenient scapegoat as an excuse to justify themselves. They focus on attacking other people instead of improving themselves.
Scout: *plays a MVM game*
The back scatter: "it's my time to shine!"
This dude said Quin-two-ple
Bwahahahaahha liquid skill, thats a great one!
Hey, have you considered using that feature that splits your video into parts to segment your videos?
No, I hadn't. I looked up how to do it just now, and added it to the Tutorial Series videos. Thanks for the tip!
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel It looks great! Now it's a lot easier to hop over to the upgrade section when I'm feeling forgetful.
14:51 The gibusvision pyro has the right idea.
Money, Shoot, Milk, Shoot, Mark, Shoot.
for me scout's milk was useful as a spy in earlier waves when i had no regen yet, instead of looking for hp i could start attacking doused giant and get all hp back
Thanks for making this i love scout but didnt just want him to be the money and semen guy i like violence too and it seemed like a damaged focused scout would be hard (i blame that weezy video about subclasses) but this dont seem too bad now i can violence (also im still using the fan o war minicrits mean faster violence)
Man a understand and agree that the meta scout playstyle is not effective but do you know of a way to be a support scout and still be effective, if not than that's ok, great video.
The best way to be effective at Support Scout is to:
1. Use Mad Milk to maximum effect (when healing is actually needed).
2. Use Fan O War to maximum effect (against giants).
3. Shoot as much as possible when not using Milk or Fan.
4. Pay attention to Money, but don't obsess over it.
5. Call out locations of threats to teammates (i.e. Scout).
It helps if there are at least 2 Heavies and/or Pyros on your team, and neither of them is getting pocketed by a Medic.
The problem is, there are simply some team balances and some maps/missions that are not conducive to having even one Support player, and if somebody insists on playing Medic, then Scout makes two. The worst-case scenarios where Support Scout is really bad are usually something like two-bomb-path maps on missions with lots of tanks and with giants coming from two different directions, on a team that already has a Kritz Medic and Buff Banner Soldier (making Mad Milk and Fan O War largely redundant). Class balance is usually the biggest problem on official missions, though, since none of the official maps or missions are that bad for Support Scout or even very hard to begin with. Custom maps/missions can get pretty brutal, though. I don't think that I've ever seen a team beat Expert Doppler with a Support Scout.
you deserve more attention
I watched this guide a while ago, basicly forgot about it and moved on. Yeterday i played some bootcamp with a pretty bad team as scout. Our credit score was far from ideal but i did xonsistabtly have the damage output of almoste very other class.
I do feel like the soda poper is also just better due to the firing speed upgrade bug.
There was that one custom mission that had a tank that had to be meleed. We failed the first try, then I fully maxed out the stock bat swing speed and we won
Yes, those melee tanks. Fortunately, the gimmick tanks tend to not have very high health.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel Which is good in my opinion. Fun fact: on the first try, we didn't have a medic, so a player blamed the fact that we lost because we had no medic. Then when we beat the tank, I kept saying (as a joke) that the max swing speed stock bat saved us from all disasters
Money, Milk, Mark and Maim
16:54 I once saw a thread on a discussion forum about "Why can't stock flamethrower pyros solo tanks?". A man answered "Stock flamethrower pyro, like all classes needs some help against tanks." Someone answered "Why?". He said "Because the stock flamethrower does not have self-sustaining triple damage duh"
a good scout can rotate to giant. especially heavy.
Good good. I'm glad I wasn't doing anything wrong
Soo after a while of mvm: I like scouts like this, but i have a really hard time understanding the money collecting part. Money collecting is a team effort, i totally agree, but as an engi for example when should i collect it? If you have a scout dedicated to money collecting, then money doesn't exist in your dimension. But if scout have no bullet/blast resistance, then you push it closer to death, and somethimes he is just off dealing dmg for some second.
I wish I could see any game where the scout collect all the money cuz some people kill and leave it for scout to clean its so frustrating when the is that 1 dollar you can't get cuz someone killed a bot in corner of the map and you don't know
Hey Underscore, I feel like it might be good to mention ghost-upgrading firing speed for the Soda Popper in the errata.
I'll think about it, but these videos aren't really meant to teach exploiting.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel that's fair
In my opinion the meta should be a half offense half support so you should use short stop bassicly max the milk and then movement speed and jump heigth then try to upgrade shortstop use it to figth but still Mark and milk targets(Mark the giants
He already stated in the video that that isn't very efficient. You don't need milk 24/7 when most of the benefits come from mainly giants and a conch soldier can do the same job. Same thing with the fan
I will say one thing you missed, when the shortstop rolls random crits the ENTIRE CLIP gets random crits, which is amazing especially later on when you get 12 crits in a row all for 300 damagr
Technically, it's not per clip, it's timing (2 seconds). Just like miniguns and flamethrowers.
I *think* that this does, in fact, result in more critical shots on average than the non-rapidfire scatterguns, but I don't really feel like doing the math right now.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel that would make more sense actually
Begins by telling meta players to fuck off. I already like this video a lot.
3:06 can you make the background black so I can read the text?
My bad. Yeah, there are about 10 words that aren't really legible at even the best resolutions. Unfortunately, I can't fix it after the video's been uploaded. I'll try to add it to the description.
This guy is underrated as fuck dude
Hello Underscore gaming i find it difficult to balance these to aspects of scout how do I do this?
Focus on shooting robots. If you do that successfully, the money will come automatically. Save Milk for the ends of lulls and for major targets. There's not much else to balance than that.
Don't upgrade your scattergun first. Upgrade speed. Faster you are, easier it is to do every role you may have elected to fulfill: money, milk, marking, damage, tank busting, med picking, basically everything but aoe.
Other than the obvious bias toward damage scout, this is perfect. Just a reminder, what makes scout strong is his high aptitude for single target damage AND support. A damage scout may be effective, but that support role you aren't filling mught be the reason why your team is bitching at you.
what is the difference of mann up in boot camp in terms of map?
Boot Camp servers are not run by Valve, so they often have mods to make the game easier/sillier.
Other than that, it's mainly a cultural difference. Boot Camp servers tend to have less skilled players than Mann Up, though not always.
@@UnderscoreGamingChannel the thing was you need tickets to play on boot camp though.
I like the damage scout play style but when I’m playing the other classes it can actually kinda hurt cuz we aren’t getting hp from mad milk or extra damage from fan or money so it’s more of a side play style in my own experience.
I've never even noticed a difference from lack of Mad Milk except when I've been playing as The Heavy or The Pyro and then The Scout switched off to another class for the last wave when there was no Medic. Obviously, a Scout that has Mad Milk but isn't spamming it as much is a less-dramatic difference than no Scout at all. And, of course, there are Scouts that are just so good at killing robots that they do a better job at keeping The Heavy alive by drawing aggro than Mad Milk ever could.
It's hard to notice lack of Fan O'War, since most Scouts don't even use it properly.
Damage Scout collects money, sometimes even better than "meta" Scout does. I don't see what the problem is there.
I usually play expert a lot and there especially I can really feel that lack of milk because there usually isn’t a medic on expert. I can also really feel the lack of mark for death especially when I play with competent teams with competent scouts that mark effectively.
imagine prioritizing your puny damage instead of actually being helpfull to the team